The Rich Roll Podcast - Roll On: The Art Of Memoir

Episode Date: May 26, 2022

Welcome to another edition of ‘Roll On’, wherein Rich Roll and journalist & author Adam Skolnick riff on matters of interest across sports, culture, entertainment, and self-betterment.  Today we dissect top headlines from the world of endurance, celebrate the 10-year anniversary of Rich’s book Finding Ultra, and talk about what makes an impactful memoir. NOTE: This episode was recorded one day PRIOR to the Uvalde school shooting, so this topic is not discussed. Specific topics discussed in today’s episode include: the murder of star gravel cyclist Moriah ‘Mo’ Wilson ; the upcoming sub-7-hour Ironman triathlon project; advice from 90-year-old runners; pop star Cody Simpson making the Aussie World Championship Swimming Team; and what Rich learned about writing, publishing, life, and success on the 10th anniversary of Finding Ultra. Today’s episode is also viewable on YouTube: https://bit.ly/rollon682 Peace + Plants, Rich

The Rich Roll Podcast. Hey everybody, welcome to Roll On. We're an athlete slash podcaster slash writer and a journalist slash author slash mask wearing shark lover. Rip headlines from the internet and real world life and wax on matters of interest, try to make sense of the world. Today, we've got a few interesting matters to unpack,

but the thrust of today is celebrating that little book that you're reading right there, Adam. What are you reading? Oh, are we on? Is this live? Is this we on? Is this live? Is this thing live? Is this a hot mic? This is.

I'm reading this great memoir. It's captivating. I think you should check it out. Actually, you're reading the first version before I revise it. First edition, baby. You need to read this one, I think. Oh, really?

Is that the better version? This is better. Yes. So I have the first version and it's signed by the author. Adam, let's hit the point soon. Thanks for being you my friend. Is that the one that I gave you

when we did our first podcast together? It is, it is. I had a Kindle copy and then you sent me this one or you gave me this one. I'm glad that you still have it. Yeah, man. When I did the New York Times story on you for backstory, yes, I wrote a rich role in New York Times sports story.

I reread it and love it, of course. I appreciate that. Yeah, man. You being on Roll On is just me paying you back for that New York Times story. That was the deal that we struck. Has it been that useful for you? No, it was great.

That was in the wake of... No, it came out in the wake of it. Right, yeah. But we did the research prior. That one never made the print edition though. Listen, man. I'm still grinding on that. I just work here.

Anyway, good to see you, my friend. Glad to be back in the podcast studio with you. And yes, we're gonna talk about Finding Ultra. Why are we talking about Finding Ultra? Because this week marks the 10th anniversary of this book. So I thought it would be fun to celebrate that a little bit. Have a little peek through the rear view. I'm having trouble talking today.

Anyway, yeah, we're gonna have a little discussion about the art of memoir and just writing in general. And I think it's gonna be cool. But before that, how goes it my friend? It's good. I have been- See, you just said you were good. Well, I know.

You said, people are complaining that every time I ask you how you're doing, you say you're good. No, they did complain. And then you just said you were good. Well, I know. You said, people are complaining that every time I ask you how you're doing, you say you're good. No, they did complain. And then you just did it again. They did complain, and then I came up with my hijinks, my intro hijinks, and then, but then the intro hijinks got- Just pivoted back to your-

Yeah, so then I went back to my muscle. But to be honest- How are you doing really? If you really wanna know, I've been deep in the deadline cave and I have a deadline beard to show for it. You do, it looks good. If you're not watching.

I think you should just continue with the beard. Now it's moved past the growing down and out and it's moved into the round phase. So I'm dangerously close to having a half circle of hair that just arcs around my face. I know the feeling. That's why I just shaved mine off because it was in Chia Pet stage. Yeah, that's where I'm at.

It's jowly. It's real jowly. It gets good when it gets long enough where you can kind of bring it down. Yeah. But that's a full commitment. When I shaved mine the other day, I thought about keeping the mustache.

Yeah. I was this close. That would have been pretty. And I shaved mine the other day, I thought about keeping the mustache. I was this close. That would have been pretty. And I chickened out. I'm actually thankful I'm not staring at a mustache right now. That would be hard to. It's distracting.

Nobody needs that. But this is a deadline beard. It's kind of like a cousin to the hockey playoff beard. Shout out to my brothers and sisters up in Canada. Not that there's anything wrong with playoff beards. I like playoff beard. Shout out to my brothers and sisters up in Canada. Not that there's anything wrong with playoff beards. I like playoff beards. I used it once in Nicaragua when I was on a lonely planet jag, a deep, I'd done like back to back to back lonely planet assignments. And the last one was in Nicaragua and they get, it was me and one other writer and he lived in Guatemala.

So he had first choice and he picked all the places that tourists actually go. And then three quarters of the geographic region of Nicaragua where tourists never go, he gave to me. So I was like literally like in the jungles. I mean, it was great stuff. I loved being out there, but like, I don't know that anybody will ever have used my material for much. I mean, maybe Peace great stuff. I loved being out there, but like, I don't know that anybody will ever have used my material for much.

I mean, maybe Peace Corps volunteers have used it, but by the time I got to the jungles, I was like so whacked that like, I just couldn't shave. I'd like, my nails were growing. I was like a beast. And I showed up in a Costa Rica hotel two days before my flight home and at like Christmas time and went to the check-in desk and they thought that they did not look happy to see me.

Do you have photographic evidence of this? I don't know. I think I must. You should throw that up on Instagram. I must, I must. On Thursday when this goes out as a companion piece. Well, you know, it's- I need a visual.

Yeah, it's 10 years since I've joined Instagram. So we both have 10 years. Congratulations. I thought you'd like that. We can all lament that. But I have been just writing and making oatmeal for Zuma in the mornings and then doing some running.

I'm 75 miles into that 100 mile challenge we spoke about last time for Give Back Homes. The Give Back Homies sent us some running. I'm 75 miles into that 100 mile challenge we spoke about last time for Give Back Homes. The Give Back Homies sent us some hats. And I've been swimming like once a week. I need to swim more. My swulf is suffering. What is swulf, by the way? I've never heard that before.

You never heard of swulf? Stroke? It's like a stroke score that like comes up on my garment. Oh, I have no idea. I don't pay attention to that stuff. No? No, I'm a purist naturalist when it comes to swimming. You swim naked?

I have, not recently. But yeah, with all the kind of data metrics on swimming, I mean, I wear a Garmin so that I can keep track of my yardage and time and stuff like that. But I don't look at cadence or any of the other metrics that it tracks. Doesn't bother you. It doesn't matter.

Your stroke rate doesn't even register for you. I've just been doing it so long that I don't rely upon that for anything meaningful. Just feel. Yeah. I like it. What does that stand for even? You know what?

I thought you would know. No, I don't know. Swolf. Maybe this is why swimmers are so much faster would know. No, I don't know. Swolf. Maybe this is why swimmers are so much faster now than they were when I was coming up. It's a combination of stroke count and time taken in the water and is often used as a measure for your swimming efficiency. So how much forward propulsion are you getting per stroke? Yeah. Kind of. Yeah. Yeah. I get it. That's helpful. Maybe I should look at that.

You seem like a guy that would, you'd probably have a really good swivel. That would mean that I need to be swimming, which I'm not right now. How are you? What's going on? What's going on with you? Oh, man.

Adam. Yeah, talk to me, bro. The back is not good. What's going on? Which is one reason why we're not gonna do a check-in with Chris Halt today. It's really painful right now. If I try to do anything physical the next day,

I have a real struggle. So first of all, we shared a couple of weeks ago about this. I was just inundated with emails and DMs from people. So I appreciate everybody's sort of sympathy and concern. That means a lot. It also came with a lot of recommendations. A lot of, you know, check out this guy, here's my protocol,

here's how I solved my back problem. And that's great. I have to sift through it and figure out what else I can or should be doing beyond the protocol that I'm currently engaged in because I'm not experiencing any kind of relief. If I do nothing, then it's a little bit better. But I was in DC the other weekend visiting my parents

and I had a little speaking gig. I couldn't resist the temptation of going out for a jog. DC is such a great city to run in. The weather was perfect. So I thought, all right, I'm just gonna do the slowest run ever, like almost a walk, like a really gentle jog, just so I can cruise around the mall, which I did.

And I was very grateful to be able to do. And I felt okay while I was doing it. I didn't do anything hard. I didn't push myself at all. And the next day I was like, I couldn't sit up in bed. Really? Yeah. And I haven't been back to the pool. So I'm pretty much benched right now and it's challenging.

It's much easier for me to train. The physical exertion is so tied to my mental health that I'm not happy about it, but this is where I'm at right now until I figure out a path forward that is got some daylight at the end of it. So I'm confident. Is it a herniated disc type situation?

No, it's not. It's spondy. My L4 protrudes about a centimeter towards my gut, like forward, it's out of alignment. And it puts pressure on the nerves that have created a lot of foot pain and some numbness in my left foot and just general discomfort. And I think the muscles that surround my spine

are working so hard to keep it all intact that they just get really tense. So, and like your back, unlike like if my shoulder was bothering me, I could go running. If my knee was bothering me, I could go swimming. But with this, every which way that you move is impacted by your back, obviously.

So I literally can't do anything without pain. So even if I sit for an extended period of time, like at the end of this podcast, when I go to stand up, I can't stand up straight. So not great, but given that I can't run, I still can rock the new Solomon Collab. You still got the runner's calves. Those are from my mom.

Those are there no matter what. You've always had them. Yeah, it's all show no go, Adam. But these are the new Solomon CLA collaboration shoes. Looking good. Some kind of weird leopard print. I don't know exactly what that is, but pretty dope, right? Yeah, those are dope.

Pretty stylish. I love them. I remember you posted about all the different collabs. They all look great. Solomon, you know what? It's all about collabs. Solomon, I'm running on Solomon's right now. Good, you should be. I would take it personally if you weren't. Don't make this weird, Rich.

But yeah, no, I love those. I don't have the fancy new collab Solomon's. Right, yeah. They don't wanna give those to me. But on the subject of collabs, because collabs is where it's at, I'm thinking what should the RRP collab should be? And then I thought, well, this is a collab.

This is a Roel Skolnick collab. It is. Right here. And it's that sought after. The whole is greater than the sum of its parts. Oh, thank you, thank you. There we go. Thank you for that. But I like our collab. I was gonna ask a zone two question for you

on the subject of running shoes. I've been, I know it's trying to bring your, I've put the spotlight, we put it on you and then I'm bringing it back to me, but I've been zone twoing, you know, back, I'm back since running a bit more this month, swimming less, I got my zone two to under 10 minutes a mile now.

Good. How did you calculate your zone two? Just through my Garmin. Not a reliable methodology. I know, that's all I got. What am I gonna do? Well, there's lots of protocols. I should send you to a lab

and have you do a proper lactate test. Let's do it. Yeah, all right. I'll table- There's a place in Santa Monica if it's still there. I haven't done one in years. I'd love to do that. But I'm getting a lot of questions about zone two. We're getting Dr. Peter Attia on the podcast,

I think in June, right? Oh, cool. We scheduled it. He's quite the authority on zone two. So we're gonna do a deep dive on that. But the proper way to calculate and measure your zone two is to do it in a clinical setting, either on a treadmill or on a stationary bike,

where you basically undergo this protocol. The last time I did it, I brought my bike into a place in Santa Monica. They hook it up to a trainer. You warm up for five or 10 minutes, and then you start at a certain wattage. I think if memory serves me, we started at something really easy, like 100 watts. And every four minutes, you increase the wattage 10 watts, and you have your finger pricked for blood lactate. You calculate your heart rate at that interval point, and you give your perceived effort,

like how hard is this on a scale of one to 10. And then you just keep increasing the wattage until failure. And then you plot those metrics on a graph. And you can see when you get this crazy uptick is where you're going from your anaerobic energy system to your anaerobic energy system. And true endurance is reflected when that upward tick is way down the line in terms of wattage. And instead of like a hockey stick, it's a more gradual curve upwards. And you're always trying to push that uptick out as far to the right as possible.

And it's pretty revealing. Like you think you're fit or you're doing a certain thing and then you get a proper test and you're like, holy shit. Like I go from my aerobic system into my anaerobic system at the snap of a finger when I hit this exertion level.

And the idea is to push that exertion level as far to the right as possible so that that switch from one energy system to the next is sort of protracted as far out in terms of energy expenditure as possible or effort. Well, I look forward, I wanna do that because I'm just so bored at running

like over 10 minute miles. Like it's just, it's like hard to keep doing it. And like, I don't feel like I'm getting, I mean, I am getting a little bit faster, but like at the zone two, but it's like, I wanna be able to be a little faster, you know, so it's like- Well, zone two works.

It takes a lot of time if you're just doing it and doing it and doing it, but you need incredible consistency with it. If you're just running three times a week in your zone two, it's gonna take a lot longer before you can hit a faster pace at that same heart rate. But this is a longer conversation. Okay, let's move back to you.

How's your career in NFL broadcasting going? Yeah, this is hilarious. I tweeted this out the other day. So this guy, Connor Orr, wrote an article for Sports Illustrated entitled 10 Dream Candidates for an NFL Broadcast Booth, where he's reflecting on the Tom Brady deal, the $375 million deal to get Tom Brady in that booth

and thought who else would be good or who would be better? And he lists a bunch of people. And at the very bottom of the article, I get nominated along with Steve Magnus, who was recently on the podcast, that episode hasn't gone up yet. A rotating cast of performance science experts, Steve Magnus, Rich Roll, David Goggins, et cetera.

Those are three good names. So yeah, I mean, I'm honored, but the hilarious and ironic thing is that like, I know anybody who knows me knows I know nothing about football. Trapper, my stepson is an NFL fanatic. He knows everything. So I emailed him this story and I said,

this will give you a good laugh because he knows how little I follow it these days. I mean, you're not a ball sport guy at all. I'm not, no. I'm into the obscure sports. Yeah, you're kind of like, that's why the mustache would work. You're a hipster sports fan.

I am indeed. Yeah. Hipster, is that what it is? I don't know. You're into curling. Yeah, here's, let me just highlight this for the YouTubers. So yeah, Goggins, Goggins would be good. He would be good.

Magnus, Roland Goggins have all written about the source of our internal drive about great leaders and exceptional people. Having them put a coach and a psychiatrist chair during the week would be more instructive to us as a football watching society than a decades removed former player

more interested in catching the red eye. I love how salty he is about the typical broadcast. I know. So yeah, thank the typical broadcast. I know. So yeah, thank you for that. I am touched and honored. Connor Orr. And as I tweeted, although I'm lacking in knowledge,

I'm sure Steve Magnus can bring me up to speed with all his track and field expertise. And I'm sitting by the phone waiting for it to ring. But you'd be asking the Play-by-bay questions like, so how many downs do they get? Right. I'm not that bad. I used to go to Redskins games, now the Washington Football Club.

Can't say that. Can't say that anymore. Growing up, my dad would- Commanders. My dad's a huge football fan. The Washington Commanders. I grew up watching tons of football. And then when I became an adult, I just stopped.

But I love my dad and Lord knows he loves football. Oh, look at that. Anyway. What else? How was DC? It was good. I got to see my folks. Got to do like a little speaking gig there.

And it was the first time that I'd seen them since before the pandemic. So that was good. And yeah, caught a screening here in LA, a blue velvet yesterday, Sunday afternoon, 3.30 screening at the Alamo Draft House in downtown Los Angeles. That's amazing.

Of a blue velvet, which I highly recommend seeing in a real movie theater. I hadn't seen it in like 20 years. Were you the only non-stoned person in the audience? Probably, probably. But interestingly, Timothee Chalamet was there watching the movie as well. Really?

So little only in LA star sighting situation. And then I thought that's pretty cool. Like a teen heartthrob who could be doing anything is catching a 3.30 in the afternoon screening of Blue Velvet. And then I thought a little bit more about it and I thought, well, okay, he's the star of Dune. David Lynch made the first Dune

and Kyle MacLachlan played his character in Dune. So here he is watching Kyle MacLachlan in a David Lynch movie, the guy whose role he's reprising in the latest iteration of Dune. Right. So here he is watching Kyle MacLachlan in a David Lynch movie, the guy whose role he's reprising in the latest iteration of Dune. I thought that was pretty cool. It is cool. Anyway.

It'd been cooler if the guy that played the worm also happened to be there. That's true. Who is that guy? The giant worm. What if like Timothy was there and then the giant worm was like, and then they look at each other like awkwardly

and then they, you know, like it, they don't sit together. This joke's going nowhere. All right, let's take a quick break and we'll be back with some pretty interesting news from the world of obscure hipster sports and endurance. Love it. hipster sports and endurance. Love it. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to

sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care, especially because unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. It's a real problem. A problem I'm now happy and proud to share has been solved by the people at recovery.com who created an online support portal designed to guide, to support, and empower you to find

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And recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. And we're back. So this first story that we're gonna get into, Adam, is bananas. It is. It's the story of Anna Maria Wilson, Mo Wilson,

who was a rising star in cycling and gravel cycling, who was murdered the other day in a story that is, you know, basically deserving of any kind of true crime Netflix series. Yeah. Because the details behind this are just crazy, especially for anybody who follows endurance sports

and particularly the relatively obscure world of gravel cycling, which I do. You follow gravel cycling? A little bit, not super closely, but it's an up and coming sport and it has its stars. And this young woman had just arrived in Austin in preparation for a race. And she was like dominating all year, right?

Yeah, she's been crushing. She's been dominating the sport. And a lot. And she was like dominating all year, right? She was like the star. Yeah, she's been crushing. She's been dominating the sport. And a lot of people are thinking like she's the next coming. Like she's like the best female cyclist in this discipline. 25 years old, she just had quit her day job and was going pro, like full time. So she arrives in Austin, she's staying with a friend and she hooks up with this guy, Colin Strickland,

who is a very successful male gravel cyclist who lives in Austin. They had had a little bit of a dating thing. Colin's, I think, living girlfriend, Caitlin Marie Armstrong, who he's been with for a while. They had a period where they broke up for a couple of weeks. Colin and Mo got together during that period of time, but it was short lived, Mo left.

He got back together with Caitlin. Anyway, while Mo was in town, Colin took her swimming and out to dinner and allegedly dropped her back off at this apartment where Mo was staying with her friend. And later that evening, the friend returns home to discover Mo dead in the apartment.

At this point in time, it appears that all eyes are on Caitlin Marie Armstrong as the alleged perpetrator of this violent act. Not just all eyes, there's a murder warrant. Yeah, there's a murder warrant out for her. And US Marshals are trying to find her. Surveillance cameras have her black Jeep driving right by the house

in the time period surrounding the murder. Colin and Caitlin both have registered firearms. Nine millimeters. And hers is the one they have a very high degree of certainty fired the bullets. Yeah. And there's some evidence of Caitlin's jealousy over Colin's relationship with Mo.

Yes. So much so that I believe there's some less than honest statements that were made to the police about the extent of their relationship. I know Colin had like changed Mo's name and his phone so that Caitlin wouldn't know who he was speaking with or texting. And- Never a good sign.

There's another source that told the police that Caitlin was extremely upset about this relationship and had said some things that turned the police's eye on her as well. So this is a crazy story. Yeah, she said, she's quoted as saying that she wanted to, like a friend of hers tipped the cops that she said

that she wanted to kill Mo, I think. Right, exactly. Yeah. And so this story now has become like a big mainstream story. It's not just a story within the insular world of gravel cycling. There's a New York Times article about it.

The New York Post covered it pretty comprehensively. The Daily Beast covered it. E Online has covered it. At this point in time, we're recording this on Monday. My understanding is that they have not yet picked up Caitlin, like they can't find her at this moment in time. There's an arrest warrant out for her, but she's not in custody.

Tommy Lee Jones and the crew are trying to find her. Exactly. It is. The US Marshals the crew are trying to find her. Exactly. It is the U.S. Marshals. The U.S. Marshals are like on the hunt for her at this very moment. So. This is a yoga teacher who did this. Right, she was a yoga teacher

and Colin and her were, had a business together where they would renovate trailers like Airstreams, I think. And she was also, she's also a real estate agent in Austin. So this is just crazy. By all accounts, Mo is somebody that was pretty beloved. Everybody really adored her. And she had this huge life and career ahead of her and her life was taken.

Shocking. In a violent act of murder. It's just unbelievable. Yeah. So I don't know. What do you make of this? Well, I make of it two things. I don't wanna make, it's just unbelievable. Yeah. So I don't know, what do you make of this? Well, I make of it two things. I don't wanna make, it's not political,

but to me it's like anytime I see a gun story, I think wouldn't it be great if it was harder to get guns? Yeah. Because typically if there was no guns involved, if this was a country like New Zealand or Australia and Caitlin couldn't get the gun, maybe it would have been more like Tanya Harding and Nancy Kerrigan and like a crowbar to the leg and Caitlin couldn't get the gun, maybe it would have been more like Tanya Harding

and Nancy Kerrigan and like a crowbar to the leg or something, but something that she could survive. So I guess that's the only thing I can take away from it other than, it just shows you that you just don't know who people are, because I can't imagine that Colin would have been with somebody that he thought was capable of something like that.

And so that's a little scary. Cause it makes you wonder like, just makes you question what we're all capable of. I had that feeling the other day, not to get it too dark. Like I go from the gun control to dark in their darkness. But I do think we all have a darkness inside us and we all are like every human being is capable of shit. We can't even imagine, I think.

And just a lot of us are a lot better at managing ourselves. And this is obviously somebody who was troubled. So I'm very sorry to hear it and crazy story. And hopefully they find Caitlin and, you know, there's some sort of justice for the families and I feel bad for everyone involved. Colin issued a statement. He basically said, he admitted that they had had

a brief intimate relationship in October of 2021, but that it was over and their relationship is currently or was currently platonic. But there does seem to be some questioning around how honest he's being about the extent of their relationship. I mean, the rage that Armstrong kind of held speaks to something different.

And there is this video evidence here in this e-story. It says, police noted in the affidavit that a surveillance video showed a dark colored SUV bearing a bicycle rack stopped near the home one minute after Wilson entered it. I mean, that's pretty damning. And Armstrong had confronted Moe about dating Strickland, like there was an altercation on some level prior to this.

So there's a bit of a history. So yeah, it's freaking crazy. But it's one thing about being dishonest and running around behind your partner's back. And I'm not saying that that's great behavior, but like, And murdering somebody in Cold Blood. It's like, Colin said that he hadn't talked to Caitlin also since like May 13th or something.

So there obviously there was something before this that was a breakdown. I just feel bad for him. I feel bad for him. I feel obviously horrible for Mo's family. I thought that they have a very classy statement at the end of that Daily Beast story, I think it was, where they're just saying,

as tragic and horrible these events are, please remember who Mo was and she chased her dreams. She had a positive energy and they take heart that people are mourning with them. And, you know, you really can't respond to this any better than that. So kudos to them. I believe there's a GoFundMe set up also

to raise money for the family. Final thing, one of the better articles about this is in the Boston Globe. And there's a piece in it about the person who called the cops who had a relationship with Armstrong and said that Armstrong became furious and was shaking in anger when she was made aware of Strickland's relationship with Wilson. Armstrong told the caller Armstrong was so angry, Armstrong wanted to kill Wilson. Armstrong then proceeded to tell the caller

Armstrong had either recently purchased a firearm or was going to. Right. So that doesn't look good. That's why I say it comes down to access to firearms. Now she probably could have gotten a permit anyway because if she didn't have any background checks, but if you look at, we're not gonna have any background checks, but if you look at,

we're not gonna talk about Buffalo today, but if you look at that situation where that person was red flagged, they had gun control laws, still could get it. It just shows that even those laws aren't enough. And, and cause like nobody would, it's the Gladwell argument. If there were no guns, nobody would be dead.

You know, like it's bottom line. Like he uses that argument with, in his last book about suicide. If you don't have the means to do it, most people would, that impulse would go away and they'd survive. So it's like, he's shown that. And it's the same true with this stuff.

Like the darkness that she felt might have passed if she didn't have a nine millimeter sitting at home. Right, during that rageful moment. Right, so that's not an excuse for her cause she made the, you know, that's, it's a horrible act and I'm not making any excuses, but you know, we can't take that out of this. Sure, so more will be revealed at some point,

the US Marshals are gonna find Armstrong. So this story will continue. And we'll be reporting it here for you folks. Yeah, we will. At, what are we calling it? What's this segment? Our colla, yeah. Like true crime and endurance.

True crime and endurance. Hopefully this is not gonna be a recurring segment of the show. All right, let's move on. To kind of switch gears on this whole thing, there was this piece in the New York Times written by your editor, I believe. Yes, Talia Minsberg, shout out.

These 90 year old runners have some advice for you and it's pretty great. I love it. Like this video of like these old dudes on the track, like throwing it down and interviews and incredible portraits with these elderly people reflecting on their running careers. And I just love this piece.

I think it's great. Like, look at these portraits. Amazing. These guys, you know, guys in their 80s and 90s. 80s and 90s and women. There's like two women that always face off in like in every event or something like that. Just go at it.

I know, I know. And they all basically say, just keep moving, right? That's the idea. Basically, yeah. This woman, Lillian Ashley is 93. She says, I guess you just have to have the love to race, the determination to just do it. I love, there's a consistent thing

when you talk to older people and you ask them questions like this, their answers tend to be do it. I love there's a consistent thing when you talk to older people and you ask them questions like this, their answers tend to be pretty straightforward and simple. It's like, just keep moving. Don't think about it. Just gotta get out and get after it. I think about like the La Jolla Cove has a group of old timers that always swim the Cove and you see them

and sometimes they'll like be limping in and limping out, but then they get in the water and they're like free, their bodies are free and they can like move and they come out and they're so stoked. And there's this story, my buddy, John Moore, who I swim with a lot or used to prior when I had the time to swim more often. Now I swim when I can with him.

But he loves this story where he was there and he watched this happen where this old timer comes out of the water. It was like a 57 degree water day. And he's, you know, of course not in a wetsuit. And someone says, how was it? Oh, it was great. Did you see anything?

No, no, no, the visibility was terrible. Oh, okay. And what was the water warm? Oh, no, no, no, it's freezing right now. Okay, but was it nice? Oh, it was great. It was just like beaming. That PMA, positive mental attitude.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't underestimate it. I feel that with these photos. Yeah, it's pretty cool. I just saw a little video on Twitter this morning. Somebody had posted it, I can't remember, but it was a video clip of the master's 100-yard dash. And some guy, I think he was 60, ran like a 13.1.

And there's a video of him running and he looks like he's throwing down. 13-1 on a 100? Yeah. Jeez. We'll see if we can find that. Do you think I could beat one of these guys in the 100? Probably.

Okay. Depends on your zone too. I looked at the times. I'm not fast. You looked at the times? I want to make sure I can beat them. Yeah. I don't know, maybe not.

Maybe not. They're more seasoned competitors. All right, let's talk a little bit about this sub seven hour Ironman attempt. Yes. People that listen or watch the show know how fond we are of the Norwegian experiments, Christian Blumenfeld, Gustav Eden,

Olaf, Alexander Boo. I just scheduled Olaf and Christian for the podcast. It's gonna go down mid-October. Beautiful. I'm gonna record separate episodes with both of them. So I'm looking forward to that. But right now, the next big challenge, this is coming up soon, right?

Yeah, that's supposed to be, I mean, I saw dates online for June 5th, June 6th, but I'm not sure if they have confirmed the dates yet, but yes, it's supposed to be, I mean, I saw dates online for June 5th, June 6th, but I'm not sure if they have confirmed the dates yet, but yes, it's coming up. It's akin to the Kipchoge experiment so that they can have pacers and they can draft in the cycling leg. So the idea is to attempt to go under seven hours

in an Ironman using all of these otherwise illegal devices. And there was an article in Cycling News the other day that Alex Dowsett is gonna be pacing Alistair Brownlee. Alex is a outstanding professional cyclist. And it just kind of sets the stage for this event to come. I thought it was just Christian. I didn't know that Brownlee was doing it as well. So are they the only two competitors?

As far as I know, they're the two, yes. Right, so these guys are stacking their teams with professional cyclists to rotate in and out and pace them throughout this. And Christian has his own team. I wasn't familiar with the guys that he selected. And it's sponsored by Zwift. It's happening, where is it happening?

It's happening in Germany. In Germany, yeah. In Germany. On a 5.85 kilometer fixed circuit, at least for the bike leg. Yeah, it's all gonna be laps, I think. That's part of the way they make it easier and like account for conditions. And to put this in perspective,

these guys are gonna have to maintain a speed between 45 and 50 kilometers per hour over the entire 112 miles of the bike leg in order to hit the target. That's crazy. Which is crazy, right? And then after that run a very fast marathon. Very fast.

Like sub 230, I think, like 220, right? I don't know exactly how that balances out. So anyway, I hope this is gonna be live streamed somewhere. It will be, it will be. And I think at this point, it's like one of those fun things to do. I wonder how it plays out there. I don't think they're tapering for,

they're not like, I don't know how much of a priority is for either of these athletes. Well, it's interesting, because you talked to Olaf recently, and he was saying this is like a blip on the radar in terms of how much they're focusing on it. I mean, you know,

they are happy to be involved in doing it, but it's not the, they're not orienting their season towards it, because they can't, because the season is, they just did the Ironman, and then, and he just won it. And so then they have some 70.3s lined up,

the Olympic World Cup race in Bergen in late August and then Kona. So that's kind of the points that they're orienting towards. And this is going to happen when the sponsors can figure out the best timing. And because of that, I think because it was a moving target, it's hard to aim for. Yeah, I don't know, man. I think things like this go a long way

towards really engaging the broader public in a sport that normally they overlook. If I was scheduling this, I would try to do it at a time where they could put a little bit more focus and intention into it because it's such a spectacle. I mean, look what the Sub2 project did for Kipchoge.

I think it put his name in a lot of people's brains who ordinarily would never have heard of that guy. Like it was so mind blowing to watch him do that. And it made his Tokyo win that much bigger. Right, a lot more people were invested in that. So from a PR perspective and from a sponsor investment perspective, I think things like this,

I think we need more stuff like this. Like this is not dissimilar from the Chris Chavez, Malcolm Gladwell, you know, Miles Showdown. It's like, these things aren't really part and parcel of like the traditional sports competition sphere, but it's things like this that I think a lot of these sports need to get other people interested in what's going on.

It makes it more fun. Yeah, it elevates the whole sport by doing this thing. I mean, the question is, does the marathon, is this thing everyone can relate to, the Ironman. It's tough to know. And plus, I don't even know if there's the Ironman involved in this. They don't like- No, this has nothing.

I don't think this has anything to do with Ironman. I'm sure they can't even use the word Ironman because they police that trademark. That's what I'm saying. So it's like, that makes it harder. But I hear what you're saying. Yeah, absolutely. It's like, it's a collab.

Yes, it is a collab. That is the theme of this podcast, is it not? Well, I'm definitely gonna be tuning in for this. Okay. I think it's super cool. I wonder how they're gonna do the run because the way they did like the Kipchoge thing was on that Monza track in Italy, right?

Right. Or it was on an auto track. Right. And it was just one giant loop. So for this, is the cycling loop the same as the run loop? And what is the swim situation? Good questions. I don't know.

I don't know. I didn't do the deep dive. All right. But we can look at that because I think there's gonna be a roll on right after this, right? Hopefully. Yeah.

Here's an idea. Cause those guys are coming here right after Kona or right before Kona, right after, right? Right after, it's perfect. I think, yeah. What about roll on on the road in Kona? That could be interesting. Some on the road in Kona? That could be interesting. Some real-time reporting in Kona.

Get Talbot. Good to think about that. You would have to compete with Breakfast with Bob. You know about Breakfast with Bob? No, who's that? So Bob Babbitt, who's a legend in Iron Man. Yes. Been around forever.

Bon vivant. everybody loves Bob. He does a show called Breakfast with Bob where all the like the ballers like sit down with him and do a little interview. So I don't wanna encroach on Bob's territory. No. We don't wanna do that. We'll take it after that.

Yeah, that could be fun. I'm gonna think about that. And anybody who's listening or watching, would that be something that you would be interested in? Hey, would you like to see the RRP go on location? Yeah, we could get a hype house. Yes. If only we knew someone who had a hype house in Kona.

I don't know. All right, I'll think about that. Speaking of hype, the last little story that I wanna cover here, which is super interesting. I love this story. The Australian World Championship team trials just took place, selecting the Australian swim team

for the World Championships this summer. And very interestingly, Cody Simpson landed a spot on the team swimming 51.9 in the 100 fly. I think he went to 51.7 in the prelims. Wow. So for people that don't know, Cody Simpson is a pop star. So to wrap your head around this, this would be the equivalent of like Justin Bieber making the Olympics. Like this guy was a huge musical sensation. He's spent quite a bit of time in Los Angeles. He lived here. He's done a little bit of training here. Last I heard when he was living in LA, he had a relationship with Miley Cyrus. I think he was living with Miley Cyrus for a while. He's dated

like Kylie Jenner and Gigi Hadid. Wow. This guy is like a legit celebrity. That's mega. Who had a background in swimming. He was a very good swimmer. Then he was focused on his music career. I know that when he was in LA, he was swimming down at USC, training with some of the guys

who were training for the Olympics because I was introduced to him through some mutual friends. And I think he had made a stab at making the Australian Olympic, he competed at the Australian Olympic trials, didn't make the team. He's 25, by the way.

25, wow. And then comes back and lands a spot on their world championship team and crushed it. I mean, that's a wild story. It's pretty rare. I've never heard of a story like it. It's the only thing that I can think of, even recent times, is Jake Paul becoming a good boxer.

Right, but he's not going to the Olympics in boxing. No, he's not making an Olympic team. No. And he's not, he's also- It's stunt boxing. And he's also not a mega star. So it's like, he is, but through YouTube. So I don't wanna rank people, but-

I can't think of another athlete who is like a huge talent and celebrated for that talent and is also like an extraordinary athletic talent. No, you sometimes get these athletes that like Jim Brown was at the height of Jim Brown's fame as an athlete. He was the best football player in the world. He started to do movies and he was in some big movies in the 60s.

So, you know, like that's probably the world, he started to do movies and he was in some big movies in the 60s. So, you know, like that's probably the close, but that again, he got the fame that made him a movie star. It's totally different when you're the movie star that then has to actually go through the grind of becoming an athlete. But who else now is like around 25? All right, back to Timothee Chalamet. It would be like if he suddenly made

the world championship team in the 10K, in the 10,000 meters or something. Right, it's crazy. And swimming is so all consuming. You can't really do anything else if you're gonna compete at that elite level. And he looks like a brick house. I mean, he looks- Yeah, he's jacked.

He's completely jacked. And he's got a massive like Instagram following. And this guy's like a global celebrity for his musical talent. So that's wild. I'm gonna pitch a story on it. Maybe I can- It's a great story.

Latch on to the back of his entourage and get five minutes of face time. I think you could drum up a pretty interesting story about this guy. I'd have to get the access. That's the key. You can swing that. You got connects.

I'm married into the Australian nation. That's right. That's right. That's right. Australians hang close to each other. Yes, Australians have more camaraderie within the nation. Well, especially when they're expats, like in America and places like that, they flock together for sure.

The other big story coming out of the Australian trials is Ariana Titmus, who set a world record in the 400 free, swimming 356.4, breaking Katie Ledecky's world record. I'm not sure, but is this the first one of Katie Ledecky's world records to fall to somebody else? I think so. I think it is. I think so.

She probably know the answer to that. But you know what, it was amazing watching that because she was at way out front the world record and then watching the world record line creep up, you could almost see Katie Ledecky just trying to track her down, you know what I mean? Because she closes so strong, Katie Ledecky. Her back end was stronger.

Ariana went out a little bit faster. Kyle Stockwell on Twitter is a great source for swimming news. He reports like a fiend. And he posted like the comparative splits between Titmus and Ledecky. And it was pretty interesting to see how they differed. He posted a great video of Titmus' coach,

which was a delight. Oh yeah, I saw that. Yeah, that guy was losing his mind. He was like, I got the Jeff Spicoli haircut. He looked like he was like seeing his favorite rock star. Like he almost looked like a rocker from like, like ACDC just showed up. I know. And I shared a little video clip of her swimming

and there's this underwater camera view of her stroke. Oh yeah. It's just so powerful. So amazing. Her swulf is better than mine, I'm pretty sure. I think she has a good swolf. A good swolf. I still don't know what that is,

but I'm sure hers is very good. But you know a guy who can test it. I do. Yeah. I guess this thing on my wrist might be able to too, but I don't know about that. Anyway, that's it for Endurance Corner. Let's take another quick break

and we'll be back with some thoughts on the art of memoir. All right, before we get into the next thing, two thoughts. First of all, Davey during the break was quick to add that Master P played in two NBA games, one for Charlotte and one for Toronto. Is that right? So that's in the ballpark, sort of. I don't know. But you still don't know

because he was already Master P. So you don't really know, would he have made the squad had he not been Master P? Whereas this guy, like that's a great thing about swimming. You can't make it. The clock doesn't lie. You're right.

Yeah, who knows? They say in basketball, the ball don't lie. And in swimming, they say the clock doesn't lie. Is that what they say? Who's they? Rasheed Wallace, ball don't lie, baby. Well, if there's anyone else out there that we're not thinking of,

like hit us up in the comments and let us know. The other thing is we're discussing the possibility of going to Kona during the break. And it took Adam a nanosecond before he inserted free diving into the conversation. We could do free diving podcasts and go free diving. And suddenly it became all about free diving. I got certified at Kona now as a free diver. And they drop a line and it's about 40.

Who's the guy there again? Well, I went with Kurt Kroc. There's a guy named, God, why am I spacing on? Is it Brett LeMaster? There's a guy who has another free diving school there that's not Kurt Kroc. When I was there like a year and a half ago, I think I hit you up because my buddy Anthony Irvin

was like, oh, I'm gonna go do it. Oh right, Kurt Chambers. So the other guy that, the third guy that is someone who I'm the most connected with, but I never trained with him. So there's two free diving schools that regularly do that in Honanau. Kurt Chambers has his own business

and he's all over the islands. He's like the number one guy for training people in every island in Hawaii. And it's also the best free diver of all of those guys. He's a hundred meter plus free diver. He has a cool Instagram as well. Yeah, great Instagram, great photographer and videographer. So he's in the Philippines right now, free diving.

So Kurt Chambers, that's what I was thinking. We could go dive with Kurt Chambers. So suddenly what if we go to Kona during Ironman week and all we do is go free diving and interview free divers. That seems like a bad use of budget. Yeah, I know, yeah. Anyway, all right, switching gears here. This week again, it's the 10th anniversary

of Finding Ultra, my first book. This has given me a moment to kind of reflect on this journey, which has been a really cool journey. That book really set in motion all of the things that I get to do today. And I'm very grateful for the experience of writing that book and sharing that story with the world. And yeah, I just kind of wanted to reflect back on that and celebrate it. I posted a tweet thread on Sunday with a few things that I've learned along the way as a result of writing this book.

Yes. Not the least of which is, often when I get interviewed or I see press about myself, it says New York Times bestselling author. And I always laugh. It's like, this book was not a New York Times bestselling book. It never made the New York Times.

It didn't make any of those lists. Like it came out, it did fine. And it found a little bit of an audience. And from there, it's just been a very slow build. Obviously the podcast has been helpful in it reaching more people, but just this kind of steady uptick year after year of people finding the book and enjoying it and sharing it,

which is kind of like this podcast and is really emblematic of like every success that I've had. Like I haven't had big viral moments. Like I said, in the tweet thread, I haven't been on Ellen or the Today Show or done a lot of mainstream stuff. I mean, maybe the most mainstream thing was the New York Times article that you wrote about me,

which I'm very grateful for. That was many, many years after this book came out. Right. But, you know, everything that I've been able to achieve has been a really slow burn. And so it was kind of a meditation on leaning into that. On the long game. Yeah. It's all about, and as an ultra endurance athlete,

like it's fitting. Yeah. I love that tweet thread. I thought it was cool. You say that the book has sold better each year since it was published. Yeah, I don't know if that's entirely accurate. I know it continues to sell and I would have to go back

and look at the specific numbers. I'm sure there's been ebbs and flows with that. But yeah, I mean, I just know from getting the quarterly statements or whatever that it continues to sell as well as it ever has. I mean, obviously the first week it comes out, like you're gonna sell a lot because it includes those pre-order numbers.

And then after that, there's a huge dip. And then from there forward, it's just been kind of a solid growth curve. Well, do you mind if I ask some probing questions on the record? There's no off the record here. Never, is that what you tell all your sources? No, what I tell them is anything you want off the record,

just let me know, but not you Rich. No, okay, I'm game. So tell us a little bit about like where you were in your life when you decided to write the book, cause you've already done these amazing feats. You've already kind of, you're on the path, you're sober, you're an endurance athlete again, you're fit. So like, where were you, how many years after Epic Five,

how did it all come together? It came together fairly shortly after Epic Five, how did it all come together? It came together fairly shortly after Epic Five. I'd come back from that and was trying to figure out what I was gonna do next. And it was a challenging time. Like we, I was still a practicing lawyer at that time, but I had lost so much interest in pursuing that, that I wasn't really making very much money doing that and was really struggling to pay the bills and to figure out how

to provide for my family. And the way it came together is kind of a cool story. There had been a little blurb about me in the Stanford Alumni Magazine about how I had done these races. And it mentioned that I had been sober for a while. And in the wake of that article coming out, I got an email from a guy who had been a swimmer at Stanford, who was somebody I didn't know. He was several years older than me. And he just said, listen, I saw that article in the alumni magazine, I'm newly sober and it would be good to be able to talk to somebody. Could we like talk on the phone?

And I just called him up or he called me. And this guy had recently gotten out of treatment. He's CEO of a large company. Nobody in his company knew what was going on with him. And he was trying to navigate like early sobriety and all of the kind of challenges of that. And I just was there to be of service to this guy and share whatever I could to help him. And that was it. And we had a number of calls, talked every couple of weeks for a period of time. And at some point he said to me,

like, you know, you have a pretty cool story. Like, have you ever thought about writing a book? And I hadn't seriously ever thought of writing a book. I had thought like, maybe, you know, maybe that would be a cool thing to do, but it wasn't like I had ever taken any active steps towards pursuing that in any meaningful way. He's like, oh, I know this book agent,

I should introduce you. And he did. And that led to me being on the phone with Carol Bidnick, who became my agent at the time. And I told her the story and she said, well, books like this are hard. You really have to thread the needle. I'd be happy to read a proposal

and happy to help kind of babysit you through how to put a proposal together. If you're interested, I can't make any promises. And that was kind of that, but it was like a little crack, the door cracked open a little bit. And I've just learned over the years when you have that little opportunity, like those don't come around that often.

So I was like, this is something I'm gonna take really seriously. And I worked really hard for like three or four months on a proposal, which entails, it's like writing a business plan for a book, as you know, because you've done it. Like you have to create a marketing plan and you have to synopsize the book and you have to write a couple chapters of it

and you gotta outline the whole thing. Like you gotta kind of spell out the entire project and also make the case for why it's viable in the marketplace. And I'd never done anything like that before, but I worked really, really hard on it because I knew like this is a shot that doesn't come around that often.

And when it was done, sent it to her and she said, this is good. But again, like, this is really hard. And I've got a couple, you know, publishing potential buyers here who I think might be interested in this. But like, you know, we'll see. Like she was very tempered in the whole thing.

But she said, I'm gonna slip it to a few people and I'll be in touch. And literally like within a day, I'd gotten interest from Random House, Rick Horgan, who's an editor there, was a big editor at Crown at the time, was interested. And Carol's like, let's do a call. And I still remember the call. I was like at the Calabasas Commons, which is like this outdoor mall, like walking around when this call was scheduled.

Cause I didn't have an office and I couldn't work at home. We had young kids and all that kind of stuff. And I would like go to the Barnes and Noble, which had free wifi at the time to work. And so to do this call where it was quiet, I remember like going behind some bushes to like do this pitch call. And he just said, tell me about this project

in the book. And I just laid it on thick and like threw down the best case that I could make on the phone. And within 72 hours, we had a deal that he took it off the table. And like, we were like off to the races. And Carol was like, that never happens. You don't understand. Like, this is always a much more protracted, challenging situation. So it was unbelievable. Like I was, you know, I couldn't believe that this was happening. And so there was another kind of crack,

you know, door cracking open. Just because you write a book doesn't mean it's gonna be good or successful. So I really busted my ass for like a year to put this book out and make it as good as I could. Did you separate yourself from your law practice entirely during that year? No, I was straddling both because I got like an okay advance for a first-time writer. But as you know, you see like, oh, it's this much money, but it's like, okay, you get 25% on signing and then 50% when you deliver the manuscript and then the other, like whatever percent when the book comes

out. So this is spread out over a long period of time. And when you take out taxes and agency commission, like it was, I was incredibly grateful for it. It was huge, but it wasn't a situation that was going to be able to sustain my family over a period of a year and a half. So I had to supplement my income with still practicing law at the time. I didn't pull the plug on practicing law until the book came out.

And then I was like, I'm not renewing my bar membership. Fantastic, so after the book came out. Yeah, then I was like, I'm done. And that was scary too, because you would think, like when the book comes out, oh, all these opportunities happen. And like, you got to be this guy and go tour with the book. And it was like, yeah, I did a little bit of,

I did a couple of appearances. A few people came to them. It wasn't any big deal. And then it was like crickets. Right. You know, and part, one of the lines in the book is, when your heart is true, the universe will conspire to support you.

And I was like, my heart's fucking true. Like the universe will conspire to support me. I believe that. What I realized is that it wasn't gonna be on my timeline. No, not on your schedule. And I had to suffer for quite a long time before things started to turn around and I was able to like create a vocation

out of what the book, you know, began. So the book comes out, you cancel your bar membership. So what are you doing like in that time? Because even if it was selling well, which you said it was doing okay, but it's not like you're gonna be able to live off of that. I mean, it was dark, dude. That was the period of time, and I've spoken about this many, many times before, so we don't

need to go into detail around it. But we had cars repossessed. I couldn't pay for our garbage removal, so our bins got taken away. We were driving around in a completely beat up minivan that had like 200,000 miles on it that smelled like garbage because we had to put our garbage in the minivan and then find an empty dumpster somewhere to dump them. Like it was humiliating and emasculating. But I'd get the occasional 500 bucks to go speak somewhere or some little opportunity would come along,

but it was dark and we were drowning. And that's when the opportunity to go to Kauai and work with this guy, Chris Jabe came along. He threw us a lifeline to help him figure out how to make use of this amazing property that he owned on the North shore of Kauai. And we moved to the Hanalei area and lived in yurts on his organic farm.

And I worked with him for three months trying to help him as best I could. And he paid us and that allowed us to like pay our bills. And it was like, I'm so incredibly grateful for it. It's confusing and weird in that, like, I don't know why he thought I could be the, I was the right person to fill this, you know, strange role that he wanted filled.

But I'm extremely grateful to him because he, short of that, like, I don't know what we would have done, but it was during that period of time, which was the winter of 2012, that I started the podcast there. And that's kind of what led to everything that's followed. Yeah, right. You started that there. And that's kind of what led to everything that's followed.

Yeah, right, you started that there. So it is related to the book in that regard, right? The book happens, you leave law, and then things kind of tailspin and you end up landing in Kauai softly in a beautiful place and then start this podcast. Yeah, and to be clear, like the podcast was a fun, creative passion project. It was never considered to be something

that would generate money that would allow me to support my family. And for a snapshot of what podcasting was like in 2012, it's nothing like it is today. Like it wasn't cool to start a podcast. I didn't know anybody other than myself that listened to podcasts. It was difficult to download a podcast.

This was before the iPhone and streaming. You had to download it on your desktop or your laptop and then bounce it to an iPod to create these like playlists. It was a thing. And at the same time, it was also a moment in time where it wasn't like people were starting podcasts all over the place. So from the very first episode,

we were able to make an impression on iTunes and solidify like a position in the charts and the health space. And that I think opened the door for us to develop a listenership in a way that would be much more difficult today. I can relate to thinking you get the book come out and you think you made it to a certain level

and you have, because it is an establishing thing for you because there is a perception around it, especially if the book has either sold well or been reviewed well, but even not, just if it has some sort of anything around it, like in my case, my book didn't,

One Breath didn't sell as well, but it had really good reviews in some places. And so then, but then afterwards, you're trying to, you have to then keep making a living, right? And for some reason you take your foot off the gas. I did. I took my foot off the gas a little bit

because I wasn't like, I didn't want to sell myself that hard. I didn't really push the PR as hard as, like to do it again, I think I would do things a lot differently and I never would take my foot off the gas, but you have to go through that to know that. You have to be utterly shameless in that phase.

And that's not really in the wiring of most writers. Like they write so they don't have to interact with people. They, you know. No, they write because they are ashamed. Well, like many artists, it's like, I did the thing, you go push it out into the world. Like I already created my thing. And sometimes there's an expectation that the world. Like I already created my thing. Like, and sometimes there's

an expectation that the world is awaiting this great work, you know, like nobody's waiting for your thing, you know, like you got to make it happen. And I remember getting counsel from some people who were like, you have to do everything in your power to make people care about this. And I treated that like my job, did the best that I could with the small sort of interest, public interest that I had at the time. But yeah, it kind of comes and goes. And it's a weird dissociative experience because on the one hand, like I couldn't believe

I was being given the opportunity to write a book. And then that book, you could go to Barnes and Noble and see it on the shelf. It's like mind blowing. Right, yeah, that was cool. I can't even believe this. This is like so cool. Like travel to a different city and go into a bookstore

and your book is there, like wild, right? And the fact that 10 people would come to like, hear me talk about it, like, who are these people? Like, that's crazy. You know, so that was all gravy and amazing. But I think there's a public perception that if you're a published author and your book is in a bookstore,

that like you don't have to worry about paying your bills. And I can tell you that that's certainly not the case. The opposite is true. The writing style itself, like obviously as a lawyer, people know lawyers write a lot, but they don't write in this particular way. A lot of lawyers write in stilted, highly specific ways.

You were able to, in your first crack, like I write all the time, so like it's part of my musculature, you do now as well, but often for the podcast, but for this book, you weren't coming from like writing every day kind of background. Well, yes and no. I mean, first of all, have you read my demand letters from my lawyer days? I would not call them stilted. Writing a great snarky demand letter is an art form in and of

itself. You should do a collection. Yeah. There's some great ones like, you know, You should do a collection. Yeah, there's some great ones like, you know, I am in receipt of your, you know, I assure you that my client, you know, and whatever. No, I was a creative writer long before I was a lawyer. Like I did a lot of writing in college. I always loved it. And law school and being a practicing lawyer,

I think only enhances one's writing skill because it lends, you know, structure to it. It provides like a framework for making an argument and supporting that argument as long as you hold on to whatever creative flair that you have. So, but just the practice of always being writing when you're a lawyer, I think keeps that muscle strong. But I think a lot, the sensibility of the book has less to do with writing skill and more about like a willingness to be vulnerable and tell stories that most people

would maybe be too uncomfortable to share. But you tell them as if you're writing as you talk, which is what you should do. And so it's very natural voice in the book. Yeah, I mean, I don't know about you when you're writing, but for me, the approach with this book was to overwrite it,

like just write everything and then figure out what the salient stories are and like cull out everything that isn't moving the story forward. And I work with it, Rick Horgan was my editor, but I also worked with another editor. Cause I think you need that sounding board or that feedback

because you're too in the middle of it. Like it's your story. So having perspective is important as well. But I think most memoirs suffer from lack of editing. Like there's too much in there. It's not like, if you're telling your quote unquote life story, you're not supposed to say, tell every story that ever happened to you.

That's interesting. Like what is propelling the story forward that pivots on the themes that you are, you know, finding most important and telling that story. Well, let's talk about the craft of memoir. What do you think makes a good or great memoir? It's a good question. I wanna throw that to you as well

as somebody who's written memoirs. I mean, for me, you know, my book kind of falls into the sports memoir category. And I think most sports memoirs suck. They're terrible because they're vain glorious. Like they're generally written by a ghost writer in the twilight of a certain athlete's career

as an exercise in extending that particular athlete's brand viability. And so they tend to focus on all the great stuff that they did, but they rarely paint a full picture of that person's life. Like they don't typically have the level of candor and honesty and vulnerability that I think is critical to connecting with a readership. I mean, there's exceptions to that.

I think Andre Agassi's memoir is exceptional for that reason. So for me, I didn't wanna be influenced by that genre. So I didn't go out and read a bunch of memoirs and try to deconstruct what would make for a good memoir. I just tried to tell my story as openly and as honestly as I could. And the framework that I use for that is sort of what happened, what it was like, what happened and what it's like now, which is like the 12-step format of sharing your story.

what happened and what it's like now, which is like the 12-step format of sharing your story. And as somebody who's sat in tens of thousands of 12-step meetings and listened to people share their stories, and I've had the opportunity to share my own many, many times, that was really more of where my head was at. How can I tell my story in an extended version

of that format and to do it as honestly as I could. So that's interesting. That's kind of a storytelling workshop for you in a way, the 12 step. Oh, big time. And as a podcast host. The bridge, the writing bridge from undergraduate all the way to the book, but the storytelling,

the creative writing, the storytelling and the memoir aspect is kind of like, you know, you're soaking it in and all these meetings. Right, and when you are in a position where you're telling your story a lot, it starts to tell you what it is. And when you have an audience, you can gauge in real time,

like what people are responding to, what's important, what's not. I think David's, that's why one of the reasons that you wanted to spin it back, but Can't Hurt Me was a success, a large part because David had been telling versions of that story in his recruitment for the Navy's recruitment speaking gigs during the Navy when he'd go to high schools and colleges.

And he'd been telling it on podcasts, obviously starting here and then other podcasts as well. And so he was able to do that. And he was a master of that story. By the time he got here, you know, obviously starting here and then other podcasts as well. And so he was able to do that. And he was a master of that story. By the time he got here, you know, you'd think you're the, I think you were one of the first podcasts he was on, but he'd been telling that story and versions of it

for 10 years already. And so he was a total master of it. And so when I got linked up with him, you know, my job is just to be the blank channel and to try to channel as much of pure David into it. So it's interesting, because it's the same idea. You hear the story and the story starts, you refine it,

and it becomes almost an organic process. So when you were writing that book, were there other literary reference points that you were trying to mimic in some way? Like what were the inspirations beyond just David himself? Well, I mean, I think David, I'd have to put that at the top because his story is so epic

that you knew it was gonna help a lot of people if it's done well. You know, like it's just an incredible story. It's a real life Rocky story. So like how often does that fall in your lap? Sure, but in structuring it, I'm sure he told you some incredible stories that didn't make it into the final version of the book.

Oh yeah, 100%, yeah, yeah. So how you structure it was, you know, I'd have to think about it, but what was really, in terms of my approach, the only, I didn't think about anybody else's memoir, really, the only one I can think of, of a ghostwritten memoir that I really loved was the autobiography of Malcolm X.

And so that's Alex Haley wrote that. And so I thought, first of all, when before David even came around, when someone asked, when Bird asked me if I would be interested in ghostwriting, I thought, well, if Alex Haley could be interested in ghostwriting, I certainly could be interested in ghostwriting, I thought, well, if Alex Haley could be interested in ghostwriting, then I certainly could be interested in ghostwriting. And so that book is one of my favorite books of all time. I think it's the goat when you talk about memoir. I don't think there's

a better memoir ever. And so certainly there was that, but I didn't go back and read it. I didn't think about structure in that way because I think what I was mostly concerned about was telling his story properly and keeping it true to him. And so it's like, as long as that's your focus is on making that story great, then yeah, I didn't think of it any other way. And I just tried to rely on how did I write? Cause I still, even though One Breath didn't sell

as I'd hoped, I knew it was a good book. So how can I take what I learned there and apply it to this and write something that's good? So that's really my whole approach, but I didn't have any sort of feeling how it would go or how it would turn out. And when you look back on One Breath or even the Goggins book, Can't Hurt Me,

do you look at it and think, on One Breath or even the Goggins book, Can't Hurt Me, do you look at it and think I should have done this or I should have changed that? Or are you able to just say, yeah, those are great? Well, it's funny you say that. With One Breath, there was, my first book proposal with One Breath included me as a part of the investigation. So like the way Krakauer did into the wild.

Inserting yourself into the narrative. And which is how most people do, well, not most, there's been a period of time where it's in vogue to do that way or not to do it that way. I always thought that you should tell it that way cause it gives the reader someone besides the protagonist to relate to. And so, and those were some of my favorite books

Into Thin Air, especially, but he's obviously on the climb. That's almost part memoir, but into the wild, him investigating it as part of the story. So I thought that was gonna be it. But then when we got the deal, the editor at Crown didn't want that. He wanted it to be more like shadow divers, which is this story where the journalist is the channel,

but it's not in the story. And then I read a book called "'Behind the Beautiful Forevers' by I think it's Catherine Boo, which is a masterpiece. And that was kind of one of the first nonfiction books I'd read in a long time where there was no, the journalist wasn't there, but obviously was there. It's all about the Mumbai slums and the people that live in the Mumbai slums,

but it's a beautiful book. And so I thought that she's the ticket. So I paid attention there, but in terms of memoir, I didn't do it. I mean, I've liked, I've loved some memoirs, love Eat, Pray, Love, obviously, you know, with Gilbert, I think she's set the standard and a lot of books that we've seen since then owe their existence love Eat, Pray, Love. Obviously, you know, with Gilbert, I think she's set the standard and a lot of books that we've seen since then

owe their existence to Eat, Pray, Love. Heartbreaking Work of Staggering Genius by Dave Eggers was monumental, loved that. I love the Zanzibar chest, which is probably out of print now by Aiden Hartley, which was great, a journalist that worked for, in the 90s in Africa, all the wars in Africa and covered those.

So, you know, there are definitely some memoirs I loved, but I didn't really look at them when I was taking on David Stewart. Was that a conscious decision? Yeah, I mean, I don't, you know, it's a good question. I just didn't think that they had, I didn't, I needed to tune into David. It's different when you're writing a book

that's your byline and that you're taking on. I think you have more, there's more latitude, but this time I needed to tune into David. Right. And so that's what I did. So I spent all my time tuning in there. The book that I would add to that list, which is a great list, is Murakami's What I Think About

When I Think About Running. Right. Which is definitely a touchstone for me. But I think I, you know, the other thing that was going on when I was writing this book is, it's kind of funny, is that around the time that my book was announced,

it was also announced that Scott Jurek was writing a book. Right. So Scott Jurek was writing a book. So Scott Jurek, you know, being the reigning, you know, king of ultra running and also a plant-based athlete was a pretty heavy blow and semi-demoralizing to me. I mean, nothing but love for Scott, but I'm thinking we're writing these like dueling memoirs at the same time, like why would anyone read my book?

Like they can read Scott's book. He's the king. I've never even won a race. I can't even believe I have a book deal. Like given that I'm not like a world champion athlete or anything like that, it was confusing. It's like, oh, I'm gonna write this book. Like, what is the way in?

Or what is the reason that I can give somebody to read this book? And I realized, or I settled on this notion that I think was really fundamental and important, which is the success or failure of my book would be directly correlated to the extent to which I was willing to be vulnerable. Because the story I wanted to tell

was a more relatable human story, an aspirational story versus an inspirational story. And my ability to connect with the reader, that connective tissue would be forged through kind of sharing things I'm not proud of in hopes that that would like breed some level of recognition. So that anybody reading it who's harboring some kind of pain or secret themselves could say,

well, wow, I relate to that guy. Or there's a part, even though the details of this is another like 12-step thing, like even though the details of that story are very different from mine, like I identify with the feelings and the emotions. And so I use that as kind of a North Star. Yeah, that's why like, you know, it's funny. I mean, it's very different book, but Eat, Pray, Love kind of came to mind when I was reading this because that's one thing

I think that made that book so successful. And so you followed in that track, which I think is a great track. I love that book. And I think Liz is amazing. And I know she's a friend of yours. Like, I just think she's the best. She's the coolest.

Especially when her and Rob Bell get together, like it's unbelievable. But she got a lot of shit for that book, right? Later, but like at first it was- Was that because of the Oprah thing or the movie or what was it? Well, I think, I mean, the first of the book was a cultural touchstone.

So I think anytime you get so big, the haters come. So I think what happened at first was the book came out, it made the list, it was doing all right. She was going around the bookstores, just like we described. And I went to a reading at Borders when, I don't even think it's still there on Masi Eniga and maybe like 50 people were there.

So it's not a bad turnout at all, but it wasn't like, and then like, I think six months later or maybe several months later, she told me she was with, you know, a publicist going to a reading in San Diego and she had just done Oprah and there was like lines around the block and that's when everything changed for her and it became monumental. And so for a long time, it was very, I don't think there was like lines around the block and that's when everything changed for her and it became monumental.

And so for a long time, it was very, I don't think there was anything negative. And then I think maybe that backlash came later. I don't know where it was. It was like, she was misdefined as like being some rich person who had gone on this trip. Right. Which was not true.

You know, she was doing fine as a writer cause she's a great writer, but she wasn't like this, she wasn't not self-made. Right. So there was a lot of bullshit backlash, but that comes, I think, when you get certain, when you get big.

Right. And that's what happens. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, speaking of bullshit, let's talk a little bit about the publishing world. Well, I wanted to- Because like, I did not have the experience of going on Oprah and having lines around the block. I had a very different experience.

But I think it beckons like a little bit of discussion around like how publishing works. And this is a little inside baseball, but I think it's interesting. And I think people who read books would find this interesting if they're not already aware of it. As I mentioned, like my book didn't make

the New York Times bestseller list. It's had this slow build. It continues to, I mean, it's still like in top categories on Amazon, particularly the audio book. Like it's still number one, two or three in cycling and running and triathlon and stuff like that. Which is great, but on the whole like New York Times bestseller thing,

like, you know, I know from going through this process many times and also by dint of hosting authors who have books coming out on the podcast, because now podcasting has become like a de rigueur stop on the book publishing tour. Like you have to go on these shows and then we try to work with authors so that the episodes come out around the book's release.

And I do the best I can. I can't always commit to that. But I understand that they're here to try to get their book out into the world. And I certainly don't begrudge anyone that. Like I'd be doing exactly the same thing. So the way it works is there's a pre-order period and then there's the publishing week.

And all book orders during that pre-order period and including that first week after publication, all books come out on Tuesday for some weird reason, are counted towards first week sales. And that first week sales number is what gets fed to the New York Times and has a lot to do with how they crunch the numbers and decide who makes it onto the list.

What people don't know is that this system is very easily gamed. You can literally buy your way onto the New York Times bestseller list and many, many people do it. I don't know. I know that like now people are more aware of this and perhaps the New York Times

and other people that compile these lists have precautionary members to weed out bad actors. But at least the last time, or when Finding Ultra came out, like there's like companies that you can cut them a big check and then they go and purchase the book through all the varying outlets

at specified periods of time. So they take your money and they use it to buy your own book. And the way it works is you can't just bum rush Amazon and buy a ton of books. Like you got to spread it out through all the different online retailers, et cetera, so that it doesn't look like there's a bad actor. You know, and there are people that know how to do this. Do you burn your own book?

I don't know. Who gets the books? I mean, I can't imagine doing this, but a lot of people do this so that, you know, they have huge numbers during that pre-order period and during first week, and then they end up on the bestseller list. But it's a complete, it's like fake news, right?

Like they've just bought their own book. And so their book disappears the following week. No one's ever heard of it again. At the same time, like I know a lot of CEOs or high net worth people that put out books, particularly like business books or how-to books, they can, because they're high net worth people, can just buy their own book and then like either give it to their staff or resell the book when they do public speaking appearances. So they're like, they double dip on it,

but they buy a gigantic stash that they sit on and can kind of sell over time. And that has a similar effect. So it's crazy. So that's why you'll see a book appear and then you'll never hear about that book ever again. That's a pretty good indication that, and I would imagine that the New York Times

is probably much better at trying to figure out who's doing this and who isn't. Yeah, also, I think, I'm pretty sure, I don't have, I don't know for a fact, but I'm pretty sure, almost positive that also the New York Times doesn't have like, it's not just about who sold the most. They have like certain criteria,

like they're skewed against. There is a weird subjectivity that gets injected. Yeah, and I don't know what it is, but like it's not really just straight who sold. Exactly, it's not pure numbers. And also what is the current status or their stance on self-published books, Adam? Right, well, I mean, I don't think

"'Can't Hurt Me' got a fair shake on that list at all. I mean, so was it ever on the list? It was, it was on the list, but it was like, so they have an audio list and it was never on the audio list, even though we were still getting like one of the top listened to audio books still. And Audible is the main platform.

And we were at the time like number two for months. It was like you and Michelle Obama. And then, so I don't think we got a fair shake there. We didn't get a, it was on the general list maybe once. And then it was on the self-help list. And so it was nice to be on the list and be recognized, but it wasn't a fair shake because, and I don't think it was reflective of the sales.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting how that works. I mean, cause I just remember when it first came out, I mean, obviously like it was selling like crazy and it wasn't on the list. Still. But I believed at that time they had a policy

that self-published books were not eligible. Exactly. And maybe that's over because they're starting to cover self-published books a little bit differently. But like, you know, what I loved about your thread was, and talking about the long game is, it ultimately doesn't matter because what mattered more

is like what you're building towards. And you said it yourself on your thread that, you know, looking back that vanity phase doesn't even matter when you're talking about actually influencing people and having people read it and enjoying the book. Yeah. I mean, I'm really proud of the fact that it has become a perennial seller and that's very meaningful. Like who's buying your book 10 years later? It seems like a more important metric, but less sexy because I can't call myself a New York Times bestseller. Very uncommon though, 10 years later, very.

But is there anything you would do differently, looking back in terms of what you included in the book, any passages that stand out or things like that? I mean, 100%. I don't think that you've grown as a human being if you can look back on a creative work and be satisfied with it. I mean, I'm proud of it.

And I'm not about to like rewrite it again, but, and I don't go back and crack it cause there's a certain cringe factor with that. Like you can't be seen doing that. I don't listen to my own podcast. You can't have your children running to you reading your own book. I mean, look, I don't need you, but yeah, there's tons of stuff that I would change.

I think as you grow and you mature, and also you get a sense of like, what was important about that or meaningful and what wasn't. And, you know, I had an opportunity to comb through it a couple of years ago when I rewrote it. And I took out a ton of stuff that I couldn't even believe that I included the first time around.

And I think today, if I was to go back and rewrite it, the main thing I would do would be to just make it a pure memoir and get rid of all the appendices and all the kind of lifestyle stuff and that. Cause that's almost like a second book and just make it a pure memoir as opposed to this hybrid memoir

kind of lifestyle guide aspect that it has to it, which I think is helpful to a lot of people. But that might've got people interested and that probably helps you sell it. Maybe it should have been, maybe, you know, maybe, but maybe that should have been a second book. Maybe the title isn't great and maybe I shouldn't be running on the cover.

There seems to be some conflicting opinions about that. But I think it suffered from the fact that when it came out with its title and the title image, that people thought it was a book about running, which it kind of is, but it really isn't. No, right. So I don't know that it really sells the crux of what the book is about.

And perhaps that was a barrier that prevented it from breaking out a little bit more broadly. At the same time, like, you know, I don't know. I think I would, I mean, I think I have a better grasp on the story and with some maturity, I have a better understanding of some of the things that I went through. And I could like write to that a little bit more eloquently

and maturely than I did at the time. Cause distance always creates that. I wouldn't change it whole cloth, but I think I would take out any, like the first time, the first edition of the book that came out, I had like, you know, here, you can find my protein powder here, like stuff like that.

I was like, that's, I can't believe I put that in the book. Like that had no place in the book. Especially if you want to write something that's gonna stand the test of time, like get rid of all that nonsense and just write a great story. What about any plans for a future book by Mr. Ritro through the publishers?

I know you're putting out these great books. Yeah, I really do wanna write another book and I definitely have another book by Mr. Rich Roll through the publishers? I know you're putting out these great books. Yeah, I really do wanna write another book and I definitely have another book in me. The challenge is my life is so busy and full. Like when I wrote Finding Ultra, I had nothing going on. I was like, I'm writing this book and I would just write it all day. Now, like I'm occupied all day long, every single day.

I can't imagine being able to carve out time to write a book. I don't know how people with busy lives do that. Like there's no way it's gonna happen without help. That's where the ghostwriters come in. I know, I know. But then I'm not a big fan of this. I'm gonna have to write with, I'm gonna have to work with,

but then it's the control thing. It's like, I'm a writer. Like why would I have somebody else help me write a book? But the reality is, yes, like, I'm a writer. Like, why would I have somebody else help me write a book? But the reality is, yes, you may be consider yourself a writer, but like without, it's either like, hold onto that and never write another book or accept help, work with somebody else and get another book out in the world. I don't love this trend of social media star with huge following plus ghostwriter formula because I don't think that produces books

people wanna read that much. But I mean, obviously I understand why publishers do it because they're trying to get sure things, but I'm not sure. I would love to see like an audit how well that does for the publishers. Like, but in your case, no, I mean, I think you can have a ghostwriter

and obviously still write something that people wanna read because it's a matter of how you tell the story. And I don't think that, I think that having been through that, my job is to stay out of the way and channel as much from whoever's telling me the story, who's really the author of the book and the author of the story and who lived that life and be blank.

And so I think if you find someone who can do that, but I just don't think that always happens. I think it's, to your first point about people with social media followings and ghostwriters, it depends on the individual. Like how interesting is that person? What is the story they're gonna tell? And most people aren't writers.

So they benefit from having a really good writer help them crack that story open. Like what you do, what Neil Strauss does, like they elevate everything that you're involved in. So there's a real value to that. I think the ghostwriter thing could be a little bit more transparent in certain cases. I don't like it when you see somebody who's a celebrity

or somebody with a big following and they pass it off like they wrote the entire book and I know that they didn't, because I know from behind the scenes that they got help from person X, Y, or Z. Just be honest about it. Well, I think Barack Obama outed Michelle Obama for having a team of ghostwriters.

Did he? Yeah, I think. What happened there? He was trying to explain. I don't know this. I think he was trying to say why it took so long for his book to come out while her book was just dominating the charts.

Oh, is that? And he's like, I wrote it. Because he actually wrote it? Yeah, yeah, he wrote it. I mean, he wrote his first book when he was in college, right, or law school? Yeah, he wrote it, yeah. So I don't know, so that's kind of the,

I mean, if I was gonna write another book, what do you think that book should be? You want me to pitch you your next book? Yeah. I won't tell you where my head's at with it, but I wanna hear what you think that book should be? You want me to pitch you your next book? Yeah. I won't tell you where my head's at with it, but I wanna hear what you think. True crime. True crime.

Lean into true crime. That's interesting. I think it would be the second phase. Like how do you, what happens in the years after Finding Ultra building the podcast business, an inside look at what the podcast... Because I think there hasn't been that book yet describing early days of the podcast business and how that goes. And you can do that while at the same time turning 50 and being in that and having that kind of dealing with even your injury that you're dealing with now.

And I think all of that would result in some interesting kind of storytelling. Yeah, I don't know how to crack that open. But don't you think that that's the subject matter? I think it would be, I don't know. I mean, is there enough story there? Right. I think it would be more along the lines

of picking certain subjects or topics from longevity to gratitude, to acceptance, to, and then kind of doing some story. Not memoir. Doing some storytelling within like, having each chapter be on a different kind of concept. Like a blue zones, but with multiple concepts. I don't know.

No, there's no travel involved to Sardinia. I don't think. You're gonna stay in Malibu? The Blue Zones of human experience. I don't know. Blue Zones of Malibu. Yeah. See, here's the problem, Adam.

I don't know. You haven't figured it out. Yeah, I have. You can always just go fiction. Listen, I know there's another book in there. I have yet to crack what it is. And I think that I would be asleep at the wheel if I didn't figure out another way to birth another project.

But you just told a story about being broke ass and having to take your growing garbage out in the minivan. I mean, and then starting the podcast. A little bit about that in the revised and updated version of Finding Ultra, which you would know if you didn't, weren't sitting there with the old version. I read the one, I tried to order that protein powder.

Yeah, I know, right? I still get emails like, where can I get that thing? And I was like, I discontinued that a long time ago. I can't believe I put that in. I'm so ashamed of that. No, it's whatever. Your editor could have helped you. Yeah.

I don't know, man. But look, I'm really proud of the book. I can't believe that people are still finding audiences 10 years later. And as I said in the tweet thread, it is indicative of kind of everything that I've been able to succeed at in life. It's just this idea of staying true to who you are

and doubling down on your instinct of what's right for you and being patient and not getting caught up in externalities because we do over index on accolades and starting line benchmarks. And we mistake them for meaningful predictors of long-term success while we remain blind to the greater opportunity to kind of patiently and persistently build a solid foundation

for sustainable success over time. And I would have loved to have come out with a splash and had a Liz Gilbert experience, that's not what happened. And I realized in retrospect that what happened was supposed to happen. And I'm very grateful for the way that it unfolded. Also, I wouldn't have been able to emotionally handle that. And I probably would have imploded

had I had that kind of success. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, that's like once in a, that's once or twice in a generation type success, you know, like Oprah's, you know, nobody is makes books like that anymore. Like with a touch of their signature, help open up a whole audience

for books like, I don't even, I mean, there's several people that are doing it. Reese Witherspoon is doing it in her way. Yeah, she's sort of the heir apparent. There's book Instagram influencers, like in that world they're doing it. But I don't know if anyone, if there will ever be another time like Oprah had

with the Oprah's book club where she, where she really had an incredible influence on a lot of people, which speaks to the trust that she created through her audience and through the work she'd done for her whole life. So it's cool that that happened, but in the end, the book has to be great or you're not gonna get someone like Oprah interested.

And like she was recommending great books. So she was really reading them and really loving them. So there's also that, it wasn't contrived. I feel like Reese Witherspoon is really shouldering that mantle. Yeah, yeah, she's the closest, yeah. But I don't think you can accurately say. Well, it was also- She did help with,

I think, Crawdads, which is a, let me make sure I get the title right, which is one of the best novels I've read in a long time. Where the Crawdads Sing by Delia Owens. I thought that might've been a, that might've been a Reese recommend, but I'm not 100% sure. And that is a magnificent book.

Right. Cool. Any final thoughts before we close this out? Well, no, you've got a giveaway, right? Yes. Tell us about the giveaway. So first of all, I just wanna thank everybody who has taken a chance on this podcast

or taken a chance on this or any of the other books that I've put out or my wife and I have put out together. I just can't even believe that I get to like do this thing and live this life. Super grateful for everything, all the hardships and the successes. I just get to wake up every day

and come and be here with people like you. And it's a gift, man. It's such a gift. And I have to like remind myself of that when it gets hard or I get grumpy or I don't sleep well or my back hurts or whatever, but it's really all because of you guys, the audience, who have basically allowed me to continue to do this.

And it's incredible, man. So I'm super grateful and thank you. Also, I should point out though, that although the book continues to sell, it's still, the readership for Finding Ultra is still a tiny fraction of the podcast audience. So there's a lot of people who listen to or watch this podcast who have not read the book. And so maybe this 10 year anniversary celebration

is a good reason for you to finally check it out. There's a lot in the book that, you know, stuff I don't talk about on the podcast. And I just think whether you're an ultra runner or a plant-based person or not, or you struggle with addiction, it's really a story of trying to find out who you are and overcome obstacles in your life

to, you know, be more authentically you. And the template is ultra endurance and the template is recovery. So the facts of my experience may not be any, even the least bit similar to your lived experience, but hopefully there's something emotionally in there that you connect with. And like I said, the 10th anniversary of the book

is a good time or excuse to check it out. And to kind of sweeten that, we decided that we would do a giveaway. So I'm gonna give away 50 personally inscribed copies of the book to 50 winners. If you would like to enter the giveaway, you need to subscribe to my newsletter. To do that, you can go to richroll.com slash subscribe.

Basically, you just provide your email address, you join the mailing list. And then in the next couple of days, we'll send out an email to everybody who is a subscriber with further instructions on how to like enter the giveaway. We've set a deadline of June 9th to secure an entry. There's no purchase necessary. We have official rules that we'll apprise you of. So anybody can be entered to win without buying anything. Again, richroll.com slash subscribe. And I should say on that point, we've had an email

list for quite some time. And historically, we've used it just to send out an email every time there's a new podcast out. And then occasionally an email about like a rebate or a deal on the Plant Power Meal Planner or something like that. But I think I'd like to figure out a way to make more productive use of this email list and the subscriber base. So I'm interested in what you guys, the audience, the listeners, the viewers would like to see. Like, would you like to receive an email from me? And if so, what would be included in that email

that would be valuable to you? And I think I've been reluctant to pursue this, A, for bandwidth reasons, because it would be additional work for me. But also at the same time, I'm sensitive about sending people emails. Everybody's email inbox is overflowing at this point. But we're also in a period of time where people are creating sub stacks and kind of subscription newsletters. So there is a receptivity to receiving something that would actually be helpful and valuable. And I'm interested in trying to figure out

what that might be for all of you guys. So if you have some thoughts, you can tweet at me at Rich Roll or send an email through the website or DM me or leave a comment on the YouTube video. See listeners, other people say, don't at me. Rich says, at me. Right.

I mean, I'm not saying I'm gonna get back to everybody, but I'm interested in soliciting everybody's input because I don't wanna create something and send it out if that's not what people are interested in. Right, right, I like that. Because I don't wanna be, I don't take it frivolously. No, no, no.

It should be well thought out if I'm gonna do that. Yeah, it's not just about like putting something out there. It's putting something out there that could be of use. Right, yes. Love that. I think that's it, dude. Did we do it? I think we did it.

How about that? All right, well, we'll be back in two weeks with another Roll On. Yes. In the meantime right, well, we'll be back in two weeks with another Roll On. Yes. In the meantime, be well, everybody. And Roll On. Parting thoughts. Me?

No, I have zero parting thoughts. Let's see, do I have parting thoughts? I think, what am I? Oh, you know what? I got into succession. I finally did it. I finally started liking it. So we have an outline like what we've been enjoying.

We didn't get to that today. No. I got a lot of racks and lots of picks. You're gonna get next time. You're in a deep cut though. Next time. On culture. Dude, I'm like in the office all day into the night. You're on the grind right now.

I'm on the grind, but it's gonna be worth it. And then we can talk about it some stage. Yeah, maybe next time we'll share what we've been enjoying. I've been enjoying some cool stuff at the moment. And with that, I bid you adieu. Adieu. See you in two weeks. Peace, plants, namaste.

You hear that beeping? I wonder if the mics are... Can you hear that? There's a truck backing up. You guys hear that? For the last two hours, there's been a truck backing up. Yeah, that's Brogan out there trying to back his way in here. Once again.

Brogan. Brogan. Broken.