The Rich Roll Podcast - Roll On: The Slap, The Swim & The Self-Myth (+ 'The Rollies'!)

Episode Date: March 31, 2022

In today's episode of 'Roll On', Rich Roll & Adam Skolnick discuss Will Smith, Lia Thomas & Taylor Hawkins. Plus: nominees for the 1st annual "Rollies' awards, a coaching call check-in with Chris Hauth & much more. Vote for your favorite "Rollie' nominees HERE. To read more and to peruse the show notes, click here. You can also watch it all go down on YouTube. And as always, the podcast streams wild and free on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. To grab your copy of Voicing Change Vol. II, visit: https://www.richroll.com/voicing-change-ii/ This is a fun one—enjoy! Peace + Plants, Rich

The Rich Roll Podcast. Hey everybody, Roland is back. My spidey sense tells me this one might be a little controversial and it's coming right up, but first. Coming right up, but first. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety.

And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care, especially because, unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. It's a real problem. A problem I'm now happy and proud to share has been solved by the people at recovery.com who created an online support portal designed to guide, to support, and empower you to find the ideal level of care tailored to your personal needs.

They've partnered with the best global behavioral health providers to cover the full spectrum of behavioral health disorders, including substance use disorders, depression, anxiety, eating disorders, gambling addictions, and more. Navigating their site is simple. Search by insurance coverage, location, treatment type, you name it. Plus, you can read reviews from former patients to help you decide. Whether you're a busy exec, a parent of a struggling teen, or battling addiction yourself, I feel you. I empathize with you. I really do.

And they have treatment options for you. Life in recovery is wonderful, and recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. Adam, should we do the show? I don't see why not. I don't know, man. I know.

I don't know. I understand. But you know what? What? F it. Listen, it's either do it or let's just get the hell out of here and have a good day.

We're gonna do it. Let's do the show. Fine. Born in 1966. Fine. Born in 1966. A man of many talents. And the will to push through.

Rich Roll! He turned his life around. He wasn't doing so hot. He got rid of that weight and he gained a lot of wisdom. He lives in a tent. Rich Roll! Thank you all so much for playing along. And I hope you have a wonderful night. And I'd like to welcome to the stage, Mr. Rich Roll!

Hey everybody, welcome to another edition of Roll On where journalist, author, mask wearing friend of whales and generally pleasant human, Adam Skolnik and I dive into matters that range from deeply grave on the one hand to fairly dunder headed on the other. Today, I would say leans heavily into the latter with a light dusting of somewhat controversial topics before a little bit of wonderful,

we're calling the Rollies. Stay tuned for the Rollies. Slice of wonderful. The first annual Rollies. And then closing with a coaching call check in with friend of the podcast, Chris Hout, holding my hand to the salty water fire in this lead up that I find myself in

towards an impending 12 and a half mile open water swim that I made the unfortunate mistake of putting on my calendar. But first, how goes it my periodically gilled friend of feathered penned and finned fishes? You know, I need a feathered pen. I'm surprised you don't have one. I know I need one.

But the problem is I've been into a business mode lately. I've been putting the finishing touches on my business plan. I can't wait for this. For the spa space. Okay. Yeah. Do tell. So if you're like me,

you love a forgiving mirror and a scale that's a little bit light. Am I right? Doesn't everyone love that? A little funny mirror that makes you look skinny and handsome. Not a funny mirror. You want it to be like-

Just tweaked a little bit. Tweaked enough to where it's slanted down or something. So yeah, you look svelte. Well, they have them. They can compress like the way that you appear in them. So you look maybe 15, 20 look svelte. They can compress like the way that you appear in them. So you look maybe 15, 20% svelter. Okay, well get me that guy's email, cause I need that.

So I want that. And then we're gonna monkey with the scale. So they're like two, two and a half pounds light. So you come to my spa, you have the treatment, you work out, you do whatever you wanna do. And then you see yourself in you do whatever you wanna do. And then you see yourself in these mirrors and you get on the scale and you leave so happy.

And as soon as you step out, we hit you with a full scale membership pitch, six months in advance and you will pay it. This is the idea. This is my idea. Yeah. And I assume that you anticipate scaling this scale idea. The scale, the funny scales?

The new unicorn in the wellness space. Yeah, this is it, baby. That mean 10 years from now, I will be the bad guy in a Netflix show with a billion dollars in my pocket. Do you have the charisma to be able to be the front man for this? Well, maybe not.

To walk into the soft banks and score those, you know, $200 million series B financing runs. I might need like a fake German or like an Israeli partner that can really get in there. Well, this plays into what we're gonna talk about later in the show about self mythologizing. No, but in all seriousness.

I like it. Yeah, thank you. I might come to you for during my Siri A. Is it Siri or series? Series, get your VC talk straightened out first. Series double A, series double A battery. Not double A. No.

No. But I'm honestly, I'm nervous to be in Calabasas today cause this is kind of Calabasas adjacent. It's ground zero right now. Will Smith could be anywhere. Yeah, we got the Will Smith situation, which we're gonna get into a little bit later in the show. Also adjacent to Taylor Hawkins,

who lives nearby as well. So lots to talk about. Lots to talk about, but can I say one more thing before I finish my end of the hellos? You know, you ever get off the mic and you wish you- First of all, hold on. What's the name of the spa endeavor? The name of my spa?

Yeah, what are you gonna call it? You look great, baby. I think you need like a techie word, like the one word that doesn't really mean anything. Okay, spa-tastic. Yeah, but that's not what I'm talking about. But with like an exclamation point. Put a pin in that and we'll figure that out later.

Let's spit ball it. All right, what else were you gonna say? Well, you ever get off the air and you just wish, there's one thing you wish you'd said. During the four by four recap, I never thanked everyone for the lovely messages and all the encouragement. I got a lot of encouragement from listeners

and people who are paying attention and I really appreciate it. It really does help. It makes a big difference in the motivation. I don't know. I'm sure Jason feels the same way. And I just wanted to thank everybody. Very cool. Yeah. Well said. Right on. Well, let's get into it. First thing I want to say is we just introduced the show with a little bit of a tweak on the theme song that you guys heard. You might be wondering where that came from. That is the very talented Noble Son, who's a Vancouver musician, as well as a voiceover actor. Apparently he's huge on TikTok.

He's got a massive TikTok following where he does voiceover type stuff and people share it like crazy. Anyway, he was the live musical act when I did this live event in Vancouver a couple months ago. I remember that. Maybe several months ago at this point where he introduced me for this event

that we did in a church, this live podcast. And he was kind enough to let us share it. And he was poking fun at me. And I thought it was all in good spirited fun. So some people can handle being poked fun at. Yeah. Some people can't. Well, another thing we're gonna put a pin in and talk about in a little bit.

Meanwhile, I guess I feel good. My swimming is ramping up. Yeah, what does that mean ramping up? You're going to like, I noticed on Instagram. More consistent, a little bit increase in the volume as I head towards this 12 and a half mile swim that I'm gonna do in June. Four and 5K swim sessions, right?

I mean, Chris, I check in with Chris, which is gonna be the latter part of this show and he'll talk us through the whys and the hows behind all of that. But actually the more I swim, the better I sleep, which means I feel better during the day. So it all feeds on itself. And I'm going to Miami later this week.

For a speaking thing, I'm gonna get there a little bit early and stay a day later so I can get in some good ocean swims and warm water. So I'm looking forward to that. Nice. Beware the jellies. I know that's a thing there for sure.

Hopefully it won't be too much of a problem. Anyway. I don't know in winter or this time of year, if it's that bad. I think it might be more of a later spring, summer thing. Yeah, I'm not sure either. I will find out and report back. All right. Meanwhile, the first thing that I wanna talk about

is the sudden death of Taylor Hawkins. Yes. Dead at 50. I have to say, I didn't see this one coming. The beloved drummer for the Foo Fighters. And apparently I just found out this morning, you told me this. I knew that he had been complaining of chest pains,

but apparently there were 10 drugs in his system. Well, I think I told you that I knew he had had a drug problem, cause it was in the obit I read. Cause I didn't, you know, I'm not- Like a drug problem that was in the past? He'd had it. And then I saw someone else on Twitter it was in the obit I read. Cause I didn't, you know, I'm not- Like a drug problem that was in the past? He'd had it. And then I saw someone else on Twitter who was in, that you retweeted, I think, or you had even said,

you know, check on people like, you know, a lot of people who've had, who've either relapsed or overdosed. Remember that you shared? Jessica Leahy. Right, Jessica Leahy's tweet. And I think she must've been referencing Taylor Hawkins. So that's when I kind of read his obit and found that out.

And it's like, there must be something to these rockers that they kind of like, they get to a certain age and they're questioning or even at any age questioning, like why me? Like, why, what do I deserve it or somehow? Well, I think you're reading into something that we don't really know anything about. Well, no, in his, he's quoted as saying something like that.

Oh, he is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow. Yeah, this is a tough one because I mean, he was 50, but he looked quite a bit younger than that, very vital. Looked great. A guy who seemed like he was super friendly with everybody. Nobody has a bad thing to say about him. And like you had mentioned about Calabasas,

like he lived in Hidden Hills, his family still lives there obviously. He had lived in Topanga before that. And I would see him out when I would go trail running, I'd see him out mountain biking all the time. Is that right? He's always out there. So this is a sad one, man. And it goes to that point of addiction doesn't discriminate,

doesn't matter who you are, how rich you are, how successful you are. And, you know, just a reminder. Or even if you've been sober for a period of time. Right, exactly. That must be like, what do you think about that as a sober person when you hear something like a relapse like this, that ends this way,

do you always feel like it's right there, it could happen at any time? Well, the adage is that your inner addict is doing pushups in the dark all the time, just waiting for that moment of weakness to express itself. And I experienced that when I relapsed, it was like it picked up and went from zero to 100 in the blink of an eye.

So it is beneath the surface at all times. And I know what that feels like. I'm reluctant to say anything specific to Taylor Hawkins cause I don't know anything about, had he been sober? Did he relapse? Has he been using the whole time? Who knows? I don't know.

But relapse is a part of recovery and people think of relapse as this huge failure. But in reality, the miracle is, each day that goes by that the addict or the alcoholic doesn't use or drink, and sort of keeping that in perspective because the yearning is so strong and it's cunning, baffling and powerful.

So it's not surprising when somebody who has a long-term sobriety relapses. So it's not like shocking in that regard, but it's just sad in this case, because he was somebody who did seemingly have it all and was loved by a lot of people and seemed at least when you would see him in photographs or in videos to be enjoying his life, right?

Which makes it confusing. Maybe it's the confusing part is that life is always, it's definitely harder for some people than others. And there's harder situations than others. I'm not saying otherwise, but like, there's always a blade, there's always a knife's edge, like nearby and every everyone's life.

It's not easy to deal with life. Nobody gets out of life alive, and nobody gets out of life without pain and suffering and obstacles. So we project onto these very successful people who are very good looking and have everything that we aspire to have ourselves. Oh, that's so sweet to say that about me.

And imagine that they live these lives that are without any kind of toil or consternation or pain. And it's just not the case. Like every single person that I've ever met, no matter their life circumstances is going through something and it's inescapable. So obviously he had some kind of issue that he was contending with and it's just sad

and it's heartbreaking to see this happen. He lived a great life. His mom gave him drums when he was a teenager, I think it was, or maybe even a little, like a 10 or 11. He was one of those kids that like was into rock, like before most people his age or into music before most people his age. And he was going to shows, you know,

and his like mom gave him that drum set and it just opened up his world. From what I read, he just always wanted to be a rock star. And that way he is like John Fushanti. Is it John? Yeah. John Fushanti. Yeah, long time hero. He was really young.

He was kind of a wonder kind guitarist that hooked up with Flea and then Flea brought him in. And he's the guy that was basically the guitarist on the Rick Rubin records, Californication and Blood, Sex, Sugar, Magic that kind of made the punk pop in a way. Right. But then they had to part ways with him.

Then he came back to the band. He's come back twice, I think. Yeah, so, but he's not in the band now. But same idea, like kind of always knew wanting to be a rocker. It's true of a lot of these guys. I mean, Tyler and Trapper. Trapper got his first drum set when he was, I don't know,

eight, seven, something like that. Tyler picked up a guitar when he was about the same age and never looked back. So I've seen that play out. I saw also that Travis Barker had shared something on social media about his history with Taylor. Like did Taylor grow up in Orange County? I don't know.

He said Taylor would go to his shows and they knew each other at a very young age. So, they've been in it for a long time. Wow. Anyway, so. Rest in peace. Yeah. What else do we wanna talk about? Oh, I wanted to quickly mention that Julie had a booth

for Shreemu at the Oscars gifting suite, which was really cool. Oh, cool. So she came back with all these stories of meeting all these cool people. That's amazing. The way these things work though, like they set up these hotel ballrooms or whatever, and there's a bunch of vendors in there and they usher these celebrities in.

And the idea is they get to partake in the products and all of that kind of stuff and get their picture taken with the owners of these companies. And it's kind of like a PR sort of thing. I think there was maybe only one Oscar nominee or two Oscar nominees of the whole thing though. It's generally all these other celebrities. Like there's this whole weird ecosystem.

Is it the days before or is it? Yeah, it was like Friday, Saturday before the Oscars. But who cars came by? Friend of the pod. Look at that. Karshaan Bukar and some other cool people. Saturday before the Oscars. But Utkarsh came by. Look at that. Utkarsh on Utkarsh. And some other cool people, Greg Grunberg, Viola Davis,

somebody from Euphoria that Julie met. Anyway, she had- Utkarsh was in my living room this weekend. He was. Well, he was on the television. Oh, right. Because you were watching the dropout? Yeah.

Yeah, we're gonna talk about that too. He's great. He's always great. Uckers is blowing up. He's inescapable now. He's in so much stuff. He's fabulous. He's always great.

He's always entertaining. He's always good. Yeah. You wanna talk to us about O's? Yes, O's Pearlman, O's the mentalist, attempts to break Robbie Ballinger's Central Park record. It's happening on April 8th. I don't know the exact dates,

but earlier this year or last year, was it last year? Yeah, middle last year. Before. I can't remember when Robbie did it. It was the fall. It was within the last year. When did you do your 10,000 event? It was right around then. That was like last spring. I can't remember.

Anyway, Robbie's first time around Central Park, running in Central Park at all ever, was apparently doing loops around Central Park. And he was trying to have the most miles logged or the most loops around Central Park during its opening hours. I guess it's open from 6 a.m. to 1 a.m. There's five hours closed.

And he wanted to have the most loops. He ended up running a hundred miles and that is the new record for Central Park. And O's is going to try to break that record. O's says that, you know, for him, like running Central Park is hallowed ground. He says he knows every pebble on that course. He's been doing, he's been running there so much

for his entire life. So he's gonna be doing it to raise money for Save the Children Ukraine. He has, is trying to raise $100,000. He's personally putting in 10, he told me, and he wants everyone to kick in. If you're interested, he says he's going to be doing loops all day from 6 a.m., starting at the Engineer's Gate, and you can join him for the loops.

He's going to be running at a pretty quick pace. He's a great runner. But you can join him. You loops. He's gonna be running at a pretty quick pace. He's a great runner, but you can join them. You can just kind of cheer him on. He'll finish around midnight or 1 a.m. He's gonna try to do a hundred miles plus one or two loops. So we'll see how he does. And he's in touch with Robbie.

Apparently Robbie's been really gracious and encouraging and wants him to break it. That's good to hear. Super cool. They're in communication over this thing. Yeah. Cause I'm very protective of Robbie. Oh yeah? Yeah, Robbie's my boy.

But O's we should say came here and did a podcast. It's an unbelievable podcast. When's that coming out? It has not published yet. So the audience is like, who's O's the mentalist? Oh, you'll find out. We talked about him the other day, but yeah, he's a very interesting human

who has a very particular skill that is bewildering and also happens to be this incredibly accomplished ultra marathon runner. So this is an interesting challenge that he set for himself. And given my friendship and allegiance with Robbie, it'll be interesting to see two podcast guests vie for the title of this Central Park Loop record.

But when you have former podcast guests who become friends really, I mean, you stay in contact. FOPs. When you have certain FOPs going head to head for something like this, has this happened before or is this the first time? I don't know if it's happened in this way before. Really?

But it's fun to see FOPs in the wild, like FOPs at the Oscars. That's always cool. Did you get any FOPs? There was a couple. Well, Travis Barker was playing drums on stage. He was he? And then Tony Hawk gave out an award

with Kelly Slater and Sean White. Okay, that's cool. Those two guys have been trying to get on the podcast and have come close a couple of times, but still- Kelly and Sean. Worked out, yeah. Who else? Maggie Baird, mom of Billie Eilish.

Oh yeah. Was caught on camera. FOP. By Billie and Finneas after they won their Oscar the other night, I don't know. Well- It's cool. It helps you feel more connected to what these people are doing out in the world.

It is cool. I think your listeners probably feel the same way. And this is the first time then FOPs are gunning for, well, they're not doing it at the same time. It's not quite a Colin versus Lou situation. No, no. But it is, O is trying to take Robbie's Central Park title. Yes. Again, that's Engineer's Gate, April Robbie's Central Park title. Yes.

Again, that's Engineer's Gate, April 8th, 6 a.m. Where's Engineer's Gate? It's at 90th and Fifth Avenue. And he's running counterclockwise. He says his crew will be set up at the gate with posters and signs. They're expecting hundreds of runners throughout the day. So that's what he's saying. It's being publicized to the local running clubs.

That's how it's gonna happen. Right on. All right, well, let's keep things moving. We have so many things to talk about. I think we're about to really step in it now. Why? Because we're gonna talk about NCAA swimming and in particular, the controversy surrounding Leah Thomas

and what has been transpiring in the world of women's competitive swimming and the sort of role of transgender athletes in sport. And this is a very heated topic, obviously. Opinions are pretty inflamed around this, which has made it difficult to talk about it in any kind of objective sense. Actually, we even talked about it weeks ago

about is it something that you wanna get into, right? Yeah, I have misgivings about even talking about it at all because I think people have their minds made up about this and it's certain to alienate certain people or set certain people off. But I also think it's a really important thing to talk about and it falls squarely into terrain that I care about as a competitive swimmer with a long history

and love for this sport. And also as somebody who cares deeply about human rights, civil rights, and the transgender movement. I have transgender people in my life that I care about, transgender people in my family. So I'm very close to this issue. And I feel like it would be cowardly to not talk about it on some level

as sort of nerve wracking as it can be to kind of unpack something that is so hotly debated at the moment. And I feel like this case is in some regard, like the ultimate test case, because perhaps it's not the first instance, but one of the first instances in which a pretty elite level swimmer decides to transition

from male to female, putting them in a position to, you know, succeed on a level that perhaps they wouldn't have been able to otherwise. I mean, you came up with a couple other test cases that I'm less familiar with. Yeah. There was an athlete named Juniper Eastwood who won running events from the University of Montana and CeCe Telfer at a place called Franklin Pierce University. She won the 2019 division two national championship in the 400 meter hurdles. So which is division two,

this is division one and swimming. It's a different level. It doesn't sound like CC Telfer was vying for the overall national championship. So it's a little bit different in that case. And it's just a more high profile case. And it's coming at a time when it's, this issue is in the forefront. Really the issue is this tension between inclusion and fair play

and whether or not these two things can coexist in any kind of meaningful way, right? Or perhaps they're irreconcilable in a case like this. So with respect to Leah, this is somebody who was born genetically male, started swimming at five on the men's teams. And I think part of the narrative that's out there that's misguided is that as a

male swimmer, it wasn't that successful. It wasn't that great, but actually pretty good. One of the Ivy League's best swimmers finished second in the men's 500, 1,000 and 1650 freestyle, the Ivy League championships as a sophomore. So when you look at them on paper as a male, weren't going to make the Olympic team, but still, you know, rather fast in the grand scheme of being a male competitive swimmer. Of course, began to transition. And then during the pandemic, when nobody was competing, used that year to continue this transitionary process

and emerged at the NCAA championships this past year with I think 34 months of hormone therapy under her belt. And prior to that, going to the Ivy league championships and like slaughtering everyone and winning all of these races, which I think put her on the map. And finally one of the fastest times, I think in the country at the 200 in that championship.

Correct, correct. And so that really kind of put the whole issue on the national news map and then made her sort of a hot potato for the right wing to kind of weaponize this controversy for political points. We've seen a lot of that lately. You mean blowhard politicians trying to use something

to make themselves more powerful? A little bit of that, right? Yeah. Some fear mongering around that. And this is a really tricky one because on the one hand, it's pretty clear from a purely objective point of view that this hormone therapy that Leah has undergone does not eradicate advantages

that she was able to accrue by living as a man for the better part of her life, right? Or going through puberty. Yeah, going through puberty. As a male. Developing the muscles and all of that that goes into that. And then 34 months of hormone therapy is not really gonna undo all of that.

So what is that just pills? I don't really even know actually. I think it's hormone therapy, but I don't know if it's, I think it's predominantly pills. I should know more about that than I do. She goes into the NCAA championships. And what's interesting is there was an expectation that she was just gonna wipe the record boards clean

and just crush everybody. But she actually won one event. She won the 500 free. Cause she won that first one and it seemed like it was setting up for that. But she didn't win any other events. And her time in the 500 free was quite shy of Katie Ledecky's time.

She went 433, Katie Ledecky's record is 424. It's a pretty significant difference. She got fifth in the 200 free. And was that the only other individual event that she- Wasn't she in the 100 as well or no? I think she swam in the 100. But she was never a contender in the 100, I don't think. But she did swim in the 100, I think.

Did she? I thought so, maybe I'm wrong. So just to break this down, when she was a male, she was 554th in the 200 free. And then she went to top ranked as a female. And her 500 free transitioning from male to female, her time difference was 6% slower as a result of that transition.

And when you look at the differences- In the 500 you're saying? In the 500, yes. And when you look at the differences- In the 500 you're saying? In the 500, yes. And when you look at the differences between male and female performances in that event, the range is typically about 10 to 11%. So her time difference being just 6% different means that you could infer from that

that she gained somewhere between four and 5% in advantage. Right? And you're saying in the 200, she went from 554th ranked as a male to the top ranked female, but that's before the championships. Yeah, because she got fifth. In the 500 free, her ranking went from 65th to first.

And then in the 200 free back to the 200, her time difference was just 3.76 slower in an event that typically has a seven to 8% advantage when you compare males to females. So there does seem to be a gap here. And I think it's important to point out that, first of all, not for a moment, do I suspect that Leah's intentions in transitioning

were anything but pure. Like there's a great Sports Illustrated article. In fact, I think it's the only article where she actually goes on the record to talk about this at all. And when you read that, you realize like, this is a person who really feels like they were in the wrong body.

And this transition is an attempt to be authentically who she is. Yeah, this is not a craving, lust for a medal. I'm gonna transition so that I can be better at my sport. I mean, that's ludicrous. That is ludicrous in this case. That is probably the fear driving a lot of these people nuts that are against.

Right, extrapolating on that, there's gonna be a wave of people who are gonna transition so they could dominate their sport. There's no evidence to suggest that anybody would actually do that. No. But that is part of the fear. That is the fear.

Issue, of course. So her motivations being pure in that regard, I think is important to recognize. And I think it's also important to recognize that she didn't break any rules. Like she adhered to all of the NCAA and USA swimming rules regarding her ability to compete. So to vilify her, I think is misplaced emotion.

We can have a conversation about the fairness of the rules that the NCAA has set up regarding this. But I don't think that that should be aimed at in Leah's direction. I read somewhere early on in all this before the NCAAs that in this came to third party. So I don't even know if she feels this way that she saw herself as a Jackie Robinson

and that rubbed me wrong. Yeah, that's a tough one. That's a tough one. That's yeah. I mean, it's a- Cause that's not fair. That's a tough one. That's a tough one. That's, yeah, I mean, it's a little bit ludicrous to compare that, but I don't know that that came from her. I don't know either. I hadn't heard that.

In terms of the fairness versus inclusion landscape though, obviously we want to create a situation in sport where everybody can be included. And we also wanna create a terrain in sport where everybody can be included. And we also wanna create a terrain in which it's fair for everybody. And I think there is a cogent argument to be made that this is not fair the way the rules are currently written.

And the science is still emerging, but to say that this type of hormone therapy for this amount of time will create a situation where the playing field is fair. I think we're seeing that that's not the case. And I'm very sympathetic to the female, the young women athletes who have to compete against Leah. And it's not a binary thing. Like this is a difficult thing

because I also believe that Leah should have the opportunity to compete. But how do we create a situation in which fairness becomes a rubric by which we're establishing that fair playing field? And I don't have the answer to that. It's a tough one. The way I kind of think about it is there's elite athletics and there's athletics. And when it comes to athletics, just youth athletics, inclusion is priority. You gotta let people be,

you gotta let people have access to it. I don't think your high school sports teams are elite. Sorry to say. So when it comes to a high school level, if there's someone who identifies in a certain way and they wanna compete, I say you open the door to them. Just because you're on a varsity team doesn't make you elite. When it comes to national championships and gold medals,

I think that's where it becomes a little bit dicier. I think one year on testosterone is not enough, obviously, but you had just painted a picture. It was actually 34 months. So it's closer to three years, which from my understanding is the Olympic standard that now the NCAA has just adopted. They've just changed from one year to three years.

I think it's 36 months now. Did they adopt that? Yeah, they just adopted. The NCAA just changed it to the Olympic standard. Right, it's a three-year period. So unless you begin your transition in high school, you're probably not gonna be able to compete in collegiate athletics.

But you were saying that Leah actually had 34 months of testosterone. Yeah, she had 34 months. So she was close to it. But she's a fifth year. Senior. Yeah, like, cause she redshirted a year. But she was close to it and she still was,

based on these numbers, had an advantage though. Yeah. So that 36 months is questionable. Right, that's what I'm saying. Like, I don't think that hormone therapy for X number of months fully considers all the variables that come into play in terms of performance. I agree.

You know, listen, if you're making a life choice like this, there are so many things that you have to go through. I never saw like competing for a gold medal as a human right. You know, like I just don't see it that way. Like if things fall, like we don't all have the human right to be in the Olympics. It's just not the way it is.

There are certain standards you have to meet. So if you're changing from male to female and you've gone through puberty as a male and you're trying to compete, I don't see how that's ever gonna be fair. I don't see, unless there's this body of science, like I don't, unless you've gone through surgery or something, I just don't see how you could ever convince me

that that's going to be fair. And I don't know if that's just my own bias. And I'm not against people competing in sports. I don't see age group. If you're an age group triathlete, more power to you, go for it. Doesn't concern me. If you're a varsity athlete in high school, cool.

When you're talking about the Olympics, I think that's where I draw the line, Olympics, NCAAs. Well, there's so many different permutations of this too. Like what happens if you're intersex or what happens if you, and then like a broader discussion about doping and just natural advantages, like Michael Phelps' gigantic feet and hands and wingspan. Like, is that a biological advantage?

Of course it is, but that's okay. Of course. Right? I mean, I think we're talking our way- These are on the extremes, right? I know, but I just think that the fact that we're trying to equate Michael Phelps' arms and legs to, it just shows you how kind of strange this discussion has become because it's so new

in the way humans have been kind of living for so long in society, it's so new. We're all wrestling with how to adjust and sports is pretty crusty and old. Like we're running from standards that it's not really that fluid, right? It wasn't that long ago when in swimming at least, they didn't have the mile for the women because they didn't think

that women could do it without suffering some kind of- Right, we're talking about like the most conservative, like sports are a conservative, I think, a very conservative place. So, in terms of like society has advanced very quickly, but then at the same time, we have these issues. Like, don't you remember the Koreatown spa that like there was a trans woman in the Koreatown spa naked and people who were guests at the spa women didn't like it. And then it became an issue. And then all of a sudden the spa didn't even kick anybody out, but it just became on the news. And then there were protesters in front of the spa.

We're trying to figure out the right way to operate given inclusion, but sports is a tough one because of its conservative nature. And because it's- Well, because the essence of sport is fairness, fair play. So reconciling fair play with inclusion becomes problematic. I mean, I do agree with you and like that idea that on the sliding scale of how you calibrate this at the amateur level,

at the younger level, inclusion is much more of a priority than it becomes as you kind of scale up into the more elite levels. And I don't know how you solve this problem. Obviously, you know, individual sports like swimming are one thing. It's a different thing when we're talking about combat sports and people can actually get injured.

That's a whole other sticky wicket. What I will say is I don't like how this particular scenario with Leah has become this political hot potato that is now paving the way for states to pass laws banning trans kids from competing on sports teams. A hundred percent. Which is, you know, we're talking about sports teams

where inclusion should be the priority, right? So the weaponization of this is really unsettling to me, but at the elite level, when we're talking about the NCAA championships or the Olympics or whatnot, I think we have a long way to go to figure out how to solve this. Perhaps there's something about rethinking how we categorize these things all together.

In boxing, we have weight classes, right? Is there something that we could be doing for other sports that would solve the inclusion problem and also ensure fairness for all. And again, I don't have a solution for that. You're saying like a trans division in the Olympics? Yeah, but even that's problematic. So I'm not saying that that's the solution,

but I think we need to get creative. And I don't know, I don't know. This one's really hard. I'm with you. I think that like the fact these politicians are passing, 10 states have passed laws banning trans kids is competing is a runway to unnecessary suicides. Like you're gonna have- For sure.

You're gonna have kids who take their own lives because they feel people look at them in a certain way and they feel like they don't have the same possibilities and that is just reprehensible. There is a Republican governor in Utah that tried to, he did veto a law that came through like this and they overrode his veto. So you're talking about a group of people

that are really just bullying people who are trying to figure out who they are. And that really sits, that does not sit well with me. And it's just rooted in fear. Yeah. Really? I do think there is this, the fear of will someone claim to be trans

and go through the hormones to win a gold medal? I definitely think there's people that could do that. I think humans, I just don't, I think there are humans that could do that. They would do that for a gold medal, I do. I think that that exists, but. I guess it exists. I don't see that being a rampant thing

or something that we need to really overly concern ourselves with. And I also think that, you know, this situation with Leah is relatively unique because at least in swimming, it's the first instance in which somebody who was actually quite good at their sport made that transition,

which creates, this is why this is such a inflamed situation. There's an interesting article in the Independent that takes a counterpoint on this. On the data? Basically, well, it basically argues that Leah didn't have this unfair advantage and kind of goes into the time differences like during this period of transition, there was like a year and a half when she didn't compete

because they were undergoing that hormone therapy and it was COVID and there were no competitions. Like they make an interesting argument that I think I'm not saying it's right or wrong. I just think that it goes to this issue of it being more complicated and nuanced than just pouncing on this is a hundred percent unfair because this is a man competing in women's sports

or the alternative, which is they follow the rules. So why is everybody so upset? Right, I'm with you. There is one trans athlete in elite athletics that I wanted to just shine a light on really quickly. And born a woman, born female and is now non-binary named Quinn, Canadian soccer, women's soccer team member, grew up playing soccer in girls and in women's, was a collegiate soccer player at Duke, became not identified as non-binary sometime before the Olympics

and was on the Canadian Olympic team that won gold medal in Tokyo. But hormone therapy? No hormone therapy because born female. So the Olympic rules are, if you are male and are transitioning to female, you have to go through hormone, you have to get those testosterone levels down. If you are male and are transitioning to female, you have to go through hormone, you have to get those testosterone levels down.

If you are born female, you can compete in men's sports anytime you want. The question you're asking, did Quinn take testosterone prior to going to Tokyo? I'm not sure, but it doesn't seem so in what I read. I really wanna get this right and understand it to the best of my ability, but it's tough.

And I'm 55 years old, like this is all new. And, you know- Yeah, to us it's new. Yeah, to us it's new, right? Not to date ourselves. It's a tough one. We're rolling with it. And I find myself, you know,

I'm somebody who always, you know, kind of lives in the gray and I can sympathize with both sides of this argument. It's a really tricky one to solve. I think that really when it comes down to is when you're talking about inclusion, the reason some people are upset is you wanna create the space for inclusion in all sports.

When you get to the elite levels, Leah being allowed to compete takes somebody else from being able to go to the finals, the NCAA finals. And that's probably where the angst comes in. I'm not saying you should be anxious about it. And it's understandable. Right, but I do get it. Nancy Hogshead McCarr,

Nancy Hogshead won three gold medals in the eighties in swimming. She was a superstar. She's now a lawyer who's been very active in like Title IX and women in sports issues. And she has been very outspoken and taking a pretty hard stand on this. And it's controversial.

Siding with the women saying this is unfair and kind of recruiting people to sign petitions and do all sorts of stuff. And she's taken a lot of flack for that for her pretty uncompromised position on this. And so her perspective is like fairness is more important than inclusion at this level. The other argument being like,

we have to make a place for everybody on some level, but how do we do that and make sure that it's fair? Well, I think that like, this whole idea of fairness has its limits because inclusion is important at the level of, but as you go up in tiers into- You mean inclusion has its limits, not fairness. Inclusion has its limits

when you get to the elite, right? People are cut all the time from teams. You should be allowed to compete. And then there's a point where you get to an elite level and it has to be based on some rules and fairness, right? I mean, I think. rules and fairness, right? I mean, I think so. I kind of side with kind of a gray sliding scale,

but I'd like to see the fact that politicians are getting involved in trying to cut this off at like the 10 year old level, 12 year old level. That I don't like. Is reprehensible. Yeah, we can agree on that. And we're not gonna solve this problem today. Thankfully we don't have to.

We don't. We can just talk about it on Mondays. I know. All right. Well, why don't we take a quick break? I'm going to put links up to a bunch of articles about Leah in the show notes. You guys should read them because it is a lot more nuanced. That's the main thing I wanna get across. Yeah, a lot more nuanced. And it is important to try to open our minds to. Yeah, for sure. All right, take a quick break and we'll be back with the Rolies.

All right, we're back. Just to put a button on the Leah Thomas discussion, we were talking during the break about the importance for injecting nuance into these conversations. And Adam, you made the point about just the need to disabuse people of these really like,

convinced takes that everybody has on everything. They are absolutely right. And they come down on one side or the other side. Cause I was sort of saying, do we handle that appropriately? Like, I don't feel like I really managed to articulate a succinct position on this, but because I don't know the answer to it.

And is that valuable or not valuable? I think in this day and age, the big problem we have is everyone's so political and so sure of their political position. It's like, I remember in the 90s when I first became an activist, I was the most political person I knew. And I thought that was a good thing.

And I think it was at the time because there were certain things that I felt strongly about and I wanted to help. Now, the problem is everyone is more political than I was in the 90s. And the thing I didn't really realize then, which I now realize is when you're political, even if it's for the common good,

you're kind of inherently a little bit of an asshole because you're not trying to harmonize, you're trying to influence. And that takes a certain amount of hardheadedness and a certain amount of being so sure of yourself. And I'm using asshole obviously as a joke, but it is kind of that way. And now we have a world

where people are so sure of their positions that nobody's listening. We live in a world of assholes, Rich. Well, certainty definitely takes the cake in terms of trying to get audience capture and attract people to your position so that you can further whatever cause it is that's important to you.

And we have lost sight or appreciation for the nuance and the gray. And this is a topic that is just brimming over with gray, I think. You say it so much more eloquently than I say it. I don't know, I feel like you just said exactly what I would have said. I just said exactly what I would have said. I think you said what I would have said.

All right, enough, we're done with this. We are gonna do the Rollies. The Rollies. The Rollies is the first inaugural award show on this podcast, I'm pretty excited about it. It is inspired by the Oscars. Today is Monday, yesterday by the Oscars. Today is Monday. Yesterday was the Oscars.

Our original sort of take on it was F the Oscars because we're doing the rollies. And then insanity broke loose and this cultural moment occurred that I feel like we have to talk about because it just happened. Of course, this podcast will not publish until Thursday, at which point there will have been a billion takes on this subject matter.

And perhaps people are already overly fatigued of even talking about it. But of course, what we're referring to is the Will Smith, Chris Rock incident, Will Smith walking on stage in the middle of the Oscars live telecast and slapping Chris Rock across the face in response to a joke that Chris Rock made about Will's wife Jada's shaved head.

I have to assume that Chris Rock was not aware that Jada is suffering from alopecia. We can grant him that, I think. You're gonna grant that? But this is such a alopecia. We can grant him that, I think. You're gonna grant that? But this is such a strange cultural moment. It was so odd. Like it's so surreal that this even occurred. Were you watching the Oscars?

I was watching it. And anybody who watched the live telecast realized that there was like, when this was going down, you saw the slap and then there was a glitch and the sound went out on the telecast. And then there was like when this was going down, you saw the slap and then there was a glitch and the sound went out on the telecast. And then there was like a hard cut to, you could see Will Smith and you could see a mouthing words. You couldn't hear what he was saying.

The sound picks back up with Chris Rock basically saying, well, that was crazy. Like perhaps the greatest moment in television history. And then proceeds to introduce the documentary award, leaving us to think that it was a scripted gag because that's kind of what it looked like. And I thought that that was the case until much later in the telecast when of course we're on our phones and I'm with my kids and we're scrolling through social media and it becomes evident that that

was not a scripted thing, that this actually happened. Yes. He actually slapped him. And then of course, you could hear the audio from the telecast in Australia and Japan that were being shared on social media where you could hear what Will Smith had to say. And it was rather shocking.

I don't even know where to begin with trying to understand what's going on here. And then of course, for Will Smith to then win best actor, get up and give this strange speech, is this the biggest celebrity meltdown in the history of Hollywood? Like what is happening? On air meltdown?

It is kind of like a newsroom on air meltdown flavor to it, right? Well, I mean, the sheer magnitude of perhaps the most beloved A-list celebrity in the world doing something like this is unthinkable. It's bizarre. I know, right? And I'm still wrapping my head around it. Like, again, it'll be Thursday when this goes up

and everybody will have kind of settled into how they feel about all of this, but I'm still like trying to wrap my head around. Like my brain is melting. Okay, so here's a question. Is it chivalrous to stick up for Jada in that moment? Yes, but violence is not the solution. So I think, well, here, first of all, here's what happened.

Like Chris Rock tells this joke, the GI Jane two joke. Yeah. Which by the way, can I stop you there for a second? Nobody even fucking heard of GI Jane at this point. Like you have to be old to even come up with that idea as a joke. I know what that joke is of course. And they're old enough to know that.

Right, right, I know. Demi Moore with the shaved head. So that makes you wonder, was Chris Rock free associating? Cause it's his age group, it's his pop culture moment when Demi Moore shaved her head and became GI Jane. And that was a big deal in the, I guess, early 90s, was it when that happened?

It was like, she was like the beautiful A-list star of the moment and she shaved her head and became GI Jane. Like, that's what he's joking about. But like anyone under the age of 40 has no fucking clue. Maybe not, but that's neither here nor there. No, the question, my point is, was that written for him or did he free associate? Cause that does matter.

Right, who knows? I don't know the answer to that. Maybe that will come out in the days intervening between when we're recording and when this gets released. But I think the point is, how do you respond in that moment? And so the camera cuts to Will Smith. He actually laughs at the joke.

You could see Jada who looks none too happy about this joke. So I suspect maybe Will then looked at his wife, realized she was unhappy and felt some compulsion to write this wrong or do something about it. If he were to walk on stage and had he, instead of slapping Chris Rock, asked for the microphone and said, "'Listen, that was inappropriate.

"'And I don't think that she deserves that, "'nor does anybody deserve to be talked to that way' "'or something like that,' he could have walked off like a hero. Yeah. But I think resorting to violence is never the solution to this and to do it on live television and in front of tens or if not hundreds of millions of

people live on the evening that is meant to be perhaps your most celebrated ever because everybody knows that you're gonna win best actor for King Richard. Yes. It's just strange because he's somebody who has built his career on being very intentional about how he interacts with the public. It just seems like a slip or a mishap

that would never occur. Well, he sucker slapped. He sucker slapped somebody. I mean, clearly he became overcome with emotion. He was completely out of control, which is so uncharacteristic for him. The shouting was even weirder. I found the shouting to be even weirder.

Yeah, yeah, I mean, that was where the real violent urge came out. Cause you saw his vibe, like the slap you think, okay, he's gonna go up there and slap him and then he's gonna chill out, but that's not what happened. And then his speech, which is sort of being characterized at least on Monday morning as an apology.

I mean, he didn't apologize to Chris Rock. And he talks about, you know, the pain of enduring criticism, being a celebrity over all of these years, and then proceeds to talk about being put on the planet to spread love and be this protector, and then drawing a comparison to his impulse to protect his family and his wife

to that of Richard Williams was very strange. And I don't know if you saw this, cause you didn't watch the telecast, right? Like they cut to the Williams sisters in the crowd, in the audience, and they're sitting there clearly, you know, not sure about how to sort of hold themselves or look like- Well, that's where my mind went right away.

It's like, cause I was watching- They look pretty uncomfortable to me. Yeah, I was watching a Bad Vegan to prepare for this podcast that we're doing right now. And because the Oscars have lost their luster for me and I wasn't even watching it. Although I did see King Richard, which I actually quite enjoyed.

And I got the texts that were coming in and I saw the stuff we went on and we watched the video and all of that. But the thing that I immediately thought of was poor Venus and Serena, because at the Critics' Choice Awards, when Jane Campion made her comment about how like she has it harder than the Williams sisters

because she competes against men. Do you remember that comment? Bringing them into her speech in a way that was uninvited and I think cruel and dismissive of these two all time greats. And then you have this, the Oscars. This is another moment for them to be at the Oscars and to be celebrated and they have to deal

with this bullshit. I mean, to me, it's like, it just shows you that draws the line between sports and Hollywood. And a lot of people like to mix them together. The funny part about this whole thing is when it comes to these awards, like they're them together. The funny part about this whole thing is when it comes to these awards, like they're completely subjective. It's not an objective victory, like a grand slam championship.

And so it's like, to me, it diminished everything. It really pulled the veil back on what this really is, which is just a bunch of people sit in a room pretending that these winners are actually winners when they're just popularity contests and some bullshit. Right, or that it's even really important. Yeah, right, exactly. But I still can't get over how surreal the whole thing was.

Surreal, and also this comparison to Richard Williams. I mean, the thing that's so absurd is that Richard Williams would never do that in a fucking million years. That's the thing. Never. Right? And had he done something like that, it would have destroyed everything that he was working towards for his thing. Never. Right? And had he done something like that, it would have destroyed everything

that he was working towards for his daughters. Yes. So that's a tough pill to swallow if you're the Venus sisters sitting in the audience watching this whole thing. The Williams sisters, yes. Yeah, the Williams sisters, sorry. And just Will Smith being this person who is known for being measured his whole career.

Yeah, clearly. And kind of a self-help guru personality on YouTube and the like. He's a YouTuber. I think this could be his descent to the black hat YouTuber that he always wanted to be. He might be trying to angle for a Jake Paul fight. He could be Jake Paul's next fight.

Well, one thing for sure, it's gonna be interesting to see like how this plays out in the intervening days. Like if you're on his publicity team doing crisis management right now, what advice are you giving him? Like, is there gonna be an apology tour? Like how is this gonna play out?

You wanna ask me my advice if I was on there? Here's my advice. What's your advice as a professional flack? Will, will, will show great concern and do nothing. Meaning just don't comment on it. Don't comment. Don't go on the talk show. No mas.

And just see what happens. Lay low, yeah. Chris Rock on the other hand needs to give an interview. I listened to Bill Simmons and Jimmy Kimmel were breaking this down on Bill Simmons podcast. And Kimmel said that Will Smith declined to be on the show, but who he really wanted to talk to was Chris Rock to get his perspective on this whole thing.

I mean, Chris Rock having to react to this in real time, looking clearly flustered at what had just transpired. I felt for him, he was actually a pro. Yeah, at the same time, I mean, clearly the awards cast was taking a bit like sort of a light version of what Ricky Gervais does, because they were making fun of the celebrities and kind of taking the piss out of them,

which is fine on some level, but clearly in Will Smith's mind, a line was crossed that he didn't appreciate. And there were some other kind of tasteless stuff that was going on throughout the evening. And you can argue about whether it was funny or not, but the manner in which he decided to handle this was not okay.

Well, you do wonder if there's some bad blood between them cause Chris Rock joked about Jada six years ago in 2016 on the Oscar stage about, because I guess- They had boycotted that year. They had boycotted the Oscars cause all the acting nominees were white. And then Chris Rock made the joke that Jada's on a TV show.

So that's like, you know, she wasn't even invited. She wouldn't have been invited anyway. So he made a more tasteless joke. And so maybe, maybe there's like this bad blood. Maybe they're just really not funny people and they're worth half a billion dollars, whatever they're worth. And they feel like they should be worshiped and not ridiculed.

And in my book, if you're worth half a billion dollars or anywhere close to that, you deserve to be ridiculed. And that's just part of your position. And that's what the money is for. And it's like, you deserve to be ridiculed. And that's just part of your position. And that's what the money is for. And it's like, you know, bottom line is this, you are wealthy, you are powerful, you're the top dog in Hollywood.

Awesome, hey, I loved, what's the zombie movie? I forget what it's called. That one I loved. And I loved, and I really liked King Richard, but the bottom line is you're not entitled to walk through life not made fun of. That's just the way it is. And if you're like, you've been through the ringer

for a long time, this is your big night. I mean, obviously you weren't handling your big night well. Like you were emotionally overwrought. You weren't chill, you know, you should have been more chill. So that's my take on it. I mean, like it is bizarre, but it does make you wonder about where his state of mind is and all of that.

Do you think he recovers and that everybody just moves on and forgets about this? Of course he recovers, he's bankable. You know, what you wonder is he has a big book out. He did a book, he collaborated with a subtle, yeah, with a subtle art guy. And they've got it in the top five on Amazon. Does his book sales go up?

Do they go down? Probably go up, right? I don't know. Interesting. We shall see. But yeah, fascinating. Like just unbelievable that that occurred. It's crazy. By the way, was that happening

while Sean Penn was smelting his Oscars or did Sean Penn not smelt? As far as I know, he has not yet smelted them because he said that he would smelt them publicly. So I assume there will be some kind of live cast or something like that. Okay. But listen, shout out to Sean Penn.

Whatever you think of this guy, like he walks his talk, like he's in Poland and he was in the Ukraine. He was, he was, he was. You know, boots on the ground. He was. Taking a stand saying, if they don't let Zelensky do a live stream

into the Oscars telecast that he will personally melt down his Oscars, smelt them. He said smelt. Yeah, he used the word smelt. Is he going to self smelt? I don't know. He's the type of guy that self smelts. I respect the hardcore stance on this.

Me too. I mean, the Oscars was never gonna let Zelensky beam in to the middle of this. That was never gonna let Zelensky beam in, you know, to the middle of this. That was never gonna happen. No, but I respect him even more if he self smelts. I don't want him to hire a smelter. Like, you know, it would be so Hollywood if he hired like the greatest smelter.

Smelting at home probably isn't like a wise or safe practice. It doesn't have to be home. You need a facility for smelting. You know what he should do? How hot does it have to get to melt that thing down? He needs to rent the Kodak theater and smelt it on stage. Smelt it on stage.

Well, I look forward to whatever media circus is gonna swirl around that public smelting. It's possible nobody shows up. I don't know. You think there'll be a lot of smelters? I would show up for that. I wanna see him do that. Listeners, we're gonna live stream from the smelting pan

from wherever that transpires, who knows? All right, we're gonna get off the Oscars, but final thing before we do so, friend of the pod, Lindsey Krauss, walked home with an Oscar. The queen of basketball was a New York Times op doc that she was a producer on. So congratulations to Lindsey.

Congratulations to Lindsey. And Steph Curry and Shaq were also producers. Yeah, that's true. Pretty wild. It's pretty cool. And I feel bad for Questlove who had to go up and accept his documentary award right after the whole thing.

Right. That guy's the coolest. That sucked. And his movie's phenomenal. I know. Yeah. Summer of Soul is the movie. Congrats to Questler.

All right, so we're gonna move on to the rollies. There's a lot of talk in the world of content creation about audience capture. Yes. For those that don't know, audience capture is when you configure your content to kind of give the audience what you think they want. Like you look at your metrics and you're like,

oh, when I do this controversial thing, or I take this hard stand, or I have this person on as a guest, I get more views and more attention. So I will do more of that. Right. So that I will get more audience. Well, what we're doing here today,

I would say is quite perhaps the opposite of that. Nobody wants this you're saying? I don't know that they do. So whatever the opposite of that. Nobody wants this, you're saying? I don't know that they do. So whatever the opposite of audience capture is, that is maybe what the rollies are. But the rollies- And this was your idea, by the way. This was my idea.

I soft pedaled this pitch last roll on two weeks ago and tried to get you to commit to some categories pretty much right away, but we finally cobbled together our categories. Right, so who knows whether this will work or not. But essentially the idea is in the spirit of the Oscars, if we were gonna do our own award show here on the RRP, what would that look like?

What would the categories be? And this is what we've come up with for better or worse. Some categories might be more interesting than others, but what we're gonna do is we're gonna go through the categories and the nominees, and we're gonna have a link in the show notes or in the description below, if you're watching on YouTube, that you will be able to click on that will pull up

like a Google form where you, the audience members, can vote and next roll on, we will announce the winners. I love that sound. This is great. Kick us off with the first category. I feel like we should have some kind of music cue that plays in. All right, ready?

Yeah. We're starting with a, just like in true Oscars form, we're coming out hot with best endurance performance in an RRP supporting role. The nominees are Davey. Multiple marathons and trail races. He went from zero to a goddamn good runner. Right. multiple marathons and trail races.

He went from zero to a goddamn good runner. Right, so this is a guy who literally hadn't run ever before. And in a year's time has suddenly become one of the bigger running enthusiasts you're ever gonna meet. With great times. He's got a running shoe collection that I would rival any professional runner at this point

and is obsessed. He even created his own Instagram account He's got a running shoe collection that I would rival any professional runner at this point and is obsessed. He even created his own Instagram account just for his running, maybe runs, which lands him in good stead as the first nominee. And a sub four hour marathon would have been even faster if he hadn't had a knee injury, ran through a knee injury. Correct.

Big Sur on the horizon and New York City Marathon, right? Coming up. And he ran that trail race with the other two nominees coming up. Blake, first ultra, great performance in the pool as well. Diversity. Yes, he's on his way to becoming the next great swim runner.

Right, so Otillo is next for Blake. He's been in the pool, He runs, he does it all. You know Blake, you love him. He's the guy behind the video camera here today. Davey is our photographer for those that are new. So yeah, Blake in good stead. Jason. Ooh.

His run streak is close to 300 days now. That's right. The Malibu half, multiple trail races. He's done the four by four by 48 twice. He is the king of consistency. He is the king of consistency. This is not new for Jason. Unlike Davey, Jason has been living this lifestyle

for a long time. So he gets kudos for that. Wow, that sounds like a- Never misses a day. Sounds like- Tackled many, many in adventure out there, too many to list. He's also the longest standing team member of the podcast.

Not that that plays into the endurance performance piece here, but to be an endurance athlete, you gotta go the distance, right? Jason has gone the distance. Sounds like someone's already decided who he's voting for. No, I'm just giving some context for people that don't know.

Jason is our longtime audio engineer and now kind of producer at large. And he's run a hundred milers. He has. And then the last nominee, as we go down the list of talent from top to bottom, and I do mean the bottom. These are in no particular order, but go ahead.

Adam, I think that's me. Alcatraz swimmer, and if you remember, he finished with a flourish by circling multiple sailboats in the harbor. Malibu half marathon, two times four by four by 48. Swims with sharks, he swims with whales. He doesn't swim fast, but he swims. There's a little embellishment here.

I mean, this is just not right. You came up with this category and you included yourself as a nominee. Wait, that was me who wrote this? Yeah. Oh, come on. Wait, am I allowed to be in this list? You may be, look, you're the on camera, on mic talent. People know who you are,

unlike some of the behind the scenes talent here. But on the subject of self mythologizing, which we're gonna get into here, this is a good, this is proof, evidence. Evidence of the American impulse. From cultivating your own image in furtherance of the American dream. I'm not saying.

Of one day winning a Rolly. I'm not saying vote for me, but what I'm saying is vote for me. A vote for me is a vote for you. All right. Okay. So there you go. Davey, Blake, Jason and Adam nominees for best endurance performance in an RRP supporting role.

And yes, like the Oscars, we come out of the gate with a supporting role award because that's how they do it there. I will say that of the four, I am the worst athlete, if that helps. Oh, now you say. Yeah, I will say. Based on the data.

Reverse psychology that you're gonna play? Based on the Strava data, it's pretty obvious. All right, next category. Okay. Moving along. Best endurance performance of the year by our RP guest. So we talked about how many nominees there should be for each category.

I know. I think you for each category. I know. I think you originally proposed three. I did. But fuck it, we have a bunch here. And that's just the way it is. We got Hellas Sidibe, who of course ran across the United States. We got Robbie Ballinger,

who we were talking about earlier, set the Central Park Loop record. Also did this Colorado Crush 52 14ers. And finished with the Leadville 100, I think, right? Yes. We have the great Courtney Dewalter who just won everything, basically a ton of stuff. It's really not even fair.

She's the goat, right? She's the goat, right? But then we have Harvey Lewis, recent podcast guest. He ran 354 miles in the Big Dog's Backyard Ultra. Holy cow. We have Leah Goldstein who won Ram first female victor in the cycling race Racecross America. Then we have the Iron Cowboy who did 101 consecutive

Iron Distance Triathlons. We were there with him. We were. It's quite a day. Timothy Olson who ran the Pacific coast trail. Pacific crest trail. Crest trail. He had that FKT.

Yeah, he got the FKT. FKT for the PCT. Fastest person to run the PCT. FKT in the PCT. He did the FKT in the PCT baby, Timothy Olson. Two more we got Lewis Pugh who swam in the Arctic circle. Yes, he swam in the Arctic to raise awareness of climate change in Greenland.

Popped into a roll on by Zoom from South Africa to share about that. And final nominee, Jason Caldwell for his Pacific row. Road across the Pacific from- Fastest, like crushed the record. Right, was this- From San Francisco to Hawaii? Yeah.

So, Hella Sidibe, Robbie Ballinger, Courtney Dewalter, Harvey Lewis, Leah Goldstein, Iron Cowboy, Timothy Olson, Lewis Pugh, and Jason Caldwell. That's a hell of a list. It is, that's a lot of nominees. I'm sure I left people off too who are deserving. See, that's how you do a list without favoritism, Rich, just in the future.

Just include as many, just include all of them? No, no, like the previous nomination list, your favoritism really came out. Right. Is my point. Here's an interesting category that we have. Coolest person of 2021. Who do we have?

Johnny Greenwood. Let me talk about him because that was my addition to these nominations. You're the Johnny Greenwood guy. Yeah, Johnny Greenwood. You guys know who Johnny Greenwood is, right? Radio head lead guitarist and keyboardist turned film composer. Yes.

So this guy, this is incredible. This is like Danny Elfman 2.0. Even better, his music is extraordinary. In the past he has scored, There Will Be Blood, The Master, Inherent Vice, Phantom Thread, clearly he's Paul Thomas Anderson's favorite, right? And this year alone, he wrote the film scores for Spencer,

Power of the Dog and Licorice Pizza, which is pretty incredible. While also being in the coolest band in the world. It's unbelievable. Are they still the coolest band in the world? I mean, if you ask me, they are. I don't know, depends on who you talk to. But we're a couple of old men.

I don't know what's going on. What about your kids? Well, for my boys, Radiohead is king. And will always be king. Fair enough. Johnny Greenwood actually this year ended up doing a fair amount of press like campaigning because he was nominated for an Oscar

for his score for Power of the Dog. And it was super interesting, these interviews, him talking about his process of how he thinks about writing music and how he scores these things. And with Power of the Dog, the idea was to create music that was somewhat haunting and foreboding while also being true to the sort of tropes of a Western.

And he wanted that like banjo sound, but he wanted it to sound like more like suspenseful. So a lot of the score is him playing essentially the way you would play a banjo, but playing it on a bass, like a cello. Interesting. And if you go back and listen to the music, like it's very unique and cool.

It is cool. So anyway, I just find that to be fascinating. And so that's why he is- Did you watch Power of the Dog? Yeah, I love that movie. Only got one Oscar, Jean Campion won for best director, but got shut out by Coda and a lot of the other categories.

Did you watch Coda? I have not seen Coda. Me neither. All right, why don't you hit me with the next nominee? So this nominee really probably belongs to the coolest person of 2022, but you had said, you know, whatever, put them, keep them in there. Rafa Nadal,

Rafael Nadal, Rafael Nadal. You're obsessed with Rafael Nadal. I'm a late comer obsessed with Rafael Nadal. Rafael Nadal, for those who live under a rock is one of the greatest tennis players of all time. He has the record for 21 grand slam titles he tied roger's record and then novak jokovic tied that so the three of them held it together and then novak was set to basically he was in the u.s open final and he could have had the record for himself and no one ever considers rafael nadal really because a lot of his titles came for the French open. Roger was always the greatest. Rafa was right there.

And then when Novak started to take over, everyone just considered, oh, we all have to now agree that Novak Djokovic, who's kind of this insufferable, strange view, he has strange views. He wouldn't take the vaccine. I'm not judging anybody. I'm just saying he wouldn't take the vaccine. I'm not judging anybody. I'm just saying he wouldn't take it. And because of that,

he couldn't compete in some of these grand slams that just happened. But even before that, he's just been this lightning rod for a number of reasons. And no one really liked him that much. He'd get booed a lot, even at the titles he was winning, Novak Djokovic. And then in the US Open, something magical happened.

Everyone loved him. We were all content to say, okay, he is the Novak Djokovic. And then in the US open, something magical happened. Everyone loved him. We were all content to say, okay, he is the greatest, but then he lost. And then this year in the Australian open coming off injury, Rafael Nadal won the 21st grand slam. Novak wouldn't compete because he wouldn't take the vaccine. They wouldn't let him in. There was a big high profile thing

where they almost let him in and then they didn't let him in. And when Rafa won it, no one thought he'd win it because he'd been hurt. He hadn't been playing. And I think there was this like sigh of relief in the tennis world and everyone just like loved Rafa

because they didn't have to admit that Novak was the best anymore. So the tennis world just loves this guy. I happened to just see him in Indian Wells and the place was just wild for him. I mean, like everywhere he went, every match he was in sold out. He's a full on rock star. But what I love about him isn't just that he's a great tennis player. It's that when he loses, he always talks about going back to practice. He's always says the right thing. He never blames

any circumstances or injuries for his losses. He's never a baby about the rules. He's always a straight shooter. And not only that, he takes the corniest sightseeing pictures ever. If you go on his Instagram, you can see him riding a bike with a goofy helmet around DC, taking pictures of himself in front of like the Lincoln Memorial,

Washington Monument. And like really funny, like dad, like very Griswoldian tourist photos. And so I think all of that- And not slapping anyone. He never slaps anyone. He's like the most humble, hardworking,

grittiest guy, never was considered the greatest. Roger was the greatest, then it was Novak. And now it really might be Rafa. And I think that's a beautiful thing. Case well stated. Thank you. All right. Next nominee, somebody whose name has come up

on this show in the past. Bo Burnham. Bo Burnham. He did make what I think is the most groundbreaking special of the last year. I just love inside his one man show. And I also love the fact that like, as soon as he made it and released it,

he just ghosted everybody and like didn't do any press. And you know, he would once in a while, like put up an Instagram post just to say like a song was available or when it went on streaming or whatever. But he did to my mind, unless I'm not aware, like no interviews over this at all, just put it up there and true to the kind of themes of that special just went back to living his life, I suspect.

You know. So there's something kind of ballsy and cool about that. 100%, it's the best comedy hour that I saw in many years. Yeah, one of the greatest, I think one of the greatest pieces of comedy I've ever seen. And it goes on the list with like live at the Sunset Strip, Richard Pryor, delirious,

baby Cobra Ali. I mean, whatever I'm mentioning there was, there's been a lot of great ones, but this is definitely on that list. Wouldn't you say? I would. Yeah, for sure. Next nominee, Nim's doll Persia.

Nim's die Persia. Is that how you say it? He just goes by Nimz though, right? He goes by Nimz. Nimz is this year had a big hit with 14 peaks on Netflix's documentary about breaking the record for all 14 8,000 meter peaks in the Himalayas. He broke a record that was at seven years or something.

And it was the great Messner. I think it was Rudolph Messner, pretty sure. And he broke the record and he did it in six months and he's Nepalese. And so the idea of course, that release comes on the heels of him leading a team of Nepalese climbers to the winter summit of K2 first ever to do that.

Yeah, first people to ever summit K2 in the wintertime. That was January, 2021. I was lucky enough to be able to cover that. And Nims, then he had 14 Peaks come on after that. That became one of the biggest hits on the streaming. Huge. Yeah, and it really goes into his backstory and you meet his wife and you see his commitment

to all the way up there's scenes where he's holding a climber who might be dying on the slopes and just his commitment to his team and his climbers and to working hard. And he's like a Rafa type and like a Goggins type, like that kind of grit. Earned and deserved his spot in the nominees, the Roley nominees of coolest people. And our last Roley nominee is?

Billie Eilish. Yes. Won the Oscar along with her brother Phineas last night for writing and performing the Bond theme song, No Time to Die. So how old is she now? I mean, she's so young. Let's see.

And she just absolutely dominates the music industry and now is an Oscar winner, dominated the Grammys, dominates the Oscars, put in an incredible performance last night and just has so much life ahead of her. And I just think she's super cool. But anyway, it was really cool to see her perform last night. And yeah.

20. 20. 20. Get out. That's what it says. Only 20. Born December 18th, 2001. That's Saj.

Crazy. How many Grammys does she have? Let's see. Like five or six or something. We are aware that most of these nominees are men and we have Billie Eilish woman, but Billie Eilish is a huge superstar in our defense. So we came up with a good list, I think here.

While you're looking up how many Grammy she has, I'm gonna launch into the next category, which is my favorite category by far. By six, six Grammys. Six Grammys, okay. This next category is best limited series about narcissistic self-mythologizing, AKA the scammer series.

So I don't know if you guys are all aware, but there is this trend in streaming media right now of these limited series and mini series that are about these, you know, amazing ascents to power, money and fame and then precipitous falls. The supernovas as it were. Basically supernovas, right? Yes.

Like you are a supernova. Wink, wink, nod, nod. And this category is just rife with so much deliciousness. The first nominee is super pumped by friend of the pod, Brian Koppelman and his writing and producing partner, David Levine. This is the story of Travis Kalanick and Uber. If you're into great dialogue, this is fantastic.

If you enjoy billions, this is right up your alley. And essentially the theme of this is the theme that recurs throughout the other nominees that we're gonna get to, which is the person who has the audacious dream and outsized ambition and a crazy amount of ego and charisma, the sort of requirements to manifest something massive into the world like Uber are also the qualities that ultimately precipitate your decline, right?

They ruin you because you can't get out of your own way. And that's the kind of recurring story motif amongst all of these. So- Does it start with him waiting for a cab that never comes? And that's the kind of recurring story motif amongst all of these. Does it start with him waiting for a cab that never comes? No, there's versions of that throughout though. You haven't watched this one yet. Well, no, because unfortunately this is the only one I haven't seen an episode of,

and that's because I don't get the show time at all. Get on that. I know. But yeah, it's Joseph Gordon-Levitt plays Travis Kalanick and it's fascinating to watch, something that most of us have used Uber and like how it came into being and how it sort of transplanted the taxi industry completely.

Like how did that happen? Well, it didn't happen by accident. It happened with great will and intention for better or worse. There you go. And aside, what's your favorite JGL film? What's the cancer one that he did? 50 50, that's mine too.

I love 50 50. Yeah, I love 50 50. With Seth Rogen and Anna Kendrick. Right. She's fabulous. Did you see mysterious skin, the Greg Iraqi movie? Missed that one. Yeah, all right. Anyway, all right, moving along.

We don't have all day here. We crashed. We crashed. So this is the WeWork story. Yes. Based on the podcast, we crashed. I don't know what to say about this one. Two podcast based nominees here.

Right, we do, right. I mean, this one is just off the rails over the top. I mean, Jared Leto is going full banana in this one with like prosthetic teeth and like the accent, the Israeli accent. I love his Israeli accent. Playing Adam Newman, who's partners with Miguel McKelvey, friend of the podcast.

It's sort of surreal to watch this knowing Miguel. Oh, you know Miguel. Yeah, I know Miguel and I would consider myself a friend of Miguel's. And when I'm watching this, I'm like, is this exactly how it happened? I'm not sure. But just watching Jared Leto,

like hang dog this whole thing is so out of control. I love it, I love him. And Anne Hathaway, I think this is really her show. Like her performance is actually pretty remarkable as Rebecca. She's always great. She's always great. It's a much more nuanced performance.

Like she has these- More reserved. Interesting ups and downs. How many episodes in are you at this point on this one? Just one. Oh yeah. So she gets, there's a lot of meat on the bone for Anne Hathaway in this one. So same story, like guy with, you know,

a huge ambition and unbelievable charisma, like wills this thing into the world against all odds. And ultimately it's his ego that gets in the way and precipitates his demise. It's interesting how this sort of shows up in all these different narratives that are about these, ostensibly tech companies.

I mean, WeWork isn't really a tech company, but it's part of that kind of Silicon Valley mindset of being a disruptor, right? It's interesting because you- Reimagining work. As we go through these and the next nominee isn't quite in the same level, but like in terms of like how you feel

in terms of sympathy towards the main character, I think of like Wolf of Wall Street, there's a gold standard. It's supposed to be an expose on how bad a guy Jordan Belfort is, but you end up loving him and all those cronies. Celebrating these people. And it is a weird thing.

It's like, am I supposed to be rooting for Travis Kalanick here? You do though, right? In the same way when you watch Billions, it's like, are you supposed to be rooting for these billionaires? It's hard. Everybody's acting terribly, right?

But yet you root for them. And it's sort of delicious, peppered with some, you know, a healthy dose of schadenfreude. Right. I think there's something about, and I wanna get into it once we get through the nominees, like why is it that we're attracted to these?

Like, is it because when we see them fall, it makes us feel better about our own lives? It's interesting, we should get into that. I mean, I think that the dropout, the Elizabeth Holmes story about Theranos. So that's the next one. The next nominee is the dropout. And then I think because of the way Amanda Seyfried plays

her and because of the writing, you see kind of the creepiness in the back of her mind. Like you're not feeling the sympathy, I think for her, as you do these others, because she's not a super woman. Like from the beginning, you see that she's really tortured. She's not gifted with charm and charisma. She has to develop an adaptive strategy

because she lacks that. So she cultivates this weird voice and the clothes that she's wearing to, you know, overcome that deficit that comes naturally to Adam Neumann and to Travis Kellan. Which makes it like, it's just. Which makes it more nuanced show. I think more interesting. It's much more nuanced.

And also I think what's different about the dropout versus We Crush and Super Pumped is they do spend a lot of time on her background. So you see her at a young age moving through the world for the better part of like an episode and a half before we even get into Theranos. Whereas the other shows just drop you into those tech companies or those companies like at their inception.

So I think that helps you be a little bit more empathetic to where she's coming from. And I think the dropout is perhaps, at least the most artfully crafted of all of these shows and just a knockout performance, I think, by Amanda Seyfried. Like when she's looking into the mirror and she's working on her voice,

like I don't know how many episodes you've been in. It's creepy and bizarre knowing how the story plays out. It's unbelievable. And we have to shout out Utkarsh, who has a great part in this series as a graduate student at Stanford who kind of ushers Elizabeth Holmes into this graduate lab. And then ultimately becomes one of the first employees

in Theranos. He's fabulous. He's always good. And again, based on the podcast, the dropout. So just want you guys to know in Hollywood, you can adapt roll on anytime you want. Just let us know, give us a call. All right, next nominee.

Inventing Anna. This is just straight up trash. This is just straight up trash. This is trash. This is the Shonda Rhimes massive hit. Huge hit. It's a spectacular hit. I know, the trashiest of all of them for sure. Starring the actress that we grew to love on Ozark.

She was like, she's the- She's phenomenal. Oh, she's great. What's her name? I forget her name. I should know her name. What's her name? Look that up.

Yeah, but this is perhaps the most crystallized version of what it means to self-mythologize because she arrives in New York intent upon taking over high society. Julia Garner. Yeah, Julia Garner. In this quest to kind of create this elite club

for high rollers and powerful Manhattanites. The Anna Delvey Foundation. Yes. It's delicious in that regard. And at times very hard to watch. It's not a good show. Certainly earned its place as a nominee on the subject of self-mythologizing.

It's not a good show. And by the way, the journalist isn't likable. There's very few likable characters. I would agree with that. Her lawyer, I think is the exception. He's likable. Honorable mention. Honorable mention.

Not a fictional take. We're gonna spend a couple minutes on this one. Theorable mention. Honorable mention. Not a fictional take. We're gonna spend a couple minutes on this one. The honorable mention, cause it doesn't quite fit into this genre. It's sort of askew, but I think it's still relevant. It's a documentary series. Which is different. The Netflix, I think this was the number one.

I don't know if it still is, but it was the number one show on Netflix. Was it? It is Bad Vegan. Bad Vegan. Bad Vegan. This is the story of Sarma Malangalis, who was the proprietor of Pure Food and Wine

in New York City, which was the kind of premier raw food establishment for many years. I've eaten there many, many times. Is it still a thing? No. Well, it's closed now because of what happened. But I don't know.

I mean, every time I would go to New York, I would go there and it had this beautiful back outdoor patio. The food was marvelous and amazing. She originally founded it with Matthew Kenny, who she met and worked on his cookbook. And then they worked together for a number of years. They split, Sarma took over the restaurant, owed Jeffrey Chaudhary, is that how you say his last name?

The restaurateur financier guy, like $2 million. And so was servicing that debt as she was trying to grow this business and then falls under the spell of this man. Yeah, ne'er do well, who turns out to be this unbelievable grifter who victimizes her, manipulates her, puts her through what they call

quote unquote cosmic endurance tests. And I'm not sure she's completely disabused herself of his spell. And I think that's the most interesting thing because you haven't watched this whole thing. No, I watched the first episode. So I remember when this whole thing went down, essentially Anthony Strangis, this guy,

manipulates her into giving him money. She begins siphoning money out of the restaurant and giving it to him for various purposes that end up going towards expensive travel and watches and gambling and the like. And it got so bad that she couldn't make payroll anymore. She's trying to rationalize this. It's a house of cards.

If topples on top of her, it's a longer story. And it's fascinating to watch this show and see how it all plays out. But she basically ends up going on the lam. She has a different version of what actually happened, but there's a warrant out for her arrest. Anthony and her like are holed up in a hotel room in Tennessee where Dolly World is.

Really? In a weird hotel room. Oh, you gotta watch the rest of this show. It's unbelievable. And they ended up catching her because Anthony orders a Domino's pizza and his name is on the credit card and they flagged it. And the cops descend on the hotel room and arrest them.

They both do jail time. She basically built pure food and wine out of $1.6 million that ended up in Anthony's strangers bank account. And the restaurant goes out of business. And it's just the strangest thing because she's this, you know, sort of face of raw vegan cuisine, beautiful girl, smart, went to Wharton and was really fed it, you know,

for being this big personality in the vegan movement and somebody who was well-liked by her staff and all of that. So this pivot from being a rational actor who is running a viable business to this strange world of being under the spell of this guy who was truly a grifter. Like how does that happen to an intelligent woman?

You wonder how is it these really smart people do really stupid things? Cause it's also stuff that like people from the outside looking in just from the first episode, you could see her like this guy's bad news. Like everybody who met him immediately knew he was bad news. And this, like this story when it happened was perfect for Vanity Fair, New York Magazine.

So there were a lot of long reads about this at the time. Like how could this possibly happen? And this raw vegan queen ultimately gets toppled by a Domino's pizza. She was very quick to say, I'm not the one who ordered the pizza, that was Anthony. That was her biggest offense in some people's minds. But what's interesting about this show

is that she participates in it. So it's a docu-series in which she's basically on camera giving her version of events to try to set the record straight. And so with that, I felt myself more sympathetic towards her than I had just in reading these articles. But I also have to say that when I got to the end of it, I really didn't feel like she had learned anything.

Like there was like an empathy piece that was missing. So I'm interested in how this is gonna land when you finish watching it. It's like, she gets to the other side of it and then she still calls up Strangest and wants to know how he's doing. And she understands intellectually, she'll never be able to borrow money again.

It's unlikely that she'll ever be able to have a restaurant again, but on some level also feels weirdly unapologetic or not quite emotionally connected. Like she's very robotic about the whole thing. I see a huge- Which left me feeling like a little bit empty about the whole affair.

Sorry to interrupt. I see a big parallel here that I hadn't thought of until you were talking about this. Smart people who fall under the sway of people that should be see-through to so many. Doesn't that sound like intelligent people that have fallen under the sway of a QAnon or a political figure or like smart people in Russia

that believe Putin's lies that they're not invading Ukraine or isn't that like, isn't that thing, doesn't that encapsulate so much about our current problems in terms of information and what we believe? Certainly there's gotta be similarities there. I mean, I think in the case of Elizabeth Holmes and Adam Newman and Travis Kalanick, these people were persuasive

because they were able to espouse the ambition that they had for these companies with a sense of like world-changing purpose. And also this idea that it would make everybody wildly powerful and rich, right? And that's what people wanna hear. So to the extent that you can charismatically deliver a message that somebody wants to hear,

I think that is relevant to your point. I think in the case of Sarma, part of the Anthony Strangis message was like this idea that like this idea that like this weird cosmic thing that like you're special and I'm gonna put you through these tests. And if you can get through them, like he fed her like a bill of goods. It's just like completely bizarre about

there's a plan for you and there'll be more money than you can ever need. Like she- And your dog will be immortal. Her culpability was that she, part of how she fell under the spell of this guy is that he was promising her great riches. Right.

And she wanted to believe that that would be the case, right? And so even when any outsider could look at this and say, there's something terribly wrong here, he would say, you have to stick with me. Just, you gotta wire me this $10,000 and I promise you in a month, you're gonna have everything that you want and you need,

and we're gonna make all your ambitions true. And this kept continuing until she was so deep in that the only way out for her was to convince herself that everything he was saying was true, including that her dog would be immortal. Immortal. Yeah, there was, and he had this other life or this past that she didn't really know anything about. Immortal. Yeah, there was, and he, you know, had this other life or this past that she didn't really know anything about.

Black ops. She was able to like, you know, like compartmentalize that. Black ops. Yeah, I mean, it's just the weirdest thing. Yeah. That this smart, intelligent person could be so manipulated. So perhaps we're all more easily manipulated

than we wanna believe. That's my point. And say, well, how do you think I've kept this job so long? How do you think Oz, the mentalist, So perhaps we're all more easily manipulated than we wanna believe. That's my point. How do you think I've kept this job so long? How do you think Oze the mentalist was able to get me to say things he wanted me to say? Are you still thinking about that? I am, can't stop thinking about it. But the fact that Sarma kind of gets all the way

to the other side of this and doesn't seem to really have had any kind of emotional growth arc, I think is one important takeaway from that. Do you wanna get back into the Schadenfreude or move along? Well, I think just in terms of like all of these shows, the meta commentary here is like, why are these so popular right now? Why is it that this is the kind of thing

that people like to watch? Why are these all coming out at the same time? And I think there's something very American about it. This idea of self-mythologizing, like you can come here and you can be anybody you wanna be. And so the incentive structure is to lie or elaborate or to leverage your charisma to convince people of doing what you want them to do

to kind of manifest this outsized dream. And that can go wrong when the house of cards falls on top of you and the truth is revealed. But the fact that these are popular indicates that we, there's something about us that's attracted to that. And perhaps that is the schadenfreude of seeing powerful rich people collapse on top of each other.

I don't know. Like a certain slap. Like a certain slap. Yeah, like now we're all talking about Will Smith. What's gonna happen to him? It's the car crash that you can't turn away from, I suppose, I don't know. Interesting.

All right, let's move on. Let's do some speed rounds through these next ones. We don't have to get too deep into it. Most RRP LARP like film of 2021, meaning these are the films that fall into the wheelhouse of one rich roll podcast. Right, if this podcast was a piece of filmed entertainment, who would be the nominees?

The Alpinist. Good one. 14 Peaks. Another good one. Don't Look Up. Perfect. Of course, Don't Look Up. Wait, we're living that right now.

Yeah. Roadrunner. Love it. Of course. The Rescue. From Friends of the Pod, Jimmy Chan and Chai Fosarelli. Dope Sick. Dope Sick.

About the opioid crisis in the Sacklers. That's right. The Alpinist is about the mountaineer in Canada. The ice climber. The ice climber, 14 Peaks is Nims. It's a good list. Also, I should say, we're probably missing stuff. So audience members who are outraged right now because we didn't include X, Y, or Z, go easy on us.

Yeah, go easy on us. This is the role. We're doing our best. Did I say at the outset of this podcast that we were gonna venture into the dunder headed? Yeah. That's what we're doing. That's where we are right now.

Don't take this too seriously. I've watched the first three of these. I did not yet see Roadrunner or The Rescue, which I should see. You haven't seen The Rescue? I know, and I covered the Thai cave thing. But you know what, I'm waiting for the, there's a couple of Thai cave series coming out on Netflix.

There's the fictional one, which is by the guys behind Crazy Rich Asians. And then there's also the documentary where it's focused on the Thai soccer team themselves because that's Jimmy and Chai didn't have access to the soccer team. But you gotta see see the rescue. The Thai rescue itself has spawned

like its own world of industry. Yes. I got to see it. I want to see it. It's just, you know, some of us are raising 19 months old, 19 months old, 19 month olds. Always with the excuse. I know that's so un-Rafa of me.

That really is. Next category, best book by an RRP guest in 2021. This was a tough one. Lots of books, lots of great guests. You know I love all my guests. You know I love all their books. I wouldn't have them on the podcast otherwise. So lots of nominees here.

And if your favorite isn't on this list, I get it. I didn't wanna take anybody off this list, but here's what we came up with. First nominee, Bravey by Alexi Pappas. Then we have Think Again by Adam Grant. Why We Sleep by Matthew Walker. Although that book was written a couple of years ago, even though Matthew was on the podcast last year.

So what are the rules here? There are no rules. It's whatever we say. I think you put that on. I did. I'm not blaming you. I'm just saying we're a little fast and loose. The rules lean towards inclusion,

except when they lean towards exclusion. The rules are whatever I say they are in the moment, subject to change. Next book, Dopamine Nation by Anna Lemke. Great book. Regeneration by Paul Hawken. Great one. Your Turn by Julie Lythcott Himes.

The Awakened Brain by Lisa Miller. Stolen Focus by Johann Hari. A nouveau classic. Yes, and Transcendence by Scott Barry Kaufman. That was written in 2021, although he was a guest in 2022. So again, you do your interpretation. I feel like Bravey's winning this. What's that?

I think it's gonna be between Bravey or Think Again, Adam Grant or Alexi. Maybe, we'll see. That's my feeling. We'll see. What's next? Best rich roll, nouveau, obsession. Sprouting, weightlifting, but heavy.

Yeah, heavy weights. All right, the nominees are sprouting. Sprouting, sprouting and you're, how's your sprouting going? It's falling off a little bit, I'll be honest. I saw that coming. Keep going. How about your weightlifting, you're lifting heavy.

Well, once I started swimming a lot, I had to back off the weights. So now I've just, I spend the winter getting strong and then now I'm in the pool. So I'm not doing as much in the gym as I was. But if that's your cup of tea, decoding the gurus. Big one. We haven't talked about it yet.

I wanted to give you a little place to talk about it. You love this podcast. I love these guys. Yeah, they're fantastic. Decoding the gurus podcast. Ice baths. You like ice baths? I do like ice baths.

Adam's swim mask. That is everybody's ultimate obsession, is it not? Should we just announce the winner of this category right now? There you go, folks. All right. All right, the next one. This next category, I don't know, this is your idea.

Yeah. I'm distancing myself from any responsibility for this category. But here it is, ready? Luckiest rocker of all time, Ringo Starr, George Harrison or Ringo Starr. Jason's gonna have a beef with you. Jason, care to comment.

All right, do what you will with that. Personally, I'm voting for George. Next. The dystopia you would most want to live in. I like this category. Personally, I'm voting for George. Next. The dystopia you would most want to live in. I like this category. Yeah, I like this one too. The nominees are Dune. With the giant caterpillars.

You wanna be mining spice? Is that the dystopian future for yourself? I'm just saying if you'd want to mine spice while dodging giant caterpillars, Dune is your world. Not caterpillars. W caterpillar. Worms. Worms. Sorry. Station 11. I mean, they seem to have fun in station 11.

They're putting on Shakespeare plays. Yeah. Cruising around. There's some jeopardy, but you know. Your kids might end up in a weird youth cult. That's the risk. Not a lot of creature comforts. You might've seen your entire family die. Next nominee, don't look up.

Don't look up. I mean, that's where we're all living right now. So you wanna stay where we are and just live in denial until we're all just eradicated overnight. I think so. I think I would choose three out of this. I think I would too. And the fourth.

The fourth is Squid Game. Squid Game is rough. Lots of riches on the upside if you win the Squid Game. Tough. And the fourth. The fourth is Squid Game. Squid Game is rough. Lots of riches on the upside. If you win the Squid Game. Tough to win that game. You gotta suffer through some bullshit though. Did you watch it finally? Of course.

That's so good. All right. Best performance by a scooper in a leading role. This is another Skolnick classic. The Cold Stone guy. What's that guy's name again? He's friends with Joanne. He's friends with Joanne. He's friends with Joanne.

Number one, number two, Adam at Ben and Jerry's. Of course it's Adam at Ben and Jerry's. I could win three rollies. You rigged it, you created the categories and then slipped yourself into them. I won three of these things. I'm disqualifying you. You know what?

This is about, this is more, this is the tension between inclusion and fair play, Adam. I'm gonna, if I win my rollies, I'm gonna smelt them on the air. There you go, all right. We'll live stream it here on the RIP. Best streaming series. No surprise, these nominees,

cause we've talked about them before. By the way, is anybody even listening or watching this anymore? Are you guys still there? Does anybody care? I think we could have clipped it a little bit. It's kind of ridiculous, right? But all right, we're gonna get through this, I promise. The nominees are White Lotus, we love it,

we've talked about it a lot. Station Eleven, we love it, we've talked about it a lot. The North Water, which I think is the Rafael Nadal of the category. Interesting. This is an incredible series that went underappreciated. I think Colin Farrell gives like, I wouldn't say the performance of his lifetime,

but an extraordinary performance. This is the show about the whaling ship in, I forget early the turn of the century. Yeah. And it's really extraordinary performance. This is the show about the whaling ship in, I forget, the turn of the century. Yeah. And it's really quite something. He's like the bad lieutenant on a whaling ship, right? Sort of. Yeah. With a heart of gold. Oh, really?

Kinda. Oh. Ruthless. You know how much I love In Bruges. Colin is a revelation in this show. Yeah. New edition, nominee Severance. Yeah, it's a 2022 show, but fuck it. I like it.

I think it's pretty good. You're not crazy about Severance, are you? I did not fall under the spell, the slow moving odd off beat spell. That's part of the gestalt. I know. You have to acclimate to this world. That's what you guys who like Severance,

you look down upon us. The heat gets turned up ever so slightly and then you wake up and you're at full boil. You know what I watch mostly? Peppa the pig? An elephant documentary on Disney. The Bernstein bears? No, it's that elephant documentary on Disney

narrated by Meghan Markle. Okay. We watch it constantly. Right. Yes. Have you seen succession? Because that's the other. You know, I've gotten into succession lately. Like starting from the beginning? Starting from the beginning. Right. Yes. Have you seen succession? Because that's the other. You know, I've gotten into succession lately. Like starting from the beginning?

Starting from the beginning. It's fantastic. Yes. All right, we're getting close to the end here. Next category, best filmed content period, series, film, whatever. Yeah. Who are the nominees here?

Bo Burnham, Inside. Check. Denis Villeneuve. That's so poorly pronounced. It's Denise Villeneuve. For Dune. Dune is my favorite movie of the year. I love Dune.

Really? Yeah. The North Water, back with the North Water. Then we have Severance, Station 11. And you slipped a rogue. Yeah, Rich's stealth TikTok account. You know, Adam, I wish I had like some finstas. That's what the kids call them, right?

You have some dance moves. Yeah. Wait till you guys see Rich roll tap dance. That will never be filmed. Okay, check the show notes. I think it's time now for the honor rolly, which is our, everybody, you guys know what this is, right?

The Lifetime Achievement Award. It is time for the honor rolly. For exceptionalism. And yeah, we're almost at two hours here. The Lifetime Achievement Award for the hardest working film professional. Who could this be, Adam? This is an effort-based award.

You know how much I like working hard to achieve your goal, overcoming the talent deficit gap. This is the Rafa Nadal of rollies. Right. There is only one person who could possibly earn this award. I'm gonna let you say it because I know he's, you know him personally. The award goes to

Mr. Frank Grillo. There you go. Come on, give it up for this guy. He's been around for a long time, but in 2021, he had eight films come out. Wow.

And he has currently 11 movies that are filming or in post-production. out. Wow. And he has currently 11 movies that are filming or in post-production. Damn. 11. Hardest working man in show business. And he has literally- Maybe Utkarsh could get the honor rollie next year. We'll see.

Oh, nice. Utkarsh, you hear that? I think. But this year, we gotta give it up for Frank Grillo. He's in Malta right now filming a movie. Trying to get him on the podcast. It's just a scheduling thing. Hopefully when he comes back from Maltaillo. He's in Malta right now, filming a movie, trying to get him on the podcast. It's just a scheduling thing.

Hopefully when he comes back from Malta. He's huge in Malta. He's enormous. He's huge. He's worldwide. He's gone worldwide. They call him worldwide Grillo. This guy knows how to act in an action movie.

This guy knows his action. All right, we've got one more category. All right, this is yours. All right, most overrated, more category. All right, this is yours. All right, most overrated, overhyped film of 2021. Let's be honest, there's only one nomination for this. Only one movie deserving of this title and that is The Matrix Resurrections because that movie was fucking terrible.

I was 20 minutes deep into that when I looked at April and April looked at me and we're like, nah. It hurts because I love the matrix so much. And I wanted so much to be good. And I know Lana Wachowski was trying to like sort of play with our expectations and upend what we thought that movie should be. So some of it's purposeful,

but it just didn't work for me at all. No, well, even the original sequels didn't work. So I'm not surprised this one didn't work. That's true. But there is a competition, a late coming competition in this category. Who's that? Adam's TikTok account.

Short lived as it was. You know, not such a good joke, but you know, I'll let you have it. Oh, wait, sorry. Are we gonna end it? Oh, you just took it off? All right, it's gone. The matrix resurrections.

The matrix resurrections. Just give them the rollie right now for that one. So how did this go? Should we do this again next year or was this a bust? I think we do it again. I think we do it bigger. I think we start earlier. We even do, I think we need to stage it. I think we do it bigger. I think we start earlier. We even do, I think we need to stage it.

I think we need some staging. We need to invite the honor rolly to come and speak. Wow. Yeah, I think we go bigger. I think we go deep. The production values are starting to escalate here. The costs. Let's just see how it lands with the audience first.

And if we get a bunch of hate mail, then we'll see. I know a great production designer that can help us with this. Who's that? Zuma. Okay. Yeah, you should see how he rearranges furniture. All right, enough, we're done.

That was the Rollies. I've been kicked off. Take from it what you will. It seems like you hated the Rollies. I just don't like, is this what people are tuning into the podcast for? I don't know, I don't know. But they will tell us.

We are taste makers. Are we? I'm not sure. Do you feel like you're actually making people's tastes, Adam? No, I feel like, you know what? This is the best, this is what I am. I am the kind of guy that at an art museum

makes jokes about the art. I am an art heckler. You're basically an old man Gen X. I'm the guy that goes to the art museums and can't not crack jokes about whatever I see in front of me. That's what I am. That's what I want you to know about me.

So therein is why I am so verbose. Verbose? Fill in the blank, maybe like tweeted us and let the audience fill in the blank there, what that adjective should be. My friend Kelton Reed, who is the Writer Files, has the Writer Files podcast, great podcast, said this about Will Smith's slap.

He said he wished it had been with a stiff glove, like a gentleman. What does that mean? You know, I challenge you to a duel, Christopher Rock. I like that. Yeah. Yes. Yeah, I don't know.

I don't really think that's the way that went down. No. But we have breaking news that the Academy is launching an investigation. That's just, we just found that out. Yeah, that is breaking news that the Academy is launching an investigation. We just found that out. Yeah, that is breaking. During the break. How dare you disparage my countess. What are they gonna uncover?

That it happened? The deeper motivation? No, I don't know. Anyway, all right, let's wrap this up. We're gonna put a pin in everything for now. And we're gonna turn our attention to my conversation with my coach, Chris Houth, who is gonna chime in as part of this accountability strategy.

This is self-serving, Adam. Like I figure if I have Chris come on every two weeks and I do the Zoom call with him on like my progress, that will hold me accountable for actually showing up to train and following through on this open water swim race that I've got planned. So the idea here is-

Are you gonna tell people the race? You haven't actually unveiled the course yet. I'm doing an open water swim race this summer. Let's just call it that. And so it's sort of on the one hand, like holding me accountable, but hopefully the second motivation here is to sort of on the one hand, like holding me accountable, but hopefully the second motivation here is to sort of pop the hood and let the audience in

on how the kind of vegan sausage is made. In other words, like how I work with and communicate and collaborate with Chris, who's been my coach since 2007, to hopefully give people a sense of how that dynamic works, how I think about and go about preparing for an athletic adventure in the midst of a busy life, but also hopefully provide a sense of how you guys,

the audience might think about and go about preparing for your own. So again, this is the first in what will likely be a series of brief check-ins with Chris in this lead up and I hope you enjoy it. So I guess I'm saying this is me and Adam signing off until next time. Thanks for joining us on today's absurdist jaunt.

We'll see you back here in a couple of weeks. Any parting words of wisdom, Adam? Don't slap strangers or friends. Wise advice. Under any circumstances? Yeah, I'd say under any circumstances, a slap is a very middle of the road gesture. You can do better.

Either like full blown punch in the face. Go full blown. Or no violence. Or stand down. I'm gonna think about that. Never slap. All right, in the meantime, let's go to me chopping it up with the great Chris Howarth. Good to see you, Chris.

I'm excited to embark upon this new little experiment here. Unfortunately, I can't get you down here every other week to do a proper in-person Coach's Corner, but what I can do is check in with you and do this segment where we are intending to kind of hold me accountable on this trajectory that I'm on to hopefully not drown and complete this 12 and a half mile open water

swim that I'm going to be doing in June. So I look forward to all of your words of wisdom to make sure that I'm going to be okay. Well, it's good to have you back, back on board the training train. It's been sort of since swim run, right? the training train. It's been sort of since swim run, right? It's true. It's true. I mean, that's the last time that I train for anything with any level of intentionality.

So it definitely feels good to put something on the calendar and have a sort of North star to guide how I'm making decisions about my fitness and the rest of my schedule every single day. Although my life is infinitely more complicated than it was even during O2LO and certainly a thousand fold more complicated than it was in a good way

than it was when I was training for Ultraman. So for me, the big challenge is being okay with not having a perfect track record in terms of being able to do every single workout and trying to hold it a little bit loose and be flexible and make sure that I'm having fun and it's nourishing my life as opposed to feeling really onerous and burdensome and a drag.

Yeah, that's the big difference too, right? That it doesn't drain you of energy. The workouts and the training and having a goal, an event to prepare for, that it's something that excites you, invigorates you, and you look forward to, and it awakens that passion and that curiosity again, versus something that just drags energy out of us

as well as, you know, it doesn't keep that same excitement and motivation going. You know, I'm not a big fan of motivation. I'm a fan of drive and something deeper to pull us through this training. But this something to return back to a deep part of you, quite honestly, and reawakening that swimming version of you will be fun.

Yeah, and a little bit scary, like just scary enough, right? That I can't be too much of a slacker. Exactly, and that's, I think you touched on it. That's one of the most important things of choosing a goal. It's gotta be a little bit scary. You have to have a little bit of fear in there or else you're not gonna take it and yourself

and the training as seriously. Right, but I am excited to just do a swim event. You know, we're both swimmers, that's our background. And then we both had our respective experiences in multi-sport, but I haven't done just a proper open water, super long distance swim in and of itself. And that's my strength, right? Like, why haven't I done this?

So I am kind of excited to see what that's gonna be like. I think you're gonna love it. I think you're really gonna enjoy it. Now, you'll see in the process to getting out there and doing a few test swims, you know my coaching strategies are always around simulations. And I think you'll enjoy those alone in lakes and so forth

and just getting comfortable with that all day swimming pace again and zoning out into that. Yeah, we're not quite there yet. We're not quite there. I hadn't swum with any regularity in a very long time. So my reintroduction to doing anything structured in the pool has been humbling to say the least. And before we even dive a little bit more into that,

I think it's worth talking a little bit about on the subject of kind of humility, I suppose, what just transpired with respect to Jesse Itzler doing Ultraman Arizona on ostensibly very little training and the guidance that you gave him. And what transpired on Instagram that we all watched with glee seeing him complete that very difficult race. And then we had talked earlier about your,

he credited you and thanked you profusely for the guidance that you gave him. And now you're on the receiving end of a lot of inbound emails and text messages. Like, and I can just imagine it's like, oh, Jesse did Ultraman Arizona on no training. How can I do Ultraman on no training? Or any endeavor on no training.

Yeah, which kind of misses the point, right? Yeah, it does. But that's the thing about him. And when we had that discussion in Minnesota two weeks prior to him doing Ultraman is that I know him well enough that he has a consistent training background. I know that he's been cycling some,

that he's always a consistent runner. And so he has a platform to launch from. This isn't literally at a zero. And he has a history to launch from. This isn't literally at a zero. And he has a history to do hard things, especially from a mental standpoint. So you put all those ingredients together, I felt pretty good about saying yes. Which, yeah, I can't imagine you would be so quick to say

with other people, like he does have that background and the mental game, the mental fortitude, which is kind of what he leads with. Yeah, and we discussed this sort of never defer approach. And quite honestly, it brought up bigger emotions and bigger thoughts as we were talking about it, even post the event. He's had a lot go on in the last week in his life,

but he also had the opportunity, he lost his father quite honestly. And so he had the opportunity by not deferring, doing this event with his father watching and still taking part in this visual activity and seeing him suffer and work through this. And he was so proud. And like, had he not done this, right?

Like it's just the universe, how bizarrely it aligned in this respect. I mean, I haven't even talked to him about this aspect, but never defer, at least go through the filter process, talk to the people around you and take chances because you never know what the adventure and the experience will bring. So it was a special, special event with him.

And yeah, you know what? We spoke every evening. I texted him during the event so that the crew could read him things and so on. But it's, you know, we knew that with fueling and hydration and the proper mindset, there is a way, a narrow way to navigate through this. And he did it.

He had to really thread the needle. I know that the swim was the scariest part for him. And he caught a bit of a break with that because the chop and the wind was so crazy that they called the swim off when I think he was about a kilometer or a kilometer and a half into it. And he got a bit of a break with that because the chop and the wind was so crazy that they called the swim off when I think he was about a kilometer or a kilometer and a half into it. And he got a bit of a breather before getting on the bike.

So I think that basically put him in a good position to be able to complete this thing. And he can always say that he is an ultra man and had he wavered, like you said, or deferred, perhaps it never would have come around again, or it would have come around again in a way where he would have been less suited or prepared to be able to complete it.

Well, you and I have talked about this before, and this ties us back to your event. It's more a question of our lives are not going to get emptier anytime soon. It's just, that's what I told you. I keep deluding myself about that though. I keep thinking like, it's gonna calm down, like to my grave, right?

No, no, and that's what I said to Jesse. I was like, do you think in a year from now, if you defer all of a sudden, your schedule is gonna be emptier? Like his schedule is filling up left and right. I can't imagine. All the projects, exactly. So I said, let's just take it now while you can. And you're healthy. You're not injured. It's a key ingredient for something like this.

And we'll find out. And he lived a true adventure. And that is where you don't know if this is a reality or if you can finish and you really have to dig into a place. He knows what an adventure, an endurance adventure is like already when you're trained for it. He's done enough of those. Well, guess what? He got to do something very few of us ever get to do. Do one untrained, like showing up at a hundred mile run with no training or something like that.

Like just imagine that. So that was something I was extremely proud of his grit and resolve with that he did not let any voice get in the way of his finish. Yeah, well, speaking of voices getting in the way, I've got lots of voices in my head that are angling to get in my way and often succeed in that regard.

But I am really encouraged and excited about this preparation phase that I'm in right now. So we've been working together with some degree of intentionality for only like, I don't know, four or six weeks at this point, I think. Yeah, exactly, yeah. And taking it very gradually, but just the consistency in the pool,

like it's already kicking in. I have so much muscle memory from swimming that I trust and know that with regularity, it will come back even though I'm getting up there in years. And it's been good to be able to just get in the pool every day, see just the tiniest bit of incremental improvement. And I feel myself doing what I always do,

which is why is this workout only 3,500? Like I can go 5,000. I got enough time to stack another 1,500 on top of this. And I have to remember, I remember this in our Ultraman ramp ups where I would start feeling really fit and get anxious about wanting to up the volume prematurely.

And always remembering that that slow build is part of building that strong foundation because it will get hard and it will get harder than you think it's gonna get in time, but at the right time. At the right time. And again, it's keeping you healthy and injury-free and motivated throughout.

And so many people will enter into a great event or an adventure or an experience. And the first, you know, 10, 14 days, they're all gung ho on the training. And next thing you know, it's like, oh, this is a lot more than my body can handle. And that my life schedule can handle, quite honestly. I jumped in a little bit too aggressively.

And so I was also noticing that with you sort of trying to cheat in a few 5,000 yard swims. So I want to keep in mind that we wanted to be sure that you know what we're doing and why. And so we're first building your endurance. And your endurance is going to be about doing and why. And so we're first building your endurance and your endurance is gonna be about doing the distance. And then it's gonna be about stamina, which is about doing the distance faster, right? That's the difference between the two. One is how long can you go?

And the other one is how long can you go fast or fast relative to what we're looking to do for the event that we're getting ready for. And so your confidence in being able to swim around 30,000 yards is what you're sort of thinking is going to revolve around us gently building our weeks so that then we can put the windows of training together where you have some extra time that we can do some serious volume in and you build that confidence in a healthy and enjoyable way. Because if your shoulders start hurting

or you're just depleted, that's not gonna do us any good in May, if your event is in June. We wanna avoid that. We wanna peak at the right time and also build the confidence along with it so that you hit the event knowing I can do this. I'm certainly not gonna head into this

with the kind of lack of preparation that Jesse approached Ultraman, but here we are at the beginning of May and this thing is in June. Like that's not that much time. It is a little bit scary. And I think that motivates me like, hey man, like we gotta make some hay here

or this is gonna be a disaster. Yeah, well, and that's why we're sort of gonna break it down into weeks where, well, let's say 12 weeks to go, 12, 13 weeks, no pressure. But that we have a long workout, a long aerobic workout that you feel comfortable and just not paying attention to pace, but just swim your all day pace and do some long sets. We'll do something where we're going to

do a lot of intervals and steady state work where you feel good about, once again, the stamina that you're building. So how fast you're holding the steady states, not best effort, but just this is faster than I usually would swim. But now I'm doing eight 200s or six 300s instead of just shorter or less volume. And then we'll do a workout with some speed and drills in it, you know, so that you get your power back and integrate all that into your swimming economy so that you get back into the pool and those thousands or 800s going at all day pace feel really comfortable, steady, and you have good traction on your pull through. Quick footnote, I said May, I meant April.

We're at the beginning of April, but either way, not that much time. It's been fun kind of on Instagram showing like, I write out the workout in a Sharpie and then I share it on Instagram stories. Cause I think people who aren't immersed in the world of swimming, think you just go to the pool and you swim back and forth

until your time is up. And that's very far from the truth. Everything is broken up into sets. Every set has an intention. And I'm always trying to read between the lines when I look at the sets that you come up for me and think, what is the purpose of this? Like, why is this set coming after this one? Oftentimes it's sort of like, oh, I see.

He wants me to ramp up to some tempo or do a little bit of hypoxic breath work and then go right into an aerobic set to see how my body responds and how long or quickly I can return to that baseline. So it's all about like different modalities for acclimating to an endurance race and then mixing it up with obviously

all the kind of technique based stuff, drills, kick, making sure all your body parts are being trained properly as well. Yeah, I mean, you gotta figure we can't go out and swim 22,000 yards each workout, right? Yeah, no way. You're getting ready, so. I couldn't do that once,

I couldn't do that at all right now. So therefore, how do we make a 4,000 yard workout affect when you're getting ready for 20,000 yards? And so creating fatigue pockets, intensity, breath work, things like that, and then returning to your go all day pace will highlight to you how you're progressing in your fitness, right? We're creating insertion points

that are supposed to fatigue you. And now how does that feel swimming a 400, a 300 or a steady set from that? And that's where we're at right now. Right. One of the other pieces to this that I kind of presented you with And that's where we're at right now. Right. One of the other pieces to this that I kind of presented you with

is the idea of building in some cycling into this for the sole purpose of expanding my aerobic, like zone two base, because I can ride my bike longer than I can swim in the pool right now. I can go out for four hours, five hours, maintain an elevated heart rate for an extended period of time

without risk of injuring myself unless I get hit by a car or something like that. Like I'm not gonna throw my shoulder out or anything like that. How do you think about that? Like how beneficial is that going to be? Should I just be in the pool and maximizing that because we have so little time

or do you think that I'm getting a value add from that? There is a value add, especially mentally with regards to, I know I can do a two, three, four hour activity right now where my heart rate is elevated. And so that is definitely part of it. I do that a lot with swimming and running as well. I will, I can go out when I do a coast ride, for example, and I ride my bike six to eight hours a day.

Well, that doesn't necessarily translate into my running ability, but it does translate to me that I know I can do something continuously for six to eight hours. And so that helps build my confidence for running and so forth. And so that's how I would mainly approach it. Yes, there is a fitness point in the beginning here

where your zone two and elevated heart rate, just even in an aerobic space is going to be helpful, delivering more oxygen to the working muscles and so forth. But eventually we're gonna hit a point where that is truly active recovery and mental space versus the value of time in the pool for sure. But we're not there yet. Right.

And I actually like that time out there because you're using different muscles and the oxygen, the stress is lower on the body so that then when you return to the pool, there's a more intentional focus around it. Right, and it also gives my upper body muscles a day to bounce back a little bit so that when I am in the pool, it's not just junk miles or what have you,

I can be a little bit more focused and fresh and try to get the most out of it. Yes, for sure. One question about zone two. So when I'm on the bike, like I know what my zones are heart rate wise, assuming they haven't varied dramatically from what they used to be.

But when I'm in the pool, I'm not wearing a heart rate monitor. I'm not really paying attention to that. I do have, I could, I could be like a total tried dork and wear that strap in the pool. Lots of people do that. Yeah. And you gotta stop your watch after every 150.

Come on, I want that file. And click it when you do the drills to make sure that it's logging your yardage accurately. For kicking. Yeah, exactly. But I do, because I have such a, like yourself, like such a robust background in swimming, like I'm pretty connected. Like I know what my kind of effort levels are

to achieve that. But if somebody is watching this or listening to it and they're thinking about how they're approaching their training in the pool, how does the conversation around zones apply to that person? That's where we often have an 800 or 600 or 500 at the end of a swim practice, sort of where you jump into your all day pace.

We wouldn't do it as much by heart rate because we're not going to be testing heart rate. But at the end of a workout, let's say you say, all right, I'm just going to no clock or get my time for a 500, but it's got to feel like my go all day swim pace. Like I'm going to go swim the next two, three hours at this pace. I would usually suggest at least 500. I personally do a thousand. And then that pace gives me a good idea of what my true aerobic zone to swimming pace would be. So for us, let's say just so that you get a number around it, let's say it's 120 right now, 121. Literally you just go all day pace. If I had to swim 10,000 straight right now, 121. Literally, you just go all day pace. If I had to swim 10,000 straight right now,

at what effort level would I start? And that's what I'm going to swim that 1,000 at. Well, over time, we'll notice from that sensation, what we usually know is heart rate when we're outside biking and running, that that time will come down. Same effort level that it's going down to a 118 and a 117. So we keep one sensation, the same output level, feel, RPE, and the time improves as we're getting fitter. But we want that at the end of the workout, otherwise our RPE and our sensation is gonna be a little bit off.

So that's why it's key to sort of burn off the anaerobic juices and especially muscle glycogen too. And then with those tanks empty, you get a better sense and RPE of what you are truly going at an aerobic pace at. Right. One of the techniques that you have deployed with me over the years that I think is really effective

is making sure that your key discipline is being trained under fatigue, right? So in Ultraman, you never want to go out and run on fresh legs because that's not going to be the experience at the race. You always want your runs to be on the heels of a very difficult cycling workout or swim workout so that every time you're running, you're tired. In this case, because this it's just one discipline, but it is so long, I suspect at some point during this training cycle,

you're gonna throw some stuff at me, like maybe a difficult ride, right before that swim. So how do you think about, or what do you have in store for me in terms of stressing me in that way? I love negative split swimming, right? Where you have to start the first half of whatever it is and make the second half faster.

So that you, A, you learn your pacing, but B, you really have to dig deep in order to make that second half faster. So you're coming into that second half of those 800s, of those thousands, of let's say 4,100s, each 10, you're progressing the interval. Things like that, where you were coming into the last 10 with a pretty good load on the arms and the body and the whole system. So similarly like that. Now, of course we can do it cycling, but it's a different type of fatigue.

It's actually, in my opinion, a little bit better running. But again, we don't need that for what you're planning to do. I think what you're gonna find is long swim workouts and then having a money set, as I like to call it, at the back end. So let's say you just swam a 6,000 or 7,000 yard workout. And then we do a money set and you're like, oh, really. Putting the main set at the very end of the workout.

Exactly, exactly. And again, that builds confidence that knowing at two hours in, I can still do X, Y, Z, that feels good. Right, one of the things that I always experience and I've shared this in the training logs with you, when I start to get back in the water with some consistency is that I begin with one gear.

Like I have an aerobic base, so I can get in and swim back and forth fine, but the minute I have to ramp it up and do something hard, my arms won't do what my brain is telling them to do because I don't have the strength. And to the extent that I can ramp it up a little bit, I can't sustain it for any significant period of time. Like I just completely fall apart.

So as we build that aerobic base and start throwing down some tempo sets and descending sets, et cetera, that starts to slowly come together. And then I start paying attention to what we were talking about earlier. Like how many gears do I have? Can I go to two gears and then three gears and four gears and how much control do I have? Like if I'm doing a set of descending one hundreds, can I really lock in

and make sure that I'm, you know, inching down in time with each one, um, in a consistent way. And the better adapted I am to doing that, the more fit I am and the more quickly my body will reset to baseline, particularly on short rest. That's a really good indicator that the fitness is starting to come online. As well as what you're also gonna notice is your understanding your feel of pace is to be critical in open water.

So you don't start too hot or too slow on event day. And you want to be able to know what that pace is no matter what, even if you're hungry, even if you're fatigued, even if you're whatever it is, whatever the burden on you is, that you still can click into whatever your open water swim pace is, or at least you can feel what 110 is like, what 115 is like, and what 120 is like, and so forth. I was talking to somebody today, he's doing a last man standing event. It's going to be critical that you know your pace. And the same thing for open water, there's no clock. So you wanna be able to just know, okay, I'm swimming pretty well,

I can feel my pace is going very well. One of the things that I have to get comfortable with is knowing that I'm gonna show up at this race not as fully prepared as I would like to. And that kicks in a lot of ego stuff. Like I don't wanna toe the line unless I know that I've put in 110% and earned the right to be there

and have taken it seriously, et cetera. And that's just not the reality of my busy life. So can I show up at 65% or 70%, depending on how busy I get. You're just like every one of my other athletes. I can't, and like still have fun and let go of all of that other bullshit because who the fuck cares?

Exactly. Well, your current 110%, that's the key. That's the key that unlocks this all. You cannot compare yourself to 25-year-old rich, 35-year-old rich, 45-year-old rich. It's your current 110%. If you feel you did what you could going into this event, it takes so much of a burden off. You can't be somebody different. You can only be you and your ability to do what you currently can. That's going to be critical. That's showing up with intention because you know, this is all I can do. I'm not futzing around watching Netflix all day. I've got a busy life,

but when I do show up, I gave it my best and come event day, you will have that to fall back upon. Is there always wishful thinking of, well, back in the day, I could have done this. Of course there is, but you can't be that person again. That's the past. And you're gonna not enjoy your day and this experience nearly as much if you're stuck in the past version of yourself.

I will say that it's a lot less time consuming experience nearly as much if you're stuck in the past version of yourself. I will say that it's a lot less time consuming to just swim than to do all the other nonsense that takes up so much time. It's like, wow, hour and a half and I'm done for the day. And it's just, yeah, it's on the way to work or whatever. It's like, that's not so bad. Yeah, the main thing is for me over the next week or so

or two weeks is that you really understand what we're doing, why we're doing it and get a good sense of where we're progressing to, right? And like we talked about, we have some longer workouts, we have some shorter stuff. If you have extra time, I'm gonna give you an extra workout or two and put it into training peaks

so that you can choose from the library and draw down from that. And that we sort of navigate through these next two, three weeks with some consistency that you feel good like I'm progressing. I'm not just treading water, I'm progressing. And you're gonna find that just being in the pool frequently is gonna automatically do that for you.

Yeah, so much of it is the consistency. But final thing I wanted to ask you is, what are my blind spots right now? When you're looking at my logs or you're thinking about getting me ready and you knowing me as well as you know me, like when you have a shake your head moment, like what is it that you wanna tell me?

Well, one, it's training where you are, not where you wanna be, right? That's the key. And that's when you jump ahead and do the 5,000 yards, because it feels good. And of course, in our mind, we go, okay, that's a quarter of the race, that's great, right? I can already in March do a quarter of my day.

But again, we're building along a plan. There's a path, there's a clarity to where we're heading. And so we got to trust the process, number one. And then secondly, you know, like you've brought both the things up already. The other one is be good to yourself. This is going to be fun. This is where you exhale. This is where we don't want to judge ourselves and compare ourselves to past versions, but just really embrace. Look at this. I get to swim outside in California on my way to work, feel great, have a lot of energy, fill my cup before I go to work in just good physical activity. It's something I love to do. We always get out of the

water feeling awesome and like invigorated. And that was pretty good. Yeah. Our arms might be a little tired, but the whole cleansing aspect of swimming is so powerful. And yeah, go with those two things. It's going to be fine. You're going to have a blast doing this event. I think you're really going to enjoy open water swimming. I'm excited for you and you will be ready. It's like what I told you when you just did wildflower triathlon way back many years ago. And you're like, dude, I'm thinking about Ultraman.

And I was like, I'll get you ready. This isn't a question of if, just a question of how. Right. Well, if nothing else, just having this conversation with you and sharing it publicly, which makes me feel very vulnerable, makes it so much less likely

that I'm gonna like cop out and not show up. So if it serves no other master other than to hold me accountable to show up, then it is, I know that's part of your dastardly plan, but it's effective. Yeah, it's training weeks, not workouts. Keep that in mind, training weeks, not workouts. So you just keep stacking the workouts,

you'll stack the training weeks and it'll all come together. Excellent, man. Well, I'll do my best and I'll check in with you in another two weeks publicly. And you can take my address and tell me what I'm doing wrong and tell me what I'm doing right.

And we'll just go from there. Remember, be intentional with the whole thing. And also as you're going through it, something I always like to tell athletes is, what does this look like when it's going well? So as you look ahead of your week of training, go, what does this look like when it's going well? So as you look ahead of your week of training, go, what does this week look like if it went really well? On Friday, how will I, or on Sunday,

how will I look back and go, you know what, that was a pretty good training week. It takes us out of the intervals and the pace and more bigger picture. I had a good week. Yeah, one of the things that you've done is kind of create a bunch of workouts. And then I say to you,

I'm not sure which days these are gonna work because my schedule is very fluid and being a little bit loose with that. Like just if you get these three things in on whatever days, and then if you have extra time, you can work this in, but if you can't, don't worry about it because the core is taken care of. Exactly.

Yeah. All right, my friend. Well, I appreciate the guidance as always. It's been how long, how many years has it been? We started around early, we started 2007, late 2006. Yeah. Is when this conversation began. I still have that first email.

Oh, you do? That introductory email from Gavin. Oh, I'd like to resurface that. I'm sure I have it too, but forward it to me. Like, yeah, that would be fun to see. Good man. Well, thank you for all the sound advice and guidance. Absolutely.

And our circle closed again. Gavin swam with me this morning. Oh, he did, wow. For those that don't know, my roommate, when I lived in San Francisco and the initial point of contact between the two of us, he is steady as they go. The most consistent human being I've ever met.

Yep, exactly. We love you, Gavin. Cool man, we'll talk to you soon. Thanks, Chris. All right, thanks, Rich. Peace. Unbelievable.