The Rich Roll Podcast - Roll On: True Endurance

Episode Date: February 18, 2021

How does one best prepare for a fitness challenge? What is the real value of testing one’s outer limits? And what constitutes true endurance? These are but a few of the questions explored in today��s edition of Roll On, wherein Adam Skolnick and I blather on matters both pertinent and possibly irrelevant. We share good news and bad. We perform some show and tell. And as always, we answer listener questions. For those new to the podcast, Adam Skolnick is an activist and veteran journalist best known as David Goggins’ Can’t Hurt Me, co-author. Adam has written about adventure sports, environmental issues, and civil rights for outlets such as The New York Times, Outside, ESPN, BBC, and Men’s Health. He is the author of One Breath and is currently hard at work on a novel. Some of the many topics explored in today’s conversation include: David Goggins’ 4 x 4 x 48 challenge; proper endurance training; what endurance teaches us about ourselves; Rich’s Instagram mask controversy; the rise of Clubhouse and the future of audio talk shows; and World Surf League’s ‘We Are One Ocean’ campaign In addition, we answer the following listener questions: How do you release anger and resentment? How do you find a partner with a similar lifestyle and goals (within a pandemic)? What is your leadership philosophy? How do you show up for your team? Thank you to Adam from Santa Monica, Madeleine from Redondo Beach, and Elizabeth from Nanaimo British Columbia for your questions. If you want your query discussed, drop it on our Facebook Page, or better yet leave a voicemail at [phone]. FULL BLOG & SHOW NOTES: bit.ly/richroll581 YouTube: bit.ly/rollon581 Peace + Plants, Rich

Hey everybody, welcome to the podcast. We're back today with another edition of Roll On. My home slice and trusty hype man, Adam Skolnick, riding sidecar as usual. Minds will be expanded. Souls will be soothed. But first, let's take care of business. We're brought to you today by recovery.com.

I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care, especially because, unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. It's a real problem. who created an online support portal designed to guide, to support, and empower you to find the ideal level of care tailored to your personal needs. They've partnered with the best global behavioral health providers to cover the full spectrum of behavioral health disorders,

including substance use disorders, depression, anxiety, eating disorders, gambling addictions, and more. Navigating their site is simple. Search by insurance coverage, location, treatment type, you name it. Plus, you can read reviews from former patients to help you decide. Whether you're a busy exec, a parent of a struggling teen, or battling addiction yourself, I feel you. I empathize with you. I really do. And they have treatment options for you. Life in recovery is wonderful. And recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help,

go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally

saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care, especially because unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. It's a real problem, Thank you. to support and empower you to find the ideal level of care tailored to your personal needs. They've partnered with the best global behavioral health providers to cover the full spectrum of behavioral health disorders, including substance use disorders, depression, anxiety, eating disorders, gambling addictions, and more. Navigating their site is simple.

Search by insurance coverage, location, treatment type, you name it. Plus, you can read reviews from former patients to help you decide. Whether you're a busy exec, a parent of a struggling teen, or battling addiction yourself, I feel you. I empathize with you. I really do. And they have treatment options for you. They really do. And they have treatment options for you. Life in recovery is wonderful. And recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey.

When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. Adam Skolnick, are you ready? It doesn't matter if I'm ready, I'm here. You are, and it's happening. We are back with a hotly awaited new edition of Roll On, wherein Mr. Skolnick and I blather and pontificate on matters. That sounds-

Both pertinent and possibly irrelevant, depending upon- Yeah, depending on the level of blather we get to. Good news and bad, a little show and tell. We answer some listener questions from our voicemail. Yes. If you're interested in having your question fielded by us, ring us up at 424-235-4626.

Quick reminder before we get into it, if you enjoy all the free content that we diligently toil here to create, it would be very meaningful if you could take a second to hit that subscribe button on YouTube or wherever you enjoy the audio incarnation of the show, leave us a comment, share the show with your friends or on social media.

Also another reminder that we recently created a clips channel on YouTube. So if you're into sampling the show or wanna indulge in just the nuggets, including we put up a discreet short videos of all the questions that we get and answer. So you can find those there. We drop those videos pretty much every day.

So check it out, link in the show notes and in the description below on YouTube, or you can just search Rich Roll podcast clips on YouTube. Also voicing change update. This is the podcast coffee table book that we created. Some of you might know that we ran out of stock just before Christmas, right in the midst of the gifting season.

That's great timing. Didn't have enough to ship, much to the chagrin of people who were looking to gift this. It is a great gift. That is one of the lessons learned when you're self-publishing, how many books do you order? But we have re-upped and the new stockpile is on route and should be here in the next couple of days.

So we'll be shipping in the next week. Second printing. Second printing, that's right. You were just signing a bunch of other books this weekend, right? I saw on your Instagram. Yeah, the cookbooks. The cookbooks.

How many printings have you done of that? I mean, well, those are with major publishers, so it's different. They always seem to have stock on hand. Okay. Yeah, we were signing those. We offer signed copies of all our books, "'Plant Power Away,' Plant Power Away Italia,'

"'This Cheese is Nuts,' Finding Ultra." You can get signed version of those through my website, richroll.com. And voicing change, you can learn more about and grab your signed or unsigned version of that book at richroll.com slash VC. I owe my wife a subscription to Julie's Cheese. Shreemu? Yeah.

You owe it to her? I've told her I was gonna buy. I promised her and I haven't signed up yet. Have you guys tried it yet? No. Oh, you haven't? No. Oh, remind haven't? No. Oh, remind me to bring a couple of wheels next time. Okay. You should at least try it.

Yeah. Yeah, it's fantastic. No, I know she wants it. She's killing it right now. That's the one thing she misses the most. Growing this company, she's got a lot of excitement around what she's doing, a lot of momentum.

So it's pretty cool. It is cool. Yeah. Is she gonna be in retailers at some stage soon? Well, you can get it at Air One right now. Okay. That's the only retailer. to be in retailers at some stage soon? Well, you can get it at Air One right now. That's the only retailer.

She just did a kind of collaboration with a monthly wine subscription service where they kind of combined a package, but it's mostly a direct to consumer subscription box model. There'll be some retail outlets at some point to be determined, but the focus of what she's trying to build is that direct to consumer model. It's a great model.

Yeah. Cool. So good to see you. Good to see you. Two weeks since we did this, how's it going? It's going good. Yeah, life is good. Just been busy and we're deep.

We're doing Sobriery at my house. Oh, you are? Yeah. It's always Sobriery at my house. I know, are? Yeah. It's always sobriery at my house. I know, I know. But I'm not sober, but- You picked the shortest month of the year to do it? That shows how not sober I am.

Okay. How's it going? We're on day 15. It's going good. Yeah, no, it's fine. I mean, I'm not, we don't indulge too much, although the, you know, just a cocktail or a glass of wine here or there. So it's not like it's a big lifestyle change for me.

Right. But it is like empty calories change, which is nice. So I do feel like I've gotten a little bit lighter. Well, this fits nicely into this fitness challenge that you've brought upon yourself. So let's talk about that. Let's do that. How do you wanna talk about it?

Well, tell me what you're working towards right here and we'll dive into it. Well, it's funny. I mean, I don't feel like I was necessarily working towards it, but we know David Goggins is doing his four by four by 48. I don't know if you listeners have not seen going on his Instagram. It's a challenge he does once a year. It's from March 5th to March 7th, starts at 8 p.m. on a Friday, ends the last run, I believe is 4 p.m. Sunday or 8 p.m. Sunday, I forget how it works. But every four hours from 8 p.m. Friday till it ends on Sunday for 48 hours, you run four miles.

And so at the end of that two day period, you've run 48 miles. And so I saw it happen last year. I was not gonna get involved in that. I think we had just done Otillo and I just, I wasn't gonna do it. This year I've done a lot more running and I decided I thought I would do it.

And then I kind of casually mentioned to David and he basically locked it down. And so I'm doing it. And the way I talk about it is I'm not, I don't say I'm trying to do it. I say I'm doing it. Yeah, you I talk about it is I'm not trying, I don't say I'm trying to do it. I say I'm doing it. Yeah, you can't just casually mention it to David. Like I'm thinking about doing it.

You know, if you do that, like he's gonna hold you to account. I wanna do this. So I so far haven't been training in any specific way. The last month I ran 110 miles. So this month, you know, it's been about 25 mile weeks basically for me, just in general.

And I feel like I'm capable of doing it. I don't know. I mean, my weeks, the way they work is there's typically a longer run on a Sunday and, you know, four to five mile run. Some of them with intervals, some of them just zone two during the week. So I think I plan on adding a little mileage leading up,

maybe doing a couple of 10 mile runs and stuff like that. But we had talked about something. So I want Rich's training plan. Well, first of all, you are working with a coach, right? Yeah. This Envol guy. Oh yes, I'm working with- Swim run champion. Yes, the swim run champion who owns Envol.

And let me make sure I have his name correct before I screw up. You don't know the full name of your coach? I call him Nikola. This is telling me a lot. That's called a character reveal. Is it really? I just know, now I know how deeply emotionally invested

you are in this. Wait, I wasn't ready. Nicholas Ramirez. Okay. And he's French actually, and lives in Sweden. And he's been talking to me about, he has not come back with a training plan yet for this. He's just been giving me like runs to do

and show up in my garment and I do them. And he so far has not been like personally coaching me hardcore on anything. Cause I don't have anything on the calendar. I told him about this. He has not given me anything specific other than to say, the main thing is in most people wanna lay on the couch after you do the four miles,

because you think you need a lot of rest, but he's saying, don't do that. Don't let your legs get heavy. Make sure you're not doing that. And so he's told me that. David gave me some advice on nutrition, like what he does anyway, smoothie before you run, then meals after you run kind of thing to make sure

and making sure you get ahead of your nutrition, you have stuff prepared ahead of time. The second day he says is very exhausting. So that's when people like take more naps on the second day he says is very exhausting. So, you know, that's when people like take more naps on the second day of it. Right, right. Meaning, I guess, Saturday to the Sunday. So I don't know.

I mean, I'm just, I am kind of winging it. Like I do, like I did Attila. I kind of wing. You're kind of like, well, I'm kind of doing this, but clearly there's no succinct plan in place right now. So I have lots of thoughts about this. I've winged my whole career and it's working out okay. Right, but what, Adam, what are you capable of

if you actually formulated a plan? Like how to write a five-year plan. That's the growth opportunity here. Well, there's lots of growth opportunities here. I mean, a few thoughts. I got plenty to say about this. I think what's great about talking about this is that we can talk in a more meta global way

about the power of endurance and endurance challenges and talk a little bit more at length about how you plan for approach and participate in challenges like this, which I think is something that a lot of the people who are watching or listening, spend a lot of time thinking about as well. So I think it's a good opportunity to do that.

First, I love this challenge for lots of reasons, not the least of which is, it's led by Commandant David Goggins, right? So he will hold you to account. And I love how in the little sign up area, it's like cost, zero dollars. Yeah, yes. Like this is all about you and you,

but also this sense that like David is peering at you from on high and is not gonna let you get away with anything which I think engenders a lot of excitement. And he checks in before each run. Right. With a motivational- It's a social media driven thing. It is. With a lot of engagement on his behalf.

And, but he also, you can sign up on his website so specifically get involved in it. You can raise money for a charity through it, but you don't have to sign up. He's like, it doesn't matter if you sign up. That's the whole point. Like you could do it your way. Right, it's not about that.

The second thing is that I love about this is that it's hard, but it's also accessible. Like it's very hard, but also it's extremely doable. It's similar to the 29, 0 29 thing. Like, oh, what do you just, you just hike up this mountain and you take the chair lift down. Like it doesn't seem that hard, but because you're trying to achieve

the elevation of Everest, like you're going through the night and it's not until you're like two thirds of the way into it that people realize like, oh, this is harder than I imagined. And I think this is similar in that regard. You're essentially running an ultra with breaks. It's a 48 mile run that is like an interval workout

on some level. But because it's only four miles at a time, it just feels doable. Like how hard is that? I've run four miles, like I can wrap my head around that. That's exactly how I got suckered into this. But I also think that it's worth taking seriously and looking at it as an opportunity

to more deeply connect with yourself as an athlete and to figure out like how you approach these things. And I think, so when is this, in early March? It's March 5th. March 5th. So my overall plan, by the way, the reason I'm doing any of this is because I am an older dad, right? And my plan is just to train for that,

like to stay around and stay active and be able to chase him down and not like have my late game fatherhood impact him in any way that's like, he's gonna even notice. It's a highly laudable goal. Like that should be the goal for you. That's my goal.

It's a great goal. There's only so much that we can do at this point, given that this challenge is only three weeks away. So it's not like you've got six months to prepare for this thing. You've done what you've done leading up to it. You've put in some miles, so you're comfortable running distances,

but you've never done anything that involves sleep deprivation or anything that involves this number of miles in such a compressed period of time. And so when I think about how you can best prepare yourself for this, there's a couple of things. First of all, nothing about this involves speed or power. This is all about resilience and persistent motion. You don't need to go out and do intervals. You don't need to run any faster than a conversational pace. And I would go so far as to suggest that a great method

to start to rehearse is a walk run method going into this. And for people that are runners talking about walking feels like a weakness, but when you do it properly, implementing a strategic walk run strategy into your training and your participation in the event will actually provide dividends beyond what you can imagine. Because if you're training your walk, you can actually walk faster than a jog, like over time.

And it provides your heart and your lungs the ability to get these mini recoveries within the runs. So I would suggest to you that the overarching kind of philosophy right now should be, how do I get my body ready to be in a state of persistent motion when it's very fatigued? So that means that you don't need to go out and do 12 or 15 mile runs.

You're better off going out for maybe an eight mile run where every mile or half mile you walk for five minutes. And the idea is getting through all these workouts, feeling fresh, and then perhaps having days where you're doing short runs. And I use the term run, you know, very broadly, like these can be very easy runs, light jogs, but you're doing two or three throughout the day.

So you're getting, you're acclimating your body to kind of always being moving. And it has nothing to do with being fast or being winded or anything like that. It's really about, can you keep moving forward when you're tired? Which brings up of course- How many days a week,

should I do that this weekend, next week? Well, I think in a broader context, I would approach this from a perspective of creating a periodized training program where you're building your base, then you're building strength, then you're getting a little bit of power, you're having your base, then you're building strength, then you're getting a little bit of power, you're having easy weeks,

and then you're having harder weeks, and then you enter into the phase where you're really getting race specific, and you're doing periodic simulation days, which I think you can still do and we can talk about, which is where you kind of mimic the actual event. Like four two mile runs, Like four two mile runs. So like, yeah, like when I was training for Ultraman,

like two months out, I picked three days or my coach Chris and I picked, you know, okay, this week on Friday, Saturday, Sunday, you're gonna do 70% of the Ultraman event. And then we're gonna have kind of a rest week. And then we're gonna build up towards over the next couple of weeks to a second race simulation weekend

where we're gonna do 80% of the distance. We're gonna repeat that, have a rest week and then build up again and then do 90% of it. And that serves many masters. First of all, it's giving your body a sense of what this endeavor is gonna look like and feel like. And also from a mental perspective,

once you complete those simulation weekends, you're like, oh, now I can wrap my head around this crazy thing that I never thought I could do before. In your case, I would say we're three weeks out. So maybe you can do pick two or three sim days between now and the event where you do, you know, 60% of the four by four by 48, where you're running like two miles every four hours

for, you know, 24 hours or something like that. And you're like, okay, I did that. And then maybe probably just, you were only three weeks out. So I would suggest maybe two SIM days. And then a second one where you do three miles, but maybe you do it every three hours for 24 hours. Like, I don't think there's a lot of benefit beyond the mental component of this to beating yourself up too much between now and then. Like I don't think there's a lot of benefit beyond

the mental component of this to beating yourself up too much between now and then you've kind of done the work. Like the work that you've done to date is pretty much gonna dictate, you can't cram for an endurance race is the point. So there's only so much you can do now. And the worst thing that you want is to be tired on the day that the event starts. You wanna be as fresh as possible.

So making sure that you're, you know, for seven to 10 days before this, you're really keeping it light. I think it's gonna be super important. And I don't know that there is any real benefit to subjecting yourself to sleep deprivation, which you're already experiencing because you have a baby. Yes, I have a baby that now has just popped his second tooth

and has learned to corkscrew in his crib. You're already not sleeping. So, but those, when you wake up in the middle of the night and you gotta put the baby back down, you might as well go out the door and run three miles before you go back to bed. Like that would be a cool experience just for mental resiliency to like be like,

oh, it's three in the morning and I went out for a run. Well, let me like, I actually think Zuma is gonna help me with this because I have been going on fumes for a while sleep wise. And when I was reporting on the K2 thing, I had two or three days in a row where I was up at four in the morning to like talk to Pakistan.

And it was so easy, cause I've been getting up at that hour. Like that's one of his hours that he gets up. And so I've been getting up at that hour and I was able to do it. And so I think, I do think that's gonna help me. Yeah, I think that that's a mental hump in the sense that you go through a training regimen

to prepare your body. So your body, you know body is prepared for the physical endeavor that you're doing, but interjecting sleep deprivation into your training program doesn't create the same benefit, at least in my experience. It's not like, oh, I did all this sleep deprivation training.

So now sleep deprivation is not a problem for me. There's something about sleep deprivation that it's gonna, no matter how much you've experienced that it's still very hard. And for me, like in my own experience, that's the hardest thing. Like when I did the Epic Five, like the sleep deprivation component of it

was really the most challenging for me personally. So I don't know how much benefit you get from subjecting yourself to that unnecessarily, other than, like I said, like the mental strength that you garner from having weathered that. So this is gonna be like three weeks is a tricky time because you wanna get some interesting training in

that's gonna get your head and your body right, but you can't do too much because you don't wanna be tired. And I think that you could wake up tomorrow and do this. Like, I don't know that you need to, cause I do think this is mostly a mental thing. You think my base- You ran a hundred miles last month.

So, you know, you have some fitness with running and I don't think that you need to be that fit to do this cause you could literally walk all of these four miles for this whole thing and still get it done. It's really a mental thing. And I think it's interesting that the first run starts at like what, like 4 PM or something like that? No, 8 PM. Oh, 8 PM.

Okay, so what's cool about that is that you're gonna go through the evening and sleep deprivation aspect of this on the front end of the experience. Like if the first run was at eight o'clock in the morning, then you're dealing with the nighttime and all of that when you're much more fatigued. So I think that was smart that he set it up that way. And that caters to new people who haven't done-

And it caters to the nine to fivers mostly. Yeah, exactly. So that they can do it and still be you know, be in their job or whatever. So I think that's cool. I think, you know, in a broader sense, talking about endurance, true endurance, you know, everybody knows who's listened to this show that I'm a giant proponent of zone two training.

And I think what you get with that, it's really to really be effective with this zone two philosophy, you have to play the long game. It's not something that you can develop in a short period of time, literally to reach your kind of potential and capacity with that philosophy.

It takes a couple of years, like you can't even do it in a season. Cause I'm like at 1120 a mile now with my zone two and it started at like 1215 and I'm like- This is why people burn out on it because they get frustrated. When am I gonna get fast? They just wanna feel, yeah, they just wanna feel fast.

So they abandon it before they get the benefit of it, which is why it's a very particular type of discipline, the kind of discipline that requires you to hold back. And some people- So you think like, excuse me, you think like in another year, that 11.15 could be 10.30 or something like that. I can guarantee you that it would be at least that,

but it requires very strict adherence and it demands consistency. Like you can't train three days a week in zone two and expect to get a great return. It's only when you're doing it day in, day out, day in, day out. day in, day out, because the whole idea is you're not really wearing yourself out so that you can get up

and do it again the next day. So is it five days a week, okay? Yeah, and what that program would look like wouldn't mean that you're running every single day, but there would be some multi-sport activity that would contribute to you developing that endurance capacity, which then in turn creates greater mitochondrial density and your ability for yourselves to produce energy

at a lower burn rate. And it helps enhance your body's ability to utilize and metabolize oxygen for fuel and fat for fuel, all of these things that contribute to true endurance. So that this is something that Chris would always say to me, when you're truly, truly fit in an endurance context. And I look at your Garmin data and I look at your heart rate graph,

it should be flat all the way across. Like if you're doing a 10 mile run, like how, how straight can you make that heart rate graph line such that it's wavering as little as possible? And he would say to me, I shouldn't be able to tell whether you're running uphill, flat or downhill because that heart rate should always be the same. And when you have that zone two fitness,

let's say you're running on a flat and your heart rates 142, you should be able to start climbing that grade, maintain that 142 heart rate. You're gonna slow down a little bit, but the idea is keeping that heart rate as flat as possible, like right on point. For me, it would be like 142, for somebody else it's gonna be somebody else.

And to maintain that on a descent as well. And when you have this, then when you get into some speed work and some tempo work, you can dial it up like, okay, I'm gonna do, I'm gonna run 20 minutes at zone two. And then I'm gonna do a round of intervals where I run, you know, two minutes at a, you know, 160 heart rate, and then bring it back down for a minute

and then go back up again. When you're really fit in an endurance context, you can ramp up for that tempo effort and then your heart rate will quickly settle back down into that zone two range. When you don't have that true endurance fitness, it's gonna take a long time for that heart rate to come back down.

And that's how I can like just internally, just being connected to my body when I know I'm not fit or yeah, I'm in a really good fitness place right now. But it is playing the long game, you know, and it does require a certain kind of discipline and an unbelievable amount of consistency to get there and adherence to a well thought out periodized schedule. Like ideally, when you're gonna tackle a big challenge,

something that intimidates you, that scares you, something that is outside of your comfort zone that you've never done before, you do wanna pick a date on the calendar that is six to eight months out. And then you can really create and craft a program that will maximize your physical potential and what you can achieve in that specific period of time.

Like a longer swim run or something like that. Yeah, if you were gonna do a full Otillo, the 70 kilometer or something like that, like, do you have a year to plan? Well, if we have a year, like we can really, get into the details of it. And if you take it seriously and prioritize it, then I think people are always amazed

at what they can accomplish. I think, so my strategy, I do have a course kind of in mind and there's a little gradual, I mean, you would call of in mind and there's a little gradual, I mean, you would call it flat, but there's a gradual uphill and a gradual downhill just in the streets all around me. So I thought like when I get tired,

I could walk the uphill and then jog the downhill and walk the uphill and jog the downhill as my kind of safe. Yeah, you told me about this the other day and I thought that was ill-advised. I think that you do have access to some pretty flat terrain around your house. We talked about specifically what that course would be,

but I would just keep it as flat and as simple as possible. Like there's no need to add a complexifier into this with all kinds of different grades and try to figure that out. I would just, I would keep it on the flats. Well, these are, like I said, you'd call it flat, but like those streets have like a little bit uptake, like you gain like 50 feet one way

and you lose 50 feet the other way. But what is your thinking in terms of why that would be advantageous? Well, just running them regularly because it's become like the pandemic run because when you couldn't go on the bike path and everyone was like clogging all these streets. So these are very wide streets

that you can get away from people. So it became like close by. And would that be the course that you would use for the event itself? Yes, yes, yes. I don't think that's smart because the downhills you think you're resting, but those can be like, especially late in the game,

those are treacherous. Like it's the downhills that can beat you up just as much as the ascents. And I think you would just be better off keeping it really simple and on the flats and you build in these like walk periods and you pace yourself out and understand that, whatever four mile leg that you're on, it's not understand that, you know,

whatever four mile leg that you're on, it's not about that four mile leg, it's about the four mile leg that you're gonna be tackling six hours later. So you're in a state of constant motion, but also constant conservation, right? You're always thinking about what's coming several hours later.

You're mindful of what you're doing in the moment, but it's all about like, how can I, there's an equation that you have to run. Like what is the minimal amount of output in this moment so that I'm not spending too much time on this four mile leg, because the more time it takes you to do that, the less rest you're getting, right?

Right. But you don't wanna overextend yourself because you're gonna meet the reaper six hours later and crash and burn. So constant conservation, trying to be as efficient as possible. And that's why I think the walk run method can be super beneficial.

So every mile. Because if you start building, like I would say like, you know, like this doesn't have to be for all your runs leading up to this, but if you start practicing doing these intervals where yeah, I'm gonna run for a mile and then I'm gonna walk for 30 seconds

or something like that and then run. And when you're walking, be mindful of how you're walking. Like you can train your walk such that the walk can be almost as fast as your jog. And you're not using nearly as much energy and your lungs and your heart get a chance to rest. But it's something that you train like anything else. So I think paying attention to that will be huge for you

getting into this. I've been doing those, like I said, these intervals where it's 30, 60, 90 seconds, two minutes up to five minutes at a tempo. And then either a back to zone two or a walk. And this is stuff that Nicola has sent me. And I do like those. And there's always a 15 to 20 minutes zone two warm up

and a 10 minutes zone two cool down on the end. Do you think that that is helpful with zone two development? I think it's fine in the broader context of developing you as an athlete and as a runner. But with respect to this event, I don't know that doing tempo runs at this point, three weeks out is gonna benefit you in any meaningful way.

And in fact, it could just wear you out and make you tired. And I don't want you tired going into this. So there's that aspect to it. Let's spend a few minutes talking about food and feeling strategies. I think David's advice is solid and very good in that before you run, you wanna be intaking calories that are easily metabolized

and are not gonna cause stomach upset or require all your blood to go to your gut. When you have to go out and run, that would be bad. You get that food coma and you get lethargic and it's very difficult to move. So smoothies in the period leading up to a run and then getting more bulk calories, maybe 30 minutes after you finish your run,

I think is a good strategy. And I also like what he said, and I believe this wholeheartedly that when you're fueling, you're not fueling for that next four miles, you're fueling for the four mile interval that's coming six hours later. You're always thinking about getting ahead on your nutrition.

When you're gonna be, you're looking at 48 miles of running. So chances are you're gonna be running a caloric deficit no matter what, no matter how many calories you put in, you're probably gonna end up burning more than you eat. Maybe not, depending upon the athlete. But given that, you wanna be ahead on your calories. So it's not about that four, like I just said,

I'm repeating myself, but this is the point that I wanna make. The instinct will occur like, I'm not hungry, I feel good. Like I feel light. I don't wanna feel heavy when I go on and do this four mile run. So I'll just eat later or I'll just, I'll bag that smoothie or that like rice bowl

or whatever it is. And I'll just do it after the next one. That happens to me, because I don't like to feel weighed down. The problem is then for two more intervals down the line, you're gonna bonk out because you didn't fuel properly all along. So you wanna test this in your training

and figure out everybody's different. Like what is the right caloric intake for me that won't upset my stomach, that will fuel me and allow me to feel good and won't weigh me down that I can metabolize? Because everybody's a little bit different with this. And then also paying attention to your electrolyte balance, like what products are you gonna be using?

Are you gonna be using like a performance calorie drink? Like you can something that's like a carbohydrate based drink that you can take calories in while you're running. Are you gonna be taking in electrolytes? What does that look like? Is there a product in mind that you have for that? Like all of these things you should test because some people they drink Gatorade

and they're throwing up or other people have no problem with that. I think coconut water is good. Like I like coconut water. I've started using this product Element. They've sponsored the podcast. So they sent me a bunch of this stuff and that seems to work really well as an electrolyte.

Just a powder that you put in your water. A lot of those electrolyte products are super sweet. There's too much sugar in them. They cause a stomach upset. This doesn't have that. it works really well for me. I can give you some of those samples, but you might wanna check that out. And I just know for myself,

you know, when you're cycling, like doing ultra training or racing, you can, it's easier to, it's easier to take in calories. You're sitting down, it's a different posture, running very hard, right? But there are products that are very calorically dense in liquid form that you could start to experiment with.

Like I mentioned, UCAN is one, CarboPro, like these products are pretty good for that. It's a maltodextrin product. Sorry, when I was doing the 10 or 11 mile runs more regularly, like in the hills, I would bring like a lemon water, maple syrup based kind of thing that I'd make myself. I think this is good.

So I'm not gonna do that, I guess you're saying. No, I would start, I would get a couple of different products and try them out and see what suits you. Element. And I can help you with that, yeah, but element and you can would be two that I would suggest a couple of different products and try them out and see what suits you. Elements. And I can help you with that. Yeah, but element and you can would be two that I would suggest for that. What about smoothies like before or?

I think that's good. I think you should, if you had, and again, it goes back to what's gonna upset your stomach. Like if you have a green smoothie, that's too green, your body might revolt. Chances are you're gonna get some diarrhea. That just kind of happens with this sort of thing. But you gotta figure out what works for you.

But I would suggest foods that are nourishing and easy on the stomach and calorically dense. Like I would have baked sweet potatoes, which are kind of like nature's gels. Like you can chew on them. They go down really easy. Bananas are great. I mean, just your average, you know,

Yukon potato is pretty good as well. Cooking some of those things, some almond butter, you know, almond butter, you know, stuff like that. Avocados work well too. These are my favorite foods. So you asked me the question what I'm looking to learn about myself. You know, stuff like that, avocados work well too. These are my favorite foods. So. You asked me the question when I'm looking to learn about myself.

It's a very good question. Yeah, like why are you doing this? I feel like a couple of things come to mind. One is my feet are not great. Like I have orthotics. I still have a mild plantar fasciitis in my left foot. I had a ankle sprain, a high ankle sprain. I took a week off and then got back to running.

I've taken this year, and especially since Zima was born, and looking at how injuries affect me in a very different way than I had for a long time. When I first had a foot problem, like I hadn't run, I had a bad case of plantar fasciitis in 2012. Yeah, 2012. And I could barely walk.

Like I was walking like an 80 year old man after a six mile hike, you know, it was like, it was really kind of scared me. I'm like, how bad is this? And gradually, so I stopped running completely. And then I found, you know, my swimming became my main thing, but it never really had the,

it was zone zero, like you said. Yeah. The way I was doing it. So I got back into running. Actually, my wife, when we first started hanging out, she got me back into running. And I was surprised I was able to do it because I was worried about my feet.

And then I ended up having tendonitis and broke a bone in my left foot after a run and didn't realize it and walked on it and like had to go to Argentina for work and was walking on it for like a month. And by the time I got back, it was so bad that like it required PT and it required these orthotics.

But gradually from a treadmill to a trail, I was able to start running again. And it was Otillo that got me running on the street again off a treadmill to a trail, I was able to start running again. And it was Otillo that got me running on the street again off a treadmill. And so that's kind of recent history had me always really worried about my foot. If it hurt at all, I'd take two days off. You know, like I was very much babying it.

And then just like, you know, knowing what David goes through with his body and it doesn't stop him talking to you, you don't get stopped by much. So I just have taken a different view on it. And so I, yeah, when I've sprained, my ankle was a bad sprain. Like I knew it right when it happened,

it was a terrible sprain. I've had a million times because I played basketball my whole life. And I was like, fuck, right when I'm getting back in shape after the baby came, like no way, no way am I gonna stop running cause of this ankle. And I gave myself, like, I didn't even take a day off.

I was in the water swimming the next day and I took a week off of running and I went back to it, taped it up, just started doing it. And so I'm kind of interested to see if I can pull this off with two wheels that aren't tip top, you know, at my age. And so I'm interested. So here's what's interesting about what you just said. I asked you, what is it, why are you doing this?

And what is it that you wanna learn? And then you just recounted your history of injuries and your tenuous relationship with endurance sports. But what you didn't do is tell me what it is that you're seeking to learn about yourself. Like you made a general statement. I wanna see if I can do it, of course, but that's on the surface level.

What I'm saying is you have an opportunity here. You're gonna go deep into the hole at some point. You're gonna have moments where you're gonna wanna quit. It's gonna be dark. You're gonna have moments where you're gonna wanna quit. It's gonna be dark, you're gonna be tired. So what is it about this that you're drawn to? And how can you look at this as a lever for growth in some area of your life?

Because I want you going into this challenge, thinking about some blind spot in your life or some aspect of how you're living that perhaps isn't working in the way that you would like it to, because you can problem solve here. You're gonna go through something very difficult. You're gonna come out the other side of it.

I have full confidence that you're gonna be able to do it. But what's most critical is how you evolve and grow as a result of this. And what is it that you can learn about yourself? And I'm not saying that you should have an answer to that, but I think that you should be asking yourself those questions because this is the gift that keeps giving with endurance challenges.

They are this lever for personal growth. And I think to just do it and say, well, that was fun and cool, that's fine. But you're missing the broader opportunity to do a little bit of personal inventory here. And all of that solitary time in the training and in the participation of the event itself gives you that space that you just don't get

as a young dad with a baby when life is kind of coming at you really quickly. So understand that alone is a gift. And then what you make of that experience, how it sets in motion some level of momentum or create some type of foundation upon which you can build, I think is really the blessing of these types of adventures.

Interesting. Yeah. I guess I don't have the deeper meaning answer just yet. I guess I don't. I mean, I was looking at it as just, I'd like to do it. I'd like to, I feel like I'll get some power out of accomplishing something like this,

a 50 mile run basically. I was thinking of actually adding 0.18 or whatever to every run to make it an even 50. Let's just do this and get through it. Like you're gonna make it more difficult early on and then you jeopardize like capsizing the whole ship. So just do four. Just do it.

Yeah, and if at the end of 48 miles, you're still like, I feel awesome, then go do another four miles, but don't make it unnecessarily difficult early on. Okay, I'll stick with this. Look, I feel pretty good. Like I keep things pretty simple in my life from an emotional standpoint.

Like I don't try to overanalyze my life. I really pretty good. Like I keep things pretty simple in my life from an emotional standpoint. Like I don't try to overanalyze my life. I really don't. I don't try to be optimal in any way. Like I'm not trying to optimize things. Like that's not how I live. Yeah, I get that. I'm not encouraging you to do that. No, no, no.

But I guess what I'm trying to say is I don't really, because of that, maybe I'm not as introspective in some areas where maybe other people might be more introspective because I just don't feel like it helps me in my life. I like keeping it pretty simple, like kind of in a Taoist way, like keeping it balanced, keeping it simple, trying to enjoy the beauty of the world

and take one step at a time. And that's how I approach basically everything I try to do. And, but that does come as a cost of introspection. Like when you're taking it from a Taoist perspective of like, you know, chop wood, carry water, there's not like chop wood, carry water. And then tell us what you think about that. Right.

And from that perspective, that is the more enlightened path, right? Like I'm doing it for the sake of doing it and I'm so immersed and present in the doing of it that it doesn't have to mean anything more than that. And I get that. And I think there's tremendous beauty in that. I'm merely suggesting that accomplishing

these sorts of things will undoubtedly leave you with an elevated sense of self-efficacy and a sense of personal possibility in your life. And then the question becomes, well, how do you channel that newly energized Adam Skolnick? Like in what direction should you aim this like newfound sense of what you're personally capable of? Yeah. That's a good question. My wife's answer will be, he'll buy us a house. He won't be afraid

to buy the house. He won't be afraid. He won't be afraid to pull the trigger on an offer. Well, we could unpack that a little bit. I mean, so basically she's saying you could buy a house, but you're afraid. Well, there was a couple of- What is that fear about? There were a couple of opportunities. I guess, I mean, I've been slugging away at this job for a long time

as a reporter, freelance journalist, and a writer. And more recently, because of Can't Hurt Me did better than I ever thought I would financially. And I mean, at 40, I was wondering what was like, like this whole career, like it could evaporate in 10 years or less and I could end up being really wondering what I'm gonna do.

Obviously I got through that before Can't Hurt Me, but then this has come with a windfall. And with that came, you know, some tax bills and all that. And so you end up looking at this account and you have already put out all this money that you didn't get anything for because it's taxes because that's the way it goes. And then also put out a down payment. It just like was a lot to go out the door. And so I was like, can I just enjoy like a year where I'm not, where I never have to think

about anything I buy. And I think it's like a little bit of just having lived through hand to mouth for doing this job for 20 years. So there's a little bit of trauma. There's a little bit of trauma because of your history. And perhaps it might be worth examining whether or not you have some fear of largesse,

like a discomfort with- There's no question about that. You know, it's like, oh, this windfall, it was a one-time thing, it's never gonna happen again. So I better hold onto this very tightly and not let it go because I'm not deserving of it happening again. Or this isn't, you know what I mean? Yeah, I was thinking more like-

This is great because I think these are the questions that you should be ruminating on when it's three in the morning and you're out in the dark. Well, I wasn't even thinking about like, do I feel like I'm worthy? It's more like, although that's the deeper underlying meaning when you're afraid, like knowing I could come up

with all the logical reasons. Like, you know, Mark Twain had declared bankruptcy when he was basically after he wrote these great books. I mean, you know, like I could, Herman Melville ended up working at the customs office after he wrote Moby Dick. You know, like I could give you a hundred reasons why it's a bad career decision to become a writer long-term.

And a lot of them are financial. I wasn't thinking of it as, am I worthy? Although that's probably the underlying thing. But what I was thinking about is, I've never been comfortable. Like I've never thought like living in the best house on the block was cool. Like I've never thought, like I've never wanted to living in the best house on the block was cool. Like I've never thought,

like I've never wanted to live in the best building. Like for some reason, I've just never wanted that for myself. And I think it's because there is something there about wealth and the way I see myself. And I think there's definitely some cobwebs there. Yeah, I mean, it's not about like having the best thing. And I know you well enough to know

that your perspective on the material world is rooted in a very heartfelt desire to see everybody flourish. Like you have a sensitivity to the underprivileged that I think is a beautiful thing. And that's where your kind of focus lies. But it's also okay to live your life and enjoy it. Yeah.

Right? Yeah. And to the extent that you're like, I'm not saying you're martyring yourself or anything like that, but is there some guilt attached to the fact that suddenly you had some success that you didn't expect? And does that create some weird new emotions for you?

I mean, clearly, if April's like, she might be seeing a version of you that you can't see. And so I don't have the answers to any of that, but I just think those are interesting questions to ask yourself and think about. I like that. Yeah. This is great. So I'm excited for you. You'll report back. Yes like that. Yeah. This is great.

So I'm excited for you. You'll report back. Yes. And we'll see how this goes. Well, I'll report on some of my, next time it'll be a sim before we even do the event. Yeah. Right. And we'll sort that out.

Yeah. Cool. Sort out the sim. All right, well, let's take a quick break and we'll be back with lots of cool stuff to talk about, including listener questions and more. Right, we're back. Before we get into a new segment, we're calling the buzz. Is that what we're calling it? It was the big story.

Well, the big story, we're not doing a big story this week. We're doing a shorter thing we'll call the buzz. Right, I like that. Yeah. I'm tired of the big story. The big story is draining. It really is. As you might've imagined,

we've pivoted away from politics today. There's a good reason for that. I think we're all fatigued of that. And we wanna get back into the heart of the kind of stuff that I love to talk about. So this is fun. Before we get into the buzz though, I did wanna mention for people that are watching on YouTube,

they can see this. I'm wearing my Legion of Los Angeles T-shirt today. Yep. That's Justin Williams, Justin Williams' cycling team. He was a great guest on the podcast. And I ran into him yesterday. I was headed over to the studio here Sunday, late afternoon to put a couple of final touches

on the Adam Grant podcast, which is up now. And I spotted him riding in his red, white, and blue Legion kit, pulled over, chatted with him. He was all fired up. He's got all kinds of good things going on with the team. He's very grateful for the podcast and all the people that reached out to him as a result of his appearance here. And it was a reminder that I'd gotten this t-shirt

and I wanted to rock it. It's a great t-shirt. I think what he's doing is really cool. So if you go to his Instagram, if you dig the t-shirt and you wanna support his team and what he's doing in the community of cycling, probably the best place is go to his Instagram.

And you can buy, you can contribute. Yeah, he's got some swag and gear and stuff like that. I'm gonna buy one of those t-shirts, I love it. That was kind of show and tell. We have more show and tell to do. We do. Anyway, get into it, the buzz. The buzz.

What are we buzzing about? We're buzzing about Clubhouse, the future of audio. This is a- Is it though? Well, that's? We're buzzing about Clubhouse, the future of audio. This is a- Is it though? Well, that's what we're wondering about. The pros of cons of using it. So Clubhouse is this new social media platform. It's kind of like this thing where you go into different,

you become a member, you get an invitation, you enter this house and all in this house are an infinite number of rooms. And each room has its own kind of topic or moderator going on. And you can wander into the rooms and hear these interesting discussions. It is to me, it's kind of part user-generated

talk show platform, part like salons of the digital age. You know, those salons from like Gertrude Stein's Paris salon is probably the best known version of it with Hemingway and Fitzgerald and all those great writers. This is for everyone to have a salon. So it was a tiny San Francisco startup with about a dozen employees founded by two entrepreneurs, Paul Davidson and Rohan Seth.

And basically I think one of them is, I think, what is it? They both went to Stanford. Davison created some social networking apps, including Highlight, which allowed users to see and message people nearby. Seth was a Google engineer and co-founded a company called Memory Labs, which built apps. So they had this experience in the app space and they were kind of pinballing around trying to find something. And this is the one that has taken off and they've raised a hundred million dollars

in the last month. And it's now- I believe Andreessen Horowitz led that funding round. I know they're pretty heavily invested in this platform. And it's now valued at a billion dollars. And this thing just came out of nowhere. Like I heard about it for the first time a couple of months ago.

When did you, you were one of the first people on it. I was very early in. Yeah. Yeah, I got invited into Clubhouse at the very, maybe not at the very inception, but very early on. I think there were only like a thousand people on the platform at the time that I got invited on. When was that?

It was a while ago. Like, I don't, I can't remember. A year ago? No, maybe not that long ago. Can't, I can't remember. A year ago? No, maybe not that long ago. I can't, maybe a year ago. I'm not quite sure. Maybe nine, 10 months ago, I'm not sure. So 10 months ago, there were a thousand people on it

and now it's- There was barely anybody on it. That's crazy. And I've dropped in and listened to conversations from time to time. I can't say I'm like a power user. It's interesting. Like now everybody's talking about Clubhouse.

I think a big part of that is because Elon Musk was in a room the other day with the CEO of Robinhood. And that was a big kind of like pivotal moment in the evolution of this platform that introduced it to a lot of people. And I've got like- Because that was around the whole. Like I've never, but I've never done a conversation there.

I've got like a bunch of followers there, but I've never used it really. But I kind of check in on it from time to time. And I've been thinking about what this platform means and what it presents. And I do think there's something interesting about that salon aspect. Yes.

And having conversations that aren't just two people, but there's a variety of people that can chime in because you can quietly sit in the back and listen or you can participate. And sometimes there's like 12 or 15 people that are all kind of like jockeying to have their point heard in these rooms, in these specific rooms.

It's sort of like eavesdropping on a party line or something like that. Because it's happening in real time. These conversations are not recorded. They're not recorded unless somebody is, you know, recording them using something else, but they're not intended to be recorded. So it's an ephemeral kind of thing.

And I think- Right, like an event, like a festival. Yeah, so that spontaneity, I think, contributes to a different kind of conversation than maybe you would have on a podcast where there's cameras and lights and a little bit of fanfare around it. Historically, my sense of Clubhouse is that

there's been two camps that have grown there. One is very much a Silicon Valley, perhaps bro slash philosopher kind of ecosystem where there's a lot of conversations about the future of tech. And it perhaps has a little bit of a libertarian bent to it. And there's some controversy surrounding particular aspects of those conversations.

And at the same time, there's also a very robust community comprised of people of color having interesting conversations about diversity and the future of the workplace. And now I think it's mainstreaming a little bit as more and more people are finding out about it and more and more people are onboarding onto it.

And I've thought a lot about like my own personal relationship to this platform and whether or not I wanna make use of it. And I think there's something interesting to be explored there. Like I'm not averse to having a conversation with an interesting person on Clubhouse or participating in one of these broader talks.

And I think it could be an opportunity to expose this podcast to an audience of people who perhaps are not familiar with it. So there is a growth potential there, I think. But at the same time, I already do that here. This is where I want the focus of my audio content to live. And I think to jump onto Clubhouse and participate in conversations there

is really contributing to the growth of that platform. And I'm more interested in growing my own audience and perhaps even not perhaps, but definitely my own platform outside of the social media apps. We're gonna be launching, and I've mentioned this in the past, a portal, a membership portal for people

that are like super fans, where we're gonna have exclusive content and a lot more connectivity and interaction with myself and other people. We're working on that. We're gonna be launching a pilot sort of beta version of that pretty soon. And I've got a lot more to share about that

on future episodes. So I guess I think it's super interesting and it will be fascinating to see how this develops and grows over time. Well, especially since like Facebook's already got a room thing on Instagram. They can easily copy this thing and launch their own version.

You're gonna see that pretty soon. I think that's inevitable. You're seeing on Clubhouse people who are doing these daily talk shows or weekly shows. I think that's cool. That is a version of podcasting that's unique in its own thing. But I think like podcasting,

people are gonna find out that it's gonna be a grind, right? So who's gonna really develop an audience and stick to it and be willing to do the kind of heavy lifting that's required to build an audience and remain consistent because the Elons are gonna pop in from time to time, but they're not gonna be coming in weekly on Clubhouse.

So what is it that people are gonna be tuning in for? And I've just noticed when I open it up, I'll see a couple of conversations going on or a schedule of conversations that are gonna be going on later in the day. And I kind of go, that could be interesting, but like, I'd rather listen to this podcast where I kind of already know what's gonna happen there.

And there'll be some, a forethought that goes into how that conversation is gonna play out. So I've listened in the background on some of these conversations and some of them have been cool, but I don't know. I don't think I'm gonna be a power user on Clubhouse. No, and then there's also the aspect of at some point, this kind of COVID haze will all be lifted

and we'll get back to normal life and everyone's gonna wanna go to a real salon. Yeah, that's true. We're gonna be hungry for that. But the opportunity to kind of eavesdrop on like, well, what is Elon Musk gonna ask the CEO of Robinhood is a pretty cool thing, right? It is cool.

And I think we're also gonna see this platform pivot to a subscription-based model or a premium event platform where it's like, oh, so-and-so is gonna talk to so-and-so, so reserve your spot for seven bucks or whatever it is. I think that should be the case. Like if somebody is gonna have like a really cool thing happening there,

the creators of that or the participants in that should be remunerated. Yeah, well, that, I mean, you're pointing to the thing that we talked about when we were talking about the social dilemma. Right. In that, what's the purpose of this platform? The purpose of the platform is not to get you

into the room with- The purpose of the platform is to create a you into the room with- The purpose of the platform is to create a unicorn and have a billion dollar valuation. And so everyone who's going there, they might think they're getting an experience, but really they're giving power to this company. They're the product, of course. Yeah, they're the product.

And that doesn't mean that there isn't value in what's going on here. It doesn't, it doesn't. And I'm not even, that's entrepreneurship, it's fine. But I do think like that has colored the way I look at all these platforms and how do you wanna make your, how do you wanna spend your time? And I feel like I spend enough time on my phone,

probably more than enough. So personally I am, I was invited, I have it on my phone. I opened it once like at eight in the morning, just to browse like while I was lying on the couch, like maybe even in bed or something like that. And two people wanted to talk to me. I'm like, wait a second. I got out of there quick, man.

That happened to me too. I opened it up and there was some conversation going on around plant-based nutrition. So I thought, oh, this will be cool. But it was immediately noticed that I was in the background or whatever. And I got a ping like, oh, this will be cool. But it was immediately noticed that I had like, that I was in the background or whatever. And I got a ping like, oh, join the conversation.

And it was the same thing. I was like, I could have been in the bathroom. Like, I don't know what I was doing, but I was certainly not prepared to like, you know, join in. Hey Rich, wait, wait, what? So I had like a little panic moment and I like logged out. I was like, am I live on this thing?

I don't even know what's going on. Yes, yes, yes. So be aware when you first try to enter what might happen. So at the same time, another reason why Clubhouse is very much in the news and on everybody's tongues and lips at the moment is because they're trying to figure out what content moderation looks like here.

In this broader conversation around content moderation on Twitter and Facebook, et cetera, there doesn't seem to be any effort or infrastructure around that with respect to Clubhouse at the time. And I think this is really interesting. Like, how does that work? Like, what is the value proposition Like what is the value proper proposition

around content moderation on a platform where conversations are happening live and in real time and are not being archived or recorded? Like are you, certainly if we've learned anything over the past year that we do need to be thinking about this problem, but I just don't know how you implement any kind of solution on a platform like Clubhouse, not to say that you can't. And I think even more broadly, there's conversations happening right now about content moderation in the podcast ecosystem as well. Which, I just, I can't imagine how you

even approach that issue. Why? Cause I don't think people really get like, like if I look at my Apple podcast feed and I see the way people frame their shows and not everyone frames them up. We've talked about this before. Not everyone comes correct with how,

what their show really is. Why is it hard for these big platforms like Apple and Spotify and others to moderate? Well, first of all, there's 2 million podcasts. There's something like 17,000 new podcasts that are being created every week, I think. And the number of hours that's getting onboarded every minute is insane.

And in order to do any kind of content moderation, you can't just look at a Facebook post. You have to actually listen to what people are saying. And then you have to place, you can't even just transcribe it and really fully understand because it all has to be placed in the greater context of whatever conversation is happening.

There's gonna be margin cases on the outskirts where maybe that's easy. Like if somebody's basically saying, like fomenting insurrection and saying, we have to kill these people or something like that, where you could easily, you know, immediately identify that there's a problem here. But other than that, like podcasting is all about

like a nuanced conversation. And it's often about controversial or difficult topics. And I'm a believer in exploring difficult ideas in long form as a way of stress testing my own views on things, but also as a service to humanity to get them to think about how strongly they hold their own beliefs. And so I think you need some flexibility

or kind of a broadness in that regard. So I think you need some flexibility or kind of a broadness in that regard. So there's the logistical technical aspect of how you would, you know, police for lack of a better term content moderate so much content. I don't know that AI is capable of that. Right. And- They'd have to build software to do it.

You'd have to have millions of human beings. And also something's live, like how long is it gonna take you to, I just don't, I don't see how it's possible. You couldn't do it within a show, but could you do it within like what the show is about? Like kind of the, like the. Also, is this something we should be doing?

Right. At all? Right. I think that's a question we need to ask, you know. Should we err on the side of free speech or not? And on the logistical aspect of it as well, it's not like Facebook or Twitter where there's one platform.

There's a whole stack of providers in the way that AWS is the cloud support to these social media platforms with podcasting. It's not just Apple and Spotify. It's all the hosting platforms. Like we host on ACAST, there's Ellipson, there's Podbean, there's Blueberry, there's a million of these little companies.

So where are we doing the content moderation? Are we doing it at the level of Apple and Spotify or are we doing it at the level of these hosting companies? And what incentive do they have? Like a lot of them are small companies. They have teams of 10 or 20 people or something. Right, these hosting companies you're talking. They're not set up to be able to do this.

They're like the version of web hosting for podcasts. Essentially, yeah. Like that's where the actual like audio file rests. And then you have this thing called an RSS feed, which is basically a way of syndicating your content across the internet. So by definition, it's an open structure, which makes it different and infinitely more complicated

than these social media sites. You know what's funny is that when the internet was born, it's openness, the idea of open source and open everything. And it's a free for all was kind of seen as it will end up being, it's like evolution. It will be a good, the end product will just automatically be good. And now we have, we're in this kind of dark middle phase

where it's turning out. We're in our early adolescence. Right, we're not sure that that will turn out that way. We're stumbling around in the dark, trying to solve problems that humanity's never had to face before, which makes it really difficult. But moderation and censorship, it's like, it's kind of a fine line, right?

Between the two things. Like, and then you can't, like, we didn't talk about this before, but this is a good time to talk about it. Like, everyone is so prone to outrage right now that like anything said now might be construed in a way that five years from now, we'd look back and laugh at, or five years ago we would think what?

Like, why are people outraged about that? You posted, you went on a hike with Alexi Pappas and you posted yourself at the top having fun with masks on and what happened? Yeah, so that was interesting. Alexi Pappas and I hooked up for a hike the other day. We had a great time, super fun. And we're like, oh, let's take a picture. You know, when we're at the top of this little climb

and we had masks. So we took the picture, posted it. And a lot of, look, to be fair, a lot of people were like, oh, that's so cool. You guys talked about like, you know, getting out for a run together and you actually did it. But there were a lot of people who were very angry that we were wearing masks in the great outdoors

and people, you know, hurling epithets at me and saying that I thought you were about wellness and you should be drinking in the biosphere and you don't need to be wearing masks outside and you've bought into the great hype. And all of it is very, but it was less like, all right, fine. There's anti-mask people

and there's people that have strongly held beliefs about the efficacy of wearing masks, but it was more of the tone, like the vitriol of the whole thing that really bummed me out. It was disappointing that so many people felt so strongly about that when I was like, just trying to share a fun picture of Alexi and I

out on a hike. And I guarantee you that had we taken the photo with masks off, it would have been the same thing, just a mirror image of that. You know, and I think it speaks to that level of, you know, outrage that we're seeing in general at the moment. And where people are more focused on stuff

outside themselves on this little screen than what's, than their own self and even better. Like now it's more important to, it's more important what you say or how you said it than what you do and how you live your life in a way. It's like the perception has shifted, you know, like you can be misconstrued so easily. And then there's also the thing is a lot of those people Like you can be misconstrued so easily.

And then there's also the thing is a lot of those people who are making comments on what to do with a mask or not, they're not necessarily qualified to make those comments. No, and it's like, listen, you know, I'm not virtue signaling because I'm afraid of losing followers or anything like that. But I think like, it's better to like put a picture up where we're being safe than on the other side of it. But that's really all the thought that went into it.

Well, I agree with you. It's okay to be safe. And then at the same time, people, I was wearing my ons, my on running shoes. So then there were people who were like, well, I guess, you know, Tony Riddle and the minimalist thing didn't stick with you. You abandoned it already, like the Vivo barefoot.

Oh. I was like, I wear Vivos, I wear Ons, I wear all different kinds of stuff. Like I'm trying different things all the time. On this day, I happen to be wearing my On Run shoes. Like it's really nothing more than that. You can't, well, listen, you can't. And it just makes me think,

why am I even posting on these social sites? It's like, I don't, it makes me really disinterested in engaging on those platforms at all. Is that right? And it's more reason to create my own platform where the people who are interested in what I'm doing wanna participate and be connected to the work that I'm doing.

Interesting. Like what, what's the benefit? Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, there is a benefit for you to build the podcast through that platform since you've put so much effort into building your kind of following. I mean, they have a utility in that regard, but at some point it's like,

if I can't post a picture of me and a friend out on a hike without it being controversial, then- It's this weird time we're in, dude. People are so like, they're like hair triggered to fucking launch because of we've worked in this weird time. And listen, to take a cue from Adam Grant and all of the amazing work that he's doing and-

That book is killing it, by the way. Oh, it's unbelievable. How he thinks about, you know, engaging with people. It's like people, you know, how can I look at that particular instance from a perspective of curiosity and empathy? And like, people are having a hard time. We're all stuck at home.

Maybe, you know, there's snow storms everywhere at the moment and it looks like a nice day in Los Angeles and I'm out with a friend and that made somebody angry and they lash out because they're having a hard time or they got laid off or has nothing to do with me. No. So the more that I can inhabit that space, it doesn't bother me.

I think they just wanna see your pretty face, Rich, and they were really pissed off. They had to look at it. I don't know what it was. Someone called it a face diaper on your feet. Face diaper, I haven't heard that one. Anyway, moving on. Moving on, show and tell.

Let's do it. All right, I've got something, I'll be right back. Oh, you're gonna go get something? While you do that, I'll share one thing that I have right now, which is this mug. If you're watching on YouTube, you've probably been looking at this red mug thinking like, that's cool, what is that?

So I had the wonderful Steven Pressfield on the podcast the other day. People will know him as the author of the War of Art and Turning Pro. He's had a huge influence on me as a creative person, perhaps the most influence of anybody that I had never previously met. And it was a super honor to have him on the show.

We had a great conversation, I'll be sharing that soon, but he came bearing gifts and he brought me this mug, which was made by this artisan potter called Joel Cherico. And essentially what it is, it's called a Kothon and it's inspired by the ancient Spartan warriors who fought in the battle of Thermopylae like 2,500 years ago,

which is a subject matter that Steven writes about and in some of his military novels. And he kind of discharged this potter to craft this Kothon, this drinking cup, which was valued for its use on military campaigns with the Spartans. Nobody knows exactly what they look like specifically, but Stephen challenged this potter to come up with the design based upon historical records.

And this is what he came up with and I absolutely love it. So you're drinking your coffee out of a Spartan chalice right now? I am, yes. Apparently- But the Spartans were the 100, like that great movie, 100, right? Well, the battle of Thermopylae was 300.

300. It's basically the same thing. And this cup was, so the way it goes, the way it's written here, visibly off putting elements in stream or river water, which had to be drunk were concealed by its color while the dirt in the liquid was trapped in the lip so that it reached the mouth.

So whatever reached the mouth was cleaner. I guess that's the design aesthetic of the whole thing. Yeah, essentially 2,500 years ago. And it has this cool seal on it, which is like the Spartan seal. I was wondering about that. I just thought it was great. They're beautifully rendered.

And I wanted to shout out Joel Cherico for his work. So if you guys wanna learn more about his pottery, go to Cherico Pottery, it's C-H-E-R-I-C-O pottery.com and get your own mug, I suppose. So thank you, Steven. And thank you, Joel, for the gift. And you have some shoes on as well. Oh yeah, I do.

So back to Alexi. So when Alexi came on the podcast, she was wearing these shoes called Atreya that I didn't know about. She's now sponsored by this running company. And I thought those are really cool. They're unique. I hadn't ever seen shoes like that before.

So I looked them up on the internet and I bought a pair to check them out. And what I learned was pretty cool. So I'm wearing them right now. They're kind of dope looking, right? They are. They're pretty minimal. They have this like on the inside, it says fear,

fear only regret. Each one of their models has like a different little saying on the inside of them. I like that. But what's unique about this particular brand is this subscription model that they have. And the shoes are incredibly affordable. Like you can buy a one-off shoe for 75 bucks,

but if you go on a subscription, there are $55 and they come to you. You can set how often they send you new pairs, like two months, I think is the suggested interval, because these are very kind of like lightweight. If you're running a lot, they're gonna wear out more quickly. And it's 75 bucks a year you're saying?

75 bucks for one pair if you buy a single pair. And a typical pair of running shoes is like 95 to $110, something like that. $55 for a shoe, like that's super affordable. And they come with a return shipping label. So when you get your new pair, you send the old one back and they upcycle them and donate them to people who need shoes, which I think is really cool.

On top of the fact that the company was founded by this guy, Michael Krychek, who's a sober dude, who has his roots in the music and restaurant industry. And I think they're in Austin. Yeah, I think he's in Austin. Anyway, I thought it was cool. They don't sponsor the podcast or anything like that, but I saw it was a cool brand

and I wouldn't have found out about it except for Alexi because she was wearing them. She's rocking them now. So anyway, that's what I'm wearing today. Go Alexi. That's my big show and tell. I like Alexi's good pain analogy. She's full of little nuggets of wisdom, isn't she?

Yeah. So I shared the clip of her talking about the rule of thirds. Oh yeah. And people just love that. That's amazing. Yeah. I just downloaded her book actually. So we haven't commented on the fact that you're wearing a moon suit right now. Oh yeah. And people just love that. That's amazing. Yeah. I just downloaded her book actually.

So we haven't commented on the fact that you're wearing a moon suit right now. You disappeared when I was talking about, I was so into the mug and then the shoe and then you returned and you're wearing like a parka. Let's get yours on. So, all right, talk and I'll go get it. All right.

So we are wearing Shackleton Expedition Grade parkas i guess um so shackleton is this uh expedition grade gear company but they also have like i guess performance attire that also looks good and is super high end i think italian made um this one is a performance jacket that i'm already hot is is graded to minus 25 degrees celsius it's basically antarctic grade like summer in antarctica we could wear this and you know a legion t-shirt and those shoes and be just fine um and it was made out of plastic recycled uh plastic bottles so um they developed it in partnership with a com with an organization called the blue marine foundation and you know shackle recycled plastic bottles. So they developed it in partnership with an organization called the Blue Marine Foundation.

And Shackleton made his name on an expedition to Antarctica that kind of was a failed fraud expedition, but his leadership basically saved everyone's life in this crazy period of time. They lived for like almost a year on ice in sheet ice in the middle of the ocean and it kept everyone's, you know, sane and alive. Anyway, so this has been, let's see,

it's made from 100% recycled fabrics and post-consumer plastic bottles have been recycled repurposed to create this waterproof shell. So all the fabrics are recycled and the shell is made out of the bottles and then it's filled with goose down. So, you know, sorry, it's not vegan.

That's not so good. No, but they're not a sponsor. They're not a sponsor. They're not a sponsor. And this was a gift, I appreciate that. Yeah, it would be cool if there was no down in it. Yeah. But I appreciate the recycled plastic aspect of this.

It is, it is good. So it is a beautiful jacket. If you're going to Yellowstone in the middle of winter, this will help. I was in Yellowstone, it was like minus 20 and I had like a Patagonia jacket that was graded to like 30 degrees. So essentially there's nowhere on planet earth

that you can go in this coat and be cold. No, I mean, except- Maybe at the bottom of the ocean. Or the top of K2. Yeah, right, okay, cool. Well, thank you for the gift. I appreciate it. Yeah, thank you.

So talk to me about this on the subject of the bottom of the ocean. Yes. This WSL, we are one ocean campaign that we wanted to talk about. The teachable moment today is WSL and WSL Pure, which is the nonprofit arm of the World Surf League, have launched a campaign

to get groundswell support to encourage the UN to help declare 30% of the ocean off limits to development, oil exploration, gas development, fishing, commercial fishing, not all fishing, commercial fishing by 2030. And the reason being is, well, there's a few reasons for it, but we are in the middle of a possible mass extinction event where species are going extinct at a high level.

Ocean is being acidified. It's the highest acidification of the ocean in terms of rate there's ever been. That matters because our every second breath comes from the ocean. 90% of the carbon dioxide that we've ever emitted winds up in the ocean. And that's the reason for the acidification.

We have coral reefs that are dying. We have kelp forests that are going away. The water temperature is higher than it's ever been. So because of all of this, we are now worried about species collapse and total systems collapse, which matters to us from an oxygen standpoint, from a life standpoint, from food standpoint.

And so one solution to our problems that the scientists have decided is that if you can declare 30% of the ocean off limits to development in any way and protect it, that has proven to be a driver for climate resiliency, increased biodiversity. It protects coastal areas from erosion and it just is protecting vulnerable species.

It also ends up being helpful for commercial fisheries because it provides sanctuary. Right, the populations are more robust. Right, for nurseries. Bounce back. Someone's calling our line. Nurseries for fish populations to bounce back so that like you just said.

So the WSL has set up a website called weareoneocean.org. And they want you to sign a petition that will go to the UN Convention on Biological Diversity, which is being held in China in May, 2021. And the petition is basically asking the UN to set this 30 by 30 standard, and then let the countries decide amongst themselves,

each country will take that standard and then decide how much of the coastal waters will be preserved, how much of it will be in national waters, and then how much in international waters can be preserved. Because some of the problem is there's overfishing international waters where there's nobody regulating.

The US is very good at regulating our fisheries. We actually have great fishery regulation. I would argue, I've looked into this for some stories and it's the best in the world from what I can tell. And fishery management is going up in all sorts of countries around the world. But at the same time, we have fishing boats on the very edge of the Galapagos National Park,

commercial fishing boats and sharks are getting taken and everything's getting taken right at the very edge of that. So what does National Park, commercial fishing boats and sharks are getting taken and everything's getting taken right at the very edge of that. So what does that tell us? Tells us two things. One is MPAs work because there's a reason those fishing boats are right at the other end of an MPA. And some people are worried

they're coming into the national park. That's a question that people are looking at, but they tell us that these kinds of things work. But eventually, if you have a nursery of fish, they will go out, they need to go into the open ocean. And that's when you should be able to fish for them. And so the other thing it tells us is that we do need patrol, this kind of thing.

We need higher patrols in the areas that are marine protected areas. Now, there is organized opposition that has popped up against the WSL. Some recreational fishermen are not happy that are also surfers that pay attention to what the WSL does. And they've been pushing back on this idea of 30 by 30, partly because in California,

there is an effort to get 30% of the ocean and 30% of the land preserved by 2030. There was a ballot measure that failed and now there's a movement in the assembly to try to get that done. And so commercial fishermen have put out talking points and are very much against that. This is not that, this is not the WSL saying,

California needs to do X, Y, or Z, or even the United States. This is the UN Convention on Biological Diversity. Let's set this standard and then let's let the countries work together to try to figure out the best way to do it. In kind of a Paris Agreement type of context. It's exactly the perfect analogy.

Well, a couple of things. First of all, like leave it to the surfers. Surfers are always at the vanguard with respect to ocean preservation. So thank you for your service. And it's certainly laudable. And when you look at it broadly, it's like, how hard can it be to,

you know, our oceans are so vast. Can't we set aside 30%? That should be a no brainer and very easily accomplished. But I'm envisioning all of these countries getting together to try to hash out which parts are protected and which aren't. And I can just see that being a shit show in terms of- Well, it's already happened, right?

So like in Antarctica, Louis Pugh, the great swimmer that has swum in Antarctica before. Amazing guy. He swims in Greenland, Antarctica, wherever he can to raise awareness of climate change. And the reason he wants MPAs, there's one, I think West Antarctica and East Antarctica, one of them has already been declared an MPA.

And- What does an MPA stand for? Marine Protected Area. And so in the Marine Protected Area, some of them you can recreationally fish, but you can't commercially fish. You can't deep sea mine, which is a threat now. You can't drill for oil and gas, that kind of stuff. And so he was trying to get East Antarctica

to become an MPA. And it would create the biggest marine protected area in the history of humanity all around Antarctica, which is always supposed to be about the betterment of the human family, right? The world governments came together and they never fought over Antarctica. It was always seen as this place

where it shouldn't be about commercial enterprise. It should be about science and wellbeing. And he went down and swam in a glacier melt and he did this great thing. And he was trying to get the UN to sign on to make this MPA happen and China and Russia held out. And so just took one no vote basically of the treaty of Antarctica.

We weren't a member of that. It's basically whoever signed onto the treaty of Antarctica in the early days, they were the votes on it. And those two China and Russia held out. So this isn't a slam dunk, but we do need to recognize that we have a problem in our ocean. It's so vast, like you said,

it seems like nothing can harm it, but it is suffering. So we are one ocean. What's the website? Weareoneocean.org. .org, right. And you can sign the petition there. There's a video. There's also another link, wdrv.it link.

That was kind of a video. That was kind of presentation to journalists. So it was kind of like, it's not really wide. We are oneocean.org is the one you want. And, you know, Italo Ferreira, the world champion surfer is on board with this. A lot of major surfers are on board with this. My friend Reese Pacheco is the kind of brain behind it

at WSL Pure. And on this, he gets into the CO2, why it matters that the ocean is warmer than ever. What can we do besides CO2 emissions to significantly reduce other major stressors like overfishing and offshore oil development, blah, blah, blah, and that is setting aside, big chunks of the ocean.

Cool, man. Well, keep us posted. Everybody check out that petition, give it your signature. Let's do it. And let's move on to listener questions. Listener questions. So this one came in from Adam from Santa Monica. Oh, wait, that's me.

I was gonna say this. So the reason- You should have actually called in and left a voicemail and then we could play it. I should have. Adam from Santa Monica is beyond outrage. This, we talked about this. We wanted to pivot away from talking

about anything political that last bit aside. Because I'm just like- Although the sort of content moderation is highly political as well. It is, but we're not really talking about like party politics and that kind of stuff. We're talking about issues that concern us all, but I'm kind of so beyond outrage. I couldn't watch the impeachment.

I didn't want anything. I didn't have any more energy for it. And I was just thinking like, how do we move beyond outrage as a people? Because I've always found anger to be very powerful. It's a powerful tool. It can drive you in productive ways, but if it stagnates, it can become bitterness,

which I think we saw on your feed, some of that. And bitterness is so counterproductive. I think it fuels almost everything bad that we see that kind of bubbles to the surface here lately. So I guess the question is, how do you move beyond outrage and anger? Yeah, I mean, isn't that the $64 question? I mean, yeah, your mind as well,

my outrage stores have been depleted. I feel incapable of it at the moment, but I have to also recognize that that depletion of my outrage is perhaps on some level, a function of privilege, because I'm not in need at the moment. And I think we have to deconstruct this question from two perspectives,

from the kind of greater social community aspects of outrage and what's fueling that and what the antidote is and then our own individual behavior that we can take responsibility for. Because I think broadly, culturally, nationally, we're not gonna be able to move beyond outrage until we solve some very large problems that we face, most particularly the wage gap.

We're in a situation where the middle class has disappeared. The division between the haves and the have-nots have never been greater. In the midst of the pandemic, the richest people have enriched themselves beyond measure when they could have used that wealth to, you know, basically confront the coronavirus pandemic for the benefit of the less well-off.

Like there's plenty of things that the most landed gentry class in our country could have been of service to us in a way that we didn't see. Meanwhile, people are losing their jobs, they're losing their health insurance. We're not seeing any real effort regarding like how to resolve any of this. And that wealth gap is only going to exacerbate.

And I think, over the course of history, if you study history, when that gap becomes too large, the foundations upon which that culture are embedded begin to fracture and either revolution or some other force intervenes. And that's how changes in government occur. When we have so many people who are suffering at the moment, we can't begrudge them for their outrage.

Now that outrage gets stoked by the news cycle and social media apps that provoke that outrage and exacerbate it to some extent. And I think we all need to be aware of the extent to which our anger gets triggered. But I'm sympathetic to people who are outraged right now because their lives are not what they should be or what they could be in this moment.

On an individual basis, when I look at my own, how I comport myself and how I behave and how I deal with people who are outraged or I'm in a context in which somebody is angry at me, I have to think about the conversation that I had with Adam Grant, you know, and how he talks about and how the science, what the science reveals about

how to have more productive conversations and how to ameliorate tensions. And again, and it's not like I haven't talked about this before, it all goes back to leading with empathy, you know, entering these conversations with humility and with curiosity, as opposed to a need or a desire to change somebody else's mind. If you ask somebody, that's interesting

that that's how you feel, or that's the way you see things. Tell me more about that, or walk me through the process of how you arrived at that conclusion. I think that's always the way in, but when you come at it aggressively, then you're in a position where you're butting heads, nobody's mind is getting changed, and you're just basically doubling down on the difference

and the acrimony that lives and breathes between two different people. Further to that, what is the solution? If you enter those conversations with that spirit of empathy, humility, and curiosity, well, you have to be willing to sit down for a while, right? And that's where I think long form conversations come in. That's why I believe in podcasting so much

as an antidote to all of this. You know, podcasting, because of the open nature source of it, the fact that it's an RSS feed and that it's not about clickbait titles and, you know, trying to, you know, game the system, not that the system doesn't get gamed in other ways, but there's something unique about it.

There is no, like podcasting suffers from a discoverability problem, like unlike YouTube or other things, like it's difficult to find new stuff and it's difficult to kind of game. You can't do it with a clickbait title, right? So I believe that the best stuff eventually rises to the top and my hope and my belief is that,

these types of long form conversations are what people need right now and we crave it. Nobody wants to live in a place of fear, anger, and acrimony as familiar as it might feel right now. And I think that's a reason why people are cottoning on to these long form podcasts, because it is a salve to that in some regard. Yeah, and I think, there's also individually,

we have to kind of salve our own wounds as well at the same time, because outrage, you can't run on outrage no matter what. It's not a sustainable fuel source. It's just not, no matter where you are in the world and how rightfully outraged you may be, you gotta figure out a way to feel yourself some other way, from some other inspiration.

Because really the only solutions, like you said, are some structural changes, some changes for us to like figure out a way to live better together. It's unity really is the only answer. And recognizing that not everybody is on the same starting line. That so many of us, myself included,

had tremendous advantages. And we have to reckon with that. And we've gotta create social systems that provide greater opportunity for people that weren't blessed with what I was blessed with growing up. And we need to address that. We need to address the wealth inequality.

There's so many problems, right? So I guess what I'm saying is, it's not a simple matter of like, just comport yourself better. Like we have systemic problems that we have to solve. And so to be outraged at the outrage is not the solution either. No, but I guess the biggest problem

with the outrage level that we have to me is it's not, that's outrage is not a path towards solving those problems ultimately. You know, it's a path. It's an understandable reaction, but ultimately it's not a path to solution. It might be a path to garnering some sort of political power that can put you

onto the path of actually making the change though. So, you know, we're done with outrage for a little while. You think? Well, I don't know. You speak too soon, my friend. I would not. I'm fueled by rage, okay? It's okay.

But I'm just tired of the familiar tune. All right, let's move over to Redondo Beach. This is an out-of-the-box question for you. It is a little bit. I know. How do you feel about it? Well, we're going to play it first, right? Oh, that's right.

It's pretty exciting, folks. Hi, Rich and Adam. This is Madeline. I live in Redondo Beach, and this is okay to play on your podcast. I just have a question about romance. I recently went through a big breakup. I was living with my boyfriend, and I had to make kind of a life shift. And so now I'm dating again. I've been going on the app and it's kind of hard to find someone with a similar mindset. I've been a vegan for 11 years. I'm a longtime listener of Rich's podcast and my ex was an Ironman athlete. And so because of that relationship, I got really into endurance running and I ran my first marathon last year. Anyway, going through the app, wiping through, I try to look for pictures of runners, but they're just not coming up. I don't know if it's because

it's LA and I'm getting a lot of actors or so on. And I was just wondering if you guys had some advice of where to find these guys. It's also kind of hard with COVID because I can't really like join a running club right now. But anyways, thought this could be a fun question to answer on your podcast. Love the show. Thanks so much. Bye. Wow. Well, thanks, Madeline.

It is a fun question. It is a very fun question. And it brings up all kinds of emotions in me because on the one hand, let's face it, I am a de facto relationship expert, Adam, by pure dint of being in a relationship for 22 years. All I had to do is be in a relationship for a long time. And now I'm a relationship expert.

You're an expert, but the thing is, you're an expert of your relationship. Yes, this is true. On the other hand, I have no idea how to give advice on dating. I haven't dated in decades, particularly dating advice in a pandemic or anything having to do with dating apps

because I've never been on a dating app in my entire life. Were you a serial dater? No, I'm the guy who goes from relationship to relationship. I've never been able to date like multiple people at the same time. I don't know how people do that. So essentially I'm very ill-equipped to help you out here. And one of my kind of core things is that I always root

any advice that I give on based, you know, I base it on my personal experience. So I have no personal experience with dating apps, trying to date in a pandemic. No. Or having to date, you know, in any recent decade. So. No. You haven't dated since the 80s.

With that, you know, I feel like DK or Davey should sit here. Davey? Cause they know well, much more about this than I do. But I will say this, obviously the instinct to connect with like-minded people is a good instinct. And that's certainly compromised in a situation in which personal interaction is so compromised.

And I can say generally that I think there's a lot of good in dating apps and helping people figure out how to connect with people that are like-minded to them, but they're not an effective stand in for what is or is not real. Like I have friends that are on Raya. Have you ever seen Raya?

No. And people put like, they spend like tens of thousands of dollars on like basically the show reels to basically, like it's crazy what goes into like creating profiles on this app so that people can look. Is Raya like the high end one? Yeah, it's like a crazy high end.

You have to get invited on and all that kind of stuff. I have a friend who's been digitally dating somebody for weeks that he had never met. They spent like countless hours on FaceTime and texting and stuff like that. And then they finally met in person the other day. And he was like, he knew immediately that he didn't wanna date her.

But even though he was like enamored with this person on FaceTime for umpteen hours, the minute that he met her, he was like, yeah, this is not gonna work. Wow. Which I thought was a really interesting testament to the fallibility of trying to interact with somebody digitally.

That or he needs to run the four by 448. Maybe he does, yeah, I don't know. I don't know, I mean, I think there are no running clubs right now because of the pandemic, but what you can do is you can still go running and you can go running where people go running, even though the clubs have canceled their get together. And you can do like digital networking in those clubs,

like Facebook group kind of stuff. Yeah, you can do all of that. And you can trust in chance encounters and double down on your analog experiences. But I also think because we're being restricted from interacting with people in this moment, that it's a unique opportunity to do the work on yourself that maybe you have been reluctant to today,

in the sense that you reconfigure your focus rather than chasing a mate or trying to find that person that you think is gonna make your life better, that'll make you feel better or fill some hole. Instead, try to work on becoming the person that your ideal mate would want to be with. And I think when you shift that focus in that manner, you in turn over time become like this magnet

who then attracts the right person to you, as opposed to being the person who's out there fishing or chasing all of the time. So it's like a power differential and it's kind of a spiritual equation, but I think it works and it's effective. Like I just know so many people are, it's like they're unhappy in their lives.

They're like, if I just could date this person, if I could just find this person, like my life would be better. But they don't have what that person they aspire to be with. They don't have the qualities that that person would find attractive, right? And they think that that person is going to complete them. When in truth, you have to become complete yourself, right?

And when you can focus on that, on that personal growth trajectory that you're on, you become this more attractive person to the mate that you seek or the world more broadly. Yeah. That's great advice. You know, going on the apps is overfishing and tuning into yourself is sustainable fishing. Is that, let me think about that.

That's my, that's my, that's my over. Tuning into yourself is sustainable fishing. Yes, you tune into yourself. Is that the title of this podcast episode? You become. Tune into yourself. You become the elusive. Sustainably fish your soul.

You become the fish they all chase. All right, I can live with that. I got it. I like that one. I don't know if that was very helpful to Madeline, but- Well, it's disappointing, because no one wants to be told just tune into yourself and forget about dating, because when you're out of a relationship-

But I don't have the answer like, oh, you should call this number or go to this website, and here's where all the people are hanging out secretly. No, well, there are those secret parties. I know there are. There was an article in the LA Times about the secret gyms. Yeah. Did you see that? No, I saw the secret parties one.

Yeah, I saw that too. But there was one about like people who've set up gyms in their garages and there's like a whole underground network of where, cause all the hardcore fanatic gym rats needed a place to go and all the gyms closed. And so they're like speakeasies, right? Like you gotta know somebody in a password

and then you can get into this place. That's what these parties are. Right, exactly. And like the parties are getting shut back and then Garcetti shut down like the power to some of these houses. Oh, he did? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

They had it all done. Yeah, so maybe, I don't know, Madeline, I don't have the password for any of these eyes wide shut, you know, running speakeasy situations. They probably exist somewhere. They probably do. You don't wanna go. Right.

But, you know, you're gonna be all right. That's a fun question. You're obviously a fun person that's gonna be. And you live in Redondo Beach. Yeah. Go run on the Strand. Go run up to Manhattan Beach and back. There's so many people out there.

Exactly. I'm sure that you can find somebody. And I'm not saying avoid actors, but avoid actors. Yeah, that's definitely, I love that. I'm getting a lot of actors on the apps. I think if I had to go on, if I ever was single and I had to go on the apps again, I would like, my bio would be like,

says the wrong thing in mixed company or. Well, there's a lot of tongue and cheek with that too. Again, I'm speaking out of school, cause I don't know, it's all anecdotal. I was on the apps for like about five minutes and it was so bad. Like I met one person and they didn't look anything like their picture and I got traumatized

and I couldn't go, I was like, you know what? I'm gonna go analog. You know what I say to that? Okay, boomer. You know what's funny? That's a good one. And then we'll pivot to the last question. And I think there was an article in the Atlantic about this,

but we were talking about it at dinner the other night. In this whole conversation around Gen Y and Gen Z and millennials and how like Gen Z doesn't like the millennials and like all the kind of like. Zoomers and the boomers. Right, the zoomers and the boomers and all of that. No mention of Gen X. That's how we like it.

Which is my generation. We're stealth. I know, fully stealth, slacker. We will never have a president. We're too slacker to even participate in that cultural discussion. Well, listen, the Gen Xers, we don't want cancel culture because it's just like, we wanted to be

like the iconoclastic culture, like the iconoclastic generation. Like we liked people that said the wrong thing. We kind of like, we liked punk rock and things like that. And now that's turning out that our tastes and like pop culture and it didn't save the world. So now we're gonna have to seed the stage to people who have better ideas.

Right, but why does Gen X get lost in this conversation? I feel like we just get lumped in as boomers. Now we're getting lumped in with boomers. Because everybody who's not, if you're Gen Z, anybody who's not Gen Z and maybe slightly millennial is a boomer. There's that great overheard LA thing on Instagram where it was like overheard in a boomer. There's that great overheard LA thing on Instagram

where it was like overheard in a coffee shop, okay boomer. And then the parent, the daughter said, okay boomer. And the parents said something like, I'm not a boomer honey. I'm gen X, okay boomer. Right, yeah, that's what I'm saying. It doesn't matter, we're lumped in. It doesn't matter. We're just, we're boomers.

So, yeah. Which is too bad because I share my skepticism of boomers is well documented. Right, and boomers are nothing like Gen X. No, they had the summer of love. We had the AIDS epidemic. It's basically just a way of saying you're clueless. Being a boomer? Well, okay, boomer just means like you've tapped out,

like time to seed the stage, old man. We don't have to seed the stage yet. This is what I'm saying. Yeah. So you want Gen X to be factored into these discussions. I like Gen X being ignored. You like it being ignored. I like being ignored.

Right. Yeah, surprise them from the side. It probably is better that way. But I don't like being accused of being a boomer. Who does? That's like being a Karen. Is it that bad? It's just that bad. All right. You know, who does? That's like being a Karen. Is it that bad? It's just that bad.

All right. All right. Here we go. We digress. Final question. Elizabeth from Nanaimo, British Columbia. My friend Justin Chatwin's from there. Hi, Rich.

Hi, Adam. My name is Elizabeth, and I am in Nanaimo, British Columbia. Firstly, I want to say how much I enjoy your roll-on conversations. Rich, I also want to thank you for providing a platform to educate and challenge listeners to expand their perspectives and their awareness. I credit you with encouraging me to consider a plant-based lifestyle for myself, and also through your guests and your own perspective. I've made that change in my own life to great benefits. I'm really interested in getting your perspective on leadership.

Something I value and treasure about your podcast and perspective is your self-awareness and your willingness to examine yourself in your life. I'm curious what your perspective is on leadership. How do you show up to lead your team? what your perspective is on leadership. How do you show up to lead your team? Do you have any advice for spiritual self-aware individuals that value doing the work on themselves on how to show up in a professional setting and, or perhaps ideas on how to blend self-awareness and personal growth with

leadership and encourage your team to do the same. Please feel free to play this. Thank you both for listening and wishing you all the very best. What a cool question, Elizabeth. Thank you for that. I don't know if anybody's ever really asked me about leadership before. It's fascinating. I will admit that I haven't spent a lot of time pondering leadership and probably less time studying it over the years, but I have started thinking about it a little bit more and shouldering this mantle more recently

because I now employ people, which is something I never thought would happen. So I guess I would launch into this response by saying I'm a reluctant leader. I don't consider myself a thought leader or a leader of teams. I think of myself as a solopreneur, somebody who relishes quiet alone time.

I'm fundamentally a writer in disposition. And I always kind of consider myself suited to doing my own thing and wanting to be left alone. I mean, that's still my greatest desire is just to be left alone, right? Yes. But I recognize that I've created this situation

that places me now in the context of having to lead much more than I would have ever wanted or realized. And with the growth of the podcast, like I said, I have people that I employ now. I am a boss. I'm a subcontractor. You don't employ me. You are, you're not. Yes, you don't report to me.

I'll W9 you. I am a boss though, which is weird. And I admit it's a little bit uncomfortable for me, but it's forced me to kind of wrestle with some growth stuff because what I say, how I say it, and more importantly, like what I do, how I comport myself, how I handle myself matters to other people in my immediate orbit.

And so I have started kind of thinking about these issues in a more meaningful way recently. I won't say that I have any kind of specific philosophy of leadership, but I do have a few touchstones. And many of those, I have to say, I credit to my business partner, Greg Anzalone. Like I've learned so much from this guy. I just think he's an exemplary human being and leader.

Greg is the CEO of Sideshow, Sideshow Collectibles. That's really what he, like he's my business partner, but really his business is Sideshow, which makes limited edition collectible figures from pop culture, like all the Star Wars stuff and Marvel stuff, like these limited runs of like beautiful, you know, the Baby Yoda is and Marvel stuff, like these limited runs of like beautiful, you know, the baby Yoda is their product, stuff like that.

And Greg is somebody I've come to really deeply admire and respect as one of the most effective and compassionate leaders that I've ever met. And somebody who in so many ways mimics the findings and the research of Adam Grant, who's the guy in the podcast this week, a guy who studied leadership deeply for many, many years. And so some of those touchstones are, and this is coming from Greg,

it's about the people, not the product, that the employees come before the widget, right? Like the organization is set up not to make widgets, but to empower people's lives with meaning and purpose. I've learned that it's wise to approach every situation with a giving mindset. It's not about what you can get out of a situation, but how you can better out of a situation,

but how you can better support the people beneath you. I've learned that it's about action and behavior. What you say is important, but that must be aligned with your actions, which obviously speak louder than words. And if your actions are misaligned with your words, then you faltered. So I think that's been super helpful to me. I'm a perfectionist.

So learning that progress is better than perfection is a lesson hard wrought for myself, something that I'm getting used to because your perfectionism might help you create something that will get you to a certain level. But if you wanna create largesse in a sustainable way, you have to empower the people around you. And those people have their own ways of doing things.

And that's not always gonna meet up with how you would do things. So holding on too tightly to your ideas, I think becomes an inhibitor to growth. So learning how to let go and empower other people, I think is super important. I think anticipating the needs of the people that you work with is really powerful,

like creating solutions to problems before they arise, because you can see where things are headed before they even get there. One of the things I've seen Greg do is just surprise and delight the people that work underneath him and alongside him by showing up in ways that others in a position of leadership don't

because they're thinking about themselves. And Greg's always thinking about other people and he'll just show up and do the thing that nobody would have ever expected. And sometimes they're big gestures and sometimes they're little gestures, but they're always very meaningful. Like Greg will find housing for an employee

or do something that like a CEO or a person in a position of leadership just wouldn't, you know, you wouldn't think that they would be thinking about the people who work beneath them in such a meaningful way. And that's been, you know, really kind of amazing to see him do that time and time again and has impacted me. I think in terms of leadership,

thinking about how to play the long game is super important, not over indexing for short-term profitability or productivity, but rather thinking broadly about creating and establishing sustainable systems that allow people to flourish and do their best work, not in a highly pressurized environment, but giving them a little bit of bandwidth so that they can feel secure in their expression,

I think is huge. Adam has this great quote, Adam Grant, which is the most meaningful way to succeed is to help others succeed. And it seems simple, but I think it's powerful to not perceive the world as some kind of zero sum equation, but to look at things from a broader, more spiritual perspective

that the universe is infinitely abundant. So with that, give freely of yourself and service to others. And not only does that come back in your direction tenfold, it engenders amazing trust and loyalty in the people that you work with. See, we're back to the Taoist philosophy. I mean, that's really the whole, like the middle way is the Taoist philosophy is

if the few have much and the many have little, that's totally completely anti the way the, like the nature of the Dow. And the idea is to have everyone share in the abundance. And so like the fact that you're citing that as a driving philosophy for your business bodes well for your business. If countries worked out that way, like in Scandinavia,

countries who have a expanded social safety net and are able to, yes, the taxes might be higher to have healthcare and public education at a high level and X, Y, and Z. But if you actually look at everyone's bank account, everyone has more money, the rich and the lower working class and the middle class, there is no lower class.

And so if you look at it that way, everyone does better when there's enough for everyone. And the way we have it in our mind is, well, if I have to pay this, it's less for me, that person should get more themselves, but that's just not how it works. If everyone did better, everyone would do better. It's very simple, but unfortunately, you know,

we do have a leadership vac. I love this question because we have a leadership vacuum in this world right now. There's not a lot of effective leaders you can point to that are getting the job done on a global or national level. There's a few that we sometimes identify, but it's hard. And I think the great leadership, everything's like the best leaders,

it's all happening local and people's homes and people's businesses. And I think Greg's amazing. It's been so cool to meet him and learn from him. So well said. Yeah, a hundred percent. And just, and having a moral compass and having your actions aligned with that perspective.

Like, isn't that perspective. Right? Like, isn't that what leadership is? It's not just bending to whatever is in your self-interest in the moment, which seems to be the hallmark of current times, but rather, you know, heeding a greater call and being willing to sacrifice yourself first in the interest of that.

And I think when you demonstrate that as a leader, that's very powerful for the people that are following you. Agreed. Well said. We did it, dude. We got to the end. Right on, how do you feel? I feel good, man.

I feel lighter. And also like that I have to be a little more introspective as I approach this weekend of hell awaiting me. You do, you got some work to do for yourself. On the subject of feeling good, we should say that our buddies, Giorgio and Arthur and their Feels Good Man documentary

did not make the Oscar shortlist, I'm sad to say. But if you have yet to check out that movie, please go to Apple Plus and make a point of watching it and let's support those guys. We need more cool indie filmmakers out there. Their work should be celebrated. How do you feel Rich? I feel good, man.

I feel good. I love talking to you, man. This was super fun. And it was nice to kind of pivot back to more of my sweet spot in terms of things I like to talk about. Yeah, there was no, you know, giant social political explosion this week

that forced us to focus on something that is a little bit outside of, you know, what are the things that I enjoy most talking about. Hopefully this is the new normal where we don't have to pay attention. Like I said, just stop it right there. You know, we'll see.

We're taking it day by day, my friend. It is 2021. Cool. All right, let's wrap it up. Thank you, Adam. Always a delight to share space with you. You can follow Adam at Adam Skolnick on Twitter and Instagram. Always a delight to share space with you. You can follow Adam at Adam Skolnick

on Twitter and Instagram. You can leave us a message at 424-235-4626. As always check the show notes on the episode page at richroll.com where you can dive deeper into all the things we talked about today. Don't forget to hit that subscribe button on YouTube, Apple, Spotify, all the good places. Again, we created a clips channel on YouTube.

So if you like short chunks, you can check that out. Links in the show notes and in the description below, if you're watching this on YouTube, or you can just search Rich Roll Podcast Clips on YouTube. What else? I think that's it, man. I appreciate everybody. Yeah, thanks for- Who worked hard to put on today's show.

Yeah, and thanks for all the calls, guys, all the questions. We really appreciate it. I wanna thank Greg Anzalone for his leadership. Yes, Greg. As always. Jason Camiolo for audio engineering production, show notes and interstitial music.

Blake Curtis for handling video duties. Jessica Miranda for graphics. David Greenberg for his beautiful portraits, Georgia Whaley for copywriting, DK, who is in the house right now for advertiser relationships. And theme music, as always, by my boys, Tyler Trapper and Harry.

Appreciate the love you guys. See you back here in a couple of days with another amazing episode. Until then, peace, plants. Namaste. Thank you.