The Rich Roll Podcast - Roll On: Why Balance Is Overrated

Episode Date: May 27, 2021

Striving to achieve a ‘balanced life’ on a daily basis sets you up for failure. Approach it instead from a long-term perspective. Aim for self-awareness. Go all-in on what lights you up. Along the way, be gentle with yourself. We are here to follow our curiosity, not mercilessly judge ourselves. Awareness is key. Shame is counterproductive. Welcome to another edition of ‘Roll On’, wherein myself and Lord of the podcast manor Adam Skolnick wane and wax on philosophical, spiritual, and practical ideas both big and small. Beyond bantering sundry matters of varying interest, we play show and tell, share a few wins of the week, and round it out by answering listener questions deposited on our voicemail at [phone]. Beyond RRP hype-man duties, Adam Skolnick is an activist and journalist best known as David Goggins’ Can’t Hurt Me, co-author. He writes about adventure sports, environmental issues, and civil rights for The New York Times, Outside, ESPN, BBC, and Men’s Health. He is the author of One Breath and is currently awash in his umpteenth draft of an untitled novel—slowly losing his mind in the process. Topics explored in today’s conversation include: the ultramarathon tragedy in China and why there must be better protocols and oversight in this growing sport; thoughts on Adam Grant’s recent NYT article, There’s a Name for the Blah You’re Feeling: It’s Called Languishing; Rich’s current approach to writing, motivation, and why balance is overrated; SriMu’s Father’s Day Special, 10% off not-cheese boxes for all hard-working dads; Hellah Sidibe’s impressive, history making ultra-run across the United States; an update on the Iron Cowboy’s history-making Conquer 100; Van Neistat’s The Spirited Man series on YouTube; the Malcolm Gladwell vs. Chris Chavez journalist / influencer 1-mile challenge; and the legacy of Duke Kahanamoku In addition, we answer the following listener questions: How do you create time to care for yourself without disappointing others? How do you avoid late-night hunger pangs following a day of rigorous training? What is the best way to transition from road to trail running? Thank you to Sierra (or Ciara) from Kalamazoo, Michigan, Kevin from Northern California, and Ben from Columbus, Ohio for your questions. If you want your query discussed, drop it on our Facebook Page or better yet leave a voicemail at [phone]. FULL BLOG & SHOW NOTES: bit.ly/richroll604 YouTube: bit.ly/rollon604 Peace + Plants, Rich

The Rich Roll Podcast. What's up everybody? It is I, Rich Roll, your host here once again with Lord Adam Skolnick, soon to be property owner. Rocking the low tide boys baseball hat today. I am, yes. Shout out to the low tide boys. Shout out LTB.

How are you doing today? You know, I wore this jacket for a couple of reasons. Number one is right now, I've transitioned into baby secret service agent. What does that mean? You know, like when the babies start crawling, but not just crawling, but crawling really fast. Yes.

So now April and I have to triangulate to make sure we have Zuma covered. So it's like, he'll be cruising and looking for around the corner. I'll be like, you got him, you got him? Yeah, yeah, I got him. Yeah, I got him. Yeah, you know, you got him. It's on you. Yeah, re got him, you got him? Yeah, yeah, I got him. Yeah, I got him. Yeah, you know, you got him.

It's on you, yeah. Renegade, you got Renegade? I got Renegade. That's the code name for Zuma. I feel like Zuma is a code name. Yeah, Zuma is the code name. Renegade was Barack Obama's Secret Service code name. That's what they called him during the campaign

and he kept it. So I'm borrowing that. Well, good to see you. Good to see you. Back with you before we corrupt people with our respective biases. Yes. I should mention that what we do here

in this special version of the podcast that we call Roll On is we talk about a variety of matters that are just of interest to us over the past couple weeks. We do a little bit of show and tell, we share some wins of the week, good news. We're about good news, right? Usually. And yes, once in a while.

We're kind of back to good news today. We're back to good news lately. And we also rounded out with some listener questions. So if you guys want a question fielded for Adam and I to discuss, you can leave it on our voicemail at 424-235-4626. Also, before we dive in, if you're watching this on the YouTubes, please subscribe.

Same goes for Apple and Spotify. On that note, quick shout out to our Clips channel. We have a little nascent seedling we're nurturing with this channel, but we did just hire a full-time editor, all praise to AJ. AJ. Who's piloting it. We're uploading two clips every single day

and we'll probably increase that at some point. So if you'd like to take quick peeks into the plant-based meat and organic potatoes of what we do here for each episode. That is the place to do it. So subscribe to that channel as well. There's a link to it in the description below and in the show notes,

or you can just search Rich Roll Clips on YouTube. Love it. What is up? Well, the other reason I wore this coat is, wait, is it too soon to get the water? You can get the water. You can't, you shouldn't get in the water in the first segment.

That sort of signals that you're nervous or you have some kind of anxiety disorder. Or just like dehydrated. I don't know. If you're furiously sipping from the water in the first 10 seconds of the podcast, something might be awry. Something's wrong in your life.

Yeah, secret service duties are dehydrating you. I wouldn't want me as my secret service agent. No, I went out of town this week for the first time, went up to the wine country behind Santa Barbara, where it's really lovely in the hills there. And it was one of those places where you have to wear like nice clothes to get in for dinner. Right.

And so I wore this also. You wore that. I haven't taken it off. I've seen a lot of mileage in the last 72 hours after being in your closet for 10 years. Exactly. You know me so well. I feel so seen.

Right. I also feel like you showed up in a matching shirt today to me, where we are kind of matching. Yeah, that's kind of odd. That kind of floral pattern button down. So it's a good news day. Everything's good though. The big battles coming up, excited about that.

Which big battle is that? Remember the swim run big battle. Hence the low tide boys hat. Exactly, Nicholas Ramirez and team Envol have launched this cool thing because there are frustrated swim runners all over the world. Really most of them are in Europe to be quite honest, if we're gonna be fair.

They're less frustrated in Europe because they're actually good at it. Right, but they can't do it in Europe. We're more vaccinated. Although I did just get an email from Otillo saying they were opening back up or I didn't, I can't remember the details. It's gone up and down.

Some races have been canceled, some have not. And so it's kind of this chance to get race organizers, some spotlight, have swim runners kind of join in something and take all of June. So basically it's everyone who wants to join signs up at Enville's website and basically you get points for every three kilometer or more swim run that you do.

I believe it's three kilometers, three or five. And a couple of Euro of your 30, I think it's 30 Euro, something like that. I'll tell you right now. It is, no, 13, it's just 13 Euro. And a couple of those bucks go to Sea Shepherd. Oh, nice. And so it's pretty cheap to sign up.

And then you can, like I said, every 3K swim run, which is not much, as long as you do two swims and two runs that you log, you get a certain amount of points and then you get a point per kilometer. And if you do more than 10 kilometers, you get even more points. You get a little bonus per kilometer. And when does it kick off?

Kicks off June 1st. June 1, right. It's all of June. And Envol is spelled E-N-V-O-L. That's right, Envolcoaching.net. Okay, Envolcoaching.net. And I am on team low tide boys. You are. I am. You're really stepping it up.

Really? In the swim run world. You feel like I'm- Making a name for yourself in swim run. I think it's because I'm the only mainstream journalist that has written about it twice. You have, you have. I know. I don't even consider myself a mainstream journalist.

Two New York Times pieces on swim run. That's right. Of yours truly sitting right here. You know, you launched me. And now we were joking before the podcast. We're like, we become like a swim run podcast. That's not a swim run podcast. Yes. You don't really quite yet. This is not a swim run podcast.'s not a swim run podcast? Yes.

You don't really quite yet. This is not a swim run podcast. No, you don't wanna market yourself. We're talking to a very small subsection of the audience right now. Although I feel like some of your audience like is starting to, it's permeating out there. They wanna get into it.

It's just filtering into the unconscious collective beehive mind out there. And you know, the point is the big battle is the perfect time to try it. You can do like really small amounts of kilometers or mileage and you go out there, you swim for a quarter mile, run for a mile, swim for a quarter mile, run for a couple miles

and you're home and you're good. And you can easily do that. From my door, I used to love doing this 8K swim run, which I will do again during this June big battle. I stopped doing it during the winter cause it just gets cold in that swim run suit, but I'm back in the swim run suit without the legs and really excited to get after it again.

It's cool. Yeah. You do need access to water. We had a listener question about that a couple of weeks ago, right? I don't think- A lot of the pools, I think are starting to open up right now. I wonder if, I don't know the answer of what Nicholas says about pool swims.

I would imagine pool swims are fine. I'm sure they are. How many people live on a coastline where they have access to getting out in the open water? You're taking our small subset of the audience and dividing it into an infinitesimal number of people. No, but I think that's a good thing. I think we could further polarize even more,

get the people by the water to resent the people without water or vice versa. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well

just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care, especially because unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. It's a real problem. A problem I'm now happy and proud to share has been solved by the

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Whether you're a busy exec, a parent of a struggling teen, or battling addiction yourself, I feel you. I empathize with you. I really do. And they have treatment options for you. Life in recovery is wonderful, and recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery.

To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well

just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care, especially because, unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. It's a real problem, a problem I'm now happy and proud to share has been solved by the people at recovery.com who created an online support portal designed to guide, to support, and empower you to find the ideal level of care tailored to your personal needs.

They've partnered with the best global behavioral health providers to cover the full spectrum of behavioral health disorders, including substance use disorders, depression, anxiety, eating disorders, depression, anxiety, eating disorders, gambling addictions, and more. Navigating their site is simple. Search by insurance coverage, location, treatment type, you name it. Plus, you can read reviews from

former patients to help you decide. Whether you're a busy exec, a parent of a struggling teen, or battling addiction yourself, I feel you. I empathize with you. I really do. And they have treatment options for you. Life in recovery is wonderful, and recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. On the subject of pools and water,

I came across a story in the New York Times. I didn't put this in the outline or in the show notes, but maybe Blake can pull it up. Blake, search New York City pool in the East River. Oh, right. Did you see this? Yeah, you just posted it. You just posted it, yes. Right, this is very cool.

So apparently New York City has just approved this project to build a floating pool in Dumbo right in the middle of the East River. Right. And it's got this bridge. So Blake- It's like icebergs, but the East River. Exactly, it's like icebergs just sitting in the middle of the, yeah.

So it's not icebergs. I should also say, before we get a little deeper into this, we're trying something new today. We're upping our production technology game. We've got this big monitor here. So we're gonna do the whole thing where we pull up clips and talk about them a little bit.

So that's two, there's two Olympic, one Olympic size or 125, 150, it looks like? It looks like, well, definitely one 50 meter pool, but it appears that it only has four lanes. Like Blake, if you scroll down, you could see a mock-up of the pool. That's a little bit more zoomed in. Why does it look like a cross?

But what it also does, and see it's a cross. So one way is I believe it's four lanes of 50 meters. 50 meters in distance. I'm not sure what the other side of the cross is in distance, but also there's some kind of technologically advanced filtration system. So it's actually also cleaning the East river at the same time.

I love it. So there's an environmental sustainability component to this thing, which is very cool. So anyway. I'm all for it. First of all, I love Dumbo. Hopefully it'll take them less than 10 years to build it. It looks super futuristic and cool.

And if that works, it seems like something you could replicate in all kinds of cities across the world. It also looks with the sun rising and that- It's well photographed. Design. Or mocked up. It looks like- Rendered.

Like the Catholic church is behind it. Because of the cross? Yes. Or it looks like a pot dispensary. No, it's very cool. It is cool. Can you imagine if you lived in Brooklyn and you could just cruise out and swim there every day?

That would be pretty cool. It'd be amazing. Yeah. It is beautiful. I wonder if it'll be open, if they'll heat it for the winter months. I think it said in the article, it'll be open for 15 weeks out of the year. Yeah, I would imagine.

First they gotta build it. Is it a barge? Like, does it move? I don't think it said in the article, it'll be open for 15 weeks out of the year. Yeah, I would imagine. First they gotta build it. Is it a barge? Like, does it move? I don't think it moves. See, there's that walkway, that kind of architectural path that looks pretty long. That looks like quite a ways out in the river. It does.

Anyway, super cool. It's very exciting. What else do we wanna talk about? You know what we should- How are you? You know what we need to do? What? Well, yeah, first of all, I'm good. I'm glad to hear it.

I have two things that I wanna talk about. The first is that today I feel really good. My energy is excellent, but I would say since the last time that I saw you, I've actually had a bit of a hard time. Like I've been struggling, like with, I wouldn't call it depression, but just a lack of energy or enthusiasm for life.

Like just waking up, you know, are we still in the pandemic? Are we not in the pandemic? Like I live out in a remote place. So I'm already kind of deprived from a normal or adequate amount of social interaction with the exception of coming to the podcast studio and doing this thing.

Right. And I just found myself confused and just being challenged to focus or feel plugged in to life. And it left me like, it impacted my sleep. It impacted my ability to train. Like I was really having a difficult time just getting out there and getting active.

And I came across an article, this article is from a couple of weeks ago. It's by friend of the pod, Adam Grant. Oh. Called feeling blah during the pandemic. It's called languishing. And I think languishing is a word that perfectly captures how I've been feeling up until literally this morning.

And I think, you know, we'll link this article up in the show notes, but Adam, I think really perfectly captures this. I don't know if it's an epidemic, but a lot of people are having this experience right now. It's fairly common. Even though I felt like I was the only person who was experiencing it and reflecting upon it.

I think if you really think about it, we've just gone through an unbelievable year of insane political turmoil, of stay at home orders, of being afraid initially to even touch our groceries and we're sanitizing everything and we're terrified of our interactions with other human beings. And now as we start to emerge out of it,

I think we're in a stage of dealing with, I mean, I wouldn't go so far as to call it post-traumatic stress, but there is a stress that we've all weathered. And I think without confronting it and really, in our own respective individual ways, finding a way to work through it, you can't just expect that it would disappear.

It's like, oh, we're back in the world now. And like, everything's fine. Like that was a crazy year. Like we've just gone through it. Even, look, obviously some have had it much worse than others and I've had a pretty, you know, charmed version of this year, but at the same time, you know, I still think, you know,

everything that we've kind of gone through collectively has an impact on our psyche. And the isolation. Yeah. You know, like we went through the isolation collectively, where usually being alienated is kind of, you feel like the only one. This time everyone is kind of doing that at the same time,

but that doesn't lessen the impacts of it. Sure, but now we're in this stage of like, we're good. Right, are we good? Like, let's go. And then we went to, we went. Can we go, can we, like you were in a hotel room, right? For the first time. First hotel room in a while.

Like, I'm sure when you walked into that room, you're like, okay, like, are we okay? Is everything good? You're talking to someone who is like a professional travel writer for a decade. Like I was on the road nine months a year for a lonely planet alone in a lot of these places and to be back in the hotel,

like we were thinking about going to Hawaii for 10 days or so. And then we just couldn't get our minds around bringing the baby on the airplane yet. We just weren't quite comfortable with that yet. So we decided let's give this, let's do something really simple, the first step. And it was comfortable.

And you know, he got to eat in a restaurant for the first time. It's like big advances. Got to see a bunch of animals and have a good time with them. Like, you know, like at like a petting zoo, it was hilarious, it was hilarious. It was good, but it was the first time.

And there was this reticence. There was this kind of hesitation. I would suggest potentially another aspect of this for you, cause I felt it myself a bunch of times, the re-entry process after doing a super highly concentrated intense story in a different location than coming home, you don't really notice it. It takes like a week for you to settle in.

And after that, you're like, whoa, nothing really matters as much as what that experience was like. And so the adrenaline pumping and the high and being on location during a very intense period of time, this is right when the verdict was happening. This is like, there was another shooting and you're out there for that,

talking to people deeply involved in it. And then you come back, it's gonna take a while for you to feel like the other podcasts matter as much as those podcasts matter. Not to say that it doesn't, it's just a feeling sometimes, I'm projecting, but I've had that with stories where I feel. Sure. Yeah.

It's, you know, it's that scene of Jeremy Renner walking, you know, wandering down the grocery aisles, like, you know, pining to be back in a combat situation. Right, right. You know what I mean? And you understand why, you know, people of that ilk feel like they have to continue to redeploy or work correspondents.

Exactly. Dan Harris has spoken about this. Like he basically was like, I was addicted to being dispatched to all these crazy places and being right in the middle of some insanity. And then you come home and everything is just blah and muted in comparison to that. And Sebastian Younger, I think just did a documentary

and now he's got his book out about the same thing, bringing this group of guys, some of them are military, some of them were correspondents together and they're like walking the rails together to try to kind of come to terms with what they went through. Right, so I guess what you're saying is that what we're all collectively experiencing is a tiny version of that. I think that's true and then I think what you're saying is that what we're all collectively experiencing is a tiny version of that.

I think that's true. And then I think specifically you, given the timeframe that we're talking about, just still about a month since you got back, maybe a little bit more. Yeah, I don't know. Maybe a little projection in that. I'm not so sure that it's rooted in the trip to Minneapolis

as much as it is a reckoning with the last 14, 15 months. But I feel good today. You feel good today? I'm on the other side of it. That's the thing. That's the thing about emotions. Even when you think you're stuck in some cycle that you can't escape from, they tend to always change.

It's got to wait for the- Feelings are just feelings, man. Feelings are feelings. Well, that's like this weird moment that we're in is also this, everyone's in their feelings so much and it makes me wanna be in them less. Like I wanna be in mine less. I wanna feel less.

Is that weird? Is that bad? I'm trying to wrap my head around what you mean. So basically because of just the dissonance and the vitriol that's out there right now, just go out and have an analog experience and enjoy your life. Yeah, just go out and just like,

touch the ocean and be in awe. Yeah, I feel you. Well, speaking of getting in touch with our feelings, I think we do need to talk about the Brogan situation a little bit. I don't know that you and I need to process this very much. I think we're good. Right, you and I?

We're good, yeah. Now that my operatives have gotten to you. Yes, I know. Well done, well done team. Talk about impacting my psyche, but I feel like maybe we need to process this a little bit for the audience. Yes, let's do it.

The Brogan thing continues to resurface its head. I've been on the receiving end of quite a few emails and comments posted on social media that I'm still being too mean to you and that I need to be nice to you. And Brogan will never take your job and how dare I court affections with an interloper. How dare you?

Such as him. A giant man with a huge heart and a big personality. So just to be clear, I guess I can be nicer to you. It was all, it's all been in good fun. I thought we talked about this last time. We did a little bit, but it continued to crop up a little bit because then I put up Brogan's episode. Oh, right.

Which was the other week. So, and that was when he first kind of broached the subject. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Through the gauntlet. But then that little video that he texted me today that I sent you, there's a clip in there where he's like, he's like, send me Skolnick's info. I'm gonna be friends with that guy.

He's just a big cuddly friend, Hunter. Mad love for Brogan. Yes. But for all of you out there in the podcast universe, I'm gonna be friends with that guy. He's just a big cuddly friend, Hunter. Mad love for Brogan. But for all of you out there in the podcast universe, Adam's job is secure here. My love for Adam runs deep. Thank you, sir. Nobody's taken that chair away from you.

Although we may have Brogan come out. And in that case, perhaps we should do a plant-based leather couch intervention situation. We can get a therapist involved. We can talk it all through. Yeah, I would love that. Come to some- I have a lot to say. Place of love and consensus over the whole thing.

I'm just glad that my groundswell of supporters out there. It's growing. It's growing and they gathered there with pitchforks and torches, just like I suggested. Came to your defense. Right. Stridently. I had nothing to do with that Rich. Yeah, you weren't using fiber to like pay.

We were on pay people. We have a group on Parler. Okay, so we've cleared that up, right? We're all good. We should kind of shift gears a little bit. You have to talk about what you've been doing because I know that you're in a different phase than you've been in for a while.

Yeah, I mean, we're gonna get into that, I think in the bigger theme after the ad break. I've been writing, I've been kind of down the rabbit hole with that. And it's been fairly all consuming in a good way, but not without its drawbacks. So we'll talk about that after the break. I think we should get into two noteworthy newsworthy topics.

The first is this ultra race tragedy in China that happened. Well, I found out about it on Sunday morning. It must've happened on Saturday where extreme weather killed 21 ultra marathoners in this race. The yellow river stone forest, 100K, I believe what it's called. A hundred kilometer.

In Gansu province. Race, have you been to that part of the world? I'm not familiar with what the terrain is. My only experience in mainland China is Beijing and just outside at the Great Wall. So I believe that in the early miles of this race, they were faced with 6,300 feet of elevation gain, or I don't know what elevation gain they started at,

but essentially these runners were all in shorts and lycra and just the lightest gear. And in short shrift, the weather turned pretty dire, pretty quickly such that a lot of these participants got caught in a rainstorm that turned into a hail storm. Temperatures dropped precipitously. And really bad winds. And it became incredibly dangerous.

And these people were trapped. They couldn't get their footing. The terrain was super rugged. Apparently it was already scrambling kind of terrain. Like people were on their hands and knees and still getting blown over. Yeah, yeah. 21 people.

Out of 172. I mean, that's gotta be the biggest death toll in the history of multi-sport. I don't know of any other event where that many people perished. I mean, it's crazy. How could it be more than that? Cause it takes a tragedy.

Apparently several others could have died, but like they huddled in caves or that like one guy in the top six of the runners, the only one to survive he thinks, was carried by a shepherd. He blacked out on the mountain and was carried by a shepherd down to a cave

and a fire was started and then others joined him in there. Others went down the hill into, you know, I guess structures that rescuers sent them into. Apparently the winds were tearing through the space blankets. It was that bad. And so people had space blankets. It's not like that these people were all kind of super green

or under prepared. People had space blankets. They might not have had the technical gear you needed, but they had that and it didn't work. Yeah, and that one particular athlete that was saved by the shepherd, I think passed out and came to in a cave, right? Didn't even know what had happened.

Didn't know he got carried down there. Guy saved his life. There was one guy who perished, I think his name is Liang Jing. I'm sure I'm butchering that name, who was a champion ultra runner. Like there was a field of really fast people. I'm sure it was a wide spectrum of talent and ability,

but the fact that that many people died, I know it was a huge story all across China. There's gonna be, I'm sure, a massive investigation into this. And I think what's instructive about it is a conversation around the safety measures when you host an event like this. And I think in particular ultra running

or ultra trail running being this sport that is growing very rapidly, it's still an emergent sport, but it's gone from it's kind of grassroots, dirt bag, hippie, sleeping in a tent at the starting line vibe to a legitimate sport that's attracting more and more people. And I think with that comes a responsibility to have your shit together for something like this. It seems like the race should just have been called off

because like with weather coming in, in altitude. I can't imagine they didn't know that there was a solid chance that the weather would turn in such a way. Maybe they didn't, I don't know. I don't know. It doesn't seem, it seems like that, that would be where you'd start the investigation.

In terms of the rescue, 1200 people turned out and combed those mountains in really bad conditions for searching for people and they rescued a lot of them. I mean, it could have been a lot worse. I mean, so kudos to the search and rescue team, which I've always admired search and rescue people, but 1200 people getting out there to help out is quite a number.

Right, but that's reactive safety as opposed to prophylactic safety. Yeah, that's government versus the organizers. Yeah, I would imagine that all race organizers are gonna think twice now, and it's gonna mean that race organizers are gonna think twice now. And it's gonna mean that race organizers are gonna have to have those prophylactic safety measures in place

if the terrain is such that it could lead to something like this, which means the races are gonna be more costly. And it's- Insurance. I think it's a shifting of the tide as this sport grapples with how it's gonna mature and grow. But it makes me think about the Odillo race in Sweden when we're doing the pig swim

and the boats are getting thrashed around. I was like, this is crazy. Like this would never have been allowed to continue in the United States. Even Catalina people come in from the long distance. I think you just came out for the one day, but if you'd stayed the second day. It was so calm that day.

Yeah, but the second day wasn't. Winds were howling, the water temp dropped a bit and they're out there longer. And the last third of the race is mostly swim with just little runs connecting the swims. And so there's not enough of a run to get you warm. And I think it's similar to how the race ends or no, maybe not, I don't know.

But that's how the race ended there. And people came in, I was concerned about several people who came in completely shivering, blue lips, the whole thing. Luckily there was warm showers right there and they could take care of it. Yeah. But, you know.

It is a little bit different than extreme altitude and extreme weather. The altitude is, I think the altitude with the ice weather. And then people were apparently some of these runners were foaming at the mouth. Like, so how fast did you get to pulmonary edema? Like how fast that happens? So tragic, 21 people, it's crazy.

So heartbroken for all of these people and their families who are suffering as a result of this and for China's trail running community in general, it's just an awful tragedy. Well, that's what they're saying about the Hong Kong ultra marathon community is like really staggered by this. They've lost lots of friends.

I'm sure. It can't be that big of a community. Right. So, and there were people interviewed in the piece like, oh, this was my friend or I lost two friends. Like everybody who's part of that subculture, I'm sure is one or two people away from being connected to somebody who passed.

When you did some ultras, were you always careful to check the weather yourself and make sure that you were carrying like heavy gear for cold or- Well, I'm not gonna hold myself out as a super experienced ultra runner. Like I haven't done these kinds of races. Like I've done Ultraman where you have a crew

following you the whole time. Like you're being monitored constantly is very different. Plus it was in Hawaii. It's not the same thing. I mean, the biggest threat there is being hit by a car or getting attacked by jellyfish. But you're not gonna die of hypothermia in Hawaii. So, all right, well, let's switch gears here a little bit.

I think it's time to check in on the Iron Cowboy with our Iron Cowboy moment, our ticker. He's on day 85 now. Unbelievable. It's so crazy. I can't even believe it. Day 85 and he actually looks great. I feel like he's in a new gear.

I keep saying that. He's in better shape now than like day 20. Yeah. Yeah. So today's Monday, he's on day 85.. I keep saying that. He's in better shape now than like day 20. Yeah. Yeah. So today's Monday, he's on day 85. This will go up Thursday. So anything could happen between now and then. But yesterday day 84, he said he felt better than he had in the last three weeks.

He seems to be ending the marathon every day in daylight, which is unbelievable, which means he's getting more rest. He's allowing his body a little bit more time to recover, which is cool. His spirits are very high. Like he just seems super engaged with his community and all the people that are there to support. I love seeing his little speeches at the end of the night

after he finishes the marathon. He's so gracious with the people who've traveled all over, you know, to come and run or bike with him. It's very cool. Jesse Itzler dropped in on him the other day. Jesse posted, I think it was yesterday or today that one of the biggest things that he took away from it was just how much his family is a part of this.

Like the fact that his wife is basically running the whole thing, his kids, his daughter's running the social media, he's got his son out there with him, like the whole family is involved. And then he's got his wingman, he's got this other sort of outer, more outer, in the concentric circle of support

of people that are helping him. And he's a leader, like he's able to like engender the level of like support and love from all of these people who are devoting their time. I mean, his whole family is basically all about it right now. It's crazy. And he takes calls on the marathon. I know.

But his daughter is also not just social media, she's handling like the media relations as well. She is, right. And sponsor relationships. Like it's like a full time job. And she's 18, I'm pretty sure. Right, I know, I know. It's pretty cool.

It's amazing. So are you gonna go out there? Yes, I'll be there the last few days of the- You are? Yes. My goal is to be there the last part of the last, the third to last day and then the last full days, the last two days.

Pretty exciting. Yeah. So you can do multiple Ironmans, right? I am, my goal is, you know, part of my job is gonna be to like chronicle his experience and everything, but the other part of it is to kind of take note of the community response

and how people are just turning out and kind of that herd of support, which is super inspiring to see the Forrest Gump effect. Right. It's what we're calling it. And so I'll be taking that temperature as well. So that's going to include finishing at least one of the marathons with them,

which I feel like I've never even run more than 11 miles at once, but this is like a run walk and I've walked, you know, I've walked 26 miles in a day, a couple of different times. Sure. So, and I'm in good shape for it. So I think I'll be maybe the last one

is what I'll shoot for, but we'll see. So he's scheduled to finish on June 8th. Yes. If all goes to plan, correct? Yes. I gotta see what I can do. I gotta get you out there. Can't make any promises.

I'm juggling a lot of responsibilities with a lot of different people right now in my household. I know. I'm definitely gonna make a point of trying to get out there. I don't know that I can be out there on the final day,

but I know if I don't find a way to do that, I'll be super bummed. Bring the whole family. That's one way of doing it. I can tell you, I can promise you that's not gonna happen. That is not gonna happen. Pile in, rent a minivan, Rich.

Yeah, I don't wanna publicly say, make any promises that I can't live up to, but I'm looking into it. So we'll see what happens. But much love to the Iron Cowboy and his whole family. It's just, it's so impressive what he's doing. It's unbelievable. And the fact that his body is acclimating to this

and holding up and just remarkable. And you talk to him on the phone and he's like, it's like he's sitting at a desk or like sitting on his. Did you speak to him on the phone? I've spoken to him twice now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he's just like so inspired and inspiring. He posted the other day, maybe it was yesterday.

I can't remember. It was like something like someone asked him, how do you know if you're gonna get through a given day? He says, I know the minute I set my foot in the water or something like that. Like he already knows, like he wakes up knowing. It must've been day 80, maybe 82 or 83, right before he was about to get into the pool.

Cause he never posts any videos until the swims over. But he was struggling to get his head around beginning another day. And he teared up, like he got emotional. And he's like, he started crying and he was like, I'm gonna try. I'm just gonna try. And that was it.

Like you could tell the exhaustion level was just beyond imaginable. I did not know about that. Day 82, 83? I think it was, it might've been day 83. Yeah, it's weird because if you're, the Instagram stories disappear, right? So if you're not on it, you miss it.

But I would certainly ask him about that. It appeared to be, you know, who knows what he's also not sharing, but it appeared to be quite a low moment for him. And then to see him rally back and then a day or two later, big smile, lots of energy. And I've never once seen him short or curt with anyone. He's nothing but like gracious.

Every word that comes out of his mouth is positive. And there's a powerful lesson in that for all of us. No doubt, man, no doubt. So sending you love and strength. Let's take a quick break and we'll be right back with the big theme. The big theme. Adam took two drinks of his water during the break.

He didn't want anyone to see or hear, but it happened, right? Are you okay? Don't make me sick my minions upon you. That Fiverr account, you better put a little more money in there. You know, it is true. I am slightly dehydrated, Rich. Well, all those secret service duties.

I might've been heavy on the salt in last night's dinner. That plus the secret service duties, plus the new cycle. Not about the swim run training where you're swallowing salt water off point down. You know what? I've been training in the bay. We can't stop talking about swim run. Well, swimming in general.

So I've been, Nicholas has been trying to get me to do drills with swimming and I've always not done it. But the last two swims I've actually been trying to, and he sends like these drills that are obviously shorthand and every swimmer who's been ever swam, like from age 10 on knows what I'm talking about. But you need to decode a ring.

You should send them to me, I'll decode it for you. So anyway, I'm kind of trying to figure it out, but I was out there swimming and was surrounded by dolphins and had such a great time. And there's nothing like it. And gray whites, you just didn't see them. I know, but that's okay. I felt good, but there was one really murky area

right after the dolphin area and I'm like, hmm, not so good. All right, well, the big theme that we're gonna talk about today has to do with balance, which is a subject that's come up many times in the history of this podcast, the idea of living a balanced life

or living your life in pursuit of balance. And I wanna talk about this in the context of what I'm grappling with right now. As we mentioned prior to the break, I've been writing, I've been on a writing jack lately. I'm working on putting together volume two of Voicing Change. And what's interesting about this is that this book is very much a team effort.

I've got designers, I've got people who know how to do book layouts, I've got graphics people, I've got Georgia who's helping me with some of the writing on it. And they've been doing this for months at this point. So every two weeks we do a Zoom call, it's an update on where they're at

and they're progressing like very methodically and gradually through the manuscript. And I have this guilt and shame every time I get on one of these Zoom calls because I've done nothing. And they're like, Rich, we need this, this, and this from you, you gotta do it. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I just could not get off my ass

and start working on this thing. And Greg would be like, just work on it like an hour or two a day, just chip away at it. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like intellectually, rationally, that makes sense, but I just couldn't make that happen. But now we have looming deadlines

and deadlines are very effective in, you know, catalyzing you to, you know, get on it mainly out of fear, but I've been paralyzed to just begin. But I finally cracked the seal a couple of weeks ago. And what happens in my experience is that when I crack that seal and I just start, suddenly I become not just invested in it, but it becomes like all consuming. Like it starts to monopolize my focus. And the only thing I wanna do is work on it.

So this obsession kicks in where I then crowd out everything else in my life and just go down the rabbit hole. And I just work on it for like 12 hours a day, and exhaust myself. And then I wake up at three in the morning and start working, you know, it's crazy. It's not balanced. Right away you get into that mode

or does it take a few days? There's a little bit of a lead up, you know, and then it kicks in and it's like addiction, you know. I've just become a full blown addict where it's like the relief, there's a relief in sitting back down and being engaged with it. And there's also this sense of impending greater relief that you're nearing a certain finish line.

And there's a discomfort with not working more quickly towards that as a book writer, I'm sure you've experienced this, right? Yes, I relate to this, with basically any assignment I'm sure you've experienced this, right? Yes, I relate to this. With basically any assignment I'm working on, the hardest part is getting yourself to actually start. I remember with one breath, I was terrified because I'd spent the better part of a year researching

and I had all this research. Now it was time to act. I had an outline. Now it was time to actually do it. And I was terrified that I couldn't do it. I had like two and a half months to write a book. Did you have like an extended period of paralysis though, before you actually started getting on it?

Yeah, I think I could have started writing it while I was still researching it, but I told myself, no, you gotta do the research first. But I told myself, no, you gotta do the research first. And then I couldn't, luckily in that situation, I couldn't afford to have the paralysis. So I've had extended periods of paralysis with the current book I'm writing with my- Well, deadlines will cure you of supposed writer's block

that we like to indulge in. There was no chance of paralysis for that. So I just dove in, but what you're talking about is the pressure is on you and you feel the pressure. And then as soon as you start, especially in a writing process, I find you get some ease right away. You feel like, okay, I can now see myself

if I just do that again, I can get to the end. And then once you're past that- Well, it's like a locomotive. The first part is so slow. And then you hit a certain inflection point where you're like, okay, I feel like I know what I'm doing. I wouldn't say downhill, but you hit a stride. Yeah, and you get the momentum and that carries you.

And then, yeah. Momentum is so powerful. It's such a self-perpetuating energy source. It's so difficult to covet, but once you have it, I feel like it's so important to protect it against everything else because it's fleeting. Like if that momentum gets drained somehow, I just know all too well how difficult it is

to get back into that state where you can allow the momentum to propel you forward. Yeah, it takes consistency to get back to the momentum. Cause if you have it going, then you have to take a break, then it's gonna take a couple of days for you to get back into the groove. So this process for me always connects me with like guilt and shame.

Cause I feel like why can't I just work on it responsibly an hour or two a day? Then I would be in lockstep with my team who has been doing that all along rather than trying to play catch up, which makes me feel even guiltier. But I've learned, Julie's always like, it's because you love it this way.

You love it. Don't complain. You're not allowed to complain about this because you always do this. Right, right, right. There's some part of you that likes it or get something out of it, right? Even if it's an unhealthy habit,

it's still doing something for me, which is why I keep doing it. The procrastination creates pressure and the pressure creates better work. Yeah, so the way I rationalize it is, this is what I need to do to do my best work. Like I can't just pop in and out because it's in hour six

that things really start to come together. And it's that experience of immersion where you're just totally all in and the rest of the world disappears that you put yourself in the position for that like extra peace to come out. I think there's something to that. I don't think it's a hard and fast rule,

but I think it's something to that. Like if you're really under the gun, that's when, and you're living and breathing it, there's no separation. Certainly you can have some great moments of inspiration, but you can also have them on a walk in the middle of that kind of experience. I'm gonna take a walk, I'm gonna go outside

and catch my breath and then it comes to you. So I don't, a long while ago, I kind of stopped trying to figure out what the perfect conditions are for writing or what the best place to do it or how to do it or this process or that process. You just have to do it in whatever way you can get to it. The fact that this is your process now is great.

And Rob Bell says, every project will demand maybe a slightly different process from him. And I look at him and this is total projection, but it just appears that it flows effortlessly like out of that guy because he's such a constant font of creative output. And I have this unhealthy thing,

which is if it doesn't hurt, then you didn't push yourself hard enough and it could have been better, which is at odds with this idea that I've tried to embrace, but have been unable to master, which is what if it were easy? Right, like what if it just flowed? Like what if it were easy?

What if you let go of that story that revolves around the grind and what comes out of the grind and you just allowed yourself to be in a space where it just comes because you're in the allowing rather than in the forcing. Interesting. And that's the mountain that I've tried to climb

and I'm still at the base of that mountain, I would say. Well, I have had, go ahead, sorry. No, no, please. I also get accused of interrupting you too much. I think I interrupt you constantly. I've interrupted people my entire career. At the beginning, it was really bad. I'd listened to the interview tapes

and I'd cringe at myself. It's gotten a little better, but I do it to you as well. But all I was gonna suggest was that if you look at sports or if you look at sports or if you look at how you got better at a certain thing in athletics, has it ever been through just easing up? No, and that's the lens that I use because my narrative is everything

that I've been able to accomplish is a result of me being willing to outgrind everybody else and work harder. It's not a talent thing, it's a grit thing. And so that's my default, but I'm not so sure that that is the healthiest and it's certainly not the most sustainable because it's exhausting. So I go, I do these mad sprints and then I'm depleted

and then I need to recover as opposed to what I would imagine or what I project onto Rob Bell, which is that he's just consistently, creating all the time. And I'm not saying it's effortless for him, but he would appear to have a healthier relationship with his inner muse such that he's not, like he doesn't hold himself out

as somebody who gets exhausted because he's- No, I think it's easier to be prolific if you're doing a little bit at a time every day, like the Hemingway thing from 6 a.m. to noon, and then he's at the bar kind of thing. Yeah, I think Ryan Holiday is a good job of that too. Like he talks a lot about that. Like he's just constructed his life

so that these are the hours that he does the thing. And he does it no matter what, it's a Steven Pressfield approach to the whole thing. And I really aspire to master that. I have a lot of other moving pieces in my life at the same time. When I wrote Finding Ultra, it was different. That was the only thing that was happening,

but now there's a lot going on. And so figuring out how to squeeze that in while these other things are still on track has been the challenge for me. But one thing that I have done is try to be a little bit more gentle on myself and rather than indulge in that guilt or that shame, like, why can't I do it that way?

Why do I always set myself up for this? And why am I putting myself in this position? But to just kind of let go of that and say, look, for whatever reason, this is my predisposition. This is how I'm wired. And at least for right now, I'm going to embrace that aspect of me and let go of trying to judge myself against some imaginary standard of what a balanced person's life looks like. And I think the reason that I wanted to bring this up today isn't to like talk about my personal experience,

but as an instructive kind of launch pad to talk about something that I think is very common with a lot of people, which is this idea of living a balanced life. What does it mean to pursue a life of balance? And is that something that we should even aspire to do? Right, what do you think? I don't know.

Well, I think that that sets people up for failure. And I think most people have some version of what I experienced, which is a sense that they can't live up to that. They have this idea, they look out into the world and they see person X who seems to be excelling in their life in all categories. And they say, how can I be a great mom

and be a professional at my job and make sure that there's food on the table and also go to the PTA meetings and all the stuff, right? And it sets up an unrealistic set of parameters or expectations for the average person. So my whole thing is letting go of that and focusing not on how you can be balanced on an everyday basis and all the things

that you're trying to do better at, but rather focus on the thing that you are doing in the moment and be the best version of yourself that you can in that moment. And understand that nobody can do everything every single day well. So it's more like a toggle switch of being invested in what you're doing in the moment

and then switching gears to the next thing. Like I can't, you know, first of all, multitasking is a misnomer. There's no such thing as multitasking, but we still have this idea that we can like switch gears and go back and forth from other things. And some people are better at that than others. And I've learned that I'm not good at that.

I'm good at doing one thing well, and then slowly moving to the next thing and focusing on doing that thing well. But I can't toggle switch back and forth within a single day. My wife is very good at that. Greg Anzalone is very good at that. It's a different set of skills.

So it's about understanding what your strengths are and what your weaknesses are, and then trying to orient your life around addressing those rather than guilting yourself into why you can't do it like somebody else is doing it. Maybe that's your balance. Your balance is I do one thing at a time really well. And that's how you feel the most balanced.

Like what does it even mean to be balanced? Does it mean that you can do X, Y, and Z at this incredibly high level? Cause that doesn't seem balanced to me. That just seems like great aptitude for work. Well, how are we measuring balance? And what is the timeframe? And one of the things I'm always talking about

is expanding the window upon which you're evaluating your ability to live a balanced life. If you're looking at it through the microscope of your daily routine, most people are gonna fall short of that. I fail miserably at that. But if you look at it over a long continuum, then you're giving yourself larger bandwidth to say,

I'm doing this one thing now, but what are the other things in my life that are important that are not getting as much attention as they should? When I finished this, then I gotta make sure that those things are in order. And in the background hum, the other things that are important need a little bit of daily nourishment,

but perhaps aren't going to be getting your full attention, but then understanding like, okay, when that's done, then I need to reconfigure my life to focus on these other things. So over the course of several months or a year, then it looks like it's in balance. Right. But when you look at it on a, like if you look at my life on a day-to-day basis,

it's completely out of balance. So Brad Stolberg, the other week we talked about Steve Magnus. We used his kind of quote and something that he had written as a topic for discussion. Steve's writing partner is Brad Stolberg, who's also been on the podcast,

New York Times contributor, Outside Magazine contributor. Have you ever met Brad? I have not. You'd like him, he's great. But he's written extensively about this subject. And one of the things that he said is that a lot of people swallow this cultural message of balance, balance, balance.

Then they struggle to find it and they get down on themselves because they can't do everything every single day. They think I'm gonna wake up, I'm gonna have some family time. I'm gonna work, I'm gonna go to work from nine to five. I'm gonna come home, more family time, cook dinner, watch a TV show, go to sleep.

But that's only one way to think about balance. And this is where I really resonate with Brad. He says, try thinking about balance being over a long continuum. This gives you permission to go all in for periods of time. That way you can experience flow and still have a long continuum. This gives you permission to go all in for periods of time. That way you can experience flow and still have a balanced life. It's just that the balance might be over five or 10 years,

not every single day. And a corollary to that is this idea that rather than striving for balance, striving for self-awareness instead, the ability to know your core values and evaluate the trade-offs inherent in pursuing them. And I love that. It's also the subject of a New York Times piece

that he wrote called, "'Maybe We All Need a Little Less Balance." Someone's quoted in there. Someone is quoted in there. I know, I pulled that article up. I'd forgotten that he referenced me in it. It's not why I'm bringing it up, but I just think it's a great read

for helping people recalibrate how you think about these things. And despite the fact that I've been, you know, droning on and on about this for a long time, I found myself in the process of working on this book project to go right back to that level of self judgment that's counterproductive rather than just saying, this is what I'm doing now.

For whatever reason, here I am back again, doing this thing I said, I wasn't gonna do again, which is, you know, going down the rabbit hole and blocking out everything else and not doing it in a, you know, a more managerial kind of way, but this is the way that I do it and that's okay. Yeah, I'm totally with that. I think like this idea of balance,

this idea of finding your passion and following your passion or finding the one, these are all somewhat cultural myths to some extent. And to me, we are here on earth to find ourselves first. And that requires some self-reliance and independence, but it also requires some mutual dependence and interconnection. And it's all this like equation

that we're trying to find the answer to. I mean, equanimity is kind of like a corollary to enlightenment, right? When you find like that, when the bodhisattvas and meditation to achieve equanimity is to achieve enlightenment. Well, what does equanimity mean? Right.

It means that no one achieves it in their day-to-day life. Right. And so, yes, in terms of how do you get the best conditions for you to feel comfortable in your skin, comfortable in your life, having your family do well, having your career do well, all that balance sheet. To me, we're talking like life's balance sheet. And like, that's a moving,

those graphs are like jumping up and down. And I think when it comes to writing, two things come to mind. Number one is you just have to get the work done and you have to live with those critics, like the hecklers from the Muppet show in your head that are gonna constantly be jabbering, not to date myself, but constantly jabbering in your head

about what you're doing and the way you're doing it. The two old guys up there. The two old guys up there. Tune out the boomers in your head about what you're doing and the way you're doing it. The two old guys up there. The two old guys up there. Tune out the boomers in your head. And you just have to surrender to the process and the process is going to be uncomfortable a lot of the time. The idea of flow state and athletics,

I think you can find it and you can find it in writing. I have found it in writing where I'm like, wow, this is amazing. And I feel like all, I feel the flow. But just because the experience feels good though, doesn't mean the work will turn out like to be good. Yeah, that's the illusion, right? You think, oh, it's going good, it's going good.

But then no, back to the drawing board, pick it up another day and look at it. Right, and sometimes you bleed the words. Every word costs like a pint of flesh or something. And then you go back to read it and you're like, wow, that was really good. You hated the day, it felt miserable. When that happens to me though,

that just affirms that story that pain is the driver of quality. Right. Which is not a healthy. No, so I think whether you're feeling doubt about a project or feeling good about the project, the key is to turn tune both those things out to get the project done.

That's my only experience of it. And it's something that I struggle with every day. Like last week I was the one complaining about my writing process. It's not comfortable. It's not necessarily always a fun job. Yeah, and you're doing it now with a newborn, like you have a new set of challenging,

complicated variables that you didn't have to deal with before. It's true, it's true. But at the same time, I have more time to actually every day go and do a thing because I haven't been on the road. And so, but that hasn't led to prolific, me being super prolific yet.

But well, I like that idea that Brad talks about with self-awareness and I think it's related to the piece you were speaking about with respect to equanimity. Yeah. You know, like be the most present and self-aware that you possibly can when you're in the midst of doing the one thing that you're doing.

You know, and that idea of equanimity made me think of that, I don't know who said it, that quote, that nature is never in a hurry, but everything always gets done. And I think about that and I'm like, I'm always in a hurry. Most of the stuff I'm trying to do doesn't get done. But looking at your life, I would find that to be completely untrue.

That's the story, I'm like, why didn't I do that? I didn't get anything done today. You know, that's the self-defeating looping, you know, thought pattern that's going on in my mind that if I don't make the time to meditate and practice those mindfulness things that are so annoying, like that gets the best of me. You definitely feel it.

Like when I don't do that, those little pieces, like the, you know, I'm not really having time to meditate too much, but I have like an affirmation with Zuma every morning after yoga, if I get to yoga, if I can do it. So it's like, you know, you're right. If you can start off and hit the first things that you know are good for you,

then maybe you have a chance at finding balance that day. You're taking out an insurance policy on having a better day. But this idea of balance though, like you're saying, I think the whole inspiration for you, right? I mean, correct me if I'm wrong is, it's okay to tackle this book that way. Cause it might just be the way you are now, Rich Roll, this version of yourself,

that's your nature right now. Doesn't mean that will be your nature forever. It's definitely my nature. And the idea is for me, I think, to be in self-acceptance of that, but also not do it in a self-destructive addictive way. Like to get the best out of my ability to immerse myself in a project and be focused without the kind of downside aspects of it

that I think are a relic of history of alcoholism that I think comes into play. I think about that when I'm out riding my bike up PCH and I see the surfers out there or somebody out swimming and I'm like, I should be swimming or I should be surfing. And I can guarantee you if I was surfing, I'd see a cyclist and I'd the surfers out there or somebody out swimming and I'm like, I should be swimming or I should be surfing. And I can guarantee you if I was surfing, I'd see a cyclist and I'd be like, I really should be on my bike right now.

You know what I mean? Like there's always, it's not a grass is greener thing. It's more like wanting to do everything simultaneously all the time and just being present for what you're doing in the moment. It's like living at the intersection of YOLO and FOMO. Yeah. You don't wanna be there.

How do those two intersect in the Venn diagram? That'll be next week's roll on. Well, the more YOLO, the less FOMO, right? Right, but what you're saying is you have FOMO for the YOLO you're not doing. Yeah, that's true. Because there's always something else that you're saying is you have FOMO for the YOLO you're not doing. Yeah, that's true. Because there's always something else that you're missing out on.

There's multiple YOLOs. Yeah, in the extended YOLO universe, there's infinite FOMOs. Right, yes, yes, exactly. But when you think of YOLO, you don't think of hunching over a computer and typing a book. Although when you think of FOMO, you can definitely,

God, that book's out. Well, I could be out training and saying, oh my God, like I really need to be getting on this, like I have anxiety because the book is not gonna write itself, that kind of thing. And these years don't come back to you. They do not, they do not. Did we accomplish anything productive for the listeners

in talking about that? Well, you know what I think? I think the listeners are gonna be like, wow, Rich is just as fucked up as we are. There's hope. There's hope for us all. There's hope. Cool, so let's do a little bit of show and tell, shall we?

Let's do it. We got a little Shreemu out here on the desk today. And there's a reason for that. The reason that I'm doing a little show and tell around it today is because Shreemu has just, so for those who are listening who don't know what I'm talking about, Shreemu is my wife's plant-based cheese company.

It's really remarkable stuff that she's created. There was a recent review. Somebody said, this cheese is absolutely lusty. It's a whole new cheese planet. I thought that was a great review, but anyway, I'm bringing it up because it's a subscription model. You order these cheese wheels, they're artisanal, like just next level, the next evolution of cheese,

like your favorite camembert or brie, like insane. But the subscription box has traditionally been like a large box that is, you know, can be pricey for certain people. So they just launched a two wheel box, which is much more affordable. The two wheel flavor options are, Julia always has these great names,

Awaken Magic, which is gold alchemy and elder or Awaken Heart, which is birdie and elder. Gold alchemy is sort of like a smoked Gouda infused with smoke and turmeric. The Elder is like a brie. The Birdie is like a camembert with truffle in it. They're insane. But this two wheel box is 59 bucks plus shipping

for a subscription or $69 plus shipping for a one-time purchase. And they're running a special Father's Day special, which is why I'm bringing it up right now. Where you can get 10% off any Awaken Two Wheel or Devoted, which is their three wheel box or Ritual, their four wheel box, if you order before or by June 11th. So the orders will ship June 14th

and you use the coupon code FATHERSDAY10 at checkout, and that's what you do. So Blake, can you pull this up? The website is srimu, S-R-I-M-U.com slash fathers-day, and you can see the offering there, but it's really remarkable stuff. And I just wanted to shout out the Father's Day special because, you know, hardworking, nurturing dads of the world could do with a little bit of a plant-based luxury.

You know, I purchased it, the Mother's Day special version of that. And it was a big hit, it is a big hit. Yeah, so Blake, it's srimu.com slash fathers-day. Should pull up right there and you could see it. It's that special URL. So Father's Day 10 at checkout for 10% off. There you go.

Boom. Happy Father's Day. Look at that beautiful cheese, right? This cheese is nuts. This cheese is nuts. A couple other show and tells things that I wanted to do. My boy, Simon Hill from the Plant Proof Podcast, his book, The Proof is in the Plants

is out in Australia right now. So for anybody who's in Oz, who's listening, you should pick that up. I think it was a number one bestseller in the nonfiction category or something like that. Like he's killing it out there. Also his podcast is fantastic. I talk about it all the time.

If you're not listening to that, you should check it out. And the book is gonna be dropping in the US, I think a while ago he said two months. So maybe in July, I'll keep you posted on that, but I'm excited for that book to be available here in the US. Simon really knows his stuff. He also has a really great affect in terms of talking about nutrition

and navigating the peccadilloes of the online nutrition wars in terms of his plant-based advocacy. He's just, he's a beautiful guy. He's ripped, it's fantastic. He's got a great restaurant in Bondi called Eden, Eden Bondi. So if you haven't eaten there, next time you find yourself in Bondi,

you're gonna have to go to Eden. Dude, I might find myself there soon because someone's got a passport. That's right. The baby got a passport. You got an Australian passport. No, we got a US passport for the baby. For the baby, oh, a US passport for the baby.

Who was I talking to though? Somebody was telling me they just got an Australian passport. We're headed in that direction. You gotta, you have to, you know, he had to get his passport first and then he'll be the first to get residency if he wanted or get a passport if he wants. And then can you get a passport for Australia?

And then I can go through the process too. But I think, I don't know if I'll get a passport. I can get residency. I don't think I can get a passport, no. Interesting. Yeah. Should we talk about the spirited man? Let's talk about the spirited man. Did you check this out? I did.

I watched all the way through. How many of them did you watch? Blake pulled out a YouTube channel. I watched all the way through the fourth turning. You did? Yes. The fourth turning was good. Yeah, the fourth turning has 800 something thousand views.

That's the one. So the spirited man is a relatively brand new YouTube channel and video series, courtesy of Van Nystad, who is the older brother of Casey Nystad, the OG in the YouTube space. Casey and Van started out together before YouTube even existed. These guys were making videos together.

They both had a tenure with Tom Sachs, the fine artist. You can see both of the Nystap brothers aesthetic reflected in what Tom Sachs does. And it's interesting, Van is, I've known Casey for years. He's been on the podcast a bunch of times. Like he was on before he even became, like he was a YouTuber, but before he was a vlogger. Right.

It's been a long time. We should have Casey back on, but I didn't know anything about Van. And then out of the blue, Van launches this YouTube channel, I think like six or seven weeks ago, he's already got 380,000 subscribers. It's a series called the spirited man.

Each video is its own short story, standalone, curio like art pieces. Yeah. Beautifully rendered, well thought out philosophical reflections on the human condition essentially. Yes. And his particular spirited man. Yes, exactly. philosophical reflections on the human condition essentially. And I just love it. And his particular spirited man.

Yes, exactly. His own spirited man journey. They are so unique and original. And I think that is in part because this is a guy who's not on social media. I don't think he's a guy who watches YouTube. He's coming to the platform with his own sensibility that's uncorrupted by everything else

that we kind of scroll and see every single day. So there's a purity to it that's really beautiful and I think is lending itself to this skyrocketing popularity. I mean, in no time, this guy's like made an imprint on YouTube and I'm excited to see where this goes. Everybody should check it out. The spirited man on YouTube.

Yeah, I got through, are you spirited actually, now that I'm looking at it. Are you spirited? Yeah, so, and he's coming on the podcast on Wednesday. Fantastic, you get to even hear more about him. I'm gonna break it down with him. A couple of- Did you watch the one on does running suck?

I did not. I don't need to know. I know the answer to that, but actually now that I'm doing zone two, I actually quite like it. You do. Yeah. Right. But one thing that I got out of it was the reward

for good work is more work, which I love that. Yeah. That phrase and the episode on the fourth turning is very interesting. It kind of speaks to the moment in time we're having right now. He's basically does a, it's a book report. He simplifies an argument

without you having to read the book. But what I like about it is he goes for depth. He goes for- It's all about that. It's all about like, what's bubbling beneath all of this madness that we have to contend with. And within himself, which you can tell, there's kind of like that simmering of not discontent,

but just like, what does it all mean kind of thing. But with that sometimes comes like a discontent, you know, and trying to figure out, he talks a lot about repair, he's a fix it. Yeah, so there's a old soul kind of, you know, out of step with time aspect of him because he wants to fix everything and we live in a disposable culture.

So what does it mean to be a repair man in the vernacular of the fourth turning, right? As a Gen Z guy who's very good at repairing things when the kind of call to repair is an antiquated concept. In a way, although I wouldn't say this cause he's not like getting into mindfulness at all specifically yet. But one thing that came to mind is it's almost like

the new version of Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance but as a YouTube series. Because he's getting into like the whole nature of repair and the fact that he's called to do that and why that's important to him. Nothing's on the nose, but in a way, like you get his worldview on it in a way that reminds me of that book, but I haven't read that book in a long time, but it comes to mind.

Well, he, in the fourth turning video, you see when he's stacking the books, you see all those books, there was one book that's called The Soul of Repair or something like that. I forget what the name of it is, but it's kind of a Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance type of book.

I think it's more like a manual, but I saw an interview with Van and he said, in that book, there is a passage in which it talks about the spirited man. It uses that- Right, no, he said that in that video, there is a passage in which it talks about the spirited man. It uses that- Right, no, he said that in that video. Yes, yes, yes. So that became the concept upon which he built this.

He's like, the spirited man, what would the spirited man do? And it's all in the third person. He's like this spirited man, this spirited man or the spirited woman. But when you talk about a spirited horse, it's usually someone that's like, hey, what, the horse is like nudging the other horse

or whatever. But the connotation that I read into that is somebody who is out of step with the typical culture. Like he's seeing things other people aren't seeing, like the whole thing with like fixing the dishwasher and fixing the Toyota grill. It's like the universe is not correct in this and I must correct it or I can't rest easy.

Or he can't move on. This is the compulsion of the spirited man. Which I love it. And so I'm all for it. I think it's an amazing, thank you for turning me onto it. I'll be watching them all. It's cool. So we have that conversation coming up to look forward to.

In the meantime, check it out and subscribe. Oh, wait, I have a couple of show and tell. Go for it. What do you got there? I just wanted to show you this new contraption I got. I knew it. I knew it. You came in and you said,

I have a special show and tell, should I surprise you or show you now? And I was like, surprising you, but I think I already know what it is. This particular spirited man swims in a mask. You do. For those on audio only, you just donned a diving mask

that looks like it came from a different era. I am a man out of step with my time. You are. The spirited man is not a fan of swimming goggles. The spirited man uses a mask because thereby he can decide at one moment to dive instead of swim. Yeah, that's right. What is that particular model of spirit mask?

Would you like a warranty for this mask? I don't know. Because it comes with one. Aqua lung. Aqua lung. Right. It's the Aqua lung. For your eyes. Sparrow.

And oddly enough. This is your replacement mask. This is the replacement mask for the one that was lost. But you see, I can breathe out, I can exhale out of my nose. It is at least a little bit more streamlined and goggle-like. That's my point.

So you're finding some middle ground. I feel like this is diplomacy. This particular spirited man's mask was created as an open water swim goggle replacement. No, I'm not kidding. And then, but swimmers scoff at masks like yourself. And so free divers had to embrace it for it to live. And here it is.

And it's a new version. It's got racing stripes. Have you noticed that? I haven't, no, I can't see that far. Anyway. All right, well, good man. So I will relent. A detente has been achieved.

Yes, in the Oslo talks. The Oslo talks are being achieved now that the mask is on the podcast. I just thought the listeners would love to see that. It's good. The other thing that I found is, listen, not everyone likes biographies of long gone sports stars.

I'm not gonna belabor the point. I've been really enjoying this Duke Hanamoko biography. It's relatively recent. It didn't come out ononomoko biography. It's relatively recent. It's not, it didn't come out on a big publisher. It's University of Nebraska Press. And it's really painstakingly kind of creates his life. It's not like the most compelling read for people who aren't interested in sports like that or his,

but I do think that if you love water sports, Duke Ahonomoko was a three-time Olympian over four separate Olympiads. His peak, he would have been right when World War I happened. So he didn't even get to go to his, when he was his peak condition. I didn't know that.

Yeah. I didn't know that it was four Olympiads. So he was 21, 22 years old in 1912. And that was his first Olympiad. And they competed in Antwerp. And it was like a canal, like a drainage ditch. It was freezing.

Like the water was like, they were shivering. That's what it was like in 1912. He set world records. He won the 100, he won the 200, I believe, and got a silver in the relay. That he went back eight years later and defended his titles, won a couple more golds. And then he won a silver in the,

I think in the 100 in the third Olympiad beat by Johnny Weissmuller. Yeah, so he was way past his prime at that point. Right, he was in his thirties. 1916 would have been his peak. 1916 was gonna be his peak and he didn't even get to compete because of World War I.

And then 1920 was in, that might've been Antwerp. Yeah, 1912 was in Sweden, excuse me. And 1916 was in Antwerp and it was freezing and it was like in Belgium and it had been decimated by World War I. And so like these, but this was the beginning, kind of early, early days of Olympiad. 1912, he competed alongside Jim Thorpe, two guys.

Jim Thorpe was the decathlete and the greatest athlete of the first 50 years of the 20th century. It's been declared that by basically everybody. Jim Thorpe and Duke both went to schools where they were not allowed to speak their native languages. Jim Thorpe is indigenous American. And Duke is full-blooded Hawaiian. And so they had that connection

and they were kind of really heroes to America at a time when- Massive hero. At a time when racism was like off the charts. It was like, you know, Jim Crow was just getting huge and it was the birth of the nation time and all of that. And so here, these two guys come and capture the imagination of America at such a fraught time.

But he wasn't just the greatest swimmer of his era. He was also the greatest surfer of his era. I know. I mean, he transcended sport. He became a cultural icon. He did. To this day, it resonates all across the world. It's unbelievable.

It's amazing they haven't made a movie, like a movie of those two lives in tandem and parallel of Thorpe and- That's what I'm saying. And Duke together. Yeah, like these two guys, but then if you look at just at Duke, he got during the influenza epidemic,

he got influenza. One of the swimmers that he used to compete with early on died of it. He could have died, but an ex-girlfriend found him like at the YMCA in New York, like coughing up a lung bleeding and got him treatment, or maybe it was in Germany, excuse me, and saved him. And so he got that.

There was an incident that was recalled in this book when he was surfing in Newport beach, cause he lived here in California. He was pursuing acting and he was in a bunch of films and he was surfing. He camped on the beach at Corona Del Mar and it was a 20 foot day or something crazy. And a boat, they saw a boat coming in that got capsized. And he went out three different times on his surfboard

and he saved seven people's lives. Like maybe more, maybe it was like 10 people on, like pulling them on, because his surfboards weren't like today's surfboards. They were a hundred pound plus pieces of wood that he carved himself and shaped himself. You can't imagine a more- And he was a cultural icon at that time, right?

He already was. It would be as if Laird Hamilton was out there pulling people out of that sea. It's exactly that. And TMZ would be swarming and it would be like if Laird Hamilton was out there pulling people out of that. It's exactly that. And TMZ would be swarming and it would be like a huge media event. If your life was saved by Laird Hamilton. Right.

That's exactly what it was. But he also had all sorts of money problems and different issues. So it's not like everything was a home run for him. What was ultimately Hawaii's relationship to him once he became big and like moved to the States? So that's a good question. So what happened was he did the Olympics,

then he decided he'd go pro. After a while, he decided to go pro, but he couldn't really get a stage show off the ground swimming. And so he came back and retained his amateur status. But in the meantime, went to Hollywood to try to make movies. He was there for a period of time, came back to Hawaii.

And for whatever reason, you know, he couldn't figure out a business that he could catch onto that would be successful. He ends up like, they think they're doing him a solid, hey, come work at the city in City Hall in Honolulu. And basically they have him sweeping and mopping the floors. Like he was like, like that's how he was treated. So then his friends in LA said, come back here.

And he came back and worked and coached at the LA athletic club and was here and worked at the beach club by the beach here. But he does end up- Like the Jonathan club or one of those- The beach club, I think. Where's that? It's right next to the Jonathan club.

Yeah, but one of those two. And then he ends up back in Hawaii after all, and runs for sheriff and becomes the sheriff of Oahu. I didn't know that. Yeah, he became the sheriff of Oahu for years. But the reason I bring it up is because in this book, they reference that he's on, this is your life. And I went and the episode is on YouTube.

So if you wanna have 30 minute kind of primer and see Duke and see his whole family and everything, This is Your Life, that old TV show. Right, from what year was this? It's gotta be the 60s. 52 or that early? Maybe it's the 60s. I have to have to look again, but the ads are hilarious.

It's really funny to see old television and it's fun. All right, well, we'll throw that link up in the show notes. The book Waterman is by what's the other name? David Davis. Yeah, so I think, I mean, I'm thoroughly enjoying it, but obviously I'm mystified by this guy's story. It's just incredible. It's pretty cool.

Yeah. Why hasn't there been a movie about this guy? It seems like it's like a chariots of fire kind of thing. Yeah, it could be. If you did it with Thorpe. I think you'd wanna do a Thorpe. I would love to do that. Like a Duke and Thorpe kind of, you see them over time.

Thorpe ends up an alcoholic and he died in a trailer. You really see, one thing I'm getting from reading this is you really do see how athletes that are at their peak and really the top of their sports as young men, how hard it is for them to kind of figure out the next act, which we know, we've talked about that. Yeah, your life peaks at such an early age and you have the adulation of the world.

Like, how are you gonna top that? How are you gonna find meaning in something else? It's like Raging bull and Jake LaMotta when he's, you know, staring in the mirror at the end and he's all fat and he owns that bar. And he's just dining out on, you know, past glory. And it's also, it's a trip to see how Waikiki used to be and how like the estuaries were drained

and all those be like, you know, it's also makes you kind of feel for how did we develop this way and why? And we didn't know, we didn't care. Is it a mixture of we didn't know, we didn't care? Probably, yeah. Well, the whole history of Hawaii is so fraught and- But it's not just there.

You could say the same thing, any colonized power, like in Bali right now, the main garbage dump is in the middle of the wetlands. Who put the first garbage dump in the middle of the wetlands in Bali? Most likely I would submit would be the Dutch did that when the Dutch were the colonists in Indonesia. So, you know, why?

Because people didn't know that Western culture, developer culture, which was kind of part of the colonists game, they weren't thinking about the relationship of wetlands and estuaries to their- We're here, we're planting our flag and we're gonna conquer this land. It's muddy, it's muddy.

It's dead space, you can't build on it. You can't farm in it. All right, well, let's pivot to Winds of the Week. Let's do it. We got a couple of good ones. First up, we have Hela Sidibe, who just completed a run across the entire United States. This guy is so cool and inspirational.

He just seems like he's overflowing with positivity and gratitude. He's a former MLS soccer player who basically just was like, I'm gonna run across the country. I think he's like a YouTuber too, just completed this. Yeah, he is a YouTuber. This run.

Yeah. And there was footage, he was live streaming it yesterday. And my friend, Robbie Ballinger, who also ran across America, who's how I found out about Hella, because Robbie's been really supporting him over the course of this endeavor. He flew out to the middle of the country,

I don't know, a couple months ago and ran with him for a couple of days, showed up just outside New York City to run the final leg with him. And they're all sharing it on Instagram live and stuff. And it was so cool because he had all, it was like a parade processional as they all advanced into the city.

He was sponsored by Gymshark and Gymshark had this giant like topless bus where they were like pumping hip hop music. And it was like a party going on. And he was just like this cheerleader, with a big smile on his face and just positive energy for miles as they made it into the city.

It was really cool to watch. I called Robbie right after it just to get his low down. And he's like, you gotta meet this guy. He's so great, you know, super cool. And what was also cool, speaking of Van Nystad and the spirited man, Casey showed up to document that final leg too. He was shooting, you know, all kinds of footage.

So we'll see what comes out of that. That'll be a good episode. It was cool to see those two guys, both friends of the podcast, both friends in general, there to help support like this amazing human do something cool and extraordinary. And then at the finish line,

it was being broadcast on Hela's Instagram live, but the sound went out, so you couldn't hear anything that was going on. Yeah, I had that same problem. But when I talked to Robbie, he said, I told him, I was like, we couldn't, nobody could hear what was happening. And he's like, well, he proposed to his girlfriend.

Oh my God. Right in Manhattan at the conclusion of this 3000 mile run, which I thought was pretty cool. Yeah, it'd be super harsh for her to have said no. Yeah. That was obviously not gonna happen. I don't think that was gonna happen. You know what I loved about the finish

was he sprints to the finish, then he leaps in the air. Uh-huh. I mean, he's been running. Well, it was like a party going into the city. It wasn't like, they weren't like hammering, you know? But he's been running every day for like 40 mile days. Well, also on top of the cross country run, he has some crazy run streak going on.

I think for like the last four years, he hasn't missed a day of running. So for him, it ain't nothing but a thing. Apparently he's the first black man to do the cross country run in America. Is that right? I didn't know that. That's what he said and it's been written up that way. So yeah.

Cool, I gotta get this guy on the show. You do. Yeah. Gotta make that happen. So guy on the show. You do. Yeah. Gotta make that happen. So congrats, Hella. Congrats, Hella. Everybody should follow him on Instagram. He's hellagood9, H-E-L-L-A-H, good9. That's his website up there that Blake pulled up,

hellagood.com. What a stuff. Mad respect. And can't wait to find a way to sit down with you and hear all about this crazy adventure. Awesome. Should we talk about the greatest showdown in the history of track and field that happened last week?

Let's talk about it. Malcolm Gladwell versus Chris Chavez. Did you watch it? I did. It was pretty impressive. I mean, Gladwell is very, very impressive. It's so funny. I love everything about this.

I'm so here for it. Basically for those that aren't familiar, Chris Chavez, who I've never met, but I feel like is an internet friend of mine. He writes for Sports Illustrated. He covers track and field and marathons in the Olympics for that publication. He's also a part of Sidious Mag where he, I don't know if he blogs there,

but he does a podcast. He's a podcast host. He's a announcer. He was also at this track meet, like announcing other races. He's kind of just a man about town in terms of covering track and field and marathoning in the Olympics,

running in the Olympics. Young guy, 27. At some point, I don't know how the genesis of this whole thing, but Chris challenged Malcolm or Malcolm, I don't know who challenged you. I thought it was Chris challenged Malcolm, but yeah. Yeah, I think Chris challenged Malcolm to see who could run the fastest mile.

Chris, 27, Malcolm Gladwell, 58. He calls himself the skinny Canadian. He is skinny. Like I was shocked how like his legs too. But kind of under appreciated in terms of his running capability. Oh my goodness. He's a very good runner and he trains really hard.

Like I know plenty of runners in New York City who will tell you like, oh, he's down at the track on the lower east side all the time. You know, you can find him out there and you know, he hits it really hard. So even though he's 58, he comes from a track field background. He's an excellent runner in high school.

And I think he ran in college too and has stayed competitive. I don't think he's raced in a couple of years. So this was gonna be the first race in a while. And the lead up to this was so delicious because there was a lot of smack talking back and forth. Chris was trying to pump people up, you know, and he said at one point,

my mother is so confused why I'm racing an old man. And then Malcolm said, I'm pretty sure I'm older than your mom. Which is probably true. And I can tell you from friends that I have that are excellent runners who know Malcolm, I've never met Malcolm, but the word on the street is that Malcolm Gladwell

is a world-class sandbagger. Like he's the guy, he'll always tell you, oh, you know, I didn't sleep or I'm like, you know, I don't have it today. Like he'll always downplay everything and then he'll just own you. Like that's his MO, right? I love that.

So you come in, you set the expectation low and you create a situation in which you can over deliver. It's funny, cause even the race started out that way. Like you saw him like drift to the back, maybe to get out of Chris's view or something like that. And then he just tracked him down. Right, so the whole thing going into this was I'm old, you know, like just sandbagging all the way, right? And then when you watched the mile,

which took place in New York City, it was part of, you know, a legitimate meet called the New York City Qualifier, where a bunch of track and field athletes were trying to make Olympic trials qualifying times. And it wasn't just Chris and Malcolm, it was a field of legitimate runners. They had a rabbit, they had a bunch of, you know,

elite athletes running. The one, the whoop, the person who works at whoop won the thing, the woman. She work at whoop? I think so. I think she's with Tracksmith. Oh, Tracksmith. Yeah, I think she's with Tracksmith.

Malcolm's also with Tracksmith, I believe. She was great. She won the whole thing. She won the whole thing. She crushed it. Who's all, what's her name? I'm blanking on her name right now, but her sister is also an exceptional

track and field athlete. In any event, yeah, Malcolm goes out, Chris takes it out. I think they both had aspirations or at least Chris publicly had aspirations of trying to break five minutes in this mile. So Chris takes it out. I think they both had aspirations or at least Chris publicly had aspirations of trying to break five minutes in this mile. So Chris takes it out. They have a rabbit out there who's holding five minute pace.

Chris is kind of sitting right behind him, but Malcolm dropped way back. So for the first half of the race, he was kind of in no man's land way behind. And then he just picked up the pace and very slowly but legitimately worked his way up the field and just passed Chris like he was standing still and crushed him.

Totally. Just crushed him. Unbelievable. They were both quite shy of breaking five. Malcolm ran 515 and Chris ran 523. Chris was a good sport about the whole thing, but I just loved that Malcolm owned him in that way. Me too. At 58 years of age. Izzy Seidel is her name.

Izzy Seidel, yeah. So Molly Seidel is Izzy's sister. And then Izzy, I think works at Tracksmith. I don't know if she's trying to get to the Olympics or not, but she looked great and she was under five minutes. Yeah, she was like 454 or something. She was like the smoothest. Like it looked like it didn't even,

Right. It didn't even phase her. She's a powerhouse. Oh my goodness. You know, for sure. Yeah. Anyway, it was super fun to watch It looked like it didn't even phase her. She's a powerhouse. Oh my goodness. For sure. Anyway, it was super fun to watch the YouTube of the whole thing. Well, the whole track meet is on YouTube, but you can fast forward and watch the race of these guys.

It was really fun to see that. And that was a true, much like the Des Linden 50K world record. It was a kind of an internet experience where the whole internet kind of tuned in to see how this was gonna go down. It was great. And I think, you know,

Malcolm talks about this himself quite a bit. Like how do you make people more interested in sport? Like he's talked about how in triathlon, they should put the swimming last. Like if they wanna make it hard, like wear them out and then make them swim and see who survives that. Wouldn't that be more interesting?

Like, you know, in his classic hot take, yeah, you know, we might have problems, right? But in his classic, like, you know, contrarian hot take, you know, perspective, I think it is, this race was an example of how to get people who perhaps aren't super dialed in and interested in track and field. Like I don't watch track and field meets.

No. But I watched this, right? Like more of this please. And then perhaps we can, you know, all get a little bit more excited about this stuff. So Blake just pulled up the races. Is this it? No, I think it's at like 40.

Yeah, it's 45 minutes. Some odd 45 minutes in or some 48. I understand what you're saying, but I think I'd rather's at like 40. Yeah, it's 45 minutes. 45 minutes in or something, 48. I understand what you're saying, but I think I'd rather watch Usain Bolt. Listen, I'm not saying at the cost of true track and field, but I'm saying in addition to that, I think it's cool to play with the format a little bit. Like they're doing this with swimming.

They have these pro circuit meets now where they're trying different events and sprint events and things that like get the audience, a typical audience that isn't steeped in the swimming culture to get interested about this stuff. And I feel like this accomplished that in a really kind of great way. Yeah, like when would you ever watch

this particular event? You know, like there's at least like, this is not like- No, but I was like in my car, I was in the passenger seat of my car when it was going, I was like, we have to pull over or you have to like, let me see what is happening right now. Like, look at him, he's got the compression socks on.

Yeah, he's in spikes too. Not everybody was in spikes. Everybody's in their twenties. But not everyone was in spikes, isn't that interesting? I think Chris is too. Chris is in spikes. Yeah But not everyone was in spikes. Isn't that interesting? I think Chris is too. Chris is in spikes. Spikes was an interesting choice. So he doesn't do road.

He mostly does track. He's a track guy. And he's super into it. Like he's on the reading the forums and he knows everything that's going on in track and field. But I just thought it was great. Pretty impressive. At 58, 515 and 58.

Good for him. Unbelievable. Steve Magnus tweeted, but I just thought it was great. Pretty impressive. At 58, 515 and 58, good for him, unbelievable. Steve Magnus tweeted, experience defeats youth in the running journalist slash influencer mile. They both are kind of small, right? Like Chris is about the same size. Well, Chris is more built.

Like he's got a little more kind of bulk on him. I mean, Malcolm has the classic runner, super skinny, you know, physique. Look how easy they're going. I know, Malcolm has the classic runner, super skinny physique. Look how easy they're going with it. I know it looks like they're running slow. It's a five minute pace. Look how easy that is for them. I know it's crazy.

And lots of women in there mixing it up who- Dominated by a woman. Yeah, for sure. She won by like 20 meters or something. But look at Malcolm just sits behind Chavez. He's just gonna let, you know, he's biding his time. That's the experience. That's the experience.

He could create the perception that Chris was gonna run away with it. Yes. It does look like they're running slow, doesn't it? It's crazy. It does, there's an optical illusion afoot. Yeah. Anyway, good times.

I loved it. In the wake of it, Chris being a good sport tweeted, "'Got my ass kicked in the mile by Gladwell." And then Malcolm responds to that by saying, "'Happy to try again when you're my age and I'm 87.'" Yeah, cause Chris right away wanted a rematch. Yeah, yeah. We'll do it when you're my age, we'll try that.

That's hilarious. Like I said, more of this, I think it's fun. I don't think that it, there's any negative impact to the greater track and field universe by doing stuff like this from time to time. No, I don't see, no, not at all. Like, is that what someone's worried about? No, I just think like, you know,

there is a vein of thought that is, you know, oriented around respect for traditional, the traditional way of doing it. Okay. This is track and field. Like how dare you, you know, spoil or corrupt our little universe with some stunt. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's interesting, you know, Phil Mickelson, who won a major in the PGA, he tried that when there was no golf going on, didn't he have like put together, he and Tiger put together like matches. He was, one was with Peyton Manning, the other was with Tom Brady or something. There's side L, look at her crush it.

Look at her. 450, yeah, 455. 455, 455. Let look at her crush it. Look at her. 4.50, yeah, 4.55. 4.55, 4.55. Let's give her 4.54. Let's give her 4.54, 67. Yeah, she wins by six seconds. Yeah. It's crazy.

I know. Anyway, all right, let's do some listener questions. All right, let's do it. So this is, I believe it's Sierra from Kalamazoo, Michigan. Hey, Rich and Adam. My name is Sierra. I'm 23 years old and I'm currently living and going to school in Kalamazoo, Michigan. I struggled a lot with my mental health from a very young age.

At about 12, I was diagnosed with clinical depression and anxiety and I struggled for a long time. When I got to undergrad, I was stable in my mental health, but I realized how bad my physical health was. to undergrad. I was stable in my mental health, but I realized how bad my physical health was. I've since lost 50 pounds, signed up for my first marathon this summer, and just hit one year of being completely plant-based. Right now, I have a question regarding my life as it is now. I'm currently struggling with the complex of, quote, doing it all. I work about 35 hours a week in retail to pay my bills. I'm a full-time student and a teaching assistant at the school. I dedicate at least two hours a day to practicing my craft of clarinet playing, and I exercise six days a week. I'm often looked up to as a leader in my role in retail and at the school.

I'm often there to support other people, but I am living alone and halfway across the country from my family. I can't remember the last time I had a day to do nothing and I'm loving what I'm doing, but at the same time, super exhausted. Any and all advice would be welcome and thanks. Shout out to Sierra and Michigan. I know. Go blue. You're killing it. It's such a good question. I love this question. And I think it's really relevant to what we were talking about earlier about balance. I agree.

It's super related to that. That's why I put that in here. Good for you. Curating experience. See what I'm doing? I'm linking. Based on a theme. I'm linking segments. You are, I already told you your job is secure. Have you seen my swim mask?

Yeah, I have. Okay. I have. And I didn't, did I make fun swim mask? Yeah, I have. Okay. I have. And I didn't, did I make fun of you? No, I did not. I said we reached a detente in the Oslo talks. Sierra, great question. I think this is a common predicament for many.

The first thought that comes to mind is something I learned in sobriety, which is this idea of the road is always getting narrower, right? So you start out, you have these mental health struggles, you seem to get on top of that. You then set your sights on your physical health. You lose all this weight, you run a marathon.

It's like, I got it together, but the road continues to narrow and you're faced new challenges that force you to confront yourself in deeper ways. Like you've done this heavy lifting in these other areas and now this other stuff is showing up. And I think what you're experiencing is really common to a lot of people.

Again, it's related to our conversation about balance, very much rooted in that. And I think, based upon what you're saying, the way you're living your life right now is not sustainable in the long term. I think you're doing what you need to survive at the moment and pursue your goals and really develop your craft and your talent and your passion.

I think it's super laudable, like mad respect for everything that you've taken on, everything that you're shouldering right now to make all of this happen. And I think, you know, at 23, you're young, you can handle it for now, but you have taken on a lot. And I think, you know, you're gonna need to really, and it sounds like you're already doing this,

like figure out a way to pursue this path in a more sustainable way. And I suspect just based upon the way you've described yourself, that you're somebody who has a predisposition to over deliver and everything that you do. Do you get that sense, Adam? No doubt.

Yeah, she's crushing it, right? Like she's showing up and killing it in all these different areas. But I think over time, when you are that kind of person and you shoulder that kind of responsibility and you create those expectations with other people that you're engaged with, it's going to drain the joy out of everything

that you're doing and it will inevitably lead to burnout. So that's the first thing. I also, and tell me what you think, Adam, I also smell a little hint of codependence in this, this idea that Sierra is over giving of herself to meet everyone else's needs. Like she's, everybody in the retail job loves her and she's a TA, so she's there for her students.

She's showing up for all these other people at the cost of her own wellbeing, which is secondary. So she goes home at night, completely depleted and lonely because she's living alone. Yeah. So I think the first thing is figuring out how to- Maybe because she can't do that for her family because they're far away.

So it's kind of a sub for that. Right, well, I'd be interested in what the family dynamic is, right? Maybe because she can't do that for her family because they're far away. So it's kind of a sub for that. Right, well, I'd be interested in what the family dynamic is, right? Like, so is she somebody who in her rearing was somebody who showed up for other people in her family in the same way that she's doing this for her students and in her retail job?

I would suspect that that's likely. Highly likely. Yeah, right? So here she is alone, doesn't have the family support and doesn't have that outlet for, you know, showing up for other people as she did, you know, in the house growing up and she's doing it in this other way.

So I think, I think Sierra, you need to flip the script and first understand and accept that you can't be everything to everybody all the time. And as a people pleaser myself, I get it. But the question really should be, how do you please yourself? And by please yourself, I don't mean that in an indulgent or selfish way,

but really what do you need to make sure that your needs are being taken care of so that you're fit, adequately fit to show up for these other people and in all of these other areas of your life? There's a great Marcus Aurelius quote that I think is relevant to this. He said, I have often wondered how it is

that every man loves himself more than all the rest of men, but yet sets less value on his own opinion of himself than on the opinion of others. So again, this is a bit of a projection, Sierra, because I don't know you, but it sounds like you are somebody who does concern herself with the opinion of the people in your retail job and these students that you're TA,

like all these different jobs that you have and you're coming last in this. And as a result, you're suffering. So I think you need to get really clear on what your main priorities are first and foremost, figure out a way so that you can focus on that and learn to be okay with imperfection in your other areas, especially in regards to these less important facets of your life.

Like I presume that you're not pursuing a career in retail. You're trying to become this unbelievable clarinet performer, right? So how can you, and it's tough, like these are real life problems. You gotta pay your bills, you're working two jobs, you're a full-time student. Like this is not an easy equation to solve.

So the last thing I wanna do is come across as like pithy with all of this because it's very difficult. But I do think a process or a strategy for tackling this is to A, do an honest inventory of everything that you do. Literally get a notepad or a Moleskine and journal how you spend your time in 15 minute increments. Do that over a week. And I think you'll get an objective picture

on how you're actually spending your time. There probably will be surprising areas where you're spending more time doing something than you originally thought that you were. That will give you a launch pad to then evaluate what it is that you could possibly let go of or deescalate and other areas of your life that are not getting the adequate amount of attention

and give you a roadmap for how you could perhaps simplify your life. Like if your life is so crowded and so complicated that you're going from one thing to the next thing, to the next thing, to the next thing, never really having the bandwidth to invest in any self-care whatsoever and then just coming home and crashing,

that's not a great life plan. And as somebody who's trying to cultivate a creative talent, you need that nurturing time in order to really connect with the best of what you have to offer with respect to this art form that you're pursuing. You just can't succeed in life. You can't succeed in your goals unless you take care of yourself first.

And you actually can't adequately take care of yourself first. And you actually can't adequately take care of all these other people that you're trying to take care of right now unless you take care of yourself first. So approach it not from the perspective of that being indulgent or selfish, but actually necessary in terms of you

optimizing the opportunity that you have right now to step into becoming this artist. 100%. What do you think? I think you nailed it. I think prioritizing where you can find time for yourself is gonna be key to, cause it's a long haul to become great and master of a craft like the clarinet

and you need to, you can't afford to burn out. No. And a lot of musicians do to become great and master of a craft like the clarinet and you need to, you can't afford to burn out. And a lot of musicians do, cause it's so competitive and it's sometimes the satisfaction you get of doing a good job at a retail job is more readily, it comes to you easier. You'll get the validation immediately. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Or as a leader in whatever, that's why a lot of people take certain jobs because they're elevated as leaders right away. And leadership can be fulfilling because you're helping people achieve something. She's on the grind though. It reminds me of law school. Like when you're that age, you can do it.

And you can do it for a while. You could do it, like I couldn't do that now. I would collapse. But when you're 23, you're robust, you could do it like I couldn't do that now. I would, you know, collapse, but when you're 23, you're robust, you can handle it. But I just think it's a time in your life where you have an opportunity to develop healthier life skills around these things. And you really need to protect what's most important to you.

100%. Cool. Good luck, Sierra. Good luck, thank you for the question. All right, let's go up towards the Bay Area. This person recorded their question on their own mic. Hey, Rich. This is Kevin from San Francisco Bay Area.

I'm a fan of the gospel that you're spreading, and I really appreciate your recent episode with Matthew Walker on sleep. I have a question that I think you are uniquely positioned to help answer. See, sometimes I'll do an intense workout at around noon-ish. I'll run, bike, swim, or do some at-home P90X, which all burn a lot of calories. So immediately after my workout, I'll have a high-calorie plant-based recovery smoothie, like one of the recipes in the Plant Power way. And then a little later, I'll eat some other foods and meals like a big bowl of

oatmeal and later another huge bowl of salad for dinner. And many times I'll also sneak in a large veggie smoothie. I try to focus on consuming as much leafy greens and micronutrients as possible while also trying to get in my needed macros, but also not trying to overdo my macros too much as I tend to gain weight pretty easily. However, sometimes it seems like I'm not consuming enough calories because once it gets time for bed, I'll feel pretty full, mostly because of all the greens that I've consumed. But then over time, while I'm in bed, my body will feel light, jittery, and hungry to the point that I'll need to get out of bed and go to the kitchen and eat something more. Only now that I've eaten a plant-based late night snack,

the fiber in that vegan snack starts to churn in my digestive system, including smoothies, which prevents me from further being able to fall asleep. It's kind of this catch-22 scenario. Anyway, thank you, Rich. Awesome. Story of my life, Kevin. Story of my life. Really? Yeah. Cause I immediately thought he's just not eating enough calories. Yeah, well, I think that's a huge part of it. Like he's just eating too much salad and oatmeal. You burn through that stuff.

Yeah, I think that he's under, I think he's because he was obese and he lost all this weight and he's trying to be, first of all, thank you for your question, Kevin. I love this question. Because he was obese and he lost all this weight and he's trying to be, first of all, thank you for your question, Kevin. I love this question. Because he's formerly obese and he's trying to be really diligent about his nutrition going forward

and is so cautious and afraid of putting on weight because of that past experience that he's under fueling himself because he's terrified of putting on weight. But what he's doing is he is not getting enough calories and that's creating the agitation that's leading to the sleep problem. It's an interesting thing.

I've experienced this myself. And you know, all the thing is all the science supports not eating right before bed, right? You're not supposed to eat right before you go to bed. Right. You're supposed to eat hours before. If I eat like three hours before bedtime and then I go to bed, inevitably I will either be unable to fall asleep

or I'll wake up like two or three hours later and have to go into the kitchen and eat more. Really? All the time. So that has led to an unhealthy habit of eating close to my bedtime, which isn't great because then as your body is digesting the food, when it's done with that digestive process,

you end up waking up at like three, right? I've played with this so many different ways. So I feel you, Kevin, I relate to this. I'm also, I wasn't formerly obese, I was heavier, but I'm conscious of my caloric intake. So I tend to eat light during the day and then have a larger dinner, but I've had that same experience of lying in bed,

awake, hungry, unable to sleep, all this stuff. I don't have a magic bullet for this, but two things. One is the thing we already mentioned, which is I think that you really are under fueled. And that sense of fullness isn't due to you meeting your caloric needs, it's because you're eating this super fibrous- Very bloaty stuff, right?

Bloaty stuff that gives you the sensation of being full and is great because it will prevent you from overeating. And it basically turns off that appetite mechanism. But all those leafy greens, all of that fiber, very high in the micronutrients and the phytochemicals and all those things that you want. But at the same time, if you're working out as hard as you're working out,

like you gotta put food in your system. And when you're not eating- Smoothies aren't good enough. When you're not eating meat and dairy, which tend to be incredibly calorically dense foods, this is a common thing with people who go plant-based. They're like, I'm always hungry. And it's like, well, you used to eat like burgers

and milkshakes and now you're eating salads and quinoa. Like you're gonna have to eat a lot more than you're used to eating. And because if you're eating it in a whole food way, like there is all that extra fiber. So you'll feel full, but you're eating it in a whole food way, like there is all that extra fiber, so you'll feel full, but you're actually not getting sufficient calories. And your body is like, I'm trying to repair myself.

Like the agitation, like that kind of shakiness that you get is your body trying to tell you that you need to eat more. The other thing that I think could be helpful for you is that I found, and this is purely anecdotal, but I found personally that when I eat more throughout the day, that's helpful. So with this, you know,

penchant that I have for eating light throughout the day, sometimes that will lead to this problem at night, even if I eat a big dinner. But when I'm eating, you know, when I'm not like doing an intermittent fast or whatever, and I'm eating throughout the day and I eat a decent lunch and all of that, and I can eat a decent dinner

and I'll find myself in less of a struggle to go to sleep. So larger portions eaten consistently and earlier throughout the day will I think help ameliorate that. Yeah, because what you're talking about here is working out really hard, then having a smoothie, then having a bowl of oatmeal and a salad. Like to me, like that's just not enough food.

I think that's right. Yeah, because I'll have oatmeal in the morning before even before a run or like an hour or so before a swim. He didn't talk about anything that he eats before noon. So I don't know if he's not eating before noon or he's eating a breakfast that he just didn't tell us about. Who knows, but like, you know,

I'm not telling anyone what to eat. I'm not in that business, but pasta is a very filling thing that could be good if you need carb. I know it's, I don't know how controversial it is to eat pasta. Pasta wouldn't be the first thing that I recommend. Pasta is very effective.

If you eat that right before you go to bed, you'll pass out. Cause all the blood goes to your belly to digest this food. You'll wake up at three o'clock in the morning. Don't eat pasta. So I don't know if it's, it will do the trick in terms of getting you to fall asleep. Not sure that's the best practice, but perhaps get over this fear of macros

and start eating complex carbohydrates that are satiating. You can eat potatoes, you can eat sweet potatoes, you can eat long grain rice. Like there's plenty of things you could be eating. Currys, beans and rice. Yeah, tons of beans. I eat gigantic, gigantic bowls of beans and rice.

My kids still like, we'll get plates, we go to the dinner table, they have their normal plates out and I'll go and I'll get the giant like salad bowl. And then I put my dinner in that and they laugh every time. But I just feel like I have to eat more. Eat avocados, like that's Tom Brady drinks avocados. You can eat avocados. Right, and I think there is a little bit of a block here

because of that fear of gaining weight. And maybe you need to, in letting go of that, be okay with putting on a little bit of weight as you figure this out for yourself, because what you wanna do is have the weight come off the right way so it stays off. Well, if you're constantly starving and not sleeping well, because you're afraid of putting on weight,

you're not gonna sustain this anyway. No. You're gonna end up lapsing back into some unhealthy habits. Alexi Molchanov once told me years ago, the great free diver world record holder said, it's not the number that's on the scale. It's how, it's okay to have a bigger number if you're fit. Right.

Fitness and the number on the scale are two separate things. You don't have to, they don't mean the same thing. Good point. Yeah. Final thought for Kevin is to, and he didn't talk about this at all, which I think he, which is instructive and he didn't talk about this at all, which I think he,

which is instructive that he didn't bring it up, but I'm curious about what his pre-sleep routine is. Like perhaps there's some work that you could do around setting yourself up for a good night of sleep. Like, are you having a magnesium tea at night? Are you avoiding those screens? Do you take a bath? You know, maybe take a warm bath,

like an hour before you go to bed. Do an evening meditation. Listen to, get the calm app out and listen to a sleep story. Like part of this might also be induced by anxiety. Like what part of this is more of a mental emotional thing and what part of it is actually a physiological response to his food intake?

It's unclear. And if all else fails, listen to roll on. You'll go right out. Right, get a tent, cold air in the room, get a face mask, a gravity blanket. The world is your oyster, Kevin. And David Attenborough, he puts me right to sleep. There you go.

Yeah, there's certain people, right? Nature sounds, whatever does it for you. Cool. But hey, thanks for the question. I hope that whatever does it for you. Cool. But hey, thanks for the question. I hope that was helpful. Thank you, Kevin. Yeah, and thanks for the great recording. That's right, his own mic.

Should we require that everybody have their own mic now? No, this makes my job a lot harder. Please don't. All right, the last one is a fun one from a friend in Columbus from the 614. Hey, Rich and Adam. This is Ben calling from Columbus, Ohio. I recently packed up my things, left my job, and decided to go on a road trip out west for four months.

I got two questions for you guys. One, what book would you bring on a road trip for yourself? And secondly, Adam, I know you're looking for running questions. So I've been a road runner my whole life and I'm excited to hit the trail. What tips do you have for me to transition from pavement to trail running? Thanks. Adam, what do you think the odds are that Ben's four month trip turns into a one year trip? High.

I think it's high. Yeah. Yeah. I hope so. I think it's high. Yeah. I hope so. I hope that for him. Extend it. He's been seen jealous. Or has been mid career.

I can't tell. I can't tell. He didn't leave his age, right? Yeah. Well, he had a job. So he's not like just graduating from college. I feel like it's the first job out of college though. I think so.

I pin him at, you know, maybe 24, 25. Mid 20s? Yeah. I hope we're not way off on that. Yeah. I suspect mid 20s, but thanks for the question, Ben. I am jealous. That sounds like such a cool opportunity to just hit the road four months.

The world is your oyster. Yes, me too. You know what I mean? Quit job, pack car. When life was simple, Adam. When life was simple. Hey. You know. We had our run.

I know, we did, right? Yes. I'm happy where I'm at. I'm good. It's okay. Sorry, Ben. We're back to ourselves. Books, books.

You can't go on a four month road trip, this lighting out on the frontier in a journey of self-discovery. Head West. Without reading On the Road by Jack Kerouac. Are you even allowed to go on a four month road trip? Without On the Road? As a young man, without having read On The Road?

You know, I mean, On The Road is seminal book for me. I've probably read it 10 times. I didn't include that on my list. It's such a Gen X. You had first. It's a Gen X boomer referral though, is it not? It is, it might be, it may. Has that book been canceled?

Can we check the cancellation file? I don't know. I think it's okay still. Who's Can we check the cancellation file? I think it's okay still. Who's in charge of the cancellation vault? I think that one's all right. I think it is too. So I would recommend that, but you, sorry, I was like, you were about to say something else. No, I think it's a great question.

I think, you know, the two parter go for it. You have a few books down here. Right, well, I'm just thinking, okay, Ben, what's going on in Ben's life that he decided to quit his job, pack everything up and like head out on the road? Well, obviously it feels like an inflection point where he wants to go inward a little bit

and figure out what the next thing is, or maybe connect a little bit more deeply with who he is. And so what are the books that you would recommend somebody who's playing around with that on the road because you're on the road. Right. Why not a man's search for meaning by Victor Frankl tops everybody's list.

Who's grappling with these ideas I think. And one of my favorites also autobiography of a Yogi by Paramahansa Yogananda. I wanted to like that one. I couldn't. Couldn't get behind it. I couldn't get through it. Too magical, too crazy.

I think my problem with it was every chapter ended well. Yeah. Because his life was, he was magnificent human being. I'm very a big fan of Paramahansa Yogananda. I just didn't get through the entire autobiography. I think it's just a cool book to expand your sense of possibility and develop some appreciation for the mystical.

So you wanna hear a Parmanansa Yogananda story? I do. Before we get into finish this question. So during, I think it was during the LA Yoga days, when we first started LA Yoga Magazine, I set up a meeting with the head of the Self-Realization Fellowship at the time. I think it was number, maybe it was number two.

And their headquarters are in Mount Washington in Los Angeles, which was the original house, the original estate before any of the others. That's where he set Paramahansa Yogananda to set up shop. And we were supposed to have our meeting in the boardroom, which has like all these really cool artifacts and stuff. And I was really excited to sit there and have this conversation, but we got booted.

And I was a little disappointed, but he goes, let's sit by the fireplace. And the guy wasn't particularly warm or anything or like memorable, but he said, a lot of people say after, you know, he used to spend every evening down here having tea by the fire place every evening and had whoever guests came through,

that's where he'd spend his time. And they say, you know, people can feel his presence sometimes. And at the time I wasn't particularly a huge Pramananta Yogananda guy, cause he was merging, you was merging his worldview with Jesus and trying to make yoga more palatable by using Christianity as some sort of a Trojan horse, say,

or not even a Trojan, that's a disrespectful way of putting it, but to show how they fit together. And so I was like pretty new to that world, had my interview with him. Like I said, he was not super impressed with me. I didn't really like him that much. But then we finished the interview fine.

And I get up and walking out the door and I'm like physically high. Like I'm floating out of my body kind of high. Like I'm just like lightheaded, like all my energy, exact flow state kind of stuff. Like seriously, like time slowed down. I felt it a few times in my life, but this was very profound.

Wow. And no drugs, no nothing. You know, like it felt like the coming on of a psychedelic trip without taking any drugs. That's what it felt like. So what do you make of that? Yogananda. Yeah.

Yeah, no question. That's a trip. Isn't that cool? That is a trip. So for people that don't know, Paramahansa Yogananda was many things, but he was one of the initial people to come from India to the United States

and was part of the movement of introducing yoga and meditation and all these things that have become so integrated into our culture at a time when these were crazy brand new ideas. Yeah, and then like the 1920s he was coming here. And he would sit in these salons in Manhattan and have these get togethers that are reminiscent of that movie, the master.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what comes to mind, like what that vibe must've been like, but just a beautiful, magnificent consciousness. There's that headquarters on Mount Washington, but there's also the self-realization retreat center in Pacific Palisades where you can, the grounds are open and there's this pond

and you can go meditate there. And also the temple in Encinitas, right on the beach, which is the surf spot, right off of it is called Swami's. And I think a lot of people don't know that that's why it's called Swami's. I agree. Because he is the Swami.

So if you don't read the book, Ben, make sure you stop by one of his sites. You should read the book and then go visit one of those sites. Exactly, read the book. Don't worry about me. I'm the guy that the Self-Realization Fellowship didn't even like.

But you're an unlikely person to have that kind of, you know, experience and then admit to it. You know what I mean? Like you're, you have a practical grounded, you know, perspective on this thing. So that's very cool. My Kerouac of choice is the Dharma Bums. I, On The Road was very important to me

because it gives permission to be expansive. It gives permission to reach for some expansive sense of self and joy in the moment and not be someone who's about collecting stuff and putting it in their stuff house. And that's what you need to do. Like I still am guided by that to some degree. The Dharma Bums though, it comes after,

on the road has, it is on the roads in the can. Everyone loves it as publishers. It's not out yet. And he goes on one last road trip before it becomes this massive hit. He's written it, it's all done. And this is the next thing that he does. And he does another cross country trip

and he meets up with his buddies in the Bay area and Oregon. And he ends up as a lookout in a fire tower in Washington state. And there's a lot more meditation and mindfulness. So this is where the beats start to get credit for bringing in Eastern practices and mindfulness into their and meditation into their work, which became mainstreamed.

And I love Dharma Bums. Island of the Blue Dolphins by Scott O'Dell is a classic for around here. It's actually about a little Chumash girl who is kind of moored and left behind with her little brother on one of the Channel Islands here. And it's what happens to her as she fends for herself for over a decade, I believe it is, or maybe it's- My daughter read that book in school. Yeah, it's now it's what happens to her as she fends for herself for over a decade, I believe it is.

Or maybe it's- My daughter read that book in school. Yeah, it's now it's taught in school, but I never read it until later. I read it in maybe one big gulp, like sitting down in the sun. It's like an adventure book. So like, but it's so beautiful.

And it talks about, you know, the Channel Islands here. Yeah, and how she survived. Incredible. Like, I don't even wanna spoil anything. It's sad at first, but it ends up being quite incredible. And then Evening in Paradise by Lucia Berlin, who's an overlooked short story author. I think I might've referenced her

with the Rachel Kushner stuff, but she was like, she didn't have any hits. She was like revered by her peers, considered in like the 60s, 70s, maybe 70s and 80s, considered one of these great, the female Raymond Carver, short story writer, but just couldn't get any traction commercially and had to do odd jobs basically her whole life

until she had a collection called "'The Confessions of a Cleaning Woman' came out very late career when she was like suffering health problems from, I think alcoholism was involved in that. And she ends up having a late career bestseller and is a faculty at the University of Colorado. But before that she was a cleaning woman.

She was X, she was Y. She lived this very outsized, huge life. And Evening in Paradise is a second collection. I think it came out posthumously, but to me is I enjoyed that one better than the Confessions of a Clean Woman. Yeah, I haven't read that. And that includes like, she grew up a diplomat's daughter

in Chile, she has this crazy life, but it's semi autobiographical stuff, it is fiction. So you just don't really know where the line is, but it's a lot of fun. You see, we did there. No, what did I do? Just when everybody thought that this was a swim around conversation, you reminded everybody

that this is truly a literary podcast. But now back to running. Back to running. Rich, tell them how to go from road to trail. What does your podcast do? No, it's the question again. What does your podcast do? I know, what does, no, it's the question again. I know. What does your podcast do?

I know, what does it do? A little bit of everything, I suppose. Road to trail, don't overthink it. It doesn't have to be that different. I mean, I would say as Ricky Gates says, fun over fast. When you're on the road, you have this tendency because it's a straight line or what have you to be really wed to the Garmin, all the metrics,

what's your pace, what's your cadence, what's your heart rate. You can get really dialed in on that because it is, you're limiting your variables. But once you get on a trail, all that goes out the window. So I would encourage you. I mean, I don't know what your relationship is to road running.

So maybe you're already cool with letting go of all that. For some, it's a challenge to just, you know, be present for the experience, let go of pace, let go of cadence and just enjoy yourself and allow your mind to wander and your senses to experience the environment. It's not that different, but you know, it does, it depends on the trail of course, like, is it technical?

Is it flat? Is it flat? Is it super steep? You will, in general, have to be a little bit more hypervigilant about your environments. Like, are there crazy wild animals around here? You have to be vigilant about your foot placement. Are there roots and rocks that you can trip on? One thing that was helpful to me

when I was trying to get used to running on trails is this idea of letting the trail work for you. Like if you're running downhill on a road, it's one thing, but on a trail, you can kind of bound from rock to rock and kind of be more in like surfing, like riding a wave as opposed to forcing yourself into a certain kind of pace, like gliding the descents, learning how to be light on your feet and then delicate on the ascent

until you develop some kind of confidence. And then I would just say, it's more important that you take safety precautions because especially if you're going on a road trip, you're in the middle of nowhere, you wanna go on this trail, nobody knows where you are. Who knows if any people are out there, you get bit by a rattlesnake

or you just fall down and twist your ankle and you can't run, you know, you gotta make sure that you have a phone with you, that there is cell service. There are things like on Strava, you can do like, you can broadcast live or you can let certain people know where you are so that there's some accountability

if something happens to you. Make sure that you have a hydration pack and you know and are taking care of all that kind of stuff. And then one final little piece of practical advice is to get the AllTrails app, which is a great app. And it shows you where all the trails are wherever you're traveling. So you can, it makes that discovery process a little bit easier.

Beautiful. Cool. Ben, thanks for a fun question. Are we done? Any more books you wanna tell us about? No, I kept the books down to four this time. Is that okay? It was good though. No, you're in, you know, speaking of Dharma bombs,

you are in your Dharma when you're discussing literature. It's beautiful to watch. It's very kind of you to say that, but reality I'm not an in crowd literary person by any means. It's not about that. No, but I do love it. How's the novel coming? It's coming, man.

We're almost done with a third pass and then there'll be a fourth pass and we'll keep going. But the one thing about books that I love is like, I was reading this at the same time I was reading, what's the mini series? It was, God, why am I spacing on it? The series with Ethan Hawke. Oh yeah, I know what you're talking about.

It has a crazy name. I know exactly what you're saying. Good Lord Bird. Good Lord Bird. Sorry about that. Good Lord Bird. Based on an amazing book. Yes, and I was reading that at the same time I was reading this.

And then I also got this new translation of the Dao De Ching. And I was thinking of like, what other mode do we have where you could be in, you know, pre-Civil War time, early 20th century Hawaii and you know, whatever, like BC, China, only books. Nothing else can even come close to it. Well, virtual reality is gonna catch up to that. Don't worry about the books.

Yes, that's true. Right. VR is next. Yeah. Just some tweak on the simulation. Time travel. That's right. Would you do it like if someone came in here right now with a time travel portal and said,

we don't know when we can get you back. We don't know how long it will take. And you don't know what, do you know what era you're going into? You get to choose the era. I think we have a romantic attachment with certain periods of time thinking that they were better than they were.

That was never more evident than watching the Nick. And you just see like, I'm so glad that I didn't live in 1900. It just looked awful. Oh yeah. Well, there'd be plumbing issues. Yeah, everybody stank. Everybody was dying of disease everywhere.

It was like, if you had a medical problem, good luck. Like it was, but you think like, oh, how cool would it be to live in Manhattan in 1900 or 1920 or one of these times, the roaring twenties and all of that. But I think if you spent a week there when you've lived a life of iPads and Netflix, you'd lose your mind.

So basically like if they said it could take a year to get you back. Would I go back? But you can choose where and when would you do it? Probably, because what an extraordinary experience. Exactly, and where would you go? Maybe Paris in the 1920s.

Nice. I don't know, maybe that's not thinking broadly or creatively enough. Sounds pretty cool to me. Where would you go? That's a good question. I'm asking the questions around here, Rich. It's like on your literary podcast. All right, listen, we've been going for well over two hours.

We're ending this thing. We can talk about time travel and the simulation next time. VR. Let's do it. What's better, VR or books? R, R is better. Debate. R is always better than VR.

All right, man, you feel good? I do. I feel good, man. I'm over my languishing, I think. Thank you for helping me. Did we de-languish you? I've been de-languished. Fantastic. Yes.

Wait till you try on this mask. I can't, that's never gonna happen, never. Cut, smash cut to me on Instagram wearing that mask, right? Yes. All right, see you in two weeks. Maybe we might have to postpone because of the, you're gonna go see the Iron Cowboy. So we'll, yeah, we might have to rearrange that.

Maybe not in two weeks, we'll figure it out. In the meantime, follow Adam on the internets, at Adam Skolnick. Leave us a message with your question, 424-235-4626. Check out the show notes on the episode page at richroll.com for links to everything we talked about today. We'll also put links up in the description below

if you're watching this on YouTube. Speaking of YouTube, subscribe to our channel on YouTube, subscribe to our clips channel, and you can find us on Apple, Spotify, all the places. If you wanna be super generous, throw a few stars at us, say a few nice things. I say that to friends and enemies alike. Yes.

What else? I think that's it. Shout out Brogan Graham. Shout out to Brogan. We worked through, we're in a good place, audience. All of us, right? Good, how's your short film practice going? I sent a couple, I sent a couple.

We're on a group chat. I sent a couple from the mountains. But are you doing it with other people? No, I have not expanded it out. Yeah, that's the thing. It's amazing to me how many of these, Brogan, how's it going? He's a full-time production studio, I have not expanded it out. Yeah, that's the thing. It's amazing to me how many of these, Brogan has got. He's a full-time production studio, I know. And then he edits them and creates movies out of,

you know, like his library of- He's got like, you know what Brogan, you have a very, a very handsome creative group of people that you're doing these with. Yeah. Thank you for including us. Yeah, thank you. We love you're doing these with. Yeah. Thank you for including us. Yeah, thank you. We love you Brogan.

Yeah. Peace. Plants. I'm not ready to end it yet. Oh. I gotta thank everybody who helped on the show today. Do it. Let's thank Jason Camiolo sitting right behind me,

audio engineer, production, show notes, interstitial music. Jason has a tendency to wake up at three in the morning and just to make sure that the podcast goes live. Wow. He goes overboard. Blake Curtis, who creates the video version of the podcast has a penchant for coming in Sunday afternoons to make sure that the video is dialed up.

These guys work really hard. Thank you to both of them. I could not do what I do without their help. Jessica Miranda for graphics. We got, who do we have in today? Grayson. Who do we have? We have Grayson Wilder over here shooting portraits. New on the team.

Thank you, Grayson. Georgia Whaley for copywriting, DK for advertiser relationships, theme music by Tyler Trapper and Harry. We'll see you back here when we see you. We will be back here with another cool episode in a couple of days. Until then, namaste, Paramahansa Yogananda.

Namaste. Peace. Plants. Koyote. Thank you.