The Rich Roll Podcast - Ryan Holiday: Stillness Is The Path To Everything We Want In Life

Episode Date: September 30, 2019

He's best known for popularizing Stoicism — an ancient philosophical yet highly practical operating system he pioneered to mainstream, modern adoption. In his latest turn, Ryan Holiday expands his lens East. In pursuit of shared wisdom across ancient Buddhist, Muslim, Hindu, Hebrew, Greek, Christian and Epicurean traditions, he discovered one essential truth — that inner peace is essential to a life of purpose, meaning and fulfillment. Ryan calls it stillness — to be steady while the world spins around you. A crucial characteristic of all great leaders, thinkers, artists, athletes and visionaries, it's a practice to transcend the stress of everyday life. An antidote to the distractions of our fast-paced world. And the ultimate path to meaning, contentment, and excellence in a world that needs more of it than ever. For those unfamiliar, Ryan is an autodidact who dropped out of college at 19, maturing into one of the most important thinkers of his generation. Now 32, he is a media strategist, prolific writer and public speaker with six perennial bestselling books to his name, including Ego Is The Enemy,The Obstacle Is The Way, and Conspiracy.  Making the digestible case for why slowing down is the secret weapon for charging ahead, Ryan's latest release — aptly titled Stillness Is The Key (hitting bookstores everywhere this week) — is your next must read and read again primer on living your best life. Returning for this third appearance on the podcast (check out RRP #168 and #239), today we explore the essential elements of stillness — and its limitless applications for profound personal self-improvement. Want to avoid distractions? Develop greater insight? Unlock creativity? Improve your decision making? Better your parenting skills? Enhance athletic performance? The incredible power and practicality of cultivating placidity in our increasingly turbulent, tumultuous, reactive, distraction monopolized lives simply cannot be overstated. Stillness is the key. You can watch it all go down on YouTube.  I have great fondness for this human. I absolutely love this exchange. And sincerely hope you do as well. Peace + Plants, Rich

What I try to do in the books is apply ancient wisdom to life in a practical way. And I think the idea of stillness, that concept of stillness, it struck me as like when you remove ego, stillness emerges. You need stillness to overcome these kinds of obstacles. So it's sort of the glue that went unsaid in the other books. And I just kept coming back to this idea. And when you look at really great people, whether they're athletes or generals, or just like a wise person that you met, or your grandfather, what they all seem to have is that operating on a different plane.

And what's interesting is that basically, and this is what inspired the book, is that like, interesting is that basically, and this is what inspired the book, is that like, basically, any and all of the ancient schools talk about that idea, that concept of stillness in their own way as the sort of the end goal of what we're doing. That's Ryan Holiday, this week on the Rich Roll Podcast. The Rich Roll Podcast. How goes it, people? Rich Roll here, your host. This is my podcast.

Welcome. Okay, time to get serious because today's guest is a very serious man. You know him, you love him. His name is Ryan Holiday. And today he returns to the podcast for his third appearance, check out episodes 168 and 239 if you miss them the first time around, to discuss his brand spanking new book, the latest in this prolific, multiple New York Times bestselling, young man's quickly growing canon of important work. It's called Stillness is the Key. It's your next must read and read again.

And the focus of today's conversation. For those very few unfamiliar, Ryan is an autodidact who dropped out of college at 19 and now at all of 32, I think, is a media strategist, an author, a public speaker, and I think it's fair to say one of the most prolific writers and important thinkers of his generation. Ryan is the author of now six, I think, perennial bestselling books. Among them, Ego is the Enemy, The Obstacle is the Way, Perennial Seller, and Conspiracy. Ryan began his already storied career as an apprentice under Robert Greene, the author of The 48 Laws of Power.

Went on to work with other acclaimed authors like Tim Ferriss and served as the director of marketing for American Apparel, a job that he held at the ripe age of 22. And when he's not writing books or opinion pieces for The Observer or Thought Catalog, Ryan oversees Brass Check, a consultancy firm that advises New York Times bestselling authors like James Altucher, Arianna Huffington, and Tony Robbins, and corporate clients that include Google, CreativeLive, Complex, and Refinery29. I have a great fondness for this human and a few more things I want to say about him before a conversation I think will profoundly impact how you think and feel about mindfulness.

about mindfulness. began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care, especially because unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. It's a real problem. A problem I'm now happy and proud to share has been solved by the people at recovery.com who created an online support portal designed to guide, to support, and empower you to find the ideal level of care tailored to your personal needs.

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It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care. Especially because, unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. It's a real problem. It's a real problem, a problem I'm now happy and proud to share has been solved by the people at recovery.com who created an online support portal designed to guide, to support, and empower you to find the ideal level of care providers to cover the full spectrum of behavioral health disorders, including substance use disorders, depression, anxiety, eating disorders, gambling addictions, and more. Navigating their site is simple. Search by insurance coverage, location,

treatment type, you name it. Plus, you can read reviews from former patients to help you decide. Whether you're a busy exec, a parent of a struggling teen, or battling addiction yourself, I feel you. I empathize with you. I really do. And they have treatment options for you. Life in recovery is wonderful, and recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey.

When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. Okay, Ryan. So Ryan is perhaps best known for his affinity for and his popularization of the Stoics, translating and contextualizing this treasure trove of ancient wisdom and philosophy, and then rendering it highly practical and practicable for a modern audience.

And along the way, he's won fans from all kinds of people, the next generation of professional athletes and coaches and tech CEOs and even high-ranking politicians. But in this latest book, Stillness is the Key, Ryan begins to stretch beyond the perimeter of stoicism and for the first time, I believe, begins to weave in an Eastern perspective. Insights derived primarily from Buddhism to make a digestible case for why,

as he puts it, slowing down is the secret weapon for charging ahead. How does one avoid distraction? Stillness. How does one develop great insight? Stillness. How does one develop great insight? Stillness. How does one throw a great pitch, write a great book, parent a healthy child? Stillness, stillness, stillness. So that's what this is about, the incredible power and practicality of placidity in our increasingly turbulent, tumultuous, reactive, distraction-monopolized lives. Here's Ryan. Thanks for coming out.

No, thanks for having me. I feel like we've done four or five podcasts, and then I realize you've only been on the show once. Is it once? I thought it was twice. I think it was twice. No, you're right. Yeah, I think it has been twice but it does feel like i've i don't know we've talked a lot off the microphone so which is like the opposite i have with most people i feel like i only get to see them during podcasts and it's the only time we talk for like three hours in a

row your entire relationship with somebody is based on recording podcasts which is increasingly my relationship with my wife you know recording podcasts, which is increasingly my relationship with my wife. Well, that's what I liked about the one that you did with your dad. I was like, I've never had that conversation with my dad because you never would do it. You never do it. It's something that we probably think a lot about, like, oh, when's that day going to come and I'm going to sit down, we're going to have a scotch and talk about your life. And that moment never really arises. And it had occurred to me that I wanted to do that. And I wanted, there's something about putting a microphone in front of somebody that creates

a formality and a structure that kind of allows that to transpire because it forces the person to actually think about what they're going to say, with the idea that I would probably never share it. But then when he wrote the book, then it was like, okay, we can do this. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And I appreciate all the support and the help that you've lent to him in his book. It's super meaningful. Oh, no.

I mean, I told you I would have done it anyway, because I thought it was a really good book, and I thought it was important. Yeah. It's funny you told me the story of meeting my dad when he showed up at one of your book signing things and he just like rolled right up to you right before you were supposed to speak, right? I don't know if it was right before or right after,

but it was, I remember we texted about it, you and I. I recognize some of my dad and your dad. And yeah, it was funny. Yeah. Well, the occasion of this podcast is your new book, which we're going to get into in a minute, which I loved. I think it's fantastic. Thank you. This is like right in my wheelhouse.

Like, I just love it. But before we get into that, like, I wanted to spend at least a couple minutes talking about this other part of what you do. I mean, you're in LA because you were down speaking with the Rams, right? I was. And this is something that you've been doing more and more of. It seems like every week you're at another major league sports franchise. Well, this is an unusual set of two weeks. But yes, last week I was with the Browns and I got to speak to the team and I spent a couple of days with them.

That was very cool. I was most excited. They let me swim in the team lap pool. I saw that, yeah. Wow. And so it's at field level. So you can watch. You're basically looking at the ankles of the players going through walkthroughs in practice as you're swimming.

Right. looking at the ankles of the players going through walkthroughs in practice as you're swimming. Right. And they only let me use the pool when the players were practicing because then they wouldn't be there. So that was really cool. And then I happened to know the GM of the Rams, and he invited me out. And so I spoke to the coaches yesterday and today. And what's that like? Do you talk to the players as well? Or is it mainly the Rams?

For the Rams, I didn't. I've spoken to different teams like it before. It's a very weird audience. The weirdest audience was in March. I spoke at the NFL owners meeting, which was probably the most unusual audience that I'll ever speak to. I mean, aside from maybe addressing the UN,

when would you have... This aggregation of billionaires? Yeah, I mean, so it's a minimum of 32 billionaires, and then it was all the head coaches and all of the team presidents and all the GMs. And so it's just a surreal audience. I mean, it's humbling to be there, but then you're just like,

I think what strikes me is like, I'm talking to these people about ancient philosophy. This is like, I think that's so cool. And it's also so absurd at the same time. Well, I mean, certainly when you sat down to, you know, write these books, this series of books, you could not have predicted or imagined that it would have been embraced in this, you know, sort of subculture to the extent that it has.

I mean, it would have been delusional is the only word, but it does make sense. There's a bunch of Stokes who were athletes. I think what I try to do in the books is apply ancient wisdom to life in a practical way. And I think I would like to think I'm not just like, hey, here's how you get through the day, but I want to say like, hey, what are the really smart people throughout history figured out about being elite at whatever you do, whether that's being elite as a human being or a parent

or an athlete or a leader or whatever. But it's just really cool. I like talking to all different audiences, but it's certainly much more interesting to address a sports team that you've watched on television that is sort of bumping up against the limits of human performance than it is to talk to an insurance company. Not that I don't like talking to the insurance company, than it is to talk to an insurance company.

Not that I don't like talking to the insurance company, but there's just, there's a purity to sports that I'm interested in because like when you, I don't know, just all the cliches that if a normal person said, you'd be like, that's lame. An athlete can say in a locker room after a game and it has this significant. Sounds inspirational, yeah. And it is, like they really mean it. They're not like bullshitting. that's lame. An athlete can say in a locker room after a game and it has this significant, but it is like, they really mean it. They're not like bullshitting, you know, like they really are,

they really do speak in these sort of like cliches and, and epigrams because it's, and I talk a little bit about this in the book, but you know, Yogi Berra had that line, like it's impossible to think and hit at the same time. So, at sports, because your body's doing most of the work, you have to simplify the mental. It's like you have to simmer the sauce down to its absolute essence. And so, it's just so simple and straightforward, and there's no irony or bullshit or posturing in sports. It's just there. Well, I think there's a difference between a group of executives who all want to perform, but fundamentally it's a job, right? And that's different from an athlete that it's their job as well. But the, the level of receptivity to finding that extra edge to game performance, I think is probably much more heightened in that community.

Yeah. And, you know, hearing you say that, I would say the only other group where you're like, these are all the best people in the world at what they do, and they're on the same team, would be like the military. Like there would never be, there's no audience, there's no like, hey, these are the 30 best writers in the world. And somehow they're on the same team, sitting in the same room, and you can address them. Do you know what I mean? Because everything else is like, one on one combat, like the rest of the world. Like, my books have spread through sports, because like, like a guy at the at the thing I talked to today, it was telling me he'd read the book. And I said, how did you hear about it?

And he told him, this is not like a high-level guy. This is just a guy. He's like, oh, the GM of this other NFL team told me I should read it. Right. The CEO of Google does not recommend books to anyone, let alone the people at rival companies. Uh-huh. like the people at rival companies. And so there's just a, it's just a unique thing where you're like, all these people are like

on the same team trying to get better together. There's just a coolness that I don't, there's no other audience where you get to do that. So as somebody who wrote a book called Ego is the Enemy, I mean, that's gotta be a challenge to keep your ego in check when somebody says something like that to you. Yeah.

You know, cause that's heavy, man. i mean i what i what i try to remind myself is is uh none of these people care like they're like you're just like you're talking to the players and they're just like if he gives me something i can use i'll use him and then i'll immediately forget who he is. Like next week, somebody else is coming in. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And, and it's also good to just remind yourself of like success in our field is

like the rookie minimum contract in the NFL. Do you know what I like? Like, you're just like, Oh, this is, it's humbling just to be, you're like,

I'm in your world, but I'm not of your world. Right. So I, that's what I try to focus on. What is the most surreal experience that you've had kind of navigating that terrain that's a good question i mean it it's like you'll get recognized like everyone's gonna get recognized like in and it's like i'm this supposed to be going the other direction you know what i mean like uh that's that Like, that's weird.

I don't know. I think the weirdest thing about the sports stuff is every once in a while, I'll just get like an email from a head coach or a GM or something. And you're just like, even at that level, these are just normal people reading books and then shooting a note to the author because they like them. Like like it's still pretty normal i don't that's that that's the surreal experience you just wake up and you're like what is that that from who i think that is from like and i just wanted to like chat you know um yeah i don't know it's cool well in addition to to athletes and

sports franchises, I mean, your writing has been embraced by Silicon Valley, like these other subcultures that are really steeped in that fine edge of performance. And generally just how to live a more meaningful life and do it in a grounded, strategic, and fundamentally rewarding way. I hope so.

Yeah. I hope so. So stillness is the evolution of this process. Yes. And I say evolution very mindfully. Like I think it really is, in certain ways it's synthesis of your other books, and it's also a very natural next chapter. And certainly your most spiritual book.

Yes. So I'm interested in how you arrived at the decision to tackle this subject matter and why this became your next book. Yeah. I mean, I think stillness, the idea of stillness, I'm not referring to the book, but the idea of that concept of stillness, it struck me as like when you remove ego, stillness, the idea of stillness, not like I'm not referring to the book, but the idea of that, that concept of stillness, it struck me as like, when you remove ego, stillness emerges, you need stillness to overcome these kinds of obstacles. So it was sort of, it's sort of the glue that went unsaid in the other books. And, and so I was, I just kept coming back to this idea. And when you look at really great people, whether they're athletes or generals

or just like a wise person that you met or you're a grandfather, what they all seem to have is that I just am, because I'm not a still person. I'm like a high energy person. You probably hear it through the microphone. Like I move my arms a lot. I'm like that kind of person.

So when I meet someone, you're just like, whoa, you're just like operating on a different plane yeah that like unflappable calm you know groundedness it almost seems archaic because it is so rare that you now meet somebody of that kind of stature yes and what's interesting is that basically, and this is what inspired the book, is that like basically any and all of the ancient schools have their, or talk about that idea in their own way as the sort of like the end goal of what we're doing. Yeah, it's a consistent thread that you'll find in every philosophy and every religion fundamentally, which is something that you explore. Like Stoicism and Epicureanism are supposed to be opposite philosophies. And yet like Stoics talk about apatheia and the Epicureans talk about ataraxia. Yeah, I wrote down all those words.

And I can only pronounce a few of them myself. Apatheia, ashtava hishtavut yes samatvan i just went through all of them to record the audio book but i was just in that those two it's like wait they have these are opposite philosophies they have the same idea in basically very similar words you're just like whoa how does that and then you realize oh that's just what we're all working towards everybody is trying everyone wants to be calmer and more in control and less like heart beating out of their chest at the whim of their emotions or insecurities and and and that we need it not only at like the personal level but also we know that's where our best professional work comes from.

And so I was just fascinated with that. And it's also something I have no natural inclination towards. So I also try to write for what I'm reaching towards. I wasn't writing Ego is the Enemy because I don't have an ego. It's the opposite of that. And again, you make this conscious decision to not really inject your own personal narrative into the narrative of the book.

I mean, you have the epilogue at the end where you tell a little story, but other than that, you really remove yourself from it. Yeah, my regret, my editor disagrees, but my regret on ego is that I'm even in that book. I would rather not be in it. You don't want to be in it at all. Yeah, I don't on ego is that it'd be like, that I, that I'm even in that book. I would rather not be in it. Yeah, I don't want to be in there at all. What is that?

I don't know. I don't know. I think there's a certain timelessness that comes with removing, like it becomes a text that will withstand the test of time, perhaps a little bit better if you take your own. That's what I think. I think it helped the book in the short term. And then every year that goes by, it feels a little weirder, even because like, that's not where I am. Like it, it feels like it dates it to where I was when I was writing it,

which I get. And I've heard wonderful things from people who appreciate that, but I don't know. I just, I'm trying, I, the book to me, the,

I did write the books, but I almost could read them and enjoy them because I feel like what I'm doing is channeling and explaining other people and other people's ideas primarily, and I'm just arranging them. And they're all things that are part and parcel of what it means to be a human struggling. So no matter how far down you are this path or where you are in your evolution, we all stumble. And it's always going to be relevant to be able to go back to something that you're struggling and find a passage in one of your books that's going to be apropos. Yeah. And that was another thing. You asked me how do you prevent this stuff

from going to your head. I've realized, too, like, everyone's smile, like, actually, this happened when I was at Cleveland. Like, one of the coaches showed me his copy of Obstacle, or no, Vigo, and it was literally like 100% underlined. Like, he'd gone through it multiple times, 100% underlined, almost every page, you know, folded. And there's a moment where I go,

wow, I can't believe I did that. And I was like, because I read books and I do that to books. And here's someone doing it back to me. And then I realized that's actually the same fact. This book is an accumulation of all the things that I underlined in other books. So, of course, it's filled with underlines. It's not like he's underlining these brilliant original sentences for me. He's underlining the quote that I had underlined in another book and then built my

book around. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, I understand that. I mean, your role, you're very clear in your writing and it makes these ideas, which are difficult to grapple with, very digestible, but you're almost beyond the actual prose. You're curating a way for people to emotionally connect with these truths by choosing which stories best illustrate them and trying to find stories that also will withstand the test of time. Yeah, and I think some people think like, like I, I was actually a note I get from my editor sometimes where she's like, you know, people don't know who this is. And I'm like, what do you mean? Like, I like, I'm referring to them by their first name or something because

like, I'm so familiar with that work. I just like assume like everyone's heard this story like 30 times. Yeah. Well, this goes back to my theory. I don't know if I've actually told you this, my theory, my Ryan Holiday theory is that you were born out of time. Yes. You should have been born... You're a guy who should have been storming the beaches at Normandy. Well, I'm glad that that didn't happen. I'm glad I didn't have to. But you have the sensibility of the great generation. You know what I mean? You're very interested in history and you're fascinated by things

that like my grandfather was, that are increasingly rare for somebody of your age, which makes you like kind of pleasantly anachronistic. Yeah, sure. Do you know Jordan Harbinger? Yes. Sorry, I'm gonna pull, I know I'm delaying, but so he-

It's all right. No, this is like how you, this is also how you get cut down to size, which is always good. So I was telling him about the book or something and he, he, this is what he said. Let me find it. It was so good. He said, I was like, Hey, do you want me to send you the new book? And he's like, Oh, I think I heard about it. He's like, is that the book that includes famous historical personalities and how they

applied Stoke principles to hard times or something like that? And I was like, and he was like being nice, but I was like, oh, like, was that just like a super sick burn of like summarizing like my entire career? Because that's like all my books. You just described, is that the one where you tell stories about famous people filled with lots of quotes from other famous people? And I was like, yeah, basically, that's what I do.

But in this book, going back to the evolution, you can't tackle stillness without dipping your toe in Eastern philosophy, right? So this is like your first venture in that direction. That was much all new for me. Yeah. And in the Venn diagram, there's a lot of overlap in how these ideas are synergistic. But what I found interesting is that most books that would tackle this subject matter, they're going to fall into two categories. They're either going to be new age books, books about how to meditate or about mindfulness from that kind of perspective, or they're gonna be very science oriented.

Like the neurology, you know, the neurology, what's like steeped in all the studies that prove that you should be meditating and all of that. And you really stayed clear of both of those worlds. And I'm wondering whether you felt compelled at times to, you know, bring in like what, you know, Matthew Walker has to say about sleep to, you know, bring in like what, you know, Matthew Walker has to say about sleep or, you know, what these, you know, studies are showing about what happens in our

brains when we can be still. Totally. It was a weird thing. So I, like you have Dan Harris's book, Meditation for Fidgety Skeptics, and I love him. I think he's great. But like, even that, it's like, even though you're saying it's for fidgety skeptics, it's for people like you or me, I think most people are like, nope. You know what I mean? I don't even know, does the word meditation even appear once in this book?

It appears in passing, but on purpose, I never say you should meditate. One, because I don't, I just like can't do it. But I've- You'd rather tell a story about Churchill and how he likes to go on long walks. Yes. But my point is, I think people go... People are like, I hear that Eastern stuff is really great.

But every time I hear about it, they're telling me to meditate. And I can't meditate. I don't meditate. This is what I think most people think. So that's off the table for me. And I think what I tried to do in the book is go, there's a whole bunch of really great stuff from the Eastern people that you can benefit for well before you have to like just sit quietly with your own thoughts or no thoughts. And the other thing is like, I think, the truth is we live in the West. And so I think one

of the reasons that the Eastern stuff doesn't work for people is that it seems like it's for a totally different world. And so what I wanted to do is go, how can I apply the Eastern insights in a Western, like, format? So it's like we learn by stories. We tend to learn by personality. Like, I think one of the reasons that Eastern stuff is intimidating to people and to me, too, is, like, I've never heard of any of these names. So I don't know. Like, when someone hears Marcus Aurelius, they're like, oh, that's that cool guy from the movie Gladiator. Like, he was the emperor.

I want to be king. You know, like, and then you hear a thing about Confucius and you're like, what was that? It was like some wandering guy, like in a robe. Should I listen to him? And so I wanted to take the insights, but then, which is what I did with stoicism in the first two books. So I want to take these ideas and then illustrate them with stories of people that most

people want to be like. So you get the essence of the lesson rather than going like, oh, I'm just supposed to, I'm supposed to abandon the idea of having a self. I'm supposed to get rid of all my possessions because some name I can't pronounce, you know, said it was a good idea. And then like people who wear yoga pants talk about it a lot. You know, I get it. No, I get it. But one of the things you succeeded at is making this ancient philosophy, Stoicism, like cool, like people are all about it. Like it's groovy to be a Stoic and somebody, maybe it's you, maybe it's somebody else needs to do the same for some of these archetypes from the Eastern traditions. Because I think with the right storytelling, somebody could very easily accomplish that.

I think we get caught up in the language and these people we don't know and the kind of asceticism of it all. And it just becomes unrelatable. But if you actually read the Bhagavad Gita, like talk about warriors. These guys are like total badasses. And what they're doing, the stories are insane.

Yeah, like we think oh the odyssey is cool like you odysseus uh he's a badass he's like a warrior he's fighting he's doing all this the bhagavad-gita is basically the same poem yeah you know it's the same it's teaching the same lessons but it seems like this there's i i assume i would there's probably a certain amount of racism where we think it's soft and for pansies. We think one is a poem, but the Odyssey is a cool story. And that's because we've seen a bunch of movies, and there's other stuff about one and not about the other. So yeah, I was trying to make them accessible. Right. Well, in terms of the launching off kind of point for the book, contextually right now, we're in a culture in which we've never been more starved of our ability to be still.

Like we're in this crazy attention deficit era of unprecedented proportions. I mean, you talk about the CNN effect, but, you know, we're in the CNN effect on steroids. Like it's way crazier than just news being on television 24 hours a day. And it's become increasingly more and more difficult to put the phone down and spend, you know, one minute with ourselves. And we tend to think of this as, you know, a modern epidemic. And I thought it was really cool that you opened the book with this story of Seneca and you realize like, oh, this has been going on forever. Like this guy had the exact same problem that I had this morning. Yes.

Yeah, and actually I'd written the book without that. So I started with the Lincoln story. That's originally where the book was going to open. There's a story about Lincoln saying there's this city that's a key and that the Civil War can't be won without the key. And so it's like, oh, that's the title of the book, Stillness is the Key. That's what's going to be around. And I sent an early draft of it to Robert Greene. And he was like, I really like it, but I feel like you have to root it in where we are right now, which is amazing advice. And he's like, isn't there this letter from Seneca where he's like in Rome and he's like describing

exactly how noisy and loud it is and it sounds exactly like a modern city. And I was like, yeah, I think there is. Let me go look for that. And I found it and I was like, exactly. I was probably in a hotel room when I found it. It's noisy. I got a bunch of, and Seneca just,

he's writing to his friend and he's basically he's like it's so loud outside my window that i wish i was deaf you know and he's just he's staying above a gym basically and he's like these people are dropping weights and there's people splashing in the pool there was a guy getting arrested downstairs like you're just like it it sounds it sounded like a summer afternoon in New York City when you just want to blow your brains out because it's so loud. And he's like, but I'm trying to work. And he describes that stoic state, that apatheia, where that equanimity where you manage to tune it all out and you kind of go into that flow state and you do what you have to do.

And that's what stillness is to me. Stillness isn't like the monk who renounces all his possessions. And of course it's still because he's on a, you know, a 10 year meditation retreat in a beautiful, you know, Buddhist monastery in the mountains. It's like, oh, you can get this anywhere. And in fact, it's harder to get in real life, but that's where it's most valuable. Yeah. The mastery is in taking it into the world. And when you're somebody like Seneca or a Fortune 500 executive or a quarterback, you're shouldering tremendous responsibility and pressure. And there's a lot of external stimuli that's vying for your attention. And the mastery is in trying to figure out what's important and what's not, and being able to focus on what is key, actually, in moving you forward on the trajectory that

you're here to do. Yes. Yeah, that's exactly right. And that's why the people who can do it either produce the sort of stunning things that take our breath away or get paid all the money because like no one else can do it. It's really hard. And it was refreshing to hear Seneca like sort of struggling with this, grappling with it in real time.

Yes. Because we think of him as somebody who has mastered these skills. Well, and what I liked about Seneca's story is it's not just, hey, this guy has some ability to tune out the noise, because what if you're sensitive to noise? It's like also his personal life is collapsing. Everything's falling apart. Everything's.

So he's also going, like you're saying, yeah, there are all these outside noises, but oftentimes the noise is in your head. It's you or it's in your, you've got some spiritual malady that's causing and so it's that he's able to do it on all the fronts at the same time and clear it and clear it and get and and i don't think i don't think stillness is this i think the other things people think stillness is maybe that idea of nirvana like you you get there and then you're there i think it's it's like can you get it for 20 minutes and what can you do in the 20 minutes that you have you know what i mean it's like let's talk about football it's like the stillness that new england has down being being down 28 to 3 in the Super Bowl and just stringing together

four or five drives in 12 minutes to pull off this thing, maybe the high watermark of the entire game. And then you go back to regular life and you dream about getting back there sometime. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You just have these moments where it all comes together. And I think the book and what I've been thinking a lot about is like, how do you build a life? How

do you build habits? How do you build systems? How do you build a practice that lets you get there every once in a while? Because when you do, it's just magical. And that's where all the good stuff comes from. Yeah, there's gentle reminders throughout the book that these people weren't born this way. And for most of their these people weren't born this way. And for most of their lives, they weren't this way. We tend to look at somebody who exudes those qualities and just think like, wow, it would be cool to be like that person. But I have no idea how to do that. They're just, that's the way they are.

But you're saying, you're kind of nudging people towards this realization that, no, this is very accessible. It may be fleeting. It's a practice. Well, so I tell the story in the book of Kennedy and the Cuban Missile Crisis. And there's sort of no one, I think, who embodies what we're talking about more than Kennedy in the sense that he got there and yet also was the opposite of there all the time. And then also, when I think about writing that chapter like I you and I went for a run in Malibu like almost exactly a year ago as I just read all the stuff and I was trying to put it together and

you and I were talking on a run and I would say a good chunk of that chapter came together from us doing some sort of physical activity talking like that chapter wasn't it wasn't like that just magically came to me and i got it right the first time it was like it was just a bunch of different sort of flashes of getting there through different things like and and it came together over time and i shaped it and and but it it wasn't it it wasn but it wasn't... It wasn't a function of willfulness. It was more a function of letting go, which is another big theme in this book. Totally.

Like surrendering and finding the ability to be present so that these ideas can congeal in your mind and present themselves more fully formed. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It wasn't like some sprint of genius that I pulled out this chapter. It was like a lot of quiet time reading, and it was time doing this and time doing that, and time's just sitting there and just putting in the work, and eventually you get there, and hopefully there's some insight that resonates with someone and helps them do something.

A lot of note cards. A lot of note cards. A lot of note cards. What do you do with the note cards when you've finished a book? So they all get scanned in case there's a fire, and then I lose them. And then I just, they're there. It's like that book is the raw material, or that box of cards is the raw material. And I mean, they're all just sort of, of not displayed but they're sitting there in my office and it's actually really good because it's like oh i remember what i what i do when i look at those boxes because now i have you know

for each one of these there's one each one of my books is like this box is their own box it's like i remember taking that box out of the packaging and there was nothing and that's what a book is a book is filling that in yeah so there's a tactile element to it yeah just or it's just like it's a manifestation of the process it's like it's like if you run up a mountain you're like i remember being at the bottom of that mountain you know right and and so it's like i remember when there was zero note cards and now there's 2 000 note cards and so when i'm starting the next book it's like oh okay it always starts at zero put the stuff together and i've got enough boxes sitting over there to know that i can do this again yes and i also the other thing is the boxes, because I've talked about them, I don't think they make them anymore.

The price is like shot way up on Amazon. So I have like 10. So I like, it's almost like in a way, like I can flash forward to the end of my career. Like maybe I'll get to these, but it's just like, that's like my whole life right there. So they're just sort of gently in the back reminding you that there's more books I need to get written. Or just like if I was like, Rich, you'll have six more cars in your lifetime and they're parked in this parking lot over here. And you'll go through one after another. It's just a weird manifestation.

It's a reminder of your mortality too. And just the ephemerality of all of it. Right. Do you know what I mean? Like, oh, so I'm gonna fill these boxes and then, okay. That'll be my life. Yeah. Well, back to Kennedy.

Okay. He's a great, he encapsulates, you know, so much of what this book is about in that he demonstrates his ability to be still and navigate the Cuban Missile Crisis with, you know, the weight of the planet essentially hanging in the balance. And he gets, you know, everybody through that experience, but he's also a guy who started out as a dilettante and, you know, has all these family issues. His dad bought him a Pulitzer prize, basically. Yeah. Like there's all these, he didn't, he didn't start as this magnificent statesman. Yeah. And then later in the book, you kind of revisit him through all his sexcapades. Yeah.

And you realize like, oh, this guy is, yes, he has this moment where he's able to step up and do this, but he also is very human and flawed in many other ways. Yeah, it's like during, so during the Cuban Missile Crisis, there's this photo of him and he's leaning over the, like, so you see him from the back.

So it's like, he's behind me, and he's like standing there like this. And you can tell he's, I mean, just imagine, think, if I was like, Rich, I need you to come up with a solution to this problem. And if you don't, 60 million people die, probably including you and your family. You know, like, just the weight of that. And for him. And everybody's pushing you to make this one decision that you're not sure is right. And worse, it's a very satisfyingly primal

and justifiable thing that they're asking me to do. Do you know what I mean? They're like, don't get pushed around. And you're like, I don't want to get pushed around. You know, like they're telling him to do something that would be very seductive and natural. Like they brought Lyndon Johnson into the room and Lyndon Johnson, we got to bomb the shit out of Cuba.

You know, like it's just, that's just where, and so he resists that and it's so impressive. And yet during one of the 13 days, he asked someone on his staff to drive down this like girl from a liberal arts college. And then he has sex with her in a white house or in a DC hotel. Yeah. She was 19. Yeah. It's gross. I mean, it's just super gross. And so it's not just gross, it's like a man basically preying on a small, you know, the most powerful man in the world, like using his power to,

you know, manipulate a young girl. But it's like, for all he knew, this could be like his last night on the planet. And he's not at home. This is the choice that he's making. Yeah, he's not with Jacqueline and the kids. You know, it's like, I just, when I read that, I was like, what were they doing? Did he tell them? Like, did they know? And he was just pretending he was at work, did not even care. It just made me feel very sad. So how do you reconcile, like, this great moment where he's able to, you know, make a decision that changes the trajectory of history with, you know, the foibles of his personal life? So that's, like, a criticism I've gotten with my books. My answer is, like, I don't reconcile them.

Like people will go like, oh, you know, Ryan, you know, virtue is the highest aim in stoicism. And yet in, you know, The Obstacle's Way, you're telling a story about Erwin Rommel, who was, you know, a Nazi general, or Samuel Zimuri, who's like this basically robber baron who, you know, rapes Central and South America as the CEO of United Fruit. I'm not saying you should be like John Kennedy, the person. I'm

saying you should be like John Kennedy in the Cuban Missile Crisis, doing this one thing in the same way that we, if you, when you draw an analogy to something, you're not like, or if you say like, oh, this person's fast like a horse, you're not saying like, also, you know, they just like shit uncontrollably all over. Like it's not a complete analogy or metaphor. It's capturing the essence of this one thing in isolation. The idea of the book is like,

here's a bunch of people doing the right thing in the right moment. Can you as a person put them together? Like, can you put the goodness of Kennedy here and the goodness of so-and-so here and the goodness of so-and-so here and avoid the trap that Tiger Woods fell in. So the idea is like, can you grab a collection of all of the virtues of these people and avoid the vices that either them or other people fell prey to and come up with like a new combination? Yeah, yeah, yeah. a good and important choice to show that you know the rounded humanity of these people because if you only show the good thing then you are opening yourself up to that kind of criticism and we're in a culture right now where you know we're judging everybody on their worst actions and deciding that they need to be erased from the record forever yeah and and look one of the reasons i liked tiger i i like i learned this from Robert Greene, is you don't just show people observing the laws

or what you're trying to say. You also show the costs or the downsides of violating. Like in the 48 Laws of Power, it's observance of the law, transgression of the law. Like you're showing both. And so someone like a Tiger Woods was someone who had this intense mental discipline, but had a spiritual bankruptcy. And the idea is that if you

don't, if you only have one and not the other, it gets you pretty far, but eventually it all collapses under the weight of its own hypocrisy or contradictions. The Tiger Woods episode in the book, that's probably the example you spend the most time on, the most number of pages on. And I think it requires that because there's so many chapters to that to really understand it.

But you go into it, if I'm not mistaken, it's in the spirit section, right? You divide the book up into basically spirit section, right? Yes. You divide the book up into basically like mind, body, spirit. Right. I think the spirit section could also be entitled daddy issues. Yes, of course. Pretty much all these people have like huge issues with their dads.

Yeah, sometimes it's a mommy issue, but it's mostly dads. It's mostly dads, yeah, with these guys. Was it Kurt Vonnegut is like our parent, our mom and dad, they screw us up or something like, you know, it's like they try, but it's all their fault. Right. And there were certain aspects of Tiger's story that I didn't know how intense that was with his dad. Oh yeah, I think, and this was a different media environment

than we live in now, but I think we all sort of bought into this myth that like oh tiger woods just had like one of those hard driving like show parents and it's like tiger woods's dad may have been a psychopath like like it's like tiger woods's father was deeply abusive was like uh michael jackson's father level bad you know even that we go like, oh, you know, he was, Michael Jackson's dad was bad. It's like, no, Michael Jackson was like a horribly abused victim of a monster essentially.

And it produced this great champion, but then we all saw, you know, the wreckage ultimately that was manifested by that. It created a very fragile champion. Right, and then we have the great comeback also. Which is not in the galley, it's fixed in there. Right, yeah, I noticed that because I have the galley and I'm reading it

and I was like, oh, I wonder if he's gonna get to 2009. And you kind of mentioned 2009, but you don't go into detail on it. So in the final book, there's more? Well, I just, so I captured the downfall and then it was nice to see him winning that major. And the first thing he does is hug his son at the end of it.

So actually in the galley, it's a little bit more depressing because it's like a story with no redemption. And I do like that he redeemed himself. So I think it was missing a 5% change that, that it was able to dial. I mean, it's, it's great that he won. Um, I think, I think people are now willing to gloss over just how dark and bad it was, which is, you know, we do the same thing with Steve Jobs. We go, he came back from getting fired from Apple. And it's like, yeah, he was horrible. He should have been fired from Apple.

And probably on paper, it was crazy to bring him back. The Tiger Woods story is very dark and yes, very driven by daddy issues. Yeah. Well, from a very top level, the book really, when you are trying to drive the reader towards this understanding of what it means to be still and the importance of stillness, it strikes me as really this journey to

learn to turn inward and really crowd out the externalities. It's the externalities that create the confusion and the stress and the anxiety and the competitive nature and the measuring and all of those things that prevent us from being clear on what it is that is ultimately driving us. I think that's true, but I think maybe that's something that Eastern philosophy people misread and they go like, oh, okay, I got to eliminate noises. I got to eliminate distraction. I i gotta live a quieter life blah blah blah it's like tiger woods had like a monk-like obsession with golf but was so broken spiritually that it wasn't like noise in tiger woods's ear that was making him unhappy it was

the voice inside of his head you know what i mean and and so I think you can fix, I'm trying to say you've got to attack it from all angles. Like if you have mental discipline, but then you have this deep insecurity inside you that's going to never, never feel like you're enough, in a way, almost your mental discipline is your worst enemy because it's just going to be you think like oh i if i win a super bowl i will be happy you know or dad will love me if i become a billionaire and actually the michael jordan example of that famous speech that he gave yeah yeah and then also it's like you have those things but you eat terribly and you don't take care of yourself physically and you have bad habits it all feeds it there's there's no like one magical thing you do and you have stillness

it's this like process of of getting there right so if you're very mentally uh sound and disciplined but you don't take care of yourself physically, or you have all kinds of crazy emotional problems, synergistically, this is not going to work. It might work towards a short-term goal, but as a life. Yes, yes, exactly. Look at all of these things. Yeah. So it's like, yeah, your concentration helps you become a great artist, but what's motivating you to become a great artist? It's the sense that, you know, if you're famous, now you matter.

Or that if you get accepted by this cool crowd, now you'll feel good about yourself, you know, or- But then it begs the question of, you know, who are, who are you without those things, right? Like you talk about Kenzo, the archer and, you know, this idea of like letting go of, of hitting the bullseye, being detached, like holding onto things loosely and then trying to figure out how you square that with, well, if I want to be a champion, like I've got to be, you know, my, my, my eyes have to be on the prize.

I've got to be driven in some respect. And it's this balance of those two things. Yeah, Billie Jean King, the tennis coach, she was saying, so what makes you a great athlete is your relentless desire for improvement and never being satisfied with the current state of your performance, the irony is that that is obviously the attitude you need to become the best. But it is also antithetical to enjoying your life. Not only enjoying being the best, but to even acknowledge that you got to the top and you are the best. You know what I mean?

Right. that you got to the top and you are the best. You know what I mean? Right. Because you're like, you're focusing on how much left you have to do or how bad you feel after that. Like you're just never, you're never gonna feel good

because you have this quirk in your brain that makes you always focus on what's wrong. And, you know, like it's's when i wanted to be a writer i like it would have been like oh i could have a book that's making it and then quickly your mind's like oh well actually like what if it was a bestseller what if it sold a million copies or what if you had a whole bunch of books or you know what if you've won this award or what if you know like the idea that even one like if you told me at the opposite or the sorry the outset of say obstacle that one person in professional sports would have read the book

i would have been like done that's success i'll settle for that like i accept your offer that's it but then you're like well why hasn't so-and-so read it or you know like you know and there's that other guy over there that sold more books totally and on the one hand that's good that can one keep you humble like i once asked steven pressfield i was like wow what's it like to sell like a million books and he was like he's like i mean he's like unbroken has sold like 10 million copies and and and i was like that is like a good attitude because like it doesn't you're not like sitting look how awesome i am i know some of those people are like they're very quick to tell you how many copies they sell as if it says something. And so it keeps you humble, it keeps you hungry.

But at the same time, how grateful, it also deprives you of being grateful for what you've done. Yeah. And that gratitude and appreciation you've earned. But you're depriving yourself of it. Yeah. And that gratitude and appreciation you've earned. So you're, but you're depriving yourself of it. Yeah. So the solution lies in falling in love with process, really. I think so. Yeah. I mean, you talk about the word is enough. It comes up in the book a lot. The tiger was his dad called it the E word. Yeah, the E word that like tiger and his dad could never utter out loud that, you know, leaves him, you know, incredibly unhappy as a human being. But then you bring up the example of Heller who, you know, writes this amazing book and then goes on to continue to write books and kind of lets it go and is happy with his circumstances and yet still very productive.

Yeah. Yeah. So Joseph Heller is at a party with Kurt Vonnegut at the house of this billionaire and Vonnegut's like sort of needling him. And he's like, uh, Hey, you know, you wrote catch 22, but you know, this guy made more money than you, than you will ever make in your life, like at work this week, you know? And Heller goes, but I have something he'll never have. And he says, what's that?

And he says, the notion that I have enough. And I think we are all deep down very scared that if we ever say that word, that's the moment we become complacent and the guy behind us passes us. And in a way, it is like if you're running a race and you're like, oh, this is fast enough, like that's when you get passed.

So there is that element of it, but at the same time, like, so you're not allowed to be happy with the fact that you wrote one generational defining, like, you know, classic novel that helped millions of people and defined you know what that experience was for for a whole you know again a whole generation and and like my favorite thing from heller is this reporter goes like you know you've never written anything as good as uh

as catch 22 again and he says who has right so, right? So he is sad. I like that. That's just great. Maybe I won't ever write a book as good as Ego or Obstacle. Maybe they won't sell as many copies. But that's not going to prevent me from continuing to write, I don't think. I don't want it to. And what I want to do is love the process. Like I want to love sitting down, starting the next one.

Right. And part of what drives the process is understanding that there's a destination. Like it's this tension between these two that I think, look, these are the questions that go back, you know, eons that we struggled with, like competitiveness versus letting go. And you talk about like, you know, the no mind and being totally present and in the moment. And how do you reconcile that with deep thinking? Yes.

And how do you square being a very competitive person with these ideas about letting go and surrender? And like, you know, I have my own personal stories with this, with, you know, I've introduced to these ideas in sobriety, I'm like, surrender, like give up, let go. Like, no, that's not who I am at all. And yet when you really can grok what that means and implement those truths into your life, you realize that your life becomes much larger

and it flourishes and you don't have to, that fear of like well this is who i am this story that i tell myself about who i am i'm driven by these what you learn later are really character flaws character defects that flame out quickly and you know end up you know causing more damage than good yeah and i think the east and west sort of align on this. I think it's Confucius, but so he tells one student to do, he's like, you gotta avoid your parents. And then he tells this other student, you gotta go figure out how to love your parents.

I forget what it is. And this other student's like, but you just told them to do opposite things. And he was like, one student needs X and the other needs Y. And I think what I like about Eastern philosophy that I think Western philosophy is less explicit about is just this sort of like embracing or tolerance for paradox and contradiction and absurdity. Do you know what I mean? Like, it's just like, like. Like these Zen koans.

Yeah, like they're supposed to be confusing. I think that's what they... I think enlightenment is like, oh, maybe this doesn't really mean anything. You know, like it's the idea that there is what one hand clapping is. Maybe it's just like, maybe what enlightenment is

is sitting with that a long time and going like, maybe this is a trick question. Right. Or something. Well, with Stoicism, there's an inherent practicality and applicability. Like you can read that and you can immediately implement these things into your life and improve your quality of life. But the Eastern traditions are much more ephemeral, right? ephemeral, right? And perhaps that's where it gets frustrating and that's why it's not as cool as stoicism because I think it's demanding more of people because you really have to reckon with

these things in a deeper way to really get to the point where you can even understand what they're trying to communicate to you. Yeah. And Kenzo, who's the archery instructor in the Zen and the art of archery, I think he would have these Western students and they were like, show me how to do this. Like, I want to get better at this. And I think part of the reason his instructions were so vague and contradictory and weird was it was a overreaction to that idea that like this is the five-step process for becoming a master at archery you know what i mean like and becoming a master at anything really like basically saying master yourself before you even think about like what the arrow you know where the arrow is going to go like you have to become um somebody who knows how to be

present who knows how to you know remove distractions from their lives who knows how to be present, who knows how to, you know, remove distractions from their lives, who knows how to focus deeply. Like all of these things are things that you have to devote your entire, you know, years and years and years to get good at. And that's that, I think, you know, a big part of it is just like surrendering to whatever the master is telling you. And that's the hardest thing. Like we, it's like the student, it's almost like Eric, like when the student's like, teacher, teach me this, you know?

And I think with that sort of Zen Buddhist sort of archetype is like, you don't tell me what to do. I tell you what to do. You know what I mean? Like, it's, I think, and that's where that higher power idea comes in too. It's like, oh, wait, like you're not in charge.

Like fundamentally accepting that you're not driving the process. The process is driving the process and you have to submit to that. And I think it's not, I don't sit down and go like, I'm going to grab a book here out of, from brute strength. It's like, no, I'm going open myself up and I'm gonna follow the steps and it's going to ensue if I'm patient enough and accepting enough and vulnerable enough. Yeah, to have an open mind, to be teachable,

to be able to get into that Fred Rogers childlike state where you're able to hear something that might be at odds with the way that you see the world. Yeah. Yeah. It was interesting that you brought 12-step into it. Did I get that right, by the way? You did. Yeah. I mean, it's tricky to communicate what that's all about. And it took me a really long time to really understand what that was about. But I think you're very accurate in the sense that a lot of people are reticent to go into that community because of their hangups around

the word God and what it means to accept that there's a higher power. And truthfully, there is no religious strain in it whatsoever. It's just asking you to believe that something is greater than yourself. And addicts by their nature are control freaks, and they have strong opinions about how they see the world, and a lot of them are emotionally damaged and have hangups around the church, et cetera.

But all it's saying, like you could be the most anti-religious person of all time. But what I always say to people who are struggling with that is like, listen, for the life of you, you can't stop drinking, dude. So clearly you can't control that. And you go into this group and there's all these people here

who figured out how to do it. And they've been doing it for a little while. Like maybe they know something you can't control that. And you go into this group and there's all these people here who figured out how to do it. And they've been doing it for a little while. Like maybe they know something you don't like they're, they're your higher power. Yeah. They can be, you can just sit,

look at them and say, this group consciousness has more strength than I do. Yeah. And I think, I just think it's so, it's such an epitome of the attic mind and of, of our mind as a, it's like, it's like, epitome of the addict mind and of our mind. It's like, okay, so you enlist in the army and the drill sergeant's like,

shave your head and make your bed and blah, blah, blah. And you're like, well, none of these things matter. You're giving them your opinion. This is a 300-year-old institution that's created the greatest fighting force in the history of mankind that's done all these things and you this person who's thought about it for like eight seconds who's never done anything in their life is convinced that you know better right and and i think it's it's like it's i think a huge part of it is just like it's almost the fact that it's a hard thing

to do is what makes it so powerful and it's like it's like that, it's almost the fact that it's a hard thing to do is what makes it so powerful. And it's like, it's like, that's the initiation into the fraternity. Like, are you willing to do what we say? Do you, I think there's a part of that. I think that works. Yeah. It requires humility. I mean, the analogy in 12 step would be you walk in and they're like, go make coffee, sweep the floor. Like, you know, here you have a commitment. You have to say hi to every person that walks in the room. And you're like, what does this have to do with not drinking anymore? It's like, don't ask questions, just do it. And I struggled with that for a long time. And when I finally, I was so broken that I just let

go of all of that. And I just said, just tell me what to do and I'll do it. My life changed. Yes. And I think a big part of that is just being malleable and teachable. Yes. No, I think that's true. And it's the willingness to ask for help and also, perhaps even more powerfully, the willingness to accept help. And look, I'm still an atheist. I can't get my head around the idea that there is a God, particularly like a Christian God. Like, I just have trouble with it. God, particularly like a Christian God, like I just have trouble with it. But at the same time,

what I struggle with, what at least keeps my mind open, and then what sort of inspired this chapter is it's like, but basically, every person that I admire that's ever lived for almost all of human history, they were able to wrap their head around this. Like, why am I better than them? Why am I smarter than them? That can't be right can't, that can't be right. Do you know what I mean? So where does that leave you? It leaves me with at least, at least the, like, it definitely makes me go from atheist to agnostic, right? Which I think is a big step, right?

Because atheist says, like, I know there's not a God. Agnostic says, I don't fucking know. You know what I mean? So I think it at least gets me there. And then there are moments where I can go, like, this is just all incomprehensible. There must be something. Do you know what I mean? And so it's gotten me closer to the idea of there being a higher power, or at least the idea that, like,'m very comfortable going like, I'm not in charge and I'm not choosing really any of this.

Yeah. And so how do you think about that with respect to stillness? Like somebody's connection to their form of faith and... I mean, I don't, I just, I find it doesn't strike me as a coincidence that the stillest people are all the ones. Not religious in the fundamentalist sense. Those are probably the most miserable people, and they're probably compensating for the intense doubt and self-loathing that they actually feel. But the people who undergo Jesus on the cross in this horrible pain asking for forgiveness for the people who inflicted it on him, I mean, that's just like incredible to wrap your head around, you know? Or just the, you know, the sort of the prayer, the person falling to their knees and praying when the world is, you know, the weight of the world is on their shoulder. I just find that to be so beautiful and inspiring.

And it's like, how do I get there? And then going, you know, even back to the idea of the gods, just this idea that like, oh man, there are these things happening that are beyond us. And that we are not the central driving forces of our lives for the universe i can get there pretty easily the stoics had this idea that that so the logos which is actually means the way in the bible but it predates christianity you know marcus really is is ideas that were like a dog tied to a cart and so like the dog can fight against the cart, dog can lay down and be dragged

by the cart, or the dog can run alongside the cart cheerfully. I can get there. Yeah. Well, the example from the book that springs to mind is the astronaut who looks at earth when he's orbiting and extrapolating on that idea. The more you kind of look at, you know, the magnitude of the universe or the, you know, when you drill down to the tiniest subatomic particles, like stuff gets crazy. Like our brains can't even begin to understand what's happening. And for me, like, that's where I can find a healthy place of awe and wonder. And that place of humility also, like we don't, maybe someday we'll understand this, but maybe not. Maybe it's beyond our mental capacity to fully grasp.

And rather than that making me uncomfortable, I actually find comfort in that. Yeah, I mean, I read this book a couple years ago and it was talking about like basically about basically the history of extreme weather. And it was saying that we basically didn't know what a tornado was until right around the time of the founding of America. Because they don't really have tornadoes that much in Europe. And it's sort of an American thing. It's like a Midwest thing, basically.

So there would be these reports where it's like all of a sudden like one side of a street was destroyed and not the other side of the street you know and you're just like what and so when the world was so inexplicable and we had so little science it was much easier to go like oh yeah god right? Like I could imagine, like you hear this terrible sound and you run and you hide and then you come back and it looks like God just destroyed, smited down the sinners or whatever. And you go back further to the Greek or ancient idea of the gods,

like when the universe was much harder to explain, it was easier to get there and so in a way it almost it's almost a greater challenge but a more meaningful challenge to seek out that awe and to look at it and so i mean talking about going to space have you seen like the blue marble photo like it's that famous iconic photo of earth from space it's like that photo was taken in like 1971 like we that's that's like 50 years ago for the first time we saw earth from not earth and so when i think about that i go like wow that's like that gets me a little bit of that humility and awe you know to look at that photo but it's so fleeting you know you think look at that photo. But it's so fleeting. You know, you think like that is such a magnificent thing

that should just permanently alter our perception, you know, of who we are and our importance and all of that. But it evaporates almost immediately and we're back to our phones and our daily lives. And, you know, the example that beautifully illustrated that in the book is Abramovich's art installation at MoMA, where for like 79 days straight, she stares at people all day long, like walk us through that. So everyone should watch the documentary, The Artist is Present. It's incredible.

I think it's on Netflix. But basically, so she's doing this retrospective at MoMA of her entire career. And she's a famous, you know, creative, but provocative performance artist. And the exhibit is called The Artist is Present. And because that's what she is, she's present in her work. So she comes up with the idea of like, I'm going to be present for every day of the exhibition. And she gets a table, not like this this and they sit there and a line of people one after another gets like five minutes to just sit across from her and she just sits there and stares at them in the face she doesn't go to the bathroom she doesn't get up she takes she goes to she goes

home every night but like like an eight-hour shift basically an eight-hour shift immobile in a chair and the only thing she gets is between people. She looks down, gathers herself, and then looks up. She gets to go to the bathroom? No. For eight hours she can go to the bathroom. And she doesn't eat or anything? She doesn't eat.

She doesn't do anything. It's like inhuman. So they ask her collaborator. It's like her ex-husband but her former artistic partner. And they describe to him what she's going to do. And they go, what do you think? And he goes, I have no thoughts, only respect. Which is like kind of like what I think of your Iron Man of Iron Mans.

Do you know what I mean? Like I don't, it's like so incomprehensibly impressive that you're just like, wow, okay. You know what I mean? Like you're just like, wow. It. You know what I mean? Like, you're just like, wow. It just, you're like a human did that. Well, I think with her, like when I read that in the book, like no, I have no thoughts, just respect.

I was also thinking like, she has no thoughts either, only respect. Like she shows up and sits across from another human being and is fully 100% present for that experience. And there's nothing more respectful that you can do for another human being than to give them your undivided attention. And the crazy thing is that

even though she's not saying anything, even though none of that is like in the description, like everyone immediately feels it. Like in the documentary, you can watch people, you'd sit down and they would just start weeping because they'd never, I mean, I've never experienced that. I mean, maybe I have, but you know what I mean? Like I've never just, it's probably what people,

and I'm not comparing it, but that's probably what people, and I'm not comparing them, but that's probably what people felt being near Jesus. Or it's one of the, like when you, when one of these prophets, and look, sometimes they're mentally ill, that's where they're getting it. Hugging Alma. Do you know about Alma, the hugging saint?

No. She's this woman, like this, you know, enlightened, you know, higher consciousness. And she travels the world and wherever she goes, thousands of people show up and wait in line just to, you know, and she gives everybody a hug. I've had that experience too. And it's like, whether she's enlightened or not is neither here nor there. It's just somebody who is so present for that kind of experience is a rare thing. Yeah. and then we know that,

and yet we live our lives the exact opposite of that. Right, and so I feel like the installation is this twofold thing. Like one, to provide people with a glimpse of what that can be like, that experience, but also to underscore and illustrate the ephemerality of the whole thing because everyone just immediately goes back to you know they just it lapses immediately or all

the bad behavior that gets manifested in people jockeying for position in line and well this one woman she you she gets up there and she takes her dress off and it was clearly like she'd she decided not to wear underwear so that like she planned out like so you can track marina is completely present and meanwhile this woman spent weeks planning and executing a stunt and who knows what her intention was i don't think she was like i just want attention but it was like she was the opposite of marina you know what i mean and that she was calculating and just want attention but it was like she was the opposite of marina you know what i mean and that she was calculating and thinking about the react like and that's to me who we what we are right and so that's but i think that's the real statement yes in the art install

in in her performance right is to is to demonstrate that this is this is what we do as human beings. Yes. And that even, what does it say, that presence for five minutes is a life-changing, it's like a ride at Disneyland. Do you know what I mean? It's like, everyone's got to go on Splash Mountain one time. Everyone's got to go see Mount Rushmore. Everyone's got to see the Mona Lisa. It's not, even though any of us could get it ourselves

at any moment, we want to pay to see it at a museum and then wait in line and then- And try to distract the person and throw them off. Like our goal is to like, you know, just ruin it and destroy it. Yeah, yeah. It's like, I wanted to, you know, scribble on the Mona Lisa instead of just take it in. Right. Or I got to take a take a like this is a little

like smart i think this is 2010 so it's not you see people in the audience using flip phones you know uh which i know the smartphone is definitely invented but they had not consumed uh the world selfie culture hadn't completely yeah i don't know if Instagram might not have existed yet. But the point is, like, it wasn't quite like, mind, let's butt that up against the importance or value of deep thinking. Okay. And how those two things kind of contradict but also can live complementarily. Well, so I was talking, I was actually talking to, I don't, I don't think it's a problem to say that. So I was talking to Sean McVay this morning, who's the coach of the Rams. And it was, so on the one hand, you want to be present. You want to go with the flow. You want to do, you want to do all

that stuff. And then he was upset about something that he'd seen at practice, right? And I watched him sit there in his office, work himself out of acting on that anger. Do you know what I mean? Like he was like, I didn't like how we practiced today. I'm gonna like, I'm disappointed in the team. We're better than this. But instead of, he actually, he canceled. Yeah, I think I can say this. But instead of, he actually, he canceled, yeah, I think I can say this. He canceled the team meeting that they were about to have because he didn't want to go in there and unload on

everyone. Because it would have made him feel better, but it wouldn't have solved the problem, right? And he didn't, he couldn't yet, he didn't have a handle on what had caused the problem and what the solution was yet. And so it's this balance of like, yeah, let's be where your feet are. Go with the flow. Let go. You know, don't suppress your emotions. And yet also objectively, we know a large portion of our emotions are harmful and destructive and you know short term and and what you need is the ability to like zoom out see yourself from a distance extrapolate out into the future and go

what will happen if i do x like kennedy and the cuban missile crisis is totally present and yet at the same time working out the decision tree of if i do x they will do y and then i will be do this and where will that lead us? Yeah. So that's what I mean where it's like, that's not a contradiction. That's just fucking life. You know, life is complicated. And sometimes the situation calls for A, and sometimes it calls for the opposite of A.

Yeah. I mean, the master in that situation would be detached emotionally from what was transpiring in front of him and would be present enough to have clarity on what the next best decision or action would be to take and would be able to fluidly implement that in the moment and would not have canceled the meeting because that person would have been able to comport themselves and communicate in a way where it could you know culminate in a productive result. Yeah, although I wouldn't, I don't know if I'd say like that he's somehow short of mastery.

I think it's more he's like, I know where I am right now and I know where I'm going to end up after I work through this. So I'm going to give like, so Kennedy in the Cuban Missile Crisis, he has this expression, he says, I want to use time as a tool, not as a couch. And what he means by that is like, I'm not going to sit back and just do nothing. I'm going to give myself time and space so I can use it. And what Sean was doing is going, if I react now, it will be out of anger or frustration. And if I react now, it will be out of anger or frustration.

But if I can think through this and come to a solution, I can not only solve this problem, but I can also model to my players the importance of not being ripped around by your passion. He's like, how can I get mad at a player who, objecting to a bad call from a ref ref gets a flag and sends us back 10 yards and then turn around and do that in practice. The distinction that I see in that is he had the self-awareness to realize that he was not going to be responding productively, but that he was going to be reacting emotionally, right? And that self-awareness was such that he was able to put the brakes on his original plan and not make that mistake. Yes. I guess what I'm saying is the master wouldn't have even had to go through that calculus

because they would be in a place of- Yes. They would have the capacity to respond. And I think the distinction with JFK is he needed to buy that time for himself, but he also realized it would be productive for Khrushchev because he knew that Khrushchev over time would come to a healthier realization about what the next best thing would be. Well, and so two things, actually, that was something I talked to Sean about. And it was like,

you're, one of the things he was frustrated with was how the players had stepped up, that none of the players had stepped up in practice and solved the situation. And that he didn't feel like it was, he didn't want to be the coach that fixes everything. This is what you want a great leader on the field to do. And so the idea that he would jump all over them and tell them exactly what the problem was and not give them time to fix it themselves

was actually only compounding the exact problem he was hoping. Yeah, I get it. You know what I mean? So it's like, my problem is nobody stepped up on the field in the moment and was like the leader and said, come on, guys, let's do this, right? And he's like, but what if they do it in the hall on the way to breakfast this morning? It's not as fast as I want, but it's, you know what I mean? Yeah, I get it.

And so I think that's really important. And yeah, that is what Kennedy was doing in the missile crisis. He's like, I don't think Khrushchev thought this all the way through. And if I give him some space, he'll come to his senses. I'm not going to let him walk all over me, but I'll let him figure this out. And I'm not going to make it worse. I'm not going to back him. I'm not going to put him in a position where he can't do that and and i would guess someone like i mean sean has only been a

head coach for a few years he's already one of the most sort of ascendant promising coaches of an entire generation i mean he's my age and he coached the team in the super bowl it's incredible yeah but i would yeah i would imagine him in 15 or 20 years when he's been when he's seen this 15 times that's when you become the master and you go exactly what you said you you're just like so intuitive you can't even explain how you knew exactly what to do in that moment and and yeah it's probably a a thing you get so when you're you're there and you're observing this do you say something like are you just watching it's both i mean on the one hand like I'm just a student of all these things. So I love just being a fly on the wall and I'm learning and I love seeing, it's easy for me to talk about these things. Philosophy, it's even easy for me to

read a bunch of books on the Cuban Missile Crisis, but I'm never going to be in the situation room when that's happening. So I'm always, one of the reasons i say yes to speaking things or i even you know i have my company that works with authors and brands is that like it's putting me in a position to just see stuff that i can then translate into my writing and then yeah people ask for my advice and and i i offer it i don't know how helpful it is but you know i i just love to me like i learn a when I go, like I'm talking to them about stuff, which is stuff I know about, but I really am there to see stuff I don't know about. Yeah.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around this distinction between presence and thought in the sense that we have Eastern traditions that talk about, you know about this idea of no mind, like focus on the breath. Like the idea is to really try to broaden those moments where your consciousness is not invaded by narrative, right? And that provides the space and the calmness

and the stillness for inspiration, for correct action, for all of these things versus what would be more of in the tradition of the Coens. Like, let's grapple with these, you know, the mental gymnastics of a very difficult problem to train our brains to learn how to take these right actions. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, there's this one sort of stoic, he's almost more of a cynic, but he's just sort of stoic. His name's Aristo and he's this early stoic. He's sort of a contrarian.

And he was like, the wise man doesn't think, simply pops into his head what the right thing to do is. And that sounds like a very Eastern thing. I just don't know if that's true. And I know from my experience that maybe it's a mix of both, right? It's like I'm thinking very deeply about a writing problem that I have or cracking the code on this Kennedy chapter or any of the chapters in the book. And then I'm working on it and I make some progress. Like I get words down, I get it in order. And then I go for a run or a swim later in the afternoon

and then the real solution pops in my head. And I don't know if you can have one without the other. I think it is both. I think it is both. Like Kennedy has to game theory every possible outcome and do these decision trees to figure out, like, what could possibly happen with anything that he does. But fundamentally, also, these decisions need to be a function of a well-honed intuition, and that's really developed through being able to be present with yourself. And he goes swimming during the Cuban Missile Crisis. He writes a letter to the-

Swimming's a big thing with a lot of people. I think so, I think so. He's obsessed with water. I mean, he's a guy that grew up on the water, you know? But he writes a letter to the gardener from the White House like thanking her because she helped. The Rose Garden was a big deal. Yeah, yeah, and I think, look, it's like if you-

Mr. Rogers went swimming, which I did not know. Oh, it's beautiful. It's beautiful. I want to go to the Pittsburgh Athletic Club where he swam. I just want to be in that space. But he, and have you seen the previews for the Tom Hanks movie? I saw the trailer, yeah. He swims in it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I think from reading Eastern philosophy and maybe look there's parts that are missing from stoicism that maybe they explain in length in other texts that were lost but it's like you almost get the sense from like buddha or something it's like oh so you're telling me i can solve like complex math theorems by just like sitting there and it pops into my head like that's not that's not true but and i know you had cow on i think it's it's like that's not true. But, and I know you had Cal on, I think it's like, it's both. It's like working very intensely,

eliminating distractions, doing the work, and then the solution pops in your head in the shower. Yeah. You know, like I think you need both. How have you taken what you've learned from the process of writing this book? Like how have you made changes in your own life? Like what is it that you're struggling with the most

where this has been helpful? So like today was a good example and I didn't do a good job of it, but it's like I had two podcasts, I had this and another podcast, I had things in the morning and then I had to drive here from Orange County and I had to check into my Airbnb in time

and I had this email that has to go out and i need my wife to like proof it and then i wanted to get a run in and like all of a sudden i'm like i'm like stressed out of my mind i got like all these things and they have to go right in the right order and i was like writing in my journal i was like you know i don't i don't want to feel flustered today and i don't want to be short with people because none of this matters. Do you know what I mean? It was hard for me to text you to say,

hey, could I come 30 minutes later? Because my instinct is like, I'll just white-knuckle this. Do you know what I mean? I got that, and I was like, yes. But my thing is I'll just squeeze it all in. I'll just fucking squeeze it all in. And so that like, yes, no, but my thing is like, I'll just squeeze it all in. I'll just fucking squeeze it all in. And, and so part of that's part of letting go too. It's like, like, this is all an illusion in my mind. Like this, the pressure, nobody is actually saying like,

I even scheduled, like I picked this. It's not even like, I'm not even like some actor where it's like the publicist put me on this tour, you know? But just realizing how much of the pressure I put on myself and how many of the times I force myself into situations that are going to make the end state that I want very unlikely. So that's been a big one. Having kids has probably been the primary. I guess my thinking would have been like having kids will be chaotic and stressful and difficult and so I'll have less.

But it's actually been the exact opposite because there's such a good reminder of like what you could actually be anytime if you choose to be. Yeah, and what's really important. I mean, you talk about relationships in the book and any hard driving type A personality is prone to fantasies of what their life would be like

if all people went away, we could just do what we do and there'd be no obstacles or anybody else vying for our attention or our time. And, you know, that's one of the great illusions, I think. And as messy and as difficult and time-consuming as relationships are, you know, you pointed out very point blank in the book, like, yeah, but then there's no value in anything that you're doing. Yeah, yeah. Like there's this quote from Philip Roth that I found. He'd been married for a long time.

Apparently it was like a horrible marriage because a woman wrote like this nasty memoir about it. But he was saying, he was like, now that I'm single, he's like, all I have to focus on is my work. He's like, it's like there's always an emergency and I'm the patient or something like that. And I was like, that sounds horrible. Like the fact, like what my life would be if I was 100% in charge of it and it was all about me would be so, sometimes you think that's the fantasy.

You go like, oh, that guy's single. He goes where he wants. He does whatever he wants, you know? And then you realize like, that fantasy is You go like, oh, that guy's single. He goes where he wants. He does whatever he wants. And then you realize like, that fantasy is actually a fucking nightmare, especially when you go through difficult stuff. It might be nice on a Tuesday, beautiful. You do whatever you want.

You go for a two-hour run instead of going like, I got to be back here in 45 minutes or whatever. You go for a two hour run instead of going like, I gotta be back here in 45 minutes or whatever. But what about when you get a cancer diagnosis or what if you, when you find out your, I don't know, your book got rejected or, you know, like the relationships are there for the hard times. And also if you're in the right relationships

with the right people, these things float your boat. I mean, this is like an accelerator to everything that you imagine for your life. Well, I've been saying that too. Like, I think the generation before, maybe the couple generations before, you know, that experienced so much pressure to have kids. Like, you have to have kids. You have to have them by this time. You know, a woman's job is to have kids. Like you have to have kids. You have to have them by this time. You know, a woman's job is to have kids.

Did a really good job making it clear that like having kids is hard and that you can't really have it all. And there's a lot of sacrifices and it takes a lot out of you and all this stuff. And I think in the process kind of underplayed like what you get in the trade. Do you know what I mean? And that like, it's like, like who was it? There's some author and he was talking about how he's a great writer, like a very famous writer.

And he was saying that someone came up to him and said, don't have kids. Every kid you have is a book you'll never write. And he was like, that haunted me. And he's like, now here I am like writing this, you know, I'm looking out at my like three sons and I'm like, I'll take that trade any day of the week. Like what, none of these books matter, you know, like at the end of the day, none of these books matter.

None of the work we do matters really. Like it matters, but it doesn't matter. And the idea that like you're not gonna have kids or you don't have time to get married or be in a serious relationship with someone because like the startup you're making is so important. It's just laughable if you look at it with any kind of distance.

The kind of flip reaction to that though is, oh, well, it's easy for you to say because you're successful, right? And it's in the sense that, oh, you can say that this success isn't all it's cracked up to be because you're secure in your trajectory. And I think there's a delusion that we may intellectually understand that, and yet we feel like it doesn't apply to us. Sure. Although when I think about it, I go, I should have had kids earlier. I don't go, now I'm successful, I can enjoy it. This goes back to my theory that you were born out of time. Yeah. No, I just think, I get that. And look, I also have help. People are like, how do you balance it all?

And it's like, I pay someone to help watch my kids. You know what I mean? And my wife doesn't have to go to an office every day because we have our own business. I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is that I get what they're saying. They go, it's easy for you to say you have it. At the same time, because I have it, I can tell you that, you know, you think that writing a bestselling book or having a lot of money will make you feel good and that you'll feel whole.

And that's the big lie that we all believe. and that's the big lie that we all believe and it's like at the only moments where i really feel good like my walk in the morning with my son that's a that's what wholeness feels like uh you know hearing my my book hit number one it feels nice for like eight seconds, but that's a biological adaptation where we go, hey, if we cross that ocean, if we kill those people and take what's theirs, then we'll be happy. Then I'll feel good about myself. The unabated craving. Yes. That compels us. And to go to the daddy issues, I think for me it was like, oh, if I really get successful and it's, this is where my daddy issues is, but it's like if I'm objectively successful and what I do is very impressive, then my parents will give me what they should have given me at birth for being alive. And how's that going?

It's a constant struggle, you know? But I mean, one of the nice parts of getting the stuff, it's nice that I got it, but the blessing and the curse of it is you go, nope, still doesn't do it. You know, it's like, and then it was nice for what i basically it was freeing to go like all right and maybe some and some people don't get this gift but it's going like all right this doesn't impress these people nothing will and i can stop trying i can stop doing these things to get that there's a relief in that yeah well one of the tools that you talk about in the book for for navigating this which I love, is this idea of holding on loosely. Yeah. chances are like there's going to be problems with you and the people who can

kind of release their grasp on it, hold it a little bit, you know, less tight, be open to, you know, dips and turns along the way are the people who ultimately end up in a better place. Yeah. It's like, uh, you go to a driving range one time and you get this, uh, proven to you pretty quickly. It's like the harder you try to hit a golf ball, not only the less far does it go, but the worse the shot is. And the idea that that's not true in life, which is much harder than golf, is ridiculous.

Yeah. I was just in Montana a couple days ago for this event. It was like this gathering, a bunch of cool athletes and people were there. And I had an opportunity to do a live podcast with this woman, Gwen Jorgensen, who won the Olympic gold medal in triathlon in the last Olympics and was dominant in her sport for a long time. And now she's making the transition to marathon running, which is super ballsy. Like it's a great story. But what this holding on loosely thing reminded me or just made me think about this conversation

was that she started out as a swimmer. She swam at the University of Wisconsin and she kind of rode the bench. Like she wasn't that great. That'd be a bad place to swim. Why? Because it's so cold. Well, you're indoors.

You swim indoors all the time. No, but just the, it's like, I'd rather swim in a warm place. Like just the waking up early, going out in the cold, like better be a swimmer in a place where it doesn't snow is what I'm saying. Well, I'm with you on that. But, you know, she grew up as a kid, like holding on very tightly to this idea

that she wanted to be an elite swimmer, an Olympic swimmer and wrote her goal times on her ceiling and like the whole deal. Right. And meanwhile, like every once in a while she'd go out and run and she was this like incredibly gifted runner to the point where people were like, Hey, you should really think about like running track. And she'd be like, no, I'm a swimmer. Like she held on so tightly to this idea, this identity that she had crafted about who she was that she couldn't see this other potential avenue for herself.

And I think it short-circuited her. I mean, eventually it was inevitable. She like made the switch to track and she couldn't even qualify for NCAAs in swimming. And like within a year, you know, like being brand new to this sport, immediately is like you know she's like big 10 champion and like the rest is history but i wonder like had she held a little bit more loosely yeah perhaps she would have realized that much sooner isn't that lance armstrong story too he was a triathlete and then

it was like oh you're just way better at biking than the other things. And I think it's very, I mean, I love David Epstein's book on range where it was like, oh, the problem is that they told Tiger Woods he was a golfer and that all of his identity was in being a golfer. Paul Graham has this amazing essay called Keep Your Identity Small.

So it's like, if you see yourself as a Republican, it's hard for you to change your mind when you, it's hard for you to change your mind. It's hard for you to see an issue objectively because you're looking at it from the lens of my identity as a Republican. And you don't want to – even though you actually think X, that contradicts your identity as a Republican. So you think about it differently. And he says something like the more labels you put on yourself, the stupider you are. Because now all of a sudden you've limited what your options are.

You've constructed this sense of who you are, this story that you tell. Yeah. And so I think this ties into the inner child thing too, where it's like, so if your thing is like, I got to impress mom and dad, and what are the things that impress mom and dad, you've already closed yourself off to all. Maybe mom and dad don't mom and dad respect doctors but like you're actually put here to be a guitar player yeah and so how many amazing talents get squandered because you know your mom and dad are going to find a way if your mom and dad have made you being a doctor

uh part and parcel of them loving you they're going to find a way to not love you even when you're the world's best doctor. Do you know what I mean? They're going to go like, oh, you work here? Or they're going to be like – That's like a Neil Strauss tweet. Yeah. But I think it's true. Do you know what I mean?

If you – they're just in the way that we move the goalposts on ourselves, so are they. Right. Because that's what we do. Have you found, what's the biggest, like have you changed course on any long held ideas that you've had? Like have you had changes of heart or like,

wow, I always thought this was this way. And as a result of all this work and research and deep thinking that I've done on these subjects, I'm changing my mind on this. I mean, I do like changing my mind. I don't know if I have like some like great example or like I switched from, you know, this to that, but yeah, I don't, I don't know if I have one, but I think that is a good, a great question is like, where, where do you change your mind mind have you changed your mind recently um i think a big one for me is just like going like i i need to like not care less but like i have wrapped a chunk of my identity up around like knowing a lot about a lot of things and having

interesting opinions about them. And like trying to get more comfortable with being like, I don't, I've never heard of that. Like, yeah, I don't know what's happening there. Right. Sure. You're right. You know, like, like just like. Instead of being the guy who always is like, oh yeah, I read a book about that.

Yeah. Yeah. Or just like, like, oh, let me tell you why you're wrong about this. Like, it's like, can I, can I, like Marcus really says, he's like, you know, it's possible to not have an opinion about things. Like, you could just not have an opinion. That is possible.

Yeah. It feels unnatural. Well, we're in this, you know, back to the current culture. Like we've, you know, calcified our ability to be nimble with ideas. And, you know, we're expected to toe a certain line and have an opinion on everything. And I think it entrenches these narratives

and it's splitting us apart. And it's eroding the fabric of our culture and our ability to have productive conversations. Yes. Yeah, no, the radicalization of one side radicalizes the other side. And then it just- And there's a lot of energy behind preventing you from changing your mind on anything.

Yeah. Because the risk of stepping outside of whatever doctrine you're sort of associated with is become suddenly very high. Right? suddenly very high right so it's like what they're trying to do is take away your ability to think about this and trying to to sort of put blinders on you and ratchet up the stakes artificially and make it impossible for us to like come to any kind of compromise or solution or you know what i mean there's like you can't you can't have an opinion about this you can only have this party line and and to adopt a contrary opinion is to face ostracization yes you know sure and it it goes to you talk about this in the book too like the information diet right i didn't realize like thich nhat hanh had spoken about yeah i think he was actually probably more talking about what you

talk about that i think he was i think if I remember that quote correctly, he's talking mostly about food. But, you know, it's like, look, if, the idea that peace and stillness and clarity and compassion and goodness is going to come out of that is delusional. Yeah, the opportunity cost. I mean, this willingness that you have to have to not be fully informed all the time. Like there's this compulsion that so many of us have that we need to be up to date on everything all the time and have an opinion so that if we meet somebody, we can say the right thing or whatever. And the truth is the opportunity cost of that is that you deprive yourself of that ability to think deeply about what's most important. And you have to be willing to be like, no, I hadn't heard about that or I don't know about that or I didn't see that. I didn't watch the debate. I didn't see the latest movie or whatever it is.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that feels like you're being – it's like a dereliction of duty but it's like actually your duty is to go read a history book and understand where this all fits in you know what i mean your duty is not to follow trivia in real time like and also there's a humility i've i started saying this it's, smart people are on that. Like, we have our people on that. You know what I mean? They don't necessarily, I am not the savior that's gonna ride in and save that issue.

There are things where I might be able to do that. You don't need to have an opinion and voice your opinion on everything on Twitter. Yes, yes. Like, I think the two mass shootings that happened, I mean, this will go later, but like two mass shootings, it's like, they don't need me to condemn this. It's objectively wrong.

Like, you know what I mean? Like, that's- Do you feel that pull though, as somebody with an audience? Like when something like that happens and I open up Twitter and I look at what's going on, I feel like, do I need to say something? And I'm like Twitter and I look at what's going on. I feel like, do I need to say something? And I'm like, I don't- I think the ego is in the, like, I'm going to move the needle on this one.

Like, look, if you're, you know- Because you have to square that with, like, silence is, you know, if you're silent about things that are wrong in our culture, like, you're complicit. Right. But it's like, I'm not silent talking to – I mean, I'm not talking to my two-year-old about it. But I'm not going to – if I had a teenager, I wouldn't be silent about it. Do you know what I mean? I would not be silent about it where I have real impact. So it's an interesting thing because I'll write – I feel like my job is to write, is to apply sort of ancient wisdom in history to modern life.

So I'll write something. I wrote an email on Monday for Daily Stoic, which is like this email that goes out to people. And I wrote a thing about Marcus Aurelius and Seneca were both two real world politicians who dealt with like actual tyrants and murderous dictators, right? And so they were talking about, you know, what it's like to actually be these people, you know, like Seneca was in Nero's court, like worse than Donald Trump by a factor of a hundred, right? And he's talking about, you know, like, what these people are like

and what it's like to be them. And so I was writing a thing about how, like, nobody, like, people are like, what should I tell my children about Donald Trump? And they think it's like, you know, these lessons about the specific policies when it really should be about, like, it should be like, kid, this is what it's like to be a horrible person. Like, you know what, this is what it does to you. And character matters. And that you don't need to talk to them about the fact that he was, you know, he said you should grab women by the pussy. I mean, you do in that you teach your kids like what boundaries are and what respect is. But it's more like you don't need to talk to him about the word choice of pussy.

You need to talk to them about character. Right. And so I send out this email. I think it's very well-reasoned. It's deliberately non-partisan. I'm a center-right person. But then I watch all the people unsubscribe, you know? And my point, they always send me,

why did you do this? I love you. I love your writing. You shouldn't be partisan. And like, what I say is like, my job is to say what I think and what's important and what I think the facts support in the context with which I do my work. And what I don't do is think about

what the financial repercussions for doing that are. Does that make sense? Yeah, it goes back. I mean, it's a predominant theme in your book, which is basically learning how to hone your instincts and your intuition. And through that process matched with deep thought to, you know, express a cogent informed opinion that is liberated from the external ramifications of, you know, putting that out into the world.

Yeah. Like Marx's realist line says, just do the right thing. The rest doesn't matter. And so it's like, I thought that was the right thing to write creatively, politically, philosophically. And so if 500 people who I worked very hard to bring into the universe left because of that, like, whatever. Life is way too short to not say what I think, to keep people whose opinions I don't respect following my work.

And life is also too short to be upset by that or, you know what I mean? And so you just, you say what you say. I don't think it's, I'm not saying it's courage, but it's like your obligation as an artist is to speak truth as you see it. It's not to change the world. Your job is to speak truth. Whether that truth ends up changing the world is one thing, but... Yeah. It goes to this idea of virtue not being an abstraction, but an action. Absolutely. Yeah. It was interesting to read about how Seneca became, he became a victim of basically being power hungry

under Nero, right? Yeah. Despite all of his incredible wisdom, he still couldn't walk that line of virtue to distance himself from this terrible person. Because his own fortune was too closely tied to it. Yeah. of virtue to distance himself from this terrible person. And that's what I think- Because his own fortune was too closely tied to it. Yeah, and I think, yeah, it's like the stoics over and over, virtue is enough.

Virtue is sufficient. What's right is doing the right thing. And here you have this guy making compromises. Probably, I mean, and I've been there because I've worked for people, not nearly as bad as you, but I've worked with people that, you know, certainly in retrospect, certainly getting older, but even at the time, you have ethical concerns about. And you're like, but if I don't do this, there's the savior conflicts. If I don't do this, a worse person is going to take this job. And then, you know, like, so it's, I got to do this.

And then the other is like, but this is my shot. You know what I mean? Well, yeah, when you're young too, it's harder to. But I think like, so there's a couple Republican senators who read the Daily Stoic. And one of the weird, even weirder than the sports team is like a couple of times they've had me to the Senate dining room to have breakfast and like like talk about philosophy which is just like unreal they're

not people you're having your own kind of like seneca experience well i wrote i wrote a new york times piece about that because i actually got offered a uh a press secretary position for one of the cabinet members i didn't know that i'll send send it to you. And I surprised myself by even thinking about it. I mean, this is in early to late 2016. There's a moment where it seemed a little less crazy than it does now. But anyways, I was so I'm there talking philosophy to these guys. And, and, you know, they, they, they pointed, I was like, why aren't people stopping this you know like it seems so obvious and and one of them said like um see that guy over there you know if he hadn't said what he said about trump trump probably would have named him like i don't know head of the cia or something

like that and so to them the lesson was like you know, by criticizing or depriving yourself of a position to affect the change you've worked for your whole life, the principles you honestly believe in, or maybe just to stop Trump from doing something stupid, right? But to me, the philosophical, and I think that's what Seneca tells himself working for Nero. If I'm not Nero's tutor, he's not going to have one, right? If I'm not advising him, he'll do even worse things. But the problem is, it's like, do you actually want to be director of the CIA for this administration? Are you actually doing it? Like, is that what you worked your whole life to get? And when you have that position, are you actually going to follow your moral compass or is there going to be another compromise that's going to compel you to pull a party line that's at odds with your true nature?

Yeah. And so it's like, so Seneca writes all this stuff about philosophy and then he ends up having to help Nero justify why he tried to have his mother assassinated. You're just like, that's how quickly it escalates. And rationalizing it. And rationalizing it. And rationalizing it. And yeah, like I don't, and he only realizes too late what he's got himself into. And he tries, he basically,

and this is where it's really insidious, is Nero is just piling money on top of Seneca. Like Seneca becomes like the second richest man in Rome. And so obviously that was interesting and fun. And he talks about it philosophically, but you're just like, he, he at some point Seneca goes like, Oh, this is bad. Like, what have I gotten myself into? I got to get out of here. And he goes to Nero and he says, I want out.

And it's sort of like a blood in, blood out situation. He's like, you don't get to leave. What the fuck are you talking about? Like the mafia. Yeah, and then Seneca goes, I'll give you all the money back. And Nero says, no, no, no, no, no. And he's like, I'll let you partially retire. And so Seneca gets that.

And then Nero goes, I don't like Seneca anymore. And he executes him, basically. And so Seneca realizes too little, too late. This is probably when he's writing some of these essays, like the essay that opens the book. I think he realizes, he never comes out and says it, but I think he realizes that it was a Faustian bargain and that he sold his soul to the devil. Classic Faustian.

Yes. Like textbook. Yes. You know. Yes. And then we see this playing out in real time. Yeah. I mean, like I have so much respect for someone like General Mattis.

And it's so admirable that he resigned on principle over, we don't really know what it was, but he basically resigned over principle and it shocks Trump, right? Like, but at the same time, maybe the real principle is like, no, you know, like how many, how, how, how much did the idea that people like James Mattis were going to be in the administration allow other people to rationalize voting for it, supporting it, not doing some of the things we're doing now earlier, right? So it's like it's one man's valiant sacrifice

is by another definition complicity. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Super interesting. And these are timeless ethical quandaries. Right, yeah. I mean, that's why it comes up time and time again. And what is ancient is modern. Aristotle is Alexander the Great's philosophy instructor.

Do you know what I mean? Like we tend to think that all these things were clean but like it's so complicated confucius was it was not just a philosopher he worked for these princes and kings like these that that studying the eastern stuff you realize these people were much more of the world than they seemed and sometimes they did horrible things i mean buddha had a wife and child that he walked out on, which I found very hard to square. And the issues with Leonardo da Vinci and his dad and how he's just trying to find these benefactors.

And it's like, you just, because you don't think of him as a human being. Yes, right. Yeah, I've related to that so much. In many ways. Yes. Well, let's talk about the body section. You've pulled this hat trick again,

which you've done a number of times, which is essentially you're kind of writing a self-help book without writing a self-help book. You never kind of come out and give any prescriptive advice. I would say this section is the most prescriptive of anything you've ever written. You're kind of like out and give any prescriptive advice. I would say this section is the most prescriptive of anything you've ever written. You're kind of like, look, you should journal. Like, look at these other, you list like 20 people in a row, all these amazing people. Look, they journal every day. Like, go on walks. Like, you know, take this time, like sleep. Like,

this is very, this is back to like practicality. Yeah. Well, it's it's hard to go like do this thing with your mind because that's not how the mind works but you can go like go for a walk here are the benefits of walking or you can say like here are the costs of sleeping like i can even though i wasn't there if you're the area area hannah huffington tells a story of like brushing her teeth in the bathroom basically and passing out and her cheek hitting the bathtub on the way down. I can hear that noise. She told that story on the podcast. It makes me so uncomfortable. Do you know what I mean?

And the solutions are so basic. Yeah, go to sleep. Go to sleep, take a walk. Here's one question I have for you though. When I'm reading the take a walk section and you're naming all these people, I'm like, where's David Sedaris? And then you bring him up in the hobby section,

but I'm like, I wanted you to go deeper into his like garbage collection thing because like, that's like weird and I think obsessive compulsive on his part because like that's like weird and i think obsessive compulsive on his part because like he can't miss a day and he's he goes out and walks like 20 miles and he picks up every piece of garbage in his entire town he won like an award from i know the queen the queen gave him like a thing i started doing it you did yes i were i live on i spent a lot of time on the our farm is on this dirt road and like my neighbors are basically animals.

But I was like, you know, they're just like, oh, I'm finished with this. I'm going to throw it out the window. And it's not maintained by the city or the county. So if I don't do it and it's, I don't know, like it's actually wonderful. You picked up like a mattress the other day or something. I did pick up a mattress. Yeah. But like my son will now, he's two and a half,

he'll point out garbage and say, like, pick it up. So, to me, it's meaningful. And I'm already walking, and I don't know. It's like, instead of having a strong opinion about whether restaurants

should be allowed to have straws, like like why don't we just pick up trash when we see it yeah you know but it i just love i put it in the hobby section because it's a weird hobby yeah yeah yeah but i but the relationship between i thought about this a lot like what is the relationship between that practice and his creative inspiration because there's something about that low heart rate kind of activity that creates space for those little sparks. I think it's probably better for fiction than nonfiction.

Although his stories are sort of a mix of both. He goes out like all day. But I just mean like, I think it's about, yeah, slowing the mind down and then these funny things are popping up to you. I think my uneducated opinion is that maybe fiction is a little bit more like you do a lot of that and then you sit down and it pours out whereas like to me non-fiction is it's much more a construction of an argument so i think it's more it's do you know what i'm saying yeah i see what you're saying but

i don't i don't know if that so i think that's why he does it for six hours yeah well i think there's like a mental tweak there with him um i mean you could also you could have also put that in the routine section because that's very much his routine and yeah they're all related the writing is part of my routine it's what i do do before I do X, Y, and Z. And again, I think going for a long walk might get you 70% of what meditation gives you. Let's say the point of my book is like, okay, meditation is great. And let's say it's everything that we're told that it is. But for some reason, we're told that it is but for some reason

we're not doing it like the analogy you do you know ramit sethi is the personal i know he is yeah he's like look people don't keep budgets like you can write a budget but you won't keep it so i'm not going to tell you to do it but i am going to tell you to like set up these auto transfers in your bank account and then it takes that out of it so So my point is like, I could tell you to meditate and I know I should meditate, but I'm not gonna, I'm just knowing myself. So like I will take a walk and I'll 80-20 it, you know, I'll get a chunk of it.

The walk takes a lot longer. It does, it does. And you're willing to do that, but not meditate. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's interesting, right? Yeah, or swim, I mean, to me, swimming I mean, to me, swimming is the best one. There's something about swimming that's like a pipe cleaner for your mind. Well, I think it's immersive.

My theory is totally immersive. So it has a sensory deprivation component. I think there's something womb-like about swimming. Our bodies just respond to to on a prime level. No screens. You're looking down, so you're not really seeing anything. I think there's something about cold. Like I get much more out of swimming in a cold pool

than like when it's hot. And then there's something about the forcing yourself to do something that at first you don't want to do. Then there's, you know, then the endorphin. It's all of it. And I just think there's something magical about water. That like all cultures seem to have created fountains. Do you know what I mean?

Like there's Roman fountains and there's Buddhist fountains and there are, you know? So, yeah. So you're drawing like the calming effect of like seeing water move. But that's different from the immersion. Like I would agree with you. There's something that happens in swimming that I don't,

like running is amazing and it serves lots of these similar kind of, you know, agendas, but there's something distinct about swimming that's its own unique thing. Like Barton Springs where you and I swim in Austin, where I like to swim the most when I can, like for like 500 years, dating back at least basically till we did, that was a day, like Indians used to go there. Like we had, like Native Americans also saw it as a sacred place. Do you know what I mean?

And would swim in it and use it and be around it. And so it's like every culture has this strange relationship with water. Some spiritual, someone told me it's because we're mostly water. Maybe that's it. That there's some, you know what I mean? You should have put that in the spirit section of the book.

Yeah. On the routines thing, one of the things that I liked is that, you know, now we're in everybody wants to know everybody's morning routine and the whole, you know, it's like, oh, if I just do exactly what Stanley McChrystal does, then I'm going to, you know, be this person or whatever. what Stanley McChrystal does, then I'm gonna be this person or whatever. And you don't really kind of say it expressly, but the point is more, just have one. Like you show all these people, their routines are wildly different, but they have a routine and they're disciplined about it.

And what serves one person is gonna be different from what serves another. And it's about, look, if you can be still enough to then figure out like what is going to be the one for you and then adhere to that, like you don't need to get up at 4.30 and take a picture of your watch like Jocko Willink. And if you do, more power to you,

but that's not for everybody. Yeah, no, I'm actually, it's like, I think there's a danger in some of those like sort of books about routines because people think that it's like, in the same way they go, oh, 10,000 hours? Okay, just did one hour, just did another hour. It's not that.

It's like anything becomes sacred if you treat it right and you do it enough. And so it's not about what other people's routines are. It's about yours. And the thing I've learned since having kids, and the fact that I have a pretty rigorous travel schedule for my work is it's like, actually it's routines, plural. Like I have a travel routine,

I have the day the kids go to daycare routine, the day, the weekend routine, you know what I mean? And the ability to go like today i'm switching to this routine so that like it's there's a there's also an ego and then maybe this is why people think they can't have relationships is going like this is what i do every day you're getting in the way of the routine i gotta i gotta stick with that thing it's me the ability to go like sometimes i do this sometimes i do this but it's like when it's like if a then b if b then c you know like having having different routines i can sort of

effortlessly choose based on circumstances not only it allows me to be less rigid and less existentially anxious if if the conditions are not perfect. Yeah, because we live in the world. And that rigidity is going to create all kinds of anxiety and issues because life has a way of intervening. It's like no matter how well-intentioned you are and how many boundaries you erect to protect whatever routine you have, stuff happens, man.

And if you're going to freak out and your whole life is going to turn upside down because you didn't get to do the one thing right in your journal or whatever, then that's it. Cross-purposes with the entire intention behind the whole thing. Yeah. I'd be constantly trying to get in Russell Westbrook's head and mess up his routine. Do you know what I mean? I'd be like, what could you do to get inside that loop in that guy's head? Right. Because then it's a in that guy's head? Right. Because then it's a house of cards. Yes. Right.

Yeah. So I want to round this out. Okay. And end it in a minute. But I want to do that by talking about service, which kind of brings it back to the 12 steps, right? Yes. The underrated little one step, divinely inspired. Yeah. My primary purpose is to stay sober and help another alcoholic. Like my job is to be of service. And the more that I can inject, not just in that formal construct, but everything that I

do, if I can, if I can come from a service perspective and enter situations from a position of what can I contribute and how can I enhance somebody else's life rather than like, what am I going to extract out of this to benefit myself? Sure, sure. My life goes better, you know? And that's something that you explore in the book as well. Like how can we be, like part of this whole equation of being still

is about giving. Yeah, and one way to think less about yourself is just to like think more about other people. You know what I mean? Because self-obsession is the enemy of stillness, right? And the path out of self-obsession is to avail yourself to another. Yes.

Did you read the new David Brooks book, The Second Mountain? No, not yet. It's really good. I've listened to some interviews with him recently though, and it's pretty fascinating. Yeah, I think that it's like, oh, because what happens is you climb the first mountain,

which is success, getting what you want, and you realize it's nice, but it's not actually what you want. What you want is connection and to be a value to people and to be a part of a community and to do things that matter, you know? And I think people think you have to do this on this grand scale, but it's, you know,

maybe it's just like, I don't know, being like a dad's my number one priority. Or so like, I think just getting out of your own head a little bit and getting, not making your ambition the primary driving force in your life. Being a little bit more like Fred Rogers. Yeah, what a human being, right?

Like maybe you should be a saint. I wonder if that'll, I wonder if 500 years from now when we have a little distance, that can happen. It would be cool. I guess it wasn't catholic so maybe you can't do well a different kind of saint perhaps i mean certainly a secular certainly somebody who's who carried a very high consciousness yes yes i never thought about the the flashing yellow light yeah explain that a little bit well if you watch Mr. Rogers, you,

people remember the singing, they remember the sweatshirt or the sweater and the shoes and the train. But the first thing that you see when the show starts is actually a flashing yellow traffic light, not like a yellow light, like it's about to turn red. It's the warning, like railroad tracks ahead,

be careful, slow down, hazardous road. And that's like a powerful symbol. And then when you think about what the show is, the show is all about slowing down. His tone is slow. So deliberately slow. Yes, almost uncomfortably slow. And then you realize it's like, oh,

because I'm not the audience. The audience is a child who's never heard any of these basic things before. And there's a scene he talks about where he's like, the first time I turned on a television, I didn't know what it was. And there were these people throwing pies at each other. You know, he's like, they were throwing pies at each other.

It's like magical technology and we were using it to do that. And I think his point was like, what if we use this to give the world more of what it needs, not more of what it doesn't need. And that was his mission. You know, no one gets into children's television. Well, I guess some people do now in Nickelodeon or whatever, but no one gets into children's public access television to get rich.

Right. And that's something I talk to authors about a lot. It's like if you're – because people go, I'd like you to write a book with me or write a book for me or market my book. And I go, like, what are your goals? What are you trying to do? They're like, you know, my number one goal is to be a north times bestseller number of goals sell two million copies whenever i hear a number of copies that people want to sell i'm like nope goodbye but no mention of the idea that they want to birth into the world yes but which

is problematic in and of itself but i go like if your thing is to make money, you already fucked up. Like this is the worst way to make money. Like this is the worst way. But, you know, it's like you're selling something that takes, you're selling something to people that they actively don't want, which is reading. Do you know what I mean? And so, or that only appeals to like a small fraction of humanity.

I'm not saying books don't have enormous impact and haven't changed the world. I mean, clearly I believe that. That's true in my own experience. But it is such an ego trigger. Like I wrote a book and that book is in a bookstore. So I must be important. Yeah, or that I want a seven figure advance or whatever.

So I gave this talk to the to some people of the naval command uh last month in dc and and i was talking about this too i was like if you're but it's like clearly you didn't choose the navy to get rich and to be famous and yet we make decisions it's like, but this command is more high profile. Or, you know, like this one comes with a cooler car. And it's like, so you made a very clear statement, consciously or unconsciously, about your intention and your priority when you chose this thing. You know? So why are, you know, you chose classical music.

Why are you mad that you don't have 20 million Instagram followers? You chose a niche. So like be consistent about it. And your lack of consistency is what's causing your spiritual angst. Yeah. I mean, it goes back to the complexity of being human, right? We're still compelled by those base desires for power, money, status. Well, and we're comparing ourselves to other people always,

which is like the thief of joy, as Theodore Roosevelt said. Yeah, it's like, oh, okay. I just have to remind myself of that. I'm not saying you can't make money writing books, but clearly that's not what's the most important thing to me. Or I would be writing screenplays or I'd be writing advertising copy, you know, or, you know, I would not be writing at all

because this is not, I'd be making, you know, I'd be a vlogger. There's so many other things you could do. It's like, I chose writing because actually I didn't choose writing. Writing chose me. what i do that's you know and the other job that would be perfectly suited for you just doesn't exist in our era which is the idea of the philosopher who is consultant to the leader yes yeah sure how do we get back to that yeah i mean we could use a few of those yes yeah it would be it would be relie, it would be a relief to know there were some even conflicted,

hypocritical philosophers in Trump's court. But there are not. You know what I mean? It's the team of vipers instead. But, yeah, I do like that. I would like that. That would be cool. Especially because it's like, you know, maximum influence, minimum, minimal

inconvenience and an utter lack of accountability. But I, yeah, look, it's like I write, I just remind myself, it's like, I write these books because I think I have something to say and that, and that, look, I go, I write the books about the things that I write and I think I have something to say and that and and that look I go I write the books about the things that I write and I think they're important um I'm I'm not Mark Manson is on a different path and a different calling and I'm not denigrating his thing at all I'm just saying like we each have a lane and you know look some people are linebackers and some people are quarterbacks and some people are you know distance runners and some are sprinters like you know there's a biological component there's a you know a training component there's a personality component and you you go like this is

the stoics you know the the roman world was very strict in its hierarchy so you know there there's downsides to that, which is that, like they said, there's a slave hierarchy. But there was also this comfort in the idea of like, Marcus Aurelius didn't want to be emperor. Not really. You know, he would have rather been a bookworm. But he's like, that's what happened.

And so I have to do my best to do the best at that. But you as a writer, I mean, you're a living example of somebody who is in love with the process because you don't turn out books of your caliber year after year. I mean, you come out with a book every year. As soon as you finish, you're into the next one, the note cards are out. And like you're, like you're, you, there's nothing harder than writing. It's a, it's torturous and it's painful and you have a practice and a diligence about it because you love doing it. Like you love the process of, of grappling with these ideas and trying to put together

these thoughts in a, in a, in a cohesive narrative. Yeah. And, but so my output is either a sign that it's everything of that things are very right or that things are very wrong and i think it's both a year goes by and you don't put a book out then what what does that say about who you are yeah why can't i enjoy it why do i have to like yeah writing a book also sucks your dad can say well that's why i'm struggling with it man i'm trying to get to the bottom of it all right yeah so uh let's let's leave everyone with a couple just key things about stillness. Like if someone is listening to this, they're going to pick up the book, they're going to read it. But like,

what are the core concepts that you want somebody to walk away with after reading this book? Well, first, just this idea that stillness is really important, that stillness is where we feel happiness, where we feel contentment, where our best work comes from, where we make good decisions, where we're at peace. Do you know what I mean? habits and practices and set priorities that make it less of an accident and more of an intentional outcome. I'm not saying it's like, oh, this is good. Like, you know, stillness is good for your work, so go get more stillness.

But it's like, why are these wonderful moments so rare? And it's not about going on a Vipassana meditation retreat or pulling a geographic or doing anything extreme. It's about building habits that create more of these moments in your daily life. Yes, and having a set of people you admire who achieved it that you look to. And yes, some of the habits, I mean, yeah, it's setting a routine. It's being active. It's actively experiencing nature in some way.

One of my favorite exercises from the Stoics is in the most beautiful lines from the Stoics. It's not Marcus Aurelius describing the Colossus of Rhodes or the aqueducts or the Colosseum. It's Marcus Aurelius writing about the way a stalk of grain is bending under its own weight or the sound that plucking a grape makes. He's talking about the furrowed brow of a lion. And so he would have seen that in the horrible carnage of the Coliseum. Do you know what I mean? But what he's, he's spotting, he's actively looking for beauty amidst what would have been a violent, disgusting, you know, dark place. Right.

And so actively doing that. You know, it's not like, oh, look at that pretty sunset. It should be like, look at the lines on this table. Finding it in the ordinary. And that's being present. Of course. I think of people that embody this quality as being like a lighthouse. When somebody who exudes stillness or is a living example of this walks into a room, like you know it, you feel it. And you're like, what is it about that person? Because they're standing in their strength and their power.

And they're like a magnet that everyone is drawn to. more prone to be chasing attention from other people, like we're running after it, rather than gathering our strength and our resources so that we can stand in it and attract what we want into our life rather than chasing it. Well, and that's why the cover was really hard to crack on this book. And it's a sun, because I think it radiates out. And I wanted it to be something masculine, because I felt like it's like you can imagine so you write this book and they give you all the template covers they want the font is gonna be like but it's like you know it's like some stones tack stacked on top of each other

it's a crystal it's a it's a a stone dropping into some water you you know, or it's like a statue of Buddha. It's like, there's like 10 like sort of Zen images and they all tend to be pretty feminine. Not that there's a problem with that, but I do think it signals to people, to a large percent of the other population that this is not for them. And in fact, it's like them who needs it most. Right. And yeah, there's a Marcus quote. He's talking more about honesty, but he says like, you will know the honest and good person because they are like a smelly goat in the room. He's like, you know when they're in the room with you.

And I think that's true. Even if you were in an airport and the Dalai Lama walked in in street clothes, I think you would know. I think you'd know if you saw Jesus. I think you'd know if you saw... I think Socrates was at your neighbor's house. You'd feel it. And who would be a modern current living example of that? I mean, this is a bad one. Who's like in the world in a way. This is a bad one because it's political. And I think I could say this even if you despise every one of his policies, but I think Obama has that.

I think he was – and he talks about this. He's like, I think it was because my mother was pregnant with me in Hawaii, and she would just sort of sit on the beach and look at the ocean while he was in the womb. He just had – he was unflappable. And you think about the shit that got thrown at him, it almost makes it more impressive. Even if you hate him, you're like, why did we never get to him? So I think he's a pretty great example.

Yeah, I would agree with that. I mean, I think- Thich Nhat Hanh is alive, so he has it. The Dalai Lama has it. Yeah, I'm thinking of people who are in the culture. I think Sam Harris is a pretty good example of that as somebody who- Although when he gets like, he's- Gets into an argument.

Yeah, and he'll admit, he'll admit when he falls prey to that, but in general, he's able to maintain a level of equanimity under duress in a way that I think is interesting. Yeah, I think so. I think there that I think is interesting. Yeah, I think so. I think there's some athletes that have it in fleeting moments, we see it. But it's one of those things where it's like you know it when you see it. Yeah, it's an intangible thing. Yeah, right.

And maybe trying to describe it. And when you see it, you're like, I want to be near that person. Yeah. Yeah, or you're walking along the ocean at night or you walk out on a street after the snow has fallen and you're the first one. You're just like, this, this is it, you know? But then we're like the people watching the artist is present. Then we're like, but that's my phone, you know? Or, oh, you know what?

Like, let's go skiing tomorrow, you know? Or I should take a photo of this, you know? It's tough being human, man. It is, it is tough. Like my wife, I remember my wife was like, do you want to go in the pool? And I was like, yeah. So we went in the pool and I was like, do you want to do laps?

And she was like, we can just be in the pool. And I was like, but that's hard. Right. I think that's it in a nutshell, right? Yeah. Is it not? Yes. Cool.

Well, let's put a pin in it. All right, man. Until next time. Yeah. I really do love this book. You did a great job. I think it's gonna help a lot of people. It's quite an accomplishment.

I love all your books, but I really think that this is like taking it to a new and exciting place for a lot of people. And I'm excited to see what happens with it. So Stillness is the Key comes out September 28th. October 1st. Oh, October 1st. Oh, October 1st. Okay.

Yeah. Excellent. And if people want to connect with Ryan, the best place to do that, ryanholiday.net. And sign up for your newsletter. You send out monthly reading recommendations. Yes. Or just Daily Stoic. Daily Stoic.com.

Dailystoic.com. Yes. Right. Excellent. And pick up the new book. Please. All right, man. Dailystoke.com. Dailystoke.com. Yes. Right. Excellent. And pick up the new book. Please. All right, man. Thanks for talking to me.

Come back and do it again. I will. All right. Peace. Wise beyond his years. He really is one of my favorite people. I really enjoyed that. I hope you guys got a lot out of that.

For even more on Ryan, please check out the show notes on the episode page at richroll.com and let him know directly how this one landed by sharing your thoughts with him on Twitter or on Instagram at Ryan Holiday. Also, don't forget to pick up a copy of his latest book, Stillness is the Key. I can't recommend it enough. If Ryan is brand new to you, please explore his entire canon of amazing books, and that should occupy you for the rest of the fall. If you're struggling with your diet, if you really are trying to master your plate once and for all, but feel like you lack skill in the kitchen, or the time, or the budget, please check out our Plant Power Meal Planner. I know it can help you. We devised it, this digital platform, with one goal in mind, to make healthy eating affordable,

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please take a moment to do that. It only takes a second. You can share the show on social media. Tell your friends about your favorite episodes. Subscribe to my YouTube channel, Spotify, Google Podcasts. And you can support us on Patreon at richroll.com forward slash donate. Mad appreciation for everybody who helped put on the show today. I do not do this alone.

Jason Camiolo for audio engineering, production, show notes, interstitial music. Blake Curtis and Margo Lubin for videoing the podcast and putting it up on YouTube, including clips that we share there as well. If you haven't checked out the YouTube version of the show, I really strongly suggest that you do that. The production value is insane. Jessica Miranda for graphics, Allie Rogers for her beautiful portraits, DK, David Kahn for advertiser relationships, and theme music by Annalema. Appreciate all of you. I love you. I will see you back here next week with psychiatrist, neuroscientist, and author Dr. Judd Brewer. He's coming by to discuss the neural mechanisms of mindfulness, which I think is a good bookend to this conversation with Ryan.

It's a really great conversation. You're not going to want to miss it. Here's a clip to take you out. And until then, be still. Peace. Plants. Namaste. You know, on a very basic level, we're probably all addicted to some degree or another.

And classically, we used to think of addictions, you know, as these substances like alcohol and cocaine and heroin and whatnot. But really, I think that's a little narrow of a view. If we look at this, it can be virtually anything that gets us into trouble. You know, we have everyday addictions where it's, you know, cell phones and technology and, you know, trying to get our inbox to zero and all these things that are failing propositions. You know, for the last 50 years, the dominant paradigm has been willpower. And that is proving to be more myth than muscle.

You know, it's more legend than reality. And that's exactly what I think we're seeing with meditation is if we get out of our own way, our brains naturally work better. And we can really start to totally get in sync with life and get into, you know, almost get into the flow of things. That's one thing I like about mindfulness practice is it basically distills down to pay attention, see what the results of your behavior are repeat Thank you.