The Rich Roll Podcast - San Quentin To Saved: Chris Schuhmacher’s Last Mile To Redemption

Episode Date: March 5, 2019

This is a story of mistakes made. Of penance served. And the hard wrought path to atonement, self-forgiveness, and ultimately redemption. It begins with a young, standout volleyball player. A smart guy who later joins the Air Force, spending nearly two years at the Defense Language Institute in Monterey, CA studying Korean. His career looked bright. But it wasn't long before Chris Schuhmacher started making some bad decisions. A laundry list of errant decisions, in fact, that deposited him into a dark, hard partying crowd in Hollywood. Decisions that led to dealing weed to support that lifestyle. And decisions that ultimately culminated in a suitcase of drugs under his dispatch being stolen from him. In a drug and alcohol fueled rage, desperate and fearing the consequences should he be unable to retrieve the contraband, Chris took another manʼs life. And for that offense he was sentenced to sixteen to life. Well aware that he might never see another day outside San Quentin, inmate number T31014 nonetheless committed to taking responsibility for his actions. Searching for spiritual purpose and meaning, he got sober — and stayed that way. He made amends for his crime, began running and earned a college degree. He even studied software engineering, developing a promising app called Fitness Monkey under the tutelage of The Last Mile, a non-profit program that trains incarcerated individuals for successful reentry, All told, Chris transformed himself into the kind of person he always knew he could be. Then came the impossible. In 2017, after serving 17 years, a parole board granted him his freedom.  Re-entry hasn't be easy for Chris. But he has emerged from the experience a better man. Now a productive member of society reunited with his family and gainfully employed, he is intent on sharing his cautionary tale in service of others. I had the privilege of hearing Chris speak at The Nantucket Project last year. In a time where prisons and prisoners are mostly forgotten, I was deeply moved by his story of change, rehabilitation and improvement from the lowest points. And I was compelled to use this platform to better understand both his humanity and the current state of our prison industrial complex. There is no “un-doing” what Chris did. There can be no sufficient apology for taking a life. And yet there are lessons to be gleaned –both profound and instructive — from his deep dive into self-examination. The support he leveraged to reinvent himself wholesale. And the innovations afoot that can better rehabilitate the current and future incarcerated among us. Indeed, this is a story of drugs, alcohol, addiction, betrayal, anger, and tragically, murder. It's about what currently ails our prison industrial complex. And it's about how society can do better. But at its core, this conversation is about atonement. It's about second chances. And it's about empathy. With that, I urge that you entertain Chris' testimony with an open mind and even more open heart. Peace + Plants, Rich

It was definitely a blur. You know, I want to take total responsibility for everything, but if you'd asked me that morning, was I going to wake up and kill somebody, there would have been no way. And I think initially I was trying to scare him, and more came out of me than even I knew was there. This is one of those things that no matter how many amends you make,

you can never take it back. There would be nothing that I would wish more than to be able to give Morgan his life back. That's Chris Schumacher. And this is the ritual podcast. The ritual podcast. The Rich Roll Podcast. Hey, everybody. How you guys doing?

What's happening? My name is Rich Roll. I am your friendly podcast host. Welcome to the show. Quick reminder up top, if you're struggling with your diet, if you are truly desiring of mastering your plate, but you feel like you lack the skill in the kitchen or the time or the culinary acumen you believe you require,

I can't stress enough how much I know for a fact our Plant Power Meal Planner can help you out. It truly is an extraordinary product. I'm so proud of. We worked very hard on to solve a very basic problem, making nutritious eating convenient and delicious. When you sign up at meals.richroll.com, you will get access immediately to thousands, literally thousands of delicious and easy to prepare plant-based recipes

thoroughly customized based on a battery of personal preferences that you input when you sign up. You also get unlimited grocery lists, grocery delivery in most metropolitan areas, and a team of crack nutrition coaches at the ready to guide you. And you get all of this for just $1.90 a week, literally a cup of coffee. So to learn more and to sign up, go to meals.richroll.com or click on Meal Planner on the top menu on my website today. Today's guest is a man I met through my friend, Tom Scott, who you may recall from the podcast, Episode 360, at the Nantucket Project last year. His name is Chris Schumacher, and his story is a story of mistakes made. In particular, one very profound, life-ending mistake. It's a story of penance served and really the long, hard, wrought path to atonement, to self-forgiveness, and ultimately redemption. It's a very human story. It's raw. It's messy,

perhaps controversial, but it's one I felt moved to tell. And it begins with a smart guy, a standout volleyball player, an Air Force veteran, a guy who spent nearly two years at the Defense Language Institute in Monterey, California, studying Korean. But along the way, Chris starts to make some bad decisions, a long line of errant decisions, in fact. Decisions that lead to a hard partying lifestyle in Los Angeles, decisions that led to dealing weed to support that lifestyle, and decisions that conspired, that ultimately culminated in one fateful day, wherein a suitcase of drugs he was dispatched to sell were stolen from him. And then in this drug and alcohol-fueled rage, really desperate, and I would imagine fearing of the consequences of what would happen

if he didn't retrieve this suitcase, Chris ends up taking another man's life. He's convicted of murder. He's sentenced to 16 to life. And he walks into prison having to navigate the gangs, the racial tensions, all the unwritten rules that are part and parcel of that lifestyle. All well knowing that as a lifer, there was a very good chance

that he was never gonna get out. Now, I'd like to preface this conversation by saying that there is a lot more to Chris's story. But of course, before we get into it, I have to warn that this is a tough one, not because it's graphic or because of the language, but because of the gravity, of course, of taking another human being's life.

It's not something to be minimized. It's very serious and not to be diminished. But Chris's journey is as instructive, I think, as it is profound. So my hope is that you will listen with an open mind. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety.

And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care, especially because unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices.

It's a real problem, a problem I'm now happy and proud to share has been solved by the people at recovery.com who created an online support portal designed to guide, to support, and empower you to find the ideal level of care tailored to your personal needs. They've partnered with the best global behavioral health providers to cover the full spectrum of behavioral health disorders,

including substance use disorders, depression, anxiety, eating disorders, gambling addictions, and more. Navigating their site is simple. Search by insurance coverage, location, treatment type, you name it. Plus, you can read reviews from former patients to help you

decide. Whether you're a busy exec, a parent of a struggling teen, or battling addiction yourself, I feel you. I empathize with you. I really do. And they have treatment options for you. Life in recovery is wonderful, and recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety.

And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. I've, in turn, helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care. Especially because, unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. It's a real problem. A problem I'm now happy and proud to share has been solved by the people at recovery.com who created an online support portal designed to guide, to support, and empower you to find the ideal level of care tailored to your personal needs. They've partnered with the best global behavioral health providers to cover the full spectrum

of behavioral health disorders, including substance use disorders, depression, anxiety, eating disorders, gambling addictions, and more. Navigating their site is simple. Search by insurance coverage, location, treatment type, you name it. Plus, you can read reviews from former patients to help you decide. Whether you're a busy exec, a parent of a struggling teen, or battling addiction yourself, I feel you. I empathize with you. I really do.

And they have treatment options for you. Life and recovery is wonderful, and recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. Okay, Chris Schumacher. So, one of the reasons that I felt compelled to have Chris share his story is to provide some nuance to the debacle that is our current criminal justice system.

Right now, there are somewhere around 2.3 million locked up in more than 6,000 correctional facilities across the United States. to 2010, the number of people in prison in the U.S. has increased 700%. 700%. 25% of the world's incarcerated population is in the United States. And in California, we spend more on prisons than we do on higher education. It costs about $47,000 to keep one prisoner in jail in California for a year. And more than 67% of the state prisoners released in 2005 were arrested within the next three years. So this isn't a great picture. There's a lot that's not correct about how we're doing all of this. So is there a better way to deal with people who commit acts of violence and how do we prevent them from committing them again? So look, crime, punishment, these are a part of life, sadly, even murder, but we do need to face these issues.

We need to prioritize, in my opinion, rehabilitation and innovate new solutions that promote it for a more effective result. And Chris is the product of this movement into innovative rehabilitation. You know, on the off chance that this guy would get a second chance while he was inside,

Chris committed to taking responsibility. He got sober, he got a college degree. He joined this amazing program called The Last Mile, which we're gonna talk about, where he learned programming, software engineering, and ultimately develops this app, this fitness app called Fitness Monkey. And then about two years ago, after serving 17 years, a parole board granted him his freedom. And he's now blazing his way into becoming a productive member of society. So like I mentioned up top, this one is intense.

We recorded it several months ago when I was visiting the Bay Area, so there's no video for this episode. And it's a story about drugs, alcohol, addiction. It's about betrayal, anger, and of course, tragically, murder. But it's also about atonement. It's about the path to redemption and his journey towards becoming this productive member of society. And so I think baked into that, it's really about empathy. So there's no undoing what Chris did, but I do think there is something profound and something instructive about how he leaned into self-examination, personal responsibility, faith, sobriety, fitness, and education to ultimately transform himself into being the kind of person that he always knew he could be. And so here we are, and this is his story.

All right, Chris, thank you so much for doing this today, man. It's a pleasure to reconnect with you after Nantucket Project. Yeah, great to be here, Rich. Thanks for having me. So we're taping this in a nondescript little business meeting conference room in a hotel in Palo Alto. I just flew up here this morning from Los Angeles. And for those of you that are listening, we're on day three of the Malibu Calabasas Inferno. And it looks like the firefighters are finally getting the upper hand on this

thing, but we're still displaced from our home. And it's been a pretty chaotic, insane past couple of days, lots of friends who lost their homes and not a lot of sleep on my part. So if my thoughts seem disjointed today, Chris is going to have to pick up the pieces and make this thing move, but I'm going to do the best I can. I've been looking forward to having this conversation for a while. I first met Chris at the Nantucket Project. Was that like two months ago or something like that? Through our mutual friend, Tom Scott.

Was very impacted by his message and felt strongly that I wanted to share it with all of you guys today. So thank you again for carving out the time. You have the day off. It's Veterans Day. Otherwise, you'd be at your job. Fandom. So what are you doing there?

What are your responsibilities? I'm working as a software engineer. I work on the website. We're currently working on a new community builder. And Fandom is like the Wikipedia for everything Marvel Super Heroes, Game of Thrones Netflix, anything people binge watch

we have a place where they can create communities around these shows and these video games we get over 200 million unique views on the site every month. There's over 400,000 communities. I mean, if you've ever heard of, like Star Wars has a huge community called Wookieepedia.

I didn't even know that. I mean, it's huge. And anything, RuneScape is big. Elder Scrolls, if your kids play any video games and look up anything online, I guarantee you they've been on one of Fandom's sites. Right. So is it like message boards, like Reddit for pop culture?

It's similar, but it also gives them a chance. It's more like a web page, and they can upload video content, images. They can share. There's chat features. And right now the project that we're working on is i mean we've been around since 2005 and the project we're working on is updating all the tools that people can use because so many things are going mobile now we want to make a more friendly intuitive mobile experience right and so you so you're a coder, right? You're a code monkey.

I am. It's awesome. You know, I've always been a math guy. I also had an aptitude for languages that I found while I was in the military. So shout out to all the veterans out there on Veterans Day. Yeah. You studied Korean, right?

I did while I was in the air force uh in monterey uh super tough uh but i found that with coding and you know i found coding inside prison right i was serving a 16 year to life sentence for murder uh and really decided early on to get clean and sober and to try to use every day that I was locked up inside there to try to better my situation, to make the most out of my time inside. And it wasn't until 2012 that a program called The Last Mile started an entrepreneurship class inside the walls of San Quentin. So it was a six-month class.

They taught us how to write business plans. They taught us to cultivate our own ideas about something that we were passionate about, something that involved technology, and something with a social cause. And for me, my passion was around staying clean and also working out, running, playing tennis, doing yoga. So that was what inspired Fitness Monkey. And I designed it to be an online life coaching platform that empowered addiction recovery through physical fitness. Right.

And that's why I was actually so impressed by your talk at the Nantucket Project, because I felt like you were one of my people. Definitely one of my people, you know? Definitely one of your people. I was spared the prison sentence, which we're going to get into in a minute. But I certainly share your passion for fitness and for recovery from drugs and alcohol and where those two coincide. And Fitness Monkey, you know, really is unique in that it bridges that gap. Like I have apps on my phone for recovery, and then I have fitness apps, but I don't have an app that combines the two of them and kind of is a platform for using fitness as a tool in sobriety. So it's super cool.

And are you in the app store yet? Because I looked for it. I couldn't find it. Not quite yet. We have a website, and the app is currently in development. I was working with Santa Clara University here, I think, in Palo Alto or right here in the South Bay. And they were assigning me grad students to help me build the mobile app. And so I would go down and I would meet with the students

and I would lay out the vision of how we're going to build this thing. And then two weeks later, one of them would get a job and I'd have to start all over again. So I think I've come to the conclusion that I'm going to have to build it myself. Thank you to The Last Mile, who for the last two and a half years while I was in San Quentin, learned how to code.

Yeah, now you know how to do it. And figure it out. And I think there's like a lot of empowerment in being able to build this thing myself. Right. But the development cycle is going to take a little bit longer. Maybe just a little. Yeah, right. It's going to be a very rough prototype.

Well, let's walk it back. I want to work our way towards this present moment. You have a pretty incredible story of redemption. It's remarkable that you're even sitting here today. And it's inspiring, man. It's inspiring how you took this, you know, bottom that you had and grabbed onto a lifeline with the help and support of others, like the last mile to really rebuild your life in an amazing way. So let's, let's tell that story from the beginning. Sure. So you grew up, you were raised by your grandparents initially,

right? I was adopted very early on by my grandparents. And so just paint the picture of your childhood for me a little bit. Sure. I was adopted by my grandparents. I grew up knowing my biological mother as my sister, and I just knew my grandparents as my mom and dad. And that's the way it's been my whole life. So even though biological relationships are still there, the roles that people played in my life are super important to me. They divorced when I was five, and I went to live with my mom, who was my grandmother. And it was just me and her growing up.

Grew up in Southern California. Had a pretty good home environment. Went to school. Wasn't super great at it. Didn't take it seriously i feel like i was uh one of those kids that had a lot of potential but uh kind of chose to do other things screw it off so much potential which is a blessing and a curse so i mean were you like class clown or just partier from day one or you you playing sports? I mean, what kind of kid?

Who was your crowd? Yeah, I was definitely a volleyball guy. Southern California fell in love with beach volleyball. Everything that Sinjin Smith and Randy Stoklos and all those guys were doing, that's what I saw that I wanted to do. And also right about the same time you know I think I got into drinking just like a lot of high school uh kids do uh and I thought it was normal you know I really

did uh the way I drank you know and at the time it just seemed like everybody was doing it like that and it really wasn't until later on on that I realized that I was probably going overboard. And there was a lot of consequences and a lot of like warning signs that I blew right past. Right. Was there a moment when you first realized like, hey, you know, my relationship with alcohol is a little bit different from my buddies? Like I know for me, I mean, I started a little bit later than you, but pretty early on, you know, I normalized the whole thing and just, you know, I was like, I'm just doing what every college kid does. But looking back on it now, I was like, oh yeah, I was always kind of like

the last guy to leave the party or the one who had the most embarrassing story, you know, that we would laugh about. It was no big deal at the time, but there were those clear DMARC, you know, that sort of, those, those like red flags were being raised pretty early. And it would be many, many years before I would take responsibility for that. But looking back, it was kind of like, yeah, from the beginning, it was a problem. I mean, was that for you or did it start off, you're just, you know, doing what everyone else is doing? I feel like it started off like I was just doing what everybody else was doing. I graduated high school. I started college. I didn't finish one unit. While I was there, I moved down to the beach to be closer to volleyball and to what I thought I wanted to do with my life.

But after dropping out of college, I kind of wandered for a while. Down to the beach like South Bay or where? San Clemente. I lived in San Clemente for a little while and then lived in Newport Beach for a while. And it turned out that maybe I kind of wanted to just hang out on the beach and party a lot more than I wanted to become a pro beach volleyball player. Yeah. Got a little bit sidetracked. So I had to get a job.

Went to work for a while. What's grandma doing around now? Around that time? Is she like, hey, man, wake up? Or is she just letting you, you know, do your thing? You know, I wasn't living at home. So, uh, I don't think she, she didn't know, had a full grasp of what was going on. She was always supportive. She was always, um, there for me when I needed her. And, you know, if I think that if I just kept drinking, you know, I don't

think I would have got as in much trouble as I did, but it was actually when I started using, you know, drugs. For me, it started with pot, mushrooms. And then some guys at work introduced me to speed, which I thought was cocaine at the time. You know, everybody was kind of doing it. No, I mean, i wouldn't say that but they were doing it and they were the older guys and uh they thought it was cool so i i tried it and thought it was cool it was math yeah snorting it or smoking it snorting it yeah yeah um you know which which is just as bad right uh and the crazy thing about that drug is you think you're doing great for a while and you're on top of the world and, you know, six, seven months down the road,

everything's falling apart. And I had that happen in my life two or three times where I felt like the most powerful and productive person on the planet. And then next thing I know, I don't have a place to live, I don't have a job, and I'm moving back home. I know I don't have a place to live. I don't have a job. And I'm moving back home.

And that's where mom kind of stepped in and said, hey, what's going on? You've got to find some direction for your life. And during that time, I decided to enlist in the military. I figured I needed a job. I needed some training. I thought it would maybe be a chance to see the world they offered me a linguist you know job or i could learn a foreign language and that sounded like a pretty good deal uh went to basic training in san antonio made it through that uh went to monterey and was doing

great in my classes and then started drinking again right so you were off the meth during that period of time i would imagine yes yeah still still drinking though or do you cut everything out for a period of time you know during basic training there was there wasn't any drinking or smoking or anything like that but uh once we got on base there in monterey it was almost like a college dorm setting right uh and everybody was away from home everybody was kind of looking to click up socially and drinking is is very prevalent in the military yeah so you pick it back up and then what happens next uh for me it was i would call them small things you know things like uh having too

many beers in my barracks uh that was a an infraction. Drunken disorderly with some Marines. That was an infraction. Breaking curfew to spend the night in my girlfriend's barracks who was in the army at the time. That was an infraction. And all these little things kind of added up to an early discharge. But along the way, are those sort of like points, the social camaraderie with the dudes that you're hanging out with? Like, right on, dude. You not know? I don't think so.

I mean, you're getting in trouble, but it wasn't like, oh, man, you tore it up last night. Maybe, but I mean, that's all false. I mean, that's not real. Of course, of course. Like people, hey, you know, you party harder than anybody else did last night. And then what do you have to show for it? Right.

You know, an embarrassing story, discharged from the military, hangovers. I mean, what's the best part about sobriety? Never waking up with that damn headache again. One of the many great things. All right. So you get discharged what year was that that was 90 1995 uh-huh uh moved back home for a while started working again you know trying you know i have lots of stories of of starting over and uh trying to pick myself up from the

bootstraps uh went to work in some restaurants for a while. But then once I started getting back on my feet and starting to do all right, then the drinking started again. And I wasn't in the military anymore, so I didn't have to worry about drug tests. So, you know, I started using again. Found myself in Hollywood with these big visions of becoming a rock star. I love to play guitar. And I think all of these big visions of grandeur were like I didn't really know what direction I wanted to take in my life, so I set these big, huge goals. So it really didn't matter if I made it or failed. It's like at least I tried to be a rock star.

But I think that at the same time, they were also aligning myself with what I really wanted to do was to drink and to use. Right. And avoid responsibility. Right. Because if you're a rock star, then you can do whatever you want. And everyone co-signs it. Right.

I mean, the whole sex, drugs, and rock and roll. I mean, it just seemed like the lifestyle. And I was already leading that lifestyle except, you know, I wasn't a musician yet. Right. Did you have a band? I mean, were you guys playing out or rehearsing at all? We had one band. There was four of us, and we had four white guys in a reggae band, and we called ourselves the Naughty Dreads.

No one hits, no wonders. Yeah. A lot of dope smoking. And living like in Hollywood, like around Sunset, or where exactly? Living right off Hollywood Boulevard. Yeah. Right around the corner from the Manchinese. Right in the middle of it, man.

Yeah. So that was what, 95, 96? That was around 99. Oh, 99. 98, 99, to hollywood uh-huh and where are you hanging out like what are the bars you're going to you know a lot of the ones uh on the strip you know the the whiskey the roxy um one of our favorite places was called insomnia uh and that's where you could go take ecstasy it didn't open up till midnight and didn't close till 9 a.m in the morning uh it was speakers that were seven feet tall and there was a lot of crazy nights yeah living the dream oh yeah right so where does uh you know where does it start to turn super dark for you yeah i mean that lifestyle is is it wasn't

sustainable uh for me you know i was working at a restaurant uh ended up getting fired from that job i wasn't really quite sure what to do and a friend asked me if i wanted to start selling some weed and i'm thinking you know buy an ounce of weed sell it make a couple hundred bucks you know maybe maybe this is is my way to uh keep living this lifestyle and it was actually pretty pretty lucrative for the first few months. And I was actually starting to get more customers. I was kind of starting to make more money. And I really thought maybe this was the career path for me.

Maybe I wasn't going to be a volleyball player or a musician or a rock star, but for some reason, a drug dealer seemed very appealing at the time. And I remember as I was moving up the food chain in the drug world, my dealer asked me to store a six-pound suitcase full of marijuana for him. And I thought, great, now I have unlimited supply. I can start recruiting my friends to start selling for me. And I thought that this was a viable plan. And that was until the two friends that I had told about it decided they were going to steal it from me. Jeff stole the suitcase from my apartment, from me, and took off with it. And Morgan, his roommate, stuck around and tried to tell me that he was convincing me that he wasn't in on it

and that he would help me find Jeff and get the weed back. So how does this unfold? Like you come back to your apartment, you look for it, can't find it. Is that guy there or do you call him up? Like how does it go step by step? You know, it was the craziest story. I mean, these guys would come over and hang out and have a couple beers and smoke a couple joints. And it was a weekday morning.

It was about 10 a.m. And all of a sudden I get a knock on my door and it's these two guys. And usually they have a day job. They have a moving van job or something like that and it just seemed odd to me that uh they were there but they had a 12 pack of beer and uh that was the lifestyle that I was living at the time so I said screw it and invited him in uh and during that time Morgan and I had stepped out to have a cigarette on the roof. And while we're on the roof of my building looking over the side, I see Jeff running through the park with the suitcase from my closet.

And from that moment, I mean, it was like every scene from a bad movie that I've ever seen, me interrogating Morgan, me calling everyone that Jeff knew to try to find him and get this weed back. You know, it was an extremely stressful situation. Did you immediately assume that Morgan was in on it? Or did you think he was innocent and Jeff had just pulled a one-er and took off with it spontaneously? Or did they plan this whole thing and that was the whole reason they were coming over? Right from the beginning, I thought Morgan was in on it.

But I was also giving him the benefit of the doubt you know i didn't absolutely know and he was my only link to uh jeff uh so i thought keep him as close as possible you know during this time and and see see what happens uh i also had to tell mark my drug dealer that i had lost the six pounds of weed that he had trusted me with. And what are the stakes there? You know, the crazy part is it probably wasn't more than 10 grand. You know, $10,000. I look back now and think how stupid.

But in the middle of it, I mean, I think there was more than money involved. There was reputation. There was ego. There was feeling betrayed by people that I trusted. You know, there was a lot going on inside that situation. Right. All right. So, you know, what happens next really changes the trajectory of your life forever.

So walk me through it. Yeah. so walk me through it yeah morgan had been uh staying with me over those four or five days while we look for jeff uh at the end of four days uh my girlfriend angela who i'd been living with uh was on vacation with her family she was scheduled to come back so i told morgan that he was going to have to take off you know that that's when things changed that's when he said he really didn't have anywhere else to go. He told me that he was actually in on it with Jeff, but he didn't realize how much trouble I would be in. Or, you know, kind of like the situation that it was going to cause me and that he was in on it and that he was sorry.

And I was stunned. You know, it was like what I already knew to be true was actually being confirmed. And I just sat with it like I didn't know what to do. I had no idea, you know, what to do. I talked to Mark, my drug dealer, about it, and he basically made it seem like it was my problem to solve. And in that moment, I did what I always did. I drank. I used. I always did. I drank. I used.

I got high. Later on that night, a friend of mine came over to sell me some more weed so I could sell that. And he suggested that we start interrogating Morgan to figure out what he really knew. You know, if he was just copping to this, what else did he know? know. And in that interrogation process, it went from asking questions to getting angrier to verbally abusing Morgan to the point where I was actually physically abusing him, I was hitting him, I was berating him. I mean, all of this like anger and rage and violence and frustration was pouring out of me. And more than I even knew was there. And during that night, I went in my kitchen and I grabbed a knife from my butcher block

and I stabbed Morgan in the chest. Was there a particular inciting incident that he, like he said something or the altercation kind of tipped into a new gear that prompted you to escalate it to that level? Or were you just like high and out of your mind? You know, I don't, other than the fact that he had actually admitted to being in on it. I mean, it was like when I knew for sure that this person that I was still trying to trust,

that uh this person that that i was still trying to trust uh still trying to to use you know to find jeff uh had basically told me that you know i screwed you from the beginning uh and that was that was the turning point for me uh and when the floodgates opened with with with the questions and you know the first punch was was the same punch that led to the knife. And was there an intention to, like, what, you know, were you like, I'm going to kill this guy or I'm just going to scare him or I'm going to just injure him? Or was it just a blur? It was definitely a blur. You know, I want to take, want to take total responsibility for everything, but if you had asked me that morning,

was I going to wake up and kill somebody, there would have been no way. And I think initially I was trying to scare him. More came out of me than even I knew was there. So you just go after him, and how many times did you stab him? One time in the chest. One time, that was it. And did you know that was a fatal blow right away?

Pretty quickly. Yeah. So what'd you do? The next steps were really a blur, you know, because if you think like all the steps that were leading up to it got me to that point. What do you do now that there's a dead body in your apartment? My friend and I tried to wrap him in a blanket,

tried to put the body by the dumpster that was in front of my apartment building. It was, I thought it was the middle of the night turned out it to be it was like 6 a.m in the morning the sun was coming up there was people on the street that saw the whole thing i mean it was it was horrible yeah um you know there's a lot of shame around around the the harm impact that I caused to Morgan and to his family and my community too, right? Like Hollywood, I mean, I'm sure it's known for some pretty crazy shit, but for me to be responsible for that piece of it, that's something I still carry with me. it. That's something I still carry with me. So when you recount the story, you know, you're,

you've told the story many, many times. What are the emotions that come up now? I mean, still some shame, obviously. You know, it's, it's one of those, this is one of those things that, you know, no matter how many amends you make, you can never take it back. Like there would be nothing that I would wish more than to be able to give Morgan his life back, to give his daughter, her dad back, to give his aunt or her nephew back. And that's something I'm never going to be able to do. I mean, it's, there, there is guilt. There is shame there. There's, there there is guilt there is shame there there's um it's been something that i've had to work through and you've if you attempted to make direct amends like communicate with his family

directly yeah so there's actually rules against that laws against that uh you're not supposed to make direct contact uh with the family uh while i inside San Quentin, I was able to write letters of apology and letters of remorse to his family and then file them with the Office of Victim Services in California. And they stay on record there, so if the family ever wants to receive them, they can. And part of that was not seeking forgiveness. It was just being genuinely sorry for the pain and the harm that I caused. You know, sometimes I feel like when people say, Oh, you know, wouldn't it be nice to be forgiven? It's like you're asking for something else from the family members, right? Like I've already taken so much away. Now, can you forgive me too? You know, and I really

wanted it to be more of something that I could offer them. And so in that letter, I said, like, if you ever have any questions or if there's any further explanation that I can give, you know, I would always make myself available to them. But they haven't reached out to you. No. And are you notified if they actually pick those letters up? I'm not sure if I would be notified. I doubt it, just the way things work in California. With the life sentence, I had to go to a parole board

before being granted suitable for release. At the first one, I was denied three years and I wasn't found suitable until the second one. But at both of those hearings, the district attorney contacts the family and invites them to, they can attend the hearing and they can also make statements as to how it impacted them and whether or not I should be released. At neither of my hearings did Morgan's family show up. And what became of Jeff? I found this out later on, and I think it's mostly true.

He testified in court during my legal proceedings that he got on a Greyhound bus to Las Vegas with the suitcase full of weed. They got almost all the way there and then got pulled over. Police stepped on, you know, I guess they asked everybody to get off the Greyhound bus. The police went on with dogs, grabbed the suitcase, confiscated it, and no charges were pressed. No charges? No charges. Why would that be?

I don't know if they could tie it to him being where it was at on the bus or they were just, I'm sure that the suitcase that size full of weed has a certain odor to it so yeah and it wasn't legal back then like it is now so it wasn't what it was a random search or was there a bolo out on this guy because you had been arrested i'm not sure i don't know yeah i'm not sure i mean all they would have to do is dust it for prince right guys prince would be all over the thing. I don't even know that.

You're nodding, yeah. This story is, you know, if I didn't go through it, I wouldn't have believed it myself. Wow. So how long is it before you're apprehended? I was arrested the same day immediately yeah yeah i mean there was too many people on the street they were the police were called uh within an hour there was there was helicopters uh over my apartment building

you know i was arrested and detained immediately you know drunk high handcuffed in the back of a police car. And what was the interrogation process like? I mean, did you keep your mouth shut? Did you cop to it? I kept my mouth shut. You know, it was, it wasn't until 15 months, you know, going through the arraignment process and talking to an attorney, trying to figure out what the best next move would be. It wasn't that I didn't know I was guilty. It's just I didn't feel like I knew how to, had all the answers in that situation. You know, I was talking to my family, I was talking to an attorney. And in the end, I decided that the best move for me was to plead guilty and to accept a plea bargain for 16 years to life, which was incredibly tough

because at the time, Gray Davis was the governor in California, and he said, if you take somebody's life, you're never getting out of prison. And back then, it didn't matter if you had 15 to life, 25 to life, 100 to life, you weren't going home. But that was also a moment when I knew I had to take ownership of this thing. And regardless of the circumstances, I was going to try to become somebody different. So you had that awareness from the beginning? going to try to become somebody different. So you had that awareness from the beginning?

You know, from the moment that I took Morgan's life, that was my turning point. That was the moment where I realized there was no more rationalization. There was no more normalizing where drugs and alcohol had gotten me to in my life. You know, I was able to justify just about anything, but not that. Yeah. And what is the, you know, emotional experience of digesting the possibility that you may never get out of prison? You know, I think there's a lot of sadness and there's a lot of fear. I didn't want to go to prison, you know. If I could have found a way out of it, I would have taken it, you know,

and that's who I was back then, you know, selfish, self-centered. Didn't want to take accountability. Didn't want to, you know, selfish, self-centered, didn't want to take accountability, didn't want to, you know, believe that I was that person. And if there was any way out of it, you know, I would have taken it. But the moment that I actually did say, like, I'm going to accept this, I'm going to plead guilty, you know, it actually freed me in a lot of ways to move forward. Because you were just aligning yourself with the truth, like there's no more hiding from this reality? Yeah, exactly. I mean, that's what it was for me. You know, I didn't even know how to be real and honest about what had actually happened, and you didn't talk to a whole lot of people about it during that time.

But just the act of kind of resigning myself to whatever fate lay ahead, I realized that there was a chance that I would never get out of prison. However, I think one of my superpowers is optimism, and I gave myself hope along with, a hope along with, with, with the hope that, that I got through spirituality and God, that there would be a chance for me. If I did everything in my power, at least I would have a chance. And I kind of used that to, to propel me forward. Right. So ultimately you end up in San Quentin, but that's not where you were initially. No.

San Quentin has a notorious reputation, but it's a level two prison now. Level two being kind of the middle of the road prisons and level four being the most violent and lockdowns and a lot of racism and a lot of craziness going on. And when you're a young guy and you have a lot of years to do, that's where you start. And for being a white kid from the suburbs, going to prison for the first time on a level four yard was a pretty scary experience. So explain it to me.

My only frame of reference is you know what I see in movies and TV. So what is the reality of being dropped down into that environment where it's about, you know, racial identity and gangs and alliances and survival? Yeah, I mean, I think I've seen all the prison movies, right, before going in. But I don't think I understood how racially segregated prisons are. So when I went in, I was expected only to hang out with the white guys. There was actually politics saying, you know, you don't eat with anybody from another race, you don't play games with anybody from another race.

I mean, it was almost ganging up, you know, by race instead of neighborhoods. But and that wasn't the way I was raised or grew up. But in that situation, you kind of conform to what everybody else was doing inside there. Right. And what is the kind of general threat level like are you just on guard constantly or you just learn how to align yourself with the right people to be protected like what is the day-to-day experience of just trying to wrap your head around like what to do and what not to do just to get through it yeah i mean i think you learn from from the guys that you hang around with. I tried to learn as quickly as possible to figure it out,

talk to as many people as possible and figure out what's going on here. For me, it was difficult not really knowing who to trust, and I had turned to God very early on when I was in the county jail even. And so I continued on that path while I was in prison, which is not very popular in prison. I think the majority of guys say that anybody going to church while they're in prison is hiding behind the Bible, meaning that they were this badass coming to prison. Now, why are they going to change all of a sudden? Oh, that's interesting. I wouldn't have, I wouldn't have thought that. So, uh, so you are, so you, you make that decision under like some level of threat then, you know, I still remember the, the first day, uh, on the yard at, at high desert state prison. Um, and all the, all the white guys come and hang out at their table and

they shake hands they greet each other and is it like a white supremacist thing too like if you watch the movies it's like if you're with the white guys then their skin heads and they have like swastika tattoos and stuff like that those guys were there but actually um they were kind of like a more supremacist group out of the white guys. Right, like there's another fringe white dude group. Yeah, they definitely took it to the next level. But, you know, so just because you're hanging out with the white guys doesn't mean that you're a white supremacist or that you were a skinhead. Right. So everybody's greeting each other and they do

the call for church. They say, whoever wants to go to church, go and line up by this gate and we'll let you in. And so I knew that that was the path that I was on. I knew that God had gotten me this far. I was doing a lot of my own study and research inside the Bible. I was trying to understand some of these stories, trying to figure out who Jesus Christ was. I grew up a Christian but never really knew who the God of the Bible was. So it was really important to me to stay on that path. And I remember breaking away from the group and walking across the yard

to go to the door that led you into the church. And when I looked behind me, I was the only one. I was the only guy, you know, making this walk across the yard. And it was an incredibly scary feeling, like I was separating myself from the fellas, so to speak. And, you know, as scary as that was, I think that was the decision that made all the difference in the man that I was going to become. What was it that made you feel like this was the path for you, though? Like you said, oh, you were very clear that like, you know, God had delivered you to this moment.

Was there an instance in which something happened that made that clear to you? You know, other than the fact that the way that God came to me while I was in the county jail, I mean, it was at, there was a small group and there was like a Sunday school teacher who almost taught the Bible to us like we were little children. And I remember telling this story about Zacchaeus, you know, that this small man that wanted to see God and wanted to see her, Jesus was coming through the town and he wanted to see her, but the town was too crowded

and he was kind of a smaller person. So what he did was he climbed up in a tree to see God. And I just remember that story touching me in a way like I needed to be explained about God and the Bible as if I was a child. I wasn't in a place of spiritual maturity. And that's the first time. I mean, that was the turning moment for me. And did that coincide with you getting sober? I mean, I think they happened at the same time,

but I don't think one led to the other. Yeah. For me, honestly, like waking up and realizing that I was a person that took somebody else's life was the thing that said I will never use again. Yeah. And were you going to like AA meetings in prison and jail? Yeah, at San Quentin, you know, they had AA meetings. We had a Saturday night home group. They gave out chips that they made in the furniture factory.

They let guys share, you know, about their sobriety. Some are real, some are bullshit. How many people show up at the AA meetings in San Quentin? There was actually quite a few. They had five or six nights of AA during the week. And as lifers and as guys that have to go to the parole board, and especially if your crime had something to do with drugs or alcohol, you need to show the parole board written documentation of your attending. Right. So lots of guys there just getting the sign offs. Exactly. Right. Did outside groups bring meetings into you? Because I've done that kind of thing at LA County Jail. Yeah. Where you go in and do meetings with the guys yeah there was um several several outside

groups i mean almost all of them i don't think any of them were uh inmate led right uh they had you know and that was a nice thing about san quentin too is they did allow and encourage a lot of community support to actually come inside the prison and offer these programs so it seems like it was almost a relief then to get to San Quentin, which seems ironic and not what you would expect. Yeah, it took seven years. I was incarcerated seven years. And I think to go from level four to level two in seven years was a blessing in itself. I think that was well below the average. A lot of guys don't make it for 10 to 10

to 15 years just because there's a lot of trouble that you can get in along the way and any kind of write-up uh makes your points stay jacked up so you got to keep a low profile and just i mean the idea is to just be as invisible as possible i think that's a pretty good strategy as much as possible. And you are in a chaotic prison environment where anything could go down at any time. Right. Right. So you were able to get through that part though, without any scrapes. Yeah. You know, and I think a lot of that was, was, um, I got out of plan for me And I think he kept me out of certain situations, and he also provided a lot of opportunity for me along the way. And if I knew that was going to happen on day one, you know,

the fact is I didn't. I didn't. It took 15, 16 years inside prison. And looking back and going, you know, wow, a lot of things added up and aligned themselves along the way. When you reflect back on it now, setting aside the, you know, the fact that a life was sacrificed in the context of this can you find some gratitude for the experience because of the principles by which you live your life today yeah i mean definitely it's very easy for me to say that san quentin saved my life and if somebody were to ask you how it saved your life how do you

answer that it you know i think think when little kids get in trouble, right, the parents put them in timeout. This was my timeout. You had an extended timeout. I mean, it was huge, but it caused me to wake up. You know, it gave me a lot of time to self-reflect, which I don't think people outside of prison have, or, you know, they're busy with their jobs and their lives, and here I was.

I sat down for a while. It wasn't the best of environment or most conducive environment, but it also caused me to take my life very seriously. And I never wanted to let that time be wasted. I applied myself to every group and program and educational opportunity that was available. You know, I was able to go back to school and earn that college degree that I got your degree. I was never able to do, you know, in the free world. You know, there was a veterans group inside San Quentin where I was probably a much

better airman than I ever was, you know, while I was at the Defense Language Institute. There was a run club, there's a thousand mile club where they would meet, you know, every week. And at the beginning of the year, we would run a benchmark mile to see how fast you could run a mile. And then over the course of the year, we would train and increase the distance and every year in november they actually run a marathon the san quentin marathon which is you know we don't we don't have a very scenic course it's 105 laps around the same quarter mile loop of a prison yard and i think just the the training and the camaraderie and the discipline

that goes into that i mean you're you're an endurance athlete so i'm sure you can relate yeah you know that that was my training ground for things so much more than just the physical i mean the the mental and the emotional and the spiritual you know that's where everything tied in for me. You had this facility, though, this ability to grab on to all of the lifelines that were available to you, you know, within the confines of this situation. Most people don't. Right. imagine what do you think it is or was within you that gave you that like engine or that desire to reinvent yourself with the prospect that you may never get out whereas so many people just can't get to that place. Yeah, I mean, I understand what you're saying, and I agree with you.

For me, it was faith, and it was optimism, and not giving up. I just, that peace has never been in me. Like I said, I think optimism has been my greatest and my worst quality at the, at the same time, because, you know, here is this person with, with an unlimited potential, you know, he could do anything he wants, but yeah, he wants to screw it off for, for becoming a drug dealer. But at the same time, when I was at my lowest, you know,

and things were at the darkest, it's like, I refuse to, to give up on myself. And not just for me. Yeah, I was going to say, how much of that was fueled by this sense of attempting to atone? Quite a bit. You know, and like atone to Morgan, atone to his family, atone to my family, right? The people that have loved and believed in me, you know, my whole life and wanted better things for me. You know, it's really hard for me to even understand the shame and the embarrassment that I caused them. And yet my mom and my sister were there, you know, every month and spent a lot of holidays inside prison, inside San Quentin,

sharing vending machine food, but sharing family time together, supporting me through an incredibly difficult journey and, you know, hard on me and hard on them too. Yeah. I mean, you could have just gone down a spiral and become further entrenched in the behavior patterns that led you to that place. But you have this ability to really take advantage of the limited resources available to you. I mean, you didn't just graduate, you didn't just get your degree. I mean, you were the valedictorian, right? Walk me through the speech that you gave that left everybody in tears. That was pretty incredible because when I got to San Quentin,

I went to the graduation that was going on there, and a friend of mine was actually given the valedictorian speech. I'm like, how did you do that? He's like, well, I had the highest grade point average. I'm like, well, shit, I think I can do that. I want to make that speech because I've served seven years in prison at institutions where there wasn't a whole lot going on for guys. There wasn't school.

There wasn't AA. There wasn't self-help. And I was pretty pissed off. You know, I was angry. There wasn't a lot to do except work out and read books and, you know, watch your time pass by. And I said, okay, I can get this valedictorian and I can make this speech and I can go up there

and I can rage against the machine and tell them everything that I thought was wrong. And it took me two and a half years of going to every class, of showing up early, of staying late, of doing all the homework. I remember there was one time I even got a B plus on a paper, and I wrote an additional paper explaining why I thought it was an A paper, and they actually changed the grade.

But what I'm saying is I was dedicated and I was committed and I really believed in this speech that I wanted to write. That's interesting. So the speech was really the driving thing behind all of it. I think so. I felt like I had a lot to say. And for those first seven years, I didn't have much of a voice. Right.

That's like the ability to have a little bit of power in a powerless situation. Yeah. And I got to that day where it came down to me and one other guy and I actually beat him out with the GPA. And so they told me and I went down to write the speech. And as the word started, you know, coming out my pen, it was different. Right. Somewhere along the way. Right? Somewhere along the way. Somewhere along the way, my message changed. Right? It went from anger and despair and feeling like I didn't have a voice to one of gratitude because there was so many people and I was able to wake up and see and look around and see like, you know, these people that came in and teach these college classes, they didn't have to do that. Right. They chose to do that. They, they saw something in us that the guys in San Quentin and the guys in the college program and the guys in the last mile, I mean, the running club, they saw something in us that, that I didn't see in myself. And so I wasn't angry anymore.

It was like I felt accomplished, you know. And like in those courses, like the more I learned about the world, the more I understood that I had a place in it. I had a responsibility to it, you know. responsibility to it, you know, and it didn't serve where I was going to be angry about it or to complain about it. You know, I really wanted to take ownership of my voice and my place, and I felt like I had a lot to offer. At the graduation ceremony, I was allowed to have my mom and my sister attend and hear this speech. And it was pretty amazing to allow them to actually come inside the chapel and see this graduation ceremony. And I remember when I was going through trial, my sister or my biological mom had gone back to

school. And the week that her graduation was scheduled for was the same week as my trial. And without hesitation, she skipped her graduation to come support me during my trial. And so this was my moment to try to say thank you to her and thank you to my mom and thank you to just all the people that had been there for me and supported me on this journey. The warden was there and I remember asking her to stand up and just telling them that story and recounting how it happened. And the entire place gave her a standing ovation. I was crying. She was crying. She was crying more than me, I guarantee you. But I wouldn't be surprised if the warden was crying that day. It's interesting.

I mean, that's a huge breakthrough, right? To be plotting and planning this speech where you're going to say everything that's been on your mind about how you were wronged or what needs to be changed. And then to be delivered to that place and take a totally different tack, you know, is spiritual growth. So then the last mile comes in after that, right? Or do I have that wrong? No, that's right. Actually, you know, the same friend of mine that had made the valedictorian speech, he just happened to be the same guy that invited me to the first Last Mile demo day, my friend Kenyatta. And he said, hey, you should come check this out.

And I hadn't heard about the Last Mile before. It was a new program. I think there was five guys involved. And so I went to their demo day. And these five men shared their business ideas. And these five men shared their business ideas. You know, half the guys filled from inmates, you know, inside prison. And the other half were venture capitalists and media and tech people from the surrounding community. And they were talking about these mobile apps that they were developing and the business, you know, ideas that and the value proposition and who it was going to impact and who it was going to help.

And they did it in such a slick, professional way. I mean, I felt like I was watching Shark Tank. And it was just amazing. I mean, I was so impressed. They were talking about tech that we had no access to. For 17 years, I didn't have access to a smartphone or email or the internet. And I knew that this was a program that I wanted to be a part of. or the internet. And I knew that this was a program that I wanted to be a part of.

So essentially, the last mile was started by these entrepreneurs who wanted to bring coding education to inmates as a way of giving them some skills, some training, so that when they get out, they have something marketable to share. Part of that is this demo day where the inmates who have been studying coding create these businesses, and then they have the opportunity to pitch them to the outside world, these VCs, these investors, and other startup companies, I guess, right? Exactly. That's accurate? Yeah, fairly accurate.

It started out as an entrepreneurship program. They didn't know if it was going to work. It was a brand new idea. And then Chris Redlitz and Beverly Pereni, the people that founded the program, came up with the idea to introduce computer coding, which at the time I would have said was a crazy idea. It just never happened before. Inmates didn't have access to computers.

How are you supposed to learn how to code when you're not connected to the internet, right? That's a great question. But they set it up, and they talked to the people. They talked to administration inside the prison. They talked to officials in Sacramento, and they got the green light you know they partnered with the uh pia uh industry authority uh there at san quentin uh-huh and they created a computer lab you know 18 uh computers uh they had applications and interviews i was

accepted as one of the first 18 guys to go in there you know it was a pilot project they didn't know if it was going to work they didn't know if it was going to work. They didn't know if we were going to be able to learn it. You're going to teach them computer coding. They're not going to go back there and kill each other learning something so challenging. But they gave it a shot. And we gave it a shot.

And we didn't have access to the internet. I mean, what the hell? We barely even knew what the internet was, except for what we saw on TV or in magazines, something like that. So did you grow up with any kind of inclination around tech? Or was this a brand new, bizarro new world? You know, I was a video game nut when I was a kid.

You know, long before I was addicted to drinking or using, I was addicted to video games. I used to play them all the time. You know. I never thought that maybe I could turn that into actually coding or writing the software that makes these games. So I think I had that much experience. I remember messing around on American Online before getting locked up. That was about the hottest thing going. They had cell phones back then, but they weren't very smart. So there was no Facebook. Yeah, and it's weird.

All this technical innovation is happening so quickly without you being able to access or be informed about it. It must have been wild when you got released. It was a whole new world all of a sudden out there. Yeah, it's so crazy good yeah but yeah so you know they started uh teaching us uh html and css and javascript how to write uh build basic pages and and and write some applications and some functions and data structures algorithms you know um we didn't have access to the internet.

So we didn't have the same resources that guys and gals on the outside would have. But there was a lot of like grit and determination and also this exposure to computers that I think really inspired a lot of guys to try to learn this stuff. I know I did. I fell in love with it because I felt like it combined the math and the language perfectly for me. I would go back to my cell at night with a computer coding book and get my little notebook and a number two pencil

and practice writing toy problems, how to figure stuff out with code. And it wasn't until I was back in the class the next day that I could actually see if it worked. out with code and it wasn't until i was back in the class the next day that i could actually see if it worked right but when it did i mean it just i feel like it really strengthened my own problem solving abilities which applies to code but also applies to life and how many guys were part of this program so there was 18 initially selected to take part in the program. It was just supposed to be a six-month web development course. At the end of six months, 11 guys passed with a high enough proficiency to where they started a track two.

So continued learning. And so there was a track one and track two for additional learning. We started learning Node and WordPress and React, some back-end coding languages too like Python and Ruby. So it was pretty cool, the stuff that we were able to learn. One of our projects for the Track 2 was actually to build the apps that we had been pitching in the entrepreneurship program. So Fitness Monkey was selected as one of the programs.

So we developed a personal health and recovery tracker, which is the model for the app that I'm developing today. But what it does is it tracks people's clean time, and it also allows them to log workout data and then combine these two metrics to give them charts and visualizations about how to stay clean and sober. And so how long did you work on Fitness Monkey before your demo day where you got to get up and pitch it? Two months.

Oh, that's it? Two months. And it was a group project. So we enlisted other people on the team and we kind of split it apart. We didn't have a lot of time. And then, of course, you have to take a little time to rehearse. Right. Presenting this in a professional way, right? right yeah and so who shows up for demo day well quite a few people

uh there was people from facebook there really uh there was people from airbnb wow uh mc hammer was there yeah he's sort of one of the mentors right yeah program he's on the board of directors and also just a big supporter of the last mile and and also tech uh it's been amazing to have him um you know and i was there for i was in the coding program for two and a half years uh before uh leaving san quentin so i went through track one and track two. I went on to a track three program that was setting up the joint venture program. In the track three, we were able to build a social media dashboard for Airbnb that went to Twitter and Facebook and pulled back their likes and their follower accounts and recent posts. That was incredibly difficult because we didn't have access to the internet and we had to learn how to use those apis and get that data we had to build our own fake facebook and fake twitter to practice passing the data back and forth to see if it worked yeah just so you could

like test it out without being connected online it's crazy yeah well uh I do know that when you did pitch it on this demo day that it went well because there was an article on TechCrunch where whoever was there said, when you got up and did your thing, the guy was like, his pitch was better than a lot of the Y Combinator companies that I've heard give their pitches. You had it dialed, which is amazing. That's a big compliment.

Yeah, I mean, that's tech crunch. I mean, that's no small thing. And what's interesting is that this program is the anomaly because when you canvas what's going on in our prison industrial complex, certainly not enough rehabilitation programs going on, right? And this is a maverick situation. You're a shining example of, you know, what this rehabilitative process can produce, but we need so much more of this, right? Like when you kind of reflect on your experience, how do you think about prison reform?

What, you know, what worked for you and what can be changed to produce more examples like yourself? Yeah, that's a great question. And I think, you know, you're exactly right. I honestly believe that more needs to be made available to people while they're inside. Because, yes, you know, crimes have been committed and people need to, you know, I believe that prisons, you know, for people that commit crimes need to serve time. Right.

Like, I believe that. I believe that there should be consequences to our actions. But then how you treat those, I mean, I believe that's the punishment, right? It's not like, oh, go to prison and then treat them horribly while they're inside. I mean, if it really is about rehabilitation, then you need to give these men and women skills and tools and self-help that's going to help them become better people and become assets to their community. And I think that more can be done, you know, from both sides, you know, like from the private sector, people allowed to come in like the last mile. But also, I think the state has a certain responsibility to be involved and engaged in that rehabilitation. You know, for a long time,

it was lock them up and throw away the key. So it didn't really matter. Now, more than ever, people are being released from prison, you know, who have served their time, who have rehabilitated themselves, who have gone to the parole board and been found suitable for release. You know, and a lot of that was done under Jerry Brown. And then also, I believe Gavin Newsom is going to have a big part in that as well. Yeah. You know, I'm certainly no expert in this field, but I do know that, you know, statistically, the number of of inmates incarcerated where the offense has some relationship to drugs and alcohol is super high. It's probably in the 80% range or something like that. And recidivism is super high. You know, you probably know the statistics

of how many people end up back in prison or reoffending. Certainly, you know, it needs to be punitive but it needs to be a balance of punitive and rehabilitative and i think the pendulum is too far on the side of punitive and not enough in terms of rehabilitative and you know from a pure economic perspective uh it's not a good way to operate the system um we don't want people going back in uh and to the extent that we as it's not a good way to operate the system. We don't want people going back in. And to the extent that we, it's like, what kind of society do you want to live in? I would like to live in a society

where we're punishing people for breaking the law, but we're also providing them with the tools necessary to rehabilitate them such that they can be productive members of society whenever possible right and this program should be considered like a pilot program for other types of programs that you know can bring these services into the inmates and provide them with a sense of purpose as well into the inmates and provide them with a sense of purpose as well. Yeah.

No, I totally agree. It's been amazing to watch the last mile go from an entrepreneurship class to a coding program to having success stories inside San Quentin. But it's also growing. It's expanding. The last mile is in eight prisons in California now, including women's prisons. in eight prisons in California now, including women's prisons. They're expanding outside of California to Indiana, to Kansas, Oklahoma in January. And one of the most amazing things, and it happened actually after I was released, was they started a last mile coding program in

a juvenile facility down in Ventura. And they allowed the graduates of the program at San Quentin to get on a Skype call and mentor the juvenile guys going through the program. And I thought, just what an amazing experience. Because I think that the younger people that are in that situation are so much more apt to learn from people that have gone through and experienced it and have that kind of like street cred so it's amazing to it to watch uh the last mile grow and how it's evolved when i did actually get released on may the 4th 2017 i went to work for an internship with the last mile they asked me and two other uh members of the last mile to go down to y combinator and pitch a learning management system uh-huh uh so i was able to take all the skills that i learned you know pitching fitness monkey to go and try and pitch and basically what we were doing was trying to take the coding program that's at san quentin and putting it into a piece of

software uh that's now being distributed to all these other locations. Oh, wow. That's cool. Yeah. That's amazing. So we didn't happen to get picked up by Y Combinator that time. But then I also learned that they didn't pick up any nonprofits. So I felt like we did all right.

That's cool. Do you now, have you gone back to San Quentin in some kind of mentorship capacity to check in with the program there? Yes. The last mile actually, you know, it started out as the one classroom and it was inside an old print factory warehouse.

So there was a lot of empty space. The last mile has now turned that empty space into five different classrooms. They're going to offer a design program. They're going to offer CAD CAM. They're expanding into IT. There's a new partnership with Google. The guys in the

program, in the joint venture program, have developed their own offline search engine called Jolt, which basically almost like if you're typing... Being online? Yeah, like being on Google, but now it taps into all the videos and the PDF files and the resources that are available. It was just getting too unwieldy.

Everything was every place on the server. And so they created their own search engine, which is amazing. There's a lot of talent back there and a lot of, you know, just a lot of guys that I really believe are doing the work to earn their freedom and earn their humanity. Right. And that's the part that I really want to shine a light on that I don't think a lot of people see. So explain that a little bit more fully. You know, I think, you know, a part of that, me saying like, I didn't feel like I had a voice for a long time. I feel like people in prison are portrayed a certain way in media and on TV and in film.

And if that's all people ever watched, you know, what would they think about somebody like, oh yeah, I got an ex-felon living next door to me. You know, I really wanted to see see the positive things that are going on, the college programs, the veterans group, the run clubs, the last mile, guys learning to code. I saw the prison yard change after the last mile arrived, meaning there used to be guys out on the yard doing push-ups and pull-ups and playing handball or whatever, two guys walking across the yard with a computer coding book in their hand,

going to the gym to sit down and practice studying together. I mean, it was amazing. Yeah, that's a long way from pressing license plates. Right. Yeah, it's wild. So where does fitness come in? I mean, it's like an everyday thing for me. Was it always that way, though?

I think very early on, it's encouraged, right? Because. It's kind of the only thing to do, right? You know, and especially on the level four yards. If a riot kicks off, I think you're going to be one in good shape as opposed to bad shape. So it was almost mandatory that the white guys be out there uh working out you know and that that was out of survival not you know out of out of this love for uh working out but then it was also a great way to pass the time and for me i had a lot of a lot of extra energy

that i wasn't putting into to drinking or using anymore uh it became my sanctuary it became my meditation you know either running like you said you started doing yoga right did yoga so there's like proper there were like yoga classes every tuesday night really yeah in the buddhist chapel uh there was about 30 guys really and an instructor named james fox that would come in from the outside uh it was part of the inside prison project and yeah i mean you know you're you're in a crazy environment but but what a better place to like just explore the the body and the breath and the stretching and the breathing i mean for me it really made a lot of difference in just how to cope with a lot of difficulty yeah and then running yeah i mean running that was something

i fell in love with and i wasn't a runner you know my whole life uh i don't think i ran my first five miles until i got to san quentin you know i was in the air force but that was only maybe a couple miles at a time yeah but i remember running that first you know 20 laps or whatever it was uh and the feeling that i had you know afterwards and also there's this like in prison you're never alone and when i was running on the track that that was my time just to be with myself and be with my body be with my breath be with the things that were you know running through my mind so did it start with you just saying i'm going to run around the yard or was there a group saying come on we go we run at this time join us

at that no actually at the time i was trying to learn how to play tennis believe it or not san quentin actually had a tennis court and a tennis team you're painting a very different picture this place than i had in my mind yoga classes and tennis sorry to spoil it for everyone yeah but it was pretty amazing and I really wanted to learn how to play this game tennis you know I didn't grow up playing and I remember that I wanted to be fast enough to get to every tennis ball that was hit my way so that's why I started running and I just found a love for running that went beyond you know just being quick or fast yeah I remember on my birthday my 38th birthday I decided I was going to run 38 laps around this

track it was nine and a half miles a few months later there was a half marathon and then that November you know I ran a 105 laps 26.2 miles around around the San Quentin prison yard. All in the same direction, or did you switch directions? No, it's all the same direction. Under four hours. That's pretty good. Not bad. One of the hazards is if there's an alarm, everybody has to sit down.

So right in the middle of your marathon, if there's an alarm uh you got to sit down and i think you get to pause your time yeah they do they do pause the time but not your legs or your you know everything that's stretched out or sore and you know you can't train like an endurance athlete while you're in prison you don't have access to the same uh health care you don't have access to the same foods you know that was kind of tough inside. I personally was diabetic. Found out when I was 31 years old. Oh, wow. Type 1 or type 2?

Type 1. Yeah, and it didn't hit me until late in life. So I had to learn to manage that, you know, insulin and food intake and storing some extra jelly packs from the peanut butter and jelly on the side just in case my blood sugar dipped low while I was running. And what is your relationship with running vis-a-vis recovery? Like explain to me like the healing powers of running in weathering that experience of being inside and staying sober?

Yeah. For me, it gives me freedom. It gives me release. It gives me connection. Like I said, it's my meditation in a lot of ways. It gives me time to think. I have friends who I run with on the outside, and that allows me camaraderie and friendship. You know, I recently had a friend of mine named Eddie.

He did 14 years and he was released. And he had actually won the San Quentin Marathon, so he was pretty fast. Oh, wow. But it's all on a flat track. So I took him to my hometown, 10K, in Lafayette, thinking, you know, he might be a little bit faster than me, but I think I can get him on the hills. I'll be damned if he didn't get ninth overall in that thing. Wow. That's pretty good.

Yeah. I would suspect when you're inside, it also provides you with a sense of agency. You know, like it's something that you can control, right? Or you can try to master, you know, in the same way that, you know, like it's something that you can control, right. Or you can try to try to master, you know, in the same way that, you know, the last mile is providing you this, you know, ability to develop a skill. Like there's something about running like that you can own that's yours. Yeah. I mean, I think that's true too, you know, and especially, I mean, it's not always about the race or the event, right? It's about all the training that goes into getting there and who I was able to become during that process, right?

There's a lot of discipline involved. There's a lot of preparation, learning to wake up and show up. And what is the relationship between fitness and sobriety for you? For me, I think it's, it's, it's so strong. It's like, that really helps me manage my life. Like, even when things are at the roughest, I can go for a run and feel better. You know, I think that AA is a wonderful program. I go to AA and I believe in a lot of their spiritual principles. But I don't believe that that's the one size fits all for sobriety. I think there's a lot of different ways.

And I think for me, fitness and running are really what helps keep me sober. That's interesting. Yeah. I mean, AA got me sober. It keeps me sober. I'm, you know, very active member of that community. And fitness for me is a huge tool that I use to maintain my sobriety. I think the danger for me, and I'm interested in your response to this, is when I start to think that fitness is my higher power or that fitness is the solution to my addiction problem, that's a danger zone for me. It's a tool and it helps me, but it's not the full game for me. Yeah. And I would agree. I don't think it's the full thing.

I think there's a lot of different pieces to it, and it comes in a lot of different forms. Whether it's higher power, or whether it's AA, or whether it's the big book, whether it's running marathons. I was very interested to find out how many people actually, recovering addict, recovering addicts do, you know, train for endurance events. Oh, it's crazy numbers. Yeah. Especially in the ultra community, so many people are in recovery. Lots of tattoos, lots of piercings, and a lot of recovery time. Somebody should do a sociological study on what exactly that's about. Cause I think it's

fascinating. Yeah. So I think there's definitely is a switch, you know, in the brain somewhere that, you know, you're trading one for the other, you know, you can say, Oh, I'm becoming addicted to working out, you know, but did it ever cause the negative side effects that, you know? Right. I mean, I think that it's too simplistic to say that, but it's also not something that should be dismissed. Like a lot of people in recovery are dismissive of that. No, I didn't. I'm not trading one addiction for another. But I think if you're being really honest with yourself, there is an aspect of that. A friend of mine says that the drink or the drug was always the easy choice and like running's hard, you know,

so they don't exactly correspond directly in that way. But I want to believe, and I like to believe that on some level, addicts and alcoholics are seekers. They're spiritual seekers. They're looking for answers to what ails them. They're just doing it in a very unhealthy way. And on some level in sobriety and recovery, that search can continue through endurance sports because it is a template for self-exploration in a healthier way. It can be misused just like drugs and alcohol, not you know in in as as dark a way but you can have an unhealthy relationship with running or sports or fitness of course but i think that they are uh you know uh tools uh for for that spiritual expansion if used correctly and so it doesn't surprise me that so many people in recovery find

their way, you know, towards these ultra events or marathons or what have you. You agree? I think I'm on board. I feel like we're saying the same thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right on. And you've gone on, you've run marathons. And I know that you, like when there's like a structured running event in san quentin you get buddies together on the outside and do the same thing yeah solidarity runs uh as a matter of fact this friday i imagine if the the weather permits uh you know the air quality with the fires and stuff but um they're gonna have the san quentin marathon right so uh if you're free i'd like to invite you to a solidarity round oh wow cool what day is that happening we could do it here we could do it friday friday so friday is well i'm gonna

be back home but i could do it from where i live maybe that sounds good yeah all right you're gonna hold me to that do you still run marathons it's been a while it's been a it's been a minute you know i can i'm always relatively marathon ready, but I might have to stretch. Maybe if we all took like a half or a quarter or something like that. Yeah, all right. We'll follow up on that. So walk me through the parole hearing that culminates in your release. How does that come about? It's your second parole hearing? Yeah, the second parole hearing was in December

of 2016. It had been 18 months since my prior hearing, which I was not found suitable, you know, basically for lack of insights. And, you know, you really don't understand how you got to that place where you committed that crime. And looking back, do you think that was a fair assessment at that time? It's hard to say you know i don't want to be too critical because i'm not in the in the role that uh they were in i felt like i had done everything in my power uh to be found suitable that day and i think there's a lot of other factors that go into whether guys do or don't get found suitable i rationalize it now saying it just wasn't my time yet uh and really what it allowed me to do is have another 18 months to work on myself, to learn more in the computer coding

program, to gain more insight into my causative factors. And so I felt really prepared the second time, you know, when I went in. And there's no guarantees. I mean, I knew it. And what I did do differently was just start to open up more. I felt like maybe at that first hearing, I was a little bit closed off. They'd ask a question and I'd give them a quick answer. And so I didn't want to make that second mistake the second time around. I remember that first hearing was about two hours and my second hearing was four and a half hours of talking about everything, from childhood to drinking and using to becoming a drug dealer to how I'd use my time in prison and really trying to give them a clear picture of who I was today.

It was pretty incredible that there's two commissioners sitting on the panel, It was pretty incredible that, you know, there's two commissioners sitting on the panel and my attorney had submitted an article from the Christian Science Monitor to one of the commissioners. So while one commissioner is asking me questions, the other commissioner is reading about me in the Last Mile program. And so when it came time for him to start asking me questions, he was very complimentary, which I didn't trust inside that hearing because you don't know how it's going to go. But then he also said, you know, there's a lot of people that come in here and say that they've changed. And he goes, I can see by everything

that you've done today that you have. And that was a pretty amazing feeling. And then you go through the hearing and they ask you to step out and they deliberate and they call you back in uh and then they read the the disposition so they decide right then and there yep wow so you know right then uh and you know when they told me that i was suitable for release um there's a lot of release of of emotion yeah you know i felt like you know i never knew if i was going home and now that now that they said yes you know i knew that i

was going to have a second chance at life right um it was an amazing day uh and you don't get out that day yeah it's not yeah yeah Yeah. What is the time period? So there's a five-month review process. The parole board gets to review the hearing for four months and the governor actually gets the last 30 days. So there's a possibility that it could be revoked? Yes. Yes. And I've seen it happen several times, but usually around cases that involve women or children or multiple offenses. So heavy, man. So you get out five months later, whatever.

How do you begin the process of trying to piece your life back together? I mean, it sounds like the last mile. I mean, these guys, you know, God bless them. What a massive support system to have behind you as you try to integrate back into the world. Yeah. I mean, going into the parole board,

you had to have a pretty good solid parole plan together. So I had a transitional house through the california re-entry institute program they run an 18 month life skills program inside san quentin before you're released and then once i got released i was able to transition there the parole board required that i live in transitional housing for six months which i think was a good thing you know after, after being away for so long, it was nice to have a soft landing, so to speak. The Last Mile offered me that position with them to work with them over the summer to continue furthering my skills and figure out job prospects from there.

I was able to reconnect with family, mom and sis. And I felt like just as much as I had been locked up for 17 years, they had too. So I feel like on the day that I got out, they were released from prison too. And I went about trying to rebuild a life. And I'm still there, right? I've been out a year and a half and still learning on a daily basis and still grinding to try to learn more. And, you know, a lot of that's for me and a lot of that's for my family and a lot of that's for just trying to continue to be a good person and make amends for my past. What do you think people misunderstand or don't really appreciate about the process

of trying to reintegrate after an experience like that? That's a good question. I think there's a lot of things, you know, maybe they don't understand. I think people try to be supportive, but just really don't understand like, well, what it was like to be away for that long. I think there's a lot of things like, you know, technology, you know, for for one i was only inside 17 years but i see guys getting out now that have been locked up 35 40 years uh so to put a smartphone in their hands and say figure out gmail or yeah it's star trek right yeah so when you went in it was basically like a little bit of aol and then you come out and it's like iPhone 7 basically. Yeah there's

Facebook, there's Instagram, Google Maps kind of blows my mind. You had no exposure to that whatsoever when you were in. I mean did you get some limited like supervised internet time? No no I mean I kind of knew what the things were because from watching TV and, um, reading magazines, you know, wired magazine was one of my favorites. Uh, so I was kind of learning about the stuff without actually being able to touch it. Yeah. That's weird to get wired and to read all about everything and not have the ability to experience it. Yeah. And I think, I actually think that all the video game training that i did when i was a kid helped you know figure out smartphones and figure out you know apps and and uh you know spotify

blows my mind the fact that you have unlimited music you don't have to go to record stores anymore which i kind of miss you don't you not have to you can't you really can't because they don't exist anymore right yeah yeah i mean i you know i i can't even wrap my head around what that would be like and how do you think about like the ongoing process of like making amends for taking a life and what do people not understand about that? I think one of the misconceptions is that I need forgiveness to move forward. Like what happens if, you know, one, I don't know if Morgan's family even knows who or where I'm at today. You know, I'm not really quite sure about the relationship. But what if I never receive forgiveness, You know, I'm not really quite sure about the relationship, but what if I never receive forgiveness,

you know, from his family? And I think the misconception is there is that, you know, it's forgiveness, that forgiveness isn't about me. I can continue to move forward and be a positive person and try to make amends for the life that I took by becoming a changed human being, by somebody that, you know, all of those character defects that I talked about, selfishness and self-centered,

is doing the opposite, right? Being someone who cares, being someone who's empathetic, being somebody that helps other people, being of service and sharing my story with other people is really important to me. And I think that's another thing. Like a lot of times when guys getting out of prison, they don't really want to talk about it, right? They're trying to become new people. So let's not really talk about the past or let's skirt over the past. And I didn't want to do that because I didn't want there to be secrets in my life.

You know, if there's something that I want people to know, I want them to hear it from me and not somebody else. In observing you share your story and just kind of being around you at Nantucket Project, like my sense is you feel strongly and compelled to share your experience. And it's not that you're reluctant, but there's a little bit of like awkwardness around it. Like you strike me as somebody who's, you know, you're reluctant, but there's a little bit of awkwardness around it. You strike me as somebody who's, you're a quiet dude. You're probably a private guy. You're not some extrovert who wants to get up and spin a yarn. You're doing this because there's a sense of obligation and perhaps you've been called to do it, but it's not like this supernatural fit for you.

Is that fair? That's totally fair. And the hardest part is not telling the rehabilitation story because talking about myself and all the things that I was able to do while inside prison is pretty easy. But going back and talking about what led me there, I think that's the hardest part. And that's the thing that I struggle with, too, is like, how much of that story should I tell? I can be really open and honest and graphic about it, you know, but what purpose does that serve?

You know, it might, you know, some morbid curiosity for people that want to hear, like, well, what in town and how did that happen? But I don't think that's the story. I think it's really about somebody that felt lost and insecure and felt betrayed and lied to and did something that was horrible. You know, and I'm talking about me. I don't feel like I was ever supposed to be on that path. But yet I found myself there. And if it could happen to me, I think it could happen to any one of us, really. I think we all have that power to decide inside of us what path we're going to take.

And sometimes we make good choices and sometimes we make bad choices. They don't always lead to the taking of human life but i think it's in there right i don't think people are inherently evil i think they get distracted by things that happen in their lives maybe their childhoods maybe what's going on in their community that you know and it's important for us to be aware right like never never put ourselves on like a higher plane than than where we're at it's important to be aware that that you know good and evil lives within us all and we all have the power to decide yeah it's very easy and convenient to point your finger at somebody and say i can't believe that person made that decision, I would never do that. And rather than snap to that kind

of judgment, try to have a little bit of empathy and understand what led to that choice, right? Like you haven't walked a mile in that person's shoes or had their life experience. You know, I think we're all, like you said, it's like, it's not a binary thing of good and evil. Like we're a mashup of all of these things and we're a product of our environments. And, you know, if you had had the life experience of that person who made that bad choice, chances are you, you know, very well may have made that same choice. And now to be on the other side of it made that same choice and now to be on the other side of it with what you have learned and this path that you're continuing to blaze i mean it's only been a year and a half since you've been out you know what is the message that you're trying to convey about the rehabilitated version of yourself

yourself and what's possible yeah you know i think uh i think it's important for me to let people know that change is possible that rehabilitation is possible even for a murderer uh and then i also want to give the guys that are following my footsteps a lot of hope too right because when we started you know the last mile or when, you know, when we were going through that program, we didn't know that there was going to be jobs waiting for us. And now that we're having success stories, you know, we have guys working at the Chan Zuckerberg foundation. There's an apprenticeship program at Slack. Fandom has now two last mile graduates working for them. You know, I've been with them for a little over a year. And another friend of mine, Jason Jones, just started his internship. So I would encourage him to keep working his butt

off. And I think it's great that tech communities are starting to embrace this idea of a second chance. Yeah, it had to be precarious to put all of this energy into developing this skill without any assurances whatsoever that you would ever be able to apply it in the context of a job that would, you know, pay you a living wage. I mean, you can, there's fitness monkey, you can have your entrepreneurial journey, but is anybody really going to give you a second chance was a question you know very much open at the time right definitely and honestly my entire incarceration that was one of my biggest fears right i know how hard i can work i know everything that i can accomplish while i was inside will that ever you know provide an opportunity when I get home?

Yeah, so fandom gives you this chance. I mean, it was an intense interview process, though, wasn't it? Oh, my gosh. It was an equal four and a half hours long as the parole board. Not quite as tough, but still pretty tough. These guys had been in the coding industry for a while, knew a lot about what they were talking about, and they were kind of putting me through my paces to see what I knew. I was able to talk about projects that I worked on with The Last Smile. I showed them Fitness Monkey,

the prototype app that we built. I showed them the Airbnb dashboard. And at the end of the day, they offered me a 90-day internship. And in terms of that interview process, though, how much of that was based on assessing your technical acumen versus like, is this guy going to be safe? Are we going to be able to cohabitate with this dude in a work environment? I didn't even think about that. Really? Because it's like, all right, we're going to hire this guy

who's been convicted of murder. You know, he got out. But like, okay, he can code. Like, he's got that part handled. But like, are we really going to hire this guy and take this risk? Like, if something were to happen. Yeah. You know.

No, that's a huge piece. The finger would be like, really? You hired this guy? Like, and look what happened. You know, the liability. Yeah. Like, really, you hired this guy? Like, and look what happened. You know, the liability, the exposure is so gigantic that it really is this leap of faith. No, I see what you're saying, you know, and, you know, I think there's a lot of truth to that. You know, maybe it was more than just the code.

I was focused on that part of it. Right. I figured that was my job. But I would imagine you probably convinced them of that in short shrift you know it's more of like a character thing like if we have them around here for four and a half hours eventually we'll be able to see who the real chris is yeah and so i met with like four four members of the team you know the product manager the the tech the tech lead um the engineering manager uh and got the internship but two weeks into the internship they asked me to present at the all hands meeting you know and there's over 500 employees at fandom in eight

offices around the world and they asked me to tell my story and that was really tough too right like here's these people i'd been working with for two weeks who didn't know any of my background story but at the same time i wanted to share it with them because i felt like fandom did take a chance on me and believed you know not only my abilities but my ability to integrate uh with the culture was that the first time that you kind of shared your story on a group level it was you know i think uh you know that the first time that you kind of shared your story on a group level? It was. You know, I think, you know, the people that I was in the interview with knew my story, but, you know, the entire office didn't.

And I was able to go up there and tell them just in a real and open and honest way, just like I shared the crime with you today, you know, and kind of what led up to it. But then also the, the, the rehabilitation journey. And I was pleasantly surprised that, uh, after sharing my story with them, I went from the 45 year old intern to somebody with a lot of life experience and, uh, a lot of, a lot of information and experience to just to share with them. Were there people after that who were like, oh, I just thought you were like, I couldn't

figure out why you were so old? That must have like blown a few minds. I mean, it had to be, word must have passed around before that though, like, hey, this guy got out of prison that's sitting next to you in the cubicle no i'm not sure i'm not you don't know exactly sure how much and uh none of them called me the old intern to my face right not to your face but i'm sure yeah um is it weird that you're somebody who's kind of gotten a lot of attention? I mean, you were getting press when you were still in prison. Like there's, you know, just researching,

getting ready for this today. Like there's articles being written because of the last mile program and you being a shining star within that, um, you were getting attention while you were still incarcerated and that's just continued as you've gotten out is that like a weird thing like it's sort of like why me for some reason this is god's plan perhaps you know the spotlight is being shown upon you and i feel like you're somebody who recognizes that and has made this decision to carry that responsibility forward to you know share a message of of hope and rehabilitation yeah no thank you first of all and uh yeah it's weird you know i never imagined myself doing this many interviews or podcasts or you know being on on news programs. It's not exactly the most glamorous thing to have, you know,

the light shined on me for being in prison and doing all these amazing things. But at the same time, that's where I'm at, you know. And I do feel an obligation to kind of pay forward, you know, all that's been given to me. I think, you know, whatever it was in my brain is I was one of the people that wasn't afraid to be interviewed and tell my story. Just like I wasn't afraid to go for that valedictorian speech and, and tell them everything that was wrong. But, you know, at the same time, you know, I believe in the message, you know, and that's one thing that the last mile has taught us

is to, to believe in the process. And at first I didn't even know what that meant because I didn't know what process they were talking about, you know, and it was believing in the program. It was believing in yourself and, you know, believing that you had the ability to figure things out, uh, even when the answers aren't so clear. So when you say believe that you believe in the message that you're putting out there succinctly, like what is that message? That change is possible. Yeah. I mean, I think that everybody has pain moments and bottoms in their life and perhaps they're not as severe as what you've had to weather, but the power in your message, whether you're a felon who's listening to this or somebody

who just feels stuck in their life with some obstacle they're trying to overcome, there is hope and inspiration in the ability or the wherewithal within all of us to tackle and overcome those obstacles that we face. And if you could come from a life sentence and staring down the barrel of having to live with the fact that you took another person's life and still find a way to move forward and put your life back together to atone, to be in this process of making living amends, I think that there is inspiration for all people who are struggling in their own ways with whatever they're contending with in their lives. And so there is value in continuing to tell the story.

And I would imagine that the version of the story that you tell will continue to evolve. Because if there's one thing that I've discovered, it's like in telling a story, like the story, you start to learn more and more about what it is, what's important about the story and what people are connecting with. You know, and I think that will be an evolutionary process

for you as well. But it was interesting to hear you tell it, to share it at Nantucket. How did you, Tom told the story of how you guys first met, like he was touring San Quentin. What was that experience like? There was something about you that he connected with and he felt compelled to like stay in touch with you. Yeah.

I mean, I still remember the day that he came inside, even though I didn't really know who he was, you know, at the time. And we were talking about, you know, life in prison and the coding program. I showed him the Fitness Monkey Project. And somehow we got on the topic of sobriety, you know, and I talked about being clean for 16 plus years, you know. And he talked about, you know, recovery in his own life and kind of what helped him. And he talked about recovery in his own life and kind of what helped him. And he says that there was one question that he asked me that really stood out is like,

when I go back home at night, am I happy? And the first thing I had to correct him on was I don't go back home. I go back to a cell, which we both chuckled at. But at the time, I said, yeah, I'm not exactly where I want to be. I'm not, you know, fulfilling everything that I think I could live up to. But, you know, in this moment, I'm doing everything I can. And that was enough for me, you know. And he said that he went down to another conference a few days later with all these millionaires and billionaires down there

and he said he looked at all of them and didn't see one of them that was as happy or content as I was inside San Quentin so I mean I think that that's what impressed him since then I've gotten to learn about the Nantucket Project and I think it's an amazing organization the way that they share conversations and stories about things that are going on in the world and with people. It actually reminds me, on a bigger scale, but a lot of the different groups that I did while I was inside San Quentin, where I'd sit in a circle of 10 guys and just get real and open and honest about what's going on in our lives and what's going on in our pasts uh how we got to here and you know who we hope to be so you know when tom asked me to share my story for the nantucket project that was an easy yes yeah how did that feel being up there doing that crazy nervous yeah yeah uh you know especially the first time i think the first time um not this year but last year you know i got interviewed by kelly corgan uh and she was asking

me all the tough questions kind of like you were asking me today and sharing that conversation and i'd only been out of prison for a few months you're like what am i doing at this event but all these like posh people and i'm sitting here in idyllic nantucket and there's uh boats going by and lighthouses and it was beautiful and i can't explain you know fully explain with with any kind of like reason or understanding how i ended up at nantucket except for i just kept saying yes to all the positive things that were going in my life, you know, and, and saying yes to opportunities that presented themselves. You know, I truly believe that life is defined by the things that we say yes and no to, uh, yes to education, you know,

yes to improving, uh, you know, your condition, yes to, uh to trying to make the most out of bad situations. You know, so when they asked me to go give a talk at the Nantucket Project, you know, I wanted to say yes to that too. Right. And this year they screened this East of Eden film that Tom and his team put together. Is that going to be available, viewable by the public?

Do you know? From what I told, it's still a work in progress. So I'm not quite sure, to be honest. Yeah, it was definitely impactful. So following up, extending that question that Tom asked you that day about going home, what does it feel like now when you lay your head on the pillow? What are the thoughts that run through your mind? Life is pretty good right now. I mean, there has to be a tremendous amount of gratitude for having this second chance. But I imagine it's more complicated than that

because it's mixed with the confusing emotions around you know what led you to that point yeah I mean I feel like I have a good understanding of what led me to that point you know and I've taken accountability and taken ownership of all of it you know there's parts of it that I'll never understand you you know, how much pain or how much harm that I caused. But for the pieces that I can, for my side of the street, I feel like I've done my part. And that's really what allows me to move forward and continue to try to grow and progress and build a life, you know, because I feel like in a lot of ways I am grateful for all the opportunities that's been provided. A place to live, working, opportunities to share my story, getting a girlfriend.

Like real life stuff, getting my own apartment. All these things are things that I haven't done in a long time and i'm having to figure it out you got a girlfriend now sort of all right but yeah i'm not going to publish this for a while so i don't you never know by that yeah um how does that go like dating and having to you know be upfront and honest about your past oh my gosh have you heard of these dating app things i've heard of them i've been married a long time oh my gosh they're a nightmare they're such a blessing and a curse because they're supposed to allow you to interact with all these different single people uh and i remember i was in uh i had just gotten in the transitional house and i downloaded one of these apps well like tinder uh it wasn't tinder but it's close and uh i remember you know

i i didn't have a car yet i didn't have my own place i think i still had a curfew you know right so i wasn't the most eligible bachelor for you but A vision for you. But there was a girl in the town where I was living, and I said, hey, look, I'm new in town. Why don't you show me around? And she's like, new in town? Where'd you come from? I'm like, oh, shit, the moment of truth. Right, it just came right up front immediately.

And it comes quicker than I realize it every time. But I said, San Quentin. And she goes, you were in prison? I prison I'm like yeah and there's a story if you'd like to hear it and uh this girl was uh nice enough and brave enough to to hear my story and uh we kind of texted and chatted for a few weeks and um went on a bike riding date down to the park a few weeks later and dated for a good six months. But I found like, like I said, I don't want there to be like part of my story that I have to hide with people. I want to show up on a daily basis and be genuine and authentic. And, you know, that means telling some of the dirty truth too.

Sure. Yeah. It's gotta be a challenge to navigate that. I wanna wind this down and I'm trying to think of the best way to do that. I think, you know, on this theme of second chances, if somebody is listening to this and they are stuck, you know, maybe they just got out of prison or maybe they just want to,

you know, lose a couple pounds or run their first marathon or, you know, they're in a job that feels like a dead end or is unfulfilling. What is the, you know, message that you want to leave with that person about the prospect or possibility of making fundamental changes that can alter the trajectory of your life and, and, and, you know, give these people their version of your second chance. That's a great question. You know, how do you, how do you, how do you boil it down to anything is possible? Yeah, it's like when you have nowhere to turn, like you hit your bottom and you make these changes, they're forged out of pain and they're forged out of being placed in a cage where your options are very limited, right?

And you're compelled to confront yourself in a very real way without very many other options. And in a certain respect, other people may be on a very slow drip version of that. It's not so bad that they have to change, right? But they're unhappy. They know they want to change. And it's almost like hitting that bottom is a blessing because you are compelled to change in a certain way. Most people don't reach that. It's like a heavy drinker who's not an alcoholic. You know what I mean?

Like that person may drink for the rest of their life and never get to that place of seeing sobriety like in the way that you or I do. Yeah. I mean, I think my bottom is as horrible as it was and I needed it, you know, to make a change. You know, I look back and wish it didn't take that much pain to make a turnaround. I wish there was a shorter cut for other people who, you know, maybe they want to change or maybe they think they should change

to actually, you know, find the grit and determination to do so. I think decisions are made, you know, based largely around that whole pain and pleasure. You know, if one thing feels better than the other, that's most likely the thing that you're going to do. You know, so if there's any, I don't know if there's anything to like be taken from that, maybe it's, you know, spend more time in the, in that unhappy place. Right. Just to, just to get clear on like, this is really what I don't want. And then you can go around and start taking the steps to get to where you do want because it

is possible you know um i'm living example that that a life sentence can't hold somebody down and at the same time i don't think everybody's taking that path yeah it was good talking to you man very nice talking to you rich how do you feel you feel all right i feel okay i feel like we've been talking for a long time we have been talking for a long time i feel like i want to go running i brought my stuff you did all right uh i did too cool um thank you man uh my heart goes out to you i have a lot of empathy or sympathy i should say not empathy because i i can't imagine what it is to walk a mile in your shoes and so much respect for all the hard work that you put into changing your life and my hope and my wish for you is that you continue to be a beacon of

light for those that suffer and continue to share your story of hope and transformation and rehabilitation, because it's powerful. And there's a lot of people out there that are suffering. And I think you can be of service in a very fundamental, profound way to a lot of people. So thank you for sharing your story with me today. Thank you. Cool. And if people want to connect with you, they want to learn more about Fitness Monkey and what you're up to, how do they do that? What's the best place for people to go? Sure. Chris at fandom.com.

Email you directly. Sure you want to do that? You're going to get a lot of emails. I heard. I heard you had a pretty big following. Cool. And are you on any of the social medias? Yes.

You are? I'm on Facebook and Instagram at Nuke Schumacher. Nuke Schumacher. And we should say, because it took me a beat to learn this, there's an extra H in your last name that's easy to overlook. Yeah. Should I spell it? Yeah.

S-C-H-U-H-M-A-C-c-h-e-r yeah it's that u-h in the middle there that might trip you up so make sure you do that correctly cool man all right thank you cool talking to you peace how are you feeling right now how did that one land for you it's pretty intense i get it but i really appreciate you listening all the way to the end. I'm sure Chris does as well. And I think that was an important conversation to have, and I hope you agree. Do me a favor, let Chris know what you thought about our exchange. You can find him at Nuke Schumacher on Instagram and Twitter,

N-U-K-E, Schumacher with three H's, S-C-H-U-H-M-A-C-H-E-R, and Chris Schumacher on Facebook. If you'd like to support our work here on the podcast, there's a couple of simple ways to do just that. Just tell your friends about the show or your favorite episode, take a screen grab of it, share it on your favorite social media platform, tag me, subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, on YouTube, wherever you enjoy this content. Leave a review on any of those platforms, that's helpful. And you can support the show on Patreon at richroll.com forward slash donate.

I wanna thank everybody who helped put on the program today. Jason Camiolo for audio engineering, production, show notes, helping me with the scripts on the intros, the interstitial music, and also additional music today by my pal Moby. Blake Curtis and Margo Lubin for videoing the show in general, not today, but in general.

Jessica Miranda for graphics, DK, David Kahn for advertiser relationships, and theme music as always by Analema. Appreciate the love you guys. I'll see you back here in a couple of days with a great conversation with Brian Koppelman. Very much looking forward to sharing this one with you. Brian is a former music business executive

and record producer turned writer, filmmaker. You may know him from Rounders or as the co-creator of the show Billions on Showtime. And we had a great exchange. It's a good one. So until then, be kind, be compassionate, be empathetic, be cool. Peace. Thank you.