The Rich Roll Podcast - Selema Masekela Is The Action Sports Evangelist

Episode Date: April 12, 2021

How do you find life purpose? How do you challenge self-limiting beliefs about identity and potential? Before you can answer these questions, you must first find your tribe. Our instrument for this inward voyage is the voice and prophet of all things action sports, Selema Masekela. For the uninitiated, Selema cannot be defined as any one thing. He’s a badass surfer, snowboarder and skater. He’s a beloved television commentator and journalist, best known as the face and voice of ESPN’s X-Games, a show he hosted for thirteen years. He’s a filmmaker and Emmy-nominated producer who has collaborated with many a media outlet, including E!, NBC, ABC, NatGeo, RedBull Media and VICE. And he’s a social activist, passionate philanthropist and accomplished musician. But more than anything, Selema is a truly gifted storyteller. An extraordinary human with a truly unique and compelling backstory. And a relentlessly curious narrator of the human experience. Today we break bread. And let’s just say you’re in for a ride. This conversation recounts an extraordinary life well-lived. It’s about the confluence and influence of music, art, water, creativity, and storytelling. It’s about race and athletics. The progress many industries need to make to truly be accessible and equal to all. And how sport holds the power to break outdated paradigms. It’s also about giving voice to passion. Amplifying narratives less well told. And a love affair that spans a diversity of interests—from late night Birdland jazz session to dawn patrol barrels. But more than anything, this exchange is about carving out a life that aligns with your passion. It’s about community and the experiences shape who we become. And it’s about connection and the things that make us uniquely human. FULL BLOG & SHOW NOTES: bit.ly/richroll594 YouTube: bit.ly/selemamasekela594 Warning: Selema’s story is one for the ages. Peace + Plants, Rich

The first time for me was a piece that I did with the inertia. That was the first time that I just like really talked about what it's like to be a black surfer in this world. And that was the first time that I got people being like, what are you talking about, bro? Like, we've always been cool. We don't see color. I'm like, yeah, that's actually the problem. You don't know what it's been like for me, and you've never asked, and you don't care. I got let go from a surf shop that I always wanted to work at as a kid in Oceanside because the owners literally told the managers,

he doesn't fit the image of the shop, and it's going to be bad for business. So tell him that it's slow, and we had to let him go. And people many times feeling uninhibited to tell me that I shouldn't be out there and using the n-word etc etc getting people to understand that like it's uncomfortable and it being uncomfortable is a good thing you know and be okay with like the fact that this is uncomfortable because if if we can all be uncomfortable together, then we actually get to move forward. You know, you got to be willing to do the work and also realize, like, this isn't a box that you're checking.

It's not like if you could do this, this, this, and this, you're good. Do you as a person want to live in an energy that is anti-racist? Are you down for that as like, yes, I think that's who I am. If you're down to work at what that is and what that means, realize that it's work that you're going to be doing for the rest of your life, but it can be joyful and pleasant because you are doing the right thing. You literally making the choice to be like, I'm going to live my life in a direction of being anti-racist is literally saying, I'm going to help change the world. My name is Salema Mabena-Masakela, and you are listening to the one, the only, the insightful, the joyful space, the Rich Roll Podcast. The Rich Roll Podcast.

What's up, earthlings of the internet universe? If you're looking for The Rich Roll Podcast, I can indeed confirm that you have found it. Thanks for dropping by. You're in for it now because today, the voice, the prophet, the evangelist of all things action sports, Salema Masichella is in the house and it is glorious.

I know all you surfing and action sports junkies are down with this dude, but for the rest of you, Salema is many things. He's a badass surfer, skater, and snowboarder. He's a beloved television commentator, a journalist, a host, and an Emmy-nominated producer, best known as the face of the X Games. Over the years, he's also worked with E!, NBC, ABC, Nat Geo, Red Bull Media, and Vice. He's also an activist, a philanthropist, a podcast host, and I gotta say, an incredible musician with an absolutely insane backstory.

But most of all, he's this really gifted conversationalist and storyteller, all of course, incredible ingredients for what I think is coming up quick, a truly memorable podcast. But first, let's take care of business. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic

to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care, especially because unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices.

It's a real problem, a problem I'm now happy and proud to share has been solved by the people at recovery.com who created an online support portal designed to guide, to support, and empower you to find the ideal level of care tailored to your personal needs. They've partnered with the best global behavioral health providers to cover the full spectrum of behavioral health disorders, including substance use disorders, depression, Thank you. I empathize with you.

I really do. And they have treatment options for you. Life in recovery is wonderful, and recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. Okay, Salema. So, here's the thing about Salema. Not only is his life story unbelievably compelling, his ability to tell it is just all time. Some of the stories you're about to hear

are gonna crack you wide open, I think. So this conversation is about all of that, of course, but it's also about challenging and changing the limiting beliefs that we all hold about ourselves and our purpose in the world. It's about race, inclusion, and diversity in action sports, the influence of music, art, and surfing in Salima's life. And it's about ultimately the things that shape us,

carving out a life that aligns with your passion and making a positive impact on others. This is an unbelievably compelling conversation. I think you guys are gonna enjoy it. So let's do the thing. This is me and Salema Massakella. Let's rock. I'm so envious of your setup. It's good, man. Well, welcome. Let's rock.

I'm so envious of your setup. It's good, man. Well, welcome. We're all super happy to have you here. I've been looking forward to this for a long time. And it's interesting about how you came to be here today. I think it was around December, several months ago, within a period, like a span of about three days, at least three different people brought your name up to me.

Russell Nadal at Jaybird. Wow. And Caroline Burkle, who you know from Deuce. And oh, my boy DK, who's friends with like your neighbor or something like that. Like your name just kept coming up. Oh yeah, he's friends with dad. Like, oh, do you know this guy?

And then, you know, that resulted in some emails that ended up having you here today. But the message that I get from that, like I've just learned over the years when the universe is speaking in that kind of way, you pay attention, like you abide, right? How do you feel about that? I wholeheartedly abide by that.

I literally just, I sent that text off to someone this morning that I was trying to get on my podcast. And they responded. I'm a DM person because I don't have a booker yet. So I'm like, all right, like DMs have consistently work. If I send like a genuine message, it doesn't hurt that there's a blue check there

that maybe they'll pay attention to. And this guy hit me back today and he's like, I'm so humbled that you asked, like, here's my team's email. And if we can make it work, we will. I was like, no problem, man. I will hit up your team and the universe will handle the rest. Well, the DMs are the way to go.

I don't have a booker. It's all about that personal connection. If that person had been on the receiving end of an email from a booker, they might've just dismissed it. But you reaching out to that person personally, that leaves a different impression. I agree.

And it took me a while to get comfortable asking, reaching out to people to collaborate on anything. I suffer from a bit of imposter syndrome in my head sometimes about like, am I worthy to engage with this person who I admire? And I really had to work to get over that, to be like, feel confident in that there's something there.

Reach out the worst thing that anyone can say is no. You and me both brother, but it's so funny hearing that from you because, you know, and that's kind of like a theme or a thread that shows up periodically throughout your story. You having to overcome that aspect of yourself in order to make your way. But looking at you now, it's like, you're the dude,

like who's not gonna respond to your DM. On paper, it seems silly that you would lapse into that kind of self judgment. It's a continued work in progress. And I've had to really like take the time to dig deep to choose to be like, okay, where's this come from? Because sometimes it can, as you know, it can be wildly debilitating

and you can cut yourself off from so much joy just because of this voice that you would never be friends with. If that voice inhabited a body, you'd have nothing to do with that person. Right. Because it exists within you. Sometimes it can literally just like, for me, sometimes it can literally just like,

for me, sometimes it could literally like take over, like be like a cloaking device and I'll forget, I'll get lost in between like what's real and what's that voice. Yeah, I can't tell you how many times I haven't reached out to somebody because I'm scared or I think they don't wanna hear from me. And then ultimately something happens years later

where I do and they're like, what's your problem, man? I feel so seen right now. Where do I Venmo you for this therapy? I'll be Venmoing you my friend. Yeah, it's funny. I mean, I've heard you recount your story a couple of times and that does show up throughout it. So do you mind, can we like do this?

Can we start at the beginning? Sure. We got time, man. We're gonna take our time today. Let's go. You don't have to be anywhere, do you? No, I literally blocked out the afternoon for you. All right, cool.

Taking it all the way back to you as a kid, I mean, your background, your origin story is so super interesting and dynamic and diverse, the way that you were brought up by two very different parents that, looking through the rear view mirror, it all adds up, like it all makes sense. But the fact that you ended up where you ended up

like seemed so strange compared to where you came from. It's wild. It really is. I mean, I grew up, my father was a political exile from South Africa and a musician and a freedom fighter and activist because of being in exile, he never took citizenship any place else.

So he had the opportunity to take roots in America or in the UK and he chose not to. And he chose to through his music, be a person who was going to fight for the end of apartheid when everyone else is like, oh, you're crazy. What was the vibe around him in South Africa before he migrated over to the US? He was just starting to bubble. You know, he was a young talent that had been playing

the black music circuit in South Africa. And he was just starting to bubble, but he hadn't exploded yet. He was in this band called the Jazz Epistles that he had with a few friends and they were making noise. And they were also making underground, they were making music with white kids that were of the same mindset, which was totally illegal.

So he wasn't famous yet, but he was very much on the radar of the police and the secret police. So he had to split. He had to split. They showed up at my grandmother's, his grandmother's house, I think a day or two after he left the country

looking for him. And it was the kind of thing of like get arrested and or die while being in captivity. Yeah, how old was he then? He was 19, 20. Wow, wow. So he comes to the US and does he, where does he come first to New York?

He goes to New York first. Yeah, he goes to New York. Cause you guys ended up bouncing around quite a bit. New York dead of winter, never seen snow before. Very African kid in 1959, 1960. Was there anyone, you know, when he landed to greet him? Like, did he know anybody? Was there any extended family or anything like that?

So Miriam Macaba, who's a prolific musician and singer and activist, she came first. And Harry Belafonte had really acted as a mentor for her and helped her establish herself here. And she told Harry like, hey, there's another guy who's amazing. His name is Hugh. You got to get him here. And so my dad went to London for a short time and then Harry sent for my father, sent him a plane ticket

and brought him to New York. That's pretty dope. And enrolled him in the Manhattan School of Music and acted as a mentor to him and was really, I owe Harry Belafonte basically my existence. Right, have you spent time with him? Did you know him? Yeah, I know him well.

I spent a lot of time with him growing up. I mean, he's always been my uncle Harry. Yeah. And yeah, I was actually, right when COVID was hitting, I was actually going to sit down with him to do like a master interview about his lens into my father's first showing up.

Yeah. Cause my dad passed three years ago. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was just the anniversary was a couple of days ago, right? His birthday was a couple of days ago. Oh, right. It was on Sunday, April 4th. And then his anniversary was January 28th.

And you don't get used to it. You know, it's a grief hits with different signatures and notes that are sharp and flat as the dance continues. It sounded like it was quite a rollercoaster for you. It was crazy. Like when it happened, it was really, really, really crazy. Yeah, but- But when he passed, you guys were good.

We were great. Yeah. When my father passed, we were best friends. Right. You know, we had gone through all of our shit. We had really developed a beautiful, beautiful friendship. Starting, I'd say around 30 is when we really got to know, know each other.

And we became boys, you know, like really boys and mutual supporters. He really became a supporter of mine in what I was doing. And that meant the world to me. Musically too, right? I know he's on one song. Yeah, we did a song together. We did a song together in 2016 for my last album. The song was called In An Age. And that was always a dream of mine, you know, to get to work with my father. But I didn't ask him. I never asked him. The first album I made, I didn't even tell him I

was making it. Because of the imposter syndrome? Because of the imposter syndrome and because I think my dad forgot, I know he forgot that I was musical as a kid. I think that part had just like left the story. And he only saw me as this, you know, this surfer, snowboarder, skateboarder now. And inside, I always felt this itch, like I gotta get back to music I got to get back to music. I got to get back to music.

And so in 2011 is when I started making my first record. Right, right, right. I played it for him. I gave him a copy of the record, and he called me. And he said, man, you know, I listened to this record, man, and it's beautiful, man. I forgot that you could sing like that he said it's you know he said if I could sing like you man I wouldn't I wouldn't even

bother to sing anymore I would just play my horn and that was just like you know I never thought he'd ever see me that way you know yeah I gather he wasn't a guy who was easy with the compliments. I was scared shitless of what the review was gonna be. Like he easily would have been like, I'm proud of you that you finally scratched this itch and I hope you never do it again. Like he would have been very lovingly said like, don't mess up the name.

Let's forget that this happened. And then the next thing that he said to me was, you just got to promise me one thing. I said, what? He said, if you decide to do this again, man, you better fucking call me to be on the next one. And he was legit pissed that he wasn't on the album. And that just broke my brain. I'm like, what? He's like, yeah, man, I got to be on the next one.

Let's do some shit together. So I called him for the next one, and he was in South Africa. And he said, I'm coming over. And he bought a ticket, and he came and stayed for two weeks and came to be on the record and we had a blast. And it was just like, that was just like, you don't know that you're ever gonna get that with your parents.

Like I never would've, could have ever imagined that I get to get that with my dad. It's beautiful, man. I listened to the song the other day, I love it. He's, I assume he's the one playing. Trumpet. Playing horn, man. Yeah. I listened to the song the other day. I love it. I assume he's the one playing. Trumpet. Playing the horn, yeah. He's the one on the horn and rapping.

Oh, really? Oh, he's rapping too. So I wrote that rap for him. My cousin Sonny and I, we wrote the rap for him because he had a song in the 80s called Don't Go Lose It Baby. That was a big like dance hit, English dance hit. And I remember being in the studio with him and he was excited that he was gonna rap he's like i'm i'm doing that rap thing man you know i want you to be here with me and i'm a kid i'm like 11 12 and i'm a hip-hop kid

what are you doing dad and he goes in there he's just like spits fire like drops these incredible bars and like the song ends up being a huge hit. So when Sonny and I were working on this record, we were like, let's do an ode to, an ode to Don't Go Lose a Baby for him and see if dad's still got bars. And he comes in at like 74 years old and just drops fire.

So for him to be rapping and me singing over it, it's just like, it was beautiful, man. It was really, really beautiful. Yeah, he really made a name for himself. It seems like it didn't take that long. Like he was playing with everyone. Yeah, I mean, his contemporaries at the time, as a kid, when he came to New York,

it was Dizzy Gillespie, it was Miles. He came in straight into the bebop scene and going to Manhattan School of Music, he was in the mix with all these musicians. They went to clubs in the daytime and sat in and played, and it was a whole different energy. And the thing that was interesting is that those musicians would be like, we love that you play our shit,

that you play like the bebop, but like, they'd be like, play some of that African shit, man. Play us some of your shit. And he thought that he, when he first came here, that he needed to be this bebop dude. And they're like, nah, man, do your thing with this. Bring your shit to our thing, yeah.

And that's why he was able to create what he did because no one else had it. And he basically was the father of what you would call world beat music as a result. And he came out to LA in like 66, 67. And he and Stuart Levine, He came out to LA in like 66, 67. And he and Stuart Levine, who was his classmate, a Jewish kid from the Bronx, they became best friends. They moved to LA together.

They started a studio and started a label and they started making records. And then Don't Go Grazing in the Grass was like the rocket launcher in 68. Right, and that's around the time you were born. I was born here. I was born here in 71 in Los Angeles. But you guys jetted back to New York though.

Yeah, my mother. So my dad was like, my dad was getting after it. It's the late sixties, early seventies. I'm trying to draw a mental picture. It's the late sixties, early seventies. I'm trying to draw a mental picture. He was cutting a figure. He was getting after it. And also like, as you hear many of those old timers say that the drugs were good then,

and they had yet deal with like real consequence from the drugs. It was just- Well, there wasn't an awareness of the consequences like there is now either. So it was just part of how you lived. Yeah, yeah. And he's dragging you along, right?

You're in all these clubs and around all these cats. Yeah, well, as a little kid, you know, when I was just a baby, he's dragging my mom along. And my mom reached to the point where she was like, I love you, but I'm not raising a baby like this. And so she breaks out to New York, goes back to New York and we moved with my grandmother.

My grandmother emigrated from Haiti. My mom came here when she was like probably six or seven years old. And then my dad comes a few years later and sets up shop in New York City. And I didn't really come into like knowledge, knowledge of him as my father until about four or five years old. That's when like I have my presence of him being my dad.

So he was this cool guy who was around, but I didn't really get it. Connect the dots on that. Because I left at such a formative, you know, like two is when we left. And so my earliest memories with my dad are like in the club. Like on the weekends when my dad had me, he was playing gigs and I was in the club,

five, six years old, you know, bouncing around from table to table at two in the morning, talking to adults and like watching my father like really steal people's souls. And I fell in love with his magic from a little kid. Every time that I got to go to watch my dad play was the best, cause I would just be there in awe and each time felt like the first time.

Right, and to see everybody else in awe of him as well, that must have been profound. To see them the way he could command, win a crowd, really story tell, like the time that he took in between songs to explain to people why and how a song came to be and tell stories about South Africa and this place that he missed so desperately

and make them feel a reason to care and wanna know more. Because at the time, most people don't realize it, but America was very, very much a solid supporter of the apartheid regime. Yeah, we were very late to the party in terms of reckoning with that. Late, late, late. In fact, current president Biden

was like one of the first people to step up and put the entire Senate and Congress on blast. Like be like, no, we can't do this. And here's why there's a really legendary speech. If you Google like just Biden, South Africa, where the Republicans are trying to- Oh, the one from way back in the day. Yeah, way back in the day.

Yeah, I've seen that. He's like brand new, I think. Brand new, he's a young dude. And he's like, nah, this doesn't stand. And that was radical at the time. It was very, very, very radical at the time because our government was very much in allyship with the apartheid government

and did a very good job of being like, it's not racist what's going on down there. It's just, it's necessary. I mean, the natives, they're wild, they're Africans. Yeah. And your dad felt so strongly about it that he never got citizenship in the States, right? He maintained his South African citizenship. He maintained his South African citizenship. Man without a country. Because he knew that one day it was going to end. And his thing was like, as soon as this shit is over, I'm going home. And literally like as soon as president, then the clerk realized, like, if we don't start to bring these expats home and like the South African country was a tinderbox, you know, the violence and the protests of a majority indigenous

of African people being ruled by a minority, white people and the laws were insane, like insidiously evil. You had needed a passport. Like let's say for me to come from Venice to see you today. Just to travel from town to town. I needed a passport. I needed a reason. And I needed to be out of here by like 7 p.m.

Right. And if I got stopped or pulled over, the first thing that they were gonna say is like, show me your passbook. Why are you moving from, why are you not where you live? You know, that was just one of the things. And the only reason why I would be moving someplace where I didn't live is because I was coming to work for you, essentially.

And that was just one of the many, many things. I mean, my father's family home was like raised and torn down in the late 40s, early 50s. And they were my grandfather who had done well, who was a social, who was a work for the government and was a sculptor and an artist. And my grandmother who was a social worker, like they were, they had a life. And this picked our whole family up and put them in a township and said,

we're going to reserve these areas for- She took their property. Yeah, took their property and like, you know, peace out. So yeah, I mean, I'm always fascinated by my dad's belief that his thorough innate belief that this system will be overrun and will end and I'll go home. Right, it's a deep conviction that fueled a certain strain of activism in what he did, in what he expressed in his music,

how he carried himself, the decisions that he made. And I think about that in juxtaposition to your own career. And it's interesting, your relationship with activism is different. Like you're somebody who's unique in the sort of power that you wield and the situations that you find yourself in being one of the few black people in a whitewashed world,

but somebody who is always, and please correct me if I'm wrong, seem to be more interested in making things work and fitting in and not drawing undue attention to the racism that you experienced. And it only is in sort of recent years or perhaps even in the past year where you've kind of shouldered this mantle

in a way that perhaps your father would have related to, right, with Black Lives Matter and everything that's happening in surfing, et cetera. Yeah, that is an accurate lens. When you are an only operating in a space where 99.9% of the people don't look like you, especially as a young person, you work very hard to gain acceptance.

And I sacrificed a lot of myself in order to stay close to what I love doing and figured out how to win people over, how to gain acceptance, how to be allowed in. It took me a very long time. I moved to Southern California when I was 16 and surfing and snowboarding changed my life. and snowboarding changed my life.

It took me, I'd say about a little over a decade to like, like, wait a minute. Why are you at this? This space is yours just as much as it is theirs. Right. And this idea that you have to keep like making yourself smaller and also put up with like consistent micro and also like outright aggression because of my race.

And that aggression also could be in the form of jokes and people wanting to like, you know, really highlight the fact that I'm different. But their interest in my being different stopped at my skin color. And there was no curiosity around who I was, where I came from and why this experience might be different for me than it is for you.

Right, in the commentator space, this idea that there's some tokenism at play, like let's get the black guy in here. And then surprise when you actually knew what you were talking about. And then shock when people discovered that you actually could do all this stuff that you're commentating on.

All of those things, all of those things. I mean, people used to come up to me and stop me all the time as I really started to like gain notoriety via the X games and be like, I think it's just genius that ESPN, you know, has put you in this position. What was the teaching process like? Because clearly you don't do those things,

but you're so knowledgeable and the way the athletes react to you, it's almost like they know you. It could be that you're actually part of the community. And you'd be like, well, I actually, I'm a snowboarder and I'm a surfer and I come from skateboarding and like I've been doing this a very long time. And so I'm actually super qualified to be here.

Oh, well, isn't that cute? But you just along the way, just trying to make it work. You try to make it work, you try to make it work. But then like, there are things that happen behind the scenes as you're dealing with an already shitty business. Like the entertainment business is not, it's not a noble place to play when it comes to like the power wielding that networks and platforms have and you being a talent being very disposable.

And it's doubled down when it comes to race and gender. It's just, it is what it is. race and gender. It's just, it is what it is. I mean, I can't tell you how many times I'd be going out for jobs where an agent felt comfortable to say to me, like, yeah, you know, that is a great place for you, but they already have a black guy in prime time. We should think of someplace else. I'd be like, did you, you hear what you just said? Because there's one person on that network that looks like me in a sea of white people, we should go someplace. They've already checked that box. That box is checked.

And I dealt with a lot of that boxes checked and people thinking that because, that ESPN had like, had a magic golden box check in my being the host of the X Games, in my becoming this voice and face of the culture. Like it was organized and I didn't like bleed for it. And I wasn't answering the phones as an intern at Transworld Skateboarding and Snowboarding Magazine

and biting tooth and nail to stay as close to the culture as possible. biting tooth and nail to stay as close to the culture as possible. Do you feel like you sort of suppressed those emotions that came up with that experience just to get along? I did. Get along to go along. Like, I'm thinking about the, I watched the speech that you gave at the paddle out

over Black Lives Matter and George Floyd, where I don't know how many people showed up for that. Looked like thousands, thousands, couple thousand surfers. And you give this incredibly emotional, powerful, poignant speech up on the bluffs before the paddle out. And it was so like moving and authentic. And I wondered whether that was the first time

that you ever kind of gave public voice to what you were experiencing. And it felt like a Rubicon to me, like you'd stepped over a certain line and decided that enough is enough. And now I'm gonna shoulder some responsibility, given the position that I'm in to speak to these matters. Yeah, the first time for me was a piece that I did

with the inertia probably about seven, eight years ago. That was the first time that I just like really talked about what it's like to be a labeled as, to be a black surfer in this world. And that was the first time that I got people being like, Hey, that was, what are you talking about, bro? Like, we've always been cool. We don't see color.

I'm like, yeah, that's actually the problem. And you don't know what it's been like for me and you've never asked and you don't care. You don't know what it's been like for me and you've never asked and you don't care. People thinking that they're well-meaning when you're out on a boat trip and it's late in the sun setting and you're paddling back to the boat

because you're one of the last people in the water and someone thinking it's cute to be like, "'Smile so we can see you. You know, that type of shit. And it was, there's just endless versions of what that's looked like for me. And like, you know, like I got let go from a surf shop that I always wanted to work at. And as a kid in Oceanside,

because the owners literally told the managers, like he doesn't fit the image of the shop and it's going to be bad for business. So tell him that it's slow and we had to like, he doesn't fit the image of the shop and it's gonna be bad for business. So tell him that it's slow and we had to like, let him go. Like, you know, things like that, that just like, as in your teen years, it just so you're like, wait, what? So yeah, I think that moment speaking up on the bluff

in the midst of like so much that you've just like contained and not shared to like, as you said, move forward and keep the peace. The idea that people would see me as a lot, I would hear people be like, when the conversations first started happening in the action sports space, I'd see people publicly like use my name to be like, well, we have Sal Masekela, you know, back when I went by Sal. Like, what do you, and I'd be like, wait, you think I'm some sort of like force field for the massive amount of like just whiteness that exists here that you could, you'd like shine me as some sort of like power ring to tell people like, look, see, we have it taken care of.

Everyone relax. He's the loudest, he's the most prominent face in our deal. That takes care of it. Like, well, where are the people in the playing field getting to live this lifestyle and culture? And why is it that that exists? You know, and I think before outwardly speaking, like that one, that time on the bluff

and obviously in the wake of Ahmaud Arbery, George Floyd, Breonna Taylor was like a very, in the midst of COVID was a very like, I mean, history is gonna look back at like a time when in the midst of like the most distracted that we've ever been because of this crazy new digital landscape that we've created. This augmented reality that is like an infant that we're all just learning to play in and can just be busy, busy, busy, busy, busy. Someone's IG live, TV, this and that. Like literally, like I don't have to pay attention to anything because there's always something

to take my attention. COVID happens and just shuts all that shit down, right? Everyone's attention, our level of connection is heightened because we're all going through the thing together and no one, no matter how much money, race, whatever, nobody can hide. You are affected. Whereas we're all existing in the same thing for the first time and I can remember. And then having Ahmaud Arbery, having George Floyd,

having Breonna Taylor happened and people not being able to hide or ignore it, it meant that whatever any, the response was going to be something you didn't have a choice but to pay attention to. And whatever subcultures and subgroups that have been able to like just quietly exist with the imbalance and sort of accepted light to medium racism,

as well as just complete lack of inclusion that all like, there was no place to hide. I did ended up being this very interesting like halogen blacklight, right? That like whatever space it's like, no, we're gonna talk about it in this space. Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think you nailed it with that. This crazy Petri dish where everyone's stuck at home

and we have to contend with this thing in a very real and uncomfortable way that one would hope or aspire would unite us and in truth ended up really kind of elucidating the extent of the divide that exists. Really did. And always has existed. It sort of brought all of that out

underneath a political environment that gave permission to a lot of- Full license. A lot of dark voices. Full license. So- Leading up to that paddle out, I live in Venice

and the initial protest that became strong engagements with the police and the ensuing looting that took place, like that shit was happening like a few blocks from me. Helicopters overhead 24 seven,

gunshots popping off. There was a a murder you know um the shootout with police like two blocks away from my crib like shit was real and i remember there was a shot of um a surf shop in santa monica that was being looted. And there were white people that were- Were looting it? Which one, ZJs? It wasn't ZJs. It was a place on the promenade or in and around the promenade.

But anyway, there was a shot like, and it included white people running out with surfboards and wetsuits and all sorts of shit. Whilst you're hearing this growing, like really bigotous audience within the action sports space, like really being like, look at those people, look at the blacks, look at the Browns,

look at what they're doing and da, da, da, da, da. And like this righteous anger, this righteous conservative anger that was taking place already because of COVID and now like a real opportunity for like blame. And so I posted a clip of those white people, you know, running out with surfboards and jumping on the back of like jumping into cars and jumping on the back of scooters and stuff.

And I was like, where are y'all now? Where are y'all now? Where are y'all now? And- What that comment section look like? Woo. It was lit up like the 4th of July. I mean, I can't tell you how many DMs from people being like, hey man, like we've always accepted you and dah, dah, dah, dah, and why are you like, I'm like, what? Why am I like demonstrably black in the midst of injustice? Do you all not know where and what I come from? Like, oh, you thought that I feel like I won something

to gain, to have received your approval for how I live? No, we're not doing that anymore. And it was definitely the time for me where it was like, who are you the son of? Right, that's what I was gonna ask. Like, at what point does the legacy of your father start to work on your unconscious to motivate you to step into this?

I mean, obviously on some level it's bred into you. And I would suspect that there have probably been times in your younger years where you thought my dad would have handled this differently or why am I not stepping up in the way that he did like following this example that he set which was so courageous. Definitely, didn't know how.

And I also had the, there was a confliction in how I was raised because as much as my father was- You were pissed at him too. I was a little bit, there was like this partial, like he was my hero and I was also pissed at him because he was battling addiction. And the clear side effects of what that means in a father-son or any parent-child relationship.

And then on the other side, my mother and stepfather were raising me as a very, very hardcore Jehovah's Witness where I'm going to church three to five weeks and it's super conservative on every level. And I'm knocking on people's doors every Saturday morning and telling them like, you know, listen to this so that you can make it into living forever.

And your mom's like a big organic. Yeah. And my mom's a proponent, right? She's putting you on the Venice health trip, you know. My mom's putting me on the Venice health trip in the seventies. And my mom was like, my stepfather was the conservative, like the ultra conservative one. And then my mom was-

He was the Jehovah's witness. Yeah, my mother was Jehovah's witness too, but she was also like- I'm marrying this guy. It was also like, you know, like I'm also like hardcore into my alternative medicine. And like, if y'all think I'm a witch, cool. But like, this is my shit, you know?

So she had that little bit of- That's a fucking brew for you to come up in. So all of that intertwined together, you find yourself and then you add to that, like leaving New York City at 13, 14 years of age, where I am in the midst of like a multitude of race, the gender conversations already handled. Like I got my friend with two moms.

I got my friend with two dads, like all that shit is done. Like you have real knowledge of people's immigrant stories and their cultures and their music and their food and their song and all the things that makes them them. And like that's enriches your community and it enriches how you live and you're celebrating each other. So you just figure like the rest of the world is that way.

And then you move, my mother and stepfather moved to consistently very white spaces. First in New England in the end of my junior year of high school and then to Southern California where none of that existed. I mean, it's like going to the moon. Literally. From being in New York City.

They thought I came from space. I'm at the club with Miles Davis. Right, literally. Yeah, literally. Right? Yeah. And then you're in Carlsbad, like where it's just strip malls and the beach.

Yeah. So strange. And what's interesting about your New York experience, I mean, you're steeped in the arts, you're studying acting, you're doing gymnastics, you're hanging out with your dad, you're doing music. I mean, it's such a robustly culturally diverse experience. Like most athletes, they are kind of reared to be athletes

and artists are reared to be artists. And you have this very strange, unique combination of these two worlds that make you fascinating. You know, I wonder had you never moved to Carlsbad or to New England and you just stayed in New York City, what life would it look like? Like, would you have just become a musician or an actor or a filmmaker?

I mean, you're doing a lot of these things now, but without the snowboarding and the surfing. I think that's where my head was. I wanted to go to LaGuardia. I wanted to go to the art school. The Fame High School. Yeah, I wanted to go to LaGuardia. That was my goal.

I played basketball. I was athletic. I did gymnastics as a kid in New York, but like I wanted to be in the arts. I didn't know how I would get there because of like running up against this wall with my stepdad, but that was what I was always fighting for.

I played in the band and the Philharmonic all the way from like elementary through junior high school. We were competitive. Like our band would compete against bands all through the city. Like that was just a part of how we grew up. And that changed when, you know, when we moved, I think I went, when we first moved to New England, my junior, my freshman year, they didn't have like a Philharmonic or a jazz band. So I was like, all right, I'll go out for the marching band. And they're playing shit that we were playing like five, six years ago.

And I'm wearing this flammable polyester thing with just white people. And I was like, I can't do it. Why did you move up there? Was it like a church thing? My stepdad, it was a semi-church thing. My stepdad wanted to, he had aspirations for sort of moving up in the church and he wanted to go to a congregation that needed more help, more people like him.

He was a fantastic speaker, like kind of like a funny dude. And also like he had a way of like distilling like Bible talks into like real every man kind of speech. And he was really artful with it. And so he was popular, you know, and he liked the idea of becoming, you know, he wanted to be like an overseer. There's just like different levels. You could be a servant and then you become an elder

and your goal would be like to be an overseer. And that's what he, so he raised us to be like, hey, this is a theocratic family and this is our main goal. Anything else is extra. And if any of those other things are getting in the way of this thing, they're out. And was there like a Puritanism to that as well? That was at odds with, you know,

hanging out in the jazz clubs. Oh my God. Right. When I would go to see my dad, I would have to, I literally would have to like spend a day like reintegrating and like taking off my church version of myself and being okay. And my dad would like encourage me and be like,

don't worry about, you don't have to be square here, man. Like just, you're cool. And I'd be like, really? Like, cool. You're hanging out with jazz musicians who are smoking weed and talking all sorts of shit. And I got to like be witness to like these incredibly talented, unedited human beings. What do you remember about that?

Like, do you have memories of interacting with Miles Davis? I do, I remember the first time I met Miles, you know, he's real like, you know, raspy and talking about, you know, your father and you're a cool boy and you're like, I didn't know what that was at the time. But then years later you're like, That didn't know what that was at the time. But then years later, you're like, That's insane.

Oh my God. What? Like I knew that guy, you know, Stevie Wonder. I mean, just endless, endless people of that era. And, you know, Herb Alpert, my dad was making records with Herb Alpert, so many different people. But that switching gears, like that chameleon-esque, you know, kind of skin that you had adorned

to go back and forth between those two very different worlds. Now the people pleasing thing kind of makes a little bit more sense. Yeah, I'd go home and I just have to like switch it up. And my stepfather was watching to see if I brought any of it home. And they definitely was another like reintegration

into how I acted around my friends and how I acted at church and what I could and couldn't talk about. And then like how I acted at school, was definitely a dance. And God forbid your friends find out that you're one of those Jehovah's and then they're gonna have a field day with you.

Or you knock on, you know, you knock on someone's door and like, there's your friends that opened the door. And they're like, what are you doing? Like what? Right, but at the same time, being in Carlsbad and not New York City freed you from the long shadow that being Hugh's son would have been like for you

had you stayed in the city. Totally was. No one knew, no one cared. Like a teacher or two who was like well-versed, my English teacher, especially, who I'm super grateful for, my English teacher in my senior year, Mrs. Frank. If I wouldn't have had her, I don't know what would have happened.

She was the one to be like, hey, come here. I see what you're trying to do here. And I can imagine it's hard, but also like I see what you're made of and I know what you come from and I ain't gonna let you like bro out. So you are, we are going to mine. We're gonna mine you for what your worth is

because I see it and I will not let you hide. She's not gonna let you dumb it down to hang with the Grom's. No, absolutely not. And she was a gift. She was the one who really like helped me see that I had a potential beyond and not to let the place take me over.

But yeah, there was this freedom and like, oh, no one knows or cares who my dad is. This is cool. And as I've said many times, surfing really became my music. Surfing and snowboarding especially. I was skating at the time a bit, but surfing and snowboarding really became my music.

They became how I dreamed and how I thought about everything. So snowboarding, I assume, came into the picture when you moved up to New England? No, snowboarding came into the picture when I moved to Carlsbad, because Big Bear's only an hour and a half away. Right, right. So I started surfing. Six months later, everyone's starting to snowboard. You know, a bunch of friends say like, hey, we're going snowboarding. The first time I went snowboarding,

I was wearing a full suit. Right. A full suit and Sorrells. Well, I wanna walk us up to the point where you're first introduced with surfing. My understanding is that your first sort of glimpse of it was when you went on tour with your dad, right? Yeah.

So he gets picked up by Paul Simon to go on the Graceland tour. And you're in Sydney, right? Yes. My dad took, I hadn't seen my dad for about four and a half, five years because he had decided to go and make music in Africa. Like he couldn't go to South Africa,

but he just had to be on the continent. So after my fifth grade graduation, he just like pulled up and was gone. Like I got a saxophone for my birthday and then I didn't see my dad for like four and a half years, which was a trip. Like we'd write letters, talk on the phone once in a while, but he was on a quest.

He was AWOL. Trying to get as close as possible to the thing as possible. And- He's a real artist. Yeah. At the time you don't- There's repercussions to that.

Yeah, you also don't understand like, what are you, what? Where are you, man? Like, I'm dying over here. Like, you don't understand what they put me through. And we went to go see him. He reached out and said he was on tour with Paul Simon. At this point, like,

Call Me Al is like on MTV every day. Like that album's blowing up. It was huge. Huge. How did that, was he on the album too? So he wasn't on the album because Paul went to South Africa to make the album. But my dad made it possible for Paul to get into South Africa and coordinated the musicians for him to work with.

And Paul was making that album in secret in South Africa, which is crazy. Also like Paul Simon is a gangster, like a real G. I'm trying to remember what the state of apartheid was at that time. Peak. Yeah. Peak like back.

So he had to do it completely undercover. On the low. Wow. And in exchange, you know, to acknowledge what my dad did to help facilitate that, he not only took my father on tour, but he made him a headliner. He shared, so it was the Graceland tour.

And then the headliners were Paul Simon, Lady Smith Black Bombazo, Miriam Makeba, Hugh Masekela. Wow. And that is how Paul, that's how every poster was. That's what the billing was. And the entirety of the show was him storytelling how important this music was and then giving the platform and the stage

to these African artists to shine. Super, super, super progressive. And he was taking a lot of shit for it. You know, there were people who thought he was being exploitative. I remember being in the press conferences where, you know, they would try to jump on my father and be like, you know, isn't he a culture vulture, et cetera. My dad would be like, what are you talking about, man?

Like, do you not see what we're doing here? a culture vulture, et cetera, my dad would be like, what are you talking about, man? Like, do you not see what we're doing here? We're sitting here in this international press conference and we're talking about South Africa. Like this is gospel to people to be concerned, to be curious, to wanna know why, and to start demanding of their governments to not like wanna participate in this thing.

And it really, I do believe that that was a huge part in shifting the world's consciousness about apartheid. 100%. It is complicated though, because the argument is obvious that, look, here's a white guy, you know, so he's gonna be the one who's gonna introduce all these forms of music to the world.

But in truth, that's what he did. And he exposed, he gave a level of exposure to a certain type of music and provided a cultural lens on a civil rights and social dilemma that was going on in a manner that could not have been achieved otherwise. There was no- But he's still a white dude, kind of taken a bunch of black people.

Yeah, and he was gonna take, he was down to take the heat. But they were playing the music. They were playing the music. That's the that's the difference between, you know, Elvis or the Stones or something like that. I mean, they were all playing the music and my dad had his back. It was amazing. Like their relationship was very special.

But anyway, we went to go see that show in New York, my mother and I, and to spend a couple of days with my dad. And Paul Simon was the one who just said, you should come on the road with us. And I looked at him and I laughed. I was like, what? There's no way my parents are. He's like, well, I think you need to spend some time with your dad. I'm going to talk to your mother. And I remember backstage, it's like, the third night I see Paul, like he talked to me about what he was going to do. My dad had told Paul, like, there's no way. His mother won't allow it.

Don't even ask. And I see Paul in the corner, man, doing his thing like this. Gee, and my mother loved him. And I saw her. She's not going to say no to him. Yeah, she was like, uh-huh, uh-huh. I saw her nodding. And we went back home to New England.

I remember that fight. I remember the debate between my mother and stepfather. I was in my bedroom, like listening with my ear to the door. I could hear the screaming and I knew my mom had won. Like there was a silence. I didn't hear my stepfather speak anymore. I was like, this shit might be happening. And he came by, I'm never afraid.

He walked by me and he said, "'Well, I guess this is what you want. "'So good luck.'" I remember when he drove me to the train. Like this air of disappointment. Total disappointment. When he drove me to this train station to go take the plane to New York,

to go get the Amtrak to New York. It was one of those scenes where it wasn't like, it was silent. It was like, bye. You know, like he had taken the L with my mom and I was just like, yes. What an insane life experience. It was the greatest experience, Rich.

So you were like for three months, right? On the road? Yeah. It was like almost famous, the movie. Like it it was kind of it was a lot like that i saw a lot of things that i probably shouldn't have at 15 and a half but i also experienced so so much i mean we're playing like 20 30 000 person venues three four nights in a row, sold out. Wow.

You know, watching my dad just like destroy, you know, dad and I are hanging out, we're playing tennis every day or basketball with Paul. And there was, when we were in Sydney, we were in Sydney for like a week and a half and the local crew, you had your roadies that were from the States and then we'd pick up local crew in every city.

And one of the guys there had a surfboard and he would always have it backstage in the rigging. And I'd walk by it and I was fascinated by it. And I'd just like bug him, like, hey, what's that? And he told me about it. I was like, I wanna see that. Like, can I see that? Can you take me?

And he'd be like, yeah, mate, yeah, mate. We'll take you, I'll take you, I'll take you. And finally he was like, I wanna see that. Like, can I see that? Can you take me? And he'd be like, yeah, man, yeah, man. We'll take you, I'll take you, I'll take you. And finally I was like, I can't take you, man. I'm busy, but you know, told me like where to get the ferry and where I could see it. So I'd set out one day, took a ferry to Bondi. And you know, he told me exactly where to go.

I bought a sandwich at this little sandwich shop and I sat down on this bench. And sure enough, that afternoon, two kids right around my age come walking by. They're holding these boards. I'm like, all right, cool. And they paddled out, waves were maybe like two, three feet

and they put on a show. And the first thing to me, I was like, these kids are break dancing on water this is dancing on water there's this freedom I could see it detect like the expression I was a b-boy kid so I knew like you know there's this that flamboyancy of like taking a move and making it your own and I'm like that's what they're doing on the surfboard I'm like I don't know where or how I I'm going to do that it was it was It was such, it's burnt into my brain. And then a year later, I come home from the tour.

A year later, I come home from school one day and my stepfather says, sit down. I'm like, what's up? And since in April of my junior year of high school, we're moving to California in two weeks. Your mother doesn't want to be cold anymore. What are you talking about? I have a girlfriend.

Like I finally like figured out how to live here. What do you mean? I'm on my third high school as it is. Right, and you're looking at your senior year. Yes. You're gonna start a new school for your senior year. For your senior year. Yeah.

You're gonna finish out the last like five weeks in a new school for your senior year. For your senior year. You're gonna finish out the last like five weeks in a new school of your junior year in a new place. And there was no point of reference for what Carlsbad was. I literally looked up in an encyclopedia. Got some reference. There was a famous dirt bike track at the time. Why did they choose Carlsbad? Was that a church thing too?

It was a hybrid. I think they had made like a compromise between the two of them. My stepfather again wanted to like, and the church is very organized. So you could literally like pick where you wanted to go. If you were at that point, my stepfather's an elder, where do they need help? And my stepfather's aspiration was that we were gonna go move there and then we were gonna go serve in a Spanish congregation because my stepfather's Puerto Rican.

But didn't you get into some trouble in Australia that caused a little consternation with the church? I got into trouble in Australia, but I got into what caused consternation with the church wasn't my trip to Australia. I was young enough and I wasn't baptized yet. So I didn't really talk about the shit that I got into in Australia.

It was a few years later when I was 19, when I went to South Africa on my dad's tour, on his homecoming tour. That's what caused the consternation with the church. Where I got- You had to come clean. Had to come clean, conscience is burning a hole in you about what you did with who.

Not well received. Not well, I got kicked out. I got disfellowshipped from the church for- That's the term, disfellowshipped? Yeah, for about a year. Where no one could talk to me. That's rough, man. I had to move out of my- If that's your community. Yeah, I had to move where no one could talk to me. That's rough, man. I had to move out. If that's your community.

Yeah, I had to move out of my parents' house. Otherwise my stepfather was gonna lose his position in the church. When you were 19? 19, yeah. Wow. That was a real one. That was a real one, yeah.

But you moved to Carlsbad. Moved to Carlsbad. And we wake up in the morning and you're in this place. Like when we drove in that night in the U-Haul and then that next morning you wake up, walk out the front door, this smells different. I never smelled this before. And look up and like, this air feels different.

Palm trees swaying and I remember looking, panning right slowly and I recognize that we're on a hill and about two miles away a mile two away is the ocean and I'm like huh okay I still don't there's no point of reference about surfing I'm just taking in where we're at and like literally in that moment as we're unloading the uh the U-Haul, my stepfather and I, like a kid comes driving by and a purple Honda Rivo scooter with a full waterfall haircut, a tank top t-shirt,

board shorts, sandals, and a book bag between his legs. And I'm like, what is that? What kind of alien? What, I literally was an alien. And then my mind'm like, what is that? What kind of alien? What did I literally was an alien. And then my mind is like, is he, he's going to school? What? And a couple of days later, I go enroll in this school and everyone's dressed like that.

And I'm like in literally like in like Timberland boots, jeans, I look like I've come from another planet. Everyone's speaking in this weird dialect and said, dude and bro and bra. Right, you're like Run DMC in their Spicoli. Yeah, exactly. And I met some cool kids at, when we went to church, my stepfather, my mother was genius.

She was like, sure, we'll do your Spanish thing eventually, but we're starting in English. She also had no intention to ever. She's crafty. My mother's crafty, super crafty. She was like, all right, sure. But also like the compromise part was like her alternative medicine crew was like running heavy

in SoCal. Like she could be amongst her people and not be a weirdo. Her alternative medicine crew was like running heavy in SoCal. Like she could be amongst her people and not be a weirdo. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. North County, San Diego. She's right where she wants to be. Right where she wants to be. And she bought a store, a sight unseen, a business from a woman who was in,

worked with like one of the same herb companies that she dealt with. And that was, we were supposed to be moving to a place that had a storefront. It turns out that the storefront was literally the garage of this woman's house in a cul-de-sac on a hill that had literally no foot traffic at all.

And there's no like Instagram to promote your business. And it was like, oh, well, this is different. My mom, you know, realized like, oh, I'm gonna have to build up a whole clientele and that was a whole thing. And shout out to my stepfather, you know, for as much as we had a lot of shit that like, you know, it was a challenging relationship on many levels.

He didn't have work and he went out and became a day laborer to help make shit work. He was out working construction on construction sites, making whatever, $15 an hour and pretending like everything was good. That's rough. $15 an hour and like pretending like everything was good. That's rough. But it was rough before he was able to like establish his thing and he started a pest control business cause that's what he did back East. But these kids that I met at church went to my high school

and it turns out they were all surfers. And a couple of them were like deaf. They weren't like super holy. They were like, we're cool. And this kid, Justin, he invited me to lunch the next day at school and I was so stoked to meet some kids that were cool. And you could leave campus to go to lunch,

which I'd never experienced before the East. Like we go to school, you're in prison until it's time to get out. And we went to this beach parking lot after we'd gotten food at a place called Carl's Jr. that I didn't know existed. And we're sitting in the car in the back of his, I mean, I'm in the trunk of his Subaru hatchback

and the car's packed with everybody like, you know, eating. And they're looking out in the lineup. And I look up and I'm like, no way, surfing. And these guys are speaking in the language, talking about what they're seeing, waves and swell. And I'm just sitting there quiet, like what? I'm flashing back to a year ago in Bondi. And I was like, hey, I've seen this before.

And they're like, whatever, dude. I'm like, no, I was in Australia last year at Bondi beach. And they're like, now wait, what? Pre-internet, like Bondi beach must've been like Oz. Yeah, I've seen it in magazines and movies. And also mind you, there's like couple thousand- You're the least likely guy they would ever imagine. There's two other black kids in the school.

One runs track and the other one plays football and I've shown up and they're like, what are you talking about? And then I would tell them my story and like Paul Simon, my dad, like, what, who are you? Like, I'm like, I wanna do that. Like I saw this and I was like, if I ever get a chance, I told Justin, like, I wanna try it.

And he's like, all right, be at my house on Saturday. And that's how I got to experience surfing. Yeah. Went there and they had a wetsuit and board for me and put the wetsuit on backwards. Everyone laughed and whatever. That was it. You ended up surfing like 170 days in a row, right?

Without missing a day. Yeah, I surfed. So there's a, you were committed to figure this out. The first time I stood up was like for five seconds. And it was literally like, I had gone to church thousands of times, prayed in groups, in large conventions and our three different religious meetings.

I never ever felt spirituality before. I'd never ever felt spirituality before. I'd never felt a soul calling like I did at 16 and a half standing on a surfboard for like five seconds. The time stopped, everything changed. It literally felt like whatever some spirit poured into me. And when I came up after falling, I screamed as loud as I could. And my whole life just pivoted.

And it was like, okay, this is everything now. And I'd never, it was the greatest. You had that clarity. I had that clarity. It was the greatest spiritual awakening that I could have ever asked for at the time. Yeah, I mean, we could talk for two hours about the spirituality of surfing,

but what's interesting is that it was etched into your soul in a way that almost makes it sound like some kind of past life thing. Like when you have that experience in Bondi and then when you actually connected with it. I mean, first of all, you have that experience of Bondi and there's a knowingness about your path

on some conscious, unconscious level. Then the universe conspires to move you to, you know, the epic surf spot in America, like completely. I mean, nobody could have predicted a set of circumstances that would bring that about. And then the manner in which you just go all in on it from the outset, like it's wild. In retrospect, yeah.

You know? Yeah. I mean, it just was, it just clicked. It's like, oh, this is me. Everything associated with this. I need to just soak. I would go to the library at school and read back issues of Surfer Magazine. Like I had to learn the culture the origins

everything and as you're coming of age and you're dealing with all the challenges of your teen angst and then the extra layers of that were particular to my family but every kid had a version of it surfing became this mega oasis for like, none of that mattering. Like the ultimate freedom of expression of like, that was the one place that I could express myself wholly that I couldn't do with my mom and stepdad. And I couldn't even do with my dad.

Like surfing literally was that place where I could just express, and stepdad and I couldn't even do with my dad. Like surfing literally was that place where I could just express. Even though I had the tensions of a community that thought they were the definition of the thing and that they were allowing me to visit in their space and people many times feeling uninhibited to tell me

that I shouldn't be out there and using the N word, et cetera, et cetera. None of that could actually get in the way of the thing. Like when I stood up to do the thing, there were no voices except mine. Wow, wow. Yeah, meanwhile, your dad is modeling this example of being fully expressed in his artistic voice.

You have your stepdad and your mom kind of modeling their version of trying to connect with God or being spiritual examples and you finding your own version of these two things in a completely unique way that probably confounded all of them. Every, right. You are so, you're so accurate, bro. Like they were flummoxed.

Right. My mom, stepdad, dad, aunt, everyone was like, what is happening? You know, I had a chance to get into a really good school because my dad's sister is an incredible academic and she had some relationships and she was a professor. I'm like, no, we can get them in. It was a historically black college on the East Coast.

And I just was like, I have no interest. What? historically black college on the East coast. And I just was like, I have no interest. What? Like my dad, I'm working construction part-time, I'm cleaning offices at night. Like I'm doing whatever I can to like support my shred habit. And my family's just like confused. Working to live.

Working to live. I think it's hard for people. I mean, I'm a little bit older than you, but it's hard for people, I mean, I'm a little bit older than you, but it's hard for people to remember or to understand how different that culture was then than it is now in the sense that it wasn't a career path. There was nothing that you could kind of aspire to do professionally in this world whatsoever.

It was just a habit that you needed to feed, right? It was a lifestyle and you found ways of supporting yourself so you could do the thing. And that's kind of where it ended. That's exactly it. And my whole, everything about me was like, how do I stay close to the thing so that I can grow in it? And I had plenty of friends who left and went to school

and put the boards away and then came home and got good jobs or their parents had like had some little slush waiting for them and they got married and- But there's also all those guys that are out in the lineup that are doing that thing too, right? Yeah. Guys who are like 20 years older.

Yeah. They've been at it for a long time. And they, life's hard on those dudes. Yeah, life's hard on those dudes. Yeah, life's hard on those dudes. But, you know, when I would show up in the, I really got into Dawn Patrol and I'd get up, you know, especially when I was doing, when I was in the janitorial business,

I would clean these offices and car dealerships all night. And then I would time it so that I got off right when the sun was coming up. So I could be first one out, good conditions, empty lineups. So I'm this young dude who's trying to play catch up. I can need to surf as much as possible. I didn't have the convenience to be like, oh, it's blown out or whatever.

I'm just there out there every day. And I'd be out. So you get the old dogs who they're in this space of like, well, I don't know much, how much longer I'm gonna be getting to do this. So I'm here every day, right? And they've, they've built their life around the thing and had the ups and downs with it. And I'd spend, you know, those mornings like having coffee with these old, these old heads and seeing like their, they tell their stories and their love for the thing in the

midst of heartbreak, et cetera. And I was just like, I was so enamored with those guys because they just had no, there was no ego about the thing. It's like, it's where they needed to be, to be. And I had a, there was a kinship there in that surfing for me is like where I needed to be to be. And so it was just as hard as it, as when I look back on it,

like working two, three jobs at a time, et cetera, that shit was hard, but like the joy of like, well, this is what's always waiting for, this is what I've created the space for, made it so that it didn't seem weird to me that, also the idea of like, what are you gonna do later? It was like, there is no later, there's right now. And the relationship to doing anything professional was only in the context of like, what are you gonna do later? It was like, there is no later. Yeah. There's right now.

And the relationship to doing anything professional was only in the context of how it could serve the thing that you wanted to do, which was to serve. Yeah. Right. Which is the inverse of how most people look at career paths. Yeah, it was total, that's all it was. And therefore I worked every job almost under the sun, bank teller, et cetera, whatever that I could find a balance of two or three jobs that could support the space. I was good.

Mm-hmm. Do you think that there was a seed of aspiration underneath that though? Like, did you think my life, you know, is gonna lead me in a direction that's a little bit larger than this? Or were you just good? I was good. I think that going to South Africa to assistant role manage my dad's homecoming tour was definitely the thing that made me come home

and start to really like understand my blackness in this predominantly white world and like starting to claim my space. And then there was getting let go from that surf shop. That was a really like traumatic experience for me because I didn't know for a couple of months that that's why I got let go. They just told me that I got in slow.

It was like some other kid who was working there that his conscience was bothering him. And I had gone to school with him and he felt like he had to tell me so he could live. And that was when I kind of was at a crossroads where I was like, I don't know how, but like no one is taking this away from me. I'm going to figure out a way to get,

to remain as close to it as possible. But it was just really burned in that like, I'm not going anywhere. Y'all aren't gonna take this from me. Well, I wanna go back to that South Africa trip because we kind of glanced over that, but that seems like it must've been pretty profound, right? Like you're, this is basically at the end of apartheid

and Mandela has been released from prison and your dad does this tour there to essentially celebrate this changing of the guard. And you get to meet Mandela, right? I do. He's not president yet for a few more years, but everything about that trip was insane. Like was new and in many ways startling.

I had experienced various levels of racism in America, but I had never been, I hadn't yet to be into a place where like it was, the systemic part was still present and accepted as a way of life. The laws were just starting to come off the books when I got there. And South Africa was changing,

but it was still an apartheid system. And something as simple as like greeting a white person in the airport as you're waiting for your baggage and them looking at you like, why are you talking to me? Things that I took very much for granted at home. Every single person that's working in the airport is wearing like a specific jumper,

jumpsuit that's either blue or yellow that identifies them as a worker and they're all black and everyone else is white. Like, you know, all these weird things were like, oh, this is interesting, you know? But yeah, I got to, on the second day that I was there, I met my grandfather and my sister. That I was named after my grandfather

and my dad hadn't seen his father until he had moved there. He hadn't seen him for 25 years, 30 years. So it was all new for me. And like also like getting this now coming into this awareness of my South African-ness, like, oh, this is a part of me. And this is all kind of starting to well up now. But we were on tour somewhere

and my dad said we were going to a dinner and he didn't tell me what was going on, but he said it was important, I needed to dress well. And we're there and there's a bunch of different people there and people hanging, milling about. And then a door opens and in walks, you know, Nelson Mandela. And I'll just never forget like the, the way he took over the room without saying anything in the most humble power that I've ever witnessed in my life.

And he said a couple of hellos to people and then he walked straight up to me. And he said, hello, you must be Salama. And I'm like, wait, what? And he told me everything about my life up until that point and how important it must be for me that I'm getting to have this experience and how it was going to make a difference

and how happy he was for me that this is what I was getting and that this would be unforgettable. Yeah, it's heavy, man. And I realized that my dad had been talking to Mandela about me. It was, wow. Yeah, I mean, your dad's rolling deep with Mandela.

He's playing music in South Africa. This whole country is shifting and you kind of know, kind of, you know, fly home. You must've been thinking like, I can't, how could you possibly live up to that type of legacy? Right? You're working part-time jobs. You're living to surf. Are you starting to think like,

I gotta sort my shit out or I need to, you know, I need to like figure out my version of what my dad's doing or did you just release yourself from any of that pressure? I had an experience in Durban where the cops tried to arrest me for surfing. One of the things that I knew. They're famous for that there too, right? There's a lot of black surfers in Durban.

Now, but then there were none. Like the beach that I was at a few months before was a whites only beach. And from an economic standpoint, socioeconomic standpoint, no black person would have like, within that Durban region would have had access to surfing to even challenge the thing.

So here long comes me, who's just like dying to get to the coast because I know what North Beach is. I've seen the magazines. I'm familiar with the Gunston 500 contest. And I'm going to get to surf there. And I was so angry. I had experienced that by that point, so much crazy shit had taken place. Almost died because we got attacked and chased in our tour bus by a bunch of violently racist Afrikaner people who thought there were too many black people inside of a store that we had stopped in to get some provisions as we were driving to the coast.

We were in a big tour bus, et cetera. And these guys came and chased us in a pickup truck with guns and bats and knives. And it was only because of an army convoy that happened to be making a cross after they'd thrown their trucks in front of our bus to pull us over and attack. Wow.

That we didn't end up in a much worse situation. And so when we got to Durban, I was like, get me to the ocean. I had money in my pocket, walked into a surf shop. I walked into the Spider Murphy surf shop and I bought a 6'3". And they were just, people were just like, and I told them where I was from, et cetera. And I'm like, okay. And I had the cash, but I still didn't realize how strange it might be. My dad warned me. And the first time when I went to go paddle out and I came down the elevator

and the hotel was maybe like three blocks from the beach. Elevator door opened and everyone in the lobby stopped and looked at me. And it was people bustling business etc it was the the guests of the hotel and the black workers and i'm just standing there and it's like a standoff and i remember being like do i walk out do i not walk out do i walk out do i not it was that much of a moment and there was a really nice woman who was working behind the desk and she smiled at me

and I walked straight towards her and as I walked, no one like got back to what they were doing. They just all kind of stopped and looked and turned and she said, I see you're going surfing today. I said, yeah, I went to hand her my key. She said, have a nice day. I was like, okay.

And I handed her my key and I had my board and I'm in my wetsuit and I'm going to walk out and like everyone's gaze goes with me. I walk out on the street, I make a right to go walk towards the beach. And I hear, the car literally like stops.

And it's like, looking like what? People are like looking at me. I finally make my way to the beach. I paddle, I jump off the jetty and I get into the water. There's four kids that are about my age and they're maybe like 30 yards away and they're just looking in shock.

They don't say anything. They're just looking. My heart's beating like, waves are maybe about three or four feet. I'm like, okay, I haven't surfed in a couple months, but like as soon as a wave comes, motherfucker, you better stand up and catch this thing. Wave comes, paddle, get to my feet, don't fall,

new board, the whole thing, get down the line, feeling good, like, okay, kick out. And those kids just went, whoa. Crazy. They paddled up. It's like out of a movie. Yeah. And they're like, who are you?

Where are you from? What is this? And we start talking, and I'm telling them that I live near and I serve trestles and they're like, what? Do you, they know the way for their magazines. They're on the magazines, yeah. And that begins this thing.

And each day that I would go down to the beach, people would mellow out and they'd still be looking curiously, but like the people who were working the beach were starting to wave, I was getting the new kids. And on the fourth day I get there and I'm about to jump off the jetty and the waves are bigger. It's like real North beach, like cracking. I'm like, whoa, it's on. It's like real North Beach, like cracking. I'm like, whoa, it's on. And I hear, aye, aye, don't you know you're committing an illegal act?

And I turn around and here's this giant cop and he's got his shambok, which is like a rubber nightstick, like a heavy rubber nightstick. And he's in the backswing, like ready to come down on my head. And I just scream, I'm an american i'm an american prove it prove it you dirty fucking cop for the prove it i happen to have my passport in the sleeve of a board bag i bought with the board and i'm like shaking and i pull it out and he sees

it's american but he's reading my name salem abedin maslli's head's freaked out. And I've explained to him why I'm there, et cetera. And he said, we've been watching you. We've been watching you for three days. You think you're cute. You think you can come here and break our laws. I said, what do you mean break our laws? They sat for days trying to figure out how to stop this new South Africa

that they were witnessing from taking place. And they found an old antiquated law that says you're not allowed to jump off of the pier, the jetty to go into the water. Took them four days to come up with it. And then they said- They're trying to dig up some kind of law that they can hang it on you.

So they could set a trap. So they can get you out of there, right. They had police vans blocking the entrance to the jetty in case I ran. So each day that you're going out to surf are more and more people showing up to witness what's gonna go down. There's like building tension.

Yeah, there's people like that are on the pier watching and taking place, like taking pictures and stuff. Is anybody else surfing out there? Or no one's in the lineup? No people are in the lineup, yeah. Just no black people. Just no black people. Right.

No black people. And there was no law anymore that said a black person couldn't use the beach or surf. But no one had challenged it. They had to find some kind of technicality, like hanging the mobsters on Rico or something, right? Exactly. Like they got to do an end run.

Exactly. And that was a massive experience, you know. But they didn't arrest you. They didn't, they couldn't. I had American passport and then they figured out who my dad was and the size and scope of why I was there. And they didn't want an international incident. Yeah, it would have caused a major ruckus.

But they didn't let me jump off. They walked me off of the pier and kids are yelling at them from the water, to leave me alone. It was a whole thing. But that was like, I think the real seed planter. Have you gone back to Durban since then? Yeah, yeah.

I've surfed there. You should find that cop. I wish I could. I've been there since. I've surfed with all, there's an organization there now called Surfers Not Street Children. And there's just like a plethora of like young black.

Yeah, I remember reading something about that. Like there's a pretty robust young black surf culture in Durban. It's a huge scene and they still battle the conversation. A lot of the white surfers like to call it development surfers. Like it's like some sort of charity. And it's like, no, these kids are surfers.

They love this just as much as you. This is not some sort of like development thing. They're getting access and the tools has required assistance, but they're surfers like you are. And it's slowly coming around. Well, you've got this book that just came out, Afro. Afro Surf, yeah. And I haven't gotten a chance to see the book. I should have brought you a copy.

You know what? I thought about asking you to bring one. And then I was like, I'm not gonna ask him to. That's on me. But I want that book. Like I saw images of the pages online and it looks like just an incredibly beautiful book. Like the photographs in there are stunning.

And this whole idea that the first record of surfing was in Ghana in 1640, like blew my mind. I didn't know that. And so it's this whole revisionist history around surf culture and the origins of surfing. It really is. And it's 300 pages of African stories around the ocean and surfing from various countries

told from the perspective of the people who live there and shot written by the people who live there, shot by the photographers there. Like if I say like, if it wasn't for COVID, we probably would have done the book very wrong. You know what I mean? Would have like gotten like some great sort of head photographer, creative person to go

and like on these journeys and liaison with these people. But like we would have done it, but it wouldn't have been the right kind of right. Right, just getting the boots on the ground, people that actually are members of that community to document it for the book. Tell your story. We put together sort of a template,

because of social media, we had built great relationships with a bunch of different people around the various countries as surfing has really started to explode on the continent. And it's like, okay, we're gonna redefine this idea, the lens of the definition of what surf culture is. Because the idea of it being primarily

from this Southern California and South Australian lens predominantly, just there's just such a massive landscape and we're not telling the stories. Right, when was it first originally discovered to start going down in Hawaii? Cause that's the lure, right? That's the conventional wisdom.

I think it's like, it's Cook, is it? When Captain Cook arrived and he saw people. Yeah, it's Cook like I think in's like, it's Cook, is it? When Captain Cook arrived and he saw people. Yeah, it's Cook, like I think in the 1700s. Yeah, late 1700s. And what's interesting about that, right? Is that like you have missionaries like doing everything they can to like stomp out this, half nakedness and people like,

dancing on water and topless, et cetera. And then it being, you know, sort of taken and the story becoming that it's like a SoCal thing. You know, I mean, you think about- Yeah, whitewashing the indigenous roots out of the whole narrative. Out of the conversation. I mean, people don't realize like Duke Kahnemuckel was like,

he was outspreading the gospel, Out of the conversation. I mean, people don't realize like Duke Kahnemuckel was like, he was outspreading the gospel, like showing people and teaching people the thing. He went all over the world to do so, but he wasn't, he didn't die like a rich man. You know, he was less celebrated than people think. He wasn't, it was much later that he got the bust, et cetera. And we came to revere what he did. And there was definitely a bit of like an assuming

and taking over of the idea of the culture. And which because of like all the other inherent problems and histories of, especially in America, when it comes to black people in the ocean, it's very easy for people to think like, oh, black and brown people don't like, that's not where they play. It's very, when I first-

They don't even know how to swim. Yeah, when I first told a kid at school that I was going to learn to surf, he looked at me and was like, but bro, you people don't even know how to swim, dude. Like, what do you mean you're gonna learn to surf? And he was concerned for me. Like, don't even know how to swim, dude. Like, what do you mean you're gonna learn to surf? And he was concerned for me. Like, don't you know?

Yeah, that was coming from a good place. Yeah, like a PSA. And, you know, this, I had a very, very well-known, extremely talented, iconic surfer, not too long ago, tell me like, well, you know, surfing doesn't have any responsibility towards like expanding the landscape because, you know,

you're not, you and a few like you are an anomaly, but it's like not a part of black culture. I'm like, do you not know or have any clue the manner in which this country worked very, very hard to make people think that like they're living in the areas that they do where no one else lives that doesn't look like them is because of hard work. Like, do you not understand the history of redlining?

Do you not understand that they used to take dogs to the beaches in California, in Florida, in the Gulf and chase black people off the beaches. Like that's part of our legacy in this country. That story that just, that is just coming out now about Manhattan beach. Bruce's beach. Right, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Explain that, cause that's super interesting. And it's about reparations. It is, it literally is a classic example of reparations where you had this black family, the Bruce family that were like, yo, Manhattan Beach, dope. Let's settle here. Let's start businesses here.

Let's make an oasis where black people feel like we have a piece of this ocean lifestyle and culture. This is also us. Right. And for people that are listening who aren't familiar, Manhattan Beach, I guess technically it's part of LA, but it's really not. It's a true beach community that's south of Los Angeles.

And when you're there, it's like, it's a world unto itself. And it's also extremely white. Very, very, 97% white and very well off. And it's a lifestyle. You drive through Manhattan beach and you're like. You don't go anywhere else in LA. People who live there, that's their world. Why would you?

Like, what are we gonna get on a freeway? Like, do you see how we're living? It is amazing. It's a place that you drive through and you're like, I want this, this is awesome. And there were historically, there were black people in a black family, especially who were like, yes,

we want to live this life too. And people worked very, very hard to make sure that their businesses were challenged, that they were burned. They did everything they could. But a lot of those black families, they bought up a bunch of real estate, right? So they had some primo real estate. It was like a beach club.

And it was very much, there was a black culture thing going on in Manhattan Beach at this time. Yeah, and it was rocking. And a strong majority of white people were like, nah, you can't live like us. So we're gonna do whatever we can to shut this shit down. Burn businesses, get people to boycott, you name it.

Until finally they convinced the city to just take the land, take it and kick them out. Yeah, it was like an eminent domain thing. Yeah, and that's literally like where the lifeguard station is today. Right, so now the issue has come up recently because there's an initiative. I don't know, you probably know where it's at.

I'm not sure where it's at right now to basically make reparations to that family who had their land taken from them to build that lifeguard station. Yeah, to essentially either give the lease money to them, to the family, figure out what giving some of the land back is, but the idea that the city has proposed it is huge.

Right, I mean, it's huge in and of itself, but it also sets in motion a precedent for how to handle future, you know, or other incidents that are similar to this, of which there I'm sure there's hundreds of thousands, right? Yeah. Probably unlimited examples of this kind of thing. And it's very easy for people,

I think in this country who have been the beneficiaries of a really shitty education that made sure to filter out a lot of how we've come about and a lot of why we do have these broad gaps between the races in America. It's very easy for people who don't know any of this to be like, well, you know, you just gotta work hard.

You know, my family worked hard and we did this. And why are we still talking about this? I don't see color. Well, it's very easy for you to not see color if you don't know the history. And if when you come into the knowledge of these darker parts of our history, if when you come into the knowledge of these darker parts of our history, if when you come into that knowledge,

your first reaction is to look the other way and double down I'm sorry for you, but like you being uncomfortable at it and wanting to think that it's a myth doesn't mean that it's gonna go away. And until we just accept and come to grips with it, like and make sure that like that's teachable so that we don't go back to it and we can get to a point of real equality,

we're gonna continue to run through this cycle because people are gonna feel threatened right at the idea of equality, meaning I'm going to lose something. Right, it's that zero sum game perspective. And there is a lot of fear around that. People don't wanna be challenged in their worldview or their assumptions about where they fit in this equation

if it means that they have to reckon with something that they've never really had to look at. Yeah, and in the last year, I've had a lot of people, a lot of businesses reach out to me to be like, hey, how do we have this conversation? And it's getting people to understand that like it's uncomfortable

and it being uncomfortable is a good thing. Be okay with like the fact that this is uncomfortable because if we can be all be uncomfortable together, then we actually get to move forward. Right, but a lot of black people like yourself who wield influence in certain subcultures are getting those phone calls right now from brands saying, help me through this.

What are we supposed to say? What are we supposed to do? Right? Yeah. You know, and you're like, oh, okay. Now, you know. Yeah, I mean. Now you want me to be your marketing department. Right.

And it's, I mean, the way my phone was ringing off the hook. Last summer. I can imagine. I had to turn my phone off at a certain point. And you're having- You're the one guy in surfing. Like they're all gonna call you, right? Yeah, and there are others who came,

you know, I gotta say they're- I guess it's better they're calling you than not calling you. Yeah, but also like me being- It puts you in a weird situation. Very weird situation and me being like- It's not your responsibility how they message their customer base and community.

And me being like, I'm happy that you have decided to come into this awareness. Also, there's a link in my bio of a whole toolkit of books, movies, and things you should watch and digest before we're gonna have a conversation. And then if you wanna have a conversation with me as far as your business is concerned, and your intentions are actually like to change culture,

then we can figure out a way to engage in exchange because doing this kind of work that is not like, I don't wake up in the morning and wanna talk about race. Not that I want to wake up in the morning and want to talk about race. Not that I want to wake up in the morning and like go enjoy life and pursue my passions like everyone else. And it's a real, it requires a lot of mining of shit that is uncomfortable and not even uncomfortable,

it's painful to get other people up to speed. So I just say, you gotta be willing to do the work and also realize like, this isn't a box that you're checking. It's not like if you could do this, this, this, and this, you're good. Do you as a person want to live in an energy that is anti-racist?

Are you down for that as like, yes, I think that's who I am. If you're down to work at what that is and what that means, realize that it's work that you're going to be doing for the rest of your life, but it can be joyful and pleasant because you are doing the right thing to, you literally making the choice to be like,

I'm going to live my life in a direction of being anti-racist is literally saying, I'm going to live my life in a direction of being anti-racist is literally saying, I'm going to help change the world. And when I think when people realize that it's a life switch then it becomes far more sobering. Cause they realize like, oh, this I'm gonna be learning. You mean I'm gonna be learning about this for the rest of my life?

I'm like, yeah, that's what we're talking about here. Yeah, man, it's heavy. It is, it is heavy. And it's heavy in that like there are these just insidious forces that for whatever reason they're within the agenda politically, like can just come through with like a giant flamethrower and just be like, and just gaslight the whole thing. Mute it out. Just mute it on out. And you're like, fuck.

All right. You know, like the last four years of what we dealt with was insane to have the, I don't think people realize what it was like to have the largest voice in the known world. Be able to be like all this stuff that is being said. It's not a thing. You make sure that you you be american like you know how to be american to have to have like the most powerful voice in the world very codedly reinforcing and making it your right to engage in in bad behavior because it makes you feel better and helps you to cloak your fear. I was, it's wild.

But that kind of permission slip also gave rise to the conflicts that we've seen and the civil rights uprising that was incident to that. Which has brought all of this out into the open for us to discuss and whether we're gonna see our way through it to a better, more, you know, habitable space for all of us remains to be seen. I mean, right now the Derek Chauvin trial is going on.

I'm actually going to, we're going to Minneapolis next week. No way. Do some interviews there. I'm gonna interview the mayor and a couple other folks. Wow. So we're gonna be there. I don't know when the trial's gonna end,

but that city's ready to blow. And I think whatever happens there is gonna- You saying that. Tell the tale in terms of what's gonna happen next. You saying that just gave me such chills cause I was sitting at home last week. I watched a little bit of it, but it's too traumatic for me to watch,

like to really sit in. And I thought to myself, like, if this thing goes the wrong way, I, If this thing goes the wrong way, I couldn't even begin. Yeah. I can't. I think it's a good chance it's not gonna go the right way.

Yeah. Heartbreak wouldn't even be the, I don't know what i would have left like honestly like that's one of those things where i'm like i've been through so many of these you know where you're like is this the one time where we're going to get actual the justice advertised uh that we that we have in this country, like the advertised version of like, well, you know, let our incredible justice handle it.

And then if, yeah, I can't even begin to comprehend what that would be. It literally like, it hits me in places within my body that I didn't even know I could register. Yeah. You know, that kind of like, fuck. Time will tell, something's gonna happen. I hope not.

I also like, I'm just like, I mean, I know what this country is built on. We know the history, but I'm like, for the people who really really hold on to this idea of supremacy or hold on to this idea that in order to be an American, if you're not a white Christian male, we're going to need you to walk as closely to what that looks and feels like in order to be accepted, in order to be an American. This is the lens of what an American is. And if you can't figure out how to walk to as close to those imagined guidelines, then we're at an impasse. There are people who wake up every day and that's their goal.

That's their charge. With an idea that like, yes, my whiteness and my inherent Christianity that I believe this country is founded on gives me the right to dictate how everyone else should be and live. And you're not gonna tell me about what happened wrong to get here

because that doesn't matter because, you know, flamethrower, this is the greatest country in the world and nothing's going to change that. Well, the greatest country in the world is also immensely flawed. And I don't care who you pray to, that's a fact. And until we collectively get into the business

of wanting to move forward together, we're just gonna, it's asinine. Well, I think we're at a crossroads with all of this. And I vacillate between, you know, kind of the pessimistic sentiment that you just expressed and, you know, a sense of hope and optimism. You know, I do see diverse voices making an impact in the world.

I see these subcultures opening up in interesting ways, perhaps not as quickly as it should, or not in a manner that is being as welcomed as one would like, but I do see change happening. I mean, when you think of surfing, where are we in terms of diversity or inclusion? Like I remember who is the woman? I think she's Australian who before she had the

Black Lives Matter board and that caused quite a ruckus. Like a lot of people weren't happy with that. But that's a bad-ass move. It was a power move. And I love that it was a woman that chose to do so and was the first voice. Yeah, it's like a Kaepernick kind of move. Yeah, and that it was, that it took, you know.

Explain what she did for people that don't know. So Tyler Wright, two-time world champion, in the midst of COVID as Australia was getting more open, they decided to run a couple of events there for Australian professionals. And it was her first time back to competition in a long time. She'd been dealing with an autoimmune disease

that had a very, very, like whatever long COVID is, she had like the most extreme version of what a long COVID would be, where her body just would not reset. She had to do a lot of work. And she basically was out of the water for almost two years. And first event back to compete, she shows up at the beach, two-time world champion,

one of the faces of the sport. Right, white check. White check with the bottom of her surfboard says, Black Lives Matter. And she sits and kneels on the beach for, it wasn't eight minutes and 46 seconds, but it was nine minutes and change in, she tied it to indigenous murders in Australia of indigenous and Aboriginal people who had been murdered by the police.

Like that was the number of people. And it was nine minutes and change that she knelt with her fist in the air, with a board that said Black Lives Matter. Then she paddled out, mind you a heat is only 30 minutes. She paddled out and she smoked her competitors. So she conceded literally a third of her time. Third of her time.

And then went out there and just crushed the other two women who were in the heat. And Surfer Magazine and Stab and the Inertia and all the platforms posted this photo. And the comment sections, This photo and the comment sections, it was the level of vitriol and hate. And clearly, like, let's face it, hate is just fear, right? It's just really well-cloaked up fear. People were so terrified by the act of this young woman who was like body is barely there in recovery,

like making this stand. You could go look in the comments today and you'll just be blown away. And I think that was the craziest part was like, there's no place for this in surfing and we don't see color here. And like all of the like the panic, you know, knee jerk responses to like,

ah, I can't believe this is happening here. Virtue signaling, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. Like all of this shit that I met, I actually feel bad for those type of people. Like if that's where it comes from for you. But the hardest part was seeing people that you know within that being so, so, so, so triggered. And it was definitely one of those things where I was like, I've been trying to tell

y'all, cause I've obviously been very, very vocal about this specifically in our community in the last year. But that was a moment where I was like, sips the tea, you know? Pinky out. Pinky out, like we have a problem here. And the- So how did the world of surfing reckon with that in the aftermath? They're reckoning, you know, the reckoning is long. That was only like maybe six, seven months ago. But I see it at least at a brand level

and within the platforms. The platforms are opening up and learning that, you know, this for so long, the culture of surfing has been through the lens of professional surfing, which is like 60 people that are the best in the world, men and women, like going around the world and surfing at the highest level.

The idea that like surf culture has to be about that aspiration to touch that solely is crazy. Like surfing is so much bigger than that. And I think that the brands and the platforms are starting to realize like, oh, there's actually more audience. There is an upside to us here as far as engagement and economically to expand different storytelling

and reach out to different audiences for what this thing is. Yeah, it's not only the right thing to do, it's in their economic self interest. And for me, I'm like, yo, if it being good business is your starting point, okay. I wish that that's not what it has to be, but like, cool. That gets us on, on the road. And I'm seeing a lot of hopeful potential for what this can be. And the younger generation is also like, well, I have no time for this. Like

what's, what's happening here. Yeah. And also it's, it's really just a matter of time until they inherit the whole situation. And you know, my inclination is that it's gonna be a lot better when that happens. I agree. And there's also like, because of social media, you have all of these different marginalized groups that have been like, I'm not gonna wait for you all to tell my story.

We're gonna tell our stories. And so you have like all these great groups throughout the entire landscape of the outdoors who are like, this is how we live the thing. And now it's just so cool to see that I see it in surfing. There's this really, really great group of women called Textured Waves. I never thought that I would see surfing told

through the lens of like black women specifically. And if you go and you look up Textured Waves, like you get the coolest new beautiful, like just a different end of the thing that you can't help but be inspired by no matter who you are, what place you come from. Right. You know, and it's across the landscape

of snowboarding, mountain biking, just the outdoors and adventuring and people learning that these spaces were purposefully cut off to people of color. Like it was the last sort of safety barrier in the wake of segregation where they were like, we're losing everything to this integration. Ah, the outdoors.

Keep them off the beaches. Let's keep them off the beaches and out of the mountains. At least we'll have that. We'll make these elite spaces. And we're finally at a point where people are like, not anymore, not anymore. We've been gone almost two hours. We haven't even talked about it.

I don't think I said the word X games yet. We haven't even talked about your career. Well, I really enjoyed this man. No, it's cool. Cause yeah, I thought, oh, we're gonna, we're gonna kind of walk us, we're gonna walk through step-by-step all these cool things that you've done,

but we had a much more interesting conversation, I think. Yeah. Cause we're still at, we're still at you bus and tables in the chronology. You know what I mean? Yeah. We got time though. I mean, I do wanna tell the story of how you kind of,

had your kind of breakthrough moment that led to this amazing career that you've had. And it goes back to the people pleasing thing, right? And this sense of, this sort of lack of self-worth that you battle with. Yeah, you're speaking of when I got, kind of got the break at ESPN? No, even before that, like the first gig.

Oh, at the tramble. Yeah, when you're bussing tables and you got, the guy gave you the card, you didn't call the guy. Yeah, so I was bussing tables at a place called the potato shack in Encinitas. And that was such a good gig Saturday, Sunday morning, you know, get there like six work till noon, one o'clock

and guarantee go home with like $300. Like it was, there was never not a line for like 45 minutes and you're just turning and burning, turning and burning and just leave with cash. It was the best. And one day I was there one morning and this table came and they all had badges. It was actually midweek.

They all had badges for the ASR trade show, which was the action sports retailer show that took place at the convention center in San Diego, which is where all the shops and all the businesses all around the country and on the world would come to like see new product, write orders, et cetera, big deal. We'd heard about it, but never got inside.

And now I hear about these kids, these people around my age that are like, have these badges. And I told my friend, I said, you gotta give me that table. Greg Whipple, volleyball player, Canadian. I'm like, Whipple, gotta give me the table. He's like, no way.

I was like, I'll give you five bucks for that table. He's like, you'll give me five bucks for that table? I'm like, yes, dude, just stop talking. Yes or no. See, this is where I see, this is the ambition. Like you're like, yeah, I just wanna live my life, but no, there's something more inside of you. Yeah, I knew that those were my people. I just had, I just wanted to,

I wanted to know who they were. Like they were around my age, like they clearly were in the industry. I'll put $5 down to see what that is. And style them out, coffees, free orange juice, refills, et cetera. They were really stoked. They were on their way to the trade show. And the one guy started coming back on a regular basis.

We started talking, and finally he just said, what are you doing with your life? And I was like, what do you mean? He's like, what are you doing? I was like, oh, you know, I just do what I can to shred. I work here. I was working at the Belly Up Tavern in Solana Beach at night as well. Things are going decent.

And he said, you're too talented. Like every time I talk to you, man, I'm just like blown away. I see the way you deal with people and you can't do this forever. And it was a kind of abrasive, but it was hearing that kind of truth from like someone your own age and not your parents, that stings. You're like, ah, I thought like, I thought I was cool.

You need those guys. You need those guys to give it to you in that way. And he took out his card and he said, call me. He worked at Transworld. He worked in advertising. And Transworld for people that don't know, basically publication house for all these action sports magazines.

Bible of the sport. It was the internet of snowboarding and skateboarding, like the global Bible. And he said, we're looking for a junior ad sales rep and I would like to take you under my wing and train you. Like you're built for this. And I was like, what? Gives me his card, call me.

Living with three or four guys in Cardiff at the time, show them the card. They're like, no way. I'm like, dude, this guy wants to give me a job. I didn't call him for like three days. Yeah, he told you to call him the next day, right? I called him like three days. I was scared.

My roommates were like, did you call that dude yet? I'm like, what are you doing? Call him. Finally call him. Finally call him. And his name is Chad Dinenna. I call him and he's like, I told you to call me three days ago, man. We hired somebody already.

You blew it. Like literally he's like, you blew it. Sorry. Click. Crushed. I sat at my phone and I cried was like heavy lesson huh heavy lesson heavy lesson and then he calls me back two days later our receptionist mind you junior ad sales rep under and this guy's writing paper and boom industry's booming It's like 93, 94, the industry's booming.

Where Sammy calls me, so the receptionist has decided to go back to school and I can get you in, the rest is gonna be up to you. You come in here, you work hard, you ask people if they need help, you start here. And if you're really like, if you have what I think you do, you'll figure out a way. And so I took a job there making like 650 an hour answering phones.

But it was literally being, I was the first person that you engaged with. So you know everything that was incoming. Everything that was incoming came through me. Every call, if you wanted to talk to Grant Britton, famous skateboard photographer, if you wanted to talk to John Foster, the snowboard photographer, if you wanted to talk to whoever it was, you wanted to talk to the sales department, everything came through me.

And that's how I learned the lay of the land. And then when there was downtime, I would go and I'd go to the editorial department. I'd go to the advertising department. Like, what do you guys need done? What do you need? What can I do? And they're like, huh?

They give me a task, whatever, stuff in envelopes, whatever it took. And I just got to build a reputation to the point where like people would be walking by at lunch and be like, you want to come to lunch with us? Be like, yeah, you know, now you're with like Dave Swift and the skate photographers and you're just sitting in like, I started to build relationships.

And then after like four or five months, people started like kind of fighting for who got to use me for stuff. And then I got a job in the sales department, selling, literally selling the magazines to the shops on the phone and selling like the merch, the Transworld merch that went through it.

Right, so you're ground zero, you know all the new products. All the new products. You know what the trends are, what's cool, what's happening. And now I'm calling shops on the East Coast, in the Midwest, in the Southeast, all through California, et cetera. I'm telling them what's going on, what I, in the Midwest, in the Southeast, all through California, et cetera, I'm telling them what's going on, what I'm hearing buzzing around, what's coming on in the new magazine,

or who's writing for who now, et cetera. They're in turn explaining to me how their region works and what's cool, et cetera. Someone says they're looking for a writer in some place. I'm like, oh, such and such and such at Exit Real World in Oregon. And they got a kid and I became, I used what I learned at the front desk there. Right. And then that led to leaving and going to work at Planet Earth Skateboards under Chris Miller,

selling skateboards and clothing to those same shops that I was hustling magazines and beanies and Transworld sweatshirts to at Transworld. And that guy, Chad at Transworld, is that the guy who ended up founding Nixon Watches? Yeah, he founded Nixon Watches. And he's one of my best friends and brothers to this day, almost 30 years later.

So when does the speaking, hosting, commentating thing start to happen? The speaking thing starts at Transworld. There was an event that they were doing called Board Aid. While I was still actually the receptionist. Yeah, it's because I was a receptionist actually for more like about a year. And they were doing this event called Board Aid

where it was like an HIV awareness event with music and snowboarding and skateboarding. And they were doing up at Big Bear. Big bands were gonna play. There'd be booths, educational booths, et cetera, teaching kids about HIV awareness, et cetera. Like this is a real aggressive, very progressive deal. And I heard the woman, Louise Balma,

who ran production for events at Transworld, like frustrated that they couldn't find an MC. And I just was, she was near my desk and I was like, I could do it. And everyone just stopped and looked like, first of all, why are you speaking when the grownups are talking? And then Louise being like, hmm, maybe.

And then she was like, you really think you could do it? I was like, absolutely Louise, I could do it. And that was my first job speaking. Was introducing the bands that day was like, you really think you could do it? I'm like, absolutely, Louise, I could do it. And that was my first job speaking. Was introducing the bands that day and like giving the run of the land. I basically hosted a music festival. Right. Talking shit.

But the level of certainty and kind of confidence that you had around that is interesting. It's similar to how surfing clicked for you initially. Like there was like this knowing, like, oh, I got this. Like I can do this thing. I know you'd never done it before. Yeah. I mean, you're on the phone with people all day long.

You're talking to people. On the phone with people all day long. I grew up with a masterclass of my father in speaking and storytelling. Plus in the church, I had to learn how to reason with people at their doors to convince them that me being there was going to change their life. Right. As well as get up in front on stage every few months or so and give like an oratory presentation to the congregation and convince them that I had just imparted some knowledge to them

or some perspective on scripture. So you like that intersection of that, like crazy, like theocratic, like we had a book literally, it was called reasoning from the scriptures. Like I had to learn how to reason with people and win argument through healthy exchange, as well as like, you know, being around like my dad,

who was a master of it. Those two things fused together when I started like actually getting to talk to people for a living, I was like, oh, this is what I know how to do. Which actually started when I was, the beta for that was being a teller at Bank of America. Deal with a lot of unhappy people, right? Exactly. Yeah.

Well, it's also a right place, right time thing too, because the action sports world is just kind of coming online. It's growing like crazy. And the X games hadn't become a thing yet. No, the only people who cared about it were the people who did it. But Madison Avenue had just realized like,

wait, there's hundreds and thousands, if not millions of kids in this country that care about this thing. And we don't, and it's only happening within that space. Cue the extreme burgers and you name it. And all of a sudden, like what you could only watch on public access TV, like now people are scrambling to build content. X Game, the extreme games are born. You name it and all of a sudden, like what you could only watch on public access TV,

like now people are scrambling to build content. X game, the extreme games are born, right? And then MTV starts doing stuff. And from that first event that I did at Bored Aid, people started to call me to like, come and announce demos at their shops or like get on the mic. We'd all take turns in these endemically built events anyway, like on the microphone.

So I would just be one of the people who- Right, and you would do, it was just a side hustle that you were doing for fun and essentially for free and- And you wanted to be- Lift tickets and a flight. Lift tickets, shop credit. Right.

You wanted to be at these events anyway. And when it's where you wanted to, I wanted to be at these events anyway. And when it's where you wanted to, I wanted to be around this shit all the time. So suddenly it was like skate surf snow. I had like this in to like be front of the line at these things. And that's really what led to getting eventually a break at television.

Yeah, I like how you just embraced it. You were kind of doing it for the passion. Did you have a sense that it would lead somewhere else? Absolutely. Right. You know, there is a kind of, look, everybody should be compensated for their skills and be remunerated for work that they do.

But there's something powerful to be said for just putting yourself out there and like doing a lot of shit for free remunerated for work that they do, but there's something powerful to be said for, you know, just putting yourself out there and like doing a lot of shit for free for a long time until you get good at it when the stakes are low. That was the entirety of my career, was volunteering, putting myself out there, doing shit for free and learning from people

who like knew how to do it. Right, but at some point then you gotta, you gotta, you know, know your value, right? And like when you start transitioning out of, hey, I'm no longer your free guy, I gotta pay the rent. Yeah. Right? Becomes tricky, especially if you're a people pleaser or you feel like, you know, you're the guy

who when you get the business card, you're not gonna call the guy back. Rich, you're way too, way, way too insightful. I mean, it's literally guy back. Rich, you're way too insightful. I mean, it's literally spot on. Well, it's because I relate. I'm like, I'm the same guy in a lot of ways. It was that for me. Even after, when I got my break at ESPN,

I had gone on to start a brand, a clothing company with a bunch of friends called Alpha Numeric. That was a very impactful sort of birth of the street wear movement. We were the first black and brown owned, founded clothing brand in the space. We had a partnership of a bigger Garmento brand

that like funded us, but it was all run by a bunch of young black and brown kids. And we made waves, like really impacted the industry heavily and it was such a cool thing after like kind of you know working hard to find my way i jumped around at different companies and people would be like what does he do like i know he can sell etc but like what do you what can and he's happy he's the guy that you're happy to be around, but like, what can he do? And so starting that brand was like, here's what I can do. And we're making a difference.

And I was at an event with my team of athletes that I was the team manager marketing guy. And we're in Colorado and a guy walked up to me after the first day of competition at the Vans triple counter snowboarding. He said, are you Sal Masekela? And I said, yeah. He said, my name is Phil Orleans. I'm the producer of snowboarding from the ESPNX games and I'm looking for you. And I laughed at, I stood up in my bar stool and I, mind you, it's raging post day one, everyone to the bar.

And I'm like, whoever effing put this guy up to this, like real funny. And I threw up the bird and I sat back down. The guy tapped me on the shoulder again. He's like, now he's got the embossed ESPN card. He's like, no, I'm me. And I'm like, huh? And that was, he had seen me in a documentary called snow taxi and i had also done some stuff at that point a couple of like one-offs at mtv their sports and

music festivals and um this little public access show called planet x that was basically my my start which came from a guy not being there to interview Tony Hawk at the boarded event. And the guy coming up to the stage and be like, hey, do you know Tony Hawk? Can you interview him for me? And that was the start. And he sat down with me and told me that they wanted to get real voices in at ESPN

that could actually commentate the culture and the sports. Cause they had been using stick and ball like broadcast people and it was not translating. Right. Yeah, the community is not responding. Not responding at all. We watched it with the volume off, thought it was horrible.

You were stoked to see your friends competing, but like, when's this gonna just go away was how we looked at the X Games. And I just kind of told them everything that I thought sucked about the X Games. I said nothing positive for like three hours over a six pack. And then when I flew home.

Did you realize it was a job interview or you just thought you're giving him feedback? I thought I was giving him feedback and then he did make an offer. And I was like, I don't think I'd wanna do it. Like, I just was like, this is what I'm doing. Your life is a string of like not being aware enough to know what the fuck is going on.

Literally is a case. You're constantly getting these opportunities and you're blind to the truth of them. I said no. Yeah. And I flew home and I sat with my team. I go to the office at Alphanumeric and giving them the rundown of the weekend

at the Vans Triple Crown. And I'm like, oh yeah. And then there was this dude who, you know, he wanted me to, he was from the X who, you know, he wanted me to, he was from the X Games, and he told me he wanted me to come out and be a sideline reporter in a few weeks at Crested Butte. And they're like, what'd you tell him? I was like, told him I wasn't really interested.

My friend, I was like, what are you talking about? Like, what are you actually, everybody was like, what? I was like, well, you know, we're doing this thing, and we're, you know, the brand, actually, everybody was like, what? I was like, well, we know we're doing this thing and we're, you know, the brand, blah, blah, blah. And they were like, you going there and being a part of the thing could actually be a representation of the culture that they need. Like, you can't complain about ESPN getting it wrong

if you're giving them the, the, you know, giving them the high hand when they're trying to enlist you. Yeah. And I also like, but I also was like, what do you mean me? I'm going to go there and make a difference. Like it's ESPN. And they put their foot lovingly square between my cheeks, put their foot lovingly square between my cheeks made me call the dude he actually called me back a couple days later and said have you thought about it and i was like you know all right i i i'll i'll come then they had another guy call and negotiate with me and i hadn't really been paid for television yet like mtv i made a little bit of money, but you- They don't pay. They don't pay.

Like you'd go and do the thing for, you'd be at an event for like 10 days and they give you like maybe a thousand dollars. That's unbelievable. Yes, a thousand dollars. And same thing with that first CSPN, like X Games. Like if I was there for two weeks, they were gonna give me 1500 bucks.

Wow. And I said, yes. And this guy, Jamie Reynolds really took an interest in me and groomed me. And they put me on the sidelines at half pipe and big air. And suddenly like these guys who hadn't, men and women who hadn't really been opening up in their interviews, they get down to the bottom and here's the homie.

And I'm asking them questions. You got history with everybody. And it was just like, it clicked. I had a blast. I also was thoroughly unprofessional, knew nothing about like how to be a broadcaster, no journalism rules or anything. I'm of the people.

I'm of the thing. And I'm talking to the people at home that do it but they saw something in me that said like we might be able to actually like mind this kid and that was the beginning of it and then 13 years of that 13 years two years later i am the lead play-by-play person for skateboarding and snowboarding. And then they made me the overall host of the X Games. I had a 13 year paid television broadcasting, journalism education at the worldwide theater. Well, you're literally right front and center when Tony Hawk does his 900 and Sean White does what he does

and all the kind of craziness that ensued as that entire world just exploded. Yeah. I was standing on the vert ramp when Tony did the 900. Wow. Wow. Never, ever, ever forget it. Yeah.

And it, yeah, within about a year, it was like, not about a year and a half, it was like, oh, this might be my thing. Took you that long to figure that out. Oh, and almost blew it many times. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Many, many times, Rich.

Well, I think you found your lane. I mean, then you went on, you did the Sochi Olympics, right? You did World Cup in South Africa in 2010. Yeah, yeah. You've done tons of stuff with NBC sports, this Viceland show. Yeah, the Viceland show was like a real, that was the-

Why didn't that continue? Vice world of sports was my baby. That was like, I wanted to get into like real docu storytelling of culture and people through sports. Right, so essentially you're going to these really interesting places, immersing yourself in the sport and the culture and the relationship of sport to that specific culture.

Exactly, you're in a remote fishing village in Ghana. It's like if Anthony Bourdain was an athlete. Essentially, and it's funny that you mentioned him because he was my touchstone. Like that's, I was like, I wanna do a show that is Bourdain, but it's sports. That's not like, it's not, you know, real sports on HBO where like it comes back into the studio

and like someone rules on whether or not we should be talking about this. Like, I wanna go and have people feel like we went to this place and Vice gave me that opportunity. But they, instead of like putting that show on HBO, they launched Viceland and they had been primarily a digital space that was killing it, right? Like it's a place where you got to go get real news

and get inserted into the world. And now they wanted to make the leap to television. And instead of like selling that show to a network, we're launching up, we've done all this, we can launch a network. And they didn't really have like a long-term real big kids plan for what that network was gonna be.

And they also went through a bunch of like challenges as far as how they ran the business, they got exposed, et cetera. And anyway, long story short, we got canceled after two seasons, but that's the two best. It's the making that show for three years is the greatest thing that I've ever gotten to do.

It was the best. Better than being in Point Break, the remake? Come on, man. That's gotta be a highlight. Well, I mean, a week in- That is history. A week in Brindisi, Italy, pretending to be in Tahiti with the greatest surfers on earth.

It's called acting. Was awesome. And I wasn't supposed to have a speaking line. They told me specifically, don't talk. But Edward Ramirez comes up to me, you know, and we had gotten to know each other. He's playing the Bodhi character. And this is this party scene this

over the top like crazy ass yacht they had flown in like the most beautiful women that i've ever seen in my life for some reason like from all over the world for this boat scene for for this boaty thing. And so we're just a bunch of bros, like trying to like maintain sanity. And you're like, they're like, ah, this is, it's incredible. So we're having a blast.

And finally we had rehearsed the scene a couple of times and Edward's like, hey man, you know, like, you know, get into it. I was like, okay. But the director's like hey man you know like you know get into it i was like okay but the director's like don't worry about that get into it you know let's let's let's have a thing like you you got this edward edgar ramirez yeah okay cool so um he comes up and he's walking through the party and it's going off and you know there's women and everywhere and people jumping skating off the boat it's insane like something that would you know, there's women everywhere and people jumping, skating off the boat. It's insane. Like something that would never happen in real life.

And he comes up and he shakes my hand. And he looks at me. He's like, hey, my brother. And I go, worst party ever. And we just stop. And then he has this big laugh. And he walks off. And the director's like, cut, cut, cut, God damn it, cut, cut.

And they go back and check the gate and they're like, all right, that was great. We're gonna run that. We're gonna run that five times and get coverage on it. And so that's how I got my speaking line. That's awesome. In Point Break 2. Get your SAG card from that.

Get your SAG card. Right, nice, man. Before I let you go, we gotta wind this down in a little bit, Point Break 2. Get your SAG card from that. Get your SAG card. Right, nice man. Before I let you go, we gotta wind this down in a little bit, but I'm super interested in how you have really made fitness a huge part of your lifestyle after it kind of got away from you a little bit and the dedication that you've kind of given

to your wellbeing, not just in the gym, but outside of the gym. So let's talk about that a little bit. I mean, I know that you're a huge part of the Deuce CrossFit community, and I've got some friends that work out there. You share a lot of that on Instagram, but you go to the layered workout,

you do the Wim Hof breathing, you're doing the whole thing. And you got a mind fold. I saw that on your Instagram And you got a Mindfold. Yeah. I saw that on your Instagram. I have a Mindfold. I didn't, I was like, he's on the Mindfold. It's the greatest.

The Mindfold is the best. Greatest $13. I know. That you can spend. They don't have an IG. They don't, yeah, there's no marketing behind that company. There's no marketing for the Mindfold. It is the best I know.

I know that I've sold hundreds of them, if not thousands, just based on responses and people DMing me pictures. What is that? Where do you get that? From my videos. It's super cheap. I bought like four of them. Yeah, they're 13 bucks. They're amazing.

I think I ran the New York Marathon in 2009 to raise money for my foundation. I have a foundation that I started called Stoked, a mentoring organization for at-risk kids, exposing them to surfing, skating, snowboarding. And the principles of it, the falling down and getting back up, learning to negotiate a new environment

into building better people. We've been at it for 15 years and worked with like over 6,000 kids in New York and LA and Chicago. And we were doing this fundraiser where we were in kind of a lean time in the midst of the recession and we needed like to, we lost a bunch of like really big donors. And I was like, I'll run the marathon. Dumb, dumb idea. a bunch of like really big donors. And I was like, I'll run the marathon. Dumb, dumb idea.

But I, you know, I'm athletic. In retrospect, a good idea. Yeah, in retrospect, a good idea. And I ran it. I only trained for three months. I lost a bunch of weight while I was training and thought like, okay, I got this. And the first 17 miles, I'm running very thought like, okay, I got this. And the first 17 miles, I'm running very, very, very, very high on adrenaline.

We're looking at like a 415, 420 pace, which is insane for a middle-aged or a guy in his late 30s who's never ran before. But I felt incredible. I was like, this is gonna be- I already know where this is going. Awesome. We actually, sorry, we were at a 357 pace. Sub four, then you hit the Queensborough Bridge.

Dude, how did you know? Because that's everybody's story who thinks they're training for a marathon, but actually isn't training the way you're supposed to train for a marathon. Mile 18, all falls apart. The Queensborough Bridge. training the way you're supposed to train for a marathon. Mile 18 all falls apart. The Queens borough bridge. I've never heard anyone else tell it. But it's the literal moment of truth. My body said, hi, I've been enjoying your jubilation

and your interaction with the people waving at you from their windows and the music and all of that. But like- The Puerto Ricans, the Hussies. All of it. All of it. All the colors. Yeah, and you're just feeling all of that.

But shit is not good here. And now you're going to, it's my turn now. Time to pay the toll. And now you're going to, it's my turn now. Time to pay the toll. Quads, hamstrings, lower back, calves, hip flexors, all at once, gone. A level of cramping that I didn't even know existed.

And by the time I got to the top of the, also no one tells you that Queensborough bridge is a, is a mountain. Right. Yeah. There's a, yeah, there's a climb. It's a climb. It's an arc. It's a climb. It's an arc. You're running on this like weird corrugated, like metal leaf. It's, it's just, the arc is real. And after 17 miles, it's, it's insane. I might as well have been climbing Kilimanjaro. Right. And on the back half, I can't even, the downhill is not relief. It's actually worse.

And now we have six or seven miles to go where it's a whole new race. And by mile 21, 22, I'm disintegrated. My friends who were running with me are like, come on, you can do it. I'm crying. I'm waving in and out of consciousness. Like my body is on fire. And it was the first time that I actually like had prayed

in a while. Cause I literally was like, hey, if that's you and all that's, if you're, this would be a good time to take me. Noble, raised money, I can die rather than finish this. And the universe, all spirits involved were like, nah, not like this. And I finally like made it to the end.

I think we ended up being like 540 or something. It was, it was horrible. That's brutal. To go from sub four pace to 540. 540 and like broken, like broken. When my then girlfriend saw me as I'm coming towards the finish line where I get that last bit of like reserve adrenaline where I'm like

suddenly my legs are kind of moving she saw how destroyed I was I saw her eyes and her shock and horror and she's weeping and now I'm like the realizing like oh and I'm I'm weeping and I got to the other side and I collapsed couldn't walk walk for a week. And I was flying home from New York from there. And I had to stay. I was working at E also at the time. And they were like, you're working tomorrow. So I was working out of their offices there. This is 09?

This is 09. But on the way home, I was reading an article. And I don't know if it was outside or what, but there was this guy who was talking about this CrossFit thing and he hated it. He thought it was the worst thing ever. And it was a crazy fad. I had heard nothing about it, but he decided to do it for eight weeks. And at the end of his eight weeks, he was like, everything up was better, blood, et cetera, et cetera. It changed his life. And the way he described it, I was like, I wanna know what this is. Gymnastics, Olympic lifting.

It's not like going to a gym and using machines. There's no mirrors. Yes, I'm here for what that might be. Also outside of the marathon, my surfing and snowboarding had been steadily degrading. And I was like, but I know how to do this. And I'd never really invested time in my body and going to the gym just felt like a chore.

I had gym memberships and trainers, but it just seemed methodical and boring. And I like to play. I like to play basketball. I like to surf and snowboard. And I came home, I got on YouTube, I checked out CrossFit and all the videos that came up were women.

And the women just like beasting. I came home, I got on YouTube, I checked out CrossFit and all the videos that came up were women. And the women just like, basting, basting the fitness. I had no comprehension for what I was seeing. And I was like, yo, if women are, I could not hang with any of what's taking place here. I wanna do this. And I called, I literally like Googled whatever, found the closest one, left a message that night.

Hey, I want to try your thing. My name is such and such, call me. And it ended up being CrossFit LA. And that's how I started. And that began a total like weird reset at 40 into 39, into getting back what you put in, like getting a feedback from fitness, getting a feedback from what you put in your body. I realized that as much as I loved playing at these sports,

I literally had no idea how the body works at all. Like what's happening when you go to lift something or when you're in a plank or any number of different manners in which you move the body and like what you get out of that, not to mention food. Like I just, my mother was, I took my herbs and my shit, but like I wasn't, I didn't have a- But now mom's voice is in the back of the head. I told you it'd be waiting for you, literally.

And yeah, that began a radical, I don't think, I remember the first class I went to, I didn't know like any of like the weird subculture stuff of CrossFit, I just seemed like cool people. And it was all my friends at the time were either artists in Hollywood, surfers or snowboarders. And so I was like, I'm going here to like do this class and skateboarders and then I'm out, I'm not really here for like- I'm not gonna join the cult was like, I'm going here to like do this class and skateboarders and then I'm out.

I'm not really here for like- I'm not gonna join the cult. Yeah, I'm not here to be- You're also like, you like these subcultures. Didn't realize- It's community. It's community. And instantly I was like, oh, this is dope. Like, and these are different types of people

from everyday lives and we're having this commonality. And suddenly I was able to see how it married very nicely with the other things that I was a part of. And then I just threw myself like all the way in. And I've evolved with it, you know, the work with the body you have today, not the one that you had yesterday or you want tomorrow. And so I've adjusted accordingly as I get,

as I'm continuing to grow up, but I still am having so much fun. Like it's given me a new lease on life. I snowboard better. I surf better than I did 10 years ago. I can go out and do shit and have fun. And like, I love playing in the gymnastics of it all. And then that led to like Laird being like,

I see you're taking care of yourself. One day we were out surfing at Pointe du Monde. He's like, you should come up to my house. It was like maybe six years ago. I was like, what? He's got the golden ticket. He's like, you gotta come up to the house. Yeah.

And then he like texted me, like, come on, like come up. Gates open and then you're just like, whoa. Now I'm like on some neck shit with this, with the, you know, wasn't even XPT at the time. It was just like, take this dumbbell and jump into the deep end and walk to the other side. What? Huh? Yeah. And then we're gonna get in this ice tub

and then we're gonna go sit in this 220 degree sauna for 20 minutes. And then we're going to get in this ice tub and then we're going to go sit in this 220 degree sauna for 20 minutes. And then we're going to throw you back in the pool and like, you're going to learn this thing. And that just opened me up entirely into another world. Then came the breath work and I went to a Wim Hof seminar and I was like, what? And then the Wim took an interest in. And like, I don't know. Now I'm just like, I'm so wonderfully permanently curious about what else I can. Like, I know that I'm never going to learn it all. And anything where you don't get to have mastery over it, that's what I think I'm built for. There's always room to grow.

Always room to grow. Always room to grow. And I just enjoy my life so much better with it. You know, I love how you share it transparently on Instagram and I think it's inspiring. And I think it's also interesting how it dovetails with the evolution of action sports, because when you came up and I know that generation, it's like, wasn't cool to like take care of yourself

and actually train with a champion mindset for these things. It's all about talent and swagger. If you won the contest the next day and you weren't at the bar the night before. Doesn't count. It didn't really count. And people would give you shit, they go, well, who do you think you are?

That literally was the mindset. Yeah, but now it's changed so much. Radically. You see what Kelly's doing. You see how Laird leads by example. You look at LeBron and how these guys double down on self-care and all the little things that they're doing and the investments that they're making in themselves.

And it's paying off in terms of the longevity of their career and their ability to execute at the highest level into ages that would have thought would have been impossible a decade ago. Absolutely. Like I never thought at 49 that I would be still riding short boards and like having the opportunity to push myself in the back country on a snowboard.

Like would have never thought that that would ever be a thing or like, you know pause squatting, pause squatting 275 for fun. And that being lightweight. And you talked about sharing it on, on IG, you know the responses that I get from people, from dads, from people who sort of like let themselves go or thought they were no longer capable

and them saying like, hey, I see you as like me. And the fact that you're choosing to do this like has moved me to do this. Yeah, there's an accessibility to it. Cause I'm- It's aspiration. Yeah, I'm not an elite athlete. I'm a guy who talks story for a living and loves the thing, but I've also decided to invest in it as if,

in myself as if I was on that level to see where I can take myself. Yeah, it's cool, man. It's been fun, you know? And then that makes you start to get curious about the mind and, work and doing some journey with plant medicine and like really like you start to realize the full interconnectedness

of all of what this existence is. Right, but it all comes back to the spirituality of surfing. Yes. And everything can be encapsulated in that experience of riding the perfect wave, right? Being completely present, being completely connected with self,

being in your bliss, chasing your passion and being engaged in a community that supports each other. Yeah, and I think also being able to have all of these weird little thin slices for opportunity at flow state that can show up in all these different aspects of your life that like you never thought you could possibly gain access

to and then being like you said, being able to have community that is supportive of that in all these spaces. Yeah, that's me for life now. You're doing it, man. You get to live life on your terms. You get to do the things that you love. You get to go to cool places.

It's pretty bad-ass man. It's pretty bad-ass, you know, and losing the old man a few years ago, you know, really, I think it put it even in, it put it into even sharper perspective, you know, that yes, I'm doing all of these things, but also none of those things are a guarantee yeah so really like be as present as you can and be okay with the fact that like for me like

knowing that i'm never going to have it figured out is the greatest realization that i've ever been able to come to because then it's just like we just get to grow for the rest of the time that we're here, man. And like, there's going to be new shit to sort out. But like, you're never going to have it figured out. So enjoy right now. I think that's a good place to put a pin in it. Thanks, man. Thank you, man.

But thanks, man. Thank you, man. It would appear that everyone that has been working on behalf of the universe for us to sit down together, we're very, very right. And I'm really, really humbled to be able to sit and have this conversation with you. Right back at you, it was beautiful. There's so many more, I made all these notes.

There were a thousand things on here that we didn't even get to. So to be continued, my friend. Yeah, thank you, Rich. Appreciate you. I really admire and respect the vibration that you carry into the world. I think it's really inspiring

and I think you're an important voice. So the honor is all mine. We'll do it again. Right back at you. So if people wanna connect with you, what's the best place for them to do that on Instagram? On Instagram, I am at Selema, S-E-L-E-M-A. Same, it's Selema Masekela on the Twitter.

And then my podcast, the What Shapes Us podcast. And on Instagram, it is at What Shapes Us podcast. And on Instagram, it is at what shapes us podcast. And your music's on Spotify. We didn't even get to, we didn't even talk about your band, man. The music is called Alakazam, which is simply Massakella backwards. And yeah, we've got a nice body of work going and people seem to be enjoying it

and they find out I love that people's relationship with the music is the music first and then they find out like oh it's that guy I didn't know that didn't put it together it's better that way it's way better that way because then you don't have to deal with all the weird prejudgment stuff which I that's a whole nother podcast

yeah it's a whole nother conversation but yeah check out Alakazam anywhere that you listen to music. All right. Peace, brother. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks for listening, everybody.

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Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camiolo. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis. Portraits by Allie Rogers and Davy Greenberg. Graphic elements, courtesy of Jessica Miranda. Copywriting by Georgia Whaley, and our theme music was created by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt, and Harry Mathis. You can find me at richroll.com

or on Instagram and Twitter at Rich Roll. I appreciate the love. I love the support. I don't take your attention for granted. Thank you for listening. See you back here soon. Peace. Plants.

Namaste. Thank you.