The Rich Roll Podcast - SOFI TUKKER On Unlikely EDM Superstardom, The Hard Business of Music, And The Athletic Art of Performance

Episode Date: February 27, 2025

Sophie Hawley-Weld and Tucker Halpern, together known as SOFI TUKKER, defy every convention of electronic dance music.   This conversation explores their unlikely origin story—from D1 basketball captain and aspiring diplomat to electronic music revolutionaries who’ve achieved stratospheric success by approaching their craft with athletic discipline and meditative mindfulness. Through an alchemy of Portuguese poetry and pulsing beats, they’ve amassed over 3 billion streams, scored multiple Grammy nominations, and landed high-profile Apple campaigns while sustaining well-being amidst non-stop touring.   These two transformed my understanding of what electronic artists can be.   SOFI TUKKER is a revelation—and a testament to the power of authentic self-expression. Enjoy! Show notes + MORE Watch on YouTube Newsletter Sign-Up Today’s Sponsors: Momentous: 20% OFF all of my favorite products👉livemomentous.com/richroll BetterHelp: Use the code RICHROLL to get 10% off your first month👉BetterHelp.com/richroll Calm: Get get 40% off a Calm Premium subscription👉calm.com/richroll RocketMoney: Cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money 👉 RocketMoney.com/RICHROLL                                                 Check out all of the amazing discounts from our Sponsors 👉 richroll.com/sponsors   Find out more about Voicing Change Media at voicingchange.media and follow us @voicingchange

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gut. That's zoe.com. Use code richroll10 at checkout. This thing that we started together out of air, you know, it's so cool. And we know if we want to keep traveling and performing the way we do, we have to treat it like we're athletes or else we're going to hate life. Being really happy and joyful and having these experiences of ecstatic dancing and connection is huge for health. Sophie Tucker is an electronic dance duo whose meteoric rise has been catalyzed by a world hungry for connection amid global isolation. What began as an unlikely partnership

between Sophie Holly Weld and Tucker Hallburn has become something transformative. Their distinctive blend of Brazilian bossa nova and electronic beats has captured imaginations worldwide, from Apple campaigns to Oscar nominated films, earning them Grammy nominations and platinum record status across five continents. The show that we put on is so different

than if you were to go to that nightclub on any other night. For us, it's more important to like make the best show possible possible. But perhaps Sophie Tucker's most notable achievement isn't this chart-topping success, but rather their ability to maintain balance and maintain authenticity in an industry known for excess and burnout. In a world of late nights and chemical enhancement, that is the EDM world, these two have really carved out a different path, one that's grounded in wellness and mindfulness

and intentionality, turning every performance into this positive community building game that you can win. We are so in love with what we do. I mean, it's the best thing in the world. You go out and play a concert. Everyone wants you to win. There's like no other team trying to make you lose.

Things can go wrong, but it's pretty nice. And you can win every night. You can win every night. It's happening. You guys are here. I can't believe you, you like figured out a way to like get over here amidst this insane schedule that you have, but you guys rule.

I'm really happy that you're in the studio today. Thank you. This is very surreal for me. We're honored. We were gonna make this happen. Yeah. You were in New York, Sophie and Tucker, you were in Vegas. Where were you earlier today?

Earlier, yeah, yesterday I came from Vegas. Sophie came from New York. And you're going back to Vegas today. Yeah, we play Vegas tonight, New York tomorrow. When we were trying to set this up, I reached out to Sophie and I was like, can we find a date? And you texted me your tour schedule.

For like three months. I was like, it took me 20 minutes just to read it. I was like, there's no way this is happening. Like I cannot believe the relentlessness with which you guys tour. It's impressive. I mean, you guys are playing shows almost every day. It looks like.

I like the word relentless. Yeah. Yeah, I would say that's true. We love to tour. We love to travel. On paper, like you're a very unlikely duo. You're very different people. Together, it all makes sense. And you're like very unlikely duo, you're very different people, together it all makes sense.

And you're like, of course this works, right? But let's go back. Does it? Does it work? I wanna tell the superhero origin story here. He wants to start. We have a lot of friends from college actually who meet us or not who meet us, but who have found out that we're in a band together now.

And they're like, wait, what? How is that possible that you two are in a band together? Well, they said this like 10 years ago. Yeah. They get it now. They get it now. We just ran into someone from college like an hour ago. Yeah, it was fun.

Anyway, okay. So you guys were both at Brown together back in 2010 to 14 or whatever. Yeah, pretty much. But you both arrived at Brown with very different backgrounds. I mean, Sophie, you like lived all over the world and went to school in all kinds of different places

and you're talking about Massachusetts dudes. I was a jock from Boston. Yeah. Yeah. I was a basketball player. I was going to college to play basketball. I loved the coach there at the time, TJ Sorentine. I thought he would develop me, you know, and I would be a pro.

And that was my pretty one track mind life at the time. And you were captain of the team. I was captain my junior year. Junior year. Yeah, I was like all league sophomore year, captain junior year. And I ended up getting sick before the season started. And I got mono, which normally, you know, goes away in three or four weeks, and then you're fine.

And my body never made it dormant. So I was actually really sick for like seven months. I had to leave school for a year to keep my eligibility for basketball. Cause in the Ivy league, you can only play the four years. In a four year window. Yeah, it's a little bit different.

And, and basically I didn't know what to do. I was just in bed, not knowing what was wrong with me, really not having energy to get out of bed. And I moved back to Boston and was in my childhood room and I wanted to be productive and didn't know how I could be productive but I always wanted to make music. So I watched YouTube and just started producing music, really bad music for a long time. Just like initially on GarageBand or something like that?

Started on GarageBand and then FL Studio, and then Logic, and ended up in Ableton where we make music now. But yeah, it was just, I was just, I just got obsessed with it. And the mono thing, like it's still with you, right? Like you're still kind of- Yeah, they ended up calling it like chronic fatigue syndrome, which is really an umbrella term for,

we don't really know what's wrong with you. For me, it showed up a lot in inflammation issues that I've had ever since. I was never really able to be the same athlete again. I came back the next year and I played one more year at Brown and we had a new coach and he just thought I wasn't working that hard, but I just physically could not do it.

And it was really frustrating because it was my whole life. It was everything. I love the game so much. I love basketball and it just wasn't fun because I was just getting killed and I wasn't the star player he thought he was getting as a new coach coming in. And I wasn't the same athlete anymore.

So what is the existential crisis that was visited upon you when you're somebody who's just only been thinking about like your prospects in the NBA, like being a professional basketball player, just being kind of the overarching dream that's dictating all of your decisions. Yeah, I mean, NBA would have been great, probably marginal, NBA, probably European.

Europe. But goals, yes. The identity crisis was the hardest part. I think I was known as a basketball player. That was my, I leaned into that so much growing up and in college, especially, that was what I was known for. And I didn't know who I was anymore at all. I remember getting back to school after being in bed and not socializing for, well, you

know, basically a year. And I like was mumbling in a party trying to like be witty and keep up with conversation. And I just, I just didn't, I was just confused and I had no clue who I was anymore. Were you an artistic kid though, when you were younger, like was music something that you were drawn to naturally? I loved music. I played drums in like middle school. I was in a garage band, but you know, I don't read music.

I didn't study it really. I just like, liked making mixtapes for my friends and showing people new music. And I just always loved it, but never had time. I was, you know, from when I was 12 years old, going to nationals on my AU team, it was just basketball. And so in the wake of this mono experience, you're back up around, basketball is out of the picture.

I presume this was your senior year and you're like trying to find something else to occupy that focus and level of, kind of intensity that basketball occupied. Yeah, exactly. I basically found this new passion when I was in home in bed, tried that one more year when I came back to school to play basketball and was still just making music on the side. And then my senior year the doctor said, you can't play anymore.

You're just you're running yourself to the ground. Your body can't handle it. We don't really know why, but you just really can't do it. And I had one year left of school and I said, OK, I have this other passion. How do I make this into a career? I have one year to figure this out because I got no backup plan right now. You're not gonna go work at a bank or something. I didn't wanna do that.

I wasn't prepared to do that. I don't think I would've been good at that. And I didn't wanna do that. Meanwhile, Sophie, walk us through kind of like your background up to the point where you meet Tucker. So I was born in Germany and then I basically moved my whole life with my parents. So I went to international schools in Germany, Atlanta,

British Columbia, Italy. Then they moved to the Netherlands and they moved to Geneva. And they're like diplomats? What was going on? So my dad is an international school headmaster. Even though I was like in Atlanta, Georgia, I was in a German program.

So the bubble of my life has always just been international school kids, no matter what city I've been in. So wherever you were, you were in a school that wasn't of that place. Exactly, yeah. Tell them about the high school. Yeah, so the high school that I went to was 200 students from 100 countries,

and nobody could pay to go. So it wasn't like a rich kid school. Each country basically chose two students from their country to go to the school, to be ambassadors of their country with the idea that they would be future leaders of their countries that then when their leaders that they happen to know the other leaders of-

Right. You know, countries all around the world. Sort of like the UN was a high school. Like this is what it was. Yeah. And it was started after the second world war as just this hope to make peace in the world. Wow.

Yeah. We could not have had different. Yeah, I mean, that's, but like the breadth of like your experience as a young person, you know, that's very unusual. I had never left the country. I didn't leave the country until I was 21. Right, and Brown's like what, like an hour drive from wherever you grew up or something.

Exactly, yeah. Yeah, and in the context of this high school, for instance, each room had to have four kids from four different continents and nobody could share the same first language. So it was just so extreme in its internationalism. And the world that I grew up in was high pressure. I think I always had this idea that it was my responsibility to change the world, to really help.

And- Where does that come from? Well, it comes from the schools, I think in part, and it comes in part from my parents unconsciously, which since then I just did this. Have you ever heard of the Hoffman Institute? Yeah. So I came back from Hoffman recently and I you know I came back to my parents and I asked them to basically tell me directly like hey Sophie It's not your responsibility to change the world and it was very healing for me

Cuz I I don't think they realized that they put that pressure on you either. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, but it was definitely there It was hard to convince her to start a band. We'll get there. It's part of the story, I guess, but that is real. She was very resistant to being in a band because she felt like she had to do, she had a responsibility. I thought it was selfish. That heavy lifting of saving the world, I mean, you know.

Man. But yeah, so that was my sort of upbringing. And then I went to Brown and I realized that I was just really obsessed with Brazilian music. So I was taking voice lessons and I realized that I just wanted to sing the songs in Portuguese because I think my voice sounds better in Portuguese and I just like those songs. How many languages do you speak and how many of those did you learn through all of those experiences growing up? Which is, do you speak and how many of those did you learn through all of those experiences

growing up? I really speak German, English and Portuguese. And then I used to speak Italian, but my Portuguese is kind of overtaking the Italian. What is it about Portuguese and the Brazilian culture that captured you so thoroughly? It's something so bizarre. It's almost like someone has said, you know, that I was Brazilian in the past life, which I'm not really a past life person necessarily,

but it was the music. I heard the music and I was just so attracted to the sounds. And specifically this sort of bossa nova style music. It's very intimate. The singers are basically like whispering into the microphones. And it just suits my voice well. And so I was just singing all these songs.

And my voice teacher was like, Sophie, I think you should learn Portuguese, because they offer it here at Brown. So I went to the Portuguese professor. I just told her I don't really have any connection with Brazil. I just really like the music. And so she encouraged me to take the course. And then at that point, I was just obsessed with learning Portuguese. So then I did a study abroad program and I moved

to Rio. And I was so in love with everything about the culture that I learned about in Rio. Because? Just, I think the first thing is the way that music lives in people's lives there. It's just, music is a central point of Brazilian culture. And I- It's crazy, you like walk on the street and like the people just playing music on the sidewalk are like the most amazing musicians and singers ever.

And it's not their profession. It's just like their side, like they're just having fun hanging with their friends on the stoop. It's crazy. Thinking about how important Carnival is to Brazilians, I think, says a lot. The entire country takes off a week at minimum just to sing and dance and party.

And they spend the entire year prepping for Carnival. Their outfits and the songs and the samba parades and schools are just incredible. And I don't think there's any other place in the world that I know of. I also just like the styles of music a lot, but just the importance of music and the importance of celebration and dance and sort of this like vibrancy just really captured me. So you're naturally drawn to this genre of music and just to music generally, right? But as somebody who's thinking like,

I'm supposed to be saving the world, do you kind of keep that, you know, as a side project because you're focused on, you know, going into the nonprofit world or whatever that might look like, government or diplomacy? Like, I don't know where your head was at that might look like, government or diplomacy. I don't know where your head was at. Yeah, that's exactly.

I think I felt this pull towards that, a lot of different styles of Brazilian music. And I also just knew that I wanted to live in Brazil because I like the culture so much. I just wanted to live there and be surrounded by it. But then I was studying conflict resolution and I think diplomacy was sort of what I thought I should do. And I was a mediator at the time. And so it was something around that, you know, like diplomacy, mediation, conflict resolution,

international affairs, something like that. Right, right, right. You're gonna be like that, what was that movie? Nicole Kidman is like working at the UN and gets herself caught up in some kind of intrigue. Oh, I don't know this movie, but I need to see it. I don't know either. And then on the side, I was just,

I was making music in Portuguese because I missed the country and the culture so much. And I just did it for fun, really. But secretly, I just wanted to sing and dance. When you returned from that semester abroad, were you performing music at Brown? Yeah, so I did probably like three or four performances. And I wrote some music.

A lot of it was in Portuguese. It was just like me and my guitar. And then I had a piano player and a drum player join me on some gigs. And so we would play around school. And at the same time, Tucker was also DJing around. And so we were hired. So you were like the DJ at the,

like at frat parties and stuff like that? I was like the dude. So yeah, I went back to school after. Just like the bro-y DJ. I learned how to DJ, but I wasn't that bro-y. I was always like the athlete that also had other friends because Brown, I think a lot of colleges are like the athletes kind of stick to themselves.

They all hang out at like the sports houses and then there's everyone else. And especially at Brown, because if you're an athlete, you know, you get in, you're recruited athlete, but everyone else, it's so hard to get into Brown that everyone else is like very qualified. And there's a big difference socially between like, the school is what, 5,000 people undergrad.

I never saw Sophie once. Like I never even saw her. There were even different libraries. But you didn't even see me, right? No. Yeah, I'm six, eight, six, seven. I mean, I don't know if this was your experience too, but there was sort of like the library

for the intellectuals and the library for the athletes. There was. There's two separate libraries. And so we would study at different places. I never went into that library. I didn't go into the library that much in general. Even like the social circles never interacted. But. Not much.

For an athlete, I was like a- More of a cross pollinator. Cross pollinator, yeah, yeah, yeah. So then how did you guys, first of all, when you were performing, I know you shared with me a while back when you were at our house, like this idea of taking these Brazilian poems

and then turning them into songs. Is that what you were experimenting with at that time? Yeah. Already? Yeah, a little bit. So- You know in like Christmas movies, when they start the movies by following different people's lives

and then they like bump into each other at the supermarket. Yeah. We're about to get into our like bump into each other. We're moving towards the meat cute. You know? But it's like funny because I feel like- It's our like bump into each other. We're moving towards the meet-cute. Our meet-cute. You know? But it's like funny because I feel like- It's also like a sliding doors thing. Because you could have easily not met.

We're painting such a funny like these two lives that had nothing to do with each other. And then all of a sudden the most important person in your life. In the screenplay, it's yeah, we're building towards the inciting incident. And the funny thing is in the moment, I do, and I think this is common in those movies that we're talking about where I just didn't really make anything of it.

Like I had my mind on so many other things that night even, that it just kind of happened. Oh, you mean the night we met? Yeah, the night we met. We'll get to it. We didn't get there yet. Oh, okay, okay. Right. So it's not romantic if anyone's around here. No, no, not romantic at all.

So basically I was asked to play at an art gallery because I had played one or two gigs and I was just doing it for fun. And I was thinking, okay, what do I want to do after school? I don't know. I was going to job fairs. I remember going to New York and I- Writing a thesis. I was writing a thesis.

I was in the library a lot and I didn't really enjoy the thesis process. And I also went to this job fair and I remember talking to all these people who were technically in my field and just interviewing them a bit about what it would be like to work in a way that they do. And I just left the job fair. I remember being on the subway with some random girl that was there. And I just looked around, I started bawling my eyes out and she was like, are you okay?

I don't even know you. This is kind of weird that you're just crying, but what's going on? It's not that weird if you know her. Yeah. She cries. And I just looked around and said, I just really wanna just sing and dance.

You know, I just, I knew that that's what I really wanted to do, but I had to fight it really hard. So anyway, at that same time. You should have gone to Hoffman then. I know, right? I know, would have been helpful. It's okay, it worked out. It did work out.

I was her Hoffman. Yeah. Whoa. Yeah, so I was asked to play my songs at an art gallery and it was, you it was for about 10 people at college. At most. Yeah.

And so I went with the drummer and the piano player, and we were playing my songs, and they were inspired by... Really at this point, I hadn't started working with the Brazilian poet yet, but they were in Portuguese. And Tucker was also asked to DJ that same event. So he came to the art gallery and he came early and he knew Brynn who was playing piano with me. And he just said, Hey, can I come up early? So he started bringing in a drum loop from a song and he just said, you keep playing, just keep up with the drums. And so he sped it up and sped it up

and sped it up and sped it up. And- Yeah, so her songs just got like really fast. And I was like, this sounds better. Yeah. This is not only like the me-cube, but also like the montage in every, in every like music biopic where they're in the studio

and like they're just, they just craft the hit song like in like the snap of the fingers Yeah, I guess a couple months later. We kind of had that moment. Yeah, but this moment Do you remember the movie that thing you do? Yeah, we've lived Tyler and I think Anyway, yeah, but in the movie their drummer Breaks his arm and they have to get another guy to come in. Like the guy works at the fridge store and he's like really good drummer, but he just plays it way too fast.

And then all of a sudden it's like a hit. Oh, interesting. I always think about that. Have you watched that movie before? Yeah, but I wasn't like thinking like, I'm gonna be like that thing you do. Yeah, so you have this little experience. Yeah, and he says, hey, I really like that.

Can we, do you have a recording of the song? And I did technically, but it was not really usable. So then I just went over to his house the following day and recorded the song. I was persistent. I was like, just come over tomorrow, we'll record the vocal and then I'll produce it into like a dance music setting and see how that feels.

It just like felt like it would be a fun, good idea. And where was your head at Tucker? Like, were you like, oh, this could be just a fun little thing. Yeah, so this was an interesting year for me, cause I wasn't an athlete anymore. I had spent the summer before this year learning how to DJ literally in my room at home in Boston, in my parents' house.

And then I went back to school. The first week I got a DJ gig at the swim house, which I think got shut down after like three songs because from the police. But I just had a DJ controller and a big speaker, like a JBL giant speaker, and I had a car. And people would just call him. After that first DJ set, people were like, oh, he's good.

I like the music he's playing. And I got a couple more gigs the next week. And then people would just call me at midnight and be like, we're going to have a party tonight. Come over. And I would just get out of bed, literally drive over and play till 8 in the morning. And it was the best schooling I ever did, honestly.

And there was a really good party scene at Brown. A lot of international people who like had a really interesting interest in dance music. And it was a good time for dance music. It was just like things were just clicking. And so Sophie comes over, you record this song, you do what you do to it. And was there a sense at that time,

like, hey, this could be something, or did you share that song and was it received well? Or like, how did all the dominoes kind of fall to you guys saying like, hey, let's like make this a thing. I worked on that song for a little bit. It was very whatever for Sophie at this point. I think she was like busy with her thesis and jobs. And she had a fellowship that I think she had just gotten.

So she was gonna move back to Brazil after graduation and teach music and yoga, I think. And I was basically thinking like, okay, I think this is a good idea. The music I'm making is fine, but it's nothing special. You know, how am I gonna, you know, how am I gonna make music a career? And I thought there was something special there.

So I kept kind of bugging her to do it. I also needed an extra credit to graduate. And at Brown, you can make your own class. So I was like, can we just like- Only at Brown. Can we make an EP? It's a crazy school. Can we make an EP of music?

I loved that. And it'll get me a final credit that I need to graduate. And she was like, I don't have time. I have like way too many credits. I am writing this thesis. And I was like, please just like let me do this so I can graduate, kind of. Like that was part of my immediate idea for that, I think.

And so we ended up basically taking some songs that she had written in Portuguese That was part of my immediate idea for that, I think. And so we ended up basically taking some songs that she had written in Portuguese and I produced them electronically and made them and I got a course credit. But relentless. I was relentless and bugging her to like get out of the library and like make music with me. And then I'd say a week or two before graduation, I went to, or no, we were in the studio called Steinert at Brown and I was working on a remix actually.

Do you remember what it was? Yeah, I do. Do you want to say it? It was an old Green Day song, a classic. And I was like, this is going to be sick. People are going to go crazy when they hear this. And I made the music and I was like, this is gonna be sick. People are gonna go crazy when they hear this. And I made the music and I was like, Sophie, can you play something like this? Or no, then I think I was like,

the remix isn't good enough. So we took off the Green Day part. And then I was like, but it's got a cool vibe. Do you ever play electric guitar? And she was like, no, I've never played electric guitar. So this is the moment when it was like the, so then we grabbed our friend play electric guitar? And she was like, no, I've never played electric guitar. So this is the moment when it was like the, so then we grabbed our friend's electric guitar and like a broken amp with like a blown speaker

and I put it in her hands and she starts like plucking it like a bass and like doesn't really know what to do with an electric guitar cause she's like a really quiet acoustic player. And I'd say within like five minutes, the drinky riff, the riff to our first song, Drinky was made. And it was such a, like, we had it on loop

for like two hours and it never got old. And we were like, this is really good. And then we were like, what should we do for a vocal? And she, this is when she was like, well, I was just doing a poetry reading with this Brazilian poet for my Portuguese class last week. And he has this amazing poem and she just started reading it over the guitar and like the drum beat.

And I was like, record it. And so we literally recorded it. And then we had, and the song is literally like, just like four minutes of different variations of that loop basically. And it was just like special. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. You know, one of the things that I've learned over the years about therapy is that it's

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That was an Apple Watch one. And so it was just on SoundCloud at that point. And then a year later got nominated for Grammy. So you bang this thing out pretty quick, right? And you put it on SoundCloud and then how long before? No, there's a long period of time there actually. If there was a movie made about it, it might seem quick. The longer version of the story is that we made that song,

you know, we made 90% of that song that last week, right before we graduated. But we still weren't a band. No. Sophie was not trying to be in a band with me. No. And you're just trying not to be like a wedding DJ. Yeah, literally.

I was like, I don't wanna be just a club DJ. I'd like that just, it's gonna be tough. We're like, I don't wanna be just a club DJ. I'd like that just, it's gonna be tough. We're like, I was, I don't know. I was gonna figure something out. And I went to New York. I was friends with these DJs named the Knox who were a big group in New York at the time. And I showed them what I was working on separately.

And then they were like, it's okay. And then I was like, well, check this out. And I threw them on some of the stuff we were doing together. And they were like, this is cool. You could maybe, you should pursue this and like do this. And I was like, okay, that's all I needed. I needed one person in the industry to say,

you could do this. So then I grabbed onto it. I called, stepped out, literally stepped out of the studio called Sophie. I think this was like the day before graduation, literally. Yeah, I remember because it was right when I finished my final exam. And at the time that was a really big deal for me.

Yeah, I don't know. I called her. And you were, you know, crying after the job fair. So I presume you didn't like get some job that you were like sort of aiming towards at that point. No, but I did I so I had a fellowship to go to Brazil So I was like, okay, I don't want to do that job fair thing, but I do know that I love Brazil So I'm gonna go there. I have this poet I like working with maybe I'll make some music with him Then I'll at least be in Brazil and then I'll figure out the whole like diplomacy thing later. I wasn't in the cards

All right. So how did you talk her out of that plan? So I called her and I was like, let's start a band, we can do this, this song, there's something special here. And she was like, no way. No, I don't even know you. We were like making music for the past- You barely knew each other. Four, three, four or five months,

but we were never even hanging out socially. Like we weren't, we didn't have the same friends. We weren't, I think I brought you to like a DJ gig I did once at this club called the Coliseum. And she was like, what is this? It was like a rave. And she was like, I don't know what's going on here. And, um.

I mean. A little. You were pretty wide eyed. Do you remember that night your dad was there? I know, my dad came to see me DJ for the first time. And you were there. I danced a lot. to see me DJ for the first time and you were there. I danced a lot. You danced. It was the dripping in gold.

It was a really fun party. It was really fun. But yeah, definitely not. We were throwing really good parties. So what flipped the switch then? Well, he was relentless. Persistence. Yeah. And he I mean, he just made a really good argument.

So I basically what I did was she said no. And so then I was like, okay, well, how am I going to convince her? And then I really thought about it. I think I had a conversation, probably called my dad and we like talked it through and we were like, okay, because I'd gotten to know her enough to know that she felt this big responsibility. She wanted to make a difference. She really wanted to go to Brazil.

She had all this education. I think she felt a little pressure from her parents and from herself to be a diplomat or do something and really like change the world. And so I called her back. This was over a couple of days conversations. And I said, So if we do this and it's successful,

you're gonna be able to help so many more people than if you go back, no one knows you, you're like helping one person at a time. Like, yeah, it's valiant, but like you'll be able to make such a bigger difference in the world, especially in Brazil. And I promise we'll focus on Brazil and like make that a priority for us.

That's a pretty good argument. And that was the argument. Going right to the heart of your motivation. Right. Yeah. And I knew she secretly wanted to do it. I just wanted to sing and dance. That's what I wanted to do. You say it like it's so chill.

I know. We do more than sing and dance. No, I know, but I think at the time- It's one percent of our job. You're like workaholics full on. But it's because we are so in love with what we do. I mean, it's the best thing in the world. Like, I would do all of this in my free time if I had another job, you know?

So I feel like I'm just like living out my dream hobby. Sure. I mean, all the travel and the packing and the repacking and the... Yeah, well, the travel maybe a little less, but the actual work, I mean, the making music and performing music and everything that goes into what we do is- Well, it's a special time for you guys right now too, right? Like you've worked hard to be in the position that you're in and you should take full advantage

of every opportunity. And there's a lot of opportunity for you right now. Yeah, although ironically, I feel like we're also taking fewer and fewer and fewer opportunities, which is the best part of right now. Like I think before- Well, that's what happens. Yeah, but you're in a position where you can say no.

Exactly. And you gotta say, you have to say no to protect the better opportunities. Yeah, like I feel way healthier now than I ever did. We used to pop around the globe in a really bizarre way and now we can be like, no, we're not gonna go to Japan for a day and then back to Europe. That's crazy. Which is really nice. We used to feel like, no, we need to do this or else we'll be missing a huge opportunity. And now it's a little more on our terms.

But we still, I mean, we're still definitely relentless. And early on, we would butt heads on this a little bit. I remember one of the first, and this is where like my sports background really came into play and we had to figure out where it fit with each other because like we were in the studio. So we ended up moving to New York

and working out of the Knox studio, the guys who I was friends with, and Sophie was friends with too. And we were working at nights when they weren't in there or when they were on tour. And it was this little place in Chinatown. I've never seen so many rats, not in the place, but that walk that we took from my house to there.

Man. And this is like 2015? 14 still. 14. that walk that we took from my house to there, man. And this is like 2015? 14 still. 14. Yeah, like the summer right after graduation. So we were sort of in the studio, trying to make our first like EP, literally learning how to make music, trying to figure out how to use the studio. Like literally it would probably take us like three hours

to hook up the microphone because I was like still learning how to do stuff. And it was late one night, I remember, this was like one fight and we've talked about it. And it doesn't show, Sophie's a really hard worker. So this isn't to say she's not, but we had an argument because it was late and she was like, I'm tired, I wanna go to bed.

And I was like, who cares if you're tired? You know, we got here a couple hours ago. Like I used to wake up at 430 run stadiums and then go lift and then go to breakfast and then go to practice and then go to class and then go back to the gym. Like the things that you sort of have to do as a division one athlete

are just physically so painful that, and you know, like physical pain, obviously better than I do. Well, yeah, but you just instilled with a sense of discipline early that gets reinforced and becomes to sort of who you are. Yeah, and so we would kind of butt heads and she's like, no, but it's creativity.

I need to like feel not tired to make the music and feel the, and I was like, no, you can just do it. And then somewhere in the middle is probably the right answer. Yeah, it is. I mean, that's a true statement on some level. Like it is curious, like where does the athlete mentality or mindset benefit the creative process

and when does it work at cross purposes with it? Because obviously there's the performance and touring side of it. And I would imagine in that context, like the athlete mindset is very helpful because it's so draining and you're putting on this, it's an athletic performance, what you guys do, right? So that's sort of like-

Become more of an athlete in those regards than I am now because of my inflammation and because of a lot of things. She's really more of a physical athlete now, like the way she treats her body, make sure she gets her workouts in every day, follows a workout regimen, her sleep, her eating habits,

like she's probably better, like now as a touring athlete than I am, but it's just, but she's, you know, picked that up. Yeah, I wanna get into all that. We're working our way towards it. But I mean, I think for right now on the idea of like the athlete mindset and when it's helpful and when it's not,

like setting aside the touring piece and focusing on the creative act of like making music in the studio or the writing and all of that, like you can't force that on some level. I mean, you can show up for it and be disciplined about it, but on some level there's a sort of an allowing that has to happen, right? Kind of, but we're both kind of going like this

in our heads because I think we have met in the middle. I think 10 years later, we don't still fully agree on it maybe. No, I actually think we agree. But that tension is what is the grist, right? Yeah, I really do think it's, we found a nice middle ground, which is there are all sorts of things

that you brought over from basketball and from your athletic mentality that I think, maybe you've even changed your mind on, like you're like, oh, well I had, you know, grown ass men screaming in my face, telling me to get the ball or whatever they say. Get my ball. Yeah, it's helpful to have old men yelling at you

when you're younger. It's weird from like age 12, it's the only time, this is one of the only things in sports that grown adults will be like screaming demonstratively in your face. But I think the reason that I bring it up is because he does bring it up a lot. And I'm like, yes.

And I actually don't think that's how most humans get motivated. The reason that I bring it up is because he does bring it up a lot and I'm like, yes. And I actually don't think that's how most humans get motivated. In fact, I'm pretty sure that's not how I get motivated, you know? So moving a bit away from what you were used to, what do you, is that fair? No, no, I don't think I necessarily get motivated by someone yelling in my face. Oh, okay, okay. Just for the record? Yeah, no, that. Just for the record?

Yeah, no, that's good to know. But I definitely don't get shook from criticism or negative comments or you learn not to get shook by stuff as much. And I think we've- And that's a big help in this business, I think. And that took a big help in this business, I think. And a lot of people who didn't have that sort of sports background, they get very shaken by criticism or hate or whatever you call it, you know, trolling, whatever you call

it. But I think in creativity, it's really important to show up in times that you don't want to show up. And I think that's something that Tucker definitely brought to the band. That's the Steven Pressfield, war of art. Like if you're a pro, you show up for it no matter what. Yeah, you show up for the inspiration. So there's the discipline piece,

but then there's that when you are showing up, like how do you open yourself up and be a channel rather than like you're in the gym and you're just like pushing and how many reps can I do? Right. And there is definitely that point where I think it's okay to say, you know what, not today. It's not happening and we're not gonna keep pushing

because now we're just working hard and not working smart. So I think we've, we're still developing, you know. How much of the writing process do you guys do together versus you go your separate ways and then like bring ideas to the table? It's really both. Yeah. We do both.

I mean, a lot of our songs and albums and things were like made from both of us being in the same room together from the beginning. But we'll always start an idea with something, maybe something coming from Sophie or something coming from Sophie or something coming from me or an old jazz song that I found that I think Sophie would find interesting or sound really good, like reinterpreting or Sophie just playing guitar in a room late

at night, thinking of an idea. It's all over the place. Yeah, I think we're individually always collecting ideas and just looking at what is inspiring us. And then when we come to the studio and when we come together, we kind of do a little show and tell and we're like, well, this is a beat that I made last night

or like, these are some words I've been thinking about or this is a concept I really want to write a song about or here's a melody I thought of. And I wonder how it could work with the beat that you've been inspired by or the sample or whatever. On some level, like the idea of like mashing genres, I mean, it's not entirely new. I mean, Aerosmith and Run-D.

All these sorts of, you know, kind of experiments with this over the years, Moby, you know, like everything that he did by taking, you know, kind of older music and putting it together. When you reflect on like kind of what you guys do specifically, like what is it that you think makes it stand out or is unique,

beyond the fact that you're singing in Portuguese or in different languages and using these bossa nova kind of like overtones. I think there's a couple, you can go first. I'm curious what you'll say. I think it's a couple, you can go first. I'm curious what you'll say. I think it's just that we're two very different people. And so the combination of what he's inspired by and what I'm inspired by is often kind of bizarre

because there are not many people in bands with two people like us together in one band. Everybody assumes that you're together. You live together now. Yeah, like you spend all your time together, but you're not together together. And we'll be listening to different music. You know, if we're both sitting on a plane ride,

you couldn't imagine how different the music and our headphones are. It's a Venn diagram and it's like so much of the things that I like and that I do and that I'm interested in in life are things that do not and that I do and that I'm interested in in life are things that do not overlap with Sophie and vice versa. But the small overlapping moment is what Sophie Tucker is because we both love it so much

and we both get so excited about it. Even though our overall interest circles don't overlap that much. So like it's something like if we both get really, really excited about it, there's something special about it because coming from such different places, perspectives, backgrounds, we both still love that.

So it's gotta cover a decent amount of people. So you're in New York, you're in the Chinatown studio, like banging out this first EP. How long from that experience to like the SoundCloud, to Apple, to kind of having your first licensing thing and having like the visibility that comes with that? So basically- You happen pretty fast, right?

Not really. I mean, it depends how you look at it. It looks like it does. It's relative. Oh mean, it depends how you look at it, you know? It's relative. Oh yeah, relatively it did. But we made our first EP, pretty much finished our first EP. And then I-

In the summer after graduation. Yeah. And at the time, I was an obsessive runner. And I realized over time, there was this pain in my foot that I had a stress fracture in my sesamoid toe. And so I started wearing a boot on that leg, on that foot, sorry.

But I kept moving and I kept doing a ton. We were out like, we just moved to New York, we were out every night. It was such a fun time. But you know, you're walking a lot. Yeah, and dancing and on my feet. Anyway, and then I basically developed the pain in the other foot. So I had sesamoid fractures in both of my big toes.

And so my doctor just looked at me and he was like, you really only have one choice. You have to go into a wheelchair. So here I am in New York thinking, oh my God, I have no money. I did live a lot. And she lived in the worst, like six floor walk up in Chinatown.

Wow. Yeah. That place was bad. That was really bad. With like six people that you didn't know. Yeah. That place was bad. And so I just, I had one option, which was to go move home.

And at the time, my parents lived in the Netherlands. So I left New York, I went to the Netherlands and I was in a wheelchair. And we were just about to sort of launch this project together. And so I was like in New York, like, well, I don't wanna have to try to go get another job. Like, you know, basically asking my parents,

like, can you help me pay rent for a few more months? I think we have something special here and I don't wanna like abandon it, but Sophie has to go heal her feet. And I didn't know that my feet were going to be healed. You know, it was kind of a toss up too, because sesamoids, I guess they just, you just hope that they heal.

And you're like 21 and in a wheelchair right when your life is about to start. Yeah, and so I'm living with my parents and you know, my parents are kind of convincing me to apply to jobs. So I'm applying to jobs thinking maybe when I get out of the wheelchair, I'll be a, I don't know, mediator. Just when you're about to reach like escape velocity, you get pulled back in and re-indoctrinated

into it. I remember you were signing up to be a personal trainer. No. Yeah, I remember. were signing up to be a personal trainer. No. Yeah, I remember. That's absurd. That's crazy behavior. I know. Gosh, okay.

Well, not surprising. It turned out to be a really amazing period of time because for four months, Tucker and I- Was it four months? Yeah, it was four months. Tucker and I talked every single day on Skype. And at the time, we still weren't really friends. Like we didn't really know each other.

We hadn't really gotten vulnerable. And so now I think in some ways with the safety of, you know, it being on the internet instead of in person, I felt like I really got to know him. And I was in a really vulnerable spot. I was really anxious. I was scared. And I had been in that spot a few years earlier.

Right. Literally in bed. So you were able to kind of like trauma bond over your health ailments. I would say that's when we really became friends. Yeah. I was really able to relate and sort of help through it in an interesting way.

I also though was having a lot of anxiety because I didn't have anything going on. I didn't have a job. It was a weird time. Yeah. I got on Prozac back then actually. I was like had a couple of panic attacks. It was a weird time. It was a really weird time.

But I think, I mean, you know, Tucker is a six foot seven guy. He used to only wear black leather jackets and like there was an impenetrable kind of vibe. And suddenly I just saw this sort of softness under that. And like when he was going through panic attacks and anxiety and I was having all this fear and anxiety, I think suddenly we saw each other's humanity in a different way and became friends in a different way and became friends in a different way and We were able to say okay, if we're gonna start this band together, what's important to us? What are our values?

What do we like to look at like what fashion is interesting to us? What part of the world is interesting to us? You know We had to just ask all of these big questions and we had the time to actually mull it over. And it was an amazing period of time in the end. That's a very kind of mature way to approach, the kind of formation of a band to like exchange, what your values are at the outset.

Well, start a band. That's highly unusual I would imagine. If you have a chance to start a band with someone who studied conflict resolution. Yeah, you're right. You should take a internship after that. Because of course, the most successful bands all fall prey to their inability to navigate conflict.

And as like the success, as you sort of scale up your success, then the stakes get higher. And I would imagine like that ratchets up like the potential for explosiveness if you don't have those skills to kind of work through stuff. It's been communication for us,

like really outward open communication. If anything's ever bugging us, we don't like keep it inside and let it grow. It's just a talk it out. And I'm a full goldfish. Like I was a shooter in basketball. You know, if you missed 10, that means you're gonna make the next 10.

You forget about the last shot and you just make the next shot. It's amazing for me. So like, so there's no, you don't have like, there's no residue for the- If we have like the worst fight ever. Yeah. I literally forget about it.

That's a superpower, actually. It really is. Yeah, also start a band with a goldfish. Who will just forgive you for anything you say, you know? I'm just not very sensitive. If you can't like say something that's gonna like kill me, also, I don't know. Like I'm sensitive in ways, but not like.

What is the, like the impetus between, you guys are not together, but you live together. Like, why did you make that decision? Did it not occur to you that maybe your relationship would be healthier if you had at least some separation? Didn't occur to us at all. I mean. Relentless. Yeah, relentless. So then it could at all. I mean, relentless. Yeah, relentless.

So then it could just be two, four, seven. It's just two, four, right, yeah. Yeah, but I actually think- You don't wanna miss a single opportunity to- Just ideas, like when you get inspired, like we're excitable people, we work off excitement. So if I'm just chilling on a Sunday and I have a great idea, she's there. and we just will like cancel plans and hit it.

Savvy, Savvy! I'll make her cancel plans and we hit it. Yeah, but I will say that I think that right now in the evolution of our band, I feel like we're kind of individuating for the first time. You know, we're kind of like, maybe we don't have to live together. You know, I think we're accepting that we have,

like Tucker did a gig without me for the first time, like last week. But it was a private gig. It wasn't like a, you know, it was like a wedding. But still, like that's the first time it ever happened. Not like a wedding, DJ wedding. Yeah. Sophie Tucker performance at a wedding. I get it.

So I think there is, yeah, we kind of had a coming together where, you know, we moved in together, what, five years ago, probably, and it just worked really well. Six years ago, seven, six, seven, six years ago. Yeah. But he just bought a house on his own as an example. So where- Yeah, but the first few places we lived, we like split them, so we bought them together. And then we still live together. I mean, I technically bought this house in Las Vegas

and she has like, you know, I made sure it had like a good separate private area that Sophie would like. So she'd like to be there. But still he gets to go decorate the house exactly how he wants to do it. Hell yeah. How does it work though? If like, you get like when you're cohabitating

and like you like are dating somebody else or you're bringing other people back and like, you know, like it just, you're just, it creates a complex dynamic, I would imagine. For sure complex. I mean- You're kind of dating both of us in a way. Yeah.

That comes with the package. Like not really. That's a stretch, but yeah, we definitely come- Well it's a litmus test too, because if you bring someone in and they can't handle that, they're out immediately, right? I think we also both handle it very differently, but our dating lives are also very differently.

Different, sorry. Well, I mean, you know, I dated his best friend and his best friend lived with us. So that was a dynamic for a while where it was kind of just the three of us. It wasn't really like, yeah, he was my boyfriend, but also they were best friends. So that worked really well, actually. And then I think when he brings girls back. Back. Like she's my mother.

To our house, yeah, I know. I'm just very- She's judgy like my mother. I'm not judgy, I'm just boundaried. She's judgy. I'm boundaried until- She's hot off your Hoffman experience. Yeah. Yeah, she's cold.

Laying down the boundaries. I can be kind of cold. She scares them away for sure. Uh-huh. Yeah, but only, only until if I see that he really cares about them, you know? I care, I always care about them. No, but like if they're really gonna be a part of your life, then I think then, but I'm this way with everybody, I think. I'm just, I have boundaries unless I open the floodgates. So I'm not like- My floodgates are pretty open.

Yeah. But we live together, so it's different. Sure. Tucker's more of the like, be friends with everyone. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Have everyone over there like, fam even though they met like a week ago. But it's amazing.

Having like a clubhouse feel. Right, I mean, that's the vibe that I get from you. Maybe that comes from basketball or maybe that's innate to you, but like you're like a team player guy who needs a lot of people around all the time. And Sophie strikes me as somebody who maybe isn't always down for that.

Not in a derogatory way, like your quiet time, your down regulation, solo time is important. Yeah, I spend a lot of time in float tanks. I do. I do, yeah. You know where they are in all the cities where you visit? I do. She does.

Really? Yeah, I've never been in one. Literally every city. How do you guys down regulate after a show? I mean, these shows you guys do go into the wee hours, right? And then you're traveling to the next city. I just know like, even if I just do like a talk in front of people, like it takes me a long time to like, I can't just go to sleep.

How do you like deescalate those experiences that are so like hyper peak, you know, with thousands of people and then do it night after night after night without exhausting yourselves? Super differently. Super different. Like everything else. Yeah. I can just go to sleep.

Isn't that amazing? You can just sleep anywhere. Yeah. That's another superpower. I mean, yeah, yeah. Not always, but pretty much I just go to sleep. And I do a lot of different things. I mean, one thing I do is a float tank.

I feel like doing that once a week is a game changer for me. And I found one in pretty much every city in the world. They're everywhere now. They're everywhere, yeah. But like when you conclude a show for the night and you're like, I only have this amount of time to sleep. Like I gotta like figure out how to like. I feel like it used to be harder,

but I'm actually much better at managing it now. I mean, I just go... She used to be really extra. She'd have like a two hour wind down routine. Yeah. But at the time I think it was just... And this is when we had to like share rooms cause we like weren't making any money

and we couldn't afford to like have separate rooms. And she would literally be like stretching for two hours. Yeah. And I was like, go to bed. I mean, now I have a physical cool down, I have a vocal cool down. It's short, it's like five, 10 minutes. And then I go into my bunk,

I read a book or I watch something, putting my legs up the wall. Sometimes I take something to sleep if we're on the bus and I know it's gonna be a shaky night. I mean, I've kind of also embraced that sometimes like pharmaceuticals are great. So- Effective. Yeah, when needed, it's better than like back to back

to back really bad night of sleep. Yeah, I mean, you're not like sober, sober, but in the EDM world, I would imagine you're very sober. Right? Like you're basically in these environments that are like, you know, just off the rails, like every single night, just insane amounts of drugs and alcohol.

No, I would say I'm sober, sober. You are, you're sober, sober. Besides like a sleeping pill every now and then? Yeah, like I forget what I take, but I just start taking it from my- That's not California sober when you smoke pot but you don't drink, right? It's some version of California sober.

Yeah, when I say taking something, I'm talking about like Benadryl, you know? Oh, okay, you're not talking about like Valium or- No, no. Ativan or something. That would be too intense for my system. I'm so sensitive. When we go on like a European flight and she's like,

I'm gonna take Xanax or something, it's 1 16th, and she'll like still panic if she takes it. It's crazy. I actually did panic because I was like, I don't like when things are happening to my body that I don't, that are unfamiliar, that I don't know. Cause I, because I've been sober for over 10 years. So any, and I don't really like, I mean, it's,

it's kind of new that I've even embraced that maybe it's okay to like take one 16th of his annex on a plane, you know? But the first time I did it, I was like really panicking. I looked over at Tucker and I was like, I just feel like something's happening in my body and I don't know what it is. And he was just like, Sophie calm down, everything's gonna be okay.

You know. You're good. It's pretty anachronistic that you guys are so like oriented around like wellbeing and like taking care of yourself in a world that is sort of, you know, cross purposes with that. Like every, like everything about that world that you inhabit is like working against that.

Yep. Kinda, but I also think that's part of our goal, the shared relentless goal that we have to grow and continue growing this like community and this thing that we started together out of air. You know, it's so cool. And we know if we wanna keep traveling and performing the way we do,

we have to treat it like we're athletes or else we're gonna hate life. You know, we're not gonna be charming when we get up early to go to a radio station and have an interview. We're gonna not enjoy life. We're gonna be charming when we get up early to go to a radio station and have an interview. We're gonna not enjoy life. We're gonna be rude to people. It would change everything.

So, and I mean, I'm not sober, sober, but like, you know, I'll have a drink here and there and pop off occasionally, but like we're pretty much athletes, you know. And you're modeling it to not just your audience, but other musicians as well. Like that's part of the change in the world, Sophie. Yeah.

You feel good about that. I mean, a lot of people do come to us, and they just ask us, how do you do it? Because either they're thinking of becoming sober or they see that we're able to withstand the schedule that we have and they wanna know how. And a lot of it does have to do with these kind of boring, simple, but amazing little tricks

that we've learned. But I also think that it's important not to discount the role that joy plays in wellness. To be truly well and truly healthy, I think being really happy and joyful and having these experiences of ecstatic dancing and connection is huge for health. Like I feel like all of ourselves in our bodies are like,

oh yay. That's the experience you're trying to create in your shows. Like it's really a joy spreading kind of happiness, you know, experience. So it's not like the environments that we're in or that we're creating our, and like going against, you know, being healthy.

I think they actually work together. For example, you're playing in Vegas tonight, right? Yeah. At like what casino? Yeah, one to three. Like one of those like pool party like kind of situations. Tonight's a nightclub, so it's inside one a.m. to three a.m.

I mean, those are pretty unhinged environments. That's not the most healthy environment. But the past two months, we've been on our live show tour, which is a concert. Most of the shows are from like nine to 1030. It's, you know, we have dancers, you know, I ice after the shows, we tour on a tour bus. They're not, the hours aren't that crazy.

I was gonna say this earlier when you said, what makes a unique separate from the Portuguese and stuff? And I think I never answered it, but I was going to say, we have a live show, which is like a concert. It's like a spectacle and experience, a show to watch. But then we also will have a residency in Vegas, where we DJ, and it's a party. And it's a totally different experience.

And then we're also now doing these like stripped or going to do, we haven't really announced it yet, but there's gonna be this like sort of jazz show and stripped down and doing all those things, but being ourselves, you know, there usually just isn't like a DJ act who plays in Vegas who will also do a jazz show in a Blue Note or something like that.

And I think it's cause- That's super different. It's just different. And we don't feel limited to genres, which I do think in dance music, it's very genre specific. So I think it's good and bad. Sometimes we don't fit in

and then it's harder for people to understand what are we. If they're coming to a Sophie Tucker show, they're like, well, first of all, most people think Sophie Tucker is one girl named Sophie Tucker. And then, so they're like, who's the tall guy with Sophie Tucker? Yeah. So like, we're working against that already.

It's sort of like a Eurythmics situation a little bit. And the next Dave Stewart, yeah. And it's like, so then, you know, and then it's like, well, is it a DJ set or is it a live concert? Are they gonna be playing instruments? Are they gonna be DJing? Or Sophie gonna be playing an acoustic guitar

and singing jazz music? Like- Could be any of it. You know, well, we try to make it clear. We try to make it as clear as possible and understand what you're getting into. But it's a plus and a negative because I think sometimes it's better for people to just know

exactly what you are. Yeah, they can't pigeon hole you, but what makes you interesting is the fact that it's different, even if it challenges people to figure out how to like where they're supposed to compartmentalize you or plug you in. The other thing that also really excites me is, typically if you're going to Vegas,

we're playing at Marquee tonight from one to three AM, you're almost always gonna see a dude DJ up there with a bunch of girls and like little outfits dancing around. When you come to our show, first of all, I think I am the, like maybe the only woman on the lineup of this year. Yeah, the residency lineup. And we bring our like fabulous flamboyant dancers of all different genders.

And the show that we put on in that same environment is so different than if you were to go to that nightclub on any other night. And that really, I really am excited by that. Yeah, that drives us. I'm proud of that, yeah. Sort of changing culture a little. So you're changing the world. I heard you tell a story about,

I think you were in Paris and you were backstage at some event and there was a French band that was going on and like they couldn't believe that you weren't drinking before the show. Do you know what I'm talking about? Yeah, actually. I know exactly what you're talking about.

Yeah, they really couldn't believe that we weren't gonna get drunk before the show. People always think we're on all sorts of drugs or that we're drinking or I mean- Well, it's an easy assumption to make because if you're in this world, like obviously maybe that's what attracts you to it or must be part of your experience as well.

I mean, what is it? I love the music. What is your green room routine and like what's on the rider? We like work out in the green room usually. We have our tees. This is our, these are our tees, the mate tees. We have on our rider. I know, I was gonna ask you about this.

It's very smart to put them in cans that sort of look like Red Bull. Yeah. That's very like consistent, you know, with the world. It's like a healthy energy rather than something else. And then- It's like mate tea. Yeah, it is mate tea. It's mate tea.

It's really clean. Novo, when did you start this? So it's actually, we got involved a few years ago. It's originally a Cachaca company. So it's the alcohol that is a Brazilian rum that you make out of sugar cane and you put in a caipirinha, which is like the Brazilian national drink.

And Sophie, as a sober person, basically was like, look, I love this company. I love the mission. And they plant a lot of, they're doing a lot of reforestation in the rainforest in Brazil. And Sophie was like, but I'm sober. And I feel a little uncomfortable

representing an alcohol company. And everyone was like, makes sense. But she said, but can we make a non-alcoholic, you know, part of it and like something that she can really get behind? And so that's what NovoFo does. Yeah, one of the things that I love about it is that we have an alcoholic version of this. And so you really feel like you're

participating in the same way when you have this. But then Tucker has the alcoholic version that's slightly different and it's a different color. But we're still at the same party, having the best time ever. Not feeling like we're in totally separate planets. Right. Yeah.

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is next level. It is truly Swiss innovation at its best. Visit on.com slash richroll. That's on.com slash richroll. The rider. So you're working out in the green room ahead of time. You have foam rollers. Yeah, I actually stopped foam rolling though. Turns out it's not very good for me. But we have a yoga mat, we have weights,

do a little workout. We have protein bars. It also depends if it's what type of show we're doing. So our live show will really get like fully sweaty and warmed up before the show starts so that we come out right away. And a DJ said it's a little more casual, a little less preparation because we don't have to put our bodies through as much.

So it depends. But I've even started doing vocal warmups recently because I'm singing a little bit more. But Sophie's really good about that. Yeah, I guess the rider does range a lot. I mean, we have a pretty extensive rider during our live show. All sorts of healthy foods. You mean like what's on the rider?

It's like avocados and pulled chicken, olive oil, gluten-free bread. We make full meals. We just make little meals. Are the stagehand guys like, are you sure? This is all you want? Yeah. But which bottles of alcohol do you love?

I can hook you up, I got a guy. Was it 2000? So you're back from the wheelchair experience. You're back in New York. And how long was it before the Apple thing? Cause that was really like kind of your first break, right? That's correct. I had just gotten out of the wheelchair

and then we put it on SoundCloud and Apple reached out to us and said, hey, we want to put your song in a commercial. And we just looked at each other. We're like, is this the real Apple email? What is this? Is this a joke?

We thought a friend was like punking us because it was through a different, you didn't have like.apple or anything. And which I guess, I don't know, everyone can have a.apple. I don't know. We were shocked. But it's real.

How long had it been on, was it getting a lot of activity there? I think a couple of weeks. Not much. It was getting activity. It was because back then it was early Spotify streaming days. So it was basically there's a lot of blogs on the internet and people like had these like tastemaker blogs and there was like an aggregate called Hype Machine. And basically if a bunch of blogs were posting

about your song, it would go to this aggregate list. And if it gets to number one, a lot of people, it's sort of a tastemaker thing to pay attention to, but I was really paying attention to it a lot. And Trinky went to the top of it for like the full amount of time it could. And then went back on the list and went to the top again. And we were like, something's going on here.

But it didn't like have, you know, compared to a standard today, it had no nothing. But at the time we were like, something's bubbling, but we didn't know where to start. We didn't have a manager, we didn't have a lawyer, we didn't have anything. So we got this email and we were like, we need a lawyer. Like they're gonna send over a contract,

we don't know what any of this means. Right. Yeah, and it was real, we were able to pay rent suddenly, so I stopped looking for other jobs. And then we just kind of went full force and started being really relentless. So that was, what year was that? 2016.

And the following year, I think it was- No, I think it was 15, and then it got nominated for a Grammy. It got a Grammy nomination. For dance record of the year, and it was the 2016 Grammy. And this was the song that we made during college. At Brown. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Where I had never played the electric guitar before, and it was the Portuguese poem.

So yes, you've been doing it 10 years and maybe I was a little overly excited about compressing the timeline, but that's still like literally the thing you made, you know, quickly in college that I'm sure you iterated on and improve before it became what it became. But like that gets nominated for a Grammy.

And you guys figure that out before you even really knew each other. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that was a crazy moment. We were doing a music video shoot on the day we found out and we didn't know it was even entered in the running. We didn't know it was a possibility. Never in our wildest dreams.

And I looked at my phone after some scene in a shoot and it said like 300 texts or something. And I was like, what the hell is going on? So you weren't even thinking that that could be a possibility or whatever. We didn't know that was the day the nominations are coming out. It was not on our radar.

We were just trying to like, have people know who we were somehow. What was it like to go to the Grammys for the first time? It was terrifying. Really? Yeah. Why? Well, because I had never like posed on a red carpet before. I found that very intimidating.

That's shocking now. No, it's not. We were at an event last night. Sophie is the most fashion forward. Like you're made for this shit. You have no idea how much that is. Not a true statement. When we started the band,

she literally was like, I don't like fashion. I don't think it's good for the world. That is shocking. I'm like not interested. You're all about the fashion. I'm not into it. Oh for the world. That is shocking. I'm like not interested. You're all about the fashion. I'm not into it. Oh my God, I love that that's what it looks like.

And I was like, I kinda like fashion. I would like try to do a dual RISD brown fashion program for him that I couldn't do because of basketball. So the art thing was there. It was like always in the back of my mind, but everything was backburnered for basketball. I was definitely not like the typical athlete, but it was different.

Athletes all wore like the same like sports teams, hoodies and sweatpants and stuff. And I like didn't and my coach was kind of like, why don't you hang out and dress like the guys more? And I was just a little more, I don't know. The seeds. The seeds were there. The seeds were there. Like, did you notice even when we walked in

that I asked Tucker, like, this shirt or this shirt? Like this pants or this pants? Like he's kind of- No, no, no, no. I've made, when I look back on things, I've made some horrible decisions. Okay, yeah, that is also true. That is also true.

Well, if you're gonna be fashion forward, a lot of it's not gonna age well. It's true. That's true. That's what I try to tell Sophie. That just goes with the game, right? When I see old photos, I try to make that argument. It could get rough.

But anyway, you're at the Grammys and you're overwhelmed by it. Yeah, well, I think that the experience of going to the Grammys, watching the Grammys, being around all these other artists, that was really cool. For me, the thing that was intimidating and just scary was the red carpet and the dressing up and the posing,

that stuff, which honestly, it's funny that it feels like that is me, but it still makes me uncomfortable. Last night we were at an event. Well, because there's the contrived nature of what that process is like to walk those carpets and stand there. Oh my God, it's so weird.

But the fashion piece though, like just the way you kind of like, you know, rock it out. Like to me, I would have assumed that that was sort of a natural thing for you. No, no, it's definitely new. And I definitely get a lot of help on purpose because I feel like I could walk out of the door and just wear things that I would deeply regret. And actually in many ways at both of the Grammys that we went to, I kind of regret what I wore

actually and I remember being like, oh yeah, let's try that new hairstyle. That looks good on that person. And then they did it. And then I walked to the red carpet and I looked at pictures. I was like, I should have never tried a new thing on such a sort of visible moment. But- Will we learn? Yeah, it's always a learning.

Like even last night we went to a red carpet and as we were in the car, I was thinking, oh, it would be important maybe to figure out how to pose, you know, in these jeans, you know? And then I got there and I was like, oh, too late be important maybe to figure out how to pose in these jeans. And then I got there and I was like, oh, too late, whatever, I don't care. But I was kind of uncomfortable and I was kind of posing weird.

And it's just, it's very unnatural for me. It's something that you actually do have to- I think it's good that it maintains its unnatural quality. If it starts becoming too natural, then I think maybe that's consuming. The worst part of those, the photographers are like, who are you? And they're like, why should I care?

And I'm like, I don't know. Let me just walk, I don't know. Or like that you walk by all the people like doing interviews and they just don't wanna talk to you. And he's like, okay. Because someone more important is like, welcome to Los Angeles basically.

Yeah, it's just so. So yeah, you went twice because you had an album nominated in 2019, right? So you've been twice nominated. Now you have something like three billion streams or some crazy number that you can't wrap your head around. It is something crazy that I can't wrap my head around. What were the other kind of,

were there other big kind of like breakthrough inflection point moments? Or has it just been the grind of, like the relentless sort of grind of building upon each little win? I feel like in a sort of era of like viral things, we have been kind of on like a slow growth, you know?

I mean, slow relative, you know, I'm sure it's not slow, slow, but like, there was never a crazy moment when all of a sudden we had a number one hit and things are crazy. It's been really like a, we're growing this community, we're figuring out who we are slowly, even with clothes or even with how we act or anything, how we eat, I wasn't gluten-free when we started. There's so many things that I feel like we're learning about ourselves and it contributes to our growth in different ways.

Yeah, I kind of feel like the most recent tour we did was an inflection point, but not in a really big explosion kind of way. It was more just that I feel it solidified what we're about to the people who came to the show. And so we just finished the North American live show tour for our album Bread. And we put so much into this show. I mean, it was more production and sort of volume, quality of everything. I mean, we just put a lot into the show.

And it felt like the entire audience came dressed up, like ready to have the time of their life. We got to talk to a lot of people at like the VIP thing before the shows and kind of hear from them about what the album meant to them. And it was just internally, I think, a really big inflection point because we got to actually see how our message has been translating. And it just feels like it's very cohesive or intentional. Yeah, it feels like it's making sense right now. People are finally sort of able to make sense of it

in their own minds. Yeah, it felt like from an outsider looking in who knows nothing, like it was a leveling up a year. Like you did like the today, you were in New York, when you launched, you did the today show, right? Or like one of those morning shows and like the video that you made going down, you know, like on the street with all,

like all of that felt like, oh, this is entering like a more kind of mainstream awareness, consciousness level with what you're doing and all the like time square billboards and all that kind of stuff that came with that. It's felt good. Yeah, like it's just keeps sort of growing. And I think for me, I don't know,

I have trouble reflecting. I just not trouble. It's cool when we do it. I just don't do it much. Cause I don't remember anything that happened. But like I'm always looking to keep the momentum and like what's next is just how I feel like I'm built, which I think is not good for some things,

but also it keeps the shit moving. And so I'm always thinking like, okay, we just finished that tour, you know, I can't wait to the next bigger tour, you know, that's just, and I don't know if you're always thinking like that. Yeah, I think we're a little bit different in this way. I definitely also think about what's next, but I think maybe I reflect more or? Probably. Yeah. I don't know. Hmm. I think maybe I reflect more or?

Probably. Yeah. I don't know. But I kind of feel like we do also pause, you know, to just be like, this is really cool. Like this is something that we dreamed of and now we're doing it. I'm glad you do that. In the moment. Like just the word pause in and of itself.

Like it doesn't, cause when you look at like your life, it doesn't look like there's any pause. I don't know if pause is the right word. Well, I also feel like there's a surprising amount of pause. Like the schedule looks crazy, but I feel very, I don't feel crazy at all. Like I used to feel crazy, but I feel like now- Because you acclimated to it

or you found a way to like be a quantumist amidst all of it or like, okay. When we finish our show. No, I'm being totally serious. I hope you're gonna sleep a little bit before you have to go on stage at one o'clock in the morning tonight. No. But then the problem, the real problem is

we get off at three and our plane takes off at six to go to New York. And then we land and you lose the time and then we play when we get there. Okay, so I used to freak to New York. And then we land and you lose the time. And then we play when we get there. Okay, so I used to freak out about that. Call her then. No, but I used to freak out about that all the time. And I used to be like, oh my God,

I'm only getting three hours of sleep tonight. I'm freaking out, I'm freaking out. I don't feel well. Oh my God. But now I keep this log and I've been keeping it for a while. And I think sleep tracking is really dangerous for me because I get really obsessed with the numbers.

You would just be in the red all the time. Yeah. But the truth is- It would start to wear away on your brain. Yeah, I do count how many hours I sleep and the quality of my sleep. And I look at it only after a week has passed. And then I know over the course of seven days

how much I've slept on average. And every single week, I always sleep the same amount. That's what's so crazy. Over a seven day period of time, I'm always between 7.5 to 8.5 hours a night. Whether I have a week where I'm sleeping, you know, consistently eight hours a night or whether I'm having a week. It'll be three, four, five, twelve.

Yeah. And so I kind of stopped freaking out about the three hour a night thing a while ago once I realized that my body always recalibrates and will figure it out. And I haven't gotten sick in a long time. I feel really healthy. I feel like we do have moments to pause. Even doing things like going to the float tank, these are these moments where I feel

like we do have a lot of space in our life to pause and just be like, wow, we just sold out the Santa Barbara Bowl. That's so cool, because we opened for Odez at the Santa Barbara Bowl four years ago. And that was always a dream of ours, and now we're here. And I've always wanted to be on the Rich Roll podcast, and now we're here. I mean, that's so cool.

Actually true. This is like a pinchy moment. Come on. No, it is. I'm dead serious. No, not kidding. I'm dead serious. I reached out to you thinking, they're not going to come.

I freaked out. I was like honored. We've been talking about you for six, seven years. Like a long time. Yeah. A really long time. Awesome. Thank you.

Thank you. I'm curious about like how the business of it all works. Like the music business has changed so much and it continues to change. Like how does it all work? Like what's fact, what's fiction? I mean, my sense is touring is now like, that's how you do it.

You're not doing it on album sales. And we've all heard what streaming revenue is on these platforms and you have to diversify. You've got like, you know, we have this Novofogo and you've got like merch and all kinds of other stuff. But like, how do you think about it? Like, what is the brass tacks of like the sort of business economic end

of like how it is that you do what you do? There's a lot of ways to do it, I think. And it depends on the genre of music is really different. Like the industries are completely different. How things are handled, how contracts are handled. Like when you get paid, depending on industries are completely different, how things are handled, how contracts are handled, like when you get paid, depending on if you're like in pop or hip hop or dance, and we're kind of, you know, in dance and pop and alternative somewhere, you know, in there, more in dance than the other.

But I would say for us, an interesting thing is you don't really make money touring as a band. When we DJing, there's much less overhead. So we can go with the USB stick and headphones. We can go to a club, there's already lights and you just maybe bring a USB to give to a visual person and then you have a full show and that doesn't cost much. And so you can take home more money DJing for sure.

But the live show, you're pretty much losing, we were losing money touring for the first four years. Wow. And the reason we were able- Just because all the costs and the transfer and the crew and all the flights. Right, right, yeah. Everyone, like we were able- Just because all the costs and the transfer and the crew and all the- The flights. Everyone, like we were starting,

our first headline tour ever, we had done like three opening tours, which you're barely getting by, if anything. And we're like following some band on a tour bus in like a rented Chrysler Town and Country with one other person with us, who's a sound guy and a tour bus in like a rented Chrysler town and country with one other person with us, who's a sound guy and a tour manager. We put up things, break it down before the shows

on stage in front of people. Like, you know, we're sharing a room, like those things. And then the reason we were able to do all this and lose money on it as an investment was because we were sinking, which is like the commercials. Right, so the licensing is a big- The licensing. He's sort of powering the whole thing for a while.

I would say four or five years, 90% of our income was from licensing. I looked on IMDB, you guys have like 31 credits of your stuff showing up in movies and TV. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it turns out that we make music that works really well in licensing, which isn't always the case also for people, but you know, so far, knock on wood,

it's served us really well. I think it was in 2018, we got in a, we were nominated for best licensing artist in the top five in like the world. And the other artists were like Katy Perry We were nominated for best licensing artist in the top five in like the world. And other artists were like Katy Perry and like some huge names. And we were like, this is so weird. That's crazy.

And our manager- So sort of like quietly the moneymaker. Yeah. You gotta do your other stuff. Kinda, our manager who's like an old school, really great guy was like, just so you know, it's not always gonna be like this. It's like an old school, really great guy was like, just so you know, it's not always gonna be like this. It's like pop music.

There's like, you're hot. You're the new kids. Among all the licensing directors and all these shows and Netflix and all these places. And one day, it's gonna be some other new band that they're all excited about and it's not gonna always be like this. But for us, it was like that for a little while.

And luckily, we grew our touring and invested enough in it to that once you get, he always used to say, when you get to a thousand cap rooms, you're gonna start being able to make money on touring. And because we're crazy and we always want the best show ever, when we got to a thousand cab rooms.

We wanted lasers. We need to, we need lasers. We need dancers, we need this. So then he's like, okay, when you get to 5,000 capacity rooms and we kind of keep being ridiculous like that. It's like the Wall Street investment banker who keeps like, well, when I get to the,

but just keeps buying more and more shit. Yeah, like, yeah, I'll be rich when I make this much money, but your house now cost a million dollars a year. And so I think for us, it's worth it because we wanna invest in the artistry and keep growing it. And I think a lot of people maybe, you know, will make those artistic decisions because of they wanna make money on a certain tour

and then they kind of get stuck in that level of capacity rooms. Right. And sometimes it's the right move, but sometimes for us, it's more important to like make the best show possible possible. Yeah, because ultimately that's the investment that you're making for the longer game, right?

And it does pay off, you know, then a festival offer will come and they'll be like, well, your show is so big, you know, just visually it's so big that it can actually fit in this stage. And so then you get a good offer for that festival. I think they look at it a little more numbers wise. So they'll say, okay, you sold 15,000 tickets in this city,

like hard tickets just for you. And then they'll sort of okay, you sold 15,000 tickets in this city, like hard tickets just for you. And then they'll sort of calculate and be like, okay, this was worth this much for a festival set. And festival sets do pay a lot more than like a headline show, but you do the headline show to show the festival bookers in that region, your pull basically. Yeah. So you have a team, you have a lawyer, you have a manager,

you've got, you know, all the kind of typical people that a band of your kind of size and stature would have, you're on a label, right? Yes. Are you? Kind of independent. You're independent. So you're doing it without, that's interesting.

Yeah. You were on a label previously. Like I was just kind of like, I just wanted to YouTube and put your name in to see like what videos would show up that aren't on your channel. And I saw some really big videos with a lot of views that were like on a label channel.

And I just assumed that was your label, but that was your previous label. Well, so kind of, but basically that was our previous label ex US. So we were signed to Ultra, but not in the United States. I see. We had a distribution, but not in the United States. I see. We had a distribution deal with them in the US, but we were technically independent in the US. So we were on Ultra for the rest of the world, and so we would upload our YouTube

videos with them, for instance. But it did mean that we had a very different situation, you know, financially and also artistically, because we've always been able to call the shots because if we're independent in the US, we're like, okay, we wanna release X song in a month or whatever. And then the rest of the world kind of has to follow suit and we get to play, point guard if that's the right metaphor. Yeah. Yeah, is that good?

So then you own your masters. Yes. Yeah, which is huge. Just licensed them out. And you've been able to do this without like, yeah, that's very cool. I didn't know that. Really interesting thing about that move.

And this was all our manager who's the best guy ever, Neil Harris, just a great dude. And I don't know if we're like divulging too much, but I mean, this is all, no, I mean, this is, this is what it is, or what it was. We're not in this deal anymore. I'm just interested in like how an artist thinks about like their own rights and what they're creating

and how much control they are able to exert over like, you know, how it's distributed and everything that comes with that. That's always been really important to us. I think we've always wanted to call the creative decisions. And I think for what we do, it makes most sense for us to do that.

Some people, it probably does make more sense to be on a major label who can pull the levers to like make you have the biggest radio hit in the world, you know, like we might not be able to do certain things like that without a lot of help or like we could go out and hire people on our own with our own money. But like we don't necessarily have all the power behind it. But the interesting thing about that deal with Altra was because we were sinking like crazy,

especially at that time with commercials and movies and things, because we did not sign to any label in the US and all of the sinking, not all, I'd say 98% of the sinking opportunities that came to us were from the United States. You get to keep all that money. We get the master and the publishing side.

If we had signed, we wouldn't have known this, but if we had signed like most people would have with Altra worldwide, we would have had 50% of that income. They would have gotten 50% of every single one of those sinks. Wow. So like, that's a lot different.

That is a lot. That is a lot. And you've already done a lot of the hard work that a band would rely upon a label to do early in your career to kind of get you to where you're at. And obviously I'm sure there's still, if you were to go with a label, there are certain levers that they could pull

that could probably accelerate like, your trajectory or whatever. And I would imagine, especially with the latest album, like that they're knocking, I'm sure you're getting approached for that. I mean, we talk about it all the time because right now we're on, or actually we're not on anything right now

because we just did a deal with Virgin who is the independent arm of Universal. So technically we're still independent artists. I don't know, like the verbiage is a little bit confusing. Like a distribution deal. Like an output deal. Exactly. But they also, to give them more credit, there's a bunch of really smart people at Virgin and they help a lot.

And Ultra also was extremely good to us. Like we've had incredible experiences and honestly in our entire business, like from management to label to, we've had a really amazing experience with people that we've gotten to work with. But this means that you both have to be entrepreneurs, right? Because when you're considering a tour,

like you're responsible for the outlay, right? Like you've got to underwrite this thing. You're not looking, a label's not taking care of that stuff. That's on you guys. Like that is a lot, that's a lot. The music videos, the album artwork, everything. You pay for all of it. Everything, yeah.

Like we kind of went nuts on this most recent album, Bread, because we had such a clear vision of what we wanted to do artistically and for the music videos, and we... We spent a lot of money. We spent a lot of money on it. And I don't regret it at all. And I think that was part of the leveling up this year

that felt like we were really doing it to the next level. And for us as an independent artist, that's, you know, investing in ourselves. Cause also the deals are just bank loans otherwise. Right. You know, if someone else is paying for it, you're paying them back. Yeah, I know.

I know. And, but you don't think of it that way. And so you don't, you're not as cost conscious. It's easier not to, not to upfront the money. Right, it's your cash. It's easier on your life. That even makes it more impressive when you're like, all right, we're at this level of venue.

Like we're gonna up our production. You know, like you're incurring that risk. It's definitely a risk that we take, yeah. Wow. And how much does these other kind of like ancillary streams come into play like merch and sponsor deals with brands and things like that? Like that's, I mean, you guys are like,

do you have a CEO? Like who manages all of this stuff? Cause you, especially when you're not sleeping and you're playing every single night, like there's a lot of business that has to get transacted. There's a lot of business. Yeah. Yeah transacted. There's a lot of business. Yeah. Yeah, we have our manager, Neil, who's kind of,

you know, I would say overseeing everything. We have awesome agents at WME who, you know, some are our show agents, some are our partnership agents, some are our private agents. Privates are another thing, if you're just talking business for artists that- Like playing that, playing like flying to Dubai and playing some birthday party.

Yes, but it's not just Dubai. We've never been to Dubai very yet. There's really wealthy people everywhere and a lot of them like to party and have shows. That's the other quiet kind of like- They don't wanna go to a concert, they wanna bring their own concert. And that is a huge income stream for a lot of artists.

And you don't post about it on socials because it's a private thing. And people don't necessarily know that like the day's off when it looks like the schedule you saw, I don't think it had the privates on there because maybe it did. It did, that was my private schedule. That was the private, you got the real shit.

I got the real one. Well got the real one, yeah. Well, I just keep that for my friends so they know where I am. They're like, hey, wanna hang out? And I'm like, here, let me just send you something. So in the kind of pie, like how does it break down percentage wise? Like the private party thing,

like that is like, that's on the larger end of like the percentage. I wouldn't say at this point, we were just doing a lot of scheduling for next year. And it depends on the year. Like this year we had an album. So we did our live show touring and that takes like three or four months off the table

for big DJ gigs, festival gigs, and privates for the most part, because we're kind of investing that time and building the brand. So like, we're not making as much money in those months as we would have if we didn't do that tour. But in the long run, I think we are. But so like this year, I don't know what the pie would be for percentages. I mean, I do know know what the pie would be for percentages.

I mean, I do know what it is. I looked at it recently. Is there a pie? How much, I'd be interested in like, how much of it is revenue from the streaming platforms? So it's a surprisingly large amount for us actually. Yeah. Can we own it?

Yeah, and we didn't expect it to be as big as it was actually. And that was a really exciting moment for us actually when we saw that streaming is paying off. But a lot of it was like the catalog. Like it's not just like the new songs we put out now that, you know, have, you know, 20 million. And that catalog just increases in value with every new contribution to it. And I'm sure, you know, in the olden days

it would have been more and obviously different, but I think, you know, we kind of- But you would have had to have been on a label and you would be splitting that up with a lot of people. Yeah. Yeah. It's different. Who knows if we ever would have, in the olden days,

you know, the only artists who you would get introduced to were people that labels, you know, paid the radio stations to play. And there's only a certain amount of them that would get signed. I don't think they would have signed a Portuguese singing, guitar, dance, music band. So I don't, you know, yes. If we had a Grammy nominated album

in the time of CDs and vinyls, we would have made a lot more money. Would we have had that? You wouldn't have had that opportunity. A Grammy nominated? I don't think so. So like, you can't really. How do you think about like those platforms

like Spotify, Amazon, Apple Music, all of those, like I'm sure you have relationships at all of those places. I was just at a event the other day for Spotify. Like they put on this whole thing at the headquarters here in LA, they're introducing all these new tools for podcasters and the creator economy. And they put on a huge show and it's like impressive to see a company who's thinking about these things

and trying to iterate. But I also, you know, I'm well aware that like anything they're introducing is benefiting them more than, you know, it's like they're creating a better experience for the audience and they're creating these tools for the creators, but ultimately it's about like growing their platform and their premium subscriber base, right? So you need them because they're what's spreading

everything out into the world. How do you kind of like think about those relationships? I don't think too much about the sort of technology and the changing technology because I just don't feel like I could keep up. But I think we just try to have really good relationships, period, across the board. And our team is amazing.

We just have really great people working for us and making sure that we're giving attention to all of our different relationships. And their fingers are on the pulse in terms of what's happening with Amazon music versus Apple And they're also, their fingers are on the pulse in terms of what's happening with Amazon Music versus Apple Music versus, oh, actually in this country, like Deezer has a bigger market share.

So like, let's make sure that we're super serving them. And I think, you know, Tuck and I for the most part are just kind of like, we're here to, like we love running the business. You're focused on doing the important thing, which is like focusing on your music. Yeah, and we've delegated, you know, thinking about the technology and the pulse

and the market shares and that kind of thing to some really smart people. And then we do our best to keep up. And it can be a lot because, you know, there's like at any given time, just so many different partners to be sort of paying attention to and super serving to the point where we also have to sometimes push back

and be like, if we did all of this, we would have no time for making music. So we simply cannot spend our time doing this. Even though on a business level. The bigger you get, the more like kind of onerous that'll become, right? All the pressure to do all those other things. Yeah. And I think in terms of, you know,

the types of deals that they have and the percentages they take and those things, like also, you also can go on your phone and look up any song in like the world and listen to it. Right, it's crazy. Pretty cool. Like our youngest daughter, like she listens to all kinds of stuff

that like when I was that age, it's just like to your point, like, yeah, it's like, oh, my friend's older brother, you know, gave me a Steve Miller album or something like that. Like now, like the entire encyclopedia of music is available and young people are being exposed to so many genres like the entire encyclopedia of music is available. And young people are being exposed to so many genres and they're not limiting themselves to any one of them.

And I think they're seeing the trends of the past few years have also been a lot of older music is having more streams than new music. Like the pie chart of new releases compared to sort of legacy catalogs. The legacy catalogs are growing. And it's just, it is what it is. It's super interesting.

It's cool, I think, you know. What is your advice to young creative musicians who are at the start of their, you know, journey with this? Like what mistakes did you make or what should people look out for? What should they worry about and not worry about? I think, I mean, I've said this before, but make music you love.

I think too many people make music that's like a hot genre right now. And it sounds like what the successful people are doing. And if I had listened to a, I don't know, Calvin Harris song and tried to make it something that sounded just like that, it would be worse. He's the best at that. So why would you want to compete with that, you know? So for us to come out and make something that sounded like nothing else, it was sort of just what we made. It just sort of happened

to be what we make. But I think that was one of the reasons it cut through and was able to penetrate the world because it wasn't being like, oh, is this better than this giant Calvin Harris hit? Or, you know, it wasn't being compared to those things. And if you're not being compared to those things, it can just be good on its own. So if you make something you love

that's unique and different, that would be, I think that's the best way to do it. Cause there's so much stuff and people are so good. Like people are so good at making music. So much better than we are. Like there's so many talented people, but a lot of people are trying to make things that sound the same.

Right. But then you're sort of involving yourself in like a competition, right? Like a competitive mindset. And like you're an athlete, I'm sure you're very competitive and you wanna win. I'm a really competitive person. You're right.

So, but you have to let go a little bit of that, right? And just be like, I'm not competing against Calvin Harris or anyone else. I'm basically competing with myself to bring voice to whatever is unique about me. Also the dance music world specifically is really inclusive. Like everyone's kind of friends with everyone.

Like, yes, I'm sure everyone inside has a little bit of, you know, I wanna be the biggest or best or competitiveness. But like, people are really like, oh, they're popping off, let's collaborate. People are pretty supportive of each other that I found surprising coming out of sports and coming out of schools, honestly, that is really cool. The other thing I realized coming from basketball,

you go out to play a game and there's a whole nother team trying to make you lose. And often there's half the fans trying to make you lose. You go out and play a concert, everyone wants you to win. There's like no other team trying to make you lose. Things can go wrong, but it's pretty nice. And you can win every night. You can win every night.

And it's always a home team advantage, basically, no matter where you are. It's always a home team advantage, basically, no matter where you are. It's always a home game. Unless you're like opening for, what if we open for some really fun people? Yeah, that's a different thing, right? Oh my God, do you remember that one in New Orleans? Who were we right before?

Marilyn Manson? Yes. Oh my God. You opened for Marilyn Manson. Yeah, basically. It was a fast, voodoo fast. We were right before them. It was a long time ago, early on.

And there was like four layers of Marilyn Manson fans in the front waiting for him to play after us. Uh-huh. Unimpressed. They were looking at us. It was so just, yeah, unimpressed is the right word. We've definitely had moments like that. It's not really like a home game then, but.

That's true. It's not always the perfect, so you can get put in some bad situations, but you know what I mean, you know? And, and- Yeah, if you're the opening act, it's an away game. Yeah.

It is an away game. Depends on who you're opening for too. It's true. But the other- Sorry. Go ahead. Just the other thing that I like to make the comparison to is in basketball or any sport. If you're an amazing basketball player, it doesn't matter if you're an asshole.

It doesn't matter if you people like being around you. It doesn't matter if you're a good teammate. Like if you're the best player, you're going to play. You're going to be on the court. And in this, I noticed it helps a lot to be a good person. It helps a lot to be someone people wanna be around. Like all those intangibles, I think can get you really far in this compared to in athletics

because it's just about production. And it's not exactly like that with music. So I've really, I learned that early and I thought that was pretty exciting because I can use other skills that I've, you know, developed my whole life to help us in this that are unrelated to music. Yeah.

What do you think, Sophie, in terms of like advice you would give to your younger self or a younger artist, whether it's a musician or some other kind of like creative pursuit that you've learned. Yeah, I mean, I would definitely encourage collaboration. In this case, I would encourage my younger self to say yes to collaborating with Tucker. We got there.

We got there eventually. And I think we've seen a lot of young artists or just sort of people that are starting out as artists, when they do embrace collaboration and working with other people and sort of sharing ideas and getting inspired by other people, that it's really worked for them. And we have also seen artists that sort of gatekeep

and get really fearful of their ideas being taken, or when they're not open to collaboration and they're not going into it with an open heart. And that has hurt a lot of people and a lot of friends, actually, that we've seen along the way. And I think, like Tucker said, these intangibles, there's a lot of people that we got to work with early on. For the first couple of years, we were not making money.

And they took a chance on us because we had good relationships and they believed in us as human beings. And I'm sure those people would not have stuck it out for those first couple of years had we been assholes. So just relationships are huge in our industry and- People wanna work with people that they like and who are respectful. It's really cool. You'll hear about the people who are nice.

And it's simple, it's like, we're all playing the same venues, we're all playing the same festivals, all the same crew members are working all the same festivals and venues. If you're a dick, they're gonna tell everyone. That's gonna get around quick. Yeah, everybody's gonna know.

And I think it also has to do with who you work with. We've talked about Neil and Justina, this is like our sort of core four that we've been working with since the very beginning. And the number of times that we've heard from other people in the industry who come to us and they say, we worked with your management team and we work with so many different people,

but your team was so fair, so kind, so good at listening, and all these things. We really just wanted to keep working with you. And that, I think, you can't really quantify how far that takes you, but it's been something that has helped us for sure enormously, and also just makes our life a joy because we have good business relationships

and also just good relationships in general. It's fun. You're like playing the long game too. The one thing about you guys that really stands out is just that it's just positive vibes all day long. Like there's no negativity to your point about like competition or like, you know, kind of thinking about what other people are doing.

Like it's just, it's all good, you know, it's all like positive uplifting energy. And I'm sure that's the, you know, that's the experience that being in your audience, you know, is like, right? But it exudes, it's like a very authentic kind of like aura around you. I feel like I have to call myself out a little bit here

because Sophie's definitely thinking it and I know what she's thinking. What was I thinking? Well, that I- I was nodding my head just being like, yeah, it's true. Because- We're so positive.

No, no, no, we are, we are positive. We're definitely positive. What were you thinking? One of the ways that I motivate is being very aware of how everyone else is doing and using my competitiveness to drive me. So I can't say that I don't look at other people who are like selling more tickets than us or have a better song or a song is doing better or whatever it is.

And it doesn't, there was a bit of a time when I remember I would like forward stuff to Sophie and be like, damn, look at that, look at them, look at their show, look at the venue they played, you know. And that's different from like talking shit about people. Yeah. Oh no, it's positive. I mean, I'm-

I mean, it's one thing to like look at that and be inspired and have it motivate you. So yeah, I guess the point was she took it as negative because she was like, that's not what motivates me. Comparing and seeing that like maybe our venue is smaller than theirs. That's just, I'm gonna take that sort of negatively and I'm gonna internalize that negatively

and it's not gonna make me feel good. And for me, I'm like, let's go. I wanna go get it. Yeah, well, I think in that way- I get it. In that way, it's, yeah, I don't know if I would use the word negative and positive to describe that, but definitely the thing

that most motivates me is, you know, being really grateful for what we do have and focusing more on that. And then kind of- You don't like the comparisons. I don't like too much of it. I think without gratitude, it hurts me. And so I just felt like there was a time-

She has the evolved perspective. She's more evolved than I am. And so I just felt like there was a time. She has the evolved perspective. She's more evolved than I am. No, I'm just, I'm- I'm a little more of a killer. Maybe, but I think we're also- I'm just kidding. In our own ways. I don't know, I think, I do think that when you focus

on the things that you're really grateful for, they tend to- Expand. Expand and multiply. I'm not saying let's not focus on what we're grateful for. Yeah, that's all we were saying. I'm just saying let's not focus on what we're grateful for. Yeah, that's all we're saying. I'm just also saying like, let's get after it.

Let's get after it a little bit. So I like both perspectives. But again, I think the motivational piece of it is like, I actually think that if what we want is bigger venues and all these things that actually focusing on what's really working for us is actually going to get us there. So it was more like a pivot of perspective of how do we get there.

And for me, focusing on the positive things, we're definitely going to be more fruitful in that way towards that same goal. But I just didn't take them negatively. They're the same things. I just didn't take them negatively. Yeah. And to some extent, it's kind of semantics, whether it's like positive or negative, but I do think that we have a culture of positivity, of lifting people up.

And this is kind of what I was saying where I feel like this last tour was a moment for us where we realized that all of the people who come to our shows feel that same way. That that message is clear, that people are showing up being like, I'm going to come to this show and I'm going to dress up with the craziest outfit I have in my closet and I'm going to scream and dance and let loose and let go of all the things that are not serving me anymore and make friends. And the fact that we've created an environment that people come to for that is just so cool and something I'm so proud of. I think that culture does permeate like our entire business, our friendship and that isn't to say that there aren't hard things, challenges, negative moments that I think we have to give some space for.

It's not like we're, you know, what's the word? Sort of like positivity police. Like we're not like, you must be positive at all moments. You know, I think there's a lot of- Not at all. I mean, last week we had a week of bad news, honestly. Like we had a bunch of shows, but there was an election. And the day before we had played at the other sides, the side who lost rally.

And so then, so that was sort of like a weird, and then the Grammy nominations came out and we weren't on them. And as a competitive person, I was pissed. Yeah, I was not, I wasn't happy for a lot of reasons. Women, and then also myself for the Grammy one. And we got a bunch of messages, sort of encouraging messages, mostly from our family, I think,

just saying like, your show tonight is actually more important now than it was yesterday because like you need to give that, these spaces of joy and inclusion and loving yourself and fun and escape from a really heavy world right now is more important than ever. And so that did feel, that felt good, even in a shitty time. No, it's special what you guys are doing.

Sophie, do you feel like you're changing the world? Yeah, I do. But I also don't feel like it's my responsibility to anymore. That's even better, actually. I feel like I'm really proud of what we do on a daily basis. But it's also like I don't have this like savior complex thing anymore.

It's not my job. It's my job to do the best that I can every day. But I'm not supposed to like save the world single-handedly. You know, that's unrealistic. I don't know, it's something for president. No, God, no, I would be the worst. Don't. Oh my God.

Where would that leave you? How would you fit in the administration? I'll be in the administration somewhere. Maybe her stylist. All right. All right. That's amazing. You guys are awesome.

I'm just delighted by both of you. I think you're just the very beginning of a very long journey that is going to be bright indeed. So I appreciate you guys coming in today. It's super fun. Thank you. I hope you guys get some today, it's super fun. Thank you. I hope you guys get some rest at some point. I feel rested.

Not today. I feel amazing. Call her at 4 a.m. tonight. Or after the flight in the morning. I still have to come to a show also. I know that I was trying to remember what show did Julie come to? The Santa Barbara one would have been so good. I don't know. When she came on stage.

I don't know where it was. I don't know what state she was in. Hey,'t know where it was. I wouldn't say she was. Hey, in Miami, that's where I met her. Was it Miami? Miami. I met her in Miami, for sure. Oh my God, that was such a long, that was pre-pandemic. Yeah, a long, long time ago.

Yeah, wow. I remember. That's amazing. Yeah, that was fun. I can't stay up that late though, anyway. Well, our live shows are like nine. It's not all. We have like daytime. We have day shows too.

Oh, you did, yeah. I guess we do. I'll sign up for the day show. It's not all. We have like- We have day shows too. Day time. Oh, you did. I'll sign up for the day show. It's fun. All right, cool. A real honor though. Thank you for having me. Yeah, this is honestly my pleasure.

No, you guys are awesome. I'm a huge fan of everything you're doing and winning your sales. Thanks for coming in. Thank you so much. Cheers. Peace. Thanks. Thank you. That's it for today.

Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guests, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com where you can find the full list of the guests and the resources that are available.

And if you want to learn more about the guests guests, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com where you can find the entire podcast archive, my books, Finding Ultra, Boising Change, and the Plant Power Way, as well as the Plant Power Meal Planner at meals.richroll.com. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube, and leave a review and or comment. This show just wouldn't be possible without the help of our amazing sponsors who keep this podcast running wild and free. To check out all their

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