The Rich Roll Podcast - Suzy Amis Cameron’s Mission To Save The Planet — Rethinking Education, Agriculture, Health & The American Diet

Episode Date: December 21, 2015

Perhaps you know today’s guest from one of her 25+ roles on the silver screen appearing in movies like Titanic, Fandango and The Usual Suspects. Or maybe you know her as the better half of the world’s most successful film director, James Cameron – the incomparable mind behind the biggest cinematic blockbusters of all time: Aliens, Terminator, Titanic and of course Avatar – the highest grossing movie ever. But Suzy Amis Cameron is so much more than all that. In addition to raising five kids, she is a pioneering environmental activist. A passionate philanthropist. An education innovator. And the maverick co-founder (along with her sister Rebecca) of MUSE. Grabbing international headlines last year when it became the first U.S. school to implement a 100% plant-based school lunch program, MUSE is an incredibly progressive, paradigm breaking K-12 institution devoted to sustainability; creative & critical thinking; and preparing young people to live consciously within themselves, one another and the planet. A pretty great vision if you ask me. A living example of selfless advocacy in action, for the last 25 years Suzy has tirelessly dedicated herself to an array of environmental causes, working non-stop to reform education; combat global climate change; raze our execrable system of animal agriculture; overhaul our fatal addiction to the standard American diet; defeat chronic lifestyle disease; and engineer a better, healthier food system for all. Towards this end, in 2014 James and Suzy founded Food Choice Taskforce, a non-profit organization targeting the impact of animal agriculture on climate change to mobilize a global shift in food choice. She is also a founder of Food Forest Organics, a New Zealand-based plant-based cafe and marketplace, and Red Carpet Green Dress, showcasing socially and environmentally responsible fashions. This is a great conversation about her extraordinary life. It’s a conversation about the intricate, intertwined relationship between our actions and the biosphere. It’s about championing sustainable values – from what we do, to what we wear, to how we teach our children, to the food we eat. It's about how our consumer choices impact our personal health and the current and future health of this spinning blue globe we call home. And of course, it’s about what it’s like to be married to Hollywood’s most successful director. Specific topics covered include: * the impact of ‘Forks Over Knives’ * environmental concerns and advocacy * animal agriculture as the center of all health issues * health sector and environmentalist summit * Chatham House research on agriculture & environment * communicating with the average person the powers of a plant-based diet * bringing about hope by changing what’s on our plate * the importance of support systems * MUSE School & MUSE Global * educating the community on the plant-based lifestyle * sustainability pledge & One Meal A Day * our youth, the global champions of tomorrow * typical day in the life of the Cameron’s * sustainable fashion * future projects to catalyze change Suzy stirs me to do and be better. Listen in, and be equally inspired. Peace + Plants, Rich

You can look at, I would say, 95% of all of the environmental issues out there, and you can trace them back to animal agriculture and the effect that animal agriculture creates, the havoc that it wreaks on these different environmental issues. That's Susie Amos Cameron, and this is The Rich Roll Podcast. The Rich Roll Podcast. Hey, people. How you doing? What's going on? What's happening? Happy holidays. Do you have the holiday spirit I've got the holiday spirit. My name is Rich Roll. I am your host. Welcome to the show. This is the show where I do my best to have meaningful conversations with compelling individuals, people who are challenging social norms and breaking cultural paradigms to create a better

world for all of us. So anyway, thank you so much for tuning in today, for subscribing to the show on iTunes, for taking a moment to leave us a review on iTunes. That helps us out a lot. If you haven't done that already, please take a moment to do that. It really is a great benefit to us. I appreciate it.

And of course, for always using the Amazon banner ad for all your holiday shopping needs. Doesn't cost you a cent extra. Just click through the banner ad on my site, richroll.com, and then buy whatever you're going to buy. And Amazon kicks us some loose commission change from their side of the equation. And that really helps us keep the bandwidth flowing and continue to do what we do here. So perhaps you know today's guest from one of her 25 roles on the big screen appearing in movies like Titanic, Fandango, or The Usual Suspects. Or maybe you know her as the better half of the world's most successful

film director, James Cameron, the incomparable, brilliant mind behind the biggest cinematic blockbusters of all time. Movies we've all seen like Aliens, Terminator, Titanic, and of course, Avatar, the highest grossing movie of all time. as an innovative educator and founder, along with her sister Rebecca, of Muse, which is an incredibly forward-thinking K-12 school focused on empowerment, individualized curriculum, creative and critical thinking, environmentalism, and global sustainability. In other words, it's this amazing institution devoted to preparing young people to live consciously within themselves, one another, and the planet, which is a pretty great vision, if you ask me. And I got a whole bunch more I want to say about Susie in a minute before we get into the interview, but first. I first met Susie a couple years ago.

We became pals. I actually didn't meet James until this past spring. That was an extraordinary experience. He had such nice things to say about my book, Finding Ultra, which was just a mind-blower. I couldn't even believe that he actually read it, let alone had nice things to say to me about it. That's just crazy. But in any event, Susie invited me to speak at MUSE last year. That's when I got sort of indoctrinated and introduced to what she's

doing at this incredible institution. And now our two daughters, who have been historically homeschooled, unschooled, are now students at MUSE. And you might be familiar with this institution because it grabbed international headlines this past year when it became the first school in the U.S. to implement a 100% plant-based school lunch program, which is extraordinary. Muse has been quite an amazing experience for our girls as well as for Julie and I. outdated educational paradigms and modalities, and stands as a groundbreaking model for a new way to foster what's best about the next generation, in my opinion. And I'm super impressed with Susie. Of course, she lives in quite rare air, and most people of her stature, of her circumstances, would most likely choose a life of least resistance, of leisure, of luxury. But that is not Susie. For the last 25 years, she has dedicated herself to environmental causes. Every

breath she takes is in service to a better world, from leveraging her resources and influence to combat global climate change and our healthcare crisis, most recently through Food Choice Task Force, which is an organization that she and James founded in 2014 that's focused on showing the impact of animal agriculture on climate change and the environment, to identifying and implementing better ways to educate the next generation. She is relentless. She is tireless. She is a true living example of advocacy and action. And

this is a great conversation about her extraordinary life. It's a conversation about the intricate, intertwined relationship between our actions and the biosphere. It's about championing sustainable values from what we do to what we wear to how we teach our children to the food we eat. And of course, it's about what it do to what we wear to how we teach our children to the food we eat. And of course, it's about what it's like to be married to Hollywood's most successful director. It was an absolute pleasure to sit down with Susie in her beautiful home in Malibu for this conversation. I hope you enjoy it. And I hope it helps you think more deeply and critically about our place in the world, about how you choose to spend your

free time, and how our choices impact our personal health and the current and future health of the planet. So without further ado, pull up a seat in Susie's office and enjoy. I'm surprised that you guys are not in Paris right now for COP21. Were you originally supposed to go? We were supposed to go, actually. And the two events that I was going to be speaking at were both canceled. Oh, wow. Yeah, and the one that Jim was going to be doing was canceled as well. And then there was one that we were supposed to show up to together.

And they basically just, you know, made it smaller and smaller and smaller and just kind of kept key people there. So it didn't make sense anymore? No. And we were planning on taking the children and making a whole trip out of it. And it just didn't feel like we could walk into Paris and be celebratory and have a fun time. And it's sad. Yeah, it's really sad. It's tragic.

You know, we were just chatting before the podcast about how I'd been in Beirut, you know, and left two days before the bombings there and then Paris happens. And, you know, it's tragic beyond measure and beyond explanation and words. And then to have the juxtaposition of that butting up against COP 21 and the sort of promise that that holds creates a weird kind of, of i would think sort of emotional dynamic for that event to take place where they're grappling with such important issues but there's also a city that's grieving and the world that's grieving over that yeah it's i mean it i think the um oh there's so many levels to it and personally i lived there for three and a half years, so I'm devastated for the people of France and Paris and all of that. And we were really excited about going because we've created an organization called Food Choice Task Force and had all kinds of different presentations and speeches and connections that we wanted to make

because the connection between animal agriculture and climate change really isn't a big topic at COP right now. And we wanted to shine light on that, the Chatham House study. Yeah, there's a brand new study that just came out, right? That's right. So explain what that is. That's right. So the first one came out about a year and a half ago, and that one was really the first piece of looking at the numbers

of what are those greenhouse gases that are going out into the world that are created by animal agriculture. And this is something that people just aren't looking at. So if you think about what's causing climate change, the greenhouse gases that are going out there, the number one is fossil fuels, the energy sector. We know that. People know that. Number three is transportation. Transportation's huge. People think about it all the time. They go

out, they get a Prius, they get an electric car, they try to carpool and do all of those, ride a bicycle, all of those things. Number two is animal agriculture. And people just don't think about it. They don't connect the dots. And this was, you know, Jim had actually known about it for a very long time, but just thought that, you know, you needed to eat meat and have dairy for strong muscles and strong bones. And after we watched Forks Over Knives three and a half years ago, which was a huge aha moment, he kind of realized, you know, not only is meat and dairy not necessary to be healthy, but it's also not good for you.

So we went cold turkey. Right. Well, let's like park it there for a minute. We can get back to the Chatham study and just get into the story of like, no, it's okay. I mean, look, we could talk all day. I know. I know. Exactly.

We'll try to structure it a little bit. But yeah, so Jim, I'm going to call him Jim. Is that okay? Yes, I call him Jim. We're pals, right? Yeah. You can call him Jim. I'm not sure I can, but I'm going to anyway.

Well-known as a long-term environmentalist, going back many, many, many years. But the whole introduction of plant-based diet is, you know, relatively recent on the landscape, but it's really changed and shaped kind of your, the focal point of your advocacy in many, many ways. So, so let's go back to that sort of moment of discovering Forks Over Knives and the impact that that's had on you and your marriage and your family and the work that you guys do? Yeah, so three and a half years ago, it was actually May 6th. You remember the day.

I remember the day. It was so profound. My friend Elliot Washer of Big Picture Schools kept telling me about For forks over knives and how great it was and i really needed to watch it it sat here in this office for about nine months and i finally grabbed it on may 6th and i took it down to the gym and i plunked it in the it's like one of those movies you're like yeah i know i should watch it but like well i didn't not today i didn't really know what it was going to tell me because he's he the typical go plant-based and get born again kind of thing, which so many people get that way when they realize what a great lifestyle it gives you.

But he told me about it, and when people tell me about a good book or a good DVD, I'm an info junkie, and I like to read it or see it. So anyway, I watched it. And when people tell me about a good book or a good DVD, I'm an info junkie and I like to read it or see it. So anyway, I watched it and I brought the DVD up to the house and I found Jim and I said, I need an hour and a half of your time tomorrow. And he said, oh, cool. Where are we going? And I said, we're not going to go anywhere. I said, we're going to watch a movie. He said, oh, great. where are we going? And I said, we're not going to go anywhere. I said, we're going to watch a movie. He said, oh, great, I love movies. What are we going to watch?

I said, I'm not going to tell you what it is. I just want to sit and watch it and then talk about it afterwards. So we brought our 12-year-old girl in with us and our 13-year-old nephew, and we watched it, and I was really, my heart was pounding because I wanted, I really wanted it to affect him the same way that it affected me. We both have cancer and heart disease in our families. And, you know, we were getting to a point where doctors were starting to talk to us about our hearts and, you know, being careful and all of those things. Meanwhile, we thought we were eating

really healthy everything was organic grass-fed um free range blah blah blah right and this is 2007 um when would it 12 oh 2012 okay yeah three three three and a half years ago. Anyway, we watched it. He had just come home from a trip. I think he had been in China. And I couldn't tell if he was falling asleep during the movie. So I sat really close to him and kept moving around so he wouldn't fall asleep. But he wasn't falling asleep. And he was paying full attention to it because by the time we got from our TV room into the kitchen,

he said, we shouldn't have any more animal products in this house ever. And within 24 hours, the whole pantry refrigerator was cleaned out, and we also had goats up at our ranch. So we got fresh goat yogurt, goat cheese, and goat milk once a week. And within 48 hours, we closed down production of that. We kept the goats for a while as fire abatement. Plus, they're cute, and they're kind of pets. And we went cold turkey.

That's how we roll but I know that's an amazing like sort of you know incredibly impactful there's an immediacy to that that I think is unusual for a lot of people I mean certainly obviously it profoundly impacted him and you guys acted like in the moment that's crazy I mean what did your kids were your kids, what are you doing? Yeah, pretty much. Are we getting any input on this? Yeah, no. That must have been a rough patch. You know, it was a little bit, but we were able to sort of generate delicious, yummy food right away.

We discovered veggie grill, you know, so that was kind of an easy, although our kids never ate fast food anyway. But there are, you know, there were a lot of really tasty choices with that. And we just figured out how to make yummy food pretty quickly, because we're, you know, we're food oriented. The, where the goats were kept up at our ranch, we actually completely planted that. So we grow about 90% of our own vegetables. So they really got into gardening and harvesting and cooking themselves, which really helped. And, you know, again, you know, we realize that that's not possible for everyone in the world. And it's not possible to go cold turkey.

It's just some people need to ease into it more. Well, it is possible. It's just some people, it's, you know, I don't, I think it's important to give people permission to find their own way through it. And to say it's cool to be transitioning and to you know experiment and do all that kind of stuff i'm kind of a cold turkey guy myself yeah uh but even for me it took a little bit of adjustment you know it wasn't perfect or completely linear yeah yeah so um so then how long did it take before kind of this messaging found its way into the advocacy work that that you guys do together?

Well, both of us. I mean, I think that that's one of the reasons why we connected so much when we met 20 years ago was how involved we were in the environment and environmental circles. And again, Jim knew so much about the connection between animal agriculture and climate change. But he didn't ever really talk about it because he really believed that you needed animal protein and all of that. And I do mark watching Forks Over Knives as a moment of just the lifting of the veil and realizing how much our society is lied to every day. I grew up in Oklahoma, and we raised cows and pigs and had our own milk and all of those things.

And my mom is still saying, you girls drink your milk. You want to have strong bones. Of course. I mean, we've all been told that our entire lives. Exactly. It's beyond questioning. Yeah.

So it's, you know, it feels yucky to, you know, to have to be lied to and led down a road that's, you know, for somebody else's bottom line, which, and it's really bad for you. So that marked that moment and then once we went plant-based jim really started educating me and giving me books because we went crazy reading everything we could around whether it whether it connected with health or the environment but it just was like this cascade of just a marathon, uber marathon of reading and watching documentaries and getting our hands on everything that we possibly could. So that was kind of the moment.

What were some of the more impactful books and films? Well, we happened upon a short little film that you can get on YouTube called Devour the Earth. I haven't seen that. You can just Google it. It's narrated by Paul McCartney, and it's about 18, 20 minutes long, and everything you need to know about animal agriculture and climate change is in that little short video. And it was actually 1995. Wow, that's crazy.

Yeah. And it actually, because they've updated it now, but in the beginning they kind of apologized for the quality of the film because it was made in 1995. But it's so relevant that's amazing because i think wasn't the the un report that came out that kind of provides the basis for cal conspiracy that was 2008 right i think yeah seven or eight the the long shadow right and now that kind of you know in mainstream culture no one really paid attention it was only probably only people like jim were people that were like reading that kind of stuff. It takes movies like Cowspiracy

to introduce those concepts to the mainstream public. But, you know, 2008, that still was, you know, a couple of years before you guys watched Forks Over Knives. And it's interesting that, you know, James being such the ardent environmentalist and yourself as well, that still you guys were holding onto the health component as the thing

holding you back from kind of taking the complete leap where for a lot of people, you know, I think them seeing Cowspiracy was that was the final thing that they didn't know about. Yeah. Well, the health piece was for Jim. Right. For me, I didn't even know about the environmental impacts at all, which was kind of my second marker in one of those moments that other people do know about this. But what was shocking to me was the environmental circles that I ran in, nobody was talking about it. No one. And when I did bring it up, I was talking about it. No one. And when I did bring it up, I was pretty shut down.

Yeah, that's a very interesting kind of thing to explore a little bit if you're comfortable doing it. Because I would imagine you're rubbing elbows with and probably sitting on boards of the sort of gold standard organizations out there, like, I don't know which one specifically, but the ones we all know about, you know, whether it's Green Peace, you know, all these sort of organizations that kind of had their bell rung in conspiracy, and aren't really talking about these issues. So even though there are there is the UN report, and there's all this evidence out there, What do you think it is that is preventing these organizations from wanting to discuss this issue and flush it out and really kind of advocate? Yeah, it's, you know, it's one of those things where it becomes like an onion and you just keep

pulling back the layers. And I always say you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube. And once you start down this path of finding out this information, and the more information you find out, the more you uncover, the more you find out, the more you uncover, and it's just mind-boggling. But I think when it first happened, I went back to the organizations that I was working with and brought it up to them, and they realized that I've always been very passionate about food. Even Mew's School was founded on all organic snacks and lunches.

It was organic dairy and grass-fed beef, all of those kinds of things. We have now since gone 100% plant-based, as you well know. And we're going to talk about that. Good. But what ended up happening when I went back and I started talking about the fact that we were talking about dead zones in the oceans. We were talking about endangered species. We were talking about deforestation. We were talking about biodiversity loss. We were talking about creating sanctuaries in the oceans. What I realized was that there is a direct link to all of those things. If you put animal agriculture in the middle of that, create a Venn diagram, they all connect to deforestation, to dead zones, to biodiversity loss, the ice caps melting.

So when you get that little ad in the mail to donate to save the polar bears, to save the wolves. Our daughter was really in, that was her passion at school, was all about wolves. And she studied them for four years. When we found out why the wolves are really endangered, it's because they're getting killed by the cattle. Yeah, they're getting cleared out for cattle ranching. That's right, for cattle ranching. So you can look at, I would say, 95% of all of the environmental issues out there. I would say 95% of all of the environmental issues out there, and you can trace them back to animal agriculture and the effect that animal agriculture creates,

the havoc that it wreaks on these different environmental issues. So when I brought it up, I was definitely shut down and actually sort of stepped back from supporting some of these organizations. Were you given an explanation or just the brush off? Well, I wrote a long letter and sent it. And the reply that came back was, you know, we will get back with you with a formal reply, which never came.

The cool thing is, the really cool thing, is that from that situation, Jim and I pulled together all of the usual suspects of the health sector. So we had the Campbells and the Esselstyns and Ornish and McDougall. Google, and then we had environmentalists with us, Oppenlander, Jim Hicks, people from the Nature Conservancy, and the Environmental Defense Fund. And we created a summit because clearly the health sector has it going on. They are pushing the message out there like crazy. There are a handful of people in the environmental world that are pushing it out there.

But to get the two of them in the same place at the same time on the same page, that was our goal. And out of that came the Food Choice Task Force. Out of the Food Choice Task Force came a campaign called My Plate, My Planet, which was created when the U.S. dietary guidelines came out. And that was a really exciting moment because it's unprecedented, and they really linked health and the environment, you know, under the U.S. dietary guidelines. Right. Which kicked up all this controversy. Yeah.

The sort of, you know, the response to that, the sort of meat and dairy industry response to that is sustainability arguments have no place in forming dietary guidelines, right? Exactly, exactly. So then we created this campaign, we pulled out those pieces and called up all of the environmental NGOs. And the ones that we had a lot of issues with, they were the first ones to sign on. Oh, that's great. So they've done an about face. And what's really exciting is that I am now taking over as executive director of Food Choice Task Force.

So I understand Food Choice Task Force is a nonprofit, and is it funded by your main nonprofit? Is it behind kind of getting these Chatham reports researched and published, or what is the relationship to these two Chatham reports to kind of bring it back to how we opened it up? Yes, we do meander, don't we? Yeah, I know. It's okay. I always bring it back around how we opened it up um yes we do meander don't we yeah i know it's okay i always bring it back around get me going yeah it's good um what ended

up actually that was the other thing that came out of the summit that we created was the fact that we didn't have that number of just what were the greenhouse what were the greenhouse gas emissions. Because everything, you know, from the Long Shadow, they published 18%. There were other published papers that came out that it was anything from 13% to 51%. to 51%. And Jim and I knew, we're very well aware of the fact that when people, if they're connected with Hollywood, if you go out and you really want to talk

about something very serious, the good thing is to have science behind you. And so we actually, we approached Jadam house about doing a research project, um, about the connection between animal agriculture and climate change. So that was the first part of the, the Chatham house study. And what is Chatham house? Like what it just explained who they, who they are. They are, I don't know if I can even do them justice. They are.

They are. I don't know if I can even do them justice. If you want the highest peer-reviewed research done, you go to Chatham House. They're the guys. They are the dudes. Yeah, absolutely. If you want your report to just be rock solid and unassailable, they know how to get that done. Exactly, exactly.

And they were really excited. No one had ever approached them about doing a research paper like this ever, and they'd been chomping at the bit to do it. So they did that, and then the second part of it, which was just published, is we did focus groups around the world. So I believe it's five different countries. And they went in with every different demographic that you can imagine, they went in and asked them all, you know, what would make them change their diets? And before they asked them that, they asked them that question cold, and then they gave them the information about the environment. And the majority of them switched around and said, you know, that they would do it for whether it was health, for the environment, for the future of their children.

Pure vanity. Well, that's the funny part. The ultimate motivator right so um we went to china or i shouldn't say we they went to china and they had focus groups in china which is one of the most polluted places on the earth and the women of china hands down said the reason why they would do it was because they wanted beautiful skin and slender bodies, slender, healthy bodies, I should say. Um, and you know, that, that is the beauty of a plant-based diet. It doesn't matter if you're doing it for the cute, fluffy animals or for the environment or for your health or, you beautiful skin and a nice, slim, healthy body.

It checks every box. It does. It's like win, win, win, win, win. And you end up even saving money because it's not as expensive, first of all, to even purchase everything and prepare it, but you end up not going to the doctor as much. I mean, Jim and I have been completely healthy for three and a half years.

No fevers, no flus, no, you know. I mean, he used to get two to three colds a year and the flu, you know. Nothing, nada. Right. And he lost a bunch of weight too. He lost probably 35 pounds. Yeah.

And he just turned 61 and he runs five miles on the beach barefoot. He's lifting more weight than he's ever lifted in his whole life. He works out seven days a week. He does, you know, he works out seven days a week. He does yoga three times a week. And then he works out with weights four times a week. I mean, he's unstoppable. I've, I literally have watched him get younger. That's crazy. Especially, you know, with the sort of little empire that you guys are running, like I can't imagine the sort of daily pressures and all the various responsibilities that you guys have to live up to every single day here.

It's quite the operation. So you need that, that childlike level of enthusiasm and energy, right? Yeah. Coming at a high level. Yeah. It's intense.

I mean, it's, it's, um, it's something, I'm glad you said that because it's something that um that I really like to to put out there because we do have we we do have an amazing unusual life and you know Jim grew up in a tiny little town in Canada. I grew up in Oklahoma.

And what we do realize is that there are things that we have available to us that a lot of people don't. And we have a platform that we're able to use in a way. I mean, we could be taking selfies and eating chocolate bonbons and reading moving magazines, I suppose, if we really wanted to. But we take our platform and our place in society very, very seriously. And I think that's one of the reasons why we did have that big conversation about starting Food Choice Task Force, because we really want to do something to make the world a better place for our children to grow up in. Not only our children, but the children of the world. Right. Well, yeah, you live in rare air, and you have this very sort of privileged existence.

And perhaps that could mean for some people, well, I can't relate to them or whatever. But knowing you guys a little bit like you're incredibly grounded people, and you could be doing anything like you have choices that most people don't have. But the fact that you have decided to really invest in this commitment and make it your life's mission, you know, beyond the creative projects and even perhaps beyond the school to get this message out there. I mean, I think speaks volumes to your character because you could be sitting on a beach somewhere doing nothing, I suppose, right? I mean, and yet you're, you're, you know, working, you know, tirelessly to advance this, you know, this idea of trying to save our planet's precious resources and preserve our bounty for future generations. And I can't think of anything more aspirational or

laudatory than that. So, you know, nothing but mad respect for that. And maybe that's a good place to kind of, well, there's two things I want, I want to talk about Muse School, but before we get into that, maybe this is a good place to kind of, well, there's two things I want to talk about Muse School, but before we get into that, maybe this is a good place to kind of talk about how, you know, what your thoughts are in terms of taking, you know, this knowledge base that you have and this understanding that you have about the environment and the perilous situation that we're in and the kind of benefits of a plant-based diet and how we communicate, how we message this to mainstream audiences, to, you know, people that aren't so fortunate or people that are just

trying to pay the bills and get through the day. Like how, how can we sort of penetrate the consciousness of the average American to get these ideas across and create solutions that make it easier and more facile and more attractive for them to kind of take this leap that has had such a tremendous impact on your life? That's the big question, right? Yeah, it is. Because ultimately, this can't be, you know, this is not an elitist ideal, but it can be interpreted as such. And sometimes when you're having high-level conversations with people that aren't necessarily average Americans, it can be perceived as, well, this is just something that, you know, people that I can't relate to talk about. But it has to be something for everybody, right? So how do we accomplish this?

I'm not saying that you have to have the solution, but this is the thing. This is what we need to be focusing on, is it not? Yeah, absolutely. And it is what I spend every moment of my day from the moment I wake up in the morning. And I wake up a lot with a pit in my stomach of what else? What else can I do?

And, you know, what is that magic bullet that will wake people up in a way to make them understand, you know, what the connection is and they'll feel so much better and it'll help the environment and all of the different things that a plant-based diet does for you. I will start with a story. Okay. About two weeks after Jim and I went plant-based, we were up at our ranch. And he's kind of a doomsday kind of guy.

I mean, if you watch his movies, he really is always worried endlessly about the future of our world. And spoke about it regularly and yet always trying to look for solutions. I mean, looking at renewable energies, at anything that would make a difference in our environment, looking for different kinds of fuels, experimenting and creating things, as we know he knows how to do.

And we were walking on the beach, and he said to me, for the first time in my life, I have hope. And if there's a way for us to get the message out to the world about how important it is to change what's on our plate, we have hope. Because we can make all of the changes in the energy sector. We can make all of the changes in the energy sector. We can make all of the changes in the transportation sector.

It'll take a long time, much longer than we have. But if we don't change what's on our plate, along with those other two things, we will never meet our two-degree target. He said, so I actually have... The two-degree, meaning temperature change. Correct. Yeah. So he said, for the first time, I really, I really have hope because changing what's on your plate isn't going to take 20 years. You don't have to buy a Prius.

You don't have to change your light bulbs.. You just change what's on your plate. And every single person has the power to do that themselves. And it's always a question after we give a speech. What can I do? What can one little person do to make a difference? Well, you can look at what's on your plate. So it takes us back to the Chatham House study. And that's why we did the second half of it with the focus groups to find out what would

make them change. And we're currently working on, you know, marketing and, and marketing research and looking at, you know at what are the different campaigns that will speak to the different demographics. Whether it's, you know, I personally will go very strongly after moms and women because they make 85% of the decisions, the purchasing decisions in the household. Right, and if you educate a young woman, then ultimately you're educating an entire family down the line. Correct. And the ripple effect of that is tremendous.

Yeah, it is. It is. So, yeah, your question, you know, how do you go into one of these tiny little towns and make a difference when they don't have the education, they're steeped in their traditions, and those kinds of things. The irony is that, you know, even back to Egyptian times, the poor people were eating plants. It was only the affluent that were eating animal products. And because of the way the world has gone, everyone wants that status of being able to eat meat. I had a good friend, a Chinese

woman, a very good friend, and she grew up very, very poor. And then she, she ended up to be, you know, a very, very affluent woman. And she said, all I could think about when I was young, and eating plants is that I was going to grow up and I was going to be rich. And I was going to eat meat, right? And now I'm vegan. That's so funny. Yeah. I mean, it's a real problem in the developing world where you're seeing like the ascension of a middle class in China, and people finally having, you know, enough money to rub together to buy the foods that they didn't grow up with. Right. And that's, you know, with the way that we export our diet and lifestyle overseas is creating all kinds of calamities for the first time in human history. And I've seen it in the Middle East. And I know it's, you know, a gigantic problem in China. So when we talk about shifting these habits, you know, we tend to focus on the United States and our healthcare crisis here and school lunch and all these sorts of

things. But, you know, it really is a global problem. But back to your point of, you know, communicating to the average person, it's an interesting dynamic, because on the one hand, it's incredibly empowering. And we're, we're a populace of people that feel very disempowered, we feel like our vote doesn't count, what can we do, there's nothing we can do to make a difference. And it's easy to be lazy. And yet, here's this one thing that you can do that has this massive impact, this incredible ripple effect. And that creates self-esteem. It makes you feel good about yourself. It's like a beautiful thing, but it really is a grassroots campaign to, of one person at a time or one town hall to like get that across over time. Right. You know? Yeah. So we're really

looking at every different angle we can possibly hit, whether it's, you know, from the ground up or from the top down, because we've got, that are very much on board with us as well, being able to help move the needle that way. But it's true. You can move the needle all by yourself. Right. You know, the funny thing is that some people do think that it's elitist to be plant-based and all of that, which is, it is so ironic. However, I think the more role models that are out there and talking about being plant-based, are out there and talking about being plant-based, I mean, in a funny way, it's probably going to switch completely, 180, where people are going to start to look at some people of affluence

that have gone plant-based or celebrities or whoever they are because there are lots and lots of celebrities and more every single day that are going plant-based because they realize it gives them an edge. They look better. They've got more energy. And athletes, obviously. I mean, you speak to that all the time. I mean, athletes absolutely, plant-based athletes have an edge over animal-based athletes. I guess that's how you'd say it.

Animal-based athletes. Yeah. We're still getting over that hump. There's a lot of work to do to really get people to embrace that idea. Right. I'm working on it. to embrace that idea that I'm working on it. But, you know, I mean, I do have entry with the educational sectors,

and I think that that's a big thing, and with women. You know, it is the women that are in the carpool circles. They're in the knitting circles. They're in the yoga circles. They're in the knitting circles they're in the yoga circles they're in the grocery circles and you know being able to to really tap into to that is is huge and you know you spoke earlier about the younger crowd it's amazing how many certainly with the the study that we did, how many of the younger crowd, sort of the 25s and unders, they really are concerned about the environment. And they're super open to plant-based diet.

They don't have that built-in resistance because they didn't grow up with the same sort of messaging that we did. And I find them to be incredibly receptive. And I think the environmental message really speaks to younger people. It's difficult to penetrate them with the health message because when you're young, like, who cares? But they really do care about the environment,

and that messaging really seems to resonate profoundly with them. And that makes me optimistic and hopeful in the face of crazy statistics that would make you pessimistic when I meet young people and I see how excited they are about it. And then they go and they message their friends and all of that. Like, it's a cool thing that's happening. So it's this kind of bifurcated approach where you're doing the one-on-one, individual to individual. there's giant policy changes that have to shift with how we, for example, like farm subsidies and how school lunch works and all the gigantic conglomerate business interests that come into play that kind of create loggerheads with implementing change at a high level going down.

Right. Well, I think we're ripe for this conversation. You know, on the on the tails of the US dietary guidelines, and the World Health Organization announcement that came out, I mean, I know that there's been certainly the backlash with that. But you, you can completely look at it in a way of the way the smoking campaigns went. The smoking campaigns and the anti-smoking campaigns. And all you have to do is take smoking out and put meat in, meat and dairy in. Yeah, they're using the exact same playbook. Exactly.

So hopefully, you know, because of, you know, the astuteness of the American public, having sort of weathered that in the past, we'll be able to accelerate how long it took for, because I think the whole smoking thing went on for like, it took like 50 years or something like accelerated now and people get found out easier. You know, it's if you're looking at the, you know, the difference between the way the it's basically just the way information is shared around the world now. Well, the immediacy of it is unprecedented. I mean, I think the fact that we all have something that we hold in our hands that can answer any question that we have is, you know, is, I don't know that we fully appreciate how insanely amazing that is. Right. And so yeah, I think that accelerates the whole process. And I think just the fact that a young person can look something up and immediately get the answer to anything that spikes their curiosity is really beyond comprehension.

I mean, can you imagine being 12 and having something like that? I mean, I can't even fathom it. But at the same time, I think what gets built into that is a growing demand for transparency on all fronts, from the businesses that we patronize to the governments and the elected officials, everything. alarm bells go off. Whereas when we were younger, it's like, well, there's three channels and you get your news at night. And there was no really ability to question anything in a way that would be facile without going into the basement of some library and getting microfiche out

and writing a term paper that no one's gonna read. You know what I mean? Now, like the way that information can get spread, there's a lack of tolerance for kind of hiding the ball i think yeah and i think that that bodes well for things getting sorted out in a positive way yeah i think so because it's it's it ultimately is about the fact yeah when we were growing up it was just like like, okay, that's just how it is. And this is what we're supposed to eat because that's what they tell us on the commercials. And, you know, that's what's going to make us healthy and strong.

And I think kids do question much, much more. And, you know, in terms of, I think ultimately what's going to happen too is it's it's about supply and demand um you know jim and i also had another conversation last night about pets and pet food and now we're like curious like so what is the footprint of feeding your right animals you know it's like a whole nother, that's a whole nother conversation. But being able to, you know, cut down on supply and demand. I mean, I know that just since we've gone plant-based and how many, how many DVDs and books that we've given out to people. And then we hear back from so many of them, and they're like, I bought 20 of those DVDs, and I gave them out to my friends. So it absolutely is a ripple effect.

I think one of the main things that's really important when you are doing that is it's really difficult to do all by yourself. So if you are in a place where you're all by yourself and everybody's looking at you like you've got 20 eyeballs, then, you know, find a community online, you know, so you can have a support system, trade recipes, you know, talk about all the exciting things that happen to you when you go plant-based. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you can find that community. I mean, ideally you want community

around you in person, but the fact that the internet avails you of any kind of community that you're searching for, and certainly robust communities in this plant-based movement everywhere you look. So it's cool. Yeah. Let's talk about Muse. muse okay when did you come up with this crazy idea that you wanted to start a school oh gosh um and how insane was that idea well i didn't realize what i was getting myself into um november of 05 uh-huh j Jim and I were having a conversation. We had, Jim and I have five kids and the two older ones had already gone through

different schooling systems and it was challenging to watch them go through it as a mother and watching their spirits

get squashed and watching the educational institutions try to put them in a box. And so then Jim and I had three children of our own. And when it came time for the oldest of those three to start kindergarten, I started looking around at different schools. And I really wanted to find a school that would, number one, ultimately feed them well, allow them to work in their own way, at their own pace, teach them about the environment,

and basically celebrate them who they were as individuals. And what'd you come up with? Nada. I was like, good luck with that. Yeah, I couldn't find anything. And so I talked to Jim about homeschooling. And we were having this big conversation. It was interesting because he was talking about whether or not he should continue with deep sea exploration

or he should go off and make this big studio film called Avatar. And I was over here struggling with, you know, do we homeschool? And that felt isolating for especially the daughter that we were talking about homeschooling. And, you know, or do we get maybe a group of the preschool kids together and start a little kindergarten? We could do it here in this building that we're in right now. We talked about this being our first school building. We talked about this being our first school building.

And anyway, we kind of both went off in our different directions. He ended up obviously making Avatar, and I ended up calling my sister, Rebecca Amos, who's got a master's in early childhood development, and begged and pleaded with her to help me start this school. But what was the idea? You were just going to get some sort of friends or a couple families and kind of do an informal thing at your house? Yes, exactly. It was just going to be this little thing and we were all going to, you know, sit around and, you know, sing Kumbaya and all get along and create this cute little school. Right. And I would imagine like, I mean, Jim being kind of an iconoclast and a,

you know, sort of a maverick thinker, I would think that he would embrace the idea of, you know, a different kind of education or be open to that idea. I mean, what were his thoughts on it originally? Oh yeah,

no, absolutely. I mean, both of us, you know, he went to a year and a half of college. I didn't ever go to college. Our schooling, he went to a year and a half of college. I didn't ever go to college. Our schooling, he had a pretty good education out of Canada.

But really, we're very, very self-taught. And that's just kind of how we've rolled in the world. But he was completely open to it. He's incredibly supportive of, you know, any crazy ideas I might have. And that's probably, you know, the magic that we have between us because we both have each other's back on that front. It's important. It is.

It is. So one thing in terms of Muse, one thing led to another, and we ended up finding a facility right here in Malibu. It's actually my friend David Bryan, who used to be the head of New Roads. And our two older kids were at New Roads at this point, which is a great school. Um, and they had taken over this property and they could only fill up half of it. And there was this cute little building with a kitchen. So we leased it for two years.

That space off on Las Flores, right? Exactly. Yeah, exactly. I remember it must have been maybe a year after you started the school, being down in Malibu at Cross Creek, and there was like an environmental fair, like a green day or something like that. There was all these booths and vendors. It looked like just kind of a large farmer's market, but it was a bunch of green businesses. And it was either you or your sister, I don't remember, but it was just a little desk and a chair. And you had a little sign that said Muse, and you were just sitting there by yourself,

wanting to talk to anybody who would talk to you about your school. And I was like, wow, you know, I didn't see too many people coming to talk to you. And I was like, wow. I didn't see too many people coming to talk to you. And I was like, I wonder how that's going. I mean, this was many years ago. It must have been right at the beginning. It was. It probably was in our first year. And it was me sitting at that little table.

And I would talk to anybody who would listen. I think Julie and I came by and said hi and talked to you for a minute. But yeah, I don't know why, but I vividly remember that. And I remember thinking, it's got to be really hard to start a school. Yeah. But, yeah, I don't know why, but I vividly remember that. No, we started— And I remember thinking, like, it's got to be really hard to start a school. You know, and I really had no idea. But we started with 11 children in this little one-room schoolhouse, basically, and had a garden.

I mean, all of the things that we're doing now, it was just tiny. Right. And now we start at two years old, so we have an amazing early childhood program, and we go all the way through high school. And we have, gosh, I think close to 180 children now. 180, yeah. Two campuses. Uh-huh.

And we are working diligently on Muse Global to open schools around the world. Oh, this is news to me. Yeah. I don't know about this. Yeah. Oh, wow. I know. It's really cool.

It's really cool. And we're keeping within the Greek mythology of the nine muses. So our first rollout will probably be nine clusters of nine, so 81 schools around the world, and we have an unbelievable amount of interest. In fact, I might be going to Dubai in a couple of days to meet with the people over there. But in Europe, France, China, India, so many different places. And what's exciting to me about that is that you're not only educating the children,

but what ends up happening is the children take this information home. They want to know, you know, why can't we, even if we don't have a garden, can we set up a window box in the kitchen and grow some vegetables? And, you know, we can compost too. And, you know, it would be good to eat plant-based and hear all the reasons why, um, you know, so it, it will give us a platform and an ability to be able to spread the message through, through education, through the children, to the mommies, to the families, you know, infiltrate as much as we can around the world. So that's another avenue of bringing the plant-based

information out into the world. Right, right, right. Yeah, I mean, it's a beautiful thing to have sort of been watching this thing flourish over the years. And, you know, now, as you know, sort of been watching this thing flourish over the years. And, you know, now, as you know, my two daughters are attending Muse. I know they're loving it, by the way, it's been really an amazing experience. And I think to bring it back to those kind of three ideals that formed the premise upon which you wanted to, you know, create a new way of educating this idea of, you know, sort of fostering self-esteem, you know, good nutrition and allowing kids to kind of work at their own pace. I mean, that's really been my daughter's experience, right? Like it's almost it's small enough that every child has kind of their own course set by their teacher in terms of what they want to explore and how they're going to explore it.

and how they're going to explore it that is premised upon them being passionate about something and then using that as a focal point to bring an educational opportunity to surround that and all the disciplines. Is that fair to say? It is, absolutely. I mean, what excites me mostly about it is that every child that comes into the school, mostly about it is that every child that comes into the school, we ask them what they love, not their parents. We ask the child. And when their little eyes start to twinkle, and they get all fidgety and excited about something that they want to do, and then we build the academics into that, what happens is kids that don't like to read, kids that hate math, kids that say they hate science,

all of a sudden these children are working two, three, and sometimes four grade levels ahead of the state and national standards because they love what they're doing. I mean, we've had kids cry because they can't go to school on Saturdays or because there's Christmas break or because we're letting out for the summertime. I mean, it's amazing. It is amazing. And it seems so commonsensical. Like, of course. Like, if you get them excited about what they're doing, then they'll be self-propelled.

But our whole system is kind of set up in opposition to that, unfortunately. Yeah. You know, and so it takes a crazy maverick like you to spearhead this thing. And it's been beautiful to see it grow. And, you know, we've had our own journey with this. It was very similar to your own. You know, with our older boys had kind of gone through more traditional schooling and we were able to kind of see the, you know,

the negatives and the positives built into that. But with respect to our daughters, you know, Julie specifically, cause she was really leading the charge with this. She was feeling the same way that you were feeling. And we had gatherings at our house with friends and we were going to try to do our own thing at our house and never could really get it off the ground. And meanwhile, like you're on this track, you know, over here doing what you're doing. And then when you moved into the campus,

that's literally like, you know, right around the corner from our house and we went and checked it out. I was like, this is, why are we trying to recreate something that already exists that's over here that we can step right into? And I'm so glad that we have, it's really been very empowering for our girls. And it's, it's been a privilege to kind of be part of that community. And I think community really is what is really of the most importance in the kind of tone that you've said over there.

There's so many gatherings for the parents to be involved in. And you have your muse talks where you bring in these amazing people. They get to speak. You were one of them. I was the pilot case now you're onto the real the fancy people but um yeah there is a real sense of of family over there that i hope you can uh hold on to as you continue to grow and and the campus is i mean basically you took over this old like sort of defunct summer camp right right? And all the classrooms are cabins.

And they're all like their own, you know, unique art pieces. And we were there, what was it? Was it last spring when you had the kind of ceremony to introduce and unveil the solar panels? What are they called? The sunflowers. The solar flowers. Yeah. So how many of them?

There are five of them? There are five of them. Right. So explain what these are. So this was a birthday present that Jim gave to me for my 50th birthday. And, you know, most girls probably like to get jewelry and maybe a week at the spa or something like that. That's not who I am. He had me in absolute tears when he gave me a presentation.

It was four pictures of the campus, and photoshopped in were these solar flowers. And they stand about 25 feet tall, and they're 28 feet in diameter and they track the sun just like a real flower does and generate about 90 percent of all of the energy for the campus and we have a um dash dashboard is that what they call it i I don't know. Yeah, I think. Control panel? Well, it's on the iPad.

I don't know. The kids have them, you know. Yeah, interface. Yeah, an interface. We'll call it an interface. And so the children can actually track the input, the solar input, and how much output they're creating. So all of a sudden, the kids are, you know, if you don't shut the door when you're supposed to shut the door or keep it open when you're supposed to keep it open or turn off the lights or turn them on or, you know, those kinds of things. So they're highly aware of energy usage at this point. And the panels are fueling about 90% of the energy use of the school. Is that right?

Yes. Yeah, they're amazing. They're unique works of art. And the solar panels sort of are a circular array that form the kind of sunflower pattern. And they're massive. They're huge. And what was really cool at the unveiling

when James was talking about it, he was talking about how he came up with the design and then compiled a team of engineers to kind of, you know, further conceptualize and construct these things. And there was a moment where he realized, like, this could be a business, like, this is a really viable, cool thing. And they could have, they could have sort of, you know, protected the intellectual property for their own purposes. But instead, there was a decision to just make it open source so anybody could take this design, copy it, and use it. That's right. Which is really very cool. Yeah. So are people doing it? You know, actually, yeah.

There are a couple science centers and parks and those types of people who are calling and asking for the information. Yeah, so it's really cool. That is really cool. Yeah. It was a great birthday gift. Oh, my gosh.

It's, you know, he comes up with the, he just, yeah, he's a cool guy. But, yeah, the other really special thing about that campus is that we're a die-free, toxic-free, pesticide-free zone. And everything, because it was a 50-year-old camp, and we basically gutted the whole thing and tore some of the buildings down. thing and tore some of the buildings down. So all of the, all of the, um, the rims around the windows and the baseboards and, um, gosh, chairs, tables, all kinds of things. Are you, are that's reclaimed wood from buildings that we took down? So, I mean, everything that got used for the sort of repairs and reformation of the campus was using materials that were already like on site right or reclaimed or at least re like recycled yeah most of them were most of them were um and then we did you know we were able to do some swaps with um for instance

our our carpeting our rugs, was an environmental company, and we were able to give them our old rugs, and they recycled them. Because that's what they do. They recycle and churn them out. So there are no fire retardants in any of the fabrics, couches, rugs. Nothing off-gases. everything's zero VOC and it's, uh, we don't use any pesticides for any of rodent control. We actually have a falconer. Yeah. The falconer who flies. There's actually a falconer on campus. It's a guy walking around with a falcon on his hand with the little cap on the falcon.

The falcon keeps the predators away from the garden. Yep. Yeah, and it works beautifully. So on this sort of theme of sustainability, that obviously dovetails nicely into the diet. You guys have a garden there. All the kids are learning how to grow food, and a percentage of that food makes its way into the kitchen, that finds its way onto the plates for the kids? 90% of the produce that's grown there goes into the kitchen.

And we have 120 raised beds. In the upper school, they actually grow a surplus of produce and they take it to local restaurants around the corner. Right. By bicycle. By bicycle. Of course. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

So there's, you know, no carbon footprint. And, you know, these kids are really passionate about that, so they've created their curriculum around that. They created a business plan. They went to the restaurants themselves and made the deal with them, and they grow them. They know what their inputs are and their outputs are and their yields are, and it's impressive.

It's really cool. Do you know Stephen Ritz, who's an educator in the Bronx? No. I had him on my podcast. You've got to meet this guy. He's got to come out and be a muse speaker. I'll give you his information. Okay, yeah.

He basically has transformed the landscape of the Bronx by teaching young kids how to grow food, and it started with tower gardens in his classroom, and then it kind of morphed out into vacant lots across the Bronx by teaching young kids how to grow food. And it started with Tower Gardens in his classroom, and then it kind of morphed out into Vacant Lots across the Bronx and literally taking large amounts of underprivileged kids who have a lot of problems at home and socioeconomically and et cetera and really getting them to invest in this process of growing food and learning about food and really transforming their lives

and the community itself. And he's an incredibly passionate, energetic speaker. He's done a couple of amazing Ted talks, but he'd be a guy who would be great to come to muse and talk to the kids. Yeah, definitely. I'll try to connect you guys. Yeah, he's cool. But the thing that really,

really grabbed headlines across the world is when you guys made this decision that your school launch was going to be 100 plant-based 100 plant-based starting this year yes right yeah and that was the thing like of all the stuff that you're doing all of which we've kind of gone through all these amazing things that was the thing that like seemed to be the thing that everyone has like grabbed onto and you know sort of put the school on the map in a global sense in terms of awareness. Um, so what went into that decision and what was it like kind of, uh, making that announcement to the parents and kind of seeing what happened as a result of that?

It's multidimensional. Yes. I would imagine that was tricky. Yeah. Well, you know, we realized after, you know, Jim and I both gave quite a few different speeches and we were out there talking about being an environmentalist and realizing that you kind of can't be a full on, full fledged walkledged, walk-in-the-walk environmentalist if you're still eating animals. So here I was, you know, founder of this environmental school and still serving animal products. And so a couple times a year we get together with the core group and talk about one-year, three-year, five-year plans and what are we going to do in the future. And I dropped the bomb that I thought we should go plant-based.

Well, Elliot was there, the guy who gave me forks over knives, and he was like, yeah, that's a great idea. And everybody else kind of went, yeah, no, we can't, no, we can't do that. And mainly, ultimately, it was out of fear that people wouldn't go for it. We did come to a decision and we did decide to do it. What we did though was we decided to take a full year and a half and educate our community. Because, you know, like we talked about earlier, some people can go cold turkey and some people really need to you need to go hold their hand and walk them through it and there was a lot of there's a lot of fear behind it because people think that you will

fall over and die if one meal out of three of the day well yeah but i mean i you know people really are nervous that if you don't eat flesh three times a day, that you're just going to shrivel up and die. And it's like, well, what about the protein? Well, you can ask any doctor in America. Have they ever treated a protein deficiency? I think I heard you say this. Did I say that?

I think it was you think I probably heard it somewhere else too, but yeah. No doctor that I know of has ever treated a patient with a protein deficiency. No, exactly. But boy, have they treated a lot of things created by protein, like cancers and heart disease and diabetes and all those kinds of lovely things. you know, all those kinds of lovely things. So we made the announcement, and we lost, we probably lost about 40 to 50 families when we decided we were going to go plant-based. And when you're small, that's a lot.

Yeah, it was kind of scary, actually. What ended up happening, though, is we created a a food committee and we brought families into that and we really talked about you know what was the best way to educate the community and let them know that you know not only were their children going to you know not fall over and shrivel up and die but that they would you know it would really help them on so many levels but they were very worried going to not fall over and shrivel up and die, but that it would really help them on so many levels. But they were very worried. They were worried about the brain development and essential fatty acids and all of those things.

We brought Neil Barnard in to write a lot of information for us to hand out, and Dr. Dean Ornish, and just to really, you know, again, to get the science behind us and to get the facts behind us that what we were doing was, you know, very, very healthy, not only for the environment, but for the children and their developmental growth. And from that, we were able to kick off a campaign, which is One Meal a Day for the Planet, OMD, which I gave you the book earlier. But to really let them know, if they really had a problem with it, that it was one meal a day.

You know, one meal a day and one snack a day. And so now we have, um, we have our sustainability pledge. So you can do one meal a day for the planet, which saves, and I don't have those stats in front of me. Um, but it saves an enormous amount of water, five pounds of grain, a thousand gallons of water. Uh, I can't remember a certain percentage of CO2 emissions and animals life. Like I, you know, exactly the children can probably start faster than I can. Right. Um, so we do one meal a day for the planet, two meals a day for the planet or all in.

And we were amazed at how many people, you know, check the box all in. And we've had an influx of families come to the school because we're plant based. We had a woman, she moved all the way from Missouri to bring her children to Muse because it's plant based. So it's it's you know it's really pulled in a whole another community and the children love the i mean the food is amazing kayla is an amazing chef i've eaten lunch there before i mean like oh my god like they get to eat this for lunch every day it's extraordinary you know it's really such a privilege and a gift and i feel like that's an important you know kind of the lesson baked into that is this idea of being, you know, true to who you are, right? Like you can't just be half of

what you say you are. And when you have to kind of bring everything into alignment, it's a scary thing and you lose people initially. But those are the people that probably, you know, weren't best served by what you're doing anyway. And ultimately you're going to, you know, weren't best served by what you're doing anyway. And ultimately, you're going to, you know, attract the people that you want to have part of that community. And it will grow from there. Yeah. And we've had so many schools around the nation, reach out to us. And I actually have to say in a couple different countries as well, but reach out to us to say, how did you do that? And, you know, can you help us? Can you give us recipes? Can you help us look at ways to, you know, make our school plant-based as well? Yeah, that's really important because that was kind of the next line of kind of conversation I

want to get into is that, look, not everybody can go to MUSE. This is not accessible, but it kind of exists as this model, right? And so how can we take these principles that seem to be functioning well and either scale it like you're intending with the Muse Global or, you know, find other ways to have it modeled in currently existing institutions so that more kids can get exposed to these ideas that seem to be working with the kids. Yeah. I mean, again, I think it's, you know, the opportune moment. I think a lot of, certainly, you know, in coastal cities, you know, San Francisco, LA, West Coast, East Coast kind of thing. I mean, people are looking at this more in schools. The vegetarian schools are in New York City. And the only reason that they're not completely vegan is because it's mandatory to serve milk. And I think that...

PS244. Yeah, yeah. And those people, I actually met them in New York. They're fantastic. I went to the school, too. The Coalition for Healthy Schools. Amy Hamlin. That's right. There's a woman behind that. The Coalition for Healthy Schools. Amy Hamlin was the woman behind that.

Yeah, fantastic, fantastic. Yeah, and putting greenhouses. Cecil Robards in New York City. I mean, she was the first one to get a greenhouse put on a school there, and I think they're over 30 now, you know, in different schools and, um, what Kimball Musk has done with putting gardens in schools and, and Kelly Meyer. And, you know, so there, there are so many people that are doing that. And, you know,

I even talked to my nieces and nephews in Oklahoma and, you know, they're, they're starting to shift. And when you see that, when you realize that people really in, like, the middle of America are starting to shift their ideas around gardening and around food, you know, it's exciting. It is exciting, but it's also kind of weirdly and ironically, like, full circle. But it's also kind of weirdly and ironically like full circle because you're saying middle America, but that's the breadbasket. That's where farming and gardening kind of began in America, right? So it's like now you're introducing this maverick concept of gardening or learning how to grow your own food. Well, those are the people that were originally doing it. Well, the only thing that they really grow down there now is corn and soy to feed the cows. Right. And this is the bigger problem that we have to face. That's right. Exactly.

What is the experience of kind of watching a child go from that place of being totally disconnected from food and where food comes from, and then learning how to, you know, not only plant a seed, but take care of that seed, foster it, fertilize from, and then learning how to, you know, not only plant a seed, but take care of that seed, foster it, fertilize it, and then ultimately, you know, pull it out of the garden and bring it into the kitchen and then eat it. Like, is there a way to encapsulate the impact of that on the child and what it's like to kind of see that educational experience taking place? It's a beautiful moment when the child arrives at Muse and the parents say, my children doesn't eat anything that's green. So I'm really worried they're going to starve at lunchtime. And usually it's about a month to two months in,

and the children are doing exactly that. They're planting the seed. They're working with our gardening experts, and they're harvesting. They're eating the vegetables right out of the garden, directly from the plant to their mouths. And before you know it, they're sitting around a table with all of their peers and eating green beans with flaxseed oil on them,

and their parents are dumbfounded and can't understand how in the world that that could possibly happen. But it also, there's, again, it comes back to that support thing. So, you know, if you've got eight-year-olds, seven-year-olds, six-year-olds, and their friends are trying it, you know, like, yeah, it's really good. Try it. They will. Because, you know, it's that peer pressure thing in a super positive way. Well, and then the education starts to work in the reverse because then the kid goes home and starts, you know, educating the parents. Exactly. Why don't we have green beans at home? Which is an amazing thing. No, I don't like the ones in the can. I want the ones that

grow in the dirt. Right. Right. Right. Yeah. Incredible. I mean, it's hard to really estimate the impact of that. I mean, really the fundamental kind of core principle of sustainability, you know, existing as a centerpiece of this school is really worked into the fiber of everything that you're doing. And that's like, becomes second nature for young people, you know, becomes part of who they are and their character. What does that mean? You know, 10 years, 20 years down the line and whatever they end up doing with their lives. Global champions. There you go.

That's what we like to grow it and use. Yeah, it's an amazing thing. No, because as adults, we do, we recycle, we drive our Priuses, we try to change our light bulbs, we try to do all these things, and we dislocate our shoulders patting ourselves on the back for doing that and calling ourselves environmentalists.

You start at a very young age, and it's true. It just becomes second nature to them, and they don't know anything that's different. That's just what you do. Well, let's shift gears a little bit. I want to kind of step into a day in the life of Susie and James Cameron. And I would imagine that there is no typical day. But what is it sort of like to be in this world that you're in where you guys are juggling so many different things? And how do you make your marriage function properly in that context oh gosh that's a load i was gonna say sorry that's a lot um we can parse it out no i don't i don't think anybody's i mean people have asked me you know

pieces of it but i've never had actually done a day in the life of it. Well, you know, again, we have a gaggle of kids. So it's like, you know, he's a daddy, I'm a mommy. We get up, we get the kids up. It's time to make breakfast. It's got to, you know. Right. Where's my blue shirt?

I can't find my blue shirt. I've got to find it. You know, no, I don't really want a burrito for breakfast. You know, the typical things. The typical things. I think just that piece alone, feeding the animals and feeding the children and feeding everybody, that's pretty typical, I think, of any family

waking up in the morning. Yeah, there's nothing like kids to pull you out of yourself and force you to really understand what's most important. But at the same time, kind of butting up against that you have all of these environmental concerns, you're trying to run a school, you know, Jim is in the process of, you know, trying to make Avatar 2 and any one of those, you could just lose yourself completely and, know become sort of you know obsessed with whatever project that you're in but you're kind of juggling all of these things any one of which would be plenty for anybody yeah so how do you balance that still find time for your relationship and just kind of enjoying your life um i think it's, you know, again, it's support. Jim and I are really so, both of our families are intact.

We're just, we came from really grounded places, I guess. And we want to provide that for our children. And Jim and I just support each other 550% no matter what. We always like to use the flying metaphor. When you're flying an airplane and you want to know, you know, you want somebody to look out their right window off of the right wing and see another aircraft over there, you might say it's on your 3 o'clock. Or if it's behind you, it's on your 6 o'clock. Or if it's to the left of you, it's on your 9 o'clock.

Or it's, you know on your 6 o'clock. Or if it's to the left of you, it's on your 9 o'clock. Or it's at 12 o'clock. And so we always say, I got your 2. I got your 6. Or I got your 3. Yeah, all of those things. Because sometimes he's leading and I'm following. Sometimes we're side by side. And sometimes I'm leading and he's following.

So I think that piece in and of itself is, is really, really important. And we both allow each other. I shouldn't say allow. We both support each other in going out and, and living our passions with whatever that is. Um, I mean, I'm currently writing books and, you know, doing food choice task force and the school and coming up with all kinds of, you know, fun, crazy other things. He is, in fact, writing Avatar 2, 3, and 4.

Right. Yes. And he works, he's got an office here, right? So does most of that take place here? He does. I mean, he has Lightstorm. There's offices for that. But, like, how much of his take place here he has light storm there's offices for that but like how much

of his work is here versus as of right now while he's writing i would say he's here um 98 of the time and we call that his man cave so he's been spending a lot of time in his man cave writing um he'll probably go into production in four to five months i would imagine imagine. Oh, that's coming up. That's sooner than I thought. And that's going to be in New Zealand, though, right? The live action part will be in New Zealand. And then he's at Manhattan Beach Studios. So he will be there every day.

And that will be a big shift. But we've gone through it once. So now going through it a second time. Right. But are two, three, and four going to be produced simultaneously? Yes. In one big shot. So you're in for a long road here for a little bit, right?

Number one took about five to six years because they were writing the book as they went along and creating all kinds of new technologies. And so he really feels like, yeah, of course they're going to create some new technologies because he just kind of has to do those kinds of things. But it's not like starting from scratch like they did the last time. So he really feels like he'll be able to do the three films in the same time period. But all of the motion capture and everything will be done here in the states and

then um new zealand will be doing the uh the live action and then all of the special effects are done through weta right down in new zealand as well and does he do like does he cut the film here at the house or is this sort of like the the hq for kind of editing because editing is taking place all over the world i would imagine with all the effects um editing is at all in-house special effects are are out right right right right no he and his team do all the editing is actually going to happen at the house here um yeah it did for the first one yeah they had they have editing stations down at the studio as well um because it takes teams right yeah yeah yeah yeah for sure yeah and i and i i i mean it'll you know he he has this slogan if it's not challenging it's not fun

so the first one was you know incredibly challenging so he has to up the ante um but we're excited. I can't wait. I can't wait to see them. Right. And this is the part where you're going to tell us all about what the plot of the movie is. Right. Exactly.

Exactly. The most famously tight-lipped project that there is. Yeah. Well, it's exciting stuff. We call them the launch codes. Is that what it is? Yeah, yeah. Well, it's all, I'm sure, resting in his head,

and only parts of that information are vested in other individuals, except for maybe you. Yeah. Maybe you know, and you won't even say, right? If I told you, then I'd have to kill you. Yeah, yeah. And I like living, so I'm not even going to ask you. Exactly.

Well, cool. Yeah. Well, we've got to wrap it up here in a couple of minutes, but there's a couple other things I wanted to talk about. The other thing is that your sustainability advocacy extends even further, right, to garments. You have this red dress, no, what is it called? Red carpet green dress program. Yeah. So tell me what that's about. red dress, no, what is it called? Red carpet, green dress program? Yes, yeah.

So tell me what that's about. So for the last six years, we ran a contest, a dress design contest, red carpet, green dress. And the idea was to, it was a global dress design contest, and the idea was to be able to create a dress out of sustainable fabrics that would be worn by an actress and then we made a tux an actor um on the red carpet at the oscars um and we did that for for six years the first year was when avatar was was at the oscars um which was the idea i thought it was going to be kind of a one-time thing and then realized I'd opened up a can of worms, as it were,

and realized just how devastating the fashion industry is on our environment as well. Yeah, it's harder to do that math. I mean, when you look at your plate and with all the things that we've talked about, it's easier to kind that math. I mean, when you look at your plate and with all the things that we've talked about, it's easier to kind of like conceptualize the impact of that. But we so blindly just put clothes on, and we're even more divorced from the process of how that's created versus our food.

Right, exactly. You know, I think what has come out of that, and it's something I started realizing very early on, that even making a sustainable dress isn't that sustainable because you only wear those kind of dresses once. And if you're really, really brave, you might wear them twice. Right. You know?

So the whole thing is... It's silly. So, but what I ended up saying was that was that you know it's not red carpet green dress isn't just about a pretty dress on the red carpet it's about the fact that we all wear clothes every single day from the moment that we're born until the day that we die gesture it's a way of messaging to millions and millions of people that watch that show it is to maybe think a little bit more about what that entails right right so Right. So I'm, I'm taking that a step further at this point because, um,

that does reach a certain audience. I mean, it's the, it is the most read watched red carpet in the world. Certainly. Um, it's important to, you know, I mean, that's another motto in our family is go big or go home or, you know, I mean, that's another motto in our family is go big or go home, or, you know, after Jim did his dive, it was go deep or go home. But I'm looking actively to create a clothing line of clothes that people can wear every day because people just automatically when they're interviewing me about red carpet green dress they say oh you must wear sustainable clothes every day and i say oh well i wish i could you know but it's really really challenging to find

jeans or a t-shirt right or you know and something that's that's environmentally friendly that's that's produced in a way that's not devastating to the environment and that's healthy for your body, healthy for the planet, all of those different things. So that's one of my latest endeavors as well is creating a clothing line. Well, let me know when you have a men's line.

I'll do them both at the same time. Yeah, okay, good. Yeah, absolutely. Where can I get that tux? Yeah, right. Well, you know, this would be like everyday clothes at the same time. Yeah. Okay. Good. Absolutely. Where can I get that tux? Yeah. Right. Well, you know, this will be like everyday clothes. Yeah. Tux, a tux is easy. I mean, we can do that with our eyes closed. You know, I can totally put you in touch with those kinds of people, but it's just like, you know, the long sleeve t-shirt and the pair of jeans or, you know, a cute dress or a pair of board shorts or whatever it might be.

Something that you feel okay putting on every single day. And it doesn't kind of look like dorky and hippie. Yeah, I know. That's the thing. There are some cool designers doing interesting things in this field, but there's a's, but it's, there's, there's a lot more that can be done. You know, I feel like that's a wide open market and the trick is figuring out how to do it so that it doesn't become exorbitantly expensive because when you take all of those things into account and you really do want to manufacture that garment in that way, you're

looking at price points that don't make sense for most people. So that's the goal. And that's what we're really distilling down is to create the clothing line that will have a price point that people can afford. Right. And it's hard to compete when you're competing with sweatshops and God knows where, the environmental runoff of these factories. It's like you buy your T-shirt at the Gap or wherever and you don't think about it, but there's a huge impact to that.

So it's going to be interesting to see how that develops. But I think there's a lot of growth opportunity in that sector. Yeah, definitely. There's a great documentary that I just watched over the weekend. It's called True Cost. And it's mind blowing. And it's all about the fast fashion industry. Uh-huh.

Yeah. Cool. So what's the next big project that you're excited about? Or is it just moving all this stuff forward? I think it's moving. Food Choice Task Force, is that the focus? It is. It is.

I mean, I live and breathe that every single day. Because I think that's the most urgent thing that we can all do right now to make the world a better place for our children. And it's something, like we talked about before, it is one simple, elegant thing that everyone can do is just to look at what's on their plate and eat more plants. So if someone's listening and they're inspired and they're ready to get active or get more active in some of the things that we've been talking about today, some of the things that we've been talking about today, what are some resources that you can direct people towards, whether they're books or documentaries or some of the websites that are affiliated with the organizations that you're working on?

I mean, where do you commonly direct people? Well, you're a great resource, dude. Well, if they're listening, they already know, but they're tired of me. This is about you. Yeah, you know, I think Forks Over Knives is amazing. It's really eye-opening. They have a great website full of recipes and stories about real people every day who have turned around disease and lost weight and look great and have energy,

all of those things. They've got cookbooks. The China Study has a new cookbook. They have plans. There's, what is it called? My Plant-Based Journey by Lenny Mulraith. Oh, Lenny Mulraith. Oh, Lenny Mulraith. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mulraith, yeah, yeah. She's cool. And that's actually a really great book. Because it doesn't matter where you are in the journey. You can be just starting or three and a half years into it, and it's got all kinds of great different ideas. great different ideas. PCRM has their 21-day kickstart program.

Yeah. PCRM.org. Yeah, and they're great. They're great. Dr. Barnard is fantastic. He's amazing. Yeah, really awesome. Rip Esselstyn has great stuff. And especially for guys who, you know, they

kind of think that they've, you know, that guys got to eat meat, you know, um, this is a little side note, but it always kind of makes me chuckle and I'll probably, I'll probably blush, but there was a great a great, speaking of PCRM, they did a great riff on the anti-smoking campaigns. The anti-smoking campaigns that really made a difference was when they put the big billboard up and they put the hunky cowboy on the billboard. Marlboro Man guy.

Marlboro Man guy with the cigarette that was limp. Yeah, I remember that. And last year during National Meat Week, PCRM put out an ad with a guy standing next to a barbecue with a hot dog on a fork that was limp. Okay. Okay. But a lot of people don't connect those. It's like the canary in the coal mine.

Yeah. And, you know, people, there are so many connections with erectile dysfunction and eating meat that men don't really get. Yeah, that's the way to get a guy to start paying attention. Yeah. If there's a guy who's struggling with that problem uh you know that's a way in well that's actually another thing that we're that we're doing jim and i are executive producing a film called um men meet and the most dangerous myth and it's all about the fact that you know men feel like they need to eat meat in order to be manly. And I've actually spoken to you about it.

Is this the same as the Game Changers movie? Game Changers. That's the new working title? No, actually, that's the tagline. It's Game Changers. Yeah, that's exciting. Yeah. Where are they in the process of getting this? We want you in there, too.

I need you in the movie. Where is everything with the process of getting this? Because we want you in there, too. I need you in the movie. Where is everything with the movie right now? There's been a lot of talk about it. I mean, this movie's been a long time in the making. Well, it has. It has Luis Sollos, who he's just releasing Racing Extinction right now. And he's actually in, I believe he's in Paris with COP right now. So as soon as that's all really,

and I think it releases tomorrow, December 2nd, I think. Oh, Racing to Extinction? Racing Extinction. Racing Extinction, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's amazing. I haven't seen it yet. Anyway, he's our director.

For people that are listening, he's the guy who directed The Cove. Right, exactly. And he's extraordinary. Yeah, so that's exciting. Yeah, so he's our director for Game Changers. And so that will kick into gear at the beginning of the year. Yeah, that's very cool.

Big time. Yeah. I think that project has the potential to really shift awareness and create some interesting conversations. So I'm excited for that to come out. Yeah, just to have these totally ripped, awesome, sexy guys, and they're all plant-based. Hello. Hello.

That's the way to get people to pay attention, right? Yeah, yeah. Back to the vanity part. Exactly. Well, listen um this was amazing the work that you do is beyond inspiring and as i said at the outset nothing but crazy mad respect i don't know where you guys find the energy to move all these projects forward uh and do it with such grace and attention to quality. It's really inspiring for me to watch from the sidelines and also sort of be part of the community through Muse

and sort of be adjunct to your mission. It's really a beautiful thing, and it's going to be exciting to see how some of these projects continue to blossom and unfold and hopefully create more conversations and catalyze much needed change. Cool. So thank you. Yeah. Thank you so much for those beautiful words.

I appreciate you being here. If people want to connect with you, where's the best place for, I mean, you're everywhere on the internet, but where's the best place to direct them? SusieAmos.com. You're on Twitter. Susie Musing on Twitter. Susie Musing on Twitter. And you're on Facebook and all that kind of stuff. And I've got Facebook.

I got that on, yeah. And the website for Food Choice Task Force, what is that? Is there a website for that? FoodChoiceTaskForce.org. Okay. Yeah. And they can go there. So FoodChoiceTaskForce.org,

SusieAmasCameron.com, MuseSchool.org. MuseSchool.org, of course. RedCarpetGreenDress.com. You have a lot of websites. Any of the above. Right, great. All right. Well, thanks so much yeah thank you appreciate it all

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Plants.