The Rich Roll Podcast - Terry Crews On Healthy Masculinity, Strength Through Vulnerability & True Power

Episode Date: April 25, 2022

In today’s episode, we explore masculinity—both toxic and healthy. Overcoming obstacles. How to confront your past, own your path, and ultimately step into your truest power and most self-actualized self. Our guide for this journey is star of screens big and small, Terry Crews. You may know him from films like Idiocracy and The Expendables. Or from his starring turn in television shows like Brooklyn Nine-Nine, Everyone Hates Chris, America’s Got Talent or one of his many other projects. Terry’s latest book, and the focus of today’s conversation, is entitled Tough: My Journey To Power: a memoir that chronicles the trauma, challenges and unhealthy social programming he faced—factors that led to anger, addiction, selfishness, entitlement, and the many problems those dispositions invite. Today Terry shares his journey—warts and all. The visually inclined can watch the magic transpire on YouTube. As always, the podcast streams wild and free on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Pick up Rich’s lates book VOICING CHANGE Vol. II HERE. For full show notes and to read more about Terry, go HERE. Enjoy the show! Peace + Plants, Rich

Most addictions thrive in secrecy. The secret is the killer. Let me tell you my best advice, period. Find someone you love and trust and tell them. When I started to voice that I had an addiction, I started to voice what the pornography thing was. I started to voice what the pornography thing was. And I started to talk. It's like exposing the germs to sunlight. It loses its power. Slowly but surely, it takes the power away from it. So anyone who's going through this,

the more you find someone you trust that you can share these things with, it slowly starts to just, I like to say it shrinks and it gets cleaned out. But the secrecy man, oh, everything grows in secret dude. You lose total control. That's one reason why I'm so vulnerable. Because I don't want any secrets. I just don't. I don't want any more. I tell the whole story, and man, I'm in control. The Rich Roll Podcast. Hey, everybody. Welcome to the podcast. Today, we're going to talk about strength. We're going to talk about power, but not the physical kind, the mental and emotional kind. It's a conversation about masculinity, both toxic and healthy. It's about overcoming obstacles,

how to confront your past, own your path, and ultimately step into your truest power and most self-actualized self. Our guide for this journey is star of screens big and small, Terry Crews. You may know Terry from Idiocracy, The Expendable Movies, Brooklyn Nine-Nine, Everyone Hates Chris, America's Got Talent, or one of his many other projects. You're also likely familiar with Terry's insane physique, his incredible charm, but beneath it all is a guy who's actually endured a litany of uncommon hardships and really struggled immensely for the better part of his life to control his relationships, his image as a tough guy, his experiences with racism, all of which led to this destructive spiral

and ultimately a path forward, a path that has given him a new perspective and a new life altogether. Terry is an incredible guy and a powerful storyteller. This conversation is pure gold and it's coming right up, but first. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time.

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Navigating their site is simple. Search by insurance coverage, location, treatment type, you name it. Plus, you can read reviews from former patients to help you decide. Whether you're a busy exec, a parent of a struggling teen, or battling addiction yourself, I feel you. I empathize with you. I really do. And they have treatment options for you. Life in recovery is wonderful, and recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for so many layers to Terry Crews. Among the many things you may not

know about him, in addition to the fact that he is a former NFL linebacker, a lifelong artist, and also an accomplished furniture designer, he's also an author and his latest book out this week is entitled Tough, My Journey to Power, in which he illustrates how we face trauma, a ton of obstacles, unhealthy social programming, all factors that led to anger, addiction, selfishness, entitlement, and of course, all the problems that those dispositions invite and overcame them through embracing help, acknowledging his weaknesses, allowing himself to be vulnerable, tools that he leveraged to achieve true conscientious toughness and now beautifully shares to motivate and empower others. Today we cover it all. Terry was remarkably frank,

incredibly generous with his time. This conversation again is just fantastic. Can't wait for you to hear it. So let's do it. This is me and Terry Crews. Well, you got a lot going on. I appreciate you taking the time to do this, especially on Saturday, man.

I'm excited for you. The new book is coming out, lots to talk about. And to kind of kick things off, I was thinking about how to approach this conversation with you and thinking about what this show is about. And I talked to lots of different people across a multiplicity of specialties and expertise. But if there is one kind of core theme, it's transformation.

Like how do you weather obstacles? How do you persevere and grow and evolve and share what you learned along the way, like in service to other people? And as much as anybody that I know, you truly embody this ethos, not just in the many pivots across the course of your life and the many challenges that you faced and overcome,

but this transparency that you have around expansion into self authenticity and how you show up in the world and service is really the heart of kind of what I love to talk about and what you're all about. So I'm really excited to talk to you today. Thank you. So why don't we start with the subject matter of the book,

which is really this journey from what we could kind of, I mean, this term is played out, toxic masculinity, but this journey from being sort of the embodiment of toxic masculinity to this person who could be characterized as very much self-actualized in many ways. I mean, we're all on our journey. We all, there's always, the more you grow,

the more you realize how much more there is to grow. That's right. But why don't we start there and, you know, maybe talk a little bit about masculinity and how you're thinking about it. Yeah, you know, and you're right in the regard that the phrase toxic masculinity has been played out. It's just, right now it's been so overused

and misrepresented and all this stuff. But now the phrase that I like to use is abuse of power. And, you know, one thing for me, you know, in growing up, to give you some context and some background is that, you know, I grew up in Flint, Michigan in 1968. That was when I was born. And, you know, Flint, Michigan was Palo Alto. It was the premier young, vibrant city. General Motors was the number one corporation in the world. It was the Google of its generation.

So everyone was doing very, very well. And they made a lot of promises, a lot of promises to the citizens, to the families. And I mean, you could go there. My father moved up from a little town in Edison, Georgia, that was only 300 people. And he moved up to join the factory like most of my family did on both sides, from my mom's side and my father's side. They all came up from Georgia because of the promise of all these jobs and all this stuff. And so there was a lot of hope. There was, I mean, my early, early days,

it seemed like the city was growing and big events and all this stuff. And then all of a sudden, when I turned around nine or 10, you know, the late 70s, things started to change. And I mean, very, very quickly. And, you know, the auto industry was going down. The foreign cars started to change. And I mean, very, very quickly. And the auto industry was going down, the foreign cars started to come into play, into the picture. And a lot of people don't remember this, but I do. There used to be small smokestacks going up around the city. And what they were doing

was burning foreign cars in the lots. If you brought a Toyota into the city and people would surround it and burn it in effigy. Wow. I'm from Detroit. So I know, you know, I know that vibe. Like you ain't driving a foreign car. You remember that? I think it's still that way in Detroit. Oh yeah.

I mean, it's wild. I didn't see a foreign car until I joined the NFL and moved out to LA. And I was like, that's a Mercedes. Wow. Like that's a BMW. You know what I mean? Because it was just crazy. But on top of this,

on top of these small changes that were happening, there was things going on in my house. My father was extremely abusive. One of my earliest memories, like when I was four or five years old, I remember my father knocking my mother out, you know, right there in the living room. And I can't describe the helplessness I felt because, you know, my father was a giant. I mean, he had these big, giant, my hands are big, but he had these big calloused giant man hands.

And he would walk around the house with this boom. The way he walked and the way he moved and the way he did everything, it was like watching a giant in this force. And when he would hit my mother and I saw her on the ground, I was like, got it. That's the rules. We run it. Men run it. And this is the lesson I had in regards to masculinity. It was like, yo, you control everything. He controlled our household. It wasn't a thing where I felt the love of my father, but I felt the possessiveness of my father. I felt like it's something he owned

and he owned his family. And he made sure that we, it was a little bit, for him, he'd rather be feared than loved. And he never really gave any bit of, he never really showed any, what would be called vulnerability. It was always solid, hardcore, this is the way I am.

This is, you know, everything was military-like and brutal in judgment, you know, which it was, I mean, I literally, I remember just holding my breath when he was around. On top of that, you have the alcoholism and you talk about in the book, the morning dad and the night dad. Trying to connect with your dad in the morning,

but that fear when he would pull up in the driveway at night not knowing what you were gonna get and all of that. But I also appreciated in the book how you painted a broader picture of who this man was rather than just kind of characterize him as the abusive alcoholic. how you painted a broader picture of who this man was, rather than just kind of characterize him as the abusive alcoholic. This was a guy who like, despite everything, would put himself together in the morning,

would polish his shoes, was trying to find some modicum of pride in this factory job that he had. And this idea that a lot of the, you know, quote unquote, toxic masculinity aspects of who he was were driven by a sense of powerlessness when the factories were drying up and the jobs were going away and all of that.

Like it's more nuanced than just saying he was A, B and C. Exactly. And listen, the thing is my dad made it. Like from where he came from, it was a thing where, wow, like, he was a symbol of pride. It was everyone who was back home was like, man, you did it. His father, once I got into my past and I learned, and it took me, listen, in the course of writing this book, I found out more about my past than I ever knew in my 54 years on earth. Right. That's maybe my favorite part of the whole book when you trace that later in the book. It's so special. It's so amazing because

one thing I learned is his father was on a chain gang in Georgia, in the heat, in the 100 degree humidity of Georgia. He committed a few crimes and was convicted to serving on a chain gang. And he, as a child, had to pass his own dad on the school bus, knowing that his dad was out there tied to other prisoners, working on the roads. And I'm like, these are the kind of things that would drive a man to drink. Yeah. You know what I mean?

These are the kind of, that's the kind of pain that he could never articulate, that he couldn't understand. And his father died when he was 17 years old and he never got over it, you know,

because his father basically abandoned the family. And so when you're talking about this kind of deep, deep thing, and this is another thing, and I got in trouble a little bit about this early on, especially on the internet, but my dad needed his father.

And a lot of times, I know my purpose on earth, but what's wild is that I've had people tell me that fatherhood is not necessary. And I'm going, but you wouldn't say that about motherhood. And I'm telling you from my own personal experience, I needed my dad. And they go, well, no, if two parents love each other, it's all good. And then what was happening is, especially in the black community, the issue of there being no fathers is directly tied in to a lot of the problems that the community has. I mean, black men are 6% of the American population, yet make up more than 40% of the homicide victims, which is unreal, which is a problem, which is what you would call a catastrophe.

And I think there are parallels to the fact that the fatherlessness in that community, in our community, it ties into the violence. It ties into when you don't have a dad around, you go right to the gangs. You go right to those vices. You go right to all those things because you do need someone to guide you, to show you what being a man is like

when we're talking about masculinity. Right. That's the question. The epigenetics of generation after generation repeating, you know, like sort of patterns that don't work and kind of calcifying this idea of what it means to be a man because they're repeating the patterns of their father,

even if that father was present in the household, like in your case, who was your model for how to be a man in the world? It was a guy who was completely locked down emotionally. That's right. But I appreciated the attempt to try to understand him as a guy who was also caught between the white world and the black world.

Like he was too advanced in the factory to be accepted by, you know, the guys on the floor, right? Who are predominantly black. But he wasn't quite in the C-suite to be accepted by the guys on the floor, right? Who are predominantly black. But he wasn't quite in the C-suite to be accepted by the white guy. So he had his own like kind of identity crisis that he was trying to navigate simultaneously. A lot of people just,

what is really, really hardcore in his walk was that here he was, he was trying to make it and he felt like he was doing the right thing. And then what was crazy is here he was, he was trying to make it, and he felt like he was doing the right thing. And then what was crazy is that he was ridiculed by his peers just for advancing, which is another problem. And then when you advance, the people who kind of hold the key to your future wouldn't accept him completely simply because he was one of the few black foremen in the place.

So you had tons of white foremen all around, and they would go on up the ladder. He, being a black foreman, kind of was stuck in his place because he wouldn't get invited to the inner parties or the inner sector. You know what I mean? And then the blacks who were on the floor were just like, oh, he's a sellout. And what's wild is that there's a phrase that blacks use to describe what they would call black people who sell out, and it's a coon. And they look at you capitulating to the white world in order to be accepted. And what you're doing, you're doing what you world in order to be accepted. And what you're doing,

you're doing what you have to do to make it. And that's a hard role. And he took these things personally. And a good thing is I'm smart enough and have learned enough to know, to let that just, for me, these kind of insults are just like, okay, that has more to do with you than it does with me. But back in that time and that period,

there wasn't that kind of introspection. You know what I mean? It was just like, why am I not being accepted by my own people? You know? Right. And he was very angry. Right. It just created this really toxic anger.

So you have this unhealthy role model in the household. Meanwhile, the jobs are drying up, there's white flight, the gangs are coming in. So you go to school and you went to Flint Academy, which was like kind of the best place for you to go, right? But not a lot of great role models there either, right? And a lot of temptations. I mean, you could have easily,

like there's so many inflection points in your story and in your life. I mean, you could have easily gone down a dark alley with the whole gang thing. Yeah, yeah. I mean, because now on the flip side, my mother was extremely religious, which is a whole nother aspect.

Yeah, that's a whole other section of the book too. Right. I mean, we deal on all these topics and I kind of was right in the middle of all this stuff with the religion. I was not allowed to go to secular movies, listen to secular music, dance, play sports. Everything I ended up doing and being in my life,

I was not allowed to do as a kid. But we're about the same age. So we both remember well, that first experience of going to Star Wars. And for you, that was like this transgressive act. Listen, I begged, my mother was not gonna let us go. The religion that we were in was, it was so strict and so shame based

and everything was just, the thing is you could go to hell at any moment. That was the through line. Anything will send you to hell. So going to a movie, oh no, you're going to go to hell, you do that. And I begged my mother and she wouldn't let me go. And we were just like, and I couldn't, because you go to school and you hear people talking. This is the days when a movie was four walled. So a movie would be in the theaters for a year. You know, like now it's like, it's out in three weeks, you know what I mean?

But it would be in the movies for a year, two years, and it would be, and still be out. And I would hear the kids in school just, oh, Star Wars. And they'd be talking about different parts. And I'm like, oh my God, I just got to see this. And the anticipation and the, and the just, I just wanted to see it so bad. And my aunt, thank God she came through and she said,

my mother's name is Patricia. She said, Trish, you got to let these kids see this movie. You know, like I'm going to take them. Okay. Can I take them? And she just broke like, all right, go ahead. And I said, and it changed my life forever. I'll never forget that drive in, seeing, watching that. We all remember that first- John Williams score hit, you know what I mean? It was it.

So how does your mom square like what you're doing now with that like mindset? Well, my mom passed away 2015, but she also left- She was alive long enough to- Yeah, but she also left. She was alive long enough to- Yeah, she left the church. She left that version of what the church was when I was probably in high school.

And she went to a less restrictive version of Christianity, but I like to call it a cult. I mean, it was very cultish in all its ways when you're talking about rules and all this stuff. So she kind of moved on from that and grew into loving what I was doing. What's wild is that she kind of saw the light as we moved on and I got more popular and started doing things she started to understand. But she loved what I did at the end. One thing is she always, always loved entertainment. Like always.

And she had the secret. She had the subscriptions to all the magazines. Exactly. Like the People magazine and all that kind of stuff. Well, I worked hard to rectify, like to try to figure out what that was. Like we can't go to the movies, but we love the movies. We can't do this, but we love this.

And it was, so I used to read her people in entertainment magazines and the whole thing. And one thing we did together though was we would sit and watch the Carol Burnett show. I'll never forget every Saturday night. And it was the highlight, highlight of my life. Because first of all, I'll never forget my mom had, I was nursing a black eye that my dad had gave her. And she had like this, it was some frozen peas or something on her eye. And we would just sit and watch Carol Burnett and laugh and laugh. And then after it was over, I would repeat some of the skits.

And she would just laugh at me repeat some of the skits and she would just laugh at me doing some of the skits, the Tim Conway and Harvey Korman and all that stuff. And I'll never forget that. I mean, even to this day, I view that as my first step in what I'm doing now was the attempt to make my mother laugh through all the pain she was going through.

Well, there's this split in who you are for the better part of your life. Like on the one hand, you're this alpha athlete who guy's going in the weight room, trying to get big and strong to deal with what's going on at home and to deal with the sort of social stratification of school. But at the same time, you're a kid who's sensitive

and likes comic books and is really good at drawing and art, which creates this tension in like, who am I? Who is Terry Crews? And how am I showing up in the world? Like these two things kind of at war with each other. It was at war. And what was wild is that, I remember having to fight my way into school.

It was the gangs, the drug dealers, the people that were around me were always looking at me suspiciously. They would say things like, you talk white. And I'm like, what is that? And what was happening is, remember, I was kind of sheltered is what it was. I mean, I was religious and I was in this thing where it wouldn't allow us to do anything. But so I would go into my hole and I would draw and draw all day. I mean, I would draw what I wanted to see, you know, and it was an introspective, very nerdy world. I became this nerd.

But then when I came outside, I was always challenged on it. Like, oh, man, this is, you know, back in the day they called you a square, you know? And it was like, what? But then athletics coded black, coded hardcore. So I said, all right, so I have to be that, you know? And I knew that I had to be big, strong, fast, athletic, and they would leave me alone. It's like I knew when I got some traps that they would think twice about it.

They'd go, well, he's probably going to do some athletic stuff, so they leave him alone. But the skinny kid, he had no choice. They would beat him up. It would be crazy. It would be violent. They used to beat up my brother. He was smaller than I was.

He's my half-brother. And I remember these gang members threw him in the rosebush and he was just hurt. And we went home and he was in tears and I was just like pulling them out of it. And like, but they didn't mess with me. But that coded black and it coded hardcore. You know what I mean?

But it's almost like this shield, this armor that you built around yourself simply to protect that artist within you. Yeah. So he could still, you know, do his thing quietly without being bullied or taking the task. I always knew that I was what you would call weird, you know, in that respect, because people were always, you know, they would just tell me, man, you weird, man. You know, and I'm, hey, you know, whatever. I don't, I would just kind of blink it off. And this is another thing is that I would fake it.

You know, a lot of my acting ability, you know, one thing I used to do is dumb down. It was, oh, man, I don't know what y'all talking about, man. What you doing, man? Yeah, you know, and you just learned to mirror the lingo and I would mirror people so that they wouldn't be suspicious. You know what I mean? Like just get along to go along.

It was, and then go home and then all of a sudden find somebody who, or even be at school and find somebody who we had the same, you know, interest. And it was like, oh man, I could go all in on this. You know what I mean? And it was funny because even when I met my wife, she said, I thought you were the biggest nerd. And I saw you with your friend and you talked a whole different way. And I was like, ah, that's, that's kind of how I've been doing my whole life. I knew, because she was like,

here I'm thinking you're this nerdy black guy. And then I turn around and you're with these guys, your friends, and you're talking all cool. And I was like, it's like two people. And I was like, yeah, it's had to be that way my whole life. But this idea blossoms into this notion that this is the case for all men. Don't all men have two lives,

the secret life that they hide from everybody else and then the way that they show up in the world. That's right. That's just the way it is. It is, I believe that, I believe that. That was definitely the case for me. Yeah, so without any kind of healthy role models for yourself as a young person,

you strike this vow with your friend, which I think is super interesting. It's almost like a survival tactic. Like, hey, no one's showing us the way. Like we gotta help each other out. I mean, I remember coming to my friend, my best friend in the world, his name was Darwin. And I said, hey man, I said, dude,

no one is telling us anything. And we had nothing but questions. And we would try, we would ask. But the men wouldn't give it up. They would literally, you gonna find out? Hey, let me tell you something, you gonna find out on me? And you're like, oh man, what? And it's like, dude, I'm 11, can you please

just give me some clues? And then what was wild is that we would get all this erroneous information. The things they did volunteer was like, hey man, look look what you want to do you want to take these these girls tell them you love them get the draws and then bounce and i was like but what if you do like them no no you don't love you can't love them and you're like what are you talking about like because i had this vision of actual love like I mean the picture

like even in the movies like there's people fall in love though right then ignore man what you want to do you gotta have like four or five and you got to keep them on and you got always keep them on a leash and then call them and then don't call them back I mean and the whole phrase was called game and it's still talked about even now, you know. And it was like, you got to have game to run this thing. And then you can have all these girls. You got to have 10.

And the more you had, the more of a man you were. And I was like, wow. And that's, again, the message of what masculinity was, was that you were a pimp. And that's what I grew up with. And it was like, but I was like, but I don't, I just, and I had a really, really hard time because I said, I don't really wanna lie to people. But, and then I escaped into porn.

And that was the only, because my parents, my father to this day has never had a conversation with me about sex ever. And my mother was so religious. She was like, are you having sex? And I'm like, no, no, I'm not. Don't, don't do it. I'm trying. Listen, you know, you go to hell, right? And I'm like, okay, back to hell again. And so I totally avoided that conversation. And so I totally avoided that conversation. But so everything I learned was at nine years old when I went over my uncle's house, opened up his chest, and it was full of pornographic magazines. And a lot of people, what's wild about that is that everybody says, well, pornography is great. It's totally acceptable when people are over 18, the whole thing.

But I don't know anybody that ever encountered pornography at 18. No. Yeah. You know, you always encounter it in school or whatever. When someone's showing you and you're like six, seven, eight, nine. I mean, and it's damaging.

It's damaging. It really is. And we grew up in a time where it was, you know, in a box that your friend's dad had in the basement somewhere or buried in the woods or some shit like that. And now it's like ubiquitous and so readily available and unlimited and it's fucking crazy. I can't, listen, man,

the thought of what kids are possibly looking at right now, it's since chills down my back. Yeah. Chills. And because I know what path it set me on. And again, man, you know, people have said, I don't think you can be addicted to pornography and the whole thing. But my problem was, is that, hey, man, if day turns into night and you're still watching it and you say you don't want to and you keep doing it, I don't know what else to call it.

But I found even as a young kid, what happened is when I discovered it, it took all my problems away. I mean, when I opened that magazine, I didn't even know what I was looking at, mind you. I didn't even know how to have sex. But I just knew, oh, my God, this is mind-blowing. And I was totally numbed out.

And I forgot about the violence. I forgot about my dad. And I forgot about the religiosity. And then what would happen is I would get shame. And you'd be like, oh, Lord, I know. I'm going to hell. I'm going to hell. And so you would say, I would get shame and you feel like, oh Lord, I know I'm going to hell. I'm going to hell. And so you would say, I'll be good. I'll be good. And I became a performer. I became this person who wanted to keep peace in the house. I was going to be the best, most Christian kid. And I was going to be the best, most great kid for my dad, you know, and do whatever he says, right? But I had no say of my

own. Like what I wanted was always fourth thing down the line, you know what I mean? And I was taught that, like literally like, it don't matter what you want, you know, you better listen to what we're saying. You better listen to what's going on here. And so the neighborhood had pull, the gangs had pull, my parents had pool, but I had no voice. Right, and you're just trying to keep the peace and keep everyone else happy. I mean, it's classic child of alcoholic stuff. And what's interesting about your story

is like you've never drank, right? Like you saw your dad, you're like, I don't want that. You don't do drugs, but maybe you got the gene and it just got expressed through porn, right? And it was that way. I mean, alcohol would have served a similar purpose of just numbing the pain and allowing you to escape, but then creating external circumstances

that weren't so good, which leads to that shame spiral. But ultimately, because you're not dealing with what's causing that internal pain, you're always gonna go back to it. That's right. I mean, I shudder to think had I been involved with gambling, I just, I'd go, oh my God, like I would have been,

I tell you, if I had ever been like a drug dealer, I would have been the worst. I'd have been Nino Brown, I'd have been, you know what I mean? Like I'd have been Tony Montana and it would have been, I just do everything to that level. You know what I mean? Like I'd have been Tony Montana and it would have been, I just do everything to that level. You know what I mean? Like it's very extreme.

I didn't even go to a football playing school. I ended up in the NFL. You know what I mean? It's just a very, very- A whole crazy story in and of itself. Yeah. I'm just, I have no, what I say, I go a hundred and I have no half speed button.

You know what I'm saying? It's kind of like I'm either all in or I'm out. And that's the way it's been. But it happens, like it works for me when it's a good thing and when it's a bad thing. Oh my God. Right. It can tear up everything. Right. It can tear up everything.

Well, I wanna put a pin in the whole pornography thing and return to that, because I wanna talk about the recovery piece there. But as we're working our way through the story, you make this pact with your friend, Darwin, you're gonna tell each other what you find out in the world. But you do have, like, there are a couple mentors who show up. You have this teacher at Flint Academy

who kind of changes your life. He does. First of all, there were two people. One was a coach and one was a teacher. My teacher was my art teacher named Mr. Eichelberg. And he believed in me when I didn't believe in myself. You have to understand like for me, especially in Michigan, there are two Michigans.

There's like the white Michigan, there's the Ann Arbor. Yeah, I'm from the white Michigan. Yeah, you know what I mean? There's Traverse City, it's gorgeous, it's pretty, they're by the water. And then there's Detroit and there's Benton Harbor, there's Flint, there's Muskegon, you know, I mean, cities like that.

And what happens is I didn't, I remember people talking about the Cranbrook Academy of Art, you know, and there were no black people there, you know what I mean? Not when I was a kid, it wasn't- Like Cranbrook is like the epic private school in like kind of near Grosse Pointe, right? Exactly, and it's very white, very- Cranbrook is like the epic private school in like kind of near Grosse Pointe. Exactly.

And it's very white, very- It has this incredible arts program. Oh, incredible. Beyond belief. But I said, I'm not going there. Like, that's not gonna be me. I couldn't see a way in, right? But I love to draw.

And I just was, I love doing my thing. And Mr. Eichelberg looked at me and he literally grabbed all my stuff. He said, Terry, he said, this is the best work I've ever seen. He's like, hey man, I'm the teacher and you're better than me. You could teach the class.

How old were you at the time? Oh, I was, shoot, in 10th grade. I was probably in 10th grade, 14 years old. And he says, man, you have tremendous talent. And I was like, thanks, thanks. And what I would do is back in the day, when the drug dealers took over, all the crack epidemic was hitting hard.

It was like through the 80s. And then hip hop was coming along with it. So what I would do is I would make all these sketches of like Mickey Mouse as a drug dealer, you know, this kind of stuff. And they would print t-shirts. And that was like, I would get $25 for a t-shirt. My t-shirt would be all around the city

because everybody grabbed it. And you see him, he'd have the cell phone and the, you know, all the stuff and the accoutrements, the Fila, you know, the Fila shoes, the Nikes. And you kind of ghettoize these characters. And that was one thing that I did to make money and kind of do that. And I thought that's the pinnacle.

That's all the art's gonna be doing for me. He took my art, photographed it, basically put it all into applications to all these places and got me a scholarship to Interlochen Arts Academy, which is one of the most prestigious arts academies in the world. Like Larry Page, the founder of Google went there amongst everybody.

Jewel went there too. Oh Jewel. I've been there, it's incredible. It's life changing. And he said, Terry, he came up to me. He said, Terry, I got something to tell you. And I was like, what do you mean? He says, I got an announcement.

I got you the scholarship, one to Interlochen and to Western Michigan University. Because by that time, I was right before my senior year and he had got all that stuff for it. Just did it for you. And did it. And I didn't even know. Wow.

And he was like, that's how good I believe you are, man. And you got it. And I just shook like, what in the world? And it changed my life. Dude, to this day, it changed my life. I remember when I went to Interlochen, out, to this day, it changed my, I remember when I go to, went to Interlochen and out of about 500 people, 500 kids that were there for that summer session, it was about six black kids, you know?

And so, and I was part of the arts department and the arts program. And so they, they had this curator from the University of Cincinnati come and I had drawn, they said, it was big on competition. So they were like, draw two drawings and put it on the board but don't put your name on it. So I put it on the board and it was amongst this whole wall full of everyone's drawings, right? And they asked the curator, which one was the best?

And he went all the way around the room and he said, that one, and it was mine. And then he said, so what's the next best? He went all the way around the room, and he said, that one, and it was mine. And then he said, so what's the next best? He went all the way around the room and went to my other one. And that's when it hit me, the moment it hit me. And people were clapping, and they were like, well, that's Terry. And that's when I realized, wow, like, I'm as good as anybody. Because I didn't believe it. You know, I was told, but that was the moment I was like, there is something here.

Like, this is special. This is something that I can count on. Like, this is something I have to invest in, you know. And it changed my trajectory. Because, again, I spent so much time hiding my art. I spent so much time trying not to be a nerd. You know, it was like trying not to be that guy. Cause I would get super excited.

I'm like, oh man, I got these ideas. And they would look at me like, all right, like who do you think you are? And I was like, okay, let me just, all right. Don't worry about it. You know, even family members. Coming from like a who do you think you are culture too. Like don't get so high on your own supply. Totally, totally.

I mean, you have to understand, even my family members were like, who do you think you are? Relax. My father was straight up to, hey man, the white man only gonna let you go so far. That was his, you could put that on a t-shirt. You would have that as a mantra.

We might as well put that in a frame. That was his lived experience. That was his, you could put that on a t-shirt. You would have that as a mantra. We might as well put that in a frame. That was his lived experience. That was it. White man's only going to let you get so far. So stop asking. Like literally stop. And I just couldn't stop. After I had that interlocking experience

and I saw what I could do, I said, I'm not gonna stop. I'm not gonna stop asking. So you end up at Western Michigan, you get this scholarship, an art scholarship to go there. The question then becomes like, why didn't you just go full in on the art thing? And instead you're like, I'm gonna play football. Because it was only $500.

Now understand, you could go to college back in 1987. You could go to college for $3,000. You could. And you could work and go to college. And for three grand, you would pay all your tuition and do your whole thing. Over the years, it turned into $100,000. But back then, the concept of you working and going to college was pretty much normal. So you started to come up with 2,500 bucks.

You can't work and go to college. I paid $100,000 for my daughter's school. I was like, where's she going to get 100 grand from? You know what I mean? It's like, she can't do that. So $500 went a long way, but it wasn't enough to pay for everything. And my mother went into, they went into debt. My father was resisting

the whole time. Like, man, you need to do something else. Go to vocational school, whatever. I was like, look, I want to go to college on the whole thing. And she was like, look, we only have enough money

for one semester. Actually, she said one year. We'll pull together one year. That first $500 helped the first semester. I can help with the other semester, but after that, and what happened is I didn't get a scholarship the first semester. I can help with the other semester, but after that, and what happened is I didn't get a scholarship

that first year. And I begged, I said, just give me one more semester. Now you have to understand too, my brother and sister were lacking and I asked for everything. I literally was asking everybody to contribute and it was selfish. It was like, I can do this, but I asking everybody to contribute. And it was selfish. It was like,

I can do this, but I need everybody to contribute. And it came with a level of resentment. It was a little bit like, hey man, why should we put all this into just you? But I was like, I'm worth it. I promise I'll make it worth it. And they did one more semester. I got a scholarship. And they did one more semester, I got a scholarship. And that was, let me tell you, I that's the one moment I found out and knew that no was negotiable. You know, like, as long as you just keep going, eventually you're going to get what you want

if you just don't stop. And that was a big, big moment for me getting that scholarship. It was incredible. But I still had a lot of, and this is what's so scary. And I write about it in a book. It's just, I had a lot of entitlement, tons of entitlement, because this is another thing.

My mother viewed religion like it was a magic wand. You know what I mean? It was, we name it and claim it. In Jesus name, I command my bills paid. But you do nothing. Not a lot of action. Nothing. Just faith.

To get those bills paid. Like, in Jesus' name, I'm gonna lose 100 pounds. And we die of obesity. But the lifestyle would never change. Nothing would ever change. So, Jesus became a fairy godmother. And I saw this and I was like, but why don't, like, and I realized that I needed to combine,

I realized later that I needed to combine the talk with the action. But up until that point, I was still a little bit of that same, like name it, claim it, like, hey, Jesus got me this. And so I was super entitled. Like I didn't really wanna work. You know what I mean? It was like everything, it was out of my control.

You know what I mean? And I basically, you know, was expecting a handout in a lot of ways. And my whole attitude was just a mess, man. Like to the point where I wouldn't work. You know, after I got the scholarship, I felt like somebody owed me. I had a lot of resentment to the school, even while I was playing. Because I was like, you know, about time, you know.

And it's weird how these little, what you would call victories could actually be the thing that keep you from true success. You know what I mean? Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, from an outsider looking in, it looks like you get this scholarship, it's not enough. So you had the wherewithal to say,

I'm gonna walk onto the football team and turn this into a scholarship and then turn this into an NFL career. That requires a lot of action, right? And a lot of self belief, but that doesn't get done unless you're committed because the odds are stacked against you. Yup, yup.

And I have to say, even with the NFL, this is another thing about the NFL, which was really eye opening, you think it's discipline, but it's not. Someone's telling you when to wake up, they're telling you when to eat, telling you when to work out, they're telling you when to practice

and tell you when to go to sleep. This is why so many athletes have problems when the career is over, because there's no one to tell you when to go to sleep. This is why so many athletes have problems when the career is over because there's no one to tell you this stuff anymore. It's not self-discipline. It's the discipline that someone else is telling you to get everything done. But you're not going to succeed

unless you know how to do this yourself. It's just not gonna happen. And I was left without knowing any of that. I mean, your story of transcending that into an even bigger career is so the exception. But most guys, we think of NFL players, they're ballers, they're making cash, they're living large. Most guys have your experience, which is every week they're vying for their job. You're getting traded. You're on five or six teams for maybe two years. And then you call it a day and it's over.

And you're broke. Most NFL players go broke probably within five years of having their NFL career. And how are you ever going to recapture that kind of excitement about how you're living your life? Nothing's gonna replace that. That's the mistake. See, and that's what's so crazy, I think, is that can you imagine being 30 years old and the best thing that was ever gonna happen to you has already happened?

That's nothing but depression right ahead. It's nothing but depression in the future. There's nothing to look forward to. And then not only that, you fucked it up. And people do not hesitate. And your whole life for 15 years before that was all about getting to that place. So there wasn't a lot of bandwidth

for even thinking about anything outside of that. The fact that you had this gift as an artist and something that you were cultivating all along the way and using as a means of survival is unique and unusual. Yeah, I would go back in the locker rooms once I got cut and I would ask the star players if they wanted their portraits painted. And I would get like five grand a painting

and I would do three paintings and I would get 15 grand and that would get me through the off season. You know, we were poor, man. But when I told, the biggest story that I tell that was my super wake up call. My best friend to this day is a guy named Ken Harvey who used to play with the Redskins. I was his backup.

And when I moved to LA, he helped us move to LA. He gave us a loan and he actually, I wouldn't even call it a loan. It was a gift. He was like, just go on out there. I believe in your talent. He knew I was a good artist. And he was like, go on out there and make your way. And I didn't come out to LA to act.

I was actually trying to get behind the scenes. I saw myself as a creator. I mean, I was trying to do that whole industrial light magic thing. If I was a special effects artist, I had my portfolio in at Disney, at DreamWorks. Yeah, you show them the drug dealer, Mickey Mouse. Yeah, not that one. They get a cease and desist letter.

Yeah, I definitely didn't show them that one, but it was in the portfolio, okay? But what was crazy is that I thought, man, this is gonna be my way. I can actually draw my way into Hollywood. And then Toy Story came out and all hand-drawn animation was over overnight. I remember submitting my artwork for Prince of Egypt. That was one of the last hand-drawn animation movies done. And then when Toy Story hit, bam, it was over.

But I had this pride and entitlement still. And I was going through depression because football was over. It didn't end the way I wanted it to end. You always have these lofty goals, and I was done. We were in this really terrible duplex just trying to make ends meet. I had no money. I was broke. My wife, and this is the thing, my wife the whole time was like, you need a job.

And I was like, come on. I'm a pro football player. It's going to look crazy. I'm not going to be just doing anything, right? And so I kept asking my friend for loans. Ken was giving me a loan. And what was happening, he would give me, he was a gold bug. And he would have all this gold bullion.

Some financial advisor had told him to put money in gold. So it wouldn't, you know, back then it was, that was a big thing a lot of players were doing. Got like a stash of bars. Yeah, it was coins. He would have these rolls of gold coins and they would be stashed around the house. You know what I mean?

And that's the new, back now this cryptocurrency is the big deal. But back then it was gold bullion. And people were always, you know, they were advising people to have some of your money in gold and some of your money in this. He would give me like a stack of coins. And he would say, hey, man, whatever the price of gold is that day, turn it in. And each coin was like 300 bucks. So he'd send me like five or six coins.

And that would get me through the month. hundred bucks so he'd send me like five six coins and that would get me through the month but come six eight six seven eight months down i'm still asking for loans right and we're going broke man and i mean when i say broke we were digging in the couches for like for just money for milk and it was like and my wife was like why don't you get a job, man? And I was like, yeah, but it's gonna work. Because I still had this fantasy of something's gonna come save me, like a Mr. Eichelberg with a scholarship, or this and this, or again, Jesus is gonna save us. You know what I mean?

Don't you know who I think I am? And without me working at all, I was using my mother's technique, right? Claim it. And then one day he said, man, no more loans. Oh, okay, okay, okay. Now, when your voice gets all high like that, you know you're doing something wrong.

I was like, oh, okay, okay. Because you know you overstepped, you know, oh my God. It was the first moment of like, he just pushed back. And I hung up and I was like, how the fuck is he going? Fuck him. My whole attitude was like, he's supposed to be a friend and he's supposed to help me out. And I'm sitting, he knows I'm out here. He knows I'm struggling.

What the hell, man? Fuck you. And then this little voice came to me like, hey, man, why are you mad at the only person who helped you in the first place? Yeah. I went, my family didn't give me any money. Nobody else gave me. He's the one who actually was giving me money.

I wasn't angry at anybody else who told me no. I was only angry at the person who actually hooked me up. Right, which is related to resenting Western Michigan for giving you a scholarship. You see what I mean? It's that weird thing. Same thing. Imagine if you just gave $10 to some person every day and all of a sudden you go, that's it. They would go, where's my 10 bucks? That's where I was at. And I was like, I didn't deserve that. I never earned it. It was something that was a gift. And he was like, no more. And it hit me, man. I said, I'm wrong, man.

But remember, remember, my wife was telling me this the whole time, but because I was a man. And because I viewed myself as more valuable than she was, all her advice was secondary. It was as if my kids were telling me something. Yeah. And because I came at it as this attitude of what masculinity is, you're supposed to already know. So what your wife is saying is, blah, blah, blah, blah.

She was telling the truth the whole time. But it's so crazy. I would listen when Ken said it, it hit me. Another man told me. I was like, oh, damn. And so the next day, I got up like 4.30 in the morning, went to this place called Labor Ready.

I'll never forget. It was in North Hollywood. Five in the morning, I show up with drug addicts, halfway house guys, you know, straight out of prison, trying to make it whole thing homeless. And I show up and what they do at Labor Ready is give you a job for the day and you get paid at the end of the day.

And they sent me to this place called White Cap. And it was somewhere, I forget, I think it was somewhere in the valley, right? Some valley somewhere. And I would go in there and hand me a broom. Now, let me tell you something, man. I thought I was going to pass out. I said, if I start, I was like, man, I was in the NFL.

I think now I got this broom in my hand in a factory. And I'm like, oh, I thought I was just going to fall to the ground. All of a sudden, I took that thing. And man, I remember tears just welling up, like, this might be my life. This might be where I'm at. How did I fall so low? How did I get from the NFL and all the promise of the artwork and the scholarship? I'm sweeping the damn floor in a factory. But this is the craziness about it.

It was so wild. I started sweeping. And all of a sudden, I felt an energy. And I remember people were like, man, hey, man, you look a little familiar. I was like, man, you don't know me. And I pulled my hat down a little further and I kept sweeping. But I got new energy because I was actually for the first time

doing something about my situation. Whereas before I was just sitting and wait. And I was like, oh my God. And so I was like, let me get in the corners and let me do this job. Because another thing is the resisting work is the hard part, but embracing work, the day goes by like that. Well, yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I got it. I mean, it's interesting that you were able to like do that math quickly, like generally it takes a lot longer before you kind of are lured into a place of surrender to it

but that acceptance, like I'm gonna be a worker among workers is an act of humbling yourself, but that's the place where you can begin to grow. I mean, this is like a big, you're sober now, like you understand like that peace, that acceptance and that humility is so important to growth, right? Getting over your own self-aggrandizement and idea of who you think you should be

and how people are supposed to interact with you is a really beautiful thing, right? And as you're telling that story, I'm thinking about your dad polishing his shoes. Like you have so little agency. It's like the surrender, the serenity prayer, right? Like there are so few things that you have control over, but you know what I have control over?

I have control over how I conduct myself with this job today. And I can do it with a sense of gratitude and pride, and that's gonna make it worth it. Oh man, there is a poem that I heard that I just love. It says, and I can't pronounce the name of the guy who wrote it. It's, I'll massacre it.

But it goes, it says, I slept and dreamt of joy. I awoke and realized life was service. I worked and behold, service was joy. I said, wow, whoa, that's it. That's beautiful. It's so beautiful. And I went, that's what was happening. And I did that eight hours.

I went back, got my check. It was like $64. They took out the taxes. I had $48. I put $20 in the gas tank. I gave $20 to my wife for groceries and I had $8 in my hand. And I said, I will never be broke again. Because you say it takes a while, but it happened.

It kind of cracked that egg when I walked in there. The fact that I actually got in the car that morning and went in was, it's like, that's the egg cracking. The sweeping was when it started to sizzle. You know what I mean? Because I was months not moving. But that, I mean, I broke through that thing because I thought everyone was going to look at me and everyone's going to judge me and nobody cared. No, because they're thinking about themselves. Exactly. No one is thinking about you. You know what I mean? No one even knew me. And that was this obstacle, this huge like wall that I felt like I had to climb. And I realized nobody gives a damn about where I'm at. So how long did you do that for? Oh man, probably a week, a week.

And then, well, I went and applied for another, because once I broke that, I went and applied at another place called Western Staff Services. And then I got a job being a, I was filing all the papers that fell over in the Northridge earthquake at the Veterans Administration.

I was like, this is better than sweeping. But I was a filer. And so I did that for a year. But I didn't have to do the hard labor stuff. But let me tell you something, man. As I started to go and I started to, I said, okay, we're here. This is my life now. And I started to grow. I started to grow. Now, mind you, there was still a lot of things I didn't get right, but I started to understand the entitlement piece. It was like, you are not owed anything. And I started to say, you have to work for this. You gotta understand that religious mindset was actually like a lottery mentality. You know what I mean? If we just keep playing God, if we keep rolling on God, it's going to hit for us one day. You know what I mean?

And you're left with nothing. But I realized I can do something. Like you said, it was the serenity prayer. The things that I can control, control it. You know what I mean? But for a long, long time, I thought I couldn't even control what happened to me. Like myself, I couldn't. Like if the wind went right, I thought I couldn't even control what happened to me, myself. If the wind went right, I was going right. And the wind went that way, I was succumbed to that. And I realized I could

walk straight. I could really, really handle my own business in myself. And then I started doing security for the movie sets. And let me tell you something, I love that gig. It's wild when I look back, the first movie I ever did a security for was a movie called Man on the Moon with Jim Carrey, Danny DeVito, Milos Forman was the director. And I was standing and I'll never forget in my cast security shirt. And I would iron my shirts and get batteries in my flashlight. And I would work out and make sure that I looked great. And I was like, I'm in the movie business. I'm in the movie business. You know what I mean?

And I was like, I'm on a set. I'm on this whole thing. And that was the really wonderful thing. And I was happy, man. I'll tell you this. I'll never forget being like, this is my life now. I got settled to this is what it's going to be. And I had no idea what was in store for me.

So you weren't casting your gaze on some goal and like working in your free time to move forward on that. You were just like, this is where I'm at and this is what it's gonna be. But let me tell you, I was working on my free time because what I would do is while I was standing there, like doing that stuff, I would write scripts, write down ideas.

I would go to the library because I couldn't afford to buy the books. I would buy books on Hollywood. And when no one was around, because sometimes they would have me watching areas that they didn't want messed with. So there was nobody. So I would just read the books all day

and just stand there and read the books and just learn about the business and learn about all this stuff. But was it still about being an artist in the business or was the idea of being an actor starting to creep in? Artists, artists, never an actor, never. But you have that experience on set for training day. Right.

Which is pretty cool. But listen, this is even freakier. I was security on a movie called End of Days with Arnold Schwarzenegger. Jeff Dawn, who is Arnold's makeup artist, was walking on the set and he came up to me and I was security guard and I was like, okay, extras go this way, you know, crew is over here.

He looked at me, he said, hey man, you ever act? And I went, oh no, sir, extras go this way. You know, crew is over here. He looked at me. He said, hey, man, you ever act? And I went, oh, no, sir, that's not me. He was like, dude. He said, you got a great look, man. You need to, I'm serious. You really need to try it. He said, I'm a makeup artist. I do makeup and I'm Arnold's guy.

I'm here to tell you, you got a great look. I thought he was hitting on me. So I was like, oh, thank you, sir. Extras are this way and crew is that way. Thank you very much. Flash forward one year later, I'm an hired actor on the movie The Sixth Day with Schwarzenegger. I go into the makeup trailer. There's Jeff Dawn.

And he says, wait a minute, you look familiar. I said, you told me a year ago that I should be acting. And here I am. He said, holy shit. He said, I'm making people rich here. He said, you're kidding. Like you can't even make this up. No, that's crazy.

You can't. And you had the security gig that came full circle too, right? Right. Listen, man, when I look at every opportunity, it's kind of like you realize if you wrote this stuff, it would be contrived. You know what I mean? Truth is stranger than fiction in every way.

And my thing is, you know, from being a security guy and acting, because we were broke. And a friend of mine, because I was bouncing, I had like three jobs. I would do the security gig, you know, bounce. And a friend of mine was like, hey, man, there's this audition for this one show. You should try it. And I went home and I said, you know, so many, I said, that's my wife. I said, so many people are telling me I should try this acting thing.

She said, why not? She said, just go. And I went and you know, so many, I said, that's my wife. I said, so many people telling me I should try this acting thing. She said, why not? She said, just go. And I went and I got it. First thing I ever auditioned for. The Battle Dome thing? Battle Dome, which was American Gladiators on steroids. Okay.

And this is where all the football stuff, everything played out. And my first time as an actor. And now I got the gig and I'm like, I don't know anything about what acting is, right? So I did what I- Careful what you asked for. Let me tell you what I did. I did what I did when the kids would talk about Star Wars and I would go home and start drawing it out

and think about what it is, even though I hadn't seen the movie. What I did was create a character that I said, I don't know how to act, but I know what I want to see. So what I'm going to do is be what I want to see. How would I like to be seen? Like if I was watching, what would I do? And I became the breakout character.

I became this guy named T-Money who was this bad guy from the hood and the whole thing. And I was just vicious and mean. And I would never let the contestants see me because it was a game show where we fought. They put me in a cage, set the end zone fire and rotate the cage. And I would just wrestle three contestants in a row. And it was bloody. I mean, we would leave bleeding every show. It's just metal, skin on metal. It was pre-MMA, so there was no ultimate fighting. No one knew anything about that, but man, if you look at the clips, it was one of the most brutal. The logline for the show was real competition, real pain.

And that's all you need to know. That's it. Right. And we, man, we blasted people. But what was happening is I was learning how it was like grand theater. It was a lesson. It was a whole thing. Like I was, and let me tell you, I can't tell you the nerves. They would put me behind a wall. And every time the wall opened up and the warrior, we would come out. And every time I felt like throwing up every time because I I said, I don't know what I'm doing.

And I wanted to run out of there, but I was like, what am I gonna run to? What am I gonna run to? I'm gonna be back to security, back to sweeping floors? I said, hell no. And I had to go, I had to push. It was the thing where you've walked halfway across the country, what are you gonna do? Turn around? You know what I mean?

Like you gotta keep walking now. Yeah, that imposter syndrome. I mean, cause you don't have, you still have never really done any kind of formal training, right? And you have that story of working on the expendables where you have that same experience where you have to kind of reckon with yourself,

like how am I gonna show up for this? Let me tell you about that. What was wild is because the sense of entitlement creeped back up. I had already done a few movies, done some things. I end up in the expendables and I felt I wasn't getting used enough. Like I'm thinking I'm excited about being an action star

and I'm sitting in my hotel room. And all of a sudden Sly and everybody, they're going on the set and doing their thing. Everyone else has done like 30 action movies each. Right, and I haven't either. And I ain't did nothing. And they're the leading man for like their whole adult lives.

Dude, this is how insidious the attitude of entitlement can be. It doesn't matter. It sneaks right in. Someone gives you a little bit, all of a sudden, you're like, why didn't I get the whole thing? It's so pervasive. But I was sitting in my hotel room and I was so mad and I would go on and I was like, man, instead of just being grateful, I said, I'm going to say my line, I'm going to go home. I got an attitude and it just crept in.

And all of a sudden again, man, it's that little voice. Which is insanity, given that you've been given this gift to be in this movie. Insanity. Yeah. And it's the little voice, the same voice that told me about Ken and like, why are you mad at him?

It was like, hey man, you got this opportunity of a lifetime. What the fuck are you doing? Like, man, go in there and do your best every time. Who cares? And so what I did, it hit me. I said, man, you're right. Like all that alone time,

which I'm very thankful for, really helped with the introspection. Because what happens is if you got too many people around, too many crew, they can really talk you out of your dream. They can really mess you up. Be like, yeah, you know what you should be. Why are you not stop?

And you get those wrong validating opinions and you're off. And that crew will take you right out. And I was alone. And I went to work the next day and I was thankful. I said, man, just, I the next day and I was thankful I said man just I don't care what I'm feeling I said I'm gonna get everything I got and I walked in I said hello to everybody and I was like what's the lines and I started to improv and do and Sly was like man hey man I like you man I'm gonna put you in Jay. You're going to save my life in this movie.

That's what he told me. And that totally changed what happened in that movie. That experience changed because of my attitude change. Right. So he ends up rewriting the ending to make you the hero. It was, dude, and I couldn't believe it. And I realized that was so, like that was another lesson. Same lesson like when I got my scholarship,

it was that lesson that like, wait a minute, man, you can change this thing. Your attitude can never ever waver. You have to have, you can't let entitlement creep in and steal what's yours. Yeah, gratitude being the antidote to entitlement.

Exactly. I mean, you've spoken a lot about gratitude, how you're the most grateful person, but gratitude is a practice. It didn't come to you easily early. So how do you make sure that you're on top of your gratitude? But, you know, I basically, you know, you look at your results, you look at where you are,

you look at what's happening, you know what I mean? And one thing is I always can, this is one thing even like writing a book, journaling, I would used to write my top 10 goals down every day. And I did that for probably 15 years. So I have, you know, the Franklin planner, you remember those? Yeah. I have tons of those, those stacked up. And what helps me with gratitude, I go back to 2001, my Franklin planner and look at those top 10 goals. And I did them all, like way exceeded them. And then I go back to 2005 and I go, oh, I did all that. And then I go into 2008,

I did all that. And it's so, it fills me with the gratitude that I'm supposed to have. Because you know where you were and what was so amazing at that time. Like if I could only make a million dollars a year, you know what I mean? And you go, wow, wow, I've gone way past. You're like, holy God. Right, it's a weird thing. Like I'm really interested in this.

So, you know, in my own case, like it's wild that I'm sitting across from you and that I'm really interested in this. So, you know, in my own case, like it's wild that I'm sitting across from you and that I get to do this thing. And it's not anything that ever found its way into my version of the Franklin Planner. So it's this tension between, yes, you wanna set goals for yourself

and you wanna work hard and show up and be diligent, but also you have to make space for the miracle because you can't imagine what your life could possibly be, right? Like you have to hold that tension with the goals that you're seeking a little bit loosely. So you can make space for stuff that you can't even predict for yourself.

And for me, it always goes back to the inside job. Like how much am I working on myself? Where are my blind spots? Where are the things that, you things that I could be more grateful or work on some other area. And it seems completely disconnected from whatever goal I'm seeking in the external world. But all I know is that when I'm doing that,

when I'm engaged in that process, that's where I'm sort of taking that insurance policy out on greater possibility that I can't quite fathom. Exactly. And I had to find these challenges because you get complacent and it's the comfort zone. And there was a time as an actor, you're like, you're gonna get hired.

It's all good. And you're gonna be on a sitcom or some sort of show. You'll be the fourth lead and it'll be like, and you can just live that life. You know, you'll be that guy on the CSI or whatever. Brooklyn Nine-Nine for the next 20 years. Or another version of that. Yeah, so.

You could just do, but this is the thing. I was like, there's more and I felt too comfortable and it made me weird because I was going, I don't like complacency because I'm a little, I started to study it and start to look at it. And it was like, man, you're getting a little, like, it's almost like getting chubby. You know what I mean? Where you're like, I'm just eating the same thing. And I'm not really, I said, I need a challenge. I need something that's going to excite me really, I said, I need a challenge. I need something that's gonna excite me.

So I started, I forced myself into hosting. Forced by, like, you gotta understand, 240 pound muscular big guy was not the first guy you would think of as a television host. Yeah, but you got the charm and the charisma and the smile and the teeth and the whole thing. Well, now, at the time and the charisma and the smile and the teeth and the whole thing. What now? Yeah. At the time, people were like, does he?

I know him from Everybody Hates Chris. I know him from this kind of thing. And so I remember going in and doing an audition for Who Wants to Be a Millionaire, the daily version of that. And let me tell you, I could tell you that it was actually a failure, okay? That was not a good look because here I was on a game show,

the daily version of a show that'd been on TV for years. And I'm this character who talked way too loud for the daytime audience. Hey, how you guys doing? Yay, yay. So I overcompensated and it was a little much for that audience because the people were like, well, I'm drinking my tea and he's screaming at me. Stop screaming.

All the notes were like, stop screaming. And here I was, and I would do this daily thing. I did 360 episodes in a year of Who Wants to Be a Millionaire while I was doing Brooklyn Nine-Nine. So I would fly to the East Coast, do the show, and then do like, we would do almost seven episodes in a day. Like all day, I was exhausted. Then fly back and go right to Brooklyn Nine-Nine.

But I said, I have to get this. Like it was hook or crook. I said, I'm going to learn this. And it gave me an opportunity to do it and let me tell you it didn't go well because they fired me the first year I mean when the year was over they were like and they went with Chris Harris

and I had to understand I was like oh man it just didn't work out so there I was I said I gave I put my heart I had actors are like why are you doing this they would come up to me and they would say Terry like man you could be doing this? They would come up to me and they will say, Terry, like, man, you could be doing this acting. Why don't you do some more movies? I said, but what I saw was the future.

I saw I got tired of waiting to be picked. And I said, if I learn this skill, then I don't have to be. I could choose. I can choose. You know, there's not a lot of people like when you look at big superstars or people, just charm doesn't mean you can host. It doesn't mean you can do all that stuff. It's a whole other thing. I said, I have to learn this.

And man, what was so wild. And to this day, this is to your point about leaving room. I'm hosting the number one talent show in the world with fourth year. And I look at this like, this was never on the list. I didn't know it would go this far. I was just trying to secure a future, hopefully do some things and you know, that would allow me to pivot in different ways.

But never did I see this. Yeah, it's crazy. It's crazy. It's the biggest show in the world. And I gotta tell you, I will admit to being somewhat dismissive of the whole host thing. Like, oh, come on. That's not like real acting.

That's not, you know, they're reading off the prompter and the whole thing. But I just had to host an all day conference in Miami. I do a fair amount of speaking. I was like, how hard can it be? You know, and I go there and I'm like, holy shit. Like I'm responsible for holding the energy for this group of, you know, this huge auditorium of people for like an eight hour stretch. Like I better get my shit together. Ended up like

rehearsing for eight hours, wrote a 35 page script and, you know, had to go out in between each speaker and come up with jokes on the fly and figure out. And I ended up leaving that experience, A, with just a huge amount of respect for how difficult that job is and how specific that skillset is and how different it is from typical public speaking and also any other kind of like performance oriented thing that I'd ever done.

But also it's completely thrilling. Like it's so gratifying. Like, cause you are like, you have to have these people in your hands, you know? And if when you're in your kind of flow and you know that you're firing on all cylinders, it's a pretty cool thing. Let me tell you, you know what I like to call it?

They give me the keys to NBC. Yeah. I get the keys. I mean, it's the biggest show in the world. Wait, and it goes ding, ding, ding. And you have NBC in your hand. There's only you, and everyone's looking at you. And it's like those doors open, you walk out, and you are representing everything.

You're representing 30 Rock. You're representing Simon Cowell. You're representing every act. You're representing what the show means. It's been on for 17 years. And you have it in your hands. And it's like, and it reminded me of the NFL. You know what I mean?

It was that thrilling, like the ball could go anywhere, and it's live, by the way. Live, so anything can happen. Right. I'll never forget, the prompter goes out. It happens. You still have to keep the show going and you have to explain the rules because it's rules. There's things that people want to try to win money.

You can't misinterpret it. People get sued. It's crazy. It's that pressure. And then the prompter goes out and you still have to know what you're talking about. And it's like, oh my God. And dude, I go home, I'm exhausted.

Every fiber of my being is exhausted and I'm happy. Like I just played in the Superbowl. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah, because you're the glue. I mean, the panelists have to weigh in on the acts, but they're not responsible for keeping the show moving. Not at all.

Yeah. I go to them for an answer. I give them a question, but then I'm responsible for bringing the act out. Not at all. Yeah. I go to them for an answer. I give them a question, but then I'm responsible for bringing the act out, introducing these guys, explaining the rules to the public. And I am, and it's so thrilling.

I can't, like you said, dude, and then you think the place is full of, you know, probably what, 6,000 people in Adobe. And then you turn around and say, no, it's really a hundred million people watch. That kind of thing is like, holy yeah. We had Oz Perlman in here the other day. Do you remember him, the mentalist who ended up,

I think he ended up third, maybe five years ago or something like that. Do you remember that guy? He did that, he's a mentalist. Yes, the mentalist, yes. I remember him. He was pretty cool. He was screwing with our heads. I know, it's unbelievable the quality of talent

and all the stuff that you get to see. But I'm gonna tell you this, every act that comes through reminds me of me. It reminds me of being in Flint, Michigan, dreaming of being somehow involved in entertainment, no matter what it is. and dreaming of being somehow involved in entertainment, no matter what it is. And everybody had huge, huge obstacles to get to that point. Huge.

And a lot of people say, well, yeah, who gets a sob story and whole thing, but there's not an entertainer that doesn't because it's all rejection. All of it. You just have to find ways to deal with your rejection. So I look at these acts and I'm their bodyguard. I'm their protector.

I'm the person that gives them what they need on the way out. And then I'm the person that counsels them when they come back out from the audience. You know what I mean? And it's like, if it doesn't go well, I let them know that this is just the beginning. And if it goes great, I let them know,

you got to come back next week with more. And it reminds me of me. And also the people that are successful, I really, really try to pull something and learn something from them. And it's just a beautiful relationship. I learned a lot doing that show man because you meet so many different people

and it's one of the highlights of my life but it really really was one of those things that I had to get

out of my comfort zone I had to find something new and I'll be honest with you I don't know what's next I've been designing furniture right and my wife is like

why are you doing this I'm like I don't know I just next. I've been designing furniture. Right. And my wife is like, why are you doing that? I'm like, I don't know. I just, I need a challenge. You gotta feed the artist though, right? I have to. Are you painting still? I'm painting, I'm drawing, I'm sketching, still designing. I'm in the fourth iteration of my collection with Bernhardt,

but there's something else coming. Like right now I've been challenging myself to do more dramatic things. I did a stint on a show called "'Tales of the Walking Dead," which is not funny at all. I love that challenge. I see myself doing, but this is another thing, man, writing these books and being so vulnerable

and putting my story out there, it's like moving from fiction to nonfiction is what I like to say. It's literally the next step. What I feel in my career is beyond being an actor, but being a person of interest, you know, where let's talk about things together, you know, because this is another thing like being a host. It's almost like being able to have conversations with people and learn from people and tell your story is the only way we're going to get by problems. This is why you and I are sitting here right now. It's because this is nuance. And what we are witnessing right now is the death of nuance. No this is nuance. And what we are witnessing right now

is the death of nuance. No one is talking. Everyone is screaming at each other. Just look at any daytime talk show. It's all yelling at each other. And at the end of the day, it's like, we showed you pow, mic drop and we'll see you tomorrow. And I'm going. It gets the hits, pow, mic drop, and we'll see you tomorrow. And I'm going.

It gets the hits, it charges the dopamine, but ultimately everybody as a human being has that deep desire for connection and for nuance. And I think that's a big reason why podcasts have grown in popularity. People would tell me all the time, like, you gotta make these things 30 minutes. Like who's gonna listen to you guys banter on forever? But it's been quite the opposite

because I think people are starving for it. You know, honestly, it is our version of the campfire and we need that campfire if we wanna solve our problems. And the solution to our problems lies in appreciation of nuance. And you can only get to the nuance when you take the time to our problems lies in appreciation of nuance and you can only get to the nuance when you take the time to sit down and calmly, you know, talk through stuff that I think is important, you know?

And we haven't even gotten to like the main thing that I wanna talk to you about, which is like D-Day. Yeah. You know, you being this really successful person who on, you know who from an exterior view had it all going on, inside you're a very different person. Ultimately you have this bottom, this reckoning that becomes a catalyst for all the growth

and the expansion that you're able to kind of exude and speak to now. Look, this is so crazy and it hit me so hard that there I was, I was extremely successful. I mean, living a life, living a dream. Like I said, going through my Franklin planner and realizing I hit every last one of my goals and I was miserable. and realize that I hit every last one of my goals and I was miserable. And my family was miserable and no one liked me. And I said, that can't be it.

There has to be another level of success. And what I discovered is that I wasn't real. I had created an image. I had created Terry Crews, you know, with a restricted, you know, TM, trademark. You know what I mean? It was like, it wasn't real. But everybody loved it. Everybody loved it.

It was so good. It was so pure and amazing. Everybody loves Terry Crews. But my wife knew. I knew. Because the problem is I never told my wife about my pornography addiction. And back in 2010, we had a day called D-Day. And it was wild because that's the day I confess to basically going to a massage parlor, getting a hand job and cheating on my wife 10 years earlier, which was back in 2000.

And, but I vowed when that happened, I mean, it was probably the darkest day of my life because that's where my addiction had brought me. And I was just like, man, I never thought, again, it's just like those good goals that happen. You're like, I never thought I'd be here. But those bad habits brought me to, I never thought I would be here. And it was the hardest, I just bowed. I would never tell anybody, I vowed. That's my secret to take to the grave.

I'll never say it. Yeah, the big fear being, if you actually told your wife who you were, that she would leave. And let me tell you the biggest trick about that and the biggest lie. And the thing is, is that what we're really searching for is intimacy as men.

Again, I'm not gonna speak for women, but I know for me, intimacy is what I need. But the problem is if you never tell who you really are, you can never find true intimacy. And this is where you could be as a guy going from sexual experience, just sex, sex, sex, sex, and never finding anything that's meaningful because you're not revealing who you are. You know what I mean?

And it's like, I had this image that my wife had married and what she thought was her life, but it was really not. And she, but she was always suspicious. So she would always ask me, and I remember because of my guilt, I would start an argument just to get out of conversations. Distractions. Right. And suspicion is bred from lack of trust. And that kind of running, oh my God, look at that. And I'm out of here.

There was a wall. And every time I used pornography, it created a wall between us. Now, this is the thing. And, you know, it's different if two couples are into it and they want to do that whole thing. Well, then there's your transparency right there. But to be hiding something is a whole nother matter. And the way I like to phrase it sometimes, because guys, a lot of times don't understand it if they feel like man you know man we're guys so you know we enjoy looking at women you know what can it be what kind of problem

but the the thing i like to say is imagine if um if your wife was taking money from another guy and didn't tell you what immediately guys go what are you talking about? Just imagine if some guy was giving your wife money, there's a thousand dollars or two thousand dollars and you find out for three years she's been taking money

from another guy. Well, we didn't have sex. We didn't do anything. But you know, you know, I'm a woman. I need money. Guys would be like, hell no.

No, not if you're going to be, if you consider yourself my wife. No, we're not going to do that. In fact, that's unacceptable. In fact, what are you doing? And the flip side is exactly how your wife feels. It's like, why are you getting that from someone else? I was supposed to be that.

That's what at least was my wife's attitude. And just to help people kind of frame the picture, I had had this thing where I was more valuable than the women in my life simply because I was a man. First of all, sports culture told me that. Black culture told me that. Male culture told me that. Everything in my life said, it's your way or the highway.

Hey, man, I didn't love my family. I own my family. And you're supposed to do what I say. I wasn't really listening to you. It was blah, blah, blah. But a true equal can come to you and you have to respect what they say. A true equal can challenge you on your beliefs

and on your moves and say, I got a problem with that, Terry, but I wouldn't even allow that because you're not an equal to me. So what was the reckoning? How did that change? Well, first of all, she left. I have no problem with that, Terry, but I wouldn't even allow that because you're not an equal to me. So what was the reckoning? How did that change? Well, first of all, she left.

When I told her, because this is the thing, D-Day went like this. What is it I don't know about you, Terry Crews? Is what she asked me. Because, and I was on the phone with her for like two hours, just like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But she's like, there's something, you're something you're doing, I don't know.

It was, again, you see that woman getting some money, you're like, where'd you get that? Sometimes, you know, two and two equals four, it's not adding up, something's up. And I just, I was tired. I was tired of lying. I was tired of being done. I was actually done with the relationship. I was done with the marriage. It was one of the things like, why even keep putting up with this? Because first of all, Hollywood didn't care if I lose my

family. I'd get more movies. They'd be like, hey man, good good you got no wife to come home to you can do three more projects and she's the only one challenging you only one cause Hollywood doesn't care porn shoot no big deal in fact we'll get you some girls and I literally

was done with my marriage cause I was feeling like again back to entitlement, but also not appreciating, no gratitude for what she's done. But I had moved into this, I'm Terry Crews though, because that's the image.

And I told her, and she just, I can't. To me, I was like, what happened 10 years ago? And to be honest, I was a little bit like, where are you going to go? and she just I can't like to me I was like what happened 10 years ago and to be honest I was a little bit like where you gonna go like you know I got all this I'm doing good oh man

the attitude was horrendous horrendous and she was just like I can't believe like to her it happened the same day. But to me, I'm like, it was 10 years earlier. She said, I'm done. She said, don't come home.

And I said, okay, I won't. Fine. I said, go. I said, I can just go find another woman like that. So whatever you want to do, you can do. And she was like, I hung up and my marriage was over. And then that same damn voice, that little voice, the one that talked to me way back in the day about Ken Harvey, the little voice that was talking to me all this time. It said, man, what if it's not her?

What if it's you? I said, no, it can't be me. It can't be me. Look, first of all, I'm doing everything I'm supposed to do. I'm successful. I'm successful. I have done this, this, and this. And the fact that, look at where I came from.

I'm a black man. I was poor. I made it all the way up here. I did all these things. In fact, I got a high sex drive. You know what I mean? So, you know what I mean? I got a little more testosterone than an average man. I mean, I had totally made that thing up and I was all in the image. And all of a sudden it said,

but it's you though. And the question I used to frame, I would frame the question about all this stuff. I would think about my wife and I'd be like, why didn't she believe me? And in an instant, that question changed to, why am I lying? Same context, but one was blaming her and the other one was like, this is me. I'm lying. I've been lying the whole time. You did lie. You could say you weren't, but you were

lying the whole time. And then I knew, I said, man, I'm in trouble like I started to have a crisis and when I say that it was like I didn't care about Hollywood anymore I didn't care about like the first is like I'll keep moving and I'll just give do more movies but you're like but I don't care about doing movies it was a crisis when I say a crisis it was like I don't care about anything I'm. When I say a crisis, it was like, I don't care about anything. I'm done, like I'm a farce. Yeah, it feels like porn opened up the door, but what it really was was like an existential reckoning with the fact that you've been living some version of a double life for a very long time

until it just became so unsustainable and exhausting that you had to confront it. First of all, that's the way all these things work, all these vices. Some people make so much money they can gamble until they can't, until they're taking the house. Some, they drink all day until you get, your liver can't take anymore. Yeah, it works until it's not working anymore.

Until it's not working. Yeah. That's what my friend Steven Tyler said, he said, all addictions work until they stop working. Yeah. Uh-oh. And then they don't work for a while until they reach your pain tolerance.

And you're probably a guy who can deal with a lot of pain, right? So as the elevator's going down, the excuses start to stack up until it just becomes so unmanageable that you have to like throw your hands up and give up. You know, the thing about excuses thing, man, and I learned it's funny,

because excuses are valid for a minute, but then it's like an expired credit card, man. You running around and you keep trying to plunk that thing down and you get declined. You know what I mean? It's kind of like every excuse does not work. And listen, when I got declined by my wife, I put the credit card down like, hey, here you go. It's like, no, that's expired, man.

But responsibility gives you a whole new credit limit. The minute you start taking responsibility, you start to build that credit back up. You start doing all this stuff. So I went and I went to counseling. And now this is another thing is in black culture where I grew up, you did not get therapy. It was seen as you can't cure crazy.

If you're crazy, you can't cure it. You know, every family had an uncle that they would lock in the basement or somebody upstairs who just wasn't all together. And you just go to church and pray about it. That's it, you pray about it and you just, you gotta deem it. That was what it was saying,

so-and-so's gotta deem it. And that was it, But there was no cure. And if you get that mumbo jumbo and you, all of a sudden you're going to be more confused. And how I learned this is that what was so crazy is my father went to a psychologist to deal with his alcoholism and the psychologist killed himself.

I was a teenager and I was like, that's it. Wow. You're right. He jumped off a bridge and I went, yeah, they're all crazy. And I said, and so I had this, I was, this thing, like, I'm not going to get near that. And, but that was the moment when I said, I went to my, I called my friend in the middle of D-Day and he said, man, he said, I can't tell you you're gonna get your wife back, but you need to get better for you. Now, it was a strange concept.

I gotta explain this because everything I did was to get something. Like every bit of work, I was doing good so that I can get money or working hard so I can get this. But there was never a realization of doing, of getting, of just doing something for your own sake, just being good to be good, just to be better.

Because again, that's internal. That's something that's, it was always external rewards. But he said, you need to get better for you. And I was like, what? I would do whatever to get sex or do need to get better for you. And I was like, what? You know, I would do whatever to get sex or do whatever to get money. But it didn't work. Even the working out, even all of that

was so you could front or show up and look a certain way. Yes. And it was, again, you worked out so you could show people I'm not to be messed with. You know, that kind of thing. Or I was back when I was young and then you show out to just show how great you are.

You know what I mean? But just to do it for me anyway. And I went to rehab. First day in rehab, I was like, oh, dude, I'm in the wrong place. This is not me. Where did you go? Did you go to like Meadows or someplace?

No, I went to a place called Psychological Counseling Services in Phoenix, Phoenix, Arizona. And I'm sitting in that room with about 10 other people and they're all talking to issues and I'm going, and the whole thing, it was a little bit like, this was the same thing like going to labor ready, where I was like, everybody's going to care.

Everybody, but everybody had their own damn issues that they had to deal with. And so, and I was thinking, everybody's going to know it's me and everybody. But I said, damn it. I got to go. And listen, and I did not go to get my wife back. My whole thing, I really knew my marriage was over. I just said, well, I'm just going to have to try to get myself together. And when I did, and the first day I was like,

this is not me. And then all of a sudden they were like, hey man, was your dad an alcoholic? I was like, yeah. They said, was your mom very religious? I was like, oh, how'd you know that? And wait, and they started reading my mail. Like it was all these things that started to come down. And I was like, oh my God, that is me. This is me. And it just, dude, it changed everything. Like I went on this journey and I'm still on it for 12 straight years. I probably, like every time I'm in the gym,

I have an audio book going about cognitive therapy, about thinking, about re-examining all the things you know. There's one book that I love. It's like, You Are Not So Smart. It's a book that totally revamps the way you think things are and they're not. And then there's another book that followed it called You Are Now Less Dumb. That's the graduate. Yeah, it was so good.

And so I started to think my way through life instead of, because remember now, women, this is one reason I think women can tend to be a lot smarter than guys because they don't push their way through things. They have to think their way through life. You know what I mean? So they know, they're a lot more intuitive.

Whereas, hey man, within the male culture, if you got the biggest bench press, you run the business. You don't know anything about inventory. You don't know anything about that. But if you're the strongest guy, everybody treats you like, if you're super tall, you're a basketball player, you are the king of the world. And that's the way, those are the operations.

That's the way we operate. And I had to start thinking for the first time, for real real about who I want to be, where I'm at, and what was happening in that whole course. I had to raise my life, like totally dump truck it, man. Like I started all over from the beginning. And I went on a 90-day sex fast. Yeah. I went on a 90-day sex fast. Yeah.

Like, and I'll never forget because we went 75 days the first year and my wife was willing to come back in. She's like, well, we don't have, she said, I'll let you back in and the whole thing and we'll be good. But the next year, it always got me. I said, we went to 75. I said, we got to do it again.

So the next year I went on another fast and I made it the whole 90 days because I said it was so important to me because this was the thing, man. Remember, I had let my body and these things overcome what I wanted to do. So if I wanted sex, I would get it. If I wanted to eat, I would do it.

If I didn't, because I was like, I have no control. But I said, I have to control these things. Like, and if that means fasting these things. And so I actually haven't had breakfast for 12 years. I've been intermittent fasting since that period. We're gonna get into that. But like, yeah, that practice of, I mean, it's really,

it's powerful and empowering because it puts you into contact with the truth of the behavior. Like you, it's not until you stop doing it that you realize that you start to understand the reasons why you were doing it. Like that you were doing it to check out emotionally or to act out or to serve some kind of, you know,

internal fucked up need that you have. Because when you're in the process of doing it, it's so normalized, right? Like I know I went to treatment back in 98 and it was suggested to me that I take a year celibate after leaving treatment because my relationship with the opposite sex was so convoluted with my alcoholism because I was so insecure around the opposite sex.

Everything was like a mess. And the only way to get clear was to put that distance between those two things for an extended period of time. And it was so empowering because then it's just you and you, and you gotta deal with that shit, right? And there's no escape from it.

And I learned a ton. And then when the year ended, I met my wife and that was that. Hey man, well, you know, that's how I felt. I felt like I met my wife after that. That was so crazy. We've been married for 20 years at that point. And going through that, I felt like I met my wife, which is nuts.

That's funny you would say that because, you know, there was a time in our lives, man, when we were 12. And you have a crush on a girl or whatever and you pull a flower out. You weren't thinking about sex. I didn't even know what it was. I just was like, all I could think about was like, I appreciate this girl. I appreciate who she is. She's beautiful because

she's just her. It was beyond what her body looked like. There's a feeling of care. I care for you. I want to see you win. Like, I care for you. I want to see you win. I want to see you succeed.

And it had nothing to do with sex. And that's exactly what I felt for my wife with those 90 days. It became, our conversation started to talk about, it wasn't about what was going to happen at the end of the convo. You know what I mean? Because it's funny how over the years with porn and different things,

it was like, all right, well, you know what that means. We had a good convo. Now you got to do something for me. It was the tit for tat. Yeah. But when you have a real conversation with no expectations, all this getting,

but it was all giving, dude, it was a whole nother level. And it allowed our relationship to be rebuilt. And beyond that, you start to reckon with your anger and with all of these other, we started this conversation talking about unhealthy masculinity. It really helped you unpack all these other, you know, we started this conversation talking about unhealthy masculinity. It really helped you unpack all these other aspects

of your life and, you know, traumas that you experienced as a young person to, you know, get whole with all of that. I mean, that's really the broader message than just, again, it's like the porn that brings you in the door. Yeah. But ultimately the gift was so much more expansive. Again, the phrase I use is cracking that egg. You can't, it starts to spill

or you hit that first domino, and the dominoes just keep going. It was like, oh my God. The road gets narrower. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I mean, I was very violent, man. I mean, there's a long list of people who Terry Crews has knocked out, okay?

Which was crazy. I start the book out talking about a time in Pasadena. We were headed to the longest yard wrap party. And this guy, I felt disrespected, my wife, while we were waiting for our car. And man, I put him on his head on the concrete, dude. Like it was overkill, you know, in every sense of the word, you know what I mean?

It was like, whoa. And the police came and it's a crowded, you know, bunch of people. It was Christmas, people were Christmas shopping. Whoa, and the police came and it's a crowded, you know, bunch of people, it was Christmas, people were Christmas shopping. It was packed in downtown Pasadena. And man, thank God, thank God, this man, this older white man came out of the crowd and said, I saw this whole thing

and they were just waiting for their car and they were bothered by this gentleman. So, but the police came with their hands on their guns, ready to arrest somebody. And my wife was shook. She was like, Terry, we went home after all that. And she said, you have to promise me you'll never do that again. You have to promise. She said, I'll be okay, but you have to promise me. And I was like, what are you talking about? I said, I'm a man. Like, this is what men do. This, I said, I'm a man. Like, this is what men do. This, I said, first of all,

I can't make that kind of promise because when somebody needs their ass whooped, I'm going to be there to deliver it. Because I had no problem with that. You know what I mean? I mean, but dude,

she was like, Terry, she said, imagine, like at the minimum, we could get sued and lose everything. And at the maximum, the police could shoot you. Go to jail. Yeah, exactly.

Like it's a couple of things. I mean, first of all, this is how the book opens. So you open with a pal and short of the white guy telling the white cops that they should be going after the other black guy, not you, the black guy. I mean, that's a whole conversation right there, right? Yes. But also it's impossible to read the first few pages

of your book and not think about the whole Will Smith thing. I mean, the parallel between that episode and what the world just witnessed, you know, is pretty spot on there. Listen, man, it was so crazy. I got calls out of the blue from everybody who was involved with me writing the book. They were like, it's like you wrote this, like you knew it was going to happen. I was like, man, I was Will Smith.

That's all I can say. Talking about empathy. I mean, first of all, I did way worse than what Will's done, okay? You just didn't do it in front of 100 million people. Right, it just wasn't on camera. But when you look, listen, you know what? Because the thing and the incident that you share in the book, what really tipped it over is when the aggression

was directed at your wife, not at you. That's what really set you off. Totally. I mean, and I was like, you're gonna die today. Like I said, it was overkill. It was to the point of like, I could have killed this guy. I mean, when you put somebody on their head on the concrete, a lot of things can happen.

And it wasn't, she just was shocked at the level of violence. So then what is the message with Will Smith or like, what do you take from that? Or what is it that you wanna say about how that went down? First of all, I'm gonna tell you this, and this is the overall message for me, is that there was many, many times I was Will Smith,

but the time that saved me was the time I was Chris Rock. And my agent put his hands, literally grabbed my nuts in a crowded party, a Hollywood party. Again, it's no different than the Vanity Fair party or anything,

a big Hollywood event, Adam Sandler's party. The head of the motion picture department at William Morris Endeavor, this guy, Adam Bennett, gets high. I don't know what he's on. First of all, I know drunk. This wasn't drunk.

He's licking his tongue out at me. He's acting all crazy. I'd never met him before. I heard about him. He's Sly Stallone's agent. He's Eddie Murphy's agent. He's Sandler's agent. He's head of the motion picture department.

Head. The man. Okay. The number one agency in the world. And he comes over to me and I'm like, I stick my hand out like, how you doing? He grabs my nuts with my wife right next to me in a crowded party.

And basically, I'm the only black guy in the party by the way everybody else is hollywood royalty right i pushed him back like what are you doing man i'll push him into other people it's so crowded i'm like get away from me man what are you hey he's laughing he comes back again i push him again and i'm like, get away from me, man. What are you? Hey, he's laughing. He comes back again. I push him again. And I'm like, what are you doing? What the fuck are you doing? I'm getting angry just thinking about it all over again. And he starts to laugh. I'm like, ah.

Now I think, is there other people in on this? Like, here I am, the only black man in this party. And other people are there. Other people saw it. There are people who would never say anything, but they were right there. And they were all looking like, and I thought they were in on it. You start to think, am I the joke here? Y'all making, like, was this planned?

Because it's just too bizarre. Is this jackass or something? And y'all think this shit is funny? And I said, I'm gonna kill this dude. Now, that's the next thought. I was gonna put my fist through this guy's head. And all of a sudden, I went, I don't have to do that. I don't have to do that anymore.

And I looked at my wife and you talk about years of therapy already where you got to understand in the black community, if someone was to call you nigga, the rule is to destroy them, like punch them, bite them. Because if you don't, you quote unquote, let them do it. So the whole rule is that, but once you examine that whole thing, I had to examine it and I said, but there are no niggers. It's no such thing. Am a no so it's not an insult in fact i can just let it go and count it to ignorance but the problem is and where the real problem would lie is if I really felt I was a true nigger, all the insecurities, all that stuff would pop up and then I would attack. Same thing here. I'm not interested in this dude. This is not anything I want. So why would I get even get up? Why would I have to kill this man?

But I did have to do something and I remember looking at my wife and she said she looked at me I grabbed her hand and we left the party we got in the car now mindset I'm trying to tell you I had a thought of driving right back through the club like terminator you know what I mean but I went home and I couldn't believe I was degraded, dehumanized, it was emasculation of the highest degree because here this was my own agency. And then I didn't know who was in on it. Like that was another thing.

I was like, is this Sandler's thing? Is this, you know, I mean, you know, your mind just starts to race. Yeah. Like what is happening here? That's an assault. What's interesting, I mean, look, we all read about this and are aware

of kind of what happened on some level, but in the book, like, I don't know how many pages you devote to it. It's like 15 pages. I mean, you go through the whole thing and I learned much more about how it all transpired. And one of the really interesting aspects of this story is like not knowing who to trust.

Like, can I tell my manager? Can I tell this other agents at the same agency? What is the head of the agency gonna say or do or not do? And it's just all, you know, basically the peril with which you have to, you know, figure out what the right moves are because your career and your future is on the line, depending upon what you say or don't say.

But think about the Academy Awards. Chris was all by himself. Nobody ran over to him. He was standing there, totally beat up, face still red, still stinging. And no one went over to him. They went to Will. They went over there to Will and said, are you okay? Are you all right? No one checked on Chris. That's where I was. I'm sure Chris was like, who do I trust now? Where am I?

What the hell was that? But imagine had Chris fought back, it would have descended into chaos. Oh my God. It had been the end of Hollywood as we know it. And I think he saved everything. See, that was that measure of composure for him to even joke about it, for him to just keep his cool and just relax in that moment. I thought that's tough.

Like that's the essence of true toughness. Again, the joke, should he have said it? No, I don't think, it was a bad joke. It wasn't even funny, but he didn't deserve that. He didn't deserve that at all. And, but I can tell you this, I was Will at one time. Were you out of control?

And wait, all that had to do, that was going on in Will. Like that was going on in his, you saw there was more going on there than that joke. Oh, of course. You know what I mean? It was like watching this man. It's like the Zapruder film.

You could break this thing down. But that was me. Like all that stuff that's going down, I didn't beat that guy down for disrespecting my wife. It was something else. You don't pick a guy up and slam him on his head on the concrete for that. It was something in me. It didn't have anything to do with him. And there's many, many times I would just smack people and do stuff because I had this inner anger that I did not control. And it's so vicious and so crazy and insidious. And it sneaks up on you at the least.

Like, I promise you, Will did not plan that out. Of course not. Okay, it just hit him. It's like going into a blackout. Blackout. And you knew when he was like, get, yo, my wife's name out your fucking mouth. I mean, we were all like, holy, this dude is lost.

He's having a meltdown. But I knew that guy. That was me. You couldn't calm me down after stuff like this. And this is where my wife had to come and say, look, man, if you ever do this, man. And see, then I have to tell everybody because what was wild, because in my community, in black community,

they were like, you should have knocked the guy out. Sure. That's the rule. And you're like the prototype alpha. How could this happen to you? I mean, there were a million takes on this whole thing. But can I ask you this? Would you have believed my story

had I had knocked the guy out? I don't think anybody would. I just, you're at a party. Terry Crews knocks out the head of the motion picture department because he what? Terry probably had some drinks. He probably didn't. I don't drink. They'd be like, oh, no. Yeah, right. Yeah. He probably didn't. I don't drink. They'd be like, oh no.

Yeah, right. Yeah, you just decided maybe they did something you didn't like. But there's that mean thug, Terry, we've been waiting on. Because I got a whole record of you beating up people. Yeah, conversely, what would have happened

had Will Smith walked on stage and just said, hey, Chris, you know I love you, but that was out of line, you know, and just handled it with composure, he would have been this unbelievable hero. Imagine if he had put it in his acceptance speech. Right.

Like what Chris said about my wife, man, you know, it was over the line, but I'm here to accept my expectation. And it would have been a hero. But let me tell you what Hollywood's about. And this is where me and Hollywood have always been at odds. The head of William Morris Endeavor

told me he could get away with it. I had a private meeting with him. It's all in the book. And I said, hey man, you don't get to molest the clients and go to work the next day. He said, yes, he can. And I said, hey, man, you don't get to molest the clients and go to work the next day. He said, yes, he can. And he said, what I'm going to do is take his title and suspend him for 30 days.

And I said, man, hey, man, you're going to give him a vacation? What are you talking about? You can't molest the clients. What are you doing? It was the same as the standing ovation for Will. And I went, and I said, dude, what are you talking about? I handed him a letter. I grabbed his letter that he wrote demanding that Mel Gibson be kicked out of Hollywood.

He wrote it for the Huffington Post for anti-Semitic remarks. I said, look, you said Mel Gibson needs to be kicked out of Hollywood forever for these remarks. But anti-Semitic remarks, as reprehensible as they are, they are not illegal. What your man did is a crime. And you're telling me it's different. He said, it's different, Terry. I couldn't believe it, dude. I just said, and that's the rule.

See, the rules of Hollywood is call it out until it happens to you. You know what I mean? Cancel anybody else but us? No, no, not at all. Because we meant well. Well, and then you pursue, you file criminal charges, even knowing like that's probably not gonna go anywhere.

And then the civil suit, which ultimately doesn't look like it's gonna go anywhere until a couple other dudes come out of the woodwork. That's right. And then it's a whole different thing. A whole different story. And some females, guys and girls, it was crazy. But if I hadn't gone public,

it would have never brought the real, the people out. And they wanted to join my case privately without saying their names. I don't think I respected that. But the thing was is that they were willing to go to the mat for this guy. And it was so foul and so corrupt because you got to understand about Hollywood. I mean, like Harvey Weinstein would lead, you know, all these women in Hollywood

parties at his house while he was raping them. You know, and this is the thing you're talking about. One reason I wrote the book was that I noticed that there was things where success is the warmest place to hide. It's a great place because no one calls you on your shit. No one, because you're the man. You're Will Smith. You're the head of the motion picture department.

you're the head of the motion picture department. And when what we need, because we talk about values, we can say values, but unless you actually act on those values, it means nothing. Ultimately, money and power rule. And in the case of this Adam Bennett thing, it wasn't until money and power were threatened

that you were actually able to move the needle. And what's interesting is that typically in these cases, then it then becomes about how can we discredit the person going after us. But because you had done all that inside work and kind of owned up publicly and privately to the stuff that they would have been able to hang over you, there was a freedom with that, right?

Where you were like, come at me. That was, again, when you're talking about gratitude, I'm beyond thankful for that D-Day, for that moment when I saw myself as I really was. Because if I hadn't, you could ask me, where do you think you'd be? Oh my God. Running, hiding. Imagine, I would have had no strength to do anything, to even come up against something like that, had I had secrets like that, because they would have found stuff.

Well, and had you not unpacked those secrets, you would have cold cocked the guy. Right, and- But you might not have even been at that party to begin with, because you're- See, we can keep going, you know what I mean? It's kind of like, it could have been over before that, it could have been, where, but where,

the question really is, is where would the fall have come? That's really what we're talking about. Like what would have taken me out? You know, cause all of this, any of this deception that I was living was going to take me out some way, shape or form. Right. And I'm gonna tell you, man,

that's where gratitude comes in for me right now. Because I'm just like, oh, if I hadn't have done it. And I just thank God. I'm just thankful for my wife. I'm thankful for my family. I'm thankful for the people who did stick with me. Because it was a very lonely time during that period. There were camps and people were like, what is Terry talking about? And in my own community, I was

looked at as a pariah for even technically joining Me Too, which they thought was a female thing until all these men, I mean, we had wrestlers and pro athletes that came out about, you know, the fact is there's an organization called One in Six that talks about how one in six men have been sexually molested at some time in their life. And wait, and don't even acknowledge it. They've been in military and whatever, and they just called it, well, the guy was goofing around.

But you've been molested. Yeah. That line was crossed. If you don't unpack that and deal with that, you're gonna act out in some way that is not in service to you or others. The prison is full, full of people who were at one time or another used and abused in that way

and acted out in some way, but would never ever tell what happened to them. I mean, that's why, you know, you doing what you've done is so powerful and palpable because you are the, you're cut from this cloth of the ultimate, you know, you've got this incredible physique and this incredible career.

And as such, for you to be able to come to the microphone and talk about these things, I think gives permission to all of these people who are harboring these stories with shame and in secrecy. I'll tell you this, I will say my greatest accomplishment beyond film, beyond movies and TV and all this stuff was when I got to team up with Amanda Wynn

and she is the founder of Rise, which was all about passing the sexual assault survivors bill of rights. Because the thing is, is that whoever the perpetrator is, has tons of rights. And she found that anyone who was a victim of these things had no rights at all. And I joined up with her and we went to Congress.

And what was wild is that she had always brought women there to talk and it was never a big, it never got that much light. And by having a man there, it was packed. That room was full. It was on CNN. It was the highlight. People were like, wait a minute.

And I look at that and I could feel the millions and millions of people who never got to tell. Dude, it was, I don't even know how to describe it. Because it's something that, it comes with so much shame, societal shame, but I said, I have nothing to be ashamed of. And I remember this was my log line during this whole time. I was like, I will not be shamed. I did nothing wrong. And I had to repeat that because you feel like,

ooh, people don't even wanna touch it. They were like, oh, oh, oh, oh. And I said, I will not be shamed. I did nothing wrong. And this is what happens to people who are victim or victimized. I am no longer a victim. I feel like now, there's a point where you grow past

and you decide to grow and you decide to move. I was victimized, but no longer. But to just be there and feel that from so many people, that energy was like, finally, finally, someone could come forward and say this. It was my calling. And I said, this is the most important thing I'll ever do. Yeah.

Ever. Yeah, that's really beautiful. You've been very generous with your time and I wanna let you go, but I can't let you go without one final thing that I wanna talk with you about, which is this quote that I love, that I've heard you say,

which is, in order to have, you must do, "'and in order to do, you must be.'" There's so much in there, man. Like this is the keys to the kingdom, in my opinion. It is. So let's close it out with a few thoughts on what that means and how that idea has been transformative in your life.

You know, I am an idealist. And I think that comes with being an artist or just seeing the vision and just seeing a better way and going, oh, I wanna go, I want that, you know? And the thing is, is that for me, what was wild is that I always thought things were impossible or I thought it was magic. But what I began to do is in order to be the person I wanted to be, I had to say, I have it already. In order to have the money and be, let's say, consider yourself a rich person, you have to look at the riches you have and say, I have this. And to order to have, you must do.

And then once you say, I have this, you do the things a rich person would do. And all of a sudden, you are. But remember that in my mom's religion, the do part was gone. It was gone. And I realized that in the action, first of all, the visualization, and then the action. And then there it is, it comes. And it's almost like I say, you don't know you're in Los Angeles, but you are. So if somebody just closed your eyes, blindfolded you,

plopped you right there in it, you all of a sudden would have to know, you would have markers and different things, all this stuff. But the realization is that you are there and you have to be there now. And then you behave like you're there now. Right. Dude, it's a deep thought.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You own that truth. It just hasn't happened yet. Like my friend Jesse Isler, he has a quote that he used to, a mantra that he would repeat to himself when he was a young person, like, "'I'm a millionaire, they just haven't paid me yet.'" But like, you know, that idea applying to everything.

Like, you know, you just, you intuit or you inhabit the idea of what that, who that person is who has the thing that you want or is living the life that you want and you then conduct yourself accordingly. Let me tell you, and a perfect example is the first time I tried to quit porn, you're like, this is the hardest thing ever.

Like, what am I gonna do? I'll remind you, I had three different jobs. I started working like crazy because I was like, what am I going to do with my time? But it was hard because I was like, this was what I used to do. And when I didn't do it anymore, the habit for doing something had, you don't get rid of things, you just replace them. And I started to replace it with good things. And all of a sudden, I didn't have any desire for it anymore. But I can't mark the moment. I can't mark the time. It was 12 years. But then all of a sudden you go, I don't need that. That's not me anymore. I'm a whole nother person. And it's so incredible. It's almost like going back through those Franklin planners and realizing, wait, you saw yourself there.

You're even past that. You know what I mean? Yeah, but it's also the difference between white knuckling it. Like I'm gonna apply my self-will to this problem and just like, I am not gonna do this thing versus like, I'm letting go. I'm transcending this

because I am becoming this other person who wouldn't do that. Let me tell you, that is a great thing because I have to tell you this because willpower doesn't work. It doesn't work. Believe me, I tried the first time I was getting out of it. You're like, no, it's ridiculous.

But what I realized is that it's not a willpower issue. It's a lack of information issue. The more you start to realize and know, it changes you. Like, when you know what it's doing, when you know what it's costing, I did things like making logs of how much I spent on all that every day. And you think, if you didn't write it down, you go, I spent 20 bucks. When I actually wrote it

down, it was $300. And you go, what in the world? But you can't rely on our intuition that way. You have to start to really write it down and see it and the whole thing. And the willpower does not work. It's got to be the info, the info. What is it I don't know? And once you start going like that, you know what, you're trying to lose weight. You know what to eat. You know what causes you to do these things.

You know, you know what exercises to do. You know what to be. And it's so, and all of a sudden it changes you. You wake up and you're just different because you know more and you're responsible for more. The more you know, the more you're responsible for. And so it makes it an amazing, I like to call it, it moves from a toilet into a tornado. The spin just starts to go up and up and up and up. The toilet is the other way, but the tornado, it gets better and better and better.

I love it, man. I love it. Any final thoughts on somebody who might be listening to this or watching this, who is caught in some form of compulsion or addictive behavior and is having trouble knowing they need to put it in the rear view mirror, but can't seem to get out of their own way.

Let me tell you, my best advice period is find someone you love and trust and really, really believe in and tell them. Most addictions thrive in secrecy. and really, really believe in and tell them. Most addictions thrive in secrecy. That's it, I'm telling you. It's the secret is the killer. Once, you know, I went public on Facebook Live. Yeah.

That's done like hundreds of millions of views now at this point. Oh my God. Like that. Worldwide. When I did that, the world shook, but I did that to kill it, to kill it for good. Shame can't survive the light.

It can't. It's like exposing the germs to sunlight. And dude, fine. But see, I wouldn't say, and I would never, never, never suggest that you do this publicly. Do it with people you don't trust. Usually it doesn't work out.

No, I was built for that. I was in that mode. But actually I'd already been through past that point. And I went public just even to help other people. But when I got public with my family, I got public when I started to voice that I had an addiction, I started to voice what the pornography thing was.

And I started to talk, it loses its power. Slowly but surely, the fact that you can talk about your alcoholism, it takes the power away from it. And so anyone who's going through this, the more you find someone you trust that you can share these things with, it slowly starts to real. It's just, I like to say it shrinks and it gets cleaned out. It's just, I like to say it shrinks and it gets cleaned out. But the secrecy man, everything grows in secret, dude. Everything, you lose total control. The more secrets you keep,

that's one reason why I'm so vulnerable. Cause I don't want any secrets. I just don't, I don't want any more. I tell the whole story and man, I'm in control. Right. I feel totally in control. It's the ultimate weight loss. Yes, it is. Yes, it is. You wanna feel lighter in your skin.

It feels so good, man. I like to call it being one person. Remember it was the image, Terry, and then it was backwards. It doesn't know, nothing feels better than being one person. Like, I mean what I say, I say what I mean. It's so refreshing and I have no, there's no guilt. There's no, it's like being debt free.

Right. You know what I mean? It just feels like, I don't owe anybody. Yeah. It feels good. Yeah. Amazing, man. Thank you.

Oh, thank you. Appreciate you, Terry Crews, that was unbelievable. What a gift. I enjoyed this, man. Thank you, man. I enjoyed it, thank you for having me. Of course, everybody pick up Terry's new book, "'Tough," available wherever you buy books. And Terry's pretty easy to find on the internet,

track down, if you haven't heard of him, I'm sure you already have. And also America's Got Talent is coming back this summer. That's right, this summer, May 31st. May 31st, all right. So he'll be in your household worldwide. That's it. And I'm gonna get shit because like you were here for over two hours

and we didn't even talk about the fitness stuff or intermittent fasting or anything like that. So I might have to get you to come back here. We're about to come back. Yeah, yeah. Do your best. You know, do a five minute workout. That's what you gotta do.

There you go. Thanks, man. Good times. Appreciate you. Thank you. Much love. Thank you, my man. Peace.

That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guest, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com where you can find the entire podcast archive,

as well as podcast merch, my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change in the Plant Power Way, as well as the Plant Power Meal Planner at meals.richroll.com. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts,

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Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camiolo with additional audio engineering by Cale Curtis. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis with assistance by our creative director, Dan Drake. Portraits by Davy Greenberg and Grayson Wilder. Graphic and social media assets, courtesy of Jessica Miranda, Daniel Solis, Dan Drake, and AJ Akpodiete. Thank you, Georgia Whaley, for copywriting and website management. And of course, our theme music was created by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt, and Harry Mathis.

Appreciate the love, love the support. See you back here soon. Peace. Plants back here soon. Peace, plants. Namaste. Thank you.