The Rich Roll Podcast - The Best of 2013 Anthology Episode

Episode Date: December 9, 2013

Now for something a little different. In celebration of our 1st year anniversary and the quickly approaching new year, I thought it would be fun to compile a “Best Of” edition of the show, with e...xcerpts from some of the more popular interviews over the course of the past twelve months to create a year-end mashup episode. So Tyler, my son and esteemed podcast producer, audio engineer and musician (he writes, produces and arranges all the music for the show as well) rolled up his sleeves and went to work, spending hours culling through the best and the brightest of 2013 to create today's show – a full-length compendium of awesome, it's a veritable grab-bag cornucopia of amazing conversational clips edited together to create a complete show. Excerpted interviews include the following past guests, in chronological order: THE BEST OF THE RRP – 2013 * NutritionFacts.org Founder Dr. Michael Greger ( Episode 7 ) * Julie Piatt on New Year's Resolutions ( Episode 9 ) * Ironman World Champion Chris “Macca” McCormack ( Episode 24 ) * Fruitarian Ultra-Runner Michael Arnstein ( Episode 26 ) * Writer & Ultra-Runner Mishka Shubaly ( Episode 27 ) * Australian Television, Radio & Podcast Host Osher Günsberg ( Episode 30 ) * PlantPowered Ironman, Author and Cro-Mags' Frontman John Joseph ( Episode 41 ) * PlantPowered Ironman & Weight Loss Surgeon Dr. Garth Davis ( Episode 50 ) * Olympic Cyclist & Motivational Life Coach Dr. Jeff Spencer ( Episode 57 ) * SunLife Organics Founder Khalil Rafati ( Episode 61 ) For show notes and to learn more about these guests, click the corresponding episode hyperlinks, above. Also, we didn't want to include too much from very recent shows (even though some of them have been incredibly popular), as they are still so fresh. For this reason, and because we have so many new subscribers who most likely have only listened to the most recent shows, we decided to focus on the early guests. If you're miffed because I left your personal favorite out, I get it. So many amazing guests over the year it was almost impossible to make a selection — it's like trying to figure out who's going to be your groomsmen at your wedding. But we had to pick 10. Not the definitive last word on the best of the best by any means – just good mix nonetheless.

Transcript
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Starting point is 00:00:00 Welcome to episode 64 of the Rich Roll Podcast, the best of 2013. The Rich Roll Podcast. Hey everybody, welcome to the Rich Roll Podcast. I am Rich Roll, I am your host. What do we do here? Well, each week I bring to you the best and the brightest in health, wellness, and fitness. World-class athletes, doctors, nutritionists, entrepreneurs, yogis, meditators, all kinds of people. Paradigm-busting personalities, people who are at the forefront, the leading minds that are here to help you unlock and unleash your best, most authentic self. That's my goal.
Starting point is 00:00:54 And thanks for coming along for the ride. Today, we're going to do something different. I realized that we recently eclipsed the one-year mark since I started this show. And the moment passed without me even making mention of it. And I thought that we should, in honor of that, do a best of episode, the best of 2013. Seems like a good time of the year to do it. We're almost at the end of the year. And so that's what we did. Tyler, my son, and my producer on the show spent the greater portion of the past week culling through a lot of the past episodes, a lot of the older episodes, to pull out some of the great clips from some of the great guests that we had and has edited together today's episode.
Starting point is 00:01:43 And I think it's going to be awesome. Even if you're a longtime listener, you may have forgotten some of the earlier episodes. And if you're new, we tried to focus on the older episodes. In iTunes, they only list the most recent 50. So we went back all the way to the beginning and tried to pull out some good stuff from the earlier months of the show. So it's awesome. I think you're going
Starting point is 00:02:06 to like it. We've got Dr. Michael Greger. We've got Macca, Chris McCormick. We've got the fruitarian ultra runner, Michael Ernstein. We've got a little bit from my conversation with my wife, Julie, on New Year's resolutions. Mishka Shubali, the writer and the ultra runner. Mishka actually has a new Kindle single out that you should check out. I'll post a link to that in the show notes. Asher Gunsberg, John Joseph, a show favorite. Dr. Garth Davis and a clip from a more recent episode, my conversation with Khalil Rafati.
Starting point is 00:02:42 Tons of good stuff. Certainly not everything. So if your favorite guests didn't make the cut, sorry about that. I couldn't include everything. And we've had so many amazing people. So if you guys enjoy this, maybe we'll pull together a second Best Of episode. Send me your comments and let me know who I left out that you'd like to hear. Also, give a shout-out to Tyler, who worked really hard on this episode. He's also responsible for all the great music during the show. He composed it, he arranged it, he produced it, and he edits the show too. So give him a thumbs-up, everybody.
Starting point is 00:03:23 I want to give a shout-out to Josh Lajani. Last week's episode, that was one of my most popular episodes ever. People were really inspired by his everyman message. And it just goes to show how potent a true inspirational story is. And it makes me realize that that's what really people are connecting with. I try to give a smattering of good information from the experts out there, but there's nothing like a good down-home story from an average guy changing his life. And that really resonated with people. So I'm glad you guys enjoyed it.
Starting point is 00:03:57 I am recording this from Casablanca, Morocco. And you might be wondering, why is the audio quality sounds so terrible? Well, a funny thing happened. I got out all my fancy podcast equipment, which I brought with me here and plugged in my soundboard using my little converter, international converter thing. And it immediately made a pop noise and started to smoke and looked like it was going to explode. made a pop noise and started to smoke and looked like it was going to explode. It's not working. So I'm recording this on my iPhone voice recorder. So if the audio quality isn't so great for these intros, apologies for that. But the important thing is getting an episode up this week. So what am I doing in Casablanca? Well, it's a good question. I actually just got
Starting point is 00:04:42 here last night. I was in Bahrain the other day. If you follow me on Twitter or Instagram, you probably already know that. What was I doing there? Well, I was giving a keynote speech to an organization called YPO. And now I'm in Casablanca to do the same thing tomorrow. And it's really extraordinary. It's extraordinary to have the opportunity to travel to these amazing exotic locations who are interested in hearing the plant power message. It just blows my mind when I think back a year ago to what I was doing to what I'm doing now. It just shows the tremendous power of technology to touch people. I met so many people in Bahrain who were telling me
Starting point is 00:05:28 that they enjoyed listening to the podcast. And the idea that people in the Middle East are listening to the podcast and enjoying it, it's just I can't even, it doesn't compute. I can't even comprehend that. And I'm so grateful and it's just so amazing to have the opportunity to travel and to speak to people and talk to people about healthy living, healthy diet, and fitness, obviously the subjects that are very dear to my heart.
Starting point is 00:05:55 After this, I'm going to be going to New York City. I've got a bunch of podcast episodes scheduled when I'm in town there, so look forward to some really cool new stuff coming up soon. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved
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Starting point is 00:07:59 go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. All right, without further ado, ladies and gentlemen, the best of 2013. Enjoy. First up, we've got one of my favorite people in the world, certainly one of my favorite doctors in the plant power revolution, Dr. Michael Greger. I find that when you start talking about, you mentioned cancer, and people start to get real crazy when you talk about using nutrition to deal with cancer. So I was wondering if you could kind of talk a little bit about that because it's such a sensitive thing. I mean, you know, heart disease, you can kind of wrap your brain around it. It's like, okay, well, that makes sense. But, you know, cancer seems to be a whole other emotionally charged bag altogether.
Starting point is 00:08:55 Sure. You know, so 1990, Ornish, you know, proved that you could reverse our number one killer. And so done with that, he moved on to number two with cancer. And so he actually did a trial where he put men on a vegan diet for a year and was actually able to reverse the progression of prostate cancer. Now, you can only do this in a few certain arenas, basically at the end and at the beginning, because it's considered unethical to use alternative complementary treatments as opposed to chemo and radiation surgery, except in two circumstances.
Starting point is 00:09:28 One, at the end of care and when someone's terminal and they just kind of gave up, then you can try stuff. Or at the early stages of certain slow-growing cancers. So, for example, prostate cancer, in its early stages, it's considered medically acceptable a watch and wait attitude. And so you basically, you know the cancer is going to start spreading, going to start growing, but we have a kind of a biomarker called PSA levels. We can track the progression of the disease. And so we want to delay prostatectomy, pulling out the prostate surgically as long as
Starting point is 00:10:00 possible, but so we can just watch the growth of cancer. And so it's a watch and wait attitude. So look, while you're watching and waiting, might as well try things so you can see if you actually do something about the disease because having your prostate removed has all sorts of side effects like impotence and incontinence and all sorts of things. You want to keep your prostate as long as possible. And so I randomized men, you know, half eating plant-based diet, half, you know, eating their conventional diet. And after a year, it was actually able to show not just a slowdown of the PSA levels, which is kind of a marker of the volume, the tumor mass, but actually able to reverse, right? So tumor shrinkage actually not just slowed down the cancer, stopped it, but actually shrink the tumors compared to the regular group,
Starting point is 00:10:46 which, of course, continued to get worse, and then they had to go to surgery, et cetera. None of the plant-based folks were forced into surgery because of rising levels. And so that's – I mean that is so exciting to be able to give someone that kind of hope. But again, it's only been tried in these very kind of unusual circumstances, but that's some really exciting stuff. Now, the Pritikin Foundation actually has continued along with this work, did this elegant series of experiments. I have about two weeks of videos on it. Or basically, it's hard to put people on a diet for a year. In fact, how Ornish did is actually delivered – hand-delivered vegan meals every day for a year. That's expensive, right?
Starting point is 00:11:31 But look, if you want to find out what happens to put people on a vegan diet, you better cook for – I mean you better – you know, simply for men who don't want to be – but who may not be able to cook for themselves. So those are very expensive studies to do. So what these researchers did was to – this elegant series of experiments, they took people, they drew their blood, put them on different diets, drew their blood and then dripped their blood on cancer cells growing in a petri dish just to see whose blood was better at suppressing cancer growth. And so they did this with men and prostate cancer cancer, did this with women in breast cancer. And so I showed just the extraordinary results.
Starting point is 00:12:10 You take women in the standard American diet and you put on a plant-based diet, not for a year, but for two weeks, two weeks on a plant-based diet. And you can, and the cancer cell clearance, I mean, I actually show the Petri dishes with these carpets of human breast cancer laid down, what their blood could do before just two weeks ago and then two weeks afterwards, or as little as 11 days eating a plant-centered diet, what they could do, the kind of extraordinary abilities of their bloodstream to suppress cancer growth. They could do the kind of extraordinary abilities of their bloodstream to suppress cancer growth and actually cancer clearance, actually kind of inducing what's called apoptosis or killing off of cancer cells. And this was a combination of both diet and exercise. They had these women starting to walk 30 minutes a day, seven days a week.
Starting point is 00:13:04 And since then, studies have kind of looked at trying to tease out the diet and exercise effects. So it's that kind of data that has people really excited, raising the question, wait a second, what kind of blood do we want in our bodies? I mean, do we want blood to just kind of rolls over when new cancer cells pop up? Or do we want blood circulating to every nook and cranny in our body with the power to slow down or stop it? Right. I mean, what's so powerful is not just this preventative aspect of this regime, but the reversibility of these conditions. I mean, the more I hear about this and the more that I understand that these congenital problems that people have can be reversed with these simple changes to their diet.
Starting point is 00:13:52 It's just, it's so, it's just, it's so dramatic and so powerful that, you know, I just can't, I can't, you know, shout from the mountaintop enough about it. And it's quick. I mean, that's, I mean, so basically it's like, look, give it two weeks. Who couldn't give it two weeks, right? I mean, 30 days would be better. But I mean, for some of these chronic pain conditions like rheumatoid arthritis and things, I mean, you can absolutely change people's lives in literally a matter of days. You know, I just came back from Florida where the Whole Foods Corporation does this thing for employees where it does this kind of week-long immersion where basically it shows people how to cook.
Starting point is 00:14:30 It's basically kind of a Pritikin-type spa program. It gives people good, healthy plant-based foods. And the stories from, you know, they're all grumpy and, you know, and caffeine withdrawing the first couple of days. But by the end of literally one week, you have these stories where it's like this is the first time I've been without pain in so many years or we have to take people off their meds because otherwise their blood pressure is too low, the blood sugar is too low. I mean that's just extraordinary and you just have this feeling. I mean that should be the first thing when anyone walks in a doctor's office. All right, we're going to put you on a good diet until I see you next month. Right. And then and then we'll then we'll see. And if you still have problems, then we'll deal with it. But
Starting point is 00:15:13 you know, that should be the default option. And unfortunately, we don't see enough of that. Yeah, it's crazy. I mean, I get, you know, I get a lot of emails from people that, you know, tell me these intimate stories of their, you know, health problems and these dramatic turnarounds that happen in a very short period of time. And I'm inundated with these emails as a result of the book. So I can't imagine, you know, what you must, you know, the sort of people that must be constantly trying to connect with you to, you know, relate this kind of stuff. And it's so dramatic. And, you know, it's emotional. You know, stuff. And it's so dramatic. And, you know, it's emotional, you know, these, these are people's lives at stake, and, and they're finding the power within themselves to turn it around drastically. And like you said, quickly, and they're pissed.
Starting point is 00:15:57 Understandably, it's like, why didn't anyone tell me this? Why didn't my doctor tell me this? Right? Well, I want to get into that. I want to get it, I want, you know, being a doctor, you know, why, why is that? I mean, I think I understand why, but like, why is it that more doctors aren't, you know, well-versed in this kind of thing? And what do you think it is about whether it's the medical school system or just the way, you know, our whole healthcare system is set up that is sort of clogging the information channels and preventing this from getting out in a better way? Well, yeah, it really does start in the medical school. So only, according to the last national survey, a quarter, only a quarter, one out of four medical schools have a single course in nutrition. On average, doctors graduate with four hours of nutrition training. That's out
Starting point is 00:16:46 of thousands of hours of preclinical instruction, right? And those four hours are like, you know, the biochemistry of vitamins, right? Not really, you know, using, you know, nutrition, using diet to actually help people. And so, no wonder. I mean, the sorry state of nutrition education, that comes from a number of things. The boards, the kind of medical equivalent of the bar exam where you have to pass to become a doctor. I mean they don't – about 3 percent of the questions have anything to do with nutrition. So look, if it's not on the exam and your medical school wants to look good and have really high pass rates on the board, you teach to the board. You teach to the test and so you don't get any nutrition.
Starting point is 00:17:26 Probably a bigger factor is the influence of the pharmaceutical industry. I mean, as students, certainly as doctors, you get taken out on what are called drug lunches where, you know, they pay for your lunch or they pay for your Caribbean cruise or they pay for whatever just to talk to you and to give you their, you know, their brand of propaganda. I mean, there's even literally schemes like you write your – you get a trip, a Caribbean trip for every 40th prescription of this drug that you prescribe. It's like a little frequent flyer.
Starting point is 00:17:54 And so it's like these kind of inducements and they pay for a lot of education. So if you type into Google continuing medical education, every doctor needs to get a certain number of hours to keep their license. I mean, nearly all the results, right, are all from drug companies. So I'm there who's paying. They're paying for free medical education.
Starting point is 00:18:15 Of course, they're paying for free because they're going to get so much on the kind of back end. And so do you think the problem is as malignant as these companies, these pharmaceutical companies preventing medical schools from actually having robust nutrition programs where this information can come out? Or is it just the focus is not there? You know, it's interesting. In certain circumstances, there's a – so the reason we know about cholesterol.
Starting point is 00:18:44 Why do we even know about cholesterol? The reason we know about cholesterol is because Lipitor, the statin anti-cholesterol drug, is the number one prescribed drug on the planet Earth, literally billions of prescriptions. And so drug companies – and look, these are drugs you take every single day for the rest of your life. It's like a pharmaceutical industry wet dream. wet dream. And so they were, they needed to, they had, they launched these educational campaigns, getting people worried, understandably, about their cholesterol. So the reason that we know that eggs are, you know, these, you know, these little, you know, cholesterol bombs, and the reason we know about saturated fat is because there was actually a financial incentive to get people to get their cholesterol tested because they knew
Starting point is 00:19:25 a certain percentage of those are going to go on drugs and very, very lucrative. And so it's interesting how that's actually kind of complemented. And so now when I talk about cholesterol, people know what I'm talking about. They may not know a lot about some other kind of esoteric stuff about nutrition. I have to start with the basics. But the reason I know is because there's actually a financial incentive to get people to learn about it. But of course then they don't want people actually treated with diet. They want to get everyone on drugs. But even if they get 10 percent of people on drugs, they just made a huge amount of money. And so in some cases it works against us.
Starting point is 00:20:01 In very few cases it works against us. In very few cases, it works for us. But I think if there was one illustration of kind of the power of or kind of where the medical industry is really stuck in is this Senate Bill 380 out of California. So this was two years ago now. out of California. So this was two years ago now. So Dr. John McDougall is one of the great plant-powered heroes. Introduced, basically wrote this thing that's saying that all doctors need to get, for their continuing medical education, to keep their licenses, they should get a few hours nutrition training. And so it came out to like seven hours over every two years or something. I mean, just some pittance, but at least something is better than nothing. So I actually have videos where I show the medical organizations testifying against the bill. So the California Medical Association came out against it, the Orthopedic Association.
Starting point is 00:21:01 The family medicine docs came out opposed to doctors getting a few hours of nutrition training every two years. That's insane. It's I mean, it's so I mean, it just shows that they're not even just kind of complacent. I mean, they're kind of going out of their way. So it is malignant. I mean, it really is. It is a malignancy. I mean, it really is a malignancy.
Starting point is 00:21:27 Well, I mean, there certainly are. I mean, there's a multibillion-dollar processed food industry. I mean, there's a lot of money at stake. You mentioned advertisers. To keep people confused about nutrition, right? So I would encourage anyone who's interested in this kind of work to read Marion Nestle's great book, Food Politics. It talks about how the dietary guidelines get hammered out. I have a few videos on that as well. Who's on these dietary guidelines committees?
Starting point is 00:21:53 It turns out they're the same people that are on the Coca-Cola's Institute for Beverage Wellness or the McDonald's Sugar Association or the Salt Institute. These are the people writing our, you know, writing our guidelines. And so she talks about having been on some of these committees, talks about the, you know, how they just want to confuse people. I mean, that that's that that is in their best interest. Talking about like the tobacco people, when they knew that they there's this overwhelming sign showing tobacco is killing people, there's this famous memo that came out of all these lawsuits called Doubt is Our Product, right? That's what these PR firms, Doubt is Our Product, that's all they needed to do.
Starting point is 00:22:36 They didn't have to argue cigarettes are good for you. All they had to do is instill this doubt. Oh, well, some studies show smoking is bad for you, some studies show it's not. Just throw my hands up in the air. Same thing with nutrition. By keeping people in this kind of constant state of this is good for you, this is bad for you, I mean, people just say, ah, forget it and just kind of eat whatever they want. And unfortunately, you know, it plays into their favor. I mean, even if you're very well-intentioned and educated, it's still confusing. You know, even if you're reading the labels and you're trying and you're trying, there are so many conflicting messages out there that that's exactly what happens.
Starting point is 00:23:18 You just kind of go, forget it. You know, just eat what I'm eating. Right. Right. And that's right. Plays into their favor. But look, we're putting this in our family's mouths. I mean so it really – we need to take a step back and really take it upon ourselves to do some critical thinking and find out who's funding the studies that we're reading about. These are the kind of things I try to keep in mind when I'm doing my work and I try to point out funding sources. And, you know, it's – so the scientific literature has its own problems.
Starting point is 00:23:53 Who's funding the studies? And, you know, but it's the best we have, right? And so that's why I've kind of tried to do my best to distill out the best available data at the present time. And look, it could change, but all we can do is do our best. Thanks, Doc. Next up is a clip from my conversation with Julie from last January focused on New Year's resolutions. What do you think about New Year's resolutions as a concept? Well, interesting.
Starting point is 00:24:33 I'm sort of sitting in a new place this year. I have to say that I have no New Year's resolutions. And it doesn't mean... how do i explain this i uh i really feel like the energy of this year is coming from a different place um more of a receptive magnetic, attractive kind of place of beingness, where I would say that I have some visions. You could call them dreams or visions. And rather than making a resolution, a resolution almost feels outdated to me at this point from where I'm sitting, although I'm sure that it's useful to many people. But it almost feels like, you know, dreaming your dream and feeling it in all of your senses.
Starting point is 00:25:37 Like instead of making a goal or a hard, fast sort of milestone to achieve, or a hard, fast sort of milestone to achieve, what if we described it in a way where we described the emotions or the experiences that we wanted to experience or have in our lives? So what if we said, you know, I want to experience more connection, more community, more love, more intimacy, more creativity, more health. But you need a roadmap to get to those things. Yeah, but see, when you're going into your mind, when you say you need a roadmap, so it's your mind trying to put it in a structure so that your mind feels okay. And what I'm suggesting is that there is a more expanded way
Starting point is 00:26:27 of accessing a higher level of information by dropping into your heart and feeling how something feels in your body. That's a much more powerful way to attract something into your life. So I know it's confusing because we're used to doing it the other way, and this is where the meditation and the diet
Starting point is 00:26:51 and the really getting inside of yourself in a quiet way, it's a receptive way, it's a magnetic way, it's a heart way of being you want to know what i think yes i'm sure it will be exactly the opposite no i i'm i'm conflicted over it actually because i think that you know having a having resolutions to you know improve yourself over the course of the year is obviously a good thing you know and in the pantheon of like holidays where you know, improve yourself over the course of the year is obviously a good thing, you know. And in the pantheon of like holidays where, you know, society imposes these, you know, mandatory things upon us, it's probably the best one.
Starting point is 00:27:38 You know, it's sort of like it's Valentine's Day, so you must go out and, you know, buy this and do this for your spouse or your partner or whatever. And it's like, really? Just because the greeting card industry wants me to do it. You're not going to get me a box of Red Heart chocolates? Well, no. We have these rules in our culture. And it's sort of like, well, on Christmas, you get the tree.
Starting point is 00:28:02 And on Valentine's Day, you get the box of candy. And you just do what you're supposed to do or whatever. And I kind of resent some of that. Yeah. You know, like just because you're telling me that this is the day that I need to show love for my partner, that's the day that I have to do it. And if I don't, I'm in trouble. You're in big, big trouble if you don't. Based on my last five years of Valentine's Day. But so yeah, but, but new, but new year's
Starting point is 00:28:28 day being resolute, like that's, you know, that's kind of what you do. It's on the better side, but here's what I think in my experience, you know, you always hear like the jaded person or the jaded side of me would say, well, people don't change, you know, you can make your resolution. That's fine. But like, you know, who actually falls through on this stuff? It's a bunch of nonsense. And, you know, nobody really ever changes anyway. And, you know, my message has always been, yeah, you can change. I changed, you know, people can change when, you know, the sort of right circumstances arise with the right sort of will and spiritual alchemy and follow through and actions and support and all
Starting point is 00:29:06 these kinds of things. Remarkable change can happen in human beings. I believe in the potential of humans to completely alter who they are if they, you know, desire to do so. But I also think that people are motivated to change when they're in pain, when they're under extreme duress. You know, like there has to be pressure on somebody. So are your resolutions painful? Well, no, you get a diamond, you know, when you exert incredible pressure on carbon, right? You know what I mean?
Starting point is 00:29:37 Like the good thing comes out of pressure. And so with New Year's resolutions, there isn't really that. There's a lot of lip service, really. You know what I mean? It's sort of like, I liken it to doing an intervention on an addict that doesn't really want to get sober. Right. You know what I mean? It's sort of like, well, the family and society at large believes that this person needs to change their behavior.
Starting point is 00:30:04 Right. at large believes that this person needs to change their behavior. Right. But if that person isn't ready to change or they don't really want to, or even if they say they want to, but in their heart they don't really want to, or they're not ready to, they might change for a little while,
Starting point is 00:30:15 but it won't be long before they're, you know, back doing whatever it is that they were doing before. Right. So the point being that the desire to change has to come from inside yourself. It has to be a self-generated, strong impulse. And usually that impulse comes from, again, pain or pressure or something amiss in your life that is driving you to be different than who you are. You don't just wake up, everything's great and say, well, I'm going to change and be this now. Like, maybe that happens for some people. I'm going to be blonde. That would be the, well,
Starting point is 00:30:50 that's easy to do. We can make that happen if you want. But you know what I'm saying? You know what my point, you understand my point? Yeah, I understand your point. And so, so, so are we saying possibly there could be some sort of blend of process that might be of service to you? Well, it brings me back to your point, which is like basically what you're saying is, you know, instead of making this list, you know, go inside yourself. And I guess I'm saying the same thing, which is, you know, it all starts with inside. You know, it's an inside job, right? you know, it all starts with inside, you know, it's an inside job, right? Like what you manifest in your exterior is really only a reflection of what's going on inside. So before you can say, I want X, Y, and Z in the exterior world, whatever those things may be,
Starting point is 00:31:35 the best way, or really the only way to get that in a sustainable and true fashion is by doing the interior work. You know what I mean? Absolutely. And, and I get every year, the past couple of years around this time, I get asked by various blogs and websites, you know, could you give five tips to, you know, for people to get healthier in the new year, to help them with their resolutions. And I'm happy to do it. Like I want to help. And I believe that I have tools that are helpful and we can talk about some of those. And, you know, hopefully they're helpful to people, but I always feel when I do that, like it's a little glib, you know, it's sort of like, you know, do this, do that. It's sort of like, it's a little surfacy. And then I do it and I go,
Starting point is 00:32:21 I wonder if that actually ever really helped anybody. Maybe it did. I don't know. You know? But I think there's also something to that energy that we experience in our relationship where, you know, I was pushing for something, you know, different within you, within our relationship. Ha ha. Within you. That's funny. relationship, um, haha, within you. That's funny. Um, but, uh, you know, um, what about if we started with this, uh, really grand acceptance of exactly where we are right now? So it's, again, it comes down to the faith question to me, which is, you know, I trust that the divine plan, myself, you know, at a higher level,
Starting point is 00:33:09 has me exactly in the experience that is exactly appropriate for me at this point in time. And so, if we started off by just having that embrace, that acceptance of exactly where you are in your life. And it doesn't matter where that is. It could be very low. It could be in a very traumatic situation. And begin from there. Begin with the love and acceptance from there. And then, yes, vision. Yes, dream. Yes, do, you know, I call it detached action. You know, it's like you're acting spontaneously in ways that are in alignment with your highest vision of being and living lifestyle, if you want to sort of simplify it. from that point of being in acceptance, of accepting yourself first, then you can start to identify,
Starting point is 00:34:08 you know, I would like more health in my life, for instance, coming up. I would like, I'd like to raise the bar on all of that, even up, even raise that up a level.
Starting point is 00:34:18 Yeah, but let me just interrupt you because for me, like, I'm able to change only when I look at something inside of myself and say, that's unacceptable. You know, I cannot accept this part of the way that I'm living anymore. That has to change. Like, it's my refusal to accept that that is the driver for the change. Right. So, how do you reconcile that with... Yeah, but I don't know if I agree with that.
Starting point is 00:34:48 Possibly, I mean, in our situation, our big catalyst, which basically is the birth of this entire movement and why we're sitting where we are, came from you being completely loved and accepted exactly how you were. But that's you towards me. Right, I know. But we do it towards ourselves as well. It still can inflict sort of like a prison on yourself.
Starting point is 00:35:12 The self-judgment is worse than anybody else's judgment on any other person. That's always the case. Yeah, it's always the case. But I feel like that was a part of why I was able to change because I wasn't, you know, irrespective of where you were coming from towards me, it was my, you know, internal decision that this is not acceptable anymore. And why was that? Why was it not acceptable? Because this is, I think it's the next step. What were you desiring in your life?
Starting point is 00:35:41 I think it's the next step. What were you desiring in your life? What were the emotions that you wanted to experience or the events you wanted to experience? Right. I mean, it wasn't like I woke up and I made a resolution that I was going to do Ultraman. It wasn't that at all. It was like I always said.
Starting point is 00:35:59 It was I want to be healthy. I want to have good energy. I want to feel good. I want to be happy. I want to feel good in my body. It was, it wasn't specific. It was just, that was the emotion, I suppose. So that's what I'm saying is I just, I really feel strongly at this point in our evolution, where we are, where all things are in the world that we live in, that it is imperative that we connect to our hearts because the heart is what contains the divine message.
Starting point is 00:36:27 And I am just saying your soul message, your life message, whatever that is, whoever you are, the answer is in your heart. It's not in your mind. And the resolutions tend to be, they feel sort of like little prison cells or judgments that, you know, maybe could be a little just harsh. That's all. You know?
Starting point is 00:36:54 But they're not harsh if, I mean, I've always operated very well in a structured environment where I have goals. And I'm on a schedule and I'm working towards that. You do. You work very well that way. And you don't, you don't operate that way. So we speak different languages in this regard. And I understand what you're saying and I,
Starting point is 00:37:12 and I believe in that, but I don't, I, I think for me, it's a, it's a manner, it's a, it's a means of trying to reconcile those two things and have them fit
Starting point is 00:37:20 together in a way that works. Like I agree that, you know, you have to go inside. You have to connect with your heart. You have to set aside that idle chatter in your mind that, you know, and if you don't understand like kind of what we're talking about,
Starting point is 00:37:35 again, listen to the Eckhart Tolle's book, the power of now, because he talks at all about this. It's actually, it's actually a great way to start 2013 is to listen to that book. It will really help you sort of make that, that distinction between, um, you know, who you are as a person, like your soul person versus what the mind does and understanding that,
Starting point is 00:37:57 that you are not your mind, you're not your mind. And then also your mind is not always your friend. And, and for, for most people, myself included, like I let my mind control who I am far too often. And understanding that you have power over your thoughts and learning how to develop mastery over that and control over the way that your brain thinks is actually a very powerful recipe for changing your life completely. So, you know, if you start there, then I think that you're on a trajectory that will set you on a better path to understanding yourself better. And then you're in a place where whatever goals you set for yourself are kind of in alignment with who you are. Because if you're disconnected from who you are as a person, you can set a goal. You can say, I want to run a 10K in this time, or I want to run my first marathon, or I want to lose 10 pounds, or I want to learn to play the banjo, or whatever it is. But is that really what you want? Is that really the goal that you're supposed to be seeking? Can you say with conviction that that is like the best goal for you to be setting? Like if
Starting point is 00:39:07 you look back a year from now and say, that was the best use of my time. Like if you're super connected with who you are and you really are tuned into your, you know, authentic self and you have mastery over your thoughts and you are connected to your heart, then yeah, it probably is. But if you're not and you're kind of floating through life and, you know, kind of going wherever the wind blows and not really sure of, you know, who you are, where you're supposed to go, then that goal that you set, that resolution may not be really what you're supposed to be doing, right? Does that make sense? Yeah, absolutely. Because you're disconnected, because you don't really know the answer. And maybe it was somebody else's idea of what you should do. Or maybe it was societies or your parents or your wife or husband or your kids or
Starting point is 00:39:54 whoever. So, um, yeah, it's getting connected with your heart. That's going to give you, it's going to give you the answers that you need. It's going to, it's going to just inspire you. You're going to be spontaneously inspired. And when it comes to you, it's like, it's like play. It's like, um, you know, it just, it just comes, it's not hard. It's not easy. It's not, I mean, it's easy. It's, uh, it's not violent. Um, it's not judgmental. It's spontaneous and flowing. Um, and, and that's how, that's how I would describe it when you're, when you're really connected. Next up, we've got the one and only Macca Ironman world champion, Chris McCormack.
Starting point is 00:40:43 And just speaking about the Olympics, um, you know, again, sort of, uh, comparing kind of, you know, your public persona and what people kind of sort of identify with you, you know, you're just this, this reigning world champion, you know, arguably the most accomplished triathlete of all time. I mean, you've won, you know, a bazillion races and, triathlete of all time. I mean, you've won, you know, a bazillion races and, and, uh, you know, everybody in the sport knows who you are. Um, and yet, you know, you've also had your struggles, like you haven't won every race. You made two attempts to make the Olympic team and missed them. Um, it took you years and years and years to get on the podium and in, in Hawaii, you know, it wasn't an overnight thing and you've had these setbacks and disappointments in your career. And, and, you know, I think it would be good, you know, we have a lot of
Starting point is 00:41:28 triathletes listen to the show or just marathon runners or just fitness people. And, and I think it's good for them to know that, you know, even at your level, you have to deal with the same things that they do and how do you sort of emotionally manage, you know, those disappointments and, and stay focused and stay energized and excited about your training and what you're doing well i honestly think that your disappointments it's how you rise from the ashes you know without being melodramatic it's it's how you deal with the disappointments that ultimately shapes your character as an athlete and uh you know i've like you said i expected to go to i'm inman Hawaii, my first attempt to win it.
Starting point is 00:42:05 Just kill it. I hadn't lost a race for three years. And I felt like I'd watched this race since I was a kid. I'd paid my dues on this island. I'd never been there. But, hey, I know Ironman better than anybody. I'm going to win this race. And you had won an Ironman prior to that, just not in Hawaii, right?
Starting point is 00:42:20 Yeah, it was my first ever Ironman. I did one half Ironman, Wildflower. I won it, broke the course record. I went and did one Ironman after that against the current world champion and Peter Reid, all these world champions. Destroyed them at Ironman Australia and thought, it's just a natural progression. I'm going to win Hawaii.
Starting point is 00:42:36 I haven't lost in three years. I don't even know how to lose. I lost. Not only did I lose, I was walking embarrassed on that island. I got a 13-minute lead off the bike, high-fived my father as I came out of transition, said, bank the check, Dad, I'll see you in a few hours. And by five miles, I was walking. By 10 miles, I couldn't put one foot in front of the other. I was out. And the sport loved that story. So not only was I out and
Starting point is 00:43:01 disappointed, the media jumped on board at his, this cocky kid thought he was going to come here and win. It was great to see him humbled by the island. So you had to deal with that disappointment. And then I came back the next year, failed again. I came back the next year. Just like slowing it down and saying, all right, the next year you came back the second time thinking, all right, I got my ass handed to me. I got to get my shit together, train hard, focus, go back. I learned my lesson. Now I'm going to win. And then to have it happen again. Yeah. But this time I was, you know, you reset yourself after that first disappointment and you try
Starting point is 00:43:33 and justify in your own head. We all do what went wrong. But looking back, you have to be absolutely honest with yourself. You know, a lot of people try and plug in an answer that isn't the real answer. It's an answer that makes them feel good. What was the mistake I made my first year round? Was it that I was too cocky? Was it that I was too skinny?
Starting point is 00:43:49 Was it that I was over-raced? And you find an answer that you think is right, and that's how you justify it in your head. But you have to stand up and go again. So in 2003, when I came back, I thought, you know what, I need a little bit more experience. That was what I blamed my failure. I've done two races in my life over two hours.
Starting point is 00:44:07 Maybe I need to do a few more and get the experience. So I registered for two Ironmans that year. I won my first one. I won my second one. I've done four Ironmans in my life, three wins, one DNF. I went to Kona again saying, this time I've worked it out. They're all dead. I've got to – I need to – yeah. I learned a little bit about nutrition.
Starting point is 00:44:26 I had no idea about nutrition before that. So I thought, man, I'm going to eat on this bike now. I'm going to win again. Came in, blown away again. It was one of the windiest years ever in Kona and I'd never experienced conditions like that in my life. It just hollowed me out. But I swore that I would finish the race.
Starting point is 00:44:44 So I walked to the finish line 72nd place humbled humbled humbled humbled but i was determined to cross the finish line that year and uh again you sit down after the race and you're like man how do i do this i've thrown my life into this you know what do you do my wife labeled that time of year the october blues because i was difficult to be around because I was in my own thoughts trying to work out what was going wrong I felt like I was doing everything right and yeah how could you win all these races and be undefeated and then just be unable to deal with this one race and the other thing is you you're trying to come to terms with that in your
Starting point is 00:45:20 own head and you're reading the press and people's other people's answers to why you're failing. Oh, I'm too cocky or he overraces and you're looking at that. Maybe that is the answer. He's too skinny. So you're trying to find answers because you think you have them because you've been successful. And around that time, with Fahy, you start to become a little bit more insular and you're trying to sort things – around that time you start to become – with Fahy you start to become a little bit more insular and you're trying to sort things out for yourself and you start to put people around you that you think can help you. And I started working a lot more with a lady, Suzanne Krafner in Germany, who's a – she specializes in schizophrenics actually.
Starting point is 00:46:00 She was a mental doctor. And we started looking more at the mental side of things because I was starting to get scarred with the Fahy. Doubting yourself. actually she was a mental doctor and uh we started looking more at the mental side of things because i was starting to get scarred with the failure and um you know doubting yourself doubting yourself they become your biggest demons i felt when i went back the next year i failed again 2003 dnf'd i was going into the energy lab in fifth place and i just could not make it to the finish line and i got into the car that year in 2004 that was as, as I got to the energy lab, I saw one of my sponsors in the car and I opened the door.
Starting point is 00:46:31 I just saw the car. I had 10 miles left to run. I opened the car door. I said, I am out. I am done. I'm retiring. And it was like it was meant to be. The person driving the car that day was Mark Allen.
Starting point is 00:46:46 He had Preston Sandusky from Kestrel, my agent Scott in the car. I've jumped in. You sit down. The air conditioning is on. They can't believe you've pulled out of the race. I was in fifth place. They're like, what are you doing? I said, I can't make it.
Starting point is 00:47:00 I'm done. They're like, you're nearly home. But they didn't realize I'd been suffering for 10 miles before that. I said, can you just drive me back to the hotel. I'm done. They're like, you're nearly home. But they didn't realize I'd been suffering for 10 miles before that. Right, right. And I said, can you just drive me back to the hotel? I'm retired. I'm done. And Mark Allen said to me, Mark.
Starting point is 00:47:11 Like, you're thinking retired, retired. I am quitting triathlon. I'm going back to short course. I'm going back to the Olympic distance racing. Ironman's not for me. I can't win this race. It's third year in. I can't even finish the thing.
Starting point is 00:47:24 And Mark Allen said, no, you're going to watch this race unfold. You're going to see what happens. Peter Reid went on to dominate, and Mark had been working with Peter Reid. And Peter, I'd beat him up all year. All year I'd beat this man. And when we're driving back, it was one year, it was Chris, I've forgotten the amateur's name, he crashed his bike out on the lava fields. And he had to run 20 miles with his bike on his shoulder, covered in blood. He ran all the way back to the transition area with his bike.
Starting point is 00:47:56 And we pulled up next to this guy. You know, I've been all over the magazines that Macca's going to win this event this year. He's won, had the most dynamic here all year. And this guy's covered in blood. And I was sitting in the back seat and we pulled up, asked him if he wanted to lift back to transition. He was three miles out. He still had to run the marathon yet. Right.
Starting point is 00:48:14 So he's running. With his bike on his shoulder. Probably barefoot, right? Barefoot. Because he has his cleats. Covered, I mean, covered head to toe in blood. Like just unbelievable. I'll never forget it.
Starting point is 00:48:24 And I pulled up next to him and they said, mate, do you want to lift back Mark Allen and Preston? He's like, no, no, I'm going to, this is Hawaii. I'm finishing this race. And he glanced in the back and he went, Macca. And I have never in my life felt so little. Honestly, it was the most, I was oh man here is this amateur this is what our sport is this is what and i i was so caught up in the goal i forgot that i should have walked
Starting point is 00:48:54 it to the finish we all suffer in our mans and i swore i got back watch peter reed win and that that vision has always stuck with me and i was like i am coming back here next I don't care about the result, but I'm going to cross that finish line and I'm going to be like, I think it's Chris Zielinski was his name. I'm going to get to the finish line. So my mindset changed. Instead of being so goal-focused, I've got to win, I've got to win, I've got to win, I've got to win, for me it became I'm getting the finish line. Forget the process.
Starting point is 00:49:22 Forget the goal. No, it was the process forget the forget the goal and I finally it was the process it wasn't it was the process you let go of the destination yes or your attachment to a certain result and just saying I'm going to engage in this process no matter what happens yeah yeah and that's a powerful lesson I think it was and I was taught by Amina and that's what's fantastic about triathlon that despite 10 years in the sport at that point despite winning everything world championships ironmans one person's race showed me what the true spirit of the of the sport was because sometimes at the pro level and an amateur athlete at that like that
Starting point is 00:49:57 couldn't happen in any other sport other than triathlon yeah you start to get caught up as a pro at the high end in focusing on the other professionals, on focusing on that goal, on winning the race, that you start to lose. You start to forget that what brought you to the sport in the first place was the challenge and what IMN racing really is, it's about a personal test. And at the end of the day, anybody, you know, you're out by 1% in an eight-hour race, you come fifth. That's, deal with it.
Starting point is 00:50:25 And the following year, I finally executed with the fastest marathon on the course. I had a really tough day. I was vomiting on the bike. I got my nutrition out. But I was the furthest I'd ever been behind in a race in my life, Ferris at the halfway. Ferris was all time. When I got to halfway at Harvey, it was 10 minutes in front of me.
Starting point is 00:50:42 I had a terrible swim. I was just struggling from the onset. I don't know why. But I said, no, forget about it. Just race your own event. By the time I got off the bike, I executed the fastest marathon, ran myself into sixth place four minutes from the win, and thought, man, things are starting to click.
Starting point is 00:50:58 It's all about a mindset. And from then on, I embraced that, kept the competitive spirit, and was second, first, and went on to have… And on a preparation level, I mean, the big seismic shift was that you started to work with Mark Allen, who kind of took you in and kind of reconfigured your approach to the race. What were some of the specific things that he changed about, not just mentally, but in your actual physical training
Starting point is 00:51:22 to prepare for Hawaii? Well, in that year that I jumped in the car with Mark and Chris gave me that lesson, I pleaded with Mark if he could sit down with me after the race. I pleaded with him. He was working with Peter Reid at the time. He was one of my main competitors. And he said, look, I'll give you 10 minutes after the race,
Starting point is 00:51:40 but I want to go and watch my athlete win. Mark was my idol, so he was true to his word. He had a coffee with me after the race. I hid to go and watch my athlete win. Mark was my idol so he was true to his word. He had a coffee with me after the race. I hid. I was so embarrassed and I hid and I said, I can't even finish this race, Mark. What would you suggest I do? And he said, look, when you won Ironman Australia, Peter rang me. He'd raced that course. He broke his record and he was like wow Macca's finding his way
Starting point is 00:52:07 I posted a very good marathon I went up to Wildflower in May and I dominated Wildflower I won my third title and ran away from Peter and Peter rang Mark and said man
Starting point is 00:52:20 he's finding his way he said Mark said it's May stop don't worry about it no one cares what happens in May. He said, then I went to Roth. I broke eight hours.
Starting point is 00:52:28 I ran a 240 marathon. Peter rang him again. We're in trouble. It's now July. He's like, this kid's going to win. The boxes are being ticked. He's worked out this Ironman, and now he's going to deliver with his talent. And Mark Allen said his exact words to Petereter were forget chris mccormack
Starting point is 00:52:45 he will not finish kona he's peaked done it's a downward slide too many races too many races too fit too early too lean too too too strong too early and i said to mark really you said that he's like mate you need if you want to win hawaii it needs to be a full year commitment you need to give up the racing you're doing you're over racing-racing. You don't need to win everything. You can't win everything. You want to win everything. You're a competitor. So your best bet if you have that I need to win everything mentality is race less.
Starting point is 00:53:13 Pick the ones you want to race and race less. But I was a big racer. I enjoyed 13, 14 races a year. And so I dropped an Ironman from the equation, Ironman Australia. I just raced Germany and Hawaii and hawaii and boom the success came immediately right yeah it's great it's interesting and and and uh and a good lesson in being flexible and nimble with your training and not being too attached to a certain way of doing things yeah and being willing to surround yourself with people that know more than you
Starting point is 00:53:40 and and and taking their advice we're just being to new ideas. I think the one big change when I ultimately went from the 2005 race, I'd always been a very aggressive biker and speaking with the guys around me, they were like, look, you need to have faith in your marathon. I was always scared of my marathon because it was so foreign to me. So their plan was to become a sit-in-the-front-group guy and run a fast marathon, which when you're a certain beast, a biker, and you've got people telling you to back a marathon that you don't really have faith in,
Starting point is 00:54:15 but you've empowered these people to give you the advice, it was a difficult shift. So in 2006, when I ultimately finished second to Norman, I gave him a big lead. I just sat in the group and did nothing and ran the fastest marathon again. But I finished second. I reinvented myself. I became a runner.
Starting point is 00:54:33 2007, that same approach took me to a title. It wasn't popular with the pros. If you remember in 2006, I had a big fight with Stadler and Farris because I'd always ridden with these guys and been a workhorse with them. And that year I decided I'm not doing anything. Let them go. Let them go. I'm going to sit in the group.
Starting point is 00:54:51 I'm going to run with the fastest marathon. That was the Mark Allen approach. It's one cone or more approach. This running approach is one cone or more than any other approach. So we went with that. And that takes patience and it takes confidence. So all of that eroded confidence that you had in those years when you were having trouble in this race,
Starting point is 00:55:07 you had to regain that confidence to have the poise to sit back and trust that your run is going to be there and watch them ride away from you. I mean, that's got to be a scary thing. Very scary because I talk about that period. It's easy to talk about in reflection, but I hadn't won the race yet. In 2006, when I'm backing this new strategy i still without a kona title and you got the people around me saying we need to back your run we need to work on your run i'm like
Starting point is 00:55:34 you sure i've been so successful winning ironmans around the world with this bike approach and hanging on in the run you want me to ride softer off the bike, give these guys a big lead? They're pretty good runners as well and execute the fastest marathon. What if I can't do that? And we ultimately built this new engine that took me to the title. Now, when Crowey came along, Craig Alexander is a faster runner than me in Hawaii. When you turn the heat up, I had to reinvent myself again. I cannot get off the bike with this guy
Starting point is 00:56:05 i was successful in 2007 in a in a match race but the man hurt me and then he progressed as an ironman athlete became the best runner in kona i believe we've seen since mark allen i couldn't pack that approach i had to go back to a riding approach and and and be a different racer again they're difficult decisions to make because you've got to reinvent yourself and you've got to back that approach. And that's the biggest message I want to say to people is that if you have a training strategy or plan, you can't second guess it. You're all in. And this is the approach I'm going to take to my next race.
Starting point is 00:56:39 I'm not going to second guess it. I don't care what my training partners are doing. This is my approach. And, yeah, Craig Alexander made me reinvent myself and go again and now he's at that phase now where he has to look at what he's doing he had to become a better biker yeah he's given up a bit of his run but the racing is always evolving so you have to be able to evolve with the racing thanks mac next up is a clip from a conversation I had with my friend, ultra runner and fruitarian Michael Arnstein. So when did you start getting into ultra running and how has that kind of evolved over the last couple of years?
Starting point is 00:57:20 I mean, I can't even keep track of all your top finishes. It's like it's too much work for me. I mean, I can't even keep track of all your top finishes. It's like it's too much work for me. When I got into the marathon running and I eventually hit that sub 230, I kind of said, well, maybe I should try to run a 224. And I think I could run 224 on a faster course and perfect weather. And I said, nah, you know, I'm really – the sub 230 was what I wanted. I did that a couple times, and now I wanted to move into a new challenge. And then the ultra running was like, wow, that's tough. You know, I've done the Ironman.
Starting point is 00:57:48 That's a tough, that's an ultra. But, like, wow, could you imagine a 100-mile run? Like, that's, like, incredible just to wrap my brain around that. And I really, really got into that challenge. And I started running the ultras. And every single year that I've been on this diet, I have improved in performance, which I think is important to note. And I most recently ran the eighth fastest American time ever at the 100-mile distance, 12 hours, 57 minutes.
Starting point is 00:58:16 I did that in December 2012, which is 7.45 per mile average for 100 miles. That's absolutely insane. And I ran the last marathon just at three hours. That is amazing. So I was, you know, I'm running, I'm at mile 78 and I'm running six thirties and I'm, and I'm feeling good. Not only that, it sounds like, I mean, most people will, will run a hundred miler, you know, they'll peak for it and they'll do maybe one a year or two a year,
Starting point is 00:58:45 and it seems like you're racing. Like, you're doing, how many hundreds have you done in, like, the last 12, 18 months? Yeah, I mean, the recovery, obviously, is just second to none, eating this way, and I've proven that, and I can stand tall and say it's true, because I raced, I think, 1,400 miles in 2012. I was, in 2012 I was basically every weekend I was doing a you know an ultra a marathon and not just doing it you know kicking ass winning top three doing really well and the only reason I wouldn't race more is because uh I've got three kids and a wife and you know it's uh I've got a business to run and but i i just love to get out there and just go and and after a hundred mile run um i literally in within you know 24 to 36 hours i don't i don't feel like you're not 100 miles and i'm proving it i i ran the i ran lead bill
Starting point is 00:59:38 and then um two days later i ran a 239 marathon and won it. Wow. And I could have run faster, but I didn't need to because I was winning. Tell people who might not know what Leadville is. Leadville is considered a quite difficult 100-mile race at altitude in Colorado. It's a trail race. Very high altitude. And I finished as high as fourth place there, under 18 hours. And then within days, i feel like i'm ready to get ready to rock right but come on this is preposterous right yeah right where are you
Starting point is 01:00:12 getting your protein come on yeah where am i getting my protein and getting i'm getting my protein the same place that other animals are in nature getting their protein from plants and it all starts the lowest common denominator you know carnivores are eating animals that are all made of protein but all those those land animals are eating plants to build all that protein so the cow the horse the rhinoceros the dinosaurs they all ate plants and those those plants have amino acids which those animals can synthesize into proteins. So it's, you know, the science is going to constantly involve of how people make their own protein and how it interacts on a molecular level or in their body,
Starting point is 01:00:53 and they're going to understand it at a much more advanced level in 20, 30, 50 years from now. And it's like, you know, does it even matter? Does it even matter to do these tests and these studies? Because, you know, it's like you just eat what's in nature as it's created. It's worked for, you know, all of eternity. And, you know, trying to break this stuff down and, you know, go and bring it into the laboratories is just, you know, it's just a waste of time. Well, it's also it's a complex system, you know.
Starting point is 01:01:26 a waste of time. Well, it's also, it's a complex system, you know, so I think we've seen that with supplements, when you extract a particular nutrient out of a whole food and take it as a supplement, it doesn't interact with your body in the same way that it does when you consume it in the context of a whole food. So it's a matrix. And, you know, I think to be able to fully understand it is, you know, I don't know if we're there yet, but I think that the touchstone of what you're getting at really is eat nutrient-dense foods that are low on the food chain, really. Yeah, simple stuff that's found in nature, and try not to make it more complicated than it needs to be. That's the thing that I think people struggle with, though,
Starting point is 01:02:00 is they think it is complicated because they think it sounds extreme, and I guess on some levels, when compared to the way most people eat you know you could characterize it as extreme and it just it scares people so you know how i mean it is extreme yeah extremely unusual to eat this way right in america in industrialized cultures and that's what people are are fearful of. Socially, it's totally different. Economically, it's extremely expensive, which is a whole other topic
Starting point is 01:02:31 and one of the main reasons why I think people really can't eat this way. But if you take yourself out of this matrix that we're living in of the way we think about food and you put yourself in a totally different environment, and I mean like you bring yourself back to nature, go to like a super remote area in a tropical region, very similar to where humans probably evolved, and you put yourself there,
Starting point is 01:02:59 and let's see how easy it is to make a fire in a tropical jungle where everything's wet. Let's see how easy it is to make a fire in a tropical jungle where everything's wet. Let's see how easy it is to catch animals to eat them. Let's see what you're going to be eating in that environment. And I've had the fortunate experience to do a lot of my business in a country called Sri Lanka in a very rural, very far-removed area in the world that hasn't been corrupted, where there isn't anything but maybe Coca-Cola, where people eat extremely simple. And when I go to this country on a frequent basis, I see how people eat. And I see their psychological culture around food.
Starting point is 01:03:37 And mangoes are growing everywhere. Papayas are growing everywhere. And coconuts are growing everywhere. And this is what people are eating as a primary source of calories. They're not thinking about Doritos or the supplements or, you know, am I getting enough protein? They're just eating what's free, what grows naturally, and what sustains them and is sustainable environmentally. And they're not scratching their heads thinking, what am I going to eat today? Am I getting all my nutrients?
Starting point is 01:04:08 They're all at a good, healthy body weight, body composition. Whether they're 70 or 18 years old, they're all basically able to function at the same level in terms of walking or carrying things. It's a sustainable way of life that's been going on forever. When I see that, carrying things and it's a sustainable way of life that's been going on for forever right and so when i see that it gives me a lot of confidence but like you know what it's not crazy to eat nothing but apples for you know a day or papaya or mangoes or lots of tomatoes it's like this
Starting point is 01:04:37 stuff's grown in nature and it sustains everybody if that's what they're eating because it's healthy and it's like man it's it's like stop trying to find ways of, you know, finding the problems with stuff and focus on just enjoying life. What would you say? I mean, there's this huge trend in diet right now to the kind of, hey, sweetie. It's okay. His daughter came. Sorry, my daughter.
Starting point is 01:05:00 It's all right. This, you know, low-car no carb, no sugar, no sugar, no grains kind of protocol, which, to be fair, is very focused on, you know, all the artificial sugars and all of our foods, but also kind of says, hey, even fruits are bad. Hey, even fruit juice is bad. You know, you got to stay away from all the fructose and all the sugar. And that's the, that's the roadmap to health. I'm not going to say that if you just eat, you know, bacon, eggs, and ham, um, you're not going to lose body fat. I mean, every, everybody I think sees that Atkins works to some level to lose body fat, you know, it's well, ketosis, it's just a physiological process that occurs when you're not eating
Starting point is 01:05:46 any carbohydrate, right? Yeah, I mean, you know, Shackleton went to, you know, to Antarctica and survived for, you know, I think like two years eating whale blubber and seals and stuff like that. I mean, the human body is incredible.
Starting point is 01:05:58 We can sustain ourselves on virtually anything. I mean, you can eat your shoes if it's made out of leather and like get by for quite a while. But I think it comes down to what's optimal, what's most mean, you can eat your shoes if it's made out of leather and like get by for quite a while. But I think it comes down to what's, what's optimal, what's most sustainable,
Starting point is 01:06:08 you know, in, in our, in our, in our world that we live in right now. And, uh, and what,
Starting point is 01:06:13 what's morally the right thing to do. So, so like I said before, even if it's, even if you could have better nutrition eating that stuff, you know, where's the discussion of this not being sustainable? There's too many humans on the planet. We can't eat animals consciously when we really care about our future generations.
Starting point is 01:06:33 It's just we can't do it. So whether it's healthy or not, I just think it's a moot point. Well, there's also this debate about, you know, grass fed, grass fed beef and raising animals in a more ethical way. But I just kind of look at that and say, yeah, but you're still raising animals to slaughter them. You know, I mean, the end point is the same. They might have a brief, you know, somewhat happier existence. And and maybe there is an argument that that on some level that's more sustainable. But it's not a seismic shift in sustainability that I think we need. And given where we're headed, I mean, we're headed for a serious crisis point and how we provide food to this massive population that continues to explode in growth.
Starting point is 01:07:21 I agree. What are we going to do? What are we going to do? And the writing's on the wall. People only want to hear, you know, good news about their bad habits. And the reality is,
Starting point is 01:07:30 like, if fish might be really good for you, it might really be healthy. And I don't know all the science behind it and I'm not going to try to attempt to figure it out.
Starting point is 01:07:38 But there's no more fish in the oceans. And it's just, it's not a sustainable way to eat. It's if you really have compassion about future generations we've got to be eating raw plants in their in their whole natural state as they're grown in nature as our primary source of calories so i don't even i don't even try to argue the the points about all this stuff you know related to animal proteins or
Starting point is 01:08:06 oh you don't get any b12 in your diet well it's like okay so i take b12 supplementation because because whatever whatever the science is i actually not getting enough b12 and how i'm eating it could be related to the fact that i you know eat too much conventionally grown food maybe it has to do with the fact that my food's just too clean because there's just no dirt on it, and the bacteria's in the dirt. Maybe I should be eating some bugs on my produce, but since I'm washing all the bugs off, I don't know all the science behind it. I try to eat whole foods.
Starting point is 01:08:38 If I need to take a B12, I'll take a supplement. I'm not going to start eating fish and red meat because that's just a whole other discussion about something that's not sustainable in my mind. to take a B12. I'll take a supplement. I'm not going to start eating fish and red meat because that's just a whole nother discussion about something that's not sustainable in my mind. Thanks, Michael. Next in the queue, we've got Mishka Shubali, also an ultra runner, a writer with a new Kindle single out, and my brother from another mother. And honestly, you know, you can't sustain any kind of lifestyle change anyway unless you inherently want it inside of you.
Starting point is 01:09:10 Yeah, I mean, that's the thing is you can't, it's incredibly difficult to force someone to change and even if you force them to change, it's not going to stick. It's not going to, no, of course not because they're not doing it for the right reasons they're doing it to please somebody else rather than they're not internally driven to do it like oh i don't want my wife to leave me so i'm going to change well that's you know although i understand that and it's not a bad reason but the chances of that um being a
Starting point is 01:09:40 sustainable change are not good you you can't force someone to want to change and you know and i and i think that you know she recognized that and it's it's funny i mean you know i mean it's a it's a very big very like gracious gesture that you make by saying that like none of this would have happened without her but i think that also that's it speaks to your strength as a writer because that's totally transparent in the book and you may, you know, you make it abundantly clear, you know, to readers that like that, that this is a group effort, you know, that she, that she really had your back at every step. Yeah.
Starting point is 01:10:16 And I acknowledge the support. I mean, left to my own devices. I mean, you know, I'm pissing the bed and eating Jack in the box and living like, you know, like a, like a Hobbit, you know, in like 10 day old underwear. I mean, you know, it's like, I'm not good on my own, you know, I don't trust myself. So what I meant to say is I have no idea what you're talking about, Rich. I've never been like that. I don't. Um, yeah, but, um, no, it's, it's true. And, uh, she, uh, yeah, she actually wrote a blog post on that very subject that was on mind, body green that did really well, kind of like,
Starting point is 01:10:53 you know, navigating relationships and pitfalls in relationships and like how she kind of approaches me when I'm difficult, which is, you know, on a regular basis and, and her ability to kind of like just be non-plused by whatever I'm doing and kind of like, Hey man, that's, that's you, you know, don't, don't invade my space, you know, with whatever nonsense that you're coming, you know, at me with, whether it's negative energy or, or, or whatever it is. And she's, you know, it takes a strong constitution for that. Yeah. Yeah. And so I'm lucky, you know, I'm like, I'm, I'm blessed in that regard, you know, and I realize not everybody is in a relationship like that and I don't take it for granted. I, um, you know, more than one
Starting point is 01:11:38 friend has commented to me that I'm an angry guy and that I get angry easily. And that, you know, the, when I get angry, it's, it's explosive, you know? And, um, and that's one of the things that like, that's one of the things about getting sober. That's tough, man, is because, you know, back in the day when, when I got mad, I'd have a drink and I'd feel better. Or when I got sad, I'd have a drink and I'd feel better. Or like when I was, when I couldn't get to sleep, I'd have a couple of drinks and then I could sleep. And when I couldn't wake up, I'd have a drink and that would wake me up, you know? And, you know, and then I got to the point where I was taking all these different pills and stuff too. Like, oh, I'm too stressed out. I'm going to take a Xanax. You know, I need
Starting point is 01:12:22 to like, you know, I need to do a line in order to get through the show or whatever and then then when you get sober you're left with nothing right all your medicine is taken away i mean you used you used all these substances to manage your emotional being and you know it worked for a while or obviously you wouldn't have you know done it as long as you did and then it stops working and then you're faced with this dilemma, uh, you know, and, and this letting go process. And then you're, you have that momentary elation of being sober and you know, the great accomplishment that that is, and then that wears off and then you're like, now what? You know, I'm, you're, you're like we said before, you know, a raw nerve without the, without the tools to kind of deal with those emotions when they come up. And, you know, I, I think that it gets into a little bit, I mean, for me and,
Starting point is 01:13:10 you know, without kind of like, you know, breaking anonymity or whatever, I mean, I work like, you know, I work a certain program that works for me, you know, and, and I know that you have a kind of a different approach to your sobriety, but I know that if I'm not using the tools that I, you know, that I learn and that I utilize, uh, you know, in the rooms, as they say that, you know, I'm in trouble. Yeah. And, you know, listen, I mean, I, um, it's funny, you know, when, when you, when you do something that people take attention to, you often become the poster boy for several different causes, some of which you, you don't support or you you're uneasy, you know, uneasy with the amount of support, you know, you're uneasy in the way you've been cast. Um, I, you know, I, yeah,
Starting point is 01:13:56 I quit, you know, I stopped drinking on my own. Um, after I had been quit for a little while, um, I started going to talk therapy and that, you know, and that was helpful for a little while, you know, the counselor I was talking to wasn't incredibly helpful. Um, and then I switched and started talking to another counselor and that was better. But, um, you know, I didn't, um, you know, I didn't go through any sort of, you know, peer network or I didn't go to any kind of group or group therapy or anything. Um, you know, I didn't go through any sort of, you know, peer network or I didn't go to any kind of group or group therapy or anything. Um, you know, and so a lot of people look to me as the guy who's, you know, going to, you know, sort of puncture this horrible organization that is AA.
Starting point is 01:14:37 And that's not how I feel. You know, I, um, I have a lot of friends in the program and I think there's a lot of wisdom that's come out of it. Um, me who I am this sort of, you know, pigheaded guy that I am, I got to do it my way, man, you know? And that's, and that's the only way it was going to work for me. And, you know, if I had to like, if somebody, you know, if I had to get sober in, in jail, then it would have lasted until I got out. And, uh, you know, and if I, especially if, if in the early days I had people telling me, um, you've got to do it a certain way, you've got to do it a certain way. I would have just, that would have driven me right back to it, you know? Yeah. And I'm not here to, you know, to judge you in any respect. I mean, you've
Starting point is 01:15:32 stayed sober for four years and you've, you've, you've found a way that works for you. And, and, uh, you know, I have no opinion on that. I just, I just know for myself, um, opinion on that. I just, I just know for myself, um, my way is usually not the right way, you know? And I think, and I tried my way, you know, for many years, uh, you know, I didn't want to, I didn't want to come into AA. I wanted to do it myself. And I had my ideas about how I could solve the problem and none of those worked and the hole just got deeper. And it wasn't until I got to a place where I was able to kind of quash my ego and say, you know, well, maybe there's a better way or set aside my notion of what I thought was best and, and, and really, you know, not try to will myself into the solution, but to, you know, surrender and allow other people to help me and to take direction and to kind of have that humility, which is not, you know, my default setting by any stretch of the imagination, um, was when, you know, I, I allowed this solution to take root and that's what worked. That's what's worked for me and continues to work for me. Yeah. And I mean, it's funny, um, you know, what you said, you know,
Starting point is 01:16:43 about having no judgment. I mean, that's, that's exactly the same way that I feel, funny, you know, what you said, you know, about having no judgment. I mean, that's exactly the same way that I feel, you know, towards you. Actually, no, it's deeper than that, which is that I support you no matter what way you're using to make your life better. make your life better, you know? And that's the thing is that if, you know, if someone, if someone gets sober by doing jigsaw puzzles four hours a day and like, that's their thing, I'm for it. I support it. You know, whatever, whatever process you need to, you know, to feel better, to live better, to have a more fulfilling life, whatever works for you, I totally support, you know? And, um, one of the, one of the most interesting stories that I've sort of run into, um, after the publication of the long run is, uh, my friend Gerard in Portland. And I've met him a couple of times, you know,
Starting point is 01:17:46 when I was like on tour and stuff like that. Big boy, like over 400 pounds. I think he's lost 80 pounds to date, which, you know, just blows my mind. I mean, it makes me think that like what I did of like, you know, stopping drinking and, you know, running a couple of 50 mile races is like, you know, stopping drinking and, you know, running a couple of 50 mile races is nothing, you know, because when I think that's one of the things that we're for, you know,
Starting point is 01:18:14 that you and I are fortunate in, um, you know, being primarily drunks is that you don't need alcohol from day to day to live, you need food but you need food yeah so you know and food is you know i look at i tend because of my experience i tend to look at a lot of things through the prism of addiction and recovery and and it you know the kind of longer I sort of walk this path, the more I'm convinced that, you know, it transc foods that don't serve us or exercise or gambling or, you know, porn or whatever it is, like whatever your kind of vices or your secret is or whatever. I think that, you know, it's, it's rampant. And I think that, you know, it's sort of like the analogy is sort of like, you know, in the seventies when, you know, they called smoking a habit and, you know, nobody, the, the idea that like nicotine was addicting was not even part of the discourse, you know?
Starting point is 01:19:30 And it's sort of like, oh, you know, I have this habit of watching reality TV or I've, you know, I have this habit of doing this or that. And it's like, no, actually, you know, you, you need to look at it like these things really are just because of their behaviors and not substances. They have equal power over us, you know, and somebody who, you know, I have a friend who, who, uh, has been sober a long time. And so we're like 21 years, uh, amazing guy, uh, former heroin addict. And he's like, I never thought that anything would be harder than kicking heroin, but I'm having such a hard time with food. Like I just can't solve this problem, you know?
Starting point is 01:20:09 And he's finally starting to really realize like how his relationship with food is addiction based and breaking those patterns because you do have to eat every day can make your life really unmanageable and the health consequences are profound yeah i um it's ironic i for the last couple of months i've been working with my my buddy uh jed collins who works uh who lives downstairs who's a uh he's a comic artist um so we're putting together a comic book uh from a story that i wrote 10 years ago 15 years ago um you know and it basically follows you know there's one episode
Starting point is 01:20:53 when i was a little kid where i like stole a big bag of chocolate chips and then my mom busted me with them uh downstairs you know just sort of like like chocolate all over my face it was like the summertime and i think i was like the i think the only thing that i had that had pockets was my winter coat so i like put my winter coat on so i'm way too hot in my winter coat with you know chocolate chips in my pocket like chocolate all over my hands my fingers all over my face and she just she just had this response like when she caught me that she was like oh no like what's coming you know and i think she knew then that i was going to wind up to have big problems down the line issues yeah you know and um and i i still you know i have a i have a friend who i just love to death who's in the program and uh you know he and i used to be drinking buddies and um he actually taught me
Starting point is 01:21:57 how to drink and uh to watch him eat is like it brings me right back to when we would go out drinking together. And just be like, bring me four Jack and Cokes. And to see him stirring a big thing of ice cream with a Snickers bar and putting honey on the ice cream and stirring. Right. I mean, that's an unhealthy relationship with food, right? ice cream with a snickers bar and like putting honey on the ice cream and stir right i mean that is you know that's an unhealthy relationship with food right there and yeah you know and when you're you know when you're an addict or an alcoholic and you remove the substances again it's like the behavior patterns are still there you know like there's work that needs to be done to modify that when i was when i was talking about that my mouth started watering
Starting point is 01:22:45 because i was like oh shit that sounds really good yeah i mean you know it's it's powerful for sure i mean you know and when you were talking about your anger issues and you know i mean sort of like what are the tools that you use to quell that or manage it? Or, you know, what is your plan for, you know, overcoming that or transcending this, you know, behavior pattern that isn't serving you or is, you know, causing you, you know, is disruptive in your life? Rich, I'm starting to figure it out, man. I'm starting to grow up. I think I've grown up from, uh, uh you know 13 to maybe 15 now and i i'm i'm proud of myself for that i um a a big thing is it's not unfamiliar for me anymore so now when i when something happens and i get angry it's like oh i i I'm ready for this. You know, it's, it's the,
Starting point is 01:23:45 uh, it's the enemy I know versus the enemy I don't know. And, um, you know, when I, you know, when I got really mad before I would just, you know, go out and run until I couldn't run anymore, like do pushups until I couldn't do pushups anymore. And, and I think those are fine outlets because, um, you know, that's a great way to get motivated for a workout. But it's not always. And it's better than picking up a drink or, you know, popping a pill. But I think the, you know, and I think this is a part that, you know, the place in our lives that we're both in now is we're trying to sort of narrow the aperture, you know, so you get alcohol out of your life. And that's a huge step, you know, and then it's you get alcohol out of your life and that's a huge step,
Starting point is 01:24:25 you know, and then it's breaking that like food addiction. That's another huge step. And, you know, you just sort of like, you know, each day or each month or each year, just get a little bit better. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, they say the road gets narrower, you know what I mean? Because certain things that used to not bother you that, you know, narrower. You know what I mean? Because certain things that used to not bother you that, you know, in your behavior or should speak for myself, um, then suddenly they become bothersome to me. Like, you know what, that's no longer, it's no longer acceptable to me that I do this, whatever it is. And then it's like time to look at that pattern. But it's also like squeezing a water balloon, you know, like once you feel like you've pushed down and gotten a hold on one kind of thing, then it pops out, you know, somewhere else. And so there's no destination, you know,
Starting point is 01:25:10 it's a life journey, uh, that will never be fully mastered by any stretch of the imagination. So it's just about, you know, what is the progress that you can make and where are the improvements, you know, where, where do I need to be? What do i need to be working on next that is that you know the next frontier yeah and it's you know it's like um something that annoying mantra that your buddy kept throwing in your face you know that's why they call it a challenge it's like it's hard but like it's hard because it's supposed to be hard. If it was easy, it wouldn't be worthwhile. And am I going to be fighting this fight for the rest of my life? Yeah. Am I up for it?
Starting point is 01:25:52 Hell yeah. It's worth doing, man. I mean, I really just went from, I couldn't even hold down a job in a bar. you know i couldn't even hold down a job in a bar and and you know the guys at the bars were always like so nice when they fired me or usually they were you know and it was just sort of like you know just like like the shrug and the smile like what he wants to do yeah yeah like you know and i know what you're doing yeah i uh and it's that thing like here's something I wanted to get – I didn't mean to interrupt you. I had one boss once who said, we just feel like you don't care. I was like, bingo.
Starting point is 01:26:35 Yeah. Thanks, Mishka. Now we've got Australian television host, Usher Gunzberg. Go back to where, like, where was the switch from, oh, I don't even know if I want this, don't know if I can have this in my life, to, you know what, yeah, I do want this.
Starting point is 01:27:00 What was, like, I'm asking because there are a lot of guys that go, oh, I don't know if I could ever do it. And they're too afraid to and all of a sudden they turn around and they're like, oh, shit, I'm 50. Right. And honestly, women too. Yeah. Well, I think it first started with being in a healthy relationship, you know, and that kind of like grounded me in a certain way and made me want to build on that. So the first part was, was being,
Starting point is 01:27:26 being healthy with my partner, you know what I mean? And that took a lot of work, like I said, to be able to kind of be in that space after never being in a healthy relationship my whole life. And with that grounding comes, I think a level of sort of settling or domestication where you get more comfortable with that idea. And then having the boys around going, yeah, I want to, I want to build this. I want more of this in my life. I mean, you know, I think that, that, uh, you know, for people that don't want kids, that's fine. That's a choice. I have no judgment on that. You know, the only thing that I can offer is that it makes me feel more complete, you know, it gives me purpose and grounding and and direction that
Starting point is 01:28:07 i don't think that i would have without kids and you know it's weird it's like uh you know if there's any kind of criticism from the book it's like you always get like a little bit of snark or whatever it's like oh this guy is like so irresponsible with his kids he just goes off and trains all day and like his poor wife and kids. And it's like, that's not what's going on at all. I mean, you've been around my family. You have a sense of like how we kind of function.
Starting point is 01:28:35 You know, there are times where I've put a lot of time into training, but never at the cost of my family and kids. And, you know, I would never sacrifice that for some midlife athletic goal. It requires work to be balanced in that regard. But I think that it makes me a more present partner and father for my kids. And that, because what you're're hearing what he's talking about like that the grounding and the focus and the direction that being a father gives you it sounds like something that you obviously so
Starting point is 01:29:17 you can't access any other way well i think that you know this sort of stereotypical fear reaction of having kids like oh my god my life is going to be over and I'm not going to be able to do all these things that I like to do. I mean, certainly, you know, trajectories change when you have kids, it's just by the very nature of there being another human being in your life, you know, that you're responsible for. Um, but, uh, my experience has not been that anything has ended. It's really just been enriched. And I think, again, it goes back to the things that I liked to do before I still do and your interests change.
Starting point is 01:29:57 Things I used to be interested in doing or thought that I would miss, I don't miss anymore. And how is it? There's a lot of the times and and i had the opportunity after after i got divorced i had the opportunity to live with a family a friend of mine she invited me to come live with her house and i lived in the back house and they had two kids and i got the opportunity to interact with a family that wasn't mine and kind of be around like as you say like a cool uncle whatever whatever. These kids were six and eight.
Starting point is 01:30:26 And it redefined my relationship to motherhood because I'd never seen another family work. And I was like, oh, right, it can be this way because I'm one of four boys. Mum raised us alone from when I was 11. It was like Lord of the Flies in my house. It was insane. It was awesome.
Starting point is 01:30:42 Mum did a great job man but it was pretty boys running crazy beating on each other yeah it was that yeah we went through a lot of holes in the walls um but a lot of people tend and you see it often people tend not to be able to just to break away from their what they knew it's like with eating you know they this is what they learned about being in a family so when they have their own kids this is what they do about being in a family. So when they have their own kids, this is what they do. And they just do it because their dad always did it. Have you found yourself redefining your relationship with fatherhood and fathers being a father now? Yeah, definitely.
Starting point is 01:31:13 And I have to attribute Julie with a lot of that kind of sort of program busting. You know, I come from very loving parents who took care of me and provided all of my needs. And, and, you know, it was very kind of, um, upwardly mobile, suburban and not, not like wealthy, but like, you know, we didn't have to worry about it. Uh, you know, my parents were able to send me to, you know, a really nice high school and, and all that kind of stuff. And, and, uh, it was very conventional and, and basically conservative. And Julie's kind of like comes from a completely different life experience. Like she grew up,
Starting point is 01:31:52 she's half Chilean. She grew up in Alaska. She's the youngest and just ran wild over these glaciers as you know, like she's got insane stories about when she's young and she has this ability to kind of see things differently than most people. And she has the courage and the backbone to say, I know everybody's doing it this way, but I'm going to do it this way, you know, and if you don't think I can, then just watch me, you know, and she's very strong and powerful in that way. And that challenges me because I'm like, wait a minute, you know, that's not how people do this. And we need to do it like this because I feel safe doing it this way. For example-
Starting point is 01:32:27 Like the food choices we were talking about before. Exactly. And this, so I guess the best example of this is we've made this decision to homeschool our kids, right? Which is a huge responsibility. And one that, you know, not a day goes by where I don't go, am I doing the right thing? Is this in their best interest?
Starting point is 01:32:44 Am I screwing them up or is this? And I've watched like, you know, the kids develop and I see them, um, achieving a level of maturity that I don't typically see in kids of that age. And I know I feel better and more secure about making this choice, but it is way out of my comfort zone. about making this choice, but it is way out of my comfort zone. Julie is convinced that, you know, we're doing the best thing for them. But because of my upbringing, it's like, I don't know. Like, you know, I'm used to, you know,
Starting point is 01:33:14 I wore a coat and tie to high school every day. So did I. Yeah, I went to that kind of high school. And so it's like, if we're not doing that, then like, what are we doing over here? Like, this doesn't make sense to me. And it makes me, but I think that you then like, what are we doing over here? Like, this doesn't make sense to me. And it makes me, but I think that you have to, you know, ask those hard questions and kind of challenge yourself to try new things. If you want quantum growth, you know, if you just want to, if you
Starting point is 01:33:37 want to be like everyone else and do what everyone else is, it's sort of like you get out of things, what you put into them. Right. And great entrepreneurs, you know, people that have, you know, changed our world have been people who have asked those hard questions and have boldly sort of said, I'm not going to do it that way. I'm going to do it this way. And maybe they've made enemies and made mistakes along the way, but they've had the kind of backbone to do something different. And I see that in, in Julie and it, and it helps me look at my life and the, and the choices that I'm making in a different way. And hopefully, you know, empowers me to do different things. And, and, you know, I think everybody needs to, you know, kind of question authority or question the status quo. You know know when you watch the news
Starting point is 01:34:26 at night like well what is behind that like why are they telling me this story and not this other story you know what i mean like kids when you watch the news with your kids yeah yeah yeah yeah awesome yeah i folks used to do that my mom always did that as well um so that leads me on to my next question uh about you know you talk about having this you my next question about, you know, you talk about having this, you just talked about having this, you know, this kind of reason for being with these kids in your life and you introduce yourself often as a recovering attorney. Yeah.
Starting point is 01:34:56 So a lot of people would think, what? You gave up being a lawyer? Yeah. This, by society perceives, it's like it's a bathtub that just drips water money yeah sorry it's a shower faucet that just just spurts out money when you're a lawyer so you you've got four kids mouths to feed yourself and your wife and you're like don't want to be a lawyer anymore that is a colossal that's like more intense than going i'm going to go do five Ironmans in five days. It's such an enormous, enormous leap to do. I think that when you want to do something with your life,
Starting point is 01:35:33 if you have kind of one foot in and one foot out, then it's not going to happen or you are not giving it your all, right? or you are not giving it your all, right? And, you know, I made a decision when the book came out and started getting, you know, kind of the reaction that it was getting. I felt that I had a responsibility, and it sounds weird, not like a calling, but like, you know, I, I felt compelled and I had the passion to try to take this message and, um, spread it as best as I could. You know, I mean, the emails that I get from people, it's just, it's very moving. And I, and I feel a responsibility as, um, like a career of the message to, to, you know, kind of seed that garden and, and help it grow. You know what I mean? I think people,
Starting point is 01:36:36 uh, there's a need for it and there's a sense of satisfaction that comes with participating in this dialogue that I don't get, you know, from practicing law. Um, and it's a hard, it was a hard rot decision. Certainly I can go back to doing it, you know, should I need to, it's not like, it's not like I can't go back to being a lawyer. Um, but I made the decision to not try to do both because I wanted to commit myself to this completely. And it hasn't been, you know, a bed of roses. You know, it's like we got a late start today because on my way back, my car broke down. You know what I mean? And right now, like, quite honestly, like, I don't have enough money for a new transmission.
Starting point is 01:37:25 And Julie just left to go call AAA and get it towed over to the gas station. You know, it's like, I'm watching every penny. And we're making it work. But it's a warrior path, dude, you know. And it is, you know, I think an outsider can look at it and go, Oh, well he, you know, good for him. You know, he wrote a book, he goes around and do all this must be nice. You know, it's like, it is freaking hard. And I, and I'm working my ass off, you know, harder than I ever did as a lawyer to try to figure out how to systematize this in a way that
Starting point is 01:38:00 I'm still being responsible to my family because that comes first. And if that begins to suffer and I have to go back to practicing law, then I will do that. That's fine. That's my obligation as a responsible, fiscally responsible parent. But I'm really trying to give this a go. It seems that you've got this kind of skill set
Starting point is 01:38:20 of the determination and ability to to as we talked about earlier overcome the automatic negative thought that you can apply to either running up a mountain cycling across a lower field or going you know what i'm going to take this path and would you say there that it's it's a similar it's it's endurance but it's just you know it's using the same part of your brain oh yeah there's no yeah there's no question about it's just, you know, it's using the same part of your brain. Oh, yeah. Yeah, there's no question about it. Like people have been asking me, well, what's your next race or when are you going to race again? And I keep saying, well, I haven't signed up for anything or I just haven't found the thing that inspires me, you know, the way that I was inspired to, you know, take on this Ultraman challenge.
Starting point is 01:39:06 this Ultraman challenge. But I think the truth is, is that all of that kind of verve and, and enthusiasm and passion is really directed now towards this message. Like all of the energy that I put into training for Ultraman, like that, that sort of super keen, you know, Compton Rom laser pointed at the cloud is like, is now directed at things like doing the podcast and going out and speaking to people and meeting people and trying to help people improve their lives. That's my ultra matter. Even though you said, and really thank you for being so candid about talking about where you are in life at the moment. There's somebody listening to this right now
Starting point is 01:39:45 who's sitting in an office cubicle or working in a mobile phone store or something that just goes, bah. What would you say to them? That they've got a dream of doing something else. And even though now you've made that leap and now the net is there. So what are you saying? My question is what would you say to, like, for example, for me,
Starting point is 01:40:07 I was at this point in Australia with my career and I'm like, you know what, I've got to go to America. That's the next move. That's where it's going to be. Yeah. And I committed and I'm here and career momentum in Australia died down as it does and I'm here and I'm working real hard to make stuff happen over here but I can't do it any other way.
Starting point is 01:40:26 I can't have a foot in both countries. No, you can't. You can't be afraid to fail. But I've had the benefit of I put money in the bank. I saved up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What would you say to someone who's listening to this right now going, yeah, I would change jobs or I would move my career or I would do because but i can't because of it yeah i know i get it i mean i think
Starting point is 01:40:50 that you know when i when i was uh you know buckled over on the staircase and realized they needed to change my diet that you know did i have a flash i would be sitting here with andrew g doing a podcast right now he's like you know you can't predict the trajectory of your life because it is composed of tiny moments aggregated over time so to somebody who feels stuck um you know the way out is to just begin doing something you know whether it's hey go to the bookstore and buy The Artist's Way. And when you wake up in the morning, write three pages down. You know, that's a start. You know what I mean? That's actually a massive thing to do, a massive change, you know. And over time, you start to string together tiny little seismic shifts like that. And you'll look back a year
Starting point is 01:41:42 later, two years later, later five years later and your life will have taken on a completely different color and so in that point on that path the idea of deciding not to do laurie was just another step on that path that was it or was it it was obviously a bigger step but you didn't just wake up and go that's it i'm not gonna do no no no i mean i've been trying to find a way out of practicing law for a very long time but i tried to do it with one foot in and one foot out like hey i'm, I'm just going to do a little bit or, you know, and then the phone would ring and I'd get sucked into doing some project because somebody was paying me. So a lot of it has been about creating a foundation that made it possible for me to generate income from other sources,
Starting point is 01:42:20 which I spent a lot of time creating that foundation before I turned the faucet off on the law. And then also it's about healthy boundaries too and learning how to say no. You know, for me, if somebody wanted to offer me a gig, even if it was working for horrible people, you know, I would say yes because my self-worth was it might be the last gig anybody ever offers me and I'm lucky to get it. Yeah, yeah, for me. So there lucky to get it. Yeah. Yeah. For me. So there's an esteem issue built into that. And as you start to develop greater self-esteem by doing esteemable acts, you have an opportunity to create healthier boundaries around yourself. And a lot of times that involves learning how to say no to opportunities that might seem attractive in a short-term way, but aren't actually serving your longer-term vision for what you want your life to be.
Starting point is 01:43:09 Thanks, Osher. Next up, we have author, Ironman triathlete, vegan, and frontman of the iconic punk rock band, the Cro-Mags, John Joseph. John Joseph. But let's say, like if someone's listening to this and they're eating the standard American diet and they're like, this guy sounds like he believes what he's saying, but like, you know, like what does he mean? Like give me an example of, I mean, the fighting thing, the violence thing, I mean, that's palpable. But like when you say, oh, I'm taking in a different vibration and that changed the way that I felt or my consciousness. Like what, you know, like can you be more specific about that yeah it was uh i don't know it was like this heavy you know just from eating that food it was like this heavy like angry like you know every fucking little thing got
Starting point is 01:44:00 under my skin and like i think that too was the background but what i tell people now is i say yo give it a try for like two weeks and watch what happens i try to be practical about it i was like everybody's not gonna have the same experience as i had but i guarantee you if you do what i tell you like even when i wrote in meters for pussies, I'm like, dude, be a fucking scientist. What is a scientist? You have a formula, you apply it, and you get a result. Don't alter the formula. And I'm telling you, if you take this formula and you apply it as is
Starting point is 01:44:37 without altering it, this is the result you're going to get. And what is the formula? And the formula is eliminate animal fucking products from your fucking diet. You know, sit down, stop, get out of like Bob Marley says, this is the rat race. Start taking fucking inventory of what your life is about. Slow the fuck down. We've been created like these cogs in a machine to just go, go, go. Go where?
Starting point is 01:45:07 Where the fuck are you going? Take inventory of your life and what the fuck you're doing. Where are you going? Who am I? What's the purpose of life? To make a lot of money? You know why there's no fucking racks on top of a hearse? Because you can't take it with you. That's not the goal of fucking life.
Starting point is 01:45:25 And then just start really taking inventory. Go do a meditation class. You know, go, you know, start meditating on your own in your room like I did. Just stop the incessant flow of fucking bullshit that's being constantly... There's a reason these lower vibrations are being fucking pumped at you constantly. Text messaging, Twitter, Google, TV, radio, commercials, flashing everywhere.
Starting point is 01:45:56 It's all designed to entrap you in the Maya, in the illusion. And that's really what it boils down to. They have you in their fucking grip and the minute you extricate yourself from that situation and pull back question every fucking thing you're putting in your body from intoxicants to whatever guarantee you man i'm i'm just like the next motherfucker in line you're not gonna have the same experience as me because we have different backgrounds but i guarantee you you're gonna start to feel those similar higher vibrations and you only get those if you give up the lower vibrations that's what me and your wife right julie we were talking about that it's like you're being programmed constantly with all this fucking
Starting point is 01:46:42 shit by these like people that want to keep the masses ignorant because when masses are ignorant they could be exploited well and it's so easy to be on autopilot you know easier than ever because you're like you said you're inundated with so many messages that are subliminally subliminally subliminally you know guiding you towards these decisions that you're not even consciously making. We're getting ebonic here. That you spend your time. And you actually have to have like a spine to hit the brakes on that and like take stock and responsibility for those choices and decisions and look honestly at yourself and say, you know what?
Starting point is 01:47:21 Like, it is kind of bullshit that I'm spending all my time doing this or that. Well, you know what I say? That's hard. spending all my time doing this or that well you know what i say like it's like your book and certain books that have come out this book that book it's that proverbial like slap in the fucking face like when you see a bad b movie and the act the actress is fucking hysterical and fucking boom that's what this knowledge is it's that proverbial smack in the fucking face like wake up out of the fucking insanity you know the vedas say exactly what this is this is the kali yuga the iron age of quarrel and hypocrisy look at these fucking politicians and these motherfuckers that are doing all this shit monsanto all the rest of
Starting point is 01:47:58 them poisoning people for profit it's like you know these are fucking these are not nice people these are bad fucking people that are capitalizing just like i was talking about before the idiot cycle in this documentary that this woman traced all these companies putting out this poison can be traced back to the drug companies that profit off of the sales of their medicine to fight the diseases that their products cause right so these are not nice fucking people. So it's like, you know, the whole thing is to extricate yourself from all of that bullshit and just slow the fuck down
Starting point is 01:48:33 and take some inventory of what the fuck you're doing in this life. Yeah, and by doing that, then you allow yourself to get in touch with your authenticity and who you are, and then the next step is self-responsibility. So you have to make your own choices and your own decisions, but from a place of power and awareness and knowledge. Well, you know what I say? You can't stay stuck on stupid.
Starting point is 01:48:58 You can't. When you get the fucking knowledge, it's not just enough to have the knowledge. You have to apply the knowledge. We don't want armchair philosophers. We want motherfuckers that go out and do shit. Like, all right, you have this knowledge. I just learned something. Like, if I learned something, say, in triathlon or whatever,
Starting point is 01:49:18 I have to fucking then apply that shit when the moment comes up. You know, just like my friend, I ain't gonna lie, I had anger issues too. My friend was just like, yo, take a deep breath, step the fuck back, man, before you start swinging. Even up to the last six or seven years ago, I was getting in trouble with that
Starting point is 01:49:44 because people in New York especially would pop shit to you or whatever. I just knock a motherfucker out quick, elbow, whatever. And I stopped doing all that. First of all, it's very expensive because you get fucking sued and court cases and fucking all this shit. But the other thing is I had to control you know croda in sanskrit means the anger i i have that you know that's just that's that i mean you're hardwired for that you know for you to be able to overcome that i gotta keep that shit in control and channel that that all that energy i have that could go to something negative i gotta put that shit in
Starting point is 01:50:23 something positive like you know like even meeting the firefighter or whatever like just stopping motherfuckers and being like I mean just triathlon is that part of the triathlon equation for you 100% I mean when did that begin when did that whole thing start you know I kind of always wanted like I've always raced bikes and swam and fucking ran and did marathons and kept fit, was in the gym, martial arts, whatever. And I was like, I would always see the Kona, fucking Ironman, back in the 80s, the old days, Mark Allen, Scott Tinley, fucking all of those motherfuckers. And then I'd be like, I want to fucking do that shit someday. Like, wow, man. And see the Tour de Franceance in like fucking 83 whatever so then like in the last
Starting point is 01:51:08 couple years i just been like all right i want to start i want to take this shit up and then i was going to sid's and this dude larry was like yo sid's is the bike shop yeah this is a bike shop in new york pro shop you know there's they had an Ironman triathlon team, so my boy Larry that worked at SIDS was like, yo, there's this dude, Orion Mims, he's like, yo, he's a fucking stud, big brother, man, big black dude, all fucking inked up, realest motherfucker ever, and he's like, you know, he had a fucking rough upbringing too, the streets of New York and the fucking bad neighborhoods, he's like, yo, man man we're all fucking dealing with our demons man i have to fucking do iron man and train every day and he took me under his wing as like a coach and i just love the feeling of like
Starting point is 01:51:58 you know like to me it's just like i don't even care i'm not i know I'm not terrific at it. I finish. I start what I... But it's just part of the whole mindset of like, yo, I'm going to fucking be out there like 11, 12, 13 motherfucking hours. I don't care what it takes. I'm going to finish this. And that's what it's... And it just puts you in this... I mean, you know because you're at the top of the fucking game.
Starting point is 01:52:26 And it's like you get on this next level of consciousness, man. For me, something clicks in when I'm racing and training and I just love it. the camaraderie of I hate the douchebag cyclists and fucking douchebag runners and there's douchebags everywhere, even in fucking triathlon. I just don't – I like – I've met so many amazing people, though, that the whole fucking – the other motherfuckers, I don't even give two shits about because I'm like, yeah, okay, get off that bike and I'll fucking smash you in your face.
Starting point is 01:53:03 No, I'm just kidding. No, but I mean, I think there is. I've had that conversation. There is this, you know, there's definitely a relationship between kind of the pursuit of triathlon and the pursuit of kind of a higher state of consciousness. And all of that, you know, kind of Krishna meditation tools and yoga and all of that. I think they're very analogous, you know, kind of Krishna meditation tools and yoga and all of that. I think they're, they're, they're very analogous, you know, practices. Absolutely, man. I mean, that's the whole thing is like, I'm very regimented and military in my, you know, whole approach towards everything. Like my sadhana, it's called in Sanskrit,
Starting point is 01:53:42 like every day I fucking get up. I know I got to chant. I got to do this. I got to train. It's like I like to be regimental in the way that I approach things because for me, and they say it, the idle mind is the devil's workshop. If you ain't doing something positive, you're going to get involved in some bullshit, especially in this fucking city. So I just absorb my time either with writing my books, my screenplays, training for triathlon, mentoring other people.
Starting point is 01:54:12 I just raced for Covenant House. I raised $5,000 for them. So I'm always trying to fill my life up, fill the bowl with positivity, man. Do you ever? I've extricated myself from so much bullshit because I just don't hang out anymore at all. Do you ever get frustrated with all the things you have to do on a daily basis just to feel like normal or grounded?
Starting point is 01:54:40 No, because it's kind of like part of my makeup. It's in my DNA at this point i i don't even feel like i never get the feeling like oh my god i have to do all this shit today i'm like i love doing it i love waking up turning on my computer chanting doing my fucking training uh you know going out to feed the homeless whatever whatever whatever it is that's on on the fucking chalkboard for the day. You know, I just I kind of embrace every day, man. Like, well, that's just that's a that's functional practicing of gratitude, right? Gratitude and action.
Starting point is 01:55:24 Yeah. And service with all this all the giving back i mean not for nothing dude you're a huge inspiration to me i look to like guys like you and brendan brazier and scott jurick and the rest of them that's out there you know even like i was telling you about david goggins like right even when i was having my toughest days training i just was because my boy days training, I just was, cause my boy is a seal. He's friends with him.
Starting point is 01:55:52 And I met David when he tried to do the chin up record at Rockefeller and he tore his bicep. But like, you know, I look at dudes who are just pushing the fucking envelope and I'm like, you know, who am I to complain about anything? I never take that victim role, man. Like, Ooh, you know,
Starting point is 01:56:06 it would be such an easy cop-out. I know a lot of people that come from my background that became scumbags and justified doing fucked up shit to people because they had it rough. I don't never take that cowardice path. I'm like, you know,
Starting point is 01:56:22 it's really to show people, look, man, if I made it through all this, you know, you can too. That's the last thing that I wrote in my book is the true code of the warrior is like never give up, you know. Thanks, JJ. Next up, we have plant-based Ironman and weight loss surgeon, Dr. Garth Davis. Here's one of the biggest things. People think, and I hear this all the time, we are carnivores. And I always wonder where that comes from. Who looks at us and sees carnivores? Look at your dog. I've got a Great Dane, so I look at my dog all the time. I'm very fascinated in the
Starting point is 01:57:06 difference between a true carnivore, which it is. And by the way, having a carnivore as a pet and being vegetarian, it's very hard to feed the pet. Nothing worse than buying your dog a trachea of a cow. That just really upsets me. But anyway, a dog, their mouth cannot, first of all, their canines are a hell of a lot different than my canines. We don't really even have canines. Ours are extremely small. They're better for biting into an apple than into a piece of meat. We don't have claws.
Starting point is 01:57:35 We can't tear apart food. We – in our mouth, in our saliva, we have amylase to break down starches. A dog doesn't have that or a lion doesn't have that. Lions and dogs make their own vitamin C. They don't need vitamin C. We need vitamin C. They have a very short intestinal tract because meat putrefies in the intestine. We have a very long intestinal tract like an herbivore in order to process carbs as they go through our system. Just about every facet of our enzyme production, of our anatomic, the way we grind food, the grinders that we have.
Starting point is 01:58:05 It shows that we are herbivores and not carnivores. And this idea, the one thing that gets me is this paleo idea. We need to eat like the paleo people did. Those were not healthy people many, many thousands of years ago. I think we should evolve. I mean, shouldn't we be evolving? Shouldn't we be getting better? I think we should be eating.
Starting point is 01:58:24 I mean, now we're in this beautiful day and age where we can have blueberries and strawberries and apples and kale by the abundance. We should be living to 150. We should be healthier than we've ever been. We should be evolving and not devolving into a primitive-based diet. Who wants to be a caveman? I want to be a modern, healthy Ironman. Well, I love that. That was beautifully put. Thank you. But I also think there's a perversion of this paleo concept altogether. I mean, you know, were they really sort of gorging on meat?
Starting point is 01:58:57 You know, they certainly weren't eating, you know, processed bacon or anything like that. I mean, and I think for the most part, and obviously it depends on what part of the world they lived in and what was available and what had to be hunted and how difficult that was. But I would imagine that sort of, if you could make a generalization that meat was few and far between, and it was a result of a tremendous amount of effort to track it and capture it and all of that. But on a daily basis that, you know, sort of eating the low-hanging fruit, so to speak, you know, the sort of plant foods that were more readily available and accessible and could be, you know, even in a pre-harvesting culture, at least accessed and stored or eaten on a daily basis would have been the more predominant kind of day in day out diet
Starting point is 01:59:46 yeah and i think that's been shown they've done uh they've found uh vessels uh and like uh grinding instruments where they've actually kind of done carbon uh scanning electron micro i don't really complex stuff where they found that they were eating a lot of vegetables and that they were using these vegetables as their main staple of their diet, what they gathered. And that mainly gathering was actually the main part. But because the men did the hunting and the women did the gathering and the men got all the honor, there was honor in hunting when they did it. But, you know, honor there was honor and hunting when they did it um but you know uh the other thing is the food that they were eating i mean there is going back to that grass-fed like for instance in iceland they don't eat a lot of vegetables uh but they tend to get a lot of fish so they get a lot of
Starting point is 02:00:36 omega-3 and that seems to protect them somewhat from heart disease i mean they're not the healthiest people in the world but not as unhealthy as we. And they eat a lot of lamb and their lamb is really grazing on wild greens and their lamb actually has omega-3 in it. And so it's a little bit better. So going back to the point, these paleo people were eating, they weren't eating cows. I mean, the animals they were eating was nothing like a cow. These were wild, muscular animals without saturated fat, probably high in omegas from eating grasses. And it's totally different. I mean, for a paleo person to think that the bacon they're eating is in the remotely paleo
Starting point is 02:01:10 is just ridiculous. And then the other thing they do, I mean, one of the most amazing things to me that I can't believe is that they won't eat beans because they think that beans are part of the agricultural. Legumes are part of the agricultural revolution. That's what's hurt us. And yet the Blue Zone studies show that the number one food that's held the same in the different Blue Zones is legumes. I mean beans are about the healthiest thing you could possibly put in your body. And yet paleo people don't eat it for this ridiculous concept that it's because it's part of the agriculture. Yeah, I eat tons of beans. But isn't there something – what is this argument about the lectins? That somehow that contributes to leaky gut or something like that?
Starting point is 02:01:51 Lectins are – it's kind of a plant defense mechanism. And lectins kind of bind different nutrients. So it's called an anti-nutrient. But there's a few funny things about that first of all so beans overnight and sprout them and you've gotten rid of the lectin cook them and the lectins completely gone and no one eats raw beans you know we we sprout them and we cook them and whatever lectin is there one thing lectin does bind is an iron and it may be and this is really coming this is being fueled a lot by from actually from the anti-aging medicine anti-aging medicine is really starting to
Starting point is 02:02:31 kind of merge into nutrition science uh the one thing that's been merging to anti-aging is this idea that aging as they look at cells and the breakdown of cells that it might be over mineralization that's causing us to age and causing damage to our cells. And actually iron might be the biggest one of it. So it may be beneficial to have a little bit of a lower iron level. And the paleo guys miss this. Now, funny enough, some of the paleo guys that are like diehard paleo, they really crack me up. They're very funny. They will actually go and give blood because they say ancient paleo people They really crack me up. They're very funny. They will actually go and give blood because they say ancient paleo people were injured all the time and would bleed. And that might be
Starting point is 02:03:09 part of why they were healthy. And actually, maybe that was part of the reason they were healthy because they lost iron and iron excess. And this seems to be this like, oh, are you iron deficient? You need to be iron. You better get your iron. It may in fact be that having lower levels of iron is actually better for us. That's interesting. I've never heard that before. That's fascinating. There's a lot of interest in iron and heart disease, excess iron and heart disease. Yeah, because all you hear about is iron deficiency. And particularly when you're talking about a plant-based diet, people get really freaked out about that.
Starting point is 02:03:43 Yeah. And iron has been related to diabetes too. But I mean, a lot of the concepts, look, I mean, just about every concept. When I, when I counsel patients, I say, take every concept you think you know about diet. Like I say, first of all, they did a study. Do you know the Epic Panacea study? In a general sense. So Epic Panacea study, we were talking about the China study and you know, the, the, the whole online community loved to go after the China study.
Starting point is 02:04:08 And that's fine. The China study was old. The biggest study now, one of the most absolutely comprehensive studies ever done on diet and health is the epipanacea study. It was done by the European Union. Union. And the idea was, let's really follow people and what they eat through many years and see if there's a relation between food and disease and obesity, because they want to know why are people getting cancer in Europe and why are people becoming obese in Europe? And the study design is complex because it was done all over Europe and they use different food measurements at different parts because different societies had different ways of measuring their food. But anyway, they followed
Starting point is 02:04:48 500,000 people for 10 years. This is a very comprehensive study. And they found an absolute true correlation, an absolute correlation between meat consumption and weight gain. And the meat that was most correlated with weight gain, chicken. So our diet food, the food that we think is diet in America, is actually the food that may be causing the most weight gain in America. Wow, that's amazing. Yeah, it's amazing. And so I tell my patients, just take everything you think you know about diet. Milk is good for your bones. chicken is a great food to eat uh bacon's okay
Starting point is 02:05:27 take all these concepts and throw them out the door and the other concept that absolutely kills me is this concept that fruit is bad for you i mean if anybody tells you and you know this is populated by trainers it's always by trainers right this is a big thing right now just for people that are listening it's this idea that it doesn't matter where, you know, where the sugar is coming from. It could be a processed sugar. It could be an orange. Like I said earlier, it doesn't matter. Your body doesn't know the difference and it's all evil and you shouldn't have any of it. Right. Which is so strange because nature's design on how it delivers sugar to us with fiber through a slow, gradual process, almost like a slow release. A grape is like a slow release sugar, if you want to think about it like that, like a slow release pill, a perfect medium to give us sugar.
Starting point is 02:06:15 Not an ice cream that's going to dump sugar into you right away, but the slow release type sugar. And in fact, a recent study that just came out, I can't remember the journal, but it just came out, showed that actually fruit consumption is tied to lower rates of diabetes, especially grapes. And people always tell you don't eat grapes because it's the highest in sugar. Grapes were one of the highest correlated with decreased diabetes. Meanwhile, and people don't seem to know this, meat consumption is one of the highest correlations with diabetes there is. You would think it would just be all the processed sugar that was contributing to that. You wouldn't think meat. It's absolutely not. It's meat because the
Starting point is 02:06:55 meat consumption creates this inflammation we're talking about. And this inflammation creates insulin resistance. Chronic metabolic acidosis greatly affects muscle's ability to respond to insulin. And people don't realize this, but meat, everybody says, well, the big enemy is insulin. Like Robert Luster, the big problem in the world is insulin, which is kind of strange. Insulin is a growth hormone. We need insulin. Insulin is important. I could understand that chronically high insulins would be bad.
Starting point is 02:07:27 But does he know or has he not studied the fact that meat causes almost as much insulin rise as does fruit, if not more? Meat causes rise in insulin. Alanine, one of the amino acids, actually activates insulin. And so I just can't believe how little people know. And I just want to tell everybody, just stop and listen to the experts or actually do your research. And when I say do your research, don't read a journal article online abstract. I mean, you actually have to go through the whole body of knowledge that's out there. Yeah. I mean, and the truth is people aren't going to do that. You know what I mean? And they're relying on people like you to guide them straight.
Starting point is 02:08:07 And kind of alluding back to what we were talking about earlier, when you go online and you see so many different points of view and everybody's citing research, it just creates so much confusion. And that's kind of, you know, exactly where the food companies want you to be. It just perpetuates the status quo. And the problem never gets solved, you know, and it's like you're the rare voice, you're the outlier out there that we, you know, we need to hear you and people like yourself who can set us straight and help us cut through all of this confusion to just get down to what's actually going on and what the truth is. Yeah, well, I appreciate you giving me this form to do so.
Starting point is 02:08:45 And I'm going to keep shouting it from the rooftops as long as I can until we start making a difference in this country, because I can't imagine anything more important. I mean, we, you know, we talked about you at the very beginning, you're talking about what about the increase in preventative medicine? Western idea of preventative medicine is a mammogram. That's not preventative medicine. it's a diagnostic, early diagnosis. We really need to change the whole dictum of what preventative medicine is because the changes we can make in our society, not just in our health, but our economy, our environment. The meat industry is just absolutely destroying our environment.
Starting point is 02:09:24 There's just so much that can happen with the simple concept of understanding that we are herbivores and that we thrive as herbivores. Thanks, Garth. Next up, we have Olympic cyclist and life coach, Dr. Jeff Spencer. So you make the Olympic team in 72. Where were Olympic trials that year? That was in San Jose. And so you're doing in two events, right? You did tandem, which I want to talk about. Yes. What was the other one? Match sprint? Individual sprint.
Starting point is 02:09:56 Individual sprint. Okay. So the tandem racing is a trip. That's kind of the most dangerous thing I can imagine. I'm starting to break out in the sweat and goosebumps just talking about it. To kind of give you a visual picture of this, it's like you're traveling the equivalent of two football fields in like eight seconds. That's how fast you're going. And when you stick that in a bowl
Starting point is 02:10:18 that's banked 24 or 35 degrees, the G-loads are unbelievable. And you can actually hear the fatiguing of the frame. You can actually hear the metal fatigue and you can almost feel like. Right. Like the whole bike is just going to split. It is.
Starting point is 02:10:30 It's like screaming. Like you think to yourself, please stay together because sliding on, you know, asphalt or a board track for 200 feet isn't my idea of fun. And you think, cause you can almost hear the spokes wanting to pull out from the rim in the creaks and the groans. I mean, it's almost like the Titanic breaking apart, and it's the scent to the bottom of the floor. And it's hair-raising because you cannot hold anything back, obviously. You've got to find a way to transcend the fear of the potential of what could happen. And when you drove it like I did, you're responsible for the passenger in the back.
Starting point is 02:11:07 And so you've got to have immense commitment to an unknown without any reservation. It is terrifying. Right. It's terrifying. Did you ever crash? Not on the tandem, thankfully. We did actually.
Starting point is 02:11:20 I was in Munich, of all things. We had a back blowout, full speed. And what happens, the weight of the bike is so much because it's two people that it wants to throw the back end around in front of you. So as I felt it back end in front of me, I made an immediate left turn to go to the infield, hoping that there wasn't a training line below me in the pole. Right. Because it would have been a direct T-bone event that would have been catastrophic to everyone involved. Yeah.
Starting point is 02:11:47 I mean, how often were people wrecking in training rides or in racing doing that? You know, the flat tires are the ones you got to look out for because the bike's got momentum and you run high pressure on the tires so that you get the least resistance possible. So there's always that risk. The crash, obviously, and sprint cycling can be high because sometimes you have to under your opponent if you're at a disadvantage, and the risk is that you guys collide and you fall. So, again, there's always a fresh reminder based on the scars on the knees of where you've recently been and where you can go.
Starting point is 02:12:20 Right. And they ultimately outlawed this, right? How long after that did it become? been and where you can go. Right. And they ultimately outlawed this, right? Well, how long after that did it become? Well, the tandem actually got replaced in the Olympics by other events. So it didn't get outlawed. It just got replaced through a facelift of the competitions itself. Right. So you make the Olympic team in the tandem and in the individual sprint. Right. And you go off to Munich.
Starting point is 02:12:47 Correct. And that must have been, I mean, we all know the kind of stories and things that were going on in Munich. And I come from a swimming background, so I know everything about what happened swimming-wise. Yeah, Spitz and everything else. That was Spitz's big show. his big show. But what was it like to kind of, you know, when you see the movie Munich, I mean, is that, you know, what was it like to actually be there and experience that? Well, two things for me is that number one, the only reason I was able to go to the Olympics
Starting point is 02:13:13 was because of good mentorship. So everything that my mentors that helped me equipment wise and tactically and developing a body and a mind to be able to perform at that level and also to the American public through their contributions that enabled the financing of the team to be able to make that happen because they never could have done it on my own because of my family so once you get to the olympics when we went to washington dc to put away all our clothing and get new clothing that was an amazing thing because that's the first time in history that i've ever not had to worry about food i knew for at least a month i was going to be taken care of without ever having to give any consideration to where is food going to come from, where are we going to sleep.
Starting point is 02:13:52 So that was just a different experience for me. To get to the Olympics, to realize that you're competing at the highest level with the best of the best is obviously a great honor. It is obviously a great honor. And to see what other people did and to get a breadth of, again, having the opportunity to experience what your body is capable of at the highest level, it's like an amazing thing that I would hope everybody could experience because I had the opportunity to be able to explore that. And I took myself to my ultimate superhuman, super physical capacity. And it was an experience that I'll never forget because it gave me an inkling of what we are really capable of under the right circumstances. The event themselves was its own drama. I was 21 at the time, so I hadn't really reached my tactical or my physical peak. But I did enough to get through a couple of rounds to tell me that there was something there.
Starting point is 02:14:47 And I was very proud of that and knew that there was room to grow. Of course, the black spot of that was after the competition was over. One morning I went out. It was 7.30 a.m., and I could see my breath. And I noticed that there was a little crowd gathering in the Olympic Village, maybe 200 feet from me. So I walked over, and I said, what's up? And one of the persons that I was with took his finger, and he pointed up towards the second or third story of one of the apartment buildings, which was the Olympic Village. And I saw that there was some man up there with a ski mask over his face.
Starting point is 02:15:24 which was the Olympic Village, and I saw that there was some man up there with a ski mask over his face. And I realized that this was a terrorist event. And I also learned that there are two people that laid dead in the apartment building that got shot at 4.30 a.m. that morning that were laying dead inside the apartment building that I was looking at from a distance, a very close distance, by the way. And to try to wrap my reins around it was very difficult. But as the sharpshooters appeared on tops of the buildings in their sweatsuits with their military weapons and helicopters started showing up and the rumblings below in the parking lot that was under the Olympic Village, I realized the armored vehicles were starting to show up and the rumblings below in the parking lot that was under the Olympic Village, I realized the armored vehicles were starting to show up and that this was for real.
Starting point is 02:16:10 And I wasn't prepared for this. I'd seen it on TV, but I wasn't prepared for the reality of what this meant. And so how did the kind of U.S. team respond? I mean, were you immediately told to return to your dorm or how did it impact the rest of your experience being there? I felt that later in the day we weren't given any instruction, but I realized that to be there and my event was over would not add anything to what needed to take place. So we left the Olympic Village with permission and myself and a couple of other teammates and a couple of people. One of the teammates I was on the Olympics with, his mother
Starting point is 02:16:51 was from Munich, so that she had a vehicle that was able to arrange safe transportation for us to a safe location while this drama played itself out, which it did. And of course, we watched this very closely with great interest because we knew that we had nine brothers that were being held hostage. And when family members are held hostage, you pay attention. And the outcome of this was that we heard that they had been taken to the airport. we heard that they had been taken to the airport to be taken somewhere by the terrorists and that they were loaded into a helicopter. And it was a very tense time because you've got terrorists trying to figure out how do we get out of this and you've got the people in charge trying to figure out how do we contain this and how do we eliminate it as quickly as possible.
Starting point is 02:17:50 So one of the terrorists got nervous. He pulled a pin on a hand grenade and dropped it on the floor of the helicopter. Within one second, the helicopter was blown to bits. Nine family members had lost their lives. The athletes are there to compete. They don't care about politics. The family that celebrates the athletes being there, that mother will never hold that son and feel that heartbeat again.
Starting point is 02:18:20 The dad will never walk that kid down the aisle or see him graduate from college. And that's the carnage that the insanity of a changing world brings to the capacity of sport to be a stage to show the best and the worst of humanity. So I got a glimpse of the worst of it. I got a glimpse of the worst of it. But, Rich, there's a silver lining here to some degree, is that when I went back to the Olympic Village, wandering around, trying to wrap my brains around the insanity of what had just happened,
Starting point is 02:18:57 to realize that in an instant nine people were gone, a legacy and a history of the sport was being redefined, I needed some relief. And so there was an Olympic theater. There was a theater in the Olympic Village. So I said, man, I need a break here, man. I got to sit down. So I went into the theater.
Starting point is 02:19:16 And in the theater, it was full of standing room only athletes with their Olympic sweatsuits, all different colors. You see the big Russian weightlifters, the CCCP with the red hammer and sickle. You see the Kenyans with the green tracksuit with Kenyan yellow. It was like everybody there, and everybody was simultaneously laughing their heads off and experiencing a moment of intense joy and fellowship that transcended language. And I looked up on the screen and the movie was Charlie Chaplin's masterpiece, Modern Times. It was a silent movie. And I realized that the life experience transcends
Starting point is 02:19:58 words. And here we are, we were having a moment where everybody was part of the same fraternity performing at the highest level and speaking the same language without a word being spoken. So it was really a moment of seeing what human nature and humanity is capable of at the same time, the insanity on the other side of the spectrum of what's also possible. So, you know, it's crazy. It is this really strange, surreal mashup of sport and politics and tragedy and celebration and the Olympics being the one sort of global institution that is supposed to transcend politics, which emphasizes the severe tragedy of events when the intersection of politics derails something like that. You know, to me, it's like the athletes invested 100% of every ounce of substance and belief that they had in gaining a berth to the Olympics.
Starting point is 02:21:06 And all I wanted to do was to test the merits of themselves against the best of others. I never once saw an athlete protest anything. It was always the officials. It was always something outside of themselves that brought a sour taste to this immense opportunity. And to me, that's, again, part of the tragedy, as you said, but it's also a silver lining of the potential that athletes have by every word they say and every action they do to call people to a hard game to transcend those things that keep us stuck and prevent us from writing a history of humanity that has value and merit.
Starting point is 02:21:43 a history of humanity that has value and merit. And last, but certainly not least, my friend and founder of Sun Life Organics, Khalil Rafati. You know, the reason that I was late coming here is because I was doing an intervention. Right. I wanted to, yeah. So, so we were, we were going to try to hook up today to do this and you texted me and said, you know, I think I can make it, but I got to go down and do an intervention first. And it's like, wow. Yeah. Like, in recovery, they always say, you know, sobriety comes first. Sobriety comes first.
Starting point is 02:22:14 And what happens, and I've experienced this, is, you know, you come in and you're suffering and your life is broken. Yeah. And you'll do anything to get it back. And you work hard and you do make sobriety first. And if you do, you get sober and you start to get those things back into your life. You're really, you repair your relationships. You're able to become a responsible member of society. You're able to look people in the eye and tell the truth and show up when you say you're going to show up. And then you start to forget. Yeah. You start to forget what it was that you
Starting point is 02:22:44 did that got you to that place. And you start to take sobriety for granted or you just take your foot off the gas pedal a little bit. And you're like, yeah, I know sobriety is supposed to be first, but you know, like I got to call this guy and I got to go to this meeting. And you're a guy, when I look at you, you're a guy who lives it every day. You understand and get that sobriety always comes first. I appreciate you saying that. And again, I have to point out for my own self-preservation,
Starting point is 02:23:12 it ain't because I'm a good guy. It's because I want to live. When Bob called me up and said, hey man, I got this 19 year old kid who's pacing around his house who thinks his parents are trying to kill him because he's in a psychotic state. I don't want to go deal with that. I want to go to the beach. I want to feel good. I want to get on a podcast and talk about myself because I'm my favorite topic. But- If you want to keep what you have, you've got to give it back. Yes. If I want to stay alive and if i want to keep the little ounce of humility that i managed to to collect over the last 10 years in sobriety i gotta go help that kid
Starting point is 02:23:51 and guess what we got there and he was like fuck you i'm like all right well so you know i'm just here to help you and he's like i don't give a fuck get Get out of my yard. I'm like, all right. And I walked away. And then I turned around and I said, hey, I'm not being paid to be here. And he looked at me and he's like, did my dad send you? And I said, no, your dad sent him. And he dragged me into this. So he might be employed by your father, but I'm not employed by your father. I'm here for fun and for free.
Starting point is 02:24:24 And I'm here to help you out if you want some help. And I wish in that moment it went really, really well. He ended up running away and then we had to leave and then we got called back. But let me tell you something. The third time we came back and he had disappeared and it's two hours in now and I'm just like, this sucks. I got businesses to run. I'm sitting there and the mom is almost in tears and the'm just like this sucks I got I got businesses to run I'm sitting there and the mom's almost in tears and the dad's almost in tears and all of a sudden the kid walks in and
Starting point is 02:24:50 he comes over and he sits on the arm of the sofa and he like eyeballs me like he's like sizing me up you know and he looks at Bob who's quite obviously there he recognized him from TV to do this intervention he's looking at and he's looking at me. And I said, hey. And he goes, what's up? And I'm like, nothing. I'm still here to help you if you want help. And he goes, well, I don't want to make any decisions right now.
Starting point is 02:25:15 And I said, and nor do I. I do not want you to make a decision right now. But what I do want you to know is that if you want help, I can help you. I'll help you for fun and for free. And he was like, I appreciate that. And I said, I you want help, I can help you. I'll help you for fun and for free. And he was like, I appreciate that. And I said, I appreciate you listening. And I looked at the dad and I looked at the mom. I said, I think our time here is up. And they're like, well, what do you mean?
Starting point is 02:25:34 I said, just let it be. You got my number. You got his number. And we got up and we all hugged. Even the kid hugged me. Wow. Yeah. And this is a kid, you know know two hours earlier saying fuck you get out
Starting point is 02:25:45 of my yard right and he knew because the truth is the truth is the truth he knew i was being honest i'm not getting paid for that shit i got dragged into it bob forrest who saved my life calls me and says hey i got a kid you know blah blah blah that's how this thing works it's not about being a great guy it's not about being a virtuous guy it's not about being a great guy. It's not about being a virtuous guy. It's not about being a humble guy. It's about being a sensible guy. I know that I have to give back because so much was given to me freely. Now in the juice bar, it's a different story. I give a lot in the juice bar. If you come in, I don't know you and you're my customer and you got to run and your dog's there and whatever. I'll walk your dog. I'll follow you to the car dealership and drive your car. I'm, I'm all about that. And I'll tell you why, because it makes me
Starting point is 02:26:31 feel high. I get up in the morning and I'm so excited to go be near my coworkers and to be near my customers. And yes, I would be an idiot and a liar to not mention. Of course, it's exciting when it's guys like Gerard Butler walking in the door and high fiving you. Of course, it's exciting to get sweet, you know, Instagram messages from Pamela Anderson. I'm from Ohio. I grew up in Ohio. That's a big deal to me. I'm not going to lie.
Starting point is 02:27:02 I love it. I'm short of breath every time I have one of those interactions with those people. But those people want to get loved up too. Those people want to feel like they're a part of something too. And so whether it is an A-list actor or a rock star, you know, texting from the Thousand Oaks like, hey, I'm at your other store now. This is really cool. I'm dying on the inside. I'm like –
Starting point is 02:27:27 This is pretty cool. This is pretty cool. But what's just as cool is when the day laborer comes in or the housekeeper comes in. They can't speak English. And we get to work it out between the two of us speaking Spanglish as to what smoothie or what juice that they should get. you know as to what smoothie or what juice that they should get or when i when a little six-year-old kid comes running in yelling my name and runs up to me and gives me a hug and says i want i want to get my juice you know or when when parents are holding their kid that can't even talk can't even formulate sentences yet says you know when we drive by here my kid points and says, juice. I'm like, are you kidding me? This is the greatest
Starting point is 02:28:07 thing. This is the greatest high. This is the greatest experience I've ever had. And I want to bring this to everybody's neighborhood if I can. I mean, I know a lot of neighborhoods can't afford it yet, but I want to bring this to as many neighborhoods as I can. That's a beautiful thing. You know, you were talking, we were talking earlier about change and, you know, most people don't want to change and, and, you know, how do you change? And certainly every day I get emails from people like, I want to change, but I'm just stuck and I can't. And, and it's very easy to like tweet a platitude, like, Hey, you can change at any given moment. And it's like, that doesn't mean anything. Like, it sounds good. You'll get a lot of like clicks on it or something like that. But like, is that really helping anybody? You know, and, and so I'm always thinking about like, what is it that I can do to help
Starting point is 02:28:56 people to change when they're stuck? And, you know, one of the things I always say is, is, you know, just think of one small thing that you could change, that you could repeat on a daily basis that seems doable. It's sort of like that example of if a rocket is taking off from Cape Canaveral to the moon and it's off by one micrometer or something, it's going to miss the moon by a thousand miles. But if you can just make that one little tiny micrometer shift, you'll end up in a completely different place. So if all you did, forget about vegan, paleo, whatever. If all you did is had a green juice for breakfast every morning as opposed to having bacon or something like that or just whatever it is you're used to eating. And then you just repeat that on a daily basis. Like where is that going to take you six weeks from now, six months from now?
Starting point is 02:29:50 Because it will set you on your own journey and you'll start to connect with yourself in a different way. You have to respect people and give them enough credit that they'll be taken care of and on the right journey. Like just give them a little tool and send them on their way and then they'll have their own experience. It's going to take them wherever it's going to take them. Yeah. We have people in, in Thousand Oaks, people in Malibu are pretty forward thinking and very advanced and, you know, obviously have the means to get a lot of what's great that's out there and have access to a lot of what's great.
Starting point is 02:30:22 But, you know, we have people in Thousand Oaks that are landscapers or plumbers or whatever that come in, uh, and they don't even know what it is. You know, they just, they just, they see the sign or they see the Lotus flower, or they see the people walking in and walking out as they're at Umami Burger. They look over and they see this thing and they walk in and there's this kid, Alex, that works there who looks like Tarzan. He's the greatest looking kid you'll ever see. Just gorgeous, tall, fit, beautiful. And he says just that, just get a juice. That's it.
Starting point is 02:30:58 And they're like, what about this and what about paleo and what about vegan? Everyone wants to overcomplicate it. Just make it simple. He says, get a juice. So these dudes, they get a juice there's some guy that goes to disney which we always talk about or works at disney that we always talk about he's an executive he randomly stopped in there for his wife right so alex to get a juice he got a juice came back the next day i felt pretty good man well you know what else can i get alex said i don't want you tried turmeric shot so you do turmeric however you say it you know so he did a turmeric shot
Starting point is 02:31:29 then he comes in you know a few you know a few days later and you know is there anything i could take with me and he says yeah why don't you grab a couple of the pressed juices over there we have pressed juices you can take them we'll give you a little bag of ice or whatever so the dude comes in now five days out of seven every single week. He's lost all of this weight. He looks incredible and he can't stop asking questions. He just comes in and he's just lit up and he's excited and he's telling his neighbors about it. And that I believe is how we're going to change the world.
Starting point is 02:31:59 That's how you change it. Yeah. I agree with you completely. Yeah. Sending me pictures of cows getting their face ripped off on Facebook and telling me that I'm a bad person for eating meat is not going to make me change. But becoming a vegetarian, then becoming a vegan, then going on a little run, then going on a little bike, then getting back into swimming, and then eventually doing an Ultraman a couple
Starting point is 02:32:22 years later and writing a book about it, inspiring me. That's what's going to make me change. That's it. That's our show for today. I hope you enjoyed it. If you want to support the Plant Power Revolution, want to support the podcast, best way to do that is to use the Amazon banner ad at richroll.com right there on the right-hand margin. Everybody's got that holiday shopping coming up. You're going to buy stuff on Amazon so you don't have to go to
Starting point is 02:32:49 the mall. Well, click through the Amazon banner ad, buy whatever you're going to buy and will not cost you a cent extra. But Amazon kicks off some loose change, helps keep the lights on. So we appreciate everybody who's been using it. Thanks so much. We've got products at richroll.com. Check that out as well. My athletic recovery post-workout supplement, Jai Repair, vitamin B12 supplement. We got our e-cookbook, Jai Seed, 77 pages of awesome recipes.
Starting point is 02:33:19 We've got our meditation program, all kinds of good stuff. We're in the process of revamping the website wholesale. We're going to be launching a new cart, a new shopping experience with much cheaper shipping options, and we're going to be rolling out some new products soon. So stay tuned for that, including Plant Power t-shirts. There's been a lot of demand about that. I'm sorry it's taken so long, but we're trying to get everything right. And we're hoping to get it up in time for Christmas, but I'm not sure that's going to happen. It's more
Starting point is 02:33:50 important to me that everything works properly than to rush to get it up. So we're going to do our best, but I'll keep you posted on that. What else? Want to learn more about how to eat plant based, how to do it and make it work Work Within the Context of Your Busy Life. Check out our Ultimate Guide to Plant-Based Nutrition up at MindBodyGreen. Go to mindbodygreen.com and you can find it there. It's essentially three and a half hours of streaming video content broken down into five to ten minute subject matter headings, everything you need to know to get plant-based or to at least get more plants into your diet.
Starting point is 02:34:29 What else can I tell you? I think that's it. Let's just get out of here. Thanks, everybody. Appreciate all the support. Signing off from Casablanca. I'll catch up with you next week. Thanks, you guys.
Starting point is 02:34:40 Peace. Plants.

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