The Rich Roll Podcast - The Mental Aspects of Peak Athletic Performance (Part 1)

Episode Date: June 1, 2014

When I use the word “best” in reference to my guests, I mean it. Today's guest truly earns the adjective. If you follow the sport of competitive swimming, then this woman needs no introduction. Quite simply put, Rebecca Soni is one of the most accomplished athletes in the world, period. Here are just a few of her notables: 2-time Olympian (2008 / 2012) 6-time Olympic medalist Multiple world record holder 1st woman to earn back to back Olympic Gold Medals in the 200-meter breaststroke Broke the World Record in the 200-meter breaststroke in consecutive Olympiads (2008 / 2012) First woman in history to break the 2:20 barrier in the 200-meter breaststroke 6-time NCAA Champion at USC 2x “World Swimmer Of The Year” (2010 & 2011) In other words, don't mess with Reb. But meet her on the street and you'd never know just how badass she is — her sweetNESS and genuine humility simply won't allow it. If you know me, you know swimming is my first love. So anytime I get the chance to talk on the subject, it’s going to be long — sorry just can't help it. This conversation holds true, running at around 2 ½ hours. So I'm breaking the interview up into 2 parts. Part 1 today (Sunday night — 6.1.14); Part 2 will post sometime Thursday — 6.5.14. Good stuff. A compelling journey through the the ups and downs of Rebecca’s unparalleled career, we dig deep into: The mental aspects of peak performance, including Rebecca's personal struggles; Rebecca's early years as a young swimmer in New Jersey raised by Hungarian immigrants; The important role of coaches have played in her career; Social media pressures on the global Olympic stage; Her perspective on being a positive role model for young women; Her evolving perspective on nutrition & new found embrace of the plant-based lifestyle; The performance impacts of different modalities of training (volume vs. intensity); Her transition from celebrity athlete to civilian retirement; and Atlas Ventures- Rebecca's start up with fellow Olympian Ariana Kukors devoted to “brain training” the next generation of champion athletes. “Legend” is a word that gets bandied about all too loosely these days. But Rebecca more than earns the mantle and the respect the term truly deserves. She is a legend in the truest sense and her legacy in sport will more than stand the test of time. Plus, she's super cool. After the show she hung out at our house with my kids and her dog Cody (you can hear him hanging around the pod in the background), let us play around with her gold medals and was basically just a delight. It was an honor to spend a few hours with her and couldn’t be more pleased to bring this conversation to you. I sincerely hope you enjoy it! Peace + Plants, Rich

Welcome to the Rich Roll Podcast, Episode 88, Part 1 of my conversation with Olympic swimmer Rebecca Soni. The Rich Roll Podcast. Hello, audience. How's it going? Thanks for tuning in. Welcome to my show. I am your host, Rich Roll, and I'm so glad you dropped by today. Last week, I made a deal with you. And because I'm such a good, open-hearted soul, I'm going to extend that deal. And the deal, in case you missed it last week, goes like this. like this on a weekly basis. And for free, I might add, I will bring you the best, most forward thinking paradigm, busting minds and wellness, fitness, athleticism, creativity, diet, nutrition, art, entrepreneurship, personal growth, and spirituality, the tools, the knowledge, the inspiration you need to take your life to the next level. In exchange, you are going to do the

following. You are going to take all of it in. You're going to synthesize it, ruminate on it, ponder it, write about it, dream about it, share it with others. Then you're going to put it to work. You're going to use it to uncover, discover, unlock, and unleash your best, most authentic self. That's the deal. I think it's a pretty good deal. I think you should take the deal. So when I use phrases like the best and the brightest in reference to my guests, I damn well mean it. And a case in point is today's guest, Rebecca Soni. If you follow swimming, the world of competitive swimming, this woman needs absolutely no introduction as she is one of the most accomplished athletes in the world

in her chosen discipline. She's a two-time Olympian, 2008 and 2012. She's a six-time Olympic medalist. She's a multiple world record holder. She is the first woman to earn back-to-back Olympic gold medals in the 200 breast, breaking the world record both times, I might add. gold medals in the 200 breast, breaking the world record both times, I might add. She's a six-time NZ2A champion from USC, and she was voted World Swimmer of the Year in 2010 and 2011. In other words, she's an absolute dominant force to be reckoned with. And if you know me, you also know that swimming is my first love. This sport holds a special place in my heart. So anytime I get the chance to sit down and talk with somebody about the sport or just talk about the subject in general, it's going to be long because I'm passionate about it. And this conversation holds true to that. It runs at about

two and a half hours. So I'm going to do what I did with the Christian Isaacson episode and break it up into two parts. Part one today, this will post Sunday night by the time you're hearing it, if you're an early adopter. Part two will post sometime Thursday. So later within the same week, two episodes within the same week, two parts of the whole. And you're going to like it. It's a compelling discourse on the ups and downs of Rebecca's unparalleled career. We get into her upbringing, her thoughts on what constitutes the difference between good and great, you know, at this very high level. Everybody is such a incredibly talented athlete. Everybody

has devoted their life to the sport. Everybody trains incredibly hard. So what makes the difference between the person who is getting the gold medal and the person who doesn't medal at all? We also get into the important role of coaches in her career and coaching in general, her perspective on being a positive role model for young women, which is of interest to me as a father of two young girls. We talk about nutrition and in particular, her newfound embrace of the plant-based lifestyle. That's right. You heard me right. She's plant-based these days, which is really cool.

Training, of course, and particularly philosophies of high volume versus intensity training in the sport of swimming and the impact of this evolution in her own career and on her own progression from somebody who had been very, very good to going from that to being absolutely the best. It's pretty interesting. And also what it's like to make the transition into retirement, you know, from going from somebody who's living a relatively monastic life, completely devoted to your sport and all the attention that that brings for somebody at her level to entering civilian life. And of particular interest is her perspective on the mental aspects of becoming a champion, relating her own struggles with this, which was really interesting. She was very open about, you know, mistakes that she's made or her kind of own

internal negative dialogue that she has to overcome in order to do what she does and what she's learned and what the takeaways and wisdom is that she now passes on to the younger generation of athletes, what she calls brain training, if you will. Seminars, appearances, and workshops she conducts under her newly formed company, which is called Atlas Ventures, with her partner, fellow Olympian and world record holder, Ariana Cucors. It's essentially a lifestyle endeavor oriented around giving back to sport and inspiring healthy attitudes and encouraging exploration. It's pretty cool. So the word legend gets thrown around pretty fast and loose these days, but Rebecca

more than earns this mantle and the respect that that word deserves. She is an absolute legend in the truest sense, and her legacy in sport will definitely stand the test of time. Plus, she's just super cool. After the show, she hung out at our house with my kids and her dog, Cody, and you can hear him hanging around the podcast in the background, he's in the garage. And she let my kids play around with her gold medals and was basically just a delight. So it was an honor to spend a few hours with her and I couldn't be more pleased

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Life in recovery is wonderful, and recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. So when you were training, were you making that commute to USC all the way from Manhattan Beach? You know, what's funny is that when I moved to Manhattan Beach, I was after my first Olympics and kind of went through the training phase where it's kind of weird and don't really want to. I dropped down to singles and I said, OK, I'm going to move to Manhattan Beach so that I don't ever go back to doubles because I don't want to do it again. Well, the lifestyle of Manhattan Beach combined with the drive. Yeah. I mean that I, for me, that would make it hard pressed for me to do singles. Yeah. I mean, it was, it was interesting. I ended up cutting down definitely on singles. I brought it back a little bit before, before London, but it was a good reason. I was

like, you know what? The beach is right here. I was like, coach, I'm just going to go jump in the ocean for afternoon practice and call it a day. So when you were training for like, you know what? The beach is right here. I was like, coach, I'm just going to go jump in the ocean for afternoon practice and call it a day. So when you were training for London, you were living down there? Yeah. You were? And you were only doing single workouts? Yeah. I mean, single workouts in the pool.

Right. But I would spend still about six hours a day working out. I did a lot more yoga. I did a lot more not quite weight room stuff, but body weight stuff. Core and Pilates andates. Yeah. And also I really, um, just walking around, I started to, obviously I got my dog and, um, he made me go walk. And so I'd come back from practice, totally exhausted and go walk for an hour. And honestly, I think that that really just helped recovery because it keeps your blood flowing instead of

just like popping down on the couch. You just keep moving. And I think I, I definitely credit a lot of my training account that hour of walking as part of my training. Yeah. That's pretty interesting. I mean, I want to get into your sort of the evolution of your career and kind of your training approaches. I want to do that in a little bit of more of a linear approach. So I don't want to get too much into it right now because it's pretty because it's pretty interesting and it's so different from what it was when I was swimming because basically I was swimming when you were just born,

like old enough to be your parent. But you've been traveling a lot lately, right? So this is like you're retired, officially retired from swimming. And I want to hear about Atlas Ventures and kind of what the post-swimming career life looks like for you. Yeah, it's really exciting. So I retired after London and it's been around two years now. And, you know, it's been an interesting journey. And the journey is more,

the biggest piece that I've learned from it is walking away from something that you love, making a really conscious decision to walk away, and then figuring out what's next, that whole phase in there. It wasn't immediate, right? It wasn't like, oh, when London's over, you hung the suit up immediately. There was a period of time where it seems like you weren't sure, you kind of had one toe in and one toe out. I didn't want to commit, but I was sure.

I was sure for myself, but I wasn't ready to announce it just in case. I didn't know what to do next, and I didn't want to cut out that opportunity by saying that I was going to retire. So I just kept in it. I kept working out, not swimming necessarily, but soon enough it became really clear that I'm really happy with my swimming career and ready to move on and and um I was ready to announce it and that was actually pretty recent I think it was around the beginning of this year right so um it took you a while it did why were

you sitting on that for so long I mean people were all like well obviously she's not I mean you weren't you know like anybody who knows anything knew you weren't showing up at these meets and stuff. So yeah, honestly, I think, um, I was scared. I definitely was scared to announce it. I was scared to let go. Um, I'd watched a couple of friends who went through the retirement announcement and not that it's a big deal, but it's really emotional. And, and at the same time, I wanted to have something to hang my hat on and say, here's what I'm doing now. And I didn't have that necessarily just yet. So I didn't want to just float around and say, I'm just going to figure it out.

Even though that's what I was doing, I wanted to say, here's this amazing thing that I'm starting. So I wanted to have that connection to move. Right, to be able to tie the retirement announcement to the new thing. Right, exactly. To raise awareness for that. Well, I think that, you know, in my experience, I've seen a lot of high-profile athletes, you know, retire and then really struggle, you know, because they're so used to their whole life revolving around one thing and in order to compete at the level at which you were competing or anybody who's, you know, at the top of their, you know, game and whatever sport they're doing, that's your, that's it. That's all you're doing. Right. And in that subculture, in that world, you're very well known. You get a lot of, you know, you get a lot of attention and it's very

exciting and it's, you know, and, and then all of a sudden you flick a switch and it's, and it's just over like instantaneously. And it's almost, I was talking to a friend about this the other day in reference to another athlete. And it's sort of similar to, it doesn't get talked about, but it really is kind of like a post-traumatic stress. It's like somebody who comes back from Afghanistan and then is expected to go to Rouse and go supermarket shopping. And they're just like, what is, you know, like they don't know how to like, I don't understand my life, you know? And, and it can be really intense and difficult. Like I'm sympathetic to that. Like, how do you,

unless you've spent years kind of creating the foundation for what you're going to do next, which I think some people do, but that's the exception rather than the norm. Like how do you embark into the, into the world in a new and different way? Yeah. It's, it's one of the most challenging things that I've been through in my life, if not the most challenging and the hard pieces that people think, Hey, you're an Olympian, you're a multiple medalist, you have gold medals, world records, like what could be so bad about that yeah yeah pity yeah pity woe me it's life's so hard but in reality it's not about the accomplishments or you know what

you come home with and and you know of course my medals are the most prized possession that i own the most physical please tell me you brought one oh yeah they're in the car oh good all right cool we're definitely gonna get an Instagram out of this. Yeah, but it's interesting. So you have that one side of people telling you that, you know, you're, first of all, they're telling you you've achieved the highest thing that you're ever going to do in your life, which that's hard. You know, like this is the peak.

It's all done now. You know, do I just ride on that forever? And for a while I was doing the talks. I was going around to the swim clinics and talking to swim kids and telling that story over and over again. Of course, I enjoy sharing it with the kids, but it's all about your past. And I was having a hard time with that, a really hard time because I wanted to have a future as well. And so I definitely went through a little bit of the post-Olympic funk after Beijing, but luckily I still was in school. So I had to come back to the swim team and finish college and graduate at USC. So there was some structure. There was some structure. And,

but at the same time, I knew it was going to come after London. And on top of that, I knew I was done. Personally, I didn't announce it yet. And so I was prepared. I was like, all right, I know it's coming. I know I'm going to handle it good. And regardless, you still go through it. And there were days, you know, I told my mom beforehand, before it really hit, I was like, Mom, there's days when I'm going to call you crying and say, like, I have no idea what's the point of all this and just deal with it and tell me it's okay. And I know I'll get through it. And sure enough, that's what happened. And I remember thinking I would wake up in the morning. And of course, I live in a beautiful place. I love what I do. But still, it's not the same. There's some piece of you that's missing.

Your purpose is gone. And you can't necessarily snap your fingers and say, oh, well, now I'm going to do this and commit your whole life to it. How are you going to possibly find something else that you're going to care about as much as you cared about swimming? And it takes time to develop. And so, uh, you know, luckily I, because I knew it was going to happen, I gave myself the time and space. And I think a lot of athletes don't, they say, I need to get a job. I need to figure it out immediately. And they jump into something that they don't necessarily like. And so I went the opposite direction. I said,

I'm going to give myself time. I don't know how much time that doesn't matter. Um, I'm just going to give myself the time to explore because, you know, the more I think about it, when, uh, high school or college kids are going through that part of their life, they're exploring, they're exploring the world, they're figuring out what they want, they're trying different things, they're, you know, just exploring. And you don't have that opportunity. I was 100% in the pool. And that was an amazing experience. I learned, you know, things that I'll never forget and skills that I'll never, you know, lose. But I did not have that experience of searching for what I wanted to do. And so I had no idea. So I just said, you know, I'm just going to let life take me where it takes me. And, um, it started out,

I said, Oh, I love this Pilates class. Let me train to be an instructor. So I trained to be an instructor. I taught for a little bit and said, okay, that's not for me. So I moved on. And, um, you know, I just started taking all these courses online from positive psychology to a nutrition courses and, and just try to learn and travel and still kept doing appearances to pay the rent, but I knew it wasn't necessarily what, what I wanted to do. And I just gave myself the time. And every time that I figured out, you know, I'm not really enjoying this instead of getting down about it, I said, okay, cross it off the list. That's one more thing, one more step in the right direction.

And I kind of just let it happen. And I gave it, you know, a year and a half, now almost two years. And I'm still exploring. I still, you know, it's not that I know for sure. The only thing I know for sure is I'm kind of doing my own thing and figuring it out on my own. I don't necessarily want to jump into a job. I'm just kind of doing, making up a job, you know, making up a company with a friend and we're

going to run with it and see what happens. I think it's cool. I mean, I think that for you to give yourself that permission to breathe and to try new things without putting the pressure on yourself, like this has to be the absolute next thing that I'm investing all of myself in is takes the pressure off, you know, if you can do that. And it's really fun. I remember, you know, of course I spend a lot of time just searching the internet and learning new things and just taking the time to talk to people and something interesting that they brought up. Well, I'll go try a class in that and see what happens. And, uh, you know, this random trip comes up, just take it, just jump on it. And you never know where you're going to end up. And, um, I can't even remember the progression of ideas that I had

that, Oh, maybe I'm going to do this. And I'm not really, and then move on to the next, to the next, to the next until something really felt right. And it took a long time. I mean, it always takes a long time. I feel like, uh, you know how some of the professional sports leagues like the NFL, maybe the NBA, too. But I think the NFL, they have these programs now where they help the players learn how to, like, manage their money and try to prepare for, you know, a life after football. And, you know, it's almost like continuing education for the professional athlete. like continuing education for the professional athlete. I feel like the Olympic Committee or the respective governing bodies of the various sports should have something similar like that for the athletes

because for every Michael Phelps who can sail off into the sunset with all these endorsement deals, 99% of even these super elite Olympic athletes, they have to kind of reenter the world. That sort of reality doesn't exist for most of the greatest athletes that are walking around the planet. Definitely. I remember coming out and thinking, I know nothing about how the world works. And I definitely had my tunnel vision on. I did what I wanted to do in swimming. I put my whole everything into it. And I

was, you know, good about my money. I saved up money because I didn't know, you know, how am I going to make money? Is it possible for me to make money after swimming? And of course, you know, you get, uh, people telling you whether it's to your face or on social media, you know, like, why would you retire? What else are you good for? Basically it was the message that I kept hearing. And of course you, even though you should tune that out, it kind of was a reflection of what I was thinking. And so that, that was always hard is, is it possible? Am I, am I just destined to keep telling my story? And that's the only way that I can, you know, make money. But I said, no, there's something bigger and better. And I,

I don't mind waiting for it. And so, uh, but it is, I think, you know, there's a lot of skills that we do miss out on as professional athletes and we do get to experience an amazing lifestyle and, and, you know, learn and travel and, and these relationships with our teammates that are going to, you know, last us the rest of our lives. But once you hit the real world, it's kind of a big smack in the face. And not only that, but you were on top of the world and all of a sudden you're, you have to ask what I'm not going to be on the cover of a magazine this month. It's like, it's like I would walk into, you know, I was talking to who knows who, you know, at a relatively businesslike meeting. And I'm just like, I have no idea what they're talking about. Like these words've heard on TV or something, with movies,

but I have no idea what that actually means. And it's scary because all of a sudden, despite being an Olympian, a gold medalist, something that everyone seems to look up to, when I walked into the room, I felt small. I felt insignificant. I felt completely see-through. And that's really just in your mind. Because everybody in that room is looking, you know, like see-through. And that's really just in your mind.

Because everybody in that room is looking at you going, oh, my God, look, it's an Olympic gold medalist. Oh, it's totally in your mind. But at the same time, you have to get used to starting from the bottom again. Because you get used to being on top and that just feeling of being confident. You know, I can still walk into a pool deck and I know it's like this is home for me. You know, I feel like I own this place. This is awesome. You know, and then you can walk outside and someone starts talking about something and all of a sudden you're like, I'm, I'm nobody all of a sudden again. And it's good. It's a humbling feeling and you, it's okay. You just have to kind of roll with it and learn and take the time. And that's

the best thing that I found with, you know, starting this company has been, I don't know how to create a website, so I'm going to figure it out. And I took a long time and probably could have used a little help, but. But you have, you know, swimming lends itself to a certain very specific skill set, which is the ability to focus and devote yourself, you know, very completely to a singular task and follow through on it. Like, you know, hard work equals success. Like you're, you live that relationship every day in a very tangible and real way that, that a lot of people in the sort of traditional, you know, workforce or whatever don't know. So it's a question of really just finding the thing that you can get passionate about and then applying those skills that you learned through swimming to that. And

it's, it's game over. It is, but it's, it's interesting because a lot of people of course, tell you exactly that. And you say, well, sure. I know how to work hard in the pool, but I don't know how to work hard. Like, I don't even know what that means outside. How can I work hard at something when I don't even know how to do something? And, you know, it's almost like detrimental because I'm thinking here, I can't just jump into a whatever job that I don't know much about and be at the bottom because people are looking at you. They're going to hold you at a higher, you know, higher level than others. They say, you're, you're an Olympian. Of course you should figure that you should know how to do that. You're, you know how to work hard, you know, this, this, this, and this.

And I'm like, well, yeah, in the pool, but it's not the same. And so, you know, it takes a long time to figure out how to transfer those skills. And I think that's the biggest thing that I've learned is, is it is in there. It's just the, how that's the hard part. How do you transfer that over to, you know, the new thing that you want to do? How do you, how do you even see those things inside of yourself? Because I don't see them. You know, I do see them if I look really, really hard, but to me, I'm just being me. That's just who I am. And I don't see it that way. I don't think when I'm doing a hard practice, Oh, I'm being really resilient right now. You know, you don't notice those things. It's just

part of your personality. And, and while that is, it is a great thing, it's just take some time for you to figure it out. And I think the biggest thing for athletes, for anybody that's, you know, going through a big change is give yourself time because time is, you know, beautiful thing. It's, it gives you perspective. It gives you a chance to explore and, and you don't have to jump in. You don't have to, you know, that, that time in between can be some of the most fun, rewarding times. Cool. Well, you have taken your time and now you're doing something pretty cool. So tell me what Atlas Ventures is all about. So Atlas Ventures, it's, we're figuring out what it is all about, but it's all about the mental side of sports. So we talk so much about the physical training. You go

through your practice, you show up every day, you get into your, into your training, whether it's in the pool or any other sport, we're all kind of the same. Uh, you do your training and you get up on the blocks and all of a sudden you have this, Oh shit moment when you're up on the blocks and, and it's like, Oh, you know, the, the thoughts that go through your head and, you know, you psych yourself out, you can psych yourself out so quickly. And, um, and I just kind of got more and more fascinated with that side of sports. Um, interestingly enough, when I left sports, uh, because I was doing the same exact thing in the real world, in the business world, I was talking myself out of, you know, meetings. As soon as I got in, I said, I don't deserve to be here. And I heard that voice.

I was like, what am I telling myself? And so I started to, uh, get really fascinated with, with that side, um, both in sports and out. And so we, uh, we being my best friend, Ariana Cukers and I, she's a fellow Olympian. And we decided to join forces because we've done swim clinics before, but, and we love working with the kids, but I was not a very technical swimmer. I don't know much about technique. I just know what works for me. I beg to differ on that.

We're going to talk about that in a little bit. But I know what works for me. I beg to differ on that. We're going to talk about that in a little bit, but I know what works for me and I can't, you know, I can't, I can teach someone to swim freestyle, but if it's a good swimmer and they're like, can you look at my stroke and tell me what's going on? I have no idea. I just don't know. I, I didn't focus on that when I was swimming. I was very, you know, internal, um, as an athlete. And so teaching those things and swim clinics didn't do it for me. I can do it. The kid will learn something, but I leave feeling kind of empty. And so there's plenty of people that can do that. There are, and they can do it way better than me because I just kind

of make stuff up and I'm like, I don't know, you know, like granted when you're, when you're young, I can definitely, you know, show things. But, um, but at the same time, I think swimming is such an individual thing and it's so based on your body that I can teach you exactly how to swim like me, but it might not work for you. It probably won't because you don't have the same body as me. And so personally, I think it's kind of silly that we do, you know, the clinics are great. They give a chance to meet Olympians and get inspired. Um, but when it comes down to the technique work, it's like, you need to be working with your coach every single day. How much can I really teach you about whether you like move your hand one inch to the right or to the left? You're there for an hour and then you

leave and then you don't see that person. I don't even know if it'll work for you. And at the same time, you know, I'm learning more and more about this, this mental side of sports that, you know, of course it's growing a little bit with all the sports psychology, but people usually wait until there's a problem to go fix it. And, um, so, uh, with Ari and I, we just decided to kind of go a swim clinic ish, but only talk only talk about the mental side. So, you know, we do exercise with the kids. We do a lot of writing. We do a lot of explaining of, you know, how and why this works. And it turns out to be a really fun and rewarding way to do it. So that's how we started. That's what Atlas Ventures was based on.

really fun and rewarding way to do it. So that's how we started. That's what Atlas Ventures was based on. It's a lot of traveling and exploration and, you know, it's just, it's just our way of kind of going up against the system, doing things a little bit differently. And, you know, we're really excited about it. We're growing to, to all sports. It's definitely not just swimming related anymore. And just trying to really tackle that side. And the most fun thing about it is it gives me a reason to keep on learning about this stuff. And, you know, I'm able to teach it because, you know, when people watch my stroke and they say, oh, well, you're just so talented, like you have the natural talent. I'm thinking, no, I don't. I worked my butt off for that. You know, I worked harder than

anybody, but the ability to work hard, that's what I was talented in. The skill, that's what I was talented in. The mental skills, um, hard work and, you know, focusing and keeping positive when it was really hard to, and all these things, um, you know, that's what I was skilled at. So I was lucky there, but take me out of the pool and I have to relearn all of those things over again. Interesting. Cause you would just assume that it, that it spills over into every part of your life. And so I had to relearn and then the process of relearning, I learned how to teach it. And so now I can teach it to other people, just like I'm teaching it to myself. So, uh, that's been the really fun part is everything that I'm teaching to kids, whether they're, you know, 10 years old and hearing about this for the first time, I don't expect them to immediately pick up on it and do

everything I'm asking them to do and the exercises and this and that. But, um, even if they just hear it and start to think about it, you know, even if it's a year later or who knows, you're planting a seed. Exactly. And that's the fun thing because as I went through and as I keep on learning, I keep thinking, and this all came about, you know, with Ari and I sitting down talking to each other. She lives in Seattle. I live in L.A., obviously. And just getting on the phone, we would talk once a week or so and be like, just talking about what we learned this week and so excited. And I kept saying, I wish I'd known this when I was swimming.

Gosh, I wish I'd known this. You know, I would have been so much better. I would have been so much better. And that's me saying that, you know, coming out of that with six Olympic medals, I mean, how much better could I really have been? But it just was so exciting to think I can teach this to somebody, you know, 15 years earlier than I learned it. And what, what are the exercises? Like what are the core principles of what you're teaching? Right now we've really delved really deeply into goal setting

dealing with nerves and focus to me focus is the absolute biggest one you know you hear people say sports are whatever percent mental and the other percent physical whether it's 50 50 or whatever to me it's 99 mental one percent physical because and you know, the hard work matters. But how hard you can work, that's all in your mind. It's what are you telling yourself at those moments of hard work? What are you focusing on? What are you thinking about? What habits do you have? So we go through and teach you how to break your habits, how to build good habits, how to notice your bad habits and break them. And it's really powerful stuff because you don't realize what you're telling yourself on an everyday basis. And, and in our workshops, we really go through

and give them, you know, we only do it for two hours. We could talk to those kids for like 10 hours if we, if they had the patience or interest, but, um, it's more just a, just an introduction. And then, um, you know, we'll, we keep checking in on them, giving them more exercises later to build and grow it. But are they like, uh, like visualization or like journaling or writing exercises or it's a lot of journaling. It's, it's a lot of up to you because, you know, someone like me, I've recently started journaling, but I never did until I started to learn these things and I'm not a

writer so I have no idea why but journaling is really helpful so a lot some of it is written, some of it is visualizing, it depends on what fits for you, what works for you and it's been really fun because when being able to

work with somebody like Ariana she was huge on goal setting. We had a very different approach to it. She was the one with the vision board up and taught me a lot about that, which I use that now. But I never did when I was young. And I had a really strong goal. But the way that I dealt with it is by not telling anyone, never writing down what I thought about it all the time. And so those are two really different approaches to it. Um, and, um, it's actually,

it's just so interesting to think that the power that it has, and I didn't realize that until later and, and, you know, looking through my story and, and my story of reaching my goal. And my goal was to break 220, to be the first woman to break 220 in the tuna brush hook, which, um, you know, my coach, when I was in high school, so about 10 years before I did it, you know, I was nowhere near to 220. And all of a sudden out of nowhere, I just like pulled me aside and said, you're going to be the first woman to break 220. And I said, you're totally crazy. Like, I have no idea what you're talking about, but that's powerful for him. There's another seed that gets planted, whether you believe it or not, you're telling yourself a certain story, but like you, you know, that was that, you know, that now you can implant that into your story, whether you believe it or

not, you can kind of fertilize it. Yeah. And just thinking back with now what I know, if he hadn't taken that two seconds to tell me that I wouldn't be here. I definitely, without a doubt in my mind, I would not be here. I would have, maybe I would have made it to Beijing, but I wouldn't have kept going. That's what kept me going. And, uh, you know, in the four years from Beijing to London, I thought about that every single day. If I said, I don't want to get in the water, I said 220. And if I thought, you know, this set is hard to 20, it doesn't matter what it was to 20. I don't want to go to bed early. All my friends are going out. I just want to, you know, go hang with them, but I'm morning practice 220. And I just kept saying it every time. And with the amount of, um, hard work that went into that. And, um, the funny story that

I've realized later, you know, kind of dissecting this idea was, uh, of course I wanted to break 220. I wanted to honor 220. And so, uh, I came into London with that goal in mind. I hadn't gotten a best time in four years, which is kind of scary, especially as you, you know, get a little bit older. Not that I was older or anything, but I was 25, 26 and London and hadn't gotten a best time in four years. And I was like, I don't know, you know, college is kind of a prime time for swimmers. And, um, I didn't know if it was possible. I didn't know if it was possible for a woman to break two 20 that, you know, that was the barrier at the time. And, um, I just had to go in and say, you're going to do it. Doesn't matter how. And so, um, my whole big plan was

to break two 20 in semifinals. So, you know, prelims went well, but semis, it's like a trial run for finals. Everything's the same, but you get another try. So it's like less pressure. You're not as nervous. And I always swim faster in semis. And so everything was going great. You know, I never felt better in warmup. I was like on fire. My coach could see it. I could see it get up to race. The race goes great. I'm like blowing the field away and I touched the wall and I hear the crowd go wild. And I was like, oh my gosh, I did it. And I looked up at the clock and I got 220.00. Oh, you did? I didn't know that.

220.00 in semifinals. And, of course, you know, I went back and it was a hard 24 hours to refocus. Because I was like, I missed it. That's it. That's it. I can't go any faster. And there's a lot that went into going. And that's a story.

It's just a story that you're telling yourself. Right. That you're giving power to. Yeah. And I was able to come back. And the story of finals is another story. But I ended up breaking it with 219.5. But looking back at it, it's like I told myself for 10 years, break 220, break 220, break 220.

But your mind doesn't hear the break part. It only hears 220. It's like when you tell yourself, don't eat sweets, don't eat sweets. All you can think about is sweets. You weren't walking around going 219, 219. You were going 220 and you got exactly. Exactly what I asked for.

Isn't that insane? It's just when I think about that, it's like, wow. Like I just totally set myself up for that. And that's the power of your mind is that I have no idea how that happened. And, you know, looking at my finals race, every lap was slower.. And, you know, looking at my finals race, every lap was

slower. I was, you know, maybe half a second slower on my last turn than I was the day before. But somehow that last lap, it's not that I was, I actually felt terrible going into finals. I felt horrible. I thought this is over. You know, I knew I could win. I knew I could get the gold medal, but my dream was over. And I don't know how. I don't know why. But for some reason, that last lap, I just pulled it together and was able to do what I wanted to do. And thank goodness, because then I could walk away and, you know,

say I did what I wanted to do. You did. Yeah, I mean, when you talk about, and I want to get into that a little bit more, but when you talk about the mental side of things and the stories we tell, I mean, when you start to journal and you start to write down things that your brain is telling you, it's kind of insane. I'm like, what I tell myself about who I am is pretty, you know, like I wouldn't treat a friend that way. I mean, so why am I so hard on myself? Why am I so, why, why am I so negative? Why do I reinforce these negative stories about myself? And I think, you know, some people come out of the womb and

they just like, I'm going to be a star. And they walk around believing that. And, and a lot of times that's what happens, you know, because they have this very strong core belief. Most people aren't like that. And I think to be able to get in touch with, you know, what those stories are and to implement tools, to change that, to get you on a better trajectory is powerful. And in swimming, like, you know, I mean, I don't know what swimming is like now compared to what it was like when I was swimming, but it was just you go to work out and you do your workout, you know. And yeah, you want to have a positive attitude and you want to set goals and work towards them. But there really wasn't a lot of focus on how are you going to get an edge mentally vis-a-vis your competitors or with yourself.

And if you did go seek out the advice of a third party on your mental game, then there's something wrong with you. You know, I've talked about this before where, oh, like if you're a pitcher and suddenly, you know, you go from, you know, your stats start to plummet. Oh, you go see the sports doc and you know, you're stigmatized, something's wrong. You know, we have to fix this as opposed to that should just be another coach in your rotation of advisors who are helping you maximize your game. Yeah. And I think everybody in every walk of life needs that person, whether it's in sports or, you know, a business counselor or just somebody to unleash that stuff on. And that's one of the reasons that I love journaling too, is that it just gets, it clears your mind. And, you know, I was holding onto these thoughts for so long,

whether they were, you know, negative thoughts that were keeping me down or, or just, just some thought that I had about myself. And the second that you write it down, it's like, it's like letting it out. And now your brain can, you know, fill up that space with whatever you want. You can choose what to fill it up with. And, and the effects of that are powerful. I mean, I, I was a really, really shy kid. Like I wanted, I remember when I started to get good at swimming at my first nationals, I was standing behind the blocks at finals telling myself, you better not win because

I don't want that camera in my face. I do not want to get like, I remember thinking you're going to race all out. And then as soon as you get under the flags, if you're ahead, just slow down a little bit and let this person win. So you don't have to be on camera. Like I'll know that I was good. I'll know that I did well, but I just, I was so scared of it. And it's, yeah, it's a lot of, you know, just growing up, but it was my natural tendency to, to shy away from those things. And, and, um, you know, it came, it kind of came back at me when I stopped swimming and I was in this whole new realm again with things I wasn't necessarily confident with. And my,

you know, I just wanted to hide in the corner a lot. And I kind of saw that as not necessarily, you know, people think it's just who you are, um, whether it's, um, not necessarily, you know, people think it's just who you are, whether it's everything from, you know, when I wake up, I'm not a morning person to I am a morning person or I'm shy or I'm outgoing or whatever it may be. I mean, everything except for how tall you are and, you know, you can change the color of your hair, but, you know, your physical traits, you can't change, but anything other than that is changeable. And that's the biggest thing that I've noticed is I've trained myself and I'm in the process of training myself to get over the things that I, you know, don't necessarily like about myself. And it's not that they're bad or good.

It's just that they're not helping me. And I see ways that I can grow from that. And it takes stepping out of your comfort zone and it takes a lot of work. And that's the biggest thing too, about, about mental side of sports and of everything really. And this is all for, you know, every aspect of life. I just, you know, speak the athlete language and they, they speak mine. So that's why we really love working with, with athletes, but you know, everything is just so, it takes a lot of work. It's not an instant fix. And so, yes, when you have a problem, you go to a sports psychologist. They're amazing. They're

great. You know, I didn't go on to one until a year before London. So the last year of my swimming career is when I finally went and it was cause I couldn't handle the pressures of, um, you know, you think that second time going to the Olympics is easier. Uh, it's way, way, way, way, way harder. You're going in as the, you know, as the reigning, you know, gold medalist in your event and everyone's looking to you to see whether you're going to be able to duplicate that. Yeah. And I love, you know, doing the media and they always ask you, do you want to go for a second, you know, to win that medal again?

It's like, you think I'm going to say no. Like, why would you even ask that question? But just, you know, having that discussion with people, it gets in your head. And so, um, I had to go talk to somebody and it helped so much. And I was like, I don't know why I waited so long for this, but, and you know, so those, those sports psychologist situations are, you know, they're so necessary when you do have a problem, but my approach is more, you know, preventative. It's more, um, building, building good habits from the get go, like learning that all these things are changeable. You know, you can figure it out. You can grow into the person that you want to be. You're not, you know, people are so set on, Oh, it's just who I am. It's in my

genetics. It's in my DNA. It's how I am. It's how my parents are. And, you know, it's just learn like getting rid of that thought that that you are who you are and you can't change. That's the biggest thing for me is is create the life that you want, figure it out, make yourself the person that you want to be. And that's that's the main message. It's not about getting your cut in the meat and getting this time. And, you know, of course that will get you to where you want to go, but, um, it's more just learning that, you know, you can be who you want to be. That's the, you just articulated the theme of this podcast. So what is the answer, Rebecca? Journaling, getting out of your comfort zone. Like what are the practices? Like if somebody is listening who is struggling with this idea, like there's, I want to change or I have this goal, but I don't think that I can do it. Or they're stuck in their rut or they're, you know, looping their negative

thought patterns. Like what are some of the things that, that, that somebody could take away that they could implement and maybe start to move that in a different direction? Um, so, I mean, we have, we're going to have a bunch of stuff up on the website for exactly that, but, so, I mean, we have, we're going to have a bunch of stuff up on the website for exactly that, but, um, I mean, it's all starts with noticing what you're telling yourself. I think that is the biggest thing and you really don't know what you're telling yourself. And I'll, I'll go back to the, uh, to the Olympics example. So after I'd gone that to 20.00 and semifinals, I, you know, went home and the theme in my head was, that's it. You can't do it.

You can't do it. I did my best. I had the race of my life. I felt better than I've ever felt and I couldn't do it. It was your best time. It was faster than you'd ever gone. That's true. And it was a world record and that was all amazing.

But it was really, it was really, it turned very quickly from confidence to hope I can do it. I don't know, you know, and it, and it went on for, for 24 hours and I didn't notice it until I was standing behind the blocks to race one more time. And, you know, over those 24 hours, everything had changed. I came back to the pool that night and I felt terrible. I felt beyond terrible. And, you know, the one place that you don't want to feel like that is at the biggest moment of your whole career. And there's nothing I could do because even if I tried to focus on the positives, I still felt terrible. And I worked with my coach and I still felt terrible. And I got into the warmup pool before the biggest race of your life, before a global audience at the Olympics where the gold medal is on the line in the world and to not feel good. Like I can't imagine the level of panic

that would set in. And I remember thinking, you know, there's my legacy right there, 220.00. At least I, you know, kind of got close to what I wanted to do. But, and, uh, so anyway, the day went by and I got up behind the blocks and I was, to race. And I have my routine and I do talk a lot about your routine. I think it's very grounding to have those kind of cues that make you feel certain things. And so, you know, my routine after I went through it is the last thing I do is I kind of wait for the whistle to blow and goggles on everything and one foot up on the blocks and hands on the hips and just like looking out over the pool. And when you're at a, you know, big competition like that, it's a totally silent pool that, you know, there's that little like ripple in the water as it's like hitting the gutter and, and it's so calm and you never see a pool like that, or we never do, you know, when you're practicing and everything, it's, you never see an empty, calm pool. And,

and that was always my moment to kind of tune into myself because I never raced my competitors. I only raced myself and, um, that's, that's how I succeeded. And so to have that moment to tune in and in that quietness, I just heard this voice that said, I don't think you can do this. And right then and there, that was the first time I ever heard it in my head. And I kind of said, F that. I don't care how. It doesn't matter how. It doesn't matter how I'm going to make it happen, but I'm just going to do it anyway because I've trained 15 years for this. And I've said in my head over and over again as I was looking out in the pool, I don't care how I'm doing it anyway. I don't care how I'm doing it

anyway. I don't care if it's possible. I'm doing it anyway. And I just said it over and over again until I believed that. And letting go of how is a huge thing. And you can't just like snap your fingers and let it go. It takes a lot of mental work. And that's where the work comes back into it, you know. So with our training, with our exercises that we do, is we teach you little by little how to tune in, how to focus, how to figure out what you are

focusing on, because whether it's, uh, walking into a crowded room and saying, oh, you know, people don't really think I'm valuable in this realm. And all they think is I'm the Olympian and I swim and that's it. You know, what are you really telling yourself in that moment? And noticing it is the first step. So, you know, whether there's something that you want to change, uh, you know, I walk around sometimes with a notebook and I write down my thoughts and some of them that come to light are the silliest things. And like you said, I wouldn't treat my friends like that. Why would you treat yourself like that? But you know, with, with all the thoughts that are running through your head, you're telling yourself this detrimental thing

all day, every day. And, uh, you believe it. And so, uh, you know, the biggest thing is noticing that you're saying it and then replacing it with something else. And, and, uh, I'll steal, um, Ari, my business partners, uh, example, uh, she swam the 400 IM and 200 IM and 400 M is one of the hardest events in the book. You have to swim every single stroke, and you have to swim it for 400. That's a long, long time. And transitioning strokes, and by the time you get to freestyle, it's just you're dead. And when she was swimming her 400m, she'd always get to that point and turn into freestyle and start swimming freestyle and say, I'm so dead.

This is terrible. This is terrible. I hate this part. I hate this part. And she was really smart when she was swimming and she was doing a lot of this at the time. Uh, whereas I just kind of accidentally fell into it, but, uh, she actually, you know, saw that and said, every time I feel that way, I'm going to say, I feel great. And so of course you don't feel great, but just telling yourself that you do

takes the focus off of the bad, onto the good. And, you know, she said it took a lot of time and a lot of practice, and you practice in practice, you practice in competition, you practice, you know, just sitting in your bed at night and say, I love the last lap of the 400, but it feels phony, it feels bogus, and it will feel that way, it will feel that way for 400, but it's, it feels phony. It feels bogus. And, um, it will feel that way.

It will feel that way for months, if not years. And then one day it doesn't one day you feel amazing and that's the moment of success, but it takes years, months, weeks. It's a practice just like any other. So you have to act as if, and, and change that story and start telling yourself a different story. Even if you don't believe it, it doesn't matter. Just act as if. And some things that I've done, like I've put a rubber band around my wrist. And like every time I'm like repeating some negative thing, I snap it. And I'm like, snap out of it.

I mean, I think the first thing you have to do is to develop an awareness that, you know, who you are is not defined by these messages that your brain is looping, like that you have a consciousness that is outside of that and that you can control that, that that doesn't have to control you. So I think that's the first thing. Once you realize like, Oh, like those thoughts that are looping that that's not really me. That's, that's my mind trying to tell me I'm something, but I actually don't have to believe that. And then also you were talking about something really interesting, which is when you got in for finals of the 200 breast and not feeling good and like, you know, how devastating emotionally that could be to like, Oh my God, I don't feel good. And something that I've learned over the years, it's been very helpful to me is

to understand that feelings are just feelings. Like that's it. They're not going to kill you. And they don't have to dictate outcomes. You know, like you can't, well, Oh, I don't feel good. So, you know, ergo, this is going to happen. Like that equation is not reality. It's only reality if you believe it and act and act accordingly. But, but you can, you know, sort of dictate a different outcome, uh, that can transcend however you feel because your feelings are just your emotion. I mean, physically, if you're in the pool and you don't feel good, like, yeah, there's something to that. But like emotionally is probably the more devastating aspect of it and to understand that you can walk through that fear and that that doesn't have to

determine your behavior. And I, you know, you brought up a lot of things that we do talk about. Um, so you know, those, those negative thoughts that are going through your head and, and separating that from who you actually are, that's a big theme that we talk about. Um, so we actually decided to call those thoughts, BBMs, bad brain messages. Um, but if, if I know BBMs aren't really a thing anymore, but it really contextualizes the thought as a text message, like back when you were BBMing with your friends. It's just a text message. It's not who you are. It's a BBM.

And so, and the other thing is. You can block that. You can block it and just realizing that it's not who you are. And, you know, so we kind of teach them a bunch of little tricks and we show them, you know, this is what happens in your brain. Like say you're having a bad mood or it's just something happens. And, and the reason that you get stuck in that rut of not breaking it is because your brain keeps sending you those BBMs and you believe it. And so, uh, it's, it's a lot of figuring out what your messages are, what are you telling

yourself? And then we show you how, how you break it, how you get over that, how you train yourself to be the opposite or to be what you want to be in that department. It's so great to be able to deliver that message to kids. I mean, you're saving, you're, you're potentially saving them, you know, 20 years of reinforcing a negative, you know, self image or something like that and giving them tools at a very early age to even, even if all they do is start to think about it a little bit, cause you know, what kid is going to go home and start, you know, jumping on the plan a hundred percent, you know, like some of them do really, Oh yeah. Some of them do. And they love it. And

they, you know, their parents write to us and, and, uh, you know, those are parents that I usually end up staying in touch with because it's just such a rewarding feeling to hear about, you know, the changes that they've made and, and I'm not pushing them. Their parents aren't pushing them. And, you know, the parents are inspired by the kids and by what they're doing. And, you know, that's the ultimate reward right there. It's nothing else really matters, but when they see the value in it, when they actually commit to it, because it's not going to work for you unless you at least put a little bit of effort into it. And so to see that people actually love it as much as I do is, is so fun and so rewarding. Yeah.

And we'll serve them in every aspect of their life, mostly outside of the pool. Right. You know? Yeah. I love the fact that you guys, uh, show up at these swim practices at these clubs, like unannounced. Yeah. So we, uh, we started practice crashing, you know, it's funny. We, uh, we were kind of just brainstorming ideas of just what to do. I mean, we had no idea. Cause probably cause you're so tired of the same old swim clinic. Yeah. The swim clinics and, and,

um, you know, the meet and greet where they just want a picture and they're out and I'm like, I have more to give you. Like, let's at least sit down and talk or something, you know, that I just felt like it was so empty. But, uh, so we were talking ideas and, um, the idea of like photo bombing came into my head and we're like, yeah, let's practice bomb. And I'm like, Oh, that doesn't sound very good. You know? came into my head and we're like, yeah, let's practice bomb. And I'm like, Oh, that doesn't sound very good. Cause we're like, yeah, we want to go like, um, eventually into like schools and classrooms. I was like, yeah, we can't use that word. So, um, so we were like practice crashing. Perfect. And, uh, so we went on a practice crash road trip. Uh, we started, it was a six week road

trip. We started in LA and,., and we just contacted the coaches, so the kids were totally surprised. They never knew we were coming, and we would come into practice either before practice, after, or sometimes right in the middle and just surprise them. It was a lot of fun. It was really rewarding. We got to stay with host families, so we stayed with some of the families.

We stayed with the kids and the swim moms we got to stay with host families. So we stayed with some of the families. We stayed with, uh, the kids and the swim moms and got to know them. And honestly, that was probably my favorite part was just getting to know people everywhere. But, uh, so we went from LA to Vegas, Tahoe, Reno, Carson city up to Salt Lake, uh, park city. We got stuck there for a couple of days, uh, skiing and stuff. And then upward to Boise, Seattle, Vancouver, Whistler, back down. Spent some time in Seattle before we went to Portland, Bend, San Francisco, and Santa Barbara, and then back to LA. So we were gone for six weeks. We saw about 25 to 30 teams all up and down there. And each, you know, every time we stopped into a pool deck, we just kind of told a couple of stories and, uh, all definitely very mental focused,

but we didn't really talk about what we're doing. We just said, you know, if this, if this interests you at all, like check out our website or we, we were doing a lot of social media. So we'd always, uh, you made some YouTube videos too. We made some, we kind of fell off of it. I was like, we needed a little photographer following us around, but we literally had, uh, we took my car, my poor car, uh, got like 6,000 miles on it. But, uh, we have, you know, the GoPro set up in there and, and, uh, all these weird holders. Cause I had no idea what we were doing. We just like kind of put some stuff up in there and recorded stuff, but I haven't even looked at it we've been you know go go go since we got back but uh we got a lot of footage and we'll eventually get that up into a video or pictures

and I mean it was just so many memories and and the whole purpose of the trip was uh you know for her and I to spend time together because we you, decided to go in on these workshops and this business and, and yeah, and, uh, she's up in Seattle. I'm down in LA. We're like, we can talk on the phone, but it's not quite the same. Like we really wanted to create a vision for our company and, um, you know, and our workshops and, and, uh, do some workshops. And we did some along the way as well. And those were amazing. And, um, it was just so much fun but the other purpose was that uh you know we're at a point in our lives where we have freedom and you know i plan to have this kind of freedom for a long time because i'm kind of hooked on on you know being the boss of my own universe but um

but the the other you know the purpose of it was just to go have fun and so unfortunately we did have a time limit where she had to be back in Seattle. Um, otherwise we would have been out there like a year or something, but, um, just been just driving around and I mean like crashing in on people's houses and like, Hey, can we stay here? And I'm saying like five, six days, but, um, but it was, it was just so much fun. Cause we took the time to have fun and we really balanced each other out and that, you know, she was very schedule oriented and I'm very like, Oh, there's this, it's a good snow day. Let's go ski.

You know, so we took, we did a good balance. That goes back to the vision boarding, you know, personality versus you. Who's just, who seems, you know, you're a little bit more in the moment. Yeah. And, and we, you know, we kind of, it was awesome to have that push and to be able to actually have to hold her down and say, listen, like, this is too awesome to not go do it, you know. The one day that we were in Seattle, we were like, we're bored, let's go to Whistler.

You know, and just kind of having that kind of trip where you don't really know what's happening next. Uh-oh, Cody, should we let him out? He'll be all right. Um, so we got to do a lot of fun stuff as well. So it wasn't all work by any means, but, um, she's just a really valuable friend. She's one of my best friends. I know her better than she knows me better than I know myself at this point, probably after six weeks in a car together. But, um, it's just so amazing to, you know, whether we were talking to kids or families at nights, you know, before going to bed, we were staying with, um, amazing families and just talking with them about everything from

swimming to whatever it was going on. And, um, or, or whether it was, you know, hitting up happy hours all over the place and her and I just getting into these crazy discussions about, uh, you know, about our thoughts and feelings and, you know, just taking it to a level that I've never really had the, the chance to before to, to verbalize those things or to even just think them. Um, like I said, when you get it out, it makes room for more things to come. And so, uh, it was just, it was just so much fun. I mean, we learned so much about life, about each other, about how we want this company to go. And, uh, and you know, I, I've really got a chance to, to think about what I want to take this to like, what's the next steps and, uh, the big picture. And, and it's pretty fun to kind of think in that

way of, of life is unlimited. You can do whatever you want. You just have to figure out what you want. And, um, going back to the vision boards that you brought it up. Um, so she taught me how to do that. And I decided to make one, even though I never had in sports, uh, in swimming, I decided to make one now because it's never too late. And so I was like, awesome, what a great idea. So I went and bought a cork board. I put up on my wall and I was like, okay, ready? Go.. So I went and bought a cork board I put up on my wall. And I was like, okay, ready, go. And I couldn't think of anything. And that board sat up there for like two months.

And it was the saddest thing because there's not one thing on my board. And, you know, I kind of realized that I'd not. You're like the detective in the detective show who's staring at the whiteboard trying to solve a crime. Yeah. And doesn't have any clues to tack up onto the wall. It was kind of sad, but, uh, I, and I realized that maybe you don't have goals right now and that maybe you should probably pick something and put it up there and, and just see what happens. And eventually I did, I put one or two things up and, and then before I knew it, I,

I was on a roll and now it's full, full of stuff that I never really thought about before. But it's actually super fun. And people think, oh, a vision board, like how corny is that? And it's so girly or whatever it is. It's such a teenage girl thing. Yeah, like you picture like Justin Bieber up there or something, you know, like that's what you picture. But it's such a powerful tool. And I cannot tell you, like I schedule time to work on my dream board um

hey he's okay let him go uh I I like schedule time to do it and those are some of the most fun times uh of my day or my week uh because you just you just you're picking your future you really are because I totally believe that what you plan to do if you work hard enough you can get whatever you want you just have to want it you just have to know what you want. And so, I mean, I spend like hours just dreaming of ideas and researching on the internet and then printing out pictures. And it's just so fun because it's like, here's what my life's going to look like. And you put energy behind it, you know? I mean, speaking of Justin Bieber, I mean, that brings to mind, of course, we can't have a podcast without talking about the Biebs, right? Actually, the Biebs has been to our house.

Oh, yeah? He did a commercial here. Nice. For like his fragrance or something. That's hilarious. You know, when you look, when you kind of turn on the television or you go to the newsstand, you're just inundated with images of females that aren't exactly the ideal role models. Like as a, as a father of two young girls who you've met, you know, I'm always, I'm very conscious of, you know, what are they watching?

What are they seeing and what is influencing them? And, you know, I don't want my daughters to be influenced by the Kardashians, you know, like I want positive, strong female role models for them. And, and we're in a TMZ kind of era where that doesn't really get a lot of airplay. And you're a strong voice. You're an extremely accomplished young woman who has a point of view and has the capacity and the interest and the wherewithal to inspire young women, right? Girls. And so do you think about that? I mean, does that enter your brain? I mean, how do you kind of carry that mantle or do you like, is that like, does that

make you uncomfortable? Or, I mean, because I just think we need more strong, accomplished women to set examples for our girls and the more opportunities that there are for young girls to be able to access or, you know, tap into kind of that message. It's, we all benefit from that. It's really exciting for me to think about that because I never saw my life ending up this way. You know, when I was a kid, I never even thought about the Olympics. It was just so far out of my realm that it wasn't an option for somebody like me. You know, it was for those people that are selected by whatever it may be, whether it's a person or divine intervention, you know, it's those people, it's not people like me. And so I never thought I would be an Olympian. I never thought I'd be put on this pedestal, if you will. And so I remember, you know, towards maybe before

London. So getting into the point where the more media is focusing on all the Olympic athletes. And now that I was a second time, you know, going into my second Olympics, I got a lot of media, which was amazing. The sponsors and all that kind of got to live the dream for a little bit. And but I remember thinking, you know, they want me to go and tell my story, but my story is, Hey, I trained really hard. Like I stared at a black line back and forth and back and forth and back and forth. Like, is that really interesting? And, and just kind of, you can't create a soundbite out of it. I'm going to make it interesting because we're going to go into it in a minute, but go ahead. I'm going to make it interesting because we're going to go into it in a minute, but go ahead.

I mean, it's just interesting when you finally figure out that you do have a story and that your story can help other people. And once I realized that, it was, I mean, it's amazing. It's an amazing tool. And we all have the opportunity to do that, whether it's on a big scale or a small scale with your friends and community. We all have the opportunity to do that and to do what you want with it. And so I don't go out and, you know, purposefully try to get people to listen to me because that's not me, you know. But do you feel like a responsibility to that? Not really. Yes and no. I mean, of course, yes, but I don't think

about it, you know, actively. I just go about and do what I do and what I do, I think is a good thing. And so it's not like I'm going out to do it just for a purpose. I'm just, my purpose is because it fulfills me and it helps other people as well. That's kind of, um, the way I think about it is I just, I just do me. And if people are inspired, that's amazing. And that's more than I can ever ask for. But if I start focusing on that and on them, you know, I'll lose me. And I think I'm much more powerful if I am who I am.

And that took a long time to realize, too, because, you know, here's this social media world, And that took a long time to realize, too, because here's this social media world, which kind of snuck up on us and definitely snuck up on me, especially in London. I mean, I'd never been in such a huge social media time. And I mean, no one could have thought. And it was interesting being at the meet because not only, you know, a lot of people were just coming onto Twitter, for example. Um, but like a hundred thousand new Twitter followers in like 24 hours, how you do. Right. And so literally the, the, you're comparing, you know, we're in our dorms. And of course, uh, my next door neighbor was Missy Franklin. And, you know, then there was back to Justin Bieber the day that he tweeted at Missy Franklin and she immediately gained 300,000 followers.

And, you know, the little competition within within your within your dorm room. And it's not like, hey, how many did you get? But it's like, oh, my gosh, like 80,000 people just followed me. Are you serious? And it depends on how you do. Right. And then all of a sudden, you know, you have to realize that Twitter, it's not just a place for you to complain. It's a place for you to make yourself. It is who you are. Suddenly, you better start thinking pretty clearly about what you're going to be putting out there. And it takes a while to get used to.

I remember there'd be days, because you feel this pressure to tweet then, right? Or to put stuff on social media, and that I didn't like. Because I felt like I had to, and then I was searching for things to put stuff on social media and that, that I didn't like, cause I felt like I had to, and then I was searching for things to put and I'm a kind of private person. So I don't really like to, to post things. And there were times when I'd write it out and say like, do I really want that many people to see this? And no, I, I really don't, you know, so, and I just delete it and not, you know, not post anything. And, um, did USA swimming or the USOC, like, did they give you, and um did usa swimming or the usoc like did they give like sit you down and say here here are some guidelines about how to handle yourself online or do they really try to get you to share more or

share less or be careful or you they do say you know you can't post any results you can't say what happened because there's the time time difference even though everyone else is doing that that was pretty much it. And the rest was kind of use your common sense. I mean, don't say something stupid, you know, and many people did. And it's just like... What was the stupidest thing?

Oh gosh, I don't know. I don't know. I'm going to make you do it. I don't know. I mean, just people don't think about, they get emotional about something. And of course, yeah, it would be something you would text to a friend, but you don't want to put that out on the Internet. And so, I don't know, I went through this back and forth with social media.

I don't like it. I hate it. I like it. I don't like it. And for a long time, especially when I was going through the decision to retire and actually announcing it, I just, I couldn't even look at social media. Um, not because of the support or lack of support or what people are saying, but I just said, you know, people don't care about this side of me. They only care about the swimming side of me. And, uh, it was a really hard transition to make because here I am saying

I have a, I have a purpose other than swimming and everyone's telling you we'll get back in the pool. And, and, you know, I know that that's not everyone. That's the few that really, what you're saying is you're having this internal battle where you're, you have this perception that the only reason that you have a presence on social media is because people care about your swimming. They don't really care about you. They're not interested in who you are or anything beyond like, Oh, you went to 19 and the 200 breast row. And it takes time too. I mean, it takes time. And I feel like now all of a sudden, not all of a sudden, but, but through the work that we're doing with the Atlas ventures and, and with all this mental training of athletes and, and that for me, it's now something more

powerful. And now I feel like I finally got into that place where I don't really care what people think and I will post whatever, whatever feels good. And it just, it feels amazing to just not care. And it's not, you know, people are going to follow. They're not going to follow. Yeah. It's just, there's, it just feels so much better to just put my voice out there and make it my voice.

And it took a long time to find my voice, whether on social media or not. But it was really definitely an interesting time to deal with all of that because you have so many personalities now. There's the person that you are, you know, with your friends and family. Then there's the person you are standing up on stage. And then, you know, of course your online presence.

And it just has so much power. But it also, I mean, it's a great thing. It helps us connect. It helps us learn. And, you know, I's a great thing. It helps us connect. It helps us learn. And, you know, I spend a lot of time on, on YouTube and Facebook now, and it's not, you know, it's not, you know, people can say what they want about Facebook being a terrible spy. Everyone complains. And of course, of course they do. But, um, you just kind of avoid that part and look at the part that's connecting you to all these amazing people all around the world. I mean,

I'm on Facebook groups with amazing people that inspire me every single day and that's our way to connect. And it's such a powerful tool. Everyone just posts, you know, research and thoughts and whatever that just lift you up. And it's all about putting yourself in the right position, just like surrounding yourself with the right people. It's, it's such a powerful, amazing tool for us to use it. It's your relationship with it. That's important. And I think making that transition from that fear of like, you know, what am I going to say? Or who am I online to just being sure of who you are and not caring and then leveraging Facebook for what it can, how it can like raise

your vibration is a great relationship to have with it. As long as it's not like this compulsive, like, uh, you know, you're just obsessively looking at cats or babies. And it's cool. I get to be able to stay, you know, see what's going on with my relatives and friends that are on the other side of the country and all of that. As long as I don't use it as a tool to isolate, you know, which I can do, you know, like I, I do that if I'm not careful. So I have to be careful with that.

But listen, we got to geek out on the swimming part. All right. Come on. So, I mean, there's swimmers that listen to this. And there's a lot of people that don't know anything about swimming. Like they may be, this might be the first time they've ever heard of you because they're coming from a different walk of life. And, you know, you mentioned, oh, well, what's so interesting about my story? I worked really hard. I started a black line and I worked harder than everybody, you know, and I, this, I got these results, but

kind of in looking at your, the arc of your story, I think there's a lot of really interesting things in there. And one of the interesting things starts with the fact that you, your parents are Hungarian, right? So you have this sort of Eastern European descent. And there's a very interesting relationship between Hungary and breaststroke, you know, breaststroke specialties, because I grew up, uh, I swam with Mike Barrowman and I come from that era. And, and he really was a pivotal, uh, athlete in the evolution of breaststroke because he was the first person when he started working with this Hungarian coach, Yosef Nagy. Nagy, do you know him? No, like I said, I don't know anything. Yeah, see, so this is like old generation, right? This is how I'm dating myself terribly.

But so Mike Barrowman, who Olympic gold medalist, world record holder in both 100 and 200 breaststroke was the first person to kind of take breaststroke, which is an extremely technical stroke, and everybody has their own very specific kind of version of it. And it gets really interesting when we talk about your stroke versus all the other incredible breaststrokers that were training at USC under Dave Salo, who all were very great, but all had very different styles. You don't see that in other strokes, right? So breaststroke is very unique in that regard. And it used to be, you know, back in the 80s,

it was a very herky-jerky kind of flat stroke. And Mike was the first one, when he worked with this Hungarian coach, to understand that it would be much more efficient and powerful to adopt this kind of wave-like, you know, almost a dolphin-ing approach to the stroke. And it was, it was at the time it was like revolutionary. And then he broke the glass ceiling and broke all these world records. And it was, it was insane. And, and then, you know, a whole generation of swimmers kind of came up adopting that discipline. And so there's this weird Hungarian connection with you. And I think Hungarians like know how

to work hard too. Like they have a very, so my question really is, did you, I mean, is that, is part of your work ethic or your ability to kind of focus? Do you think that that is in some respects can be tracked back kind of culturally to the household that you grew up with your parents? I mean, when you put it that way, that's the first time I've really heard a lot of this.

And like I said, I was kind of in my own little world in the pool and I don't know a lot of the history of swimming. So it's interesting to hear, but, but, uh, yeah, I mean, I'm sure, I'm sure it goes back to it. I mean, it's the way that it's so fascinating the way that we're all built and what actually goes into that. And I don't think it's necessarily just the fact that I'm from a Hungarian descent. Um, but I'm sure that, you know, I don't mean to be making too much of that, but I thought it was interesting that there is this little kind of thread. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it definitely is. I, my parents came to the U S right before my sister and I were born. So it's not, you know, we grew up Hungarian. We grew up

in a very European, Eastern European household. Um, and yeah, I'm sure that that had a lot to do with my work ethic. You know, it was a lot of, um, it's just, you know, I think the biggest difference that I can remember is it, it doesn't matter, you know, not that it doesn't matter how you feel or how, what you're thinking. Like we didn't sit down and just have family conversations. No, but it was sort of a reality that permeated your daily existence. You didn't know differently from that. Yeah, and I definitely think I was raised differently than my friends in school, and I saw a little bit of a difference, but in the best way possible.

I'm sure I learned a lot and took a lot, but how can you really tell what part of you is because of that or not? But that is really interesting. And you talked a little bit about, you know, the different types of breaststroke and the fact that it is different across the board of everybody who swims it. And, uh, that's what makes it unique in the swimming world. And, and that's the, one of the things that I love the most about it was that, you know, and it's hard when you're a kid too, because they just teach you the fastest person's stroke. And so, you know, one person does really well with this stroke. All of a sudden, all the kids are swimming it that way. And, um, when I was a kid, I was

really lucky. I had an amazing, I had a lot of amazing coaches, but at the time, um, when I was swimming in New Jersey on Scarlet aquatic and my coach, Tom, the one that said, you're going to be the first woman to break 220. I owe him a lot. Um, he, he really, he really, uh, he got a shout out right after the race in, in London. I was like, the first thing I said, I was like, Tom, that was for you. I was like, that's all I could think about. Cause I was like, it was all him. Like that was all him. But, um, just thinking about it, I was like, it was all him. Like, that was all him. But just thinking about it. Dave Salo's like, what? No, I love Salo.

Salo, you're the best. I mean, he and I have been through a lot, and he has some great stories. But no, I forgot what I was going to say. You were talking about growing up in New Jersey and being like you. My understanding is that you. I was disqualified all the time. Yeah, because you had a very unique stroke from the get-go. Right.

And I think, correct me if I'm wrong, but the foresight of Tom, your coach in New Jersey, was that he didn't try to change it to make it look like somebody else's breaststroke. He saw that you were doing something unique that was working for you. And he built on it. And rather than try to make it look like somebody else's or what everybody else was doing, he was able to say, no, let her keep doing that. Let's try to build on this. Yeah. He really, I mean, he built that stroke. Uh, he saw the different parts of whatever I was doing in this stroke that worked and, you know, swimming, you think it's so much of your arms and legs and pulling and kicking and how big your arm stroke can be, how wide your breaststroke can be.

But he just kind of saw through that and, and helped me find this totally different stroke that, you know, you mentioned it earlier. It was all about flowing. And the more, the more I grew up and went through different coaches and moved out here to California and swam for Schubert and then, then ended up with Dave Salo. You know, when, when he came in, he, he, we sat down and talked and he's like, you know, I, I was there before him. I came, um, Schubert, the coach before left after my freshman year and transferring coaches

is always hard. And let alone here comes the sprint coach, uh, you know, totally different philosophy from everything that I've ever known in my whole life. I was always like yardage and, and endurance and all that. And, uh, and we sat down and he said, you know, if, if you had come to me, I would have changed your stroke, but because, you know, you're in college and we kind of fell into each other's paths and, um, you didn't come here for me. He, he had the, the great, you know, foresight to say, I'm not going to change your stroke. I'm going to try to, you know, add my little tips to you. I'm going to give you whatever I can, but I'm not going to change it. And I'm just going to kind of try to better it the best that I can, even though I don't understand it. And, and, and through that time,

I mean, we've worked so much and he has been a totally amazing coach, but, but one of the biggest things he's taught me was to trust myself. You know, he was one of the coaches where I, you know, I knew how to work hard. I knew how to work so hard, harder than anybody. And I would do anything, whether it was the hardest set you've ever heard of, I would do it and say like, But it's a one way conversation. It was you what to do. And then you execute that. And I was the best at executing it. And you're not really encouraged to think independently about anything. You really give it all the way over to your coach. And what Dave did was step back and say, no, this is going to be a two way conversation. Well, he didn't say it. That was the hard part at first was that I came or he came in and we started to get, you know, going on practices and the months went by and I was just like, this guy, like, he just doesn't care. You know, I, sorry, Dave, I remember sitting in his office and we had this conversation and I was thinking about transferring. I had had enough. I was like, I don't understand. He's, he doesn't notice me. He doesn't care. Not that I need, you know, special attention. I just need some attention. And and I remember sitting down in his office and my mom was actually out visiting. So she came and she, of course, had heard all my complaining about Dave. And and so we had this little conversation. My mom's like, you need to believe in my daughter and blah, blah, blah. And my mom, little like European woman coming in and telling him what's up. And he's like, yeah, like, I totally believe, you know, it's all about how hard she's going to work. And you know, she's doing great. And that was kind of the first time I'd heard that stuff. And so

I was like, oh, okay. You know, maybe he cares. He's just not showing me as much. He's not taking me by the hand. And you know, as the time went by, as you have to take more responsibility for what you're doing. Yeah. And I started to take more responsibility until, um, it all finally made sense when, you know, we were going into Beijing and he, he was not on the coaching staff. And, you know, when you go to the Olympics with the swim team, you are about a month, uh, in a training camp and you have new coaches all of a sudden, that's not necessarily the time you want to be without your coach. And so all of a sudden I realized, you know, I'm just fine without him and not in a bad way, but in a way that he taught me everything I needed to know to trust myself. And he did it without telling me he was going to do

it. And that takes a lot of skill and foresight. And I really respect the heck out of him. I think he's an absolutely fantastic coach and he taught me so much about life and I had no idea, you know, he taught me how to take care of myself in, in and out of the pool. And, uh, you know, he's really just a fabulous coach and a wonderful human being. and a wonderful human being. Okay, everybody, that's our show. How'd it go for you? Hope you enjoyed it.

Even if you know nothing about swimming and it's not your thing, it's hard not to just adore her, right? Because she's adorable. Speaking of stepping up your mental game, a big theme of today's show, have you checked out my new course at MindBodyGreen? Well, you should. It's called The Art of Living with Purpose, How to Set and Achieve Goals, Transform Your Life and Become Your Best, Most Authentic Self. So if you're somebody

who tunes into this podcast because you're stuck or frustrated with your life and not sure how to get off the dime and are just looking for some inspiration or a little direction, then this course might be for you. I've got over two hours of streaming video, some downloadable tools and resources, basically everything that addresses all of the essential foundational principles and practices behind every successful sustained life transformation. The things that I use to change my life, the things that I've seen other people use effectively in their own life. And all in all, it's a valuable toolbox that contains the assets required. You need to make the changes in your life necessary to become the person you always

wanted to be and deserve to be, really. So if this feels,, if this feels like something you might benefit from, uh, then have a look. It's at mindbodygreen.com. You can find it on the homepage there. And that's all I'm going to say about that. Uh, thanks for all the support you guys by telling your friends and posting the Instagram pictures. I love it. Absolutely love it. Uh, if you want to continue to find ways to support the show, continue to tell your friends. That's all I ask. And when you go to Amazon to make your Amazon purchase, click through the Amazon banner ad at richroll.com first.

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Lots of new stuff coming too. So that's it. Thanks you guys for listening. I will see you again on Thursday. And until then, here's your homework. Consistent with the theme of today's show, I want you to write down the things you feel are limiting your own personal mental game. What is it that's holding you back from performing at your peak? So put pen to paper. I'm not talking about typing on the computer. I'm talking about old school journal, pen, paper, do it. All right. Until then, I will see you on Thursday. Peace. Thank you.