The Rich Roll Podcast - The Modern Elder: Chip Conley On Reframing Midlife, Cultivating True Wisdom & Finding Purpose In Life's Second Half

Episode Date: April 24, 2025

Chip Conley is a hospitality maverick, founder of Modern Elder Academy, and the entrepreneurial sage who helped transform Airbnb from a startup to a global phenomenon. This conversation explores midlife as a chrysalis rather than a crisis—a transformative journey from ego to soul. Chip illuminates the path from horizontal achievement to vertical growth, addressing life's longest yet least understood phase. We discuss his near-death experience, the nature of wisdom, and why friendship becomes essential to wellness as we age. In the process, Chip creates space for me to reflect honestly on my own lifelong pursuit of achievement. Chip is a treasure. This exchange is for anyone seeking to avail themselves of midlife's deeper possibilities. Enjoy! Note: Chip and I invite you to experience these insights in person in Los Angeles on June 5th for a special gathering with the MEA faculty. Register at meawisdom.com/richroll.  Show notes + MORE Watch on YouTube Newsletter Sign-Up

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To explore your own soft winds and check out the new Cloud Surfer 2, head to on.com slash richroll. We're living longer. How do I get older in a way that makes me feel good about myself? What if my best years are ahead of me? In between being young and becoming very old, there's a stage of life that is not well enough understood and gets far less attention than it deserves. That stage is midlife, one we tend to only consider for the kinds of crises it tends to provoke, instead of seeing it for the opportunities it presents and welcoming it for what it actually

is, which when done right, is an aspirational phase of life. Chip Conley is our expert in residence on all things middle-essence, and today the founder of the Modern Elder Academy, which is the world's first midlife wisdom school, is here for his third turn on the podcast to do what middle-agers like myself are uniquely suited to do best, which is to share his wisdom as a modern elder on what matters most when it comes to our middle years. For so many people, they hit midlife and they sort of shut down. At least in adolescence, we're going through it with a peer group. The kinds of things that we go through, the transitions of midlife and middle-essence, we're going through often alone, but they're normal. So many of them are normal. How exactly do we best pursue this multi-decade period of life so that we don't succumb to

crises, regret, and lament, and instead avail ourselves of the beautiful things that it presents so that we can live a deeper, more connected, fulfilling, meaningful, and purpose-driven life? I've got questions, Chip Scott answers, a manifesto for Middle Age in fact, which is the title of his beautiful latest book. So please hit that subscribe button because Wisdom School is now officially in session.

10 years from now, what will you regret if you don't learn it or do it now? There are a lot of people who don't want to try something new after age 50. And then there's a growing number of people who realize that curiosity and openness to new experience are two of the most important variables for living a longer, healthier, happier life. Chip, you're back. Delighted to have you here. So excited to dive deeper. Sorry to interrupt your writing time.

It's fine. You're a welcome distraction to the torture of the page. So it's always a delight to spend time with you. We're gonna dive deeper into middle essence. This is your third time on the podcast, but I do wanna kind of set the stage. And out of pure curiosity earlier today, I just wanted to find out what happens

if you type midlife into Google. And of course the word crisis is the first thing that comes up. For sure. So let's just start with like, why do we see it as a crisis still? And how can we see it differently given the fact that this stage of life,

which you have said goes from somewhere around 35 to 75 is the longest phase of life. And yet, despite all of your incredible activism and advocacy still appears to be less well understood than it should be. Well, let's recognize that there were three life stages that came into existence in the 20th century. Adolescence as a word didn't exist until 1904. Retirement was a thing starting in the 30s.

And then in the 1960s, midlife got a lot of attention, partly because of coining the term midlife crisis. But also midlife, when you have people living until only 47 years old on average in 1900, midlife didn't exist. So we're still making sense of midlife. I'm trying to demystify it and elevate it and give it some operational chops.

But the reality is Hollywood and Madison Avenue have had a huge impact here. There's a sense that midlife, especially for men, was this thing that you hit it, your body was falling apart, you're becoming irrelevant. And so you go out and buy a red sports car like Leonard Burnham or whatever, Lester Burnham on American Beauty, Kevin Spacey, and you have an affair.

And so I think that frame has stuck. And the reality is very few people fit that frame. So that's why I like to say it's not a crisis, it's a chrysalis because it's a transformative time. It is this extended period of transition. And whether you end up kind of reaching out for that red sports car or having the affair, what have you, those are kind of outward manifestations

of this internal struggle, which is this clutch to relevance and significance, like, look at me, I'm important. And as we get older and our forms of intelligence start to shift, it's our resistance to this natural process that causes the suffering and the kind of less advisable behavior. Is that accurate?

Breton Brown calls it the midlife unraveling. And unraveling has two meanings. Number one is when you hear someone's unraveling, you think they're losing their mind. But what she said to me once, she said, Chip, have you ever looked at the word ravel in the dictionary? And I said, no.

And she said, ravel means something so tightly wound, you can't get it undone like a ball of string. And so in many ways, what's happening for people around 45 to 55 is they are unraveling their expectations and they're coming face to face with their disappointments because when you're 35, you still have hopes and dreams that by 45 or 50 may seem like their regrets. And so for a lot of people,

what's happening between 45 and 55 is you're diminishing your expectations from life, such that by the time we get into our 50s, the U curve of happiness research shows that we get happier with each decade. And it's partly because we're expecting less from life and we're getting clearer on what matters most to us. In your experience being somebody who's steeped in this

and has been studying it and practicing it and teaching it as the founder of the world's first midlife wisdom school, what are some of the epiphanies that you've come across or learnings that are kind of most important for people to grasp and understand about this period of life? I think there's a gender component to it. And then past podcast episodes,

we haven't talked about that as much. And I think that's become more and more apparent to me over time. For men, some of the issues that come up are virility, not virality, but virility, not being as virile as they used to be. And that's sometimes the physical body, but sometimes it's the sexual appetite.

It's feeling for the first time, if you're a straight white male, the ism of ageism. So for a lot of women, they've dealt with sexism. And if you're a straight white male, the ism of ageism. So for a lot of women, they've dealt with sexism. And if you're an LGBTQ person, you've dealt with homophobia. And if you're a person of color, you've dealt with some kind of racism. But if you're a straight white male and you're 52 years old, you can start feeling irrelevant and that doesn't feel good. And it's the first time you have not been sort of the prize fighter in terms of sociology

of what we've got in our society. So there's that. For women, perimenopause is a kick-ass. I mean, it kicks your ass and it's hard for women. And on the other side of that, you may have some postmenopausal zest language that came from Margaret Mead. But when you're in the middle of menopause or perimenopause, it's not easy. For women, they're dealing with the odds against them

when it comes to romantic life, the invisibility, romantically, 70% of the people over the age of 50 who are single are women. So there's that, there's financial issues for women, there's caretaking issues for women, of the sandwich generation taking care of older parents and taking care of kids at the same time. There's that, there's financial issues for women, there's caretaking issues for women, the sandwich generation taking care of older parents and taking care of kids at the same time.

So I think one of the biggest things I've learned is you can't apply the midlife pair of glasses you wear to everybody the same way. At the same time, I'll say that across cultures, there's a lot of comparability, more so than 50 years ago. And what does that mean? It means that generally speaking, midlife is the time when you start to realize mortality

is at the finish line. The grim reaper is holding the finish line tape. If you have a perspective that death is a bad thing and you don't wanna get old, then midlife will be a crisis. If instead you have what Becca Levy at Yale talks about, the pro-aging perspective, as opposed to an anti-aging perspective, she says, if you can actually shift your mindset

from a negative to a positive in midlife, you gain seven and a half years of additional life. So in cultures like Latin America, Africa and Asia, you have historically had elders respected, but today in those cultures, Google has replaced grandpa and grandma in terms of where kids go to learn things. And therefore midlife crisis is an issue

in those cultures as well. Yeah, it's interesting from a cross cultural perspective, how people kind of interact with this phase of life, presuming that if you come from a spiritual or religious tradition that frames death, very differently than the kind of Judeo-Christian kind of perspective on it. In other words, one, something know, something that, you know,

isn't something to be feared, but is transitional in and of itself, that that is going to inform your relationship with aging. Oh my God. You know, I, 12 years ago, went to the Maha Kumbh Mela, which just happened again in India. It was a hundred million people 12 years ago. It was like, I've seen videos of it.

It's unbelievable. Hundreds of millions of people this year. What an experience. It's the Hindu rite of passage. People walk hundreds of miles to this confluence of two actual rivers and then a third mystical river. They come together and every 12 years, they have this experience.

Well, in the Hindu tradition, you know, the idea is like, okay, you're coming back. Reincarnation is part of the idea. So I was part of a stampede there. I mean, I wasn't purposely to stampeding. I was under, you know, for caked for people under, you know, I was basically run over by people and people died. And you know, I saw dead people after the stampede,

but in the Hindu culture, there's a sense like, okay, they're coming back. And they were at the auspicious experience of Mahakumala. So they're gonna come back in an even better state. So it's a very different point of view than- That's extremely different. The stampede in Grand Central Station. Almost like it's aspirational to transition

in the midst of that ceremony itself, right? I mean, if you go to Varanasi, you know, in Varanasi, you see the bodies, you know, being laid into the, you know, the Ganges River and being burned and being burned on the river or before being put on the river. And so in many ways, or if you go to Bali, I mean, one of my favorite places on earth,

just the idea of these cremation ceremonies and these celebrations, the idea that a rite of passage at death is just opening a window to the future, which means you'll be coming back. It seems foundational that if you want to have a healthier relationship with, you know, whether it's middle age or, you know, our elder years, that we have to first look at our relationship

with death itself. Oh, sure. And interrogate that, right? Because doesn't everything else is downstream of this tremendous fear that we have. I would recommend to everybody have an NDE. Yeah, we talked about that last time. Although I don't know that I investigated that thoroughly enough.

I mean, you had basically you died like nine times. You collapsed on stage, you had this infection. I had a allergic reaction to an antibiotic. I was at Gavin Newsom's bachelor party. I broke my ankle playing baseball. Your first mentee. My first mentee and long story short is I had this experience of going to the other side.

And then more recently I've had stage three cancer. So, you know, the Stokes talk about memento mori and the idea of having a remembrance of death as an organizing principle for how you live your life. There's a lot of value in it. There's a lot of value in writing your obituary and getting clear on what's important. We spend the first half of our life

really building our resume, and we should be spending the second half of our life creating our eulogy. What do we want said? One of my favorite movies of all time is It's a Wonderful Life. Not because it's schmaltzy, but because actually it's a dark movie.

Watch that movie again. It's a bit of a dark movie, but Clarence the angel comes down to Jimmy Stewart, George Bailey on the bridge before George is gonna throw himself off the bridge and commit suicide. He sees Clarence come down and says, this is what Bedford Falls would look like,

you know, and it would be Potterville based upon old man Potter who ran the town if you hadn't lived. And I wish that we had a technology and maybe we will in the future, a social technology that allows us to see the impact we've had on others and your impact, you know, Rich, I had people telling me way before I ever listened to one of your episodes, maybe six or seven years ago about you.

And so, you know, you're fortunate enough and I'm fortunate enough that we hear from people all the time about what impact we've had, but everybody deserves that. Everybody deserves to have their eulogy before they die. This near death experience also took place kind of at the bottom of your curve of happiness, right? So you were in a bit of a existential crisis

about your life that overlapped with that, that kind of added significance to that. And I'm sure is fundamental to like this whole chapter of life that you're in right now. Do you think that if you hadn't had that experience that you would even be doing what you're doing right now? It's almost like the universe delivered this experience to you so that you could basically have your own chrysalis

kind of rebirth into this new chapter of life with some wisdom to provide and a guiding principle to kind of give your life meaning and purpose. Yeah, who knows? Yeah, it was a bit of a divine intervention on some level. I had five male friends lose, take their lives during this time. One of them whose name was Chip,

Chip Hankins, my insurance broker and one of my best friends. I was having some suicide ideation. I was at one point on my way to the Golden Gate Bridge, ready to jump. I called my best friend, Vanda. And right as I talked with Vanda, as I pulled over to the side of the road,

Aretha Franklin came on with the song, Amazing Grace. And so I deeply believe that my life is meant to have some meaning. My favorite book of all time is Man's Search for Meaning. And it's partly because what Victor Frankl tried to get across in that book was the idea is that meaning is the fuel of life. So sometimes I've come to realize over time that our past life lessons, our painful life

lessons are often the raw material for our future wisdom. And it is that sense that when I, between age 45 and 50, went through my bottom of the U curve of happiness, everything that could go wrong was going wrong. And then I had the NDE. It was a wake-up call for me, which is pretty good because I was a hotelier. So the hotelier wake-up call of saying, I need to have a different life.

And the structures we have, sometimes our identities that define us, and sometimes it's our family and our friends and the infrastructure of our life that says you have to be this person. You know what I'm talking about. I mean, I'm telling your story. There is a sense that you have to sometimes have

something that breaks, that forces you to make the change. One of the things that I've learned over time is that there are three stages to any transition. There's the ending of something, there's the messy middle, the chrysalis, and then there's the beginning of something. And it's that anatomy of a transition of understanding which stage are you in

that's helpful for you to understand how do you cope with it. And so for me, when I had my NDE at 47, I was in the messy middle and I was stuck. And so my midlife crisis was not buying a red Porsche or having an affair. My midlife crisis was being stuck in a chrysalis, feeling like I was gonna be in this gooey, dark,

solitary place for the rest of my life, which is part of the reason that suicide felt like it could be a possibility. So I ended up selling my company at the bottom of the market made, if I'd waited three or four more years, I would have made a lot of money and I made a moderate amount of money,

but I got liberated and it was in that liberation that I had time for my midlife atrium, the space to reflect upon how do I wanna cultivate the second half of my adult life. And that led to me being at Airbnb and being the modern elder there. It isn't a midlife crisis, it's a midlife opportunity.

Like it is a transitionary phase. On some level, you can perceive it as, you know, being lucky if you're given this gift that forces you to look at yourself in the mirror because otherwise we just pursue our lives, you know, kind of you talk about like the horizontal and the vertical, like we're pursuing it on this horizontal line that is really being driven

by the ego and fundamentally is about like, what can we get? Like we're trying to get things in our life. And then at some point we realize that this pursuit at some point we realize that this pursuit of getting isn't actually delivering on the things that we need and want the most, which is meaning, purpose, happiness, satisfaction, all of these things. And we have to reconcile this.

And that process is the crisis, right? Or it is the entering of the crisis. It's the unraveling. Yeah, this is the unraveling. And like, you've got to figure out another way to get these things, meaning purpose, fulfillment, satisfaction into your life. But you're in this moment where you have no idea

how to do that because your whole life has been premised upon this other way that isn't proving to kind of deliver on the promise in the way that you thought it would. Well, the way we show up in society as an adolescent or an early adulthood is loud, unmistakable and full of social rituals that help us to understand who we are, the ego of who we are,

the external identity of who we are, the ego of who we are, the external identity of who we are. And midlife is a much more subtle internal experience. It's not about the external identity, it's about the internal identity. And it is the process of actually shifting out of creating the container, which is the ego and the way we face the world, to actually looking at what's inside the container. And for some people, that's extremely scary because with that will come, skeletons in the closet from childhood,

with that will come, disrobing from identities that aren't serving us anymore. At MEA, which we'll talk about, I'm sure, Modern Elder Academy, we call it the great midlife edit because the first half of our life we're accumulating and the second half of our life we're editing. And the primary operating system for the first half of our life is our ego,

but it's around midlife that Richard Rohr, one of our MEA faculty members, says that we move from the primary operating system being the ego to the soul, but nobody gave us operating instructions. And it's a very subtle process. And sometimes it is external circumstances that force us on our knees to say, okay, I'm ready.

Arthur Brooks, who's, you know, on our faculty, you know, been on your show a couple of times at least, speaks about the strivers dilemma, the idea of the person who's constantly being successful. To my mind, when it's in midlife, if you've not been successful, you're disappointed and you've got to unravel the expectations. If you've been successful, it's also a problem because you've gotten stuck in the straight jacket of these uniforms. You're wearing six different identities.

And I don't know about you, but at Burning Man, when I take off lots of uniforms or costumes all at once, it's very liberating. But a lot of people at age 50 or 55 don't realize how many uniforms they're wearing. I would admit to succumbing to the striver's dilemma. So here's where you're gonna help me out. Well, first of all, your fellow midlife activist, Arthur Brooks, who's obviously spent on the show a couple of times, he's a friend,

his book, Strength to Strength, really gets at the heart of these ideas that you're talking about. I'm curious, like where his ideas might depart a little bit from yours or where your perspectives, kind of diverge. His idea, his whole thing is, the satisfaction that you're seeking is gonna come from faith, family and friends, basically. You need meaningful work,

but what gets overlooked are those three Fs primarily, right? As we get older, those become much more important. And that gets into like crystallized intelligence and wisdom and all of that. But like, you know, what is your lens on like his work and where might you see it a little bit differently? I would add a fourth F, which I just came up with sitting here

and that'd be frolicking. Okay. Yeah, faith, family and friends are all essential. And just to recap his point of view and, and friends are all essential. And just to recap his point of view and he and I are teaching together at our Santa Fe campus in August. He speaks to the idea that we move from fluid intelligence to crystallized intelligence. When we're young, our brain is fast and focused.

And as we get older, we're not as good at things that require the linearity and the speed. But what we get better at is thinking in a crystallized systemic kind of way, which means connecting the dots. And so I totally agree with him on that. Where I might disagree or at least add is to say, there's a soberness to Arthur's work and to his point of view on midlife and

beyond. There's definitely a sense of service. You know, I love Eric Erickson's point of view, which is at 50 and over, you know, the sentence you need to remember is, I am what survives me. So, you know, you, in my opinion, I'm in the business of serving these days. But I think what is missing there is the sense of frolicking, the idea of time affluence, the idea of being a beginner at things and being bad at it. And yes, you can be frolicking with friends and family and maybe even in faith,

but the idea that actually seeking awe and going out and with the time affluence you have as you get older, just having the best time of your life in terms of the things that might have been dreams earlier in your life, I reached out to my two sisters to like go and walk the Camino, which is not necessarily frolicking. And there's a faith element to that for sure.

But I haven't had time in my life to do that. I haven't had time in my life to learn to juggle, which is something I'm starting to learn. I haven't had time in my life to actually do a lot of things that I'm starting to learn to do. The key, I think, to having a great second half of your life is to actually shift out of the fixed mindset of I've got to prove myself and I've got to go

and do things I do well to the growth mindset of I'm here to improve myself and the definition of success is learning. And so the one of my favorite cocktail party questions I ask when I meet people for the first time is, so what in your life are you a beginner at these days? And a lot of people go running for the bar or for the bathroom because it's sort of a weird question,

but it's a pretty important one because if we only play games that we can win, our sandbox, proverbial sandbox gets smaller and smaller and we get bored with life. And there are a lot of people we know who are our age, we're different ages, we're about a six year age difference, who are bored with life,

but it's partly because they're not willing to become a beginner again. I wonder if part of that also is due to just the calcification of the mind that sort of progresses as we get older. Like we just become set in our ways, more resistant to things that are outside of our comfort zone.

We like things the way we like them. We orient our lives around those things. And it's easy to just not have to look at that stuff. And nobody wants to invest in the things that are weak at, right? And amidst that, we lose that relationship with play though, like the fun and the frolic that you're talking about. Like that just becomes a frivolous,

kind of triviality that isn't something that people of our age should be spending our time thinking about. There's something called type two fun. And type two fun is when you're doing something that's hard and maybe embarrassing in the moment, but afterwards you laugh about it and it actually felt good and you're glad you did it. And so at MEA, we do that,

like we have people bake bread together. Like, why do you do that? It's apparently because there's collaboration, but also it's type two fun. You learn to surf, you learn to horseback ride, you learn improv, you learn karaoke. I mean, so the idea that we help people to be really bad at something and to do it in public

with other people who are being bad at something and to do it in public with other people who are being bad at the same time. I mean, that's not the only reason people come, but it's a sort of subtle underlying element because you're right. There are a lot of people who don't want to try something new, you know, after age 50. And then there's a growing number of people

who realize that curiosity and openness to new experience are two of the most important variables for living a longer, healthier, happier life. So Peter Drucker, famous management theorist, had a point of view, which was every two years, he would study a new topic that had nothing to do with being a management professor and an author, whether it was Japanese flower ranging or medieval word strategies. And he'd become one of the worlds doing experts on it because he believed that curiosity and learning something new was like an elixir for his soul.

So how do we do that? How do we help people not calcify, but instead say, oh, I've got some time and I've got some maybe if I'm oh, I've got some time. And I've got some, maybe if I'm lucky, I've got a little bit of money and I can go try some things and laugh at myself. I've asked this question before, but I'm curious your perspective on it.

Some people are naturally more curious than others. Do you think that curiosity, the more I think about curiosity, I really think this is foundational to, you know, wellbeing, longevity. Like if you can be curious about the world, about other people, about yourself, that is a sustainable source of fuel

that is going to keep you engaged with life and, you know, kind of lead you in wonderful directions and new experiences, et cetera. But if you are somebody who is relatively incurious, is this a trait that can be taught and enhanced? And how would you do that? My friend of mine, Scott Shigoka has a great book called Seek, all about curiosity.

Curiosity is a skill. I mean, it's not an embedded way of who you are. I mean, we were all as kids curious. And you know, the Harvard studies of showing that we ask 10 times more questions at age five than at age 15 suggests that we are born curious. And I believe that's true. And somehow the curiosity gets bred out of us. And somehow the curiosity gets bred out of us.

And in the curiosity being bred out of us, we learn how to take tests, standardized tests. And then we learn to jump on the treadmill of a career path that doesn't give you time to be curious. Curiosity is inefficient. Companies that wanna be curious, but don't create the space for it, let's be curious in this 30 minute meeting

we're gonna have that doesn't work so well. So curiosity requires a certain amount of being open to being wrong, open to asking bigger questions, giving the time and space to explore it. And then having a bit of a feverish passion for exploring and trying something new. You had the explorer, what was his name?

Alex Hutchinson. Alex Hutchinson on the show not too long ago. Great episode. And about learning how to explore. And learning how to explore is something we do as kids. Unfortunately, we have got kids to a place where they're not exploring as much for safety reasons and for all kinds of reasons,

but helping people to realize that, there's an imposter syndrome. Jeff Hamoui, one of my co-founders talks about the imposter syndrome needs to be replaced by the explorer syndrome, which means that you're asking questions as opposed to being self-critical. I like that.

Learning how to seek out awe is an important piece of it. Dacher Keltner, who I think you should definitely have on your show, UC Berkeley professor, star of the greater good science center, also on the MBA faculty, wrote a book a couple of years ago called, Awe, Cultivating Awe, it allows you to see yourself as something in a universe

that's much bigger than yourself. It helps you to move and focus on the wonder of the world, not just the weight of the world. And so what he found, which was really interesting, he found the eight most common pathways to awe. Number three on the list was nature. You'd think that would be number one, but number one and number two are fascinating. Number one was moral beauty and number two is collective effervescence. Moral beauty being witnessing compassion and kindness and courage and resilience and equanimity

and feeling like if that person can do it, I can do it. Also moral beauty is watching the birth of a baby. Collective effervescence is what we experience at Burning Man, which is the idea of ego separation starting to actually dissolve in a sense of communal joy come in its place. You see a lot of that at Maha Kumbh Mala as well. So the value in curiosity and having a point of view that I am going to go out and do an awe walk right now

means that you move out of the ghetto of the brain and the ego and into that childlike perspective of I am small in something that's much bigger than me. And that's really healthy for our egos, it's healthy for our humility, but it's absolutely healthy for bringing an inquisitive mind to the world. absolutely healthy for bringing an inquisitive mind to the world.

So we've got two dogs, Ama and Moses, and they're gigantic. They're great Pyrenees, incredible beings, so gentle, who've become such a huge part of our family and have taught me and Julie and our kids so much about what pure unconditional love actually looks like, even after they've tracked more mud through our house than you can possibly imagine. And just like we're intentional about our nutrition, we feel the same responsibility towards our furry family members. And that's where Ollie comes in. They're doing dog food differently. No mystery ingredients, just real food, fresh food, whole ingredients like sweet potatoes and blueberries. And get this, they've got this amazing health screening

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They're abstractions though. They're difficult for people to get their heads around. I like that, that kind of kind of way of defining it, what it actually is that could actually translate into a practice. Like we all, oh, you know, you need to experience, well, oh, go walk in the woods or whatever. But if your mindset, if you're not open and present to that

because you're like obsessed with the guy, you got to call back or whatever, you're never gonna be able to have, make yourself available for that. Yes, there are people who can't. But the thing you could do is you go walking with your dog regularly. What if you went walking at least one day a week

for a longer walk with your dog, doing what I call spying on the divine, which means you go out and the question you ask, and you're not listening to Rich Roll's podcast when you're doing this, you're actually taking everything in by yourself with your dog, and you ask the question, nature, what are you here to teach me today? And just do it once a week. And instead of going for a 20 minute walk with the dog, go for a 40 minute walk, but go to a different location

that you don't normally go to. Because part of the reason we love to travel is because we have a different pair of eyes, you know, or glasses when we're seeing the place we're going to. If, you know, habits are awful because they get us stuck. I mean, the difference between a routine and a ritual, according to the African scholar

Malo Del Massomi, is in a ritual you're willing to be altered. But we live our lives in a very routinized kind of way. And so the ritual of once a week going into nature, spying on the divine and asking the question, nature, what do you have to teach me today? And being open to that and then coming back and writing a few things, that is a practice you could actually develop in one's life and only have to do it once a week to get some benefit out of it.

So routine is the enemy of the antidote of which is ritual. Ritual, ritual is, I love that, the quote, you know, the ritual, in a ritual, you're willing to be altered. In a routine, you're exactly the opposite. In a routine, and we live very routinized lives, in a routine, you want things to be the same.

So you're commuting in LA. So one of the things you could do is say like once a week, I go a different path and I drive a different path. That's gonna be slower. Your routine is gonna be more efficient. Again, curiosity is not efficient, but being willing to try something differently is good for your brain.

And the time affluence then becomes more important. It's sort of paramount to that, right? Time affluence is important. Like you have to carve out time to indulge these things. I started my spying on divine thing during COVID. I was living in Baja, our MEA campus was empty for six months and bottom line was I had a lot of time. So Monday, Wednesday, Friday from two till five,

I went out and hung out with my dog, Jamie, spying on the divine. So you sometimes have to put it in your calendar. That's another thing. I mean, I try to keep my Sundays as a Sabbath. I am someone who was an extreme introvert as a kid, maybe a little bit like you, that became a significant extrovert in my adolescence and especially in my adulthood. And as is true for three quarters, two thirds to three quarters of people over 50, I am moving back toward introversion.

And so I'm a bit of an ambivert. So my Sundays are my Sabbath where I, yes, I check email occasionally, I do, but I'm out in nature and I'm usually by myself, partly because I need that. I know that's part of my, but I also need it from the curiosity perspective. And I like to write.

And so, you know, I come back often from a two or three hour hike and I'm flowing with ideas. It's a great way to become the conduit, you know? I've spent most of my life being the conduit hero, but I wanna be the conduit now, go from conduit to conduit. A few years ago, and we had 3,500 employees in my company and Jouad Aviv, I gave every single one of those employees at our holiday party a copy of the book,

The Little Engine That Could, because that was the book that defined me. Like, okay, I think I can, I think I can, I think I can. You know, you and I have a lot in common. Yeah, mine was the early bird gets the worm. Yeah, it makes sense. Which describes our swim. That became the blueprint for my entire life.

Oh my God, yeah. So for me, giving that away, I was like, I can do it. I think I can, I think I can, I think I can. And I've come to realize that sometimes there's an archetype that defines us or an identity that has been imprinted in our mind that we have to let go of or at least dose it down. And for me, it's the hero. And it's like, I'm dosing down the hero.

I don't have to be the conduit hero. I can be the conduit. Something comes through me. And part of my role, as I learned at Airbnb when I went from being the CEO of my own company to being the guy behind the scenes, the guide on the side as opposed to the sage on the stage, how can I help support and serve and coach in a way that means that I don't have to do it all? I don't have to come in and save the day,

which was a big ego stroking proposition. The can do guy or the person who's getting up early to get the worm, this is the archetype of the striver who ultimately faces the dilemma, right? Yeah. I'm definitely somebody for whom love has always been interpreted as transactional rather than unconditional.

Why is that? And my deservedness to it is a function of, what I can accomplish and achieve in the world. And that is so deeply imprinted in my soul as a consequence of a certain upbringing. But so, can we unpack that first? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I wanna talk about-

This is the therapy session that I'm looking for, Joe. That's right, Dave and Nancy, your parents. You know, I listened to your 2019 episode with your dad when his George Marshall book was coming out. And you know, I can see a bit of a driver too. You know, he was corporate lawyer, antitrust lawyer. And by the way, how's your mom doing? Is she doing okay?

It's not a great situation. The dementia is really kind of progressing rapidly. Yeah, this is another thing that we deal with in midlife for sure. So, you grew up in an environment where you're the only son and the oldest. Same here. I happen to be Chip off the old block, Stephen Townsend, Connolly Jr. So I think part of it is how much of this was familial and how much was our own self-imposed. And I think over time,

we learn that, and I'll never forget when my parents went out to dinner with me, we learned that, you know, I'll never forget when my parents went out to dinner with me at a, we had a hotel in Huntington Beach that, you know, we were opening not too far from where I grew up in Long Beach called the Shore Break. And my parents were doing an intervention on me without me knowing it. And so we're at dinner and they had come to the grand opening party and we were hanging out and, and they said to me something that I needed to hear, which was Chip, we love you and for all of your successes, but we just love you for who you are.

You don't have to keep being on that treadmill of success. It was so unusual for me to hear that from them that I didn't know whether they were my parents, because I'd gotten in my head, you know, through my actions that I am earning love. So it was really, I found it very awkward as someone, you know, my parents are not very, they're not naturally sort of personal growth kind of people or people who like to talk about them, you know, the deeper issues of life. And they were actually sort of doing this intervention

to sort of like help me to get off of the treadmill. And it was frankly, maybe a year or two after that, that I had my NDE, which was what got me off the treadmill ultimately. But I would just say that I am still, I still throw myself back on the treadmill. I mean, MEA is the newest treadmill. The key is to say like, am I doing it differently

than I've done it before? Because if we're repeating the past, we haven't learned the lesson and we haven't gained the wisdom. So we're supposed to metabolize our life experience, learn the lessons from it, and then change our life accordingly and share that wisdom with others.

There's a beautiful quote from David Viscotte, the purpose of life is to discover your gift. The work of life is to develop it. And the meaning of life is to give it away. I would change gift to wisdom. The purpose of life is to discover your wisdom. The work of life is to give it away. I would change gift to wisdom. The purpose of life is to discover your wisdom. The work of life is to develop it and the meaning of life is to give that wisdom away.

So I am doing it differently this time, but I'm still plagued by that occasional feeling like, Chip, go out and strive, strive, strive, even as someone who's teaching it. So, but at this point I have let go strive, strive, strive, even as someone who's teaching it. So, but at this point I have let go of the parental piece of it, thank God. And now I know it's an inside job.

I would say I do that sometimes well, sometimes poorly. That intervention is probably something I've been looking for my whole life and we'll never get. You know, like- Don't say we'll never get. Dot, dot, dot, yes. Trust me. We have not gotten yet.

You know, the- No, no, no, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Okay. Go ahead. So you don't wanna be calcified, do you? Of course not. Okay, so maybe you could be open with the dot, dot, dot yet. You haven't gotten it yet,

or you've gotten it in small doses. You'd like to get it in big doses. No, what I'm saying is it's not that I'm not getting the idea and trying to embrace that idea and practice it as much as, but I'm taking responsibility for doing that for myself. And what I'm not doing is looking at like my parents to say those things

that I've always wanted them to say because they're not gonna say it, because that's not what they think or believe and making peace with that, like that's okay, right? While acknowledging that I have this way of being in the world that is very much rooted in my childhood experience that informs decisions I make as an adult.

And many of those decisions are oriented around striving. If I just get to that next thing or achieve that next level, then I'm gonna get the love and acceptance that I've been craving my entire life, right? And then instead doing that job for myself while also recognizing the ways in which I trip myself up along the way. So there's Carol Dweck from Stanford

popularized the idea of mindset. And she says there's four steps towards shifting from a fixed to a growth mindset. The first one is you have to acknowledge and let go of the mindset you're ready to let go of, that isn't serving you anymore. So, you know, maybe the mindset is that I have to strive to earn love.

And then the next step is to say like, okay, what triggers that mindset? Because just acknowledging it and letting go. At MEA, we do that at a fire and have people throw into the fire what it is they're ready to let go of. But then you've got to look at the triggers, because just because you throw something away and let go of it in a sort of collective ritual doesn't mean you don't have triggers that

come up. For me, social comparison is a trigger. So when it comes to, I love meditation, close my eyes. And you know, meditation has worked for me ever since I learned about it more than 40 years ago at Esalen. But yoga, on the other hand, has always been a struggle for me because I have my eyes open and I lived in San Francisco a long time and I was surrounded by people who were much better at it than me. And so social comparison was my trigger. Once I saw that and realized that's my trigger,

I started working with Teddy on our MEA staff to do one-on-one yoga. Because there was, other than with my dog, Jamie, who does a mean downward dog, there was no social comparison. So the trigger's a really important piece. The third piece is to name it. So when you're in that state, Rich,

and you're sort of saying, this is how I'll always be, I will not be able to let go of being the striver, then you need to name it. When it comes to me, when it comes to yoga, I name it and I call it stiff upper chip. So like when I'm in a yoga class and I'm social comparison and I'm laughing and I'm very stiff in my upper body, I will try to laugh at it because laughing at something is the best way to learn. And it's the best way to move from fixed, where you're going to be self-critical about yourself, to a growth mindset, to actually being open to learning and open to seeing yourself in a new way and believing that you can grow into a skill.

And then the fourth piece is replacing it with something new that actually feels true to you. So for me, the truth is not, I love yoga. The truth is I love how I feel after a yoga class. So those four steps, letting go of, I hate yoga, seeing my trigger of social comparison and seeing if there's an alternative way to do it, having a naming of it so that I can say, oh, that is not Chip.

That's just Chip when I'm in that state. This is not rich. It's just rich when he's in that state. And then going to the fourth step, which is replacing it with something new that can actually act as a magnet. So I know I feel great after a yoga class. I know the 10 minutes before it starts,

I'm freaking out a little bit. And then 10 or 20 minutes into it, I'm like, fuck, what am I doing? There's so many other things I could be doing right now that I'd rather be doing it and I'd be doing better. But by the end of the class, my body feels better. So it is that process, the kind of process of mindset management

that shifts you is so essential during midlife because in midlife, we have the opportunity. If you're 54 years old, which is the average age of the person who comes to MEA and you're gonna live till 90, you have as many years of adulthood, 54 to 90, 36 years, as you do behind you of 18 to 54. So you're halfway through your adulthood at 54. You're 58.

If you're going to live till 98, my dad and I went scuba diving in Indonesia a few years ago. He was at the time 80, he's 87 now, and I was 58. And so I said to my dad before we went out scuba diving, my dad did not learn to scuba dive until he was 60. And then he did 2,500 dives between age 60 and 80, partly because he would dive with sharks in the Long Beach Aquarium down here in Southern California twice a week.

Long story short is my dad said he was gonna live till 98. And when I asked him how long you gonna live before we went out for scuba for the day. And he did the math for me, he said, Chip, if I lived till 98 and I'm 80, I've just started the fourth quarter of my adulthood. And I did the math and I said, if I lived in 98, and I was 58 at the time,

I was exactly halfway between 18 and 98. So one of the things we have to get used to is the idea that we have to have some longevity literacy to realize we're living longer. And so one of my favorite questions and one I might ask you and I'll answer it as well, is 10 years from now, what will you regret if you don't learn it or do it now?

Because anticipated regret is a form of wisdom. So for me, I'll go first. I asked this question when I first moved to Mexico, I don't know, eight or nine years ago, and this is how I went out from the mindset of I am too old to learn Spanish, and I am too old to learn to surf. I at age 57 started to learn how to surf, 56 or 57, and to learn Spanish. Now I wasn't good at either, and I'm still not very good at either, but thinking about 10 years from now at 66 instead of 56, how will I feel?

Will I regret that I didn't learn Spanish 10 years earlier at 56? And, or I didn't learn to surf. So today, you know, I have sons who are 13 and 10, or biological sons with a lesbian couple, and Eli and Ethan, and I'm a lesbian couple, and Eli and Ethan. And I'm like, my, you know, what will I regret if I don't learn it or do it now is I will regret if I'm not hanging out with those boys at least, you know, and they live in Houston

and I live in a variety of different places. I want to spend time with them a lot, you know, at least once a month or every other month to just be with them because their teen years are really important and I can't get that back. So that's the anticipated regret, which leads to the catalyst of like, okay, I've got to take this action.

So what might you regret if you don't do it? Yeah, I mean, it's a little different from me. I don't really think about learning new skills in that way. I have the benefit of having this career, this vocation that nourishes my curiosity. So I have this privilege of being able to just say, I'm curious about this and I'm gonna read this book and then I'm gonna get the woman or the guy here

and I'm gonna talk to them. And I find that to be a way of kind of being in a growth mindset and always being open to new ideas and things, some of which I practice, most of which I don't, it just goes into the soup. So I don't spend a lot of time thinking about like, oh, I need to learn how to juggle or I need to learn Japanese.

I would say for me, they're more like ephemeral ideas. Like I wanna make sure that I'm having the most connected intimate relationship with my wife and my children that I can and that starts now. Like your future relationship with your kids is about like how you're managing that in the present moment, right? So like doing those things to, you know, see that future relationship into my older years.

I mean, I would say that's the most important. I mean, there's things like travel and yes, I would like to, you know, have time affluence to focus on surfing and things like that. There are things that I wanna do, but I think part of the problem that feeds my strivers dilemma is that I started this thing that I love like much later in,

like I've kind of found my thing late in life, right? You know, at 45, 46, you know, I started doing something that felt like the proper career path for me, that most people probably find in their late 20s or early 30s. And there's positives and negatives about that. The positives are, it keeps me fresh and young,

and I'm surrounded by people who are much younger than me, you know, and I delude myself into thinking I'm their age. The negatives of which are that it's probably keeping me stuck in this relationship with my own ambition and achievement much longer than is healthy, right? And I have awareness around that. So I think, you know, what would I regret? I would regret if I allowed, you know,

my workaholism or obsession with my vocation to overshadow these things that are obviously long-term, much more important. But I am connected to this idea that, I mean, you mentioned like, oh, you know, you put this thing out into the world and, you know, in terms of eulogy, like that's meaningful for other people. Yes.

And like, I'm also aware that it's transient. Like I'm going to, this thing will end one day and I'll be, you know, in my later years and eventually dead and everyone's going to forget about this. It's like, it's not that big of a deal. So learning how to like hold onto it a little bit looser and not be so precious so that I can, you know, create the space, the time affluence to, you know, frolic and, you know, pay attention.

It's like hard to relax, right? Like really prioritizing those things. And also with friendship, which is a big thing, like, you know, I wanna get into the friendship piece because there is a loneliness that happens at this stage of life when you've lost touch with your friends and the phone feels heavy to pick up and really getting into a habit of nourishing

those friendships as this wellness practice that you talk about. Yeah, well, I like to call it social wellness. And social wellness, you know, wellness starts with the letters W-E-We, and illness starts with the letter I. And it doesn't mean that focusing on yourself is gonna make you ill, it does,

is a reminder to me that wellness has a social component to it. And whether it's Phil Pizzo at Stanford or Bob Waldinger at Harvard or Dan Buettner, who's a faculty member at MEA at Blue Zones, they all show the same thing, which is the number one correlated variable with living a longer, healthier, happier life

is how invested are we in our social relationships in midlife and beyond. This is a big issue for men. So we were talking earlier about midlife crisis for men versus women. Women are less lonely in midlife than men are. And it's partly because women have kept their social relationships and that muscle

in their 20s, 30s and 40s. Women actually are much better jugglers and men actually often have let that go. And so they all of a sudden have some time affluence and they don't have anybody to share it with or they're in their 50s. And it's not a surprise that, you know, men tend to actually commit suicide or to die by suicide

much more than women, partly because they don't express what's going on inside. It's a powder keg. And so for a lot of men, their friendship muscle is atrophied and it's around midlife that they start to realize that, but then they don't wanna talk about like, I'm lonely or I don't have friends

and because they feel like a loser and they don't know how to be vulnerable and they don't wanna necessarily talk to their spouse about it because they feel like a loser and they don't know how to be vulnerable and they don't wanna necessarily talk to their spouse about it because they feel embarrassed and they end up, you know, we get a lot of men at MEA who come and it's like, wow, I have been underwater with no air for decades and I've needed the sustenance of, you know,

collective effervescence and being connected to other people. Jeff, again, one of our co-founders at MEA talks about friendship as a practice. So if friendship were a practice, how might you come at it differently? If you had some intentionality around it? You know, I give a lot of speeches and sometimes for a longer speech, I'll be on stage and I'll say, okay, take out your phone,

which is the last thing a speaker usually is gonna say to an audience, but take out your phone. And I want you to spend the next two or three minutes crafting a simple text to somebody you have not been in touch with for a while, who's important to you and meaningful to you. And you can say to them just how much they mean to you. You can say, hey, I would like to do a Zoom call with you, or I'd like to catch up and

go for a walk with you. And I want you to do that right now. And it's really interesting afterwards. I give all the speeches and I have slides and all that. The thing I hear over and over again is like, thank you. Thank you for giving me the space to do that. And it's sort of weird. It's like, you could have done that on your own.

But the fact that everybody- But it's very practical and simple and achievable. Everybody's doing it at the same time. Everybody's doing it. And we all have now dedicated three minutes to actually making a connection. And my connection with Alan Muchuar, who I'm gonna call out here, who is somebody, my best friend in high school.

We both went to Stanford. You and I both went to Stanford a few years apart. You had skipped Kenny as your coach in swimming. I had Dante Desamante as my coach in water polo. Alan and I went to play water polo at Stanford. He was really good. He was an 88 Olympian, I think. He went to the Olympics.

He would have gone in 80, but we didn't go to, where is it? Russia, I guess it was. Yeah, it was Moscow. And 84, he was in medical school because he became a doctor. Alan and I were like, we're buddies. And then we went through a separate ways.

I became a business person. He became a doctor and he got married and was straight. I was gay, and we lived different lives. And last summer, I decided I was going to invite 16 of my friends from high school to the MEA campus in Santa Fe to go through the program together as a way of reconnecting all of us at that point about age 63 or 64. And I reached out to Alan and I said, you know what? I really want you back in my life. Now it took some vulnerability to say that, but he came with his wife, Janine, and my partner Orin is Israeli and she's Jewish

and like, oh my God. And so then they came and hung out with us in Baja and we're good friends again. But it required me to be open to being vulnerable and putting that out there. And the other thing I'll just say is that for a lot of people I know that come to MEA, we've 7,000 graduates from 60 countries, they come and they say, you know what? We had third vault conversations here.

I'll talk about what third vault is in a minute. And I can't have that with my friends or my family members. And you know, what I think is true a lot of the time is that you've not outgrown your friends, you've outgrown the conversations you're having with your friends. So the question is, how do you open that up?

And one of the things I learned at MEA was this guy, Aaron Taylor, he was a NFL Super Bowl ring winner. He won the Super Bowl twice with the Green Bay Packers. And Aaron was a big, husky lineman. Went to Notre Dame, offensive lineman, first round draft pick. And then he spun out of control, as a lot of people do, a lot of athletes do, when he got an injury at 28,

and all of a sudden, he went from being a VIP to a PIP, a previously important person, because he'd spent his whole life since, you know, adolescence being a big-time football player. And he had drugs and alcohol issues. And long story short, he found his way to sobriety. And he ultimately said, there are three ways we communicate in life. The first vault in our communications

are the facts of our life, often in our brain. That's how we talk to each other at a cocktail party when we're meeting people for the first time. The second vault is in our heart, and it's the stories. And stories can be both liberating, but also incarcerating because often we get stuck in our stories and our friends and family members remind us that we do. And then the third vault is when you're speaking

with others from the essence of who you are, that gut, that soul, that unfiltered, unplanned way of communicating, which you do on this podcast, conversation matters. And so that is what people are starving for, is not small talk, it's big talk. And it's the idea of having deep conversations with each other. If you want to have long-term friends, have deep conversations. And so, you know, Arthur Aaron has his 36 questions that will help you fall in love. You know, break that out with another couple and have, you know, once a month have a dinner

with another couple where you're going over three of his 36 questions. Come to MEA to a workshop with your spouse and another couple and have that kind of connection as a result of it. Too many of our relationships today are both partisan but also surface level. And we deserve, as we get older, to peel back the onion to see what's there. Today's episode is brought to you by Roka. You know what's funny? We don't often think of eyewear as performance gear until it starts to get in the way. And if you're like me, somebody who has contended with eyesight impairment my entire life, it's a very real thing without a real solution for athletes.

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You know, like that friend they haven't talked to for a long time that they miss and they'd like to have back in their life. Their history with that person dates back perhaps decades. And maybe despite this rich, deep friendship was one, because of age was relatively surface level. You wanna reach out to that person. You understand the three vaults of communication,

but to go right to vault three, like out of the gate, like how do you begin to cultivate that with somebody who maybe isn't like super interested in going to the MEA campus to do it, right? Like a practical version of like picking up the phone and rekindling. I mean, Dale Carnegie famously helped people to know that the most important thing people wanna hear

is their name and questions about themselves. So be curious about the other person, not necessarily inquisitive questions that are gonna be off-putting or too sensitive. Just start with the basics. Start with the first vault. The first vault is people are very comfortable and conversant in talking about the facts of their life.

And then you can get into the stories of someone's life. But to try to go to vault three immediately in normal life, not in a workshop kind of format, yeah, it doesn't make a lot of sense unless it's a friend who says, you know, I want to be intimate with you. I really want to have a conversation that's going to go deep. So yeah, so I would just say you start with the simple stuff. But there's nothing wrong with at least putting it out there that, hey, I'm reaching out to you, I haven't talked with you in 20 years, partly because I've been thinking about

you occasionally, and I was just curious how you're doing. And it would be great to at least do a quick catch-up. When you do mentorship in the world, and I've done a lot of mentorship in the world, you don't start with the M word, mentorship, just like you don't start with the M word marriage when you're dating. You start with, hey, let's just do a catch-up. Because if you say, oh, you know, I'd like to have a deeper friendship with you again, that may feel really weird to someone who hasn't had 20 years. Now, in the case of Alan, I just said, you know, we're going to be having this thing

this summer, and I wanted to like catch up with him. I reached out to him on Facebook messenger and that's how it happened. But what happened over time is the onion got peeled back. Yeah, maybe don't start with, hey, you know, we're in middle age. If we wanna have more kind of like connection and meeting in our lives, friendship is important.

It's important to longevity. Yeah. Self-serving. Well, you can say that. That might work with someone who's very much in their head. And let's also recognize, you know, we were talking about this at MEA with Derek, our CEO the other day, and we're doing some longevity programming. And Derek was like, how do we get more men to come to MEA?

And it's like, longevity. Yeah. Like men are obsessed with, not all men, but a lot of men are obsessed with longevity. If you look at the podcasters who are obsessed with it, they're almost all men. And so longevity is a way that you can, if you're a man trying to open the door to another man

to have the conversation, it's like, hey, this is something I heard. Maybe we can try it out. I would say I'd be cautious about saying that because it sounds sort of geeky and weird, but it is true. At the end of the day, our friendships are what sustain us.

They're not nice to have, they're need to have. They are not the wallpaper in the living room of our life. They're the furniture we sit in and they gotta be comfy. Yeah, this question that you asked around regret if you don't do something now or learn it now and this idea of anticipate or regret being a form of wisdom. This is the first in five questions that you have

that everybody who is in or approaching middle-essence should be asking themselves. And the second one, I kind of want to go through them. Second one is how might you curate your life if you knew you'd never retire? Do you think you'll retire? And what does retirement mean to you? I don't even know what that means.

Like that word doesn't feel relevant. Like, of course there will be a moment where this thing that we're doing right now, I won't be doing it anymore. But I don't know that it's going to be an on-off switch. It'll be a slow transition into something else. But I don't foresee or imagine myself in a situation in which I'm not doing anything,

and just like sitting on a dock fishing. Like I don't aspire to that. I aspire to time affluence and being able to kind of enjoy life without being kind of captured by too many obligations or responsibilities professionally. But as long as I'm capable of being productive and contributing, I'm sure that I will find ways to do that.

So exactly. And what you just said, Rich, is what so many people who are Gen Xers and younger boomers are saying, which is the idea that my parents' generation of how they did it may not be how I do it. And there's a lot of reasons for that. And back in the day when retirement communities

started to be built and populated, the average age of people going into them was 65. Today, it's 82. So- It's so crazy. Yeah. Like how old are you? I'm 64. You're 64.

So next year. I go into a retirement community. In six years I would be doing that, like is unimaginable. Okay, so that's the past, but let's also recognize that it was an on-off switch. You worked for the same employer. You know, the average number of jobs a person had

back in 1960 in the course of their career was three. Today it's 13. And so the bottom line is people would actually do backbreaking labor. They were not knowledge workers. And when they got to the place where they could get a pension or Social Security, they would retire. And they would retire and have the leisure life.

And so we sort of created this age apartheid. Young people learn, middle-aged people earn, and retired people adjourn. And they sort of go off to their age apartheid retirement community. And today, you know, the people who are retiring are often not manual labor people. I mean, the people, you could understand why someone wanted to retire at 60 when they've been doing backbreaking labor. But today it's knowledge workers who are retiring

and their brain is still very vivid and full of ideas. And so the idea that you're going to actually go retire and put your brain on hold doesn't sound very appealing to people. So this question, which is if you knew that you were going to live and never retire, and you also knew you were going to live till your 80s or 90s, so you may be doing some form of work, and again, people are doing this portfolio life and titrating down their

work, maybe they're working 25 hours a week instead of 65 hours a week or 45 hours a week. And so if you knew that, you might curate your life differently. You might say, I'm going to take a midlife atrium, which in retrospect I did, but I did because I was so burned out and because I had no idea what I was going to do next. So the difference between what is the midlife atrium? This is a term that came from Mary Catherine Bateson. And she said that, you know,

most people think that their extra longevity is adding an additional bedroom to the backyard of life, as if you're just old longer. And instead, what she said is, no, the ideal way of thinking about life is around the middle of your life or around the middle of your adult life, which for a lot of us is around 50 to 55 or 45 to 55.

We find time to create an atrium because what's an atrium? An atrium is a space to actually reflect and have the light and air to imagine how you wanna curate the second half of your life. A lot of people could use that. We, as a society, could use people saying, oh, I'm having my 50-year gap, my gap year at 50.

Just like you have your gap year at, after high school or after college. Maybe 50 deserves a gap year. And we can create a social construct that helps people to say, ah, it gives me the time and the space. And maybe it's not a year, maybe it's just a month. I mean, literally a sabbatical and actually taking a month off is remarkable. And we talked about the Camino,

you could go walk the full Camino in a month. There's a lot of things you can do and it really rewires the brain. So at the end of the day, I guess what I'm suggesting here is that this idea of learn, earn, adjourn should be shifted. And I think younger people, millennials and Gen Z are teaching this. They are learning to say like, okay, I'm taking a break. You're taking a few months off.

Whereas back in our era, the idea of having your resume have a gap in it was a problem. Like there's something wrong with you. Yeah, and if you're not going to retire, what are the things that you would imagine enjoying in retirement and reverse engineering your life to make space for them? That's right.

I mean, how many people do I hear who come to MEA or just in life and they say, during the time of life when I really wish I'd had time, I had no time. I had time poverty. I was taking care of my parents. I was taking care of my kids. I was having to pay the bills.

I was stressed out. I had no time for any reflection. And so how might we recreate-curate our lives? How might we be age fluid? A term that I really love and have coined with the intention of saying at times in our life we should be 75 and other times we should be 15. And we should have the age fluidity of being both of those things. You should be all the ages you've ever been at any age.

And so I think learning how to break out of the game of life mentality, remember the game of life, that board game where it had one path through life and you got your little plastic car and you got an extra token in there if you got married and if you got your promotion and you bought your first home. And it was a form of American propaganda that meant you had to stay on that path. Within the lines. That's right. It's kind of a nasty piece of business that is, isn't it? Well, thankfully, I think younger people are learning.

It is true. They're learning it partly because they're recognizing that the American dream that we grew up with, which is that maybe we're gonna have a better parent, you know, adulthood and life than our parents, especially financially, is less true today than it used to be. It's less available and also it's less appealing, you know,

because they've seen their elders in various states of unhappiness, having spent their lives pursuing it and are young enough to dream something different for themselves. Yeah. And I do see a greater kind of commitment to the things that do matter,

which are connection, experience, and trying to orient their career trajectories around things that are meaningful as opposed to kind of self aggrandizing. And diversity as well. I think there's a premise that you wanna break out of hanging out with people who are just like you. And I think that we live in a culture in the United States

where that is more true today than it used to be. And, you know, this is not getting up on my DEI soapbox, but I'm just saying that we live in a more diverse culture. Just even the math on it, the demographics of our culture is different than it used to be. And therefore people saying like, okay, well, maybe I'm going to go and spend, I'm not going to live in the United States when I get older.

I'm going to live overseas. I'm going to be an expat. And not because I'm taking a gap year, but because I'm going to choose to raise my kids in Spain. Yeah. to raise my kids in Spain. Yeah, I think the bigger problem is around the lack of opportunity and kind of upward mobility that used to be much more accessible. Buying that home.

And what that is doing to the younger generation adding in or layering on top of that, like the ills of social media that are driving, kind of the loneliness epidemic and all kinds of terrible outcomes right now. Like this is a problem. This is it. This is its own raveling that needs unraveling.

And that's a different podcast. But in terms of this stage of life, this middle essence, we talked a little bit about friendship, but this gets to the third question, which is how are you investing in your social wellness? So beyond what we've already talked about with respect to our connection with friends, what else is packed into that question?

Yeah, I think the thing I would really emphasize here is something I learned in Sunday school, make new friends and keep the old one is silver and the other is gold. Your friendships that you've had from a long time ago can evolve. And the ones that don't, maybe you have to move on from them. But I want to just talk about intergenerational friendships for a moment here, because it's not just about necessarily being friends with the people who are your same age. When we do research on this at MEA,

we find that about 80%, when we ask people to say, who are the five people other than family members who know you best and most intimately? And if you were struggling, you'd want to have a conversation with them. Who are those five? And you write down the name and write down their age. And then we, after they've done that,

we ask them what number of these five are at least 10 years older than you or at least 10 years younger than you. And again, these are not family members. And 80% are usually within a 10 year band of you. So 80% of them are roughly your same age. We need to break out of that. We need to figure out how do we create

more intergenerational collaboration and friendships because we have so much to learn from each other. I mean, one of my greatest experiences at Airbnb being a boomer amongst the millennials was how much I could learn from the younger people. Yes, I was supposed to be the mentor. I was the modern elder, the person that younger people. Yes, I was supposed to be the mentor. I was the modern elder, the person that they called as curious as I was wise.

But what I loved was how much I could learn from the people who are younger than me, including a different perspective. So when you're thinking about social wellness or friendship as a practice, consider the idea that you're gonna have to break out of your age apartheid in order to actually open up to friendships with people who are older

and younger than you. And it's a good thing. You talk about these intergenerational friendship dinners, right? Yeah. The Generations at Dinner, yeah. We started something called Generationsatdininner.com and you'll find it. We serve up, it's like a Jeffersonian dinner. Here's some questions you could ask.

And we've had seven generations in Tel Aviv, in Sydney, in Denver, in Toronto. When you have seven generations at the table, you have five-year-olds and you have people who are 90 years old. The ideal is three or four generations because when you have people that disparate in age, it does drag down the conversation a little bit. But to have a conversation around purpose or about the world's problems and how are we going to solve these problems or love and relationships across the generations is quite beautiful and, quite frankly, it's quite historical.

It's how we used to do things because we often lived intergenerationally in families. Part of this is about the transition from being kind of a knowledge worker or somebody who has that fluid intelligence into the crystallized intelligence version of yourself, which is about being a wisdom worker, right? Like I wanna talk about wisdom for a minute.

So first of all, like how do you define, like what is your definition of wisdom? It's metabolized experience that you share. So being smarter savvy is not a social good. Someone can be smart or savvy, and we know people like this, and they hoard it, their smart and savviness for their own good. But wisdom for thousands of years has been a social good. It means you share it. So it's understanding how do you make sense of your life lessons as the raw material for your future wisdom, but wisdom you can

share with others as well. So it's different than knowledge. We are awash in knowledge, especially in the era of AI. All of the world's knowledge is at our fingertips. But wisdom is different than knowledge. Knowledge is local. Someone could be knowledgeable about a particular topic, but you wouldn't want to ask them about, you know, some relationship advice.

But when someone's wise, it's across domains. So knowledge is local, wisdom is global. And I mean, that's sort of figuratively, it means that when someone's wise, it's valuable across domains. And so wisdom is a way of looking at the world. It's a sense of how the world works based upon the school of hard knocks.

So crystallized intelligence is really this capacity that we develop to leverage all of this knowledge that we have mixed in with all of our experiences to create or kind of synthesize wisdom that it then becomes, if we wanna pursue a life of meaning and fulfillment, it becomes our responsibility to like share for the benefit of others.

Yeah, I think wisdom's making a comeback. I think it is too. But the interesting thing about wisdom is that the younger generations that were we're kind of oriented around, like sharing it with for their benefit are most resistant to it, right? You know what I mean? It's like for centuries,

for the history of humankind, right? Our elders are the receptacles of wisdom, right? The oracles, but younger generations seem pretty insistent upon having to learn these lessons themselves, right? So that they can then develop their own synthesized, crystallized intelligence to in turn share with a younger generation that's resistant to hearing it. Like we have to figure these things out for ourselves.

Yeah. So what is that gap between like, the truth of the wisdom and like actually being open to receiving it and putting it into practice. Well, there's so much here. Let's start with some just data points. And that is that in the next two years, according to the US Department of Labor, the majority of Americans will have a younger boss.

We've never seen this before. So we are living in a culture in which, generally speaking, power is moving to younger people. And workers are staying in the workplace longer. So that's number one. Number two is 75% of millennials say they would like to have a mentor, and only 1% actually have one. So that's number one. Number two is 75% of millennials say they would like to have a mentor and only 1% actually have one. So that's interesting. And Deloitte has shown that when a mentor,

when you have a mentor within your organization and a company and you're a millennial, you are more than twice as likely to stay at least five years. So there's something to this idea of like, how do we develop a mutual mentorship? What you were describing is the historical perspective on mentorship, which is it goes from old to young. I learned at Airbnb, it goes in the opposite direction. The physics, you know, the waterfall can move up the stream too,

in that I could learn things from someone younger than me. The problem with a lot of, you know, older people trying to actually share their wisdom is, number one, it's hard to do with your kids. Let's just start with that. Kids and mentorship don't usually go together. But number two is, OK Boomer, as a meme, came about because a woman said, there's a guy who worked with her who actually, she put a hand in his face and said, okay, boomer, because the guy was telling her how the world works. So thinking that your war stories are wisdom is probably ill-advised. So you don't lead with the war stories.

And you definitely don't lead with saying, here's how the world works. What you lead with is curiosity and openness to like what it is the other person wants to learn. And I wrote a whole book about this called Wisdom at Work, the Making of a Modern Elder based upon that premise. How can you start by evolving your own self so that you're curious?

Because younger people will lean in if you're curious and passionately engaged because they'll notice your energy, not your wrinkles. But if you are coming across as authority, you will come across as a parent and people will disengage. So long story short is one of the things that I really strongly believe is that we all at any age can get wise. When I was 28 years old and I had been running my boutique hotel company for two years, I

was an idiot. I didn't know what the hell I was doing. And one day I went home and took a journal off the bookshelf and I wrote on the cover of it my wisdom book. And I started a practice that I've been doing for 36 years now, which is every weekend I spend 20 to 30 minutes, 20 to 30 minutes making a list of, in a bullet point format, of what I learned that week, personally, professionally, psychologically, relationally, spiritually. And I say, what did I learn?

And then what am I going to do with that learning? How will it serve me in the future? And I do that with my leadership teams in my companies. They're like once a quarter, we sit down at Jouadevive and Airbnb and at MEA, and it's like, okay, what did you learn this quarter? And how's it gonna serve you? And it's an awkward thing if you have a dysfunctional team.

But at the end of the day, for me, you can accelerate your wisdom at any age based upon the idea of learning what the lesson was. And a 70-year-old is not necessarily wiser than a 30-year-old. You could have a 70-year-old and a 30-year-old in a kitchen, and the 70-year-old has a lot of more raw material that is life lessons. But if they don't know how to cook, all of that, those raw material for the recipe don't mean anything.

If you're a 30 year old and you have a lot less ingredients, but you know what to do with them, you can cook a great meal. So there are a lot of 70 year olds who have a lot of raw material, but they've never made sense of the lessons from that. So what would the process be? I mean, you mentioned the journaling,

but like the process of helping that person make sense of it. One of my favorite questions at MEA is this idea of like, we all have wisdom. And the question is, if you were to take your wisdom and put it on a bumper sticker, a bumper sticker of wisdom that feels like it's your wisdom, your wisdom fingerprints on it, not Oscar Wilde who said, be yourself, everyone else is taken, which is a great line.

But your wisdom based upon a life lesson, what is the origin story of that bumper sticker? So from my bumper sticker, I did not prepare for this, so I'm gonna just off the cuff just say, what's a piece of wisdom I might say. If a younger person came to me and said, I'm gonna have lunch with you in a week, I'd like you to come to lunch with a piece of wisdom and the origin story behind it.

One of the ones I would come up with is you can't satisfy everybody. When I, the origin story there was Jeannie Obagi, who I loved, one of my high school friends, she came up to me and said to me, everybody in the high school likes you, and therefore I don't like you. And I said, well, why don't you like me?

And she says, it's because everybody else likes you. And as a people pleaser, I was like, well, what the hell? You've just messed with my, you know, like my- It's amazing that you still remember that. I do, I remember it from age 16. And Jeannie, I'm sorry that I've mentioned you here, but I remember it. And that, so what that helped me with, and as a reminder all the time, is that sometimes you

can't satisfy someone. You know, you can do your best, but I can't force Jeannie to like me. So we have life lessons. I mean, many of mine are business lessons, and I could go through a bunch of them right now, but I'm not going to. Those lessons are jewels. They're value. There's value in them.

But if you hit a younger person over the head with them, and let me tell you how the world works. When I was with Brian Chesky, so Brian Chesky is the CEO and co-founder of Airbnb, and I was his mentor for seven and a half years I was in the company, four years full-time, three and a half years part-time. When Brian was running a meeting in the first few months, I would sometimes interrupt him.

Now I reported to Brian, Brian was 21 years younger than me. I reported to Brian, but I was also his mentor. Weird situation. And so I didn't think he was running a meeting well. And so I sort of like commandeered the meeting. And I realized at that moment, like, wow, I need to intern publicly and mentor privately. The mentor privately meant, you know,

if I had feedback for Brian about how he was running the meeting, I should say that privately, not publicly, like, you know, his parents giving him feedback in front of everybody else in the room. And should say that privately, not publicly, like his parents giving him feedback in front of everybody else in the room. And in turn, publicly means be curious, be open to being not the one who knows everything

in the room, be the most curious one in the room, not the smartest one in the room. Because quite frankly, in tech companies, it's often a bunch of people who are the smartest people in the room trying to one up each other. So, again, that's another lesson I've had that's, you know, another bumper sticker. Well, this is the fifth in your series of questions,

three pieces of advice to your younger self and the origin story for each that illuminates them, right? And this is a practice we can all do. And these are questions we should ask ourselves. Like what are our bumper stickers? That's our exercise we can do with ourselves. But you could also do it, you know, at MEA, we do it with, you know, someone else.

And then we come back together as a whole workshop cohort and we start mining the wisdom in the group. And there's a lot of wisdom. But what's beautiful is the origin story behind the wisdom because that's what's really interesting is to understand where did that wisdom come from? You know, when I asked someone, you know, do you make better decisions today

than you did 10 years ago, 90% of people say yes. But that, why is that? It's because what you learned, it's the painful life lessons of the last 10 years that made you wiser. But you don't think of it, we think of wisdom as being this abstract thing. It's like, you know, the thing that philosophers and,

you know, but no, we all have wisdom. You know, we learn it along the way. And the why is I think wisdom making a comeback right now is because knowledge is just proliferating. It is a commodity. And so helping people to create wisdom management practices in their life, which is really what MEA is all about, helps us to realize no one,

I can learn wisdom from someone else. Someone can share some wisdom, but teaching wisdom is something you do yourself. You actually, and you have to go through a process that helps you to learn that. And a great coach or a great therapist or a spouse can be very helpful here because often we're not objective

to seeing what we're learning. What we see as common sense is to someone else like, wow, that's amazing. Yeah, it is interesting. And reflecting on the advice I would give to younger people. Like all of my instincts around that are like pieces of advice based upon not something that I did well

and benefited from, but like things I didn't do well or wish I had, right? Like the things that stick out are like, you know, for example, like, like, you know, invest in experience, you know, it's because I didn't do that. You know, I didn't do enough of that. And it's only, you know, in retrospect with age and wisdom and experience that I can look back and say,

oh, you know, if I could do it again, I would do that. And I would like younger people to know that that would be something worthy for them to consider. Yeah, I think the value in this exercise and mining that archeological dig inside of yourself is it helps you to realize how much you have learned in the course of a lifetime. And back to the question about meaning,

meaning being the fuel of life, Victor Frankl was in a concentration camp, and he saw that people who passed away were often the people who had lost hope and meaning, not the ones who were the most physically infirmed. So this idea of meaning, meaning comes from the idea of feeling like you're learning something along the way. And so it's a beautiful practice also for people to just feel like, okay,

my life has meant something. I've got something, and I also have something to give away. So I mean, for me, in terms of my life, it's like, wow, I'm now at a stage in my life where I'm now at a stage in my life where I'm constantly still learning. You and I are gonna be together, I think. We're actually doing an LA-based, an event on June 5th around wisdom and learning and about curiosity and midlife.

It's an all-day thing with a bunch of MEA faculty and open to anybody. And it's on the MEA website with a backslash of Rich Roll. But you and I are gonna spend the latter part of the day doing a fireside chat in person, talking about all of these things. And specifically, it'll be a conversation. I really wanna like plumb the depths of Rich a little bit.

I know you like being, I liked hearing Roll On last week. It was good to hear that again. But I like it when we can understand Rich the human beyond the amazing conversationalist. Well, I'm looking forward to it. Yeah. I kinda wanna just go in like blank,

like, all right, we are gonna just hit me and see what happens. Well, that's more fun. Yeah, I know you prepare a lot for these interviews that must take a lot of time. But like just having a conversation, you know, one that meanders and goes wherever it needs to go, you know, who knows?

I'm excited about being able to do that. In fact, that's how we met. Now that I think about it, we met in Miami a couple, two or three years ago, maybe three years ago at a YPO event because you were the MC and you were MCing. And so they asked me, well, would you like to do a presentation or would you like to have Rich Roll interview you on stage? And we'd never met before. And I said, yeah, I'll throw the dice and do the Rich Roll thing.

And so, yeah, and we did no preparation for that. I think we just got up there and- No, we pretty much winged it. There's a funny backstory to that event, which is, I'll tell it quickly, cause it illustrates, you know, kind of putting yourself in new situations. Like nobody had ever asked me to MC an event before.

And so when that came up, no, I was like, oh, that sounds fun. That'll be cool. Like the pressure's off me. I don't have to like get up and do a keynote. I just have to be the person who's kind of like handling the in-betweens and making sure the audience is kind of, you know,

queued in as to what's happening. And then I arrived in Miami. And when I really looked at like what this job was gonna do, I realized I was completely out of my depth. And I started to have a panic attack. I was like, oh my God, like, I don't even know. Like there's so much here.

And I had like a day to get ready and I should have been preparing for weeks leading up to this. But I called my buddy, Osher Gunsberg, who is an Australian television host extraordinaire. Like he does all the big TV shows, you know, The Bachelor and you know, all the, so like this is what, he's like the Ryan Seacrest of Australia.

So luckily I had like the perfect guy and on the phone, he just walked me, he was so patient, walked me through his wisdom and experience to get me in a place where I could handle this, right? And be a beginner again. And be a beginner again. Yeah, I thought, well, like I talk to people, like how hard could this be not really appreciating

that this was an entirely brand new skill set that I didn't have at all. Well, having to do one after another, after another, after another. And frankly, the people who you bring on here, I mean, it's deep two hours. And, but when you have that environment, you know, you're gonna get some clunkers up there

and like, and then trying to bridge between people. Yeah, like being the connective tissue, keeping the audience engaged, entertaining them, letting them know what's coming up, helping them understand what just happened and why and all of it. It's like a whole thing. Like I have so much more appreciation

for people who do that for a living than I did before. You mentioned the June 5th event. So I wanted to ask this question, which is in your capacity running MEA, having all of these teachers come through and all of these students, which are, let's face it, are sort of a self-selected group of people. Like these are people who are already prone to, you know,

all of the things that you're trying to teach. Like they sign up for it. Or their spouse was. Yeah, all right. Yeah, so maybe you have those reluctant, you know, individuals coming, you know, under duress. But I'm curious around what you've discovered or learned about people who are able to, you know,

learn these things and gracefully make this transition successfully versus people who are unable or less successful in doing it. Are there any kind of common traits or characteristics that you can identify like, oh, this person's gonna get it, this person isn't? Yeah, there's sometimes there are flight risks. Like, it's a five day workshop,

it's in Santa Fe or in Baja, and we do online courses as well. But often the person who I think is a flight risk, meaning that they're gonna leave after 24 hours, it's happened maybe three times out of 7,000. It's somebody who's not prepared to explore their life. They're really sort of in a place where they showed up and they, for one reason or another, are just maybe a deer in the headlights.

But we have people who are like hardcore, you know, corporate lawyers, litigators. We had a litigator a few years ago, a couple years ago, came to a cultivating purpose workshop, and she came at 60 years old, prepared to work for all of her 60s. She said she'd graduate at 70, retire at 70, but she hated being a litigator, and she wanted to do something different. She thought she could be maybe a litigation consultant or something, so she wouldn't have to be in the courtroom. But by the end of the week, she realized that she wanted to be a pastry chef.

That's what she'd always wanted to be. And she ended up going to pastry chef school, now she's an entrepreneur as a baker. Often people get very regimented in their thinking that I am this and therefore I have to focus on an adjacency that's close to it. And the moment you take the blinders off, the moment you start to have more options. And so those who flourish, and we have 58 regional chapters around the world, so it's about a bit of a movement, are people who are open to saying, I'm gonna be willing to put on a different pair of glasses

and see myself a little bit differently, and be open to the tools I'm learning here that I can take home with me and to live a better life. And so we have firemen, we have elementary school teachers because we have firemen, we have elementary school teachers because we have financial aid. You know, we have, it's not just tech CEOs or investment bankers. And that's part of the beauty of it,

to be in a workshop with, you know, 20, 25 people who are a very different collection of people. You learn a lot from them. So it's really the impediments here are being closed down emotionally such that any kind of deep self interrogation is interpreted as a threat, right? And then kind of ancillary to that,

like how hard are you holding on to your identity? Yeah. And can you release that? Like until you can summon the courage to kind of investigate yourself and let go, like kind of release your grip on who you think you are, like those are the entry points towards making progress. Yeah, the main reason people come

is they're going through some kind of transition in their life. And whether the transition is menopause or it's changing careers or retiring or emptiness or a cancer diagnosis or parents passing away, you know, getting divorced. When people are in transition, they are often more open to exploring new ways of doing things, similar to me and my NDE. And that's why, you know, if anybody is curious about this, you can go to the MEA website

at the bottom footer, MEA website, MEAWisdom.com, and you'll see the anatomy of the transition that helps people to understand, you know, how do you transition in whatever your transition is, because that's really the core of our program. It's TQ, Transitional Intelligence, applied to people in midlife. So TQ versus EQ and IQ. That's right. Transitional Intelligence.

Yes, we have copyrighted the term Transitional Intelligence. Ever the businessman. Yeah, that doesn't mean we don't let other people use it. But yeah, we live in an era in which knowing how to navigate transitions and mastering transitions is a modern skillset. It's really one that we all need.

And when we go through adolescence, we're going through all kinds of transitions with a social infrastructure. You're doing it with people exactly the same age, and you're going through your first kiss, your first SAT test, your first job with people who are similarly aged. When we're going through the kind of transitions we go through in midlife or middle-essence, sometimes we're not talking about them, we have no social infrastructure to support them, and sometimes we're doing it at different ages, especially if we've had kids at different

ages, if we have kids. So long story short is, you know, having a social infrastructure, which is what MEA provides, and a toolbox for knowing how to navigate transitions is the primary reason people come, and the primary reason they come over and over again. So I mean, then we have have, you know, Maria Shiro was on the show recently and she's a friend and you know, the Hoffman Institute with the Hoffman process is sort of a good dovetail

for this. Hoffman is what you do to sort out your past and sort of family of origin stuff. And MEA is what you do when you actually say like, okay, what's next? Moving forward. Yeah. Yeah.

So paint the picture of the ultimate middle essence champion. Like what is this archetype? Like who is this person? What is their mindset? And what are the behaviors that they're exhibiting? Like the ultimate, like, you know, gold medal winning champion

of this transitionary phase of life. They're someone going through maybe two or three transitions at once. They are, one of the transitions might be a new found spirituality that has been dormant since they were a kid. So they're curious, but they're also somebody who's been a corporate in the corporate

world as a strategist and using their left brain to an extreme. And they're a little burned out. They're feeling a little stuck. They don't really know. They know what they want to change their career. They just don't know to what. They are separated from their spouse of 25 years. And the kids, the two kids have left home. So they're feeling a bit alone. So that's a profile. Now that profile has a lot in it. Not everybody has all of that in it.

And that's a person, whether that's a man or a woman, that is coming with an openness to saying, I want to understand how I'm going to go through these transitions. What's the T, how do I build my TQ? What's my purpose in life? And I think that purpose is often summed up by something that excites you or agitates you

or something that you're curious about or something that actually feels lost from childhood, maybe neglected? And then what wisdom do I have inside of me and how do I get older in a way that makes me feel good about myself? What if my best years are ahead of me? And so that person comes, they have their five-day experience, they are a part of a cohort of people who stay in touch from all over the world, because we've had people from 60 countries come to either of our campuses.

And long story short is they stay in touch with their cohort. Some of these cohorts have stayed in touch for seven years with weekly or monthly Zoom calls. And they go back to wherever they live. Let's say this person lives in Chicago, and they're part of a regional chapter in Chicago of other MEA alums. It's an ecosystem, and it's a bit of a movement. And I've written this book recently called The Midlife Manifesto that just really captures

the sort of the, I don't know, it's like it's reader's digest version. It's a very short book, short, you know, it's a short read that captures some of the highlights of some of the key elements of the program. It's beautifully rendered and illustrated though. Thank you. You did a great job. And I know you worked with Seth Godin on it. Well, Seth and I wrote a book together long ago.

You were in business school, we talked about that before. Yeah, we were in business school together. Seth actually talked about, he has a definition in the book of manifesto. So what's a midlife manifesto? It's a call to arms. It's a call to action, as opposed to just a deliberation of a bunch of words.

And so that's what this is, because for so many people, they hit midlife and they sort of shut down. And instead I look at it as this newfound midlife activist as an opportunity for people to see it as that metamorphosis, the chrysalis that they're about to break out of so that they can be the butterfly, putting their wisdom out in the world.

The spirituality piece is something that I suspect kind of creeps up on people, right? Like it's inevitable when you reach a certain stage of life and you start asking yourself the deeper questions that perhaps unconsciously you're making room for the ineffable in a way that maybe you haven't prior, right? And it is this stage just to kind of really highlight this part of it where you have to go from ego to soul

and that horizontal line where you're pursuing the ego has to suddenly shoot vertically upwards, you know, towards something greater and more powerful than yourself. And for a lot of people, that's a difficult leap, right? I think it's an opportunity that the world, the universe, whatever you want to call it, like presents you at this stage of life, where perhaps there's a greater openness to these ideas that then there wasn't prior. And with that, like this, you know, experience of being nourished in a new and different way that maybe you haven't been your entire life. Yeah, it's a muscle, just like friendship's a muscle, you know, that that can atrophies spirituality is a muscle. And

Just like friendship's a muscle, you know, the kinetrophy, spirituality is a muscle, and it's a muscle about sort of the inquiry of what is bigger than you. And I believe the soul rests inside of you, the spirit rests outside of you, and it's seeing yourself as part of a bigger constellation. And for a lot of people, that's, you know, death or mortality or the recognition of it is what takes them there. Sometimes, for some people, it's the lifequake, to use a Bruce Feiler term, the author, the lifequake of having a mashup of multiple transitions happening at once in midlife that takes them there. You know, as I said earlier with Richard Rohr,

the idea of the operating system shifting, and all of a sudden you get curious about things that you didn't have time to be curious about before. Trust that. I mean, I think it's part of the reason why introversion, people moving in their 50s into a more introverted state, this has been going on for centuries. introversion, people moving in their 50s into a more introverted state.

This has been going on for centuries, millennia. The Hindu had this thing about the forest dweller, and it's the later part of your life. You go back to the forest from which you came, and from a figurative metaphorical perspective, your body is supposed to become the forest. You're supposed to disintegrate into the forest. And that's your job is to, you know, I'm actually, as we talked earlier, I'm having a conversation with a very well known CEO who left his job in not the best way, not in a way that he's been successful his whole life, a striver. And he's a little bit lost right now because of the fact that like his identity has been this.

But I know this man, I've known him for 20 years. And I know that he's got a curiosity and inquiry about spirituality that's quite deep in him. And so, you know, we're gonna spend some time this afternoon and tomorrow. He's one of those people, and I wouldn't say this to everybody, who I just know this is the time of life in which he's supposed to deepen that inquiry, whether that's going

to divinity school or volunteering at his church or reading the great books. You know, for some of us, that's what our later life is supposed to be. Yeah. I think it would be good to share a little insight or encouragement or wisdom for the person who's listening to this or watching this, who is in the middle of this transitionary phase and doesn't have the skills or the TQ, right? What is the message that you want that person to hear

about how to engage with this time? Number one, you're not alone. Number one, when we're teenagers going through adolescence, we can feel alone. I mean, adolescence is a very different, I mean, I loved your role on conversation about the Netflix series. Adolescence is tough today,

but at least in adolescence, we're going through it with a peer group. The kinds of things that we go through, the transitions of midlife and middle-essence, we're going through often alone, but they're normal. So many of them are normal. So number one is you're not the aberration, you're the normality.

Number two is there are people who've gone through what you're going through now and they've learned something. They've built some wisdom around this. How do you find a place with friends or family members or a workshop where you can share wisdom with others? Because you probably have some wisdom inside of you as well. There are lots of free resources, podcasts, there's lots of books, there's lots of, on the MEA website, at the bottom, there's a footer, there's all kinds of free resources.

Read, but also don't do this alone, whether it's a coach, a friend, a therapist, or somebody in your life who can be there with you. I wish my five male friends, who ultimately took their lives, had felt the comfort to say they were going through a difficult time. So don't do this alone. You will find that the gift you're giving is not just being able to move through this fog that you're in and realize that you're not alone, but you're gonna actually feel like, and feel the sense that you're giving a gift to someone else who's able to help you through that fog.

And one of the many gifts that you are giving is this new book, The Midlife Manifesto. So if you are struggling or trying to make sense of this period of your life, I would strongly encourage you pick it up. And to Chip's point, you can learn everything about what he's doing at meawisdom.com.

And if you wanna attend the June 5th event in Los Angeles, it's meawisdom.com slash rich roll. Exactly. And we're both gonna be there and who knows what's gonna happen. Yeah. It's gonna be good. And you've got some great teachers this year, right?

Oh, we've got Liz Gilbert, Michael Franti, Arthur Brooks, Anne Lamott. Oh, she's great. Yeah, just a bunch of Michael Mead, the mythologist. He's a very interesting guy. I don't know him. Oh, he's, yeah, he has a podcast called Living Myth. He's probably the most famous mythologist,

Joseph Campbell on the planet today. Yeah, just, you know, we specialize in, oh, Krista Tippett. Krista Tippett from On Being is coming at the end of June. I love her. So I'm like really excited to be teaching with her in that workshop in Santa Fe. That's cool.

So you too can attend one of these events and you can learn more at meawisdom.com. So thanks, buddy. I love you. Love you too. You're a gift. You know, the work you're doing is super important and you're speaking to an incredible need out there,

you know, that millions and millions of people all over the world are benefiting from. So thank you for your service. My best to Dave, Nancy and Molly. Yeah, we've got a big study. To be continued. Yes. All right, cheers.

All right. Peace. Peace. That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guests, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com where you can find the entire podcast archive, my books, Finding Ultra,

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