The Rich Roll Podcast - The No Meat Athlete On How He Runs on Plants

Episode Date: October 4, 2013

All hail the running carrot! Today on the show I'm joined by my pal Matt Frazier, the guy behind the wildly successful NoMeatAthlete.com– website, podcast and roadmap series of downloadable tools �...�� an absolute go to resource chock-a-block with information for runners and triathletes of all abilities looking to take their athletic & nutrition game to the next level. Matt founded NoMeatAthlete in 2009, about the same time he went vegetarian. Six months later, Matt qualified for the Boston Marathon with a time of 3:09:59 at the Wineglass Marathon, over 100 minutes faster than his first marathon time seven years prior. In June 2010, Matt ran his first 50-mile ultramarathon, recently completed his first 100-mile race and has run several more ultras and marathons each year since. What's great about Matt is his sincerity, authenticity, transparency and relatability. He's not a world-class athlete, just a friendly, smart and resourceful guy who started experimenting with running and diet and wanted to share what he was learning. A site that started out as little more than a personal document of his experiment in food and fitness, NoMeatAthlete has morphed over the last few years into one of the web's leading resources when it comes to information relating to the intersection of running and plant-based lifestyle. The best part? Matt is genuinely a really nice guy. A guy you just want to see win. Like Rudy — a comparison that will put a smile of irony on your face when you hear our parting words at the end of the interview. Now Matt has taken all he has learned, and synthesized it into a new Book: No Meat Athlete: Run on Plants and Discover Your Fittest, Fastest, Happiest Self* — do yourself a favor and check it out. Let's support this guy! Finally – a note of thanks. Just a few days ago we surpassed ONE MILLION DOWNLOADS of the podcast. That's right. A cool million. That just blows my mind wide open. Does not compute. Surreal. It's all because of you. So thank you – for everything. There have been ups. There have been downs. And more recently, controversy (see comments on Episode 53 with Durianrider- holy smokes). I appreciate you for sticking around. I am truly humbled and more energized than ever to continue the mission. So much great stuff to come. I hope you enjoy the show! Rich

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Starting point is 00:00:00 Welcome to episode 54 of the Rich Roll Podcast with no-meat athlete, Matt Frazier. The Rich Roll Podcast. Hey everybody, I'm Rich Roll and this is the Rich Roll Podcast. Welcome to the show. What do we do here? Each week, I bring to you the best and the brightest, the most forward-thinking, paradigm-busting minds in health and fitness and wellness. I've had doctors, nutritionists, entrepreneurs, world-class athletes, writers, bloggers, health health professionals all different kinds of people my goal is simple to bring to you the best information so that you can sift through it find what resonates with you
Starting point is 00:00:53 incorporate it into your life so that you can unlock and unleash your best most authentic self today on the show i'm very excited to have my buddy matt frazier you might know him as the no meat athlete from nomeatathlete.com he's the runs on plants guy and uh i've known matt for a couple years and i've been following him online for longer than that if you're not familiar with nomeatathlete.com it is an amazing online resource for people that are interested in learning more about how to eat a healthy plant-based diet and, uh, and to also be fit. Matt's a marathon runner. He's run the Boston marathon. He's got a couple of 50 miler races under his belt and, uh, also has run a hundred miler.
Starting point is 00:01:42 And what's great about his website is he's very authentic and transparent in his journey this is a site that started off just as a place for him to blog about his new experiment and eating a vegetarian diet and seeing what might happen and it's morphed over time into a very active and and robust community that has turned more into an informational and educational resource for people out there that are just looking to up their game, really. For the most part, almost everything on his site is completely free. He's got articles about every conceivable issue that might come up when you're eating a plant-based diet or experimenting with a plant-based diet and also training for a half marathon or a marathon you might have seen on my
Starting point is 00:02:29 site that i've promoted a few of his digital products like his half marathon marathon and first triathlon roadmap series which are downloadable guidebooks to getting you prepared nutritionally and physically for those athletic endeavors. I love Matt. He's a great guy. He has great energy and I just appreciate everything that he's done. And so it was a treat for me
Starting point is 00:02:55 to get a chance to sit down with him and let him share at length the greater extent of his message. And what's really exciting about Matt is he has a book that's coming out October 1st, and we just so happened to both be at the DC VegFest. I'm in Washington, DC right now. So I had the opportunity to be able to sit down with him in person rather than to do this, uh, via Skype to help him get his word out about his book, which I think is a great, um, I gave him a blurb for, for his book and, uh, I stand behind it. I think is great. I gave him a blurb for his book and I stand behind it.
Starting point is 00:03:25 I think he's doing a great thing. It's a great resource. It's called No Meat Athlete, Run on Plants and Discover Your Fittest, Fastest, Happiest Self. It's up for pre-order now on Amazon, but it's going on sale October 1st. If you order it before October 1st, he has all sorts of sort of pre-order incentives.
Starting point is 00:03:47 You can go to nomadathlete.com and check out what those are. So I don't know what date I'm putting this podcast up. It might be October 1st already when it gets published. But if I publish it before October 1st, act now and take advantage of the pre-order offers that he's offering. And in any case, pick up this book
Starting point is 00:04:06 and help support this guy and his message. I think after this interview, you'll agree with me that he's a guy we can all get behind and we should all support what he's doing and his message. So anyway, like I said, I'm in DC, back home. I grew up here in my hometown and it was great to go down to the DC VegFest. I attended this event last year
Starting point is 00:04:26 and this year it seemed like it had doubled in size. It was fantastic. I had a great crowd today to come out and hear me speak and sign books and take pictures and all that kind of stuff. And it was, I don't know, there had to be 500 people. I don't know, I'm terrible at estimating numbers. There were a lot of people that turned up to hear me and the other people that were here speaking. Um, and it was
Starting point is 00:04:48 a delight to be here. Always happy to get up in front of people and talk about the subject I'm most passionate about, which is plant-based nutrition, life transformation, and fitness. So thank you DC VegFest for having me. Uh, before we get into the interview, a couple housekeeping things, I'm going to be in Karachi, Pakistan next week, which is really exciting. Probably aren't very many people listening to this podcast who could attend that event, but I just wanted to share my excitement for the opportunity of getting to go to the Middle East and spread the plant power message there, which should be interesting. And I can't wait to come back and kind of share what that experience was all about. Thank you for all the support with the show.
Starting point is 00:05:30 We really appreciate it. If you've been enjoying the show, the best way to support what we're doing is to use the Amazon banner ad at richroll.com for your Amazon purchases. It won't cost you anything extra. They kick us a few bucks and it's helped us stay in
Starting point is 00:05:47 business over here, keep the lights on, and we just got some nice new equipment. So thank you for the support. You can also donate to the show. There's a donate button at richroll.com. You can do it one time, once a week, whatever. You don't have to do it at all. The show will always be free, but we appreciate all the support that you guys have shown us. If you're interested in dialing up your plant-based nutrition, we have an online course, The Ultimate Guide to Plant-Based Nutrition. Check it out at MindBodyGreen, three and a half hours of online content, online community, all good stuff. What else? I think that's it. I'm getting complaints about these intros being too long, so I'm trying to shorten it up.
Starting point is 00:06:32 We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care, especially because, unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. It's a real problem. A problem I'm now happy and proud to share has been solved by the people at recovery.com, who created an online support portal designed to guide, to support, and empower you to find the ideal level of care tailored to your
Starting point is 00:07:27 personal needs. They've partnered with the best global behavioral health providers to cover the full spectrum of behavioral health disorders, including substance use disorders, depression, anxiety, eating disorders, gambling addictions, and more. Navigating their site is simple. Search Thank you. I really do. And they have treatment options for you. Life in recovery is wonderful, and recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. So let's just get right into it. Ladies and gentlemen, my good friend, the no-meat athlete himself, Matt Frazier.
Starting point is 00:08:38 Enjoy the interview. cool man i'm glad we were able to make this work yeah me too rich i'm really excited to do this i uh i mean we would have done it on skype but it's just awesome that we're in the same city at the same same time at a very precious moment in time for you with your book coming out yeah things uh awesome things have been busy for sure. I'm getting ready to go on the book tour and the month or two leading up to that has been busier than I've ever been, but in a good way.
Starting point is 00:09:15 Yeah, it's crazy. I mean, you emailed me, it wasn't that long ago, I don't know, a couple of weeks ago and you're like, hey, you know, the book's getting ready to come out and we're doing the pre-order thing. And I remember when mine, this podcast could very easily devolve
Starting point is 00:09:28 into a treatise on the publishing industry, which I'm gonna do my best to try to avoid. But I do remember when I was getting ready for my book to come out and I was like, okay, I gotta have all these incentives to get people to pre-order it, which didn't end up really working out that much because I didn't have the following that you have.
Starting point is 00:09:46 Like you've really mastered the internet and developed this really loyal, passionate audience. And they jumped into action because your Amazon ranking, like your book was still like two weeks or maybe two and a half weeks or something like that before it was coming out. And you were the number one book in running.
Starting point is 00:10:03 And I think you were even at the top of individual sports, like ahead of Born to Run and ahead of like these amazing books, you know? And I was like, oh my God, I'm so psyched for you to be getting off on the right foot like that. That's incredible. It is incredible. And I'm extremely grateful
Starting point is 00:10:18 that the No Meat Athlete audience, you know, jumped on that offer and really did, you know, excitedly support it. It's been up and down a little bit in those past two, three weeks, but yeah, it seems like whenever I let people know, like remind them that, that this offer is, you know, kind of running out and hurry up and get it before the release date. They seem to seem to be excited to buy it. So I'm very grateful for that. Yeah, it's cool. But one word of advice, you can very easily get sucked into checking your Amazon ranking all the time.
Starting point is 00:10:49 You got to be careful with that. Yeah, refreshing your Amazon page constantly and fixating on somebody's... Well, it's not out yet, right? So nobody can write reviews? That's right. So that'll be the next thing, like get marshalling everybody to write reviews.
Starting point is 00:11:02 Yeah, and then do you read all the, like, do you read the only the negative ones? I've started writing on Huffington post and the comments on those posts, like, cause they're like posts about like 10 things I learned since being vegan, the posts. I mean,
Starting point is 00:11:17 the comments are just insanely anti-vegan and like, I can't, well, you're probably used to getting really friendly comments on your site, right? It's a self-selecting group of people exactly so once but now you're in the real world yeah welcome to the real world so i just don't read them i mean yeah you can't i would i would stop writing if i did i'm in an interesting thing right now where i mean i was lucky enough to get
Starting point is 00:11:37 i think i have almost 400 amazon reviews nice and overwhelmingly positive mostly five star like you know more than the preponderance of them are five-star. But there's something about the way that the review algorithm works with Amazon where at the bottom of every review, it says, was this review helpful, right? And so if something's a good review, a consumer who's interested in the book
Starting point is 00:12:00 is probably not gonna click, was this helpful? But if it's a negative review, then they'll say, oh, that was helpful because now I know not to buy this book. Helpful. So if you go to the main page for finding ultra, uh, you'll see the, you know, how many reviews and all the stars and see how many other five stars, but then they highlight, you know, like the four reviews or whatever that were most helpful. And they're, they're super negative, you know, and I, there's nothing you could do about it if on the right hand margin there's a bunch of nice things but it's like the main ones that people are going to see are the bad ones and i'm like oh what are you going to do there's also
Starting point is 00:12:33 there's also an algorithm in your head that makes those the ones that you remember like you can get doesn't matter how many good ones you can get the one bad one is the one that you play over and over in your head and of course the algorithm in my head is broken because i will just obsess on that you know like but he didn't uh you know but i you can't engage with that either it's like you're not gonna you can't be healthy and do that no you're gonna make yourself crazy but um but you're off to a flying start which is really exciting and this i guess is kind of we're at the d VegFest, the no meat athlete. You and Doug have a booth set up and you're selling the book and t-shirts. And I spoke today and it was a huge,
Starting point is 00:13:10 I mean, we were both here at this event last year. It looks like it's much bigger this year. Yeah, definitely. It's pretty cool. And that's just a testament to people being interested in this way of eating and this way of life and to see it grow. I mean, I've been doing this kind of circuit
Starting point is 00:13:24 for the last year and a half. And like you know, I like this one, I've gone back to a couple of events that I went to last year and to see them bigger than the year before is really cool and encouraging. Yeah. It's definitely picking up and it's cool to see people like come up with their three and five. I mean, while you were at our table, you saw someone come up with the three-year-old kid and said, you know, we're trying to transition him to vegetarian and we're there, but he's not quite ready to do it. And it's like, it's just very cool that people are even thinking about that. Yeah, exactly. And we're both parents, right. And, and, uh, you know, doing the best that we can. And it's not that we're the ultimate authority on any of these issues.
Starting point is 00:13:57 It's just about sharing your experience, my experience and trying to help people. But yeah, it's great to see so many families and kids interested in it. And now there's so many new food products and just the food trucks that were out there with the huge lines of people trying to get healthy food. It's awesome. It is. And there's also a lot more junk food out there now.
Starting point is 00:14:17 Yeah, there's a lot of vegan junk food. It's getting easier and easier to be a junk food vegan for sure. And it's that weird, I talked about this junk food vegan for sure. You know? And it's, it's that weird kind of, I talked about this in my talk today, that the power of denial where, you know, you can say, oh, I'm eating a vegan diet. I'm being so healthy. But if all you're eating is processed vegan foods all the time, then, you know, might be time to evaluate. And that stuff's good. Like I, I sort of indulge in that once in a while. I don't make that like my go-to everyday practice,
Starting point is 00:14:45 but the stuff tastes so much better than it used to. So it gets harder and harder to say no to that stuff for sure. But I want us to take a step back. And a lot of the people that listen to the podcast, they already know you, they're familiar with your site and all the great things that you've been doing with your blog.
Starting point is 00:15:03 But I want to take a step back and kind of hear your story from the beginning. Like, how did you get into this? Like, what was, what were you doing earlier in life that led you to becoming, you know, the no meat athlete guy? Sure. Yeah, I was, I became a runner in college. I had always hated running as a kid and couldn't stand it in gym class, dreaded the day that we would have to run the mile run. And some friends and I in college, just kind of like the way college guys do, got the idea that even though none of us was a runner,
Starting point is 00:15:33 that we could run a marathon. And one guy said, oh, I'm going to run a half marathon next summer. And then, of course, the next guy said, no, I'm going to do a marathon. And then by the end of the night, all three of us had signed up to run a marathon, none of us having ever run more than three miles in our life. So we it and it didn't go well but we did all finish the race and that was fantastic and then from there i how long how you're young how long ago was that that was 10 years ago that was uh 2002 11 years ago now where'd you where'd you grow up i grew up in maryland north of baltimore and where'd you did you go to school around here no i went down to james
Starting point is 00:16:04 madison in virginia oh sure so great time there and great friends and that's when i kind of got North of Baltimore. And where'd you, did you go to school around here? No, I went down to James Madison in Virginia. Uh-huh, sure. So great time there and great friends. And that's when I kind of got into fitness. And so that first marathon took us four hours and 52 or three minutes, I think. Uh-huh. That sounds painful. Oh, it was our halfway point in terms of time was mile 18. Yeah.
Starting point is 00:16:22 Why is mile 18 where it all breaks down? I don't know. Yeah. That's mile 18 is further than I had ever made it in training. Cause you know, we had a lot of other priorities ahead of marathon training as college kids. Yeah. When you're like young and fit and just sort of working out a little bit, you know, people, that's the common thing. Like you can make it to mile 18, you know, you can kind of fake it to there. Like that's, but that's kind of the dividing line between the people who have really prepared for a marathon and the people that are just winging it right so i uh for some reason got it in my head that i was going to qualify for the boston marathon which at that time took a 3 10 3 hours and 10 minutes which is 103 minutes
Starting point is 00:17:00 faster than my first marathon but i didn't that. It just seemed like a cool race. And I was one, you know, one day I was looking at it and thought that'd be a good one to want to run. And then I realized that you had to actually qualify that they didn't just let anybody in there. And something about that, like I'm not much of a competitive person, but I just did not like that I was not allowed to run this race. So I just kind of made it my mission to get to it. And it took me seven years from that first marathon, but I did eventually get down to 310, but it was at the 320 point or so, 325, 320. I had kind of plateaued in my, just, you know, had stopped improving
Starting point is 00:17:35 really. It was, I was having small improvements, but I was doing everything I could. And I thought I didn't know where, where those last 10 minutes were going to come from. But just to interject, so how long did it take you to go from 450 or whatever it was to 325? I think that took about four marathons and about six years or so. But the first four of those years, I didn't run any marathons. I was not able to run another one after the first one because I had the shin splint and stress fracture issues. So it took me four years to run that second marathon. And then, you know, I ran a marathon each year after that and slowly got down there, but I was still eating just a standard
Starting point is 00:18:13 diet. Like I thought it was a healthy diet. I was eating the chicken breast and the brown rice. And to me, that was a perfect dinner. Didn't even think about vegetables, but did that. And, uh, at about that three, 325 point, I had this urge to go vegetarian. I started to just, I don't know, just kind of feel a connection and compassion for animals that was, I thought, very inconvenient. Like I just thought,
Starting point is 00:18:35 because I didn't know that people were out there doing, you know, what you guys are doing with like really elite level endurance on plant-based diets. So I thought- I don't think I was doing it yet. You weren't then, that's true. But guys like you, like Brendan Brazier, I think was kind of out there
Starting point is 00:18:48 and Scott Jurek had been out there obviously doing it. But yeah, so I just thought, I thought, no, that's impossible. You can't actually do that. Like if I did that, it would just kind of mean giving up on Boston. But when I hit that plateau and I realized I wasn't going to get there
Starting point is 00:19:04 as I was currently doing it, I said, why not just actually try this? And if it doesn't work and I slow down, then so be it. Boston wasn't meant to be. So I just decided to go vegetarian. Wasn't yet vegan or even thinking about that. And said I was going to start a blog to document just how the experiment went, because I still wanted to qualify for Boston. And within six months, I qualified for Boston on this diet. I mean, it just—
Starting point is 00:19:30 Were you changing your training, too, or was that the one variable? I think that allowed me, I think, to run, train a lot harder than I ever had. I had the best training summer of my life, put in more and harder workouts, and noticed that I was able to, you know, didn't get injured because I was always getting injured before this. Right. So, you know, I'm hesitant to always say like, yes, it was exactly the diet that did it. That was the only variable that could have done it. But if, you know, if it, if it wasn't the only thing, then it was one of very few things that, that, uh, did change. And then six months later,
Starting point is 00:20:04 I did it and then got into ultra distances after that the blog kind of you know it just built up a following i guess people really liked the story of going vegetarian and qualifying for boston and especially that it actually worked so yeah then the blog just sort of took off in its own way then and grew into what it is now so was it it was no meat athlete from the beginning that was the blog that you started yeah that was it okay so but that's interesting because So was it, it was No Meat Athlete from the beginning? That was the blog that you started? Yeah, that was it. So it's been that, oh, okay. So, but that's interesting because when you started it,
Starting point is 00:20:29 it was really, I'm documenting this experiment. It wasn't, you weren't being an advocate for anything. You were just saying, I'm going to try this and see what happens. Yeah, and I was really into cooking. So I said, I'm going to share a bunch of recipes and things like that. But I didn't write about running
Starting point is 00:20:42 for the first few months of it because I was just kind of experimenting with the food and writing about that, but yeah, very much an experiment at first. And it took, it took me to qualify for Boston and get into the ultra distances before I started to feel like I had something to actually teach or share to people. Right. I want to go back and read like your first post. Oh, it's awful. Those first ones are just unreadable. So, all right. So you're being very transparent from the beginning. Like I'm trying, and then it's just, and so you qualify for Boston. What year was that?
Starting point is 00:21:13 That was 2009. So it's pretty recent. It's not that long ago. Yeah, not really that long. You're such a internet kingpin. I'm thinking this has been going on for a longer period of time, but it's not that long. No, my internet empire right has formed i know i want to i'm i'm so like in awe and jealous of how you've built this internet thing i'm gonna i'm gonna pick your brain afterwards i'm not gonna
Starting point is 00:21:34 bore the audience i think you'll be disappointed i don't think so you're gonna be disappointed no but what you've what i what i respect so much about what you've done is your transparency and your humility and your willingness to share all of this amazing information and your ability to develop an audience that's interested in what you're doing and create your own kind of little community and movement. Like, you know, I'm sort of doing that after the book,
Starting point is 00:22:04 like you're doing it the right way. And I'm trying to figure out and understand all this internet stuff. So I don't have to go back and be a lawyer, but anyway, you can put me to school. You can give me some assignments after this. Okay. But, uh, all right, cool. So you go to, so what happened when you ran Boston? Well, I took, I took one year. I did not run Boston the next year after I qualified. Because I qualified in fall of 2009. Found out that our son, our first child, was due on the Boston Marathon date of 2010. So I had to kind of postpone this dream.
Starting point is 00:22:35 But you know what? Really, my dream, at some point, the idea of qualifying kind of hijacked the actual dream to run Boston. So it became about qualifying. That was really what I wanted to do. And the race itself was kind of just a reward. And so I did run it in 2011 and didn't run it very fast. I think I ran a three 30 something on,
Starting point is 00:22:55 on the day when a Muay Thai ran the two Oh two marathon, when it was, they said it was too fast, too good of conditions, you know, so everyone had PRS. And that was one thing i wish i could go back and do again was that i treated that race as my reward for qualifying but when i was so you know
Starting point is 00:23:11 i didn't train that hard i took it relaxed took it easy but when i was actually there standing in the starting corral with all these people who were you know in 310 305 marathon shape i was like man this is the best race in the world and like there's so much history here of people racing, not just running this casually. And I was like, I just wish that I was in a condition to actually really race this and run a PR here. So I kind of want to get back there now, which now that they've changed the qualifying standards, I think will take me a run of three hours or maybe 305, but, uh,
Starting point is 00:23:41 it's kind of something I'm shooting for next year. Yeah. Well, good. It's good to have'm shooting for next year. Yeah, well, good. It's good to have unfinished business. It is, yeah, because you get bored otherwise. Keep you motivated. Sure. So at what point do you sort of morph from the guy who's just sort of sharing his journey somewhat privately
Starting point is 00:23:59 and wondering if anyone's reading what's going on into creating this community and becoming more of an advocate? I'd say it really was after Boston. I mean, or after I qualified, I should say, in 2009. So after I'd been blogging for about nine months and built up a following of people who I felt like trusted me. And I don't know, I started to feel like
Starting point is 00:24:21 it wasn't really about me and my journey as much as it was about all these people coming together and celebrating what they were doing. I think people really liked just hearing that there was someone out there who was really interested in the same things they were and someone who was demonstrating in a not-appreciated way that it does work, regardless of how you want to define
Starting point is 00:24:43 how well it works for what we're doing, it was hard to argue with the fact that it worked. And it certainly wasn't hurting my performance because I improved. So I just started to get the sense that there was something more here. So I made some t-shirts and had people wear those. I sold them at the exact same cost that I paid for them. It wasn't trying to make money or anything as much as just build this community. that I paid for them. It wasn't trying to make money or anything as much as just build this community. Since then, I've just sort of let that dictate.
Starting point is 00:25:09 It's been, as we mentioned with the Amazon, it's so wonderful to have an audience who will respond to the things that you would like them to do. More than that, to talk to them and find out what it is that, what sort of resources do they need? What do they want me to write a post about?
Starting point is 00:25:25 What kind of guests do they want on the podcast? So it's really nice to just kind of leave that up to the audience as much as possible and make it about us and not just me. Yeah, like people call me the no-meat athlete, which I totally accept that that's what it's going to be, like what's going to happen. But that was never really my intention, like to be the guy who is that. I just thought I am one of these no-meat athletes, and we all are.
Starting point is 00:25:49 It's about the whole community, not me. Yeah, that's great. And you're also a very accessible guy. And you're just saying, hey, I'm just a guy like you, and I'm doing this stuff, and here's what's working, and here's what's not. What else should we talk about? Yeah, because I know from my own standpoint, when I was interested in becoming vegetarian
Starting point is 00:26:08 and I would be approached at school, because I was in grad school before I started all this blog stuff, I would be approached by people with flyers and they would have pictures of animals being slaughtered on them and all that. And that opened my eyes and made me kind of want to do it and look into it more. But on the other hand, it also kind of turned me off in a way. I just thought to go vegan or go vegetarian
Starting point is 00:26:30 means becoming someone like that, like becoming someone who stands around and hands out flyers. Becomes a political statement. Yeah, an activist. So I didn't really like that, and I think that actually kept me from becoming vegetarian or vegan for a few months or years longer than it would have otherwise. And that's not to say that those people are not doing something great. I mean I think it's fantastic that people are out there doing it.
Starting point is 00:26:55 But I just like to write in a way that would have resonated with me back then. Because I just think kind of being low key about it and saying like, yeah, here I'm, I'm doing this and it's working rather than saying you should do this because this will definitely work for you. And you know, you should feel bad about eating meat. Like as much as I, as much as it was an ethical decision for me, I try not to talk about that too much. Yeah. I think that it's a, it's a bit of a conundrum. Like if you show somebody, I think that it's a bit of a conundrum. Like if you show somebody, there's two kinds of people.
Starting point is 00:27:27 You show somebody the film, you know, like a film like Earthlings, right? It's very graphic about how we treat our animals. And a person is either going to, a light's going to go off in their brain and say, I'm done with me. I can't believe this. I didn't know this. Like, how could I, you know, how could I live this way? Or turn it off. I don't want to know about it. You know, this is, I'm done with me. I can't believe this. I didn't know this. Like, how could I live this way? Or turn it off.
Starting point is 00:27:46 I don't wanna know about it. You know, this is, I don't care. You know, that kind of thing. Like people are pretty much into those two camps. I'd probably fall into the latter camp. You know, like that's how, I didn't get into this for ethical reasons. And I've become much more compassionate
Starting point is 00:28:02 and interested in those issues and much more aware of what's going on. And that's becoming a bigger part of my message. But it certainly wasn't initially. I think everybody has their own journey with that. And you have to create a very comfortable starting place for people where the message is accessible and not intimidating or frightening or off-putting or overtly political or anything like that. And you've done a great job with that. It's like, hey, come and join the team. We're just going out running. You know what I mean? That's what it is, right? Yeah, absolutely. And like you said, there are two groups of people and some people will be reached by the other message. And I mean, in some way I was's, was a big motivator for me from going vegetarian to vegan was actually the film Earthlings. But that, you know, I was only really ready for that because I'd been vegetarian for a few years. You mentioned that for you, it became
Starting point is 00:28:54 more about ethics, more about compassion as you, after you had got involved in it. And that's how it was for me. And I think it's that way for a lot of people. You just sort of, once your eyes are open to it, you start to see what's going on and kind of want to go further with it. Right, right. So what were you studying in grad school? I was studying applied math, which of course comes in so handy for being a blogger.
Starting point is 00:29:17 It probably does. You probably know how to code, don't you? I can look at HTML and sort of understand what's going on. I can't really write it. I can code at HTML and sort of understand what's going on. I can't really write it. I can go to other things. So what was the plan before you became the no-meat athlete? What were you going to be doing? Some sort of financial math job.
Starting point is 00:29:34 My PhD, which I abandoned, was on modeling how stock options moved. It was exciting. I loved it. You would have been so rich. I mean, more rich than I am now, but I think I would have been far less fulfilled. I think, you know, and so I don't know that that was the plan in some way though. Like I just somehow knew I was never actually going to do that. Like as much as that was the official stated plan, in some way, school was kind of a procrastination until I,
Starting point is 00:30:06 or just something to do until I found, you know, what I was really after. And I didn't know what that was. You found it so early though, you know, it's great. I mean, it takes, some people have to go through, you know, the midlife crisis to figure that out, or maybe they never ever do. They just resign themselves to, you know, they feel like they have to pursue a career for financial reasons or whatever. So for you to be able to have the self-awareness to develop that at such a young age, it's pretty cool. Yeah, I mean, for some reason, I never really questioned that. Like I just, even when I was a little kid,
Starting point is 00:30:38 said I'm not going to grow up and do the 9 to 5 job thing. It just never seemed like an option for me because I saw my dad doing it and just thought, he just didn't seem very happy with that. And I couldn't imagine spending that many hours of your day at something that you really didn't like. And I think it's awesome that he did that for our family. I mean, that's fantastic.
Starting point is 00:30:57 But for me, it just kind of never seemed like an option that I would long-term be working for somebody else. It just didn't really interest me. So was there a moment where you realized that you could turn this blogging thing into actually a vocation? Was there like a tipping point moment or did slow evolution? You know, there was really no tipping point and I've thought about that a lot. I always kind of expected that at one certain day, like there would just be avalanches of
Starting point is 00:31:23 traffic because it would have this exponential growth and one day it would tip as the tipping point is about. That never really did happen but it's just been a gradual growth very much the same rate. The growth rate increases obviously as the audience increases
Starting point is 00:31:38 because you can reach more people more quickly. But it really took the courage and confidence to put out a product and say, this is shifting from me experimenting and telling you about what I'm doing to saying, here's how to run your first marathon on a plant-based diet. And that was a scary thing for me to do. Like, it was hard to take that position and, you know, open yourself up to criticism when you're telling people how to do something. Because someone could very easily have
Starting point is 00:32:04 said, well, who are you to tell us how to run a marathon? Good, you qualified for Boston, but you're certainly not in the Olympics or anything. So I had to get over a lot of stuff to do that. But once I did it, then it was pretty clear that this could be, like could support our family. Not right then, but it was clear that if I kept doing this and things like that, then we would reach that point.
Starting point is 00:32:25 So the first product that you put out was the roadmap for the marathon? That was the first like official branded product. I had put out one before that. This kind of goes back to like internet ninja stuff but This is what I want to know about. The audience probably doesn't but I do.
Starting point is 00:32:43 But I had written a post about uh pinole and chia seeds because i'd read about them in born to run oh i think i saw i read that yeah and i was all into cooking so i was so excited to go home and try this stuff and actually make it which i think very few people actually did with pinole because it just seemed like a weird food but i went home and kind of wrote a post about how i made it and how i tried it for runs and that started getting tons and tons of search traffic. I said, well, this blog could certainly use a little kick in the pants
Starting point is 00:33:10 financially that would help me realize that I can do this and support my family one day. I wrote a little e-book. I worked with my sister, who's a great vegan baker. We put together, because the panoli you know as much as it may have worked for the tarahumara it wasn't the most appetizing thing i mean it's just kind of this really smoky corn meal stuff so she and i worked and made a whole bunch of recipes based on that like put it in brownies and whatever all kinds of different foods uh like a smoothie even based on it and all these different things. And just made a little ebook,
Starting point is 00:33:45 a little cheap ebook that I advertised on that post that was already getting all this traffic. Your panoli recipe book. Yeah. So, I mean, that did really well because there were all these people showing up to that site from Google every day. Just for whatever reason,
Starting point is 00:33:58 that ranked really highly in Google. And so I just figured that'd be a good little stepping stone. And it was. It was a good first product to put out. Right, that's cool. So you have a sister who's vegan. She's not. She was.
Starting point is 00:34:09 Oh, she was. She was vegetarian. She worked in a vegan bakery as their baker for a long time. And she's great at it. And she's a great cook, but not vegan. I gotcha. So when does the transition from vegetarian to completely plant-based occur? That was about two years after the initial decision to go vegetarian and start the blog.
Starting point is 00:34:28 Pretty much immediately, I just stopped drinking milk. I just didn't really want it. I kind of learned about some of the ways that milk may be very unhealthy for you. There's certainly a lot of argument from people, whether it is or not, but most people in the plant-based community have read or at least heard about the studies that demonstrate the link to lots of reproductive cancers and things like that. So I cut out milk pretty much immediately, but cheese was something that was still always in the picture, and I would get cheese pizza on weekends when I wanted it.
Starting point is 00:35:00 But over the course of two years, I just gradually phased that stuff out. As I learned more about it, watched Earthlings, just started to feel worse about it. I just gradually phased that stuff out I just as I learned more about it watched earthlings just started to feel worse about it I just gradually got rid of it not with any concerted effort or anything but once I actually tried to go vegan and I kind of tried to force it and said I'm just going to go vegan for a month and see what happens but by the end of that month I realized I was not ready like I just was counting down the days to like eat cheese pizza again so I just let it happen naturally. And then finally got to the point where I said, the only reason I'm not vegan is because I still eat cheese once every two weeks or something.
Starting point is 00:35:34 So all it takes, like as hard as it is to give up cheese, all it really takes is me to actually decide it and say, this is it. And once I did, you know, it wasn't hard at all. Cause it was just the matter of not having cheese once every two weeks, but it took actually making that decision because without it, I would have just kind of kept going on that path. Right.
Starting point is 00:35:51 So about two years. Cheese was hard for me. Yeah, I mean, that's what everyone who I talk to who's vegetarian but wants to go vegan is stuck on cheese. They think it just seems like... It's in everything, and it tastes really good, and it's also the thing it tastes really good and uh
Starting point is 00:36:05 it's also the thing that that i noticed when i cut it out finally that made the biggest difference in how i felt like i didn't feel that different not eating meat and i didn't it wasn't that hard actually i didn't crave it tremendously but cheese i had a really powerful craving for and it it was like i just suffered through a couple weeks to kind of get to the other side of that but the the difference in my energy levels and how i felt and how my body would perform athletically was pretty pretty dramatic yeah i tend to believe that from my experience and and many others that dairy is probably more of a harmful food than meat is certainly certainly a more unnatural one like even if you look at the paleo types, the ones who are purely paleo, they don't...
Starting point is 00:36:49 They're not eating dairy. Right, not very much. So we agree there. And we also agree on that eating whole foods is really good. People who are doing paleo right, they're not getting hamburgers at McDonald's or frying bacon that they get at the grocery store. Not to say that we have a lot in common
Starting point is 00:37:04 because there's certainly the huge ethical divide. But I think, you know, I tend to look at paleo and vegan, the healthy version of vegan and the healthy version of paleo is not really all that different. It's trading the meat for the grains and the beans maybe, but that's maybe only 20% of the diet or so. Yeah. I just did a, I did a podcast interview with Abel James, who has a podcast called the fat burning man. I've never heard of it. Andel James, who has a podcast called The Fat-Burning Man. Have you ever heard of it? And he's pretty out there on the internet doing lots of stuff. And we had a nice chat, and he said,
Starting point is 00:37:34 yeah, if you were to put up a Venn diagram, like the overlap between paleo and vegan, they're almost concentric circles on top of each other. Of course, there's the meat and the grass-fed and all that kind of stuff, so we're going to differ on that. But there's more commonality, I think, than people realize, and there's a lot of energy behind kind of putting these two camps in a ring and letting them duke it out and fight to the death.
Starting point is 00:38:02 And I'm sure you experience a lot of that angst on the internet or people that want you to engage on that. And I do as well. And it's a weird thing that I still have trouble like kind of wrapping my brain around how to approach. You know what I mean? Like I wanna create like with this podcast and with my site, like a site that anybody can come to and feel like,
Starting point is 00:38:26 hey, I want to experiment with eating more plants and it's cool and we don't have to put labels on this and divide ourselves into camps and get into some war about X, Y, and Z. But then I'm like, well, I have this issue with paleo and that issue with paleo, but is it worth me highlighting that and then sort of losing the forest for the trees?
Starting point is 00:38:44 And you wrote a really interesting article for the Huffington Post recently on this very subject. So tell us a little bit about where you're coming down on this. Yeah. I mean, where I come down on it is that people ask questions like, well, how come these two diets that are polar opposites are getting popular at the same time? Like which one is right and which one is wrong? And my answer is always that if you look at 95, maybe 99% of people who aren't paleo or vegan, like, they're eating fast food all the time.
Starting point is 00:39:16 And Doritos and just, like, mostly total junk. And I'm not criticizing because I did that exact thing. And I even thought it was healthy. Like, I would eat, like I said, the chicken breast and the brown rice and between I'd have potato chips or whatever and I thought I was doing okay not even thinking about vegetables but I think what's happening like if that if you look at it as a spectrum of who's eating whole foods and who's not I mean it's everybody else way and then way way on the side of the paleos and the vegans kind of off on their own little section of it.
Starting point is 00:39:45 So I tend to think we're really, really similar. And like I said, the ethical divide is enormous. But even when you talk about that stuff, paleos, they do want the type of food that they think is nutritious. I mean, as far as beef and meat goes, is generally the more sustainably raised right type so even if as a vegan you think it's wrong to eat meat you know there's also the argument that they are doing better than others who are eating yeah so absolutely absolutely so i i tend to incur like if a friend tells me yeah we just started eating paleo like i don, like you said, it's hard to know what to say. Like, I don't want to say,
Starting point is 00:40:27 well, you should try being vegan too. Like, just try it without the meat. Right. But at the same time, I'm like really happy that they are coming off of the processed food diet and doing one that is not, because they're probably not going to eat more meat as a result of going paleo.
Starting point is 00:40:40 It's probably the same or maybe even less if they're doing it truly. Yeah, there's, well, excuse excuse me i have something in my throat there's a there's a there's a dividing line between true paleo and maybe there's disagreements about what true paleo is but there's a also a very strong perversion of paleo out there right now which is this huge emphasis on which you know starts to border on atkins where it's this super low carb approach, and it's all about eating bacon, and it's very meat focused. And I don't think that's true paleo at all, but there's this perception that that is paleo. And so there's a lot of people walking
Starting point is 00:41:17 around thinking they're eating a paleo diet when they're eating tons of bacon for breakfast every day, and they refuse to eat any fruit whatsoever, all this kind of thing. So what is it that we're talking about? I think we have to define the parameters of the paleo that we're talking about. Sure, and it's tough because even if you're eliminating that kind of marketing paleo, the one that does promote the bacon and all the Ackensipe food, even once you eliminate that, there's not really a consensus on what paleo is. There's so much argument.
Starting point is 00:41:49 And that's one of the big criticisms, of course, is that people will point out that even the fruit that we eat now or the potatoes we eat now or whatever are much different than they were back then, of course. And then geographically, all different people ate different things and some apparently even ate grains and beans. and right you were going to eat what was readily accessible to you right and that depended on where you lived but i think in general unless you were in inuit that you know you're going to be eating a lot more plant-based foods because they're easy
Starting point is 00:42:17 to find and they're in your environment as opposed to stalking an animal for several days and then killing it and then eating an animal which is going to be way more lean than any animals that are around today. Yeah, I've heard it said that a better word or better term than hunter-gatherer would be gatherer-hunter, because we probably gathered first most of the time, and then when the tribe got some sort of big kill, there would be meat that day or for for a few days and right it was a special thing yeah treated very differently yeah i think that's accurate gatherer hunter but you know that's not sexy hunting is sexy and hunting is masculine and we can all pretend like we're yeah so there's there's gender uh there's gender identity issues that get pulled into it and what does it mean to be a man and be masculine and uh paleo you know from a marketing perspective has been very effective at tapping into kind of
Starting point is 00:43:10 the primal male instinct and this this whole kind of hunter thing which uh you know and then there's debate about what just like you said like well what what were we doing exactly and i i don't know that there's true consensus on on anthropology of the era, the time. No, I mean, of course not. There was a TED talk or maybe a TEDx talk recently that came up and just kind of... It was a woman, right? Yeah. I don't remember her name.
Starting point is 00:43:36 But the paleo people are all pissed off about that. And then there's all these other things and debunking what she's saying. And you can go around the merry-go-round forever. And you can go on the internet and you can find support for whatever point of view you are. And paleo isn't the only thing that gets perverted. I mean, the vegan diet isn't inherently healthy. There's plenty of variations on that. And just like what we were talking about before, all the junk food, vegan food that you can get now. So you can be unhealthy on a vegan diet. There's a difference between a vegan diet and a whole food plant-based diet, I guess.
Starting point is 00:44:07 Yep, absolutely. Just like there's a difference between a paleo diet and a whole food one. And I think, you know, just because that's kind of where I'm coming from is with the accepting and welcoming thing that I tend not, I don't want to get into that fight and I don't like being-
Starting point is 00:44:23 But you're the one who wrote an article on the Huffington Post about it, and you took a very gracious, neutral, welcoming position, and you still got slammed in some of the comments. Oh, of course. It's the Huffington Post. So you can't win this. No, absolutely not. Yeah.
Starting point is 00:44:43 But I like how you you know you root everything that you do in your own personal experience you know and that's
Starting point is 00:44:50 you know that's very different from preaching or saying you should or shouldn't do this just like hey this is what I'm doing
Starting point is 00:44:55 like this is working for me you want to come on board like hey let's walk this path together and see what happens I don't know where it's going right yeah that's it
Starting point is 00:45:03 and I you know I'll try to give tools to help people do it so So it's like, if you, if you want to make the change, here are some ways that I think you can do it successfully. Uh, but as far as like influencing, the only thing I'll try to be as an example, I don't want to be, uh, at all telling someone they should do this. Like I can, I can point to different research and say, here's some research that says that a vegan diet is in the long term really healthy.
Starting point is 00:45:28 And then I'll say, and here's some research that doesn't agree with that. So just kind of showing both sides and then pick the one that resonates with you and that seems right to you. And what I hope I can be is just someone who is an example to the everyday person, the person like me who isn't an elite athlete
Starting point is 00:45:49 but has aspirations of doing, or just has some part of them that's kind of whispering that they can do something special. And for me, that special was qualifying for the Boston Marathon and then the 100-mile. It was also a huge, big thing for me. was qualifying for the Boston Marathon and then the 100 mile. It was also a huge, big thing for me.
Starting point is 00:46:05 But I'm not trying to be an example of athletic performance. I'm trying to be an example of someone who, a very average, normal guy who is doing some pretty cool things for my body and for where I'm coming from and doing them on a plant-based diet. That's what I want to be.
Starting point is 00:46:25 I'm not trying to... No, you're saying if you're interested in this, like I've been doing this for a couple years and I'm happy to try to help you. Absolutely. As opposed to you need to come over here and here's why. Right. Those are two very different messages.
Starting point is 00:46:40 They are, and they reach different people. So what led to the 100 miler? I just, after the 50 or the fifties, uh, I had read born to run and a hundred just seemed like, well, let's back up. When did you do your first 50? I did my first 50 about six, uh, let's see, 2000, June, 2010, North face in DC. And,. And didn't find it terribly difficult. I mean, going from marathon training to that wasn't a huge jump, just because you slow down so much, of course. So I did that, and then three months later I did the Vermont 50.
Starting point is 00:47:15 Kind of burnt out a little bit on ultra running after that, doing two of those in three months. Yeah, that's a lot. It was, especially for someone who hadn't done it. I have a friend who ran a few years in a row i think he ran western states and badwater wow and and he routinely does his name is david pasconka by the way and he uh he actually placed in the top 10 at badwater a couple years ago but he you know he does like 100 miler every two weeks it seems like throughout the summer and it's just amazing to me that someone can do that but yeah for me
Starting point is 00:47:42 then 250 milers in three months was, was a ton. And, uh, just, I took like a break, a two year break or so from going after really serious running goals. But I felt like this hundred was kind of this monkey on my back. And I had, I had even signed up for one after Vermont and thought, I'm just going to do it now. Like I'm in shape to do this now. Now's the time to train and ramp up. And really never even went for a single run in preparation for that race. I signed up and announced on my blog I was going to do this race and just couldn't get myself. It was just an overwhelming distance to me.
Starting point is 00:48:15 It felt impossible to me, and that's why it was so inspiring. But I think at that point it was so big a goal that it was like, I couldn't even get started on it. So I took some time off, actually read your book and Scott Jurek's book within about a week of each other. And after that said, I'm going to get this hundred done. And that was, I guess back in June, 2012 or so. I don't know exactly when your book come out.
Starting point is 00:48:37 When did your book come out? May 2012. I think Scott's book came out maybe, I don't know. It was essentially the same time. Right. So I read that and said, I'm going to get this done. And I guess it was only about a year and two or three months later, I did. I used Brian Powell's plan from irunfar.com.
Starting point is 00:48:57 It's called Relentless Forward Progress, the book. I'm sure you've heard of it. And yeah, I maxed out at 55 or 60 miles per week so not all that much training but did a 12-hour race as like my big pre-race uh did it 50k before that and right it was reasonable and i i really have felt like this diet has allowed me to not get injured because i just you know that would have been unthinkable for me to do those kind of distances 50k 50 mile and 100 within two months or so and treating those other two runs as training runs. I mean, instead of races, that was a, that's a huge step to get to there. So yeah, I'm a much different runner than I was
Starting point is 00:49:32 back in those Boston qualifying days. And, uh, it's hard to say, but I think a lot of it has to do with the diet and I don't know, it's just been, it's been a fun, like it was a really fun, enjoyable few months training for that because I got to just go slow, not worry about speed work, put on some headphones, listen to podcasts and audio books and things. And I really enjoyed it. It was a great experience. And actually getting it done was incredible. It's a different kind of training when you kind of, you just let go of this idea of speed altogether. And then you're in this aerobic, like perpetual aerobic state when you're training which once you kind of acclimate to that becomes almost like this soothing kind of active meditation
Starting point is 00:50:11 and you start to look forward to it like as long as you're not over training where you're getting overly fatigued it actually becomes really enjoyable yep and that was something really i mean i said that your book was a big part of the inspiration to do that but the also the how-to kind of i read how you had for i don't know if it was several weeks several months did not let your heart rate get over the 70 or whatever that threshold was so i felt like that was kind of someone telling me it was okay to train that way for a long time and then maybe at some point shift into speed training but never really got around to that i just kind of we don't really need it
Starting point is 00:50:50 for a hundred miler you know it's not no i mean if you're not trying to win it right it's like what i said in the yeah exactly you know it's like what i said in my book which is the prize which my coach told me i don't i didn't come up with this but the prize doesn't go to the fastest guy it's to the guy that that slows down the least, you know? So if you can just, you know, like, listen, if you could run a hundred miles at like eight 30 pace without slowing down, you're killing it. You know what I mean? So it's like, we're not talking about running fast here. And I had this, you know, I went and crewed for, we were just talking about this before the pack podcast. I was, uh, one of the crew guys for Dean Karnazes at Badwater.
Starting point is 00:51:26 And I get people email me questions or ask me on social media, like, well, what kind of pace was he running and how fast was he going? And I was like, you don't understand. Like, this is like a March, you know what I mean? More than a run. Like, yeah, there's running, but there's a lot of stopping. There's a lot of walking. And there's a lot of changing your shoes and, and, uh, pace, you know, just the idea of pace is like, right. You just get thrown out the window. Yeah. Yeah. Very different experience for sure. It was mine actually took me 28 hours and people were like,
Starting point is 00:51:55 well, what's the pace. And when I tell them it's like 17 something per mile, right. All of a sudden the accomplishment, like they're not impressed anymore like i could probably do that for like 50 and then maybe i could do it for 100 uh yeah and so i don't know but in the training for a 50 you know again unless you're trying to win i mean the training for a 50 and the training for 100 aren't that different i mean because your body can only take that much volume until you get to an elite level so then it just becomes a mental thing of preparing yourself to kind of just be out there for that long it seems like and i don't know if this is because ultra running is kind of still a really niche sport and maybe very unexplored still and how the best ways to train is
Starting point is 00:52:33 or best ways to train are but it almost seems like the best way to train for 100 is to train for a 50 and then a month later run 100 right and just kind of fool around in between then like don't hurt yourself and don't do too much well there's a lot of guys that just their big training their big runs their big training runs are the races and then in between them they just do normal running kind of training yep you know so there definitely happens a lot with ultra running um and i i share an office with a buddy of mine greg smith and uh he's gotten into ultra running and he's kind of on the 80, 10, 10 diet. He's probably more vegetables and greens than like a strict fruitarian approach. But for the most part, like he's very high carb, low fat, vegan diet. And he goes out and runs every morning,
Starting point is 00:53:18 but nothing crazy. And he's done, he just did his third hundred miler, you know? And I'm like, dude, how do you do that without a training really that much? You know, and he just, he just loves it, you know, goes out there and gets through it somehow. So yeah, it's a different, uh, it's, it's different mentally. It's a completely different approach, but it's cool that you did that. And, uh, and so now, so you've done two fifties and a hundred. Yeah. And a 12 hour race. That was my training run for the 100s. That was slightly more than 50, so about three 50s. Right.
Starting point is 00:53:50 Cool. And let's talk about the book, man. Sure. Yeah. So the book comes out October 1st. Comes out October 1st. I want to talk about what motivated you to write the book first before we get into what's in it.
Starting point is 00:54:04 Yeah, a lot of people have asked me that, and I don't always have a great answer for it. Part of it was that I felt like the audience size of No Meat Athlete was at the point where, you know, the audience could support a book as we talked about. And they have helped it reach higher levels than I expected for a pre-order period, of course. than I expected for a pre-order period, of course. You see so many authors who write a book and I think that that's going to be their life-changing thing and that's like, finally my message is going to be heard. And then don't do anything to promote it and kind of expect the publisher to just do the work and get it done.
Starting point is 00:54:38 Or don't really have a platform to promote it. So I just didn't want to do it before then. I didn't want to do it and write it and put all this energy into it and then have nobody really care or notice that I had done this. So that was part of it. I also, it's kind of like what we said that that progression from just doing an experiment and sharing what I'm learning and being as transparent as I can about that to trying to become someone who is a teacher and stepping into that role, which is a scary thing to do. And I just felt like after four years of blogging
Starting point is 00:55:12 and doing that to an increasing degree, being a teaching type of person, I finally felt like I was comfortable enough to write 250 pages or so purely of that, rather than saying, here's what I ate for breakfast today, or here's what I ate for dinner today. That wouldn't make a very good book. Right, but on the self-publishing front,
Starting point is 00:55:32 you'd put out a number of digital products. You have your roadmap series where you're preparing for a marathon, a half marathon, and then more recently you put out the triathlon one, and you have recipe books. How many total digital products had you put out before this book? I think four, four. And then I have a, like a Boston qualifying training site that I do with another guy, Jason Fitzgerald from a strength running.com. So yeah, I mean,
Starting point is 00:55:58 I just, I don't know. It felt like it was time to take this message to hopefully to people who, who have not found the blog. That's one of the great things about working with a publisher and having your book actually in Barnes & Noble is that you reach people who maybe are just barely interested in this thing. Not even interested enough to Google it, maybe.
Starting point is 00:56:18 But they will see a book on the shelf that has a title that seems like something that's interesting to them. And a book, of course, is an excuse to get media coverage. An excuse to go on a book tour the shelf that has a title that seems like something that's interesting to them. And, you know, a book of course is an excuse to get media coverage, excuse to go on a book tour and hang out with, with fans of the site. I mean, that's, that's so much what it is more than like, you know, like, I don't know that it's going to have any sort of positive financial return, me going around the country and staying in hotels every night. But, but it was like, That's why publishers don't let, don't do book tours for, you know, you go, I mean, look, I did plenty of things where I showed up at Barnes and Nobles for this or that and like three people come.
Starting point is 00:56:52 And then I'm like, well, I wouldn't come. I don't go to bookstore events, you know, so. Yeah, and I fully expect that that will happen, you know, from time to time there will be just sort of these dud events. But what I'm hoping, and that was a big thing, is I've tried to make sure that all these events involved runs or like going out to a cool restaurant or whatever, just things that aren't people standing around and then having me sign books. I didn't want it to be that. And I just felt like it was almost an excuse
Starting point is 00:57:18 to go around the country and an excuse to have a PR person at the publisher email radio stations and magazines in those areas. So that, and really not so much that like, I don't know, just from my experience, that sort of thing doesn't have ever a huge impact on traffic to the site or anything like that. Like doing offline promotions, to me, they very rarely seem to have a big return online. But I think they reach so many people that like, just who have their TV or radio on or leaving through a magazine who otherwise wouldn't have
Starting point is 00:57:50 cared a bit about what you're doing. So I think, you know, giving them this, getting this very, very low pressure plant-based message to them is something that is, you know, that's really like the goal of this book to me. I want it to do that. And if it does that, then I'll have considered it a success. Right. I mean, what I like is that you're not waiting for somebody to do any of this stuff for you. And you really like taking the reins and you have control over kind of how your message is getting out there. And you realize that you have to do it yourself.
Starting point is 00:58:19 And I think there's a lot of people who are under the impression, we were talking about this a little bit beforehand, you know, they write a book and they think like miraculously, you know, like they've, they've never been on Twitter before. And they're like, oh, well, I guess I need to get on Twitter now because I have a book coming out. But they, you know, so they're trying to like build an audience or create interest in what they're doing, but it's all backwards. It's like, you know, you took the time to really develop a loyal community and then came out with the book after you have those, that is already a healthy, active, you know, prospering community, which is the right way to do it. And you're not relying on some publicist to like sell your book for you or to do all this
Starting point is 00:58:56 kind of stuff. You're going on, you booked your own speaking tour all on your own. You decide you're going to go to, how many cities are you going to go to? 40. Oh my God, 40 cities on your own just to go like meet people. And I think what I've noticed in doing a lot of this stuff and making a lot of mistakes when my book came out was, you know, you do some radio thing and you think that that's going to suddenly, that's going to make people buy your book. And it's not a direct translation kind of thing, but what you are doing is just sort of contributing to the public
Starting point is 00:59:28 consciousness, whether they buy your book or not, it's an opportunity to talk to people about something and whether they disagree or, or agree, or it's just sort of, they're, they're listening to it passively in the car and not really paying attention. You're just planting a little seed of like, Hey, I'm doing this thing over here. It might be a little bit different than what you might've thought it might interest you. Maybe it doesn't, but they're kind of like, Oh, well then, you know, a year from now they're like, Oh yeah, I remember that guy or heard about that or whatever. And so you're just sort of fertilizing out there, you know? And there's no way around just showing up in person and running with people and doing that kind of thing. So I love that. You know, like I, I didn't have the ability to go on a 40 city, like leave my family or take my
Starting point is 01:00:09 family with me. And there's no way I could have done that. I did the best that I could, but I love the fact that you're, you're doing that and you're taking responsibility for the direction of how your message is getting out there. Yeah. There's, there's a guy who writes a lot of, like, he used to write a lot of marketing books. His name is Seth Godin. I don't know if you've heard of him. Of course. He's big in the online space, yeah. But I talk to people in the offline world and they're like, who's that?
Starting point is 01:00:30 And they just have no clue. But he has this concept called, he calls it pick yourself. And the idea is that instead of waiting to be picked by the gatekeepers, the publishers, the record producers, whatever industry you're in, instead of waiting for someone to pick you
Starting point is 01:00:45 and the rewards to actually being picked are becoming less and less as the independent thing is growing so much. So instead of that, take the reins and pick yourself. Just start putting your message out there and letting the audience decide if it's any good rather than one guy at the publishing company making that decision.
Starting point is 01:01:04 So it's still a struggle for me. It's so deeply ingrained in our consciousness that you get picked and then all the rewards come to you. And now that's going away. It's easier to pick yourself and the rewards to getting picked aren't as great. So it's kind of like do it yourself. And then what's interesting is that once you finally do pick yourself
Starting point is 01:01:24 and put yourself out there, that's when you actually then do someone finds you and you do it yourself. And then what's interesting is that once you finally do pick yourself and put yourself out there, that's when you actually then do someone finds you and you do get picked. Right, that's the great irony. And I was being an entertainment lawyer in Hollywood for a number of years. I have clients that I had. I'm not practicing anymore,
Starting point is 01:01:39 but writing clients, directing clients, producing clients, everybody's trying to get their movie made or their TV show sold or what have you. And there's this gatekeeper thing, like, you know, you've got to sell your script to Disney or whatever it is, and then you'll, you will have made it, you know, and you're seeing that change with the way that technology has impacted that business where people are now able to make their own projects. And the idea of getting, people are now able to make their own projects and the idea of getting you know the the sort of prize of getting your movie in a movie theater isn't as great as it used to be and maybe you can just you know do your online release or your dvd release and just focus on what you can control
Starting point is 01:02:16 and focus on making a quality product as opposed to trying to please the powers of that be of letting you you know giving you the keys to the kingdom because the kingdom ain't all what it cracked, it's cracked up to be anymore. You know what I mean? And, you know, I go to, I got into town last night and my parents took me straight to politics and prose, which is a really nice bookstore here in DC to go to a reading. A friend of theirs has a book that just came out. And of course, like every time I go into a bookstore, I'm like, Oh, I wonder if they have my book. It's the politics and prose. They probably don't, of course, like every time I go into a bookstore, I'm like, oh, I wonder if they have my book. It's the politics and prose. They probably don't, you know,
Starting point is 01:02:47 like it's just like a political, you know, a lot of political and history books. They had one copy, you know, one paper book copy stuck way in the corner. It's like, I don't know that having my book in a bookstore is really all that important or impactful. You know what I mean? It's sort of good for your ego, but like that's-
Starting point is 01:03:03 Yeah, it's good. It's cool. It makes me feel good that like, oh, this really cool bookstore is carrying my book, but you know,
Starting point is 01:03:09 they have one paperback copy that, you know. Right. But like you said, it's about having that happening in thousands of bookstores and someone glancing at it
Starting point is 01:03:18 and picking it up and maybe not buying it, but then, then they'll see my book and buy mine instead because you can't see. Exactly. They're like,
Starting point is 01:03:24 I'm tired of that guy. I want this new guy. He's going to give me the answer. Right. Until they find out that I didn't really, you know, that I'm not doing it. Oh, come on. I don't know.
Starting point is 01:03:34 Maybe I'm being honest. Don't sell your, yeah, you are. Come on, man. Listen to Seth Godin. That's right. He's speaking to you, right? He is. The Icarus effect.
Starting point is 01:03:43 Yeah. That's great. Yeah. And he's a guy who has a massive following and then decided that he wasn't going to publish um that he was going to self start self-publishing his books and i'm you know he's been rewarded a billion fold for that no doubt oh yeah he's i mean he's he's so well respected in in the community and people who do what we do you know he's just like the guy so tell me about so what's in the book it and people who do what we do. He's just like the guy. So what's in the book?
Starting point is 01:04:10 It's divided into two big sections because I had this kind of conundrum at the beginning and I didn't know, did I want to write this for the person who was already vegan or vegetarian and wanted to learn how to become a really good example that being vegan doesn't necessarily make you weak, like the person who wants to get into running? Or is it for the person who is an athlete and is maybe just the slightest bit curious
Starting point is 01:04:31 about how do you do this with a plant-based diet? It's kind of giving them a guidebook to say here's how you can do it. So I really had to write it for both of those people, which was a scary thing to do because you're really always supposed to pick one person that you're writing to. So I didn't, wasn't able to do that. I had to write it to several people, which is a bit of a risk, but I think it turned out really well. And, uh, it's, so it's like, it's really a guidebook to
Starting point is 01:04:56 a plant-based diet. There's stuff in there that's kind of like, here's how to make the transition. And here's why it's something worth considering. Like here are the, really the benefits that I've noticed and that many others who I've talked to have as well and what the science says and all that kind of stuff. And then there's more advanced stuff. I worked with Matt Russigno who is a vegan registered dietitian and himself. He's a, he's done I think several,
Starting point is 01:05:17 a few Ironmans or Iron Distance triathlons and the Furnace Creek 508, I think it is. It's like put on by the Badwater people, but it's a 500-mile bike race. He's great. He's cool. Yeah, so I worked with him so that he could... I mean, as much as I feel like I've learned about nutrition and this diet in four or five years of doing it and paying a lot of attention to it and reading as much as I can about it,
Starting point is 01:05:40 I still don't have the letters behind my name that are a signal to people that I do know what I'm talking about. So I wanted to work with someone who I really agree with, who shared my philosophy with food, but who had a little bit more of a scientific background in it. And that's, he helped me in, I mean, throughout the book, but one chapter was really like all his, and he goes pretty deep into the nutrition there. So, you know, in that way, it's for people who are already vegan and want to do a better job of, of choosing foods that will, will help them with their sports. But then the other section is how do you get started with running? And I, I'm a runner. So
Starting point is 01:06:13 that's kind of the topic that I wanted to write about. I try it because it's called no meat athlete. I felt like it should at least be applicable to other sports. So I tried to keep the advice sort of general, but obviously there's some stuff that's running form related that's specifically for running. And then a few training plans, like how to get a first 5K or 10K finished, two half marathon plans, and just a whole lot about the three or four keys to running form
Starting point is 01:06:40 that I think are really all you need to worry about. And there's even a habit change component, like how do you get started running, but do it in a way that you're not going to get burnout after three or four weeks. Similarly with diet, how do you transition to the diet without burning yourself out? Like there are different ways and different approaches to that. But another good thing was that I worked a lot of people.
Starting point is 01:06:59 I had a lot of just friends from the internet world and authors contributed little sections. like leo babalta from zen habits right it was just total expert in habit change from all the research he's done he contributed a few little sections about the habit change component so again it was that sort of we mentality versus just me and it was just really fun to bring in lots of experts and then readers as well and to share their little inspiring stories and and there are recipes of course and you know everything you would expect in like a guidebook to this lifestyle yeah that's great um leo is amazing he is yeah i don't know how he does it all he i think he has like uh six kids six kids
Starting point is 01:07:36 yeah well i think one's in college right or maybe two right once away but uh he just started um this new site called unschoolery have you you checked that out? I have them. I'm in love with it. Yeah. It's great. I mean, because we're unschooling our kids and, and that's been a huge like resource and,
Starting point is 01:07:52 and like sort of source of just making me feel better about making that decision. Cause it's kind of a scary thing. And the fact that he launched it with his reputation and kind of what he's done, it's just, it's been a really cool thing for my wife and I. He is also a vegan runner.
Starting point is 01:08:06 He launched a site called Seven Day Vegan that was about, and you contributed something to it, I think. Right, yeah. That was about helping people take a little vegan challenge for seven days. So, I mean, he puts so much good out there into the world. It's just, it's amazing. He's a great guy. It's cool.
Starting point is 01:08:21 So full comprehensive guidebook. What interests me beyond the sort of ABCs of like, here's how you eat and here's your recipes and here's good running form is the psychology aspect of it. Because honestly, and this is something I've learned from kind of going to these veg fests and speaking at a lot of these and I'll see some of the same people that I saw the year prior and they're like, yeah, I'm here, you know, I'm coming to see Dr. Greger again or, you know, whatever. And they're still not looking so healthy, you know, and it's sort of like they're having, they understand
Starting point is 01:08:54 intellectually, uh, what they need to do to change their life or their eating habits or their lifestyle habits, but they struggle with incorporating them or making them stick, you know, and it, it's not about the information or self-knowledge. It's about the ability to, like you said, change the habit or translate the information into action that is sustainable. So what do you think? Like, I'd like to hear more about kind of your approach to that. Yeah. Well, I mean, first of all, I'm like a total nerd for the self-help genre and the Tony Robbins type stuff. Like that's actually one,
Starting point is 01:09:30 like that was the spark for me that made me decide to go vegetarian and then start the blog was I went to a Tony Robbins seminar. Oh, really? Did you walk on the coals? Walked across the coals. You did?
Starting point is 01:09:38 Yep, did all that. Fought in totally to it and loved it. Like I think there's so much good stuff to, it's not for everybody for sure. Well, it works because look at you. Maybe you wouldn't have started No Meat Athlete, right? I don't think I would have. Like I said, I was in grad school, and I wanted to start a business, but I just wasn't ever
Starting point is 01:09:54 ready to do it and always found a reason to just wait. But yeah, so that was the spark for it. But anyway, to answer your question, and that sort of underlies it because I have a little goal-setting workshop in there that was like my little Tony Robbins section. But I hope people like it. I like it. I love that kind of stuff. But anyway, the habit change, what I'm learning, there's a great book called The Power of Habit by Charles Duhigg. That's really a good kind of comprehensive introduction to habit change.
Starting point is 01:10:26 And it seems that, I mean, there are a lot of factors that go into it. The big ones are starting small and like to take the example of fitness, starting out an exercise program, it's so easy to get, you know, to get excited, get inspired. And that's, that's what it takes for a lot of people is to actually get really inspired to, to want to make a change. And then once you, once you've made that decision to be so excited about it, that you're going to go to the gym for an hour a day or, you know, an hour every other day and people get in the gym and just like totally burn themselves out so that not only are they physically sore and maybe even unable to go back to the gym, but their willpower, their willpower is depleted.
Starting point is 01:11:07 And that's something that's written about a lot now is that willpower is a lot like a muscle. Like it gets tired and you actually run out of it and it needs to rebuild. It can get stronger by practicing it and increasing it in increments, just like lifting weights. So what you really need to do, I think, is work on building up that willpower first and creating the habit. So like something I learned from Leo is he says, if you want to start running, don't get out the door and try to run for half an hour the first day. Go out and try to run for five minutes. And if you find yourself procrastinating on five minutes, then make it two minutes.
Starting point is 01:11:40 So that's all you have to do. Or get outside with your shoes on and shut the door. And then if you decide to go a little bit of running fine but if not count that as a success that you did it and get yourself in the habit of doing that over and over and granted physical changes will be none in that first few weeks while you're developing that habit but if you can go for a few weeks of five or ten minutes of running just very gradually increasing your willpower you know you get used to it and it becomes a habit that's ingrained in your head. And there's all kinds of things like following it immediately
Starting point is 01:12:08 after a trigger. Like if you want to, let's say you want to write every day for some reason. If you drink coffee, you could make that cup of coffee. As soon as you take the first sip, that's your trigger and you immediately follow it with the habit. And the brain starts to link that up. And of course it doesn't have to be coffee. It could be any activity that you do. And then there's the reward aspect to it. Once your habits done, is there something that's rewarding about either the feeling of having done it or some external reward that you let yourself have a piece of chocolate or whatever. So there's that habit loop, like the trigger, the action and the reward, which is also really important. Yeah. I like that. That's great. I mean, I think that what I see is,
Starting point is 01:12:44 you know, people will come to me, they've never run before. And they're like, well, which Garmin should I get? Which heart rate monitor? And like, should I be, how often should it be, you know, threshold training? And which days do I do hill repeats? And I'm like, I look through, when I see through that is just creating a lot of noise and barriers that are actually preventing you from just going out and beginning, you know, it's like, just go outside and run for 10 minutes, you know, like, don't worry about that. That stuff will sort itself out later, but yeah, create the habit, you know, and the sustainability of it comes with the momentum that occurs with the habit becoming more and more ingrained in your daily patterns right yep and it gets to the point where you know once it truly is a habit then it doesn't take any willpower it's just something that you do yeah you automatically do it like in some way you crave it like there are there are these intrinsic rewards to running as you mentioned
Starting point is 01:13:38 before when you start to feel this sort of meditative or relaxing feeling from running i mean it feels good to actually move, especially if you're not moving too fast. It transcends reflective into something that you actually look forward to, as opposed to dread. And there's the exact parallels with diet. I mean, at first, going from a full processed food,
Starting point is 01:14:02 fast food diet to the way we eat, like, I mean, whole foods, lots and lots of greens, lots of raw vegetables, raw food. I mean, that's not terribly appealing to someone who's coming off of that fast food diet, but as it becomes a habit and you become used to it and your taste buds change and everything else changes, you start, I mean, I feel like I like that food now better than I ever liked fast food. It just, it just is so, I don't know, it's just so nourishing and delicious and you just feel great after it. So yeah, it takes time, but it does become a habit and, and you start to have, there's this intrinsic reward that you start to feel, but it takes a while to get there.
Starting point is 01:14:50 I feel like the other barrier is this idea of perfection or projecting like perfection either upon yourself or a certain ideal and whether that's diet like if you say I'm a vegan and then you know I'm gonna be a vegan I'm gonna do this vegan thing and then you go two weeks and you have a cheese pizza you know and you're like're like, well, that was too hard. So much, so much for that. You know what I mean? And it's like, yeah, instead of just, all right, well, what was the, you know, what is the habit you're trying to form while I'm trying to have more plants in my diet, you know, like shift your perspective and look at it from a different perspective so that you're not setting yourself up to fail. Or if I'm going to be a runner, I'm going to run every day. And then you miss a day, you know, and you say, well, I couldn't do it. And then you think you failed when actually you
Starting point is 01:15:29 did something good. Look at all those days that you ran. Like, what are you going to do next? Let's focus on today. And right now that perfection mindset certainly has that, like you get a streak going. Like if it's like you said, I'm going to be vegan. And then for some, there's something about that, that as soon as you fail at that, you're done. That is the end of your attempt at being vegan. Right, it's over with. And you're a bad person because you couldn't do it. You let yourself down.
Starting point is 01:15:55 And obviously you don't follow through on your commitments. For me, the way I'm wired, I'll go into a shame spiral if I start thinking that way. Yeah, and the alternative, like you said, it's hard to fail in a single day at eating more plants. I mean, you might not eat more plants that day, but there's no all of a sudden epic catastrophic failure when now you have to stop because you failed.
Starting point is 01:16:18 You can just get back on and keep going. And I think it's the little things. It's creating habits around the little things. Like I say to people all the time, if they're eating the processed diet or they're junk food junkies or whatever, it's just like, hey, you know what? When you get up in the morning,
Starting point is 01:16:33 just start your day with a green smoothie. Like if you just make that one change, forget about everything else. You wanna go to Jack in the Box for dinner, fine, whatever. But just start your day with some kale and some fruit and something fresh and healthy and just do that and don't worry about anything else right now just pay attention to how you feel yeah and for some people like you know a year later that could have been the start to you know they could
Starting point is 01:16:57 be then the crazy raw total raw vegan yeah who knows right and you have to have you have to respect those people and say they're on their own. It's not up to me what that journey is going to be for them. Just empower them with a couple, you know, little things and see where they take that because it's incumbent upon them, obviously, eventually to make that decision for themselves. Yeah. So I have nothing more to say. You don't, are we done about that? No, I mean that, you know, that's like, you can only, you can say so much about, here's how people should change. And then it's like, it's just up to people,
Starting point is 01:17:28 it's up to people to change. Right, in recovery, they say, you know, sobriety is not for those who need it. It's for those who want it. And that's true of anything. It's true of diet, it's true of fitness, it's health or any kind of habit that you're looking to change.
Starting point is 01:17:40 Like you can't, and even today, I have couples coming up to me where one is doing better than the other with diet or whatever. And like, no, I'm trying to get, I brought, what happens is I do this talk that I do. And I, and I quite often I'll see in the audience, um, a couple, a woman and a man, and I don't know if they're married or boyfriend or girlfriend or whatever. And I, it's immediately obvious to me that the girlfriend or the wife has dragged the husband to this thing because she's trying to get her dude to like eat better.
Starting point is 01:18:10 Right. And she figures she brings him to see me talk that that's going to make the difference. And I can see the guy sitting there like he doesn't want to be there. You know what I mean? He's like, I, I love my girlfriend or my wife. I'm doing this for her, but I really don't want to be here. And I just, and I just focus and I'm like, okay, I'm doing this for her, but I really don't want to be here. And I just focus. And now I'm like, okay, this presentation is about him.
Starting point is 01:18:30 I'm going to try to make a connection with this guy. But ultimately, I know that I don't have any control over that. And she needs to understand, or he. It could be he with her. It's not a gender-specific thing at all. That you can't make these people want this change. That desire has to be internally driven and created. Yeah, of course it does. And I guess you can, as a couple, as part of the relationship,
Starting point is 01:18:54 you can, I guess, lay the foundation or let that person know how much it means to you to be respected in your choices and how much it would mean if they would sort of think about, but yeah, you can't, you can't make anyone change. I mean, it's just, it won't, it's hard enough to change when you want to. I mean, it's, you know, it takes work and it takes planning and it takes willpower. I think that the projection of one person onto another of, I want you to change, or I need you to change, or won't you please change actually creates resistance against that because the person who's on the receiving end of that, and I've gone through this before, is like, because of that,
Starting point is 01:19:28 they almost are like, it basically puts the barrier up where they become less likely to do it, just out of like a sense of trying to create some self-sovereignty around that. Like, you know, you can't tell me what to do or whatever. So how does that work in your marriage with your wife? I'm very lucky. Really, the day that I came home from that Tony Robbins seminar and said, I want to be vegan or vegetarian back then,
Starting point is 01:19:53 she was totally on board with it. So that clarity came immediately on the heels of that experience with Tony Robbins. What's funny is that I had been wanting to before that, but I had been in this mindset that you just couldn't do it as an athlete. But the last day of that seminar, and I'm always embarrassed to before that, but I had been in this mindset that you just couldn't do it as an athlete. But the last day of that seminar, and I'm always embarrassed to talk about this because I feel like everyone assumes I was brainwashed. Nobody's listening.
Starting point is 01:20:13 The last day was about health and energy. Because the first three days were, here's all this awesome stuff you're going to do, and set goals and break through barriers. The last day was, here's how to give yourself the energy to actually do that. Because it does take actual physical energy to stay up late and get up early and work at goals that are hard. So I think he promotes a diet that is pretty much vegan plus a little bit of fish. But I also had this ethical thing that was preexisting about not wanting to eat meat.
Starting point is 01:20:43 So I just took that as I would like to be a vegetarian. And yeah, I came home and we'd had the discussion before about we just didn't really feel right about eating meat. And actually before that, we had totally cut out all four-legged animals for a whole year without really the plan or desire to go further. But we just said we don't really feel right about eating pigs and cows. It just didn't seem right. Whereas somehow back then eating birds and fish, it just seemed like they were more distant
Starting point is 01:21:09 from us. So we were okay with that then. You're such a speciesist, speciesism. You got to be careful when you talk about, I mean, you will offend somebody with everything you say. You're going to get in trouble. Where do you see the comments? Right.
Starting point is 01:21:21 Well, let's just not put this on a vegan post. But yeah, so i was very lucky and then when i decided i wanted to be vegan she you know we're we're a really good match and we tend to kind of grow together in that way and when i was ready it seemed like she was at the same point ready too yeah so i've been very very lucky and i i see people who do struggle with this and say i want to go vegan but my spouse absolutely doesn't. Right. It's a real problem. That would be tough, yeah. Yeah, I mean, what do you usually say in that situation? I say there are some books,
Starting point is 01:21:53 like I think there's one called The Flexitarian Diet, that this wasn't really the purpose of it, but they had a lot of meals in there where you could either put the meat in at the end or not, and it would work either way. Well, that's interesting. Yeah, so I said- So you're making one meal, but just one's going to have-
Starting point is 01:22:07 Yeah, and for the most part, it was throwing, you throw it in at the end. So it wasn't like you had to use two pots the whole time. You could just somehow serve it and prepare the meat in some other dish and then add it in at the end. So to someone who is the cook in their house and they're asking, how do I do this? I do suggest that.
Starting point is 01:22:23 Mainly though, as far as how do you actually get the person to change? I just, the only thing I know how to tell them is just be an example. Like if you want someone to change, if you want someone to be turned on to your vegan diet, don't, like you said, because they're going to put up barriers if you try to compel them to do it and try to convince them that they should be doing it too. Like be an example. If you are, if you are, whatever, let's just say the husband and you're 30 pounds overweight, like show your significant other that, that you, this diet is helping you, giving you more energy than you're going to lose those 30 pounds. Or you're going to go run a half marathon. Like if you're someone who's never, ever even considered, or no one would ever consider that you would run a marathon, like
Starting point is 01:23:03 you're just not that type of person, go do that. And then people will look at you and say, wow, there must be something to what they're doing. Like that's, that's just the only way I know how to influence. Like that don't, you know, that's the only way that I want to. So just be an example is always my advice. Yeah. I think that's wise. I mean, just, uh, your actions speak louder than your words and do what feels right to you and you will attract the right people around you so it's really about attraction rather than promotion yep absolutely
Starting point is 01:23:31 and how about with so you have two kids now right two kids a three and a half year old and a four month year old and so how is it working with the diet with the children and how you're raising them it's been really, really easy. I mean, the youngest, the infant, she still breastfeeds
Starting point is 01:23:48 and has formula. That takes care of that. Yeah, yeah. So that's not a problem yet. Our son, because he's just been raised with this, to him, it's just weird that people would eat animals. He doesn't really, in some way, doesn't seem to believe that people actually do eat chickens
Starting point is 01:24:07 when they say they're eating chickens. So he's totally fine with it. I mean, he loves the food we cook him. We have a garden, too, and the other day, some vegetable, he wouldn't eat it. And then my wife said, but we grew this in our garden because he helped her plant it and do some stuff. I'm inside blogging, of course.
Starting point is 01:24:25 I just am not like the outdoorsy garden guy at all. But so once she told him it was from our garden and that he helped grow it, then he wanted more of it. He wanted to eat it and wanted seconds of it. He just loved it then. So I think that's such an incredible relationship with food, not necessarily because he's vegetarian, but just because we are so into what we eat and being connected to it, he is too, which is awesome. And I don't know, when the day comes
Starting point is 01:24:53 when he does go to a birthday party and everyone else is having hamburgers, how are we going to handle that? I don't really know the answer. We've talked about this before on my podcast a little bit. But I think it'll be a very gentle approach. And if he does want to try things, I want him to make the choice.
Starting point is 01:25:08 I don't want to make the choice for him. So I think we'll be pretty lax about it, but we're not going to cook anything in our house that's not vegan. Yeah, I mean, I think it's about, I mean, what you're saying really is if you can foster in the child an emotional connection to where the food is coming from.
Starting point is 01:25:26 So he grew it in the garden. So then he's suddenly excited to eat a food that he originally didn't think that he was going to like. Similarly, what we do with our kids is incorporate them into the preparation of the meals and the cooking. So every meal is an opportunity to teach your kid like, hey, here's how we make this. Come and help. And then they learn how to make the foods that they like, and then that's what they want to make. That's what they choose to make
Starting point is 01:25:51 because they know how to make it, and there's a sense of pride of ownership that comes with that. And then they're wanting to make that choice, the healthier choice. Yep, and we do that to the extent that we can with a three-and-a-half-year-old. Sometimes that goes awry a little bit. Yeah, And you gotta be careful. Don't put your hand in
Starting point is 01:26:08 the Cuisinart. Yeah. You have to exercise a little parental guidance with that for sure. Yep. But, um, that's good. I'll be interested to hear more about how, you know, how, how you're going to navigate it when the birthday parties and all that kind of stuff comes up because it doesn't come up and yep and you know i've shared about it and i shared about with you and on this podcast as well i mean we're it's the same thing like we don't create any rules around it like they that's if my daughters go to a birthday party and they have cake i'm not going to be the dad who says you can't have that because you're creating something for them to ultimately rebel against later creates a lot of resistance. But I try to empower them by giving them healthy foods
Starting point is 01:26:48 and educating them about foods and then giving them the respect, even at an early age, to say, okay, I'm trusting you to make the right choice. And they go and they eat the thing that they want to eat that's not good for them. And I don't shame them or say you did something bad or you're a bad person. It's just like, okay, well, how do you feel? Oh, I feel sick. Okay, well, just remember that. And it's cool.
Starting point is 01:27:11 It's fine or whatever. And the more that it's self-generated out of them, like, hey, I don't know that I want to eat that because that didn't make me feel good, as opposed to that's going to make you feel bad. I don't want you to eat that. Those are two very different things. Yeah, they are. And I'm actually just you to eat that. Those are two very different things. Yeah, they are. And I'm actually just interested to hear these tips. I mean, this is actually really useful for me to hear that, but I feel like as much as I'm, as much as I never want to tell someone or be seen,
Starting point is 01:27:34 you know, as telling someone they should do something and I know what they should do and what's best for them. It's also your job as a parent to do that, right? Yeah, exactly. That's what I say. That's part of your job as a parent is to tell them what's best and guide them. So, I mean, by all means, we will be explaining to him why we choose this diet, but there's not going to be any guilt given to him or my daughter, because she will also grow up. He's not the only one who will. She will get bigger.
Starting point is 01:27:59 Nah, I don't think so. I'm in denial of that. She'll never be 20 and want to go out in some short shorts or anything I'm sure it happens fast yeah these days too my nine year old is like nine
Starting point is 01:28:11 going on 21 yeah so but a great adventure and so they're all they're all so they're they're not
Starting point is 01:28:17 so this this tour you're doing this solo mostly solo for the most part I'm gonna have the interesting I'm going to have, the interesting, I'm the only one
Starting point is 01:28:26 who's going on all of it, but at all different parts there are different people who are going to be coming with me. My mom's actually going to join me for the first few dates of it,
Starting point is 01:28:34 which will be kind of cool because she's not a vegetarian or vegan, but she's been very helpful to me and extremely supportive of being a business entrepreneur and doing my own thing. And she definitely has changed her diet as a result.
Starting point is 01:28:47 Not too vegetarian or vegan, but moved that direction, which is cool. Yeah, my family's going to fly out to see me in Seattle and a couple places out west, and then they'll fly back because we would just never try to drive the kids 12 hours in the car one day. That wouldn't go too well. And then Matt Russigno's going to join me for a little bit. Part of it, I think. Oh, cool. And where does he, is he in port? Where does he live? No, he's in, uh, usually San Diego, but sometimes he gets to LA apparently. And then Doug, who,
Starting point is 01:29:15 uh, does the podcast with me, who was at the booth today, he's going to come out for, uh, like between Phoenix and, and Austin, I think. So a lot of different people at different points. So it won't be too much alone time. So you're just going to get in the No Meat Athlete van, right? And start heading west? Like, where is this going? Like, tell me, so what's next? Like, hit me with some of the upcoming,
Starting point is 01:29:36 I mean, obviously you can't tell me all 40, but what are some of the cool, like, kind of events or cities that you're looking forward to hitting? And I'm sure you have a schedule on your site, right? Yep, there is a site. It's at nomeatathlete.com slash book dash tour. or cities that you're looking forward to hitting? And I'm sure you have a schedule on your site, right? Yep, there is a site. It's at nomadathlete.com slash book dash tour. And that has all the events there.
Starting point is 01:29:53 I mean, first it's going to start with the East Coast, Philadelphia, Boston, New York. Then I'm going to actually interrupt the tour for a little bit to do a Ragnar relay with some friends, which sounded like a good idea a few months ago. Now it sounds like the worst idea I've ever had in my entire life. Yeah, you probably have this idea like, oh, it's going to be good because I'm going to be, for the most part, away from my family
Starting point is 01:30:08 so I'll have time. I can get up in the morning and run. And now you're here and you're like, oh, there's no time for any of that. No, not at all. And I have to run 40 miles as part of this thing. And I've run 12 miles. It's my longest run since the 100, really. I mean, I don't doubt it will get done because there are lots of breaks and things but yeah so then there's that and uh and
Starting point is 01:30:28 then it just starts to head out west i mean ohio michigan colorado and then what i'm really looking forward to is like the northwest seattle portland just where you know it's just so far ahead of the east coast in terms of this lifestyle and diet and I haven't really spent much time out there at all so I'm really looking forward to that and being there with my family too that would be very cool and California there's all kinds of cool different things
Starting point is 01:30:54 there's like a vegan book fair in LA that happens to be when I'm in town so I'm going to do that we're talking to Rip Esselstyn a little bit about meeting up in Austin and maybe trying to do some sort of event I don't know if that'll happen but just lots of people all over the place i'm going to do one with leo from zen habits and uh jesse from sam of rt who's a friend of leo's and sometimes shows up on his site a little bit but we're going to do like a little
Starting point is 01:31:16 panel uh sid garza hillman who's been on your podcast that's where i met him he's going to join me for one of the san Francisco events and maybe an Oakland event. So it's just like all over the place. There are all these cool people that just happen to be there. That's great. And we're going to do them together. So yeah, I'm really looking forward to all that. That's really cool.
Starting point is 01:31:35 I'm glad you're going to see Sid, too. Yeah. He's awesome. We haven't met yet. Oh, you haven't? Not in person. Power of podcasting, man. Tanya.
Starting point is 01:31:43 Seriously, that's how I, like, he sent me a thing that said, do you want to review my book? And you get a bunch of those. So just mostly I'm just like in delete mode, unless it seems really, really interesting. But I recognize his name from your podcast and, and just, we started talking and connected really well. Yeah, it's good. His book's great. It is good. Very much the same attitude we're talking about of like, just low key habit formation, not trying to be perfect, very much in line with our message. And now he just started a podcast. Yep, I saw it.
Starting point is 01:32:10 It's all happening, man. I know. I know, cool. So when are you going to be in LA? LA is November 3rd. Okay. It's for a Compassion Over Killing event, actually, their vegan book fair.
Starting point is 01:32:20 And I might be there. That would be awesome. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Good, man. And how's Asheville treating you when did you move to Asheville like a year and a half ago or something like that pretty much exactly May 2012 or April 2012 it's it's great it's just like to me it's like the east coast's west coast like it's it's how you get all that stuff that's in Portland and
Starting point is 01:32:41 and in bigger cities too but it's's, uh, it's in the mountains of North Carolina. So there's great trail running, big running scene, big vegan scene, uh, just a lot of hippies and weirdos. Like it's really a very funky place, but, uh, we love it. It's just, it's such a cool place. And it's, it's amazing that you can, that you can now work, you know, be location independent and not just with your own job, but like in, even with, with working for someone else, you can set things up in many cases where you can just go travel the world. I mean, that is amazing.
Starting point is 01:33:11 Yeah. I've never been there, but everybody I know that's been there just says it's the greatest place. It is. It's definitely a weird mix. I mean, it's also the weirdest place I've ever been. It's just the mix of types of people are there and the dynamic. It's just because there's a lot of retirees there. There are a lot of people who do,
Starting point is 01:33:29 the thing about Asheville is there aren't that many jobs. Like there are a lot of, if you want to be an artist and you're okay with kind of struggling and I mean, very few of the artists are very successful, but so there are a lot of like street musicians who are really good and they're the same musicians
Starting point is 01:33:42 who play in the bars at night. And then there's, I mean, every other kind of art too besides music. street musicians who are really good. And they're the same musicians who play in the bars at night. And then there's, I mean, every other kind of art too, besides music. So there's that scene. And then there's the people like me who just have a good situation where they can work where they want. And then you've got the retirees. It's just like a weird mix of people. And it seems like everyone's kind of accepted there.
Starting point is 01:34:01 You can go out in a polo shirt and you'll be next to the person who like smells bad and wears a tie-dye shirt and like no one cares like everyone's like kind of just cool with everybody so it's really cool for that utopia not quite but it sounds cool no it's great man well listen um thank you for taking all the time today thank you i mean this is your podcast has always been to me like the, you know, the podcast in this niche. That's,
Starting point is 01:34:29 that's like the cool one. And I was telling this to our, our hen house the other day I was on theirs and like, you know, these are, these are things that I just always think are like, you know, just like my,
Starting point is 01:34:40 our little podcast. And I'm not, this isn't me being modest. Our little podcast is like such a little, like the setup you have here have here like we have we do it by Skype and like some days the mics don't work and this sounds bad that happens it just happened to me the other day you know I just got this new fancy stuff but uh but there's no I mean yeah on Skype I've had I've lost two podcast episodes I did one with Michael Greger I dropped the hard drive and it broke you know like I've believe me you know so but still I mean it's's very, very cool to be doing this stuff.
Starting point is 01:35:09 And I'm, I'm honored that people want to have me on a guest. So it's, it's very, very cool. Of course, man. Well, uh, you're an inspiration and, uh, I love the book. I'm happy and proud to, uh, help support it. Um, so everybody needs to go and get this book. It's great. You're doing a great service and you're putting a lot of great information out there. And you've devoted your life to this. This is what you're doing.
Starting point is 01:35:35 And it's a very authentic message. It comes from a really good place. And I feel great about supporting what you're doing. So if there's anything else i can do to help you out man you've done funny man i mean and from inspiration standpoint alone you've done funny and so i really really appreciate that oh thanks man so uh the full what's the full title of the book i don't know that i know the full title is long i sometimes botch it myself it's no meat athlete run on plants plants, and discover your fittest, fastest, happiest self.
Starting point is 01:36:05 And that happiest is kind of my little warning that it's going to be a little bit of self-help goal setting stuff. I had to sneak that in. All right, cool. And the best place for people to check that out and find it is on Amazon? Or would you like to go to your website? Really, it doesn't matter to me. Amazon, Barnes & Noble, IndieBound,
Starting point is 01:36:21 if you're more into supporting independents. If you want to see it on my site where I have an info page with like lots of nice things that people like you have said about it that's nomadathlete.com
Starting point is 01:36:30 slash book dash info okay so check all that out check that out please yeah if you do want to buy it on Amazon click through the Amazon banner
Starting point is 01:36:38 at richroll.com first and then we we're both happy right absolutely there we go I'd be thrilled if people did that and then
Starting point is 01:36:44 just nomadathlete.com. You can literally go to his site and he has so much content on there. Just search for what you're interested in, anything related to diet, nutrition, running, fitness. And he's sure to have a post up there. Tons and tons of great information. So go there first.
Starting point is 01:37:04 And you're on Twitter? No Meat Athlete. On Twitter, No Meat Athlete. Facebook? Facebook. No Meat Athlete. So in terms of the social networking, you're more Facebook than Twitter guy, right?
Starting point is 01:37:15 Yeah. How does that work for you? I love Twitter and the idea of it. And it's awesome for connecting with other people who are in this blogging space. But it took me a while to realize this, that the people who read No Meat Athlete are by and large on Facebook.
Starting point is 01:37:28 So that's where I go to connect with bloggers and other people who are doing the same thing as me is Twitter, and it's lots of fun. But Facebook is where the normal No Meat Athlete reader is. Right, okay. So go to the Facebook page. How many Facebook fans do you have now? You have a lot.
Starting point is 01:37:42 45,000 or something. That's great, man. Wow. Yeah, it is. Awesome. Yep. You have a lot. 45,000 or something. That's great, man. Wow. Yeah, it is. Awesome. Yep. All right, cool. And if you want to meet up with Matt on the road,
Starting point is 01:37:51 go to his site and check the schedule. Yeah. NoMeatAthlete.com forward slash book dash tour. There you go. And there you know it. And anything else you want people to know about, man? No, that's really it. I hope you check out the book.
Starting point is 01:38:04 The podcast, dude. Oh, yeah. We have a podcast. Come on. Like I said, it's a little weird. else you want people to know about man no that's really it i hope you check out the book uh the podcast dude oh yeah we have a podcast come on like i said it's the no meat athlete podcast no it's fun and a lot of people like that and a lot of people have found us that way so it's a very cool thing yeah itunes no meat athlete you can just search for it and you'll find it we've done 17 or something episodes we're not quite as prolific as the rich roll podcast well it takes a lot of time man you got you got a book to get out right now. You got to focus on that. You don't have time for all this podcasting nonsense.
Starting point is 01:38:28 All right, I got one last question for you and then I'm going to let you go. On your book on the back, you got a blurb from Sean Astin. So what's the story there? Well, first tell people who Sean Astin is who might not know. I know Sean Astin as Rudy from the great movie.
Starting point is 01:38:43 And I love that. I told you I was into this kind of corny stuff, but I love Rudy. So he was the guy who played Rudy. He's perhaps more famously been in Lord of the Rings. Lord of the Rings. Yeah, and I don't know anything about that stuff. He's Frodo, right? I don't know.
Starting point is 01:38:57 Which one is he? I don't know. My kids would know. Yeah, and he was also in The Goonies, I think. I could be wrong about that. But he's Rudy. He is Rudy. I love Rudy, man.
Starting point is 01:39:06 That's such a good movie. But yeah, so I noticed his name, that he had downloaded one of my products. Or maybe he had downloaded two of them, and I emailed him and said, these are kind of the same products you bought. Here's a refund for one of them. Which I've actually met several people that way. It seems like influential people just tend to buy both, because they're not so concerned about the money i guess and they just kind of get them but anyway uh so i just reached out to him and said like this is cool and then i
Starting point is 01:39:32 realized he had he had sent out a tweet about it but uh hadn't like tagged me on it so i didn't really see it but i just saw it on his twitter stream and we just got in touch and i kind of tried to help him out and promote his thing because Cause he has a thing called run third. Uh, it's, it's like a real, I don't know that much about it, but it's a really cool, it's cool, like movement for getting people to run. And so he's really into running and, uh, has been trying out a vegetarian diet, I think. And, uh, yeah, we just kind of connected a little bit, stayed in touch here and there. And I just asked him if he would, uh, want to support it. That's cool. That's really cool. Yeah. I have a little funny Sean Astin anecdote. Well, not really, but well, he lives near me and I don't know him. I've never met him, but I see him around. Like I'll see him like
Starting point is 01:40:15 around the Starbucks or whatever in my little town. And, um, and I knew he was like a, into running marathons or whatever. I've never spoken to him. I never introduced myself or anything. But I was at the pool, the little local pool where I swim. Maybe this was a couple months ago, maybe even like four or five months ago. And then like after I'd been swimming for a while, I noticed like the guy in the next lane. I was like, I think that's Rudy.
Starting point is 01:40:43 And there wasn't barely anybody at the pool. There might've been four or five people in the whole pool. It's like a little six lane, 25 yard pool. And, uh, but I was like, but he looks really skinny. Like he looks really good. And I was like, no, that's not him. And then I was like, no, that's him. You know? And I, and he was, and then he was talking to somebody else and he was saying how he had gotten, he had some injury and he couldn't run so he's going to the pool but he wasn't really a swimmer it was like a new thing for him to be at the pool and paddling around and stuff and i so wanted to like just introduce myself and i was like living in la
Starting point is 01:41:14 you get really jaded you know and i'm like you just leave celebrities alone people like that so i didn't say anything but now i have my end that's right so when I see him, I'm going to tell him I'm friends with Matt Frazier and I'm expecting big things out of him. Yeah. I will be a life changer for you. But had I known that you guys knew each other then, then I would have definitely said hello. I don't know.
Starting point is 01:41:36 He might've never gone back to the pool after that, but if I see him again, right. I won't reach out. Maybe he was just, maybe he was thinking the same thing. He's like, is that rich roll over there?
Starting point is 01:41:44 He's like, I can't go to that pool anymore. Rich Roll's there next to me. No. Anyway, man, it was a pleasure. I'm so glad we got a chance to do this and best of luck on the book tour, man. Me too.
Starting point is 01:41:54 All right, thanks a lot, Rich. All right, cool. All right, bye. Peace. Plants. Thank you.

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