The Rich Roll Podcast - The Queens Of EPIC5: Danielle Grabol & Melissa Urie On Girl Power Grit

Episode Date: February 8, 2019

In 2010, the tireless and intrepid Jason Lester hoodwinked me into his latest fit of voluntary suffering insanity: an attempt to complete 5 Ironman-distance triathlons on 5 Hawaiian Islands in under 5 days. Hence was born the EPIC5 Challenge — and somehow we survived to tell the tale. Now institutionalized, EPIC5 annually attracts a global handful of athletes adequately unhinged to retrace our steps. Over the last 8 years, 29 individuals have successfully completed the challenge. Three of these intrepid humans are women. Two of them are here today. Meet real-life Wonder Women Danielle Grabol & Melissa Urie – both athletes thriving on the cutting edge of ultra-endurance. But it wasn't always that way. Pushing 225 pounds, 15 years ago Dani was a junk food junkie and a pack-a-day smoker who couldn't even climb a flight of stairs without losing her breath (sounds familiar!). In 2005, her doctor told her that if she didn’t change her ways she’d be dead before she turned 40. So she hit the gym. It was hardly overnight, but ultimately Dani reinvented herself wholesale. Down 70 pounds, an athlete was born. But on a training ride a year later, Dani was struck by a drunk driver. Her injuries were so severe she was told she would never run or bike again. Instead, she went on to compete in multiple Ironmans and even a double-Ironman. In 2013 she was one-half of the youngest two-person female team to finish RAAM — the legendary bike race across the entire United States. And in 2016, Dani became the very first female to compete in and finish EPIC5 — a stereotype shattering story she lays bare in her beautiful memoir, Fear No Distance*. A mental health nurse from Melbourne, Australia, Mel grew up active but never competitive. But in 1998, in an effort to lose a bit of weight and get fit, she participated in the Great Victorian Bike Ride with her dad. Thus was sparked a passion for ultra-endurance. Over the years, Mel has completed 6 Ironmans and a few double ironman distances races, including Ultraman Canada and Ultraman Australia*. Like Dani, she discovered EPIC5 by way of Finding Ultra, signed up and in 2017, Mel became the second female to ever complete the challenge. The bottom line? Mel and Dani are two badass women who know how to get it done. And this conversation is about just that. It's about putting in the work. It's about patience. Determination and grit. Not being afraid to fail. It's about the mindset required to break stereotypes. And it's about the mental toughness demanded to compete at the highest level in an arena dominated by men. So check your excuses at the door and enjoy! To view our conversation on YouTube, visit bit.ly/danielleandmel421. And don't forget we're also now on Spotify. Peace + Plants, Rich NOTE: *I recorded this interview way back in mid-November. At the time, Mel was preparing for the Ultraman World Championships in Hawaii. Unfortunately she did not finish that race. I'm not sure what happened but I'll find out and let you know.

For me, in terms of the mindset stuff, I like the point where you're not wanting to go any further. Like when you get to that point of, you know, this is really hard, I'm really starting to struggle here, I find that's where my race starts. Like that's where my enjoyment really peaks because you have to push through and you have to find a way just to continue on. And then when it gets really, really hard, I'm like, yep, that's a sweet spot for me. I think the difference between people who are successful and people will be like, well, what does it take?

And it's not just the training, but I'm like, you've got to be grateful. I mean, you have to focus on the fact that this is an opportunity and it's a privilege. And the fact that you're here and you're able to do this and you're motivated enough and people care enough about you, like it's a privilege.

So don't be out there whining and complaining with a bad attitude because you're not going to make it. That's Mel Urie and Danny Grayball. And this is The Rich Roll Podcast. The Rich Roll Podcast. Hey people, what's the word? How you doing? What's good? This is Rich Roll, your host, my podcast. Welcome home. So for those of you who know my story, you know that back in 2010,

my buddy Jason Lester from my Ultraman days enlisted me in this harebrained scheme that he had to complete five Ironmans on five Hawaiian islands in just five days. It's a fit of insanity that he dubbed Epic Five. And if you read my book, Finding Ultra, you know that although it took us a beat longer than five days, we did successfully complete this challenge. But what you might not know is that Epic Five has gone on to become institutionalized. In fact, every year since Jason and I made our first attempt, Rebecca Morgan, who took over Epic Five from Jason a few years ago, takes a handful of athletes through what I endured. And every year, competitors from all over the world complete it in the allotted five

days, including three women who have done it over the years, which is just amazing. I love seeing people break these barriers and just take everything to the next level. And today, I'm super excited because two of these three intrepid women join me for the podcast. Danielle Grable and Melissa Ury, or just Danny and Mel as they go by, are here to share their experience on the cutting edge of ultra endurance. But first... We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety.

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recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care, especially because unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. It's a real problem. A problem I'm now happy and proud to share has been solved by the people at recovery.com,

who created an online support portal designed to guide, to support, and empower you to find the ideal level of care tailored to your personal needs. They've partnered with the best global behavioral health providers to cover the full spectrum of behavioral health disorders, to cover the full spectrum of behavioral health disorders, including substance use disorders, depression, anxiety, eating disorders, gambling addictions, and more. Navigating their site is simple. Search by insurance coverage, location, treatment type, you name it. Plus, you can read reviews from former patients to help you decide.

Whether you're a busy exec, a parent of a struggling teen, or battling addiction yourself, I feel you. I empathize with you. I really do. And they have treatment options for you. Life in recovery is wonderful, and recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. Okay, let's see, Danny and Mel. So Danny's story is really quite similar to mine. About 15 years ago, she was a junk food junkie pushing the scales at about 200 pounds. She lost her breath while walking up a flight of stairs. Sounds familiar.

And it hit her like a ton of bricks that it was time to make some serious life changes, especially after she endured this routine physical, which prompted kind of an ultimatum from her doctor. He basically said, get your act together and lose weight or prepare yourself for a pretty bleak future. And I'm going to let her explain how she got from that point to becoming the youngest two person female team to finish Ram, the Race Across America bike race. Ram, the Race Across America bike race, and in 2016, how she became the first female to compete in and finish Epic Five, the first female to do it, which is incredible. And that's a story that she tells in her book, which is called Fear No Distance.

Mel, on the other hand, has a little bit of a different story. She's a mental health nurse from Melbourne, Australia. She grew up active, but was never really competitive. And yet in 2017, she becomes the second woman ever to complete the Epic Five Challenge. So the first two women to ever do this thing are here today. Mel has also completed six Ironmans, as well as Ultraman Canada and Ultraman Australia. And at the time of recording this interview, which was way back in mid-November, she was in the midst of getting ready to compete at the Ironman World Championships in Kona. And unfortunately, she didn't finish that race.

And I'm going to admit that I'm not quite certain why. I was just checking the results a few minutes ago. And it appears something happened on the day two bike, but I just don't know right now as I'm recording this. So I'm going to try to find out more and I'll report back to you guys. In any event, basically, these are two incredibly badass women who know how to get it done. And this conversation is basically about how they did it. It's about putting in the work. It's about not being afraid to fail, embracing your accomplishments, both large and small, and the critical importance of developing grit, positive mindset, the will to succeed, and the mental toughness to really compete at the highest level in an arena dominated by that. I really enjoyed talking to this inspirational dynamic duo.

So without further ado, I give you Mel Urie and Danny Grayball. Awesome. So welcome, ladies. Thank you. So excited to talk to you guys today. I'm so tired of telling stories about Epic Five and Ultraman and stuff like that. Thank you. right? Yeah. So awesome. Super cool. So for people that are just listening on audio, why don't you introduce yourselves? I know you have accents that will distinguish yourselves, but I don't want people listening to be confused. Yes. So I'm Melissa Urie, Mel. I'm the Australian,

so I do sound different to you two. And I'm Danielle Grable, Danny, the person who's not Australian. Yeah. And you live in Atlanta, right? Atlanta, Georgia. Atlanta area. And you live in Melbourne, right? Yes. Yeah. Cool. So this is like a stop before you're heading to Hawaii, right? Yeah. And you're going to be doing the Ultraman World Championships. Yes. But so you've done two Ultramans, but this is going to be your first World Championship one? First Hawaii, yes. Super exciting.

Yeah. Can't wait. It's cool. So let's just tell the whole story. I mean, first of all, how did you guys each get interested in doing Epic Five in the first place? Well, I actually read about it in Finding Ultra. Oh, you did? And that's exactly... I apologize for that. Sorry about that. My parents, thank you. So I read about it in Finding Ultra, and I had this conversation with my husband. And I was like, listen, I read this book, and this guy Rich, I'm like, he is an idiot. You won't believe what he did. And I start telling him all about it.

And fast forward a couple years later, we were out in Hawaii. My husband did Epic Man. We met Jason Lester. Explain what Epic Man is. So Epic Man was a traditional triple Ironman. Lester. Explain what Epic Man is. So Epic Man was a traditional triple Ironman. So a 7.8 mile swim, a 336 mile bike, and then a, was it a 78, 72 mile run? Yeah. 72 mile run, something like that. Right. 481 miles continuous. So that's where we met Jason Lester and Rebecca and her whole group. And Rebecca's here. She's just off mic right here. But Rebecca and her whole group. And Rebecca's here.

She's just off mic right here. But Rebecca runs Epic Five now. She does. If you read Finding Ultra, then you know that she was our angel. Jason and I would have never been able to do what we did without all of Rebecca's tireless help and love. Exactly. help and love. Yeah, exactly. So a couple years after that, somebody that was volunteering had posted something about Epic Five Applications. And I just saw it on Facebook. And I just sent this kind of random text message to her. And I said, hey, I think I was texting either Rebecca

or Jen and just said something to the effect of, just curious. I just got on the website, like, has a woman ever done it before? And they said, no. And then I'm like, really? Wow. I was like, I think I want to do this. And then- So what was that? I mean, you went from like, this guy's an idiot to like, I'm going to do this? Well, so it was a woman. A woman owned the race. A woman was putting on the race. The primary volunteers were all women. And it just, for some reason, kind of bothered me that a woman had not done it. So I felt like that needs to change. Like there needs to be a woman that comes and participates in the race. Right.

And it wasn't because they were excluding women, but women had not applied up until that point. And we should probably clarify, I think there's a lot of people that think, if they just read Finding Ultra, that it was just a thing that Jason and I went and did, and then it was over with. But Jason and then Rebecca have kind of taken this event and made it an official annual thing. So every year, a group of people attempt to do this. And you guys amongst them. Exactly. Yeah, cool. What about you, Mel? Well, yes, Finding Ultra was my introduction as well. Yeah, so I first looked at Ultraman. That was my, you know, that would be amazing. I really

want to do that race. And I went, you know, on would be amazing. I really want to do that race. Um, and I went, you know, on the internet, looked up, found there was a race in Canada. So I went and did that one. And then afterwards I'm like, you know, you know, Epic five, it just still seemed too big, too crazy to out there. And I was talking to a friend and he actually made a bet with me and he said, if you do Epic five, I'll do ultra man. And I was like, all right, game on. And that was all it took. That was all it took. Well, I think in some way, in the back of my mind, I always knew I was going to do it, but I just needed to have that. Yes, you can do multi-day events. Yes. You know, you are actually able to physically do these things. And I did Ultraman and I got through that. Canada was a

bit crazy, but you know, finished that one. And then I went, all right, well, that didn't kill me. So let's go for another couple of days and let's try something else. And you come from a swimming background, yeah? Yeah, I've been swimming since I was a kid, yeah. And what got you interested in the world of ultras? I think they're just, you know, doing Ironmans. I did, you know, a couple of Ironmans and I was like, yeah, they're good, but what else is there?

How far can I push this, really? And I'm still looking for that limit. I still haven't found that yet. Yeah, clearly you haven't. No, I have not. And Dani, you're married to an ultra athlete, right? Correct. So this is a family affair.

Yeah, I'm married to super talented, done everything from 41-mile swims, 100-mile runs, triple Ironmans. We're doing a 1,000-mile bike race together in June. So, yeah. That's crazy. So, how do you train together? We don't. We actually don't see each other. You must never see each other again.

We don't. We are like ships passing. This is like a perfect relationship. It actually, everybody's like, what's the key? And I'm like, well, we see each other twice a week. Oh, my God. So we work totally opposite schedules from each other. We do really barely see each other.

It's very, that's one of the hardest things. We both did a double Ironman together. And that was probably one of the hardest things that I've ever trained for. Because when I train for Epic Five, he literally does everything. He does the grocery shopping. He does the cooking. He does the cleaning. All I do is work and train.

So I come home and everything's done. Taken care of. Done. Here's your food. Eat it and then go to bed. And then what? It's his turn and then you do that for him? Exactly.

So you take turns? Exactly. But the training, I mean, these are many months of ramping up. So that means that you then have to take a break or he has to take a break, right? And that's how you balance it. Yeah. And that's really the only way that it works. And especially, we're self-financed too. So it's not like we have an endless pit of money to just throw at races. So you're spending- These races are expensive. Very expensive. Yeah. So it's a big commitment. I mean, you're committing the money and the time

and the energy. And then that's kind of the give and take of our relationship. It's like, I'm going to help you get through this. And then it's going to be your turn to do something kind of later down the line. Right. But doing it at the same time is no bueno. No. So the 1,000 mile bike race is going to be a little interesting. Yeah. Why is that? Because you guys have different training styles or you just get on each other's nerves or what? I would love to train with him.

So if I am in – Mel's laughing. I know. I was thinking about my husband and I, we do not train together because we cannot know. Yeah. We would just clash the whole time. Uh-huh. Yeah.

Well, we just did a big trip through Europe, and we biked together. We did pretty good. So we did good. If he's riding with me, it means something's wrong with him, and that's not cool. So I don't really want him to be able to ride with me because it means that I'm in amazing shape and he's not. And that's not a great place to be. So if I'm dropping him on a bike ride. That's like an ego thing. Yeah, but I don't want him to be. So if I'm dropping him on a bike ride... That's like an ego thing.

Yeah. But I don't want him to be feeling bad. I want him to be faster than me because he should be faster than me. Right. Well, I want to work my way up to the why behind all of this. But first, I think the best way to kind of get into that, I think, is to talk a little bit about the backstory here. Because you, Dani, have a very interesting path that got you to this place that I can certainly relate to. Definitely. Yeah. I was overweight and just really kind of struggling with just kind of everyday activities, walking up the stairs, everything. Just really- Yeah. On your website, it said, I think you were 220

at your heaviest, and you had a staircase episode. Not dissimilar from my own. I don't know what is going on in the universe, but I read that and I was like, hello. Yeah, I did. I had a doctor who really just kind of laid it all out for me and was like, look, you have a family history of type 2 diabetes, high blood pressure, heart disease. At the path you're going, you're 22 years old, and you're going to be diabetic. You're going to be dead. Wow, 22 this was happening. Yeah. Uh-huh.

Yeah. And had you been an athlete prior to that? No. Didn't play sports in high school or anything? No. Nothing beyond cheerleading. But nothing. I've always been competitive, but not particularly talented. Most people, when they get that news, because a lot of people get that news,

they're sort of told, look, you got to eat a little bit better. You got to go to the gym. You got to take care of yourself. And I always sort of think of that as being, I mean, it's good advice, I suppose, but it's so vague. I mean, what does that really mean? So when you got that edict from your doctor, how did you translate that into action? Well, I didn't really even know how to start because when I say that my eating habits were poor, I mean, it was like McDonald's every day, bad. Like coffee with sugar and cream. I mean, it was like McDonald's every day bad. Like coffee with sugar and cream. I mean, it was just... Looking back on it now, it almost makes me feel like sick. I was so disgusting. What was your favorite?

Probably... Come on. My favorite, if you want to know the truth, was ordering pizza and dipping it in ranch dressing. Uh-huh. Wow. And eating pepperoni pizza dipped in ranch dressing. And it was... Oh gosh, it was just, at the time, it just, yeah. You like that more than cheeseburgers? Yeah, I could care less about burgers.

But yeah, I know that was it. And so I didn't even, I didn't know where to start. But I knew stuff like that wasn't healthy. So every week. And you're a nurse now, right? Oh, I work in geriatrics. I run a home care company. Yeah. So I should, that was what was kind of interesting about it for me was I'm working with people who have invested a lot of time and energy taking care of themselves.

And that's why they are living to this age. And here I am like selling you a service and providing you this care, but I'm never going to be one of you. Right. That disconnects. Yeah. It was a big disconnect. It's like when you roll up to the hospital and you see the orderlies and the nurses and

the doctors outside on the smoke break. That's exactly what it was like. Yeah. And it's like, I'm never going to be one of you. They're morbidly obese. 80 and 90-year-olds don't exist. But at 22, you were probably just still in school, right? Or just out of school? Exactly. So at 22, there is no just still in school, right? Or just out of school?

Exactly. So at 22, there is no world outside of your little universe, except for when you decide to start thinking kind of more globally and you start thinking about the rest of your life. So I started really thinking about 40, 50, 60 and what that was going to look like. And it wasn't very pretty. And so what were the steps that you took to address your diet and lifestyle habits? The first thing I did was quit smoking because I smoked too.

So I quit smoking. And then every week, I would try to give up one thing. And then every month, I would just try to give up something else. And then all my little changes turned into big changes. So it was just- So it was eliminating things as opposed to building things in, at least initially? It was a little bit of both. And then reinforcing, rather than approaching it from deprivation, so thinking you can't have this, I would always try to associate how good I felt when I ate fruits

and vegetables versus French fries. So instead of saying, well, I can't have fries, it was never that like, oh, you can't have that. It was just that I'm choosing to have a banana because that makes me feel better. Right. It's still a huge gap between quitting smoking and stopping dipping pizza in a ranch dressing to doing Epic Five, though. It is. You know what I mean? So walk me through the process.

It's huge. So I just joined the gym. But first, I mean, I couldn't even get through. I have a cousin who had a Pilates and yoga video, and I couldn't even make it through that home exercise video. So my goal was when I can make it through one hour of her video, then I'm going to go to the gym. And then I would go to the gym and I would just try to do like 15 minutes on each piece of cardio equipment possible because I couldn't do more than 15 minutes. And then

eventually that led to a spin class. And then a spin class led to meeting people who did triathlons. And I was like, wow. And so it was just literally like every little step, like, oh, I think I can do a sprint triathlon. And then like Mel was saying, every time I'd finish something, it'd be like, wow, that was great. But I think I can do more. And then- So it's a very gradual process of like increasing the pressure and the intensity. You do an Ironman and you're like, that hurts. But man, there's like more out there. Like there are people are doing things that are just crazy and crazy. They're like, I want in on that. What do you think the thing is? I mean,

people who, you know, tackle a difficult challenge, of course, there's a great sense of accomplishment, but I feel like people have one of two reactions in the wake of that. They're like, that was awesome. That was great. Never again. Or like, sign me up for the next one immediately. How can I go harder, longer, faster? What do you think that difference is about? I mean, obviously, you both chose the latter. Yes. I think some people don't like the process, though. Some people, my experience is everybody wants the finish line. Everybody wants the metal, but people don't want to put the work in. I'm very open about Epic Five and Double Ironmans and the training, and people are like, that's great. I think I would like to do that. And I'm like, well, I'll show you all my training. Oh, never mind. So people want to say they did it, but they don't want to really get up at 4.15

in the morning. And what they miss is that the real gift, I mean, looking back on it now, yeah, you can remember finishing these races, but the real value when you reflect back is that process. Like, I'm sure when you think about it, it's like, oh, remember that day, like when it was pouring rain and I didn't want to go out to train and I went anyway? Like, that's the gift. Yeah, exactly. Absolutely. And I also think that people choose in their time of life that, yes, I'm going to commit to this at this time, and then it's not going to happen again. Like that's just, you know, life happens and different things happen. And I go, all right, this is going to be my six months where I put it all in and then I'll move on to whatever after that as well. So, yeah. Right. And I suppose it's worth saying like, look, not everybody has, you know, 30 hours a week. I mean, it is like a job if you want to show up fully prepared. Absolutely. And

you have to reconfigure your life to prioritize that. I describe it as having two full-time jobs when I'm training. Yeah. Yeah. There's no question about it. All right, so what was it like for you, Mel, then? Like getting, I mean, it sounds like you've been doing this for a long time. It was more just part of who you always have been. Oh, sort of. I did sport when I was a kid. I love how Australians call it sport.

I don't know what you call it. What do you call it? I went to university and I did sport. Wait, let's have What do you call it? I went to university. All right. And I did sport. Wait. I went to hospital. How do I tell you what they swim in? What? What?

Oh, in bathers. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. In bathers? Yeah. I didn't know about that. Yes. But I do. What do they call the speedos for the guys in Australia?

Oh, budgie smugglers. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was in Australia. I went to Manly Beach. And they were like, this is the home of the budgie. I guess that's where they named it or something like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I went to, I was in Australia, I went to Manly Beach and they were like, this is the home of the Budgie. I guess that's where they named it or something like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's a company called Budgie Smugglers that sells Speedos. Yeah. Anyway. Yeah. Like, I mean, we can talk about that for hours. We have been. Yeah. I mean, yeah, it wasn't, it wasn't that, cause I grew up in the country. I grew up in the middle of nowhere.

You know, I tell people where I'm from who are from Australia and the first question is where's that? So, yeah, like our parents had to drive us anywhere that we went. So, you know, my brother and I, we'd play sport, you know, we'd play basketball and things. But it's all just local, you know, just play with your friends, muck around, like nothing serious. Yeah, I was never competitive at, you know,

any of the things I was doing. And then I went to uni, studied, and I wasn't really doing anything at that time. And then my brother got married in 2005, and I was looking back over the wedding pictures, and his best man had gone off and joined the Navy, and he'd gotten really fit. And he looked at me, he's like, let's go for a run. And I was like, ah, okay, sure. Because, you know know, like I wasn't really doing anything. I'd put on a bit of weight. And so the morning of the wedding was actually the first time I'd really run for years. And, um, and I was so sore that night. I was thinking about that the other

day. And then, yeah, like, you know, I ended up having a news resolution and I'm like, all right, time to get fit, time to focus on your health. You know, you're starting working now, you know, let's be a bit more serious about this. And so, yeah, you know, I did and I was working on the ninth floor of the hospital. So I just walk up the stairs to every shift, you know, you'd get there and, you know, take five minutes to catch your breath and everything. But I'm like, whatever, you know, and started eating a lot healthier. And then I saw a friend do a triathlon and I'm like, that looks really fun. I need to actually start running more because I'd never really run. I'd never been, you know, I'd been riding my bike and I've been swimming, but not, not,

you know, anything seriously. So, yeah, then I started, you know, I signed up for a 5k and then a 10k and then did a couple of triathlons and just absolutely loved it. Like they were the little mini baby ones, like, you know, 250 meters swim, 10k run or 10k ride and 2K run. And I'd always noticed my run would be the worst out of all my three legs that I was doing. So I was like, okay, need to focus on that. Need to, you know, build that up a bit. So I signed up for a half marathon the next year. So I was like, well, that'll give me a big run focus. So I did that. And it was,

that was my first taste of doing something a bit longer and I crossed the line. I was like, that was amazing. I want more of that. Like that was really cool. So then, yeah, just kept progressing and getting longer and longer. So then I did, you know, Olympic distance race and then 2008 is when I started doing like half Ironmans and then Ironman and then, you know, just kind of kept going, okay, so what's next, what's next?

And, you know, when I did my first half Ironman, I was 70.3. The first words when I crossed the finish line was, that was amazing. I want to do another one. So I signed up for another one, did it six weeks later because I was like, let's just keep doing that. So why, I mean, a lot of people that get into this, they work their way up to Ironman and then they just try to progress within Ironman to get faster and better at Ironman to get to Kona. So what was it that spoke to you or that appealed to you about making the leap into the ultra world? Like what's different about the traditional triathlon, you know, marathoning world versus the ultra world for you guys? Well, I think we were talking about this earlier today

and we've literally, for people that just met each other, we've talked about almost everything humanly possible since we've talked on the phone a couple of times. Did you guys train together? No, we don't. No, but you would know. And you guys, we should say, oh, you did? Yeah, yeah, just met.

Because you did have like five on different years. Correct, yes. But we had talked to each other beforehand. So I had talked to her. Yeah. But we met each other Friday night. It was amazing. Or no, Monday.

Monday. Monday. We both were just talking about that earlier. I'm a diesel. I am the kind of person, just give me some food and just send me on my way and I'll come back in 10 hours. Like, but my pace doesn't stop. So for Ironman, you know, I have a lot of respect for people that, that do want to get fast and want to make it to Kona. And I think that's incredible. But for me, that's just not what I'm going to be. I'm not, I'm, there's only a certain amount of

weight that I'm going to be able to lose. Like, I'm just not going to be able to do that. I am made to go forever. Like that's just what I'm designed to do. So I realized that like the longer distance races, my bike times and like my swim times from a half to a full, like it wasn't changing. And I was like, uh, this is really weird. And then I was like, I just want to keep seeing if I can keep holding this pace. And then you do a double Ironman. I'm like, ah, my swim was just about the same for a regular Ironman. So I guess you realize at some point that you're not going to get that much faster. So you have to start going longer when you're kind of made for that. I think we both probably realized at some point we're made to go longer.

Yeah, yeah. No, my first coach that I had had always said, I'm a diesel. It's like, you know, exactly the same. You can just go all day. As long as you have enough food and water, you will just, you know, 10, 12 hours. Fine. I'll just keep going. I don't, you know, that's, that's, that's where I find my enjoyment.

Yeah. No, I feel you. I'm the same way. You know, now I go around and I do like, I go to events and there'll be a fun run or a group run and it's like, listen guys, I ain't that fast. You know what I mean? If we're going to run around the block, you guys are going to crush me. It's like, I ain't racing, that kind of thing. People are very disappointed. Get in that lane, takes me a very long time to get up to speed and then I get to whatever that

speed is and I can just hold that. And that's a very specific skill that works very well in ultras but isn't really translatable to anything else. No. It takes me like 60 miles to work up. Yeah. People are finishing the ride. I'm like, oh, I just – I feel warmed up now. Let's go. Right, right, right, right.

All right. So Epic Five. So, Dani, you did it first, right, in 2016, and then Mel, you did it last year in 2017. My memories of doing it in 2010 are as fresh as ever, life-changing for me, and I would imagine for both of you guys as well. Absolutely. Yeah, so let's talk about it. Is the race course the same? Rebecca, is it the same?

Did it change? Oh, it changed? There's always some kind of curveball condition, right, that throws it off and you have to adapt or whatever. I think from what I understand for both of you guys, like day three was the hardest day in Molokai. Yeah. Is that right? Yeah, definitely.

Yeah. That was my hard day. That was the day that, yeah, our day three, we were trying to land. And next thing you know, the plane's going back up in the air. And I'm like, wait a minute, I don't think they're landing this plane. And next thing you know, we're back in Oahu. And we're sitting there, and we're in the airport. And we'd been there for maybe like an hour, hour and a half. And Rebecca comes up and she's like, and we had all, there was only three people in the race at that point. We were wearing our bathing suits, our bathers. We were wearing them because we were ready. We were trying- On the plane.

Yeah, on the plane because we were trying to be so efficient with time. So Rebecca comes up and she's like, hey, listen, we need to change plans. We're going to have to run nine miles to the pool. And I'm like, my first reaction- Because there were sharks that year, right? So you couldn't swim in the ocean. Right. So we were swimming in a pool, but she was saying, we don't have enough time. When we land, you have to start racing. And I just looked at her and I was like, but I'm wearing my bathing suit. And she's like, well, it's okay. You have time to put your run clothes on.

And so the plan got on the ground. Suitcases come out. Clothes, running clothes. It's literally like put your running clothes on as soon as you can and just start running. Right. Awesome. Yeah. That's why it's called a challenge.

And that's why it's like, yeah, yeah. And it was, um, so that was the first kind of change of the day. So we ended up starting probably three or four hours later than we anticipated. And then from there, the day, the day got tough. The day got really tough. It was, it was a hard day. Um, so when I finished, my husband said, okay, you have 30 minutes before we have to be at the airport. Do you want to eat, sleep, or shower? And I was like, well, of course I want to sleep. So I just jumped in the van and tried to sleep for 30 minutes. And I dozed off and I woke up, we were at the airport. Right. So let me understand. So when we did it, when Jason and I did it, we did, obviously, Kauai was the first day.

Right. We ran the marathon first. We started at like 3.30 in the morning or something like that. And, you know, finished at the airport, you know, with three seconds to spare before getting on the plane to get to the next island. Flew to Oahu. We had all kinds of, remember that was... Rebecca, remember that's where we lost the bolts in our bikes and it was like a whole disaster the next day. So we didn't even get going the next day until like 10.30 AM or something like that. It was terrible.

Like that was our Molokai. It was crazy. Yeah. And we finished so late that it was like two in the morning, right? When we finished, I think. I think it was later than that. Yeah, it was super late. And so that's where we had to take a rest day. So for us, then we went to Molokai, and actually we felt pretty rested for Molokai because we had a little bit of a buffer there. Obviously, we didn't do it in five days like you guys did.

So I can imagine had we made that deadline that Molokai would have been really tough. For me, Maui was definitely the hardest. It was the hottest. It was the hottest. It was the windiest. But you guys got a second wind when you got to Maui. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so for me, Molokai was hard because my hamstrings locked up on the marathon

and I had to walk about 30K to finish that day because I hadn't been doing any of the body maintenance that you normally do. You're stretching, you're rolling, like anything like that. My legs were just like, yeah, no. Oh, there's no time. No, exactly. You're not sleeping. You're not eating. So what's the point? There's, yeah, there's no time for anything like that. Yeah. And like, again, it was, it was really, really hot that day. And yeah, I was just mentally just really, really struggling. And I remember on the run on day three, I was, you know, getting quite emotional

about everything. And I was saying to my husband, I'm like, oh, my God, I'm going to keep you guys up. He's like, it's fine, don't worry about it. I'm like, oh, okay. And then I just relaxed and went, all right, well, I'll just walk it in. Like I don't care, it's fine. And then so Maui, we ended up starting a bit later because our swim buoy, we call them boys, but our swim buoy disappeared I think somewhere.

So then like there was a bit of logistics of you guys sorting out what to do with, you know, the swim. And then the swim ended up being longer or something. I don't exactly know what happened. Was it the same beach, Rebecca, or Kihei Beach? Yeah. All I remember is getting out and seeing 6Ks on my garment. I just went for two hours.

And I was like, oh, well, that's done now. What do you do? Exactly. Like everybody else did it to you do like everybody else yeah yeah yeah yeah I think some people are a bit stressed about it but I was like well you know I can't do anything about it I can't change it move on to the next thing um yeah I had I had a bunch of flat tires in Maui as well and you know riding along the dark and I was trying to figure out because I knew my crew was behind me on one of my when I I had a flat because they just swap out wheels, which was really, really handy. But I was like, how are they going to see me?

It's in the dark. So I lay my bike down and faced it towards the road so they might see my bike light. And they didn't like that because they're like, oh, my God, I thought you'd fallen off. And I'm like freaking out. I'm like, it's okay. So, yeah.

But I remember someone said, you know, you're lucky if you get sleep in Maui. Like that's, you know, it basically lucky if you get sleep in Maui. Like that's, you know, it basically doesn't happen. I didn't see the inside of the hotel room like, you know, you didn't either on day three. No, day three we saw. And that was my, for Maui, that was my big thing was I have to sleep. Yeah. Like I was like, I don't think you understand.

Like today's the day that, so when I got off the bike, I remember looking at Mike and I said, am I going to sleep? He goes, not if you had a run like you did yesterday. And I was like, oh, no, done. Done. I was like, oh, no. I was like, that was it. I was like, oh, my head is on a pillow tonight. Right.

Yeah. So for people that are listening, you know, it's daunting the prospect of attempting to do five Ironmans in a row. And then you add in getting from island to island. It makes it all the more difficult. But I think what perhaps is underappreciated is the logistics and the travel. That's really as challenging. It's like once you're on your bike, you're like, okay, I'm good. It's like all that other stuff that's super taxing. And it's really a challenge in sleep deprivation as much as anything else.

When we did it, we flew, like we had a bunch of night flights, but the only night flight you guys had was off of Kauai, right? And then all the other flights were in the morning. So you'd get up in the morning. Yes. So you'd get up in the morning, you'd have to fly to the next island and then go right into doing an Ironman after you've been on an airplane and you've been traveling and you're schlepping gear around and all that kind of stuff. Yeah. So starting the race was literally dependent on, and it was the craziest thing in the world to not be able to drink. So it was like, okay, wait a minute, you're about to go do an Ironman,

but you can't bring any water through security. And we got to Molokai and there was no water. There was no water problems or anything. Well, there's nothing on Molokai. There was nothing. I'm thirsty. I'm like, I need to eat. I need something. Where am I going to... And it was against the whole idea of the minute you finish your long training, you should refuel, you should rest, you should put your legs up, you should take an ice bath. All that stuff was done. All the stuff I did in training, all the recovery drinks, everything gone. You were eating whatever you could whenever you could. Exactly. I remember when Jason and I finished the first one in Kauai and we were like, literally the plane was taking off and we're trying to get through security and

we're still on our bike kits and everything. And we're like schlepping our gear, we're like yelling and wait, you know, like trying to get it through. And we had all this performance nutrition, liquid performance nutrition, like FRS and all this kind of stuff. And the guy's like, he's just pouring it out, like hundreds of dollars of like stuff for the whole week, you know? And unlike, so you guys had your husbands were crewing for you, right? Like you each had your own distinct crew. Yeah. Rebecca was basically crewing for Jason and I essentially by herself.

We had people that would show up on each island like who volunteered out of the kindness of their heart. Yeah, yeah. Really, Rebecca's trying to manage all of this like on her own, you know? And it was just, I mean, it was an unwinnable, you know, task. Which is, I mean, if the world is on fire, I want Rebecca like helping that. And people don't realize like the logistics. So for her just to be able to think on our feet in Molokai and come to us and not be dramatic about it and not be making a big deal, but just be like, hey guys, guess what? Like you need to just run.

Like you're going to need to run to the swim. People don't realize like what a value that is in a race director that not everybody can do that, that that's part of putting these events on, that if you didn't have somebody like her, like it wouldn't be happening. Like they just wouldn't be taking place. Yeah, I agree. Yeah, because we had one guy in Molokai whose bike didn't make the flight. So like, okay, we'll just do part of the marathon, you know, when it comes, then you can, you know, like after the swim. Yeah. And then there was a local who just rode

with him as well. Like, it's just things like that. I'm like, where, who else would do that? What other race would do that? Just to make sure everything possible. Who would think about that? Yeah. Everything possible is done so that you can be successful. You have to be malleable and adaptable. Absolutely. You can't be like, well, here's my race plan and this is how it has to go. It's like within an hour of beginning, that just goes out the window. And some variable gets thrown at you that you're going to have to contend with. And I think that's as much about what that event is about as just covering the distances.

Yeah. You're not going to be successful. If you are black and white and you can't operate in anything outside of, well, this was what my plan was, then you're not going to be successful. Yeah, you're going to crumble. It will crush you. And that's the part where just being able to adapt and being able to just do whatever and being able to eat this food that you've never had before because somebody gave it to you

and you just have to realize you just have to go with it. Yeah. Oh, I got a flat and I don't know where my crew is and there's no cell service and like, what am I going to do? There's no aid stations. There's nothing. There's nothing. There's nothing. But still remaining, like the attitude part is important. And that's, I think the difference between people who are successful and people will be like, well, what does it take? And it's not just the training, but I'm like, you just, you've got to be grateful. I mean, you have to focus on the fact that this is an opportunity and it's a privilege and the fact that you're here and you're able to do this and you're motivated enough and people care enough about you, like you're, it's, it's a privilege. So don't be out there whining and complaining with a bad attitude because you're not going to make it. Yeah. And that really gets tested because when you compound the level of

fatigue with the sleep deprivation, you're not operating at your full capacity to be able to manage everything emotionally. Yeah. So my goal was not to complain. Were you successful? Yeah. Rebecca, is she telling the truth? She is. She is. I didn't complain. There's a picture of me stuck on the side of the road.

I complained a lot. You did? Did you? I was a baby. I had a couple, like Rebecca could tell you. I mean, I talked about them in the book. I was trying to be as honest about that as possible. I had several moments where I thought I was going to break,

and I just was a baby. I was an immature baby because I was so exhausted. It was really the sleep deprivation as much as anything else. Oh, no. I hallucinated. I saw people coming out. I saw cats. I saw animals. I thought a woman was racing me on the last day because she was just walking. And I was like, what is she doing out here? Why is she racing me? Doesn't somebody needs to tell her that this is my fifth day out here? She was real. She was real. Oh, right. Okay. Oh no. I saw a lot of people. The cows were talking to me as I was going along. Yeah. Yeah. They were encouraging me. It was amazing. Yeah. I think probably for me, like 90% of the time I was on top of the world. I was like, I can't believe I'm doing this. doing this like this is you know i think it was like two three years i decided to do it before i

actually was there and like this is amazing like i had a couple little moments you know i call my princess moments where you kind of have a little mental breakdown just for you know those brief few minutes and then you're like all right yep sorted let's continue on that's it's fine yeah and i always associate that with food i i think i need to eat more, so I just eat something else. I'm like, okay, I feel good now, so keep going. And no matter how much you eat, you're going to be running a caloric deficit. Yeah, you're waking up hungry every morning. And you just have to be eating constantly.

Even in moments when you're not hungry, you're always eating for six hours. What's going to be happening six hours from now, tomorrow? Staying on top of that is super important. Yeah, my mantra was I had to eat for day five. I had to eat enough to get myself to day five to be able to then finish it. Yeah, that was always in my mind all the time. And my crew actually wrote down what I ate and I was showing to people, they're like, oh, my God.

Well, but then on – So you could like look at it at the end and realize... Yeah, I looked at it afterwards. Yeah. What happened to me, I don't know if this happened to you guys, was that I thought like, oh man, by the end of this thing, I'm going to be, I will have lost like 15 pounds. Like there's just no way around it. Yeah.

But actually I got progressively more and more bloated. Yes. And I felt like super, you know, it's the combination of inflammation and also your body trying to hold on to everything because it thinks you're trying to kill it. And then like 10 days after Epic Five was over, like all the weight went away

and I got like super emaciated all of a sudden. It was like, oh, we're safe now. Like now we don't need to hold on to everything. The man-liner stopped chasing me. It was weird. My coach told me that was going to happen. And I was like, there's no way. And that's exactly what happened. Yeah. I think I had issues with access to food. Like when we finished, it was like, all right, now what do we eat? And they're like, there was nothing. There just wasn't. I was surprised how I greatly underestimated the access to food and just thought that we would go to these airports and we'd be able to grab food.

Yeah, no, no, no. And it wasn't like that. No. Rebecca with the Thai food. Sorry. I was like, I kind of went after you in the book about that. Because I was like, Thai food again? This terrible, greasy, horrible Thai food. But it was like, that was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, think it was, I was so hungry. And it was this volunteer, Scott,

he handed me, what was it? Musabi? The spam sushi? Sushi that was made with spam in it. That sounds hearty. And I had no idea what it was, but when I ate it, it tasted so good because it was so salty. And I kept eating it. And I was like, oh, this is amazing. This is so good. Thank you. So then in Kona, my crew found some wasabi, and they gave it to me. And I was like, what is this garbage? This is horrible. And they were like, you just ate it yesterday, and you loved it.

I'm like, oh, well, that was yesterday. Today, my tastes have totally changed. I don't like it anymore. Molokai is a really special place. Who is that guy who lived there who rode with us? Will. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Will. Did he ride with you guys?

He's like the tour guide par excellence. If you can believe this, Will's parents live in the same town that I'm from. Really? We know the same people. Oh, wow. Wow. This is the cool story about Will. He told me that he had been out every single year since the race started, right? And the year that I was there, he brought his daughter. And she was what, maybe eight or nine years old. She met us at the airport. The first thing she does is run up to me and start asking me a million questions. And he was like, I'm really sorry. And I was like, why are you apologizing? He was like, my daughter is so excited that you're here. She's never seen a woman do the race. So when I was doing the run and I was putting my fuel bed on, what's that? What are those bottles for? What are you going to do this? I mean, she was just fascinated with everything.

And I got so overwhelmed. And when all of our bikes were lined up and he was like, oh, that's probably not her bike because of the gearing. I didn't have as many gears as the other guys. And then he was like, when you came up and that was your bike, I was trying to explain to my daughter, like, that's a girl riding a bike with really big gears. And it was so overwhelming. And then to find that connection, it was the coolest thing. And I told Rebecca initially that I didn't want him to ride with me. I was like, no, I don't want to ride with him. She was like, no, this is your island that he said he's going to ride with you and it's going to be Will. And I'm like, no, it's okay. I don't, what if I don't like him? What if he talks to me? What if he messes me up?

I don't really want to ride with anybody. And then it ended up being perfect. Like we had that connection. We knew all the same people in Atlanta. It was so cool. That's wild. Yeah. That's wild.

It was awesome. Well, Molokai is such a unique place. And it was my favorite island because it's the purest. It is as close to its natural state of any of the Hawaiian islands. I mean, one stoplight, right? Barely any people live there. More churches per capita than anywhere like on planet earth because of the leper colony. That's what it's most known for. And just super weird and diverse and strange, you know, from the kind of abandoned developments. You know, they've worked so hard to prevent hotels and resorts from being there.

And there was like a big fight over that one side of the island where now there's kind of like half built buildings, but you know, it's still, it's, it's so quiet and I don't know, there's something I think really cool about that place. Yeah, but it's so quiet. And I don't know, there's something, I think, really cool about that place. Yeah, it was kind of neat. And of course, I wanted to ask a lot of questions and learn. But we saw people wearing shirts like, keep Hawaiian Hawaiian. And I wanted to know all about that. So we learned about it. But then the people were so nice to us. It was like they understood you're just visitors and you're here doing this thing and then you're going to leave and you're not going to leave trash anywhere and you're going to be nice to us so we're not going to be mean to you.

Yeah. So it was really cool. It was so funny going past some locals and they're just kind of looking at you going, what are you doing? Like what's actually going on here? I would have thought everybody would know because like the fact that anything was happening there. Like, oh my God, something's happening. We all have to like show. Like what's happening here?

Well, when we went, I mean, it was like half the town showed up. Like all these kids came out and ran with us and all the teachers from the high school. And who are those kids? The Akona kids. Like there was like one teenager and his younger brother who came out and ran like through the night with us while their parents drove next to. I mean, it was really something special. That's cool. Yeah, because they were like, wow, there's something cool happening.

Everybody turned up to support us. That's really cool. Which was really awesome. And now that it goes back every year, I would have thought it just every year was more and more. Well, we had the local volunteers because I had a guy that just happened to be there that was in medical school that was from there. And it was just these random people with these random stories like, oh, yeah, I know this race happens every year, and I just happen to be here. So I'm going to run the whole thing with you. And I'm in medical school and I live in New Jersey, but I grew up

here. And I'm like, where did these people come from? And he did the whole Ironman? He did the whole run. He stayed out on the whole run with me. He was a runner and it was just so, he was a kid. I mean, he was just in his first year of medical school. It was just so awesome. Yeah. Mel, what about you? Yeah, like I had three people in my crew. And so like they'd all just taken interns running along. Because there was 10 of us in the year that I did it last year. So it wasn't as kind of small and intimate as well. So Danny, when you did it, there were four.

But one person dropped out after the first day, right? Yeah. So there was only three of us. So if volunteers were showing up, they were four, but one person dropped out after the first day, right? Yeah. So there was only three of us. So if volunteers were showing up, they were really, yeah, it was a really kind of one-on-one experience for sure with the volunteers. Yeah. With 10 people. Yeah, we didn't-

You were taking over the whole island for sure. Yeah, we really were. Wow. Right. Yeah. So we didn't really have so much of all the locals coming in and doing a lot of stuff. It was more, yeah, we were just kind of managing it ourselves. But it was cool because like my crew, you know, when they come and run with me, then they tell me stories about what their day had been like. Cause I'm like, well,

you know, let's, let's chat. You know, I haven't seen you, like you've been passing me stuff all day, but I haven't had time to talk to you. Um, and they were saying they were constantly getting questions for like every Island, people coming and going. So what's this, what's going on, what's happening. And yeah, they found that really, really fun. Yeah. That's cool. Yeah. Oahu is interesting because you have to deal with the congestion. It's such a contrast to Molokai. Yes. I just remember trying to just get out of Waikiki and Honolulu. It took forever. And then you're on the other side of the island. It's beautiful. It's pristine. But then kind of making your way back into Honolulu, it was like stoplight, stoplight, stoplight. And I just remember it just drained me.

I was like, is this bike ride ever going to end? I just want to ride and finish it. But because of traffic and just the urban metropolis, it took so much longer. So Rebecca, was the bike course the same? No, we changed it. Oh, you changed it. Oh, you changed it. Okay, that's cool. Yeah, yeah, because that was a problem. But is the marathon course still out on that highway? Yeah, you run up Diamond Head. Right. I had Chet the Jet with me. Oh, we had

Chet. Chet never stops. He did the whole thing with me. I was like, that was my treat. That was my big Oahu treat was having Chet with me the whole time. So explain who Chet the Jet is. So Chet the Jet is- I met his- This guy is a world-class character. He really is. And I have to tell you, as somebody who grew up in Georgia, and we go to Hawaii, and we're new to ultras, and Jason's doing this triple Ironman, and we land in Hawaii, and I'm training for a 400-mile bike ride across Florida. I'm trying to break this record. And just here shows up this guy, Chet, with his bike.

Like, hey, take this bike. Go ride this bike. And I'm like, what? Like, who are you? Where did you come from? And then he just starts telling me he's, I mean, just a legend. Double decker finisher. Played 100 hours of tennis nonstop for charity once.

I mean, if there's something that Chet is going to, if there's a way to spin it, but in the most humble way. I mean, not because he wants you to know that he's Chet and he's done these incredible things, but because he truly is like that hungry just to figure out what all he can do. Yeah. It's kind of like, he's kind of like Jack LaLanne, a little bit like that. And I don't know if you noticed, but when he sends emails or posts on Facebook, he does it in all caps with lots of exclamation points, no matter what he's saying. But that's how he is. And I told him, I was on the phone with him one day and I'm like, Chet, I always think you're yelling at me because you're posting the cap lock.

I was like, you got to stop with the cap locks, man. That's his thing. But he's so funny and he's just so awesome. And his his wife speaks very little English, and they have this awesome relationship. And I'm like, how do you guys even talk? He's like, you know, universal body language. He's just so cool. And so going there and having him, like having met him, and then I went and crewed him down in Florida at a Double Ironman. Oh, you did?

Cool. And being able to kind of keep that connection up and then having him. It was like we never skipped a beat. Like when I saw him, I hadn't seen him in two or three years. But it was like that was it. Like we just – he talked the whole time. We told stories. Like we were best friends and talked on the phone every day.

That's awesome. It's cool. Chet's very special. He came up and said hi and said that he'd met you the year before. Yeah, I was like, make sure you go find Mel and go talk to Mel. And he run with you as well? No, no. I had my crew who

were running with me. Yeah. Yeah. We just came out to say hi and yeah. Yeah. It was fun. Yeah. I just remember a whole bunch of people from the Hurt team, like the Hawaiian, you know, ultra runner crew that live on Oahu, like turned up and it was like a weeknight, you know, and we didn't start until, I think it was, it was definitely dark when we started running that day. I can't remember exactly what time. It wasn't that late. But I was like, all right, they'll run five or six miles. And then they all have jobs or whatever.

And it was like, no, a couple of them peeled off. But most of them ran the entire marathon with us that night, just on a weeknight. That's so cool. Just because or whatever. And Chet was right there. That's what Chet did. And we finished late, like 2 o'clock in the morning or something, one or two. And I was like, do you have to go to work tomorrow? And he's like, yeah. I mean, I'm like, it's like a Tuesday. I'm like, do people not go

to... And he's like, oh, no, it's cool. I'm going to work. That's just run a random marathon in the middle of the night on a weekday and go to work. But that's just totally – that's the kind of people that you meet. Like that's – these are the people that are out there, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's sort of surreal to be like running through Waikiki with all those shops and everything like that after being in the more remote areas of the other islands. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That was really funny running down, you know, Waikiki Beach with all these people, you know,

all these tourists and all these people. Because it was in the afternoon, the sun was shining, the beach was pumping, and we're like running along doing a marathon. And there was all these tourists. And no one knows. No. That's kind of what's awesome about it is that like no one even knows what you're doing. They have no idea.

And the tourist on Diamond Head, they had all these like people stopping and taking pictures. We're like, excuse me, excuse me. It was so fun. Yeah, right. Really. People just, no clue. No clue. And really the strategy with all of this is you don't want to go too hard, right?

Because there's no reason to overly deplete yourself. Like the flight's still going to leave when the flight's going to leave. So it's sort of, I call it like persistent conservation. Like you want to keep moving. You don't want to go too fast and overly exert yourself unnecessarily. Yet the longer you're out there, the longer you're out in the heat and the less sleep you're going to get. So you're like trying to balance these things to try to maximize the amount of rest you're going to be able to get without kind of tipping too far into overexertion mode.

So how did you like gauge that for yourselves? I found on day one it was really hard and I didn't know. I just kept going, especially on the run because that's what's going to beat you up. I was like I want to run and walk and I didn't know. I just kept going, especially on the run, because that's what's going to beat you up. You know, I was like, I want to run and walk. And I did the run walk from the whole, the very first marathon, but I was like, you know, I feel okay. I probably could run a little bit faster, but I don't want to. And I was like, and I was always questioning. I'm like, I know I'm going to get through this. I'm not going to do it. That was never a doubt in my mind, but it was how I was going to do it. And it wasn't until I woke up on day two and my body just felt

like I'd been out doing a normal training day as I was doing, you know, I'd been out, you know, riding and running for eight hours or whatever and I just had that level of fatigue and I was like, oh, okay, yeah, I've got this. That's fine. And that's when I had that, okay, now I know how to do this and how to get through this. Yeah, but it wasn't until that point.

And that was a concern and no one that I was able to talk to would have an answer because, but it wasn't until that point. And that was a concern. And no one that I was able to talk to would have an answer because they didn't know what I could do. So it was like, I don't understand. And they hadn't done it themselves. Yeah, I mean, I could have asked Daddy, but she doesn't, you know, we're very different people in terms of like pacing and things. So it's like you just have to figure it out. Because you don't know.

No, no, you don't know. Yeah. I was fortunate, in hindsight kind of fortunate. So mile 46, I cracked a rim on my bike. So I ended up spending like an hour and a half off the bike on the first day. So it was a lesson in patience because I ended up getting past. So I'm a lot stronger cyclist than anything else. So it's unusual for me, even in a field where I'm with men, it would be unusual for me to be not kind of up there with them.

So that was the whole deal with me in the first two islands because in Oahu I spent maybe two hours off the bike. And to leave your little bike computer on and see it go down to like 11 miles an hour. And I was only at the halfway point. And I remember Rebecca saying, like, you can't get back on the bike at the halfway point. And I remember Rebecca saying like, you can't get back on the bike and hammer it. Like, I know that you can, but you can't. And she was completely right. Like I had to just be, it was a huge ego check, like a huge, I am capable of going faster, but I can't. And I shouldn't. Because you have to have the long-term goal in mind. Right. And the fact that I've been off the bike for an hour and a half or two hours, I was like,

just use this as an opportunity to eat food and to rest and to hydrate and just be patient. It was patience. It's okay. Just sit here. And on Kauai, I mean, there's one bike shop, right? Yeah. And so if you break down, I remember we broke down and we didn't have cell service. Do you remember that? And just like stranded forever. Like I broke my cable

and it was like, how do I even let anyone know that? It's like, yeah, you're sitting there on the side of the road forever. You feel helpless and you're like, the clock's ticking and you're like, that airplane's still going to leave. Like, I got a long way to go today. Yeah. It was, it was really rough. And, um, you know, my husband and I are pretty fairly like intense people in terms of like, um, times of the essence. And he's very much like a hurry up, hurry up, hurry up kind of person. So in Kauai, it was interesting because ultimately we ended up borrowing a wheel from the person that ended up dropping, um, which was amazing because if it wasn't for that, then I wouldn't have finished. But borrowing that wheel meant I needed a new chain.

So we had to wait for the mechanics. And it was just very different in terms of... And then in Oahu, it was kind of like somebody that lived on the island put something in their mailbox that I needed. I don't even remember what it was. And they were like, oh yeah, we're going to drive to this guy's house and grab it from the mailbox. We'll be back in like an hour. And my husband's like, an hour? Right. Like, you can't get there any faster? And it's, I'm like, you don't understand.

Like, it's different here. Yeah, it's island time. This island is island time. Yeah. So there's no such thing as like, he's like Marine Corps mentality. Like, come on, come on, come on, come on. And I'm like, these people aren't going to move any faster. Like, this is what they're doing. You just got to chill out. And you are able, I mean, you strike me as a very intense person. Totally.

So Rebecca told me that you showed up with like a three inch binder of all your prep for the race. Yeah. You had the whole thing dialed, right? Like you're attacking this like a Navy SEAL. Everything. Well, I, it is comforting to me. Mel's laughing. Mel is not like that, right? I'm organized, but I'm not that. It's comforting to me. There's so many things that I can't control. And the only thing that I can control is how organized I am. And so it provides like a level of comfort to me to be organized. So like the minute the race was over, I downloaded it.

I typed everything up. I typed up all these notes of all the stuff that I did wrong, all the things that I would have changed, because I want to help other people. And then when Mel contacted me, she was like, well, what would you do different? I'm like, well, let me share this three-page document with you of every mistake I made. But it's like- And you're like, whoa. I'm like, okay. What me share this three-page document with you of every mistake I made. But it's like- And you're like, whoa. What am I doing? Don't do any of that. I was like, this is what you don't want to do. But yeah, I had gallon bags, and I had literally everything labeled, like day one swim, day one bike, day one run. Because you

want to set your crew up for success. I had instructions. This is the kind of stuff, don't coddle me. Don't tell me I'm doing great. If I'm not, don't call me sweetheart, don't be nice to me, just be forceful. Because those are the type of instructions. If I'm crewing somebody, I want to know everything. I want to know that you don't want to talk or that you like to talk or that you don't like vanilla gels. Those are the types of instructions. So yeah, oh yeah, I will totally show up and be like,

but then I also showed up with a unicorn and try to get everybody to take pictures with my unicorn. So I have two different sides. And well, your husband knows what you need and don't need. And there's a shorthand there, of course. And I think what's maybe interesting for people that are listening that aren't familiar with this world is when you're doing these crew-supported events, it's incredibly challenging

for the crew members. You think, oh, we're just driving behind them in a van. It's really, really hard work. It's very intense. And you're dealing with somebody who's trying to do something amazing. And you want to serve that person. But what comes out of their mouth and what you should do are often two different things. So you have to really understand what's going to serve the athlete, not what they're asking for. Because what they're asking for may not be what they actually need. Like they'll say, I'm not hungry. I'm not going to eat.

And you have to force them to eat and make sure they understand they need to eat. Like they'll say, I'm not hungry, I'm not going to eat, and you have to force them to eat and make sure they understand they need to eat. And all of those cues are important to keep in mind, especially for new people who are crewing who don't really know what they're in for. Yeah, absolutely. I had a funny story. When I was in Maui, my shoes weren't fitting properly. Like my feet had swollen and my little toes were just a blister. Like I had no toes left.

It was ridiculous. All of them? and my little toes were just a blister. Like I had no toes left. It was ridiculous. All of them? Just my little toes. And then I had a blister on the inside of my other foot, which ended up being like a pressure sore. So that was pretty bad. But I had two pairs of shoes and I'd convinced myself that one of them didn't fit and I wanted to try the other one on. Same size, nothing different.

And my husband's like, no, no, they're the same. I'm like, no, no, I want to put the other shoes on. He's like, okay, fine. It's like just path of least, they're the same. I'm like, no, no. I want to put the other shoes on. He's like, okay, fine. It's like just path of least resistance. That's hilarious. Just do it, yeah. But I think they have a harder job than the athletes every time. Like the crews are just amazing.

It's totally selfless, and it is really difficult. And when I was in Kona, it never rains on the side of the island. Poured rain the entire marathon. On the Kona coast? Yeah. Oh, it did? Poured rain. It never rains on the side of the island. Poured rain the entire marathon. On the coast? Yeah. Oh, it did? Poured rain. It never rains on this side of the island. And I kept wanting to change my shoes and socks. And my husband was like, it doesn't matter. It's pouring rain. You're

running through puddles. And I was like, I have blisters. He was like, it's the last day. Who cares? You just have to keep going. And I listened to him. He could say that where other people might let me stop and change. And then five miles later, I would have been in the exact same situation. I want to stop and change my shoes and socks. So you have to have somebody who knows you enough to kind of push back when you... Because you almost, you start acting almost like an infant. It's almost like children who lack judgment, where you have to make the decisions for them because they have impaired functioning. have impaired functioning. Like it's almost like that's how you are when you race, like your brain's not working right. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

How did you guys feel on the last day? I was so excited. That was party day for me. Yeah. I was like, I've got here, I'm finishing this. Yeah. Cause like up until that stage, it was, you know, anything can go wrong. Anything can break anything, you know, something can happen that will completely derail you and you won't be able to finish. And so in my mind, the whole time I'm like, get to day five, get to day five, and then it's fine. Then, you know, you're there and life will be amazing. And yeah, it really, it really was. Um, it was really, really fun. I absolutely loved day five. Um, yeah, I had a couple of naps along the way, which was awesome. Cause I said to my crew beforehand, cause my, my old coach, he passed away, but Craig Percival, when he did that.

Yeah. I wanted to talk to you about that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So when he did the eight in Australia, the eight Ironmans, he would have power naps and that really re-energized him and helped him. So I thought about that and I'm like, okay, I'm going to do that if I feel like I'm going to fall asleep. And I was on the Queen K and I started seeing dots in front of my eyes and I could see on the bike I was actually swerving and I'm like, I'm going to run into a car. I'm just going to accidentally just swerve into a car. So I pulled up to my crew and they're like, what are you doing?

I'm like, I need a nap. So they just put me in the front seat. I put my feet up on the dashboard, lay the seat down and just slept for 15 minutes, got back on the bike. I'm like, all right, good now. And then kept going. And yeah, like, you know, I just, I just hung out and took my time. Like, yeah, there's a Facebook video when I'm at the turnaround at Harvey and I'm, you know, sitting down in the car, just eating chips, you know, having a chat, my brothers, you know, talking shit on Facebook, you know, sending all these random messages and yeah, like, you know, like what you were doing, like hallucinating and, you know, just all over the place. But I just had so much fun.

And it was one of those times, like the end was really emotional for me. Like I could feel Craig's presence there. And just, I just became really overwhelmed with the fact that all of these people were here to support me. Like, you know, I had three people fly over from Australia to come over there. I'm like, who does that? Who flies, you know, gets on a plane for me? Like there was no other reason. Like they were having their own holidays and everything else, but that was the reason they were there at that time.

And it was just that whole, you know, experience about that. And, yeah, like there wasn't many people who weren't crying at that time when I finished. But, yeah, that was just amazing. And I still can recapture that feeling just talking about it now. I just feel like I just take myself right back there and it's, yeah, it was amazing. So explain who Craig Percival was.

Craig was an amazing man. He was a huge personality in the Australian triathlon world basically. When I met him, he was working for Blue, well, around Blue 70 and doing a lot of wetsuits and, you know, like he helped me get into my wetsuit before a race that I was doing and he would do it for anybody. You just walk up to him and go, oh, can you help me? And he'd just like put it on properly and be like, oh, amazing,

and then, you know, go off. And, yeah, so he had started his own coaching business. He had owned Aqua Shop, which was like a bathing suit, a bathing company and like wetsuits and, you know, like everything. And he was like the go-to person about everything that. And he was married to, well, yeah, his wife, Lyndall, and two kids. A beautiful, beautiful family, absolutely amazing. So, yeah, he had done Ultraman Canada the year before. and two kids, a beautiful, beautiful family, absolutely amazing.

So, yeah, he had done Ultraman Canada the year before I did it. So I met up with him and he's like, hey, when you're ready to talk, you know, I'll tell you everything that you need to know about the whole event and everything. So that was amazing. He was a really, really good resource for me for that as well. And then he came over to Hawaii and did the year after, I can't remember what year that was. Ultraman World Championships. Yeah. Yeah. At least once, right? Yeah, he did. Yeah, he did once. He did two Ultramans because then when the rest of us had done two, we're like,

well, come on, Craig, got to do another one now. Like, what are you doing? It's slacking off. And so then he actually co-race directed Ultraman Australia for a couple of, yeah, yeah. So he brought Ultraman Australia out with another guy, Tony, in 2005 was the first year that they did that. So, yeah, like he was big, like everybody knew him, you know, he couldn't walk anywhere at a race without, you know, stopping and dropping to a lot of people. Right, legend, absolute legend in the multi-sport community in Australia. Yeah.

And like beloved by everyone. Absolutely, absolutely. So after he did Ultraman Hawaii, he was like, okay, so what else can I do? So he created his own event, which was eight in eight in eight. So it was eight Ironmans in eight different states of Australia in eight days. And, yeah, like he had a hell of a time doing that as well.

Yeah. And, you know, he had timelines of having to do, like, you know, 11-hour Ironmans to get on a plane to get to the next state because Australia is huge. Right. And to be able to... It's not a puddle jumper flight from one little island to the next. No.

Not at all. Yeah. It's hours, hours of flying. Yeah, so then after he did that, then he was having problems with his knee and he wasn't able to run and he was like really struggling. So he went in and had surgery on it and then subsequently as a result of that surgery had a blood clot that he ended up dying from. So, yeah, he was in intensive care for about a week

before he ended up passing away. How old was he? He was in his 40s. Yeah. Yeah, I can't remember exactly how old. So it was incredibly sudden as well and you know like a fit healthy guy then suddenly you know in intensive care in a coma and never waking up it was yeah it was just devastating yeah yeah so that was december um 2016 right so he was coaching you at the time. Yeah. Yeah. And you're six months out from doing Epic Five.

Yes. Yeah. So there was, there was a few of us who were doing, I was doing Epic Five and then others were doing Ultraman Australia and all around the same time of year in May. And so we're all just talking to each other, just going, what do we do? Like, you know, it's kind of one of those things. I'm like, I also, I need to be selfish and think about myself and what I need at this point in time, but also be respectful about, you know, it was such a kind of a balance and a juggle that we're all really, I know I was kind of struggling with. Like feeling guilty for thinking about like, well, how do I train for this race right now? Yeah, exactly. And I mean, we all knew that Craig wouldn't want us to give up on our dreams and,

you know, he would really want us to continue and not stop, but it's like, okay, so then what, what do we do? Like how, you know, where do I go from here? Because he was, I'd only like, I'd known him for years, but I'd started with him at the start of that year. So I'd had him for about a year and I didn't want to go back to my old coach and I was just kind of a bit stuck in limbo at that time. So then how does Kate come in? So I contacted her. So yeah, I'm coached by Kate Bevilacqua now. And she's amazing. I sent her a message and I said, look, this is where I'm at. This is the event that I've got. I was coached by Craig. He's obviously passed away. So are you able to help me? And she was amazing. She just,

we had a chat over Skype and she's like, yeah, yeah, I can help you. That's fine. Yeah, no worries. And then just started training with her. And it's worked out really well. She thinks I'm absolutely crazy. And I'm like, yeah, that's fine. And she won Ultraman one year, right? Yes. I can't remember what year it was.

A couple of years ago, I think. I can't remember. Yeah. Yeah, no, she won it. And she did because Ultraman Canada was rebranded and so she won that outright. Like she beat everybody in the field. So I was like, well, someone with that pedigree, they, well, I mean,

I don't care if you're not, you know, amazing at what you do, but you understand ultra racing. And that was a big thing that I wanted in a coach. Yeah, so that's why I reached out to her. And I said to her, I'm like, I'm talking to a few other people. I really wasn't. But I was like, just in case you say no, I'll kind of just, you know, I've got other options. But yeah, no, she was totally cool about it.

So that was really good. What do you guys think is the biggest difference between, you know, how you prepare for and race like a marathon or an Ironman? I mean, there's a lot of people listening who've dipped their toe in some kind of race or another. What's the difference between like mindset-wise and experience-wise between those traditional types of races and, say, Epic 5, RAM, which we haven't even talked about yet, which you did, these multi-day, super ultra experiences? I think the difference is that my coach and I have a joke that there's people that do executive-level training. So he's got his doctors and his attorneys that require an executive level training plan, which is the bare minimum to finish an event. And there are

things that you can just get up and get off the couch and train a little bit and you can do them. You'll make it through. And you're going to make it through. And then these events, you cannot do that. You cannot show up without a certain level of preparation or you absolutely will not finish. And if you, and it's not to say you don't respect the distance, but the other, you know, the other aspect that I think, not just the physical part, it places a lot of strain on every part of your life, your relationship, your job. So you've really got to be in a good place. If you don't have a good support system in terms of your family, your partner, you know, it's all that's just going to become bigger and bigger and bigger. So if your friends are giving you a hard time because you're missing out on stuff every weekend and you're overcome by the guilt of missing out on yet another birthday party or something, like it's just that stuff will kind of like eat at you versus people saying, hey, I know you're about to go in a hole and I'll see you in six months. I often tell people, you know, what's going on

in your life at this time? And they're like, oh, you know, my mom's sick. You know, I've got this going on, like work's really busy. I'm like, maybe wait. You know, you need your life sorted at that point in time, as much as you can. I mean, obviously you can't control everything, which, you know, that's fine. But if there's big things that are happening, you know, you're planning a wedding, maybe that's big enough as it is. Yeah. Maybe wait. I think for me in terms of the mindset stuff is I like the point where you're not wanting to go any further. Like when you get to that point of, you know, this is really hard. This I'm really starting to struggle here. I find that's where my race starts. Like that's where my enjoyment really peaks because you have to push through and you have to find a way just

to continue on. And then when it gets really, really hard, I'm like, yep, that's the sweet spot for me. And what have those moments taught you? Like how do you carry those forward into other aspects of your life? I guess that I, I mean, for me, it's that I don't stop. Like I, I grew up as a very, very stubborn child, as my parents tell me, and I've kind of turned that into a mental strength. And so I guess, I mean, in my world, in my job, I'm a mental health nurse. So anything that is incredibly stressful is like, you know, that's really intense point. You know, that's like, we're talking about, you know, somebody was saying before, you know, that's really intense point. You know, it's like we're talking about, you know, somebody was saying before, you know, if no one's trying to commit suicide,

if no one's beating each other up, if no one's, you know, intimately going to die, it's okay, we can deal with this. And so I think I have that attitude in all of aspects of my life. Yeah. So I think that, you know. My husband's a sniper on the SWAT team.

Is he? Yeah. So if people aren't trying to kill us. We're like, are people in trees? No, we're good. This is no big deal. And I work in healthcare too. That's like the David Goggins perspective.

Exactly. Exactly. And I work with end of life. So I'm with people, whether they're old or not, I am working with people in the end of their lives. So for me, what it's taught me is I am comfortable being uncomfortable. And I tell people, I'm the kind of person that could walk around all day with a rock in my shoe and never take it out. And people aren't like that. So I'm willing to have those uncomfortable conversations with my patients.

I'm willing to do. And in your work, that's, you can go places with people and not feel uncomfortable. And that's every, so in every single day, I do something I don't want to do every day, whether it's having a conversation, because practice, I mean, practice is what you have to do. And the more often that you do it, it just teaches you that discipline. So that if every single day I do something, whether it's having a conversation with an employee about a performance issue that I don't want to have that conversation, but I have to have it, it just teaches me I can do things I don't want to do.

And that's part of being an adult. And I can be uncomfortable. And I don't always have to be comfortable. And it's OK. Yeah. Getting comfortable with discomfort, having the willingness to face and confront those uncomfortable situations and scenarios, it's a muscle just like anything else, right? And I know that that's what makes me feel alive. And it also gives you the strength to tackle more and more difficult challenges, not just physical

challenges, but emotional challenges, professional challenges, difficult challenges, not just physical challenges, but emotional challenges, professional challenges, relationship challenges, like anything that life throws at you. Right. Right. And it's just, I mean, it's a resiliency thing. Like it's just a resiliency thing. And, you know, there's kind of a joke at work that I'm kind of like a cockroach, like the world can come to a nuclear end and here I am just going to be running around like a little cockroach that can never be... Because it's just... You're right. I mean, you always compare it to the experiences that you've had. So if you live in a higher stress environment or you work in a high stress environment, like my husband, nothing to him is that big of a deal because look at the work that he does.

So when people are like, gosh, Epic Five was so crazy. I'm like, you know what was really crazy? Taking two weeks off work. Epic Five was a vacation. You should have seen the work I had to come back to. That was a treat. That's nothing compared to what we do day in and day out. So it makes it, yeah, it just puts everything in perspective, for sure. Another thing I think, at least that I've found, is when you make that decision and you're like, okay, I'm going to take on this challenge, understanding the amount of time and energy and focus that's going to be demanded of you, that's going to be required of you in order to show up and be your best self for that particular challenge requires you to get super focused on what's important and what's not in your life. And anything extraneous sort of gets stripped away. It's like what you were talking about with your friends and birthday parties and things

like that. You do have to be in a good place in order to do that. But for me, it was almost not a cleansing, but a clarifying process of getting me closer to what is important to me and what's not. And what am I willing to sacrifice to accomplish a certain goal? And then you almost need that three-inch binder just to guide you through your life. Okay, like what's the decision tree today in order for me to get the things done that need to get done? And there's just not a lot of downtime for fucking around. Exactly. You know what I mean? So it makes you extremely, just the looming deadline or event date makes you

get extremely diligent in how you're managing your time throughout the day. Yeah, absolutely. Exactly. And I think, I had this experience recently with my coach. And I was in Hawaii and had planned all the logistics for he and his brother to race in Kona. And we were talking about how it's very difficult. He races. His brother's got cerebral palsy. So he swims with him and does a modified bike and pushes him on the run.

And we were having this conversation about all the media and stuff. And I said, every exchange that you have with someone, you're giving a piece of yourself away, whether you mean to or not, every time you talk to somebody. And if that's not a positive encounter or if it causes you anxiety or angst, you get chipped away. And then you feel depleted. And your training depletes you. So you have to be very cautious about the people that are in your life and how they

support you and what they need from you. Because you can't, if you're a problem solver or you're a person who's always trying to fix things for people and then you end up doing all this training and you can't, at some point you've got to back out of some of those other obligations. Yeah. You have to create healthy boundaries and the stakes are higher, right? So you don't have the bandwidth to kind of engage people in a way that ordinarily would be no big deal. Yep. Exactly. I'm really sorry I can't listen to your conversation on my way to work this morning about the argument you had with your husband over a pint of spilled blueberries.

I'm like, seriously, I don't give a shit. I can't waste energy. And for me, it's all about energy conservation. And I'm like, I can't be worried about that. When I did Ram, one of the girls in the crew, she had a tattoo on her finger that said, let it go. And so that's my thing is I do this and it's like, let it go. And it's like, just let it go. Who cares? Just let it go. So what was Ram like?

You were the, what's the accolade? You were the youngest female. The youngest two-person female team. Yeah. So we set the two-person female record in terms of speed and age. We were the youngest. How long did it take you? Eight days, two hours, and 35 minutes. I can't even imagine.

Yeah. It was pretty incredible. So what is that, like sleeping a half an hour a night? We did, so for 12 hours during the day, we did anywhere from like 10 to 30 minute pulls a piece. And so we did that for 12 hours. And then at night we did a three, three, three, three. So three hours on, three hours off, three hours on, three hours off. And our goal was to sleep for an hour and a half during that three hours, because that was also when we were doing like a full kit change, brushing our teeth. So the goal was to get like an hour and a half to two hours, but broken up into two segments.

So three hours a night total on average. Yes. Right. Yeah. And in between, it's essentially an eight-day interval workout. Correct. Yeah. Time trialing the rest of the time.

Oh, my God. Yep. Time trialing across the country. That's so hardcore. Yeah. What was the hardest part about that? Honestly, I think the hardest part was that we had a crew of 11 people and just managing the dynamics of the people with the crew and just being different and having to make sure that not worrying, like not trying to worry about how people were. My job is to ride a bike.

And like I can't be worried that you guys were arguing with each other. And we had these like radio pieces that they use where they can talk to you. And my husband and his brother, they argue. Like they argue all the time. And by the sixth or seventh day, they were arguing with each other. And every time they talked, it came in my earpiece. It was in your ear. And they were like, bro, bro, that's not the right turn.

Dude, dude, shut up. And finally, I just ripped it out. And I was like, I'm done. I can't listen to you guys anymore. I just need to ride my bike. So I think the dynamics, that was probably the hardest part, was that's a long time for people. And who was your partner? Her name's Casey Darden. Yeah. So she was my partner and I met her at Double Ironman.

Yeah. Yeah, in Atlanta. And she went out and crewed an eight-person, or she was part of an eight-person team that rode. And she came back, she was like, we can totally do this. And I was like, yeah, of course we can. So, I mean, we're... I'm trying to wrap my head around the whole process of going end-to-end across the entire country. I mean, what was the hardest terrain? Was it the super long flats through the middle of the country where you think it's never going to end? Is it going over the mountains? The Appalachians are definitely the hardest. Really?

So everybody talks about the Rockies and Colorado and all that, and that's great and everything, but nothing is compared to the Appalachians. And the good news is— Why is that? Because it's humid or because it's like the climbs are steeper? Because it's humid. The climbs are harder. The climbs are harder. The roads are windy.

You can't see what's around the corner. Like Colorado and the Rockies are just wide open. It's beautiful. The Appalachians, it's not like that. It's trees. It's just there's not the scenery to look at. The climbs are harder. It's disgustingly hot.

It's just so gross. And you're 600 miles from the finish. So you're 2,400 miles into the race. The good news is we have a place up in the Appalachian Mountains. So that's kind of our ground. That's what we train in. So you were ready for it. So we were more ready for that because we have such close access to it from Atlanta. Yeah, but that was definitely the hardest in terms of the terrain.

Was it a bigger sense of accomplishment doing that versus Epic Five or how do those two compare? I mean, there are apples and oranges, but. Epic Five was definitely, definitely a much, yeah. Yeah, RAM was incredible. And at the time I was like, it's going to be really hard to kind of top this, but Epic Five definitely topped that for sure. Yeah. And it was, it was,. And it was a lot harder. Logistically, we didn't have

stuff that went wrong. We had stuff that went wrong, but nowhere even remotely close to epic five. So paint a picture, each of you, for what a typical training week looks like so people can really understand what goes into this. Well, we were just having this hilarious conversation because I like to actually let myself get completely out of shape for things. Almost because I like the challenge of just being all the way back in shape. Yeah, how old are you now? I'm 37. It gets harder when you get too far away from it. I should be cautious about how I say out of shape.

Yeah, for you. Out of shape is a relative term, is a relative term. But when I am in shape or training for something, I mean, I typically will try to swim. I swim in a master's program Monday, Wednesday, Friday. When I was training, my heaviest training week for Epic Five was like 39 hours. So I did two back-to-back weeks of training. And that's just low intensity volume for the most part? For the most part. I would always-

30, 35 hours? 39. So I did a 38 hour one week and 39 the next. You're literally training basically seven hours a day. And I would do like at least 10 hours on the weekend. I would always like get up and swim masters, do a seven and eight hour ride. And then I would run for like two to three hours off the bike. So I was getting these huge blocks of training in and I would take Fridays off and do these big, like massive training blocks. And then like come Monday morning when you're exhausted, I would get up at 4.15 and go swim.

And did you experiment with sleep deprivation to acclimate to that, like waking up in the middle of the night and going to work out and stuff? Here is the great news. I do that already. Oh, you do? Last night, Mel's like, how are you still awake? And I was like, I don't sleep. I told her, I was like, I'm going to be up at 3 o'clock in the morning. And then I found a 24-hour cafe. So I don't sleep. She's like, I told her, I was like, I'm going to be up at 3 o'clock in the morning. And then I found a 24-hour cafe.

So I don't sleep very much, and that's the good news. But when I was training for Epic Five and I'd get really tired and I would go to sleep like at 9, I would wake up at 2 a.m. 100% awake. Right. And I would, yeah, just get up and go train. And it is a gift, and that's one of the things I think that makes me. But you know what? The gift of being able to fall asleep. Mel was like, oh, I fall asleep and I sleep. And two seconds later, she was dead asleep.

And I'm looking at her like, I was looking at her like, she really is going to sleep all night. Like, who are you? You sleep all night. I sleep and I wake up. And then she sleeps and she wakes up like a gazillion hours later. And she was like, that felt great. And I'm like, oh my gosh, I toss and I turn.

I don't sleep well. So I don't have to practice with sleep deprivation because that's kind of my life already, which makes me, I think, a little bit better to train to handle it when it comes to that. Mel, what's training look like? So I didn't do those bigger weeks. I think my biggest week was probably about 30 hours. And I would, because when I was training for Epic 5, I'd change jobs.

Yeah, so I was doing a Monday to Friday job. So that made it a lot easier because before that I was doing shift work. So I'd be doing like mornings, afternoons, night shifts. I did a really heavy block of training for Ultraman Australia when I was on night shift. And so that was my sleep deprivation training. That was, yeah, full on. I was not a nice person.

So you'd work all night and then catch a nap and then train? Yeah. Wow. And then go back to bed and have another nap and then go to work. Right. Yeah. So that was, yeah. That kind of prepped me going, well, if I can manage that, that's okay.

Because, I mean, I do sleep and I sleep like seven, eight hours a night, but I can nap as well. I can lie down on the couch, nap for half an hour, get up, go to work. Like it was, yeah, I'm a very good shift worker in that way, but I'd changed jobs and I was working Monday to Friday. So I could train before and after work every day. So my hours would probably be between about two to four hours a day, Monday to Friday. And then on the weekends, I do generally about seven, eight hour days on the weekends, every weekend. So where I live in Melbourne, I'm about a 45 minute drive away from some really good hills. I mean, my hills are not compared to what your hills are like. My longest hill, I could probably ride about seven Ks, but-

But Melbourne is great for cycling, right? Really good. It's like the cycling capital of Australia. Very much so. Yeah. So if I want to ride flat, I'm riding with thousands of cyclists every, you know, every weekend. If I want to ride hills, there's cyclists everywhere. And I go to places where there is cyclists because in the cars, I mean, there's, you know, people who don't like cyclists, but there's a lot of people who expect them. So then they drive a little bit differently and it's a little bit safer. That's the way I kind of look at it. Yeah. So I'd use the week, like during the week,

it'd be my, you know, do a bit of strength work, do a bit of speed work in all disciplines. So, you know, my Kate would get me to, you know, have a swim week, a bike week, a run week. So I'd have extra sessions on whatever the focus was that week. And on the weekends, it was always heavy bike. So, you know, like seven hours ride, one hour run off the bike. Because she's like, you have to be strong and fit in swim and bike. And then the run will just take care of itself. Like we won't focus so much on that. Because it's about getting to the run in best shape as you can.

Right. Then to get through that. Yeah, you can use the bike to develop that aerobic engine without all the load bearing. That running, you know. Yeah, absolutely. End ends up, you know, creating injuries and all sorts of other issues. Yeah. And I didn't have any injuries in my prep, so I was really lucky. Yeah. That's great. So when people come up to you and say, as invariably, I'm sure they do like, oh, I'd love to like do this or that, but like, I just don't have time.

Yeah. I say, I'm like, well, I make time. I never actually say I don't have time. Yeah. I say I'm like, well, I make time. I never actually say I don't have time. I'm like I have different priorities to you. And that's the way I kind of reframe it for people. People are like, oh, I'd love to do that. You know, I don't have time. I was like, well, you know, if you reprioritize, you know, you've got different things going on in your life at the time.

But, you know, if you actually juggle things around. I actually don't have that many people saying they want to do Epic Five. No, no. I'm so shocked that nobody is like, oh my gosh, I want to do that. I've had like three people. One girl who has her heart set on it and she's 100% committed to doing it, which is amazing. And you can pay it forward by helping her. Yeah, I have been. Yeah. Yeah. I said to her, I'm like, ask me any questions whatsoever. Like, I'm an open book. Like, I want to help you as much as I can. Yeah, so it's really good.

I really, really enjoy that. And then the two women who did it last year as well, you know, like both of us were in contact with them and just saying, you know, we'll help you as much as we can. You know, we want to help you be successful. Right. So four women have attempted. Correct. Three have completed it. That's right.

Who's the third? Her name is Michelle Santiano. And she's amazing. English swim, ram finisher, arc to arch finisher. Oh, wow. So the fact that when she messaged me, I was literally like, now why are you asking me again? She's like, I'm not a strong cyclist. I was like, you finished Race Across America. You're

fine. You're going to be fine. You're good. She's like, well, that was a ton of years ago. I mean, she's impressive, really impressive. And that, when we were talking about women racing, and that's one of the things that I really appreciated so much about when Mel reached out. She was like, look, and it didn't matter if she had, she could have finished 25 Ultramans or two. She was like, look, I want this to be the best experience possible. And if you've done it and you've learned anything, either positive or negative, and you're willing to share. Because sometimes you ask people and they're very vague, or they want to be very elusive about it, or they don't really want you

to finish, or they're threatened by the idea of, or they want to make it seem like it's impossible. Like they want to kind of like, oh gosh, you don't want to know about Epic Five. It was so, but I think it's a little different. And our approach is different where we're like, if you really want to commit and do this, I'll absolutely help you finish it. Yeah. Yeah. I'll tell you everything I know. Yeah.

That's super cool. Yeah. I think what's amazing about the ultra world is that it's this great equalizer in sport, because the longer the distance is, the more parity there is between men and women. Yeah. When you get into the crazy super long stuff, like men, we're all in this together, and women are able to excel on an unbelievable level. I mean, when you see what Courtney DeWalter is doing right now,

she's just crushing all the dudes. It's amazing, right? And I love the idea of... I mean, I embrace the idea that, you know, once these kind of barriers are broken, then the floodgates are open. Like, you know, when Jason and I did it, like, we didn't know whether it was possible or we could do it. And we struggled through it and got it done and, you know, didn't get it done in five days. And now it's like a thing. And people do it every year. And there's like three women who have crushed it. And I think that's so cool. I love all of that. And I think it basically

puts out into the universe a greater sense of what's possible in general. So that James Lawrence, the Iron Cowboy can go out and do 50 Ironmans in 50 states in 50 days, which to this day, I still have trouble wrapping my head around. Yeah. But I think it speaks to that incremental progression of human beings doing things more and more difficult that allows us all to believe that we're capable of more than we'd like to imagine. Absolutely.

Or that we're prone to imagine. Yeah. Yeah. I just want more women to do ultra racing. It's amazing. Yeah. So if there's anyone who contacts me, I'm like, yes, do it. Do it. I'll tell you everything.

I'll tell you everything you need to know. Right. I mean, women are very underrepresented in the sport of ultra community and particularly in ultra cycling and long distance bike riding. And I think, you know, there's a lot of, we both have very, very supportive partners who are very proud of what we do and proud of the fact that we can go out and on any given day, we might destroy them on the bike or ride for twice as long as they do. But not everybody has that situation, and not everybody feels like they can do that. You can't do it without support at home.

Oh, no. No chance. It's a team sport. Yeah. It really is. Absolutely. It is. And people, they definitely underestimate how much support you're truly going to need.

Yeah. Some of these races are really like a community event. Absolutely. And people don't get that. How do you guys think about yourselves as being role models for young women and other female athletes? Yeah, I kind of find it's weird. I'm like, you know, because people are like, oh, you're such an inspiration.

I'm like, oh, really? I'm just an ordinary person doing fun things that I enjoy. But you are. Yeah, thank you. You know that. Yeah, no, I love it. I love it. And I think it's important for you to go out and tell the story.

Yes. Because you don't know the impact that your experience can have. Yeah. Like, when you told the story of the young girl in Molokai, Will's daughter, like, that's profound. Yeah. Yeah. Like, that's profound. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like, that's huge.

And that's, so, like, you don't think about that. Or the fact that, like, one of my friend's daughters, they, you know, they can't wear Halloween costumes in school anymore. They have to dress up like a book character. And she literally dressed up like me for Halloween. And I was like, what? Like, me? Like, are you serious? I'm like, but what?

And people, it's, so, it has a level of responsibility with it. and I was like, what? Like me? Like, are you serious? I'm like, but what? And people, it's, so it has a level of responsibility with it that sometimes can feel like a little overwhelming. But I like the fact that at the end of the day, like we're average people, like we work jobs. Like we were talking about how unassuming, when I was in Kona a couple of weeks ago,

this guy was, you guy was the swim start. He made a comment about, oh, have you ever done Ironman? I said, oh yeah, I have. And my friend that was with me was like, oh, she did this race called Epic Five. And he starts telling her about it. And he looked over at me, he goes, what did you weigh, like 100 pounds when you did it? And I was like, no, I was just large like I am now. I like the fact that we can be like regular people who don't look like professional athletes. Yeah. Who wouldn't ever look at us and be like, oh, wow, that person can totally ride her bike across the country. But then you can.

Yeah. So you're breaking a lot of stigmas around like how you should look or how you should act or how you should – like those people must not have jobs. Like that's what people will say. That's what people ask all the time. You must not work. Well, because it's easier for them to, you know, feel okay about how they're living. Right, right.

They can be dismissive. Yeah, like, oh, well, you just. They don't really have to confront it. I'm like, well, no, I mean, but I don't watch television. Like when people say, well, you don't have time. I'm like, well, how much time do you spend a week watching TV? Yeah. I don't watch TV.

Right. So if you don't watch TV. Or they'll say not much and then like, all right, well, how much time do you spend a week watching TV? I don't watch TV. So if you don't watch TV- Or they'll say not much, and then like, all right, well, how much football do you watch on Sunday? Oh, six hours. You're like, oh, that's not much. People, I mean, people make, you make whatever's a priority in your life, you make it a priority. In the same, you know, when I look at the people that I race with and I look at the people that I train with, and recently I was at the pool swimming, and when I was in the people that I race with and I look at the people that I train with, and recently I was at the pool swimming and when I was in the locker room, like nine out of the people, nine out of like the 15 women that were in the locker room showering after the swim were all

doctors. Like they were all physicians and surgeons. And this woman was talking to me about Epic Five and she's like, I just don't know how you did it. And I was like, well, how did you get through medical school? Like, how'd you get through your residency? Like, how'd you get through law school? That same grit, that's, I mean, that's what it is. It's just grit. And I was like, well, how did you get through medical school? How'd you get through your residency? How'd you get through law school? That same grit, I mean, that's what it is. It's just grit. And that's the difference is whatever, you either have it or you kind of don't. The people that have it and figure out a way to get their PhD when they weren't very well-educated growing up, those are the people that are going to excel in this kind of sport because they've just got it. I think, I think you can have it, but also you can develop it as well. I think that's something that I like, I don't take my mental

strengths for granted. I build it up over time, every training block for a new race, I will start, you know, and go, okay, you know, focus on this, focus on that, and then keep developing and building it all the time. I don't just rely on it being there when I need it as well. So I think it is, yeah, you know, like a muscle, you can, you can improve it and work on it. And what's driving all of this? Like, this is the why question, right? Why do you do it? Why do you do it? What are you trying to learn? What is it doing for you? What is the, you know, what is the driving force that compels you to tackle these challenges? And I'm sure the answer is different for each of you.

Yeah. I don't know your why. Yeah. I guess for me, what I said before is trying to find the limit, trying to push myself. And I guess I grew up – The why. Yeah, why.

Why, why. The why behind the why. Well, I guess I grew up – I don't feel like why behind the why well I guess you know I grew up you know I don't feel like I'm any kind of extraordinary person and I had a lot of people doubting that I was actually able to do my first Ultraman and then you know and even Epic Five and so I guess some of it's a bit of like well I'll prove to you that I can you know there's a little bit of ego in it has to be you know that's normal that's natural um but But also just because I want to see how mentally far I can push myself and how physically far I can push myself until, you know,

I just can't do it anymore and, like, I can't. I haven't found that point so I'm still searching. I'm still trying to go and, like, keep going and go beyond that. And I guess the enjoyment that I get from really digging deep is just like nothing else in my life, just to be able to get to that. I don't know. I don't really feel like I have one particular thing that is this is why. It's a whole bunch of other things. You know, I really enjoy, you know, I love the sport. I love, you know, going out for, you know, riding for 10 hours just because,

you know, I decided to ride from here to there and it took me a long time to get there. Yeah, and it's just, you know, like next year I'm looking to do Uberman as well and that's going to be my next, you know, massive thing. I'm like, all right, well, you know, am I able to do that? That scares me. Let's do it. Right. Let's sign up for that. So explain to people what UberBad is,

because this is really something else. Yeah. So I don't really- I know the guy who came up with this crazy hair-burning idea. He lives here in Malibu. Oh, does he? Yeah. Oh, okay. Good to know. Yeah. So the swim is the Catalina Channel swim. So it's 33, 34 kilometer swim. I don't know miles. Um, and then the bike is just over 600 kilometers and you finish at the start of where the, um, bad water run starts and then you do the bad water run at the end of it. So there's, I like in the fact that there's no cutoff. So you start and then you finish whenever you finish. Like I'm, you know, obviously I'm going to try. You can do it over the course of a year if you want.

If you really wanted to. I'm not going to take a year. I cannot do the year off. So basically you swim from Catalina to Palos Verdes and then you do RAM essentially and then you run Badwater. Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. Just a little bit.

Yeah. And, you know, it's another challenge. And, yeah, you know, as I said, it's something that scares me, like epic five intimidated the hell out of me. And I was like, I wouldn't give it a go. Just, you know, put it out there, see if I can do it. You know, why not just give it a go? Yeah. So, and I, you know, I do like it. Like one of my, one of my good friends, his daughter, who's eight, you know, he was telling her about this. And so she wrote me a card that actually I have with me and it's, it's beautiful. And he goes to me, oh, by the way, she expects you to win. I was like, oh, okay. No pressure. I'm not going to win. But yeah, like, you know,

she feels really inspired by it. And I'm like, that's, that's amazing. So there's a whole bunch of whys in that. And yeah, just because I can. Yeah. Dani. I think for me, like working in geriatrics and working with older adults, and when I started doing long-distance racing, I was working in a retirement home. And every day people would get up and they would go to the library and they would drink coffee. And I would constantly hear people talking about stuff they didn't do. Regrets. Like people never said, I missed like the season finale of Grey's Anatomy in 2008, or, oh my God,

I can't believe that I... It always had to do with travel, or I wish I would have spent more time with my kids. And that was about the same time that that YOLO hashtag, you only live once, was coming out. And I really started thinking about that and thinking, one day, I'm going to be sitting in this retirement home, and I'm going to be like, I did everything that I could. Like I went all the places I could afford to go. I put my body through every physical limitation possible. If it sounded cool and I wanted to do it, then I did it. And I just like literally want to be at the end of my life saying like, I gave it all.

Like I'm empty. There's nothing left. Like I just did everything that I could. And for me, it's, you know, in a lot of ways, I feel really grateful because I was in a really bad accident where I got hit by a drunk driver and the doctor's like, you're probably never going to be able to run again. So I feel- Oh, wow. When was that? How long ago was that? In 2006. Yeah. So I feel, you know, I feel really grateful for the fact that I can do anything because I realize I got hit going like 50 miles an hour. I crushed his windshield and I landed in a gravel parking lot. My leg was completely in shambles. To be able to recover from that and then have any kind of resemblance of activity or a healthy lifestyle afterwards, like that's a huge gift.

But then to even take it even further, like I don't, you know, I say attitude of gratitude, but I really, I mean, I mean it. Like I wake up and I feel like I'm grateful for this and it is, you know, the stuff is out there. So why would we, like, why would I hold back on myself? Like, you know, you make promises to other people and you feel so guilty when you break a promise to somebody else, but people break promises to themselves all the time. You sign up for a race and then you bail on yourself.

You're like, oh, well, maybe I'm not going to do that. Or you have a goal like, oh, I want to learn how to sew. And then you're like, oh, no. But if somebody else, you had that commitment to them, you would try so hard to make it. But I'm like, you owe that to yourself, too. How come you didn't end up becoming a Navy SEAL?

Is it too late? I don't know. Is it too late? I think you would be a badass SEAL. I mean, you have everything. Is it too late? I don't know. You would know.

Ask your husband. This is the part that's really funny about our relationship that people, like, and Rebecca has met him, so she'll understand. So I can't remember where we were in Ram, and I couldn't feel my toes. And I was like, oh my gosh, baby, I don't have any feeling in my toes. He goes, it doesn't matter. You don't need toes to ride bikes. Yes.

And that was it. And he goes, shut down. No sympathy there. He goes, get back on your bike. And that, like when I was training for Epic Five or he was like, if you sign up for this, there is no complaining. Like in our house, there is a rule. You wanted this. You do not complain. He is, and I had like a mechanical issue one time on my bike, like five hours into a ride that was supposed to be seven or eight hours. And I was so frustrated because I was just, I was having such a good ride and I came home. He goes, get your ass on the trainer and finish. He was like, there's no reason why you can't finish a ride. You have a trainer upstairs. Right. Go finish. And that's kind of

that. I've done that. Oh my God. Are you guys going to have kids? I'm, like, terrified for your child. Like, that's that level of accountability that, like, very few people, like, there's, you know, you don't get that. You don't have people that are telling you, well, yeah, you can totally do that. Like, when Mel's telling me about this race, I'm like, wait, when is it? Like, I want to do it. But, you know. You guys got to do it together after this. Come on, you just met today. Well, you have to do something together.

We do. Yeah. We got to find something together. We're doing Race Across the West in June. Of course you are. So that's the 1,000 Mile Bike Race. Yes, I'm really excited about that. So we're going to try to go real fast there.

So, yeah, so that's my next goal. So we're going to try to go real fast there. So yeah, so that's my next goal. So we're trying to ride our, we're going to time trial for a thousand miles and see how that turns out. And Mel, your next race is coming up quick here. Yes, it is. Ultraman World Championships. You're headed to Hawaii for last minute prep. Yeah. Yeah. Super excited for you. Very excited. Thank you. It's such an amazing race and such an amazing community of people. Yeah. Interestingly, in the wake of the volcanoes, they've had to change the course, right? So how are they working that this year?

So the swim's the same. Day one bike is out and back and it finishes back in Kona because they can't go to volcano. The place where they stayed, the military base is closed. Well, it was. I presume it's still closed. So just for people that are listening, it's three-day stage race, double Ironman. You circumnavigate traditionally the big island of Hawaii. The first day is a 6.2-mile swim and then a 90-mile bike that takes you from that, what is that bay where you finish the swim? I can never remember the name of it.

But you ride up to Volcano National Park, the last 20 miles of which is like a crazy 4,000-foot climb with all these headwinds and everything. But because of the volcano, you can't go up there. You can't go down the backside. No, the backside. One of the roads is completely taken out by the lava. The Red Road is like the most beautiful, pristine part of the whole island has just been washed out.

Yeah, lava's just overtaken the road. So when they say out and back, you're riding out to where and back, do you know? Good question. I haven't figured it out yet. When I get there, I'll have a look. She needs a binder. Dani would have this question answered for sure. She needs a binder for sure.

I do, but do you know what? I made a binder for Ultraman. Yeah. I'm kind of more on the Dani side of this. Yeah, no. I ran New York Marathon on Sunday, and people were like, where's the run go? Oh, you just ran the one. Yeah, and I was like, Staten Island to Manhattan.

They go, where do you go through? And I was like, a few other boroughs. I don't know. There'll be plenty of people to follow. I won't be leading, so it's fine. You're like, I'm just going to follow the masses. The weather was great, right? It looked amazing.

It was amazing. Yeah. Yeah, it was beautiful. Beautiful run. Had so much fun. But yeah, I don't really care about the courses. You know, if there's hills coming up, I'm like, oh yeah, about this distance, I'll be, you know, doing a climb or whatever.

But I honestly, I don't really know a lot about the courses and I don't look, you know, I'm not that prepared. I don't really know a lot about the courses and I don't look, you know, I'm not that prepared. I don't have a binder. It actually is easy to get lost because you're so separate from, you know what I mean? Like your crew really needs to know where they're going. Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah.

And I rely on my crew for that because, I mean, when I did Epic Five, I had all the maps on my garment just in case we got separated and I took a couple of wrong turns and did get a little bit lost. I've never figured out how to read the maps on the Garmin. It's so tiny. I can't even see it. It never worked. It starts beeping at you when you're off course, but you have to download them. Like it never worked for me. So it would constantly tell me I was off course. And then I was like, Oh, forget it. Yeah. It helped a little bit, but we did take a couple of wrong turns, All right, so then out and back 90 miles. Out and back stay. And then where do you?

St. Kona. And then the second day we go over, is it Station Road, I think? There's a new road that's through the middle of the island that they've made. And so we still finish in Harvey and we still do the same run, but we don't go through the Kahalas anymore either. They couldn't get permits for that part of the road, so they've completely changed it. And it ended up going from 14,000 feet down to 13,000 feet and a bit of elevation for the day two bike. Cause I cut out the Kahalas, which I'm

a bit upset about. Do you still ride the Hapuna coast though before that? That's like the North Eastern. I'm pretty sure. Yeah. That's super hard and windy and windy and lots of ups and downs but yeah that day two bike the kicker is that you have to finish by going over the cojones which are the biggest climbs on yeah yeah so we're not we're not doing that bit anymore that's yeah there's other climbs so it's taking the elevation down a little bit but the road through the middle apparently it's i think it's like a 20 milemile climb or something. Oh, that's good. Yeah. Yeah.

It's going to be interesting. You wouldn't want them to make it easy. No. No, no, no. Absolutely. And on Facebook, people are like, now that's an Ultraman course. And I'm like, oh, okay. I'm like, whatever it is, it is. Maybe it's harder.

I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. I think the elevation's more, but I don't know if that's going to make it harder or what it is. Because I haven't done it before, so I don't have a comparison to it. Like, I've been around the island in a car, but's different you know you can't can't compare to that right yeah and when people think about the big island you and think about traveling you think about Ironman World Championships which is known for the heat and the headwinds and all of that you certainly have headwinds at Ultraman but it's not not really hot. I mean, it is hot on the run, but not hot like it is in October.

Yeah. It's not quite, it's really not that bad. Yeah. I mean, you could have a crazy heat wave or whatever. And the other parts of the island actually was like cold and it was like raining and, you know, it's not what you think of when you think of Hawaii. No.

The day I went to Volcano, like during touristing, it was actually really cold when I got there. Oh, it's freezing up there. Yeah. You wake up in the morning. This is Hawaii. And then you have to do this like 15 mile descent The day I went to Volcano Like during touristing It was actually really cold When I got out of the car Oh it's freezing up there Yeah Oh yeah You wake up in the morning This is Hawaii And then you have to do this

Like 15 mile descent And it's almost always raining Yeah I mean the pavement's soaking wet It's very wet over there It's very treacherous Yeah The day after I finished Epic 5

Again won't be surprising You went out and trained Jason woke up And he goes Come on let's go And I was like Go where He's like

We gotta excite-see We drove the entire circumference of the island. Oh, you did? Yeah. It took like 10 hours. It takes a long time. It takes you the whole day. And then you're like, wait, this race.

He was like, Black Sand Beach, let's go. Green Sand Beach, let's go. Come on. Volcanoes National Park, come on. We're going to see all these things. And I was like, all right, we're going to get it all. That dude needs to chill. You know what I mean?

Like he needs a little mindfulness practice maybe. Be present. He should. He does need a mindfulness practice. Yeah. I'll talk to him about that. We'll see. You can still have your binder. It's okay. Yes. Just like hit pause once in a while, right? Yep. Yep. That was the ongoing joke when we were in Kona. We had like 50 people that came to help cheer for Brent and Kyle. And- Explain a little bit more about- Oh, yeah. So my-

Because it's pretty cool. Sorry. So my coach is Brent Pease, and he and his brother, Kyle Pease – Kyle's got cerebral palsy. And so when they race and they were invited to do Ironman World Championship, it was their fourth Ironman, they swam like a 107, which is unbelievable. Crazy fast. He's pulling Kyle. He's pulling Kyle in a boat, and then they ride a modified Trek, like a three-wheel bike, that adds a significant amount of weight. It's made out of steel. Right. And then he pushes them running, doing a race chair.

And they finished in 14 and a half hours. Wow. They were the second ever duo assist team to finish Kona outside of the Hoyts, which was awesome. Everybody knows the Hoyts. And Kyle, so they started a foundation. And that is what we do is they went to Marine Corps this weekend and had 21 teams that finished. So we take people who have various levels of being differently abled, and we take them to these sporting events.

And they're able to participate with other people. And that doesn't really exist. So there might be modified baseball or basketball, but it's uncommon that you would go to a marathon and see people running, pushing people in race chairs. It's really cool. Super cool. So that's the whole idea behind the group. So when we were in Kona, that was kind of the ongoing joke was around the notebook. And what are we going to do on this day? I don't know.

Check, Danny, check your notebook. What do you think people most misunderstand about these races and what you guys do? Like when you're just, when people ask you about it or? I think that people just think it's too big, can't do it, impossible, you know. And they think that we are just extra superhuman or like super athletes or, you know, just something absolutely incredible that's over there that is just, you know, far too far out of people's reaches. Whereas I don't see that at all. I think that's probably one of the biggest things that people like, I could never do what you do. You must be so fit.

You must be so super strong and everything. And I was like, yeah, you know, you build it up over time, but it's, um, yeah, it's, it's kind of this superhuman, like God, like almost that people put you off on pedestal. I'm like, yeah, that's not, I don't really agree at all. I don't have very many people putting me on pedestals. Somehow people think that like I must get paid to do this. I'm like, it's the complete opposite. Must be nice. You must be sponsored. They're like, God, it must be great to get paid to go ride your bike.

And I'm like, look, like Justin's nut butter might send me like 100 packs of almond butter and I'm excited about that. Like that's – there is no money in this. Like there is nothing. I mean it's the total opposite. Like I'm pouring all these resources into doing it. No, there is nothing in there. So it's this huge misconception that like, you know, you must be paid to do this. Or sponsored.

Yeah, you're sponsored. There's a lot of money and everybody looks like a racehorse. Have you seen this documentary called 3100 Run and Become? No. So I had the filmmaker on the podcast. Actually, there's a screening this Friday night. I'm going to do a live Q&A with the filmmaker and this guy, Knox Robinson, afterwards. But it's about this ultra run called the self-transcendence run, which is a 3,100-mile run around a half-mile block in Queens, New York. I've heard about that.

That Sri Shinmoy started, the guru. And you basically run from 6 a.m. to midnight every day. And you got a clock about basically around, I think it's 30 miles a day in order to stay on track. And you just do it until you've gone 3,100 miles. It's literally around a half mile city, like just a nondescript block in Queens, which is just outside New York City. And it follows the stories of a couple of the competitors. It's pretty small. There aren't that many people there. But when you watch these people, they don't look like athletes.

They look like just, you would never think like, oh my God, that guy just ran 3,100 miles over the course of a summer. He's just a dude, you know? And the women, the same thing. And I think that disabuses people of this idea of what an ultra athlete looks like. And it begs the question of where the mental game ends and the physical game begins. Like if you had to answer how much of this is mental or emotional versus physical aptitude,

like how do you think about that? I'd say probably be 80-20 split, 80 mental, 20 physical. You can only physically train so much. Yeah. Yeah. You can only be so fit. And then, yeah, everything else has to be the mental. And the body is going to give out before them. It's the mind that is the limiter. I agree. And we were talking about this. It's interesting because I will get at the gym, people would be like, oh, you must be a CrossFit athlete. Or you're, oh, wait, you ride bikes? Like you're a lot, well, you're so big. And I'm like, well, yeah, I mean, I'm sorry I don't look the way you think I should look to be able to do this, but it's right. I mean,

it's how you think. I mean, it is, your body is going to give up. And, you know, I think if you went out and did like FTP testing or lack of threshold or all this on ultra people that are successful, I think they would probably be more, like, middle of the pack than you would realize. Yeah, that has no bearing on your aptitude. They're really not going to be that amazing. Like, you might not look at people's numbers and be like, oh, my gosh, like, look at her. VO2 max is, like, through the roof. Well, it's not. Right.

I just suffer. You probably have a low resting heart rate though. I do. I do. Like my skill is that I can out suffer you. Like I will out, like I will out suffer you and that's what I'm better at. If we are both miserable, I can be miserable for a lot longer than you can. Right. And how do you train that? Do you train that simply by continuing to place yourself in those positions where you're tested? Or are there specific things that you do, visualization or, like, I don't know, like, are there things that you do outside of swim, bike, run to test that in yourself? Yeah.

I mean, I do think that, yeah, I mean, that's the whole doing something every day that I don't want to do, forcing myself to be in uncomfortable situations. And I will do things that I think are miserable. I'll run for three hours on the treadmill with no music and just sit there and look at nothing. I will train myself to be bored or train myself to be miserable in that capacity. Do you sleep in a chair sitting up like Goggins does? No, but I should. You should, yeah. You're thinking about it. When I first started training, I used to eat things that were really ridiculous, and then I would go out and run. So when I was training for Epic Five, there's a pool that's eight miles from our house, and I would run with a pack on my back and swim. And then sometimes I would have to run back, and sometimes I wouldn't. And I used to ask Jason to bring me a towel and he goes, you're training for Epic Five. The last thing you need to be worried about is drying off.

He was like, if you need a towel, we have bigger problems. And that was just that whole, I'm about to swim. I thought you were going to say, you were going to call him to have him pick you up. Oh, he would never do that. He would never. There was one time, there was one time I thought about calling him to pick me up and I was like, he would laugh at me and be like, you have to find a way home and it's not going to be me. Yeah. Sorry. Holy shit. Yeah. Like he's not, he's not, he is not picking. I'm glad I'm not married to him. No, he's fantastic. You get a little more sympathy at home.

Yeah. A little bit more. I feel better. No, there's no, but he'll tell you, like you're, he'll say you Do you get a little more sympathy at home? Yeah, a little bit. Yeah. Yeah, a little bit more. Good. I feel better. No, there's no... But he'll tell you. He'll say, you're the toughest person I know. He'll be like, you're the... Yeah, I was going to say, you did Epic Five. He didn't. Yeah.

He will tell you. He will say, you are the toughest person I know. You don't need it. You're fine. He'll always be like, you're fine. You're so tough. You're fine. Right.

Yeah. All right. Well, we got to round this thing down. But I want to leave people with a little bit of insight that they can, you know, take away from both of your experiences. There's a lot of people that feel stuck or they feel like they're incapable of tackling difficult challenges or their life circumstances aren't such that they can participate in these things. I think people in general tend to underestimate their aptitude and their abilities and their potential. shining stars and examples of what's possible when you apply yourself rigorously towards a goal that most people would dissuade you from or tell you is impossible. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think I had, so I have a quote and it's been written on a chalkboard and it says,

our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we're powerful beyond measure. And then underneath it, it says 5-5-16, which was the date of the race. And it's literally been sitting in my bathroom since I decided to do Epic Five. And that's what I will tell people. I'll be like, that's really what you're afraid of. You're not afraid of what you can't do. People tend to get more afraid about what they can do when they really start to think about it. Right. They're afraid, like they say, fear of success, but it's really fear of what happens

if you put all of yourself on the line for something. Because that's a terrifying, very vulnerable thing to do. Absolutely. Yeah, of course. I mean, there's fear of commitment. There's fear of failure. Like, you know, Mel was talking about how many people, like when you do these races like RAM, we had 11 people on our crew. Like the fear of the fact that we paid for 11 people to be out here with us. What if we let these people down? Like that's a huge, like for Brent and Kyle racing Kona, physically Brent was like, I'm in the best shape of my entire life.

He's like, but this isn't just about me. There are 50 people that paid their own money to be here and watch me race. He's like, I can't let them down. Like, it's just that pressure. I guess for me, I have a lot of people, you know, just going, well, I could never do what you can do. And I said, well, what can you do? You know, it's like, you know, people are like, oh, you know, they always talk their achievements down, which really drives me insane. Oh, you know, it's like, you know, people are like, oh, you know, they always talk their achievements down, which really drives me insane. Oh, you know, I just rode a marathon. You did a little bit of that earlier. Okay, sorry.

Yeah. That's a very Aussie thing. Very much so. Very much so. Oh, yeah, yeah. Like I know not many people at work actually know what I do outside of work. And if, you know. That's shocking.

Yeah. And it's really funny because my friends actually brag for me. Like I'll be, you know, I'll say, oh, you know, yeah, I do triathlons. And they're like, no, no, no. No, shocking. Yeah. And it's really funny because my friends actually brag for me. Like, obviously, you know, I'll say, oh, you know, yeah, I do triathlons. And they're like, no, no, no, no, you tell them, you tell them what you do. Like you've, you've done all this. And it's like, oh yeah. Okay. Fair enough. So no, I do a bit of that, but I also pick up when other people say, oh, you know, I ran a 5k, but you know, that's nothing like what you do. And I'm like, that is amazing. Like celebrate your achievements. You know, obviously, you know, you don't have to do what I do, but you know, whatever you're doing, that's amazing. You know, if that means, you know,

you can get up off the couch and walk around the block. Awesome. Celebrate that, you know, like just, um, you know, just start somewhere. Like I had to start somewhere, you know, everybody has to. So I think that's probably, probably the biggest thing. And I draw inspiration from other people doing what they can do as well. Like I look to other people, you know, I've got, you know, friends who like ran the first marathon and I'm like, that is awesome. Like that inspires me as well. So I draw energy from that as well.

And yeah, like when you're talking about visualization before, when I sign up for races, I visualize the finish line. That's always for me what I think about, you know, when I'm like struggling on something and then I'll be like, no, no, how amazing that finish line is going to be. So that's, yeah, that's one of the things that I always do as well. Yeah. You know, to that point, you know, Danny, what you said about when you started and you were severely overweight and, you know, you could just go to the gym for 15 or do 15 minutes or whatever it is. I mean, it's extraordinary what you're doing

now in juxtaposition to that, because I think a lot of people can relate to being in that place and being afraid to go to the gym, because going into a gym when you're out of shape is a very intimidating, frightening thing. And I was mortified. I was scared to death of the gym. I had no idea what I was doing. I was embarrassed by how I looked. I wear these huge baggy clothes. And that's, you know, when I tell people, I'm like, there is like, I'm not like a college athlete. Like I was, I'm a really normal person. Like it doesn't, it's not as, it's not quite as scary as you think, but you're right. I mean, you have to, short stuff is hard and 5k is hard. And things are as hard as you make them. And so just don't say, well, I only did an Olympic or I only did a sprint or I just did, you know,

things are absolutely as hard as you, as you want them to be and as hard as you, as you make them. And they can really, really hurt for sure. But not minimizing and, you know, just kind of accepting, it's also just accepting kind of where you are. And we went and swam together. And I had, of course, gotten lost on this hike. And it's amazing that I didn't get eaten by a mountain lion and that I survived three hours later. But I was joking around and I said, I swam for 15 minutes

and she swam for an hour. And it's not like, oh, well, why can't I swim for an hour? That's not where I am in my life right now. That's not what I'm... I'm not supposed to be there. My place is not... I am excited that Mel is going and doing Ultraman next week, but I'm not there. That's not... So not comparing yourself. Don't get into that... Comparison really is a thief of all joy. So don't get into that habit of saying, well, why can't I go out on a two-hour run with Mel? Well, because it's been months since you ran more than five miles. So that's just not where I'm at. Yeah. Being comfortable training where you currently sit as opposed to where you think

you should be or used to be. Right. It's one thing I say all the time, and I think it's super important and helpful. And I also appreciate and respect the incremental progression of both of your stories, right? Like it just – this happened over a long period of time of just slowly increasing the intensity and the volume and the distances and challenging yourself just a little bit more than you did before. And sure enough, it takes you to this place where people are like, holy cow, I can't believe you did that. And I think it speaks to this idea that a lot of people tend to overestimate what they can do in a month or a year. Like I'm gonna do this thing.

And generally people flame out on that goal before they even get to that year or they're discouraged because they haven't reached some crazy goal in a compressed period of time. But if you just commit to the process and that little progressive incremental growth that is almost imperceptible,

five years, seven years down the line, like look what you're able to accomplish. So it's about like staying in the game, right? And continuing to remain engaged with that goal that you seek. Yeah, definitely. I mean, consistency is key and you can't look at something like Ultraman and think, well, she just signed up for that after she did her first Ironman or something. I mean, we have thousands and thousands of miles in our body. Right. And we started off on a very normal progression, like with a 5K, with a 10K. My first race had a 200-yard pool swim and a 10-mile bike.

Yeah. And that was all I could have done at that point. And if somebody had told you then you're going to do Ram. I would have, I would have died laughing. What is Ram? Well, yeah, I had no idea what it was. Although I will tell you when Jason and I first started dating, I found this email that, that I had sent him and I said, it was the Racer Across America website. And this is like 10 years ago. And I was like, hey, I found this website. Look how ridiculous this is. And it's

the same thing, like the whole rich role. And I was like, and I remember Jason being like, there's no way we could ever do that because we like logistics and we like, you know, he's like, oh, logistically, that sounds like a disaster. They lost their nuts and bolts. No way. He's like, oh, no, no, no, there's no way. There's no way. And I'm like, they're crazy. But then you just, you don't know. Yeah. You never say never. Like, I'm sure you read at some point, you read about Ultraman and was like, oh, that's crazy. Oh, you know, I read it and went, I want to do that. Yeah. That's fun. Where do I sign? Yeah. That's funny. Yeah. Yeah. That's fun. Where do I sign? Yeah. That's funny. Yeah. Well, cool. How are we going to get more female athletes, more women engaged in ultra sports?

It's interesting. I heard someone say, I have no idea who it was, but they said that women need to be 80% confident that they're going to finish before they sign up for something. Whereas men need to be 20% confident. Like it's just that whole disparity. Yeah. Yeah. And like I look at 20% confident. Like it's just that whole disparity. Yeah, yeah. And like I look at people in my life and it's really true. Like I know for myself, like I had to, you know,

four years of planning before I got to Ultraman because I was like, okay, let's step it out. You know, I need the distance in my, you know, all the training under my belt. You've got it all figured out. Yeah, yeah. Even if you didn't have a binder. Well, I did not have a binder.

It was in your mind though. The binder was committed to memory. Yeah, yeah. Even if you didn't have a binder. Well, I did not have a binder. It was in your mind though. The binder was committed to memory. Yeah, and, you know, for me it was I've only just started in the sport. I need to get all that base miles before I can start training for that. Otherwise I'm just going to break down. It's not going to be possible. Right. So, yeah, I think it's getting people to that confidence level to say,

yes, you actually can and just, you know, even like dipping your toe in the water like, you know, not just but, you know, even like dipping your toe in the water, like, you know, not just, but, you know, like doing a hundred K run and then, okay. So then moving up from that, not necessarily, you know, going from Ironman to Ultraman, like, you know, we did, although if they, you know, they did, that'd be amazing, but trying to figure out how to develop that confidence of, yes, this is actually possible. And then, then getting to that. Yeah. Yeah. And I think not being overwhelmed by the fact that, you know, when you look at results or you look at, you know, I did a 24-hour bike race out here in Brego Springs. And like, there was me and Shawna Hogan racing.

And that was it. And she's like, Ram record holder, record holder for five gazillion, you know, races. She's had records since like I was a baby, literally since the 80s. Not getting caught up in the fact that, well, why aren't there more women that are signed up? And in triathlon, the longer distance races, the percentage of men to women, it will start to shift. And so once you get past that 70.3 distance, it really starts to lean more towards men. And I do agree that it's a confidence issue. And it's the confidence also sometimes around the training. Well, how am I going to be considered a bad mom if I sign up for an Ironman?

Like, am I going to be, are people going to judge me? Are they going to make me feel guilty? And people don't say the same things about men. Nobody, when I go on a ride with a guy, nobody's like, well, who's watching your kids? You have to level that out at some point. And you've got to surround yourself by people that support you and find other women that can not judge you and support it, for sure. And then not be overwhelmed when you look at something and think, well, there must be a reason why other women aren't doing it. Well, the reason is because we all kind of have to come together and take that first

step. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cool. Yeah. I can't end this without taking a moment to formally and publicly thank the great Rebecca Morgan for all of her amazing work. None of this would be possible or would have happened without her tireless commitment to not just Epic Five, but Rebecca and I go way back. I mean, she's a big part of my story going back through early Ultramans and

has always been like an angel there, somebody who is really of selfless service. And it's so cool to see that you've taken over this race and you're running it and you're making it available to so many people and that there are these kick-ass women who are crushing it right now. It's super cool. So can you just come over here and say hi? I want to hear your voice. Hi. So this is Rebecca Morgan.

If you read Finding Ultra, you know who she is. And thank you. I love you, Rebecca. Oh, I love you too. Yeah. We love you too, Rebecca. Don't start crying. She's going to cry.

I just want to keep up the quality. Yeah. Oh, you are. Rebecca. Don't start crying. I know. She's going to cry. I just want to keep Epic Five alive. Yeah. Oh, you are. And she's a great resource too. I mean, Rebecca's incredible. She knows everything from top to bottom. Right. And if you're not ready, she's going to tell you.

I mean, I had somebody that reached out to me that said they want to do Epic Five. And I said, I think you need to do Ultraman. And they did. They did Ultraman Florida. And I'm like, here's the path that I would probably put you on. And she will help you. Like she will, she will help put you on that trajectory. Yeah. So how many people are currently signed up for this year? Well, we just finished this year. Oh, you just finished. Okay. So we're working on next year. We have quite a few events next year. We've got classic Epic five, Epic five Canada, the 565, which is the 70.3 distance, and the run.

Wow. But we're not going to have an Epic Five in 2020. Oh, you're not? Why not? We're doing the DECA. Oh, my God. All right. Are you guys doing that?

No. No. No. No. No. That's the first no I've heard in two hours. Yeah. I thought about it, but I need a break.

Like I've done. Yeah. No women? Which is she tried to fish me a couple weeks ago, and she sent me a text. And it was really one of those times where it was probably one of the only times I responded back. And she said, do you think this is possible, the schedule? And I said, honestly, no, not for me. For somebody who finishes an Ironman in nine or ten hours normally, then yeah.

I was like, but for me, that's going to be a pretty big stretch. So DECA meaning ten Ironmans. How does it break down? It's two an island, she said. It's not quite two an island, almost. It's three islands we're doing two. Three islands doing two. I think we might do three on the big island.

Right. All right. Well, if people want to learn about that, they can just go to the Epic Five website. No? Crazy. Yeah, I know. It's crazy. That's a big invite only.

Is it epicfive.com? Is that the website? Yeah. All right. So if you lunatics out there want to learn about that, go for it. Yeah, yeah. You got to have a secret handshake for the day. But don't blame me.

You know what I mean? All right, you guys. You are two of the most inspiring women I've ever met. Thank you for coming here and sharing your story. I appreciate that. Thanks. You guys are awesome. Good luck, Mel. Thank you. At Ultraman, I will be thinking about you and cheering for you and following from afar. And your race across the rocket, what is it? Race across the West. West, right, yeah. Yeah. So from Oceanside to Durango.

Wow. When does that start? June. Until June. Cool. And if you want to learn more about these lovely ladies, the first thing to do is to read Daniel's book, Fear No Distance, which I have not yet read, but you brought me a copy here today. So thank you. I'm looking forward to checking that out. And how else can people find you, follow you, cheer for you, give you a hey, what's up, high five? So Facebook is my name, Melissa Urie, and my Instagram is at Ranga Mal. You're going to have to say that in American.

Ranga. Ranga Mal. Like what? Yeah, what is that? So, yeah, Ranga is a, well, it's a derogatory word for redheads in Australia. It's actually quite, it's an insult but a lot of us as redheads take it on and just use it as our nicknames because that's the Australian way.

Just embrace it. So it's R-A-N-G-A-M-E-L. And I've got a blog which is rangamel.wordpress.com, which I update once a month, mostly with race reports and other things that I think about to write about. Yeah. Right on. Yeah. And I am danny, D-A-N-I underscore Grable, G-R-A-B-O-L on Instagram and Danielle Grable on Facebook. And I have a website and don't do a good job of updating my blog. But if you ever come to Atlanta and you want to ride some mountains, you know, you can, you can find me somehow.

Right. But they have to keep up with you. That's the problem. Or, and your husband might snipe them. I know. I wish I could tell you. You never know. He's going to, he's, you never know where he's, where he's going to jump out at. Now he's, he's, out at. He's great to ride with too. If you don't need a pad on the back. Exactly. If you don't like to be coddled and you don't want to be told you're going to be doing a good job and you want somebody who is- He's your guy. But if you want someone that's going to make you finish, it will be us. And I like to tell my last

little story here. When I was crewing for Chad, he had finished a gazillion races in the whole world. He tried to quit on me. And I picked him up, threw a donut in his hand, and kicked the chair out from under him and said, no. If you want somebody to kick the chair out from under you, we're your people. Right. And I jest. I mean, I'm sure he's the guy who you want on your team, who's going to support you and show up for you 110%. Yeah. You want to be stuck in a foxhole with him for sure. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yep. He's great. I mean, if he is in, he is like all in. Right. For sure. Cool. Well, if you guys, are you guys going to get out and train today?

We've got a swim to do later. Yeah. All right. Cool. Yeah. I don't have a swim to do, but I'm going to support her. I'm going to support her swim. Cool.

Thanks again again you guys really appreciate it come back anytime and look forward to crossing paths again soon sounds great thanks those women rock that was a privilege

what an honor true inspirations the both of them do me a favor let them both know what you thought of today's conversation you can find Mel at Ranga Mel, R-A-N-G-A-M-E-L on Instagram. And Danny is at Danny, D-A-N-I underscore Grable, G-R-A-B-O-L on Instagram. And don't forget to check out Danny's book, Fear No Distance. If you would

like to support the work we do here on the podcast, there are a couple simple ways to do just that. Tell your friends about the show. That's it. In conversation, analog, face-to-face, or you can share it on social media. Take a screen grab of whatever episode that you're listening to and share it on your favorite platform. Hit that subscribe button on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, on YouTube, anywhere that you enjoy this content. Leave a review on Apple Podcasts, and you can also support the show on Patreon at richroll.com forward slash donate. I want to thank everybody who helped put on the show today. Jason Camiolo for behind the scenes production, audio engineering, show notes,

interstitial music. He's helping me with writing scripts, all kinds of stuff. So thank you, Jason. Blake Curtis and Margo Lubin for video and editing. Jessica Miranda for graphics. DK for advertiser relationships and theme music, as always, by Annalama. Thank you for the love, you guys. I will see you back here next week with another great episode with entrepreneur, high-performance business coach, Todd Herman. It's a really cool conversation

all about his new book, which is called The Alter Ego Effect. I really look forward to sharing that one with you guys. Until then, may you dream bigger, may you reach higher, and may you love more deeply. Peace. What you reach higher. And may you love more deeply. Peace. Quiet.

Namaste. Thank you.