The Rich Roll Podcast - The Spiritual Road to Athletic Supremacy

Episode Date: March 31, 2014

I had to put my dog down the other day. I want to tell you about it. It might seem unrelated to introducing today's podcast guest, but it's not. So bear with me. Bodhi was a great dog. Indeed, a prince. But over the last several months, cancer took the upper hand. Tumors filled his left lung until it shut down, diseased cells metastasizing at a horrible pace until the poor guy could barely lift his head, let alone stand up. Stalwart, Bodhi hid his pain well. But it was there; unmistakable and unrelenting. I felt helpless.  It’s the humane thing to do. You did the right thing. The words of the kind veterinarian who handled the Kevorkian end of this pyrrhic victory to cease my dog's suffering. I gently cradled his head and locked my eyes with his as the needle sank deep beneath his fur. What followed were my tears as the fragile life force dwindled from his limp body until his beautiful soul had vanished altogether. All the while, my only thought: this doesn't feel like the right thing. In fact, it all feels terribly, horribly wrong. Bodhi is gone. It happens. The heartache that accompanies the short lifespan of man's best friend is the very nature of this relationship. I signed up for it and I accept it. In truth, our golden retriever had a great 12 years with our family – a time we will always cherish and for which I am forever grateful. But that doesn’t mean it doesn't hurt. In truth, it sucks. Bodhi is short for Bodhisattva – the ancient Sanskrit word for enlightened being. One who is motivated by great compassion. A more apt name for this dog does not, could not, exist. I guess the point is, as incredibly trite as this may sound – and it is nothing if not trite – life is short. Life is precious. Life is fleeting. And if one lives life motivated by fear and locked into habits that lead to regression, safety and misery, the precipitous end to that life will be nothing if not a lament to regret and remorse –for the authentic life of the higher self left unlived. We live in our flawed memories of the past. And are experts at projecting outcomes and fantasies onto a future that simply does not (and unlikely will ever) exist. What we rarely do is live in the now. Present in the moment. Experiencing gratitude for the immediacy of what is happening right in front of our very eyes on a second-to-second basis. Why is this so hard for us humans? The answer to this question brings me to today's guest. Timothy Olson. A man who understands and appreciates what it means to fully embrace the present. To live his life in the throes of gratitude. Yes, he runs. Faster, further and wider than most anyone else on Earth. But it's this aforementioned spiritual perspective and journey that defines what this guy — at his core — is truly all about. For the uninitiated, Timothy is an insanely accomplished world reknown ultrarunner. Aside from Kílian Jornet (who we can almost write off as otherworldly), you could make the argument that Timothy is one of the greatest — if not the greatest — ultrarunners on the planet right now. After pulling himself out of a drug-fueled descent into the dark abyss — a journey that left him lost in life, depressed, desperate, incarcerated and on probation — Timothy found not just solace but an entirely new life through running. A path that unfolded a fundamental personal spirituality emanating from hours alone exploring nature on two feet. A journey that led to discovering the transformative power of gratitude. To touching and unlocking a deeper, more meaningful part of himself. And to eclipsing the void beyond the limits of his preconceived physical, mental and emotional capabilities. Enjoy! Rich

Welcome to the Rich Roll Podcast, Episode 78, with Timothy Olson. The Rich Roll Podcast. Hey, everybody. Welcome to the show. Before I get into it, if you hear like beeping in the background or trucks driving around, they're doing construction across the street from my little office where I'm recording this introduction. And it would appear that they're building a mall, right? Like as if we need another mall in Southern California. mall, right? Like as if we need another mall in Southern California. So we're just going to have to accept it. There's nothing I can do about it. Hopefully it doesn't bug you too much, but it's about surrender, surrendering to what is, being in acceptance. And it's relevant to today's guest, to today's show, which we're going to get into in a minute. But before we do, just a quick thanks for all the great comments and feedback on the good Dr. Clapper episode last week. That guy is

like a national treasure. It was such a pleasure to sit down with him. And I'm really glad you guys enjoyed our conversation. I'm stoked about that. So, all right. What to say? What to do? What do we do here? What do I do? Well, let's see. I have a name. We can start there. It's Rich Roll. And each week I bring to you the best, most forward-thinking paradigm, busting minds in health, fitness, wellness, diet, nutrition, spirituality, creativity, entrepreneurship, life transformation, running, cycling, swimming, triathlon, Ironman, Ultraman, ultra running, Timothy, entrepreneurship, life transformation, running, cycling, swimming, triathlon, Ironman, Ultraman, ultra running, Timothy Olson. Hold on people. Hold your horses. Not yet. Not yet. The goal. The goal is to motivate and inspire you to take your life to the next

level, to help you discover, unlock, and unleash your best, most authentic self. Yes, dude. Timothy Olson. Not yet. Not yet. I had to put my dog down the other day. The Prince Bodhi. Bodhisattva. Bodhisattva, in case you are not familiar with that word, it's a Sanskrit term that loosely translated means enlightened being, which is kind of what dogs are. Enlightened being, motivated by great compassion. And that was certainly Bodhi. That was my dog.

He was a great dog. A great dog. A golden retriever we got about 12 years ago who lived a great life. We got him back when we were still living in a teepee and an Airstream, but that is the subject of a different podcast. In any event, he was an amazing friend, an incredible companion, and cancer took his life. and cancer took his life. It happens. It is the heartache that comes with a short life lived by dogs.

And I guess that's just part of what it means to own a dog. And I accept that. I surrender to that truth and that reality. But that doesn't mean it doesn't hurt. It was not fun holding his head when he couldn't even stand up and watching the vet inject his weak body with what would ultimately put his pain away. You're doing the right thing. It is the humane thing to do. The mantra of the doctor.

And intellectually, I know that to be true. But it certainly didn't feel that way when it was happening. And Bodhi is gone. And I guess the point is, as trite as it may sound, and it certainly is trite or contrite, life is short, and life is precious, and life is fleeting. and life is precious and life is fleeting. We spend so much time living in our flawed memories of the past and projecting outcomes and fantasies onto a future that doesn't even exist and probably won't exist. And what we rarely do is live in the now anchored in the present, present in the moment of what is happening, happening right now.

And why is this so hard for us human beings? You know, I know that when I can get there, when I can get into the moment, when I can be present, it's great. And that's a big part of why I love running and cycling and swimming and being on trails and outdoors and all of that. It helps facilitate that. But it's not always easy. I get it. I know. Timothy Olson, living in the now, embracing the present, enveloped in gratitude. That's this guy. Sure. If you follow ultra running, then you know well enough that Timothy is one of the most epic accomplished ultra runners on the planet right now. This guy is insane. Aside from Killian Jornet, who, you know, is almost a write-off as a complete freak of nature, you could make the argument that Timothy is the greatest, if not one of the greatest ultra runners out there

right now. The guy is completely on fire and at a minimum, the best American ultra runner currently competing. And I love this guy for many reasons. There are so many points of overlap and interest in his story that intrigue me. He's a guy who pulled himself out of a drug-fueled descent into the darkness. And you know me, you know that that is a storyline, a narrative that I like to explore. And, you know, in his case, it had him incarcerated on probation. It took him to some pretty dark places, but he found his way out. He crawled out of it.

He found solace through running, through embracing the now, through being in nature, through touching the void and getting connected to gratitude. And that's all fine. void and getting connected to gratitude. And that's all fine. But consider this on a purely athletic level. Timothy didn't even start competing as an ultra runner until about five years ago. And two years ago, in 2012, only three years into his ultra running career, he absolutely destroyed the field at the Western States 100, which is widely considered one of the most prestigious, if not the most prestigious, ultra running race on the planet. Not only did he win, he broke the course record. And he broke that course record by 20 minutes. Incredible, right? He won the race again, and he's out crushing it this year with his sights set on the Hard Rock 100 coming up in July as his key race.

He's a fascinating guy, but it's less his accomplishments that I'm interested in and more in his spirit, his soul surfer approach to sport and to life. surfer approach to sport and to life. And a guy who, you know, knows real pain has lived in the pitch black prison for reals and came out the other side, driven to find, explore, and embrace the love and the light in what he's doing. Living close to nature, living a minimal lifestyle with his priorities straight, a dad, a husband, a father, at peace on the trail. So I guess you could say one bodhisattva in my life has moved on, and a door has opened, and in walks another. And that's why life is truly beautiful, you guys. So let's see how this rolls. Enjoy. We're brought to you today by recovery.com.

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And they have treatment options for you. Life in recovery is wonderful. And recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. Did you go running in Malibu this morning? The run turned out not the best. I went on kind of the boardwalk for a few miles and then it ended.

And so I ended up running just kind of along the one for a while. Oh, you did? Yeah. That's a shame. You're not supposed to be on pavement. Yeah, I know it was not your trip land and um yeah but i was kind of just you know you need those those kind of runs to enjoy the other ones too so yeah it was good and still pounded out some good miles you don't you don't usually run on on roads at all really no not at all besides like getting back and forth to the trailhead. I should have sent you in the email.

I could have given you some good trailheads. Yeah, well, I was going to go up to Topanga State Park or something like that, and then Krista wanted to just meet me coming along here, so I was just trying to make it easier for her, and it turned out. But it worked out. I still got a run in so cool man well uh i appreciate you taking the time to do this and uh there's a lot of uh there's a lot of people that are pretty psyched that we're talking man and it's like where to where to begin

there's so many so many things i want to talk to you about you know, I think that it would be easy to kind of go, let's just go through all these crazy races that you've won. And like, I'm less interested in all the races that you've won than in the kind of journey that you've taken to get there. Like that's, that's what I find really interesting about your story. And one that, you know, I could, I feel like I can tap into emotionally, you know, so let's take it back, man. emotionally. So let's take it back, man. Let's take it back to Wisconsin. Let's take it back to the Christian upbringing. Okay, kick it old school.

Yeah, well, I grew up in Wisconsin, a really small little town called Amherst, 1,000 people, and basically my whole family, mother and father's side are all around there my grandparents opened a little hardware store and um in downtown amherst and my dad took that on and that's where i grew up working and spending a lot of time um when i wasn't doing like sports and stuff right but you were always you were into sports as a young kid, right? Like basketball and yeah, I, um, basketball is probably my main one that I really, like I, I really got into basketball. I was, you know, had all my favorite players and those posters around my wall and I spent,

you know, day and night playing basketball outside through the winter. I'd, you know, I'd scrape the ice off the driveway so I could play until my hands were numb. And I just loved it and really got into that. And then eventually kind of switched over. In high school, I started running cross-country track, taking in shape for basketball. So it wasn't like this immediate love with running. It was running was serving an end.

Yeah, yeah, for sure. And, you know, I was running a lot of just pavement there and fast miles and, well, for a high schooler. And, yeah, I think the thing that really got me was the friendships that I had, like, and developed in that arena. Just cross-country is such a a fun just you know kind of the at least in my school everyone is so into football that right cross country was where like

the dorks well they always are yeah at every high school and it's such a good bunch of people i i love the cross country kids and which it brought me back later um after some trying years to back to coaching just because i wanted to be a part of that and, you know, just inspire kids to have, have fun and know that running can be fun. It's not just, you know, trying to, you know, get a certain PR or, you know, how fast you can go. It's about, you know, just really developing yourself. Yeah. I mean, I think that's, that's something that you carry into your running now and that you always seem to, know exude i i look at your you know instagram pictures and and it's you you know once again on the top of mount wilson for the third time this week in nothing but a black pair of you know running

shorts and like no heart rate monitor no gps watch no you know you no camelback like one water bottle yeah there's water up there. And a big smile on your face. Yeah, I love it. And I probably get up to Wilson too many or too many Instagram photos of Wilson. No, keep them coming, man. It's beautiful up there. I just, you know, I like to bring people like on that journey for people that don't get to go run in mountains every day.

But, you know, still like, you know, feel that in their heart and want to be out there. And, you know, just seeing a picture of a cool spot. I love to see it, so I try to throw something up. And we were talking about this before we turned the mics on, but Southern California has a lot to offer in terms of the outdoor experience. I mean, it's very easy to kind of think of L.A. as a sprawling, you know, highways and all that kind of stuff, and it certainly is that, but, you know, you can find these incredible places. I remember the first

time I went to Mount Baldy, which is just outside of, this is a little bit further down from, from where you're running. And I'd lived here for years and I was like, what, this place is here? Like, I couldn't believe it, you know, Baldy's incredible. It's's it's my favorite run here it's just such a classic route you know uh hard steep um you know rocky in sections and you know you get to the top and you're just on top of the world around here it's it's beautiful and the mountains just you know go for just unending they just keep rolling and going and there's trails all around so you know wherever you are in la there's all these really awesome places even you know where we are now in Malibu the canyons here these are the mini mountains though they're

mini but you still can get some good running yeah so I have a lot of friends that live down here get the runs on and then get you know their bigger runs when they want to when they want to be men they go out your way right yeah exactly but taking it back to high school I mean were you uh like a popular kid? Were you like known as like a sports guy or, or, you know, what was kind of like your social scene? Yeah, I was, you know, in the mix there. I was like friends with everyone. I was like, like you mentioned before, I grew up very, I have a very Christian background. My family were really into that. And I spent a lot of my childhood growing up going to church things, missions trips,

and, you know, just trying to please my parents and enjoy that and had a lot of good friends through that. And then through high school, you know still was um pretty religious and so i didn't go out partying or anything so i didn't have you know those type of friends that you you kind of have but i was still like included in the circles and during school just because i you know it's fun i had a good time and then i was in all the sports so um and the group that i was in we just all um very collected group that we were kind of, you know, dabbled in everything and were friends with everyone. And it was a small school.

Right. Yeah, I had a good time in high school and it was a good place to grow up. And it was nice to eventually move on and find, you know, explore the rest of the world, explore mountains. Right. But I feel like, you know, this exploration that you're on really was forged out of, you know, some pain that you went through. I mean, at some point, this high school experience kind of transformed into, you know, a different, you know, path for you for a little while. And so, you know, I'm interested in what was kind of going on inside you that kind of led you down the wrong road for a little while. Yeah, I think after high school, I just, you know, wanted to find my own path and wasn't always making the

best choices. And some of the friends that I had were, you know, they were good people, had were, um, you know, they, they were, they were good people just kind of caught up into, in the wrong things. And, you know, I didn't just start with, um, you know, like smoking marijuana or drinking. It was kind of like, that was a little part of it, but it kind of, they, all the friends that I did that with were already into a lot harder drugs. So it just kind of was around me and I kind of got just in it fast and caught up in it quick. Is it like a people-pleasing thing? Like you're just in the environment, you want to be the guy everyone likes? I think so.

I think I was, you know, just really kind of, I was outgoing, but like inside I was nervous and like, you know, wanted people to like me, wanted to have fun. And as I kind of got older, I was watching everyone else have a good time partying. And I kind of wanted to do it but didn't. But I wanted to please people and go out to these parties. So I'd go out and then I'd try these different things and have a good time. And just kind of didn't want that high to go down. And then it just kind of kept spiraling.

Well, it's fun for a while. If it wasn't, you wouldn't get invested in it. You know what I mean? It's the thing that you always hear. It's like it works until it doesn't. And if it didn't work initially, then it wouldn't be something that you would pursue until you're in enough pain to realize that you got a little course correction ahead.

And that's basically what happened was just, you know, you, you suffered enough. And I think one of my biggest problem, like, was that I, you know, I kept going in it and I got, I got in trouble. I got, you know, caught with, with drugs, but, um, that didn't like stop me. I was kind of, it kind of made me go deeper and deeper in this hole. And I think one of the things that really got to me is I, I would kept judging myself through that. I can made these mistakes and then I, um, just really hated myself. I hated who I become. And then the only way to deal with that is to, you know, use more so you don't have to feel those feelings. That's the downward spiral in a nutshell.

And I got there, which is, you know, looking back now, I was trying times and, you know, doing stupid things, but also it's created the person that I am. the person that I am. And it's just kind of this, you know, this, you know, life is a beautiful mess and you, you know, you, you do all these different things that, that, uh, lead you to where you are, um, later on. And I'm, yeah, we have such a limited perspective on, on our lives in a given moment and, and the kind of impact of the decisions that we make. And, you know, we judge, we judge these things. We judge ourselves based on almost no information about whether something is good or bad. It's just our instinct to say, oh, this was a bad choice or a good choice. And I remember when I first got sober and, you know, I'd go to these AA meetings and some old guy would get up and he'd be like, I'm a grateful alcoholic. And I'd be like, what is he taught?

You know, like, what does that mean? You know, I don't understand that. But, I mean, it's essentially what you're saying. It's sort of being grateful for that experience. It's like that crucible of pain forms who you are. And that sets a new trajectory. It helps you learn about who you are, what, you know, what you don't want to be, what you want to be.

And, and, you know, your whole crazy adventure, I'm sure you could have never predicted it, but it was really kind of formed out of that. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure you could have never predicted it, but it was really kind of formed out of that. Yeah. Yeah. I completely agree. And, um, I'm, I'm really happy I went down that way. Like I, I love that statement, grateful alcoholic, because it's just, um, yeah, I was definitely addicted to things and, and making not the best choices, but it led to something so much better and led to me really striving to be the best person I could be. And, um, yeah, I'm, I'm happy with it. Right. That's good. And it was, it was, it was pretty dark, right? Like you went to jail for

a little bit. It was a long haul, man. Uh, and I think it was just the pain of watching other people suffer, like hurting my family through that was really tough. And I think that was like, you know, kind of after I hit some lows, it was just hating myself so much that I couldn't forgive myself. And I think when I finally like made that, that statement, like I forgave myself, I think that's like when the, you know, the tears really started coming and I was able to just like just just really get raw to myself that um I forgive I forgive you and that's a really hard statement to do to to a friend to someone an enemy to yourself um and but that's the path to freedom yeah yeah once you did that like

you know just that whole weights off and it's you know you're not worried about what you did in the past you get to live in the now and and just be you know present and not worried about what you did in the past you get to live in the now and and just be you know present and not worry about what you did back then or what people think of you it's just you know you get to be yourself and it's a good feeling it is it is really annoying though that you have to go through things like that in order to have that realization like why can't we just be blessed with that innately you know i think the whole time I growing up my mom always said you know I always like to put you know my my hairy toe across the line and I've kind of continued that my whole life and it's probably something I should should work on but uh I don't know I mean putting your hairy toe across the line is is you know probably part of what propels you to the

success that you've had as a runner yeah I like I like going to the edge. It goes, it's the good and the bad man, you know, um, is that, uh, is that, you know, when you kind of look back and you kind of consider that, that experience and, you know, I was reading, um, I was kind of reading up and getting ready for today. And, uh, the article that really, I really enjoyed above all the other stuff was the piece that you wrote for, I run far where you really just told your story, you know, firsthand, like, and, and told it the way that you wanted to tell it. And it was beautifully written by the way. I love that. Um, that's much more, I like reading stuff like that much more than like a race report. Like I felt like, uh, this is the guy, you know, this is the real

guy, you know? Um, but you had this shower episode, right? Like this is, this is kind of your low moment. This is your moment of awakening. And I was reflecting on that and, and, and, and it, what I related to about that is this idea that, and this is something I talk about a lot is that our lives can be oftentimes boiled down to these very specific moments where, you know, something clicks and we make a decision to do something different or new that may be, you know, it can be very dramatic, like I'm not going to take drugs anymore, but it can be something small too, but it sets us on a new trajectory. It can be something small too, but it sets us on a new trajectory.

And how I think we all have some form of those in our lives. And the trick is to develop the awareness or to be able to be observant enough to see them when they're happening and understand how crucial they are and like how precious they are because they pass really quickly. Like, you know, if something intervened right after that shower moment, maybe you would have said, screw it, I'll do it later, and you'd be living a completely different life right now. Yeah, it's funny how each of those little moments just, you know, transcend to something bigger. And for me, there was like I wrote in there, I got done with a race um it was like

Lake Sonoma a few years back and had a good race and it was just kind of I kind of kept that all of the my past kind of hidden and didn't know how I wanted to bring that out and I was just having all these emotions just kind of pulling on my heartstrings and just like I just wanted to let it out so I just kind of started writing one day of just my true feelings and why I run and what brought me to this and I was going to just throw it up on my blog and I'm like well like you know maybe a thousand people read this I'm like it's kind of a joke so I'm like uh so I uh sent an email to Brian at Iron Far and um he was more than stoked to put it on and it was right right before a race that I was doing that weekend,

so I just kind of fell into this nice time, and it was this moment in my life, that whole, it's kind of when, I guess, my career of ultra running took off, but I was just really, I was, my inspiration was just really fed off of, you know, meeting a beautiful wife and moving to a really cool place where the mountains just really spoke to have our first son into our lives. And just realizing, okay, I've changed a lot of things in my life. I'm really becoming the person that I would like to be every day. And just still wanted to put something out there of why I run and what's brought me here. And so that was just a really pivotal point in my running career to just kind of let people know, um, how I came here and what, um, pushes me to keep going. And well, I would think it's, it's, it's even more than that. I

mean, I think it's emblematic of, of, you know, your personal growth because you, you arrived at a place where you were comfortable enough in your own skin to say, I'm going to put this out here. And that's being vulnerable. Like that's takes courage. It takes balls, you know, to say, I'm going to put this out here. And that's being vulnerable. That takes courage. It takes balls to be that honest and know that people are going to read that. It's a scary thing. I was so nervous when I sent it to him. And we were traveling to a race, and Krista kept reading me the comments there.

And I kept waiting for someone just to bash me because I was a douche back then. I was just living a selfish life. And, um, and then I got all these just responses. I wasn't sure how like sponsors would react and just how the community of running would react to me kind of spilling my past. And, um, I was just overwhelmed with the love that people, you know, showered and how it um yeah all i remember getting like letters from different sponsors and different friends and just nothing but uh we just appreciate you being real and putting your stuff out there and yeah it's the honesty man especially when it's coming

from athletes because people are so predisposed to think that anything that they're hearing or that they're reading about whatever athlete is exaggerated or trumped up because it's all designed to kind of uh enhance the brand or whatever you know and so it's such a breath of fresh air when somebody's honest in that regard and and people know that they can see that and they read that and they're like this guy's being real like people want to support that you know i'm not surprised at all yeah it was it was great the i ran that race leona divide it was like a day after that was published and like the whole time i was running it was like an out and back so everyone just seemed like everyone read it because everyone was like congratulating me like yeah you know oh man i got a story just like that and it was just

you know just inspiring to um have all these people open up to me and congratulate, you know, me and just, you know, just knowing that we're all, we're all the same. And especially, I really love ultra running for that, that reason, just this grassroots feel, these people that, you know, it doesn't matter how fast or if you're, you're hiking some, walking it, you know, just everyone's out there enjoying nature and having a good time. And we all run the same amount of miles, get to the and you know get to kick back and tell stories and it's a good thing it's an amazing community you know and i think that there's kind of similarities between the quest that you undertake when you set out to run an ultra or you adopt that lifestyle and kind of the search that you know a lot of addicts and alcoholics are on.

I mean, a lot of people fall into that because they're lost in their life and they're looking for, they're looking for comfort, they're looking for answers. And on some weird level, it's kind of a spiritual quest, I suppose, a very unhealthy one. And when you take that away, it's like, what are you replacing that with? If that, If that desire, if that internal drive for answers or kind of greater self-understanding is, you know, true to you, if it really does exist within you, you need a healthier outlet to pursue that. And, you know, ultra running, I mean, you know, I want to get into talking about, you know, you as this soul surfer runner because you sort of, you know, definitely deserve that mantle. But, you know, how deserve that mantle. But, um, but, uh, you know, how does that work with you? I mean, I'm sure that you get the question a lot, like, well, isn't all your crazy running or aren't you just being an addict about that?

And you just transferred all of that onto, onto running. Like, how do you feel that? Yeah. I, um, you know, you hear that a lot, especially about like ultra running because it's so long and it's definitely kind of an overindulgence of, of running. And did I switch from one addiction to the other? And, um, and you know, people can say that and I definitely run a lot, but, um, it's such a healthy thing to me in my mind. And as I go out and go for a run and, um, get to, you know, kind of go over different problems or things in my mind. And all of a sudden that, you know, those, those thoughts or those little problems that I had before kind of float away. And then all of a sudden I'm like in this, you know, just this peaceful meditative spot

in the middle of nowhere running. And, um, sometimes I go fast, sometimes I go slow and I don't really care. It's just, running just brings me to this most peaceful, blissful spot. So, and it's, I'm not doing it on drugs. I'm, you know, it's not hurting anyone that I feel it's nothing but beneficial to me, but I also think to others. And especially when I started, like, running, I'd normally go for a run, and then I'd come back, and I'd have my massage practice. And I was able to really connect with people and understand, you know, what people are going through, be compassionate about that.

So when I'd come back from a run, I'd be in such a, you know, good, peaceful spot that I was able to listen to people's, you know, what's going on in their life. And I have this problem from, you know, running or whatever. You hear so many, as massage therapists, you hear so many different things. And it was really, I think, beneficial for me to get into my own space so I could be present for them to help and talk to them through injuries or different problems in their life. And I always see it as like a huge benefit to the world. The people that get out and exercise in whatever form, being, you know, yoga or running or cycling or whatever, I think that people can consider it selfish selfish, but I think, um,

I think there's a really a lot of good people there and a lot of people that are helped changing the world by, you know, going out and having some exercise, breathing in fresh air and then coming and doing their jobs or taking care of their family or whatnot. Yeah. I mean, I think it, it's definitely a form of active meditation for sure. And I know that when I'm actively engaged in that practice that I'm a better person. I'm much more amenable to be around. That's for sure. And that feeling that you have when you get back and you're grounded, you're present, you feel good, you know, you're, you're able to be available to other people in a way that you can't when your mind is attacking you or your body doesn't feel good and all those

kinds of things that I start to feel like if I'm not out training. But I think for a lot of people, I mean, there's a lot of ultra runners that listen to this show, but there's a lot of people that have, that don't run at all, you know? And so when you say, well, it's just this blissful, peaceful state, you know, it's hard for people to imagine that when you're like, yeah, I got, and I run 30 miles basically every day. Like I think the, you know, what they imagine is some guy who's just suffering uncontrollably, like with every footstep that you're taking. Yeah. I love it. It's not, it's not suffering to me. I mean, there's definitely days I work hard and I'm, you know, putting in some good training efforts that are a little bit harder,

but a lot of it's just there's just nothing more I love than going out for a run. And then for people that don't run or can't and stuff, there's just so many opportunities to get out in nature, and I think that's what really um inspires me the most why I chose to be an ultra runner trail runner than running marathons or or you know different things that um I really appreciate connecting with nature and just the that really deep breaths to really get you know good and grounded and um and I found that in other, other ways too, just, um, like I mentioned before, like I think yoga is a really good practice just because it really grounds you, you get to get into your body. And I think that's what running is for me and other

activities for people, even, even someone who is maybe doesn't do exercise, but like as a painter or something, you know, or a sculptor really getting into it. They're just, they're really getting in touch with their body and really being, you know, body aware. And I think that, um, can lead to, you know, creating really cool things, whether it be art in the sense of making, you know, masterpiece or playing music or, or running, I think they're similar. Yeah. They're all there. Well, they're all different ways of getting present so that you can like open the channel. You know what I mean? That you can quiet that noise of, you know, what happened in the past and what's going to happen in the future so that you can just be open to what is happening in the moment running does that. I mean, any painter who,

you know, is really in the moment of what they're doing or is doing their best work, you always hear them say, well, you know, I don't know. It just came out of me. Like there's no, there's no thought there. The thinking mind is, is, has gone away. They have like those like kind of out of body experiences, like where you're just so self-aware, you're not even, you're like, you know, you're up here watching what's going on. And I think that's what happens. And I think that's what yoga, yoga really is.

That's what yoga is really about. I mean, yoga is about undertaking these postures so that you can quiet your mind. It's not necessarily about the physicality of it. The physicality is a means to develop tools to greater control your thinking mind and allow your consciousness to take the stage. I think. Yeah, no, I like that.

Yeah. So back to, you know, back to kind of like the timeline. So you have this, this epic shower. I wish I was there to witness that. It was good. Tears and all. Um, but that, that kind of leads you to take this road trip. I mean, there's other things that happen in between, but that's this road trip

where you kind of just, you and your dog just take off. This is where you kind of start to, um, tap into that love of nature and how running connects you to nature. into that love of nature and how running connects you to nature? Yeah. Um, both of those are just really huge, like I said, huge moments in my life where I was just kind of like decided I was over the point of, um, you know, wasting my life and wanting to do more. And, and then, um, I kind of went from transforming my life to being something better and stopping drinking crazy and, and, um, drugs and, and whatnot. And then I started coaching and coaching was, I think, um, kind of the precursor to before taking this really epic road trip and, um, started coaching. It was just really, uh, got into that really, um, sharing, um, that, really sharing my excitement with the kids.

And for those kids, they weren't really into the sport, but they just were doing it. And I made it fun for them. And that was like this turning running again into this joyful experience where I was just having fun with it. I forgot about how many miles we were running or the workouts we were doing because we just, we were having fun with it. And that's the key. That's not really part of the equation at most high school cross country teams. Yeah, no, no. And it should be, especially in high school. I mean, gosh, that's, you know, a kid's need and there's so much life to go and you know have pressure and all that you know high school is a time to really develop yourself and and I

wanted to be there for those kids too because I made so many stupid choices after high school I was like they were right in the spot right where I decided to be kind of stupid and you know just I think hearing someone else go through that but then back to where I was and I think hearing someone else go through that, but then back to where I was, I think it really encouraged some kids in the choices that they were making down the road. And maybe I got to kind of go through some things to help them so they didn't have to go through that. Do you stay in touch with any of those kids? I do via Facebook, yeah, a little bit. And I always love when I get like a little

message from them, you know, congratulating me on my running. Cause it's, um, you know, they, they inspired me to get running again and I don't know where I would be if I didn't, um, you know, wasn't accepted to coach at my local school and, um, and get into those kids' lives and, you know, and grow my passion for running again. Because then from that, I did some, you know, did a year of coaching that. And then I wanted to really go explore the world. And it kind of led to me wanting to explore it through, you know, running. I didn't run crazy miles. I never even heard of ultra running when I first took my road trip. But I basically just, you know, kind of jumped from one park or place to camp to the next and um found whatever trail I could go on and go for a run and got to explore you know

basically the going towards west so the west coast and um you know further west you get you're like I need to get out of Wisconsin yeah I love I love Wisconsin. I feel bad, but, you know, they don't have mountains. And, yeah, it was just this, I think this awareness, too, that, like, I watched all my family in the town that I grew in. Everyone kind of just, they're very loving of their community and the people, and they wanted to stay there. And I think that's great and, you know, respect if that's a choice that you choose. But I really, I had more to discover. I really wanted to get out and knew at any time I can always go back.

I get to see my family and friends all the time there, and maybe not as much as I would living there, but they still play a huge role in my life and continue to. But I really wanted to see what else was out there. And what's going on with the parents at this time? Parents are, my parents are incredible people. They, um, how many kids do they have now? Cause, um, a couple adopted kids like in the Philippines, right? Yeah. Well, me and my brother are, um, you know, blood, um, the kids kids but then we have two awesome sisters adopted from the philippines and um at two different times um they're you know they're not um biologically siblings but um but

you have more you're not sure maybe you have some more brothers and sisters you're like how many do that's the thing so that's i don't even know because um my parents got into foster care kind of towards as I was leaving, you know, when I was like 19, 20 or so. Right. So they had a few foster kids come in the house, and I got to know them. And I won't go into a huge story, but there's been a lot of foster kids that have gone in and out, and my parents are just such loving people that they've adopted two more of them. Oh, my God. Wow. Yeah, right. Two more.

And then three of them that they watched prior for a few years, and then the mother was out of jail, and then they went back with the mother, which was great, and things were going well, but then the mother got in her drunken drive-in and had to go back into the system. So those three kids are back with my family right now. So, yeah, I don't even know how many kids are in my parents' house right now. It's unclear how many kids.

That's just, I guess, to show you how, you know, the love of my parents. And when you were getting in trouble, I mean, how were they trying to manage you? You know, they had their, their good days and bad days with that. Um, you know, I, I definitely hurt them with, uh, just, um, you know, just lying and not being the person that they, you know, were hoping I'd be. I'm not, you know, a missionary somewhere doing that, which, um, you know, just wasn't my path and I, I needed to, to follow my own path. Are they cool with what you're doing now?

Yeah, they love what I'm doing now. They've come to some races, and they always cheer me on. They have so many kids there that they aren't able to travel as much as they would like to. But I think they're going to come out to Hard Rock later this year. That's cool. That's your big race this year, right? That's when I'm really, yeah, who knows how it will go. That's your big race this year, right? That's when I'm really, yeah, who knows how it'll go. But, you know, to run 100 miles on the San Juans with just views on, you know, and so many cool people.

And just the whole vibe around that race is it's not about racing. It's about just like this community. It's like the alternate community just getting together and just, you know, loving the mountains, getting out there and seeing if they can, you know, peacefully walk through those mountains without being just tortured by them. So I'm really excited for that. And there's some really good runners that got in this year. So it'd be fun to just kind of hang out with some good friends running those mountains and see what we can do. It's going to be exciting to watch you do that. Yeah. I'm, I'm, that's kind of been my training every day is, I mean, why, and why, how come no Western States this year? Cause, um, it's hard rock is a couple of weeks after that. And, um, my body just can't recover

within two weeks. You didn't want to go, go back and try to do it three times. No, I've just three times. It's just one of one of those um i've done this with other races too where it's just you know i've ran it i've loved it it's has a really special place in my heart but um and it's a race that i might do again someday but i've just uh i've had a good time the last few years there and really wanted to move on and try something else out and not really concerned about trying to go for a three-peat or anything like that. I'm really happy that I got two wins there. The first year I ran it, it was brutal, and then kind of figured out the course well and understood it

and had two really good years at it, and that was a lot of fun. Like I said, I'll be back to it it but this year i just wanted to try something different and didn't even know i was going to be and get accepted into hard rock so i had some other races that i might do um instead what do you mean you you didn't you didn't think you'd get accepted no i've tried this this is my fourth year trying to get into one western states two years in a row. Are they going to not accept you? No, they don't care at all. What's the criteria then? There's just a lottery and a thousand people go into it and they pick it out.

So it doesn't matter? Like your resume doesn't matter? No, not at all. Really? Yeah, which I kind of respect and like just because I've tried for four years. Another really good runner. You don't think there's any like hanky-panky with that at all to make sure they get a couple good guys in there what if all they got were like like all first timers or something like that yeah i don't know i um i there's i don't even

know all the rules to the the lottery because once you've done it for a few years um you get to come back and like the previous winner gets to come back. So last year's winner, Seb, who also runs on the North Face team with me, and he won it last year, set a really awesome time, and he's coming back this year. And there's lots of international runners that got accepted this year, which is, you know, normally you don't, you don't have that many top, top runners from, from Europe. So you never really know how the, the, um, the lottery is completely picked out because a lot of us really got in that are, um, you know, that have raced

before and are pretty competitive. And, um, so I don't know, but I'm just, for me, I'm just stoked that I got in cause it's after four years of trying to get in. And it's just, for me, it's the race in the United States that I wanted to run since I started ultra running and, um, one that I'd love to continue to run just, um, yeah. To take it back into kind of the early days of, of, you know, your adventures in ultra running me after this road trip and you meet your wife back in Wisconsin and you guys kind of decide you're going to embark on this life together and, and you start heading West and you find yourselves in, in Ashland. And I think that's another, that's another one of those like seminal moments in your life. Like you ended up

unbeknownst to you in this sort of Mecca of ultra running and, you know, before you know it, you're off, you know, on the trails with, with Hal and, you know, and some of the greats, you know, I think that must have informed like a huge part of this evolution for you. Yeah. For, um, good or bad. Um, you know, I rolled into Ashland, um, not having a clue what I was getting into. We were just camping at the hot springs in the town. And we really liked the vibe of the town and there's trails everywhere. And we just instantly fell in love with Ashland. It's, you know, if you haven't visited, go visit. It's an amazing place. The people are incredible there. And so we moved there and, you know, wanted to find some friends. So we went to the local running store, Rogue Valley Runners, where Hal owns the store. And, you know, they were just, they were amazing from the very beginning.

We were just looking for friends and they invited us to the Halloween party, you know, like a couple weeks after we moved there. And so we were instantly like, you know, brought into the group. And, you know, I wasn the group and I, you know, I wasn't a runner by any means. Uh, like, you know, I was trying to just do a, you know, an hour run with them and the group run and try to survive through that. So, um, they were super friendly. Who else is in the group run? Yeah. Oh gosh. So like you have like, um, Hal Kerner, so him, Ian Torrance, um, another legend in ultra running, running, the Skaggs brothers, Eric and Kyle, Jen Shelton. So, you know, like the whole Born to Run crew is pretty much living there. You know, Scott Jerk would come visiting every few weeks he would come through.

And, you know, the best part is I had no clue who these people were. I'm just like, yeah, they can they can drink well and they, and they, they like to run a lot. And, um, so I kind of, you know, And you're just out there having a good time trying to keep up. Yeah. I'm just trying not to die basically. That was the best part is like, you know, they'd invite me for runs. It's like, Oh, cool. I have friends that are wanting to, you know, invite me on the trails. I'll like this new town that I live in. wanting to invite me on the trails. In this new town that I live in, right? Yeah, it was fun.

And then we'd go for a run, and they're just laying down, just going up mountains so fast, and I was just holding on in the back, just wheezing and coughing up a lung just because it was ridiculously fast and hard, and I was not used to that at all. How many years ago was that?

Like five and a half years? That's not that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I got into this ultra running thing fast and yeah, just been going with it. Um, but I think it was a lot to just having, you know, that, that community of people that, um, you know, were willing to accept me into their group. And, um, you know, I'd ask them, uh, you know, a billion questions about running, go for a run with Hal and, you know, we'd be joking about normal things, but I'd and um you know i'd ask them uh you know a billion questions about running go for a run with hal and you know we'd be joking about normal things but i'd be you know kind of plugging away of questions about it and um i get answers here and there or no one's ever really sure what hal does for training but uh he does well for some reason um so it was just having, having those guys with such knowledge, um, was, um, was incredible to like fall into that.

And, um, and then that's when I started massage school in Ashland. And, um, so I didn't see them for a while cause it was like a really intense course. I was just, you know, I'd get up in the morning, go for the run and then there's classes all day. And then in the evening I would be practicing massage, which worked out with a lot of the runners, and why I turned into more of a sports massage therapist, because I'd have all these new buddies.

You had a built-in clientele. Yeah, all these new buddies were like, oh, you give free massage? You need to work on this? I have this Achilles problem, I have this problem. So it really got me into helping out sports injuries early on as I was learning massage. And then it just kind of progressed. And eventually, some people would pay me occasionally. And some people are still trying to work off the freebies.

But it was good. I would imagine at some point, though, this crew, this group is like, all right, man, time to sign up. Time to show us what you got. Right. Well, that was the thing. Like after, you know, just a little bit of getting into, you know, the running, running with them and they, they knew I liked it and was getting a little bit better, but then they invited me to my first 50 K and it was, uh, uh, they call them, um, a sofa, Southern

Oregon fat ass run. So it's like normally in January, kind of everyone has like this low key type of, not a race per se, but just a run somewhere. And it's kind of to shake off the cobwebs and get Christmas cookies off your belly and stuff like that. And, um, so they invited me to that. It was, and I didn't really know what I was getting into because, you know, I've ran, but I just didn't, um, respect the distance of, of, uh, 50 K. And, but I just didn't respect the distance of 50K. And so I, you know, came there with maybe like one gel and, you know, a water bottle, which was happy I at least brought a water bottle.

But it's an out and back, and you go 15 miles. And we did that at a pretty relatively, you know, pace. It wasn't too fast. But then when they turned around, they started really going, and I'm like, oh, I better stay with them. So we're going, you know, about three quarters of the way there. I was just, I couldn't see straight. It was, I think, the worst bonk of my life. It was just, I was seeing, like, had this tunnel vision.

I eventually just kind of crawled up next to a rock and just kind of laid there for a while. Yeah, no aid stations. No, no aid stations. Yeah, no aid stations. No aid stations. But just, again, the people of Community of Runners, as I'm laying there next to a rock, I still don't even know to this day who gave me it because I couldn't really see straight.

But someone, I just remember from God, like a cliff bar coming to my rescue. I'm like, okay, I will eat that and just shoved it in. And a few minutes later i could you know started to move and i eventually got to to the end there and and that's that's one of those things where when you're done with it you're either like okay i'm never doing that again or like all right like time to get rid of that was cool like yeah which just explains how weird i am because you know someone laying next to a rock ready to die, that's normally when you say, yeah, this isn't the sport for me.

And I decided, oh, let's, you know, let's try another one. So was it, do you think that that was a moment where you kind of made really like a formal decision? Like, I really want to pursue this. Like, I want to take this seriously and do it. Or just, you know, I want to do better next time. Was it still pretty casual? That was still pretty casual. I remember, um, doing that run, um, and runs prior to that, I brought a lot of like flashcards with me cause I was trying to learn all the parts of the body. So really running was like this, um, just kind of

connection as I was going through massage school to kind of figure out what my muscles were doing and get into my body more. Um, it's kind of when I started, I was, you know, meditating, doing yoga more and just really, um, figuring out myself and through massage school is just like a lot of, um, you know, still dealing with like pain from the past and I'm not, you know, still working no matter, you know, how much I say, I forgive myself. I still have, you know, those days where things come up and, um, and that was just the, the school there was great. The people there were, um, and the friends that I made in massage school are still to this day, you know, some of my, don't talk to them all the time, but some of my closest friends and people have had really, you know, heart-to-heart conversations with me.

And have, you know, heard my, you know, my past and my stories before I shared it with other people. And they played a big part of my life of just deciding what I wanted to do. And deciding to stay in Oregon and start a massage practice there. And just so many, um, really amazing things happened in Ashland. And part of that was just, you know, um, meeting a wonderful wife who, um, you know, had my back and let me, you know, really do what I wanted to do. And also just, um, you know, just kind of getting away from Wisconsin, even though I love my family, it was really, I went to this new place um with just

our car packed full of stuff we both of us didn't have jobs and like we're gonna we're gonna make it here and we had no clue what we were gonna do and um you know i i found us a place to live and um within like a week week and a half there and and then that the the landlord's like you have a job or anything i'm like no i don't have a job and he was like working for construction and building a house like i said i grew up yeah you learned how to do that as a kid yeah so i knew lots of like little things i wasn't an expert but he's like you know he was smart too he's like any money that this kid makes is gonna go right to his pocket so he's, you want to come work for me? So, you know, the first couple of weeks there, we had a house, I had a job and like, things just kind of kept falling into place. And, um, it was divinely guided, man. Yeah. It worked.

It worked out well. So when does the, when does the running become real? Like what, what's the moment where it clicks in and, and, you know, it, things kind of change and, and the running becomes a serious deal for you. I think there was like, there was two points that I things kind of change and the running becomes a serious deal for you. I think there was like there was two points that I can kind of remember. One of them was I paced my friend Ian Torrance at a first 100 mile. It was my first time pacing and had no clue what I was doing, no clue what like, you know, all ultras are crazy and hard. But like the 100 mile distance is, you know, just epic. I mean, it's just it's long

if you've never done that you just can't even know what it feels like to run 100 miles it's just you know your body should stop way before that and um it's just really cool to you know watch people go you know go through that and just you know you can watch through their bodies watching them the different emotions and i watched ian go through just you know, you can watch through their bodies, watching them, the different emotions. And I watched Ian go through just, you know, so much suffering and stuff, but he kept just working and was persistent through it. And I just learned a lot watching him. We didn't talk a lot through that. I was trying to help him not to, like, throw up and want to, you know, stop.

And I just, you know, I grew really, we had a good friendship, I think, through that. You know, going through something like that with someone is really cool. And for me, watching this all go on, watching him kind of, you know, fumble around on the ground. And that's kind of another moment where you should be like, there's no way I would ever do that. That looks just awful. And for me, I was like, I think I can do this. And I'd love to give it a shot sometime just to, you know, kind of test what I could do. And so that was a moment where I'm like,

I'm gonna keep working to train for a hundred miles someday. Um, and then when I did my first 50 K, um, SOB in, in Ashland, um, which I've actually helped race direct a couple years ago but that was my first 50k I ever did and did that and I think I was like third or fourth or something but I had some you know some friends actually I think Hal's

wife was like talking to my wife Krista and they were like you know Tim's pretty good at this he could maybe you know get a sponsor or something and that kind of relates. So third or fourth you were you don't first of all you don't remember right you don't remember whether you were third or fourth in your first hundred. No no. Most people would be bragging you know. I never like I've had really good racist good times but I've never really focused too much on the time or you know I'm just going out there to work as

hard as I can I like pushing myself but it's kind of funny even back to like, um, getting the Western States record. I really didn't know I was even close to the time until, you know, just like six miles before the finish that I could even come close to that. So I just, I really don't focus a lot on times. I still don't look at, like, look at a watch too much when I run and I just go by feel and I just push it till I, you know, as hard as I can. Well, I think ultra running in particular doesn't lend itself well to being too tied to the watch. I mean, there's so many variables at play. And if you start, if you start thinking about that, like it's too long, you know, you got to run where you're at or, you know, you're going to bury yourself. I think that's worked well with me because I'm just, I'm just focused on myself as I'm going. I'm like, you know,

what do I need right now? Let's breathe. Let's remember to enjoy this while you're, you're working hard. And, um, you know, you're just constantly taking care of yourself and figuring out, um, you know, what, what you need. And I think that for me, they're just, um, I don't need to concentrate on time. I don't need another thing bothering me what mile I'm at. I just need to keep moving forward and focusing on how I can do that as efficient as possible. Right. So how do you, you know, what are your strategies for navigating the pain or sort of breaking through those limiters or barriers, you know, in the middle of the night when, you know, everything's telling you to stop. Yeah. I really liked those points for some reason. Um, I think I like being challenged, uh, mentally, physically, and just like emotionally, um,

maybe through the different things in my, my past of like, um, I think, I mean mean why I made it because there was moments where I you know it's close to overdosing and what felt like you know wanting had those feelings of wanting to commit suicide and watching other friends you know get so low and I think just having all those different things in my background like I'll get to a low point in a race and be like, you know, I'm, I'm stronger than this. And I think why I made it, cause I've watched also other people, you know, take drugs and they're just, brains are just fried and just really deteriorated themselves. And, um, I should be right where they are. I should, you know, I, I should be dead right

now. And I, I think I just go to that, um, just that really gratefulness of, you know, I should be dead right now. And I, I think I just go to that, um, just that really gratefulness of, you know, how I survived through those different things. And I think about that in a race and I think of people that love me and, you know, are, are thinking of me praying for me. And I, I just really take a lot from that. And, um, uh, I find in racist, I really get to this, this sense of when, you know, a lot of times when I'm getting low, I think of, um, things that are like love. And I think of my family and, and things, and it just, it cheers me up and it gets me through those lows. And I think in any, you know, problems in life struggles, like, you know, you can either keep going down into that spiral of just darkness,

or you can think of the things that you're grateful for. In races, that's what I do to kind of get through. I just ran a race a few weeks ago and had some really low patches. It was just a hard race. It was early in the season, so I wasn't completely prepared for it. But all I could think about towards the end when I was really suffering and wanted to walk was my little boy Tristan is dancing all the time now. Me and his mother are not the best dancers. We shake our arms around a little bit, and it's not impressive whatsoever.

You're a Midwestern white boy. Yeah, for sure. I'm very white. And he drops it like it's hot, like, you know, butt down. Like, he's got these moves, and we do not have moves. So we're not doing, you know, I don't know where he picked this up. He's just, you know, doing his own thing. But it just makes me laugh just so much inside of just thinking the different moves that he does.

So those are the things I think about that kind of motivate me as I run. And then when I think of those, I get so happy that that's what I think about. I don't think about, like, how can I catch the next person? How am I going to win this race? Which could come up in the mind, and the ego always can play a factor in that. But I love that normally towards the end and the hard parts of races, I think of family and friends and just things that bring out love and happiness to me. And I think that's what, um, motivates me

to push through some of those hard times. That's beautiful. Uh, so basically what you're saying is you tap into gratitude, feelings of love. Yeah. And do you think that the kind of day in, day out consistent active meditation aspects of, of running allow you to access that more easily? You know, it's sort of like when you're meditating a lot, you're able to kind of get into a certain state of consciousness with more facility, right? Yeah. I mean, it's hard for most people to – you should be grateful. It's like, well, people don't have any idea how to do that. Like they realize they have things in their life that are good, but, but how do you,

you know, how do you tap into that? Yeah. I, it's a, it's a great question. I don't know how I do it. Sometimes I've just been doing it for so long. I think now that it's just like, um, you know, something I had, I definitely practice that. It's just like meditation. It's not something like you just do it and it's going to happen. Like you're going to have frustration. You're going to, you know, people that meditate, you sit there for a minute and all you keep thinking about is, you know, the bills you have to pay or this or that. And you get so frustrated with it. And, you know, maybe the first 20 times it's terribly frustrating, but then all of a sudden

that, you know, 21st time or something like that there's that that aha moment where it's just like all of a sudden you have this you know rush of feeling through your body where you can all of a sudden you're feeling all your senses you're you're really in tune with yourself and all of a sudden you're not even thinking about what you had no thought for like a minute and um and i think that's kind of with the gratefulness thing it's just like i um you know at first i would you know think of things i was grateful for like ah you know everyone's got family or someone that loves them or a house and then you think that like a lot of people don't have these things and um you know are really searching for things to be

grateful for and i'm i've been so blessed my whole life to have so many things around me that I'm grateful for. And, um, sometimes I forget those and, um, you know, sometimes you're just supposed to remember them on like Thanksgiving or, you know, day, but I, you know, every day should be gratitude day. And the more you can kind of tune into that, I think you can bring that out in the hard times and just like, you know, meditation. And so when you're in a traffic jam and you're, you know, you're pissed that, I think you can bring that out in the hard times and just like, you know, meditation. And so when you're in a traffic jam and you're, you know, you're pissed that this car pulled in front of you or whatever, you're going to be late for this. If you can like take a moment back and take a, you know, a breath and think of gratitude or, or, you know, have, have different little triggers like that, you can really change your whole life.

And, um, it's something I still struggle with. Um, and, um, yeah, it's like, it's, it's true. And it's so easy. I mean, it's so hard to do, right. But it's easy to, and it's a practice, you know, it's something you have to always be aware of and working on. Yeah. But I think that's, you know, back to the, just forgiving yourself and just not judging yourself. It's just, you know, when, when you're trying to meditate and you keep thinking about something, it's okay. Just be okay with that. Like, that's just how it is right now. And then move on and, um, and you know, or, or during a run, some runs are great and some runs are really hard to get through and, you know, just be grateful that you got out there and got to go for a run. And, and then, then those runs that are just epic and, you know, the, you're watching a sunrise or sunset or, you know, you see an elk, you know, out there or something like that,

just, you know, just blows you away. And, um, yeah, enjoy those moments just as much as the hard ones I was running on, you know, on the, on the one today and, you know,, like so frustrated as cars are zooming past me, I'm like, you know, that's okay. I was like yesterday I was running in huge mountains and like it's all good. It's a different experience. What do you think is driving all this? Like what is it that's motivating you to continue to push yourself to greater heights with all of this? You know, now that I've been doing it for a little bit longer, it's just kind of seeing where this takes me.

And I'm really just enjoying the journey and, you know, just trying to be kind of real through it. You know, lately we've been, um, traveling a lot and I have my, my family and, um, it adds a whole different, uh, different thing before when I just, you know, I'd go to work and then I'd go for a run and, you know, just kind of balance that. And now I'm balancing more and, um, I'm just, I'm really grateful that I, I get to do this. And, and then now that, um, I have more people that are like following my running and getting inspired by that, that really inspires me because I get so many cool comments that, um, you know, I saw your picture from on Instagram the other day and it inspired me to go for a run.

And, um, I just signed up for my first 5k because I saw you're doing this. And I just signed up for my first 5K because I saw you were doing this. And I think that's really motivating me right now because I really want to see, you know, people get psyched about something, be passionate about something, whatever it is. It doesn't have to be running, but I love seeing that fire in people's eyes that they're really, you know, into something. And for me, it's running, but it's also, I think it's through my running, it's inspiring other people to do things and find things that they love to do. And I hope I can, you know, keep kind of being a voice for that and for people getting their, you know,

you don't have to be a kid to get outside of nature. Kids do it really well and very easily, but know hope to encourage people to get their kids out but also just you know to get out themselves and to remind us that it doesn't you don't have to be a kid like this idea that you're grown up now and that's kids business and that's what kids do and that's not what grown-ups do is you know i say kids of all ages because it's, you know, no matter what age you are, you should be a kid at heart. And it's nice to have a kid because it kind of shows you how to do that again and be a little bit more free.

Well, and so much of it, so much of your story is really kind of tapping into that childlike person, you know, sort of trying to access that, which, you know, you intuitively were, that you gravitated towards as a kid. You just loved running, which you intuitively were, that you gravitated towards as a kid. You just loved running, you loved being outside, you loved sports, and then you took a different path for a while, and this is about kind of recapturing that and embodying that in a new way.

Yeah. So I hope I can keep encouraging people to do that, and then as I keep moving forward, just kind of seeing where it goes, and hopefully I'm still kind of like searching for the right thing, but have a foundation or for something that I can do with my running. In two weeks, I'm doing a run for my friend who lives in Hidden Hills for an MS run and multiple sclerosis and just kind of awareness of that. And they're going to run across the country as a relay. Oh, wow. And I'm just going to start.

Who's your friend in Hidden Hills? Shannon Faragree. Oh, yeah, I know Shannon. Yeah, yeah. Great lady. That's right. She was recently diagnosed, right? Yeah. No, she's had it for for years but then

she had she had jet um her her younger son and that put it in remission okay and now it's kind of come back full on right you know she had a really hard time at bad water this year yeah so she's working through that and wanting to you know and um bring more light to to that subject and um trying to find a cure for it. And it's something I have an aunt who has MS, and it's something that, you know, just, you know, it hits me. It hits home. And so I'm going to be a part of that and just kind of start that off, but I'm kind of seeing what else I can continue to do with that.

Right. Well, the service part of it is huge. Yeah. I think it has to be kind of connected to that in some way. Yeah, yeah. So I'm kind of just seeing where that goes and want to find something that really pulls on my heart. So going back to the career and the races, going into Western States in 2012, I mean, you know, where was your head at? I mean, certainly you weren't anticipated to be the victor, let alone set the course record by like, what, 20 minutes or whatever it was? I mean, what, you know, where were you, where were you thinking you were going to end up in that race? I had confidence going in there. I was just running

really strong. It was a lot. I was going to have a, I was going to have a son like two months later. And for whatever reason, that just inspired me so much. I was just, me and my wife were just getting, you know, the house ready and doing all those things. And I was working really hard because she was going to school at that time. So I was working like three jobs at one point just trying to get, you know, pay the bills. And so I was just really, I was just really hungry. I was just, you know, really working hard and running, working hard in life, really stoked to have a wife who was sacrificing her body to have a kid. Things were going well, and they were both healthy. So I was just really amped about that.

My training was going really well. I had some good runs before that. I was running with Hal some. And Hal was just like, he could just sense something about me at the time. I was just really in tune with everything. And I remember going out. We went out with some friends for some birthday or something. And there were some people visiting, a friend of mine from France.

And that person was asking Hal you know who's gonna win it and stuff and i was just overhearing this i was having another conversation but how was like i think tim's gonna win it he's just on and like i don't think just having all my friends all these people have my back and like having how who's just such an amazing runner a legend in the sport like you know telling other people that I think Tim's going to win it, like just gave me this really big confidence. And, um, whenever I go into race, I'm very confident in like, you know, I know I can work really hard and do that, but I always feel kind of like an underdog feel like, you know, I'm, even if I'm picked to win or

something, I don't, I don't see that at all because there's just so many talented runners out there. I'm an okay runner, but I don't have the talent that some of these really amazing athletes have and that they've shown in college and high school. I'm just really passionate about it and love it. I think in 100 miles, that's kind of why I've done well at that because that's what comes out. It's this, you know, this passion, this, you know, your, your heart just kind of being laid, laid out there. And I feel that's what has really come out in a few of my races and why like this year, I'm just kind of focusing on, you know, one or

two of them. And like right now, hard rock is kind of this main one because you can put all this training and, you know, you can put all this training and you know you can do all these things to be prepared but like you just need to be mentally and and just you know just ready to put it all out on the line and um in that race in 2012 i was just you know i was just ready for anything just um really really present really focused really um ready for whatever the day brought to me. And it was a crazy year because it was like sleeting and raining on us. And, you know, no one ever thinks it's going to be cold at Western States.

It should be, you know, 100 degrees. So I wasn't prepared for that. But, like, you know, people were getting hypothermic. People were like, you know, I couldn't feel my hands for, you know, the first 15 miles of the race. You're like, I'm from Wisconsin. Yeah, I'm like, yeah, I've got Wisconsin blood rushing through me. Yeah, this is going to work to my advantage.

No problem. I think that's one of the best things you can do for ultras and life in general is just be adaptable and roll with whatever you're given. Well, I think that you – I mean, one thing about your running is that you seem to be – you seem to understand the importance of patience. I try to do that in, in every race that I tell myself that, you know, it's like, you know, the mantra going through my head as I'm feeling good and wanting to go harder. I'm like, you know, there's still 80 miles left patients, just, you know, relax, um, get into your body, feel what's going on.

You don't need to push it right now. So patience is a huge thing and something I've had to learn time and time again. And a kid has made it even better because he really brings that to light. Right, yeah, I want aspects of not just running but life and how important having all of those things dialed in is in terms of performance in your training and your racing but also contentment and satisfaction in the other areas of your life. I mean, if you're, you know, you're, if your marriage is off the rails, cause you're training all the time, then you're probably not going to be in a good mental state to perform in a big race, right? Like, so with all the extreme training, you still have to, everything has to be working

in balance, right? That's, you know, life in general, but I, the goal is trying to keep that balance. So, you know, it's why right now in our lives and it changes people ask me my, like my training, what I do. And I've had so many different realms of training right now. It's, it's really got into a nice flow of, you know, we get up and play with Tristan in the morning, spend some time with him, go to farmer's market, go to the park. And then he's going to take a nap 12 or one or something like that. And that's when I go out for a run. Um, and then I'm back by the time he's waking up and, um, and then we, you know, we flip that around a little bit cause Krista loves running too. So she's been really cool lately and letting me kind of, um, you know, being very selfless, letting me do more of the running, but try to

get her some runs through the week too. And, uh, we did, she has a, you know, a date with a girlfriend in the morning. So they take off early and I watched Tristan for the morning and then she comes back and I go for runs. We just learn how to balance it. Um, it's good. And you just, I mean, that's a relationship is having that balance, that communication, um, and just, you know, just being selfless for each other. How, how else has Tristan changed your perspective on your racing, your running? It's harder now sometimes to be competitive, I guess, to have that fire because I just want to go hang with Tristan. He's just such a huge part of my life, and I think about him a lot.

I think it hinders me a little bit because some runs I go on, I'm just kind of thinking, oh, I just want to get back and go with him. But then also, on the flip side of that, I'll be doing some really hard workouts. It's funny, but I'll be charging up a hill and just going to where I can't even really see straight and I'll be thinking about him then. So he inspires me to push it. And then even before he was born and stuff,

it's just been this thing like I'm going to be a father, which is a crazy thing to go through when you actually think about it like that you brought a kid into the world and you're you know you're you know hopefully trying to you know have him have a good life and you know basically it's you know just trying not to to hurt him you know through the process not to well also I think when you're out running too I mean this is your career this is your you're a professional you know and if you're going to be out there spending that many hours instead of home with him, like you better make it count because this is how you're, you're going to be providing for him. Right.

When I'm slowing down and like, I'm out here for a workout today. Like, you know, you got to take some days a little bit more relaxed, let the body recover. But some days, you know, you need to be going, you need to be training hard and because it's my profession now. And I think about them like I'm, you know, I could be home now playing with him or I could just, you know, work my butt off here so we can continue to live how we're living right now. Right. And, you know, that brings up another interesting thing with this this idea of rest and recovery and when to kind of put the brakes on a little bit. this idea of rest and recovery and when to kind of put the brakes on a little bit. And you're a guy who I understand you don't like work with a coach. You don't have like some hardcore plan. You don't wear the garment. So you're not on training peaks obsessively staring at graphs, right?

So how do you gauge, you know, where you are? Like, how do you, you know, navigate how you're feeling and adjust your program and know when you need to back off a little bit and have the confidence to rest. Cause I think, you know, navigate how you're feeling and adjust your program and know when you need to back off a little bit and have the confidence to rest. Cause I think, you know, rest is a discipline, especially when you're, you're running this much and, and the, the races and the distances are so long, you feel like you need to be like always going, right? Yeah. It's, um, it's a really hard balance. And I think, um, a coach would probably be good at some point, but, um, I really like doing it my own way. And, um, I think it's working out all right.

Yeah. I like it. I, you know, I'm just, for me, I really like just running up and down a mountain every day. And, um, I've been blessed to live in cool places and right now living in SoCal and, um, just love loving it. I'm running up, um, Wilson or Baldy pretty much every day. And that's given me, you know, 5,000 feet of gain in like seven miles, which is pretty epic

for training. Like you can't really, um, not a lot of people I don't think do that regularly. And, um, I don't think so. You're probably, you're probably the only guy. So, but I'm just, I just love it. I just love getting to the top there. How many miles is it up and how, and what's the gain? It's about, about seven, seven miles or six and a half or so with about 5,000 gain to, to Mount Wilson.

And then Mount Baldy is like 5,700 and about the same thing. Um, and then you higher elevation. So, which is great for some of the races that I'm going to be doing that I need to build to run at a higher elevation. So just living in a great place to train right now. And, um, you know, it's sunny all the time. I mean, my whole life I've always been running in snow through the winter.

This is the first time I've, you know, I'm getting, yeah, way too tan for like this time of year. I'm normally like, you know, super white. So it's, it's been really fun to kind of um you know be running in the sun um but in terms so in terms of rest and recovery though like how do you how do you gauge that so i mean that's something i really get into my body and like for the most part try to know when to shut it down my wife will yell at me too which helps a lot but you know, just the other day I was, I ran up, um, Mount Wilson like every day of the week. And then the day that I didn't run up it, I ended up doing 30 miles with a good training buddy, um, Dominic Grossman who lives in SoCal here. And, um, and he wanted to

go run the next day, the Sunday. And it was kind of, I went for a long run the day before, um, and just wanted to spend some time with family and, you know, things were sore. I've been running, running a lot. I think a lot of times people push through that and like, you know, I'm only gonna, you know, I'm only going to win this race or I'm only going to PR if I, you know, push through this and, and some point, you know, sometimes in training you need to push through barriers, but sometimes you need to like be, you know, self-aware to like take it point you know sometimes in training you need to push through barriers but sometimes you need to like be you know self-aware to like take it you know rest let the body recover and um i don't do it all the time but i'm trying to get smarter at that but you know i just took a

day off running and i normally not one of those people that likes to take a day off i know take a day off but but like it's not a big deal like just take a day off and hang with the family, read a book. It's great. And so I'm trying to just listen to my body. And I think I've done that since I started running. And I've had little injuries, but I've been able to really take care of those. And even some days if I shorten or run up a little bit, if I'm not completely feeling it,

or shorten it up and just get back and start doing some self-care through some stretching or yoga or self-massage. I try to incorporate all that. And more so now you learn little off-balances or different weaknesses in your body. And trying to figure those out, like you're having a knee problem and a lot of people just go right to the knee and try to figure those out, like you're having a knee problem and, you know, a lot of people will just go right to the knee and try to, you know, figure that out. And maybe if I just,

you know, fry the heck out of my quads, I'll loosen it up and my knee will feel better. And, you know, it's good to loosen up everything around it, but there's so many other factors that could play in. Right. You don't, you have to understand what's, what's causing that to begin with. Yeah. So I, I try to get regular body work. I haven't as much lately because we've been traveling so much, but I really try to get good body work. So it's not just me doing it. I have other people like helping me out and, and just, um, and then finding those things. Like I didn't notice that, like I have weaker glutes on the left side and it's probably causing some things to happen with my, you know, with my leg and my knee so i'm trying to do more um strengthening things for for the glutes and and then you know also as you start doing that don't forget the other side

because you know you're just like you're just if you concentrate just on one thing oh that's great maybe you you kind of resolve that issue but then something pops up yeah of course you're always trying to realign some lack of symmetry yeah yeah so Yeah. So I think it's just, you know, the more you can get into your body, be self-aware of that. And, um, if you can afford it, some body work is great. Do you go, do you go to the gym and do you do like core work and all that? I mean, what are, what are the other kind of cross training things that I'll go to the gym? I mean, more of my core work is all at home. So, um, you know, again, Tristan is a great weight for like some crunches or sit on, put on my back and do some, some pushups and stuff. Um, so a lot of those things,

I'll do some band exercises and just, um, you know, some little things like that. Normally during the off season, I'll try to do a little bit more, um, gym stuff where I normally take a month or longer off of running. and then I'll just do like some cycling and some some weights and um yeah and just I mean even um there's different things the North Face has been doing this thing called mountain athletics which is kind of like a you know a crossfit or just kind of a way to to get you um to strengthen all those little intrinsic muscles and your your joints and with pounding nonstop on your joints, running up and down mounds all the time, you need to really strengthen

all those. And, um, and so, you know, doing different things of, of squats and, um, and burpees and stuff like in the gym is great to strengthen things. And, um, and if I, you know, I didn't do it this year but like skiing you find you know if you find other things that you really enjoy to to get outside but strengthen strengthen right right right and how has becoming a north face athlete sort of changed how you're able to do what you do well they're huge because like i you know couldn't do it without them they're um they're the paycheck so yeah it yeah, it's amazing. And they

got my back. I mean, it's just like, you know, they're different races I get to go to the traveling. It's been, it's been huge and it's a good, you know, good people to work with. And a lot of my teammates are like friends that I've had for years. I really support their athletes really well. They've been, they've been really good. And like the person who manages me, Lisa me, uh, Lisa's just great, you know, super friendly and, uh, really cares about us. That's the other thing I think, which sometimes can happen with other companies is like, you know, they just want to see results. They just want you to, you know, have 20 races a year and win, you know, win them all. And they don't care about your body. They just want you to win for that year so they can, you know, put you, you know, use your image and your, your victories. But, um, I've noticed through, um, these couple of years

working with them that, you know, they're more concerned about, about me and they, you know, they want me to be healthy. They want me to take care of myself. They, they understand when I say no to, to going to this trip because, you know, I've been traveling here and there and I want to spend time with my family or, yeah, I mean, I've been traveling here and there and I want to spend time with my family or. Yeah. I mean, I think it doesn't seem to them like it's about podiums. It's really, they're in it for the long haul. They seem to pick people that they can work with over, you know, many, many, many years. And it's about kind of creating a lifestyle ideal out of that person.

You know, and you look at the client, you know, like Conrad Anker and like these climbers, you know, or Dean Karnazes. It's not about them being the best in the world. It's about them spreading this healthy message of adventure in different and interesting ways. They're truly just passionate about the mountains and exploring them and trying new things, being, you know, innovative with their products and, you know, with their team. And it's a really fun group to be a part of. And I'm going to, like, the Athlete Summit here in a few weeks where I get to meet, you know, a lot of the team and a lot of people that are in, you know, in running just kind of have, like, they go to their team kind of summit and it's just a few runners and stuff.

But I go to a summit and, like, I'll these crazy you know like just soloing just crazy stuff and that guy's ridiculous yeah just amazing um there's just so many like you know you sit down at the table and you're looking at these athletes and you're just in awe of like you know what they do and um being a runner i always kind of like well i don't even belong with some of these amazing athletes like conrad anchor just like i just met him a couple weeks ago great guy and uh yeah he was really really cool and i i got to hear his story and it's amazing yeah very touching he's a savant in what he does you know yeah it's interesting um i mean speaking of you know but they're looking at you in the same

way i mean that's the funny part is that they that's when i like the first time i met some of them like yeah but you run 100 miles no one can do that like you're crazy and like it's funny that they think of me like you know they look at me like how i look at them where i'm just like there's no way i could solo that like i i get up on a ledge and i'm like you know i'm only 10 feet from the ground and i'm scared and terrifying yeah alex know, I'm only 10 feet from the ground and I'm scared. And terrifying. Yeah. Alex is like, you know, 2000 feet from the ground, like, you know, holding a piece of grass on a cliff and like, that's, yeah, that's his hold.

It's, it's wild. I mean, speaking of like the highest performing athletes in particular and ultra running, I mean, killing Jornet is like setting the bar, right? Or, or blowing the glass ceiling on whatever bar there is. I mean, when you look at a guy like that, I mean, what's the difference? Like what is going on with that guy that makes him so good? Well, I think, uh, you know, it's just been his whole, his whole life. He was born in the mountains. He's just been, you know, just raised in the mountains he's just been you know just raised in them he's super passionate about it and it was never he works really hard and like you you read

his book and stuff he wants to win win things but it's just like a deeper thing than that it's like you know like me he just wants to push his limits and explore it but he's just on this other level that's just um you know just getting in the mountains he just wants to do things as fast and as efficient and as light as possible and he just doesn't have there's no bar there's nothing that's you know impossible for him and um but he's just the most humblest guy in the world i've got to spend lots of time with him and just the most humblest guy in the world. I've got to spend lots of time with him and just the most chill, you know, dude,

just kind of hanging out. And, um, you know, you look at him, you talk to him and you have, you know, a cup of coffee with him hanging.

You wouldn't think like this guy could, you know, go up the Matterhorn and in two hours, it's just, it's just sick what he can do. And, um, I think he's just,

um, he really is passionate about what he does. He loves it. And he's been doing it from an early age where he was, you know, and he was like, I think there's stories of him when he was like 18 months, like going on five hour hikes with like a pack on and stuff. And that's just ridiculous to think about because he's just been training his lungs to just be, you know. His lungs like take up his entire, you know know they go from his throat all the way down to his groin yeah and and he's just yeah he's just done that and then the skiing i think is just huge for trail running it's something i wish like i uh i grew up skiing too but i grew up

doing it in wisconsin so you know you go down this like 100 foot drop that's wisconsin skiing and he's going down like these you know just narrow right like just insane same things and learning how to kind of free fall through the mountains but being control your body is such um such a talent like he's just even when he like to some people might look out of control he is so in control of his his body when he's descending yeah when he's descending and and that's just huge. Because people can work really hard to go up a mountain. You just keep practicing that.

Just keep charging up and you'll keep building that capacity. But being able to float down a mountain so effortlessly and just like an animal that just moves so effortlessly. like an animal that just moves so effortlessly, doesn't have to question where it moves and where it makes that imprint. It's just so solid, and whichever way that ankle's going to turn, you just roll with it. He's just been doing that for a really long time,

and he's just dialed it in. It's really inspiring to watch. I love getting to watch him do his thing. Yeah, I it's it is it's like watching a gazelle or you know he's just born to do that yeah and i'm sure there's some level of fearlessness too with being able to do that it's like a tour de france cyclist you know barreling down the alps in the pouring rain or yeah you know like i mean you have to be fearless in those moments and um you know just really go for it and he's good at that and yeah

and such a good ambassador of the sport he just you know what really go for it and he's good at that and yeah and such a good ambassador for the sport he just you know what he just win like a national geographic like adventure of the year which is just incredible that um that he got that honor and you know just there shouldn't be you know there isn't a better person that could have got that he's a really downright dude so and in describing him you're talking about him just going off and and running without bringing anything with him and all that kind of stuff. But, I mean, I really see you in the same way. I mean, back to the Instagrams, it's like you're going out on these really long runs.

You don't really seem to be bringing anything with you. And it's emblematic of, I think, a greater sort of lifestyle ethos, which is this pretty minimal way that you live right it's very you know it has its sort of thorough-esque you know light you know road less traveled aspects to it where you know you it's not about possessions or any of that it's about being with your family and having this adventure and living in all these different amazing places and being able to experience that and being able to be fluid with it and not like locked down yeah i think um you know life can be pretty simple if you let it go that way and if you don't get too overwhelmed with with how it goes and um trying to simplify things down

to you know just the essentials i think is a a really great way to experience life and to experience the mountains as well. Because for me, I go out there and maybe I only bring a little bit with me, but it's just all I need for that time. By the way, people are going to kill me if I don't ask you what you eat. Yeah, I just like killing. At least on the run, when you're training and when you're running. On the training, I, you know, I do it different all the time, but a lot of times when I go for a run, I'll just bring like one gel or like a nut butter packet. And, you know, I've tried other things, especially for training, because I tried to be more like you know i like to eat

really whole foods and eat really good healthy things and as best i can and so when i got into to running more i was like i don't want to put this you know maltodextrin gel in my system and um and so i practice with a lot of like and still i use like nut butters and stuff but like i use dried fruit and stuff like that and and that works and i'll do that for um more mellow runs and or like um when i ran around um mont blanc with my wife we kind of went from hut to hut and that that instance i didn't use gel much just because i was um i wasn't going at a huge effort that i just you know have some nut butters i brought like some beef jerky with me and, and that worked well enough. But when I'm training hard, I, I definitely will use gels, but you know,

I'll go for a six hour run and use one or two of them. So like 200 calories. And I think calories for a six hour run. Just kind of silly, but like I start off my day. How are you not like transparent? I eat, I eat a lot when I get home. Maybe that's it. Well, I think that's a thing, though, that people think.

Like, oh my God, you must waste away into nothing. But you didn't just wake up and have the capacity to run six hours on a daily... This is something that you've built up to for many, many years. And you adapt it, you know, the, the amount of, the amount of the, the tax that, that you have to pay for doing that is so much less than for somebody else on their journey towards working. Like when I first started that I, you know, would eat a lot more and it's just kind of, I kind of kept just seeing what I needed and then that's what I'd bring. And, and it's also just, I keep teaching my body I've experimented with with food for many years because I think after you know the those years of destroying my body just having you

know alcohol and drugs and eating crappy food I really wanted to you know turn my body around and exercise is a great way to do that and mentally you know meditation stuff is good but you really need to you know your foods your medicine so you you really need to put good stuff in there. And going through massage school, again, is where I got to talk to, like, a naturopath for the first time. And he was just giving me lots of advice. And I really, like, tried a lot of different things. You know, I know it's pretty cliche and outdone now, but like one of the first things I took out was gluten. It's like, you know, pretty much.

Yeah. You're gluten. You've been gluten free for a long time. For years now. Um, yeah, like four, four or five years. And, um, there's just something that worked for me. And why I did that at first was my, my wife has a rheumatoid arthritis. So, and she was on a pretty nasty medication and, um, and we knew it, it wasn't at that moment, but we knew we wanted to have a kid at some day and the medication she was on, we couldn't, you know, that wasn't, wouldn't be a possibility. So it was really trying to help her. And we actually got blood work done with her and found out things that she was allergic

to. And, uh, and for her, it was like dairy and gluten and eggs and, and a weird one, but almonds. And so we were like, uh, uh um so we took those out of out of the household basically and um and at first i was i was a hard one with the the like uh gluten because i i really enjoyed like an ipa at the end of the day or something so like you know i battled my demons through you know being an alcoholic and stuff like that but i feel like if you can you know have a glass of wine or something and and not over indulge i think it's fine and so

i eventually got to the point where i could um you know have a beer or something in the evening and that would be i wouldn't keep going and until my old god bless you yeah which is a very hard thing to do and uh um and i definitely you know have my moments where it's, you know, like step back and like, yeah, you've been having, you know, beer too much. But I've stopped beer a long time ago just because I didn't like what it did to my stomach. And now I'll have a glass of wine occasionally. But I, yeah, like that was just a really hard one to give up for me because I really liked it. I'm from Wisconsin. It's like, you know, cheese and pizza and beer.

It's like that's your diet. So pulling back from that, you know, once I started taking those things out of my system, I just realized how well my stomach felt. And then just over the years, I've been kind of just playing with it a little bit more. And I've just, I've been kind of more grain free the last few years. And, um, you know, it wasn't like this conscious effort to like go paleo or, you know, go low carb is just what works best for my system. And I, I try to preach that to, uh, you know, more and more people that ask me about my diets cause I found out things that work for me, but I think you really need to experiment for yourself and find out what's the best for you. And so, yeah, so like during running racing,

I eat pretty minimal, but also cooking is something we love to do. So like yesterday, I got home from a run, and we're hanging out. We have some family here in town, my brother and sister-in-law are in town. And so we made like some tacos and, um, um, and so like, I've been working on this thing. I think I put an Instagram up the other day or something, but making some cauliflower tortillas and, uh, you know, I love them. They've been, I i've been really i've been trying to dial that

in for a few months now and finally i kind of got uh it's tough to get cauliflower to do what you wanted to do yeah it totally is but i've been having success like the last couple weeks i've been just eating you know cauliflower like crazy um and it you know it works well and it's fun to experiment i mean that's what i like doing with cooking i love you know, it works well. Good stuff. It's fun to experiment. I mean, that's what I like doing with cooking. I love, you know, spending time cooking with my wife. And we both have different things. Like she can't eat those because there's eggs in it, and she's allergic to that. So try different things that might work.

And then you should just use, like, a regular corn tortilla. Right. And I'll use my thing. But, yeah, it's been fun. tortilla and right and i'll use my my thing but uh yeah it's been it's been fun and uh it's you know fun to keep learning how to fuel your body and and trying to get the best foods for right that's good i mean what so when you have like in your water bottle though when you're is it just water just water yeah i um a lot of people use different you know their electrolyte drinks and stuff like that and um you, I'll put salt on some

food, so I'm getting some, some sodium and, uh, you know, I'll have a green smoothie. So I'm getting, you know, just lots of different, um, you know, all the things that you need. So I, I really feel like my body's getting all those things. I normally, after like a run, I'll, I'll make up a green smoothie or maybe in the morning, too, we'll make one up. One of us will make it. Tristan just loves it. Pretty much, that's how he gets his every morning. We like to do probiotics.

He loves his little pill. I'll put it on his green smoothie. He just loves it. He thinks it's the most amazing thing ever. That's amazing. Yeah thinks it's like the most amazing thing ever. So that's amazing. Yeah. It's, it's good. Um, good way to start them early, getting some good stuff in his body and, and he loves it. So I, we make our own like little food pouches and, um, again, we'll use some green smoothies, put them in the freezer and then we'd go like to the beach today. And he's got like a little green smoothie pouch that like unthaws on the way here. And then he's got a cold

little drink on the beach. So it's a, that's good stuff, man. the way here. And then he's got a cold little drink on the beach. So it's a, that's good stuff, man. I like that. And it's just refreshing to hear, you know, the whole food message, you know, in whatever form that that takes for you or resonates with you. And, you know, I see when I go out running, I'm sure you do. I'm sure everybody does, you know, people that are out for like a three mile run and they're just armed to the gills with like gels and drinks. And, and it's, to me, it shows me how powerful the marketing is of all these messages that are like, you know, you don't take one step outside your house unless you have, you know, Cytomax or Gatorade or whatever form, you know, it doesn't matter what it is like something, you know, that, or, you know, or you're never going to make it, you know.

It's funny to see people, you know, hiking up and down because it's like they just came straight from REI. Like, the tags are still on their big, huge packs, and there are different water things, and you're seeing different food pouches and stuff hanging out every corner, and they're, you know, just going up a couple miles and back down. They're carrying a lot of weight. They could probably just carry a little bit less i mean it's good to be prepared it's the mountains sometimes people need to get all that stuff though it gets them out there yeah so it's like whatever gets you out there you know what i

mean so but i think that the message i was trying to convey was more that you know this idea that that you know you need all these nutritional products, uh, or somehow your body is just going to dissolve, you know, 30 minutes after leaving your house, if you're exercising and, you know, I've fallen prey to that myself. When I first started doing all this stuff, I had all kinds of crazy stuff. And, you know, over the years, it's been a slow process of weaning myself off of that stuff and seeing how I felt. And I realized like, I don't really need all this stuff. You know, there's certain things you need or it's fine, but, but to be a little more conscious or judicious about what those things are.

Yeah. I think I've also, with my diet, I've kind of taught it how to use fat as fuel too. I, um, you know, like I'll start up in the morning and, um, I'll have like a little scoop of like coconut oil and maybe some almond butter or something like a little scoop of like coconut oil and maybe some almond butter or something like that. But I'm, you know, getting some fats in there right away. And, and then I, um, and then I go for a run and I normally don't have anything. Well, and your, your, your training is aerobic zone training. You're burning your, you're burning fat for fuel, you know, as a natural, you're not like going and doing, you know, a hundred yard sprints a hundred times.

Yeah. It depends what you're doing too. And, um, yeah, for like going those longer distances and, and stuff, I think you really need to tap into that fat storage. Yeah. And I think the, that endurance training enhances your, your body's ability to utilize those fat stores for fuel. And the more efficient and adept you get at that, the longer you can go without having to bring stuff with you. And when you use calories you're using them strategically so like you know like you you take a gel and like you're able to use that and use it more efficiently than if you're just someone who's really dependent on it and you know some people are putting down three four or more hundred calories you know an hour trying to you know because they they just

they get a little um once you start you got to keep going once you start that yeah so it's i try to keep them you know pretty low and even sometimes i'll only have like a half a gel and kind of stick that back in in the pocket and like i you know just gave a little bit of sugar in there um the brain's not foggy you want to have good mental focus especially when you're running down mountains and you know every step is kind of critical to keeping your teeth. And, um, so I, you know, I haven't lost any teeth yet, which do you know other runners that have, uh, I've seen some people pretty banged up. I haven't, there's definitely been a few people that I've seen some good chips in, in the teeth and, um,

apparently I'm probably just not working hard enough that I have all my teeth. You're not risking it. Yeah. Yeah. What about shoes, man? Like there's this weird thing going on right now where, you know, border run comes out. It's all about like barefoot running. And then this whole minimalism thing, you know, creeps up and everybody's wearing those like zero drop shoes. And, and then all of a sudden, HOKAs appear. And it goes completely in the opposite direction. When I was at Crude at Badwater, everyone's wearing HOKAs. So where do you fall on that spectrum?

I think it's been funny to watch throughout the years, and even more fun when you get to work at like a running shoe store through the process. I got to spend about almost a year working at Rugby Runners a couple years ago and just it was just kind of like a side job as I was doing my massage practice and stuff still but during one or two days a week I'd work there and it was great because you know you get to just you get to watch how people make their decisions and you can you can help them out too which was great because, you know, you get to just, you get to watch how people make their decisions and you can, you can help them out too, which was great. Especially during that, the time where it's, you know, going from, you know, zero drop, super minimal shoes all the way to the hokas. And it's fun to watch that, the pendulum swing. You know, you just keep watching it.

It's just kind of over the years, it's at this, this point and then it swings up this way and then it swings a little bit and just it'll end up right back in the middle it's just you know how it how it's supposed to be um and for me i you know i've tried a lot of different shoes um and a good part about being in running and um and working at a running store and stuff you get to try lots of different things and feel what you like. And, um, and I've definitely, you know, tried different things where even, um, cause I've, I've dealt with like plantar fasciitis for a while,

which was really annoying and having different issues. And, um, you know, a lot of little spider tech on you right there, don't you? Some tape on your knee. Yeah.

Yeah. These are, um, these are actually some, some patches. They're called active patch for you. It's this company from France and it's, um and it's kind of like an acupuncture thing. It's like this little chip in here to bring heat.

Oh, wow. It has little pins in it that go under your skin? No, it doesn't go into your skin. It's like a little ceramic thing with different minerals in there to kind of bring that heat to that spot. So it's just like I've been having a little knee issue going on. And again, I've been working on keeping the glutes strong. But it's just something that's bringing a little bit more, bringing the awareness to me into those areas. But also there's bringing a little heat there.

So we're getting a little bit more circulation. And I feel it helps a little bit. I like to try a few different things to see what's like the thing that really works. Cause I don't, I'm not a person that just believes like one way is like, you know, live or die on acupuncture. Like that's the only thing I like to try, you know, lots of different forms of body work and self care and, and see what actually he was working, working. Yeah. And where, and where does that fall down with the shoes? Cause

I interrupted you. You were telling me about the shoes, um, like shoes, like I've done it all. Like even to the point where I was saying, like I had, you know, some plantar fasciitis once and you know, you can wear, um, like super feed or something, art support in your shoes, or you can, you know, be like veto that and you can go run barefoot and i've done a little bit of all because i really think running barefoot in little amounts can be a great way to strengthen um your feet but i you know it's also um the people that are wearing you know like five fingers on pavement and um you know running barefoot on trails yeah yeah i mean it's a good way to get glass stuck in there or they're, you know, like they're, there's so many different frames of people like, you know, being I'm, I'm nice and small. I'm like five, nine. So like, I don't

have a lot, you know, crashing down on my knees when I'm running. But if I was, you know, six, one, 200 pounds running down there. And then if I was running in five rooms, that's a lot of, you know, a lot of stuff pounding on, on your joints. And, um, so I think you just need to be really smart with the choices you make. And if you do go more minimal, like to do it gradually. And I think that kind of gets missed sometimes. And as people are just, you know, keep telling you, Oh, you know, where are these? And, you know, this will change your, your back problems and your knee problems. Um, I think you should look at the other issues. Maybe it's not the shoes, maybe it's, you know, wear these and, you know, this will change your, your back problems and your knee problems. Um, I think you should look at the other issues. Maybe it's not the shoes.

Maybe it's, you know, doing some other strengthening. Come on. It's the shoes that are going to fix me. Come on. If you're, if you're hoping the shoes are going to fix you, that's the whole other problem you got going on. But then back to shoes, I, um, I've got to work with being a few different companies over the years running. I've

got to really, uh, dive deep into shoes, which has been really a lot of fun for me when I first started with working with, uh, Pearl Zumi a few years back, I got to, got really close to the, the, the head guy in the shoe department there. And we just, you know, connected, you know, eye to eye on what we thought would be a good shoe. That was fun. It kind of got me started with working it. Then when I moved to the North Face a couple years ago, it's such a big, huge company.

I wanted to work with shoes, and I didn't think their shoes were at the best. I think there was a need for improvement on there and it's hard being the young runner who's just accepted the team and like come there and tell them like, you know, this, this isn't doing it for me. What can we do? And, um, and I, I took that stance. I, you know, went in there and said, this is just, you know, this isn't working for me. I'd really like to give my feedback and work and, um, and I was really happy with, they were, you know, really accepted to give my feedback and work. And, um, and I was really happy with, they were,

you know, really accepted to that. And, um, it took, you know, a few months, um, before like they eventually brought me in, but, uh, I probably had to write a few too many emails, but, um, you know, I, I got in there, I try to be, you know, super friendly and, you know, hearing their side, because people that are working in the shoe department know way more than I do I know what feels good for me I have you know my opinions but um you know they've really been doing it for years so I try to really be um open to what they're saying and then give my feedback and really talk it out um listen you know listening to each other and so this past um you know past six months now I've been really working with the shoes of the north face and they um they were coming out with something that it's kind of close to the ultra trail, which just came out.

And it's a shoe that I've been wearing more recently. And I, I'm always throwing like a different, like a top secret prototype. Yeah. I'm not, yeah. I always have like, you know, the prototype with the weird spongy foam and, and, uh, you know, I just doing all these little these little um little shifts in the shoe to make it exactly what i want and i'm really excited for where we're going here because we've we've switched the last round to give a little bit more um uh room in the forefoot and then adding just a little bit more cushion keep that drop i i like a a more minimal drop i don't think um i don't need a zero

drop or anything like that but but I, I like to have it a little bit lower than like, you know, 10 or something just so that, you know, the articulation when you're moving your foot is very natural. Um, I want it to be as natural as possible, but you know, I still like wearing shoes. Um, and when I'm running a hundred miles, that's a lot of pounding on there. So I, I, I like just, uh, you know, a good foam that's, uh, you know, responsive, but like for me, I'm running on trails. I don't need it as responsive as some shoes are. I like just a good foam that's responsive. But for me, I'm running on trails. I don't need it as responsive as some shoes are. I like a little bit of cushion.

Not like Hoka cushion. I don't like running on clouds or pillows. But it's been a really cool process. And looking forward to keep working with them over the years. And really stoked. I'm supposed to get a new one with all the changes that I've made in a week or so. So I'm really excited to test that. Yeah. Nice. Well, we gotta, uh, we gotta wrap it up here in a minute, but I can't let you go without, um, a final thought, which is, you know, you're a guy who's really living a life based on your heart.

You know, you're following your heart. And in many ways, it's a faith-based way of life where you're on this adventure, you know, that really is just an expression of what started out as this childlike joy, right? And most people, you know, they're not expressed in their lives in that kind of way you know so they're feeling stuck or you know they're in a job they don't like or maybe they don't even know what they're passionate about and they don't really know how to get off the highway you know where's the exit ramp or how can I start to you know access something in

my life that is meaningful in the way that running is for you so what kind of advice or you know, access something in my life that is meaningful in the way that running is for you. So what kind of advice or, you know, inspiration can you give to people out there? You know, one thing I learned in massage school that was just huge was just, you know, just knowing my truth. And, you know, a lot of people, you have all these thoughts, you want to, you know, you want to quit this job and it's a whole bunch of sacrifices, but it's this passion that you follow. I'm not telling you to quit your job, but follow your passions. Follow your heart.

We're blessed with this life on earth and this form that we're in right now. Take advantage of that. Like it's, um, it's quite the blessing to have. And, you know, I could have, I, I have, uh, a business degree in a minor in accounting. Go back to accounting. And I could go to accounting and like, yeah, I, and maybe, you know, I could have made, I could have made, it's, it's awful. I laugh at myself, especially now when I try to do some taxes and stuff.

I'm just like, I have no clue about that. My wife's like, you went to school for this. I'm like, yeah, I know. That was years ago. I lost that. But you need to follow your heart. And that's just what I've been doing. And you're going to have those struggles.

You're going to, you might fail at some times. And think of them as opportunities more than just a failure, you know. I'll let that, you know, push you to really work hard to give it your everything. And, yeah. I don't know. I think, yeah, I mean, I couldn't agree more. I mean, I don't think it matters think, uh, yeah, I mean, I couldn't agree more. I mean, I don't think it matters whether you succeed or you fail. What matters is that you take steps to bring more of

that passion into your life. And it may mean that you're, you can't quit your job right now, but there are always ways to, um, you know, explore those things, uh, that bring you joy in ways that don't mean you have to quit your job overnight, you know, and follow those threads, you know. And whatever you choose, you know, do with all your heart. Maybe it's not the job that you exactly wanted or think at the time. It's not. But if you put everything into it and you don't go to work every day, just bummed out

and that, but you go in there happy and like, you know, you're, you're whistling and you can make each moment the best moment. Back to the gratitude thing. Come on. It's a good thing. You know, it's just saying I read once, but it's just, you know, just each, you know, each moment's the best moment. And the more you, you think of, of that and not that this is a trying one or this is a bad day. Um, this is a trying one or this is a bad day. Yeah, I think it's just having that mental attitude as you go into things and in the hard situations, making the best of them and remembering to breathe, remembering to stay present in those hard times

and live inside your body and not out of it and in your mind. I think you can enjoy wherever you are. I think that's a good place to end it, man. I think we did it. Yeah. Did we do it? Nice work,

man. How do you feel? Good. Good. It's great talking. Cool, man. Well,

thanks so much. Uh, if people want to check you out, man, you're on Twitter at it's Timothy Allen Olson, right? What is it? No,

I got all kinds of things. So, um, Timothy Allen Olson, right? What is it? No, I got all kinds of things. So timothyallenolson.com is my blog and where I try to do reports. That's the main place. Yeah. And then my Twitter is timmyolson underscore run. Right, right, right. Yeah. Timmyolson underscore run.

Yeah. So I try to, you know, more this year I've been really trying to kind of give a daily type thing of just where I'm doing what I'm running. You know, I could write a blog post, you know, every week and try to bore people to death with my thoughts and stuff. I think you should write more. I love your writing, man. Well, thanks. You don't have to wait for a race to give a report. I do need to write more.

I get sidetracked with things. Yeah, playing on twitter too much but yeah i i try to like give some updates and um you know just trying to try to stay positive um as i do it yeah cool and so what's the next thing that's coming up next thing i will be traveling in uh first of may to um the Canary Islands again. Going to be living in La Palma for three weeks there. Running a race called Transvulcania, but also, yeah, no complaints. I think I'm going to be doing a training camp the weekend before the race, and that's what's helping me get there. And, yeah, they're putting me up.

And then we're going to stay there for a few weeks. So I'll make sure Krista gets some good runs in and, and then I'm going to hop up and down, uh, the last part of the race, which is awesome. The finish of the race is like 20 K down and you lose like 8,000 feet or something. It's, it's ridiculous. And the, it's, um, it's all fixed lava, but it's's you know, it's all over the place. So you really got to make sure you're going you're smart on the way down. So I'm going to try to run up that a bunch.

And then we're going to go to Colorado and hang there for a little while. Get ready for for hard rock. And then it's kind of we're going to settle down. We're going to find a good place to live and call home. And yeah, enjoy the day to day things of having a kid and, and enjoying life. Well, I'll see you back in Southern California.

It's, it's pretty nice here. Yeah. All right. Good man. Well, cool. All right,

man. Thanks a lot. Yeah, man. Thanks for having me. Peace. Pleasure. All right,

you guys, that's our show. I hope you enjoyed it. If Timothy doesn't motivate you to want to get out on the trails, feel the sun on your back, embrace the gratitude in your life for all the good things that we have, for the glass half full, then I don't know what's going to. But anyway, I hope you enjoyed it. Want to support the show? Best thing to do, man, tell a friend. That's all. Just spread the word. It's viral. This is about the people. So we appreciate everybody who's working hard to spread the consciousness of the message that I'm trying to put out there. So it'd be great. I love it when people tag the show on Instagram or on Twitter, just tag it Rich Roll

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out. So thank you so much for everybody who has done that. So that's it. I'll wrap it up by just saying if you want to check out, get some cool Plant Power provisions, go to richroll.com for that. We got t-shirts, we got beanies, we got trucker hats. Those are new, you guys. A couple of different kinds of beanies and trucker hats.

Lots more cool stuff coming up in development. We got the Plant Power t-shirts, of course, the cookbook, the meditation program, nutritional supplement products, and more cool stuff on the way very soon. You can read my musings on my blog at richroll.com and follow me on Twitter, Instagram. I'm at Rich Roll, all those good places. And yeah, I'm going to start doing videos. If you enjoyed the little trailer video for this episode, that was fun. I'm going to start making that a core critical

aspect of all of these shows. I'm really going to work hard to kind of expand the video aspect of what we're doing, which is really fun. So anyway, thanks for tuning in. I know you guys got lots of choices for your content, people pulling at you for your eyeballs and your ears. So I appreciate you tuning in and for listening and I hope you guys have a great week and can't wait to be back with you next week. Good stuff coming up. Lots of great guests. And that's it, man.

Thanks a lot. Take it easy. Have a good one. Peace. Plants. Thank you.