The Rich Roll Podcast - The War Inside: Combat Veteran Sarah Lee On PTSD & How Cycling America Saved Her Life

Episode Date: February 22, 2019

Imagine finding yourself in a place so painful, dark and hopeless that suicide feels like the only option. Welcome to post traumatic stress disorder. Few things are more important than mental health. Nonetheless, the World Health Organization estimates that about 300 million people worldwide suffer from depression. In the United States, anxiety disorders are the most common mental illness, affecting 18% of the population — 7.7 million of whom are afflicted by PTSD. Sarah Lee is one such individual. A former Army Sergeant and Operation Iraqi Freedom II Combat Veteran, Sarah experienced more than her fair share of trauma during her 2004 deployment. After 8-years of service, she retires to civilian life and begins to struggle mightily with re-acclimating to normalcy. Numb, she begins to withdraw from friends and family. Her only companion becomes chronic neck and knee pain. And her only solace the food she binges to salve her emotional wounds. 100 pounds heavier, she is then diagnosed with a potentially life-threatening, grapefruit-sized ovarian cyst. By April 2017, Sarah descends into a depression so bleak, she very nearly takes her own life. Today she tells her story — an inspiring tale of survival and service that begins with a bike However, countless who suffer from PTSD never find their way out. In fact, 22 veterans take their own lives every single day. The very day I hosted this podcast was no exception. On November 7, 2018, just miles from my house, 28-year old combat veteran Ian David Long was planning an outlet for the dark thoughts he couldn't shake. And just hours after Sarah shared her solution with me, Long succumbed to his pain. Pulling out a .45 caliber semi-automatic pistol with a laser sight, he opened fire on a crowd of 20-somethings gathered at the Borderline Grill in Thousand Oaks, killing twelve before fatally shooting himself. The confluence of these two events — and the disparity in their respective outcomes — perfectly underscores the severity of PTSD, our mental health epidemic at large, and the dire need for better diagnostics and more innovative treatment solutions for the untold millions who suffer. So let's talk about it. This is a story about courage. It’s about healing. And it’s about redemption. I'll let Sarah tell the rest. To view our conversation on YouTube, visit bit.ly/sarahlee424. And don't forget we're also now on Spotify. Peace + Plants, Rich

It had kind of come to a head, some of the guilt and depression, and I needed to do something to kind of prove to myself that I wanted and deserved to be here. I needed a big challenge to prove I was still capable of something like this. And it was very important to me to honor the friends I lost by living instead of isolating and not wanting to be here. of isolating and not wanting to be here. And then having lost friends to suicide, knowing that there's 22 a day that are doing this and that I was so close myself. It was kind of a personal, intimate testimony to that too. A lot of people didn't know that we were losing 22 veterans a day. It's a lot. It's so many. I mean, you fight so hard to get back. And I would describe it as the Warren side is just totally different than the ones we were trained to win. That's Sarah Lee. And this is the Rich Roll Podcast.

The Rich Roll Podcast. Hey, everybody. How you guys doing? What's happening? This is indeed the podcast. Welcome or welcome back. You are in the right place. So pull up a seat. It's cool. Get comfortable. You can come closer.

Come on, slide up. Get in the front. Get in the listening mode. Pay attention. There's cool. Get comfortable. You can come closer. Come on, slide up, get in the front, get in the listening mode, pay attention. There you go. Good. Because today, today we're going to talk about an important subject. We're going to talk about mental health. We're going to explore post-traumatic stress, PTSD, what it's like to be so at war with oneself, to be lost in such a darkness that suicide feels like the only option. And we're going to discuss the path to healing. And our steward for this exchange is Iraq War combat veteran, Sarah Lee. And I'm going to explain all about who she is and why. But first,

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saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care, especially because unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. It's a real problem, Thank you. to support and empower you to find the ideal level of care tailored to your personal needs. They've partnered with the best global behavioral health providers to cover the full spectrum of behavioral health disorders, including substance use disorders, depression, anxiety, eating disorders, gambling addictions, and more. Navigating their site is simple.

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Okay, let's get into it. Combat veteran, Sarah Lee. So Sarah is a former army sergeant who served eight years in the military, including a 14-month deployment to Iraq in 2004 for Operation Iraqi Freedom 2. After which she retires from the military. She returns to civilian life and then begins to really struggle

to reacclimate to some semblance of normality. She suffers from chronic pain. She finds herself increasingly more and more isolating from friends and family. She begins emotionally eating. She develops this grapefruit-sized ovarian cyst that leads to a full hysterectomy. It's basically one thing after another

until she finds herself 100 pounds overweight and descending into this very dark depression that becomes so bleak that in April of 2017, she very nearly takes her own life. And the absolutely bone-chilling part about our conversation is this. The very day, the very same day, in fact, at the exact same time that Sarah and I recorded this conversation, which was a fair while ago, it was the afternoon of November 7th of last year, several months ago, there just so happened to be another military veteran, a machine gunner who had spent time in Afghanistan, literally just miles from my home, just down the road in the next town over,

who was also suffering from some very, very dark thoughts. Sarah Lee found a healthy way out, a healthy way forward, but 28-year-old Ian David Long did not. Just hours after Sarah and I concluded our conversation and just 13 miles away, this young man pulls out a 45 caliber semi-automatic pistol with a laser sight and opens fire on a crowd of mostly 20 somethings, people just enjoying themselves at the borderline grill in Thousand Oaks. And he ultimately kills 12 people before fatally shooting himself. And I think the confluence of these two events really underscores and emphasizes the severe gravity of our mental health epidemic, that PTSD is a very serious issue. Somewhere between 11 and 20% of all Iraq war veterans suffer from it.

30% of Vietnam vets, something like 22 veterans take their own lives every single day, which is, it's just horrifically insane. War, of course, takes its toll, but I think it's incumbent upon all of us to better address the undeniably significant psychological effects that we ask our brave men

and women to endure. Sarah's healing begins with a bicycle. And this is a story about many things, but ultimately I think it's about courage. It's about healing and it's about redemption. And I think I'm just going to leave it there and let Sarah tell you the rest. Well, thank you for being here today. Congratulations on your epic bike ride across America.

Thank you. I can't wait to hear a little bit more about it. And explore the connection between fitness and adventure and mental well-being, which I think is super important. You finished the ride in July, right? I finished in September. Oh, in September. Yes, September 3rd. Oh, it's more recent

than I thought, wow. Labor Day. That's right. Oh, you started again, you resumed it in, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes, yes, I had to start again June 2nd. Right, well, you're here. We're gonna talk about all this kind of stuff. Your story's super inspiring. what you've overcome and what you

decide to tackle and kind of what I think, you know, is most important is what it means for the rest of us. So to set the stage, to provide a little context, why don't we go all the way back to the beginning, right? So you end up enlisting, right? At like a pretty young age. you end up enlisting, right? At like a pretty young age. Yes. I joined the Army National Guard at age 17. My parents had to co-sign. What was the motivation? Like, was that something you always wanted to do? I always wanted to do something like that. It was between the military or possibly the FBI. I looked into both and I just felt a little more of a calling toward the military. I always wanted to be part of something bigger than myself. I craved a challenge constantly. I played sports

and everything. And I really enjoy the physical challenge, the mental challenge, you know, to see how far I can push myself and push others too. Did you grow up in a military family? Do you have brothers and sisters? I have one sister. No, to answer your question, no. I have two great uncles that served. One was a full bird colonel in the Army. He's an intelligence officer, communications officer.

He actually participated. He had a hand in the moon landing. He had a signed thing from NASA and all these things. And it was amazing. He was very soft-spoken and didn't talk very much about it. So, I don't know a lot of the details. He probably couldn't. But aside from that, I don't know of any other. Yeah, it was just a thing. But it wasn't a shock, I don't think, because I was always very outdoorsy and I liked roughing. I liked camping

and being in nature, playing with every animal I could find. And it just, I was always fascinated by the outdoors and pushing myself in different ways. So, it just fit. It fit really well. And your parents were cool with it and everything? Yes. Yes and no. My mom couldn't sign it. She had my dad do it. She's like, I couldn't do it. I couldn't possibly do it. But they were extremely supportive and very proud like that's my ultimate goal always to make my parents proud and they've always been supportive of my dreams and everything like that so you grew up in ohio right yes yep north central ohio so once you sign on the dotted line like what happens how does it work well i was still in high school i had to wait to

graduate to go to basic training and so you go off to basic training and uh where'd you do that it was fort jackson south carolina and they kind of just break you down and build you back up which is a wonderful experience i almost feel like you get a huge you get to start life steps further just based on knowing your personal limitations or not knowing them or wondering if you even have them at the end of it. You're like, is there nothing I can't push myself to do? I don't know. It equips you with all these skill sets right out of the gate. you have to learn things very quickly and the leadership aspect stepping up and then the bonds you form

in there being kind of a team you don't really recognize color in a way except for you wear green and you bleed red and those are the only two colors that should matter and we're a unit and you jump in front of a bullet for one another. It's this really cool bond foundation and camaraderie that you gain right off the bat. You're introduced to all these things so early. I think it's something that we don't really have

in our culture with the exception of playing sports, which is a facsimile of that, but a situation in which the stakes are not nearly as high, of course. No, it gets intense with sport. It's a lot like sports. It's also a lot like, I think, the medical field, especially paramedics, nurses, doctor, the medical field. Firemen. Firemen, police. There's a lot of similarities between those careers too. And you really bond quickly over intense situations. I think that's what makes that bond so solid and so profound is the intensity of the situations that you're in.

And what is the bootcamp experience like in, you know, my only point of reference is what I see in movies and TV, right? Is it like that? Is it? You know, honestly yeah yeah pretty much it it really is there uh at least when i was in it may have changed i went to boot camp 2001 and uh they get right in your face and scream and uh now they can't you know maybe throw you to the ground and things like that or throw things at you but uh they can sling some pretty harsh strings of words. What month? I mean, was it before or after September 11th? Oh, I joined prior to September 11th, shortly before. So I'd completed basic and everything.

I was actually attending college when September 11th happened. And then they did the initial infiltration the next year 2003 2002 2003 i received a call to that my unit was going to be activated right so you're deployed to uh iraq yes for operation iraqi freedom yes 2004 for 12 months So explain to me that experience. Well, you grow up very quickly. I thought basic training shot me ahead, but I turned 21 over there. So you just have to figure things out really quickly. And it's actually amazing how fast you adjust to it and how quickly

the environment and the sounds and the smells all become kind of normal. And it was an intense year. It definitely was. And what was a day in the life like when you were when you were deployed? It varied. It did vary drastically. I would say on average, let's say when I maybe did guard duty on the perimeter or something like that, it was 12-hour shifts. I did the night shift.

And what's a shift? Like what are you doing on a shift? You basically, well, it's like a static, it was like static security. You'd sit with the M249, the squad automatic weapon, and there was different sites you would use with the thermal, things like that, because it was like static security you'd sit with the the m249 the squad automatic weapon and there was different sites you would use with the thermal things like that because it was night you would just you know make sure everything is safe no one's coming in and things like that and uh every day every day was different but the same but there there was always like the worry that either you would be killed

or your friends would be. So, it was very high intensity. I think that's a lot of why we remember every second of it. I think when your senses are all heightened, you absorb things differently. It's so permanent. Like, I can't remember what I maybe did a week ago, but I remember, you know know like every single minute in your head detail right right so um but yeah it was it was a very the year went by quickly you know and we spent so long downplaying it that i guess we just kind of made made make light of the deployment sometimes when we get back and things.

Because we don't really want to have to paint the picture for people sometimes. But as almost a survival mechanism for yourself, right? If you downplay it, then perhaps the toll it's taking on you isn't real. That is very true. Or isn't as intense as what is actually happening. It's like when you don't feel well, but you don't say anything and you can kind of control it or it doesn't become real. And then when you say something, it's like, okay, now I really don't feel well physically.

And maybe that's part of the fear of talking about some of the things is we don't want some of the, maybe the things we're dealing with to be real or, uh, yeah, that's a really great way to look at it. That's very true. And when you're there, I would imagine that you lost some colleagues, right? Yes. That was probably the, probably the biggest factor for some of my issues is, is the fact that we had to come home without everybody. I was particularly close to one of the soldiers that was killed over there. And so there's definitely an aspect of guilt that you carry. And some days are probably heavier than others, I would say.

And sometimes you don't think about it for a while and then you'll see something and you kind of, it really does, I think, build over time, which is a lot of, a big part of what led me to ultimately doing this cycling trip. I just, it was a combination of, do I deserve to be here or deserve good things mixed with feeling guilty about that because i'm not living and honoring my friend's sacrifice by isolating you know i began isolating quite a bit over the last decade i would say yeah and i want to really tied in i want to really understand um ptsd and how it impacted you and what it's all about. But I think it would be, I'm still trying to understand what you had, what you endured while you were overseas to help me kind of wrap my head

around what it would be like to come home and live with that. Like, were you on patrols? Were you like on the front, like, was there just constant bond? Like what, you know,

paint me the picture of like the experience of being in Iraq at that moment. Yes, it varies person to person. I think my biggest things are low, loud booms, I would say, because we would have, you know, mortars and artillery and stuff come in almost daily, close enough to where I would shake the buildings and things like that. On the base. Yes, yeah. I was at Camp Spiker near Tikrit, Iraq. So anything that's kind of like a low boom, I just kind of pause because usually it wouldn't just be one,

and you would just kind of pause and listen and wait and stuff. And then you get mad at yourself because you're home, it's not a mortar, Sarah, you know, like, chill out, you know. And other things, like in particular, my rotation, it was one of the first rotations with women. And there was a million dollar bond on the head of any female soldier captured. And we were kind of briefed on this when we got there. And so there's like an element of paranoia. And in the back of my mind, I think in the very back, because I loved everyone I served, I trusted them with my life.

In the very back of your mind, it's like a million dollars is a lot of money too. So it's like you don't know. Every time you leave the base on patrol or whatever you're even on there just even on the base because i mean we would have iraqis come in and do certain tasks on there right in the base and everything so is that was that part of trying to train the iraqi army so they could be self sufficient or not when i was there not where i. It was more kind of like different jobs around the base that they would do. So they were definitely intermixed with us here and there. And you're not, you don't, I mean, conceivably they're cleared somehow to come on the base, but you're always questioning, you know, dual motives or whatnot.

Yes, very much so. So I think the hypervigilance and that kind of level of paranoia, I would say, well, it's kind of a strong, I watch it, kind of watch everything, you know. That's another reason why I just started staying at home. Yeah, like hypervigilance, like you're super aware of everything all the time, which has to be, you know, very exhausting.

It's exhausting. That's a lot of why I started staying at home a lot too. I was just getting fatigued from, from all of it. And also. Was there ever a moment where, you know, you were super in harm's way? Yes, there was one, a rocket, like a full rocket came into the camp and landed in the front yard of the building that was typically, and I was a street back at the time and it was it was like the loudest thing that i could that i've ever heard i mean everyone people have taken roadside bombs right right next to them you know so that's that's different but that rocket coming in it didn't kill anybody miraculously it didn't fully detonate so they

had you know the the guys come in and disarm it and take it away and everything. But it came right in. There was a crater. I took a photo and video of it and everything. And I was like, this is the building I work in. Here's where the rocket came in. It's like right there.

But it didn't fully deploy, right? So what would it have been? It had it then. I'm trying to think the kill radius on it. It would have killed a lot. I think a lot of people had it fully detonated. But the crater itself was huge. It was the loudest thing ever.

So I think that's where the low, loud booms kind of bother me and stuff like that. Does that still happen? Like if you pull up to a car that's playing a lot of bass? No, if I know what it is, it's fine. I think it's just like, as fast as possible, figuring out what the sound is and what it means and things like that. If you can make sense of what it is, it's like, okay, fine. And usually you can do that pretty quickly, you know, just things like that. But yeah, I guess it's really a combination of these types of things and then kind of missing it also, the intensity, the bond over there that you form and you hold with these people.

And then you come home, and I had to play with the National Guard unit, the combat engineers. And so when we got back, we kind of went to our respective units. I got pulled from my current unit to go with this other unit, so I didn't know them. But I got to know them quickly and they were awesome. It was a really well put together unit. And so we got home and then went our separate ways. And so you kind of lose touch a little bit too. And so I moved down to Nashville eight years ago. And then I didn't see anybody I served with anymore. And so I also made the mistake of not becoming involved with organizations that were in place, like the VFW, American Legion, AMVETS, those sorts of things. I just didn't, I didn't do it. And I

think a lot of us maybe make similar mistakes, just not continuing to try to. Did you have a sense that you were suffering from PTSD or were you trying to pretend that you weren't or did you think you were fine? Like when you first got back, what was that, emotionally, what did that feel like? Like, did you feel like you were in trouble and this needed to be dealt with

or were you just trying to pull yourself up by the bootstraps and move on with your life? I think it was both, but it was a very quick out processing. They're like, are you good? All right, cool. Are you good? Okay, cool. And then we go home. I think I would like to believe I was fine and everything. I know I felt like maybe I didn't relate with people so much. And I also avoided questions, not because they were maybe too painful to answer or something like that. But it takes so much to even paint the picture and then go into the story or go into the experience, good or bad, really. And then you kind of only share some of those connections

with the people that you were physically there with. And so if you don't see them all the time anymore, you start to feel kind of alienated. And then you start isolating. I mean, a big part of that is a normal reaction, right? Like if you're in a super intense situation and then it ends, there's going to be an acclimation period to that. So the issue then becomes, when does it tip over into a persistent trauma that is festering beneath the surface?

When you explain that, I keep thinking about that scene in the Hurt Locker where Jeremy Renner is at the grocery store when he gets back. like at the grocery store when he gets back. And it's very simple in its aesthetic, but it's so powerful because you realize like he's looking at products on the shelf and he just can't relate to anything because he's used to a completely different way of living his life. And now suddenly like overnight, that's all changed.

And he's supposed to just acclimate to normal civilian existence. And of course that's you know close to impossible for a lot of people i would imagine for anybody really that aspect was very actually coming back and waiting in line at a grocery store and people complaining about standing waiting in line or or like you said those kinds of little things it's like do you know how bad it could actually be like do you have any idea how good you have it like those kinds of little things, it's like, do you know how bad it can actually be? Like, do you have any idea how good you have it? Like those kinds of thoughts come in, I think shortly

after you get home or right away. I think they kind of fade as you get more used to those comforts again, but you kind of, and eventually you almost kind of crave having nothing again. That's another reason why this bike trip was so amazing too, was the simplicity, the lack of things, making something out of nothing, having that challenge. And, you know, I think that comfort and convenience leave very little room for appreciation. And you really realize what you do have. I think the less you have, the more you feel you have or the more you're likely to give or something like that there's something to that well it's just weird confusing soup like i imagine because on the one hand you have this sense of gratitude for how good we have

it after having an experience like that and then at the same time to be suffering, I would imagine kind of enhances the feelings of confusion and guilt, right? Because you're like, it's so good and I'm back here and I'm safe and everything's fine. So why do I feel terrible? Right. Or I think one of my biggest problems that I was facing regularly was why am I here and my friends aren't? That kind of thing. Or it should have been me, that sort of thing. And you don't have to have been deployed to combat or even be a military veteran to understand that. That happens.

It can happen to anyone, anytime, losing someone. That survivor's guilt, they call it. But that was a huge factor for me, was the guilt of coming home without. We lost three so yeah so when you come back is there a process by which you are funneled through like the veterans administration to have you checked out to make sure that you're mentally sound like how does all of that work and how do so many people fall through the cracks? Like what is not working?

What's broken? And what would you fix if you could? Well, I think ultimately, I think it comes down to the person being forthcoming with some of the problems, but we don't tend to do that. And I know I'm trained not to complain. And I know I'm trained not to complain, you know. Yes, yeah, definitely. And so I think that they have a system in place, but maybe it's not as persistent. You know, if you have a conversation with a veteran, sometimes it takes several of those interactions to even scratch the surface of maybe what they're thinking or feeling, especially if maybe they feel like they could have done more

or should have done more. That's the last thing they want people to know about is they don't want to be judged for not having done more severe things, let alone have someone know that they have these issues based on having not done as much as they feel they should or could have, which is almost never the case. We all do everything we can. We follow orders to the best of our ability. We would never want to come home without anybody.

But yeah, the guilt aspect, I think, exists in every combat vet that has been deployed with a unit that comes home without somebody from every war. That's across the board an issue. Yeah. Well, the statistics are pretty shocking. Every day, 22 vets take their lives. I mean, it's so incredibly disheartening to hear that. And as somebody who has no military experience, my only basis of understanding is what I read in the news or what I kind of, you know, come across here and there. And my sense, and please correct me if I'm wrong, is that the Veterans Administration is overwhelmed. There's too many people. It's not adequately staffed. And soldiers either don't avail themselves of those services

or those services become, they're unavailable or they have to wait forever to get an appointment. And because they're overwhelmed, it's very much a way of just getting prescribed medication. So you have all of these veterans who are over-medicated walking around that then contributes to this opioid crisis that we're experiencing right now without really getting to the root cause or a healthy protocol for crawling out of this hole that so many people are experiencing. Yes, it is.

I mean, it's it comes down to either or it's mainly two things. It's an individual responsibility to seek the help and then having everything in place just so to facilitate the help needed. So I mean, do they have therapists and things like that? Yes, yes, they do. And how many people actually take advantage of that? Now, I'm not sure about that. I know that I personally went.

The VA has, I mean, they have psychologists, psychiatrists. I was never really into the one-on-one kind of counseling. Sometimes it's difficult for me to funnel my thoughts into words and everything and paint that picture like I mentioned. And so I'd rather kind of hang. I think it's the most helpful thing is to be around other veterans and socialize with other veterans. But if you're isolating, that's not possible. But back to the VA, they

do have that in place. They have counselors and a whole network of help for that. So while they do prescribe, they are, I think, quick to prescribe the maybe pain medication or like the mood lightener type of medications and everything like that. They also have all the other options in place too. They even have activities you can do. But yeah, that's there. I think it's really, for me, it was going, actually going there and admitting or that I'm doing these things feeling all all these things and all that i didn't want to because it becomes real like you said earlier yeah you know if you admit it then you actually have to confront it right and then there's labels on stuff and there's

categories i didn't want to be lumped into something it's like no i got this you know i totally i'm totally in control and that that control just, sometimes it just sneaks away from you. And then, you know, kind of a darkness kind of swoops in here and there. And that's kind of what was happening to me and what did happen, which is another big reason I kind of left on my journey. Right. I kind of left on my journey. Right, right. Yeah, I mean, my sense is that there are a lot of veterans who,

because they're trained to compartmentalize and sort of, you know, just take care of business, it makes it less likely that they're going to seek that help. And, you know, as you know, the longer you try to repress that kind of trauma, it's going to come out sideways one way or the other. It's either going to come in the form of depression or suicidal ideation or domestic violence or drug addiction or alcoholism. It will manifest at some point. And in your case, I mean, the gestation period was quite a long period of time. It's not like you wrestled with this right away. I mean, you just did your bike trip. You were deployed in 2003. I mean, it's been, you know, quite a journey for you to come get to this place.

I didn't really, actually, I didn't think I was wrestling with it. Like you said that the, I called my journey a vicious cycle because obviously it's a bicycle, but there's been these other, oh, thank you. But it's like, you know, there's all these other meanings that I've been through some vicious cycles. And it was a mixture of maybe, you know, bad decisions and really good decisions that didn't feel like fulfilling enough or feel like enough. What do you mean by that? Now, when I first got back, basically, I began eating, emotionally eating, I would say. And I totally abused food.

I really did. When I got out of the service in 2009, it became kind of an answer to everything. It wasn't drugs. I drank a bit, but it was the food. I mean, I equated it with every emotion. And it was my punishment, my reward. It was the food. I mean, I equated it with every emotion. And it was my punishment, my reward. It was everything. And I gained 100 pounds after I got out.

I read that. That's crazy. And yeah, that was definitely part of it, is I was this strong, capable machine of a person. And how could I let this happen? And it just spiraled down so fast. Now that I got a grip on. I met another combat veteran, she owned a gym, and she helped me lose, you know,

her workouts were basically boot camp. They were boot camp. Right. And I lost the 100 pounds in a year in 2012. By working out and just eating right and taking care of yourself. So you had enough sense about you to address that situation. What was going on inside emotionally? When I became heavier, took control of it.

Both. I guess part of it was the accountability both? I guess I didn't. Part of it was I didn't have to, the accountability wasn't in place anymore. I had, my neck started hurting about halfway through my deployment. I started getting these kind of shooting pains up the back of my head. And so it worsened more and more. My knees were pretty banged up from wear and tear and those were worsening too. What caused the neck pain? It wasn't an isolated incident. I don't know if it was the Kevlar, the bouncing. It just became really painful halfway through. And then I got some help while I was over there,

but really I didn't complain too much about it. And eventually it had become worse i was encouraged to talk about it with my leadership and everything and so they did an eval and ended up marking me non-deployable so i wasn't even able to deploy with my unit again that's why you never you didn't go back for a second tour right right i ended up getting i would have been a lifer i loved the military yeah it's i i've said before before, it's the one thing that's ever made complete sense in my life. And it's been very difficult to try to fill that gap since getting out. Because I really did love it.

It was definitely my calling. And your life's very regimented. They tell you where to go and everything is very structured for you. You don't have to really do too much of your own thinking. Here's what you eat. They don't encourage a lot of that, do no yeah no no and so um it's highly discouraged in fact yeah but no but i i got out i didn't have the accountability in place and uh it was it's such a normal social thing to do is eat you know but you can't hide it forever like some other things that you know

you can visually tell someone's got some problems. Yeah, and the weird thing is that you're somebody who was trained to be super disciplined, right? And you're all about that. And capable. Living in a very regimented way. And then that just falls apart. I was supposed to be very capable and strong. It wasn't ever a superficial reason for being in

shape. It was like, you're supposed to be able to do these things and do these things when needed and help others and keep others safe. And so I let that go and I just got really down on myself, obviously. And then I kept, as a reaction to being down it was food food so right but um yeah like you said i just i did those like a high intensity full body workout five days a week and just ate really clean you know no sugar lower carb lose the 100 pounds it takes like a year so you did it right you've kept it off um for the most part for the most you look great uh the but the interesting thing is that that didn't that didn't necessarily solve your your your major malfunction

which is addressing the underlying trauma yes right yes Yes. I mean, I'm sure it elevated your mood and helped you in many different ways, but it wasn't necessarily a cure to the main thing that you were contending with that was driving the emotional eating to begin with. Yes. I just, it was that lack of fulfillment. I think that sense of purpose that I gained from serving, I couldn't achieve it anymore. And I started a photography business in 2005 when I was still in Ohio, and I continued it to Nashville. And I had that, and it's going fine, too.

I still do it. I love it. And I like bringing that joy to people, capturing their moments and everything. And part of me is like, you never know when you're going to lose someone. It's really important to get these photos for these people. So that makes me do better at my job also. It's kind of a morbid angle because you never know when you'll lose someone. But photography became very important to me.

And it was a great outlet, healthy outlet, just like working out. outlet, a healthy outlet, just like working out. And I just, after a while, it just, my passion was dwindling from these things. Working out became a passion. And I actually, the reason I had to kind of stop working out is I had to have a major surgery in 2016. And so. Right. This is like a big deal though explain the company tell me i don't play explain the yeah i know come on we got time here i want to hear the details we kind of gloss over your deployment too like no tell us what it was really like like i know you get you were you were diagnosed with a grapefruit size cyst in your ovaries, right? Like that's no small thing. It was, yeah, it was, it was huge. So, but it was attached to one of my ovaries and

there was also a cancer scare involved. And so they said the best case scenario, the best case scenario, I would lose an ovary. The worst case is I do have cancer that have to do a full hysterectomy and then remove part of the lining of my heart and lung or something like that. It was really, it was so drastic. I had to sign off on all these different scenarios, but this was Thanksgiving of 2016. And so, I was in really great shape then, and I was helping other people lose weight. And my accountability was being there for others than helping them, and my accountability was being there for others than helping them, which was really important to me. I was helping others again.

And so I had this surgery. I had to, as soon as they found it, I had to stop working out right away. If it had ruptured, it could have been life-threatening. So I had this major surgery and the recovery, I have like a huge scar. I mean, the recovery was, is I think when everything kind of came to a head

because I'd lost all that weight. I felt like I was in a pretty good place. I was helping other people break out of their own prison because being heavy is a physical and mental prison. It really is. You're just trapped in your own body. And it was really nice to play a part in helping others with that. So I felt like I was giving back and helping in that way. And then I couldn't do that. And then

the recovery was very long. I couldn't sit up in bed by myself for a while. I mean, it was just, I just felt completely defeated. Like, why am I even trying? It's like, am I going to start at square one again? Do I really want to? You just kind of talk yourself out of life, I guess. What is that connection between PTSD and hopelessness? I think just that kind of a has-been mentality in a way where you were this, you almost felt like a god or something. Like you could do anything, like nothing could stop you. And you felt like you were really doing something important. You were making a real difference. And then once you don't have that,

it takes so much to achieve those things in your head. And once you don't really have that anymore, It takes so much to achieve those things in your head. And once you don't really have that anymore, it happens kind of quickly where you just, oh, I can't do this now. And so I'll become less active. And then, oh, my body hurts more because I don't have my muscle base. And then I'm depressed because I'm in pain. And then you just go down. It's a vicious cycle. Right.

Yeah. Yeah, it really is. So it's this downward spiral that happens very quickly. Before you know it, you're talking yourself out of having even people that are... Also, you don't really want to bother anybody with any of this stuff. Because you do think you can handle yourself at first. And then when you think there's a problem, it's like, no, I'm supposed to be strong for others. I'm supposed to be the rock and pull others over their walls. And I'm good at first. And then when you think there's a problem, it's like, no, I'm supposed to be strong for others. I'm supposed to be the rock and pull others over their walls. And I'm good at it.

We're good at being strong for other people. And so when it comes down to helping ourselves or spending the time on ourselves, I think it gets trickier there. We're not as good at that, I think. At least I wasn't. And to not have that bond, that connection, that camaraderie when you return. I mean, there's nothing, you know, you can go to the gym and help other people lose weight, but it's still, it's not the same. And then you pick a career that essentially has you kind of doing your own thing by yourself, right? Like you go and you shoot pictures of other people, but ultimately you're, it's like a

solo business person situation. So you're not a member of a team. You're not, you know, it's almost like, uh, and, and, and the sense I have is that you're lacking that connection, but rather than seeking it out in a healthy way, you're doing the opposite, like you're isolating further and further and further, which is only exacerbating the condition. Yes, and then instead of helping or making a difference anymore,

you're letting people down by coming up with reasons to not get together with them or not answering really messages as often, things like that, so then there's guilt compiles. I think that was the biggest factor for me is this underlying guilt and then this building guilt. Were there people in your life who were saying, hey, Sarah, I think there's something going on here

that you need to deal with? No one knew. Everyone was like, thought you were fine. Yeah, I had that on lock. Even when you gained 100 pounds? Now that, well, I dressed really well to hide it. But I thought I was just this master of disguise. And a few people said something,

but it was usually things that would make me just go eat more. Or they've asked, have you gained weight? I'm like, you already know the answer to that question. So I'm going to go get Taco Bell. But your parents weren't worried about you? I think maybe it just people didn't want to hurt my feelings or something, too. But they may have made a comment or two. And I, of course, talked my way out of anything being wrong. Or I just didn't want them to worry.

But it really did get. Was there a conscious awareness that you were trying to mask something? Or did you really believe that you were fine? No, no. I actually was. Maybe in the back of my mind, I to myself if i eat enough then i maybe it'll it'll kill me or something maybe uh and it almost i my cholesterol was in the high 280s or something like that it got pretty out of control with my health and um and you're in like your your 20s, right? I was 27, 28, 29.

And that's pretty young. But I'm really glad that I caught it. I think it came down to meeting the right people, too. If I hadn't met my friend slash trainer, I don't know. I don't know if I'd be here. I might have had a stroke or heart attack like they projected within five years. But your doctor was telling you to get it under control. Well, I wasn't going to a doctor. Oh, you weren't?

I hadn't been to a doctor in probably seven or eight years or something like that. So what was the impulse to seek out the trainer? Like, how did that begin? How did you go from? We met on a whim um in a parking lot and uh someone had been bothering her and i was staying with her while she waited for the police to come and that's how we met and so we got to talking she said she was a combat vet and i was like no way me too and and i was like uh she said she owned a gym she knew that i was not happy as a veteran who was

that size and she reached out she's like i have a gym here and I help people all the time. I used to be in the 300s myself, which was huge because she really understood that prison I mentioned. And she was a veteran and that's, it just came out, it came down to meeting the right person and letting them help, letting them help me save myself. That bond. Which is also a big factor in the bicycle trip too, is the letting people encourage you and support you and being open about stuff. Yeah, like first, like being willing to raise your hand and say, I need help.

Not just asking for help, but also being willing to receive it when it's being offered, right? Yes. It's very difficult. Yes. Usually it's dismissive kind of a downplay. I got it. I'm fine. How are you?

Like, how can I help you? Deflecting. Yes, very much so. Which that is all I really want to do is better other people. Like, that's when I feel the best is when I'm bettering others, I would say. Which that was a huge thing that was missing in my life, I think, making huge differences for people. Do you think that had you not been diagnosed with the cyst and you would just continue to train and help people in the gym, that

you would have been okay? Or do you think that you were still not really getting at the core issue? Like it would have manifested one way or the other, but the cyst kind of, that situation where you were really compelled, forced to stop and be with yourself and be unable to distract yourself with external things like going to the gym really forced you to confront it in a way that

maybe would have taken a lot longer had that not occurred. I think so. It was a blessing and a curse that happened. Almost like a gift, right? In a lot of ways, yeah. Well, sitting here now and looking back, yeah, it definitely was. I think I was confusing maybe happinesses with distractions. You know, I would go to the gym and forget everything and it was wonderful. And then I wouldn't sleep at night or something like that. So I think this kind of forced me to want to try to live again. Because I did have the cancer scare and all the, it's such a scary word anyway. There wasn't any present, by the way. I forgot to mention. That was a huge relief. Yeah, your surgery went fine. Yes, yes. It was better than the best case scenario. They didn't have to remove anything

but the cyst. So I guess things got kind of bad when I realized that I might not have the option of having kids. I've always been on the fence anyway, but it's nice to have the option. And I don't know, it all just came together and I guess this kind of having the surgery and going through that took me to a bit of a breaking point there because it got kind of dark right up until the surgery. So what was the lowest moment, the darkest day? I think it was probably the day right before I bought my bicycle, right before I bought the bicycle.

And I knew after the surgery I'd the bicycle. And I just, I knew after the surgery, I'd be limited. My neck had gotten bad, my knees. I felt like I'd have to start all over. I had no muscle base anymore for, because that's when I'm not really in pain is when I have the muscle in place. And I guess I just, the photography was great,

but I just didn't think I'd ever achieve that sense of fulfillment again. And now I can't even go to the gym and have that outlet anymore. I just felt like I just didn't even, I'm just not capable of anything anymore. Yeah. Was it depression? Was there suicidal ideation? Was there, you know know what was the mindset

there yes i i definitely was i guess i i can say that i was fantasizing about it and uh that evening was probably the the closest i'd ever come in my head to to an attempt I hadn't attempted suicide prior and uh I just decided that that I can't do that to my I've lucked out with very loving family and um I couldn't do that to my parents so but even in that moment you didn't have friends or family around that had a sense that you were going sideways no no one really knew i was going through any of this until i i made a facebook post about it and just was a little more vocal about some of the stuff i was going through what did you say in that um basically i said a lot of the things that i've said here um i expressed and

explained that since getting out of the military, it feels like I've kind of lived a whole lifetime and there's really nothing left to do. That's kind of where I'd arrived in my mind. I said that I've had these nagging, gnawing thoughts that I'm really only living life to fulfill some sort of obligation to the people that love me and nothing more. And I felt so guilty about saying that because everybody that cares for me is probably like, I thought she has a great time with me. I could have done or said something differently. And usually people end up thinking that after it's too late. That's why I decided

I need to get this post out there. And the reason I waited is because the bike trip was already in motion. I was like, here's what I'm doing about it. Because I didn't want to just come out and say all the negatives. Gotcha. So you went public with it after you were already kind of well into the solution. Yes. I wanted to have a game plan so people knew. I didn't want people to worry. I never want anyone to worry about me. That's the thing. And so, that's why I've kind of mastered this. There's a lot that happens behind a smile, really in anybody, you know, and I've gotten pretty good at it. I make people laugh. Like, that's my thing. I love making sure people are having a good time

and that they're safe around me. But I made that post and then I described the plan for the journey and the support was unbelievable. It wasn't like I expected it would be like private messages, you know, you're in my thoughts and if there's anything I can do, you know, stuff like that. People were like, this this is amazing i'm sharing this and maybe other veterans will kind of decide to do something about it or just try to take back some of that purpose for themselves try to take on a challenge well so when you're in that moment you were in that darkest you know that darkest, what was it that clicked inside of you to do something about it? Take me from that moment to the moment of deciding that you're going to get a bike and ride a bike and how this whole ride came together. Yes, I'd been planning the trip with a friend I met through a mutual friend, a Marine, and we talked about it, but I hadn't purchased my bicycle yet.

And I was still really struggling and on the fence about actually going through with it. And I had an evening where I just tend to stare at the wall sometimes for a while and think about big stuff or just anything, really, and I get kind of lost in some of that. And I think I just convinced myself that I think people would be okay and that basically it goes back to coming home without my friend. I don't know if I deserve to be here. friend. Just, I don't know if I deserve to be here. And I'm not even taking advantage of the life that has been gifted to me because of someone else's sacrifice. And it just really gnaws at me. It still does, but it's better having completed this. But I had kind of a game plan for if I'd gone through with taking my life and everything. And it was a bit elaborate, but it was kind of like the least, one of the, maybe the least shocking kind of ways.

I just didn't want to hurt anyone or scar anybody. Yeah. You know, so that night I was right there, I'll say. I was like right there. And I ended up just falling asleep. And so the next day I was like, that's it. I can't do one more night like that. I'm not going to get i'm not gonna get through it so i literally just woke up and went and purchased my bicycle the next day right to the bike store yes and you had had so the plan was the the plan was already in motion to do a ride prior to that you just hadn't taken any action on it yet right i purchasing the bicycle was like the the decision like that's a decision maker and had you been a cyclist like he had you ridden a bike before no not well not since

ninth grade other than just being a kid no then no grade school was the last time i'd ridden a bicycle so but it comes right back. It really does. I took the bicycle. The adage is true once you learn how to ride a bike. Like riding a bike and everyone would say it and I'd be like, and then I got on it and I'm like, okay, that's why that exists. It really does come right back.

And so I took, I got a Kona Sutra, a steel frame Kona Sutra from a bike shop in Nashville called Halcyon. I went in a few times, didn't take it on a test ride. Honestly, I was nervous, but I didn't want them to know. I was like, no, I don't really have time right now. I was just kind of looking around, and I was like, I'm going to fall. I didn't want to embarrass myself. It's intimidating to go into a bike shop when you don't really know what's going on.

I remember the first time I did that. Yeah, it's weird because you think everyone's an expert and they're going to, like, you know, you're afraid to ask a stupid question or whatever. Very much so. Yeah. I mean, I mess up all the time and make fun of myself all the time. But I don't want to, like, sound stupid. I mean, no one wants to sound stupid.

But was the idea you were going to ride across the United States already so okay so you there was this grand vision yes yep i just needed to get the bike buy that bike yeah so i went in and talked with one of the owners and she's like do you want me to go on a test ride with you and uh because she i think she could tell i was really hesitant about trying it and so we we did we got on the bicycles and started going down the street and it felt unbelievable it was like unbelievable the the wind and the work and all those feelings i was like this is this is great i can do this not only is this fun or whatever, but I can physically, I feel like I can really physically do this. That was a huge fear of mine was, do I start out on this?

And then my physical limitations, I don't want to fail at anything. And I don't want to commit to something. You did boot camp. You could do it. Oh, I know. Except with me with the injuries and the pain and stuff. Yes, yes. Because I've had chronic, like worsening pain over the years.

So it's worsening. I've been to the VA for MRIs and things like that. So they're working with me on trying to help it. But it's been diagnosed as chronic pain that has worsened over the years, unfortunately. So like hiking or really long- hiking everything i just can't yeah or carrying a backpack for a long time prescribed like pain mats for that they offered i uh i made it a point to not do the narcotics but they offer you like oxy um for you i believe it was

oxycodone but i i asked specifically not for a narcotic and they gave me like 200, 300 ibuprofen, 800 milligram ibuprofen, which I just... Yeah, the hardcore ibuprofen. Yes, like the highest one you can get. And I only take it when I absolutely have to, because I like to know what's going on with my body too. So I try not to do really pain meds because I will overdo it. As soon as I don't feel pain, it's going on with my body too. So I try not to do really pain meds because I will overdo it. As soon as I don't feel pain, it's like I feel like Superwoman. Like I just want to bust through every wall I can find.

And were you ever prescribed like SSRIs, like anti-depression medication? Cymbalta. Cymbalta. And I actually didn't start taking it. I left on the bike trip instead. Yeah. And that was a really good choice, I think. Not that there's't start taking it. I left on the bike trip instead. Yeah. And that was a really good choice, I think. Not that there's anything wrong with it.

It is supposed to help with nerve pain and chronic pain too. So it made sense that they prescribed it. Once I was out there, I felt wonderful. Freedom. Yes, yeah. Everything about the journey was incredible. So you go out on this test ride and then you come back and you're like, all right, I'm buying this. Like, how did that work?

That's exactly what happened. We went out, we just did some road cycling, and I got ahead of her real quick because I was starting, honestly, I was starting to tear up. I was so happy that I could do it. Not only just with the balance aspect, but my knees didn't hurt. I mean, it was only a half a mile, but my knees didn't hurt at all. And the way I had a position where the seat was slightly lower, my neck really didn't hurt because I wasn't real hunched like I'm supposed to be, but I had to make some modifications to my bicycle for my neck. And I was just excited. It's like, I really believe i can do this and then i bought that thing i was like this is happening and how long after you bought it

did the ride begin less than a month uh-huh yes i i really only trained for about three weeks right by train i mean like unweighted 10 milemile rides. I was like, yeah, this is cool. I did a 50-miler on, it's called the Natchez Trace Parkway near south of Nashville. But Nashville has the Music City Bikeway. It's like 30 miles long. It goes through a lot of the parks. It's beautiful.

So I went out there, and that's how I trained. I just rode my bike and got used to it. And did you get like the panniers and all that? The idea is you're going to bring all your stuff, right? Right. Yeah. It was a self-supported run. And this is how little experience I had.

I have always and still call them panniers all the time. They're panniers. That's what I said, panniers. I have a hilariously small amount of experience you know which any that's a huge factor is that anyone can do what really what i did honest to god anyone can do what i did especially after coming out of a major surgery having the physical pain no experience whatsoever it's just basically no training no no no training or three weeks beforehand you hadn't ran a bike since you were 10 years old.

Yes. Well, ninth grade. I don't know. Whatever that is. A long time ago. A long time, right. A lifetime ago. Several lifetimes ago.

And did you get like a tent and everything? Like you're just basically camp, you're going to camp along the way. And just, did you plot, like spend a lot of time figuring out the route and where you wanted to go? The route was already preset it's a route by the adventure cycling association it's called the transamerica trail and um it originally goes from yorktown virginia to astoria oregon but in pueblo colorado um it branches off you can take what's called the western express which is is what I did. That takes you to San Francisco. Yes. Yeah. I really wanted to cross the Golden Gate for the finish. I just thought it'd be

really symbolic. I'd never been there, just crossing bridges and new beginnings and that whole mindset. When you embarked upon this, did you have a sense that this was going to be a mission, not just for yourself, but to, you know, connect with veterans along the way and try to be, you know, available and of assistance? Or did that develop over time? Because you kind of had two bites at this apple, right? Yes. Which we'll get into.

Yes. A huge part of it was honoring the friends I lost overseas and definitely post-war healing for me. I needed to do something. It was kind of a bit of a Hail Mary trip. I was kind of at my rock bottom. I believe it was my rock bottom. I think I was starting to feel some of the things that some of my friends had been feeling and I'd lost a couple of friends to suicide also. So, and it was definitely, I wanted to not only help myself, but help others in different ways. I wanted to be a little more vocal about some of the stuff I was dealing with.

And I just, I didn't think there was any way i could be alone in it you know and then just the fact that i'd lost friends to suicide i wanted to talk more about that too because i understood that downward spiral and the darkness and how it just swoops in and sweeps you off your feet yeah well what's interesting about that is that typically people that embark upon these kind of adventures, they're, you know, they had their lowest moment or their darkest moment, and then there's the healing period, and then they become whole. And then they decide, okay, now I'm going to share it, whether that means riding their bike across the country or starting a nonprofit or whatever.

There's kind of a, you know that there's a period of time that elapses in between those two things and for you they're like right on top of each other yeah like so you're very close to that dark moment but you're already like you're not like just in the solution you're already you're already in the advocacy um role as well at the same time. Yes, the darkness and the light kind of, it was going to be one or the other when I bought that bicycle and I chose to do the bicycle thing. And so I posted on Facebook about it, and then I documented it as I went, made it public.

I liked the added pressure of people following, and it fueled me, the support and encouragement and everything. I mean, yeah, some people, sure, there's doubters and stuff, but that's totally fine. That's happened to me my whole life. I encourage it. It's fine. Just sit back, relax, and enjoy.

You're blogging, and you're posting on Facebook, and you're very public about this. So tell me about some of the experiences that you had connecting with veterans along the way. There were many veterans I ran into and it was amazing. And almost none of them were planned. and it was amazing. And almost none of them were planned. So it wasn't like, I'm going to go to this VFW and they know I'm coming and I'm going to talk to them and they're waiting for me. I wanted to go to more VFWs. There weren't a lot on the route. So I was able to go to some and they were awesome. They didn't really know I was coming. I didn't really broadcast it in that way.

I was just, I kind of wanted it to be a little more private, but also let people in on it kind of a thing rather than the big spotlight thing. Because I'm actually really not used to that sort of thing, you know? Because I am a private person. And so, I guess I sought out veterans in the towns I would go through. How did you find them? sought out veterans in the towns I would go through. How did you find them? It just happened. Like literally, I have countless experiences with veterans. I have to write about them all. I included a bunch in my blog, but there's so many more than that. They were, for us being such a small percent of the population, it felt like we were just everywhere. It's almost like they

found me or something. Like I needed to find them and vice versa or something. It just, it really was that random. And which I think made it way more beautiful and special. And having it unplanned, I think, resulted in maybe a deeper connection with it being so spontaneous. And tell me about what transpires when you make that connection. How and why is that healing not just for you, but for the other person? I think once you discover that each other is a veteran, you kind of start in this different place, I think, where you get to skip past a bunch of stuff. And like the small talk thing,

or sometimes it takes people years to get kind of close like that. And you can just almost dive into each other. You don't have to skim the surface. You just dive into the conversation. You could just start making fun of each other. You could pick on, you know each other has the same sense of humor, similar mindsets. I think a lot of us share the same

qualities when we join, like wanting to, the selfless service and all that sort of aspect in there. So you already kind of know who the person is deep down a little bit, and then you can build from there. And the sense of humor really is the best part i mean sitting there for a half hour and joking on each other is therapy like i love that stuff so it wasn't necessarily about making a point of bringing up PTSD as it was just organically connecting with these people. The topic almost always got brought up. And if it didn't, I tried to talk about some of the stuff I was going through and why I

was doing what I was doing. I always made it a point to, because really, more than anything, I was asked, like, what are you doing? Why? And then, of course, and if it didn't, I would go and do it eventually after letting them speak also. And so, what did you say? I mean, what is the response of that? Like, I'm dealing with PTSD, and I was at a very dark moment, and now I'm doing this to try to reclaim my life? Right. That's basically what I would say. I explained that it had kind of come to a head, some of the guilt and depression and some of the things. I needed to do something to kind of prove to myself that I wanted and deserved to be here. still capable of something like this. And it was very important to me to honor the friends I lost by living instead of isolating and not wanting to be here. And then having lost friends to suicide, knowing that there's 22 a day that are doing this and that I was so close myself,

it was kind of like a personal, intimate testimony to that too. Yeah. And a lot of people didn't know that we were losing 22 veterans a day. It's a lot. It's a lot. It's so many. I mean, you fight so hard to get back. And I would describe it as the war inside is just totally different than the ones we were trained to win.

Yeah. is just totally different than the ones we were trained to win. Yeah, very well trained to fight the war without, not so well trained to combat the war within. And the war within doesn't go away until it's confronted, does it? No, and you can beat it to death in your own head. You can fuel it within seconds, over weeks, without knowing. Well, all those skills that you learn in the military work at cross purposes with what's required of you to actually get to the other side, right?

So that has to be confusing. It can be. There's definitely an internal conflict as the light and the darkness and what to say, what not to say, who you want to let in and in what ways. And I don't know. But on the trip, one of the biggest factors for my personal healing was talking to other veterans. And I think that really is one of the biggest things we can do for ourselves

is to seek out other veterans, spend time, whatever that entails. Like I said, you could just make fun of each other and that's therapy sometimes, you know? Yeah. I mean, I'm somebody who's in long, I've been in recovery for a long time and, you know, a core aspect of that is getting together with other, you know, a core aspect of that is getting together with other alcoholics and addicts. And you have that shorthand and there is that community and there's that connectivity and that accountability that helps people not just get sober, but stay sober. And that's the most important community to me and my long-term wellbeing. Without that, I don't know if I would be here. So why would it be any different for what you're going through

and what's required for you to heal and to help others heal? Yes, there's a lot of people bond, I think, through struggle and tragedy more powerfully than anything, I think. And you have a collective experience that a lot of people can't relate to, you know, that only you truly understand. Yeah. And even more so, it does come down to individual veterans too, and their struggles and issues vary person to person, which is why it's hard to person to person, which is why it's hard to decipher a one solution to all this, you know? So, yeah, it all gets thrown under the umbrella of PTSD, but, you know, you could be, you know, somebody who suffered a sexual abuse situation or childhood abuse, or you could have, you know, been on a deployment

where your best friend gets blown up by an, you know, an IED or something like that. Like those all fall under that umbrella, but those are all very different things. They're all traumas, but I would imagine, you know, the specifics are important in terms of how you move forward. And the specifics are important in terms of how you move forward. Right. Yeah, the experiences, they all vary. And it's almost like different wounds, similar scars. And I don't know, when you get around people that you've been through something similar with, so much can go unspoken. Like you don't have to dive into the darkest things to relate.

And especially if you don't focus on comparing, if you focus on relating and listening. What were some of the more profound or impactful encounters that you had with veterans along the way? Like are there a particular one that stands out? Yes, there's several actually. And I would say specifically Vietnam veterans, the insight I gained from them was mind-blowing. They've been dealing with things a lot longer, and they didn't stop fighting when they came home.

Like when they got back, I mean, I can't imagine that. Well, I got a welcome home ceremony. I can't imagine going through something like that and then coming back to that. And they worked so hard to pave the way for my generation of combat veterans. And so basically the consensus is it doesn't get any easier. You just need to figure out ways to deal with it and not tough it out, but just know that it probably or might not get easier and have that in mind and just kind of work with it. Don't stop trying to help yourself.

And they're all close. They're pretty, I think, tight-knit. Or they try to stay in contact. I did meet a few along the way that they don't go to anything militarily. They do stay at home quite a bit. And honestly, from what they told me that does, that is a big problem for them too. I think it's just, it just comes down to seeking out each other, putting the effort into just talking to each other about it.

Did you meet anybody that you were deployed with or anybody that was in to Crete when you were there? On my journey? No, no. Everyone I had to play with was in Ohio. So my route was Virginia, Kentucky, Illinois, Kansas, Colorado, Utah, Nevada, and California. It was so far south. What was the hardest part of the ride? Well, I don't mean to... Every country or every part of the country presented totally different challenges like the Appalachations starting east to west just starting right into the appellations right so you're going into the wind the whole time so you made it hard for yourself from the get-go by deciding to go east to west yes the the headwind was especially in the rocky mountains that the headwind was relentless and then you would um

crest well then the mountains were difficult alone but then you would crest, well, then the mountains were difficult alone, but then you would start to crest and you're like, oh my gosh, it's the summit. And then huge headwind and you almost like go backward. But yeah, the headwinds were a challenge for sure. But honestly, I think the biggest threat along the way, it wasn't people, like everyone thought it would be, it was the heat. I feel like the heat was this little sneaky ninja that in the Ozarks, the humidity was nuts. Humidity, yeah. Just yesterday, I had two women in here who are endurance athletes, and one of whom did RAM, Race Across America, like her and a teammate. They did it, what,

eight days? I think they did, yeah did yeah in eight days they rode across america uh and she was saying that the hardest part was it was the ozarks right the appellations or the ozarks i think i think of the ozarks she was like yeah the rockies were hard but like the ozarks were like super hard i mean they go west to east so they're coming up the other side from where you rode and i'm sure it wasn't the same route, but she was saying, yeah, they were steeper and windy and like brutal. Yeah, they just come out of nowhere. And like I must have been just super geographically challenged. I thought after the Appalachians, it was just going to flatten out for me.

And I was super excited. And that's the Ozarks started. for me and I was super excited and the Ozarks started. So when I hit Kansas, everyone told me, by everyone I mean quite a few people told me that I would hate Kansas. It's boring, you can see as far as you can't. I loved Kansas after the Appalachians and the Ozarks. It was like a dream.

It was amazing. There's 60, 70, 80 mile days. No hills for the next however many days. Yes. And the straight line, it's great. You could just kind of let your mind race instead. Instead of you like going crazy, it's just a steady. Did you listen to music or audio books?

Yes. You did, yeah. I listened to music every day. On the trickier roads, I'd leave like left earbud out so I can hear the cars and everything. But music was huge on this thing. My playlist was super random. But different songs were perfect with different cadences and intensities. And then, of course, just the mood, where my thoughts were at that day, the music, I would just pick to cater to that. I can't listen to music for long periods of time. Like I need something else to focus my brain on. So I would listen to podcasts

or audio books or something like that. Oh, another thing is the sounds of nature were amazing. I mean, if I knew I'd be in a heavily wooded area or something like that, I would just turn it off and just listen. You can just hear your tires on the pavement and then all the sounds around you. It was just wonderful. And how did you deal with food? I mean, were you ever in a situation where the next place to get something to eat was too far away or did you make sure you had enough packed with you all the time? Yes. I always carried three days of food on me. I always carried three days of food on me. And I mainly took oatmeal.

Oatmeal was huge for energy and everything. It's almost like my body knew exactly what to do with it. And I could just go and go and go with oatmeal. So I had like my cook set and my food. Bananas were helpful, but they're heavy. But yeah, I would carry three days of food on me just in case. And did you ever come, when you would come into a city, would you be like, I'm getting a hotel room, I'm going to take a shower? Yes. Yeah.

Yes. I think my favorite part at night was the camping, though. Like, that was my very favorite, was to end the day and to sleep under the stars and listen to everything i just cycled through and the air and everything i don't know i love roughing it so much um that was a a huge plus for the trip for me so you get into colorado and then you have a unfortunate encounter with a truck yes what happened What happened? I was, it was the first day into the Rocky Mountains. So I was coming up on my first incline in the Rockies after going through Kansas and I was on a curve and this big black truck came over. He was just starting to come over

more and more. So I went over, but there really wasn't a shoulder. It was just sand. And so I went- but there really wasn't a shoulder it was just sand and so I went towards you no behind me behind me I watched my rear view like a hawk too so um he just kept veering right veering right so I did too and I went off the road went into the sand and then fell back into the lane and um just missed his train he was pulling a trailer so I just missed his trailer and then landed in the lane there was a car tailgating the truck that didn't see me because they were so close. So I threw my arm up real quick and they swerved around my head basically. It was so loud, the sound of the tire. When I'm at a red light

and someone's goofing off and they peel out, I still like, you know, that sound is so distinct and it was so piercing. And so the night before I ran into, have you heard of Team Rubicon? Yeah. They're much bigger now. They're awesome. A lot of veterans, mostly veterans are in there and they were working on a project locally. There had been some fires and then mudslides and then flooding. So, they were clearing out some of the rivers and creeks and everything. And they were working down the hill that day and they heard the tires squeal. Wow. They're like, we wondered why there wasn't a crash afterward. And I was like, oh, that was me not getting run over. No big deal. But I partially tore my PCL ligament in my

knee. And I stayed in Colorado Springs for like two weeks trying to recover because I didn't want to go. I wanted to continue. So it just wasn't getting better. I waited. I went to the VA a couple times. Of course, they're like, change your socks, take Motrin, drink water. You know, you're cool in like three days.

Super helpful. Three days tops. You'll be back in the game. So, um, I did everything right. I elevated, I said all the, all that stuff. So I got on my bicycle after two weeks, flat ground, no weight, and it swelled right up. And I knew it was, it wasn't good. So I ended up going back to Nashville. I had to let it heal then over the winter. And then I had to wait for winter to end because the Rocky Mountains, I was starting literally back into my first mountain the day I started back.

So the winters last a lot longer at the top of the summits. So I had to wait until, let's see, I started back on June 2nd from Pueblo. So I went back slightly on the route, like a day or two back. And Pueblo was very special to me. They actually had a send-off. They felt bad it happened in their state. And I was like, one bad apple doesn't hurt. Yeah, it was, oh, I just, it was mind-blowing, really.

The whole trip really was. The kindness was nuts. And they had a send-off there, and there's a bike shop there, Great Divide, and they tuned my bike up for free for me and everything. And there was a group of cyclists that rode with me that first day back out. It was really odd. The support was incredible. It really fueled me to, it's like, I'm definitely finishing this. That first day back, there was an incline,

and I knew that that would kind of set the tone. And I busted up that thing. I couldn't, oh yeah, I got up that. It was so liberating to come off. There's nothing worse than being athletic or in the middle of something like that and having an injury and going through that recovery that's what kind of brought things to a head to begin with i was like cool another vicious cycle i made it halfway just over halfway and but i'm like no no not not this time i'm like you have to finish what you start when you had to go back home and nurse that injury how did you prevent yourself from succumbing to another vicious cycle and falling into a depression and emotional eating? And how did you put the brakes on basically falling prey to what had handicapped you previously?

I think the difference this time was that I let people in and I had this support system in place. And there were all these people that were encouraging me that I was making a difference for them also, that I was inspiring them and answering their messages. I would message with probably a dozen, maybe two dozen vets a day. Like, hey, this is inspiring me to be more active, or I'm going to start this thing, I'm going to hike this and do that. And I read's cool. And like, I read your story and like, you're amazing. I'm like, no, I'm just, you can do it. Trust me, you can do it. Uh-huh.

And so, I was having all these conversations and interactions with other veterans through my Facebook message or Facebook page. And all these, I couldn't possibly consider not continuing this time. And so I actually had an Army buddy of mine come down for a couple weeks and help me train and get kind of back on after it had been, after I nursed it for a while. He helped me get back on track, and that was super helpful. I just made sure I did everything right. I documented my recovery and everything. I think that pressure really, really helps me. I like to

kind of be under pressure. Yeah. The pressure and being a member of a community that was quickly growing and of which you were basically the hub with all these spokes going out everywhere. That made me feel awesome. I mean, I love knowing I'm making some kind of difference. So finishing what I started was a no-brainer to me. I was going to do whatever it took to do it. I was like, I'm going to have to, I mean, it would take me probably losing a leg to not, even then, even then, I mean, whatever it took, I couldn't let these people down or myself.

I was like, no, I'm regaining this lust for life. You know, I can feel it happening. I can feel the healing happening. And so that was really my, that was the difference this time really is that I let people in and then it became this totally different cycle. It was beautiful.

It was awesome. And the idea was, I wanna connect with America, this country that basically I went overseas to serve. I want to get to know the people that live here. What else did you learn about our country? You know, you're connecting with all these veterans, but what did you not expect to discover? Or what surprised you? to discover or what surprised you?

The kindness and warmth surprised me in that another thing that was kind of bumming me out quite a lot actually is just how divided everything feels anymore. No one's looking for reasons to like each other. And it just feels like everyone just kind of hated each other. And especially over the last couple of with the media social media stuff like that is all this negativity all the time and you already kind of feel alienated enough um and then to kind of come back to a society where no one's really getting along you know it is a bummer and that definitely contributed to you know me wanting to reconnect with the country and experience people again. Surprise was that the warmth was overwhelming from east to west. Yeah, I feel like we are very divided right now.

And we're sitting here the day after midterm elections. If you're on Twitter or Facebook or on social media in general, if you're watching the news, it can be depressing and dire to come into the sense of just how differently so many people see the world and how we're unable to have healthy communication about these things. But when I go out into communities, it doesn't reflect what you're seeing on Twitter. You know what I mean? Like when you're with people in person one-on-one, then I realize maybe we're not really as divided as it appears or that picture that's being painted perhaps isn't as accurate as reality. Yeah, when you're sitting in front of the person,

there's almost like a little more respect is required. And I think people tend to maybe share other people's words and thoughts on social media. They're not having to formulate their own and really think through why they're heated or emotionally charged about things. They're like, yeah, that sort of lines up. I'm going to post this. And then they lose friends or people get offended. And it is a problem. Reconnecting with people in person is completely

different when you're sitting there with someone. You want to give them their chance to talk and vice versa. It's just a lot harder to be rude and dismissive in person too. I mean, I think people want to get, deep down, they want to get along and be happy with themselves and ever, I would think. So it just felt, like I said, very divided and negative. So I wanted to get away from that too. So I didn't really spend hardly any time on social media. I would do a blog post maybe once every three weeks or something. I could have done way more. I would get messages like, are you alive? Can you say something? I want to know how this went. I'm like, I'm sorry. It takes me a while to get my stuff together. Plus, I tried not to be on

there too much, but still enough where people know what I'm doing and things. But it was a really nice experience detaching from all of that. And I miss it. I do kind of miss just kind of being out there. I mean, I miss it very much. And I was going to tell you, well, we hadn't talked about the remainder of the trip yet, but coming home is is a lot like coming back from a deployment too yeah i was curious about that because now you've

done another huge adventure right and you have a re-acclimation period different from returning from deployment but also the prospect of having some kind of big letdown and becoming depressed would be, if not expected, normal, right? So I imagine there was some fear, like, am I going to have that experience again? That's exactly what happened. Well, people asked me what I was most afraid of about it, and it was finishing. My honest answer was always finishing. Then what? Square one, just another vicious cycle. That was my biggest fear. And so I decided during my recovery, I really put together an idea for a veteran program and nonprofit that I'm starting in Nashville,

taking veterans out in nature, detaching together. Waypoint Vets, right? Yes. Yeah. Yes. So you could return with this mission of basically paying forward the experience that you had. That's exactly what I want and need to do is i would always ask people on the trip what can i what can i ever do to thank you or pay you and uh i said just pay you know continue it the kindness that's exactly what i'm going to do that's exactly what i've been missing there was uh that new york times article that shared your story and the story of a number of other veterans who have had similar experiences to your own and they mentioned this organization called warrior expeditions.org right so some guy who like basically had the same epiphany that you had and it's like look we need to get these guys

home and get them out of nature and their stories about veterans coming home and walking the Appalachian Trail or just really having that quietude, that silence, that ability to phase themselves back into a sense of normalcy slowly and over time that I think we lack. And as I recall, there was a story in there about how that used to be, like I can't remember where it was, maybe you remember, that used to be like i can't remember where it was maybe you remember that used to be something that was kind of structured like when i when i like the these soldiers would literally walk from wherever their battlefield was back to wherever they lived and it could be take weeks or something like that in that space allowed them to decompress sufficiently to ward off some of these you know

ptsd symptoms but when you just get on a plane you know one day you're in to crete and the next day you're in ohio you know that's got to be super weird it's like what just happened yeah it's so quick so yeah taking the time and consciously tackling some of the things, getting away from the stimuli daily, all these little daily decisions and these little mundane things we worry about every day, just eliminating those from the equation. You can really do not only soul searching, but you can kind of hash through a lot, like what do I really need to be thinking about all the time? Because it simplifies your life. And so you can also tackle big things to simplify your thought processes, your daily thought processes. Like on the road, it was so simple. You know what you have to do.

You have to cycle this day and then you plan where you end. And then you have a plan for food and water and you have everything you need on your bike and you don't need anything from anybody. So you get to enjoy the experience of the day and the experience of meeting the people. And then you're happy. And yet we create these lives that are so complicated. We create all these complications because we delude ourselves into thinking that's what's going to make us happy but it's actually only when we strip away all of that and get back to kind of the bare necessities yeah i got home

and i didn't even yeah i still don't know what exactly how to dress myself yet i'm still wearing like the same four things um even today you're wearing your cycling kit right now. Yes. Yes. Well, it's been a while. Honor the fall and all of that. I had to. I had to. But yes, I have worn this otherwise. So it's just, yeah, you just kind of, you don't want to add all that back. If anything, you want to go back out there to where it's normal.

And another reason this was so helpful is that it justified that hypervigilance, having to watch everything. And it's so quick paced and any any little thing like a chipmunk could end you out there on a decline it's it's funny but also it's true like a pine cone literally you could lose control and you know coming down a mountain um a gust of wind things like that like you have to constantly be on point you know watching everything you have to be in the military yes yeah it was really nice to conjure all that back up and those skill sets just knowing that they were still in place and that it was an environment where i could use them and not feel weird or silly well i think in the wake of this adventure you know on this issue of you know how are you

gonna you know this fear of completing it and is this gonna set in motion another you know vicious cycle that you're gonna have to overcome you know the the post you know elation experience of coming down back to earth and reintegrating yourself back into your life, the distinguishing thing, the difference is that this was part of a healing process, right? Like you're healing as you go by connecting with these veterans, by connecting with your body, by connecting with nature. So when you think back on this bike ride, is it the adventure aspect of it? Is it the challenge aspect of doing something that was very difficult and maybe you thought you couldn't do? Was it the connecting with the veterans and just Americans in general?

What aspect of that do you think has been the most impactful on your healing process? Or is it just all of those things together? Well, the easy answer would be all of it. And the truest answer would be all of it. But I really feel that I wasn't okay. And I'm really no good to anyone unless I'm good to go. And this, the reconnecting, like you said,

with your body, with nature and with people, I think it just really takes all three of those things. That's why I want to do this next step. And I felt like my life was changed forever in a really good way from east to west. I like to relive some of the days randomly throughout my day. And I want to facilitate smaller versions of what I experienced firsthand, this healing. I want to help other veterans get a sense of that or at least introduce them to it. of what I experienced firsthand, this healing.

I want to help other veterans get a sense of that or at least introduce them to it. I think that's a worthy venture. We like to say we support the troops. Thank you for your service. But we don't do very much in terms of supporting those troops once they come home. And part of that is the government's responsibility. And part of that is our responsibility as a community of civilians and how we interact with veterans and how we support them and making sure that these services are readily available to the veterans in need

and that an environment is created in which they feel comfortable availing themselves of that, right? Because the statistics are shocking. Twenty-two a day take their life. How many are thinking about it? How many have failed suicide attempts? How many are depressed? How many are over-medicated? I mean, the numbers have to be astonishing, right? problems. And we as a culture need to do a better job of raising awareness about what's going on and finding solutions, supportive solutions to addressing and solving this very big issue. Yeah. I think I've said in my blog, I feel like we have a responsibility to ourselves and each other and our fallen you know to help each other pick each other up and fight through this war inside that we're all facing just maybe lighter or darker in different different times for the individual

but it really I think comes down to us helping each other. I think the people best equipped to help us are us. And I think people want to help but don't really know how. And a lot of times we don't know what to tell them. We don't know. Yeah, it's awkward. As somebody who's a civilian and you encounter a veteran, you don't really know what to say.

You know that you don't really understand their situation. You want to say the right thing and you don't know what that is. So you say, thank you for your service. And then there's like, okay, are we done? What do I say now? Right? Yes. Yeah. It's awkward. It's weird. Right. I'm sure you have this all the time. Yes. I always say thank you for your support, too. I mean, without that support and encouragement and that back and forth, it never gets old, you know, to hear a thank you, even though we don't feel we're deserving of the thanks a lot of the times, or we kind of shy away from the compliments or the word hero or anything like that. You know, humility is, you know, we think about the people we lost

when we hear that stuff. And sometimes it's just better to say thank you and thank you for your support. Because like I said, we had a welcome home when we got back. If that wasn't in place, who knows how myself or my friends or any of my generation would. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. how myself or my friends or right or any of my generation would yeah yeah yeah do you think that the movies get it right like whether it's hurt locker or did you see thank you for your service

did you see that movie i haven't seen that one yet yeah um i'm just curious as to whether you think that that hollywood accurately reflects that experience or whether it's a you know a glossed over version or if there is a show or a movie that that got it right what that would be i thought hurt locker was very well done i really did and i think that um i think they definitely try to be as accurate as they can they have to i think glam it up for the audience but um for me the the parts that get me in the movies is the the coming back and that did you see coming home that's a classic john voight coming home from vietnam you should see that movie okay i will i will because but i. But I interrupted you, sorry. No, no, no, no.

I'm making a mental note because I should see a movie about a Vietnam veteran coming home. I've spoken with so many Vietnam veterans. They'll probably give me some insight. It's the least I could do after all they've given me. Yeah, speaking of which. Coming home is the hardest, I think. For me, it was the weirdest part. You'll never be the same again.

The child is lost or that innocent. I don't know. There's so much that could be attributed to it. But you know you'll probably never be the same again or maybe relate a lot less with a lot fewer people, things like that. It was cool in researching your story and looking on your Facebook page and your blog and seeing a couple videos. My favorite is the, I assume they're Vietnam veterans,

the vets who were on motorcycles who escorted you down to the Golden Gate Bridge. Yes. That was super cool. That day was amazing. They were the Legion riders, the American Legion riders. And it was very last minute short notice and they came out there i went to the world the war memorial museum uh downtown san francisco and

and met a guy who's the chair there and then he and a commander from one of the american legion posts there um made a couple calls and said hey hey, we got this combat veteran. She's cycling across America. She's finishing. You guys want to come out and be there? And they did. They totally showed up. It was mind-blowing, the last-minute support like that.

Just people hearing about it and being like, we're there. We're just there. And I try to tell as many veterans as possible that we do have a family out there that's bigger than any one of us can ever imagine. I never imagined that I would have that outpouring of support like that. And after moving states and losing touch with people, not seeking out veteran organizations and not talking to other veterans for a while, I totally forgot about that. And I just remember we all met at the north end of the bridge and crossed into San Francisco. So I was in the bike lane on the Golden Gate and then they were in the regular lanes because I couldn't be there and they couldn't be here. And they were just cranking their, oh, it's just sounded thunder. It was like this

thunderous, wonderful thing. And so we crossed the bridge and while I was on there, I was just thinking to myself, like, this is it, you know, this is the finish line. And I just started thinking about all the support I'd gotten. And it really took me over. I mean, I was halfway down the bridge where the arches or the cables kind of were at their lowest and I caught a glimpse of the Pacific and it was overwhelming. And so, afterward, we went through a part of San Francisco, which is very hilly city. I didn't, oh, I was very fatigued. I was like, I can't mess this up the last day. That's ridiculous, Sarah, to get it together.

But- And you made a promise that you were never going to walk your bike, right? Yes. Yeah. I never once walked my bike on the trip. That is something I just did for me. It wasn't to prove anything to anyone but myself. That's something I really wanted to do, and I stuck to it. And actually, I did walk across the sand of the

Pacific, but you have to. Yeah, which beach were you at? The Presidio, or were you at Ocean Beach? It was Ocean Beach. Ocean Beach, right. Yeah, yeah. Which is a really long, well, it's a long beach, but it's also a very wide beach. And so I got to the stairs and they were all in the sand. I went down the stairs with my bike. I had all my stuff on there. It was heavy, you know, and the bike was just sinking. And I was pushing my bicycle through the sand. And it was very difficult.

Honestly, it was very difficult. And I was kind of coming up on some muscle fear. You were like 100 yards from the beach and you're like, I'm not going to make it. Yeah. It was like an 800 foot walk in my defense. But my legs were, I mean, they were hitting muscle fear after the inclines and everything. And I just, I looked down at my feet and I equated kind of my shoes in the sand and my boots in the sand overseas. And I remember that's when I felt like the most capable.

That's when I felt the most alive. And something just kind of happened. I kind of got this second wind, a second wind that could sink ships, I said in my thing. And everyone was just yelling, you got this, you know? And I heard all those voices and I just, it all came together in my head. And honestly, I was that close to muscle failure, like no one knows but me until now. But it took that and something just, and I just hauled, I mean, I don't know if I can swear, but. You can swear.

I hauled ass down. That's very mild too, but I just pushed and I got to the shore, and when I walked in the water and I felt the waves rush around my ankles, it was like I felt everything. I felt everyone. Everyone we'd lost, everyone that supported me, everyone that was there and couldn't be there. I just felt them all i just really felt deep down in my soul that i made them proud that that i it was a mission accomplished and yeah and a mission accomplished for yourself but more importantly uh a mission that represented um healing for other people as well yes yeah yeah i mean you can take back control of your life and your happiness. I mean, we have to.

We have to take control. If you're not going to do it, no one's going to do it. No, no one can. People want to do it for you, but they don't know how. You're the only one that knows exactly how to do it. One of the things I like that you said was that in the military you're you're you're trained to um believe that the m16 becomes an extension of your arm right and that the bike then became yes the the extension of your arm for you. Like you'd swapped one for the other,

but it has that equal importance to you. Yes. The day I purchased it, I got a little choked. I've been talking a lot about crying, but I'm not a big crier. I want to go on the record to say, but I did get a little choked up when I bought that bike secretly. I put my hand on the saddle and I was thinking about that connection with my M16. And it's like that I relied on that. It relied on me. You keep it clean, it keeps you alive. And now I have my bicycle, and it's going to get me from one side of the country to the other.

And who knows what's going to happen in between? And it's just me and my bike. And it was really a special connection. And it was really a special connection. I don't know. I knew we'd go through so much together already. Like I was already thinking way ahead to all the possibilities and the elements and all that stuff. And then at the end there, having it with me that whole time, having been through everything,

we'd been through all the inclines in the tornado in kansas and um oh yeah you just glossed over that oh sorry through a tornado um there was a tornado warning that it hit very close i hid in a storm well i hid in a storm drain for part of it and then ended up in an element and a well not an abandoned an unused elementary school uh-huh i ran into this lady who had a key and i'm like do you know where i should probably go for this tornado warning because i was just going to sleep under that awning at the city park and she's like i happen to have a key to this elementary school and she let me in there and i hid under the foundation oh my god i found an old piano there was no tornado after all no it touched down nearby wow yes oh yeah it was coming unfortunately was there a moment where

during the ride when you realize like oh this is working like was there a tipping point where you're like oh this is healing like this is gonna be profound for me. Or was it just in the completion of it? No, it was throughout. It was totally throughout. Well, gosh, the town that we started out in was Yorktown. There was this restaurant, the Beachcomber Restaurant, and we just randomly met. We just walked in and randomly met these people.

And all the staff and the guests in there, they all came out and took a picture with me. And just from day one, it was like that. People wanted to know and get on board and everything. The healing, there were, I mean, there were several things that happened throughout that made a big difference. There were a couple instances where I was genuinely worried that I was going to make it. The Ozarks, I had a very scary day where I was running low on water and I'd rationed it, but it was so hot. I mean, it was 108, but the feels like was in the one teens that day. I took a screenshot on my phone, like this isn't real life. I was screaming at gnats, like I thought I was losing my mind. I

definitely had heat exhaustion for sure. And I poured what was left of my water over my head and smacked myself in the face a few times, literally. I was just yelling at myself as I got to this next town. I made it to the next town. Honestly, I really was worried about making it that day. And when I got there, I can't wipe the smile off my face even now, just knowing I'd been through that and made it through and that I made it to that town. It was the most exhilarating rush ever. And then I got sad thinking, is it really going to take this for me to feel that, you know, like, can I just feel that after like a really good photography shoot or something? Like you got to turn it up to to 11 like i didn't burn my toast today that's awesome yeah it's like is it really gonna take this but um

that really was a that was very exhilarating um that i could still the the climbs the climbs up the mountains um there was one called that came out of hatersater's Gap, it's called, and appropriately named. And it was 3.8 miles, but only 3.8 miles long. It was a 1,500-foot climb. So it was, well, not straight up. I don't want to exaggerate. But, I mean, it was a really intense climb. And it was the first big climb like that. And I did not stop or walk once.

And I think that's when I first realized physically, like I can make my mind control my body again instead of the other way around. You know, I was getting so down about my physical limitations. Yeah. And the daily pain. And it's like, my God, I just destroyed myself. And I feel great. And I don't hurt.

Like it was a cycling is beautiful like that. I mean, even if you have these ailments or limitations or whatever, it's no impact and it's lighter on you. Even when you're doing stuff like that, I mean, you can work through that sort of pain where it doesn't become overwhelming and you fail. And so much of the climbs were mental. So I had to dig into the mental. And with me, sometimes if it gets extremely difficult, I'll just start cracking up, just because of how preposterous, how ludicrous the situation is, and I'm doing it, and it just cracks me up. And that gives me my own second wind in a way. And so these things would happen on these inclines.

I described them as like a death and rebirth. You kind of kill yourself going up and then you, it's like a reincarnation on the way down or something. I said the inclines are littered with discarded demons and then the declines are tears of liberation. Like that's exactly how it felt. I was like, I'm just going to use my demons And then the declines, tears of liberation, that's exactly how it felt. I was like, I'm just going to use my demons to earn my wings here.

How is your pain now? Now that I'm not cycling every day, it's creeping in. So cycling keeps it at bay. It does. You build a muscle base. You don't have to use heavy weights. If someone's struggling with a lot of chronic pain and joint issues or muscle issues, cycling really is a great way to stay active and everything without overexerting or further injuring yourself and building that muscle base slowly. What is your relationship with cycling going to look like now? What is your relationship with cycling going to look like now? Oh, well, I miss it.

I love it. I don't want to go so far as to say I get it because I have only been doing it for so long. I don't want to, like people have been doing this their whole lives. And I say they get it. You know, there's a reason. I'm starting to fully understand the therapy. It's very therapeutic. fully understand the therapy it's very therapeutic i'm really starting to appreciate and comprehend the healing and the push that comes with it and that you get that solitude while being active so it's like the healthiest way to really kind of take some time for yourself and and take in nature

and you know you should should like think about starting like a century ride for veterans or, you know, trying to introduce cycling to veterans. I mean, I presume you've already thought about these things with the venture that you're launching, but. For one of the activities, cycling would be, I love the idea of a century ride, because that, I mean, I did one century ride on my trip

and I just felt like Wonder Woman or something. I was just seeing those triple digits. There are some places around Nashville I could do that, or really anywhere. I'm looking into doing some outings all over the country. I know there's one in particular, this one pass I went over in Colorado called Monarch Pass. It was the highest point on the route, and that was a doozy. And that view at the top was just breathtaking. What was left of your breath? The air's a little thin up there, but it just sucks the rest out of you.

It's literally breathtaking, this view. And there's a gondola that takes you to the very tip of it. I would love to take a group of veterans up and over that thing that that would be wonderful for them and for me too yeah but um i was well as far as the healing i would say the the handful of days where i didn't know if i was gonna make it and then the people. It was the people. And not just veterans, just everybody. It was everybody. I don't think I really had a negative encounter with someone I met while on the journey that I can think of.

And no moment where you thought you were unsafe? There was one moment. unsafe or there might there was one moment um i was going to arrive at what i thought was a campground and it ended up really just being a trailhead uh with a picnic table and i was like okay i guess i'll find a little patch of flat land and it was a very remote side road like no one should be back there like a meth lab back there or something no well this suv like super sketchy suv went by and um it was pretty beat up and everything. And I got a bad feeling about it. So they started to circle around to a main road to come back around.

And I took off on my bike through the woods to this other road and cut through to this other road and continued on my route. So I like totally lost them. But they were definitely coming back, probably to see if I was the only one there, which I was. And having traveled a lot or part of it alone, everyone was asking, you know, do you carry a handgun or a gun? I didn't. I didn't actually carry one. I had pepper spray and two knives. And so the pepper spray would slow them down.

And then if I absolutely have to use my knife, I totally know how, you know. But I didn't even come close. You can avoid a lot of situations, honestly, with forethought, really. And especially, probably from, I definitely have the military to thank for thinking like that. And I love that it came in handy. Because I did avoid a lot of things too, just by cutting conversations short or not going in somewhere or getting out of somewhere. That hypervigilance comes into play. I read body language, facial expressions, inflection, voices, all that comes into play. So it really did come in handy, and I love that I had to use it.

It's cool that the ride ended up getting a bunch of attention too. Because when I first heard about it, I thought, oh, well, this must have been something you planned for a long time. And there was a whole bunch of energy about what you were going to do before you started. But it's like, no, you just bought a bike and basically started but it's like no you just bought a bike basically started riding it and and uh you know you've generated all this interest out of what you've done um bicycling uh magazine wrote a great article there was the new york times thing and you know a bunch of stuff out there if you just poke around the internet and those cool videos from the news the news crews that were there

when you finished in San Francisco. Yes. Yes. So it must be wild for you because you were kind of just doing this for your own personal healing, right? It was definitely wild for me. I wasn't doing it for any kind of spotlight, really. I actually didn't even know really how to go about making it like that. I called it a made a, I called it a vicious cycle. I made a logo. I wanted people to know what I was doing. I made paracord bracelets to fund the journey initially. So by wanting them to know what I was doing,

I basically made a post on Facebook. I'm selling, hand-making and selling these paracord bracelets. If you know anyone that would like to buy one, that would be awesome. I don't want free money, you know. I sold them for like 20 bucks each and made 300 something of them. And so I think through my Facebook pages, how like the New York Times contacted me and I asked them how they heard about it. And they just replied with the Facebook page. I still don't

know exactly. And so some of the news, it's just kind of been a whirlwind in a way. I mean, the message is important, and I've decided early on to welcome anything like that. Because this journey did help me. And I know that talking about the issues along the way and and publicly you know to the news and everything is making a difference i mean if if this has inspired even one other veteran to to go out and do something like this rather than take their own life like that's enough for me yeah i'm so sick of us dying honestly so and i didn't want to add to it so i started this on that note i want to um wind this down with like typically in your experience like what are we

not getting what do we misunderstand about the veteran experience i think part of it honestly i think maybe would be um sometimes putting us on a pedestal or something or kind of viewing us as different when really we just want to, we don't want the attention necessarily. We just want to be making a ones that shouldn't probably be asked just casually. Like, did you see any body parts or did you kill anyone? Stuff like that. Just in casual conversation. Not a good idea to ask those questions.

A lot of veterans are kind of avoiding that, but like the plague, you know, and now I know as far as there's a lot of resources and more and more coming into play. That's why part of my thing is contributing to the solution here. And there's a lot of new organizations and programs that are available now that. Where can people go to learn about that? Like, what are some of those? There's a, actually, there's a really good resource that I know of, connectingvets.org. They post a lot of different options, places to go. And it's not just call the suicide hotline, you know, they call it the hotline, like it's 900 or something. But they always are, they seem like they're really up to date on a lot of different options for veterans.

So that's one I know of for sure. And the VFW and American Legion are already in place. And when I went around to them, before I started back out, I visited as many VFWs as I could because at that point I was like, I want to get my message out there. Tell them what I'm doing. And I was completely welcomed in right away. And it wasn't just about joining or let's talk about war stuff.

I mean, it was just casual fun, like lots of swearing and having a lot of laughter and just us being kind of how we were when we were in and things. So those are very helpful, I believe. Do you think not enough veterans take advantage of those opportunities? Yeah, definitely not, especially veterans my age. I think they have this perceived notion that it's all grumpy. That's like a Vietnam veteran type thing or all these super old guys are going to be... Yeah. And there is some of that, I mean, quite a bit of that because of this. So, yeah, getting,

I think, the younger veterans into the VFW and American Legions and AMVETS, or if you have a motorcycle, there's the Combat Veterans Motorcycle Association. There's tons of motorcycle clubs, super patriotic, a lot of veteran-run ones. So I think it just takes some putting yourself out there. I think that's the key for veterans, is to put themselves out there.

And for civilians, just maybe, I guess, just kind of being casual and treating them kind of like they're like you or something like that. Right. And for those civilians who happen to have veterans in their lives, whether family members or friends, what are some of the warning signs that that veteran perhaps is suffering and what is the best way to approach that with a veteran?

I think some of the warning signs would be the isolation or maybe actually quite a bit of happiness out of nowhere for a while, something like that. Making it a point to spend important time with as many people as possible on a whim could maybe be a sign that something's coming up that's not too good. Like they don't want to be alone, like almost in a manic way?

Oh, no, that possibly they're trying to make these quick memories and best and great times with people because they're planning maybe on doing something themselves. Like signs like that. Yeah, I wouldn't have thought that. That's interesting. Cause that was kind of part of my thought process. It was visit as much family and friends as possible,

send photos of me with them so that they have them, get all these things in place, things like that so it would be the least hurtful to them, that sort of mindset. And I've had, there's been veterans that have done that sort of behavior and then followed through too. Making kind of big financial decisions or really that that sort of thing big purchases even maybe um trying desperately to have that excitement or fulfillment or something and then it's it probably won't work you know buying yeah a crazy amount of stuff for for helping it's a lot to ask but like just don't give up on the person. It's so much easier to say than do, I know. But even if they're not showing much or don't seem as appreciative

or thankful, a lot of times you're making the difference. I'm not encouraging an unhealthy or dangerous relationship to continue if it shouldn't. But if they know that having you as that constant or knowing that constant's there could be the one thing that's keeping them from ending it or doing something wild, dangerous to themselves or someone else. Having a constant of some sort. And if you're that constant for a veteran, just, oh, I hate to say hang in there, but a lot of times, yeah, if possible, or try to approach it in that way where it's like, I'm here for you. And knowing someone's there is important. But I know not a lot gets accomplished just by saying that I'm here for you and knowing someone's there is important. But I know not a lot gets accomplished just by saying that I'm there for you, but just by actually physically being present and consistently showing

that they can come to you when they're ready or confide in you. And the less pressure, the better. You're available. Right. Yeah. That's really helpful. I think that's all like super important information. And we got to wrap this up.

But I just wanted to end it with saying that there are a lot of people out there who are suffering. A lot of them are suffering in silence. people out there who are suffering. A lot of them are suffering in silence. So if you are listening to this and you are one of those people, or there is somebody in your life that you know is suffering, that there is help available, please reach out for help. Don't try to solve this problem on your own. Raise your hand. Make your voice heard. Seek out the resources in your community and the people that you trust, confide in them, tell them what's going on, be honest, find those resources that Sarah mentioned. I'm sure if you Google this stuff, there's going to be plenty of things available at your fingertips. And to not do it alone, right?

The fact that 22 veterans take their lives every day is devastating. And for all of those people out there that are listening that suffer from PTSD who are not veterans, I'm speaking about you as well. And thank you for sharing your story here today. It's super inspirational. Amazing that you were able to climb out of that and now be of service to other people. I feel like you should organize a bike ride that rides up to the US Capitol and that a group of you can

have your voices be heard in Washington, D.C., so that at least at the highest level from the top down, we're addressing and redressing this problem. Yeah, no, thank you so much for saying that and having me. And I think once people are allowing that support to come in, it's going to be overwhelming what's in place already in your life that you might have become blind to having fallen into a rut or a dark place. When you're at the bottom, it's hard to see what's really going on. So that's really important because you may have convinced yourself

that everyone will be okay, but they won't. They never will be the same. And sometimes it is those tiny gestures that can make a huge difference. Right? Cool. What's next for you? I am going to continue to focus on building my nonprofit, WaypointVets.org. And I'm going to be applying for my 501.

And that's the first big step right aside from that um that's like a whole thing getting that yes yeah yeah and i want to do it right the first time you know i i need to build an inventory gear camping fishing hiking canoeing kayaking cycling um caving i'm excited caving Caving? Yes, like in caves, not like when you cave. No, I know what you're saying. Yeah, that's cool. Like all different kinds of cool adventures. Yes.

Yep. Just adventure, preferably overnight adventures where you bond over a camp at the end of the day. After an emotionally and physically taxing day, nothing beats just kicking back and being among like-minded i mean other veterans so much healing happens from detaching in nature with other vets just i've you know realized it firsthand so that's definitely what i want and need to do it's going to keep me here for sure cool that's awesome well thank you for sharing your story uh people are listening to this uh and they want to they're falling in love with you and they want to connect with you how do they is there where should they go to your facebook page where's the best place yes that um i would

say go ahead and go to a vicious cycle.org or waypointvets.org. I have an email and I have a Facebook page for both also. Facebook.com slash A Vicious Cycle and slash Waypoint Vets. And I check my messages all the time. I message with veterans

all the time. And it's actually, it's very comfortable too. We just send back and forth whenever. And you can say or not say whatever. It's nice.

It works. It works. It's helped me. It's nice. It works. It works. It's helped me. It's helped others. So message anytime. I will answer. Awesome. Thank you.

Thank you for your service then. My pleasure. And thank you for your service now. It was an honor. Cool. How do you feel? You feel okay? Yeah.

You good? Yes. All right, cool. Awesome. Well, come back and talk to me again sometime. If you'll have me i would be honored thanks sarah thank you so much peace intense right i mean for real but thank you for taking that walk with me i really hope that you enjoyed it i enjoyed her i think sarah is doing

some amazing work for our veterans and uh and that's inspiring And I feel very strongly about leveraging this platform to have real conversations about mental health, which I'm becoming increasingly convinced is one of, if not the most important, the most misunderstood, poorly diagnosed, and critical predictors and factors when it comes to human suffering and human well-being. when it comes to human suffering and human well-being. In any event, you can support Sarah's mission by visiting waypointvets.org as well as her personal site, aviciouscycle.org. There are also Facebook pages for both. And of course, I'll put all her links up in the show notes,

which are copious and comprehensive and which you should always check out on the episode page on my website, richroll.com. You can let Sarah know what you thought about today's conversation by hitting her up on Instagram at aviciouscycle and on Twitter at avc Sarah, Sarah with an H. If you would like to support our work here on the podcast there are a couple ways to do just that tell your friends

about the show or about your favorite episode take a screen grab share it on social media subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts on Spotify on YouTube

on Google Podcasts leave a review on Apple Podcasts and you can support us on Patreon at richroll.com forward slash donate i want to thank everybody who helped put on the show today jason cameolo behind the scenes production

audio engineering show notes interstitial music he helps me write these scripts all different kinds of stuff blake curtis and margo lubin for video and editing the podcast which you can watch on youtube jessica Jessica Miranda for graphics, DK for advertiser relationships, and theme music, as always, by Annalema. Thank you for the love, you guys, and the support. I will see you back here in a couple days with another great episode. Next up, we have Quest Nutrition co-founder

and host of Impact Theory, Tom Bilyeu. I did Tom's show a while back i had a great time i'm super impressed with him as a person and what he has done with his platform and i'm excited to flip the script and share his story with you guys in a couple days it's a good one until then much love to all of you please if there's someone that you know out there who is suffering from depression or PTSD, extend a hand, offer some help, some comfort. Life is short, man, and we need all the help that we can get.

Until then, peace, plants, namaste. Thank you.