The Rich Roll Podcast - Tim Van Orden Runs Beyond The Kale — Why Personal Growth Begins With Self-Acceptance

Episode Date: October 6, 2014

If you are a consistent listener to this show, then you know very well that my goal is to elucidate the experience, insights and knowledge of my guests as a tool to aid you on your progress towards greater self-actualization. Food is a super important aspect of this process. I believe it’s the best place to begin the process of transforming your life. But it’s also easy to get overly caught up in the dogmatic aspects of diet and nutrition. Unnecessarily boxed in by labels. Overly focused on details and minutiae. This presents a treacherous social, political and internal minefield that can result in truncating long-term growth potential. Because when we obsess on our plate at the exclusion of objectively redressing the many other very important areas of our lives that warrant focus and attention, our overall development towards full actualization is arrested. I didn't clean up my diet so I could get stuck pontificating on the various types of dark leafy greens until all my friends fled for the hills. I cleaned up my diet so I could raise my energy levels, shift my consciousness and direct my newfound lease on life towards continual growth and expansion. A search for greater meaning, purpose and answers that will hopefully occupy me for the remainder of my days here on Earth. Optimal nutrition based on plant-based foods is a great step in the direction of optimal wellness.. But that is all that it is — a step. Hardly the be-all-end-all. Because wellness encompasses so much more than food. Far from the end of inquiry, think of quality nutrition more as a right of initiation that will repair your physical body, raise your vibration, elevate your consciousness and take you on a wild and unexpected journey towards healing, a sense of purpose, greater authenticity and actualization that will be unpredictable and challenging but ultimately astounding. This is a process Julie and I call going beyond the kale. And it's the primary theme of this week's offering. Enter Tim Van Orden. If you have been with me on this podcast journey since it's inception, then you will recall my conversation with Tim back in the early days – RRP Episode 15 to be exact. Over the course of that conversation we delved into Tim's personal story, particularly his trajectory from relatively aimless and unhealthy junk food vegetarian to the raw food fueled running champion he is today. An exploration of food, athleticism, consciousness and holistic minimalism that transformed this non-athlete into a 10-time US Masters Trail Running National Champion. You may also recall the horrible Skype audio. At that time I was still trying to find my voice and had yet to master the technology (I still haven't, which is one of many reasons why I resist interviewing guests by Skype). Moreover, I had yet to actually meet Tim in person. Fast forward 92 episodes and now we’re friends — conversing in person and picking up where Episode 15 left off. This week it's less about diet and more about the bigger picture. Specifically, this conversation focuses on the psychology and emotional landscape that informs and drives self-perception, habits (both healthy and unhealthy) and decision making. This is a very frank, honest, open and soul bearing exchange about ego, vulnerability, authenticity, and attachment. It's about self-image as a predictor of mood, action and outcome. It's about the stories we tell ourselves about ourselves that inform how we see ourselves in the world. It's about the self-acceptance required to confront and ultimately overcome the dreaded and unhealthy aspects of ourselves we keep hidden that handicap growth. Enjoy! Rich

Welcome to the Rich Roll Podcast, episode 107 with Tim Van Orden. The Rich Roll Podcast. All right, you guys, let's do this thing. My name is Rich Roll. Welcome to my podcast, the RRP, the Rich Roll Podcast. All right, you guys, let's do this thing. My name is Rich Roll. Welcome to my podcast, the RRP, the Rich Roll Podcast. Thank you for listening. Thank you for sharing the show with a friend. And thank you for supporting the show by clicking through the Amazon banner ad at richroll.com for all your Amazon purchases.

This really helps us out a lot. It really keeps the wind blowing in our sails. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you to everybody who's been supporting us this way. It doesn't cost you a thing, but Amazon kicks off some loose commission change and you guys have been amazing in supporting us in that way. So please keep doing it. And I appreciate it. If you're new to the show, what do we do here? Well, briefly, each week, I sit down with the best, the brightest, the most paradigm busting minds in health, wellness, diet, nutrition, fitness, and creativity and conscious capitalism. People like world-class athletes, doctors, nutritionists, entrepreneurs, artists, all here to share their experience, to share their insights, to share their knowledge, to help you discover, uncover,

unlock, and unleash your best, most authentic self. Food, that's what we're going to talk about right now for a minute. Food is a super important aspect of this process of transformation. And I personally and truly believe that it's the best place to begin the process of changing your life. But it's also very easy to get overly caught up in food, to get stuck, to get dogmatic, to get hung up on labels and ultimately fall prey to a disposition that, I don't know, truncates your ultimate growth potential by arresting your development, because you become overly focused at the exclusion of other areas of your life with what's on your plate. For me, I cleaned up my diet so I could raise my energy levels,

so I could shift my consciousness and then direct that newfound bounty and search for greater purpose and meaning and new directions in my life. It's what we call going beyond the kale. So don't get me wrong. Food is a great step. It's an important step.

It's a crucial step, but it is not the end of the inquiry. The journey, the quest goes on. Food is a first and important step, but it's hardly the be all end all. And that's really the primary theme of today's show. Van Orden. If you're a longtime listener to the show, then you may recall my conversation with Tim back in the early days, episode 15. We talked about Tim's trajectory from relatively aimless and unhealthy junk food vegetarian into a raw food beast, a journey in food and athleticism that transformed Tim, who is then a non-athlete, into a 10-time US Masters trail running national champion. That's right. And we talked about his holistic approach to life and how he makes it all work on a 100% raw plant-based diet. It's an amazing conversation. So you might want to go back and dial that up before listening to this or after you listen today, go back and listen to that one.

But if you do, you will also notice the horrible Skype audio. This is one of the reasons why I really refrain from using Skype for my interviews. There's just something about doing it in person. But at that time, I was really still trying to find my voice as a podcaster. And also I had very much yet to master the technology involved. And actually, I'd never met Tim in person at that time. But fast forward to now, we're friends. And I'm super pumped to sit down with him in person 92 episodes later and pick up our

conversation where it left off last time. So this time, we're going to kind of dispense with the personal backstory, because we did that before, and we're gonna delve into the bigger picture. We're gonna explore the emotional landscape and the psychology behind habits, both healthy and unhealthy.

We're gonna talk about what drives decision-making. And ultimately, we have this incredibly frank, honest, open, and vulnerable soul bearing conversation about ego, about attachment, about goals and why they are important, or if they're important, what's truly important in life and the actions required to overcome unhealthy practices in a long-term sustainable way and reframe the personal stories we tell ourselves about ourselves that are not serving us. Self-acceptance. Acceptance as the starting point to rebuild a new, more healthy, more fulfilling, and ultimately happier experience in this short time we share here on planet Earth. I dig Tim.

I dig his vibe. I dig his authenticity, his honesty, and his willingness to be raw, to pardon the pun. He is truly a unique guy, a very, very special guy, and I'm proud to call him my friend. So let's step into it and see what we can dig up. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care, especially because unfortunately, not all treatment resources

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I empathize with you. I really do. And they have treatment options for you. Life in recovery is wonderful, and recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. Yeah, so that's kale, coconut, flaxseed, moringa, and strawberry. I wondered what that flavor was. I hadn't had it before. Moringa.

Tell me about moringa. Yeah, superfood. It's the superfood that covers all your bases. Of course, now I'm on the spot. I'm supposed to pontificate on the benefits of moringa. Draw a blank, but I'll put it up in the show notes. But essentially, it's a really powerful I'll put it up in the show notes. But essentially, it's a really powerful superfood, anti-inflammatory, antioxidant, boosts your immune system, all sorts of things. It's kind of like the guy who can play every position in baseball, you know, kind of hits on all levels. So I like to make that a staple. Anti-bad stuff. Pro-good stuff.

Yeah, it's pro-good. That's where it's at. So we're in the garage. You can hear the wind blowing. We had to roll up the garage door. There's a nice breeze. It seems like every time I record a podcast in the garage, it's a windy day. So you're going to hear a little bit of that and probably some motorcycles.

But nothing could be worse than the audio from our previous session, podcast episode 15, which we did by Skype before we had ever met in person. And I don't know if you remember, but we went back and forth because I think I wanted you to record it also. Because I was having problems that day and I went and listened to a little bit of it earlier today and I was like, oh, that's horrible audio. I went and listened to a little bit of it earlier today, and I was like, oh, that's horrible audio. And that's one of the reasons why, one of many reasons, I really avoid trying to do Skype for interviews. There's just something about being in person. So it's good to have you here, man. Hey, it's great to be here, Rich.

It's a real honor. Good, man. I'm glad. We have so many things to talk about. You know, we don't need to get into your whole story because we did that before. And people that are listening, just go back and listen to episode 15 if you want to hear kind of more about Tim's background. But I want to jump in and talk about where things are now. You know, one of the things that's kind of going on with me currently is this idea of what's next and, you know, where am I

taking this advocacy? Where am I taking this mission? And I think it would be, I talked about that. I had Brendan Brazier on the podcast recently, and we talked about this as well. It was really interesting conversation. Uh, you know, it'd be very easy to just stay in this world where, you know, it's all about like, what's your smoothie recipe or, you know, what kind of kale should I buy and, and just stick with the food, you know, it's a sweet spot. Everybody's interested in that and you can build your whole life around that. But, you know, I've been doing that for a while and, and now it's really, I'm interested in what's next, you know, what is the evolution, you know, beyond the plate?

And Julie likes to call it beyond the kale. Like, let's get beyond the kale. Like, why did we clean up our diet? What are we doing with all this energy that we have? And I know that that's something that you share. And I've watched your evolution even over the last, even year. And, you know, I tune into your videos and I watch what you're talking about. And it's very much not about the food,

it's about emotions and it's about psychology. And I like how you lead every video with, change your diet, change your life, change the planet. And it's like, that encapsulates the evolution, I think, that a lot of people experience when they embark on this lifestyle, because it does affect your consciousness. And it leads you on this journey that hopefully, if you continue to be committed to evolving, will eventually take you beyond the kale. Yep. And it's not to change your diet.

Like, you know, when I came up with that tagline many years ago, I realized even then, even though I wasn't talking about it yet, I realized then that this is just the first step. And I made a video recently where I talked about the gas that we put in our cars. You know, we gas up the car. Yeah. I had to fill up the tank to come out here to see you. And I didn't think about the gas. As soon as I swiped the credit card, that was it. My conversation about gas ended and I got in the car and I drove. But with food, for some reason, we keep thinking about the gas. We keep talking about the gas and people get stuck there. You know, they change their diet and then they're stuck and they haven't moved to the next step, which has changed your life now. What's important to you? What matters?

Okay, you filled up the tank, great. It's high quality gas, but what are you going to do with it? What kind of life do you want? Do you want a life where you just talk about food? Is that what's important to you? Or do you just want to use that fuel to do things in a way that you haven't been able to before because now you're more properly nourished,

you're not numbed out by the food, you've gotten rid of many degenerative diseases caused by malnutrition, in a sense, eating a standard American diet, and now you're operating at a higher level. What are you going to do with that? Right. Let's just talk about kale forever. Yeah, right? You know, one of the things I always say is that with every thought that pops into your head, every word that comes out of your mouth, every action you take, every decision you make, every single one of those micro events in your life are moving you either towards greater growth or regression.

Yeah. Right. And growth is a process that will continue throughout your entire life or regression. Right. This is not a there's no destination here. This is something you can do for the remainder of your life and still only scratch the surface of it. So where are you heading?

Where are you taking all of this? And so that brings up the obvious question, Tim, where are you taking it? What are you doing? The million dollar question or the billion dollar question. Now a million is not worth enough anymore. The million dollar question or the billion dollar question. A million is not worth enough anymore.

You know, I often have to define my occupation when I cross a border somewhere, especially into Canada. I'm driving from Vermont or from Seattle and I'm crossing the border and they ask me, you know, what do you do? And for a while I didn't know what to say. I tried. I'm an athlete because for a long time, that's what I was. For seven years, I was an athlete. That's all I did. And they looked at me and like, well, what kind of athlete? And I said, well, I'm a runner. And then one guy even said, that's not an athlete. He laughed at me. He's like, runners aren't athletes. So like, what do you mean? So they would often say, well, how are you affording to make this trip? If you're just

an athlete, like, do you make money as an athlete? And I said, no, how are you affording to make this trip if you're just an athlete? Like, do you make money as an athlete? And I said, no, not really. I'm kind of an advocate, and I just want to get out there and promote a plant-based diet and do things athletically that demonstrate the power of the diet. But no, I really don't make any money doing that, and they would always give me a really hard time. So what are you really doing here? So what am I really, yeah, what are you really doing here?

You know, how are you affording to stay in Canada? So I had to think about, first of all, what am I going to say to them when I cross the border? But number two, what am I really? And you brought up the word in the beginning of the, excuse me, in the podcast, which was advocate. And now that's what I call myself. I'm a health advocate. And that's kind of a nebulous term. We kind of understand what it is, but on the ground, what does it look like? What are the daily practices of a health advocate? And for me, it's simply about distilling the sea of contradictory information out there, contradictory information out there, distilling it down to a digestible snippets that you can,

you know, present to people so that they can make more informed, better informed decisions about their life, not just their diet, but also about the actions that they're taking, the goals that they're moving towards. So for me, I do more study in psychology now than I do in biochemistry or physiology. You know, I studied a to study in psychology now than I do in biochemistry or physiology. You know, I studied a great deal of that. I don't know everything about those topics, but I studied enough to understand how the diet works. And now it's about, you know, how does the mind work? How do we actually change our lives? Okay. We can change the diet, but then the next step is change your life and that's psychology. So for me now, as a health advocate, what I'm doing is presenting challenge on my YouTube videos, like, okay, here's the challenge. This is what I'm struggling with today. You know, this, I woke up

and this obstacle slammed me right in the face. What am I going to do? Here are the steps. First of all, here was my, this was my reaction. I broke down. I got anxious. I got hot flashes, sweaty, whatever. And then I did this and I did this and I did this. And this is the outcome. The outcome is I'm now running 20 miles in the snow in the mountains. And I feel great. And the obstacle just doesn't even really bother me anymore. How did I get there?

Here's the process. So what that looks like for me as an occupation now is traveling around the country, giving talks. I've been working on a book for eight years. Come on, Tim. I know, right? That's what Brendan Brazier said. He's like, Tim, just finish it already. I assume it's called Running Raw.

You know, it was going to be called Running Raw, but I think I've changed. Yeah, that's going to be part of it. I think there's going to be two books now. One is my story, because I think there's a lot of important lessons that I've learned that could be of value to people. But the book that I'm really working on is, it's kind of a user's manual to the mind and body in a way that I haven't seen presented before. You know, it's not an intellectual play thing, which I think most self-help books are. It's like, these are great ideas, these are great, they sound good on paper,

but when somebody is really, really struggling, do they work? So, you know, I put myself through the test in Vermont. I really, really intentionally challenged myself, financially, socially, physically, um, and discovered or created tools that helped me deal with those situations so that I know they work in really challenging times. That's great. I mean, I think that, uh, the, the real meat of all of this is the gap between information and inspiration and action or change or transformation. Because, you know, we know how to eat, right? We know we need to eat lots of fruits and vegetables, irrespective of whatever your dietary proclivity is. That's not news to anybody,

right? Our grandmother told us that. But so many people, most people struggle with that very concept. You know, how do you implement this concept into action to change your life? And I myself have been doing a lot of study on that. Like, what is it that holds people back? What is the difference between, you know, a guy who can lose 200 pounds and run his first marathon uh versus somebody else who tries it for a week and abandons it like what are the what can you uh discern or you know sort of divine from studying these people their psychology their emotional well-being their you know spiritual health all of these things to be able to extract principles that are applicable and not just sort of platitudes.

You know, because I think a lot of self-help books are their platitudes, you know, and just do it. Right. There's a there's a writer named James Altucher. I've had him on the podcast. He's a phenomenal blogger. Guy churns out books like crazy. But I've been meaning to read this article. I haven't read it yet. But the title really captured me and I I've been meaning to read this article. I haven't read it yet. But the title really captured me and I bookmarked it to read later. But basically he's saying that most self-help books are just placebos.

And the placebo effect is powerful. Like a placebo works. I think that's a misnomer to even call it a placebo. But what's the difference between the placebo effect and true, you know, catalyzed change? Well, I think the difference is suffering. A placebo gets you so far. Maybe it advances you 20%. But I think if you're only moving 20%, I'm making these numbers up.

It's just, you know, playing with thoughts here. If you're only moving 20%, it's going to feel good for a little bit, but then you're going to slowly ratchet back down to 18%, 15%, 9%. And before you know it, you're right back to zero again, which is zero, the baseline of where you were. And what we see in psychology, you hear a lot of talk about post-traumatic stress disorder, But there's also a phenomenon called post-traumatic growth. And a certain percentage of the population gets PTSD after trauma. And another percentage, a smaller percentage, gets post-traumatic growth. Where something really bad happens and it forces the person to change.

And it's not that 20% placebo, Okay, I'm feeling a little bit better. Oh, good. I've got a little bit of relief here. It's like, wham, your life is now radically different. Like, for instance, my tooth we're going to talk about later. But I just lost a front tooth. How scary is that? I'm walking around L.A. with no front tooth.

Yeah, you're in the wrong town for that, buddy. And I'm still smiling at women in Whole Foods and whatever. And it's like, okay, I'm learning how to be okay with that. You're the crazy old guy that lives down by the river. Exactly. Yeah. Excuse me. I like that idea of post traumatic growth. I think another thing that, that comes into play is this idea of short-term goals and short-term gains. Like if you're, you're trying to lose weight, you get to that place and then you breathe easy and then you lapse back into your old habits because you think you've accomplished something as opposed to sustainable lifestyle transformation.

Yeah. And you know, for me, the tactic that I've taken, it started out as a mistake, or at least that's the way I looked at it. In fact, many great inventions start out as mistakes, accidents. They're trying to do one thing. This guy was trying to make an adhesive. The adhesive failed because it was too weak, and then he realized that he could make a Post-it note, and that's how the Post-it note was invented. It was a failed adhesive. It wasn't strong enough.

And for me, as I started the Running Raw project, the one thing I kept bumping into as my training needed to advance and then advance and then advance was that I couldn't do it. I couldn't do the training. And it wasn't physical. The diet really changed me physically. So I was able to do the training, you know, in that regard. But mentally, I couldn't get myself to train. And I've dealt with depression almost my entire adult life.

It's, you know know one of my best friends and I've also dealt with extreme shyness and social anxiety and many other cocktails of emotional challenge all come together as me as a human being and I tried to hide that for a while when I started this project you know I really I kept that buried because I just wanted people to see the results of the diet. I didn't want them to know about my personal challenges because that's going to take away from the diet. Oh, eating that diet makes you depressed or eating that diet makes you, you know, emotionally weak or whatever people are going to say. So I hit it. But then after really struggling to keep the training up and failing and trying to do it again,

After really struggling to keep the training up and failing and trying to do it again, I really had to start investigating psychology just so that I wouldn't look bad as an athlete because I really wanted to represent the diet. So that's where my journey into psychology and neuroscience began, was to try to get myself, who I consider one of the most emotionally challenged people I've ever met, of the most emotionally challenged people I've ever met. How do I get myself to consistently train in an inhospitable environment, Vermont, long winters, running in the snow in the mountains, just about as challenging as terrain gets. In fact, I was inspired by Rocky four, seeing Sylvester Stallone running in the snow and carrying logs. That's essentially what I do. alone running in the snow and carrying logs.

That's essentially what I do. And I thought, if I can get myself to consistently train, there's something there, there's value there. If it can work for me. So instead of looking at the seven habits of highly effective people or what wealthy people, what their behavioral characteristics are, what are the characteristics of people that are really struggling i know because i'm one of them so i really started to investigate challenge

like not investigating people that are doing it right but let's investigate people that can't do it at all and really understand intimately what their challenges are what they're saying to themselves where they fall down so i just became really open and honest with myself and with my public as I started talking about depression, talking about emotional challenge and really getting in there and being transparent about it. And man, has it changed my life. Yeah. I mean, authenticity, honesty, integrity, transparency. This is what people are gravitating towards now. This is where you can find these just beautiful expressions through new media, you know, and that's what I tried to do in my book. That's what I try to do in the podcast. And it's interesting

what you say, because as somebody who's considered a thought leader in this movement, everyone's looking to you, Tim guide me, you know, you're, you're, you're the one who's out, you know, nine time us, you know, us masters trail champion. Like this guy knows something I don't, and he's going to teach me and you're up here and they're down there. And it takes a lot of courage to say, you know what, I'm a human being and I'm struggling. And these are the things that I'm struggling with, uh, and allow yourself to be vulnerable in that regard. Uh, it's not an easy thing to do, but when you have the willingness to do that, that's when you can truly not only connect with people because they see the humanity, they know that you're not bullshitting them, you're telling them the truth. And that's when you can step into a place of really being able to not only help yourself, but help other people because you develop a level of

trust that is, you know, beyond what people are used to when, you know, they watch something on television or they read the newspaper or, you know, watch the plastic faces on the local news at night. Yeah. And, you know, also when I started to embrace my challenge and investigate it, that's when I started getting good as an athlete. When I stopped fighting it, when I stopped resisting it, when I stopped hiding it and really embraced it, like, okay, I'd wake up and say, all right, I don't want to get out of bed. I really have no interest in living today, but I know that I've got to run 20 miles and it's below zero outside and we've got a foot of snow on the ground and the trails that I run on are going to be covered

and I don't want to get out of bed. So what is the process? So it was about really getting in there and looking at these tiny micro steps. And that's what I really advocate now. Not looking at the big picture of your life. That's important when you're feeling good, when you're in a good state, when you're not really struggling, great, you know, get up above the scene and take a look and say, Oh, okay. I'm flying over Calabasas right now, or I'm flying over Ventura or Los Angeles. But those are, those are concepts. You know, what does Calabasas look like? I don't know right now, but I know what your table looks like and I know what the microphone looks like.

That's reality. I can actually do something with these physical things that I'm looking at right here, but I don't know what Calabasas looks like here. So when you're really, really struggling, you've got to get present to the tools that are at hand. Really come into the moment and say, okay, I don't feel well, I don't want to get out of bed, so what can I do? Well, I'm in bed and the covers are on me, so I'm going to pull back the covers.

That's it. That's it. That's the one thing I'm going to focus on right now. I don't have a lot of energy, but I probably have enough energy for that, so let's do that. And I do. Okay, what's next? All right, let's slide our legs over the side of the bed, put them on the floor, sit up. Okay, how you doing? Well, I died. I really don't feel great. I still, I'm not

excited, but all right. Okay, let's get up, find a pair of shorts. All right, put a pair of shorts on, find a shirt. All right, let's start walking towards the kitchen, and I don't have a goal yet. I'm simply now out of bed with some clothes on. The next right action. The next right action. You're not looking any further than what is the next action. No, because that's scary. Because a depressed person or somebody that's really challenged, if they start thinking into the future, they start comparing themselves and how they feel to that future and the gap is too wide. Okay, if I have to be a raw foodist or if I have to be a vegan and that's this identity that I have to,

you know, strictly hold on to, that's too much, way too much pressure. But if I can just walk towards the kitchen, all right, well, there's no identity there. There's no real pressure there. Yeah, even though I'm depressed, I can walk towards the kitchen. I get there, all right, grab a banana,

peel it, that's it. That's all you're doing, you're peeling a banana. All right, put it in the blender. Okay. Peel another one. Get some frozen blueberries. Put them in the blender. Open the fridge, get some kale, put it in the blender. And I just focus on the steps. I'm not telling myself anything. I don't have, okay, I've got to do a 30 day juice challenge or smoothie challenge, or I've got to lose 50 pounds. Whatever people tell themselves, they set these big goals. Again, they're flying above the city looking down, but they're not on the ground.

So I just put myself through the steps until there I am drinking a green smoothie, but I never told myself I had to because a green smoothie is a concept. It's holding the banana in your hand and peeling it. That's the reality. And then when I'm done, I walk into my room, put whatever clothes on I need one step at a time. I walk out the door. I start my watch.

I pick up my foot. I take a single running step. And then off I go. I don't tell myself how far I have to go. I don't tell myself how hard I have to go. I don't tell myself how hard I have to go. I simply focus on the tiniest of steps. And not only does it get me in action regardless of how the day started and my days often start pretty rough, but I always get into action with that method. And it's got me really present, which has changed who I am as a person. It's really caused me to just be present to my surroundings.

So when I am running or when I'm doing anything now, I'm really present to it. And I'm not thinking about these fantasies and these goals. I'm here. And it's changed everything. I love that. I mean, I think that I distill that concept down to one phrase, which is mood follows action. Mood follows action. Mood follows action. I mean, you cannot think your way out of that situation when you wake up and you're like, there's no way I'm going running. It's freezing out, blah, blah, blah. You run this

mental loop and you're, you're done before you've even done anything. Right. And for me, it's about really embracing this idea that emotions are things that you don't really have to engage. Like they're happening. They're not going to kill you. You're feeling a certain way. So reserve your judgment to the extent that you're capable of doing that. Reserve your judgment about that feeling that you're having, that emotion that you're having. Understand that emotions are fluid. They're always changing. But if you just sit there, you're likely to wallow in it as opposed to the way out, which is to take a simple action, one action at a time, followed by another one. And then before you know it, you're out running

and you did your 20 mile run. And I would say that there's nary a day where you get back from that run and say, I wish I didn't do that. I wish I laid in bed. I feel incredible. In fact, 20 minutes into that run, I'm on top of the world and I don't want to stop. I don't want to stop. Right. And if you can't take an action, the action's too big. Make it smaller and keep making it smaller until you can take it. So, you know, get dressed for running. Well, there's a lot of steps in get dressed for running. So just pick one of them. Put your socks on. Okay. That's, that's just one step. If you can't take it, it's too big. Keep making it smaller until you can do this very smallest step. But also, you know, with emotion, it's about people identify with their emotions. Rather than having emotions, they identify with them.

Right, it becomes who you are as opposed to just something that you're feeling that is distinct from your higher consciousness. And, you know, it's funny because the most popular smartphone is the iPhone. And they do a lowercase I, but really it should be an uppercase I because what happens is emotions are simply signals coming in from the environment. Okay. Something is coming in, which triggers a physical emotional response in me. It's like an email buzzing in. So I've got my iPhone and if somebody texts me, it's got one sound. If somebody emails me, it's got another sound. If somebody emails me, it's got another sound.

If somebody calls me, it's another sound or ringtone. Depending on who's calling me, it's going to be different ringtones. So that's essentially what emotions are. There are signals coming in and if I like somebody, okay, well, that's a good ringtone emotionally. If I don't like somebody, that's a negative ringtone emotionally. But I am not my iPhone. Right, like who are you? If you put it on airplane mode, then do you disappear?

Yeah, exactly. You do not exist anymore? A lot of people do. You see them freaking out. They're like, I'm not connected right now. Uh-huh, interesting. This distinction between, and this is something I talk about a lot, between the thinking mind or the emotional body and who you are, like your true identity outside of these externalities.

And the awareness of both. That's another part, being aware of the thinking mind, being aware of the emotional mind or body. And the only way to do that is to stop and focus on the present. Get present. Step back. Just watch. Say, ooh, I'm okay. There's a ringtone coming in. All right. Let's take a look at it. Okay. That's my mom. All right. How do I feel? Okay. I feel this reaction in my body. Just notice it. You know, you're a surfer, right? I wouldn't go that far. Okay. Well, you've been in my body. Just notice it. You know, you're a surfer, right? I wouldn't go that far. Okay. Well, you've been in the water. Emotions are simply waves rising. And if you go out to

the beach in Malibu and you watch the surfers, 90% of the time, they're not surfing. They're just sitting on their boards, letting the waves lift them up and then drop them. And that's really an analogy for how to deal with your emotions. You don't have to surf every wave. You don't have to answer every phone call that comes in and you don't have to respond to every emotion that comes in. You get to pick. If it's a positive emotion that's going to take you to a great place, surf it, paddle for that wave, ride it into shore. But if you know that it's going to lead to a negative outcome, just let it lift you up, breathe in, and then breathe out. And it goes away just like the wave, the wave crashes on shore. You don't crash with it. I would say

that that applies as well to the chatter of the mind distinct from emotions. And again, this is something I've talked about before on the podcast, but we all have stories. we tell ourselves about who we are. And usually what we do is we search back into our memory banks and we extract out, you know, four or five or 10 or 12 significant events in our life. And we string those together like beads on a, you know, on a necklace or something like that. And these events then comprise, you know, 70, 80% of who we think that we are. And somebody who is pessimistic or negatively inclined, we'll think back on traumatic events or times when things didn't go so well and, and create an entire identity around that. Yeah. You know, conversely, somebody who's optimistic will think about all the good things that have happened and walk around feeling grateful and blessed. Uh, but in both

cases, they're illusions because true identity is fluid and so much more than that. And like you have a choice about which emotions to engage in, like the surfer who's sitting, you know, letting the waves roll underneath him or her. Uh, we have a choice about which stories we want to tell ourselves about who we are, which events we want to focus on. And again, getting to the present allows you to extract yourself, exempt yourself out of that story, I suppose. Yeah. And it's, we either live in the past or we live in a future informed by the past. And both are problematic. So what happens is you grow up, kids, somebody picked on you, you were never a good athlete,

but you always wanted to show them, which for me was part of my motivation. Yeah, that's a big part of your story. Yeah, you know, I wanted to show people, like, I can do this. You know, I'm not a loser or whatever I was calling myself at the time. And so I'm taking those wounds of the past, throwing them up into the future and saying, okay, if I make an Olympic team, then that's going to fix everything. Then I will show them. Then they're going to see.

Then they're going to like me. Then they're going to respect me. And I think this motivates a lot of people. They're trying to show somebody, their dad, their mom, their ex-boyfriend, their third grade teacher, a math teacher in high school, I'll show them. And we're really just trying to heal those wounds of the past. So the real problem is that we set these goals and the goals really have nothing to do with us at all. You know, I want to lose weight or I want to win this race. Like I was talking to someone yesterday, uh, who

is going to run a marathon next week, but they're only running 30 miles a week and they're really struggling with their long run, you know, which is they're doing a 20 mile run and then 10 miles for the rest of the week spread out. And it's like, why are you running a marathon? You're not, you're not ready to run a marathon. You know what, what, and she's like, I have to, I have to prove to myself that I can do this. And, you know, and there's so many people out there getting into athletics, marathons, these Spartan races and whatever else, because they really feel like they need to beat themselves into submission somehow because they, they don't like themselves. And they think if they accomplish this grand goal, it's going to fix everything. So what, in a sense, they're doing is shaming who they currently are.

That's interesting. Yeah. People are living in shame and they think the only way they're going to get over the shame, the only way they're going to really accept or feel good about themselves is if they lose the 50 pounds, if they complete the marathon, if they get the job, the house, the car, the music contract, whatever. And what I've learned is that none of those things work. None of those things work, first of all, because I tell you, Rich, when I'm coming to the finish line to win my first U.S. Masters title, man, I was elated. I was crying. I had goosebumps. I turned around.

The guy wasn't going to catch me, and I'm going to be a national champion. And it was amazing. And five minutes later, who cares? I'm back in my rental car. That hole is still there. Why is that hole in my gut still there? Yeah, and actually now I've won 10. And I've been U.S. Masters runner of the year four times, which is huge. And guess what? Didn't

change a thing. You're still Tim. I'm still Tim. You still wake up in the middle of the winter and not wanting to run. Exactly. I still have the same challenges socially, emotionally, and otherwise. So that was a huge lesson for me. And I'm glad I went through that because it's really informed me now because my new path, okay, where's Tim going next? It's all about self-compassion and accepting who you are and what you're feeling and even what you're saying to yourself. So I've created this voice in my head because we can control the voices in our head to some degree. When that little boy starts talking to me and telling me that I'm a loser and I'm pathetic and I might as well just stay in bed and nobody's going to love me and whatever he likes to

say, I have a loving parent voice that actually I verbally communicate to myself. I talk to myself out loud. Yeah, I am crazy. So you do, it's like the Stuart Smalley technique. Well, but it's not an affirmation so much. It's, I simply say it's okay. It's okay. I know you're scared. It's okay. I know you think you're not going to be able to do this and that's okay. I get it. I feel it. I know you don't want to get out of bed right now. I understand. It's okay. I'm going to carry you. And as a result of doing that for how long now? I've been doing that for a couple of years now that I've been practicing that. What is the result? The result is that no matter what shows up, I can handle it. I can transform it within 10 to 15 minutes.

I don't care how bad the situation is. Like when my tooth came out the other day, I had like 10 minutes of absolute freak out. And then I'm like, okay, all right, let's just get present. And I started talking to myself and I said, Tim, it's okay. It's okay. You're going to be fine. So let's talk about the tooth. All right, let's talk. Yeah. So I noticed when I ran into you at that panel the other day, I was like, there's something going on with his teeth. But, you know, I didn't, I didn't feel comfortable saying anything. I, you know, I hadn't seen you in a while or whatever. And I'm like, yeah,

feel comfortable saying anything you know i hadn't seen you in a while or whatever and i'm like yeah he's got a tooth issue uh and of course even though i've been plant-based for eight years i immediately go towards i wonder if that's related to eating raw foods is it from eating too much fruit because there i know there's a lot of you know sort of uh chatter out there about eating an 80 10 10 diet and negative impacts on dental hygiene, etc. So I immediately thought of that. And then I went and watched your videos and heard you explain, you know, your sort of history with dental hygiene. So let's just, why don't you just lay it out? Yeah, basically, I have a genetic disposition to weak teeth. When I was, I don't know, six, seven years old, I probably already had half the teeth in my mouth drilled and filled.

As soon as I got adult teeth, they were all drilled and filled. And I don't remember if that was because of dental hygiene or simply genetics, but I knew a lot of kids that were eating crap and not taking care of their teeth that didn't have that problem. I know people that have never had a cavity in their entire life. And now I'm really, really good with dental hygiene. I'm really diligent several times a day while I floss and brush. And yet I still get cavities.

And so part of it is a genetic component. The other part is the reason I'm missing the tooth. I was doing a lot of fresh squeezed orange juice about a year ago, a lot of it, too much. And four fillings in my front teeth popped out. So basically the citric acid in the orange juice, which is known to damage tooth enamel, there's a lot of data on this now,

especially with sports drinks. It's not just orange juice or lemon juice. Sports drinks are loaded with citric acid so and energy drinks as well do the gels have that those i don't know if gels do but most of the sports drinks on the market and in all of the energy drinks on the market have citric acid in them and people are basically bathing their teeth in citric acid all day long i know people that pound sports drinks and energy drinks all day they're bathing their teeth in citric acid all day long. I know people that pound sports drinks and energy drinks all day. They're bathing their teeth in citric acid. And the effect of that on me with the orange juice was that four of my fillings basically like came out, my teeth started eroding.

The fillings popped out leaving, you know, some holes in my front teeth. And then the teeth just got unstable around those holes because, you know, they had drilled quite a ways into the tooth. Right. If you have a hole, then whatever you're eating is getting in there and eating it away there's no there's no enamel to yeah structural instability so it was just a matter of time before my tooth broke but the damage was done 25 years ago long before i was a vegan i mean i was drinking a gallon of milk a day and eating more burgers than you can possibly imagine so it wasn't you, lacking animal protein or calcium because I was getting plenty of it

and my teeth were falling apart then. Right, right. And so, you know, a lot of people would say, oh my goodness, you know, I'm a YouTuber and now I've got this dental issue, you know, maybe I should stop making videos. Like, how can I be on camera with this problem? And you made a different decision, which goes back to the issue we were talking

about earlier about transparency and vulnerability, uh, to address it directly. Talk about it. You even pull your tooth out in one video, which is challenging to watch, but incredibly courageous. And what I see when I see that is somebody who's really developed an interesting relationship with their ego, because the ego would not want you to make that choice. Right. And you're saying, I'm going to do this anyway, because maybe somebody else out there is dealing with this. And I feel the need to be transparent. And you're letting the world, you know, levy their judgments, whatever, however those may fall. And that's a bold act. Well, it's not about me.

And that's the thing. You watch a lot of YouTube channels. I mean, we live in the me generation now. Everybody's doing selfies all the time. People are updating their Facebook posts every five minutes. They're tweeting every five minutes. And it's like, me, me, me, look at me, please look at me. Why are you not noticing? But look at me in my best light. You know, look at me when I'm like, get that perfect selfie. And you know, I post on Instagram and I always try to post some epic running picture. I'm guilty of it as much as anyone else. I do it as well.

And now there's these studies saying people get depressed when they look on Facebook and it looks like everybody's having this amazing life. And see, that's the comparison again. Like you can compare yourself to your goals or you can compare yourself to other people and what they're doing. And you're the person sitting in your room not doing anything. And wow, look at what Rich is doing and look how fit he is. I will never be like that. He's older than me and I'm doing nothing. And it's a recipe for people feeling bad about themselves. And again, this goes back to shame. So we're all trying to impress each other, but none of us are really living the life that we're presenting on Facebook or Twitter or Instagram.

Of course not. It's just a tiny slice of our best light, as you said. So I made the choice with my teeth because my channel is not about me. My channel is not about growing subscribers. It's not about making money because I don't. It's simply about helping people that are really... Finish your book, Tim.

We got to make some money for you. All right. All right. We get your tea straight now too. Yeah, that does have to happen because it does affect my credibility. But while they're broken, I'm going to use it as a learning and teaching tool,

learning for myself and teaching to others because since I've started really being public about my depression and public about my teeth, especially, you know, pulling the tooth out and showing people on camera, hey, there I am with a big hole in my smile. People are like, thank you. I'm getting so many emails from people saying thank you because I'm having issues like that and I'm embarrassed to leave the house. So many people have dental issues that you don't see them in public because they're at home hiding

or people have depression and they're ashamed to be in public. They're ashamed to be around happy people. They're ashamed to be around thin people. Like I don't even want to go out in public. I just want to stay home because I'm worthless. So when I talk about depression, the people that are dealing with depression, like, oh, you mean I don't have to just lay in bed all the time? You

mean I could actually do things and have a functional life? And it's like, yeah, you can. Or you mean just because I have cosmetic issues in my teeth or wherever else, you mean I can still be out in public and I don't have to be embarrassed? It's like, no, you don't. You can choose to be embarrassed if you want, but you don't have to. No one's requiring you to be embarrassed. Yeah. No, you're able to really connect with people in an honest way. You know, I'm having some pretty significant dental issues myself right now.

And I showed you before the podcast, I'm missing most of the teeth on the left side of my face, the upper teeth. Most of the teeth on the left side of my face, the upper teeth, I have historical dental problems that are, you know, just go back to me being a little kid as well. I think it might be caused by really aggressive orthodontia when I was a kid, just like really cranking up the braces and the headgear and moving teeth around prematurely. And as a result of that, I have tremendous bone loss in all of my teeth. My roots are super short on every single one of my teeth. And I started losing teeth in my early 20s. You know, the back molars were just, you know, like you could literally put a toothpick through the roots in the back, like there was such a big hole and they started coming out. Of course, this is, you know, being an alcoholic and you know eating junk food you know none of these those those are not conducive to dental hygiene i didn't take care of my teeth and i take responsibility for that

but i had some teeth uh you know within the last year that were like you know one tooth i could just i could have pulled it out on camera it was just just dangling. And the dentist, I finally, you know, it was like, I got to deal with this. And basically they just pulled them all out. I have now I have, I'm getting ready to have two implants and the middle tooth will be a bridge. So, and I haven't had that done yet. So I've been walking around for the last six or eight months with a huge gap and you can't really, it's unlike you, it's not in the front teeth. So unless I smile broadly, you don't see it, but you it's not in the front teeth so unless i smile broadly you don't see it but you can see it if i'm in a conversation you can see others you know he's missing some teeth back there and i'm self-conscious about it and i get up and i'm i've been traveling around doing public speaking and i have to get up in front of big

groups of people and talk about health talking about you know optimal wellness and i have this gap in my tooth and i'm self-conscious about it. And I, when people at book signings or whatever, like, Hey, take a picture. Like I kind of don't smile as broadly as I would, because I don't want, I don't want that gap to show because I'm, you know, I'm a, I have an attachment to that. I have an ego, you know, and it's like, so it's not as extreme as what you're going through right now. But what I'm saying is I relate and I'm compassionate and I applaud you for being so transparent and public about it.

As you can probably see, I'm tearing up listening. No, it's not that, it's not that bad. You know, like next month I'm going into the dentist and I'm starting the process of getting that dealt, you know, it's going to be all fixed and fine. But you know, I have huge, you know, but it won't be the end of it either. I'm going to lose more teeth. Yeah. But it doesn't have anything to do with how I'm eating now.

I'm in the reparative phase of all of this. And there's going to be, sometimes it gets worse before it gets better. Yeah. I'm going to, when I go home to Vermont on Tuesday, I'm going to have all four front teeth pulled. Oh my God. Because the other three lost those fillings, and they're quite fragile, so it's only a matter of time before they break. Wow.

Can you get at least like a retainer with some big teeth on it or something like that? They're going to give me a denture, but I won't be able to put the denture on right away because when they pull the teeth out, you know, you can't just put something in there immediately because it's too sensitive. So for a week or so, I'm going to be missing forefront teeth and I will make a video about that. That's going to be a very, very interesting video to watch, Tim. Yeah. And you know, the thing that really scares me, and again, this is a great learning opportunity. I'm going to have to look in the mirror and see my forefront teeth missing, and I'm going to have to be okay with that.

That really puts it to the, that's a real litmus test. Like, can you accept yourself? Can you embrace yourself? Can I still love myself? Can I still be supportive and compassionate with myself in that state? And, you know, there are people that lose more than just their teeth. Excuse me. There are people that lose limbs or, you know, lose eyes, lose their jaw. You know, I've seen some people with some, you know,

horrific disabilities and they still move on. So, you know, for me, it's about, I spend a lot of time studying emotional resilience now and self-compassion. There's a lot of great literature out there on resilience and self-compassion, and there's a lot of scientific data to back it up now. We're actually getting to the point where science is catching up to what Buddhists have known for quite some time, that compassion for self first is the way to resilience, emotional resilience. It's how you bounce back from tragedy by being compassionate, by being a parent to yourself and saying, yeah, you lost your teeth. And I know you're scared and I know you're embarrassed and I know you're self-conscious and you think that a woman, no woman is ever going to talk to you again or nobody's going to take your videos seriously or nobody's ever going to bring you in to speak in an event because clearly you've failed. And it's like, I understand that.

And it's okay. I understand that and it's okay. It's okay. Interesting. I'll help you get through this. So I keep saying that to myself. I will help you get through this. Emotional resiliency in the sense that you can weather whatever is being thrown at you and bounce back. Yeah, bring it.

You know, whatever comes at me. That's power. Yeah. Well, and the thing is, it's not about denying anything. It's not about pretending that the pain isn't there. It's not about pretending that the fear isn't there. It's about acknowledging them, letting them happen, experiencing those emotions, but not running away with them. Not letting your mind create a story about those emotions. Like, okay, I'm afraid. Now I can engage, you know, my cognitive brain and I

can make a story about that fear and never leave the house again. Or I can simply feel the fear and use my cognitive mind to comfort myself in that fear. Right. And not say, oh, don't worry, you know, people are going to like you. No, it's not about that. It's just about saying, okay, you're afraid. I understand. And it's okay. I'm trying to imagine, you know, you missing some front teeth and then, you know, walking into your local coffee shop and having people react to that. And then you, them expecting you to be sheepish about it or sort of self-conscious and you just smiling broadly and saying, yeah, man, like just being like owning it and being okay with that is going to cause other people to like freak out, you know, cause you're

not, you're not giving them the reaction that they're going to be expecting. Yeah. And that's disorienting, I think for people, but also incredibly powerful. Well, it's going to be challenging for some and it's going to be, I think, really helpful for others because it's shocking. You know, we're taught to be embarrassed to these things and we're taught to hide them. In fact, somebody commented on YouTube the other day when I did the tooth video and they said, Tim, I totally disagree with what you're doing. They said, you're not supposed to flaunt your flaws. You're supposed to hide them. And this is what we're taught,

you know, put on a little makeup, put on this, put on that, you know, accentuate the positives and go out there in the world and put your best foot forward. And I've tried to do that. Everybody's trying to do that. And look at where it gets us. We're not a healthy society. Yeah. And I think people are getting increasingly savvy about when people are not authentic in that regard, because we're so used to seeing so much content. We can see, we can see through that stuff pretty quickly. And it's the people that are, are again, to continue to use this word, you know, truly authentic, um, and owning their flaws that I think are the ones that are connecting with people in a meaningful way, as opposed to, you know, I'm on the podium and

you're down there listening to me and I'm the expert and I know everything. And, you know, the implicit in that is that you're flawless and you're perfect and you are going to grace them with your knowledge and it creates creates sort of a power dynamic. You know, and it's funny, Rich, I'm sorry, but my brain plays with words. I just have a little illness. I heard you say expert on the podium, and immediately my brain broke it apart, X and pert, like pert for pertinent. The moment that you claim you're an expert,

you're basically standing out of the flow of life. You say, I have the answers. I've grabbed the answers. I pulled them out of the flow of life. And now I have them and I'm going to write a book about it. And I'm going to tell you for the next 35 years that this is the answer. And therefore I am no longer pertinent because life moves on. Things change. The expert of 20 years ago, his information most likely, if it's scientific, has been overturned completely. And we're entering into new paradigms on a weekly basis, it seems, in science. And anybody that claims that I have the answer and they put their flag down, well, yes, they are an expert because they are no longer pertinent.

The information is outside of the real actual flow of life and it's not authentic. So for me, it's about leading with my flaws rather than leading with my strengths. Because what are people most afraid of? Where is the fear that stops people? What is it related to? It's related to our flaws. So if we can get people to be comfortable with their flaws, then suddenly the fear just kind of melts away. And the fear is the block between that is the information and the action. So what happens if we just address the fear immediately? What happens if we just make it okay to have fear? Yeah. I think the confusion comes in because people think of it as eradicating the fear or they feel bad if they have fear and you know, even everybody has fear.

It's about how you, uh, react to that fear, whether it's blocking you from acting or not, you know, or, or not. Um, it's your relationship to that fear. Yeah. Winston Churchill said that the only thing to fear is fear itself. I disagree. I think the only thing to fear is fear of fear. Fear is fine. There's nothing wrong with fear, but being afraid of fear is problematic. I'm trying to wrap my brain. Hold on a my second I'm catching up to you the only thing to fear is fear itself should fear

the only thing to fear is the fear of so Churchill's saying you know you don't want to fear fear you're saying you don't want to have fear I'm saying it's okay to have fear just don't be afraid of it don't be afraid of your fear just have it and just

and just talk yourself through it like yeah i'm afraid okay and i've used this i practiced this in fact i published a video a week and a half ago about a fight i broke up i biked up mount graylock in massachusetts the highest point and there's a lot of tourists on top because it's an access road and there was this huge fight These guys fighting and hurting each other. And there was blood and it was ugly. And everybody was just watching and people are videotaping it. Going to pop it up on YouTube, I'm sure. And I'm like, this is not okay.

And I really don't like conflict. Conflict makes me really, really uncomfortable. And being a shy person, conflict is the last place that I want to be. But as a compassionate man... Don't go to law school. Yeah, right. Yeah. Oh, wow. I can't even imagine that. But, you know, here I am and seeing these men fighting and bloodying each other. And I just, I couldn't stand by and let it happen. And I couldn't be one of those people that just watched. So I walked over and I said, hi, I'm Tim. They looked at me like, what the hell? You know, they're in the middle of a fight and here's a guy walking and we're saying, hi, I'm Tim.

And it stopped them. And then I just, I started asking them, you know, what they needed. What, you know, sir, you, what is it that you need? And what do you feel you're not getting? And you, sir, you know, what is it that you need? And I just really started breaking it down and having a conversation about what they need and what they felt. Did they engage you or they're like... They did engage me. First, they were really heated and they were just screaming. They were screaming at me, screaming at each other. That son of a bitch did this. And then I finally got,

okay, I get that. I understand. You know, I, and I can see that you're angry. Are you, is it anger that you're feeling? Do you feel disrespect? Like let's, let's name the emotion and then, okay, you, sir, you know, what is it that you're feeling? You know, you're, you're feeling disrespected or whatever. And, and what is it that you want? You know, what resolution do you want here? And I, after like five minutes of talking to them, they're shaking hands. One guy invited the other guy into the lodge to buy him a cup of tea. You know, the fight stopped. The cops who were called were called again and said, you know, it's okay.

You don't need to come. That's amazing. So was the guy who was filming the fight still filming this? I don't even know. I don't find that video. There were like 30 people watching. They were all in the lodge, you know, up against the windows watching the fight in the parking lot. Did they engage you afterwards?

Like, who are you? What did you just do here? No, but the two guys, one of the rangers, he came engage you afterwards? Like, who are you? What did you just do here? No, but the two guys, one of the rangers, he came up. He's like, who are you? What the heck? What is that? Yoda-like character comes in and dissipates the whole thing. Yeah, but, you know, the whole point was this, that I was scared.

First, I was scared because I was seeing violence, and I really don't like seeing violence. It's one of the reasons I'm vegan. But I don't like seeing people hurt each other or being hurt. And I was scared to death to approach them and immerse myself in the midst of that violence and maybe have the violence directed at me. But I just told myself as I was walking over, I said, it's okay. It's okay.

These men need help. It's okay. It's okay to be afraid and still walk towards them. That's okay. You can be afraid and you can still be of service. And it all worked out. And it all worked out. And maybe, you know, maybe I got lucky. I don't know, but you could have gotten punched in the face. I could have got punched in the face and that would have been okay too. Then you could blame your dental issues on that. They could have saved me the money that I was pulling the teeth at. You could sue the guy and he could pay for your dental work. How's that for conflict? What you bring up really kind of dovetails nicely into something that I wanted to get into with you, which is this idea of compassion and how it relates to masculinity.

You know, we live in a culture where compassion isn't exactly considered the most manly of traits, especially if you wear it on your sleeve to the extent that you do. if you wear it on your sleeve to the extent that you do. And I know you have a lot of opinions on this and, you know, the sort of walk that you walk. Uh, and I look at it like a great strength, you know, like a great inner stillness. You know, if you look at the greatest leaders in history, you know, they're not the malevolent dictators. They're the benevolent, powerful ones, the ones that know when to exercise their strength, but just as much know how to exercise restraint and show that compassion, which distinguishes them from, you know, the rest of the group. You know, where do you, like, how do you imagine this? Well, for me, I come at it from two different angles.

One is my own personal experience dealing with my depression and dealing with my shame. I mean, the core of my personality is based on shame. And that's a really hard thing to face every day. You know, I started wanting to end my life in my early 20s. And nobody thought I would make it to 25. I'm surprised I made it to 25. I don't know how that happened. And then how did I make it to 35?

And then how did I make it to 45? But I'm here now. So for me, it's about first being really gentle with myself because i'm still here so let's i consider myself already dead so i might as well be of service with whatever time yeah it's free time now it's like okay the death already happened let's just let's be of service with the rest of the time i have that's a big thing in sobriety too you know when you kind of come back from that brink, it all just seems like this is all a bonus. Yeah, it's just a bonus. Exactly. So why not enjoy it? It's bonus time.

It's a bonus round. Let's have fun with it. Let's help other people instead of what can I get for me? So, you know, that's not, it's one of the reasons I don't make a lot of money is because I would rather help people than just get things, accumulate things. It's more important to me that I make a difference in somebody's life. You know, it'd be nice if there was some financial remuneration for that. But it doesn't have to be a lot. We've got to help you figure that out. So as far as compassion goes, as I said, it's my own experience of dealing with this intense personal shame that I have.

But then I also, if I'm going to be a public advocate, if I'm going to be a public voice for this, I don't want it to simply be the experience of one person, me. I don't want it to be my opinion. I don't want to be a study of one. I want to make sure that the data supports what I'm experiencing. So I study my butt off, reading psychology, neuroscience, Buddhist texts, and a combination of those three disciplines has led me to actually confirm what I've been experiencing. The data supports it. So it's no longer just Tim's opinion.

This is something that is scientifically valid. And what it looks like is this. Compassion, or self-compassion, as opposed to self-esteem, which is what we're supposed to have, you want to have high self-esteem. The metric of a high-functioning person is that they have high self-esteem. People with low self-esteem are low-functioning. So our goal is to they have high self-esteem. People with low self-esteem are low functioning. So our goal is to build up your self-esteem. In fact, there's an entire child

rearing movement over the past 15, 20 years about raising kids with high self-esteem. Like there are no losers. Everybody's a winner. Nobody wins the race. We're going to give every child in the race a number one. So they're all number one. They all get a medal because we don't want to hurt their self-esteem. Right. And I'm not so sure how I feel about all of that. Well, we're learning now we're looking at the data 20 years later, 15 years later, serving anybody. It's not serving them because self-esteem is not the answer because self-esteem is very fragile. People love you when you're up, you love yourself when you're up, but what happens when you're down? love you when you're up. You love yourself when you're up. But what happens when you're down?

What happens when suddenly you lose a tooth? What happens when you lose your job? What happens when you lose a spouse? How do you deal with challenge? Suddenly your self-esteem can go through the floor. It's contingent esteem. Exactly. It's contingent on externalities going your way. Yeah. So I think it's really problematic that we base our identity or our value on those external valuations from others. So self-compassion, on the other hand, is simply about just accepting and choosing and allowing whatever is. Whatever it is. Okay, I'm overweight. Great. I allow that. I accept Great. I allow that.

I accept it. I choose it. It doesn't mean I want to be fat or I want to have no teeth. It's not about that. Like I'm just going to sit here and do nothing. No, but it's first about allowing that this is your reality.

This is the reality you have right now. So let's allow it. Let's accept it. Because the moment we accept it and get present to it, then we can actually take action inside of it. Right. But if we're fighting it and we're shaming ourselves and we don't have high self-esteem, we have low self-esteem and we see the gap between where we are and where we want to be again, we're not going to get there because we're going to say, I can't do that.

I can't bridge that gap. But with self-compassion and taking those tiny little steps and saying, yeah, you don't want to get out of bed. And a lot of people would call you pathetic. The only thing you can do right now is pull back the covers. That's pathetic. You're a loser. Instead of saying that, instead of going down that route, which is the route of self-esteem, external valuation,

I go the route of, well, let's just pull back the covers and feel okay about it let's start there and see where we can go but if you're speaking to somebody who is in that place of low self-esteem and low functionality and and you know in a in that dire state how do you begin to transition somebody like that into what you're talking about? Yeah, well, I do this as a coach quite a bit. I start with getting them to talk to themselves in a compassionate way, because most people are beating themselves up. And they just come at me with a barrage of negative things about themselves. And I just accept everything they say. Yeah, okay. Yeah, okay, You're this. Oh, great. That's okay. You know, you're overweight. That's okay. You

live with your mom and you're 60. That's okay. You, you, you do this. That's okay. Um, you don't brush your teeth. That's okay. It's all okay. Right. That's very different from a more traditional conventional approach would be, which would be something along the lines of, stop telling yourself that, like coming at it from an aggressive, like, why are you, you know, you realize like the more you say that about yourself, the more that's what you bring into your life. Like you're creating this reality for yourself

and sort of browbeating somebody into, and I think that just fuels the problem. Well, I mean, I've tried that approach. It doesn't work. It doesn't work. You know, stop being so negative. Stop taking yourself so seriously. Dude, look at the positive, be grateful, practice gratitude. And when people express, again, these platitudes, they're not really present to the experience of the person that they're talking to.

So they're basically dismissing what the person is feeling and dismissing what the person is saying. So the first thing that I do is I go in and say, it's okay. Whatever you're saying, it's okay. I don't judge you. You might judge yourself. Other people might judge you, but I don't. I accept you exactly as you are. And I embrace you. And I love you exactly as you are where you are right now, because this is where we're going to start. We're going to start right here at the start line. We're not going to start 10 miles into the race. We're not going to start at the finish line

because that's what people want to do. They want to manifest the finish line right now. I'm going to do law of attraction to manifest the finish line in my life right here. And I'm like, no, no, we're going to go back to the start. And we're actually going to start there. And we're going to run the whole race. And it's going to be tough to run the whole race. It's not going to be pleasant, but we actually going to start there and we're going to run the whole race and it's going to be tough to run the whole race it's not going to be pleasant but we're going to do it

and maybe it's a double iron man that we're going to be running and it's going to take a long time but we're going to get started and before you know we are going to be done so and the thing that i experience with people is that when i accept them and i don't judge them and they keep questioning me really that doesn't bother you you don that when I accept them and I don't judge them, and they keep questioning me, really? That doesn't bother you? You don't think I'm a loser? You don't think I'm pathetic? It's like, no, I don't. I think you're amazing. But I do this, yeah, and that's okay, and I still think you're amazing. And, you know, but I haven't exercised in five years. Yeah, I get it.

It's okay. I still think you're amazing. And it's just getting them to see that they don't have to beat themselves up. They can actually embrace who they are. So again, back to the studies, back to the data on this. When you tell yourself to just stop saying that, stop thinking that, stop being so negative. There's something in psychology called ironic rebound. And ironic rebound is this. Stop thinking about a white elephant. Right, well, of course, that's all you can think about.

And we know that's all you can think about is the white elephant. They've done numerous studies on this. So if you tell someone to stop being negative, stop thinking about the negative, what are they going to do? They're going to think about it more. Because there's actually two areas in the brain that are processing thinking. One is looking out for the threat because if you tell yourself that something is a threat, okay, these negative thoughts you're having, they are a threat to your wellbeing. So you need to

stop having them. So part of your brain is constantly on the lookout for these threats. And in order to be on the lookout, it has to keep them in its focus. It's also looking for evidence to support whatever that story is that you're telling yourself. Exactly. Because it's like, oh, danger. Okay. These negative thoughts are a danger. So let's keep them in mind so we can recognize them.

So it's always processing that thought. But if you say, conversely, think about a gray elephant, instead of stop thinking about this but do this something that is an affirmative action affirmative action will will be uh you know a switch yep but affirmative action that accepts the state that you're beginning in that accepts your present state like okay first let's acknowledge the state that you're in. I'm waking up and I don't want to get out of bed. Let's acknowledge that. Let's not shame ourselves for it. Let's not say I should be this and I should be that, but this is where I am.

This is how I feel. Okay, great. That's where we're going to start. I'm not going to tell you to stop thinking about how pathetic you are. I'm simply going to get you to pull back the covers. Right. That's it. What I love about that is that that's the real work.

You know, if somebody says, I want to run a marathon, well, that's fine. That's a concept. Either they will or they won't. And when they do, if they haven't addressed whatever is fueling that desire, whatever self-image issue is going on or what have you, they're going to cross that finish line and sink into a depression because it didn't solve that problem now they need to run an ultra marathon right then or an obstacle course it's no different from you know oh when i get that car you know or when i get that house listen you know living in hollywood it's like you see that every day i know so many incredibly wealthy people that are miserable and they can't get off the habit trail of chasing that thing of if if I just close that deal or if I just, you know, this movie happens or if I get, you know,

if I can take my beautiful house and upgrade it to this house, then it will. And they know, they know. And, you know, I know that intellectually that's not the solution, but you can't get off that train. Yeah. And there's something else we now know from modern neuroscience. Dopamine is the chemical of desire. And when we look at people that have things that we want, dopamine is produced. When we look at ads in LA, you're surrounded by billboards, advertising. You live in the one state where they don't allow billboards. There are no billboards. So you're in sensory overload being here. Your dopamine must be going crazy. Yeah, and I don't watch TV. So, you know, I'm not really present to the advertising culture that really informs most of America.

So when you're looking at those billboards and looking at the magazines and looking at the advertisements on TV, billboards and looking at the magazines and looking at the advertisements on TV, what they're doing, they have neuroscientists working for these companies. Ad agencies all have PhDs in psychology and neuroscience working for them. There's not an ad agency out there that doesn't have PhDs of the mind on staff because they know how to trigger desire. they know how to produce dopamine in somebody's mind because they know that if they show certain images and they do all kinds of test studies like which image is going to produce the most dopamine and they actually have people wired up they're actually you know testing their brains to see okay is it this image or is it this one okay it's that one let's run the ad with that image in there. Because we know that when people see that image, they're going to be filled with dopamine, which is going to cause them to desire things.

But there's a problem with dopamine. And dopamine is essentially the chemical of addiction as well. Dopamine promises a reward and doesn't deliver it. And that is addiction. And we now know that basically it's not that there are, you know, we have an advertising addiction. There are different levels of addiction in the mind. Some are much, much more extreme than others. But it's all fueled by dopamine. And people basically get addicted to having more and more and more and more. And they can't stop because they're surrounded by these really powerful stimuli that hijack your brain. They're designed to hijack your brain.

Very smart people designing images to hijack your brain. And it works. Yeah, it works very well. I mean, look at a perfect example is the iPhone 6, which is a beautiful phone. I definitely want it of course dopamine is flowing when i have a perfectly functional iphone right now and the iphone 6 does a few i'm like oh but the camera's so much better you know i need that and you can do wi-fi calling with the iphone that's right right all right? All these things. And I'll just loop that, you know?

Yeah. And I don't need it. Yeah. You know, I don't need that. But how do you, you know, how do you have the awareness and the wherewithal to hit the brakes on something like that? It's very powerful. And listen, you know, I have an incredibly addictive personality. Like I'm primed for anything that's going to trigger that dopamine response. You know, it doesn't have to be alcohol or drugs. It can be any number of things. So you have to be incredibly vigilant to find ways to extract yourself out of that. You know, we pulled the plug on our cable TV. Oh, wow.

We still, you know, we didn't even have, we had internet here, but until like six months ago because we're in this rural kind of section they didn't have dsl so we had really slow like it was almost like dial-up speed so you could send an email but like if you wanted to stream a netflix shit like forget it right and we lived that way for a long time and we pulled the plug on the cable primarily because we were noticing how it was impacting our young girls. You could see the difference in the behavior. And so we made that decision and I was not happy about it. And I went through like a withdrawal, like, you know, I need my TV, you know, and now I don't

think about it. I still watch stuff on that. Now we have DSO, we have decent internet here and, you know, we'll watch documentaries on Netflix. And if there's something I want to watch, I'll download it on iTunes or whatever. But my relationship to that machine is very different. You know, it's not really the addictive kind of go-to thing to check out that it used to be. But it's made me much more conscious and aware of how profound its pull is. Yeah. You know, one of the things that I've started practicing, and this is a tool that I've learned from modern neuroscience studies. Whenever I feel that dopamine desire coming in, I pause for a moment and this, it

takes practice. This is, it's a muscle that you can build, you know, it's not an instant fix, but I pause, I stop and I say, okay, what is it you're feeling right now? What are the physical sensations that you're feeling? Because I can feel myself being drawn to something. And okay, what is it? Where is it in the body? What does it feel like?

And what, what is your brain telling you right now? Like what desire is it promising? Okay. Is it real? Have you had this thing before? And if you have had that thing, does it deliver on the desire promised? And the answer is almost always no. So once I get present to that first, what am I physically experiencing?

So that gets me out of my thoughts for a moment and into my body. I'm now using like a mindfulness practice, like tuning in, checking in with everything. And then, okay, what is my brain telling me I'm going to be rewarded with? And is it true? And if I think about it for just a second, it's like, you know what? Yeah, I did that before and I actually felt worse after. And then boom, it's off. You think it's through all the way through its conclusion. And that's another thing you learn in sobriety is when you have a craving comes up,

like, oh man, it would be so great to like go to that, go to the beach and crack a beer. And you know, just what's wrong with that? You know, like there's nothing wrong with that. I think I could probably handle that. But then you think it, like think it through past past that like what's going to happen after that then you're going to feel lousy that you did that then you're going to beat yourself up like oh you you ruined your sobriety you threw away all this time for that and then you're going to walk around with

this craving and maybe you won't drink for a week or a month or six months, but you probably will again because you crack the seal on that. And you're trying not to think about it. Yeah. And like nothing really bad. He's like, and I know that's not headed in a good direction. You know, so it's thinking it past the event that's triggering you to the aftermath of that. Yeah. And trying to sit with that and experience that.

That usually snaps me out of that. But the exception, exercise, going running. And how does that fit into it? Like this sort of wanting this kind of dopamine release experience that you get from going out on your 20 mile run. Well, desire is very different than reward. See, we used to see that.

That delivers on the promise. It delivers on the promise. The dopamine can get you out the door, but there are endogenous opiates in the brain. We have opiate receptors in the brain because we actually produce them. Endogenous means that our brain produces them. So we have endogenous opiates and serotonin and oxytocin,

all which make us feel good and rewarded. So the dopamine tells you to do something, but then it doesn't deliver on the promise, but these other chemicals can. And running helps, runner's high, is basically these endogenous opiates in the brain and serotonin and oxytocin. There's all kinds of feel-good chemicals that get released in the brain when you run.

And man, am I high on life when I'm running. So I can start that day in bed, not wanting to get out, saying it's too cold, I'm miserable, what's the point? But then suddenly there I am running for two hours in the snow below zero and I'm having the time of my life because now I've got these other chemicals coursing through me. And it's like, what depression? Well, you're just an addict.

Yeah. I mean, do people throw that at you? Yeah, they do. But for me, it's not that I have to run. It's not something I have to do. But I also, I don't think that human beings were meant to sit. In fact, we have a lot of data to support this now. We're not meant to sit and do nothing all day.

We are designed to be physically active. So it's not like there are people that, you know, if you exercise several hours a day, you're an addict. It's like, actually, our bodies are designed to move for hours a day. That's what they're designed for. It's the people that are not moving for several hours a day that are the extreme, that are abnormal physiologically. But culturally, it seems like the people that are active are the ones that are abnormal. And they're actually just functioning the way the body was meant to function. It doesn't mean you need to train for hours every day, but you need to be physically moving around and not just sitting all day.

So back to this idea of compassion, I want to kind of shine that spotlight on away from self-compassion in the individual and, and shine it more on like the movement, right. It's sort of plant-based movement. And I think we touched on this when we talked previous, but you know, there's, there seems to be a certain lack of compassion in the plant-based world, or maybe it just, maybe it's just diet wars in general, you know, sort of what camp do you fall in, whether it's Mediterranean or paleo or low carb or high carb, or all the subcultures, you know, that are underneath the plant-based umbrella, the 80-10-10 or the, I don't know, the David Wolf avocado, whatever it is, it doesn't matter.

There's a lot of bickering and there's a lot of dissonance there. And it can be, I sort of choose to kind of exempt myself from all of that because I find that it's a lot of people who are already converted arguing amongst themselves about what's right and who's better. Uh, and I'm more concerned about the average person who's out there struggling, who, you know, is very far from even being part of this world to begin with and trying to connect with those people and show them that maybe they can be healthier through doing a few simple things. But it gets, it's, I guess it's, you know, it's frustrating or disappointing when I, when I see all that.

And I don't, I don't always know how to manage it. Like there was this whole thing with the Woodstock Fruit Festival and there was a lot of arguing going on and still between camps and all that. Were you at the, you were, did you go this year? Yeah. Yeah. So, um, and, and a lot of that just upsets me. I don't know what to think about all that.

So I'm interested in your perspective. Well, there's a couple of ways to look at this. Again, I always go back to the science. And one of the things that people really experience, first of all, when you change your diet, there's many reasons to go vegan. It's not just one reason. Not everybody does it for health reasons. A lot of people do it for animal advocacy, animal rights, but they don't eat a healthy vegan diet. I'm vegan, but as long as I eat all the

vegan junk food in the world, I'm good. I just care about the animals. So there's compassion for other, but not really compassion for self because because still eating a standard American diet just in a plant-based form. And now that, you know, these great restaurants, Veggie Grill and Native Foods, which are amazing, I'm glad they're there, but there's a lot of vegan junk food. Yeah, it's a double-edged sword. There's never been more vegan alternatives available, but there's a lot of processed crap out there, too, that tastes really good and is great for helping people make a transition, but it's very easy to fall prey to eating a very unhealthy vegan diet. And thinking that you're healthy because now you're vegan. So, you know, saying I'm vegan and therefore I'm healthy. Well, not necessarily. You can be a really unhealthy vegan. And I was.

Right. That's part of your story. For quite some time. Yeah. So back to the data and compassion. So people that become vegan for health reasons and they have a physical transformation, as you've experienced, as I've experienced, they want to tell everybody. And most people don't want to listen. So they have to talk to other vegans. And they're excited because I had this transformation.

And so they seek other people out who've also had a transformation. And they really, they bond. And it's a really strong bond that forms. And I've seen this, especially in the raw food world, because it's even more isolating or, you know, considered extreme to be a raw foodist. So you really need to find allies to support you. So you really seek out your kind. And there's a self-righteousness or a group righteousness that forms. Like we're better than everybody else. We're superior. You know, we're the only ones making the right choice and everybody else is doing it wrong. Even the vegans are doing it wrong if they're not raw. Or if

you're not 80-10-10, then you're not doing raw food right. Or, you know, there's all this hierarchy that forms. And we know that oxytocin is the chemical in the brain that causes the bond with other people. And it can be a child bonding with its mother, or it can be two raw foodists bonding together because they share similar diet experiences and they're grateful that they now have somebody to talk about it with and, you know, put up pictures of their bananas on Instagram and Facebook together. Look at my bananas. Look at my bananas. Well, the army did some studies with oxytocin a little while back because they have a real problem now with the guys on the ground bonding with each other, because again, it's the me generation. So how do you get people

to fight for each other? How do you get them to bond and work together as a team? They're having a real challenge with this. Right. When everyone's walking around with a t-shirt that says it's my world and you're just living in it. Exactly. And if you don't like it, well, then you can go do something with it. And, you know, so how do you take that culture and make them bond? So they, we have an oxytocin nasal spray now that is given to mothers who are not bonding with their children. They can spray it in their nose and suddenly the mom bonds with the child. It's that fast. So the army started spraying the troops with oxytocin nasal spray and seeing what happened. And guess what? They bonded. So they had this, you know, really cohesive group

forming and they're like, yay. Okay. We've, we've got to figure it out but there was one side effect they bonded with their peers but they were much much much more likely to be violent and aggressive with anyone that was not part of their group that's like some serious primate brain right stuff going on so it's like the mom, mama bear and baby bear. If you run into mama and baby, mama is not going to be happy. And she's going to pop a cap or pop a claw in your ass. The oxytocin is running hot and fast. It's like, I love my baby and I want to kill everybody else. So it's this protective mechanism, like protect your group and attack everybody else.

So yeah, this really primitive primate brain and, you know, oxytocin, we think it's the love chemical. Yeah. It's the love chemical for people you're close to. It's the hate chemical for people you're not close to. Yeah. And just extrapolate that out to, to religious groups, political groups, any kind of group affiliation. And you can see that at play. Yeah. It's interesting. So, you know, that's not the end of the story. It's simply about having an awareness. We are not simply the dictates of our brain chemistry.

You know, it's a part of it. It causes tendencies. It can cause certain feelings to arise in us. But again, that's where the mindfulness practice comes in. Like, okay, there's an emotion rising in me. There's a feeling rising in me. There's a feeling rising in me. There's a judgment towards you rising in me. Okay, let's just notice that.

Let's not act on it. Let's not speak on it. Let's just notice it. Let's see if there's anything valid there or is it simply a chemical in my brain right now that's causing a certain reactive tendency? And am I going to be immediately reactive or am I going to pause, take a time out

and say, wait a minute, is this really, is this necessary? Did this person really do anything wrong or are they simply them, you know, us versus them? So I think you're seeing a lot of this in the vegan movement. You know, you have people that are really bonding closely and hating everybody else. So I think that's part of it. Um, but also we have this again, you know, primate reactive mind that, uh, simply wants to make others wrong if they don't share our belief systems. And, you know, it's all part of the tribal nature of humanity. You know, we grew up in groups of, you know, 20 to 50. Right. Small groups of people. Small groups. That's what we really thrive in. So now you put us in a very large group

and we're always trying to find our small group inside of that. And then everybody else is not the group. So let's attack them and vilify them. So being a member of, you know, the raw food movement, you must have people trying to rally you to say this or that, or take a stand, or, you know, whether it's against or for, how do you confront that when approached? I have consistently or continuously pulled myself off of the pedestal anytime somebody tries to put me in that position. Okay, Tim, you're an authority. You need to speak on this. You need to support this group,

demonize that group. And it's like, no, no, no. The only group that I identify with is humanity. And it's about just pulling back and pulling back and pulling back, pulling away from race, pulling away from religious affiliation, pulling away from everything

until the only thing that you can see is you're human. Okay. What do we have in common? Well, we're human. And I think that's the most important thing to have in common. And what do humans have? Well, they have brains and brains are challenging. Brains are not easy to live with. So the fact that you are a human being with a brain makes me feel compassionate for you because I know you have struggle as well, because there's not a human being alive with a brain that does not have struggle. So that's where I connect with people now. So I don't even really, I don't use the word raw to define myself anymore. I don't use the word vegan. I'm simply a compassionate human being and that's it. Now, do I eat a plant-based diet that's predominantly fresh fruits and vegetables? Yes. That's not my identity. plant-based diet that's predominantly fresh fruits and vegetables? Yes. That's not my identity. That's what I put in the gas tank. My identity is a compassionate human being. That's it. It's the

only group that I want to identify with. It's a hard road to get there though, because I think we're also hard, hardwired and maybe it's part of this, you know, oxytocin component to, like you said, identify with a group. We want to be, you know, we want to be aligned with a team. You know, who's your team? The winning team. Is it the Green Bay Packers? Is it, you know, whatever it is, we want to, there's something inside of us that craves that. Yes.

Right? Yep. Undeniably. I think that's a big part why spectator sports are a huge thing. Like, you see it played out in many different incarnations in our culture. you see it played out in many different incarnations in our culture uh but to be able to say oh i feel that pull but i'm going to you know take a different tact yeah and and that's the muscle that you have to work it starts with awareness it starts with noticing the rise in you okay i'm a yankees fan here comes a red socks fan and immediately i see their hat and i get all

like in a row it's like okay oh i'm feeling something right now all right what is that okay do i really need to call them a name or remark or or can i just feel that and let it go like because underneath the hat is a human being now you're just a threat to masculinity in general, right? How can you even call yourself a man? Right? No team affiliation, come on. It's blasphemy. It is tricky when you try to signal men with this message. You know, it's not a message that is comfortable for a lot of men to even talk about,

let alone really embrace. And I get attacked. Man, do I get attacked. Well, YouTube commenters are the worst. On YouTube or beyond YouTube? On YouTube and email. Yeah. And here's how I deal with that.

Because again, if I'm going to call myself a compassionate man, well, I better act like one as well. Saying it is one thing. Being it is very different, especially when the heat is on. So if somebody attacks me on YouTube and you wouldn't believe the comments, I'll refrain from using the language, you know,

reflected at me, but I don't respond with attacks. I don't call people names. I want to, I have that urge. I feel the emotion rising in me. I just want to attack, you know, and I can, I'm good at that. You know, if I really want to use my intellect to humiliate someone i'm really good but that's not what i'm committed to that's not my commitment in the world it's not what i'm up to so i pause i feel it rise breathe in i notice it i breathe it out yep i'm angry oh i'm okay i'm i'm jacked right now okay just feel it feel it breathe it okay notice it and let it go all right don't fight it don't try to Breathe it. Okay. Notice it. And let it go. All right. Don't fight it.

Don't try to resist it. Just deal with it for a little while and let it go. Most emotions only last for like 10 to 20 seconds unless you think about them. So do you generally not engage with commenters at all? Or are you selectively engaged? I do engage. And the way that I engage is with questions. So if somebody calls me a name or tells me that I'm this or that,

I will respond by saying, okay, why did you leave that comment? What is your intention? What did you hope to gain? Is it that you're trying to make me feel bad? Are you trying to elevate your status for others who might read that comment? Are you getting street cred by knocking me down? What are you getting at here? Really, what is it for you? What is the reaction? And you'd be surprised at the reactions. People are stunned. They're like, well, he didn't fight back. You know, he's just asking me questions. And just like I did with the fight that I broke

up on Mount Greylock, I asked the guy's questions, you know, what is it that you're feeling? What is it that you need? What is it that you want? So I asked them, you know, what do you really want? And they may call me another name. And then I asked them, okay, well, clearly I've done something that's upset you. So what is it about what I'm doing that upsets you? What does that bring up in you? What is it triggering? And then they start to think, and maybe they respond, well, you know, guys that talk about this stuff are weak. So I ask another question. Did someone tell you that you were weak because you had an emotional experience? Did you cry and somebody called you a name? Did your dad say something or a coach say something to you because you expressed vulnerability? Like what happened? Where is this coming from? And you would be surprised at the conversations.

You're doing like a Vulcan mind meld. And I've turned people and not that that's my goal, but again, I really, you know, it's not easy because I have that, I'm a man, I have testosterone, I get violent and it's like, oh, wow, I really want to do some damage right now. Breathe in, feel it, acknowledge that, okay, yep, all right, violence, uh-huh. And let it out. And now ask a question.

And sometimes I'll wait a couple hours And now ask a question. And sometimes I'll wait a couple hours before I ask the question. Well, that's always a good idea. I'll walk away. You should never respond in the heat of the moment ever. I don't get that much sort of troll-like behavior on my stuff, but occasionally. And I had an experience actually even yesterday. I posted on my Facebook page, it was an article that Neil Barnard had written about the impact of the beef industry

on the environment. And it was pretty straightforward stuff. And it was consistent with this documentary conspiracy that I'm involved in. And it was relevant to share. And there were some really, there was a lot of great comments, but there were some nutty ones there. And one guy in particular just came at me pretty hard. And I'm like, I don't get that much of that. I'm not that used to it. And I ignored it. And then I went, it was like four days ago or something like that. And then yesterday I was like, I'm going to engage this guy. I want to, I'm going to see what happens. Cause I never do. I usually don't do that. And I do it very graciously. Thank you for your comment.

You know, I understand what you're saying. Here's kind of where I'm coming from. It's very neutral and all of that. But some people, you know, they really are trolls. Like they're just gonna go and go and go and go until you give up, you know? And this, I kind of went down the rabbit hole with this guy a little bit. And I did a good job of holding an even keel

with the whole thing. But it definitely, like I can feel the emotion rising in me. Like, this guy's not hearing what I'm trying to tell him. He doesn't want to hear it. So he wants to have the engagement. He wants to have the dispute. So if you're talking about the data, because you've got your data, they've got their data, you've got your opinion about the data, they've got their opinion about the data,

and as long as it's a conversation about the data, not going to get anywhere. But it rarely is. It rarely is. In that context, it usually isn't. So that's why you go underneath. Like, where is this coming from? What is your intention?

What do you want? How have you been hurt? How is this affecting you? And really getting to the bottom, and suddenly they feel taken care of. Wow, somebody's listening to me. Somebody cares about me. What?

And you'd be surprised at how they often, they back off or they'll apologize or, you know, sometimes it takes 20 emails, 20, you know, responses before you really get in there. And like, what is it that you're really about? Especially on YouTube. Yeah. But it works. Why is YouTube the worst when it comes to, is it because you can be more? Especially on YouTube. Yeah. But it works. Why is YouTube the worst when it comes to, is it because you can be more anonymous there? You're anonymous.

You're sitting, it's not real. It's like the difference between facing somebody eye to eye and getting in a fight with a knife or sitting in a room in Florida controlling a drone that's dropping bombs in Syria.

You know, you don't have to see the human suffering. But that's true of all the social media. I mean, all the different platforms for commenting. It's removed from interaction. Something about YouTube is unique as compared to Facebook or even Twitter. I don't know what it is,

but it seems to really attract much more aggressive. I think because it's more voyeuristic. Whereas Facebook, you have your page and you're presenting your life, but the vast majority of trollers on YouTube don't post a single video. They just watch other people's videos. Right. So I think it's more voyeuristic. Interesting. Whereas Facebook is about, here's my life. Here's your life. You're my friend or you're not my friend. But with YouTube, it's more like I'm going to watch other people live their lives and talk about life. And I'm just going to toss bombs at them, but you have no idea who I am. I'm not even going to post a profile photo. You know, I am nobody. That's interesting. So what are you doing

here in Los Angeles? I came out here for a race that I decided not to do again. You know, and as I move forward athletically, and I don't know where you are at this point athletically, but you know, I've, I've won a lot of really big races. Um, most of them, I won between the ages of 40 and 44, but now I'm, you know, 46 and, uh, dealing with an injury. So I'm still really, really fit, but I don't want to enter a race, not do well. And then people say, ah, the diet doesn't work. So I want to leave the data where it was. Like I've got all these, you know, us championships and runner of the year titles. If I continue racing now, I may actually do that a disservice. That's an interesting thing to explore.

It's something that I'm grappling with right now. You know, there's a big part of me that feels like I still have some stones unturned and some things that I would, you know, I don't feel like I've had my best race at Ultraman. You know, I feel like there are certain challenges out there that I think I can conquer and I'm attracted to trying to see if I could do those things. But at the same time, counterbalancing that against what my priorities are. And now, I don't know that I really have anything to prove. And what gets me excited and out of bed in the morning is trying to figure out ways to be of service in this movement. How can I help people? And that's what really gets me enthusiastic about my life. And as a result of kind of showing up on a daily basis for this process, I've been given

opportunities and those have been great avenues to explore, to continue to spread this message and help people get healthier. And if I make that decision to, let's say, train for Ultraman, that's a huge time commitment. Yeah, that you can't do this. And like yourself, I'm not going to show up at a race half cocked. Yeah. You know, I'm not the guy who can go and run a marathon every weekend and just do it with the people. Like, if I'm showing up at a race, I want to be able to look anybody in the eye and say, I did everything I could to prepare. I'm ready to go. I'm 100%. And in order to do that, a lot of other things in my life have to get sort of pushed aside temporarily or don't get

the attention that maybe they deserve. And so I'm weighing the consequences of those right now. And if I'm out on a five hour ride, is that the best way to serve this message? Maybe it is. Maybe not right now. Maybe like when I'm 50, it is. I don't know. You know, but right now, like podcasting has been fantastic. It's a huge time. You know, the amount of time that I was training, I'm podcasting, you know, I'm doing, I'm just channeling that energy in different directions. Uh, and I don't know that

I know how, you know, it's all going to work out, but I, you know, I know what that feels like. I know where you're coming from with that. Yeah. You've already got the credibility that got you the podcast. You did the work, you, you put in the effort and the time training and competing, uh, established yourself. Now here you are. It's given you the platform to speak from. And, you know, same with me. I did the work. I've got the platform. I didn't do it to get a platform, by the way. Like, you know what I mean? Like, you're doing it to do it. And now for some bizarre reason, I have a platform, but, you know, I'm enjoying the platform. So anyway, sorry I interrupted you. Good, no, no, that's a great point.

See, and that's where you and I are different and yet the same because I did it to get a platform. But now that I have the platform, I feel kind of strange about that. It's like, I don't wanna be the guy in a platform anymore. It's like, I got the platform and it's like, ooh, I don't think it's about a platform. Well, platform maybe has a pejorative ring to it.

It's not a soapbox. Yeah, it's about you have an ability, you have access to people's ears and eyes right now. And that carries a responsibility with it. Yeah, well, you know, as far as the training goes, like I am still training, just I have to train differently due to my injury. But for me, it's an opportunity. I always multitask when I train. I listen to lectures and audio books. And as I'm driving around L.A. as well,

I will listen to a book every other day, like a full-length book every other day, or I'll listen to five or six lectures, maybe four to six lectures a day. It used to be biochemistry and physiology through iTunes University, iTunes U. iTunes U is day. It used to be biochemistry and physiology through iTunes University, iTunes U. iTunes U is amazing. It's amazing. Stanford's

got tons of stuff. I've gone through so many courses at Stanford, Harvard, MIT, Yale. I went through a clinical nutrition program at the medical school at the University of Wisconsin, which was amazing. And I did that while running. You know, it would be cool if you could get maybe after the

show, give me a list of some of your favorites and I can put those up in the show notes so that people could access that directly. I'll have to, when I get back and look at my computer, tell you what they are. But yeah, it's incredible what you can learn while you're training. So for me, uh, if I'm going to be sitting at a desk doing research, well, I don't want to be sitting. I don't want to spend my day sitting. So for me, training is an opportunity not just to get fit and get outside and get those positive chemicals in the brain, but also it's an opportunity to learn something.

And if I am going to be an advocate, I want to make sure that I'm current. I want to make sure that I'm not an expert, that my information is not outdated. So I want to know what the latest in neuroscience, the latest in psychology, the latest in nutrition. Or the latest studies on diet and health. Because we're getting new studies coming out all the time, so I have to keep up. So I'm just continually downloading things to my iPod and then going out into the university of adversity as I train, you know, in the mountains. The university of adversity. I like that. That should actually be a real institution. It should. Let's do it. Let's create it. So you came out here to do a

race that you didn't do, but now you've, you're, you've been hanging around. You were up North for a couple of days. Well, I was going to go up North and I decided not to. I'm thinking of moving back to California from Vermont. I think my time in Vermont is done. I need to be around people that are, Vermont's full of great people. Nothing wrong with Vermont, just that I like the excitement of California. People are here to make things happen, big things happen. And sometimes that's good and sometimes that's bad. So I think moving out here would give me a greater

opportunity to spread this message and be a much more impactful as I do that. Yeah. We talked about that the other day and I encourage you to do that. Plus you don't have to worry about running in the snow anymore. Right. I think I would miss it. So do you have a, so it i mean when we what was that a week ago when i ran into you it seems like it's more of a cemented idea now than it was even a week ago yeah well that's what the trip is it's like okay let's come back to cali and get a feel for it does it feel like home are there opportunities here and you know i think that's important not just for me but for anyone like you know are you living in a place that really feels like home and is it sourcing you is it supporting you because you

can have dreams and you can have goals but does the environment around you support those dreams and goals is it supporting your highest good maybe it is maybe it isn't and if it isn't I think you really need to take an inventory and address that and maybe move. Yeah. There's no question that people are here to make things happen. And that can be a negative thing if you're not grounded, you know, but I think you're very grounded. You're very conscious and aware, and you know what your mission is. And I think that sort of self-awareness and sense of self that you have, you know, sort of exonerates you from the negative pitfalls of being in Los Angeles, in Hollywood, right? Well, you know, it's, it's interesting to see how I behave here as opposed

to Vermont. Do you, you notice your behavior changes? I notice my behavior changes. So give me a taste of that. Yeah. And it's funny. I laugh at myself. Uh, for instance, uh, running in, um, Pasadena today ran up, uh, Echo mountain, which is really steep. It climbs, climb like 3,500 feet. Where's the trailhead for that? I've never done that one. The end of Lake Avenue. So Lake Ave is like one of the main thoroughfares north, south and Pasadena. Take it all the way till it dead ends in park there's the trailhead is right there excellent i'm gonna check that out and you know seven years ago when i used to live here there was nobody on those trails it was me i was alone in the mountains here now it was packed so a lot has changed so you know you're running along or i'm running along and there's a

lot of beautiful women out there it's la and. And I noticed that my speed increases, you know, and I'm like running up a really steep mountain. I'm climbing 3000 feet in three miles. And yet I feel that there's still that shame in me that that's not good enough. Like I'm already running up a mountain, a big one. Right. And there's a part of me that thinks, well, that's not going to be impressive enough. Let me do it. Oh, there's an attractive woman.

Let me even pick up the pace more. As I pass her. As I pass her. Until she's out of sight. Until she's out of sight. So, you know, and I catch myself doing this, and it's the funniest thing because, again, you know, I've got that core of shame in me.

So what you're really saying, though, is that this doesn't happen in Vermont. It doesn't happen in Vermont. No. No, in Vermont, I just really don't care. I run at my pace. I train at my, I do whatever. I don't care about what I'm wearing or, you know, my teeth or hair or whatever else. Well, the now, the teeth thing.

But yeah, I notice it more here because you just, you can see it in people's eyes. You can see that they want to be noticed. They want you to be impressed somehow. And I'm sure you can feel this. You know, when I lived here, I felt it. But going back to Vermont where nobody's trying to impress somehow. And I'm sure you can feel this. You know, when I lived here, I felt it, but going back to Vermont where nobody's trying to impress anybody and then coming back to LA, you really, just to hit you in the face, like, wow, everybody's putting on a show. Not everybody, but you know, a large portion of the population is trying to keep up, trying to be good enough

because there's so much competition. But what they don't realize is everyone's so self-obsessed that they're not noticing. They're not even noticing. No, they're not noticing how fast you can run up the mountain because they're worried about how their ass looks in those tight pants. They want to know what you think of them. Yeah, exactly. And, you know, another thing is, is like I said to myself today,

as I noticed that, it's like, wait a minute, Tim. Okay, first of all, all right, I see what you're up to. Just chill out, relax. Doesn't she know that i'm a 10 times u.s master's national trail champion she needs to understand this needs to know let me make sure my calves are flexing the right way to really enhance the muscle as i go by her you know whatever the crazy things that people do i see you see guys walking around flexing their biceps or flexing you know the push on a table as they lean in to flex their tricep.

You see it all the time, whatever. And I say to myself, okay, even if she was impressed by what you just did, let's say she was, you're not stopping. What does that mean? Are you going to stop and talk to her? Because if you want to run by her and impress her, well, that means you're not stopping, which means you're not going to talk to her. So does it really matter what she thinks of you?

Like, what are you doing? No, it speaks to where you're at. Like, what is it that inside of you that feels the need to make sure that she notices you or is impressed by you? And what is lacking inside of you that still needs to be addressed and cultivated? And again, that's an opportunity to practice self-compassion, which is what I do when I catch myself doing this. Like, Tim, it's okay. You're insecure.

I get it. I understand. And it's okay. Right. And congratulations. Congratulations. You're a human being and you're a red-blooded male who saw a pretty girl on the trail. It's like, I mean, you know, that's a natural reaction. So why would you beat

yourself up for that? You're doing what every single guy would probably do. And you know, the funniest thing is rich. Um, I do get a lot of positive comments from men in my videos, but more often than not, I get positive comments from women who tell me that they are just so grateful to see a man being vulnerable. And what they're teaching me, what women are now teaching me, which is amazing, is that they're not really impressed by guys being tough and macho. What they're impressed by is vulnerability. What they're impressed by is a guy being authentic and being honest.

Well, because if you're willing to be vulnerable with another person, then that is a giant demonstration of your self-confidence. Yeah, they see it as a sign of strength. Yeah, you're not threatened by sort of talking about something that you're not good at or a weakness because your sense of self is not threatened by that. You're intact, you're respective. And I think that's a core strength that trumps, you know, whatever foible it is that you're actually talking about.

Yeah, it's been a huge lesson for me. So as far as compassion, you know, emasculating men, it's actually doing the opposite. It's showing women that I believe that you're more of a man because you're not afraid of your flaws. Again, you know, the fear of fear. I'm not afraid of my fear. Like, you know, the fear of fear. I'm not afraid of my fear. Like, you know, what is a coward? Someone that's afraid of their fear. Where like, I'll go into battle

and I'll be scared to death and I'll admit it. I'm scared, but I'm still going forward. I'm still going to take the steps. I'm still going to take the hits. I'm still going to fall on my face, but I will get up and I'll keep moving, embarrassed or scared or not. I will not stop.

And, you know, and women respond to that and men respond to that. It's like, wow, respect, okay? So the takeaway, Tim, is if you wanna get chicks, be vulnerable, is this what you're saying? Anathema. Yeah, I mean, you could look at it that way. Yeah, there is a takeaway there, but it's really- I know, but it's not a pickup line, but it's, it's not a pickup

line. It's simply, it's not that just other people are going to respond to you and give you what you really want to begin with, but you're also going to feel better about yourself. It's not just for them, but it's really about how you feel about yourself. The main theme of this show is how to unlock, unleash, become your best, most authentic self, right? And so authenticity is huge touchstone of this program and kind of, you know, informs all of these conversations and the guests that I choose to have on. But authenticity, you know, begins and ends with being honest with yourself and being honest with others about who you are, you know, and there's a lot of

healing for a lot of people that has to take place before somebody can truly embrace that. So if somebody is listening and they're thinking, these are all fine concepts, but, you know, I'm still, I'm sitting on my couch and I don't feel great about myself. And I don't know, you know, even what the next action is to try to break this cycle that has been holding me back my whole life? Like, what are some words that you could share that might be helpful to people out there? Well, the first step is to allow yourself to feel whatever it is that you're feeling and not to shame yourself for it. Either, there's two things that happen. People go into denial about what they're feeling or what their reality is,

or they shame themselves for it. And the people in denial are actually harder to help. It's the people that are shaming themselves that are easier to help. So if somebody is really ashamed and beating themselves up, great, I've got an access point. Yeah, because they're not,

they know what their problem is. Yeah, they know what their problem is, but they're like, I know what my problem is and I just, yeah, I am the problem and I'm no good and therefore I have no value because I'm the problem. What about somebody who is in denial? Someone who is in denial, it's again, it's about asking questions.

You know, it's about, instead of just accepting them and embracing them and saying, it's okay, like bring it, throw me your worst and I will say it's okay. With somebody in denial, it's about what I do on YouTube, asking those questions. Because anybody that's going to attack you clearly thinks that they're in a superior position or have a superior belief system,

which is ridiculous. Nobody has a superior belief system. So that clearly tells me they're in denial somehow. They're cherry picking the data. They're a victim of confirmation bias or motivated reasoning in psychology. So I just ask questions until I get to the bottom of it. I mean, by definition, somebody who's in denial is somebody who doesn't believe that they need help. Right. And I think transformation begins with breaking denial and accepting that, you know, there's work to be done. But until somebody's ready for that, you can't make somebody ready. You can't make somebody willing.

Absolutely not. Billions of manpower hours have been expended, toiling, trying to get somebody to change who doesn't want to change. Yeah. In codependent situations all over the world, in all different kinds of shapes and forms. So, you know, I think it's about meeting people when they're ready. Because you can't make that transition for somebody... No.

...to readiness. But you can plant seeds. And to me, the seeds are always in the form of a question. You know, I do this with the protein conversation. This is, you know, people come at me, clearly their diet is superior, clearly their physique is superior, at least clearly to them.

I'm looking at them, I'm like, wait a minute, I'm not getting it. But, you know, you're deficient in protein. And I ask a simple question, like, you know, well, what is protein? Please define protein for me. And some people know it's made of amino acids. know, well, what is protein? Please define protein for me. And some people know it's made of amino acids. Okay, well, what are the amino acids? Very few people know that. What are the essential amino acids?

Fewer people know that. Okay, what do amino acids do in the body? What distinguishes one from the other? How do they operate? Very, very few people know this. And you start breaking it down, breaking it down, breaking it down until they get to the point where they say,

I guess I don't know. I don't know. So people have, denial is about a sense of certainty. I'm certain that this is the way, whether it is or not, I'm certain that it is. I'm certain that I am better at driving

than the vast majority of people. I'm certain that I could play at driving than the vast majority of people. I'm certain that I could play football better than anybody on the field right there because I'm yelling at the screen telling them how they should do it. I'm certain that I have the answers, but clearly the vast majority of people are simply average and not above average, but most people want to think that they are. And that's the way the brain's wired. It's no fault of anyone. You know, I'm not judging anyone. It's the way the brain is set up to convince us that we're above average. But in these cases, by just exposing where the holes are in that certainty, you can get someone to kind of wake up and maybe possibly, not necessarily, but possibly admit that they don't have all the answers or that their certainty is a little shaky.

It's on shaky foundations. If you push them, they will push back. And this is the whole, you know, compassion with vegans thing. Right. You know, if a vegan says you're wrong for eating meat, well, the meat eater is going to push back. And you're killing animals, well, you're killing plants. You know, there's going to be pushback.

But if you ask them questions like what Cowspiracy is doing or what Earthlings did or what many of these other great documentaries are doing, they're simply like, okay, well, here's some information that maybe you don't know. So you're not necessarily asking a question, but you're presenting information that might change that certainty. Maybe they're not going to be so certain anymore. And that's a seed that you can plant. I think it's important to do that without an expectation of outcome. Yeah, no expectation. Or any attachment to how the person is going to respond to that.

I mean, usually in those situations, they still, you know, march off, you know, angry or whatever, because you're challenging their current belief system, but it's a seed and maybe they'll reflect on that seed later at a time when they're ready to entertain a different idea. Yeah. And this isn't just about diet and this is about anything. Diet is the same conversation as any other challenge that we have between people. It's just, it's the same psychology. Right. All right, man. Well, you can get an Airstream and move on to the... Yeah. Move on to the... We'll set you up right over there.

Oh, the view here is incredible. I wish your audience could see the... I was driving in looking at Saddle Peak. I'm like, wow. It's really blessed to be out here. And yeah, looking out at that mountain right over there and be nice to run up there right now. Yeah, it's dramatic.

Such a dramatic landscape. Yes, we are building our commune. Okay, so I'm getting the Airstream and I'm not gonna fix my teeth. I'm gonna put that money into an Airstream. I'm gonna be toothless in your backyard. But living in a trailer. Do you have a... Well, it's gonna start snowing in Vermont soon, right?

Yeah, we've already had frost. So let's pick up sticks, man, and make this happen, right? Cool. Well, thanks so much for taking the time to talk to me. It's an absolute pleasure. And I just want to say that what you're doing is extraordinary. And I am so grateful that you have taken this on and that you're approaching it the way that you do. taken this on and that you're approaching it the way that you do. Every time that I hear you speak,

I just hear such a, not only such an articulate voice, but a gentle voice. You know, you don't use your intelligence to attack or to belittle people. You, you simply, you get people to gently engage in conversation. And I, that's so important and so valuable. And I'm really, really grateful for what you do and what you stand for. Thank you, man. I appreciate that very much. Yeah. I mean, I'm not here to judge other people. I'm not here to tell anyone what they should or they shouldn't do.

I'm here to share my experience and to share, you know, the experience of the guests that I bring people on. I allow people the space to make their own decisions about what that means in their own life. And, you know, I kind of start every show with saying, you know, look, I'm gonna have all these people on here. You're not gonna agree with all these people, you know, take what resonates with you, discard the rest. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Maybe next week, you know, you'll hear something

that does work for you. So, you know, it's been fun. It's been hard. It's been very gratifying though, man. I'm excited to see, you know, where it's all leading. Yeah. It's good right now. Awesome. So cool. So thanks so much, man. You're an inspiration. I loved that conversation that we just had. There's so many, so much good stuff in there and I really appreciate it. And I think we really did go beyond the kale today. Yeah. Right. Do we talk about kale at all? I don't think we did only using that phrase beyond the kale. Uh, cool. So if you're digging on Tim, the best way to connect with him is the running raw

YouTube channel. Right. And, uh, but you're on, you're on Facebook, running raw on Facebook, running raw on Facebook. Twitter is, uh, Tim. I don't even know. Oh, you haven't been tweeting very much, have you? But if you go to runningrod.com. I noticed you tweeted when we ran into each other the other day, but your avatar is you with like really long hair. And I was like, didn't even look like you. Just before I left LA. So that picture's like eight years old now. Yeah, come on, man. You got to update that. I need to change that. Cool. And are you speaking anywhere coming up or anything else you want to let people know about? Yeah, I'm going to be speaking October 11th at the Catskill Farm Animal Sanctuary.

Oh, cool. So there's two animal rescue places north of New York City, one in Woodstock and one in the Catskills. I think it's Catskill, New York. So I'm there October 11th. So if you're in the New York area, come on up, check that out. So if you're in the New York area, come on up, check that out. And then I'm going to be doing some talks up in the Bay Area in early November, Sacramento, San Francisco area, and New Jersey in November. You can go to my website, runningraw.com, and see the dates for that.

Excellent. And hopefully back here in L.A. giving some talks, too. All right, man. I'm holding you to it. All right. Cool. Done deal. Peace.

Peace. Plants. Wow. All right, everybody. How was that for you? Pretty amazing, right? Tim is a pretty special guy. I hope you enjoyed it. If you did, don't forget to check Tim out. The best place is his YouTube channel, Running Raw. I'll put links to the various ways to connect with Tim in the show notes, along with a listing of some of his favorite audio books to accompany you on your long runs, your commute at work, what have you. He shared with me a long list because we talked about it in the show and I wanted to be able to provide that with you guys. Also, please, if you haven't already, give us a review on iTunes.

We're approaching a thousand reviews. It would be great to hit that. So do me a solid, take the two minutes required to go to iTunes, drop the review and share a little bit about how the show has impacted you. If you're in Los Angeles, don't forget to check out Joy Cafe,

fueling awesome, as is the cafe's tagline. It's right in the heart of Westlake Village in the West Valley, off of Gora Road in the heart of Westlake Village in the West Valley off of Gora Road and the 101 freeway. You can find me there, I don't know, three, four times a week at lunchtime. So come by, say hi, introduce yourself to Joy and Nick, the main owners, get some delicious food and leave feeling great. If you want to stay current with all things Plant Powered, subscribe to my newsletter at richroll.com. It is the only way to get exclusive content, deal sales, discounts on

products, podcast updates, and I promise you, I will not spam you. Along those lines, if you want to meet all your plant power needs, go to richroll.com and go to mindbodygreen.com for my online courses. If you want to go back and listen to my first interview with Tim, really the only way to do that short of scrolling through my website is to get the free iOS app in the iTunes app store. Totally free. The only way to access every single episode in the RRP canon, the RRP of, all the way back to episode one, and have it all in the palm of your hand. So check that out. Continue to support the show, you guys. Thank you so much. Tell a friend, use the Amazon banner ad. You can donate. There are

buttons on the site and please keep Instagramming. I love that. Don't forget to tag me at at rich roll and share with me and the world how you're enjoying the show, where you're enjoying the show, and what is going on in your life. If you're a longtime listener, maybe you remember my podcast interview with YouTube filmmaker Casey Neistat, and maybe you even saw his latest YouTube video. It's a video called Snapchat Murders Facebook, and it's a pretty entertaining look at the ascendancy of Snapchat as a real player in the social media space in terms of sharing video content. And I'm on board with it. I'm an early adopter. And I've been sharing little snippets, little video stories

about my life, sort of a day in the life of food or training or just being a dad or a husband. life, sort of a day in the life of food or training or just being a dad or a husband. They're pretty hacky, amateur, little sort of looks, you know, peeks into what a day in my life looks like. So if you're into that kind of thing, you can find me there. My name there is I am Rich Roll. I-A-M-R-I-C-H-R-O-L-L. The assignment. This is where we're going to leave it today. This is what I want you guys to do this week. I want you to take a look at your life, take a look at your past experiences, and identify the things about yourself, your personality, your past, your actions that are still causing you pain, the things that you still refuse to totally accept about yourself,

the things that keep you hung up, the things that are holding you back. And I want you to do an inventory. I want you to take out a pen and a pad and write down what these things are. And then I want you to identify one such habit, thought, or idea and explore that by writing about it

every single morning this week in your journal. And at the end of the week, I want you to make a decision to truly accept that aspect of who you are without shame, without regret, without remorse, because it is this level of true acceptance that is the first step, the first stage, as we talked about today on the show, in ultimately healing it and overcoming it. Until next week, peace. Plants. Thank you.