The Rich Roll Podcast - Tom Scott On Curiosity, The Power of Story & The Lost Art of Conversation

Episode Date: April 16, 2018

There is nothing more powerful than a story well told. Built into the very fabric of what makes us human, this ancient art holds the power to transform not just the individual but humanity at large. Nobody understands this better than Tom Scott – a man devoted to the idea that when curiosity, conversation and community converge, the world indeed becomes a better place. A graduate of Brown University with a Masters of Divinity from Yale, Tom is perhaps best known as the co-founder and original CEO of Nantucket Nectars. Founded in 1989 — long before it was cool to be a start-up founder — the fruit juice venture quickly grew to national prominence, making the “Inc. 500” list of fastest growing U.S. companies five years in a row and garnering Tom accolades, including the Mercury Award for Advertising and Ernst & Young’s Entrepreneur of the Year award. After selling Nantucket Nectars in 2002, Tom reinvented himself as a film and television producer. In 2004 he formed Plum TV, which owned and operated a network of stations around the country and received more than 14 Emmy awards. He produced television ads for companies like Nike and BMW. He created and produced the HBO series The Neistat Brothers with 3-time podcast guest Casey Neistat. And in 2010 he won an Independent Spirit Award for producing the feature-length film Daddy Longlegs (also with Casey). Tom’s current passion is The Nantucket Project. Akin to TED but much more intimate, TNP is both an annual event and a movement — gatherings large and small (plus a new podcast, The Neighborhood Project) that bring together thought leaders across a wide range of disciplines to explore the most relevant, cutting-edge ideas and the implications such ideas pose for the betterment of culture, society and business. I have known Tom since 7th grade. We attended junior high and high school together. These were not my favorite times, so it was incredibly healing to revisit that era with someone who was there. We discuss Tom's entrepreneurial success. What he aims to achieve with The Nantucket Project. And the power of story to inspire wonder, cultivate community, ignite change, and unite us in this most divided time. I've been waiting 30 years to have this conversation. Honest, intimate and personally meaningful, it's exactly the exchange I always hoped it would be. You're in for a treat. Enjoy! For the visually inclined, the podcast is viewable on YouTube here: http://bit.ly/tomscottandrich If you are enjoying the video versions of the podcast, please subscribe! Peace + Plants, Rich

I think my bliss might be curiosity. You know, I really like to learn. I just love to consume information in whatever form. And in the end, it's very satisfying when I can learn something and then share it. So yeah, I do think in a way, storytelling is a big part of what I do, but it's all driven by curiosity. That's Tom Scott, and this is The Rich Roll Podcast. The Rich Roll Podcast. Hey, everybody, what's happening? How are you? What's going on? My name

is Rich Roll. I am your host. This is a podcast. It's my podcast, the show where each week I dive deep with the world's most compelling changemakers, people who are making a difference, making a difference in health, nutrition, fitness, sports, spirituality, the environment. And in the case of today's guest, let's see what comes to mind. Business, entrepreneurship, community, entertainment, creativity, Tom Scott. Tom Scott is the guy I'm sitting down with today. Tom Scott is a guy that I've known since seventh grade, essentially most of my life. I must have been 14 when I first met Tom. And he's a fascinating human, as well as an incredibly accomplished

guy. He's an entrepreneur. He's a filmmaker. He's a family guy. But I think primarily, if I had to drill his talents down to just one word, I would say storyteller. By way of background, Tom is perhaps best known as the co-founder of Nantucket Nectars, Tom is perhaps best known as the co-founder of Nantucket Nectars, which is this juice company that he started almost on a whim all the way back in 1989. He grew it into this behemoth, and ultimately him and his business partner sold the company in 2002. Then Tom has this new chapter where he reinvents himself as a film and television producer. 2004, he forms this company called Plum TV, which garners 14 Emmy Awards operating a network of stations around the country. Tom also created and produced the HBO television series,

The Nystad Brothers, which stars, you might not be surprised to hear, three-time podcast guest and giant YouTube star Casey Neistat. In fact, Tom was the person who first introduced me to Casey back in, must have been 2011 or 2012. Tom also won an Independent Spirit Award for producing, along with Casey, I believe, a feature called Daddy Long Legs, which was a film that premiered at Cannes and also screened at Sundance. But Tom's current focus is this thing that he created a couple of years ago called the Nantucket Project. And the Nantucket Project is, how do I describe it? It's an event. It's really a movement. It's sort of like TED, the TED conference, but much more intimate. That brings together incredible leaders across a

wide range of disciplines to talk story, to talk ideas with an eye on creating a better world. This truly is one of the better conversations I have had in recent memory. I love it. And much remains to be said about it. But first. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming

and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care, especially because unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. It's a real problem. A problem I'm now happy and proud to share has been solved by the people at recovery.com, who created an online support portal designed to guide, to support, and empower you to find the ideal level of care tailored to your personal needs. They've partnered with the best global behavioral health providers to cover the full spectrum of behavioral health disorders, including substance use disorders, depression, anxiety, eating disorders, gambling addictions, and more. Navigating their site is simple. Search by insurance coverage, location, treatment type,

you name it. Plus, you can read reviews from former patients to help you decide. Whether you're a busy exec, a parent of a struggling teen, or battling addiction yourself, I feel you. I empathize with you. I really do. And they have treatment options for you. really do, and they have treatment options for you. Life in recovery is wonderful, and recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time.

It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care, especially because unfortunately, not all treatment resources

adhere to ethical practices. It's a real problem. A problem I'm now happy and proud to share has been solved by the people at recovery.com who created an online support portal designed to guide, to support, and empower you to find the ideal level of care tailored to your personal needs. They've partnered with the best global behavioral health providers to cover the full spectrum of behavioral health disorders, including substance use disorders, depression, anxiety, eating disorders,

gambling addictions, and more. Navigating their site is simple. Search by insurance coverage, location, treatment type, you name it. Plus, you can read reviews from former patients to help you decide. Whether you're a busy exec, a parent of a struggling teen, or battling addiction yourself, I feel you. I empathize with you. I really do. And they have treatment options for you.

Life in recovery is wonderful, and recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. Tom Scott. Like I said, Tom and I go way back. We went to junior high school and high school together. Those were not my favorite times. So it was great. It was really great to revisit that era with Tom. And I have to say, it was pretty healing for me. In truth, I think it was more than pretty healing for me. I think it was tremendously healing for me. And we talk about that. It was great.

We also talk about Tom's story, of course, which is amazing. And we talk about story in general, the power of story to inspire, to raise consciousness, to create community, to really unite us in this most divided time. So even if you've never heard of Tom, you don't know Tom, I think you guys are in for a treat. This one is personally meaningful to me for stated reasons, but I think you guys are going to really connect with Tom and this conversation. So let's do this. So I've had lots of meditation teachers and meditation experts on this show.

I just had Bob Roth on. I've had Sharon Salzberg, people like Dan Harris, Andy Puddicombe, who founded Headspace. But nobody has suggested that we do a meditation before the podcast. So that's a first for those that are listening. Tom suggested we do a two-minute meditation before we begin. And that was beautiful, man. Thank you for that. Yeah, I was glad we could. Good, thanks for doing it. Set the space. We're all on the same wavelength now.

And we're ready to go. It's great to see you, man. You too. We were trying to remember the last time that we bumped into each other. And I think it was at the five year reunion where I had a brief conversation with you prior to that, it would have been high school graduation. So many, many years, but I've kept

tabs on you over the years. I'm certainly well up to speed on, on everything that you're doing. It's super impressive and I'm proud of you, man. It's really cool to see what you've done with your life. And I'm excited to talk to you about it. But one thing I think, usually when I go into these podcasts, I do a ton of research and I wanna be totally up to speed on everything. And for you, I thought, you know what? I know what you're doing. I'd rather just kind of forget about that

and try to have a real conversation with you and reconnect with you, man. Cool. So I'm glad that you're here. you and reconnect with you, man. Cool. So I'm glad that you're here. I'm glad that you're here. When I did see you at that five-year reunion, I do have a vivid memory of a conversation we had,

which was something along the lines of me asking you what you were up to. And it was the middle of winter. It was freezing out in Washington, DC. I said, what are you doing? And you said, I'm living on Nantucket. I was like, year round in the winter? And you're like, yeah. I'm said, what are you doing? And you said, I'm living on Nantucket. I was like, year round in the winter? And you're like, yeah.

I'm like, what are you doing there? You're like, I'm making juice. I have this juice thing that I'm doing. And I remember just thinking, that sounds like the worst idea. I can't, like who would do that, you know? So the joke is on me with that. And, you know, that's obviously a huge part of your story,

but I'm super interested. You know, I don't know. Like, I think it's your lore obviously a huge part of your story, but I'm super interested. You know, I don't know. I think it's your lore. It's part of your lore. But I do, I think that any degree that you thought it was crazy makes sense. I'm not just saying that. Well, who, like, first of all,

how many people live on Nantucket in the wintertime? Yeah. More nowadays. Yeah. But yeah. It was a different thing. You serve them like a summer sort ofet in the wintertime. Yeah. So more nowadays. Yeah. But yeah, it was a different thing. And trying to serve them like a summer sort of beverage in the middle of winter.

Yeah, well, you know, here's the funny thing. Like I was thinking, I've followed you as well. And I just so admire like the, I don't know, the commitment, I don't know if that's the right word, but health is a very big part of it, right? And I was thinking, you know, there's a big part of me that I feel distant from being in the juice business.

I feel distant from that person. I feel distant from that time. And I don't think of it in terms of a healthy thing, right? In what way? Well, if you go back to those days, it was such a... Let me give you a story. I'm 24 years old. So I'm three years, two years out of college. And someone comes up to me and says, hey, Tom, you're a real entrepreneur. And my first thought was, fuck you. You know, and because I didn't know what it meant. I thought it meant shyster. And

you know, I tell that story because that's how different it was back then. Yeah. The idea, I mean, now being an entrepreneur is the equivalent of being a rockstar. Everybody wants to be a founder. Everyone knows the word. Yeah. Everybody's social media profile says they founded this or their CEO or whatever, but back in, you know, 92 or whenever it was that you started this thing and no one was talking about starting their own businesses. That was kind of a radical idea back then. The idea of being an entrepreneur, what is that? Well, and even, and I still feel that way now. Like when I think about your life, I appreciate, which I think is common. I mean, I appreciate your, what I know of your life,

you know, your competitiveness, your, I don't know, clearly your health, some of the things that you pursue. And that's what attracts me. You know, I'm not that interested in your business, no offense. I'm not, I'm just not that interested in businesses overall. But the idea that you're, you know, the things that you do on a daily basis, the things you learn, the things you see, it's really interesting to me. So when this person called me an entrepreneur, I legitimately thought, no, I make juice. You know, and it was like an offense to me. Like, I didn't do this to be a business person. Well, again, I thought it was a person on to me. I didn't do this to be a business person. Well, again, I thought it was a person on the take.

I didn't really actually know what it meant. Sounds corny, but it's just that. So this was, we started in 1989, and I'm going to guess this was like 91 or something like that, as you said. But a different time, just a very, very different world. But you didn't get into it to create some massive enterprise. Like you were just having fun. You love juice.

You love making juice. You would get in these boats, right? And like hand deliver them, you know, home delivery or whatever. And that has like a, there's a romantic veneer to that. Yeah. You know, and it, I must say like kind of deservedly so. You know, there came a time, let me be clear.

There came a time where we knew this was true. That we, you know, there came a time where we knew this was an interesting idea, that it was an interesting story that could sell and did sell. But not in the beginning. I mean, in the beginning, if you remember, when we graduated from college, the economy was terrible. Right. I couldn't get an interview. I didn't know what I wanted to do. But, you know, you go to career services to get interviews.

And, like, my friends would try to get interviews at Goldman Sachs. I didn't know what that was. I didn't either. I mean, people don't understand that back in that time, pre-internet, you would go to your career counselor office at college. Like, we went to two of the best colleges in the world. And there'd be pamphlets for, like, Boston Consulting. And I was like, I don't even know what that is. Like, it didn't seem like there were that many options. And everybody was just lining up to do interviews at investment banks and consulting firms and anything outside of that was either med school or law school and that's kind of where it ended yeah no i know it's so true you know and i think about like my friends who would apply like they they wanted to work at like merrill lynch in banking so i thought they're gonna be bank tellers legitimately i didn't know i was like oh you're gonna be so- I moved to New York and lived with three guys

who were analysts at Morgan Stanley. And to this day, I have no idea what they went to work and did all day. Yeah, and that is very different. I mean, kids in high school know what Goldman Sachs is. We did not know that. I mean, it was just a very different world. How would you even know that that would be something

that you would wanna do? Yeah, I don't know. I don't know either. Well, I mean, you know what? It's funny. On my flight tonight or today was Michael Douglas. That was the only thing we knew about Wall Street was Wall Street. Right.

The movie. That was the only thing I knew. And by the way, that might not have been out yet. I don't think it was. I think that came later. Maybe it did. Yeah, did you tell him that? No, I didn't say words.

You don't. He didn't wanna be bothered. That's really funny. Well, I'm trying to remember, like I have this memory. You told me that you were just recently back in Washington for a funeral for the wife of Lowell Davis, who was the athletic director of our school at the time. And, you know, I've been thinking in kind of wrapping my head around, you know, seeing you today, like remembering my high school experience, which I wrote about in

my book, like, you know, I didn't have a good time at Landon. Like that was not the right place for me. The culture just was antithetical to the kind of kid that I was, like this sensitive kid. And I tried, like I tried to fit in. Like I, you know, I've known you, like my daughter's 14. Like I think I was 14 when I met you. Like I've known you most of my life.

Yeah. And I remember joining the basketball team in seventh grade and I was just God awful, you know, and I was appropriately mocked for that. And I remember that you, you know, you were somebody who was always, you know, very good at sports, excelled at school, extremely handsome. Like you were a popular kid and your best friend

was Neil Phillips, who was inarguably the best athlete at the school, who went on to Harvard and we can get into his career and his life, cause it's inspiring. And we were talking about that previously, somebody who to this day is still, I presume is your best friend to this day, right? And the two of you guys always treated me kindly and fairly when you didn't have to as sort of the kingpins of the school

when some of the other kids weren't. And so I wanted to thank you for that because that was a difficult, like seventh, eighth, ninth grade, it was just really hard years for me. And it's funny because I'm interested in your recollections of Landon and your thoughts on that. Because when my book came out, like they reached out to me, they're like, oh, will you sign a copy of the book?

We want to put it in the library. And I was like, did you read the book? Like, I didn't exactly paint, you know, the best picture of the school. And that's something that I've had to kind of come to terms with and make peace with over the years. Like it was what it was. It was fine. I got an amazing education, all of that. But I think, you know, it damaged me socially and probably contributed to my alcoholism in some way. And I'm cool with it now. And so I think for you to be sitting across from me is a very, you know, it's a symbolic. And so I think for you to be sitting across from me

is a very, you know, it's a symbolic kind of full circle moment for me to kind of reflect back on that time. So when you think about that period of your life, like what comes to mind? Yeah. You know, it's funny. I didn't know,

you know, I know the story from the book and I didn't know most of that, honestly. I just, maybe I should have paid more attention. I don't know. I don't know. I mean, we're just kids. Basically, I just ended up kind of withdrawing socially from the school and just got into swimming. And then that was like my thing.

Well, so that was a tough place. It was a very male-dominated, athlete-dominated place that... But that nonetheless, I still... I have a lot of friends from there. I've had an interesting relationship with it over the years. But I didn't know. To be clear, I didn't know how I might have played a role in the way he felt. I never knew. And because some of the names, you mentioned at least one name in the book that is a guy who was a friend of mine. I haven't seen him in years. Yeah. And I've since, I actually regret calling him out and I've had communication with him. And I have another version of the book coming out

in a couple of weeks and I changed all of that. You did? Yeah, I think that was, that mention came out of resentment, you know, and I don't think it was fair to him. So I thought that was inappropriate. I mean, it was a pain point for me for sure. Yeah. And I'm sure he's a, you know,

perfectly nice human being now. Yeah, I think he is. I mean, you know, I think with those kinds of things, did you see Wonder? I haven't seen that yet. My daughters have seen it, but I haven't seen it. So I watched it with my kids and it effectively, it tells the stories

from the different sides, where there's these conflicts and there's a kid in particular who has a tough time. And I don't know, I think of a lot of those things. I mean, you and I have addiction in our past, and I sort of think of some of the challenges that I've been through in my life and the way I interpreted certain things. And, you know, generally speaking, it's funny, I had a guy the other day friend me on Facebook or, you know, asked me to be his friend on Facebook. And it's a tough one for me. I haven't said yes. And it's because my interpretation of our relationship is really negative, like really, really negative. And I don't know in the end sort of how I feel about that. But going back to school, I mean, I guess that it's amazing how much the world has changed.

And having been there a couple of weeks ago, so I was back at Landon where Rich and I went to high school, where you and I went to high school, and Neil Phillips spoke. And as I was saying to you earlier, Neil runs a school for boys of color. It's a charter school in Florida. And Neil's on the front lines every day. Neil sees it all. Like all the stuff that I can sort of theorize and sort of look at from afar and read about and try to understand, he deals with on a daily basis. And as a result, and he's running his own school, which just imagine that, right? A startup school, which you're always-

African-American guy running a school for underprivileged kids of color. Is it all boys? All boys. All boys of color in Florida. In Florida in a very low-income, suburban blight-ish kind of neighborhood. And they don't love him. Public schools don't love charter schools, and some of the community does not like what they're doing. There's a big portion of the community who does love what he's doing, and he's amazing. I mean, he is just like, this is a guy whose intentions were always in a good place,

but now he practices on a day-to-day basis. Anyway, he gave one of the remembrances of Nancy Davis. Nancy, yeah, Nancy Davis. And it was just beautiful. It was beautiful. I mean, I think if you were there, you would have appreciated just, you know, here it is. How long has it been? 30 years? More? 32 years? 32 years. And there's something about a funeral, the thoughts that go into a funeral and just the time and the relationships and the

people and the fact that, you know, we're all in our fifties now, we're not kids anymore. And I just, when Neil was done, I thought like, what a special moment, like what a special guy, what a special moment. Yeah. He's very, he's a very gifted orator. And like I said to you before the podcast, like I watched to you before the podcast, like I watched his presentation at the Nantucket Project. Was that last fall or last? Yeah, that was last fall. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean, it was very moving. And I thought this guy should be speaking all the time in front of audiences constantly. Like he's very impactful in his message and his delivery. And I wish that I had been there. I think that would have been a healing moment for me because I was sort of famously at war with Lowell Davis the whole time that I was there.

Cause I just wanted to get an exemption to go swim and he wouldn't let me. And I was like, what is wrong with it? Like he didn't like me, I didn't like him. And here we are 32 years later, like, let it go already, man. I never knew that. So he didn't like him. And, you know, here we are 32 years later, like, you know, let it go already, man. You know, I never knew that. So he didn't want you going swimming. Well, what happened was I started to, you know, get good at swimming and I wanted to take it to the next level. And

that involved, you know, joining a club team that would require me to work out basically every day from like, you know, three to five or whatever it was during the sports period at Landon. And for those that are listening, Landon, it's just, you know, it's traditional prep school in suburban Maryland. And like you said, like sports was a big deal there. And they prided themselves on their mandatory sports program. Every boy that goes through Landon goes through our sports program and there was no swim team. And I was like getting really good at swimming. And I wanted to be able to take the sport as far as I could.

And that required me going to Lowell Davis and saying, can you let me out of your mandatory sports program so I can go swim for this club? And I'm going to train. Like, that's what I want to do. And he was like, absolutely not. You have to go. And I was like, come on.

So I had to write this petition and i had you know i had to jump through a million hoops and ultimately he kept shutting me down and malcolm coates who was the headmaster at the time kind of came to my aid and said come on man let this guy do you know this is what he wants to do let him do it and even malcolm was like well you know don't you think you know you need to learn how to play tennis. And, you know, what if you're going to need that? And I was like, come on, man, let me do it. And so he did. And I think Lowell was not happy about that. So we were kind of like chilly around each other for the rest of the time. But what happened was senior year, I wanted to compete in the high school championships, the local high school championships. And in order to do that,

you need to be a member of a high school swimming program, landed in high school championships. And in order to do that, you need to be a member of a high school swimming program. Landon didn't have a swim team. So I figured out a way to start one with Malcolm Coates' help and kind of piggybacked into a few dual meets to jump through the hoops that I needed to, to like qualify for this meet. And that was like the little seed, you know, that, okay, well, they're technically, there's a swim team at Landon now, even though I was the only one who was part of that, but now there's a team, you know, so it's cool that now there's a swim team there that I feel like on some level I helped initiate. But, but, you know, I sort of been walking around for 30 years, like, you know, gnawing my teeth about Lowell Davis. And so had I been present to see Neil, you know, speak in that regard, I think would have been good for me. Yeah.

You know, I'm gonna give you my side of your story, which is limited of course, but I know what my side of your story is, which is, by the way, didn't our team actually do well, our team of one? We did pretty well, yeah. I mean, you were the only guy on the team. And I remember like, I remember an announcement

that said something like the such and such competition happened and Landon came in whatever. I think I remember that too. I think Malcolm Coates, like he really like championed me. He like took care of me. Like he was fond of me and that was a precious relationship for me. So he made a point of like announcing that.

I remember at school. Is he gone? I think he passed away. Yeah. Yeah. I think he passed away. So I got, yeah, I got second at Metro's. The guy who beat me ended up making the Olympics. So I don't feel so bad about that. But anyway.

Well, so I remember you as very sweet kid, very nice kid, really fit kid, you know, and like a star, like I was cognizant enough at that time. And I would say we, cause I know I remember talking to Neil about it. That the fact that you went to swim at Stanford from Landon was like a miracle. You know, that was a big deal.

Imagine, you know, you think today, I doubt many kids make it to Stanford as swimmers where they don't even have a high school team. Although now it's probably an AAU thing or something. Yeah, I mean, it's mostly, most of those kids come through club, not high school anyway. And it's much harder now than it was then but you know

thank you for saying that well but i but i do also um i just remember you as like a i would have said happy sweet a little awkward but you know definitely awkward uh basically sleeping through study hall you know drooling on my books in the library. And, and, but I felt, I felt apart from like, I think it's that, I think it's, it's alcoholism, like always feeling like you don't fit in or you can't relate to people. And I kind of took that and isolated myself. So, you know, I played a huge part in separating myself from everybody else. I think at that time as well. Have you been back? I think I've driven by it. I haven't been on the campus.

So maybe I need to do that for my own sake. You know, the new headmaster, I think you'd really like, a guy named Jim Neal. I don't wanna go into it really, but I had some issues with Landon for a while. And my father, you know, my father works there. My father's a teacher there. I didn't know that.

Yeah. And your brother went to Landon. My brother went to Landon. He was on the board for a while. But my father teaches the history of war. And he, you know, he's been there for, I don't know, 10 years. Wow. He retired and he's now a teacher at Landon.

That's crazy. It's amazing. That is crazy. He, you know, he's, I think't know, 10 years. Wow. He retired and he's now a teacher at Landon. That's crazy. It's amazing. That is crazy. He, you know, he's, I think he's 80. I should know this. He's 80, he's about to turn 81. And he can barely hear. And I don't know how he does it, but the kids love him.

The kids love him. So. That's cool. So let's talk about you. I think of you as a storyteller. It seems to be the thing that is the anchor or the consistent kind of theme that runs through everything that you've done since Nantucket Nectars, whether it was Plum TV, you know, the movie projects and television projects that you've been associated with, and we can get into that. And now what you're doing with Nantucket Project,

and then this new podcast that you just launched as well. But ultimately it boils down to telling stories and helping other people tell stories that matter. Yeah. You know, it's funny. I've been reading, have you read much Joseph Campbell? Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's funny. I've been reading, have you read much Joseph Campbell? Yeah. Yeah. So I've had like a reunification with Joseph Campbell in the last, I don't know, few months. And then yesterday I watched Finding Joe. Have you seen that documentary?

No, I haven't seen that. It's pretty good. You know, it's like a nice Joseph Campbell survey course. And, you know, this notion of finding your bliss, which, you know, I think so much of like the struggles I've had in my life are built around fear. And I always felt like a fraud academically, you know. I can't read very well. I know that sounds crazy, but my SATs were really good except reading comprehension. Like you put me on reading comprehension, I read the paragraph or whatever,

and then I go to the questions. I'm like, I've never heard of these people. I don't know anything they're asking. And to this day, it's really hard for me to read. Now, I just crank through books, audiobooks. I got really into audiobooks as they kind of flourished over the last little bit. But I think my bliss might be curiosity. I really like to learn. I just love to consume information in whatever form. I do a lot of it by listening now. And in the end, I get a great... It's very satisfying when I can

learn something and then share it. So yeah, I do think in a way storytelling is a big part of what I do, but it's all driven by curiosity. So what was the driving curiosity that led you to create Nantucket Project? You know, frustration was a lot of it. I'll say that our world is shallow. I mean, we live in a shallow world. It's just incredible sort of where we've come. There's a lot. I mean, look, there's a lot to be happy about. There's a lot, in many ways, the world has progressed in some really powerful ways, but I would argue that the world has regressed in a lot of ways as well. And I reached a time, I was always fascinated with the 24-hour news cycle. And when MSNBC and CNN and Fox grew,

I always found it really fascinating. And I appreciated very much the, and I'm all for, the free market news game, media game. But I have to say that, you know, sometime around 10 years ago, I just thought this is getting just crazy, really disappointing. And it's amazing the things I hear people say to each other, the things people write about each other. And there came a day where I thought, you know what, you got to go looking for yourself. You got to go out there and look for these stories on your own and work with other people to do that. When I started Plum TV, the idea was for-profit PBS. It was this idea that I bought the television station on Nantucket kind of on a whim, kind of for fun. I'd been buying media for Nantucket Nectars all those years, and we made our own radio ads. I did a ton of radio in those 10 years.

ads. I did a ton of radio in those 10 years. And we started doing these mini documentaries sort of right from the get-go. And I just loved it. I loved it. And it was amazing how, you know, any story I've done that I love, it's all about cooperation. It's all about some other person's willingness and desire to sort of make something with you. You just can't do it on your own. And so ultimately it was out of frustration where I thought, you know what, I want to bring people together and ask them to share in a vulnerable way things that are meaningful. And every word I just said is a little bit corny, vulnerable, meaningful, et cetera. But behind the corniness, it's a real thing. It's just when you discover those moments,

when you really get the sense that this person is on an edge and they're kind of bringing you the goods that just could mean so much to your life and so much to the lives of the people around you, I find it, it's like a form of high. I just think it's incredible. Yeah, as an antidote to the negativity and the onslaught of just information overload that has become the defining aspect of how we kind of sort of normally navigate our day. Like we're just

inundated with information. Now we call it content, you know, but what, what percentage of that information is actually bringing us value, uh, or making us more content or more fulfilled in our lives. And, and I think there's a, I think there's a need and a desperation. I would go so far as to say, um, that maybe most people aren't even consciously aware that they're starving for. And I think that's one reason why podcasting has now become a bigger thing. It's like, oh my God, they're actually like, they're not rushing through this thing.

They're gonna talk like real people. Like, I'm not used to that, you know? It's not 10 people shouting over each other on a 30 second, news piece on cable news that leaves people frazzled and agitated and yet always impulsively coming back for more. Yeah. So yours, I'm not just saying this, like yours is one of the podcasts I have the closest relationship with. And, you know, I think generally it's changing rapidly, as you just pointed out. But like, I think when podcasts first started to happen, people thought of them as like, you can download This American Life.

Now, I appreciate This American Life. I think it's great. But I think of it as a radio show. I mean, it's a show that has beats and timing and all these other things. Incredibly well-produced and researched. Yeah. Beautiful. I can't say enough good things about it. But the relationship you develop through a podcast like yours is, I don't even know what it is. What do you call that? Well, there's an intimacy to it. I think because it's rough around the edges and, you know, I'm not editing these things or, you know, it's like you get what you get. Like this is, you know, we're going to sit

down and we're going to talk. And at the end of this, people are going to feel like they know who you are. You know, they're getting a very real sense of who you are as a human being. That's very different from a radio interview or a television interview where it's just let's hit these beats and get the information extract the wisdom or whatever news item somebody's looking to get and i think that they're you know baked into that is this starvation for something that's real and authentic. And, you know, it's like, I hate using that word authentic. It's just, it gets, it's been devalued because it's been commodified so much, but there's truth in that.

Yeah. Well, you know, it's, so I mentioned, you know, we started these journeys, go find these stories, go find these people like Neil, like Neil Phillips, you know, who are- It's like, that guy needs to have a spotlight shined on him. Yeah. And, and like the thing he did, the thing he brings to your spirit, the thing he brings to my spirit is so powerful. Now I also have the advantage, which, you know,

this is the thing we just discovered. We discovered in the last couple of years is that when we were making, you know, we started making these stories, we do, you know, this is the thing we just discovered, we discovered in the last couple of years, is that when we were making, you know, we started making these stories. We do, you know, a TED-like kind of gathering, but then we started making films off and out of the talks. We do these strange sort of artistic collaborations that are, I would argue, beautiful of different kinds. And it's always sort of stories of meaning.

Again, a term that's not the greatest term in the world, but I don't know a better one. If you got one, I'd love to hear it. But one of the things that happened is we started sharing our stuff in homes. People would invite me to their house, say, hey, would you come over and play some stuff for us? So we started to do it.

And then one day I go over to someone's house, I package like 45 minutes of our stuff. And we just to watch, because she said, will you please do this? I said, sure, I'll do it. I didn't really want to do it, quite frankly. For like a group of people or just like this person who lives in this home? She said, I want to bring 20 people to my house and show them what you do. And so our thing is it's a combination of talks and films and art and music. So you kind of sit there and you have this

experience. And it's a little weird in a sense, but it's kind of like sitting in a room doing a two-minute meditation before a podcast. It feels a little awkward, but it's powerful. It's like a really cool and interesting thing that, again, I thought she just wanted me to show it to these people and maybe they'd come next fall to our gathering on Nantucket. And the thing ended, the 45-minute film essentially, which was a mix of stuff that I shared with them. And the first woman who spoke was crying. And she said,

I don't have meaningful conversations in my life anymore. And we talked for three and a half hours. So then we did it again. We remixed it, went to the same house with 20 different people, same result. And apropos of the podcast conversation, it was conversation. It's like this magical thing that animates stories, animates them in the sense that you can do things with them. Like what is forgiveness?

that you can do things with them. You know, like what is forgiveness? I could read in a book, but if you and I had a conversation about forgiveness, I can use it. I can take it somewhere else. I can experience it. It's like recovery, you know? That's beautiful.

And I think it, you know, it does speak to that thirst, that hunger for something real and something authentic. And I think that we have, you know, like the podcasting and the work that you're doing is a reaffirmation and a reemergence of this lost art of conversation that's so baked into our DNA as something that we need and desire

in order to be fulfilled. And as we navigate the torrential waters of social media, we feel like we're more connected than ever, but everything is at an arm's length and everything is digitized and everything is immediate and temporal and sort of short lasting. Yeah. You know, it's like this fuse that ignites

and then it's gone. How often, like this, you know, it's like, this is like the 350th conversation that I've had on this podcast. It's like, I get to have these amazing experiences. Like if we just went out to lunch, like, hey, I'm in town, come and meet me. We'd have lunch.

It would be cool. Maybe we talk for an hour. It would be awesome. But the formality of this structure allows us to go deeper in a way that we wouldn't ordinarily. And I guarantee you when this is concluded, like we're going to feel connected in a way that you cannot fabricate any other way. And I think that that is why people are responding to the work that you're doing because we have that deep need for that connection. Well, and you know, the other part of it too. So yesterday I went to a, you know, a gathering for the camp my kids go to. And I sat

next to a teacher at their school who coincidentally was just made the something, a senior guy at their camp. I don't know what the position is called. Guy named Matt Dandola. And turns out we're both vegans. So he says, you know, do you have any gurus? Says it to me. And I said, yeah, do you? And he said, yeah. And I said, who?

And he said, Rich Roll. And I said, this is yesterday. And I said, really? And I said, you know, I'm going to see him tomorrow. And he said, yeah, me and five other teachers at the school listen every week, and then we talk about it. Now, he and I talked about it for about 45 minutes. It was a real conversation. We're at like a social event, middle of the day on a Sunday. And the thing I was going to say is, because I think there's another really important piece of this, is that you change. So yeah, we will feel connected, but I will change. I will become a different person. And my ability to ignite,

a couple of weeks ago, my family, my brother, my two sisters, my mom and my dad, we met in D.C. right after the funeral. What I will tell you is that we have never met as a group probably in our lives. Never. Altogether. Altogether with no spouses, just us, because there were some issues or some family issues we wanted to work out. All together with no spouses, just us, because there were some issues or some family issues we wanted to work out. And hour and 15 minutes, 20 years of some anxieties, a little bit of tensions, unknowns, boom. Like, boom, just cleared up.

Totally different scenario. My sister in particular, one of my sisters in particular, who's very anxious about a bunch of stuff going on in the family, such a sense of relief. So yeah, I mean, I think that the connection is a real thing, but change, I mean, it's just incredible. So what do you attribute that transformation to? Is it because you have a toolbox with what you've learned that you're able to communicate in a different way where you can transcend some of these issues that historically have created issues? I don't know to what degree I take any credit for it. I was just witness to it in this case. But what I will say is, I mean, I kind of helped champion in it,

but it was really my brother, my older brother, and he really led it. I was just there to kind of listen and then throw in where I want to throw in. I would say there was a moment early on in the conversation where I was feeling the tension. I said, look, I just want you guys to know where I'm coming from in this.

And that is that I love you guys. And I want to find an answer here. I don't have one that I know to be the right one. I probably have my own sort of beliefs, but in the end, I just want everyone to be happier and closer. I wouldn't have said that. The old me would have had an agenda

and I would have told everyone how brilliantly this thing could be solved. So there are those kinds of things that I feel like I'm a different person. But that's recovery, right? I mean, that's like... Yeah, it's recovery. And I think it's just the messages of all these people that you've had the privilege of encountering over the years as a result of Nantucket project and the stuff that you do, that's all kind of just percolating in your unconscious mind. You know, people ask me all the time, like, well, you have all these people and they come and they tell you all these

ways of living and all of that. Like, how do you, how do you codify that? Like, do you make lists and then make decisions about what I'm like? No, it just just, it's just, it's just there. It's like this, you know, floating thing in my, that I'm not even consciously aware of that I know profoundly impacts how I behave and has improved how I, how I, how I live. But I couldn't tell you, oh, it was because of this person or that thing. Yeah. So, so this, this, these gatherings that we do, we call it the neighborhood project and we do it in rooms all over the country. And I was in Oakland a couple of weeks ago and it's called the Dunmire project.

They're all called a different project. So everyone is named after the town or whatever? Or the street or whatever they want. And I sat down and it was one of the participants. It was one of the women who is a member of that group. And she started talking and, you know, and it was meant to be kind of an informational conversation. I wanted to kind of learn how their room was functioning and trying to get educated on what's working and what isn't. trying to get educated on what's working and what isn't. And she went into a story about sexual abuse. And suffice it to say, I was hanging on every word she said. And it was about sort of abuse and forgiveness, in this case, her grandfather. And one of our lines is, you never know who you're sitting next to. And she talked about how being part of her group has opened her up, authenticity, vulnerability, again, some of the terms. And when I saw what was happening, sort of being with this woman,

I thought, because you mentioned, I'm bringing this up because you mentioned some of the interesting people that I've met. Like you, I've met a lot of really interesting people. This woman wasn't meant to be one of those people. This was just meant to be like a civilian or whatever term you want to use. And it turns out they're like, there are no civilians. or whatever term you want to use. And it turns out they're like, there are no civilians. You know, it's like you put someone in the right frame or they put you in the right frame.

It's incredible sort of what comes out. I, you know, and I think in the end, the good news is, you know, like acceptance. How do you find acceptance? How do you practice acceptance? Well, one of the gifts is just fatigue. You've had enough. You know, you've had a frickin' enough.

Yeah. And in this case, I think we've had enough. I think social media is just- How much do you want to suffer? Yeah. At some point, you're like, I gotta let this go. Yeah. So what is your relationship with social media then?

Well, I have one. I'm a voyeur, you know, I watch. I can't believe it. Like I cannot believe how much people will write political stuff, for example. And I think like, you know, who's the God who pushes the stone up the hill? I'm gonna get crucified for not having that

on the tip of my tongue right now. Whoever that is. Yeah, I feel like an idiot because I can't think of who that is right now. But isn't it like that? I mean, have you ever seen a political battle with a victorious outcome on social media? And yet people do it all day long.

And I watch and I think like, wow, this is so interesting. It's so interesting. You know, one of the things I think about is I go back to us as kids and I think, you know, Neil got to make all the calls because Neil was like the leader. I mean, I'm making this up, but generally speaking, you know, to have that kind of a voice, it didn't exist.

And I wonder like, is this pent up frustration from? I think a lot of it is. I think, you know, look, it's a very different time. We grew up in Washington, D.C. Like, we're surrounded by politicians, but there was a civility. Yeah. There was an ability to reach across the aisle

and have, you know, grown up conversations with people to reach consensus. There was not the divisiveness that we're seeing now. And I think it speaks to, you know, this undercurrent of frustration and resentment and anger as, you know, the haves and the have-nots start to split and become, you know, further separated. And that's a huge problem

that I see only becoming more exacerbated. And so what happens? We end up in our silos. And I think when you go online, like I always have this internal debate. I have strong opinions on certain political issues. And as somebody who has a platform, like what is my responsibility to talk about this? And I see other people doing it. And I have this sort of twofold reaction to that. Like one is, well, if they're doing it, then I should too. And then the second thought is, well, I don't have to because they're doing it. And what do I gain or what is gained in the macro for me chiming in on a conversation

that could potentially, you know, make my thoughts known in a public forum, but also create divisiveness because I'm well aware that it's, it doesn't, it doesn't like stating your opinion on a hot button issue. It doesn't necessarily change hearts and minds. Yeah. You know, we've done a lot of research into the impact of time spent in the digital

world and, and compared it to time spent in conversation. Right. And I won't bore you with it, but the bottom line is more time spent in the digital world, the more irritable you are, the more depressed you are, the more divided you are. People who spend more time in conversation,

they're happier, they're closer, they're just all these different things. Appreciation, love, you can only experience those things in real life. You know, real life conversation, smell matters, look matters, tone matters, everything matters. And like the opportunity for nuance in the digital world is just so de minimis. Now, I respect the fact that, you know, people who feel things strongly and they want to share a voice that they should. I mean, you know, they should, or they and they wanna share a voice that they should.

I mean, you know, they should. Or they certainly should be able to. I mean, who am I to sort of make a call on that? But what I will say, I remember when you and I connected around Christmas this year, I was doing one of, I do these crazy train trips. You know, I do these-

Yeah, I wanna hear about this. Like, this is like a tradition with you every year. Yeah. Take a train cross country by yourself. Yeah, it's, you know, I want to hear about this. This is like a tradition with you every year to take a train cross-country by yourself. Yeah. I've gone across the north. I've gone across the middle of the country. I've gone across the south.

I was about to go from L.A. to New Orleans when you and I were connecting. And then I got in a car and I drove up and I was in Selma and Montgomery and different places in Louisiana. And I went to Nashville and Virginia. And I talked to people. I just like to talk to people. And it's just, it's staggering the degree to which you find. I don't even like the word common ground. It's just we're humans and we connect.

And in groups too, like we'll bring groups together. We brought together a group in Nashville and we'll do these impromptu like we'll bring groups together. We brought together a group in Nashville and we'll do these impromptu things on the street. We did it in New Orleans. And humans, it's like that, have you seen that Heineken commercial where they bring these oddball couples together and let them talk? And it's like that time after time after time. So what I would say is there's a huge lie in the world right now, and that is that we all hate each other. Because it's true that in social media, we hate each other. If you put those exact same people together in real life, they don't hate each other. It's a very different thing. Which to me is, that's called reality, right? Like you're talking about people together

connecting. What's the outcome? I can promise you that you'll get a huge hit rate of success. Success being defined by some kind of a emotional connection to each other and a respect for each other. And I don't care sort of what their different politics might be, et cetera. I've seen it too many times. I just know what I'm saying is true. So does that leave you optimistic for the future? I mean, somewhat. I do believe that, I mean, if you watch What the Health, like I did last night, it's hard to be optimistic, but it is also the case that pendulums are real.

Yeah. They're not on the good side of the political world at the moment. But nonetheless, the donations they're getting and the support they're getting and the rally that's happening. I'm not taking a side. And it sounds like I'm taking a side because I'm really not. But I do think in struggle, it's often where you find solutions, right? How do you speak to your kids about the use of the mobile device? It's a battle I just lose, you know? My wife's really good at it.

I mean, she's really good at sort of just turning them off. But I'm a wimp and I'm as addicted as anybody else. I'm no like super good guy on this. Having said that, I don't let myself get upset. And as I mentioned, you have stopped watching TV, but like you, I watch Netflix and things like that. I just, I stopped watching the news. Right.

You know, I used to be a big news person and I'll never forget like on the cover of the New York Times, Trump was about to give the State of the Union and it said Trump to give State of the Union amidst turmoil and chaos. And I'd just gotten back from my trip on the train and the drive, and I thought, wow, I just went across the whole country. I don't recall seeing either turmoil or chaos the whole way. And I was

in like El Paso and San Antonio and all these different cities. I'm being tongue-in-cheek. I get it. I know what they were saying, but in the real world on the day-to-day in the street, like supermarkets were filled with food and the traffic seemed to be flowing. And I thought chaos, it's kind of in the media world where everyone's yelling and screaming at each other. Yeah, I think that's very true. So when you show up in a place like Selma,

do you have, there's like a neighborhood project sort of situation there, or do you just walk the streets and engage people? A little bit of both. I mean, there's a lot of the latter, a lot of the latter where you just start talking to people. You know, in some ways it's like finding a center. It's like a truth finding thing.

And it just makes me feel like a different person. You know, it's, I was down at the Island School, which is a school in the Bahamas. Beautiful place, beautiful place. And I mean, the spirit of it is just astounding and what these guys have built down there. And I was there for like 20 minutes and I felt so alive and so optimistic, you know? And I'm selling you this story because that'll carry me for weeks. So these trips carry me for, you know,

they really motivate me and they make me really optimistic and they connect me to, I don't know, who we are and who we can be and more stories to tell. When you reached out to me at Christmas time or when we were going back and forth, you said, I'm gonna do this train thing. I do it every year. And it's my way of really just taking a beat

to get really clear and go deep on what it is that I wanna express in my life. Like it's a, it's a major timeout that you have to create boundaries around. So I think that's really cool. It's something that, you know, most people don't think about. I certainly haven't done anything like that. I've done different versions of that, but I think that there's, you know, to actually get on a train, you know, in a very tactile and symbolic way, like you're saying like, okay, this is, I'm going to go, literally going on this journey to, you know, connect with myself in a new and different way. So how many years have you been doing that? Well, so I don't know if you know this, but I drove across country between junior and senior year.

Do you remember this? In high school. And I've driven back and forth nine times. I've done it on the motorcycle as well. I'm a motorcycle person. And then I started doing the train. I used to take my motorcycle to Florida. I would take the auto train down and that's when I kind of got the bug. So it's probably been like six years that I've done that now. And I still, I'll do it randomly. I mean, I've done it the West Coast.

Like I was here a couple months ago and I took it. I had to go to Santa Fe, New Mexico. I took it to Santa Fe. So I'll take it on these random legs as well. I like a few weeks ago, I had to go to New Orleans. I was in Miami. So I flew to Atlanta. I got on the train.

And then, you know, it's about a 12-hour train ride from there. And I took the train to New Orleans. So I'm kind of doing it all the time. Right. And, you know, look, you're going to meet people on the train are nice, period. Like it's just a different flow. Like no security, you know, no one's in a hurry. Taking Southwest from LA to Vegas or something.

And are you, do you have like a, are you like journaling or like, is there like a methodology to how you kind of approach these excursions? Yeah, to a certain extent. So I do, this is my daily. So I do this, this is my notebook and I'll do like, you know, this is today, gratitude, thoughts. You know, I'll do that every day.

And the nice thing about this, you know, there's one page for every day. Right. So I got to fill up every page or something's wrong. And if I miss a day, I'll do two. But I do a variety of things and I don't stick to it. I mean, other than things like this and I have some books I read every day.

No, it's random. Look out the window, shoot. I like to shoot film and I'll get on the computer and work too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I've never attended a Nantucket Project event, but I've seen plenty of the videos. And the obvious comparison is always going to be TED because TED is sort of the standard bearer for these sorts of events.

But I feel like there's a conscious intention in what you do with Nantucket Project to make it more intimate. All the speakers are in the center. It's sort of a theater in the round kind of setup. There's only like what, like 600 people that attend. It's not this massive thing. And so there's a, and it seems like there's a very collegial kind of community oriented sensibility about the whole thing that is fostering people to connect in a way

that maybe can't occur at an event as large as something like TED. Yeah. Is that accurate? You know, yeah, I would say so. I mean, so I went to the first Aspen Ideas Festival, which was, I think, 03. I had a designer at Nantucket Nectars when I was doing Nantucket Nectars and a designer told me about Ted and I just became like a Ted junkie early nineties. I said, go sign us up, let's go. And then he brought me the bill and I was like, we are not going. I had no idea it costs that much money. But it's always something that's, you know, it's always fascinated me. I love to sit and have people kind of deliver, I don't know, curiosity and meaning. And there's pressure, you know, there's pressure.

There's a little bit of energy to a live thing. But like anything else, you know, it's, I wanted something a little bit different. You know, I was very hungry for something that was a little bit, come at it from a different angle than the other guys do. And I'm trying to be respectful of these other organizations because I am respectful. I think what they do is great. I love, and my team, we all love, you know, like that live wire

that is breathing in real time, like right in front of you. And in that regard, the one thing I say about us, here's what I say. The other guys know, and we don't. Like, we don't know. You know, we want to really come at it from a point of view of not knowing and let people share and then give them time to talk too. We do it, as you said, we do it in the round for a reason. If you sit there and you know, you're sitting there and you're watching this person deliver or it's a film or it's art or it's music. And then across from you, you can see all these faces

and you know, it's cool. It's cool the way that. It feels interactive. I mean, who was it? Was it Lawrence Lessig where you had an artist on stage who was like drawing, you know, sort of creating a visual representation of this amazing talk that he was giving.

So it sort of invites the attendees in to it in a different way, Yeah. I feel like. How did you, like, from sort of inception of this idea to like what it is today? I mean, you have like these incredible people that come and speak, like, how did you like manifest that? It's crazy. You know, here's the thing, and you know this,

it's all just hard work. We will make the 36th phone call. And if we have to make the 37th, we'll make the 37th. It's been hard, hard work, just work, work, work. And that's really the answer. I mean, there have been times, people still ask me, I'll be at the Nantucket Project and people will say, what else are you doing these days, Tom? And I'm just like, why are you asking?

It's only like one week of the year. I mean, come on, right? Right, right. But I, you know, there came a time a few years ago where I said to myself, this is all I'm going to do. I'm just going to do this. I'm going to work every day, all day to get there. And that's what our team does. You know, they just work really hard. And, you know, look, words. We've been talking about words. I say the words to people. You know, we say, we want you to give the talk your life. We want you

to tell the story that only you know. We want you to be right there and to give this vulnerable, authentic talk. And most people roll their eyes, which I would too. I'd think, who is this idiot? Like, what are you talking about? You know, I've heard all this stuff before. But the good news is, you know, it's eight years. People can see it now and they can react to it. And it's starting to gather a life, you know, it's starting to gather life. And I think people are starting to see how and why what a book is. A book could be just about anything, right? Just imagine all the different kinds of books you could read. Well, so can a gathering. And a gathering can be anything. It could be any kind of thing.

It's interesting. I remember when we were in the juice business, everyone knows how to make radio ads. Everyone will tell you how to make your radio ads. You should do this. You should do that. Why didn't you do this? Do more of that. And in my business, it's like everyone knows who to book.

And I always think, would you ever, you know, I don't care who the writer is. Would you go up and say, write this now? Like, you wouldn't do that. But I understand it. I'm not complaining. Yeah. It's sort of like understanding the rules and then knowing where to diverge from them. If you follow the booker's advice, then your event's going to be like every other event, right? And if you follow the radio ad guy, your ad's going to be like every other ad. And then that may work on a certain level, but it's never going to allow you to kind of transcend and break the mold to do something new and interesting. Yeah.

You had said something, I listened to the first episode of your podcast, and you were talking about, look, when you make juice, this is a consumer product. They take it and they consume it, and that's the end of that. And now your product is an idea, right? And so somebody consumes it, but then they share it. And there's a transformative aspect of that that lives and breathes, you know, potentially forever as a result of that that lives in breeze you know potentially forever as a result of that and how you think about um how you produce and share those two very different types of products yeah yeah i mean that that story i was telling you about the the woman i met in Oakland, every person takes stories to different places. And when you see it in groups, because now we have all these groups that are, you know, they're growing all over the country now,

they make their own thing out of it. It has nothing to do with us after. I mean, literally, you go and you watch and you hear and you see, and you say, my God, they're making it into anything they want to make it into, which is great. And in that regard, I was always someone who believed like there's a mountaintop over there and I got to get to it. And as I'm getting older, I'm realizing, nah, there's not one. You just keep going. Right. Yeah. Yeah, because I mean, when I want to get into the definitive divinity school stuff in a minute, but just on that thought, I think a lot of people would think in the wake of selling Nantucket Nectar is like, hey, man, like, I'm good now. Like, you don't you don't really have to do anything.

You know, I would imagine there had to have been at least some period of time in which you're like, okay, I'm going to chill, right? But at some point you realize like, well, you know, I got to do something with my life, right? And you make this decision to kind of invest yourself in media. At that time, I mean, what was that period like for you? I would imagine it would probably be relatively disorienting. Yeah. like for you? I would imagine it would probably be relatively disorienting. Yeah. Well, I mean, you know, when I go back to Plum and the transition I made coming out of Juice, that was, you know, it's kind of like when the, this is ridiculous what I'm about to say,

but for me personally, what I'm about to say is true. When the wall came down and the Soviet Union disappeared, like the power dynamics changed so drastically that the world's never been the same since, you know? And in my own little self, when we sold Nantucket Nectars, the power dynamic just totally changed. I mean, my job every day was to survive and thrive, survive and thrive, survive and thrive. And if you remember, like right towards the end of Nantucket Nectars,

Adwala had those deaths. You remember that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I almost took that whole company down. I know. And I see those guys to this day. But I tell the story because people would say like,

when was the time where you realized you made it? Never, not one time. Like never, ever did I feel like we were in a position where everything's okay. So you just fight- Even after the sale? Well, so you fight like a dog. And then even after the sale, it took like, I don't know, six months or a year, you think, oh my God, it's not in my hands anymore. Like somebody else has taken care of this. But there was a massive vacuum that was left in me and it was the hardest time of my life. Because suddenly you were confronted with yourself or what about that? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think I, you know, I was always willing to work hard. Tom First,

my co-founder at Nantucket Nectars and the team, they were just an incredible team. We worked really hard. And I don't know, I worked and let me just say, I worked 95% of the time and then I partied the other 5% of the time. time. And then I partied the other 5% of the time. So there was never, I had no balance. I didn't know who I was. I was just a guy on a mission all day, every single day. And in a way, I probably had some kind of arrested development in a variety of ways. And the other thing that happened is, you know, this was around 2000 when, you know, everyone wanted to give you money for something. And they started to worship entrepreneurs. That's the other thing. Like that was not- That was the very beginning of that. Yeah, and people would invite us to everything and praise us and write about us.

We were on Oprah and the Today Show and all these things. And a lot of that is just false. I mean, there's really kind of nothing to that. But there's so many people who think, if I could just do that, like, that would be it. Yeah. So what is the message that you would impart to that person? You know what the bummer is?

I think they're going to crash into their wall, too. You know, I wish I could say that wasn't true. No one gets out of life alive. Yeah. And, you know, the imbalances are coming back. They're coming. You know, you're're gonna face up to them at some point, and I faced up to them.

I started to believe, I'll never forget when I was raising money, I'd go to meetings, I say, you know, I'm trying to raise 4 million. I say, what would you do with eight? Could you do something with 20? I mean, like that kind of thing. When you hear that, you just, I know in my case- I'm much more interested in 20 than two.

Well, and that can screw with your ego. And I got to tell you, like the innocence with which we went about Nanotonic Nectars, it was real. Like it was real, real. And I don't think to this day I'm a business person. It's not what I am at my heart. I'm like a product person or an idea person. I just love that. And if I'm not matching those two things, forget it.

Don't put me in charge, you know? And I didn't know that then. You know, I think you look at other business people and you say, oh, I could be one of those. I could do that. And you don't even realize what it is you did. Like I, being a business person wasn't my thing. Being a juice guy, whatever that meant, but it meant something. That's what I was. It's like Doug Evans. Yeah.

You know, a mutual friend, Doug Evans. You know, he's a juice guy, you know, and he's an idea guy and he's a product guy. And a business guy, I guess, but like probably that isn't at the top of that list. Right. You know. Well, and I think in the end, I am a person, there's a lot of, I guess, but like probably that isn't at the top of that list, you know? Well, and I think in the end, I am a person, there's a lot of people like me,

there's nothing unique about me, who can get really excited about making something that doesn't exist for me and the people I'm with and can organize something around it that is valuable. and can organize something around it that is valuable. But, you know, money, for example, like I never thought I'd get wealthy in the juice business. I just never, honestly, I mean, later I did. I'll never forget, I was driving down the road. I had one of those old flip phones, phone rings, guys on the phone.

Hey, Tom, I wanna talk to you about buying your company. And I said, ah, we're not for sale. We don't want to sell the company. He goes, you don't want to even hear the number? And I said, okay, you want to say a number? Say a number. And he said a number. And it floored me.

I mean, it was 30 times more than I thought, literally. Like I had no idea. I had no idea. And I just thought, oh, my God. Everything's for sale for the right number. Well, it did change my view of sort of what these things were. I just didn't know. I thought the way to make money in life

is to have a big salary. Right. And we were making like $35,000 a year each. So I don't know. I just thought this- That's so funny. Yeah. So now when you go to the store

or you go to Chipotle or whatever, and you see the Nantucket Nectars in the, in the refrigerated case, like what is your emotional response to that? It's pretty zero. Is it? I'm very. It still says Tom and Tom on the back,

doesn't it? It still has a little story about you guys and all that. I feel very disconnected from it. You know, it's, we had a thing and, and you know, it's all fine.

I don't get emotional about it, but we had a thing called and it's all fine. I don't get emotional about it, but we had a thing called the Quality Juice Evolution Solution, which meant we would make any flavor better when we could. I could bore you with examples, but 100% lemon juice, not from concentrate, on and on, different apples. And they don't do that. And I just, it's okay. you don't have to do that, but it's just so different that I don't even connect with it. Right, once you sell,

it becomes an entirely different thing. Every now and again, my kids will bring it up. Like, hey dad, isn't that your juice? And I'm like, oh yeah. Yeah, do you know Jimmy from Evolution? Evolution Juice? No, no. Oh, he's a great guy. That's the one that Starbucks, right?

Starbucks bought it. And he's actually having a romance with them. Like, cause they, they built a huge facility for him and they've maintained, you know, he's like Doug, he's insane about quality and they've, they've been able to kind of live up to that promise. So he's super happy, but his first juice company, I think, I hope I'm not getting this wrong, but I think it was Naked. And then they sold that and it was not.

Like it just, the quality, everything changed. And he had, he kind of had like an existential crisis in the wake of that. You know, in that regard, Doug Evans, like crushed it from a quality perspective. I mean, what he was doing, putting those vegetables, fruits and vegetables together in those packs, that's hard. Like this is hard, hard, hard stuff.

I mean, talk about pushing a rock up a hill. Like what he, you know, look, he's our friend. I love Doug. We were talking about this before the podcast and it was painful to see what happened to him because his heart is so huge and his vision was so gigantic. And he got crushed by virtue of never being able to control the narrative around Juicero, being a victim of whatever this journalist or that journalist decided to say. And from the get-go, from the very first New York Times article, there was a decision that was made in the kind of general consciousness that this was going to be emblematic of Silicon

Valley excess. And from day one, they never were able to recover from that because they couldn't figure out how to tell the story that you and I both know, which is that it was about the infrastructure and the logistical systems that they were setting up that was going to revolutionize how we were getting food farm to table. Yeah. It wasn't just an expensive machine. It was so much more than that. But they couldn't really translate that story in a meaningful way. And the whole thing just cratered and it breaks my heart. And I talk to Doug all the time.

I know you talk to him and he's a survivor and he's gonna end up doing something amazing in the future. But to see him crushed by that system was difficult. It was hard. I always say the greatest juice company ever will be the people who invent the teleporter. Because if you really want good juice, you are in the field where the stuff is picked and you squeeze it right in front of yourself and you consume it. And, you know, with no pasteurization and no other sort of forms of preservatives. And, you know, with no pasteurization and no other sort of forms of preservatives.

And if you wind your way back from that, this is a major, major challenge. And I got nothing against it, but all the people who use HPP, I, you know, I don't drink it. I got nothing against it. You know, Nantucket Nectars uses like a regular, you know, UHT or different kinds of pasteurization. But fresh is fresh and fresh is the best. And fresh is so hard. And what Doug was doing, closest thing in the world to it. And it wasn't about that juicer, that machine. It was about those packs.

Those packs were really hard to make and they were doing it. And- And they had prototypes for a totally compostable pack. And they had a prototype for a new machine that would press twice as much juice, twice as fast at half the cost of the original machine. So it was just a, they had, it was a time, it was like they ran out of time

because scale can deliver the price point that the market would have celebrated rather than. Yeah. It's, it's kind of the only thing, I mean, like any other innovation or almost any other innovation, it's really expensive in the beginning. It's hard to make it at the right margin, but they were on their way. And, you know, so now you're left with your juicer at home. But when you raise $250 million or whatever they rate, you know, it's a different, are at home. But when you raise $250 million or whatever they rate, they're playing in a different ball field. Completely. Yeah. And there's a lot of good reasons for it, but it is sort of a shame. And I really admire Doug's willingness to do this. And all these guys, all these people who

are trying to make these fresh, again, that goodwara thing. When people die, because that's what happens when you're playing with fresh, it's hard. You know, you got to work like hell to figure out the way to do the teleporter, to get the fruit or the vegetable fresh, squeezed right to you. And, you know, my wife, bless her, she does it in the machine. And she cleans up and she does all the stuff. I don't have the patience for it.

I just can't do it. Yeah, it's tough, man. I know. But it is interesting that like Nantucket Nectars was the first wave, like the first introduction of like, hey, you know, you can have something a little bit different than you're used to. That's a little bit healthier.

It has these different flavors. And now to see what has transpired in the 20 years since then with all these new iterations on healthy juice. It's like the market, like, you know, at the time, even in the success of Nantucket Nectars, I remember thinking like, well, how many juice companies can there be, right? Like, where is this going to end? Like this, there's got to be market saturation and clearly not because look what has happened. It's gone way past us, way past us. It's not even close. It's amazing.

It really is amazing. I mean, even, you know, again, back to the film I saw last night or all the stuff, you know, Kip Esselstyn and all these people I've been studying a lot through, you know, through you. You know, in the early days of Nantucket Nectars, where do you sell it? You sell it to health food stores, which means they don't pay their bills very well. The store is going to be a little messy and poorly managed. Like that was, that's the nature of it. These are like hippies and a dream. And now hippies and a dream, like Amazon just bought it from Whole Foods and it's just a whole different world. And it's come a long, long way. And, you know, people like you

who are doing, I don't think there was such a thing as, when did ultra marathons or ultra triathlons, when did that start? They've been around, but it's sort of been a fringe marginal thing. And now you see like, oh, these people are running 50 Ks and 50 milers and 100 milers, like in a way that, like when I first heard of it, I was like, what?

Like you didn't, nobody talked about this, but there was always been that subculture, but analogous to kind of the, you of the marginalized hippie lifestyle, I suppose. Well, let's get back to storytelling a little bit. I remember that you – we had a little communication. It must have been 2008 maybe, and you reached out to me, and we were connecting on a number of things. And you're like, oh, hey, like I'm working I'm working on this TV show thing. And it's, it's with these brothers. And, uh, I think you might, I think you might like these guys. They're pretty cool. Like here, watch this little video that this guy,

Casey made. And you sent me one of his early videos, which was about running. I forget what it's called. Like, you know, it goes out and runs. And that was my very first introduction to Casey Neistat. And you ended up becoming, you produced not only their TV show, the Neistat Brothers for HBO, but also you produced Daddy Long Legs also, which was with Casey and the Safdie brothers, right? Who have recently blown up.

What's that movie with the vampire guy that just came out this year? I haven't seen it. Big Time. Big Time, I think that's right. I haven't seen it. Big time. Big time, I think that's right. Is that what it's called? I haven't seen it yet, but a lot of people are talking about that movie. It's a really good movie.

Like these guys are the next thing, like the next Tarantino or whatever. So that's an interesting move in and of itself to go from juice to like, okay, I'm getting into movies and TV. So how did you connect with like the Safdie brothers and Casey? You know, it goes back to a lot of the stuff

we've been talking about here. I have a, I love spirited people. Like spirited people on missions is exciting to me. It's just an exciting thing to me. And I always, when I'm around them, I feel it. Doug Evans, you, Casey and Van Nystad, the Safdie brothers you mentioned, a bunch of others over the years,

you run into these people who are on these missions. And when they're on those missions, you can tell they're on these missions. They're just like these, Casey and Van made ads for us way back when. For Nantucket Nectars. No, no, for Plum TV. Oh, okay. And I just thought, wow, look at these two guys.

And so I brought them in my office and I said, I want to make a movie with you. And they, you know, they said like, about what? And I said, I don't know. I just, you guys have spirit. Like, I want to do something here. And they said, all right, well, let us get something? And I said, I don't know. I just, you guys have spirit. Like, I wanna do something here. And they said, all right, well, let us get something together. I said, okay.

So they left and then they came back, I don't know, a week later and they said, how do you feel about a TV series? And we shook hands like within 20 minutes, they had to give, they had to turn in a new episode every six weeks for a year. And I said, all the only thing I ask is, this is the only thing you do for the next year

and that we don't try to sell it until we're done. Like make eight, because I know you guys are, you know, crazy, crazy in all the best ways. And we did. And it was, all I can think is that when I met those two guys, I mean, artistically, they're really great, but their spirit is out of this world.

And I thought that spirit is going somewhere and I wanna work with them to figure out what it is. And so we did, and it was a great journey. We took the, I had a friend at HBO and I said, I gotta show you something. I know you're gonna like this. And she watched it and I said, I gotta show you something. I know you're gonna like this. And she watched it and she said, you're right, come in. I said, okay.

So we went in and we walked out and within an hour, they said, we want the whole thing. Right. And it was that fast. It's crazy. And what's interesting about it, if you go back and watch it, it's the fidelity. Like you could, it's, you know, what Casey does now is certainly refined

in terms of technique, but it's the same thing. It's like he was vlogging basically, you know, in that show and doing it, you know, years before anybody else was. It's like, you know, and now to see his trajectory, I mean, it's insane. Just passed like 9 million subscribers on YouTube. I mean, he's arguably one of the most influential people

of our generation, certainly in terms of youth culture. I know. It's quite something. And it's that spirit, you know, it's like he's a very focused, driven and intentional about what he does in a way that I think you only know when you're around and when the camera's off and you could see like, there's no mistakes.

Like he knows exactly what he's doing. Yeah, well, and he's gonna die for his country. I mean, he's going for it. And that then there's just no doubt about it. And his courage, his creative courage is outrageous. It's outrageous. I mean, have you seen the Laird Hamilton documentary? No, I haven't seen it yet.

A bunch of people have told me it's good. You gotta watch that because it doesn't make sense, the choices. Like the choices don't make sense. There is no box you put this stuff in. And that's what- There's no model. There is no box you put this stuff in. And that's what Casey- There's no model. There's no like, if you wanna do this,

this is the road that you follow. They're creating their own road. There's no road. It makes no business sense. It just doesn't make sense. I mean, you've really got to- Conviction and vision and courage. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. And that's, you know, one of my sons just loves Casey stuff. And he's, you know, he has some element of that in him. He just thinks about it all day and he just so believes in it. I have to say, it's got great influence as far as I'm concerned. Like, keep at it. Like, do your thing.

It's, I think about Casey all the time in my own career. I mean, there's a lot of times, I'm sure you've experienced this, you don't know where this is going, you know? And those things where you just do it and you hope and you correct and you do it again and you do it because you feel it. You know, you feel that thing where you know, like, oh, there's something special going on here. That's the thing about Laird Hamilton. I mean, some of the choices that he was making, as an example, he just didn't like competitions because they are boring, right?

No, his competition is with himself. It doesn't have anything to do with anybody else. And here it turns into like this, I don't know, is it a movement? I don't know what it is. I'm talking about Laird. I mean, it's like its own sport. It's its own thing.

Is it sport? Is it art? Is it just a manifestation of one person's life and passion? But there is, it takes an incredible amount of courage to step outside that box when there's money to be made and fame to be had by doing it the way your predecessors have done it. So that bliss thing, the Joseph Campbell thing, were we talking about since we sat down? You know, one of the, like slow-mo.

You turned me on to slow-mo. Right, slow-mo's the best. And the beauty of that whole thing is when he says, the guy in the hospital says, do what you want. And the critical thing in that whole equation is you got to know what that is. You know, when it's 2001 and I've sold Nantucket Nectars, I had no idea what that was. So you tell me to do what I want, it's going to be destructive. It was destructive. I know what that's like. Yeah. I know what that was. So you tell me to do what I want, it's gonna be destructive. It was destructive. I know what that's like. I know what that's like.

But then you have this place where, you know, you go into, they just, you know, in the hero's journey, you go into the woods and when you go into the woods, you're going into a woods where there's no path, no path, no path. And can you be guided by your bliss? So you gotta know what it is

and you gotta have the courage to go. And in order to know what it is, you have to be a fully integrated human being. Otherwise, you're gonna be victim to your baser desires. Yeah. Or you're gonna be chasing the wrong thing, thinking it's the goal that you aspire to when in fact it isn't.

That's what Casey does. Yeah, but he knows who he is. Like he's very connected to what that is and he's fearless in his pursuit of that. And I think that that's extremely rare, but when you are exposed to it, it's infectious. And so as somebody who's around a lot of amazing people, you can't help by nothing other than osmosis

to absorb some of that and allow it to, you know, fuel your own courage, I think. Yeah. Well, and I think those, you know, there's a couple of times over the last, say, 10 years where two times in particular, people offered me jobs. And I've never really had a job where I worked for someone else. Well, I did when I was a kid, but, you know, in each case I said, well, how much will I get paid? And in both cases, I thought, whoa, I just, you know, I've never made that kind of salary in my life. And especially when it wasn't me coming up with the money, you know, like you're going to pay me and I don't have to worry about where you're gonna get that money from.

And in both cases, I had like a 24 hour period where I thought, I'm gonna do this. This is great. Like, this is perfect. I don't have to worry about this. I don't have to worry about that. I'll have some money. And thank God.

I mean, I think about people like Casey and I think, I can't do that. I cannot do that. But I'm, you know But I go on that roller coaster and I get afraid and tempted and all these different things. That's why Salomo, when he does what he wants,

he actually knows. And it's a little, it's out there. Well, and the amazing thing about that is that it's so simple. Like when he really thought about like what he wanted to do, the dude just wanted to rollerblade and that's it. And I think as human beings, we want to complicate it. Like, well, I want this, but I kind of want that too. And maybe if I do that, I can do that. And, you know, one of the reasons I love slow-mo and I feel so connected

to him is because I had a very similar impulse. When I was having this like existential crisis, I was like, what makes me happy? Like, what do I want to do? And, you know, I was thinking like career, like how am I going to get out of being a lawyer? Like I just felt like I was in prison. And I was like, I just like, you know, I like what it feels like when I jump in a swimming pool. You know, I like how I feel when I'm on that trail at dawn and it's kind of chilly and the sun pops up over the ridge and I can feel it on my back and all I can hear is my breath. That's what I love. And so I just started doing that because I wanted to connect with that part of myself that I felt I had ignored and had lost. It's not a business plan.

It's not a life plan, but it is part and parcel of that movement towards becoming more fully integrated. How conscious was that kind of moment or choice? And did it involve something like, I'm gonna do thised and I'm so despondent over these choices that I've made about my life and how I invest my time. And I can't do it anymore. And I don't know what the exit strategy is, but I know that my only path forward is to start engaging with these impulses that I have about how I want to spend my time. that I have about how I wanna spend my time. So your commitment or decision or whatever you wanna call it to let that lead you,

one, was that conscious? Like I'm going to let this lead me somewhere. I think initially it wasn't. It was just, I don't care. It was more about like, I don't care what the ramifications are or if this is going to cost me or cause problems in my life. Like, I just feel like I need to do this. So it began with that. And then it became, once I, once it sort of kicked in, I was like, I'm going to continue to pursue this thread wherever it may lead me. And that may mean I always continue to be a lawyer. I didn't know.

There was no clarity at all. It was just, what am I doing today? And then waking up the next day, I'm like, how am I going to spend my time? So has that changed everything? Absolutely. And has it changed for the good? Without a doubt. And is there something mystical in that?

Or whatever the word is. In other words, is it... Part of what I'm asking is like, do you believe this? Do you believe every part of what you just said? I believe it, but I also have... Because it's a story that I've told so often, I worry that I lose my connection with the truth of it. Yeah.

You know, and so for me, I have to make a conscious effort to really like revisit it as honestly as I possibly can, because I want to answer you as honestly as I can. It's that thing where when you look back in retrospect, it seems like it all lined up perfectly. But in the midst of it, it was extremely confusing. I didn't have clarity about it. And I would like to say, oh, I was on this spiritual mission. Certainly it was mystical because it doesn't make sense in a rational way. And there was plenty of doubt along the road where I thought I was losing the plot

and that I was being foolish. And I was certainly reminded by many people that I was. And so it took- Reminded what? I'm sorry, sorry to say. Like, what are you doing? Oh, I see. Like, why are you doing this?

You should be doing this. Right. I heard a lot of that. And I have to credit my wife who always was like, who's always been my teacher in this regard. Who's like, listen, the resolution to the pain that you're suffering, the growth that you seek, the path forward,

you can't shortcut it. And the only way to gain the clarity and to actualize in the way that you're seeking is to follow this thread and see it through and whatever happens, like I have your back. So there was a lot of financial turmoil. There was a lot of, you know, it was fucking hard, man, you know, for a long time, but it was that conviction that I couldn't, I couldn't have had that on my own. Like it was her support that allowed me to kind of maintain the course. So when I look back now, it's like, it's insane. It's insane that I'm sitting here having a conversation with you today. Like my life has

changed in every conceivable fashion. And I can't attribute that to anything other than the mystical aspect of what it means to connect with yourself as a spiritual being, having a physical experience. Yeah. Well, you know, the, I don't even know what this means. And I mean that, but I have, I have like but I pray, right? If you ask me to who, I could bore you with an answer, but I pray. And one of the things I've discovered through that is that I pay a lot of attention to what I ask for, you know? Because I feel the way you feel. I mean, I look back and I think,

and I've been in bankruptcy court, like I've been through some stuff, you know, I've had a crazy road. I'll take my road all day long. A lot of people deal with things much worse, but my road is not some straight, happy-go-lucky road. A lot of pain, a lot of pain. But the most clear thing I can hope for is that I can continue to be useful, right? And I have to be open to the fact that I don't know exactly what

that means, right? So I can buy my story. You were talking about your story. I can buy my story. And if I'm praying for my story, I'm off. Something's wrong. I'm too invested in this story and not enough into sort of like, what is the spark of the thing that's motivating you in the first place? And be open to the fact that it can change. It's not gonna always be the same. So every now and again, I find myself saying,

I just sort of speaking to the world and saying, how can I be the most useful to the world? And I feel better when I'm doing that because it's a little scary to say that because I want to deliver. I want to deliver for my business. I want to deliver for the people I work with. I want to uncover some things and grow some things and discover some things that I just feel crazy about. But I got to be open to the fact that I don't know where the path is. And I think you can get to places where you think like, ah, okay, now I got the path. You're like, uh-oh.

And release your pressure on the gas. But I think in my experience, when you are in that mentality and practice of service, how can I be useful to others? How can I give of myself freely? That that is the way to get clarity and resolution on all the other things that you're confused about. And that is mystical in its own right because it doesn't make sense. Yeah. But that has proven true in my life many times over.

Yeah. Yeah, me too. So what, sorry, go ahead. Well, I was just gonna say, I learned that when I'm on as much as I'm off, because I've been off plenty of times. Right, well, yeah, when you're off and then, you know, you get the universe,

you know, like slaps you across the face and you get the reminder. Yeah. What was the impetus to go to divinity school? You know, so I'm at least 50% believing that there's more to this story. You know, I was reading, I was rereading Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. I read it in 1988 and I read it again in like 2011 or something like that, maybe 12. And I was reading A Brief History of Time at the same time, same time reading those two books.

And, you know, to read Zen and the Art, however many years later, I don't want to do the math, 20-something years later, which is a totally different book. I couldn't believe what I was reading. I thought, I've already read this. How is that possible? As I was reading it, I thought, and by the way, Stephen Hawking opens the book by saying, I'm going to tell you everything that's happened since the Big Bang, and I don't know what happened before. And so I'm like, ah, you just left the door open. But as the stories were weaving together and you're learning about the nature of time and gravity and all these different things,

and then you're reading about, what is it, quality. They talk a lot about quality in Zen and the art. It was amazing the way the two stories wove together. And I just, again, I think there's a better than 50% chance that there's more to the story. Like there are things out there that we just have no idea about. And I thought, here I am, however old I was, 45, 48 years old, and I don't know much about it. I don't know anything about it. So I thought, gosh, to have the opportunity, you know, Yale's not that far down the road from me.

And I had the time then, I had the time then. Go learn, like go dive in, go see. And, you know, I always find this interesting dividing point. I say to somebody, or they find out I'm in divinity school. A lot of people, they don't wanna talk to me. You know, they wanna leave at that moment. And then other people are super curious about it. And, you know, I don't know what I am.

I don't know what I believe, but I believe, you know? So if you ask me, like, for example, I'm a Joseph Campbell person generally. I mean, it's sort of like, he's sort of the guy who has probably opened my eyes more than anybody else. And it's a lot about sort of pointing, like, you know, stories point you to places. But in and of themselves, they're not answers per se. They just sort of enlighten you to possibilities of getting answers.

But if you think about, okay, for example, the story of Jesus. By the way, very controversial dude. There are certain words you can't say, for example, at the Nantucket Project, not because we have a list of rules, but because this is how humans are today. Jesus used to be on the list, and then people started to talk about it. Very taboo word, very interesting word. I don't know if I think that that story is true and that he is the son of God and that Mary is his mother and Mary was a virgin and gave birth to this guy. But if you read the story and you can be in the story and you can learn from the story, I believe in that. And I don't know if that makes sense. So when people ask me, do you believe that Jesus is the son of God? I say at a minimum, I kind of believe in the. And I don't know if that makes sense. But so when people ask me, like, do you believe that Jesus is the son of God?

I say at a minimum, I kind of believe in the story of it. I can take a lot from that story. But, you know, I've studied Buddhism and I've studied lots of things. So I can take that in a lot of different stories. But I won't jump up and down and say this or that or the other thing is not true because I don't know. Well, this is the stuff of life. The other thing is not true, because I don't know. Well, this is the stuff of life. This is perhaps the most fascinating subject matter

that grapples with what it means to be alive and be human. And it's weird that we're in a time where the pursuit of trying to better understand these myths and these traditions and these religions that have defined us as a species is somehow sort of stigmatized or makes people think that you're weird for wanting to do that.

I know. Because is there anything more magical and fascinating and truly important because it's asking the question like, what is the best way to be a human? And how can you be happy? And how can you give of yourself and be fulfilled and find meaning in this short time that we share on earth? And I think when you look at the story of Jesus, it's like, you know, set aside, son of God, you know, all of that. It's like, this guy was a radical revolutionary who spoke truth to power in a time where it was very dangerous to do that

amidst a culture of very oppressed people in a specific part of the world. And that was revolution. I mean, this guy was like hardcore, you know, And the more you learn, if you just look at it and evaluate it from a pure historical perspective, in juxtaposition to the controlling forces in that area of the planet at that time, it's fucking fascinating. Amazing, yeah. No, I do. Are you familiar with Rob Bell?

No. Pastor Rob Bell, former megaachurch pastor who broke ranks and really has reinvented himself as a deep thinker and an interesting thinker about Christian traditions. He's a remarkable, amazing human being. And he's become a friend spent on the podcast is coming back on Friday. There's a brand new documentary about him that is going to be premiering on Amazon and iTunes on Thursday. It's called the heretic. You should definitely check it out. By the time this airs for the audience listening, um, it will be available. And Julie and I were able to go to the premiere the other day. And it's a very interesting look at a man who took a different position on how he looks at the story of Jesus and how it's been co-opted by our culture and has spoken openly and publicly about this at great personal peril. Like it just basically, you know, it destroyed his life and he's been, he's had to rebuild it in a new and interesting way. And when he talks, he's got a podcast called The Robcast.

You should check that out as well. But I think you would find it super interesting. Hmm. My, my, when I got to Yale, so the one, the thing I didn't mention was recovery, right? You know, there's a big chunk of people in this world who are healthy and in recovery by virtue of programs that have God at the center of them, right? And a lot of them are people who didn't have God in the center of anything, right? A lot of them. And, you know, we were talking, believe, like, do you believe the story of your commitment to running and the choices that you made and where it brought you? And in a similar vein, I would ask the same thing about spirituality and like the, you know, its relationships, the 12 steps.

And, you know, you go in these rooms and you get these people who, a lot of them, you know, they were like the opposite of any part of that world, right? We know these people. you know, they were like the opposite of any part of that world, right? We know these people. And then they get this spiritual connection and they might turn into like incredibly beautiful, happy, giving, positive members of our culture, you know, like incredible. And then you ask the question like, well, they say that God is part of what got them there. Do they believe that? Like, do they really embrace that?

And what are they talking about when they talk about God? Like, what do they mean? What does spiritual mean? You know, people say I'm spiritual, not religious. What does that actually mean? So that was a lot of what took me there. You know, that was a lot of what guided me there. And how do you answer that question? Well, I just, you know, to me, it is a, it's kind of what took me there. You know, that was a lot of what guided me there. And how do you answer that question?

Well, I just, you know, to me, it's kind of what I said to you before. Like, I believe there's way more to this story, and I'll never know what it is. But I am perfectly content seeking and contemplating it throughout and then practicing certain things in my life and see what it does for me and for my family and to the people around me. and see what it does for me and for my family and to the people around me. I mean, my family is as big a benefactor of my attempt to be healthy than anyone. Of course. Yeah. It's like, so I can say it's about me

and on a certain level it is about me, but they live much better lives when I'm, you know, seeking some of these different kinds of things. So that's kind of my answer. And it's part of what drew me to school. But the thing I was gonna say is when I got there, you know, my first class was, well, no, my first class was, does God exist? And fascinating, 14 proofs for God, not God, three prove not God, 11 prove God. And it's just really interesting to walk through them. I couldn't recite them back to you, but my mind was

blown. But then I took Old Testament and my Old Testament professor was a guy named Joel Baden, who's a friend now. Best teacher I've ever had of any kind. Just brilliant, brilliant guy. Well, he's a Jewish non-believer. And it's really interesting. And I don't know what I was when I walked in there. And I don't know what I am now. And I mean that sincerely, I'm open to sort of lots of different things, but really interesting to walk into what I expected to be like a believing Christian who is sort of touting certain things to sort of lay that out. And I walk away from that more than anything else, not knowing, but, but I do sort of, you know, so when people say I don't like religion and dogma, well, that's dogma. It's its own version of dogma.

It's its own version of dogma. So I don't know where I am on the spiritual, not religious thing. I just don't know. I don't even know what people say when they, mean when they say that. And I'm okay, you know, done yoga for years and I'm not doing it now, but I did it for many years.

And I'd go along with the namaste's and all the stuff and get into the God. And was I believing? Was I religious? Was I spiritual? I don't know. I was just enjoying it. What is the composition of the student body in that program? I would assume there's people there who want to be priests.

Yeah, yeah. And then there's sort of average people, sort of just academic-minded people like yourself. There's all of the above. I mean, it's very – I'm kind of fascinated by the people who have been believers their whole lives. You know, and there's lots of them, you know. Or to a certain extent. I mean, that's one of the things. Like this woman, Nadia Bowles Weber, who like broke the Jesus barrier at the Nantucket Project.

Really fascinating woman. What do you mean she broke? What does that mean? Well, so she stood, she gave a benediction at the Nantucket Project. And I'm not going to remember. Oh, she was the first person to use, okay, I got that. She used Jesus, yeah. And she said something like, so her benediction was like, blessed are the crack whores.

Blessed are the strung out, I mean, this woman is a woman who's been in recovery and she's a Lutheran. I think a Lutheran. And I don't remember where I was going with the story, but- She broke the Jesus prayer. This powerful, yeah, yeah, yeah. But, you know, like the idea that this guy hung around prostitutes and did all these different things. And then when you read the Old Testament from the perspective of someone who's a nonbeliever but a brilliant guy who knows a cult, it's like a free-for-all. You know, they're sleeping with your brother and your sister and this guy's wife and the violence.

I mean, it's a crazy book. These books are intense. Did you study the Bhagavad Gita also? Is it just a Christian tradition program? It's all there. It's all there. And I have, but not in depth. Right.

You know, I did a, my first semester, I did a course, Meditation East and West, and it was taught by a woman who's a nun, Catholic nun. And awesome, awesome. I mean, we're going, you know, we're doing Buddhist, and I don't even remember, like all these different forms of meditation and going pretty deep on that

while we're simultaneously doing like different Catholic traditions, like the Lectio Divina and all these things that I'd never even heard of. And the long story short is like there are these Christian mystics throughout history who just were these fascinating people. And my whole point being that I didn't know the first thing about Christianity when I got there and I didn't know much about the other things. But their links and their, again, it goes back to Joseph Campbell. Like he's the guy who actually figured,

or one of the people who figured all this out. So how does this, that experience kind of frame your perspective on your life and what you're trying to express? Like, has it changed how you approach that? To a certain extent, because I think, like most people, I'm not comfortable being like thought of as the weirdo, but I know that sort of the meaning I've taken out of those. I mean, I got

to also take constitutional law through one of the best Yale law school professors and I took political science courses and things. But, you know, it's what we were talking about Facebook earlier. There's way more to this story. I mean, whatever conventional wisdom is at any given moment is such a small part of the story. And the idea that we're the first, you know, era in history to have it all figured out, like, forget it. That's just crazy. And we really, we get into these moments where we think we just have everything all figured out. And I appreciate Silicon Valley technology and all these other things as much as anybody else does.

But, you know, at the same time, you got, you could talk about Plato and Aristotle for weeks. Yeah. And it's a good reminder that all these things are there. Like it's a good reminder to hear your story. And that truth, I say truth, and that you kind of said truth. I don't know what... I'm gonna say truth, which was the thing that attracted you to sort of change your life. Which by the way, some of it was an attraction and some of it was a, I got to get out of here. You know, the ability to connect with that story is really complicated and

really important, like really, really, really important and really, really, really a gift. important and really, really, really a gift. And it helped me make sense of, you know, judgment. And I don't mean in a Jesus sense, I just mean, you know, I live in a place like where you live, where these people are judged big time, you know, talking about religious people are judged where I come from. And I just think once you get into the practice of doing that kind of thing, you're going down a path that you're

going to be the person who pays the price. We all pay a price for that. But it did a lot to sort of open me up to that and like work hard to always be open to the fact that you may not know what the heck you're talking about. Yeah. Humility. Yeah. Yeah. Which is hard to learn. Hard. You know.

Only, it's only a practice, right? Yeah, I mean, it's certainly not my default. No, not me either. It requires work and awareness to get there. But when you can touch that space, your ability to connect with yourself and other people is profoundly enhanced. Yeah.

You know, I think about depression. Like I suffered from depression two periods of my life where it was most intense. And, you know, I was prescribed Zoloft, Welbutrin, Propanolol, and Valium, all at the same time, right? I was crazy, crazy as a result of taking those pills. I was probably crazy anyway, I'm not saying I wasn't,

but I was crazy when I took those pills. And I haven't taken anything in more than a decade. I try to eat well and I don't do any of that stuff, and I'm very happy generally. I have a peace in my life generally. It can come and go, but one of the things that I've woken up to is, now, there's a lot of stories here,

so this is just my story. I'm not gonna, people can use any pills they prefer. I think, I don't know. I'm not taking a position on that. But what I am saying is lack of humility manifests itself in a negative focus on yourself in a really powerful way. And I think somehow if I know I used to interpret

a kind of humility as like, don't get too full of yourself. And it turns out, no, it's don't think about yourself all the time. And I think my depression was a lot about that. It was a lot about like focus on myself all day long and negative, but okay. Yeah, and I think that self-centeredness

can take many forms. It can take the form of being too focused on your that self-centeredness can take many forms it can it can take the form of being too focused on your own self-improvement yeah you know i mean that's a laudable you know sort of perspective and yet it can still lead you astray because it's all about you yeah you know and i think broadening that aperture is an antidote for a lot of what ails us. But it's in counterpoint to the marshaling of all of the influences and stimuli that we're exposed to every day that's telling us to get your own and where's mine? And how can I get this quicker

and arrive at the destination sooner? And I think it's making us profoundly unhappy. Have you read Johan Hari's new book about depression? No. You should check it out. He did this massive study, interviewed a million people. He was recently on Joe Rogan's podcast and talked about it for like three hours. It was fascinating.

Getting at the root of what is actually making us depressed. And it's like you said, you sort of alluded to earlier, like it's a much more complicated, nuanced thing than, oh, you have some brain chemistry that's a little bit off. And if I give you this cocktail, it's going to fix it. And again, I'm not saying I have no opinion on the appropriateness of those medications. I think a lot of people have benefited from them, but I think we're too quick to prescribe at, at the, you know, while forsaking all of these other things that are contributing to this malaise that we're experiencing as a culture in a profound and unprecedented way. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. No, I, I, I agree with all of what you said.

All right. Well, we got to land this plane. Okay. But let's leave some, we've got like a downer here at the end, to leave people with a little bit of an uplifting thing. I mean, look, you've lived an incredible life, man. I mean, amazing what you've been able to express and experience and all these amazing people as a result of the work that you do in the Nantucket Project.

If you could take some kernel of wisdom out of that and impart it to somebody who is listening to this, who maybe is inspired but is stuck. Like, I just can't, you know, I can't break free of this self-created prison that I'm in or I'm in a job that is not suited to me or I can't, you know, whatever it is, some mental or very real world barrier.

Yeah. You know, I'm going to read something I wrote earlier. Belief is my general answer. Like, I asked you, you know, I asked, I feel very strongly that you found a path through that sun on your back on that run. I just really, really, in every part of my heart, believe that. And not one person in the history of time, well, maybe they exist because I can't, that's a broad statement, but knows, knows, knows where it's going. No one knows, you know? And especially in the 90s, we'd go to all these like entrepreneur, this, that, and the other thing, you meet all these people.

The paths are a mess. They're all a mess. Like there's no perfect path. Oh, they were great managers. They had a perfect call. No one does. No one did. It's never happened.

And so how do people find their way through? They find that little place, that little spark. And in the end, you gotta have faith in that. You gotta believe in that. You gotta choose that over all the other choices and keep going. Cause all the other choices stink. And I learned all that the hard way. I learned all of that the hard way.

I remember when I was in bankruptcy, you go and they lay out your case and it's pretty harsh, and you're sitting there and you can just tell the judge is like, who is this idiot that we're reading about right now? Like what an idiot. And then finally he says,

and I'm sitting there hearing all this read out. And the judge says, who is Thomas W. Scott? And I'm like, that is a great fricking question. And I mean, I had a moment of clarity. I had a moment of clarity where I was just like, thank you, that's a good question. But the point is, I thought, I only have one choice right here,

and I am gonna walk forward and do the very best I can as I'm going out of this darkness. Because there's no other choice. There is no other choice that works. Now, they are there, but it's just illogical. Like, you've learned all this stuff, so just have a moment of faith. So in episode one of the Nystad Brothers, Van quotes Jean-Luc Godard, and I wrote it down today for some reason. I looked it up, but it says, all the dragons in our lives are perhaps princesses expecting us to be handsome and brave. All the terrifying things are perhaps nothing but

helpless things waiting for us to help them. And it just, you know, everything I've experienced in my life and all those dragons that kind of sit there that you think of as these just horrible things are like the guide. It's that thing kind of waiting for you to just kind of take that step and to keep going. And in the end, like, that's the beauty of the story. That's the beauty of the path, you know? And it's never, you know, when we would go to business schools, like I still do that, but they lionize you.

And I sometimes think like, these people are gonna go out and they're gonna start into the mud and they're gonna be like, what the fuck happened? And then truth is a little, because everyone walks in the mud. Like Harvard Business School did like a case study on you guys, right?

Like, right. That was, I mean, it was like, yeah. And that would happen. They would lionize us. I mean, I did try as often as I could to sort of say, this is not as. Right, but beneath that, like basically it's a beautiful passage.

Thank you for reading that. I mean, what I gather from that, what I get out of that is, first of all, understanding that the way we view the world is a perspective. And that perspective is malle direction, it could completely realign how you navigate your path. And then sort of second to that is this idea of not trying to avoid obstacles in your life or this idea that if you face them, that somehow you failed, but to understand that not only is this part of it,

it's inescapable and it should be welcome because every obstacle that you face is your opportunity to grow. And that growth is, you know, more than your business is what you're really here to do. Yeah. Yeah. And, and I would just so emphasize that I believe in what you just said. Like I really believe it. I think the, and I say that because I think often, and I do it, it sounds poetic and we take it as poetry and not like faith. Truth. Yeah. And just to, you know, you go, you go, you just keep going. It's good talking to you, man. that was awesome that was great yeah thank you so much uh beautiful if people want to um connect with you and your mission what's the best place

nantucketproject.com and if anyone wants to they can write me at tom at nantucketproject.com a lot of emails um and if you want to check out some of the speakers that you have, you guys have a YouTube channel, right? And you can see all that. We do, we do. And the Neighborhood Project, if you want to start a Neighborhood Project, they're in, I don't know, like 25 states now. Oh, that's cool. Yeah, it's growing. So is there a website for that or is that part of Nantucket?

Nantucketproject.com. There's a Neighborhood Project part on there. We launch it formally on the first day of spring, but it's out there and it's kind of growing organject.com. There's a Neighborhood Project part on there. We launch it formally on the first day of spring, but it's out there and it's kind of growing organically. Awesome. And the Neighborhood Project podcast. Yeah, I gotta talk to you about that. You've got like three episodes of it.

You're like one of the three people who knows that. Well, it's on the web. Like you texted me, hey, like here's a little thing where I'm really into right now, but I had already found it on the web. I was like, oh, what is this? Like he's doing a podcast? Like, you know, so I had already found it on the web. I was like, Oh, what is this? Like he's doing a podcast. Like,

you know, so I had already checked it out. So it's, it's out in the world, right? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we are serious rookies at this,

but yes, it is. No, man, I loved it. People should check it out. Okay, cool,

man. Thanks dude. All right. Peace. All right. We did it and it was good. you guys enjoyed that as always please check out the show notes for links and resources related to today's conversation on the episode page at richroll.com plant power way italia our new cookbook it's coming out soon april 24th it

would mean a ton to us if you pre-ordered your copy today what are you waiting for come on you guys i'm telling you this book is awesome it's 10 times better than The Plant Power Way, our first cookbook that seemed to really resonate with people. So just trust us. Pick it up. You're going to love it. And if you're a woman, make sure to check out the second most recent blog post on my site. There's a post there all about how you have a chance to win a free spot on our upcoming retreat in Tuscany, May 19th through 26th of this year, 2018. It's a $5,000 value. Contest is only open for a couple more days through April 24th. So you guys got to jump on it now. Really excited about this new book and can't wait for it to be out in the world to share with you guys. If you would like to support

my work, please subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts or on whatever platform you enjoy this content. And you can also support the show on Patreon at richroll.com forward slash donate. I want to thank everybody who helped put on the show today. Jason Camiello for audio engineering, production, show notes, interstitial music, blog post help, whatever. The guy is like doing a lot of work. So thank you, Jason. Blake Curtis for video and graphics and theme music as always by Annalema. Thanks for the love, you guys. I'll be back here in a couple of days, headed to New York tomorrow.

Pretty excited about that. And more on the way. Tons of great episodes and great conversations headed in your direction in coming weeks. Appreciate you guys. Much love. Talk to you soon. Peace plants.

Namaste. Thank you.