The Rich Roll Podcast - Trans Athlete Chris Mosier On Making History (+ Nadia)

Episode Date: May 11, 2020

Meet Chris Mosier — arguably the most prominent and accomplished transgender athlete working to progress cultural perceptions and activate legislative change. You may recognize Chris from the viral Nike commercial that aired during the 2016 Rio Olympics. In addition to being the first transgender athlete to be sponsored by Nike, Chris holds the distinction of being the first trans athlete ever to be featured in the ESPN Body Issue. Among his many accomplishments, Chris is a hall of fame triathlete, All-American duathlete, 2-time National Champion, and a 6-time member of Team USA. In 2015 he became the first known transgender man to represent the United States in international competition. As an activist, Chris has spent years at the forefront of the LGBTQ+ rights movement, paving a more inclusive path for future trans athletes. In 2015, he was the catalyst for changing the International Olympic Committee’s policy on transgender athletes to provide such individuals with the right to represent their country at the Olympic Games. And in 2016, Chris drove further policy change within the IOC, expanding the rights of transgender athletes to take part in the Olympic Games without the previously required necessity of gender reassignment surgery. Profiled everywhere from Rolling Stone to the New York Times, Chris is also the founder of Transathlete.com, a resource for students, athletes, coaches, and administrators to find information about trans inclusion in athletics at various levels of play. He has mentored transgender athletes around the globe, from high school and recreational to the professional levels, and helped teams, leagues, and professional sports leagues create gender-inclusive policies. Aside from his physical prowess, what impresses me most about Chris is his courage. He had the option to stay silent — to make the most of his passing privilege without enduring the scrutiny that accompanies a public coming out. But he did so to set precedent. To change public perception. And stand as a beacon of hope and possibility for those who will come after him. This is a conversation about Chris’s unique life. His transition. His trials. And his tribulations. It’s about the privileges of gender, race, and class. It’s about what it’s like having your very existence up for debate, and how our country is treating so many of her citizens as non-humans. For context, consider that 41% of trans youth attempt suicide. Horrific and unacceptable, it's a statistic that must change. Together we can do better. So it is with pride that I share Chris’ story, bravery, and vulnerability with you today. Note: This conversation was recorded pre-pandemic, thus there is no mention of the coronavirus. May this episode provide a significant and thoughtful reprieve from your 24/7 pandemic news feed. And for something new & different: Today's appetizer to the main course is Nadia Bolz-Weber -- my favorite heavily tattooed Lutheran pastor from RRP #428 -- who drops in to talk quarantine, 'grace for fuckups' and her fabulous new podcast, The Confessional. The visually inclined can watch it all go down on YouTube. And as always, the audio version streams wild and free on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. I sincerely hope you find this exchange as revealing and enlightening as I did. Peace + Plants, Rich

I think that sport is one of the most magical places for people to exist. I think that sport is a vehicle for social change, and the change that happens within sports in terms of policies and acceptance and inclusion can really be a guide for the rest of the world. And we've seen it in the past, and I think that we're at a crossroads right now where how we treat inclusion in sport is going to reflect in the rest of society. When we are authentic about who we are, and it's not safe for everyone to come out, but if we are able to do that, you know, your entire world opens up. And it not just impacts you, but it impacts the people around you.

And I think that's really how social change is created, you know, is that ripple effect. And so I am going to put myself out there. And most of it is to be who I needed when I was younger. That's Chris Mosier, this week on The Rich Roll Podcast. The Rich Roll Podcast. Hey, all you beautiful beings of light and love. Rich Roll, your humble and sometimes grateful host. I'm working on it. Out here on the podcast beat, welcome or welcome back. My guest today is Chris Mosier.

Chris is a trailblazing Hall of Fame triathlete, a two-time national champion race walker, a six-time member of Team USA in both duathlon and triathlon, and the first openly trans man to qualify to represent the United States in international competition. Many of you may recognize Chris from his viral Nike commercial that aired during the 2016 Rio Olympics. Not only is he the very first transgender athlete to be sponsored by Nike, he is the first known transgender athlete to compete in the Olympic trials in the gender they identify. And these are just his achievements as an athlete. He's also a very outspoken activist on LGBTQ rights. In 2015, Chris succeeded in convincing the International Olympic Committee to change their policy, giving trans athletes the privilege to represent their country at the Olympic Games.

And in 2016, Chris compelled another IOC policy change to allow transgender athletes to take part in the Olympics without needing to have gender reassignment surgery. Chris is a super awesome guy. This is a really fun and quite enlightening discussion. And it's coming up in a few, but first. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since,

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So, remember when I did a brief check-in call segment with Mishka Shubali a few weeks ago? That was in the Chris Houth, Coach's Corner episode. People seemed to really enjoy it. So, before we jump in with Mr. Mosier, I thought I'd do it again, this time with another one of my very favorite people, Nadia Bowles-Weber. You guys remember Nadia, right?

That was episode 428. Well, real quick for any newer folks, Nadia is my ordained but quite iconoclastic Lutheran pastor buddy. She's a three-time New York Times bestselling author. And one of her books, Accidental Saints, great book, by the way, our mutual friend, Pete Holmes,

just dropped into a Simpson episode that he wrote that just aired, which pretty much solidifies Nadia's cool factor forever. In any event, Nadia is the host of a brand new podcast that I'm really loving. It's called The Confessional. It's pretty great. It features some people who have been on this show,

like Chris Schumacher and Mishka Shubali himself. And I just wanted to give Nadia a quick minute to tell you guys a little bit about her new show. This is not an ad. I just love her to death and wanted to talk to her. So here's Nadia. How's it going? I mean, how is your quarantine experience treating you? I have enjoyed almost all of it, oddly. I mean, of course, there's lots of loss and like we're all grieving these events that aren't happening.

Or, you know, a friend of mine is my youth pastor growing up is is on the verge. He'll probably pass today or tomorrow from COVID. So there are these horrible things. And yet having so much time in my apartment has I've loved. And my my daughter is even like sleeping on the sofa because I live in a one bedroom apartment, but the apartment's beautiful. I have this little balcony, I have a puppy and I don't know. I think I, I didn't realize it until somebody asked me last week when we were talking, but

I, I think I have a gift for just being wherever I'm at. And maybe it comes from having traveled so much. You know, I was on 90 airplanes last year. And I'm just, I can be okay wherever I am somehow. And the fact that I get to be home that much is, I'm just, I really have, for the most part, enjoyed it. Yeah. I'm just, I really have for the most part enjoyed it. Yeah. There is something nice about being able to wipe the slate clean

and no longer have a bunch of commitments that you agreed to a long time ago when it seemed like a good idea. And then when they crop up, you're like, am I really wanting to do this? Right. And also I think, you know, I've put a lot of thought into how alcoholism and recovery contribute to this experience

that we're having on some level as alcoholics. We're like war tested for this. We have a toolbox, I think that comes in quite handy for figuring out how to navigate all of this emotionally, but we're also like Olympic level isolators. So you know what I mean? Like, oh now you- That's my secret. I actually socially isolate anyway.

Yeah, and it's socially acceptable now. Yeah, well also, you know, we had acceptance just hammered into us. That's the key, acceptance, you know? And surrender. That's right. Surrendering to what is, what is happening. And maybe that's the key, acceptance, you know? And surrender. That's right. Surrendering to what is, what is happening. And maybe that's why I have an ability

to just be okay wherever I am generally from that. Well, that is a gift. It is for sure. That is a gift. Well, congratulations on the new podcast. It's making quite a splash on the charts. Yeah, although I think the day after it came out, your friend Mishka posted something that said, the true sign of the tide turning with this COVID

crisis is when we see fewer new podcasts and not more new podcasts every day. There have to be a certain number. Right. The most valuable graph. When the growth rate of podcasts starts to plateau. We reached peak podcast. So then I was like, wah, wah. I know. But amidst all the noise, you are a signal in that. And you've made a stamp coming out strong

with the confessional. I love the tagline, a car wash for shame and secrets. Yeah. Yeah. That's what it feels like. It has been an absolute joy to create this thing, to have this idea and then to have the best partners I can imagine in bringing it forward and with PRX and The Moth and just locally here in Denver, House of Pod. I just feel like the absolute right people came along. And you know, I had a struggle for a while trying to figure out how to bring this about. You and I talked about it. Yeah, we've talked many times over the last... I mean, this idea cropped up. It was around the time when you came and did the podcast, I think. I mean, when was that,

like a year and a half ago or something? Yeah, something like that. Yeah. So it's been there a while. Yeah. Well, here it is. It's beautifully produced and very well done. I think in this day and age, just coming out with another long form conversation podcast isn't enough. You need a specific point of view and an angle. You certainly have a point of view, but to set the context as the confessional and to create this safe space for people to be vulnerable and share their story and have it be received by somebody who is, you know, kind of tested in this format, to be able to hear that with the level of compassion and grace that you have,

I think makes it unique and special. Oh, yeah, thanks. All I ever wanna hear is the worst thing anybody's ever done anyway. I think it's a really selfish way of making that happen. I mean, I'm just like, how long do we have to wait till I find out? Like, what's the worst thing you've ever done? I don't know. Let's get to the good part.

Exactly. I don't have time for like, kind of bullshit chit chatty stuff. So, also, I'm just a huge believer in so often, if you can get somebody to talk about their biggest regret, the thing they have the most shame about that they have done, not that was done to them, but they have done, you'll find an origin story in terms of who they became after that, nine times out of 10. And so while it's not saying, oh, it's okay, you did this horrible thing that hurt all these people. It's also to say like, look, I, God, I hate to even say, I believe in redemption. I mean, if we don't believe in, like, if we don't think people can change, that people can pivot and go a different direction, or in my tradition, you know, repent, like think differently at different points in their life. Like if we don't believe in human transformation, what the fuck are we doing?

Like what are we doing? Reading literature or going to recovery meetings or meditating or any of the stuff that we do. I mean, I just believe in it. And I'm sort of desperate for stories, for stories about redemption, about actual human transformation, because that story is going to be a lot messier than, you know, most of what we're going to see in the media, you know, or certainly in social media. Oh, it's as messy as it gets. And I think

that, you know, intellectually, we're all on board with redemption, but we find ourselves in this moment where it's all about cancel culture and the ability of somebody who has done something terrible to redeem themselves in the kind of, you know, Godhead of public consciousness is very much in question. For sure. And I think for you to be able to, I mean, you come out of the gate super strong with Megan Phelps Roper. I mean, it's the most, you know, powerful of all stories when it comes to this. And to see that evolution play out over time and to be received by you,

I think gives all of us pause to consider how we approach and react to things that we see in the media and how people behave and what our own personal responsibility is when it comes to whether or not we can, you know, allow that person the space to grow and evolve and change. Man, I read a piece Amanda Knox wrote yesterday. She was a foreign exchange student in Italy, an American girl, remember? And she was accused of the like rape and murder of her roommate. And she was wrongfully, you know, imprisoned for, gosh, over a thousand days.

And she's an extraordinary person. She wrote a think piece about the Tiger King docuseries and how much of people's sort of disgust and rage and outrage was pointed towards Carole Baskin and this assumption that she murdered her husband. But this think piece that Amanda Knox wrote said, hey, let's just give pause for a minute. This is a documentary filmmaker has given you very specific information. And that's very different than actual set of all the facts that are available.

And so we cannot assume that somebody is guilty of something because of an editorial choice a documentary filmmaker made. And it made me go, wow, like her perspective is so searing and distinct given what she went through. In terms of the court of public opinion, you know, the Italian people, for the most part, just decided she fit, she was a character in a narrative. She was not a person. And that character was that she was a whore. And they cast her in that. And then they convicted that character.

They didn't convict her. It was, they decided who she was. So, I mean, I have a friend who's an Episcopal priest in New York named Jacob Smith. And I just always quote him because he says, look, we're all three bad days away from being an internet scandal. And most of us are already on day two. Oh, no. We should fucking relax. Everybody relax because you know it's you next.

It's going to be you next. It's gonna be you next. Yeah, and how do we see our way forward as a culture? I mean, one of the lines in your conversation with Megan, who we should say is formerly of the Westboro Baptist Church and has had this epiphany and evolution in terms of her perspective on humanity, I could say broadly, I suppose. But I can't remember whether it was her or you who said, we perpetrate more harm when

we act out of virtue than vice. Yeah, that was me. I was like, look, you're so much more capable of harming other people when you're sure you're being good. I mean, look, even police stations have a vice squad. And I'm like, where's the virtue squad? Like, we should have a virtue squad. Policing all the people who are sure, like, first of all, they have God on their side. That's dangerous, you know. Or, you know, just absolutely sure we're doing the good thing against the people

who are doing the bad thing. That dualistic thinking is just so toxic and I don't know. Yeah. And packed into that is this idea that by shaming that person, you're going to change their mind. And, you know, if Megan's example stands for anything, it's that that's not the case. It's only through understanding and compassion and grace and conversation that we can kind of get to the other side. Yeah. I mean, talking shit about people who do bad is not the same thing as doing good. And I think we've sort of subtly equated it that way, at least on social media. So the only reason I have these conversations where I really try to be compassionate and I try to understand somebody as a whole person and I look for stories of redemption is literally not because I'm good at it. It's not because I'm good at any of it. It's because I'm just desperate for it myself,

that I'm willing to go to those lengths to find it for myself. So I don't know that I'm naturally compassionate. I've just sort of realized how much I need compassion. And so therefore I'm like, well, then I guess I have to start there by offering it. It's just a different approach, I guess. My favorite thing is just writing these. It's just a different approach, I guess. My favorite thing is just writing these blessings at the end. Yeah, they're beautiful. Of each episode, because since I'm not in a parish, I've just kind of always been asking myself, like, what's mine to do? How can I be a pastoral voice and presence for people

who don't intellectually assent to the same theological propositions I do, or who will never find themselves in a church. And it's like, I don't know, that's been a joy. That's been the biggest joy for me is writing those. Well, compassion is a practice, I think, just like gratitude or acceptance or surrender. It's a muscle that needs to be flexed and worked out.

Yeah, because you just listed four things I am not naturally good at. Yeah. Like those, literally. Trust me, left to my own devices, locked up in a house with six people. There's a lot of frustration and resentment and anger and outbursts and lack of gratitude

going around, coming out of me. Yeah. So. Yeah, coming out of me. Yeah. So. Yeah. It's, yeah. I mean, that's why my parishioners, when I was in my parish, were like, we're so glad we have a preacher who's clearly preaching to herself and just letting us overhear it.

I think that's just what my work has always ended up being. Some version of that is trying to proclaim the thing I need to hear, I guess. That's the best. You know, when somebody is telling you, you should feel this way or do this, or here's your five, you know, tips to success in any facet of your life, I immediately tune out. Yeah. I immediately tune out, but I'm hyper aware when somebody is doing it from a place of their own personal self-learning. And I find that to be the most kind of powerful medium for teaching when it's like, you're interested in this because this is what you need to work on. So we're all working it out in real time together. Oh, my God. Totally.

I mean, I almost always speak out of a deficit of something rather than out of an abundance of it. So it's not like I have so much compassion, like I have so much extra. I'm just going to help you have some. Let's give you some of mine. I just have to skim it off the top. Just don't. I'm like, I am desperate and maybe together we could find enough that for both of us. Who are some of the other people coming up on the show? Let's see. I have Amy Brenneman,

the actress. Chris Schumacher is next week, who you and I have both met. Former guest on my show as well. Yeah, he's incredible. Is Pete Holmes gonna do it? I don't know that Pete's done anything bad enough, man. Yeah, that's the problem, right? Like he was such a good Christian boy. I don't know, I'm gonna still work on him. I put it out there for him. Let's see, we have-

We have Mishka. Mishka, Mishka, that oddly might be my favorite episode, really. He's the best. He's got stories for miles too. Oh, yeah. And he's very good at telling them. I wonder if I'm gonna have return guests, you know, like extra bad sinners.

And then also Melissa Fibos, who's this brilliant memoirist. She wrote Whipsmart, which is about being a dominatrix in New York for five years while she was high on heroin and an honor student at the New School all at the same time. Wow. You should have her on. She's an extraordinary writer. I was her middle school camp counselor for three years when she was growing up. That's how we know each other. I absolutely adore her. So yeah, I've got some fun. Teresa Timms, who's the Dean of the

Chapel at Princeton, she's on in a couple of weeks and she has this extraordinary story of going from just absolute poverty, abuse, neglect in Mississippi to like somehow being the Dean of the Chapel at Princeton. Like, I don't know, there's no map that can get you from there to there, you know, it's incredible story. That's cool. Yeah. Well, beautiful. You know, this is just a short segment.

I wanted to check in with you and see how you're doing and talk about your podcast, which I think is great. And everybody should subscribe to it, the confessional, but maybe we can close this out with some kind of blessing or wisdom for the people who are really struggling right now, trying to figure out how to get through this very odd moment that we're experiencing,

whether they're first responders, healthcare workers, people who have lost their jobs. I mean, there's a tremendous amount of suffering. And with that, of course, emotional and mental trauma that people are trying to gracefully navigate and are in desperate need of tools. Yeah. Well, I'll do that by borrowing somebody,

what someone else said, which I heard our friend Jason Flom interview one of the guys who was in the West Memphis Three, Damian Echols, who was wrongfully imprisoned as a teenager for a murder he didn't do. And he spent 18 years on death row. So Jason just interviewed him on wrongful conviction about, hey, what wisdom do you have, Damien, about how to not lose your shit when you're isolated and everything's been taken away? And the one thing Damien said at the beginning just stayed with me and it's counterintuitive. And he said, I realized that if I was going to keep from going crazy, I had to learn how

to not live for the future. And I think I stopped breathing when I heard him say that because what he meant was if I allowed my brain to think, am I going to get out? When am I going to get out? Is this ever going to be over? When's my execution date? Are they going to kill me in the future? Anything other than the day he was in, he would be miserable.

And so he said, all I could do was to live the best life I could live in the day he was in, he would be miserable. And so he said, all I could do was to live the best life I could live in the day I was in. And that, I think, has been really helpful, at least for me, because some days the best life I can live is to really not do anything but make sure I get fed that day. That was it, right? Some days it's tidying up and cleaning and checking in on people I think are having a hard time, right? That's going to vary. But what is the best life I can have in the day I'm in? Because look, none of us is promised another day.

None of us is promised another day. All we have is this one. I know that sounds trite, but I think this is the moment where we settle into the reality of that in the best way we possibly can. It's very Eckhart Tolle. Probably, I don't know, I've never read him. To be present in the moment that we're in.

Oh, you haven't? No, I know. That's surprising, I thought you would have read him. But simple and yet profound. And I think the fact that we're all being compelled to stop is forcing us to be present with ourselves. And that's uncomfortable also. Yeah.

Yeah. As my man Jesus said, don't worry about tomorrow. Tomorrow has worries of its own, you know. Don't worry about that. Yeah. That is its own thing and it's not right now, you know. So I just, I try and try and keep remembering that because I forget it a lot. Beautiful. Well, thank you for sharing.

Yeah. Well, thanks for the, for checking up on me. I, I appreciate it. You've been a huge supporter and you've, you really, I mean, you're, you really did help me get to where I'm at in terms of just taking my call and answering questions and offering support. It's really appreciated. Thanks. Well, my pleasure. I think that this medium is perfect for you and you've hit it out of the park with this show.

So again, everybody check it out, The Confessional. It's fantastic. And when this all lifts and we resume some version of normality, let's get together again and do another podcast in person. I'd love that. Cool. All right. Thanks, friend.

All right. Thanks, Nadia. Love you. All right. Bye-bye. She's the bomb, right? Okay. Back to Chris.

She's the bomb, right? Okay, back to Chris. So this is a conversation that was recorded way back at the end of January, which seems like a lifetime ago. And it was originally slated to air many weeks ago. But then the world suddenly changed, and it just didn't feel like the right moment to share this particular conversation. feel like the right moment to share this particular conversation, but it feels like now is the right moment because elections are around the corner, critical human rights will be cast across ballots, and so I felt compelled to momentarily interrupt this 24-7 pandemic news cycle to explore some different terrain because there is much at stake for many come November. So this is a conversation about those rights that are currently in play. Of course, it's about Chris's life, his transition, his trials, his tribulations,

but it's also about privileges of gender, race, and class, and Chris's courage to leverage his prowess as an athlete to set a precedent for those who will come after him and his quest to balance equal access to sports with a fair playing field. But more than anything, this is about what it's like to have your existence, your very existence up for debate and how our country is treating so many of its citizens as non-humans. Right now, 41% of trans youth attempt suicide.

So let's think about that for a minute. I mean, that is an absolutely horrific and devastating statistic. It's not right. It's got to change. And that change begins with education, begins with understanding, and ultimately compassion, which is what I'm trying to do here today. I'm grateful to share Chris's bravery and his vulnerability with all of you today, and I'm proud to be his ally and his friend. So here we are. This is me and Chris Mosher. All right, man. So this is, I think, three years in the making. Yeah. I first came across your story. I laugh every time I think about this. I first became familiar with you

through that November Project documentary when I was prepping to have Brogan on the show. And interestingly, Brogan, as he's want to do from time to time, sends me video messages, text messages, as I'm sure he does to you as well. So I got one of those today, sent him back a video and said that you were coming in.

And he said that you guys often have a chuckle because I brought you up in the course of that podcast, but I didn't say your name. And so we brushed up against the name drop, but it didn't actually happen. Yeah, I was super pumped because you had mentioned like that transgender athlete in the showing up video.

Maybe you didn't say that. I don't know what I said. And I think I tweeted you and said, I always almost mentioned. Yeah, sorry about that. Well, you know, maybe I'll go back and edit it, edit your name into that. And, you know, ever since that experience,

like I cottoned onto your story and I've been following everything that you've been doing ever since. And as I just mentioned to you before we even started, we have been endeavoring to try to make this happen for a long time. And I think experience has dictated that these things happen when they're supposed to happen.

And I think we're in a really interesting moment right now that makes the timing of this conversation, I think potentially much more impactful than it would have been previously. conversation, I think, potentially much more impactful than it would have been previously. Yeah. I think we're here in the right moment right now. Right. One thing that's been renting space in my head is, as you know, I had Kendra Little on the show a little while back and you tweeted like, oh, I'm so excited to hear this. on the show a little while back and you tweeted like, oh, I'm so excited to hear this. And then there was nothing after that. And I've been, so I've been like, you know, going, oh man, did I not handle that correctly? Did I misspeak or misstep? And so before we even get into your

story and all the many things I want to talk to you about. Like, how did that go for you? Was that, did I navigate that conversation appropriately given your, who you are and your perspective on all of this? Oh yeah, absolutely. So Kendra's story is Kendra's story. And I feel much better. Yeah, no, allow me to validate you. Listen, I always need the validation. No, no, I get it. I mean, I did set that up. Like I was going to say something else about it. I was like, I get it. I mean, I did set that up. Like I was going to say something else about it and probably got, I was like, I got nothing Olympic trials. And I was like, man,

I've been racking my head thinking like, where did I, did I go wrong there? Like I thought I handled it with kid gloves and yeah, you really didn't. And I think that's one of the things that I've always appreciated about you, Rich, is that I think that you come to these conversations with open heart and open mind to learn and to sort of tease out different things for your listeners. And so I was really happy with the way that that came off. And at the same time, it's very different. Intersex is not transgender. And there were things within there that aren't applicable to trans athletes, that aren't applicable to my story. And I get the next bit of time here with you to sort all that out. Yeah. And I think I said it in that conversation, but it bears repeating, which is that these things get conflated, intersex and

transgender, and they're very different things. Yeah, absolutely. And we're seeing a lot of conversations crossing, specifically at the elite level when we have Castro Semenya come up and international Olympic policy on transgender athletes, and it's not the same. So there's a lot to dive in there. Right. So first of all, congratulations on the Olympic trials. I know it didn't go as you wished it would have.

And also the New York Times piece that just came out. Amazing. Yeah, thank you. It's pretty crazy. And my favorite part of the New York Times article was the other race walker saying, was it harder to come out as a transgender athlete or as a race walker?

It was a very funny moment. Yeah, you know, it was funny because at that time I had not yet come out as a race walker. Right. For some reason. Yeah, I was like, wait, what? Like I read that, I didn't even know, like I've sort of been paying attention to you, but a little bit at arm's length. And so I wasn't even aware of that part of this whole thing. Yeah. And it was really vague. And I was intentionally vague about it in my social media, even after my first race and my first national championship that I kind of was really vague about it. And I think part of that was, I wasn't exactly sure how far I was going to go in this and how

seriously I was committing to it. And, you know, I was just trying to sort out my own sort of thoughts about it. But you were at the Olympic trials. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know? Yeah. It was amazing. I only know a few transgender people, but you're definitely the first race walker I've ever met. Yeah. And see, I think that's it. I wasn't ready to fully commit my identity to being that of a race walker because I'm so involved in the multi-sport community and already telling people I'm a do athlete. I have to explain that. Race walking goes straight to mall walking, which then

is a whole other conversation of communication. But I think it's awesome because it is, there are a lot of laughs associated with it. But I'll tell you, I think race walking is harder than running. Is it? Well, so the idea is at all times, one foot has to have contact with the,

or both feet have to be in contact with the pavement. One foot. One foot, yeah, of course. That would be really hard. You'd One foot, yeah, of course. That would be really hard. You'd be shuffling, I guess. Yeah, one foot. So how do you even develop that technique?

I mean, you just stumbled into this sport super recently and you've had this crazy ascension. Yeah, so I started in about May and suffered a knee injury within like 10 days of starting race walking. So I really started training in June and qualified or posted my time that got me into the trials in October and have been battling injury since then. So it's been a very short amount of time. You know, the movement is not natural.

And I think I said that a number of times in my race to myself, like no human is made to move like this unless you actually know the technique. And then, you know, these guys are flying who are posting up a 350 time for 50K walking. That's one foot on the ground. Yeah, that's pretty crazy.

It's a, yeah. It's a weird like hip jiggle thing. Yeah. Like how do you even learn that technique? I think I'm still working on ground. Yeah, that's pretty crazy. It's a, yeah. It's a weird like hip jiggle thing. Yeah. Like how do you even learn that technique? I think I'm still working on it. Yeah. And how do they police that over 50K? Like if somebody just started to break into a run in the middle of the race, there can't be judges all along the way, making sure that that foot is always making contact. Well, for perspective, so when I qualified, the first race I did, 50K, was a two-kilometer loop.

This race for the trials was a 1.25-kilometer loop with judges everywhere. I see. And it's sort of an out and back. And so the judges are looking on both sides. And since only 15 competitors compete in the Olympic trials, and then there was an invitational as well that started later, you know, it was very easy for them to keep eyes on everybody. If somebody does start to break form, there are warning paddles that come up,

you get three warnings, and then you have a time penalty. And then on the fourth warning, you are pulled from the race. I see. So how many were in the field at trials? 15 is the cap. That's it. Oh, so they only take 15. So it's not a time standard thing. It's 15, yep. There is a time standard.

And when people don't meet the time standard, then they fill the rest of the field to 15. I think that's the ideal. Wow, that's a pretty small group. It must be a pretty tight knit community. There just can't be that many people that are out doing this. Yeah.

I've been super pleased with how welcomed I've felt and have been in the race walking community. There were, you know, the guy who asked me if I came out as a race walker had heard about my story prior to showing up at the race. We chatted for about 30 kilometers of that race. And everyone, I just have the sense, like everyone wants to see me succeed. They want, you know, they want more people to join race walking. They want the word to get out. And yeah, it's really a tight knit community. and, you know, how that works within sports,

but really on sports overall in general, like it's, it's really remarkable the, the level of advocacy that you shoulder and the extent to which you really have created change. It's really something. So I want to explore all of that, but let's contextualize it by taking it back and hearing the superhuman origin story. Yeah. I grew up playing girls and women's sports. So I was assigned female at birth, was raised and socialized as a little girl and grew up playing girls and women's sports. I was a three sport all conference athlete in high school. Grew up in suburbs of Chicago. Suburbs of Chicago until about high school and then moved up to Wisconsin.

Yeah. You know, going from a large suburb, large school to a class of 25 students, you know, it was shocking, but that's what you do there. You play sports. And so it was season to season to season. And that's how- So just the traditional sort of basketball, baseball kind of thing? Yeah, volleyball, basketball, softball. Right.

You know, that was life. Yeah. And that was how I made friends. That was how I found my community there. And really at that time, you know, I didn't even have the word transgender on my radar when I was a young person. I didn't know anybody in high school who identified as lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, or queer in a very small school.

Ninety-nine students in the high school in total. Wow. And it's 300 from K through 12. They've actually shut down the school because there are so few people who are up there. And, you know, it doesn't allow for a lot of diversity. And so this was really not on my radar. And what I knew about the queer community, about the trans community was what I saw on TV. And at that time, you know, this is- Not a lot. Maury Povich and Jerry Springer. And they were not positive representations or accurate representations of what it means to be trans.

And in most cases, I was only seeing transgender women in movies or on reality TV. And this was like pre-L Word probably even. Yeah. And I actually never, I didn't have that channel, whatever it was. Not a big TV person. Right, I didn't have that channel, whatever it was, and I'm not a big TV person. Right. So I missed all of that. And sort of socially, like how was that?

I mean, you've said, you know, that you had a sense that you were different that dates back to as early as you being four, right? Yeah. So how did that translate in terms of how you kind of navigated your social life throughout junior high and high school? I think my plan was to make myself as busy as possible so that no one really got a chance to know me. I was too busy. Moving target. Yeah, absolutely. But I was friends with everybody. You know, people in high school and college would call me a social butterfly that I could go to any of the different friend groups or cliques and fit in well, and then back out and go somewhere else. And I really think that was a strategy, not only to not allow other people to get to know me, but so that I didn't have to spend the time really thinking about who I was as a

person and thinking about myself. And as long as you were out on the field, like it was a comfortable place where you felt like you were accepted? Yeah, always. I mean, I think from my earliest memories were from sports and from fitting in and finding friends because I was a good athlete, a great teammate and a good leader. And, you know, my willingness to sacrifice for the team is always a positive part of being a teammate. And so that was a really easy place for me to fit in and to find out more about myself. You know, right now I would say, even as an adult, all of the things that I love about myself in terms of my values and my work ethic, you know, and my thought process and how I communicate with other people, you know, my

perspective on winning and losing, goal setting, all of that comes from those very early lessons that I learned in sport. Yeah, and it seems like that sensibility was allowed you to kind of transcend whatever, you know, sense of difference that you felt or may have, you know, been perceived to have by your classmates and your teammates because you were such a good team member, that like took care of everything else, right? And made it okay. Yep, and that was my solution for that feeling that I had that I didn't quite fit in. It was already hard enough going to that small school

from suburb of the city and dressing differently. And I was listening to different music and had different fashion sense and interests. And And I was listening to different music and had different fashion sense and interests. And, you know, when I'm there with them, it was like a two-year time gap where it was my end of sophomore year before people started to listen to what I was listening to or dress the way I was dressing. And so I just felt that I was so out of place there. But sports and that common goal of wanting to succeed as a team was really what grounded me in that community. Yeah. Was it a sense that you were just a tomboy

initially? Yeah, I think so. But I think just because I didn't have the language or the terminology to assign to it, I knew I wasn't like my brother. So I have a brother who's a year and a half younger than me. And growing up, I knew that I wasn't like him. And I also knew that people didn't treat me the way that they treated him or give me the same opportunities that they gave him. And so I felt that difference. But also when I looked at the girls in my class, I knew that I wasn't like them. And I had just hindsight is so interesting because there are all these moments where it all lines up for me. Every single, you know, part of my childhood of what I was interested in and how I behaved. And, you know, I have all of these memories of adults telling me, you can't do this because little girls don't do this.

You can't dress like this. You can't play this sport. You shouldn't act like this. And every part of me felt that was authentic expression. And I wasn't learning that from other places. It was just truly who I was. Right. And short of sports, I would suspect that that would be, you know, it had to be lonely, right? Feeling like you didn't fit into either of those categories, lonely, right? Feeling like you didn't fit into either of those categories, sports being the refuge, but short of sports, you can begin to see why somebody who's having a similar experience to you would start to develop, you know, depression and other kind of mental, you know, problems

around that, that feeling of isolation and distance. Yeah. And I think that's a very common thing that we hear with not just queer athletes, trans athletes, but the LGBTQ plus community in general is that there are so many of us who feel like we are the only ones going through this experience. And I think it's really that feeling. And I can't say in high school that I really felt that

because I did such a good job of putting my energy into sports, into extracurricular activities, the yearbook and the newspaper and photography and extra jobs and anything that I could do to keep myself from having to spend that time of feeling loneliness and discomfort and disconnection. But looking back, that was all false.

It was all false connections. It wasn't real authentic because I didn't want people to seem the real me. I didn't want people to seem the real me. I didn't want people to really get to know the real me because I had received messages for 10 years at that point that who I was as a person was not okay. And it was not the way that I was supposed to be. Yeah. And I don't think that really changed my life. But the sports part is authentic, right?

I mean, on some level, it's a mask, right, to keep people at bay. Oh, yeah. But it was really true love for me. Yeah. It's where I felt most like myself. So you graduate from high school, you go to Northern Michigan University. Yep.

I'm from Michigan. Where is Northern Michigan University? It's in the UP, it's in Marquette. Oh, wow. Yeah, all the way up. Oh my goodness. Yeah, yeah. That is, I mean, you went from a small school in Wisconsin

to like an incredibly isolated community up there, right? Yeah, I did. And- Probably not a lot of diversity up there. Yeah, except for the athletes. And that was really one of the things is that that was, except for the athletes, there wasn't a lot of diversity,

but that's more racial diversity. There wasn't a lot of diversity in terms of LGBTQ plus acceptance either. And it also points to the time period. People just weren't really talking about that when I was in college. And we're talking 1998 to 2003, five wonderful years in Michigan, that people just weren't talking about it. And it was a very different time. So how do you begin to piece this together for yourself and start to own your identity?

It didn't happen when I was there. In hindsight, again, looking back, my dream was to play college basketball. And I had hopes of going to college and playing and having my name on the back of a jersey and, you know, having that athletic experience. And when the time came to make a decision, I had so many different excuses and chose not to play basketball. What do you mean excuses? Like you were afraid or? Oh, absolutely. But, but how that, how that came out was, you know, I'm a first generation college student. No one

in my family has ever gone to school and navigating that process to even go to school was a challenge for me. And I knew that there was a huge investment, not just of my own money, but also of my time and, you know, my family's energy. And so I knew I'd have to pay for school myself and thought, okay, I'm not getting a scholarship. I'm going to have to have jobs. So I can't be an athlete and pay for school at the same time. And I thought, this is a huge investment in myself and I wanna get a great job after college.

And if I'm not paying attention to my academics, that's not gonna happen. Yeah, yeah, yeah. How were your folks growing up? In what way? Well, in the sense of raising you, there must have been some idea that you were a bit askew from a traditional notion of what they probably expected

their daughter to look like at that time, right? Yeah. So how have they navigated that whole thing? Yeah, it's interesting. I've never really had a conversation with my mom about this. And I think that when I finally understood my identity, I was terrified to tell her.

She raised me as a single parent. Dad left the picture in and out from the age of eight. And he is still around, but we haven't been in communication for about 15, 20 years maybe. And it was not related to my identity. At that time, I didn't know I was trans and I wasn't out as queer. But for my mom, I think when I did come out as trans, I think she would have been more surprised if I said I was gonna wear a dress the next day than to kind of tell her and explain to her

what transgender identity meant. But I was raised in a very loving household and she encouraged me to play sports. Despite my injuries, when I was a kid, I often heard like, you were not meant to play sports, you know, with I was a kid, I often heard like you were not meant to play sports, you know, with a twisted ankle or bruised ribs or whatever. But, you know, I felt like I had full support from her to participate in sports. In terms of how I showed up in the world, I think that I definitely didn't line up with the vision of what she had for a

little girl. And, you know, whether that was going to clothing shopping at the start of the school year and me wanting to go to the boys section and her saying, come over here. Or people in stores saying your son and her correcting them and saying, that's my daughter. You know, I think that that, I can only guess, probably brought up a lot of things for her. But you haven't really fully fleshed it out with her? Yeah, have not. Yeah. Because it's like, it's just too sensitive, you think? Yeah.

And I think that there's a lot of things that have been unsaid between the two of us. And when I came out, she was so incredibly supportive. It was, I was terrified to tell her and delayed telling her because I didn't want it to be like, you know, um, Oh, Thanksgiving. That's when Chris came out as a man, right? Like I didn't want it to be attached to a holiday. I'm not seeing her all the time. Um, and really wanted to make sure that I expressed to her how important this was, how significant this is and how real this is for me. And, you know, she's the one who named me. And so, you know, I thought like, you know, she had a daughter and

two sons and now she has three sons and that changes things for her. That's a transition for her as well. And how she talks in her small community about, you know, when people come back and don't know and say, how's your daughter, You know, what is the response to that? So I'm very aware that there are challenges for her to deal with that I will never know things about. Things are changing though. They've changed quite a bit. I mean, I feel like the permissiveness and the education piece to all of this has grown so much. And just the word transgender and the kind of acceptance that we're seeing in certain parts of America

and the world is so much more than, obviously there's a long way to go here. But it is interesting that this is being talked about in a way that is unprecedented. I'm older than you. I'm trying really hard to not be like the okay boomer guy here. But it's a lot different now than it was, you know, when you were growing up and certainly when I was growing up. And I'm interested in why you think, like, this moment is happening now. Yeah, visibility is a powerful tool for social change. And the more visibility that we have, the more awareness is created. And it's really been interesting since I came out in 2010,

came out publicly in the Advocate magazine, New York Times article shortly after. And that was sort of what, you know, stepped me into this public identity as an out trans man, which is a decision that you only make one time with the internet, right? I'm forever the transgender athlete. It had to be a hard decision. It was incredibly hard. Yeah, it was a very challenging decision because part of me just wanted to go somewhere and live the life that I knew that I was meant to live,

to switch jobs, switch communities, and just like be the dude that I wanted to be. But your interest in sport and your desire to be this, you know, elite, you know, professional athlete kind of mandated that you be somewhat public about it because you would have to change your classification and there was gonna have to be, you know, like to change your name and then that classification

when you're kind of moving your way up the ranks in triathlon and people knew who you were prior, that's gonna require some public visibility. Yeah. But I think even more than that, it really wasn't about that. I thought that I was going to lose sport. And when I knew my identity, when I knew that I was trans, I waited over a year and a half to actually come out because I was terrified of losing my ability to compete. When I finally made that decision to publicly come out, what it really was was I didn't want anybody else

to feel the way that I felt, to feel like there was no place in sport for them, that there was nobody that they could look to and see a possibility or a reflection of themselves. When I was thinking about transition, I didn't see any trans men competing with men. And more than that, I didn't see transgender athletes in general. I mean, I'm not the first transgender athlete. I'm

not the first public trans athlete, but there was a big gap between other out trans athletes and my coming out in 2010. Right. All right, well, going back, you're at Northern Michigan, you're hustling multiple jobs, doing that whole thing, and you make the decision to not play basketball, but how do you find your way back into sports? So I had a job in the student center serving food. And one day the college mascot walked in with the cheerleading team.

And I looked at my coworker and said, I'm gonna do that. And I think- What's the Northern Michigan mascot? It's Wildcat Willie. Okay. Wildcat Willie. So I bring this up because I got my NCAA division one letter in cheerleading, which I think is hilarious.

That is good. Because I did a year and a half as the mascot. And while people might say that's not a very athletic part, you know, I was working out with the cheerleading team, going to practices and going to games. But all of it was done in this really safe way where I was in full costume behind a gigantic mask. Did anyone know who the mascot was? Did they know it was you? The other mascots in the cheerleading team. My college roommate didn't know for a very long time.

Yeah, in the internet age, that probably wouldn't be possible. Yes, correct. But at that time it was top secret and sort of that Disneyland mentality, you never have the head off. And for me, that was really, it was awesome because I got to connect with people in that college environment, in that sports environment. And everybody wants to take a picture with the mascot. And I, in reflecting, saw that that was one of the only times I smiled

in photos at that time period in my life was when I was in a mask and no one could see me because I felt like I didn't want to be seen outside of that. Like even for me now, I don't look back at old photos and I don't post old photos. I, you know, uh, that was a very painful time for me. And I couldn't have expressed that. I think outwardly at that time, I couldn't put words to my pain, but looking back on it, I know that, um, you know, I was hurting and I didn't know why. Yeah. It's, it's life meets metaphor, right? Like you were literally inside a costume. Yeah. So that you could be in the world and yet not be seen.

Yeah, and I felt the most comfortable there. And, you know, Wildcat Willie is a born Wildcat. It's crazy. It's almost like your subconscious chose that. Yeah, and I think my subconscious chose quite a few things that all line up for me now. Like what else? You know, I think just the way that I navigated sports and that, you know, in college used to

come back to how did I participate after I chose not to play basketball because there's basketball and then there's women's basketball. And for me, it was that I didn't feel like being on the women's team fit me. And I couldn't say that, but that's, you know, I didn't feel like being on the women's team fit me. And I couldn't say that, but I didn't want to go into a women's locker room. I didn't want to be a part of a group where people are saying, hey, ladies, let's go girls. I chose to do intramural sports and participate in anything that was co-ed, anything that I could show up already in my clothes and not have to use a locker room and, you know, be out there with other people, but not have to be on that gendered team. Right. It lets you off the hook of having to answer that question or even have to deal with any of that. Yeah. And that's really how I got into running after school as well,

was that that was something that I could do straight from my door to go out and not have to interact with people. And eventually when I did want to compete, that I could do that, but in an individual way, as opposed to being a part of a gendered team. Right. Were you fast right away when you started running? No. No?

No. No, I don't think so. Really? Yeah, I think I really had to work for it. So the way that I got into running was in my last year of school, I had two mini strokes. Oh, wow. I didn't know that. Yeah. And so I suffered a lot of health issues in that last fifth year of college. Strokes in college. That's very unusual. Yeah. And it was one of these things that now,

when I talk about it, I wish that I had the understanding of health and, you know, what it means to be healthy and take care of yourself, because I just wasn't asking the right questions at that time. And, you know, again, looking back, part of me probably didn't care if something bad happened to me. And I never felt like I was depressed and I never really felt like I was isolating myself, but I certainly was. And, you know, that sort of physical manifestation of the stress I was feeling and, you know, whatever else caused that was really what sort of put me on this path of wanting to see how far I could push my body. this path of wanting to see how far I could push my body. And that was sort of when I came back into run, started into running after that was seeing a Chicago marathon banner

when I was in the city and saying, I'm gonna do that. You know, me not being able to run a quarter mile at that point, saying that that's what I wanna work on. But holding out this aspiration, like this is potentially, you know potentially a way forward for me. So was there like a level of self-sabotage with your health or was it just kind of harboring all of that stress, whether it was unconscious or conscious,

that dissonance between true identity and how you were making choices about how to navigate the world that you think precipitated, like the strokes and these health problems that you were having? It was absolutely self-sabotage. Yeah. And, you know, it just, it didn't manifest for me in cutting or, you know, self-harm like that. You know, I think it was that I wasn't sleeping and I wasn't eating well and I wasn't drinking water. And I was really stressing myself out, trying not to think about myself and my identity

and how I fit in in this world. And I think there's something about being faced with being on the edge of your freshman year of life. You hit that final year of school and say, all of this identity that I have here as a student leader, as a student athlete, as a person who works here or does this activity, community service, whatever, all of that is going to go away. And when I leave here, I'm going to have a piece of paper and what? And I did not put time into that what? And that was a very frightening situation

to be in knowing that the end was near of school and that I would have to figure all of this out. So you had no sense of what you wanted to do after college? I had no job lined up. I had no home lined up. And my now wife, who I was kind of off and on seeing, but I wouldn't admit that I liked her, sent me a key to her apartment in LA. And seven days before graduation, I get this key in the mail and says, we can be roommates. I packed my car after school and drove over here with no job,

no idea of what I would do. And you met your wife in college, right? Yeah, she was visiting a friend. Oh, so she wasn't a fellow student. Yeah. Gotcha. Yeah. So you came here.

See, I thought you went to New York after college. You came here. Yeah, I came here, lived in Koreatown and then Venice and then moved to Chicago for graduate school. Right. And what did you study in graduate school? I studied higher education. Did you?

Yeah, I just had such a great sort of like saved by the bell experience when I was in college in terms of my activities and, you know, being a part of different groups and organizations. I said that the other day to a group of students in college and they had no idea what saved by the bell was. So I feel like maybe I need to change that reference. But, you know, I had a really great experience being in the student newspaper and the yearbook and the radio and all of that. And I sort of felt like I had an art degree and that's I got a graphic design degree. I was working in a newspaper in Santa Monica as an art director and just didn't love the deadline life.

And I thought, you know, that is probably around the time where I had this sort of calling to give back to other people. And I thought that was the best way for me to give back would be to go and work at a college and allow other students to have the experience that I had. Right. So this is early 2000s, 2003 or four, something like that. Yep. Yep. That's right. And so meanwhile, running or what's going on sports wise? Yeah, running here, nothing organized, just running along the beach and the boardwalk. And I think also trying to come back to my health after the mini strokes and then being put on painkillers and struggling and grappling with what that meant for me. And I was never addicted to painkillers,

but I certainly don't think I was using them appropriately. And I think part of that was self-soothing. I wasn't drinking, I wasn't doing drugs. It works that way initially. Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. And I think I saw that in myself because my dad was an alcoholic and I've always been very conscious

and aware of relationship to that sort of distancing of my reality, I guess. Well, you can't put on the mascot costume anymore. Yeah. So what else are you going to put in front of you to, you know, to kind of mute that noise or create a little buffer between you and the world? Yeah. And my time here, which was about a year and a half, was really trying to figure that out before I went to grad school. I really struggled because how do you make friends as an adult? It was something that I didn't really think about, but I made all my friends in my residence hall or in my organizations or in my sports groups that when I came here with no one aside from Jen, you know, I just didn't know what to do.

And so- Yeah, and LA can be very lonely in that way. Yeah. You know, it's really hard to connect with people here, I think. Yeah, but I think that that was the time period where I started to put the pieces together. And a lot of that was due to my relationship with Jen,

that when we would go out, people would see us as a lesbian couple. And that word never resonated with me. Right. Um, I can't blame them though. Yeah, no, no, no. Yeah. Yeah. And I think there's something about, you know, people want to assign labels to people and, you know, think about bisexual identity. When we see someone, uh, you know, a man in relationship with a man, we never assume he's bisexual. People just say, oh, he's gay. So there's complexity to our relationships that aren't always accurately labeled. When people would say that or I have some distinct memories of people saying, hey, ladies to us.

And me just feeling like, you know, it didn't sit well with me. It felt wrong and it had a very physical reaction for me. And I think that was the, you know, the first parts of really having to put it together and figure it out. And, you know, in hindsight, I can say the reason that didn't fit was that

I didn't identify as a woman. Right. And so- And did, did Jen, that's how you say her name? Is that, I mean, how is she, you know, was she aware of this at the time? Like, here's, this is what's amazing. Like, so Jen has been with you throughout this entire thing, right? You guys are married. You met her, you know, prior to transitioning and all of that. And she's been kind of like the steady constant in all of this. But on some level, I suspect she must have, I mean, did you guys have conversations

about this? Or like, was she, what was her awareness level in terms of, you know, what you were struggling with? Yeah, I think I have blinked out on a big part of this. And I'm sure my explanation and experience is very different than her perspective on it. You know, initially when I started talking about our relationship and about my transition, I would say transition is a transition for everybody, right? So like how my relationship might change with my mom, right? So it changes her view and her position to me and how she talks about me. And it was never like that for Jen. You know, she fell in love with me as a person. And we had this amazing experience of getting to

know each other sort of through written word, through messaging and through letters and things like that, like super old school. And I think that we got a different sense of who each other were. And so I think that she always knew that there was something about me. And I think that when she started to see my own discomfort in those situations when we're out in public or when we're together, you know, that's really what prompted her, I assume, to say to me, you know, I think that you need to put some time and energy into thinking about your identity. And that's really how I was sort of, you know, gently guided in the right direction of actualizing and talking about it and figuring it out. Right. That's very unique and amazing. Yeah. And to have her throughout this process, I mean, I think a lot of-

I would imagine most people don't have somebody like that when they're dealing with this kind of thing. Yeah, I think so. And I think that that is a real fear for people in our community to say like, there are so many things out there. There are house bills and policies and laws that say that we don't deserve love and respect,

that we don't deserve protections and equal rights. And so to have somebody who not only loves me and respects me and protects me, but also is here for me to grow and encouraging me to grow and just to be my best, most authentic self. That's a really amazing gift. Yeah, not just someone who is understanding, but also encouraging you, like pushing you in that direction. Yeah. And I never felt pushed and I never felt forced and I never felt like there was no force behind it. It was gentle guiding. Like she had more information than I had.

She had more information about the queer community. She had been around more people, had more diversity in her life. And so I think it was really awesome that she was able to see that I was struggling or however she would phrase it and to sort of point me in the direction of books and magazine articles and things I should watch on YouTube or-

So she was living out here, but where is she from? Chicago. Chicago. So more like urban metropolitan upbringing. Yeah. She snatches this person from Northern Michigan and, you know, rural Wisconsin. It's like, I'm gonna like, you know, edify this person.

I don't think that was it. I was not a project for her. But I would imagine like, listen, if you're in an intimate relationship and you're not, you know, authentically who you are, there's going to be a barrier to intimacy, right? Because you're not a fully integrated person. Yeah. If you're like kind of walking around in the world feeling disconnected because you're not sure who you are or you're supposed to be. Or maybe you do, but you're afraid to be that person. Yeah. And I think that that's what was so magical about her and remains magical about her is that her, is her encouragement for me to

figure that out and to be my best, most integrated, authentic self to, so that we can have a deeper and more meaningful relationship. So you guys go to Chicago together when you go to grad school? She went to New York for grad school and I went to Chicago. So it was a year apart. Long distance kind of thing for a while. Yep. Yeah.

And then at some point you did move to New York though, right? Yes. You lived there for a while? I know you've been in Chicago and New York, but I don't know the timeline on all that. Yeah, one year of graduate school in Chicago. And then I got an internship at Cornell University in New York and gotten a job opportunity shortly after. Decided to skip my second year of grad school and take this amazing opportunity in New York where I would live rent-free for the duration of my time there.

That's not bad. Not bad. Yeah. Yeah. Well, a world must have opened up to you when you got to New York City. You know, it didn't, it didn't. And it was really interesting that even in, um, there was this awareness that there were more people potentially in the world, like me and like us, like more queer people. And I remember seeing at that time, so say 2005, 2006, uh, you know, two men holding hands in the street and being like, oh, wow.

Like it was on my radar, right? And it would ping for me when I would see same-sex couples or queer families. And that was a different experience, but it wasn't close enough to me. And what I mean by that is even in being there, I didn't know any trans people in real life, almost all the way up until my transition. There were very few and no one that I had that I felt like I could go to and ask questions and sort of bounce ideas off of, or even be close enough to get a sense of what that meant for them. So walk me up to the ep know, the epiphany that,

you know, this is the person that you're meant to be and then the actions that you then take to kind of make that happen. I mean, I'm sure it was a lot of things leading up to it, right? But I remember distinctly watching YouTube videos for hours, hours and hours of people documenting their transition. So it was people, mostly young people, mostly white people, mostly college age or younger, who would go through and just have weeks and weeks and years of videos of like documenting what coming out was like, what getting hormones was like, the changes that they're experiencing on testosterone and all of that. I remember really diving into all of the materials that were available online at that time. And at the same time, trying to figure out within myself and sort of in my relationship, how I could exist in this world and fully be me.

Because it was such a challenge at that time to leave my house every day. I mean, it really got to the point where, let's say I felt like a video game character and would leave on full power. And then it'd be like, hey ladies, or where's Chris, have you seen her? And my power meter would go down and down and down. And by the end of the day,

I felt like a shell of a person. I would recharge and go out into the world and down and down. And by the end of the day, I felt like a shell of a person. I would recharge and, you know, go out into the world and do it again. And it didn't feel like a good way to exist. And were you dressing in a more masculine way at that time? Always. You know, I've always been masculine of center, I'd say. And, you know, when I actually did come out, not much about me changed except my pronouns. I mean, it was really like I had been living as myself for a very long time. It was more the mirror and the reflection of how other people in the world saw me and treated me and responded to me. Right.

And around this time, you start getting into triathlon though, right? That was when you were in New York? Yeah. And you start competing, you start competing as a woman. Yeah. So I did do the marathon, worked my way up in New York City races and did a marathon, did an ultra marathon, 60K around Central Park and did not want to do a 50 or 100 miler. Thought, what's the next challenge?

And this going back to the mini strokes is really that mindset of like, how far can I push myself? The training and the racing, mostly the training was a way for me to focus that energy and sort of do what I did when I was a kid of like feeling most like myself in sport. I bought a bike, taught myself how to swim, did my first triathlon and won.

You won your first triathlon? I won my group. Won your age group? I was too embarrassed to tell people. Yeah, sprint. Too embarrassed to tell people because it was in the women's category. And that was sort of like a moment of saying, okay, like sport, which I love so much and who I am as a person have intersected here. And I'm having a real challenge, a real challenging time talking about it with other people. Yeah. Like this

boiling point where it's no longer tolerable for you to kind of, you know, manage this duality. Yeah. And I think with that awareness, it was heightened because then I would be at the starting line of races and, you know, in triathlons, they often separate the waves. And so I'd be in the pink cap with the women standing there and having people look at me, you know, and my inner monologue is they're wondering why I'm here. And I could hear some of them saying like, why is that person here? And I just didn't fit the mold of a typical woman, what they expected you to look like? Yeah. I think I've always presented masculinely. I've always had that energy about me and people could pick up on it. Right. So when does the decision arise then to begin the transition?

know, begin the transition. Yeah. The moment was my birthday when I was turning 29. And for years leading up to that, my wife and I would have a private dinner at home, usually some Thai takeout, real low key, because I didn't feel worthy of celebrating. I didn't feel like I was worthy of people knowing my birthday. And for so many years, I wouldn't tell people. I wouldn't even tell people the month. Like I didn't, we wouldn't talk astrological signs because I didn't want you to figure out when my birthday was because I was just so uncomfortable. It is.

Yeah, I mean, it really is sad. And I love my birthday now. And I also celebrate my tea day. So I feel like I get, I'm making up for it. I'm doing double celebrating. But I didn't feel like I should be celebrated or people should pay attention to me. And so we had this small private thing that we did.

And in New York, we decided to go out to a restaurant on my birthday one year. And we went to this, you know, dimly lit, crowded, very loud Mexican restaurant on the Lower East Side. And, you know, I could eat the chips and salsa off the table next to me. It was packed tight. The waiter came up and I think that they said, hey, ladies, can I take your order? And I ordered and then started to cry. And that to me was shameful. I grew up in a household that was, you know, suck it up. Don't, you know, like, don't cry.

Don't be emotional. And was taught to really suppress that. And then as an athlete, it's even elevated more where you're not supposed to show pain. Don't show weakness. Well, you had been suppressing it for a long time. For so long. And this was really the breaking point. I mean, it's amazing to think that this one person

saying what they would say to any table, right? And that's what broke me. I made my way out of the restaurant and spilled onto the street, crying on the sidewalk in New York City. New York, nobody cares. So people were flying by. Just another crying person.

Just another crumbled soul on the sidewalk. Broken street of dreams out here. And that's really what it was. And cabs whizzing by. And I mean, it was just like, I felt invisible and that's how I wanted to feel. When we finally got our food and took the trip back home, took it to go. And I mean, this had been 30 minutes or longer than I, that I've just been inconsolable. And when I finally could talk, the only thing that I could say was, I never thought my life would be like this. Like I couldn't imagine living another year as that person in that body, in this life, having navigated the experiences that I navigated to that point and having people respond to me in the way that they

had been. And that was the decision of like, I have to do this. And if it means I'm going to lose sport, then that's what it means because it's more important for me to be comfortable in the 95% of my life when I'm not training, you know, or racing than to hold on to this idea that I could be the athlete that I hoped I could always be as a woman. Or just face those fears of like, what will my mom say? What will my boss say? And my coworkers and, you know, the 500 students that were living in my building. And, you know, like I felt like a lot of pressure of worrying about other people's expectations. And the great irony, of course, is that when you summon the courage

to face all of those things and the fear about not being able to continue to compete as an athlete and take the action to become a more fully integrated, self-actualized person in alignment with how you see yourself in the world, your world has exploded. Not only have you been allowed to compete,

you've had success that I'm sure you could have never, you know, even predicted at that time. Yeah. It's crazy. It really is. And, you know, all of that energy that I was putting into hiding who I was, all of that energy that I was putting into worrying about what you would think or what anybody else would think about me, whether it was at the starting line of a race or at my workplace or at home or whatever, all of that energy, I was able to put into being who I truly am. I was able to put that into my racing, into my training and, and, you know, eliminate all of those distractions. And it really opened up an entirely new world for me. Yeah. It must've been cathartic. Yeah. And it continues to be. I continue to have moments where I'm surprised that this is my life. And in some ways it's because I'm surprised I'm still alive.

Yeah. You know, I, I, just in that I didn't have plans for what I would do after graduation. I never saw myself getting married. You know, I never saw myself having a family or, you know, having three amazing bunnies at home out there that you could mimic, right? There was no precedent and no idea of what that would look like for yourself. Yeah, and so to be in a position where I can be that for younger version of me and for other people is really incredible. Yeah. So the transition for you involved basically getting on testosterone, right? And was there, you know, walk me through like, you know, all right, now I'm going to put on my OK Boomer hat. Like walk me through like what transition means because I know it takes various forms for different people.

Yeah, so transition, there's not just one way to transition and there's not just, there's no correct way to transition. It looks different for everyone and I am a case study of one. Um, so what my experience looked like was first making a social transition, a social transition can be changing name, pronoun, restrooms that you use, uh, manners, mannerism, style of dress, things like that. Um, the second part of a transition may include, and it doesn't have to be second, just different category, is medical transition. And so that would be maybe gender affirming surgeries,

top surgery, lower surgery, hysterectomy, things like that, or taking testosterone treatment for me or cross hormone therapy. And sometimes like vocal therapy might fall under that sort of medical thing. And then there's a legal transition. So that would be changing legal documents, like a driver's license, ID, passport, social security, birth certificate. So those are the three different categories or buckets of transition. And people's paths look different. or buckets of transition and, you know, people's paths look different. Mine was initially, so I think it's important to say, I never felt like I was born in the wrong body or trapped in the

wrong body. That was not a part of my experience. It is a very valid experience for many trans people. Yeah. That seems to be like the sort of catch-all that, you know, I would have thought like, well, that's, that's the, that's the experience, right? That's the universal experience. Yeah. It's not. And it's not, no, it's not. And, you know, I think that, um, it certainly, that was the messages that I got when I was younger about trans people was you're trapped in the wrong body. Um, for me, it was really very specifically, I just did not like my chest. I did not like having breasts. And that was the one part of me that when I thought about future me as a kid, funny story, I had a drawing on my closet when I was about eight, nine, 10,

11 years old from a muscle and fitness magazine that was just a torso from like shoulders to waist of a dude's six pack. And it was on my closet, like not like lusting over it, but like, I'm going to have that. And that was the vision that I had for myself that I would, that I would have that, you know, flat chest and six pack abs. Well, you got it, buddy. I do now. It was a long road, but you made it happen. It was an unconventional path, but yeah. And, you know, so that for me was the first thing. And I thought maybe if I have top surgery, which would be, for me, it was a double mastectomy.

And maybe if I did that, that I would not, maybe I would be good there. I think part of me was dragging my feet and really trying not to fully commit to transition because I was just worried about existing in the world. So I thought that I could have top surgery, have a flat chest. And I had been binding my chest

for about a year and a half before that when I had the realization that I was trans. So a binder is a compression garment, super tight and just flattens out the chest. And it was incredibly uncomfortable, difficult to breathe in, sweaty and gross. And I thought that having top surgery may fix my discomfort with myself.

At the same time, I thought maybe I would be okay with people saying he sometimes and she sometimes. So I didn't fully commit to a pronoun transition until I had that birthday moment. And even then it happened in stages for me, you know, first with family and friends, other friends and my teammates, and then at work much later. And then I started testosterone. After I had top surgery, I realized that I was still not showing up in the world the way that I saw myself. And that was the final step for me.

And when you start taking testosterone, how long does it take before you start to see changes? And what is that experience like? Yeah, changes happen slowly over time. And I think it's really funny because the YouTube videos that I've watched, I had known sort of what was going to happen. And so there is this sense of like being so excited about change that, you know, I'm like, are my hands getting bigger? Like,

do I have, you know, like examining for facial hair or whatever? Um, it took about a year for me to sort of settle into, um, how I, how I felt on testosterone and sort of start to see the, the changes, um, which, you, which you can see in comparison photos, but I wasn't seeing every day because I'm seeing myself every day. And I'm sure there's like an emotional transition of acclimating to these changes. And also, what was it like?

Like, did you experience differences in like how you felt in your body? Like, did you experience differences in like how you felt in your body? Like, did your energy change or like how, you know, what is it? I mean, I'm trying to imagine that experience. Yeah, it felt very different in my skin. I think part of it was in March, I had top surgery and then had the recovery from that. So when I could finally lift my arms and move around, it was mid-April. And then June was when I started testosterone.

So I was already in this new body sort of trying to figure things out. When I started testosterone, it wasn't like the next day people started calling me he all the time. So that was a challenging thing of like, I felt like that wasn't day one, but it was day one of testosterone

of like really starting the changes for me. And so it was significant, but to that point for years, people were calling me he sometimes and she sometimes. And over time, I realized that I was becoming increasingly more comfortable with the he and increasingly uncomfortable with people saying she or not knowing.

And I wanted to make that shift, but in those first couple of months, it wasn't automatic. And so then there was something that I did and that I think a lot of trans people did and do is like, what am I doing wrong to make you not see me the way that I see myself? So there was a lot of self-criticism and critique and trying to figure out how to show up in the world in a way that would allow you to call me he. So I think it was an interesting thing of like not just – So you're taking responsibility for that rather than like I'm demanding that you call me by this pronoun. Yeah, and I did that and I did demand people and I had great allies who helped me because it's really uncomfortable to correct other people consistently about my pronoun for me, you know, to show up and say,

like, actually, Rich, it's he, right? Like that is, I'm doing something wrong for you not to see me in that way. And that's the way that I expressed that and took that. So I had a really hard time navigating that period of time where I felt like I was becoming more of myself and people weren't quite there with me. And so it was a lot of like, you know, how, I think it caused a social transition for me in a way that I backed down from later on. So what I mean by that is I knew what was going to happen physically. I had a sense of what it might be like to come out at work and with my family. And the thing that people didn't talk about was male privilege and what it would be like to show up in the world as a man and what people look to for masculinity. and in sort of, you know, there's a right way and a wrong way

to express masculinity or there's, I think particularly in sports, right? We preference a certain type of masculinity even within cisgender men. And so I was trying to figure out like, I don't think I went hyper-masculine and I didn't start to show up like that, but I think I wasn't fully authentic. You had to try on a bunch of dude hats to figure out which kind of dude you were going to be. Absolutely. Is that what you're

saying? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you for articulating that in that way. I think that was really it. I dumbed it down to like. Yeah. I think that really was it, that for so long I had been. Man isn't one thing, right? You know, in that idea, like the idea, well, like you had projected into the future, like I wanna be male, I wanna be a man, but maybe hadn't figured out what that meant specifically, like what kind of man suited you. Is that what you're saying?

Yeah, and I think that it was that I, it wasn't even that I was like, I want to be a man and that there's this image of man, right? It was like, I want to feel more like myself and I want people to see me as me. And I found that over time that saying he and existing in male spaces was more comfortable. Right. I got you. Yeah. Okay. existing in male spaces was more comfortable. Right, I got you. Yeah.

Okay, so as this is going on, you're still training for triathlons and all of that, right? And there's probably a lot of paperwork you gotta fill out. Yeah. Right, to like make this transition complete. Yeah, so initially it was pretty easy, but painful to make the transition of categories in both running and triathlon. And it was basically like me contacting organizations because there were no policies in place at that time. So I would

write to somebody and say, I'm transgender. I want, I've been competing as female. I want to compete as male. How do I do it? And they're like, well, I don't know. We've never, we've never dealt with this, right? Yes. Let me forward your message on to eight of my colleagues who will then forward it on to more of their folks. So by the end of the chain, it was 40 people looped in on my, like me being out. So when I, and this was at a time when I didn't feel comfortable being fully out with a lot of people. So trying to figure out the policies, will I be able to compete? And how will I continue to fit out the policies, will I be able to compete? And, you know, how will I continue to fit in sports was, you know, that was difficult. Right. So what was the first race

that you competed in as a male? It was Ironman, Arizona. Oh, Ironman. I'm sorry. Ironman, Florida. Yeah. Ironman, Florida. And it was my first Ironman. It was my first time running outside without a shirt on, like from the wet, you know, with the wetsuit off. It was a very big race. Yeah, and so how did that feel to do that? It felt incredible. I was very well trained for it, I thought. Iron man, anything can happen, right?

Yeah, well, you trained for an iron, were you living in Manhattan at that time? I was, yeah, yeah, yeah. Where do you ride your bike? Like just in the park or up Route 9 across the bridge? Both, yeah. And I was very close to Central Park, so lots of laps. That Peloton in Central Park during the summer where they closed the roads? Wild. I mean, you're playing with your life with that thing. Yeah. Not so much at that time. I think now maybe, but

yeah. And a lot of trainer stuff too, a lot of indoor trainer work. In that race, I had this perspective of, I chose to do this. And not only did I choose to do this, to suffer in this race, I also paid a lot of money to do it. And I was there voluntarily. When things got hard on the run, what I kept going back to was living my life every day as a trans person is so much harder than what I'm doing right now. And that was the perspective that sort of guided me and made me be present in that race. When I finished the race, I crossed the finish line. First Ironman, first race as a man. I crossed the finish line, you know, first Ironman, first race as a man.

And the volunteer who was giving me the medal said, congratulations, you are an Ironwoman. Oh, no. And gave me the medal. Way to, like, rain on the parade. And it was devastating at the time. Clearly, I still use it as a story. I didn't even know, was it Mike Riley who said that? No, no, it was a volunteer who was giving me. Oh, okay.

Yeah, Mike Riley called the name out. Male or female, you are an Ironman, that's the phrase. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I think I didn't even see that coming. For me, that was a real moment of being like, I just did the hardest race of my life. I've been running out here,

working out for 11 and a half hours, and this is what I've met with for this accomplishment. But it was probably the first moment also that I let myself have one minute to be upset about it and then said, that's on them. That's not about me. Right. And that was a real turning point for me, I think, because it symbolized my focus. You know, I wasn't going to internalize other people's shit anymore. Yeah, that's a strong move, you know. And I think, you know, that epiphany that as hard as Iron Man is, it's not as hard as living your life, you know, in the skin of someone

else, right? It's not as hard as being a closeted transgendered person is a pretty powerful epiphany that I would imagine, you know, is kind of a brick in a, you know, an early brick in that wall of realizing that, you know, at some point you were gonna be an advocate for change. Yeah, and first before that was knocking down all of the walls that I'd already created for so many years. And I think that was a early part of gaining that confidence back of,

I was such a confident young kid. And I look back on that and think about those middle years and it's really sad to me. Like I was just such a confident and outgoing young person. And then I started to get these messages that who I was was wrong. And I started to not change who I was, but suppress and move. Yeah, exactly. And, you know, having that moment of being confident enough to say other people have their own stuff and how they see me is none of my business. That was a big first step to say. Free, it's freedom.

Incredibly freeing. And maybe I might have the strength to be that public person who doesn't exist right now. Up to that point, had you had the opportunity to meet any other trans athletes? No. Wow. And living in New York. Yeah. Still. Yeah. And no, I know we're gonna talk about the website that you've created, but prior to that,

like no online resource for people that were going through what you were going through and wanted to be athletic. Yeah, nothing. No community. No community, nothing on YouTube, nothing online in terms of resources, no policies that I could find that were applicable to six. So you made five national teams as basically an ITU triathlete or duathlete, right? Duathlete, yeah. Were all of those in duathlon?

And then one in triathlon. In triathlon, right. So how do you jump from Ironman Arizona or Ironman Florida into becoming this elite ITU triathlete? Well, I think for me, it was really that I don't like cold water, first of all. Taught myself how to swim, second of all. Swim super short. Yeah, for the tries. But for duathlon, there is no swim. So duathlon is run, bike, run.

And it was something that could totally bypass all of the discomfort that I felt in triathlon, which happened at the pool. So, you know, I started before my transition, I would be presenting masculinely, you know, looking essentially like I do now, going to the pool, having to use a women's restroom because there's only two ways to the pool. It's either through the men's locker room or the women's locker room. So having to use the facilities, get myself to the pool in a women's swimsuit and what that did for me and my soul was not healthy. That's interesting.

So even when I- So let's just get rid of all that, dispense with the swimming. Well, part of it was also that I just, I realized very quickly that I was much better at it than I was at triathlon. Triathlon was fun because it was all new things, right? And a whole new learning curve and community

and things to get to know. I mean, you can really geek out about it. For duathlon, when we were warming up for the tri season in New York, there were March and April duathlons. And that's really how I dipped my toe in and realized I'm just a better runner than I am a swimmer. And I could maybe be competitive at this. I remember in the early days of triathlon,

dating back to maybe, you know, mid 80s, early 80s, when it was all neon and, you know, Oakleys and all of that, and everyone was doing it in their speedo. Yep. That duathlon kind of stood on equal ground with triathlon. And there were Duathlon stars that you would read about in the Triathlon magazines. Like who's the guy with the long hair? Kenny Souza, do you remember these? See, I'm older than you, but like go back into the history and there were like, I think it was Kenny Souza

if I'm remembering correctly, but there were a couple of guys, like just like long manes of hair and like lots of neon. And duathlon was, you know, it got a lot of print. And at some point, you know, triathlon kind of took over and became, you know, what it is. And duathlon continued to coexist, but didn't quite, you know, it kind of became a smaller subculture, you know, in the Venn diagram of multi-sport. Yeah, certainly in that smaller subculture part by the time I had made it in. I do remember seeing like beer companies sponsored race series for duathlon.

Yeah. And it was really a big thing. But for me, it just started off as a fun way to warm up for triathlon and then, you know, realizing that there was some potential there. Right. So how long before you dip your toe into duathlon before you're like making these national teams and, you know, competing at the elite level? You know, I think that it was a couple of years, actually. I'm trying to think when I first started duathlon. 2015 was the first national team that I made. And I wanted to compete in the national championship in 2014 and didn't get clearance in time. So I basically had a full year, clearance being

therapeutic use exemption for taking testosterone. You need a TUE for the testosterone so that you can get around the doping kind of aspect of the whole thing. Yep. And so in that process, trying to navigate that as a first-time person with no resources found challenging and it didn't happen in 2014. So I basically had a full year of saying, this is my goal and I know what I want to do. for me as an athlete, as that'd be an amazing experience, but also as, wow, what might the significance of this be for the trans community, for the LGBTQ plus sports community? Right. Well, welcome to 2016 and you're met with that opportunity, right? So you begin your transition in 2010, 2016, you make Team USA and you've got a birth on the duathlon squad

that's gonna compete in Spain at the world championships, which is like an incredible achievement for any athlete, like let alone the fact that you, I mean, essentially, you know, genetically female and then transition to male and are competing with the top two athletes in America and you make Team USA. It's like an extraordinary achievement. It's incredible. And now you have your moment, your opportunity, because the IOC is in flux in terms of where it stands with respect to transgender athletes at that time, right? And you have this opportunity to kind of insert yourself into the comment period around how these regulations are going to get resolved regarding,

you know, the permissiveness of someone like yourself to be able to compete. So, you know, talk me through that. Yeah, the race was in spring, I believe, for qualifying for Team USA. And as soon as I qualified, I knew that I would not be allowed to compete internationally based on the policies in place with the International Olympic Committee. So the IOC at that time, what was the rule of law? So the rule was a two-year wait period for hormones as well as a full lower surgery. So internal and external genital modification in order to compete in sports. And I knew right away in making Team USA that I would challenge the policy because I don't feel like someone needs to modify their body in order to fully be themselves or to be a better athlete. So that was not part of my story of my transition.

And I was prepared to challenge them on that to say, it's a human rights violation. Like no one should have to modify their body in order to participate in sport. Right. And the two-year thing, like it's one year now, right? Yeah. So it was sort of this perfect storm of events. I made Team USA and the very next day shot off emails to ITU, to USA Triathlon, to IOC to try to figure out, will I be able to compete? And didn't get messages back and consistently was trying to make contact. At the same time, I was then featured in ESPN magazine for the first time in a profile that came out about me being a trans athlete.

And the profile- Was that prior to the body issue thing? Yeah. Yeah. We'll get to that. So in talking to the reporter, it became half a profile about me as an athlete and as a trans person, and then half a sort of criticism of this policy and how they wouldn't get contact back to ESPN. And, you know, so it was this really great highlight of how horrible of a policy it was, how it didn't make sense, how it was not applicable in my case. And that was really when when that article was published, no joke, within two weeks, we had contact with the IOC to talk about this because it really painted them as no one had any clue what they were doing at that time. Yeah, they were making decisions, but without the best

facts, right? Right. And from what I understand, they then entertained testimony from a variety of new experts on the subject that changed their minds on this. Yeah. And so they had this meeting after the ESPN article came out and made a decision to change the policy, to remove the surgery requirement, and then to change the hormone requirement from two years to one year for transgender women, hormone requirement from two years to one year for transgender women, which would mean one year of their hormone level being within a typical cisgender female range, and then totally eliminate the hormone requirement for transgender men. Right. So basically, you know, an argument can be made that your example, I mean, you in many ways single-handedly, you know, helped make this

change happen. Yeah. I mean, they really needed, I think, a name and a ways, single-handedly, helped make this change happen. Yeah, I mean, they really needed, I think, a name and a face of a person who was, it was impacting to say, all right, let's actually think about what this means. And the TUE testosterone thing, just for clarity for people who are listening, you're taking testosterone and the TUE,

the therapeutic use exemption, basically dictates that, yes, you can take testosterone, but it has to fall within the range of, like you said, like a cisgendered male. So it can't be used to enhance performance by exceeding what a normal kind of testosterone threshold would be for a typical male athlete. Right. And how do they figure out what that range is? Well, the range is huge for testosterone for men. The range is huge. And so I'm not sure what the benchmark is for those numbers, but they have set numbers and I have to do regular blood work to make sure that I'm within those ranges at all time and that I can be tested at any time to get my levels.

Right. So you get permission to compete, you get to compete, and then you go on to make, you know, a bunch more of these teams over the years, and then you become this race walker. Yeah. Now we don't even know what's going to happen. You're going to, you know, stick around for another Olympiad. Maybe we'll have our first Olympian. Perhaps. Out transgendered athlete. Perhaps.

You know, I think it was really cool to make this switch. So I made the team for 2020 in duathlon in April and then decided to switch over just because I have this opportunity to potentially make the Olympic trials. And that's really how it was set up. My friend Pablo Gomez trains with me in Chicago, and he is the number five race walker in the country. And little to my knowledge at that time, he was really trying to recruit anyone, but he told me that he thought I would be good. You need more bodies in this sport? motivate me to give it a shot. And it was such a cool experience because as an adult, when was the last time that you were a beginner at something? When was the last time something that you do all the time that you show up and see it with fresh eyes? When was the last time you were a beginner at something and then suddenly not a beginner? Right, right. Yeah.

In your case. Yeah. And I really love the process though. I love the process of figuring things out and there's so much to figure out in race walking with the form and the way that the races are structured and how the points work. You know, it wasn't like I was gonna show up at the Olympic trials and make the Olympic team unless I posted a 350 or faster, which no one at the race did.

It's all based on points from here on out. So I never went into that going, I'm going to be the first Olympian. And I've said this for the years that I've been out that when we have our first Olympian, I will feel as proud as if I was actually there because I've worked so hard to open these doors. But duathlon is not an Olympic sport. So there was never a shot and triathlon is totally out of the question. So this was just an opportunity to really take that next step of making the trials and opening that door. Now, are you the first out transgendered athlete to compete in an Olympic trials? Not in the Olympic trials, but in the gender with which they identify, yes. So in 2012 and 16, I believe, or maybe it's 8 and 12, there was an athlete named Keelan Godsey, who is a trans man who competed with women in the Olympic trials.

Okay. He made a social transition, he, him pronouns, and his name is Keelan, but he did not- But no medical transition. No medical transition, which then puts him in the position to compete with women. All right. It gets confusing. Yeah, and I think it really does.

And there's so much confusion and lack of education around just not even transgender athletes, which is complicated because the categories are so different and the levels of play are so different. But even just a general understanding of what it means to be transgender. Right, and in preparation for this, I mean, you started this website, Transathlete,

to kind of rectify this and be a place for, you know, people who were in your situation to go to. And I was looking through it and you have a whole tab on terms and it's basically a glossary. I feel like I know a little bit about this and I was like, wow, I didn't know that. I didn't know that.

I didn't know that. Like there's so much to learn and it isn't, I mean, we like to think of it as a very binary thing or a black and white thing. And it's very much not that. Yeah, and sport is very binary and that is where it becomes a problem, right? Because our world is increasingly not. Yeah. More and more young people identify as

something other than totally straight or cisgender. You know, they're in flux. Their identity is fluid more than ever. Yeah. That makes it trick. That makes it really hard. So this is a good point to kind of like launch into the advocacy aspect of what you do, because I think it's one thing for a transgender male like yourself to, you know, compete against other men, distinguish yourself admirably. Like that's something that we can all celebrate.

It's more fraught with controversy to be a transgender female competing against females because we have this tension between fairness and inclusion, right? That I think is, you know, what I learned preparing to talk to Kendra is a much more nuanced issue than I previously thought. But I still think, you know, we haven't figured out,

you know, a fantastic way of trying to resolve these increasingly, you know, more and more pressing problems around this. Yeah, the funny thing is we have figured it out. We have, okay. See, here's, I wanna be edified. So please educate me. Here's my perspective on this, right? We have figured it out. We have, okay. See here's, I wanna be edified, so please educate me. Here's my perspective on this, right?

We have figured it out, just the way the narrative around it is not accurate. We live in a time right now where anyone can tweet anything out and people will see it and take it as fact. And then, the responsibility of the person who it's affecting to defend or refute that statement is a challenge because people don't read the apologies. They don't read the corrections. They read the headline,

take it as fact, and move on. And what we've seen is that a lot of people have created these false narratives around transgender people and trans athletes., we've been able to compete in the Olympics since 2010. Since 2010, there have been zero transgender Olympians, right? We are not dominating in sport at the highest levels. Over 25 states have policies in place right now at the high school level that say that trans athletes can compete in the gender with which they identify. We are not seeing high school transgender athletes dominating across the board in sport. And so, you know, we have been participating. We have been participating with our peers in the category that aligns with our gender, and it's been working fine. Walk me through the, I mean, the sort of example that gets raised all the time is in transgendered women competing in combat sports, right? and you take an athlete who has lived, you know, the majority of their life as a male

and then has a medical transition to female, to what extent is that individual still living with the musculature and the bone density and all the like that gets associated with their male upbringing and then taking that into the ring and, you know, potentially creating a fairness issue and also a physical harm issue to their fellow competitor.

Like this is like kind of like where the battle lines are being drawn, I suppose. So talk me through this. And I think combat sports and power lifting are the two areas that we're seeing. I saw like a vice documentary about powerlifters on that. I don't know if you saw it, transgender powerlifters. Do you see that?

Yeah, I don't think I did. Super interesting, I learned a lot. But anyway, go ahead. Yeah, so I think that what we're doing though is we're working in broad generalizations of when people are thinking about that person stepping into the ring, that they're thinking about a six foot four,

ex-military SEAL, right? Like going into fighting some five, two woman. And it just doesn't work like that in that sport because it's weight-based and classification, right? They're evenly matched. What we've seen is that for transgender women after their one year of cross-hormone therapy, that they are on the same

competitive level as their female peers. And so we haven't seen a case of somebody coming in and dominating in combat sports. There was one MMA fighter, Fallon Fox, who she was not undefeated. She did not dominate in the ring. And she's often used as the example of, you know, why this is not okay. She was forced out of the sport because she couldn't get matches anymore because of all of the discrimination that she faced, not only as a transgender woman, but as a woman of color. And all of that sort of plays into how people are being treated. But you can imagine a scenario, like let's say you did, like some guy comes out of the Navy seals, just basically a beast and specifically trained

to be a killer or whatever, decides to become, to transition into being a woman, enters the ring in some kind of combat sport. Like, do you not see like that that could potentially raise an issue? Or do you think that this is all like a, you know, this can all be managed? You know, I certainly think that in that scenario, I mean, that is an extreme case. Right. But that's sort of, to do a thought experiment, you have to like play in the extremes to see what could potentially happen. Right. And,

you know, people are like, well, what if seven foot one NBA player transitions and wants to go play in the WNBA, right? Right. And there's all these what ifs and these situations just aren't happening. And we're talking about the extreme outskirts of the already elite when we're talking about these situations. So, I mean, if something like that came up, of course, I would look at that and probably have some thoughts about it, but it's just simply not happening. Right. So, in other words, in the fairness versus inclusion, you know, conversation, it's not a matter of tipping the scales towards inclusion over fairness. You're thinking that these things can coexist and that it's not problematic.

Absolutely. And I think transgender women and girls have been competing with women and girls for years without problem with their peers. issue about the disparity in sport and the gender inequity that exists in sport. What we really should be focusing on is women's sports and how we uplift women's sports. And I think that targeting transgender women does not do that. It doesn't help. The real problem is the lack of access, the lack of resources, the pay inequity that exists within women's sports because of systemic discrimination. Yeah. Well, certainly that's for real. You know, I've just put up a couple of podcasts that kind of go pretty deep into that. I mean, that's a huge problem. But in the track and field context, are there transgendered women who are, you know, killing it, competing against there aren't tell me, tell me what, I don't know. I mean, I didn't do any research on this,

so I actually don't know. Track and field is the one area that, you know, when people are talking about this across the country, they're looking at two transgender girls in Connecticut who are high school student athletes who last year went one, two at state. When we're talking about dominating, when they went to nationals, one didn't even compete and the other placed 30th and 31st in her two races. And so, you know, yes, they have won races, but dominating is inaccurate. Right. And I think that, you know, people really pick up on those stories. And these are two young black women. And, you know, I bring up race again because race is absolutely a part of this. You know, being a transgender woman is absolutely a part of this. Women in sports, both cisgender and trans,

have had their bodies policed for years, for decades. And it's by targeting transgender women and focusing on people's bodies, I think that we really perpetuate that issue within women's sports. Well, what happens in track and field, I mean, the case study that gets brought up conflates intersex because it's all about Castor Semenya, right? And whether or not she should be allowed to compete. And that brings up a different kind of ripple in the fairness versus inclusion conversation

because this is a human being who was just born a certain way. And so should she be unable to compete and penalized because this is how the universe or God or whatever you want to call it made her in a certain way? I can't, you know, proclaim to have the answer to that, but it's an interesting, you know, conversation that needs to be had. Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's really important that we remember that there's not just, there's not one way to be a man. There's not just one way to be a woman. And there are certainly categories that they have for hormones at the elite level of testing, right? But there's not

just one way to be a trans person either. And there's not just one way to have a body that excels in sport. So the body that a swimmer would have is going to be different than what would be helpful for an elite sprinter or a rower. So when we make these generalizations about trans women dominating a sport or someone like Kastor Semenya having her makeup being able to dominate in sport, I think that we reach real dangerous territory. Yeah. She found the sport that is great for her. Well, no question about that. A gifted athlete. But it's so interesting that because she is a black woman, because she is more masculine presenting, that she has been targeted in a way that other athletes have not.

that other athletes have not. Other incredible female athletes like Katie Ledecky, who beat people in Rio by an entire pool length, not even on the same TV screen. The most dominant swimmer you can imagine. Has not been questioned about her gender. And to my knowledge has not been tested for her hormone levels and things like that. And I don't think that she should be.

And I don't think any athlete should be, and I don't think any athlete should be, you know, because that's a real step back. For years, women in the Olympics were tested. They were gender tested, sex tested really. But there were these things called naked parades where female athletes would have to strip down nude and parade themselves in front of a panel of judges so that they could be visually inspected along with having gynecological exams and other things like that. I didn't know that. In order to make sure that they were actually a woman. Yeah.

Well, on the Katie Ledecky, you know, caster sort of rubric, you know, it brings up a broader conversation about what should be considered an illegal performance enhancer in general, right? There are exogenous substances that any athlete can take that are going to enhance performance. And we can talk about testosterone in a moment, but, you know, Michael Phelps has a crazy wingspan and giant feet and Castor, you know, is who she is and Katie is who she is. And, you know, if somebody is born with, you know, a very high level of testosterone and that's just how their body functions, you know, at what point does that become an unfair competitive advantage versus just a competitive advantage, right? Where do we draw the line between something that is exogenous and something that is, you know, indigenous to that individual? And I think

with respect to trans women athletes, they do police testosterone levels, right? Like they have to be within a certain, you know, range in order for them to get permission to compete against other women. Is that how it works? Yes. And they're not testing cisgender athletes, and nor should they. I don't think athletes should be tested in that way. But it is a different situation for transgender women. It's going to get even more complicated when we start seeing genetic modifications

and CRISPR and all of that. Yeah, my brain can't even do it. It's complicated now. I don't know how you're gonna be able to figure out what's fair and what's not at that point. Well, and that's the thing. I think that we are all just trying our best for the most part.

There are certainly lawmakers out there, policymakers who have never spoken to a transgender athlete, who lack the education and understanding about what it actually means to be trans and transition, and are making policies that impact our ability to participate with our peers. I think that it is incredibly complicated, even as an advocate for me to talk about, because at the high school level, I believe the policy should be different than at the college or the elite level of participation in play.

And so to break down the different categories, it becomes incredibly complicated. Yeah, well, I wanna get into some of your advocacy around the shifting regulatory landscape here, but when did you first realize that you kind of had a voice in this movement and that you were going to shoulder that responsibility? It may have been as early as my first decision to come out publicly, which was 2010 after that Ironman race, I wrote an article

for The Advocate and, you know, to hit send on that article made me realize that this is something I'll never be able to go back from. And having the opportunity to be in the New York Times in 2011, I had done the New York City Triathlon as female in 2009 and then as male in 2011. Has anyone else done that? No. Really? Maybe after, but I was the first that they knew of. And that's the thing with all of this is like first known, I'm the first known out trans athlete. Um, but I think that that was the moment where I, I decided like, I am going to put myself out there and most of it is to be

who I needed when I was younger. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's kind of your mantra, right? Be the person that you needed, you know, when you were a young person. trans kids, but also from their parents. And it's just so incredibly impactful to be able to see the impact of being a role model, even if I'm not reaching everybody, right? Of the people who are seeing me are being really moved by it and it's changing their lives. Somebody said to me recently, you know, not just, I'm not just being the person I needed when I was younger, but I'm being the person that young people today need to see. Yeah. Whether they're trans or cis, it doesn't matter that more people need to know that trans people exist, that we can live happy, authentic, safe, successful lives, and that we are here. And that, yeah, basically that mainstream culture and society can see you thriving and doing well and, you know, kind of, you know, as a healthy individual in the world, as kind of this lighthouse, you know,

irrespective of whether, you know, that person reading that or seeing that has anybody who's trans in their, you know, inner circle or not, just that alone, I think is a powerful thing because it's one thing to be profiled in the Advocate or an Out Magazine or any of these kind of publications of that world, but it's another thing altogether to have like this big profile in the New York Times. Right. And that's the transition from you being a mouthpiece and a spokesperson amongst your community to being kind of this beacon that exists in culture at large.

Yeah. And then I started to seek that out. When I saw that that was an opportunity, that that was an option for me, I really started to seek out opportunities to be that person. It's funny, going through my emails recently, like way, way back, cleaning out the inbox. I found some that I was writing to my friends who were authors and writers at publications saying, if you're ever doing a story about transgender athletes, please contact me. I'm trying to position myself as an expert. And so it was really something that I had planned to, when I created the website, you know, as a resource that sort of gave me more opportunities to speak and to, you know, be someone that people would go to for information. And I really tried to set it up so that I could

be that person that just didn't exist in the world at that time. How did the ESPN body issue happen for you? That was like 2016, right? Yeah. So in the first ESPN article, I had mentioned to the author, you know, hey, if you're picking people for the body issue, I'd love to do it. And she said, oh, that's funny. You're like making it happen, making moves, power moves, you know? That's a heat check. It was, it was. I think I, you know, I think after it left my mouth, I was like, what did I just do? Because she said that her editor was actually the editor of that issue and that she would pass it along. And I didn't really think much about it afterwards.

But in February, I got a call to ask if I would be in it. And, you know, instantly said yes. And they said, well, you know, this is a nude shoot, right? Like this is totally naked. I was like, yeah, yeah, I know. They're like, no, no Photoshopping, like no clothes. And I was like, yeah, I'm I know. They're like, no, no photoshopping, like no clothes. And I was like, yeah, I'm in like, let's do it. For so long, I was so insecure about being myself and about existing in this world. And I thought, what an amazing opportunity. Like my body is my machine.

I work very hard on it. And also I think it's great for people to see a trans person in this issue. So it was just a great opportunity. Yeah, and you look great. You were ripped, you know. Yeah, thanks. And I think it's, you know, look, that's, you know, the image. I mean, you know, the symbology of that, like, is super powerful. And to see, you know, the scars and all of that, you know, all of it, you know.

And to see how you present physically in that form as an elite athlete, like it, that was a big deal, man. Yeah. There was a lot around that because so often trans people are reduced to their bodies, right? When we're talking about how people show up in sport and, and the fetishization of trans people in general, it's, It's all about our bodies. That's what people are interested in

when they're talking about transition and surgeries and what's in my pants and so on, right? And it was really empowering to be able to put myself out there. But the pushback that I got from some people was that it was an inaccurate or unattainable representation of being trans, which I thought was really interesting

because my body is not everyone's body and there's no wrong way to have a body, but my body is trained through 20 plus hours of training a week. Well, and the body issue is about inspiration and aspiration. Right. You're not there to present the every man

or every woman version of that. Right, right. And I think some people really got wrapped into that because it was a trans body. But I think the inspiration and aspiration piece, I mean, you're spot on there. Like when I'm talking, I'm always saying that I don't want my story to be inspirational. I want it to be aspirational. I want people to see me, and even if they're not an athlete, be compelled to go and be more authentically themselves in this world and not feel like they have to give up their passions in order to do so. The tectonic plates of law are shifting rapidly, and you're very outspoken on Twitter and through your various channels about what's happening right now. I think we have

eight state bills at the moment that are attempting to prevent transgender kids from competing in high school sports. Is that correct? Or recreational sports? Just over nine now. Nine. We've got this law in South Dakota, SDHB 1057, that you've been talking a lot about that would make it a crime to provide puberty blockers to transgender or aspiring transgender minors, right? Is that correct? Trans youth. Trans youth. Yep.

There's a law in Arizona. There's certain things going on with the Supreme Court right now, making it potentially legal to fire workers who are LGBTQ+, right? Utah, the ACLU is involved in all of this. Like, walk me through the legal landscape, what's happening now. First, maybe at altitude, and then we can drill down on some of these laws and what you see is happening. Yeah. So I think it's important to say, first of all, at the high school level, I believe it's something like 17 states have fully inclusive policies where there are no hoops to jump through for transgender high school student athletes. They say who they are and they get to compete on that team. And there are several other states,

probably up to the total count being 35 states in total that allow trans people to participate in some capacity, even if they have some sort of check system or someone has to make a decision. It's weird that there's laws at all. I wouldn't even think that there would be laws. It's just whatever you want to do, go play sports, man. So they're not laws. So they are – in each of these states, they're made by the high school state athletic association, which is why there are several states that have no policy at all. And then there are states like Texas and Indiana that require student athletes to participate according to their birth certificate. And so we have this whole range across the 50 states

of being super inclusive and no problems, and then not being able to participate at all. I would imagine it breaks down between red and blue. It does and it doesn't. There are some surprising moments in between. But what we are seeing right now is state lawmakers in different states are trying to make house bills or have presented house bills to have the government regulate what happens in high school sports. So there are states that have had policies like Washington State, for example,

was one of the first states to create a policy for transgender student athletes in the early, say, 2010 to 2012 time period. They've been existing with no problems in their state whatsoever. And that law says what? That's their policy, the high school state association policy says, if you are a transgender student athlete, you say what your gender is, you can compete with that gender without question. And there's no switching back and forth. That doesn't happen. People are, I am a trans man. I want to compete with boys and men. And that's how they compete. And there's no

hoops to jump through. Washington is one of the states now where government has stepped in and said, we don't want transgender girls competing with girls. And some of the bills don't say girls specifically, but that's essentially what it is because no one's really worried about the trans boy competing with boys. When know, when they're bringing up the sort of narrative that they're presenting is all about transgender girls. And so there are now nine states that have these bills on the table to try to prevent at the government level,

what has already been working in the high school level. Yeah, well, I suppose, I mean, I would imagine there's a lot of fear mongering around all of that. The possibility does exist that some kid, you know, who weighs 250 pounds could decide, okay, I now just, you know, as a prank or as a, you know, social experiment to say, I identify as female and I'm gonna go play,

you know, girls basketball or whatever, right? This is a broad sweeping generalization. I think that's really what the people who are presenting these bills are relying on, right? Is like this idea that it's not just the fear of a transgender girl competing with girls. The way that they're framing it is that they don't want a boy to be competing with girls. So first of all, there are policies in place that prevent boys and men from playing girls and women's sports, right? So we're not seeing someone who is a boy trying to compete with girls. And transgender girls are girls. And so to frame it up in that way negates their identity completely. But if somebody has socially transitioned

but not medically transitioned, what's the difference? So there are policies and the policies address that. Some states say it's okay, we're not checking hormones and some go by hormones. The ones that go by hormones are a lot more restrictive for young people because you have to think, like to make that decision at a young age is a lot.

It's not just on that person who may know truly who they are but they need the family support, they need the insurance, they need access to appropriate medical care. And there are a lot of factors that go into that. Got it, okay. And what about these laws that are potentially, or this law, I guess, in South Dakota that could potentially criminalize the provision, you know, by healthcare providers of puberty blockers. Like, walk me

through the arguments on both sides and why this is kind of like a test case out there that everyone's kind of paying attention to. Yeah. So multiple states have now come up with these house bills that want to criminalize providing gender affirming care to transgender youth. What this means is that kids are going to die. I mean, really, when I think about my own experience, I think I got to that point on that birthday where I thought I can, I will not be here for another birthday if I continue to live my life like this. Because of the mental health concerns. And it's not mental health concerns. It's, it's existing in the world in total, right? Like the stresses that the world

and me being who I was and how people saw me is certainly, you know, caused mental health concerns, I guess you could say it that way. But it was more like, I just couldn't see myself being here anymore, right? Like I couldn't see a future for myself. I didn't feel like there was a place for me. And it's been proven that providing gender affirming care for young people reduces suicidality in trans use. Right. The argument would be that, you know, the minor's brain and kind of emotional state are in flux and continue to be developing at that age. So it's too young.

Like, we need to wait. Like, we can't move forward with this kind of, this set of procedures at this time. And we need to allow this person to mature until they have an adequate level of conviction and maturation to make that decision of sound mind. And I think none of these decisions are being made lightly.

And I think that's something that people need to remember is that no one is transitioning for an advantage in sport. It simply doesn't happen, right? Like what trans people have to face in the rest of their lives would never offset a gold medal or a state championship, right? People are not transitioning to gain athletic advantage. And in the case of trans youth, separate from sport, these are decisions that need to be made with parents and with healthcare providers, right? There's no way for a 16-year-old to just go get puberty blockers. And so what some of these bills are doing is saying that it would be a crime for a doctor to provide gender-affirming care to a patient who wants it. And their family, right, and their

parents who have had this conversation and know that this is the best decision for them, it would make it illegal for doctors to do their jobs. these puberty blockers, denying that person the ability to avail themselves of that at that time would allow puberty to move forward. Right. And assuming that that young person's conviction remains true and they continue to wish to transition, it then becomes a much more complicated procedure down the line because of the development that ensues by virtue of puberty. Correct. Right? Is that accurate? That is accurate.

And we've seen mental health benefits for young trans people who receive gender affirming care for puberty blockers. So puberty blockers would happen maybe for a year or two years before cross-hormone therapy. And that's, as you said, to sort of delay the onset of any sort of physical changes that might be associated with puberty. You know, I think about what my experience would have been like as a young person. If I knew who I was and was able to exist in the world fully as that person, I would have had a totally different life.

the world fully as that person, I would have had a totally different life. And I think I would have, I would have bypassed a lot of the pain that I felt in high school and college and out of college when I didn't know what that, what those feelings were or, or have the words to put to them. What are the mental health statistics with respect to trans youth, like in terms of the incidents of depression and suicide and other kind of related mental issues? Yeah, it's 41% of transgender people attempt to take their own life. 41%.

41%. And so you think about- Of transgender people in general or youth? Of trans youth. Sorry, trans youth, yeah. And youth being what, like under 21 or something like that? 23 or 25 probably. You know, for us to have the opportunity

to provide care for someone and not to do that is putting them in a position where we're telling them that their lives are not worthy. And is there any validity or wisdom to the argument that, you know, minds do change? And, you know, I know like ideas that I had when I was a young person, you know, it's like, I don you know, I know like ideas that I had when I was a young person, you know, it's like, I don't know what I was thinking at that time.

Right? Like that's where the fear is. Is there legitimacy to that? Because, you know, it seems to me you could make somewhat of a cogent argument around that. Yeah, and with the healthcare system, there are steps in place to make sure that this is a true and authentically held

identity before any of this would start to happen. And so, you know, in my own case, I had to see a therapist for a very long time, nearly a year before I could get hormones. And it was to make sure that I was- Essentially vetting you through this whole thing. Yeah. And I think that has changed a little bit. There was a requirement that someone had like this lived experience of transition and those sort of requirements have gone away. But these are decisions that people are making with their parents, with their families

and with their healthcare providers, really talking through what the outcomes would be. Right. I think the fear is like, that's not the framework that politicians are setting this up against. What we're seeing is this is an election year. These are conservative candidates in conservative states.

Yeah, it's not a mistake that this is all happening in an election year. And marriage equality is no longer on the table for us to drive a wedge in between voters. And so this, for whatever reason, transgender people and specifically trans athletes has become that hot button topic. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting when you look at it through that lens and it kind of pushes that, you know, severity and fear button by saying, you know, in criminal, you're literally criminalizing this, like there's a fine and there's also the potential of going to jail for a year. So any doctor that would like, you know, go through with, you know, a patient on this protocol is looking at jail time. Right. For doing their job.

And that's, this is South Dakota, but there are similar laws like this, you know, on the- Across the country. Across the country. Yeah. And it's terrifying because what it does is it sets up people, you know, even if this law doesn't pass. And so by the time we're done recording this podcast, we'll know what happened in South Dakota. Oh, wow. It's happening today. Right now, two o'clock today, they're voting on it. Is it two o'clock? Sorry to say, Blake, check it out. It's Blake Ryan. You can go on the internet and find out. So, you know, when we find this out- HB 1057. Go ahead.

Even if this doesn't pass, the narrative around it is so incredibly dangerous because it sets us up for people to not treat trans people as people, right? It's already putting out there that the Trevor Project is a organization that handles mental health concerns and is like a hotline for LGBTQ plus youth. And they've seen a huge spike in the number of calls from South Dakota since the announcement of this bill. You know, this is impacting young people because we're telling them like, you're not worthy. Your existence, your very existence is up for debate. Like you can't imagine how that might feel. Yeah. So how do you comport yourself as an advocate? Like how do you think about how you speak about these issues, you know, the kind of language that you choose to, you know, use and, and how you see yourself, like,

like, are you going to be out there, you know, on the front lines, like, you know, pounding your fist, or are you trying to be somebody with open arms who's on the receiving end of these, you know, trans youth? Like, how do you, like, what's your vibe with all of it? There are so many different components to it because social media is such an incredible tool, both for my advocacy, but also for my visibility and for my ability to connect with and mentor other people. And so I would say, you know, many, many trans people who have come out who have been in sport that we've heard stories about or read about, I have mentored in some way, reached out to them, helped them through their process. I've mentored in some way, reached out to them, helped them through their process. I get contacted by trans kids across the country who are trying to stay in sport, who are having issues with coaches or policies. And so I'm in this position where I get to mentor people and parents and provide education to colleges and universities through my speaking.

And then also use Twitter as a way to spread information and use Instagram as a way to spread information. And part of that is simply by being visible, I can help to expand people's understanding about what it means to be trans. Yeah. I mean, you must be the most visible trans athlete out there. I believe that I am. Yeah, I think you are. And for me, it's really important to approach everything as a sort of learning opportunity. You know, there's this idea of like meet people where they're at. And I certainly do that, but I also want to bring them along a little bit. Right. And so I know that most people that I'm talking to,

even if they say something that's offensive, it's not intended to be offensive in most cases. Yeah. Have I offended you at all? You have not. All right. Yeah, you have not. I mean, here's the thing. I feel like I know a little bit, but I'm also, I have a self-awareness around the level of ignorance that I have around this too. And I think most people out there kind of know a little bit and maybe they're not interested in knowing much more about that. Right. And what I've noticed about you is you have,

you know, you have a lot of equanimity with people. Like you don't get upset and you know, you have an acute ability to kind of communicate and connect with people. And you do meet them where they're at in the sense that like you're not gonna chastise somebody because they didn't understand that they had their phraseology off or something like that. And instead, you look at it as an opportunity to kind of educate them a little bit more. Yeah.

I mean here's the thing. You don't know what you don't know. So I approach everything – for years, I didn't know I was transgender. And I'm a trans person now talking about identity, right? Like you don't know what you don't know. But there's a responsibility when you have that awareness, when you have that education to do better. And so I feel like I can go into conversations and treat people with dignity and respect and help them come to a better understanding about transgender identity and what it means. And, you know, some of these horrible policies that are being put out there and help move them along.

And that is the way that I think that I can create social change. It's not by engaging in Twitter wars or responding to trolls or, you know, and I, and I do respond to people who are against me or who sometimes say things because I want my response that's with love and respect to be an example for other people. Yeah. Do you subtweet it or do you like retweet it with adding the thing, you know? You know what I mean? There's a difference. Yeah, yeah. Because you can respond and it goes below or you retweet it and your response is above. I think it probably depends on what it is. But also there's a lot of private messages that happen. And, you know, I think that more than the stories, the articles, the documentaries and stuff like that, I'm really proud of my ability to communicate with other people and, and help them understand who I am. And it's a very different situation when you know

somebody who has that identity, right? When you, when you have a conversation with me and you've never talked to a trans person before, I feel like that's a moment where I can help be a good reflection of our community. And even though I am just myself and can't represent all trans people, um, you know, I can, I can let people know, like I'm a regular person and I like, you know, a lot of the same things that you like and we can find common ground and take away some of the scariness and the concerns that people have about trans people. Because the way that these politicians are positioning us is as not human. Yeah. Yeah, we're scared of what we don't know. Right.

And when it's the other, then it's easier to create a boogeyman around that. Right. Much harder to sit across from you, getting to know you to, you know, have that perspective. Yeah. You know, other than the laws that we've kind of touched on, where do you see the biggest battle lines being drawn right now?

Like where is the war being waged? What's the fight that needs to be fought? Is it over like the bathrooms? Is it over, you know, these state laws in sports or, you know, even outside of sports? Like what is the civil rights situation at the moment as you see it? Yeah, it really is around transgender youth and around healthcare. And I think that we'll see these policies at the state levels go through or not go through about preventing transgender athletes in the high school level from competing. And then we're going to see all of these, I believe it's over a dozen of these

bills about healthcare. And that is a really dangerous situation. It is a sort of a gateway law, right, to prevent trans people from existing in public. You know, you deny me my ability to have appropriate affirming healthcare and very bad things can happen. Right. I mean, that's denying somebody's personhood, I suppose, on a fundamental level. And that's going precipitate a domino effect from mental health, of a mental health issues all the way to suicide. Yeah, yeah. And I think I also wanna be very careful of framing this up just around mental health.

Certainly mental health is what will lead us to no longer existing, right? But there's so much more than that. And I think that there is this narrative of trans people being mentally ill that people faced and fought for so long. You know, the mental health issues that we're facing, whatever, you know, depression and suicidality and things like that are the result of not being treated like humans. And so it's not inherently. That's a very good, super important point. It's not inherently that because I am trans, I am susceptible to

mental illness or mental health concerns. It's that the world treats us in a way. Yeah, it's a symptom. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Is there a particular law that you would like to see passed or overturned? No, I think that we need federal protections that include gender identity. Yeah. Expanding like the Civil Rights Act basically is what you're saying. Yeah, because when we start to have these state policies, we saw the domino effect here of having one state put up this healthcare policy

and then within a matter of three weeks, the numbers are climbing. Wow, man. So we don't know, there's no current out transgender person that we know of that's competing in the upcoming Olympics in Tokyo? Yeah. Not that I know of at this time, but a lot of the trials are still coming up, the competitions that are going to sort out who actually goes. So it is possible. It is absolutely possible that this would be the year.

And what's the vision that you hold? Like four years, 10 years from now, like where would you like to see the state of culture and sport? And we can kind of wrap it up with that, I think, right? Like where's this going? If it was up to you. I think that sport is one of the most

magical places for people to exist. I think that sport is a vehicle for social change and the change that happens within sports in terms of policies and acceptance and inclusion can really be a guide for the rest of the world. And we've seen it in the past. And I think that we are, rest of the world. And we've seen it in the past. And I think that we're at a crossroads right now where how we treat inclusion in sport is going to reflect in the rest of society. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think I read somewhere that you were inspired by some of the great activists, athletes out there. I don't know who in particular, but there's these iconic images that come to mind from Muhammad Ali to the closed, gloved fist on the podium at the Olympics.

And the ability of the athlete to move culture forward and advance conversation around ideas that people are resistant to is a thing, you know? And I think that you're somebody who is on, you know, the sort of, you know, razor's edge of this in a new and broader, you know, conversation around civil rights and what that means and what kind of culture and society do we want to be in and live in? And I think your advocacy is admirable. And I'm in awe of your athletic talent and also your strength and your courage

to put yourself out there, in harm's way, I think, in a very real way. Like you're putting yourself at peril to get this message across and, you know, that may get lost in the conversation, but I would imagine that that's a very real consideration for you as well, your safety. So it's important work that you're doing and I wish you all the best and thank you for what you do. Thank you. You know, athletes have a platform and I think that athletes have social capital, not just in the United States, but in the world. And we look at Olympians differently. We look at professional athletes differently. We even look at high school and collegiate athletes differently.

things like the New York Times article, and to be able to express to people the concerns about the realities facing transgender people, not just in sport, but in our community as a whole. I want people to know that they can be their authentic self and continue to play the sports that they love and continue to do their passions and not have to compromise any part of their identity, to hide any part of their identity. Because when we are authentic about who we are and when we are able to, and it's not safe for everyone to come out, but if we are able to do that, you know, your entire world opens up and it not just impacts you, but it impacts the people around you. And I think that's really how social change is created, you know, is that ripple effect. And so, you know, my hope is that me waking up

every single day and living an awesome life can be my advocacy. And, you know, all the other parts I have to talk about are, you know, part of that, but I really just want people to see that I am possible, that they are possible because I am possible. And nothing is off limits. Like people can have a future,

but the future that I didn't see for myself when I was younger, it exists. And for the person who's listening, who's living a secret double life or just is afraid to come out, what is the kind of message that you would like to impart to that person? Yeah, there are so many factors that go into one's ability to come out and it's now with laws

and policies like this about access to care and safety there are financial concerns and family support concerns for young people there are you know very real possibilities that people will lose their house or their you know apartment and housing their employment and things like that and so there are so many factors that go into it that i would never tell somebody that they have to come out. I think this is one of the problems that we have in professional sports is like we're looking for that out gay male athlete

in the big four sports. Like when are they going to come out? There are so many factors in any LGBTQ plus person's existence of whether or not to come out. My message to that person would just be that they are valid and their identity is valid and real, and that they are worthy of love and respect and dignity.

And if that person is looking online for some support and resources, where can you direct those people? Other than you, of course, transathlete.com. Yeah, transathlete.com for young people, GLSEN, G-L-S-E-N is a great resource. For families, PFLAG is a great resource. And there are so many organizations that are doing work around advocating for trans people in different areas of life. But, you know, the biggest thing that has made a difference for me

is that human connection of having somebody to talk to. So I actually just opened myself up to send me a DM. Like I talk to, you know, talk to a ton of people and what I will maybe be most proud of is not the accomplishments that I have athletically, but knowing that I've been a part of hundreds of school projects for young people, you know, of, of that I've had video chats and message exchanges with hundreds of young people. And that has made a real difference having just that one

person reach out and say, like, I know what you're going through or, you know, you're gonna be okay. Yeah. All right, man. Well, hit up Chris in the DMs at the Chris Mosier. Get your terms down by going to the glossary on transathlete.com, study up on that and get your knee sorted out, right? Yep. So you can start training again. Next step. You have surgery on that coming up

or what are you just letting it heal or what's going on? Yeah, I'm exploring my options i you know i want to continue to be competitive to compete at eye level and uh not sure if that definitely means surgery or what i can do but we'll get it sorted out cool well enjoy the rest of your time in la and uh come back anytime my man i appreciate it thank you thank you so much. All right. Peace. Namaste. Namaste. So we did that.

That happened. That was me and Chris. What'd you guys think? It's pretty illuminating, right? Very powerful. Thank you again to Chris for being so open, being so vulnerable. I just loved everything that he had to share and found it quite illuminating

so if Chris's story and message tugged at you I encourage you to donate to the Trevor Project and you can visit transathlete.com to learn more ways that you can take action you can find these links in the show notes on your podcast app or on the episode page at richroll.com and throw some love Chris's way

on Instagram and Twitter he is at the, or the, at the Chris Mosier. If you'd like to support the work we do here on the show, subscribe, rate, and comment on it on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube.

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at richroll.com forward slash donate. Thank you to everybody who helped put on today's show. Jason Camiello for audio engineering, production, show notes, and interstitial music. Blake Curtis and Margo Lubin for videoing and editing today's show. Jessica Miranda for graphics. Allie Rogers for portraits.

Georgia Whaley for copywriting, DK for advertiser relationships, and theme music, as always, by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt, and Hari Mathis. Thanks for the listen. I appreciate your attention. I'll see you back here in a couple days with who knows, who knows, people.

All I can say is that it's gonna be good. Until then, be safe, take care, eat well, move more, and try to be grateful for the good things in life. I know it's not always easy. I struggle with this, believe me, but it's worth the effort. Peace. Plants. Namaste. Thank you.