The Rich Roll Podcast - Transcending The Shadow Artist

Episode Date: February 13, 2013

Yes, this is a health & fitness podcast. But physical health is only one component of holistic wellness. If your life feels amiss, your unfocused mind wanders or your spirit is adrift, then are you truly healthy in a complete sense? Of course not. So after several very nutrition and athlete focused episodes, it feels right to swing the pendulum from the physical back to the more ephemeral and return Julie Piatt to the co-host seat so we can roll up our sleeves and delve into matters less — well, let's say “tactile” — and examine what's behind the blocks preventing us from actualizing those latent dreams deferred that reside within all too many of us. It all starts and ends with creativity. And creativity my friends, isn't just for “artists” — because we are all artists, our lives and passions the expression of that art. To wit: * What is impairing your ability to realize the best version of yourself? * What is a shadow artist and how can it be overcome? * Tools for tackling self-doubt, fear patterns & obstacles to unlock & unleash your latent creativity as a channel for manifesting positive life change. * And oh yeah, my feelings about Valentine's Day….. Julie takes us out with “I'm Here Now”, from her album Mother of Mine. Thanks for the support and enjoy the show! Rich

the rich roll podcast that's right everybody today on the podcast we're back with the very controversial julie pyatt how you doing doing great rich thanks for having me back on your show yes well i think it was about time i think so you, it's been a while. We had to take a break. We did. But I figured I wanted to have a conversation with my wife. And so why not broadcast it to the world if we're going to talk? Absolutely. I figure it's so nice that we have a chance to get so intimate and close. We created the podcast just so that we could have intimate conversations. It's changed everything for us. With four kids, you know, we never get a chance to actually connect. So this, I guess, will serve that purpose. It's a privilege. Yeah, that's right. So how do you feel about the reaction coming your way on the podcast?

Well, the reaction. Well, first of all, I just want to say thanks so much for all that. I've gotten so many emails and messages and tweets from people supporting me. And I really, really appreciate that very much. So it's been really extraordinary. You know, it always is touching and makes a difference, you know, in my life when I know that by sharing my own journey, it inspires other people and helps other people to find their own way. And I'm not really going to focus on anything else. No, I would say that there is a lot of great feedback in what you're bringing to the equation. And just to reiterate, I stand behind you 100%. Thank you, darling. And you're a big

part of this podcast and you will remain so. And, you know, we have, it's a polarized thing. You have huge champions on one side and then you have some sort of outspoken snarkiness on the other hand. And it's been an adventure. You know, I've sort of been a little bit, because of the book and other, you know, sort of speaking, going around speaking this past year or whatever, I guess I'm a little bit in the spotlight, but it's a new thing for Julie. And we've had to weather a little bit of discontent from a few people that might see the world a little bit differently. Well, I mean, I think it's been a wonderful opportunity as everything that comes in our path is, you know, it's really my honor, my opportunity to go deeper

into who I am. So, you know, for a second, it's like you get this email that's, you know, it's, it's really my honor, my opportunity to go deeper into who I am. So, you know, for a second, it's like you get this email that's, you know, you know, actually really, really intense. And then, or I didn't receive it, you did. But, you know, but then you, you, you say, you know, who am I and what's important to me and how do I choose to live, to live my life. And then you, you know, I have to make those decisions and sort of recommit and sort of review it and say, well, would I've said those things again? And, uh, and I would. So. Well, I think it's a good, uh, barometer of where you stand with yourself.

And, you know, this part of the definition of this podcast is expanding your authenticity and your creativity and stepping into a more actualized version of yourself, whatever form that may be for you. And when you get comments, positive and negative, you run this mental calculus of, well, people like that, but people don't like that. And should we change the show? And should I address subjects differently?

Because this seems to be what people want. And I think it takes a firm constitution to say, well, all of that's fine and well. And I'm more than happy to read all of that and listen to it and take it into consideration. But at the end of the day, we have to be, again, the authentic version of ourself. I mean, that's part of what we're talking about here. So this podcast is gonna be what I want it to be and you're gonna get to say what you wanna say and we're gonna stand firm on our ground with that

and that's the way it is. So if there are people out there that are not resonating with that, I'm perfectly fine with that. There's plenty of other podcasts out there and other things that you can spend your time listening to. And I think it's important to also create a safe, and I've said this a couple times, so I apologize if you heard me say it before, a couple of times. So I apologize if you heard me say it before, but to create a safe environment for people to come in and be vulnerable and express their opinions in an environment in which they feel comfortable doing so without fear of being attacked. And that may mean that people will be on the podcast that I disagree with or see things differently. And I think you've seen that if you've been listening for a while, I've had a couple of people on where I have a little bit

of a different point of view than they do. And we can have a conversation about that and we don't have to get in a fistfight or get into some huge argument and be adults about the whole thing and let the audience draw their own conclusions about what they think and what they want to take in and what they want to discard. But it's a forum of ideas, and that's the beauty of the long-form conversation. And I think you have to recognize and respect that. So it's not always going to be people that share your point of view on the show

and like-minded people. And it's going to be a spectrum of people, and I think that that's a good thing. Yeah, I think it's an amazing thing. And I think it, you know, it does it, the long format and the openness allows for some, you know, really great interest and new ideas to be presented.

So, you know, I agree. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care, especially because unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere

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Life in recovery is wonderful, and recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. You know, that's one of the things that's the beauty of your and my marriage is that we can disagree and we can feel very differently about certain things. And we can even express that to each other actually pretty straightforward. Like, you know, that's one of the things that I really, really love about being in an intimate relationship with you is that it is

really authentic. And you know that even if I say something with passion and, you know, I'm, I can be intense, you know, I'm, I'm a strong woman. You're not afraid to go, okay, listen, you have got to stop doing this, that, and the other thing. And I could say, you know what, screw you. I'm out of here, you know. But I go, okay. I take a breath.

I pause. I've learned to pause when agitated. Take a step back and go, well, maybe I want to react to this, but let me wait an hour or wait a day and process it and look at it maybe more objectively when my emotion, my emotional body calms down and try to look at my part in it and then understand where you're coming from and go, okay, I could see what she's saying and I could do better here. Usually after I've done that and I come back to it, then I can recognize my part in it rather than just get my back up and be defensive and adjust accordingly. And that doesn't mean I always agree with you, like you said. No, and you're, but you're incredibly

generous and incredibly, you know, you're just, you're willing to look at your side of the street, you know, and, and, and maybe that's, you know, all the work that you've done on yourself and your journey, you know, that you write about in your book and, you know, all your AA program and just everything. So it's allowed us to have a very open relationship where we, we really know where each other stands. Like there's not, it's not like we're glossing over anything and yet this tremendous love is holding all of it so it's never um you know it's never it's never done in disrespect and it's never exchanged i mean i really don't experience that in our in our marriage like almost ever you know it can we can be disagreeing but the respect and the love stands firm. So how do you think we got there? So let me

just, well, hold on. Let me just back up a little bit. So the first couple of episodes of the podcast, you were the co-host for pretty much every one of them. And then people started to say, I thought this was a health and nutrition podcast. Where's the health and nutrition? I want to learn about this, that, and the other. So I've had a slew of experts or opinionated people in that field. And I feel good about what I've been able to deliver in that regard. And there's plenty more coming. But again, I wanted to get back to the other side of the equation of the podcast, which is this idea of personal growth and part of health, health in its grander sense, wellness, I guess you could say, uh, extends beyond what's on your plate and the workout that you did that day and what kind of foods, super foods, whether they're plant-based or otherwise you're putting into your body to make you feel good.

That's a huge part of it, but then what do you do with that? You know what I mean? I feel like that's the beginning. So once you do that and you are tending to your physical body, how do you better express yourself, the best version of yourself in the world?

And I think that's where Julie comes in. So she's back to balance the equation. So what was my question? No, well, I think what you're talking about is you're talking about, okay, so we have this relationship to food, right? And it's the first portal. So it's kind of like it affects everybody universally. And then when you really start to get into the more, the inner meaning of the food and where it leads is it leads to all this kind of relationship and emotion.

So I think it comes down to, you know, starting to explore your relationship to food. Maybe it might be the first step. It might not, but maybe it might just for this. You mean your emotional relationship to food? Yes's one one one way one avenue and then it would be your relationship to yourself and then maybe your relationship to your environment and then your relationship to the to the planet and then possibly your relationship to something greater than all of that. You forgot one thing now. Tell me. Relationship to other people.

Yes, to others as well. Absolutely. Thank you. So yeah, again, food is the portal and it is a very emotionally charged subject. Just yesterday, I experienced a little bit of that. I tweeted a video from Dr. Michael Greger from his nutrition facts.org website on coconut oil and coconut oil has been in the news and opinions on coconut oil range from miracle cure all food to, you know, artery clogging disease provoking food. It's going to kill you. It'll kill you immediately. And the video that I tweeted kind of addressed the saturated fat aspects of it

and gave people pause who maybe were on the miracle cure-all side of the equation. And there was an emotional response. And I didn't plan on writing a blog post yesterday, but the response was so immediate and kind of severe, again, getting back to the heightened emotion around these things that I felt like I had to explain myself. And so I ended up writing this long blog post on the subject. You can check it out on richworld.com. But anyway, it's not so much about that specifically. It's more about our emotional relationship with food

or to these sort of camps. You know, if you're in the paleo camp, you think this, and if you're in the plant-based camp, you think that, and I identify with that, and that's my team. And I think we lose the bigger picture. Well, right. So, I mean, that's a perfect example to begin with. So let's just, let's begin with coconut oil. So what I mean, that's a perfect example to begin with. So let's just, let's begin with coconut oil. So what's your relationship to coconut oil? How do you feel about just you personally ritual? How do you feel about, okay, so we're going to go, we're going to get into just quickly, just, you know, not too deeply, but I'm just, I'm just presenting a, you know, or, or I can just say for myself, you know, well, let me just say how I feel too. First,

just say for myself, you know? Well, let me just say how I feel too first. As I explained in the blog post, I do eat coconut oil. I put it in some of my Vitamix smoothies, which are predominantly vegetable based. And I like to put it on my skin as I know that you do. And there are some good properties about it. Yes, it is a saturated fat. It is one of the few plant-based foods that has a significant amount of saturated fat in it. It does have some good properties in that it is anti-inflammatory as opposed to animal saturated fat. It's also anti-infectious and that kind of takes you down a whole road of the people that start espousing miracle cures associated with it and i think there is some research on that i wouldn't consider myself fully uh up to speed on all of that um so i don't discount it out of hand as

being terrible but i think it's also important to understand that it's incredibly calorie dense. And aside from, and well, I should also say that a substantial portion of the saturated fat in coconut oil is something called lauric acid. And that is a very, it's a, it's on the easier side of being metabolized by your body. So if you're eating it, uh, it's, it's a quick and facile energy source for you, unless you're taking it at the same time with a lot of sugar, which will kind of hijack your system and your body will end up using that instead of the fat, you'll end up packing it on. But, uh, you know, I'll use it in the morning before a workout, just, you know, half a tablespoon or something like that. But getting back to the saturated fat aspect of it, it's very calorie dense. And other than the saturated fat in it, there really aren't any other nutrients. Like if you look at a nutrition label,

it doesn't have it. It's not a significant source of any other nutrients, which means it's, if you ask Jeff Novick, who's a registered dietitian, who's part of the whole engine to Forks Over Knives crew, and I've spent some time with him and trust his opinion. He wrote an article on this as well, which is linked in my blog post. He will tell you that, hey, listen, you know, just be aware that it's very high in fat and there isn't, you're not getting too much else out of it. So if you're poor of health or you have heart disease or you're at risk for heart disease or you're overweight or any of the like, you probably shouldn't have this.

If you are training like I do and you're fit and you're active and your blood tests show that you're in good shape and all and you know in all contexts then you know have a little coconut oil but just be aware it you know and it's not going to cure all your diseases right so have a reasoned approach to it i guess is what i'm saying so that that feels very balanced and you know same thing with me you know i don't know i don't have all of that information in you you know, all that technical information, but I know for me vibrationally, it feels good for me in a couple uses. I use it on my body sometimes, not all the time. I usually use hemp oil or sesame oil more frequently because of my body type. And that's... You mean on your skin?

On my skin. You mean, so you're lathering it you're putting it on not eating it no i'll put it on my body and a lot of times um i will oil my body at different times if it's very cold outside i'm very i'm a very thin person and so um sometimes i'm very sensitive to wind or if i fly i can be very sensitive um to those kind of energetics. So putting oil, rubbing oil on the skin actually creates a barrier and is a form of protection for basically my system to remain calm and peaceful. So I use it in that application, and I use it in a few of my recipes, a few blends, and in chia seed.

And occasionally I also do cook with it because it sustains at very, very high heat. Yeah, it's the better oil to cook with because it doesn't oxidize as easily. It retains its structure at high heat. So it's a better cooking oil if you're going to cook with oil. If you're going to.

So the thing is, is that it's an approach that I have formulated for myself. I'm not out flying a flag for coconut oil or criticizing or judging other people if they choose not to use it. And so to me, it's like it brings back the self-responsibility. And this is sort of this key element element of of of what i think is really really important for all of us right now and is to to take self-responsibility for your choices and for the life you're living and the things that you choose to experience and it's your life it's not my life it's not anyone else life. So make sure that you know who you are or that you're at least attempting to find that out and express that and support that in the way that is best for you.

But people like to join a team. I know. Not me. Yeah, you don't. How come? You don't. How come? I don't know. I guess I was just, I was never made like that. I don't know. I was never picked to be on a team. I was, I mean, I work really well with others. I mean, I had a garment company.

I had 15 subcontractors and I worked with teams of people. I can very respectfully and efficiently work with people and honor them. It's not that, but it's sort of like the whole sports thing. And, and I'm sorry, cause I know it's a huge thing and you know, people love it, but I always found it humorous that,

um, people would watch a team so closely and then almost take credit for the game as if they had participated in it or criticize it or judge it. That's watching a team as opposed to being a member of a team. Well, I'm just participating. Exactly. Exactly. I don't know.

I mean, it just, maybe it just wasn't, it just wasn't how I was made, but I know other people enjoy it. It's just not how I made. Right. Yeah. All right. You're your own team. My own team.

But you're not really a team person either. You wanted to be. Well, I mean, I guess, yeah yeah but i'm like part of the part of the plant-based team right so there's a team aspect of that right and a loyalty to that right and you know i believe in eating a plant-based diet of course it's what I'm all about, but I do also have to be aware, like, okay, so I'm part of this team, and is it my responsibility to be rah-rah on behalf of this group? And I suppose on some level it is. is. But if I was to come upon some sort of research or something that convinced me otherwise, or that I was making the wrong choice, it's important for me to be open to that and remain open and not be so myopic to think that I'm on this team and no matter what happens or no matter

what you put in front of me, I'm never going to waver. Right, right. Well, yeah. Well, that goes back to being authentic, right? Like I always said for myself, if I, you know, I don't like to create rules and boundaries around myself because it, uh, it creates a sort of bondage or some, or sort of feeling to me like I'm trapped or I like to leave everything open so I can spontaneously move in my life and flow. Like I like to say flow with the flow. So I see. So at this point in my life, I am not eating animal flesh. I do not see that arising for me in the future. But if I did wake up one day and I got the very clear message that I needed to for some reason, I would do it with consciousness and awareness and I would eat it like medicine.

I'm not going to say that I will not absolutely do something. I don't know because things change and environments change and people have different issues they're dealing with and you just don't know. It's a matter of how in tune with yourself are you, you know, and honoring that journey. Again, it's all about you. It's about you and you. And that's wise, but it also drives me crazy when you're like that because you'll wake up in the morning. I mean, this is the way Julie operates.

She'll wake up in the morning and I'll say, okay, so what are you doing today? Julie operates, she'll wake up in the morning and I'll say, okay, so what are you doing today? And, you know, whereas I have my calendar and I'm scheduled and I know I'm going to be doing X, Y, and Z at this time, and then I'm going to go here and then I'm going to see that guy. Julie will say, I don't know. I'll just, I got to see how I feel. You know, I'm like, how do you live that way? Understand that. It's just very different. Yeah. It's two, two, two different approaches that, that both work, you know, and you're also, you're also able to do like 10 things at once where I really honestly can only operate when I'm really focused on one thing, I get it done. And then I

move on to the next one. I try to multitask or do different things at the same time. All I do is end up frustrated and performing poorly. Yeah, it's true. It's true. But you know, you're also extremely efficient and extremely, you know, ultra at a task when you, I call you an ultra, when you put your mind to something, you can really go deeply into it. And yeah, I'm, I'm, you know, I'm, I'm one of those people. I read, you know, five books at one time from the middle. Not only that, she gets a book and then she comes home and then she'll sit in the bathtub and open

the book, the brand new book to the middle and just start reading. Like she doesn't even say, I want to read this chapter. She just opens it up to whatever random page and starts reading. And then she'll just do that 20 times and then she'll say, okay, I read that book. What is that? That is the strangest thing that I've ever seen. It's just different. Yeah. All right.

What? No, it's been, it's, it's extraordinary how many times, how without fail, I will open the book to exactly the appropriate message or a bit of information that I need exactly at that moment. It's happened like thousands of times. Did that happen with Fifty Shades of Grey? I didn't read that. I know, I'm making a joke

because the book, she doesn't read novels. She gets these, I don't know what they are. What would you call it? Spiritual texts. Yeah, until recently. I read a couple of books recently. You did? Yeah. I read a couple books recently. You did? Yeah.

I can't remember the titles now, though. I know. No. No, you read some music bios, I think. I did. You read Keith Richards' book. I did. Actually, and right now I'm reading Out of Africa, actually, by Isaac Dennison, because she's a huge hero of mine.

All right. I want to shift gears here. Okay. It's your show. Let's talk about Valentine's day. Let's do that. What, excuse me. What wonderful, uh, what wonderful surprise do you have for me on Thursday? I think we talked about this a little bit on new Year's Day, where we were talking about holidays in general. And I'd said that in the pantheon of holidays that New Year's Day is on the better side or maybe the best because it's all sort of marshalling us to make a decision on how we can be better. But the rest of the holidays and Valentine's Day in particular just sticks in my craw. I can't stand it. Really? You haven't ordered a dozen roses for me? Yeah. I think that 1-800-Flowers or ProFlowers is probably not going to be a sponsor of this show. I'm so bummed.

No. So it just drives me crazy that there's this holiday where we're legislated to go out and buy a gift and honor the person that we're with on a specific date. And it's, it's completely rigged to, you can, you can only screw it up, right? Because, okay, I'll fulfill this thing that, you know, I'm supposed to do because the greeting card companies say that I have to, and if I don't do it, I'm going to have to suffer through some, you know, issue or not really disappointment because you're not like that, but just, it's like, I have to do this. And all you can do is kind of hit a single or hit a double and go, okay, I did it.

Unless you're going to do something incredibly crazy and insane and extravagant. Are you holding your breath? No, no, no. I mean, I agree with you. First of all, but I'm sure there are many people that do a bang-up job of Valentine's Day. And I want to encourage all the people to love their lovers and do whatever they want to do. But Rich and I are kind of odd.

Well, it's become more about the kids, I think, right now. Well, that's different. I mean, that's like a different thing. That's different. I'm just talking about between you and me. Just between you and me. If I brought home a box of chocolates for you even if they were vegan chocolates you would just look at me and start laughing it would be ridiculous I would but if you did that on another

day or you did that right or you know I would the power of flowers let me tell you like the power of flowers what is that though it's the same thing with diamonds and I don't get it no but I'm not a diamond girl either right I mean not into them so um no no no but flowers diamonds and I don't get it. No, but I'm not a diamond girl either, right? I mean, not into them. So, no, no, no. But flowers are so, I don't know, they're so beautiful and they're living and they're gorgeous. Yeah, but if I brought home flowers for you, just, you know, the typical dozen or half a dozen roses and gave them to you on Valentine's Day, you'd be like, yeah, all right. Yeah, but not- You did the thing.

Yeah. You know, I mean- Because it doesn't- It wouldn't mean anything to you. Well, exactly. Exactly. I mean right yeah but you did the thing yeah you know i mean because it doesn't it wouldn't mean anything to you well exactly exactly i mean it yeah you're right it kind of it's kind of a setup you know we've been together for 13 years 14 years or what it's different it's 14 i guess what anniversary are we having this year i don't know is it 10 or 9 well do you count it from when we when we got married when we got married, when we got married? Yeah. That is,

that will be 10, I believe. Okay. See, we don't even know how long we've been married. That's a whole nother thing. The 10th. No,

but, um, but I think, you know, yeah, bringing flowers home unexpectedly on any day is always a fantastic move. And I encourage you to do that more in your life. Maybe it'd be better to mark Valentine's Day on your calendar on some secret other day

and just not tell your partner that you've decided silently to yourself that that's Valentine's Day and do it. And then it's unexpected and then it will be more impactful. Yeah, it's a surprise and it's, yeah, I agree. But everybody's gonna go out and spend a bunch of money on Valentine's Day.

And it's like, ah, we did the thing. We're not going to though. What are we doing? Nothing. What's your idea of a perfect Valentine's Day date? I don't know. You don't know? I know what it is.

What? You go on a really long training ride. How about that? There's my wife. She goes, you should train on valentine's day you should train and then i'll go in the studio and write you a love song and record it and then we can go to yoga and cafe gratitude and have some intimate time that sounds nice that's it should we bring the podcasting equipment equipment? Why not? You could tweet about it. I know, yeah.

We could Instagram and the whole thing. Anyway, so, but it is Valentine's Day and, you know, love's a good thing. And so, I love you, honey. Absolutely. Happy Valentine's Day, sweetie. Happy Valentine's Day. Right. It's just the whole gift thing and

the whole rule book that comes along with it that i guess sits with me well we usually we usually do do something you know possibly like later like you know later in the weekend or the next week or something we usually intentionally skip that day right that's what we usually do except the kids we have a little we do it for the kids too so let's talk about creativity uh julie is a font of creativity she does not have any specific art form that she uh focuses all of her energy on. It sort of is expressed across a multitude of endeavors from, she's an amazing artist and painter and drawer. She's an incredible sculptor.

She's made some amazing sculptures that we have in our house. She's painted most of the paintings that are in our house. She's working on finishing her second album. So she has, you know, music, fine arts, and, you know, food is an expression of her art and just her lifestyle in general. And she's very free and open and kind of like this channel for open creative energy. And I think most people, myself included, when I met her, are really closed off creatively. And we tend to think of creativity in the context of art and artists, whether you're a musician or what have you, whether you're a writer, painter, filmmaker. whether you're a writer, painter, filmmaker.

But honestly, I think it's worth taking a step back and looking at creativity in its broadest sense. And we all have creative energy inside of us, and to be able to unleash it and express it in our life, whether you work in a cubicle at an insurance company or whatever it is that you do, you work in a cubicle at an insurance company or whatever it is that you do, the ability to enhance and actualize that creative voice inside of you, I think is a good path and recipe for being happier and a more fully expressed human. And I've experienced that myself.

I learned how to bring creativity into my law practice, into my training in racing, and essentially everything that I do. But I think a lot of people are blocked, and maybe they're not connected to their creativity, or they have an innate desire to express themselves in some way that is maybe different from what they spend most of their time doing. But they just say, well, I don't have time, and I don't know how to do that, and where do I even begin? And I'm not creative. I'm not an artist. And they compare themselves to some painting on the wall or some screenplay they read or movie they saw or song you know, song they heard on the radio and say, well, I'm just not talented. And, you know, I'll just keep doing what I'm doing and remain under expressed. So what I wanted to get into is some of the things that might be helpful that

Julie can help with to unlock that a little bit. Okay. Well, it's funny because I was going through sort of another redefinition of what I want to express in my life. Really, since we got back from Kauai, I've just been really going inside and meditating and really spending time with myself, you know, writing, meditating, singing, really trying to get clear really on what is the central core of my expression. And, you know, because I do so many things, it can be very confusing. You know, I could go probably 15 different ways with the energy that I'm working with. And the one thing, uh, that I want to share and I think is relevant to everyone is that, you know, as I kept getting behind the different, um,

uh, roles or, or as, uh, Byron Davis would call them your backslashes. So he was like, you're embracing your backslash because you're a mother backslash yogi backslash chef. So, um, but I kept going behind, you know, behind and behind and behind. And I, and I really kept getting to that. There is this, you know, divine through line, this core of spiritual connection that really is creativity. And for me, creativity is spiritual energy. Same with sexuality. You know, it's, it's a, it's a pure spiritual energy that we all have and that we all are connected to. And so, you know, as I was considering, well, you know, I could come out with a program that could teach people how to get in touch with their creativity.

That is, and I certainly can do that and I certainly can share some of those techniques even right now on the podcast. But for me, the very beginning of it, the beginning of it is, is accessing that connection that you were created from a divine space in a perfect blueprint that carries with it a certain imprint. So translate that into...

Okay, so, well, you could just say, there's a couple things. So what I found in my life is, you know, you meet a lot of people that say, okay, you know, well, I'm not creative. Yeah, I'm just not creative. You know, I can't draw, I can't sing, I can't do, you know, I'm just not creative. And really what's happened is sometime in their school life or sometime in their family life, they made something and somebody judged it and made fun of them and shut them down. And so... Or they self-judged themselves. Possibly, but most likely, I mean, children at a child, it could be, but most likely someone else said something, you know, most likely, unfortunately. But so, I mean, I taught art in preschool and when my boys were little as a

volunteer and, you know, I love to go in there and, you know, the kids already at age four had decided in their mind that an apple needed to be drawn a specific way. Like this was a good apple and this was a bad apple. If this apple was a little shaky or blurry or messy, then that wasn't good. And something that was very perfect was really good. So one of the things that I used to do is I used to start with clay and just have everybody sculpt, you know, whatever the object was. I think we did, you know, we did a golden retriever once or something. And then we would look at all of them. And every human being, everybody has a different thumb, like a different hand. It's the pressure and the way it molds and the way it comes out. way it molds and the way it comes out. And it's actually a great place to start if you haven't done anything creative, you know, to get your hands in clay and start working with that. And you'll see that everybody has a voice. And then, you know, I would ask the kids, you know, is this a better dog or is that a better dog? And they would always go to the one that was more perfectly

expressed, like more realistically expressed, guess i would say and i would always tell them no as a matter of fact they're both equally as beautiful because in art there's no there's no you know you don't rate it like that it it comes from the heart and it's got an expression and it in a resonance all right that's fine. But let's say you're a 45-year-old man at work. I want you to go back to preschool. Are you telling him you should go get some clay and pretend he's in preschool?

No, I'm just talking about what we all have to realize. And this is something else that I've protected in my own house, my children are not allowed to mock or make fun of anybody's creative expression. Even if you're singing completely off-key, we don't subscribe to that you can't express yourself. And everything is supported, everything is sort of nurtured. Now I understand people haven't come from those environments necessarily, but I guess the first step is realizing that you are a divine being and you do have a creative expression inside of you.

It doesn't mean you're going to be Monet. I'm not saying that, but I'm saying everybody has something to share. And so the first step with feeling safe in sharing it is to stop judging or being afraid or judging yourself or even others. So it's getting to that neutral place of even allowing yourself to pick the pencil up in the first place or begin. So that right there is step one. begin. So that right there is, is, you know, step one. I also think an important step one is putting distance between you and the story that you tell about yourself. And if I think back to when I first met you and I was working, I was sort of on the tail end of being a corporate lawyer in a big firm. And if I met, if I was to meet you or anyone else and somebody said, what do you do?

I'd say, I'm a lawyer. That's who I am. That's what I do. That's how I define myself by my job. And the other person will make a judgment, good or bad about that. And that is how I presented myself to the world as this one thing, because that's kind of the way we work as a society, right? Everybody has their thing and

it's usually their profession. And when somebody says, what do you do? That's the appropriate answer. And I think I remember when I met you, I said, what do you do? And you just looked at me confused. Like, I don't even know what you're asking me. You know, what do I do? You know, what do I do? Well, I do this, I do that, I do that. And you didn't have, I guess what I'm trying to say is you didn't have a label.

I'm an artist, I'm a this, I'm a that, I'm a, you know, garment designer. I'm, you know, you had all of these things that you did and you had an expanded idea of yourself that extended beyond how you made a living or how you made money. So it's sort of having a more global perspective on you as a comprehensive human being that is much more than your job, which is so easy, especially for men. That's how we define ourselves. Of course. Which is so easy, especially for men. That's how we define ourselves. So I think a first step is taking a step back and saying, yes, I do this for a living, but I have more to offer than this. And probing within yourself to try to say, well, how can I express more of myself outside the sort of four walls or construct of my job? What is it that's deep down inside me that's underexpressed that would give me fulfillment if I could breathe life into

that? And maybe you don't know the answer. I certainly didn't. It's been a long journey to, you know, from where I was when I met you to sitting here doing this podcast, which is completely bizarre and unpredictable. And that's the beauty of it at the same time. So I think it's also important to understand that it's easy to look at people that are in touch with their creativity as just these fonts of energy that are spewing beautiful things out of their brain or mouth at all hours of the day. And it looks easy. You say, my God, I watched that movie. That director is touched. Or I heard that song and she was just born that way. You know, there's,

there's no way I could do that. And, and, and to understand that creativity, yes, of course, some people are more gifted than others. They have natural talents that are woven into their genetic material. But even those people and the 99.99% of the rest of the world that is expressing something creatively, and because we live in Los Angeles, there's a lot of creative people doing creative things. And you realize that it's still a, it's a practice and it's something that you have to work at. Even if you have talent, whether you have talent or you don't have talent, you have to work at it. It's a daily practice,

just like medic meditation, just like training for an Iron Man or training for a marathon. You have to work at it every day. And I'll use an example. I have a very good friend who I hope to have on the podcast at one point. His name is Sasha Gervasi, and he's a writer-director here in Hollywood. He just had a movie come out recently. It was the biopic about Alfred Hitchcock called Hitchcock. Known him for many years. He's extremely talented. He's incredibly dynamic and engaging.

It's easy to be in awe of his wit and his ability to churn a phrase and write a screenplay. He truly has something that most people don't. But I've also, I know him well enough to know how hard he works at it. And this is a guy who gets up every day and before he does anything else, he does his morning pages for The Artist's Way. He does his journaling. He treats it like sacred ground, and this is part of his creative process. That's not writing his screenplays per se, but that is his work because he knows that he has to tend to that as a way to continue to develop and tap into his creative self. It's a nurturing thing for him. So there are all sorts of things that he does on a daily basis to sort of water his field of creativity so that he can be expressed.

Yes. And he has this unwavering focus and knowing within himself. I mean, he is- Right. It starts with, yeah, sorry, I didn't mean to step on you, but yeah, it starts with inside. Yeah. He's completely connected to who he is. Right, it starts with... Yeah, sorry, I didn't mean to step on you. But yeah, it starts with inside. Yeah, he's completely connected to who he is. He is courageous. He is willing to take risks.

And he puts himself out there and he puts the work in there. And he is delightfully charming and infectious and just a love of a being. And he deserves every single thing that he's experienced you know but i think that the thing is is that it's easy to look at that and go oh well he's just gifted and it comes easy and that's not the full picture you know he works very very hard as do most people to be able to express themselves but like yeah, the work goes into connecting with your inside, your insides, developing a greater connection with who you are as a human being so that when you are trying to express yourself, it is authentic because it is who you really are.

I guess this sounds really ephemeral. No, it doesn't. I mean, it doesn't to me. But I mean, the thing is, yeah, exactly what I was saying. So the thing is, maybe as a human being, you can't accept that you could actually have the ability to express those things. But what I'm saying is, when you remember that you are a divine being and you have access to anything you want in the universe. You know, it's the same energy that Sasha has access to in a little different, you know, individuation.

But what I want to say is that one of the key things that I discovered in my life is that if you can see it in someone else, okay, if you can see a quality or a genius in someone else, it means you have that genius inside of yourself. So yeah, the very ability to see it means- But I can see the genius in LeBron James. Yeah, and you have some aspect inside of yourself. I mean, maybe it's not the exact same thing, but it is, that is, that is a truth. You know, you cannot recognize something that you do not know. So, and that, that, that includes for positive and negative. I mean, if you're, if you're saying something, you know, or seeing something judgmental in another being or you're judging somebody, you have that with inside yourself.

And that's why it's poking, pushing that button so hard. So being able to see it in another, it's like being a shadow artist, right? So shadow artists are people that, and you've, I think you identify with this a lot. Yeah. I've walked that path, but explain to people what a shadow artist is. It's, it's a term that's used in Julia Cameron's, the artist way, which is a book that I've talked about a number of times on the podcast, which is a program, a book and a program for tapping into yourself and becoming a better, more actualized expression of yourself. Yes, and a shadow artist.

Unlocking your creativity. So shadow artist. Well, a shadow artist is being somebody that sees the genius in all these other artists and you sort of idolize and worship these different, whoever it may be a musician a director and an artist a painter whatever it is and the thing is is that you you really have that within yourself but you've been unable to allow yourself to usually it's because you're fear blocked and you don't think that you can do it yourself so you find a career where you get to be around all

those people in some kind of service capacity, but you're not actually doing it yourself. It's a safe way of being in the world you really want to be in without taking the risk of doing it yourself or trying. Absolutely. And so how in your life have you been a shadow artist? Like pick one area. Oh, well, I mean, a perfect example is I was in love with filmmaking and the creative process of filmmaking. But instead of taking the risk to be a writer or a director, which I thought that I wanted to be at that time, I became an entertainment lawyer. So in that capacity, I got to be around all those creative, interesting people that I was attracted to and had something inside of me that kind of wanted to be doing that. But I was doing, you know, I was being their lawyer, I was doing their deals. And so it was safe, you know, it's like, oh, I can get paid and I can be over here and I don't have to take the risk that those people have taken and put themselves

out there to do that. I can just be safely over here in the shadow and kind of, you know, pretend that I'm part of the world that really I'm not, cause I'm not really doing that. Right. Right. Yeah. And then later, that's a perfect shadow artist analogy or example. And then later you did end up directing your own short film. We did direct a short film. It's a good time. So we could talk about that a little bit.

Yeah, why not? It's awesome. Yeah, it's funny. So as I explained in the book, Finding Ultra, listen, if you haven't read this book, should they read this book? I think if you're listening to the podcast, you should read the book. If you're listening to the podcast, you probably read the book. You should read the book. But if you haven't, you can find it on Amazon. If you click on the Amazon banner ad on richroll.com and get it there, it's pretty cheap.

It's on Kindle, Nook, hard copy, hard cover, hard cover, and audio book, which I read read i did the audio book so that's right yeah if you haven't if you haven't checked it out and it's easy to find but anyway in the book i i talk about meeting julie and we met in a yoga class and there was a period in time where i was immersed in that world and julie's very much a part of the the yoga scene in West LA, which is quite the subculture. I mean, this is back in 1999. Something like that. And it was much more at the beginning of what has now become far more mainstream

than it was back then. Now it's everywhere. But West LA, you know, Brentwood, Santa Monica, Venice is really this kind of vortex of the yoga movement and the ascendancy of the yoga teacher as rock star. And so there are these yoga teachers that kind of propagate the West side that have these cult-like followings of people that follow them around and just talk about them incessantly. And they achieve this guru-like status, which is pretty hilarious because most of them are guys that wanted to be actors and it didn't work out and they kind of reinvent themselves as yoga teachers.

And that's not to say that they're not good at it. There's a lot of great yoga teachers and I've gotten a lot out of being in many of these classes and, you know, with many of these teachers. But you're dealing with a population that's predominantly women, well-heeled women, Brentwood housewives and young actresses and, you know, everything from movie stars and TV and all that kind of stuff who go to these yoga classes. And it just creates an environment that I've never seen anywhere else. myself balanced when I was trying to integrate back into society and kind of navigating the pitfalls and the hot button things to stay sober. And yoga helped a lot. So I started going to this class and the added benefit of which it was the most highly concentrated population of hot women in one room. Like you'd go into this room, pretty small studio about the size of this garage. And it would be, it wasn't that there was no men,

there were a few, a couple of gay guys, me and a couple other dudes. And then all hot women. This is the greatest thing. This is the greatest discovery. You know, I can't even believe it. all hot women. And I thought, this is the greatest thing. This is the greatest discovery. You know, I can't even believe it.

You know, it's better than any, than any bar that I used to go to when I was drinking. But sort of journeying through that. And, and there, there's so much humor that came up. Yeah.

And the other part of the humor is, is that when we're seeking for something greater than ourselves it's human nature to want to give your power over to somebody else that knows more than you do it's it's this really hilarious kind of um step along the journey you know and and it's and it's a necessary step and it's to be honored and uh and you know you go through it and it's and you learn a lot of stuff, but, you know, you want, you want somebody else to give it to you. You want someone else to have a wand and hit you on the head and go, ping, okay, you know, you're realized and you figured it out. Or to approve of you or to tell you you're on the right track, just keep following me.

Right. It's very seductive. And, you know, some of these individuals know that it's very seductive. And so they're playing with, you know, power, they're abusing power. And, but it's all part of the play and part of, you know, getting to the core and actually, you know, finding out that you need to, you know, claim your own power and, you know, stand in yourself. And so on the way, I wrote, I decided I was going to write a script. And so I have no training in writing at all. And I think I took a writer's boot camp. Yeah, of course. I went to Jeff Gordon School, a writer's boot camp in Santa Monica. Very dear friend of mine and Rich is now. But I took his screenwriting, I think it was like six-week screenwriting course. Yeah, it's a six-week program. It's a fantastic screenwriting program that our friend offers, Jeff Gordon. It's called Writer's Bootcamp. If you want to write a script,

you should go to this bootcamp. I think they have online programs now too. So I did that and I just sort of spit out, I remember it was a 96- script and we were in Italy. We had gone to Italy and we were producing yoga retreats at the time. And we were on one of our trips with Steve Ross over there. We would take like 30 people. Who's one of the well-known yoga teachers and the yoga teacher who had the class where I met Julie.

Yeah. Amazing. And he's actually extremely, extremely, uh, devoted yogi. Um, and quite hilariously, he teaches yoga to, uh, funk and hip hop. Uh, so go figure. Um, well, it's interesting because he gets a lot of grief, uh, because he plays, you know, rock music in his class and ridiculously, at least, I don't know, I haven't been in a long time, so I don't know what his class is like now, but at the time back in the late nineties and early two thousands, it was kind of a C and B scene class. And so it got labeled as, you know,

oh, if you want, you know, yoga light or fake yoga, go to Steve's class. But we've actually gotten to know Steve quite well and have spent a lot of time with him and hung out at his house with him. And honestly, of all the yoga teachers that I've met, and there's a lot, that guy walks his walk more than anybody I've met. I mean, literally, if he doesn't have to teach, he will sit in his house and the guy will eat raw food and meditate all day long and no TV, no connection to pop culture and just lives an incredibly simple life, minimal, sustainable way of living and has very few needs or wants. He lives close to where he works and is probably one of the most happy people I've ever met. Yeah, we had a lot of happy trips with him. And his teaching method, I think the thing that people say, sorry, I keep stepping on you. I didn't mean to do that, but I just had a thought.

One of the things that people sort of criticize him about is, well, he doesn't really teach. It's a very laissez-faire approach to his class. He puts the music on, he walks around and he takes you through the poses, but he doesn't really instruct. You know, he's not going to come up and say, move your foot one way this way, you know, pull your butt in or whatever. He doesn't do any of that. So people say, well, he's not even teaching, but actually I've come to realize that he's taking a much, like a more enlightened approach to teaching because he's allowing everybody to have their process and he's not interfering with that. Right. So you get in the pose and wherever you are in the pose is where you are. So he doesn't use props or won't adjust anybody. You know, he's basically just, and he doesn't judge anybody either. No. So it's, it's, it's very, very open.

So it's interesting. So anyway, back to your story, we're in Italy with Steve, you were producing this yoga retreat there. You had written the script. Yeah. And I was asking you to co-write it with me and to make it, to, to make it good because it wasn't good. it was sort of the broad strokes were there and you were kind of because there's a lot of comedy in this world and you saw you said oh my god this this world is ripe for it was right comedy it's ridiculous the stuff i've just the stuff i've seen you wouldn't believe it no and we were having these retreats and and i and i was laughing with the comedy. I was part of the comedy.

So it's not like, um, you know, I, I'm a deep, deep lover of yoga and always will be. And it's a huge, huge part of my life. And it's also hilarious. Right. It is. And you got to be able to laugh at it, which Steve can, and a lot of teachers can't. Right. So we're very, I call them the angry yogis that are very serious about the whole thing. But anyway, so I think we were there. I can remember some vision of me out on a terrace in Tuscany and me begging you to do this, to step in and write the script and do it. And I think you were having some kind of resistance. I was having a shadow artist moment. I think you were having some kind of resistance. I was having a shadow artist moment.

I think you were having a shadow artist. And I think I kind of tossed it at you and said, either step up and write it or I'm going to take it to somebody else and do it. And I think that was... In other words, you scared me. And I exited. I think I did a dramatic exit.

Left or right, I'm not sure. So I picked this thing up and then I approached it the way that I approached Ultraman training and completely lost myself in this screenplay for like two years. Two years you wrote it. Yeah. And, uh,

and, uh, actually it's really funny, but anyway, uh, we were trying to figure out what to do with it and we had it was it was i think it was my idea i don't want to take credit away from you you can take an idea it's fine i said this is great i'm and i had been doing the artist way trying to tap into you know this creative voice

i was enjoying writing the screenplay i was starting to hit a stride with it and I felt like it could really work. And the idea occurred to me that it would be great to direct it, which is insane. You know, that's as insane as me saying, I'm going to get off the couch and do Ultraman. It's like a pipe dream, right? Like how can you can't direct a movie? You never directed anything. You've never written anything. This isn't even your profession. Right. But I thought, no, I want to direct this. But the way Hollywood works is no one's going to let you direct a movie, you know, so you're going to have to establish that you're capable of doing something like that. So we came up with the idea of doing a short film that would be its own standalone project comedy, but would be a calling card for doing the real project later. So we worked really hard on

creating a short film script that stood on its own, a version of Down Dog that was based on the big script. It wasn't like shooting a scene from the movie. It was like its own story. And we made that movie. We shot it for three days and created a 20-minute, 22-minutes, I think it came out, so it's on the longer side of short films, a 22-minute film called Down Dog, and it ended up getting into 25 film festivals. We won Best Film at a bunch of film festivals, and it was an amazing experience.

This was back in 2005, film festivals and it was an amazing experience this was back in 2005 um and it was a great moment in realizing like stepping out of that shadow artist role of being hey i'm the lawyer to the creative people but i'm not a creative person and saying no actually now i'm going to do this and and taking that risk and stepping out into the unknown and doing something that scared the heck out of me. I mean, directing a film. Are you kidding? We shot it with a 35 millimeter camera. I mean, it was a real movie camera.

It wasn't like we didn't do it on the flip cam with a little video camera. We had a full crew at our house. And I called in a bunch of favors and just worked it on the phone and got all these people to show up and work hard and did it on the phone and got all these people to show up and work hard. Did it on a super tight budget.

And a lot of people worked really hard for free. Yeah, they were amazing. They believed in the project and we were so passionate about it. And it was an amazing experience. It was incredibly creatively fulfilling. And really a victory of transcending that shadow artist hat. Absolutely. Absolutely. So a powerful example that I carried with me into the things that we're now doing. I mean,

ultimately, I didn't end up, we still have to finish telling that story. I made a decision, I didn't want to continue to pursue that. I mean, maybe I will again, you know, at some point, I don't know, but, but, but you can watch the short on Vimeo, but yeah, well, I'll put the, let me finish telling the story first, but the sort of, you know, takeaway is that was very empowering because it showed me that I can step outside of the shadow artist role and do something that scared me, see it through. You know, I worked very hard, so it wasn't easy, but see it through. And the satisfaction that came with that was something that, that allowed me to believe in myself when I decided, Hey, I'm going to do Ultraman, you know, which sounded it's, it's, it's very similar to saying, Hey, I'm going to do Ultraman, you know, which sounded, it's very similar to saying,

hey, I'm going to write a script and direct a movie because they're both equally lunatic and daunting and so outside of my comfort zone or what I thought that I could achieve. But because I had done this thing with the short film, I knew that if I applied that focus and believed in myself and surrounded myself with people that would believe in me as well, that I had a shot at achieving that. So it was actually very, now that I'm thinking about it, I'm realizing just how impactful that experience was. But getting back to it, so we make this short film.

We tour around and go to all these film festivals. And meanwhile, writing and rewriting the feature script saying, you know, now we're in a position to get this movie made and worked really hard. And actually I got my, I needed some help taking the script to the next level. So I recruited my buddy, Drew, who's a writer and a college swimming friend of mine, former roommate of mine from Stanford, who lives in Boston. And he took a crack on working on the script with me, and we kind of took it to the next level and got it into a position where it was a very commercial, very funny feature script, the kind of movie that would star Will Ferrell as Guru Dave, the character in the movie is Guru Dave, who's the philandering yoga teacher to the stars and basically can't walk

his walk. He's lacking in authenticity, right? And so hijinks ensue and all the kind of comedy that comes up in the yoga world, the physical comedy and, you know, the sort of, you've seen it in TV shows and commercials now all the time. They hint at that kind of comedy that you find in that yoga world. But the script's actually really, really funny. And we had a moment where for five minutes, it looked like we had a decent shot at having Matthew McConaughey. We thought we were going to make a movie for five minutes. For five minutes it looked like we had a decent shot at having matthew we thought we were going to make a movie for five minutes for five minutes it looked like we were going to be making a movie with matthew mcconaughey starring as guru dave we were we were close that his uh production company jk living was really interested in the script uh in fact one of the development execs

said it was their favorite script they had read all year. And they were looking to find a good comedy for Matthew. And it seemed like the stars were all lining up, which is insane, right? Like that that could possibly happen. And then a series of events occurred, which is what happens in Hollywood. I mean, I think people out there who aren't familiar with the way the movie business works,

you think, oh, you write a script, you sell it, the movie gets made, and it comes out in the theater. But that's not really what happens. You know, lots of scripts are bought, zillions of scripts are developed, very, very few get turned into movies. It's a long, long road, and it's a trail of tears and heartbreak

at every step of the game. And what happened was- I want it really badly. This was at the time when Matthew McConaughey was doing his first independent movie in a long time, Surfer Dude, which was kind of his project that his production company was producing. And the character in Surfer Dude ended up being a little bit too similar

to the Guru Dave character. There was a lot of being a little bit too similar to the guru Dave character. There was a lot of overlap also in the narrative of the script. There was a narrative through line that was similar to what was happening in that movie surfer dude, surfer dude came out and it didn't do very well. It didn't, it didn't perform at the box office.

Then Mike Myers came out with that movie right afterwards. It came out with that, the love guru, right? Which is extreme, very, Mike Myers came out with that movie right afterwards. He came out with that, The Love Guru. Right. Which is very, very different from Down Dog. And that was the first Mike Myers flop. Like that movie did horrible at the box office. Why?

Because it wasn't funny. It wasn't good. It wasn't funny. But it had these kind of yoga guru overtones to it where suddenly our project that all these people found compelling and viable suddenly was no longer viable. Because who is going to make a movie about a philandering yoga teacher when the love guru bombed? It's never going to happen. So the script went into a drawer

and it's still sitting in that drawer. So anyway, maybe it will be resurfacing after this podcast. I don't know. That would be funny. But anyway, we'll put a link up to the Down Dog short in the show notes to the podcast on richworld.com. Check it out. If you have 20 minutes, because it is a longer short film, we'd love for you to check it out and let us know what you think. Because it was really fun to make and audiences seem to enjoy it. And I put it up on Vimeo a long time ago,

but I never really advertised that we did this or had this. And I think at one point I mentioned it to Jason walk up at mind, body green in an offhanded manner. I think they on mind, body green, they had posted something about somebody else who'd made a little short, uh, film that was a yoga parody. And I said, Hey Jason, you know, we, we made this movie and he didn't know. And they ended up putting it on mind, body green. He's like, why you made a movie to you Ultraman,

but you also made this movie. Like, who are you? You know? And they put it on their site and that drove a little bit of traffic to an awareness of it. But we never, we kind of just, we did that and that was that. And, you know, we're doing different stuff now.

But we loved it. We still love it. It's a huge triumph of our life, really. That was a long story. You did an amazing job on that. And also, I just want to, before we move on from this,

I want to tell you, I found a card maybe a year ago because i was cleaning i threw everything away but i found this card that i'd given to you after you finished cutting the movie the short and um and it's justine holiday cut to be fair i didn't i didn't edit it right justine holiday amazing editor i sat with her every day but she worked worked really, really hard on editing. Very super talent. Amazing mom. Amazing artist. And I wrote you a card sort of as the bookend to that conversation that we had on the terrace in Tuscany when I convinced you to write it. And I said that as my creative partner, you had far exceeded my

wildest expectations in expressing that project. And I was telling you how much I love you and respected you for stepping into that in such a beautiful way. Thank you. I think it's also worth mentioning that the female lead in the film is an actress named Sinead Johnson, and she does a wonderful job in the movie. She's funny, she's talented, and she was such a dear, and she passed away from a heart attack. It's been a couple years now. It's been two years or something like that. At age 34. Something like that, yeah.

So extremely tragic, which brings the discussion right back to health. Right back to food, yes. And personal responsibility. No, and I remember, actually, I was pregnant with Mathis, our nine-year-old. And I was already dilated to four when we started the shoot. So we shot for three days and I was dilated to four centimeters already. You were sitting in a chair like extremely pregnant. And I was like, please do not have the baby in the

middle of this shoot that we've been working. All these people, we had a crew of 40 people around, we have cameras rolling. And I'm like, if you have the baby, we got to call it off and go to the hospital. I was like, you got to hold on. But we, I remember we had, uh, we had a woman who was shooting background footage, like behind the scenes footage the whole time. And we joked with our friend Gordy. He was saying, well, if Julie has the baby in the middle of the shoot, that's a better movie. Like she should just be shooting that like a documentary

and then have the cameras follow you to the hospital and see what happens. That could be a better short film. No, I remember and I had gotten this really bad cough and I sat in a chair just sort of next to the monitor for most of the shoot. And we made it through three days, but we wrapped really, really late. I think on Monday, I think it was a Saturday, Sunday, Monday, on Monday night. And I was coughing and I could feel that I was leaking fluid.

I was really coughing hard. And I remember talking to a friend of mine who's a physician and she was like, what? She said, you were leaking fluid. She's like, you can't leak fluid. You have to go like see a doctor immediately. So we drove to Universal. This is the day after, yeah, the day after we wrapped. We had, we weren't, again, we weren't shooting on video.

We were shooting on 35 millimeter film. So we had all these, you know, giant, those giant pie tray canisters full of film and we had to take it to, to get developed. Right. So the next day we wake up after the shoot, we're like, okay, we've got to drive over to the lab and drop all the film off. We drove it to universal. And then we drove to the hospital. I called my doctor and said, I'm leaking fluid. He said, come in right now. And we went in and we had the baby. Right. Right. So then not only we had the baby, this is my first experience. This was my first child. Tyler and Trapper are boys. Teenage boys are my step-sons. So Mathis was my first

biological child. So we go into the hospital, we drop the film off. We go directly to the hospital. So we go into the hospital, we drop the film off, we go directly to the hospital. Our friends bring the boys. Yeah, exactly. So the timing was perfect because we wrapped the film and then basically going to have the baby. But I'm getting, I'm sort of getting ready for the experience that you see in the movies with the screaming and the sweating and the get out of my way and like the yelling and all that kind of stuff. And the doctor kind of calmly walks in and said, okay, you're looking good. All right, you're dilated. Are you ready to go? Like, why don't we, let's start off with a push. We'll see how it goes. And you gave a push. And then I was like, baby, like that was it. It was over. It took

like a half an hour. I was ready. You were like, wait, put her back. I know. Where's the drama? I want the drama. I want this experience. I've been waiting for this. Well, she was my third baby, but also I just, I have really, I'm very sick during pregnancies. Like I suffer tremendously and vomit most of the time and I'm morning sick even when I'm sleeping.

But I have very easy deliveries. So that's a blessing that I have. So it's pretty easy. But Sinead came to the hospital to see us the next day and actually was in the room with us. And I remember she was shooting in the teepee. There's a scene in the teepee where she's speaking to the guru,

which is actually Steve Ross's voice. And he does an incredible job in our film. So I just want to give a shout out to him. He's the best. He's so funny. the guru which is actually steve ross's voice and he does an incredible job in our film so i just want to give a shout out to him he's the best he's so funny so anyway so he did the the guru voice and um and after she came in it was freezing outside and she did take after take after take and when she came back in the house i had prepared a really hot bath for her with essential oils and she was so grateful and couldn't believe that i did that for her but anyway she's a love and i know she's still flying live in the multiverses somewhere and

doing great things because she's a beautiful beautiful soul for sure so shadow artist so yeah i guess the theme of this so you want to know well this is the thing like we can sit down and plan oh we're going to talk about this we're going to talk about that and then you just start talking and a new theme emerges so I guess this theme of being a shadow artist is has come to the forefront as the through line of this podcast yeah and actually so why don't you ask me what my my greatest shadow artist moment was I even had one what is your greatest shadow artist moment was, I even had one. What is your greatest shadow artist moment? So even though I was born with this, I think the one quality that's allowed me to be how I am, which is probably why I have the quality to begin with, is that I never believed that I had to study something to try it.

Or that I had to have training in something to attempt it. I have this thing in me that... I've always believed the other. The other. I can't do that. I'm not trained to do it. I have this thing in me that I've always believed the other, the other, I can't do that. I'm not trained to do that. I know. I just had this natural courage. Like it was okay. I was never too hard on myself, you know, like I'd just be like, Oh, okay. Is that how that's done? Okay. Let's try that. And I also have a talent. That's also, you don't have a fear of failing. No, which I think is the big impediment. Yeah. I don't have a fear of failing. No. Which I think is the big impediment. Yeah, I don't have a fear.

I mean, I guess, not that I necessarily like to fail, but I guess I don't associate myself with the failure. Right, you're not going to have a lesser opinion of yourself if you fail and you're not worried if other people, you know what I mean? You're not influenced by public opinion in that regard. Whereas I would be like, well, if I do that and it doesn't work out, I'm going to look bad.

And do I really want to take that risk? And I run this whole self-defeating mental calculus in my mind. And that's my old pattern. That's like my default that I'm constantly striving to quell. Which brings me back to the divine connection. So if you take the personality out of it, okay. So it's like, and, and, and really, so that kind of process that you're describing is really an ego based process because even though you're feeling less than right, it's still ego.

So ego is either less than or greater than. So it's all about ego, right? So when you're really connected to consciousness and you're in, you're in equality, you, you carry a quality, which is, or, um, I'd say an energy, which is neutral, loving compassion. It's a neutrality, right? So I guess something that I have the ability to do is to sort of channel something through and not attach it to Julie, the personality or Srimati, the personality or any other of my 25 names. My many, many names I've been given, you know, wash day or whatever. So it's just sort of like, oh, it's an energy and I'm going to let it flow through me. So the other thing is, is to what I've learned as an artist and, you know, and listen, I mean, I'm a painter. I don't really think I'm a very good painter at all.

Actually, I think maybe it's why I've done it a little bit is because I've been sort of trying to play with it. I think I'm naturally a very good sculptor and that's why I haven't done almost any my whole life. I know. Where are the sculptures? I just know that I'm going to do them when I'm old, when I'm old, you know, like I'll just sculpt and sculpt, but I have this innate ability. And you shared with me once, Anthony Minghella actually noticed my, my sculptures and, and that touched me deeply because I'm a huge fan of his. And I was freaking out that he even noticed anything that I did. But anyway, getting back to my shadow moment. So I have been a shadow artist as a musician my whole life. I was a

musician. I was a singer when I was six and knew I was a singer. Um, and then my older brother started playing music. And for some reason, you know, probably my soul path as I see it now is I, I just decided not to play music. I decided to do everything else except play music because he had such a huge jump on me at age seven and a half and I was six. So, um, I played the ukulele when I was six and sang and come from a musical family but my whole life I never did anything and I basically idolized my brother and really any other accomplished musician I mean just literally idolize them like I would beg him to play for me or beg him to play at a family event and and you know it probably was kind of weird for him now that I think about it. Cause you know, when somebody is projecting that amount, that amount of energy your way,

it's like, it's imbalanced, you know, it's kind of like star star struck or something. So anyway, so my whole life goes and, and I do everything, you know, that you've talked about. So, you know, I try everything I've done fashion designer, interior designer, you know, chef, you know, screenwriter, you know, you name it. And aside from doing a couple gigs with a friend who basically asked me to sing a backup in her band, it's actually Stuart's wife now, Holly. I never sang, I never wrote, I never played anything, and I had no idea, you know, that I could even do this. So, um, I had the idea and I actually went to Steve Ross because he's an amazing, uh, musician. And I said, you know, I'm really missing, um, I'm missing something in the Kirtan community and Kirtan in case you don't know about it is the sacred chanting mantras that are, that are played um uh in a group it's a sing

along call and response and you know you get together and you sing these sanskrit phrases which you know come from this 6 000 year old language and they're meant to transform your energy it's yoga the musical it's yoga the wrote that. No, we didn't really. But no, so, and I was missing, again, some authenticity in there. It feels, it's just not really my thing. Like it doesn't really, it doesn't really connect with me at a deep level. And I was looking for something new. And so I was saying to Steve, like, you know, we need like Lenny Kravitz meets, you know, Kirtan, like something, something yet different, something sort of combined. So I wanted to produce this Kirtan CD and I named it the Jai Sessions and I was going

to get him or try to get other artists or whatever. And then what happened is, is I started a meditation practice at 4.30 a.m. in the morning and it was a result of a pain that I'd had. is I started meditation practice at 4.30 a.m. in the morning, and it was a result of a pain that I'd had. I'd suffered a break from one of my spiritual teachers. Yeah. And I was suffering. That's another podcast.

That's the B story in Down Dog. So I was devastated, and I didn't have anywhere to turn because I couldn't go on a podcast and talk about it to 200,000 people. So I had gotten this harmonium actually at Yogananda's ashram. I'm a big devotee of Yogananda. If you don't know who he is, he's a beloved sage that brought yoga to the West. Paramahansa Yogananda. Paramahansa. Yeah, he is sort of credited with being the person

to introduce yoga to the West. And he has these big temples in a couple locations, but there's one in the Pacific Palisades in Los Angeles, and there's one right on the beach in Encinitas, just north of San Diego. And there's a famous surf spot right off the temple there called Swami's. And that's why it's called Swami's

because it's right off Swami Paramahansa Yogananda's ashram temple there. And he is extremely cool, this dude. And he has a book that I cannot recommend enough called Autobiography of a Yogi. It's an amazing book. I've read it like four times. And I would say that it is one of, if not the most influential book that I've ever read. So you should check that book out.

It'll blow your mind. Yeah. So you should check that book out. It'll blow your mind. Yeah. If you're looking for a spiritual expansion, pick it up. But anyway, he's a beautiful devotee and very much a devotee of God and the consciousness that is permeating all beauty. But anyway, so... Back to the story.

Back to the story. So I had gone down to his ashram actually to go to a silent retreat for a couple of days and you know, we're kind of always a rebel. So we had sort of rubbed the nuns a little bit the wrong way because I don't know what we were wearing or something. I can't remember. But anyway, I went into meditate and it, you know, it was silent eating and, and I had seen this harmonium in the store on the way in, and I had no intention of buying a harmonium. And literally the entire weekend, it would not leave my vision. My inner vision was just sitting there.

So I went out and charged it. I didn't have the money to buy it. I charged it on a credit card. And I took it home with me. And so later, some months when I had this split from this teacher of mine and I was very, very sad, I was getting up at 4.30 in the morning and I just started to play the harmonium. It's got sort of like a, like, it's like a wind. What do you call that? It's like a, like an accordion. Yeah. And you pump it that's how you get the the sound to come

through it's actually was created in france actually in the 1800s but it's it's used in a lot of indian music so anyway i just started pumping this sound and getting the sound and and uh just to release my heart because i had so much hardness around my heart from this experience. And all of a sudden, the song started writing. And it was like a door opened, and the song started coming, and they haven't stopped coming since. And I actually kept track of the melodies by making sort of a rudimentary chart on paper because I didn't know what an A or

a D or a G or an E was or anything. And I just would find the keys on the keyboard that would get the sound that I was hearing. And then I started making some just really, you know, basic tape recordings. And then, you know, ended up going to see my brother, Stuart, who is a master musician. He actually is a member of the wallflowers and and um you know I said Stu I think I wrote a song and he was like come over so he generously supported me as I wrote my first song and and then you know as you guys know I'm now you know six years later and have one album out that I created with my two sons with Tyler and Trapper and uh it was produced by Tyler, my 17

year old, and they played all the music and we grew up playing and singing these songs together. And so here I was shadowing the music and the musicians, completely obsessed with musicians. And it wasn't until I meditated. Yeah, never believing that you could do it yourself or having the courage to step in and try to actualize that for yourself. That's right. Despite being so artistic in all these other areas in your life,

you were blocked in that one area. In that one area and I didn't even know I was blocked because no one would have said I was blocked, right? I mean, how blocked could you be when you're expressing in all these other areas? tried to elude it, it still found me. When I got pure, when I got into the meditation and cleared all the other stuff out, it could get through. And I was practicing this humming meditation,

which is a part of the meditation that I offer. It's called Jai Release. It's on our website. And that is why I offer that, because it's that very technique that connected me to the music and for me it's one of the dearest you know I mean it's so dear it's it is my dearest creative expression and the songs just come and I don't I don't judge them and I almost don't feel like I own them. I just feel like I am sharing them. And so-

But every great, maybe not every, but many, many, many great artists will say the same thing, which in so many words you just said, which is this idea that they're just channeling what's coming from them. Like it's not even them that's doing it because they've gotten to a place where they're so open and connected that it just starts to flow through them. And, you know, whether you're

writing a book or writing a song or painting a painting that it's almost becomes this thing that is not connected to your thinking mind right exactly and that only comes though when you have done it's sort of like oh well they're touched by god but it's like look at all the work that has to be done to get to that place where you can be that open so that you can be the conduit in that regard. Or the exploration and discovery. And so I would say that every failure or every attempt at anything is a step closer to your true essence. And in fact, it brings you back.

Another, oh, sorry, go ahead. I forgot what I was gonna say. I was gonna say, yeah, another example of this that's classic Julie is she would paint a painting and then somebody would ask the question that you always get, which is. How long did it take you? How long did it take you to paint that painting? As if that's relevant to anything, right? Because if you spend a long time, then it must be very good.

It must be better. It must be worthy. Right? So Julie would always say the same thing which is my whole life but actually that's profound and true because that creative expression is the culmination of every life experience you've had up to that point that that finds its way into that somehow so everything that you've lived in your life and you've experienced from all your trials and tribulations through this spiritual community and the breakup with this teacher and all of that led you to a place where you were on your knees and in enough pain where you were willing to do this meditation program, which led you to clear out enough and open yourself up that allowed the songs to come in. And now here you are finishing your second record.

So it is it is the life journey it's like how long did that album take it's not how long you spent in the studio it is the it you know it's the life journey it's your whole it's that is the expression of your whole life absolutely whether it you know regardless of somebody's opinion of the quality of it or what have you. Right. And it's for, you know, it's in, I really do feel that way about it. I mean, the songs are so dear to me and have healed me. I mean, they healed me for years and years and years and years. And they provided this beautiful connection experience with my two sons who I grew up. I basically became a musician with them. We became

musicians together. And, you know, now they just, they were just in Nashville. They just recorded their first record. And it's like, you know, all of those moments in the studio and everything that we did together, it's like, if somebody says to me, you know, I don't like your song, my reaction is we'll tell God, tell it to God, like, don't tell me, because it's just, it's beyond, you know, and there's no way, that music has already blessed me in ways that I never imagined. And it is forever my gift and my honor to have been able to share in that and experience that. And what I'm saying is that every one of us has that one of those experiences inside of them. I'm not saying that everybody's going to be a singer or musician, but there are scientists and there are, you know, historians and there are architects and there are all kinds of people that have lost their way

or have lost that connection with their true, true cord. And it can be very, very elusive, you know, especially if you're a functioning person or if you can easily be a lawyer, you know, is a pretty good lawyer, you know, but still at what expense. So the thing that I'm saying, you know, we just, we just said goodbye to another friend a couple of weeks ago, someone who, who died recently and, you know, we're all looking around and, you know, I just said to you, I said, you know, the life is short. It's short what we have here. It really, really is. And so we really,

we need everybody to be more of who they are. And I'm not saying, you know, I don't come on this podcast and talk about my experience, um, wanting everybody to be like me or, or, you know, um, uh, you know, waging some kind of campaign or something like that. I simply share from our experience, um, so that it may inspire you. And if it doesn't, then please don't listen. You know, please go somewhere where it does inspire you. Like don't waste one breath with us if it's not feeling good to you. But if it is, we encourage you to keep going within and use those techniques and find a way to meditate. If it's not my meditation, there's thousands of techniques that you can find, but just know that there is a genius inside of you and there is some amazing expression that is waiting to come through. And if you access that, we will be uplifted as much as you are and all of creation will be. And it's just a beautiful, beautiful experience of life.

It's a journey worth merit, worthy of your time and energy to explore. Yes? Yes, it is. All right. Well, I think you've capped it. Yeah, I can't see topping that, so why don't we just call it? And what I'd love to do't, you know, I can't see topping that. So why don't we just call it?

And what I'd love to do is leave you guys. Could we leave them with one of the tracks? Well, yeah, I still have some stuff to say. Okay. All right. Don't worry. Are you worried? No, I'm not worried.

All right. One question I had for you, though. If somebody says, how long did it take you to train for Ultraman? Can I save my whole life? Absolutely. I think the more expanded, the sort of new and improved answer is thousands of lifetimes. So I wouldn't say my whole life. I would say thousands of lifetimes, actually.

Yeah. So anyway, so thank you for inviting me back on your podcast rich role the extraordinary rich role and i'm honored to be your wife and your partner and your valentine even though i know that you're not coming home with any flowers well now that you say that see that creates a conundrum because well then, then I go, well, if I did, then she'd be surprised. But then maybe that's some kind of reverse trick. Okay. You're way in your head.

Like, don't even think about it. Just flow with the flow. Moving on. Moving on. All right. Love you, babe. Thanks for being on the podcast. I love you, sweetie.

Thanks. All right. So that's it for today. A couple quick resources, though, that I think I could leave you with if you are interested in kind of exploring this path of tapping into a more creative version of yourself. I've said it a million times, but I'll say it again. You should check out Julia Cameron's book, The Artist's Way. It's a very elementary and easily accessible program that you can undertake that I have done several times and has helped me tremendously in getting to know myself better and in helping me set a better trajectory for how I spend my time and energy. So check that out. And also there's a book called The War of Art by Steven Pressfield, which is extremely helpful, especially for people that are feeling blocked.

And it's kind of directed towards people that are trying to express their art more fully. And it gets into the hows and whys of procrastination. And it really is about the brass tacks of removing the obstacles that are preventing you from being more expressive. But it's not limited to people that are writers or who have writer's block. I really think it is widely applicable to all of us in our own life to remove those blocks that are preventing us from expressing ourselves more fully and understanding ourselves. What makes us tick?

Where do we want to direct our energy in this short lifetime? Like Julie said, we have a dear friend who passed away at age 45 extremely suddenly out of the blue from a brain aneurysm. And you cannot walk through something like that without stopping and evaluating how you spend your time. And it really puts things into a snap focus where you have got to go, my God, life is short. What am I doing? What do I want to be doing? What am I not doing that I would like to be doing? Where is my life not headed in the direction that I want it to be doing? What am I not doing that I would like to be doing? Where is my life not headed in the direction that I want it to be headed in? And how can I redirect that? So these books,

Julie's meditation program, all of these things should be helpful to you. So check them out. If you want to check out the books, go to the Amazon banner on richroll.com and click that. If you're going to buy them on Amazon. It'll throw a few pennies in our bucket and it won't cost you a single cent extra, but it will support us, which we greatly appreciate. If you want to know and hear more of Julie's music, you should go to her website, srimatimusic.com. That's S-R-I-M-A-T-I music.com. You can preview and listen to all of the tracks on her first album. You can download it. It's also up on iTunes. The album is called Mother of Mine, and she should be coming out with her new record soon. When do

you think that's going to drop? Maybe in March. Maybe in March. Yeah, we were slated for February, but it's not done. Okay. March. So we will keep you posted with that. And what else? Is there anything else I want to mention before we go here? Ben Greenfield, who was on the show a couple episodes back,

he has a conference happening in Spokane, Washington in early March. I think it's March 3rd. You know what? I can't remember. It's early March. I know that. It's called How to Become Superhuman. He is offering 50% off the sign-up fee for the event for listeners of this show.

If you go to superhumancoach.com and use the promo code RICHROLL, you'll get that rebate. It's in Spokane, early March. He's got a great speaker lineup. You can go to that website and check out the speakers that he has. That guy knows a lot, and there's a lot to learn from him too. So that's it, everybody. We're going to wrap it up.

All right. Say goodbye. Bye, everyone. Thanks for having me. Happy Valentine's Day. Peace. Peace. I'm here now

Watching the space Feeling the pain in my heart my skin bleeds no resistance I'm not wishing on a star I'm here now

And I'm here now Watching the space Allowing it to be as it is my head screams no resistance I'm not

wishing on a star I'm wishing on a star. I'm here now. You and I are one, don't you see? Violet flames, a rare hue And if you look a little deeply You will find that I'm here now Torsion jewels and silver crowns Taste so bitter now

And I'm here now Watching the space Feeling the pain In my heart My skin bleeds No resistance I'm not wishing On a star

I'm here now Catherine Catherine Catherine I'm here now © transcript Emily Beynon you you you you you you you you you you you you you