The Rich Roll Podcast - Ultra Phenom Harvey Lewis On Finding Your ‘Why’, Nirvana Moments & Winning 300+ Mile Races

Episode Date: January 31, 2022

What’s stopping you from living the life of your dreams? For many, it’s finances. Family obligations. Demanding careers. You get the picture. But today’s guest truly believes you can have it all. Meet Harvey Lewis. For more than 25 years, this Cincinnati-based high school teacher & plant-based running phenomenon has been competing in ultramarathons with relentless consistency, racking up 23 wins across 76 races (and counting). A 5-time member of the USA National 24-hour Team, it’s a journey that has taken him to 101 countries across seven continents. Along the way, he’s toed the line at most of the world’s most prestigious races, including ten Badwater 135 appearances, winning what many consider the globe’s most challenging foot race on two occasions. In addition to an impressive slew of victories, Harvey is also known for plying his talents to celebrate civil rights history. In 2008, he celebrated Gandhi by retracing his famous 240-mile Salt March—and followed it up in 2009 by running from Selma to Montgomery in honor of MLK. Ever the teacher. Now 45, you’d suspect Harvey would be slowing down. Instead, he’s found an entirely new gear, collecting breakthrough performances that include not only a second Badwater victory but an absolutely breathtaking win at the 2021 Big Dog’s Backyard Ultra. For the uninitiated, this is a last-person standing format race that entails running a 4-mile loop every hour on the hour until no one’s left. Harvey clocked an astounding, world record-setting 354 miles over an 85 hour period. 354 miles. On essentially no sleep. Today we cover it all. We discuss the hows and whys behind Harvey’s training and racing. His commitment to human-powered commuting. The daily run streak that remains unbroken since 2019. And the role his plant-based diet plays in all of it. Of course, we review his storied accomplishments—from the dirty details behind his backyard ultra breakthrough to becoming the fastest to run from Badwater Basin (the lowest point in North America) to the actual summit of Mt. Whitney (the highest point in the contiguous U.S.). We also talk about his FKT attempt on the Appalachian Trail, how it brought him closer to his father, who crewed the affair, and the documentary Like Harvey Like Son that tells the tale. In addition, we reconcile Harvey’s life as an elite ultramarathoner with the practicalities of his full-time occupation as a high school teacher—and how the two passions inform each other. But more than anything, this conversation is about the power of showing up with intention. Making room for the magic that comes with the rigorous, consistent, and patient pursuit of the thing you love. The importance of incremental improvement. And why the ability to push beyond the limits of what you perceive possible rests not in physical talents but instead in training your mindset. To read more, click here. You can also watch it all go down on YouTube. And as always, the podcast streams wild and free on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Harvey is a beacon of infectious exuberance. He’s bursting with positivity and joy. He’s the teacher we all wish we had. And an example to us all. Peace + Plants, Rich

You know, you go through these lows and highs, but going into 300, it just felt like we were invisible, like just feeling like fired up and like, let's just go. So it was wild to hit that mark and then feel all kinds of new energy. Like that was what was so special about it, because you get beyond 300 miles and then you realize, wow, like you have more force than you ever had even in the first day. You're like, where did this come from? So, I mean, so much is the mindset to get out there when it's cold and rainy and 11 p.m., you know, like what's driving you? So then it gets us back to the question of why. And that's the other major thing. And like, to be honest with you, whenever I'm doing an A race that I really care about, I actually write down my why statement and I write down a bunch of stuff

under why. Some are sort of personal. Some definitely would be like for other people, you know, for my students or my parents. I would like to impact other people in their lifestyle. I would like to impact other people in their lifestyle. That motivates me a lot to do my very best to hopefully impact someone else. The Rich Roll Podcast. Hey, everybody, welcome to the podcast. How are you guys doing? Are you good?

Is it all good out there? Good. Well, prepare for more good because my guest today is Cincinnati based high school teacher and plant-based ultra running phenomenon, Harvey Lewis. This guy, get a load of this. He's been running ultras for over 25 years at this point, over 76 ultras and counting, including 10 Badwater appearances. And along the way, he's won a whole bunch of them. He's won a slew of races. But this past year at the ripe age of 45, at the ripe age of 45, Harvey finds this brand new gear, not only winning his second Badwater, but following it up this past October with just an absolutely stunning win at the Big Dogs Backyard Ultra,

which is this really cool last person standing format that entails running a four mile loop every hour on the hour until nobody's left, where he clocked an astounding and world record setting 354 miles over an 85-hour period. 354 miles on essentially no sleep. How does he do it? Well, we're about to find out, but first. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had

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Whether you're a busy exec, a parent of a struggling teen, or battling addiction yourself, I feel you. I empathize with you. I really do. And they have treatment options for you. Life in recovery is wonderful. And recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. So Harvey, the first thing you notice about Harvey is just his infectious energy. This guy is bursting with positivity. And this conversation was just an absolute joy. Of course, we cover his storied career from the dirty details behind his backyard ultra breakthrough to also becoming the fastest to run from Badwater Basin, which is the lowest point in North America, to the actual summit of Mount Whitney, which is the highest point in the contiguous US. We also discuss the hows and whys behind his training,

continued improvement, and the role that his plant-based diet plays in all of this. We discuss how he balances life as an elite ultramarathoner with his full-time occupation as a high school teacher, and how the two actually inform each other. We, in addition, talk about his FKT attempt on the Appalachian Trail, how it brought him closer to his father who crewed the affair, and the documentary, which is entitled Like Harvey, Like Son, that tells the tale. If there is a theme to this one, it's the power of showing up, making room for the magic that comes with rigorous, consistent, and patient pursuit of the thing you love. It's also a masterclass on mental toughness, how pushing

beyond the limits of what we perceive possible rests not in physical talents, but instead in training mindset. I love this guy. I think you will too. So here we go. Harvey Lewis in all his resplendent awesomeness. Harvey Lewis is in the house. I can't believe you came out here to see me, man. I'm so excited to talk to you. It's an absolute honor.

Honestly, I'm so excited to be here. In thinking about your story and as somebody who I followed for a long time, you know, I'm very familiar with your career. You're a guy who's been rocking ultra since the 90s. I mean, you've had this 25 year career of doing this thing and have had plenty of successes along the way, but I gotta say, you're really having a moment right now.

It's wild. It's crazy, like you're having huge breakthroughs and winning races at a level that, I don't know, would you have even thought this possible five years ago? Here you are at age 45, just absolutely crushing the game. What is going on? It's amazing, honestly.

Well, I think back to all the different stages, you know, starting off in 1996, which 25 years ago was my first ultra. And I would never have dreamed where I am today going back 25 years ago. Never, ever would have dreamed that. And just in the last, even in the last five years to be able to do the things we did this year. It just, it kind of have to like, just sometimes I don't feel like it's even real. Yeah. Well, you're a ball of energy, but it wasn't, I mean, how many weeks ago did you do

the Big Dog's Backyard? I mean, that was in October, right? Yeah, it was three and a half weeks ago. We had the World Championship of Biggs Backyard, last person standing event in the backyard of Laz Lakes, wilderness in Tennessee. So let's just start there. I mean, that race has come up in the past

because we had Courtney in here who was talking about the last time that she went around the loop with you. This year was a different affair. For people that don't know, maybe explain the format of the Backyard Ultra situation, because it's very unique. Definitely, and Courtney is amazing, of course. So the Backyard Ultra is basically a race

where you do half the races on the trail and half the races on the road. So it's a 4.167 mile loop. I like how it goes down to the thousandth of a mile. And even your finishing thing is down to the thousandth. Every inch, yeah, it's incredible. And this is wild because Laz actually dreamed this up when he was in high school.

He had this idea and it didn't really come to a fermentation until like he was in his sixties. And so, I mean, it's a race that every 24 hours you're running a hundred miles. And you just keep on going until the last person can run a lap. And as you're going, if you don't make it back to the loop in 60 minutes, you're out.

Or if you don't start the loop after 60 minutes, then you're out of the race. Right, so you do this 4.167 mile loop on the hour, every hour until literally last man is standing. Last man or woman. Yeah, last man or woman, right? Yeah, I mean, you can take naps. If you finish fast enough to have like seven

or eight minutes remaining or 10 minutes, you have to eat like a ton of food and you have to keep your mind in the right place. And you could go as fast as you want. Obviously the faster you go, the more rest you're getting. And as time wears on, you're slowing down. So that window starts to shrink. I mean, at the end, you're getting like 12 minutes

or so of rest in between. So there's no sleep involved here. Like there's barely enough time to sit down and get something in your belly before you're up and at it again. Yeah, the first year I ran it in 2017, it was completely novel. I had no idea what I was doing. And back then we didn't sleep.

But now I really try to incorporate sleep because the further it goes, after like the first night I can make it through without even like drinking caffeinated drinks. You know, it's not really a big problem. But once you get in the second night and then the third night, you feel like a zombie at times.

You almost get to that, you get to those moments where you start to sleep for like a microsecond, like while you're running and you wake yourself up. So sleep has become an important component. And on the nighttime loops, you can go faster than on the trail because it's on the road. And I would make maybe 48 minute loops or out backs.

So I'd have 12 minutes where I could utilize like just eating as much as humanly possible in five minutes. And I would like lay down for maybe five or six minutes. And I'm not really sure- Able to fall asleep? I didn't really fall asleep most of the time. I would just lay there, but I kind of experimented with it. And I found that even laying down with your eyes shut

for like five or six minutes is really powerful. It actually, it does revitalize you to an extent, even if you can't fall asleep. Right, Courtney was talking about these one minute naps where she thought that she was asleep for like an hour and was pissed at her crew. Yeah. But felt totally refreshed after a literally,

you know, closing her eyes for 60 seconds. That's nuts. Like, is that your experience or no? Like, how do you train for this? Or like, what is the, do you try to do this in your training? Yeah, yeah, this year I did. Like, cause last year that really impacted me

not getting enough sleep. So this year what I did is like during my lunch at school, I would take a five minute nap every day. So I would just go into like this bigger closet, just lay down on a yoga mat and literally try to sleep for five minutes. So I got to a point where I was two or three days of the five day week,

I would fall asleep for like three minutes, which is kind of wild. But in the midst of the race, there's a lot of things happening. One, your heart rate gets elevated. Two, after the second day, you're probably drinking some caffeinated drinks. So you're trying to play like an edge

where you're trying to stay awake on your out and backs on the second and third night by drinking caffeinated drinks. But on the other hand, you wanna fall asleep. And so it's like a tough dilemma there. Right. And it's, yeah, so just, I'm not really sure. Like, because the way your mind works,

I'm not really sure if I was at, sometimes I would drop into like some level of sleep, but I just felt like my mind was continuously running. So I would like be somewhat more conscientious and you're always waiting to listen for lads blowing the whistle. Cause at three minutes, he blows the whistle three times and then two minutes, one minute.

And so I have a really great, amazing crew chief, Jud Poindexter. And so I was able to rely on him and I knew he would wake me up, but you still have like this anticipation that, oh, I got to get up and get going. I've got to like have everything organized. And there's a lot of temperature variation too. Like at nighttime, it gets cold and the daytime is warm and your body, Like at nighttime it gets cold and the daytime is warm and your body, after like 200 miles, it doesn't do as well. You can't self-regulate. Yeah, you can't regulate the temperature as well.

So it ends up being, it's a wild experience, just pushing your body. Cause that's what is special about this race is it really gives everyone the opportunity to explore their limits. And the other thing is that it's really a pretty interesting race to watch. Like, you know, in a lot of ultras,

you might have an idea of like the top two or three runners based on like the front field of a race. You know, if you're watching like Western States and you're like, you know, maybe one of those runners might drop out, but you kind of have an idea of who might be the top three or four. In this backyard ultra,

everyone finishes the loop in a tight position. So, I mean, going into the second day, you have no idea who's gonna be the final runner. That's really interesting. It's like, there's so much competition. You have no idea that it's a poker match. You don't know who's feeling good or who's not because it's just four miles. Yeah, no idea. You don't know who's feeling good or who's not because it's just four miles.

Yeah, no idea what cards other runners are carrying. Yeah. Yeah, it's like a poker game. As a total poker match. But it ends up going off a cliff and becoming like squid game at the end, right? When people start dropping off and like the guy, the second place guy, Chris Roberts, he got,

I mean, he literally was with you until the last loop, but because he started a loop and didn't finish, it's a DNF. Like he doesn't even get second place. Yeah. Which is like super harsh. It's brutal, right? It's hard.

It's Laz, he is hilarious. But Laz always has some like element to mess with runners. And so technically everyone that doesn't finish as a final runner is a DNF. So even if he finished the loop and didn't start another one, would he get second or just everybody DNFs except the person who wins? Everyone DNFs.

Except the person who wins. Yeah. Or it's the second place. There's the last person and that's it. Exactly. So if you're trying to keep your DNFs down, it might not be the best format. Right, right, right.

That's so funny. Well, I mean, Lazarus Lake, I mean, this guy is like an all time world-class character. He is, he is on such a high level of that. Like his philosophy is just, it's so interesting to even spend time with him just because everything he says is so philosophical. And I mean, I love how the race is actually named

after his dog, Biggs. And now he has a little dog, Little has a race as well named after him. And I mean, Laz, he is just, you think maybe from the outside that he's extremely masochistic or maybe he's got some sort of like a vendetta like to really be cruel to runners,

but he does get some humor out of things. But he really is interested in seeing, he loves watching people work through those extreme challenges and he gets inspired by that. Where does that come from? I mean, he's not a runner himself, right? He is actually going back into the day. So back in the 60s and 70s,

he was a big runner in Tennessee. And it's interesting because his dad was actually a NASA scientist. And he actually worked on the lunar module coming off the moon. Wow. So he's a really brilliant guy. And he has a ton of interesting history on his back.

But he's kind of taken that, he's very particular about organization too. Like if you had talked to his wife, Sandra, like it's so funny, he's very particular about organization too. Like if you had talked to his wife, Sandra, like it's so funny, he's got a certain way that every flag has to be rolled out. Everything has to be just perfect. And I mean, we're not even talking about Barkley yet. Yeah, I know, we're getting there.

Yeah, so he is definitely, I really do admire him for what he has done with the sport. I really do admire him for what he has done with the sport. And he's captivated people in so many ways that we can't even begin to describe. Yeah, I mean, he's sort of single-handedly like created a whole new genre of running. It's exploded. With the un-finishable Barkley, Barkley marathons

and this whole backyard format, which he didn't invent it, right? But he sort of made it a thing here, at least in the United States. Yeah, he actually invented the backyard. Yeah, he invented that. Yeah, so it's now spread to over 62 countries and they have, I mean, hundreds of events.

There's over 13,000 people have participated already. And I mean, it's really exploded in just the last five years, last four years, it's just grown by madness. I mean, the format makes it really fun. There's a gamesmanship to it. And I suspect from a race organizer point of view, it's a lot easier to conduct than a race that's traversing like a huge swath of land

in a point to point kind of way. It's true, yeah, yeah. It surprises me at times though, cause I'm like, I'll follow their Facebook page and I'll see like posts from Pakistan or Morocco. And I see like all these places where they're like formulating this race. And it's exciting to see that, I love that.

It's also less intimidating if you're trying to dip your toe in the ultra world, because you can just go and run four mile loops until you're done. It's not like, oh, I have to do a hundred miles or anything like that. You can just show up and do what you can. So it feels like a little bit more welcoming.

Yeah, yeah, it is very much welcoming. And it's nice because especially the first day, there's a lot of comradery. Right. So, you mean, it's just like a big party. You get to like hang out and share stories. You know, it's just like a party on, you know, in the wilderness and it's just moving around.

I mean, it's fantastic. Well, it's a party until it's not. I mean, you ran 354.1667. That's how specific this is, miles, which is 85. They call them yards, right? Each four plus mile loop in 85 hours. Like I just, I can't even wrap my head around that. And it's so much further beyond anything that you had done

in that format or even outside of that format. Like it's a whole new threshold of experience for you. Yeah, it's wild. During the race, I actually, you know, I went through a low part around like mile, I think about 140 or 170 rather. And it's incredible because, I mean, I had like the battle inside my mind,

like the side that was not wanting to submit at all, but I had like a little bit creeping in that I thought of like, well, it would be nice to like, you know, just go relax in a hotel and they'll put my feet up and like, how long is this thing gonna go for? So- And you're only halfway in.

And I didn't know that at that time. That's the thing, you don't know how long it's gonna go. I had no idea at that time. And so to get through that dark place, I like share with my crew chief. And I mean, having a strong crew chief is really important in this race. And I just like, when I got back to the tent,

I made sure no one else was nearby. I just said real quietly to Judd, I said, I'm struggling through this a bit right now. And he came up with a good idea. He's like, just visualize that you're running back and forth to work. Cause I run commutes to work. And so like, that was incredible because at that point

I was really able to just go beyond it and then just focus on each loop and just imagine I was running back and forth to work. It was so easy at that point. Which is kind of about the same distance, right? Three or four miles? Yeah, it's about the same distance. So it's incredible how just changing your mindset

in like can make such an impact. And I really didn't go through any other, I mean, I went through, it was tough in the fourth day, but I didn't go through a point that was like as mentally like where I was in a dark place like that. Yeah. And then reframing it through that shift in perspective, like gave you this boost that carried you for another 170.

Yeah. I know you had a crazy moment at 300, right? Right, right. That's a whole nother topic. Yeah, let's talk about that. Yeah, so basically, once we got into that third night and it kind of becomes like automatic and you're just like, you get yourself back to the tent,

you're laying down for five minutes, you're eating as much as humanly possible and you're just lining up at the line again. And you're wondering like, how long are these people gonna go for? Right, and it's a poker game, you can't play your hand, right? You can't let anyone know that you're feeling down.

Oh, no, no, no. Like that would be destruction. Yeah, so I mean, it's like, yeah. So then you just keep on playing it out. And during the third night, there was something that kind of hit me, I think. I just, I got very automatic with it. And I felt pretty strong. Like I was just like dialed in that I was back

to my game plan that, okay, I'm gonna go as long as this thing carries, however long that might be. And you know, the Chris Roberts at that time was actually really, really struggling. The Japanese runner, Mori Mori, he was looking strong, but Chris Roberts in the last three loops of the nighttime of the third night,

he got to a point where he's actually running sideways. Like he was actually skipping sideways. And I was like, wow, I was really impressed by that. I'm like, and this guy's staying in here because I was pretty sure he was gonna like tag out. He's got like three minutes left on his loop. And he's like, he is so serious to the point where he's willing to skip sideways

to get himself down to the, which is not easy to do. Yeah, he never- So he literally, he pivoted his body. He pivoted his body because his knee was hurt. Right, wow. And he literally skipped sideways. I mean, I was like, you're running sideways after like 200 and some miles.

These guys are never gonna give up either. Yeah, yeah. So I said something to Laz, I'm like, Laz, you know, none of the three of us are gonna submit. I said that like, I think it's somewhere after like 300 miles. I'm like, it's just not gonna happen. He's like, it's gonna happen eventually.

Yeah, one way or another, right? Right, right. So the year prior, when you were going tete-a-tete with Courtney, you pooped out at 240 or something like that? 270. 277. Yeah, 277, and she did 281.

When you came up on that kind of mile marker this time, what do you think, like how were you able to get to a different gear? Like, did you do something different in training? Is it experience? Like what changed? Well, you know, I thought back to 2017 because that's when Guillaume and I, the French runner,

we both were running, we ran like an additional day beyond everyone else. And we ended up going to 21 and I submitted at 241. I was the assist that year. And I thought about Laz back then, he said, he had this big thing about saying, okay, I think you guys are gonna, someone's gonna make it to 300 miles.

And like that year in 2017, it was the first year I did it. And so this idea of 300, it kind of got in my head. And I'm like, well, shoot, we're gonna get to 300 and neither of us is gonna wanna quit either. I gotta get back to teaching. And it just became this like number that was like out there. And then last year with Courtney,

I told Laz somewhere before, I think three laps before I stopped, I'm like, Laz, we've got this. We're gonna beat a 300. There's no way we're stopping. And then sure enough, I'm like, Laz, we've got this, we're gonna beat a 300. There's no way we're stopping. And then sure enough, three laps later, my mind like wouldn't, it gave up. Like, so I felt at this race,

I really didn't wanna like give up mentally. Like if I was gonna like be out, it was gonna be based on me not making it back in time. Like every other time I did this, when I submitted, it was because my mind I had given up. It wasn't because I timed out. And so this race I wanted, if I didn't, if I was gonna go out, it was gonna be based

on not making it back in the 60 minutes, not based on like, oh, I don't think I can go any further. You know, because last year with Courtney, you know, I thought it was really amazing running with her number one. Like we were in a dynamic where we were supportive of each other, which was really special. I mean, like we both have a history

with the 24-hour USA team, but like to work with somebody, it makes it like just an amazing experience where you're like working for something greater. And it's like, so yeah, last year I just got to this place where I was in my mind, I didn't think I could, I thought I was losing time on the laps and I didn't think I could make it many more laps.

And so I was like, okay, I started to like hallucinate a bit more. And I said, okay, this is, I think this is it. And so I gave up. So this year I've really trained my mind more just to not submit. Like it's gonna, if I go out, it's gonna be physical. And what does that training look like?

Like, is there a specific program or method to this? Yeah, the method to the madness. Well, part helped that I did a backyard ultra in March where I actually was the final person standing. And that was the first time I did that. And so we did that in the Ohio backyard ultra, it went to about 240 some miles. So that helped to have that victory on my back

to understand what it's like to be the final person. And then leading up to this year, I did two races. I did, well, I did Badwater, which helped all itself. Which you won. Little Badwater. And then I did the Fans 24 hour race seven weeks out. And I did the superior 100 race five weeks out.

So doing a road race and then a trail race with 20,000 feet, like five weeks out, it helped, including both dynamics, but also conversation with my crew chief. You're like, we had it dialed down in terms of what we wanted to do. I think that helps a lot. What are the characteristics or qualities

that you look for? Like what makes a great crew chief a great crew chief? Because I think people really underestimate how crucial those people are who are supporting you. And many of us have had experiences like we get our friends to do it, or I've had my wife do it and my step-sons and it's great, but they're not like dialed in as crew people.

And when shit's going off the rails, like you want someone there who really understands what you're going through and can make sure that you're getting what you need. Yeah, I think it's so important. With the crew, it's number one is a positive mindset. Like no matter what happens, they're going to have a mindset that's positive.

So there could be crazy, crazy things happening and anything you could imagine. And no matter what that is, their mind is gonna be positive. And they're gonna be looking through problem solving. So problem solving is great. Having someone that is loyal and has your, that's huge, that you feel comfortable with.

So it's like, they don't have to be an amazing runner at all, not at all. It's more important that they are flexible. Like they're willing to like, they're excited about. It's also important to have someone who's excited. I mean, you don't wanna have someone come out there and is like, oh my God, we'll be out here for like, can you imagine?

Like, I mean, that's a long time. Well, there's 85 hours, a long time. I mean, you know, there's legendary stories about, you know, people bailing in the middle of Ram and all that kind of stuff, right? Like, wow, this is way more work than I thought. Like, and the crew's fighting and they're not getting along and the whole thing just craters.

Yeah, it's important. So I try to build the crew months and months before the actual event. And I don't have crew for all my races, you know, but like on my A races, I definitely try to build that prior to going. So like Badwater, for example, is a fun race for the crew component

because you have the crew that is gonna basically follow you the whole 135 miles. And it's so important to have a group that gets along together, but also people that bring different dynamics to the team. So someone might be the person that does a lot of miles, but you need someone who's extremely good at like logistics and organizing,

you know, that's really important. And you think outside the box, like, I mean, the crew is really important in a lot of these ultras for sure. They gotta be five steps ahead at all times. Do you like, like for example, with Badwater, do you like it when someone's running with you all the time or do you like them to kind of bump and run

or what's your kind of mode? So for Badwater, I definitely like having someone run with me. It's like after mile 42 now, you can have someone run with you all the way to the finish. And I like rotating it because after a while, I always want someone fresh. So I kind of feel like I take on their energy force.

So I get someone new in, it's like I kind of feel their energy, even though I'm running in front of them. And it's not like pacing in the traditional sense or running behind you. It's like, I feel their energy force. And it's like, it helps me to go faster. So I like having a rotation.

I love having someone with me in bad water. It's just, sometimes we're not even speaking. It's just being out there and running like a team. It's like, we're wild animals, migrating across the plains. And that's huge. it's a huge impact. So you're at mile 300 of bigs. Like I gotta hear about this like hallucinatory

Nirvana moment that you had. Yeah, so this year I would just say, like it was kind of crazy because, you know, you go through these lows and highs, but going into 300, it just felt like we were invincible almost. Like in Mori Mori, the Japanese runner, he just was fired up.

We were both fired up. So once we got past 300, we started doing crazy things. And like some of it was like strategic on my part, trying to like wear him down a little bit. But some of it was just like impassioned, like just feeling like fired up and like, let's just go. So we started doing things that you probably shouldn't do after 300 miles. Like we started running up the hill, like we've been walking up since day one. And then we started sprinting through the camp and like getting everyone fired up,

like just kind of ridiculous things. And sometimes we just like start running super fast through the woods in places we probably shouldn't, where you'd like crash. So it was, and we just, sometimes we'd be hollering. Like we just start yelling, like not in like aggressive way towards each other,

but just because we were fired up and like excited about it. Like, so it was wild to hit that mark and then feel all kinds of new energy. Like, I mean, I felt in sometimes more energy than I felt the whole race at like loop two. Right, you just go into some crazy gear that you didn't even know that you had. Not even know that you had,

like that was what was so special about it. Cause you get beyond 300 miles and then you realize, wow, there's these like, like you have more force than you ever had even in the first day. You're like, where did this come from? Yeah, like where does it come from? I mean, what do you make of that?

It was like- For somebody who's pushing the envelope to such an extreme and has been doing this for so long, you'd think you kind of know at this point, like where that limit sits. And yet you have this huge, I mean, it wasn't like you went four miles longer than you did last year.

Like you just exploded the ceiling on probably what you, I mean, 300 being the mark, and then you go so much further past that. And I really didn't think Chris was gonna even submit it like when he did at 350 or 350. Like I thought, actually I thought we're definitely going through the whole night here.

Cause we, it's just pretty much once you, the road is easier. So as long as you can overcome the sleep deprivation, you don't have like a serious injury, you can usually just make that out and back in the time. And so we were making it with plenty of time. If it weren't for his knee injury, I think we would have gone a lot further too.

And once he submitted, are you allowed to keep going or that's it? It's cold. It's like the ethics of race. So you only go one more loop. Right, so even if you, do you feel like you could to keep going or that's it? It's cold. It's like the ethics of race. So you only go one more loop. Right, so even if you, do you feel like you could have kept going? Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, I was definitely dialed in for the remainder of that night. And then it would have been challenging going back on the loop course in the fifth day would have been interesting because I don't know how I would have adapted. But then again, you never know and nothing's guaranteed. So I mean, something can change.

It can change fast. And so you always trying to just focus on that loop in front of you. Just one loop at a time. And you took a, if people are watching on YouTube, they see the brace on your right hand. I mean, you took the spill, fractured your hand, but you couldn't let any,

you couldn't like evince any outward facing pain, right? You didn't wanna- No, no, no, no, no way, no way. Not until the finish. You can't telegraph any weakness. And I was like, oh, that's not good. But yeah, one thing I do actually in races, I don't know how unique it is,

but I always like in my A races, I always take on like a spirit animal. And so for this race, my spirit animal was a honey badger. And so I watched that video, it has 4 million views. And I was serious about it. When I was going into the race, I was like, I'm a honey badger. So it doesn't matter what happens, I'm gonna still run.

So, you know, the fourth day, a honey badger fall down on the rocks, doesn't matter. You just get up, keep on running. Yeah, at that point, the fourth day, a honey badger fall down on the rocks, doesn't matter, you just get up, keep on running. Yeah, at that point, the fourth day, I shot got to a place where I was, it was tough. Like the fourth day is hard. Like Laz didn't really expect people to do that. And it's the, you got, it warms up. I mean, it's not like really hot,

but I mean, even like 70 degrees after you've been running for three plus days, it just takes more energy. And yeah, I got a little bit dehydrated doing the running with Maury. Maury just doing that crazy running probably didn't help things either. I mean, Chris Roberts was sitting back thinking,

man, you guys are gonna kill each other. Yeah. And like, I'm fine with this. But Maury like passed out, right? He went unconscious. Unfortunately, yeah, he actually literally fell like in close to, I think it was maybe 346 miles. He literally fell and knocked himself out

like for like 20 seconds or something, but it was enough to just put him over the edge. Yeah, he didn't make it back. He missed a cutoff by maybe a minute or two. So yeah, it's kind of a crazy race. It definitely is a crazy race, but it's exciting because of just all the different aspects of it. There's a lot of just all the different aspects of it.

There's a lot of psychology in the race as well as the physiology. And yeah, I was surprised. Like, honestly, I didn't feel anything in my hand. Like I knew I did it. Cause when I fell, I had no energy. Usually I fall. I felt the first day, I felt like three times. I don't think I fell the second day at all,

but I literally fell enough. It'd be easy spots. Like where I was like just times. I don't think I felt the second day at all, but I literally felt enough. It'd be easy spots. Like where I was like just looking off or talking to someone. But when I fell, I had zero energy to catch myself or to roll. And I just came right down on the hand. I knew right away I did something to it.

But I was like, well, it's not like essential. You know, I can keep on running. We can deal with that later. I checked my knee, knee was fine. No problem, just keep on going. Right, it's sort of like that Roger Bannister thing of breaking the four minute mile, right? Like once somebody, once he does it,

then all kinds of people do it. People have struggled to eclipse the 300 mile mark. There is that, I mean, you broke the world record that was set on an easier course in the UK, right? That was 320 or something like that. Yeah, John Stocker had easier course in the UK, right? That was 320 or something like that. Yeah, John Stocker had set that in the UK. So it's not like no one had ever gone over 300 before, but here you have three guys

who are all competing against each other, but also supporting each other to kind of break that ceiling. And it'll be interesting to see what happens next year. Like, oh, that's possible? Like, okay, are we going for 400? Is that what's happening now? Like, you know, who knows?

It's absolutely true. Like, I don't think the record's gonna stay there that long. The rate, what is special about it is that it did happen on Laz's backyard. In his event, it is tougher. Like, it's got more technical elements to the course. There's more like elevation climb, but there's a lot of variety.

Like they've now done these backyards in like Mexico where they have like a thousand feet per lap. You know what I mean? It's like nuts. There's a lot of variety, but this was a tougher course to set that record on. But I think you're right. Like it's gonna be like crazy.

Like where's it gonna go? I mean, have they done one on a track just to see how far you can do like creating the optimal conditions for like a crazy record? I don't know about track. It's not really in the spirit of the thing. It'd be better to have it like in incorporate like trails as well as the road.

Mixing the flip flop betweenop between trail and road, did you find that helpful because you got a little variety? I mean, mentally, I would think it would be good. Yeah, yeah, it's wild because you get to a place where you get tired of one and you're like, oh God, I can't wait till I get back to the road. Yeah, so when you got like two or three loops to go, you're like, oh my God, two more loops

and I'll be back on the road, I can survive forever. And then when you got like two or three loops to go, you're like, oh my God, two more loops and I'll be back on the road. I can survive forever. And then when you get back on the road and you're like out there for like nine hours in the dark and we had an amazing full moon. I mean, there was coyotes like howling. It was really special like nighttime, but nevertheless, after nine or 10 hours

of you're out there by yourself, like I wasn't running with Maury Maury or Chris, we're just out and back. So you have a lot of time to yourself, to have thoughts within yourself. And it definitely, you're so thankful when you get back to the trail, you're like, oh, thank God, back to the trail.

Can you put anything in the ears or do you have to go, do you listen to stuff? Yeah, you can listen to music on the road portion. And I find that very helpful. Laz doesn't allow it on the trail, unless it's like the final two runners, final two, three runners, then he doesn't really mind. But he doesn't wanna have it on the trail

when there's like many people out there. You can have like, you got past people and stuff like that on a little single track. So the music is really powerful because it kind of, if I am feeling discomfort, it numbs that. So I don't take any painkillers like ever. Like, I mean, I haven't taken any since,

like I broke my neck back in 2004. And when I'm in the, yeah, so having the music actually helps me to put my mind somewhere else. If I am feeling like just total fatigue or discomfort, just listening to music is like, it's really nice to have it on the nighttime. What is the nutrition strategy like? Like how are you keeping calories down after all that time out there?

Like what's the fueling like? Well, you just have to look at it as like, this is all you can eat buffet and be so thankful that you can eat all the food in the world. But it's really important to eat like probably 500 calories, 400, 500 calories an hour. That's a lot. It's a lot to keep down. Yeah, it is.

And that's actually where the plant-based foods really helps out because I feel like I'm able to digest a lot of food, like a ton of food and drinks without having, like I very, very rarely have any sort of like upset stomach in races. It's like extremely rare. So what's the combination of kind of performance nutrition,

like the high calorie drinks versus real food and what does the real food look like? Right, so I would drink tailwind, but I also had diversity. So I would have like soda as well. I had like coconut water, which was really nice. And then I'd have like things like from fruit, like watermelon, blueberries, to squeezable fruits,

to soups and like vegan mac and cheese and have like, I mean, Judd was actually really good about making up food. That's another thing about your crew chief. Like with this race, you're only allowed one crew chief or one person in this crew. So it's really important to have someone who is able to make up food for you

that knows a little bit about it. He's not vegan, but he's really good. I mean, he makes, he oftentimes makes me special like things and brings it to the race. I'm like, man, thank you so much. So you're not getting 500 calories an hour on fruit. That's coming through tailwind and through mac and cheese and stuff like that.

And also like Abe's muffins from Whole Foods. I grabbed a bunch of those. I mean, those are like, actually, believe it or not, it's like 400 calories or some 300 calories per little like muffin. So I mean, I would, and chips. So I mean, guacamole. And I'm eating a lot of things

that aren't like healthy to eat on a daily basis, you know, like just high calorie items. And I'm not really looking too much at like, my protein content is more like wanting to get complex carbohydrates rather than just simple sugars. Like I definitely am getting a ton of simple sugars, but I'm also getting complex carbohydrates too.

So I mean, everything like pastas, soups, things are easy to digest. Like I'd have like mashed potatoes and vegetable broth mixed together. And that was really easy to digest. And especially if it's hot out, like then you wanna think about things that are easier to digest.

Then at nighttime I could eat like the heartier items. Right. Yeah. No stomach upset? No stomach upset. That's amazing. Yeah, it's wild. That gets the best of them. Yeah, it's huge.

It's like the ultra has maybe, there's like 10 or 12 major components I can think of that are really important elements to a race, like pacing, pacing is huge, but nutrition is definitely one of the top ones. And like being able to just eat like a bean burrito and then just take off, like that's a huge advantage. To be able to digest that while you're moving and running,

it's a big advantage. But also ultras are famous for like, oh, I'm just gonna eat pizza and like, all kinds of candy and crap and stuff like that because I'm burning all these calories out there. And then people start barfing and having the runs and all kinds of stuff happens. Yeah, I think that's where not having the dairy in there

really helps a lot too. I mean, yeah, it's, I can name like maybe three or four times the last five years where I've actually gotten sick in ultra, that's it. Like literally like three or four times. And usually I can explain what happened in each of those instances. Have you, I have to ask you,

have you talked to Courtney about this? This last one? She has her, she's sort of notorious for like her- Oh, the nachos and cheese. Yeah, like all the stuff that she eats. Right, right, right. And you know, she occasionally has like a stomach issue in her races, right?

Yeah. Like there's Harvey's right over there. Well, I love Courtney. So I mean, I'm like very respectful about- Of course, I'm not taking anybody's inventory on this. Like she's on a different planet. So it's like knock yourself out, Courtney, whatever works for you.

Exactly. So only love. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's be clear. So I usually, yeah, I usually am kind of careful about how I, like if someone asks me, then I'll share, but I don't usually like, I mean, once in a while I do, but you know, we do share ideas.

A lot of times, like on the 24 hour team, we'll have something that works really well and like the other runners will pick up on it. So I imagine I'd love to collaborate with her more in the future, I mean, but I haven't really said a whole lot to her about it. I get it. Yeah, completely.

I wouldn't either. Yeah, I know, she's got her like nachos and cheese that she loves. Right, if that's working for her, completely. She's so- I wouldn't either. Yeah, I know, she's got her like nachos and cheese that she loves. Right, if that's working for her, awesome. So maybe this is a good opportunity to kind of dive a little bit deeper into the whole vegan thing. I mean, you went 100% plant-based in like 2016.

Yes, yes. And so talk me through like what that was about and why you made that switch and what you were doing beforehand. Right, so going back in time, I've actually been vegetarian since 25 years ago when I first picked up ultras at the same time. And that was just a revolution in my life.

Like just because I felt a transition just overnight. Like just like I went from being like chunking Goonies, like the chubby kid growing up and not being like one of the top runners at all. In fact, I was usually one of the last runners to finish races. And so- Yeah, I think it took you,

like you've said, like it took you years and years and years to break five hours in the marathon. It took me five years to actually break five hours in the marathon. I did get started young, like at 15, but it's kind of, it's amazing for me mentally, just to think about the, like chiseling through the little wall,

you know, like the Conte Monte Cristo, just all the little walls I had to chisel through to get here. I mean, you've been chiseling for the little wall, you know, like the Contra Monte Cristo, just all the little walls I had to chisel through to get here. I mean, you've been chiseling for a long time. I mean, yeah, it's like you are like the ultimate, like Harvard Business School test case in like persistence and consistency. Yeah.

You know, 25 years of relentless, I mean, you really haven't taken a break, right? Like you've just been doing this full speed. I mean, you have a full-time career and we'll talk about that, but this has been your life for a very long time, which is why I kind of opened it with the question of like, how are you having this break?

You would think like you plateau and it would just kind of balance out and you're like, okay, this is where I sit in the pecking order of things, especially in the ultra world where it's kind of notorious, particularly with men, where they're the elite level of their performance seems to have a pretty short shelf life, right? Like we see people who burst onto the scene, they win everything for a period of two or three years

or four years or something like that. And then really struggle to kind of match those results. Yeah, it's been incredible. Like it's been an incredible year, but there's a few things that happened in my formula. And one is always keeping it fun. So like, I just love what it is. Like I really genuinely love running ultras

and I love the adventure. I love the meeting the people. I mean, the opportunities I've had, like coming here today is incredible. I mean, it's been incredible. So I love the spirit of what it is. So keeping it fun is really important. And then listening to your body.

So I think that's a really key component. So I don't have, I'm flexible. Like I know like coming off of bigs, now I'm getting ready for Barkley, but I don't have like a coach. I don't have like a set program, which is interesting and comparable to Courtney. Like she'll tell you too,

she doesn't have like a set routine of like what she's doing. It's based like, we're very similar on that domain because I'll just go out and run. Like this morning I went out and ran, I didn't have any measure of how far I was gonna go. It just depended on how I felt. And so like listening to your body and going by that,

while you have like goals for each week or each month, it really helps you to be flexible. So being flexible and listening to your body and also different specializations. So I like getting out and running like a 5K. You know, I'm not gonna likely win that race. You know, sometimes I might in a local race, but I'm likely to finish like 10th or 12th

or who knows what. It doesn't matter because I'm pushing myself in that area. So not getting caught up into, I have to do only this particular type of thing, you know, getting into swimming, you're doing whatever it is. Like being able to diversify is super powerful as well. Because if you're able to run a 5k better, or you're able to get out there and swim a mile, that's going to make you stronger when you come back to the event you really excel in. And that'll make you stronger in the event you excel in.

Yeah, you're pretty diverse in terms of distances and terrain. I mean, you're a 245 marathoner, right? Yeah. And you can throw down for a 10K all the way up. I mean, usually the people who are excelling at the super long stuff, that's the thing they do. I mean, there's exceptions to that.

I mean, like Jim Walmsley is like rewriting the record book on what's possible in that regard. But you are really kind of resilient and capable across a multitude of specific disciplines within running. Yeah, I think going back some time, I think people kind of had me paid as like a road runner. Like they thought, oh, Harvey does Badwater. He does a 24 hour team.

Yeah, he's not like a trail runner, but I actually really love both. You know, and like Biggs gave me the opportunity to show, show that, that I love, I love trails as well. It's just people maybe assume because I live in Ohio, you know, it's like, we don't have like the big mountain trails that you have like in the Rockies or out in the Sierras.

And you haven't done Western States or UTMB. Those are the two things that stand out like, where's Harvey? I know, it's kind of wild. Like UTMB, I've been out there twice, like with other people I've taken out and just run the loop and it's beautiful. And I'd love to run both those races, of course.

And Western States is just like, that's so tough to get in the lottery. So actually this year was the first year I applied. Really? Yeah, I did actually. Like, so I'm thinking maybe, you know, maybe about 10 years from now I'll get in. We'll see.

We'll see. We'll see. I think you'll probably find a way to get into that race rather than later. We'll see. But the original question that we got sidetracked here was kind of exploring the plant-based pivot you were talking about going vegetarian earlier in life. I mean, it feels like that was more

of an ethical compulsion at the time. Yeah, yeah, it was actually, it was kind of a storm that hit me, like because my mom had a stroke in 1995. And that, I just kind of had a reflection on like what we had been doing growing up. I mean, my mom was a nurse. She was only like 54 at the time.

She survived, but it was catastrophic. Like, I mean, she lost movement on her one side and she also lost speech. So, I mean, her speech is really impacted. I mean, fortunately she's still alive and she's living independently. And I mean, she's amazing like for having that endurance through those difficulties of not being able to speak,

but knowing what she wants to say, and surviving all those years. But that really made me reflect on like what I was doing, you know, in Ohio. I mean, what was I eating in Ohio? Like what I grew up eating that I thought was like the healthy thing to do. And also I had like going back to when I was,

I guess maybe a junior in high school, I had like this sort of epiphany that, I did make this connection. I was like going through, I think McDonald's and I was thinking about like just, you know, where the food actually comes from. And I think, you know, we're really disconnected we're from our, where the food actually comes from. And I think we're really disconnected from where the food comes from.

And I was thinking about the soldering and all that. And I just really didn't wanna be part of it, but it only lasted for like a day or maybe even like half a day. And I just didn't know where to go with that. Like no one was vegetarian in my school that I was aware of. And there was no options at the line, like the lunch line.

So I was like, where do I go with this? So I had that original thought, but I didn't have any legs to run with it. And then when I was a sophomore in college, after my mom had the stroke that summer, I finally said, I need to like actually make an effort to like research this and find out. And that's when I started like transitioning.

I just went over to eating vegetarian. And so yeah, it's the last five years, I finally came in 2016. I've been wanting to do it for a long time, but I thought, what am I doing? Why do I still, like, why am I still avoiding this? Like, what is it? And it was out of convenience.

Like I thought it was gonna be an inconvenience for other people, for me to go vegan, or maybe it would be difficult with my like travels. I love to travel around the world. Maybe that would affect me. But basically I thought, I wanna do this, I've gotta do it. And I just said, okay, I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna set this.

And then after like literally, like I think maybe 10 days, I was like, why did I not do this like years ago? Like it's so easy. And I didn't feel like- Did you feel a difference? I don't know that I felt like in 10 days, like an incredible change, cause I already felt pretty good with eating vegetarian, but definitely within a matter of months,

like I noticed like changes, like just, I would say my performances, like I had my fastest marathon ever, like in 2018. Yeah, so that was my fastest marathon ever. And I like noticed that I was getting faster after that case. Right. Yeah. So you attribute, I mean,

this is attributable to just improve recovery, right? Yeah, yeah, that's the biggest thing. Yeah, thanks. So what I found is that my speed of recovery is ridiculous. Like, I mean, it's just crazy. I mean, like for example, I did that 24 hour fans race seven weeks before bigs, 13 days later I did the, and it ended up being a 19 hour race because we had like this crazy lightning storm.

But I ran, I think over 120 miles in 19 hours. And then 13 days later, I did the superior 100 with like 20,000 feet of climbing. So it's like, it's kind of crazy. What is your like monthly mileage? It's not nuts. Like honestly, I really truly, I ended up averaging like a hundred miles a week roughly.

When you're packing like a bunch of those races. I mean, that's the real training for the bigger races, right? Like the races themselves are part and parcel of the training. Yeah, like, I mean, I have A races. Those are the ones I'm just like all forces in, I'm actually gonna taper for,

and I have like B and C races. The C races are like, okay, there's a race this weekend. I've like done zero taper. I've run a hundred miles this week. I'm gonna go run this. It's good training. But it's important not to overdo it. Like, I mean, that's really,

like I don't typically do races 13 days apart. I might do that once a year. Running like this year, I've run seven ultras and I've run maybe like 10 other races or like marathons to like 3.1. So it's important, because if you run an ultra every three weeks or two weeks, you're just not gonna survive.

You know, you're gonna end up burning your passion out, or you're gonna end up just like hurting yourself, potentially. Yeah, so I mean, it's important to think about. Sure, sure. But you do this string of ultras kind of back to back. And the point you were making really is just the benefits of eating plant-based allowed you to kind of bounce back

in a way that you hadn't prior. Absolutely. I mean, it's just incredible. Like a lot of people traditionally might say, oh, you need X number of protein, grams of protein a day, or you need this and that. But by just eating a balance of variety, eating like healthy whole food-based items,

it's incredible how quickly you can get your body to recover. And it's like, when I was in my 20s and my 30s, I can remember feeling like aches in my legs or just like fatigue that lasts a long time. And now it's like crazy, but it doesn't last long. Even after doing Biggs, I mean, I left Biggs and that was kind of a wild experience because after I finished, I really didn't want the event to end. Like I was just, it was so much fun to have that, like something I dreamed about for years, like come to fruition.

It was just incredible. I mean, I just felt like it was too exciting to end. So I literally just slept in the tent that night. There was like 20 meters away from the finish line. But the next day I ended up like driving back to Cincinnati. I didn't get back to like 11 p.m. And I like went out and did my mile run. So I have like a run streak.

You're on a streak, right? Yeah, run streak going. So you get home at 11 and you went running. Went for a mile run. And then my student teacher, his wife or fiance is a ER doctor. So she said, hey, Harvey, you should go to the, University Hospital and get this checked out.

So after the mile run at midnight, I went over and got my hand x-rayed. And then I was there for a few hours. They had some good laughs with me. And now I got back home. I ran to work the next day, like at like, I don't know, like seven or something like that.

So it was wild just running to work. I felt pretty good. Like, I mean, I felt that I ran a good distance, but it's like that process of healing had already like started to really happen. And it happens really fast. What do your students think about all this? Like what's the vibe?

Like I wanna do a vibe check at work. They're amazing. Do they have a concept of like, what's actually going on? There's a lot of variety there. You know, they're super supportive. I have this just amazing group of students. SCPA is a really neat school. It's like K through 12 public art school.

And so we're, you know, our kids, they all have majors in the arts. Some are ballet, some theater, it's like all over the place. So they have incredible energy already and they're already doing so many amazing things. So for me to be doing this is just kind of like, I just fit in, like they're already doing their own,

we have a major musical happening right now, Grease. And, but they do kind of like get excited about it. And they're like, they're kind of like, you ran how far? You did what? Like that's to like, let's like to Michigan. What? Yeah, like what is that? Where is that?

I don't understand, what'd you do? Yeah, so. Are there sports teams at the high school? We have like a basketball cheerleading, ever running club that organize. Yeah, but it's not like a sports. Right, yeah, it's a different kind of school. All kind of arts, yeah, they're amazing artists.

Yeah, so everybody's really eclectic and into different kinds of stuff. Oh yeah, yeah, you would love it. You would absolutely, if you get through Ohio, we would love to have you as a guest speaker. I would love to come. My eldest daughter is a senior at the LA version of that, like the LA Perform arts high school here.

That's neat. What was her major? Visual arts, so painting and sculpture. That's so amazing. I love that stuff. She's, we went back east and we're looking at art colleges and stuff like that. That's what she wants to do.

That's so incredible. So yeah, I watched some videos of you kind of at your school and stuff like that. And I was like, it's very similar to my daughter's school. That's so cool. So I think I get the vibe. They're special places. They're different than typical high schools.

And the kids are also unique. Yes, they are. It really is. I get a lot of positive energy from my students. There's no doubt about it. I mean, it's like a two-way street. Like I give, but I also get up, I probably get back a lot more than I give for sure.

Right, so that kind of leads me into this thing I was curious about, because I suspect along the way, you've probably had opportunities or been tempted to just be a professional runner, like get a shoe contract and they pay you equal or maybe even more than you're getting paid as a teacher. And you could just do the thing, right? But clearly you're getting nourishment

out of your profession in a way that that doesn't make sense for you. Yeah, yeah. I always like to joke with my fiance, Kelly, who's also an amazing part of my life. I mean, she gives me a lot of energy as well, but she's a teacher as well. And I always joke like, well,

I don't play the lottery much, maybe once every five years, but if I play the lottery and it's like millions and millions of dollars, I'm like, if I win this lottery, I'm still gonna go back to teaching. I'm still teaching. Like I'm not leaving teaching if I win the lottery. Now maybe I do something special to money,

create some scholarships or something at my school, but yeah, I'm not leaving it. Like I really enjoy it. I mean, it's a lot of fun. So it's not, it's something that, I have my challenging days. There's no doubt about it. Like definitely we have our tough days too,

but overall there's a lot of, it's an incredible experience to be able to work with young people when they're at that crossroads in life. And they're like, okay, where do I wanna go next? Like I'm 16, 17, I have like the juniors and seniors. So where do I wanna go next with my life? Like what pathway do I wanna take? And it's kind of neat to be there at that moment

and get to like guide them a little bit, but also just it's an exciting life period. Yeah, that's cool. That's so refreshing to hear how much you enjoy doing it. Like it just makes me feel hopeful about humanity. You know what I mean? Thank you, I appreciate that. The fact that like, you're like,

yeah, I would do this no matter what. Like, I don't know, man, that's cool. Those kids are lucky to have somebody like that, like you. Thank you very much. So during the week, you have this thing where, you know, it's partially training, but also partially kind of sustainability minded that you're a human powered commuter.

You got this three mile track to and from work. So you run to work, you run to the school in the morning and then you run home. And during the week, that's kind of like your training. I'm sure you go longer on some days versus others, but like you're at the school all day.

So it's not like as the social runner, you're going out and running, you know, 40 miles every single day or anything like that. Like I suspect it's rather contained like during the weekdays. Yeah, it's a really important part of my training. Like I run basically three miles of work, but a lot of days it ends up being like longer,

two or three days a week, I might run like eight or 10 miles back and forth. And it's a really nice way to get the day going. I mean, like it gives me a chance to reflect on what's happening for the day, like what I want to focus in on. And I think having that energy, it kind of prepares you for being like a speaker

or being interacting with students. And then at the end of the day, if you had a rough day, it definitely helps as well. Cause I mean, it's like running is therapy. I mean, so like you have a chance to think about, okay, what happened with that student? What could have I done differently with that situation that would have worked better?

Or where should I like, maybe what should I do with class next week? You know, so I have those thoughts, but I also have thoughts like, you know, maybe it was just a challenging day or maybe I'm exhausted. Like in running home, literally like, again, reinvigorates me to like transition

to like that second part of life. So I'm able to leave like stresses that are work-related at work and not carry them with me. And I think that's a powerful tool running. It's like, it's free virtually. And it's like such great therapy for us. I mean, no matter what your situation is, having that running is a really powerful thing.

The other thing about it is I run with a backpack. So I'm running with a little weight for 30 plus miles a week. And that definitely helps. And since I have some hills, so I get a little hill training in. How do you avoid injury? Yeah, I've got, well, I've got Mr. Miyagi.

Right, you were telling me about this guy. I'm ready to get on a plane and go visit this guy. You're invited. Like you can stay at my place. It's you were telling me about this guy. I'm ready to get on a plane and go visit this guy. You're invited. Like you can stay at my place. It's only like a half a mile away. But Andy Shetterly does active release therapy. And people can seek out sports massage or physical therapy and things like that.

But I've just found it really powerful. Like I typically will see him three times a month. And then if I'm having ever an issue, like I'll just go see him like twice in like a week. And he can usually fix it in two visits. Super painful ART. ART. Oh yeah, yeah.

So it's not painful at all. Like we keep it like on a scale of one to 10, like a four or five, like we believe it's like, it's better, his practice is better to just like have a little bit of an impact on like breaking up scar tissue or whatever it is without making it painful. So I never do like, I'm not into like pain. Right.

I mean, I've had a few pretty painful ART sessions, like they know right where to go and it's just like excruciating. Yeah, but it's- In a good way, like you need it and you always feel amazing afterwards, but. It's one of those key components. Sleep is another one.

So, I mean, I think I really believe in sleep and I think it's important, like if you look at the top marathoners in the world, like they actually are getting like nine or 10 hours of sleep and a nap in a day. And I mean, if I wasn't working, like I would probably take a nap every day too. You know, I think it's a great thing.

But yeah, I think getting seven or more hours of sleep is really important, like as important as whatever you're doing physically. Like I think it's really important to you. And government is what you teach, right? Yeah, I teach government, AP government. And that's why I was excited to listen to Andrew Yang and your podcast with him.

Yeah, what do you think? Are you in the Yang gang? Well, I was very intrigued by him and I love his energy. I think he brings a strong dynamic that we need. I feel like we need that voice. And I know I have students that are, I've had students that are attracted to him as well as like a candidate.

But yeah, I think we need a change. We definitely need a change in America. There's no doubt about it. We need like some positive energy infused. And that's one of the things with running. Like I really liked the fact that running brings us together. It's like, I don't think about someone who's being Republican or Democrat.

I have friends of both extremes. And it's like running, we run. I mean, sometimes we get on topics and we're like, okay, let's switch the topic here. But yeah, it's like, I like that running brings us together. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it has an amazing power to do that, to just unite the best of us and bring us together

in a way that few other things can. And it's beautiful for that and for so many other things. But one of the reasons I asked you about teaching government is that you've done a couple of cool things with your running that I think are really unique in and outside of the ultra space. Like you went and ran Gandhi salt March in 2008, and then you did the Selma to Montgomery route in 2009.

So it's this cool way of applying, you know, a really practical civics lesson and melding it with your running to like, have like a boots on the ground experience of what those historical, you know, occurrences must've felt like. Absolutely, yeah. It's, I really believe in like experiential learning. those historical occurrences must've felt like. Absolutely, yeah.

I really believe in like experiential learning. So, I mean, I would love to take every one of my students to Selma to do the Selma Trail every year. I mean, that would be incredible, but we're limited by time and resources. So having the opportunity to go down there with a group of 10 friends, the second time I went down there

and like to bring that back and like share that with students, when I was down there the first time in 2000, I think it was a seven, I got to actually meet with civil rights leaders and like mother Cooper, Amelia Boynton Robinson, these folks were just like reaching a hundred years of age. And like, so to get a chance to like actually speak with them

and interview them about their experiences, Harry Belafonte, to chat with these people and really get pieces of the story that you don't read about in the textbook, that was powerful. Like to bring that back and share that with my students and say, look, this is what I heard from Mother Cooper and her experience with the sheriff,

what it was like when they were trying to overcome the literacy tests. And like, I mean, that's just makes it, it kind of breathes life into what you're trying to teach about when you talk about the 1965 Voting Rights Act. And like that, I love that. Like I would love to do that for every unit I have.

So, and then the Gandhi experience, that was a whole nother story. That one we could probably spend a few hours on, but Gandhi is an individual that I deeply admire. So many facets of what he was able to achieve based on the resources he had. And following the 240 mile journey, I started off with my cousin and his girlfriend.

They broke up on the second day and they ended up like, they ended up going cruising ahead. Yeah, eventually they ended up getting married. So it all worked out. But so I ended up by myself out there in India from day two, just carrying like, I thought, well, if Gandhi could like survive with like 10 items, I should be able to like survive a month

with like 10 items as well. So I'm just running through the countryside and these super intensely urban, very polluted cities. Unfortunately, like the air pollution there was really strong. It's a lovely, lovely country. And the people I met were so generous. I met farmers that didn't have anything,

but they would wanna offer something to me, offer food or whatever they could give me. And they were so generous. I mean, it just, the generosity I experienced amongst the people in India, and then it kind of took off while I was there too. Like they were writing about it in the Times of India every day.

And so every other truck driver would be honking at me and waving. And I mean, it was tough because it was so hot. It was like a hundred degrees, but the humidity was really hot and I wasn't as strong as I am now. And so I ended up even have, I had blood in my urine on like the third day which I've never had ever before or since. And it was just from like being overheating myself and like pushing myself too hard. But I destroyed my feet. I had like a thousand blisters. I had to get these bamboo sticks.

I mean, one day I found a big chunk of ice on the ground. I was so thankful to find that chunk of ice. I was like, it's so hot. Oh, it's like a gift from the heavens. I mean, I've never been so excited about a chunk of ice. 10 items? Yeah. You only brought 10 items with you. So what were the 10 items?

And were you just camping? Like, did you have a backpack or was this like a self-supported thing or? Yeah, it was a self-supported, I didn't really have a plan. Like I was kind of just winging it. And so I started off at the Gandhi Ashram and they basically had these,

they escorted me out of city with all these scooters and they had the media there and everything. And basically the first night or first couple of nights, they organized for a place for me to sleep. But the first night I like slept in the middle of this village, just out on a bed outside the small home.

And it was kind of funny, cause I look up and there's like 20 villagers circled around me, just looking down at me. And I'm like, all right, I'm trying to sleep here a little bit. But then I met other people like this gentleman, Patel. He invited me to, it was like the sixth day. He invited me to stay with his family at his house.

I just met him out on like this lonely road and he still keeps in touch with me today. So like maybe once a month, he'll call me and say, how is your family? How is everything in Cincinnati? It's pretty neat. Yeah, so, but at the end, we were met by a principal of a school

for deaf and blind children. And they escorted me like the last mile. So we shared that mile together and that was super amazing. Like I could never put a value on that. Like sharing that experience with those kids was incredible. And now when you think about Gandhi and his civil disobedience

and what that salt march must have been like, you have a whole rich kind of history of experience to draw upon that makes that come to life in a way that it can't in a textbook. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I met a guy who shared stories about his father. He brought me a sheet of paperwork. Gandhi had like written his father a note on it.

And just the, it was as much a connection with like Gandhi's story as it was the local people. Cause the people were so, even though they didn't have a lot of material wealth, they were extremely generous with like their time and whatever they had, they would be willing to give it to you.

So, I mean, a lot of times I would stop in these little like tiny, tiny little like stores, like a little shack that's selling like goods and they wouldn't let me pay. They said, no, you're gonna have to take that. You can't pay. I was like, what? Thank you.

Right, and they have nothing. Yeah, nothing. Yeah. Wow. You seem like a generally happy, like very positive guy. Like you have this like sunny disposition. You must have your, like, I'm looking at, where's the dark side, you know?

Like, is there a dark side? Like, I mean, when I look at you, I see somebody like who that disposition is really a big part of like how you're able to weather like such mental toughness when the chips are down in these races. Like I see the same thing in Courtney. Like she's, you know, like the worldview is like,

the world's a good place and it's gonna be fine. And like, let's have a good time, you know? And that's an underappreciated superpower. Yeah, it's how I feel. Like, I mean, I do have like, you know, my moments, like, but they don't, I try to get myself through those moments by like focusing on good things, like the good things.

You know, there's a lot of rough things out there that we can all like get ourselves caught up in, but focusing on the people in our circle, you're focusing on like the experiences that we can have in life. It can be a superpower, I guess. Yeah. Yeah.

What kind of kid were you? I was a challenging kid. I was a big challenging kid. Like I actually really, I think I have to go back to like my parents getting divorced when I was like five. So I grew up in this remote area of Pennsylvania when I was really young, a place called Chalk Hill, Pennsylvania. And then I moved to a suburb of Cleveland with my mother. So that had a challenge for me. When I was going to school, I really

struggled. Like I was not, I was a D student, F student, all the way up until like 10th grade. I mean, I was really a struggling student. I mean, I was in, I was literally placed in like learning disability classes because I was a problem. Because you didn't care or you couldn't pay attention? It was a variety of things.

I was challenging with my behavior. Like I just was, I do my own thing, you know? And- Like not like a bad kid, but just I'm not listening to anybody. Yeah, I wasn't causing fires, but yeah, I would just be, I would like, yeah, I wouldn't listen.

I'd be, you know, off, like, you know, challenging. I just would be really challenging. Was part of that like your coping mechanism for the trauma of the divorce or? Probably some of it was that a little bit. And then also I think like learning styles, like my learning style, I got behind my first couple of years of elementary school.

Like, so I wasn't a good reader. I struggled. I think that some of my teachers in the earlier grades, they'd want like kind of push me off in the corner because I was just, what do you do with this kid? I've got a ton of stuff going on. It's challenging to work with this student, you know? And then you start to believe that you're the kid

who can't learn or- Yeah, yeah. And then I just had like this mindset that I just couldn't learn. Yeah, it was really true. I mean, I had some amazing teachers along the road. I had this Mrs. Gondish, like with my elementary school teacher and special ed.

I really struggled with reading comprehension and my self-efficacy. So like, I really didn't think I could do it. And I had a big giant change was when I went and did the marathon when I was 15. So- And why, what prompted that? I had been, I've always been sort of curious

about challenges. Like even when I was a chubby kid, I was always kind of curious about, like I'd always want to go kind of climb up like the hill that's like, it doesn't look like it's very climbable or do things like that. And the marathon just intrigued me. It cut into my morning cartoons when I was a kid.

Like I'd be watching on Saturday, I'd be like, what the heck is this? But I got drawn in. I was watching it when I was probably like 11, 12, somewhere around there, 13. So I knew about this Cleveland marathon. And for whatever reason, like I was like, I want to do that. I told my mom when I was like eight days, nine days before the race, I want to do that marathon. And she's like, my mom always say, okay, to everything. And so she said, okay, we'll sign you up. So I went down there, got signed up for the marathon.

The furthest I ran at that time was like eight miles. I mean, and- This is like what, like 91? Like 91, exactly, when I was 15. So I was a freshman in high school. Like my coach at the time said, like, I ran one marathon and it was 15. So I was a freshman in high school. Like my coach at the time said, like I ran one marathon and it was miserable. There's no way you wanna do that.

Like, yeah, yeah. So I mean, and everyone else on the team's like Harvey, cause I'd usually finished towards the back of the group. They're like, Harvey, there is no way you're gonna be able to finish that marathon. And it was unusual then for somebody that young to do something like that. Back then, yeah.

The idea was you could harm yourself or you could do permanent damage. Right, so I ended up going down and I had to get down there by myself that day because my mom was working at the hospital. And I ran the first 10 miles. I thought it was no problem at all. I think I went real fast. I got to mile 10, I just about like, man, I'm like, no problem at all. Like I think I went real fast.

I got to mile 10, I just about like, man, I'm like, I'm gonna die. I don't know if I can even finish this thing. So I ran and walked the rest of the race. And I like met up with a couple other runners and that helped me out a lot. And I ended up like finishing that race. I can still visualize the finish line.

And it just seemed like it was a country away. Like it would never happen. But finishing that race was monumental for me at the time because I had never experienced that kind of like success. So even though I finished it like over five hours, to me like just finishing the marathon was like a huge giant success. Especially when everyone was telling you it was impossible.

Impossible, yeah. So, you know, that changed my mindset. And then after that, I started applying myself in school. And so like, it would still take me probably two and a half, three hours to do what someone would do in like 30, 40 minutes, like for writing a paper, but I put a lot of energy and thought into it.

And then I ended up really doing much better. I ended up like turning around from being like a D student that really didn't believe in themselves, didn't wanna put themselves out there for the risk of failure or whatever it might be, or didn't think that I could do it to being like, I'm just gonna apply myself until I do do it. So it's gonna get, it was a monumental change for me.

That's really powerful to hear the idea of going out and doing something hard and then learning as a young person that you can apply that will or that determination to these other areas in your life. And most people who get relegated to the side in the educational system, I don't have to tell you as a teacher, like that's all she wrote.

It becomes very difficult for that person to like inch their way back in and find a path to self-efficacy short of finding something outside of the academic realm that gives their life sort of direction and purpose like you did. Yeah, for our school at SCPA, I mean, I think the arts do that for our kids.

Finding that like vehicle through the arts is super powerful, but finding some vehicle to like motivate kids is like revolutionary, it's huge. It's the whole game, man. Yeah, it's huge. And it's hard. I think that me having the background I do where I really struggled through school

until like my sophomore, junior year. And then I really took off. It does help me a bit with some of my kids are like on that same edge where they're struggling and I can kind of relate to them. And yeah, I can understand what it's like to not do well, you know, and to try to turn around. So, I mean, I don't-

Can you crack them though? I don't always crack it. No, it's very tough. But you know, when you do with one or two, like, or however that is, like, then it's like, wow, that's like a wild moment. Do you ever invite any of the students to run with you? Oh yeah, yeah.

I mean, we have a running club at school. There's been different things. I have a running club. It's an excuse for you to get a third run in. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it is, it is, it is. But I've had a number of students have really taken off with it. One of my students, Logan,

he got into running clubs so much and then he ended up doing ultras and another one, Chris Meyer. And it's kind of neat to see like them getting into it. And like, actually Logan was at Badwater this year, crewing one of our racers. So that was really cool to have happen. That's really cool.

But one time I actually, with one of my students, cause I was trying to really get his mind, focus on his mind, but I actually raced him on his bus. Like he took the bus home to his house and I raced and I beat him. Like I said, okay, I'll race you home. You take the bus, I'm gonna run, I'm gonna beat you. He's like, no way, you're gonna beat.

So I did it. And that was fun. So it was kind of like a breakthrough cause then we were He's like, no way you're gonna be. So I did it. And that was fun. So it was kind of like a breakthrough because then we were able to like, you know, build upon that, you know, but yeah, it's, there's no like cut science entirely with teaching. I mean, there's, you have to like always be adapting

and trying new things. Well, that 14 to 18 kind of span of time, which is where my parenting falls right now between two different kids, trying to figure out that way in is so tough. And on some level, it's like, it's not for me. Like they don't wanna hear it from their parents. It has to be through someone like you or somebody else

that they can look to for inspiration, but you know, try I must. You know, it's that age where it's like, they don't wanna hear it. They don't wanna be around you. It doesn't matter what you say. It doesn't matter what you do. You're just the furthest thing

from being influential on that level. And it's a powerlessness that you feel as a parent that makes it really hard. It's challenging. I can see like here's kind of where I could wedge my way in and maybe nudge this young person in this direction, but they're not having it. Exactly.

And they gotta find it for themselves or they gotta hear it from somebody else. Yeah, yeah, my son is 25 now and I went through that when he was a teenager. I mean, it's like, I tried every angle and it's just like, during those years, we really struggled. But I'm happy to say that now it's like,

it's come full circle. He's like, really, we have a much better communication now than we did when he was like in those teenage years. Yeah. Yeah. Well, your relationship with your dad is super interesting as well, right? So the divorce happens, you go to live with your mom and I don't get the sense

that you were estranged from your dad, but you just didn't know him like he wasn't in your daily experience, right? Well, my dad was really good about communicating with me. Like every Sunday we had a conversation and it would be annoying to me at the time. Like it'd feel like a lecture, but it was also a way for us to stay connected

because he had moved to Minnesota, fallen into divorce. And we also spent time in the summertime. So we would typically, he exposed me actually to the wilderness. Like we would go when I was in seventh grade and then also ninth going or maybe 10th grade, we went to different like trips out West to the Wind River Mountains.

So having that experience with my father, even though it was limited on time, was super powerful as well as valuable to me. I mean, like I told you, I had the breakthrough with the marathon, but there were other things that, you know, having my parents in my camp were important to me. Yeah.

Couple of years ago, you take a crack at the fastest known time for the Appalachian trail. And you use this also as an experience to create a deeper connection with your dad and you make this documentary out of the whole thing. So talk a little bit about that because this is really kind of, it's super touching. It's like a running thing, but it's kind of not,

it's about something else altogether. And I think it's really cool. I haven't had a chance to watch the whole thing, but I watched a couple, I watched a trailer and then read up on it and stuff like that. So tell me more about this project. Definitely. So I came up with the idea of going

for the fastest known time on the AT and we set out for it in 2018. And I was looking at, it's one of the biggest challenges is the logistics. Like who is gonna crew you? I mean, if you're going for a supportive record, it's like 40, it was 45 days at that time. And like having someone with you for 45 days,

that's a major contribution, it's a major commitment. So I'm like, I had a lot of friends that could come out for like maybe two or three days. I have my friend, Alan Lopez, Lopez could come out for three weeks, but I needed someone who could be there the whole time. And I was like, I don't know if I wanna do this to my dad. He's 79.

It's like, it's a lot of intensity to be driving on these rural roads. There are no road signs. And like, you have to navigate and stay up late. Who's in more peril? I'm like, I was nervous about it. You on the trail or your dad in the van? Exactly, I was really concerned on some days.

But my dad, he is a strong man. I mean, honestly, I don't know anyone as tough as he is in a sense of like his mental strength and ability to problem solve. So he's got engineering background. So he said, yeah, I'd like to come on out and it'd be a blast. And then it became not just going for the record,

but actually having this opportunity to spend, you know, 50 days with my father is like priceless. You know what I mean? Like that's, we we never get that opportunity. You know, it's like, we might have like a week here or a week there, we never have 50 days together and going for something so tough, like getting up every day at 5 a.m.

and going until 10 or 12 at night, every single day, you're trying to cover, you know, basically like almost 50 miles a day. And it's like, it is just, it's incredibly difficult. I mean, it's like probably the most difficult thing I've done. It's just, you get to like day three and you're like, every day you're climbing 10,000 feet,

third of the height of Mount Everest. And you're like, wow, when is this ever gonna end? It never gets easier. It's like, it's always some element of challenge to it. But having my father along, it gave us opportunities to kind of, I mean, it just was so nice to arrive at 10 o'clock at a station he set up with some oatmeal.

And like, we just have like oatmeal for, it was 10 minutes, five minutes, eight minutes. Right, have a little Tuesdays with Maury moment. Oh, that moment. I mean, it just, it meant a lot. And so we had simultaneously, we had this film that was being shot by Rode ID, like Harvey, like Son,

and Rudy Harris who directed and produced it, he did an amazing job. Like I didn't see that initially as a story. Like I thought, okay, we're gonna do like this documentary on the fastest known time. It's gonna be really neat because we're gonna have like these amazing shots of like the AT and we're gonna get talked to people

on the trail. But then it became so much more interesting. Here's the story. What's going on between these two guys? Right, it was so much more interesting. Here's the story. What's going on between these two guys? Right, it was so much more interesting to focus on my father. Like he's way more entertaining than I am. And he's sitting there talking to people

and giving out like food to through hikers. And I mean, it's just, and then seeing the dynamic between he and I, I really had to rely on his, he didn't say one negative thing the whole time for 50 days. I mean- So that's where you get it. One negative thing. Yeah, I do get a lot of that from my father.

And he said, sorry to interrupt, but it's funny that you're like, he's so entertaining. Cause he says in the trailer, like, Harvey's so charismatic. Like I'm not, I'm just a guy. Like, he's down Harvey's so charismatic. Like I'm not, I'm just a guy, like, you know, he's downplaying his own charm. Yeah, he's much, he's got a ton of charm. And I think he actually is the main star of the film.

But yeah, it was a fun documentary. And it's amazing to, you know, be able to have that peace with my father that's there. It's like forever. Right now they're in works with a major platform. So the hope is that it will come to a larger streaming service in the months ahead.

Yeah, so it's kind of a self-release thing at the moment. Right, at the moment. Actually, it got a little sideswiped by the pandemic. So initially we were supposed to have a big opening out here in Hollywood, not like a big, but a few theaters. And we were gonna like generate, it was gonna be at several hundred theaters across the country. Oh, wow. Yeah, but it was supposed be at several hundred theaters across the country.

Oh, wow. Yeah, but it was supposed to come out, I think it was like literally a month after the pandemic started in April. Like, so it's just, it's okay. It's like what happens? So I ended up going to maybe like, I don't know if it made it to like 50 theaters

or 60 theaters, I'm not sure. It did get a theatrical release though. I don't know if it made it to like 50 theaters or 60 theaters, I'm not sure. It did get a theatrical release though. I didn't know that. Yeah, yeah. And it won a number of film festivals. So believe it or not, it won like, I think 11 different film festival awards. And so it has some really very nice components to it.

So it has some really very nice components to it. I mean, and I'm just grateful to have it out there, but I'm hopeful that we can get it to the streaming service. Get it to a larger platform. Obviously we'll link it up in the show notes, but the website is likeharveylikesun.com. So people should just go there and check it out and stream it.

Yeah, I definitely will. I'm gonna watch it tonight. I should watch it. I feel bad that I didn't watch it before the podcast. No, no worries. So, Barclay. Yeah. This is what the sites are on right now.

Yeah. Like why is this freaking thing so hard to crack? Like 15 people in the last 30 years have finished this thing? It's incredible. What is the deal? Since 1986. Why is it so hard? Laz just has created the most incredibly difficult race

you can imagine for a number of reasons. Not only, I mean, it has 120 miles. Like that's not that big of a deal, but the fact that it's got, yeah, it's got- It's all relative Harvey. You just ran 354 miles, so like 120? Yeah, it's supposed to be a hundred, but really it's like ends up being 120

because you have to navigate. So only 20% is on trail and 80% is off trail. And then- So that extra 20 is built in because you know you're gonna go off the course and stuff? Yeah, everyone knows that it's longer than 100. So you just wanna think already, like, so you don't, you know, prepare yourself for what it's gonna be.

Then you got close to 60,000 feet of elevation climbing. So that's like two times up Mount Everest and back down in 60 hours. And then you have going in the fog at nighttime. Like imagine you're off course or you're on a course that's off trail and it's pitch black. It's gonna be maybe a quarter moon.

There's fog. You basically are relying on somewhat intuition, somewhat on your compass. I'm carrying that with me now all the time. It's an orienteering kind of thing. A little bit orienteering. And then not only that, you have to follow Lazar's riddles

that he has written in his own language to where these books are hidden. And so there's 14 books you have to find the one that's, maybe at the state penitentiary that they have there. You have to find one underneath a rock that's by the birch tree. I mean, it's like, it's very cryptic. So it's a challenge once you get like yourself to a place

where you've been going for 36 hours and you have to navigate at nighttime and you're tired, you've had sleep deprivation. I don't think most people don't sleep even the night before the race because they're waiting for the Kong shell to be blown. And they're like, have a hard time falling asleep. So, I mean, it becomes really important

to take mental record of where you're going because you also rotate loops every other loop. So you're going in a different direction every other loop. So there's so many components to this race that add to the difficulty, like including the elevation. I mean, imagine climbing up and down Everest in 60 hours. And it's not like on a road or like a path. It's on like this muddy,

like climb up like a steep embankment with thorns. You know, it's like, it's very challenging, but that's what I love about it. So how do you get your head around that and sort of customize your training to be in the best kind of prepared state that you can? Yeah, that's what I love about taking on these new challenges.

Like bad water is such an extreme, like the hot environment. This now, I'm starting to not think about things in terms of mileage. So now I've never done this before. I know a lot of runners out here do this, but now I'm starting to think about it and just in terms of like vertical ascent.

So now like I'm actually plotting down, I never did it before. I never really cared about it. I just like, but now I'm writing down every week what my vertical ascent is and every day what that is. And I'm literally seeking out every single hill, mountain, mole hill I can find. And when I can do it on the weekend,

I go to like a state park in Ohio and I just literally go right off trail, right through the brush, the thorns, everything. I just go straight off trail and I just go like- Get lost. Yeah, get lost and then try to find your way back. Yeah. You need to have like a buddy of yours,

like kidnap you in the middle of the night and blindfold you and just like drop you out of the trunk of a car somewhere and you don't know where you are and it's like, good luck, buddy, you gotta get home. Like that would be- That's an idea, I might actually use that one. Yeah, that's a good thought.

Or what's the tallest skyscraper in Cincinnati? And we have the crew towers. Yes, I don't think that's gonna be, it's probably not, I don't think that's gonna do it. No. Yeah, it's not tall enough, Rich. But I mean, I know you could do repetitive- But at least like conveniently located if you wanna get some vert during the week or something.

Yeah, fortunately, Cincinnati is a city of seven hills. So we do have great hills in Cincinnati. So I just go up and down the hills. And there's really that element of also being out in the environment. Like that's another thing, just being comfortable being out when it's like dark and it's 3 a.m., you know? So it's, I'm not going to train every day, like running at 3 a.m.,

but I have to be comfortable and be out in the middle of nowhere and like, just, you know, be being out in the dark at 3 a.m. in the middle of nowhere. Like you're a contestant in a reality show or something. Exactly. Yeah. So it's. Like you're a contestant in a reality show or something. Exactly, yeah. So it's like you end up doing these kind of crazy training. I mean, every one of these major races involves a degree of some new crazy training that I love that.

I love that. I love like trying to be creative. I think that the creative element is so important in ultras and it's also under recognized like as a pivotal element as being creative. Well, one of the things that you do as part of, you know, part of it is part of this human powered commuting is like you kayak to work sometimes,

or I think you even swam. Yeah, I swam a few times. To mix it up and like keep it fun and fresh and, you know, experience a little bit of cross-training benefit too. Definitely, definitely. Yeah, I was surprised. I saw on Instagram, like you hit the pool. Yeah, yeah.

On the fairly regular, don't you? Not enough, honestly. I do it like kind of seasonally. So there's an outdoor pool I like to go to. It's like a city pool, right? It looked like it was right in the middle of the city. Yeah, it there's an outdoor pool I like to go to. It's like a city pool, right? It looks like it was right in the middle of the city. Yeah, it's right in the heart of the city and it's underutilized as well.

So I mean, I like to get out there when they're open in the like season for it. And if I, yeah, if I had a, yeah, if I had a pool like that, that was open year round, I'd probably utilize it more. Right. But I just kind of go with seasons. Like sometimes I'll get into something like that

for just a season. And like in the winter time, I literally, from like January to February, I usually like sign up for a gym that has like a big movie theater, like that you can just run on the treadmill. And like, I just like watching the movies and like, yeah, I'll do that in like January, February.

But the last couple of years I haven't because my races have involved more element being out in the elements. And with Barkley, it's like, you have to just throw yourself out in that- No treadmills. Yeah, no, I mean, even like- Laz would not approve.

No, Laz would not approve. You know, even like being subjected to more cold, like you want, it's gonna be very cold in that race. Like when you're up on the ridgeline and it's like maybe gonna be in the 20s or it could be in the 30s. This week it's gonna be down to 19. So I mean, it gets windy. When is the race?

I can't say the exact date, but it is in March. Okay. So it's all secreted. Because you know, but you can't say? Yeah, I know it's all shrouded in smoke and mirrors. Right, right, right. So they- Why secrecy around the date?

Well, right now it has become just an incredible phenomenon in terms of like, people are so excited about it. So he wants to like- Is that part because of the Netflix documentary? I think that's definitely part of it. So it has a huge following. I mean, I posted about that was in the race, which is a little bit of a no-no.

The condolences. Right, the condolences. But people knew I was gonna get into it because I had won Biggs Backyard. And like, that was one of the benefits of what I won from winning Biggs was I got into Barclays. So I get some more punishment. But you're being shamed for even talking about it.

It's like fight club, like you're not allowed to say anything. No, you can say a little bit about certain things, but you can't say the date. Yeah, but like he has had challenges with a lot of people or people showing up that aren't supposed to be there. And it's a relatively small space, like at the campground and things like that.

So they don't want people showing up like those dates and unless they're like invited guests. Yeah. Right. Well, good news because we're heading into winter. So you're gonna get a fair amount of cold weather in Cincinnati. Yeah. So I can see you out there shirtless.

Yeah, I don't know if I'm gonna do that every day. I'm gonna try like probably on my run commutes to school a couple of days a week where I'll probably just wear like a T-shirt and shorts, even if it's like 20 degrees or 15 degrees, but not every day, not every day. It's like with bad water, I only train for heat a couple of days a week.

Like it's better for your mind. And we might as well spend at least a minute on that. Cause I think, you know, I know what you did, but that would blow people's minds to know the kind of heat acclimation work that you put in. Yeah, Badwater is, I mean, it's definitely my favorite ultras in the world. It's not that far from your home.

So I know you've been out there. I crewed it one year. That was enough for me. I love the environment out there. I mean, it's like- It's beautiful. It's incredible. So, I mean, it's 120 degrees typically in the race.

It's 135 miles. You know, you go to, you go up over three mountains and you finish on Whitney. And yeah, this year was magical because it was my 10th year running Badwater. I had won the race back in 2014 on the alternate course that year due to the park closure. There was all that shenanigans.

And so it was a dream of mine. I write out goals each year. And like that was one of my like 12 goals for the year was to win Badwater. And it was wild because I had written it down. And I mean, you just like, it was a bit of a high stretching goal, but to have it come to fruition was again,

it was just incredible. Cause I've been dreaming about that again for years and working at it and just trying to tweak and tweak. The race was, it was very windy this year. And we, there was a runner from Ukraine who got out ahead. He was leading throughout most of the race and he was continuing to build a lead. And then going up the second mountain,

this was about mile 79 to 83. I was really feeling beat up. Like I was actually- That's the one where it's the middle of the night, right? Because of like the race starting at 10 PM. Yeah, I forgot about that. Yeah, I think the last six years. So that's actually around, I think it was around noon,

like about noon or one o'clock. And I was feeling like a bit beat up. I was trying to hang in there mentally. I was thinking, cause I was like, I always think like, you never know what's going to happen to a person in front. And I was in second place at the time. And I'm just like, I just have to work through this. So my team getting Judd and my other friends, they were trying to keep me hydrated, give me like enough liquids. I wasn't doing the greatest. Somehow, when I got to that aid station at Darwin, I had this just fire that hit me. And I just felt like a different person. Like, and I knew that at that aid station, I got the clock time on the runner in front.

And I knew that he was struggling as well, because despite me slowing down, he had put no time on me. And I'm like, okay, I'm gonna go get you. What was the gap at that point? It was about, I think about 25 minutes or so. Like, but I'm like, I'm gonna just give everything I have. And then, so we started running, we ran a few miles

and all of a sudden we had this really special experience where the fighter jets literally just buzzed over top of us, like 60 meters above our heads. And that was just like, that just lit me up even more. And now I'm just like, all right. And then another, maybe another half a mile, a mile from that, literally I saw Igor, Ukrainian runner, and he was in my sights.

And then I just was very consistent not to overdo it, but to continually like chip away. And I think I caught up to him about mile 114. We had a really good exchange. Actually it was very like positive between the two of us. It was actually one of the coolest events, like moments I've ever had running to have like a positive embrace and where he's like,

you know, I was like, you know, keep at it. And he's like, you go get it. And that was something really special. Yeah. Wow, two wins, 10 bad waters, plus the fastest known time from bad water to the summit, Mount Whitney summit, right? That was another wild one.

So with 2020- Explain like, first of all, bad water for people that don't know, 135 miles across the desert. Most people are familiar with the crazy heat and they know some sense of what that's like, but they don't really understand that there's like an insane amount of elevation gain.

And the last, however many, when you get into the portals and you go up to the 8,000 feet of Mount Whitney, it's like the last, what is it? Half marathon is like straight uphill. Yeah, the last half marathon is definitely a climb. It's like another 5,000 feet up to the portal. But then it's a whole other thing altogether

to continue past that point and go all the way to the summit, which is the highest point in North America. So the original concept behind this race was you go from the lowest point in North America to the highest point in North America. So the original concept behind this race was you go from the lowest point in North America to the highest point in the contiguous US. Yeah, absolutely. So Al Arnold did this back in 1976 and it set it up, 146 is the original Badwater course.

But the park service as things are, they really didn't like the idea of having runners go up Whitney, which makes sense. You've run 135 miles and now you're gonna do a summit push and it's treacherous up there. It's treacherous. I mean, people would die for sure.

Yeah, I mean, in the early days, we're talking about 20 people in the race. You know what I mean? So it wasn't like the bigger number. Now we have a hundred people. So I think that, you know, runners, we don't oftentimes put safety nets in there or like stoppage. So if it was lightning, I could see some people be like,

oh hell, I'm still going up there. Yeah. I'm so invested at this point. Right, so I mean, it is good that we have the 135 with the number of runners we have today. But in 2020, we were having the pandemic and the race was canceled. And I had trained for the race and I'd never done the 146.

And I was always kind of intrigued about it. And Marshall Oreck had the record going back 29 years earlier. I have a lot of respect for Marshall. 91? Same year you did that first marathon. Same year. I mean, he's a phenomenal guy.

So I thought, okay, well, I'm just gonna organize my team. We'll go out there in August and we'll go for it. We raised money for the City Gospel Mission, which is like a homeless shelter in Cincinnati that also has a running program for individuals that are recovering. That's cool. It's so cool. And at first I was thinking, okay,

we'll just go for like $1,000 or $2,000. I wasn't like really hyping it up that much. And by the time we got out there, we had like $5,000 were donated. And so that actually kind of fueled my fire, like going into that event at mile 17 to hear feedback from the team that, hey, we had already raised 5,000 and it was going up.

And yeah, to me, it meant a lot to me. I try to keep really a good pace going through the race. When I got into Lone Pine at mile 122, I felt there's no way I'm going to get this record. I was just depleted after going through the desert. I was exhausted. And I was like, okay, well, we're going to go up to the 135 and we'll see how it goes. I mean, maybe I'll just stop at that point. And so I was hiking up the final 13 miles that would have been to the 135. And I was talking to my fiance on the phone and I was like, you know, Kelly, I feel like really, I don't think this is possible. I really feel like

there's like a 1% chance I could do this. There's no chance I can do this. I feel depleted. That's an unusual statement coming from you. It's unusual. So if you're saying it out loud. Yeah, I was saying it out loud. There's no chance I can do this. I feel depleted. That's an unusual statement coming from you. It's unusual. So if you're saying it out loud. Yeah, I was saying it out loud. It's real. It's like 1% chance I can do this. Like I feel like totally depleted right now.

And as I was going up the mountain, like with about maybe five miles before the portal, the temperatures were starting to drop a bit. And I think I was able to get more liquids into my body. And I was starting to feel, hmm, okay, maybe there's something here. And then so then I got to the last two miles up to the portal, I said to one of my friends, I said,

Max, you're gonna have to prepare things because I think I might go for it. So, actually I said that to Jeremy. So when we got to the top, I still wasn't feeling like thunder, but I felt like it's maybe I'm gonna go for this. I don't know if it's still, I'm not sure if it's possible. At that point, when I got to a portal,

what was really amazing was Marshall Ulrich, who had the record from 29 years earlier, called me on the phone. And he's like, Harvey, you know what? You can do this. Like, and I was thinking I can't because I'm an hour behind where I want to be in order to make this cent. And I know Marshall's an amazing climber.

He's climbed all the seven summits. And, but he gave me like a little 45 seconds, 60 seconds pep talk, which is amazing. Someone has had that record for 29 years to be so gracious to do. Yeah, that's super cool. So cool. How did you even have service up there?

How could you even get a phone call? You get service at the portal. Like, yeah, I don't know. My team, they put that together. Like they had gotten in touch with him. And then my friend, Michael Jimenez and Davey McCoy and his friend, they accompanied me up to the summit as like a crew.

And like once I got on the trail, like I had my hiking poles, Marshall and I talked extensively about what was permitted, what was not permitted, time to leave everything. And I felt like a new energy. Like again, it was wild. Like I felt different than I felt down below. Like I felt like, okay, I felt I'm just going to go with everything I got. I don't know if we have a shot, okay, I felt, I'm just gonna go with everything I got. I don't know if we have a shot, but I was moving. I was moving really fast. And Michael said, wow, it's hard to keep up with you.

And so once I got to like the switch, once you get at the top of the switchbacks, you come up over the ridgeline, there's like 1.8 miles left or something like that. Now I thought, okay, it's in our sight as long as I don't make any catastrophic mistakes. And then to get there at like 3.30 in the morning, that was like just incredibly powerful

because on the Appalachian Trail, we ended up coming up short. We got like the eighth fastest time, which was still amazing because we got that, he had an amazing experience I could never take back. But again, to get up there, to be a part of Marshall's record from 29 years ago, and then to involve my team

and then to do it for the city gospel mission, that was cool. Yeah, you got it. You clipped it by like 20 minutes or something like that. But here's the thing, you get up to the summit, you did it. You still gotta get down. Yeah. You can't just get in a van and drive off.

That's the challenge. The summit of this huge mountain. Right, so yeah, my mind was really thinking about that because the temperature, even in the summertime, is really cold up there. And especially after you're like, imagine like if you can think about, if you've ran a marathon before,

you've done some event where at the end of that race, you get really chilled fast. Like after like- That's why they hand out those, those like tinfoil blankets. Exactly, so like 10 minutes later, you get super chill. So I went into the shelter, I think for like five minutes, literally.

And then I was just all about focus, but it took me a long time to get down. Like actually I wasn't trying to speed down. I was just taking my time, but I mean, it was slow. I mean, I like, I was going so slow. Dude, you got 146 miles in the legs. I mean, you know, I think it's okay. Like, it's kind of amazing.

You're even, I mean, the quads could even handle going down a mountain. But the food after you have experienced like that is the best food of your life. Like, I mean, that's one of the things about these ultras is like having that period where you're kind of like, your challenge, some might call it suffering. I would never call it suffering.

I like to look at differently in that, but you're like in fatigue. And then once you have the opportunity to like relax, it's like the best relaxation ever to get into the hot tub or down at the bottom of Whitney is a really nice cold river, like a cold Creek. And I like to just get in that Creek and like, it's just, it feels like something magical.

I mean, it's like rejuvenating. Like you earned it, buddy. People are gonna kill me if I don't ask you, what you eat on the daily, like what's a day in the life of food for you? Yeah, that's a, well, it's, during the weekdays I I'm in Cincinnati. And then on the weekends,

I spend them with Kelly in Circleville. So Circleville is a country town. So Kelly makes some amazing foods on the weekends. On the weekdays, I eat a lot of stuff like that I just throw together. Like, I mean, breakfast might be like power-os and almond milk and like chia seeds and blueberries and then, or oatmeal.

And then lunch is like maybe some sort of burrito or it might be something that like, I don't eat a lot of salads, but I might be a salad a couple of days a week. And then dinner, I'll eat Indian. Do you make that and then put it in the backpack? Yeah, I do. I like throw all that it in the backpack? Yeah, I do. I like throw all that stuff in my backpack.

Yeah, sometimes my backpack is kinda like filled. So you're not eating the school cafeteria lunch? Not too frequently, unfortunately. Like once in a blue moon, they might have something I can eat, but they don't have a lot of offerings. Like our school program, we still have to work on it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But I like ethnic foods. So like Thai food, Indian, Mexican food, all those things. In Circleville, it's more challenging. Like that's a rural community. So we have in Circleville, there's literally only Chipotle and like a Mexican restaurant we eat at. And then otherwise I just have to like buy stuff at our grocery store and throw it together.

But do you like the cooking part or are you just rather? You're on the move. I'm on the move. So I'm so bad. I wouldn't mind cooking, but I'm not, I don't, I rarely cook. Like I literally just go and buy things fast in Cincinnati, like out to eat.

Or my mom, I take her out to eat a couple nights a week in Cincinnati, so we go out to eat or my mom, I take her out to eat a couple nights a week in Cincinnati. So we go out to eat and, but I don't make food that often. Like, I mean, Kelly's really gotten into it. And I just get to be the free rider on that. Like it would be a great idea. It's not like I'm definitely like I'm interested in idea, but I don't dedicate the time to it.

I'm just always on the move. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I get it, man. I get it. The last thing I wanna explore with you is, I imagine somebody is listening to this and they're like, "'Man, I can't believe this guy does all this stuff. "'How does he do it?

"'Like I'm inspired. "'I wanna, you know, it's time, it's time. "'I gotta finally get off the couch "'and like rectify this couch potato situation I'm inspired, it's time, it's time. I gotta finally get off the couch and rectify this couch potato situation I'm in. How do you catalyze that spark, get people off the couch, get them active? How does somebody begin that journey? Yeah, I think the most important thing

is to find something that you love or you have fun with. And I know it doesn't become a love immediately. I've heard people, they start running is to find something that you love or you have fun with. And I know it doesn't become a love immediately. I've heard people like they start running and it's like, it takes three months before they actually start to like it a little bit. Like they have that period where it's like, I don't like this. So I guess-

Getting in running shape is the worst. Yeah, finding something you enjoy. And it might be hiking, it might be like swimming or whatever it is, but finding something you enjoy. And it might be hiking, it might be like swimming or whatever it is, but finding something you have fun with. Also having like accountability partners. So like with Cincinnati, it's a really nice city because we have actually like eight different running groups

like that you can like join that are just, that's not even counting the private running groups everyone is part of. And like joining a program, it can be really helpful to have that motivation. Like, okay, every Wednesday or every Saturday, we're gonna meet up and run. I think having some sort of accountability partner is huge.

Having goals, like having a goal out there. So like, I like to make my list of like 10 to 12 goals, literally every, like I do it over the winter break. Like I do that before January 1st comes. It might sound kind of like, but I literally, that's powerful to me because it sets out what I want to go for the year. And I like to dream big and go for big things.

But having like goals out there, something that you can like sign up for, it's like three months out, that's huge. Keeping things interesting. So like I have routines, like I do certain routines, like my run to work, it's pretty routine, but I also like to mix it up. So on a Saturday or Sunday,

I wanna go explore something new. So like in Ohio, I've had this goal of like going to all 88 counties and it's probably taken me another 20 years to get there. It's like a Ricky Gates thing. Right, but I was, and I go out to state parks, I try to see a new trail, but like, and I also like to do that with countries.

So I've like, now I'm at 101 countries and I like to go see a new country and like incorporate some adventure with that because it kind of sparks running as well with what I do. But having like a little like thing that you do maybe once every couple of weeks where you get off your normal routine, it can be powerful. It doesn't have to go to another country

or even another county, but just like trying something a little bit different with what you're doing, it makes it, it brings a nuance to it that makes it so that you'll have incredible long, you know, more longevity with it. One of the daily habits that you've adopted that I think is super interesting is this personal journaling that is beyond journaling.

Like you write down everything that you do. Well, not everything. Is that true? But I should have bring my calendar in here. Right, it's like the pre, yeah, it's like every day I write down everything that I do. Yeah, it's kind of funny. Like my students occasionally, they'll see my calendar on my desk.

I'm like, so what are you doing with that? Like, don't you write that in your phone? Like, no, I'm like old school. I have like everything. I've got all my runs in there. All my like, you know, plots, like whatever's happening. Yeah, I do like to write.

I don't write everything down, but I do like to write some things down. I think there's something powerful about writing down like your program, whatever that is, or whatever your goals are for the week. Like there is some power to that when you write something down.

Like before Biggs, I also is some power to that. When you write something down, like before Biggs, I also had some things on my mirror. Like, I mean, my fiance comes to the city house, I'm gonna have to clean things up. But in my bathroom, my mirror, I have like three quotes are written down right now. And they- What are those quotes?

One of them is actually, one of them I have to paraphrase, but it's actually from Laz. It's like something about being inspired when people push like to the most extreme amounts and go beyond it. Like it was like going into Big's backyard, you know, like Laz is, he's quite a remarkable character and he's kind of influenced a lot of us out there. And, you know, to just see his joy of his inspiration of us making 300 and having three runners do something that he didn't think might be possible on his course was something that lit me up. You know, like that was super powerful. And I'm going to keep that quote up there now, since I'm doing Barkley and the chances of me

finishing are like, according to Laz, like one in a million. Right. In fact, I'm doing Barkley and the chances of me finishing are like, according to Laz, like one in a million. In fact, I'm like this- I love how so much of this is like, I gotta win over Laz. Yeah, right, right, right. I'll kill myself in order to get that guy's approval. Right, and it's like, he's actually said, I'm like the sacrificial lamb,

which is like the runner least likely to expected to finish the race. But yeah. And other quotes? Yeah, let's see. You know, actually there's one from David Goggins. I mean, I kind of, Dave and I we've done some races together and I admire him.

I think it's uncommon amongst uncommon. Right. Yeah. To be, yeah. I don't know exactly how it goes. It's something, I'm paraphrasing, uncommon. Right. Yeah. To be, yeah. I don't know exactly how it goes. I'm paraphrasing, I'm messing it up again. But it's something you're pushing yourself to a place where you never imagine yourself

to possibly go to. Right. His other big quote is all about this idea that when you think you're done, you've only tapped into 40% of what you're capable of. I mean, how do you think about that valence between the mental and the physical with what you do? I mean, it tips so mental when you're talking about bigs,

it's like, it's all in the head. Yeah, it's so much in the head. Like, with your training, which will catapult you to that level, like that depends on your mind as well. So, I mean, so much is the mindset to get out there when it's cold and rainy and 11 p.m., you know, like what's driving you?

So then it gets us back to the question of why. And that's the other major thing. And like, to be honest with you, whenever I'm doing an A race that I really care about, I actually write down my why statement. And I write down a bunch of stuff under why. So for pigs, what was the why? I had about 15 things.

Yeah. Yeah. But some are sort of personal. Some definitely would be like for other people, like, you know, for my students or my parents. I would like to impact other people and their lifestyle and like their health and like what they're doing. So like that motivates me a lot to do my very best to hopefully, you know, impact someone else.

Sure, and just being clear about that why makes it the thing that you can pivot to when you're hitting the wall and you think you can't go on, you kind of return or remind yourself like, oh, these are the whys that gets you into that extra gear. It's so important. I mean, it's so powerful. Like, I mean, there's so many times where you,

in your mind and your conscious, you struggle with a thought about giving in, but you can't give in. So you have to like have a why that's so strong that you would not give in. Yeah. Yeah. So what's your why for Barclay? Barclay. Do they stay the same or just? So you have to like have a why that's so strong that you would not give in. Yeah, so what's your why for Barkley? Barkley.

Do they stay the same or just- No, they always change. Yeah, so I usually don't write it out until like the two weeks before. Like I really write it out then. So I have to really think about it. But I do have some ideas for my spirit animal because that also rotates, you know. You can't go back to the honey badger?

You gotta mix it up? The honey badger is good in bigs, but I think in Barkley, it might be the wild boar. Yeah, yeah. Is there a wild boar out there? And you gotta just be like- Resourceful. Resourceful. Or survive anything.

Right, somehow those animals manage to make it up all those steep mountains. Yeah, maybe find a truffle here and there. Yeah, yeah, find a tr impossible. Yeah, fire truffle. Well, best of luck to you, man. It's really inspiring, not just what you do and what you've accomplished, but like how you comport yourself.

Like I really enjoy talking to you and I find your example to be incredibly inspiring. And the fact that you're out there just having the year of your life at age 45 with like no end in sight in terms of your potential and your capabilities and you're doing it plant-based. I mean, you're setting a new like example for what's possible in athletics.

Like you're an adventurer, like you're way out on the fringe, man. Like seeing what all the rest of us, you know, are capable of. And I think it's really cool. And if there's anything I can do to be of service to you, like I'm at your disposal, my friend. Wow, thank you.

Thank you so much. It's really been fun chatting with you and honor to be here. Cool, so if people wanna learn more about you, I mean, is Instagram the best place to send them or in addition to the documentary? Yeah, Instagram, Harvey Lewis, Ultra Runner or Facebook. That's your deal, man.

You got a website? You don't have a website. I don't have a website, no. You keep it at old school. I have run Quest Travel. So I didn't mention it, but I do take people on running holidays in June to Portugal. Oh, in Portugal.

Yeah, yeah. So if you ever wanna come along, there's some amazing swimming places as well. And mountains to hike up and run, all kinds of things. I'm gonna be thinking about that. Yes. I'll just be coming back from, we're doing one in Italy in May.

So I don't know if I could back to back it. Maybe I'll just stay there and go from Italy to Portugal. That would be the way to go. I gotta talk to Julie about that. Where are you guys going in Italy? We do this event in Tuscany every year. I mean, COVID, obviously we didn't do it, but we have this amazing location there,

this like working olive farm where we've been taking groups for many years. location there, this like working olive farm where we've been taking groups for many years. And it's sort of a seven day kind of food meditation, trail running, you know, extravaganza experience. Wow. Yeah. That sounds like a dream. So got a spot for you if you wanna do that first

and get a lead on your Portugal trip. My principal might not be too happy. That's right. Yeah, when school get up, you get those summers off. Right principal might not be too happy about me missing. Yeah, when school get up, you get those summers off. Right, yeah, now that's a big thing, but yeah. Right on, well, good luck at Berkeley. When you conquer that thing, you got an open seat to come back here

and tell me how you did it. Now that's another why. There you go, I just added to the why. You just added to the why list. Cool, man, appreciate you, thanks, man. I appreciate why. There you go. I just added to the why. You just added to the why list. Cool, man. Appreciate you. Thanks, man. I appreciate it. Peace, plants, run, Harvey.

All right. That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guest, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com, where you can find the entire podcast archive, as well as podcast merch, my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change in the Plant Power Way,

as well as the Plant Power Meal Planner at meals.richroll.com. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube, and leave a review and or comment. Supporting the sponsors who support the show is also important and appreciated. And sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is of course awesome and very helpful. And finally, for podcast updates,

special offers on books, the meal planner, and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page at richroll.com. Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camiolo with additional audio engineering by Cale Curtis. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis with assistance by our creative director, Dan Drake. Portraits by Davy Greenberg and Grayson Wilder, graphic and social media assets, courtesy of Jessica Miranda, Daniel Solis,

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Appreciate the love, love the support. See you back here soon. Peace. Plants back here soon. Peace. Plants. Namaste. Thank you.