The Rich Roll Podcast - Unmasking Masculinity With Lewis Howes

Episode Date: October 30, 2017

The word authenticity has been so co-opted and commodified, it's now almost impossible to use it without sounding hacky. But the sentiment behind the word remains beautiful. To me it means living hon...estly and with integrity. It means the courage and self-confidence to be open and vulnerable. It's what it means to live, breathe and move in alignment with your truest, highest self. I do my best to live authentically. I strive to inject this sensibility into the content I create. And it’s a consistent theme of this podcast. Intellectually we understand the importance of living authentically. However, we all find ourselves — myself included — nonetheless projecting a version of ourselves onto the world. Not the raw truth but an edited impression of who we are and what we want others to see; a facsimile of identity, custom tailored to suit the expectations of our social environment. In other words, we all wear masks. We can characterize this behavior as dishonest. But it’s also just human. We're all guilty to a certain degree. We do it because we’re afraid. Because we’re insecure. And because honesty and vulnerability are terrifying. If people really knew me, I would be unlovable. The impulse to hide our fears and flaws is normal. Not only is it easier to don a facade, it's how we've been conditioned to behave for as long as we can remember. But when we inhabit the role we've been socially programmed to play at the cost our truest selves, we disconnect from both intimacy and ourselves, undercutting our ability to connect with others and inhabit the best of who we are are and what we have to offer. As counter-intuitive as it may sound, the more we can summon the courage to shed our masks – masks we have been wearing for so long and so persistently were not even consciously aware of them – in exchange for being open, honest, and vulnerable, the more integrated, whole, secure, confident, and ultimately authentic we ultimately become. It's scary. But overcoming this fear is the first step to truly blazing a path to becoming a fully integrated human. It's the journey to becoming whole. At peace with yourself. Empowered. Self-actualized. And ultimately, free. This is the subject of today’s conversation. To shepard us through it is my friend Lewis Howes, host of the very popular School of Greatness Podcast, NY Times bestselling author of The School of Greatness*, and the man behind a brand new book hitting stores this week entitled The Mask of Masculinity: How Men Can Embrace Vulnerability, Create Strong Relationships, and Live Their Fullest Lives*. A former professional football player and USA team handball Olympic hopeful who bottomed out before blossoming into a successful online entrepreneur, Lewis defies the stereotype that typically accompanies most successful alpha males. Enjoy! Rich

Transcript
Discussion (0)
Starting point is 00:00:00 Why do men wear different masks that hold them back? Why do men cause a lot of resentment, anger and conflict in relationships with business, friends, family, intimate partners? Why do we do this as men? Not all men, but why in general do some men do this? And I realized that, you know, a lot of this conditioning over time from your parents saying like you know don't cry don't be a crybaby be a man be this or your coaches be a man get back up don't show pain from you know the confusion of relationships where women want a bad guy and they're you know the bad guys are rewarded in high school too then they want a sensitive person, but then they want you to be strong
Starting point is 00:00:46 They want you to show you so it's like constantly conflicting and I think Yes, we all have our own responsibilities to be the best person we can be but when society culture Family friends girlfriends Teammates are starting to have this pressure Constantly to feel accepted. We need to be a certain way to fit in. We have to fit in with what they want us to be, not who we truly are. That's Lewis Howes.
Starting point is 00:01:14 This week on The Rich Roll Podcast. The Rich Roll Podcast. Hey, everybody. How you guys doing? What's happening? How are you? This is your friendly neighborhood podcast host, Rich Roll. Welcome or welcome back to my podcast, the show where I do my best to have in-depth, meaningful conversations that matter with some of the brightest, most pioneering minds in health, fitness, nutrition, athletics, medicine, social entrepreneurship, entertainment, and so much more. I want to talk about a word that gets tossed around pretty cavalierly these days, authenticity.
Starting point is 00:02:04 It's a weird one, right? It's a great word, but it's also been so co-opted and commodified that even using it now kind of feels a little bit hacky. And that's kind of a bummer because what that word authenticity represents is actually beautiful. It's a beautiful sentiment. I suppose there are a variety of interpretations and definitions, but to me, it means living honestly with integrity, aligning your actions with your words. It means the courage and the self-confidence to be open, to be vulnerable, to live, breathe, and move in alignment with your truest, highest self. And it's what I aspire to. It's something I do my best to inject into my work. And it's a
Starting point is 00:02:54 consistent theme of this podcast. And yet, it's undeniable that we all wear masks of some form or another. Even the most well-intentioned among us, myself of course included, project a version of ourselves on the world. Not the raw truth, but an edited facsimile, custom-tailored to suit the expectations of our social environment. Case in point, this is probably take four of this introduction. Why didn't I just put out take one? Well, because I felt like it
Starting point is 00:03:25 wasn't good enough. It didn't reflect the quality of the words that I wanted to express to you guys. So, I guess I'm wearing a mask right now. But in any event, in other words, we show the world an impression of ourselves, what we want the world to see. And on some level, I suppose this is, or it could be characterized as dishonest, but it's also just human. We all do it to a degree, one form or another. We do it because we're afraid, because we're insecure, because honesty and vulnerability are terrifying. And we think we're doing the right thing, upholding that social contract by embodying what it means to be masculine or feminine. But these notions are false. They're misguided and they're often
Starting point is 00:04:12 dangerous, disconnecting us from our potential, the best version of ourselves. And as counterintuitive as it may sound, the more that we can summon the courage to remove these masks, masks that we've been wearing for so long and so persistently that we're not even consciously aware of them, and shed them in exchange for being open, for being raw, honest, for being vulnerable, for being who we really are, as scary as that sounds. I think the more integrated, the more whole, secure, confident, and dare I say, authentic, we ultimately become. And with that comes a sense of being fully integrated, a fully integrated human being, of being whole, a sense of being at peace with yourself, empowered. And that's freedom. I've traveled this road a bit,
Starting point is 00:05:07 very imperfectly, but enough to know that it is indeed a beautiful path to blaze. In any event, this is the subject of today's conversation. To shepherd us through it is my friend Lewis Howes, who is the host of the very popular School of Greatness podcast. He's a New York Times bestselling author of the book, The School of Greatness, and the guy behind a brand new book coming out this week called The Mask of Masculinity. We're going to get into it in a minute. But first, I wanted to pause, take a moment to say thank you. You know why? Because we did it. We exceeded my charity water fundraising goal of raising $51,000. In fact, as of the date I'm recording this, which is October 26th, we have raised over $57,000 to bring clean water projects to those in need. To put it in proper perspective,
Starting point is 00:06:01 that means that about 2,000 people will have access to clean water for the very first time. And that's not even counting future generations. Basically, you, all of you guys, the listeners, literally answered the call and are breathing life into communities, transforming their lives forever. Which, I don't know about you, I think that's about the coolest thing that I can imagine. I couldn't have done it without each and every one of you. So again, thank you. Scott Harrison, thanks you. Charity Water, thanks you. And everyone who will soon benefit from your extreme generosity, thanks you. I'm extremely grateful for all of you. for all of you. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And
Starting point is 00:06:59 it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care, especially because unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. It's a real problem. A problem I'm now happy and proud to share has been solved by the people at recovery.com who created an online support portal designed to guide, to support, and empower you to find the ideal level of care tailored to your personal needs. They've partnered with the best global behavioral
Starting point is 00:07:45 health providers to cover the full spectrum of behavioral health disorders, including substance use disorders, depression, anxiety, eating disorders, gambling addictions, and more. Navigating their site is simple. Search by insurance coverage, location, treatment type, you name it. Plus, you can read reviews from former patients to help you decide. Whether you're a busy exec, a parent of a struggling teen, or battling addiction yourself, I feel you. I empathize with you. I really do.
Starting point is 00:08:17 And they have treatment options for you. Life in recovery is wonderful, and recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life.
Starting point is 00:08:59 And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care, especially because, unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. It's a real problem, a problem I'm now happy and proud to share has been solved by the people at recovery.com who created an online support portal designed to guide, to support, and empower you to find the full spectrum of behavioral health disorders, including substance use disorders, depression, anxiety, eating disorders, gambling addictions, and more. Navigating their site is simple. Search by insurance coverage, location, treatment type, you name it. Plus, you can read reviews from former patients to help you decide. Whether you're a busy exec, a parent of a struggling teen, or battling addiction yourself, I feel you.
Starting point is 00:10:10 I empathize with you. I really do. And they have treatment options for you. Life in recovery is wonderful, and recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again,
Starting point is 00:10:33 go to recovery.com. Okay, Lewis Howes. Lewis and I both started out our podcast right around the same time, five years ago. We've sort of grown up alongside of each other on this journey. I've been on his show twice, and this is his third appearance on my show. And I can honestly say this is the best, most open, dynamic, and honest of the three conversations that I've had with Lewis. We cover our respective podcasting adventures. We talk about the importance of storytelling, of telling our story, your story as a catalyst for positive change. Then we delve into this issue of projection, why we wear these masks, why we don't talk about what we're ashamed of, what we fear, especially men, by first exploring some traumatic
Starting point is 00:11:26 aspects of Lewis's upbringing that led him to don certain masks and the cathartic freeing journey that he embarked on to attempt to remove them and how this led Lewis to thinking more deeply about these issues and ultimately to writing about them in his new book. But at its core, this is a conversation about reframing vulnerability, upending the notion that vulnerability is a weakness and reframing it as a superpower because your ability to own your story and face your fears is ultimately your greatest strength. I should point out that although this one focuses on the masks that men wear on redefining what it means to be truly masculine, the themes and the topics that we explore throughout
Starting point is 00:12:15 this conversation are applicable to all. Okay, so this is me and Lewis Howes. Lewis Howes, man, in the house. I'm excited, man. You hold a special place in my heart because we started this podcast journey basically at almost exactly the same time. I think you started a couple months before me, right? Maybe, yeah. I think I had a two-month lead.
Starting point is 00:12:40 I was the big expert at that point. You were, man. I was like, what do I do, Rich? What do I do? But I remember vividly you had just moved to LA and we had been introduced. And so I made my way over to West Hollywood, your pad. And you were in like some temporary apartment situation. And you broke out like the crappiest little mics, you know, like tiny little mic. And I'm like, all right, let's do this.
Starting point is 00:13:04 And we had a great conversation. Um, and then we talked about podcasting and like what you, what your vision for what you were doing was that time. And it was cool, man. We connected then. And then we've sort of been on each other's shows a couple of times and we've been on this, you know, journey separately, but kind of together. Like I'm always checking in on you. What's he doing? How's he growing? Wow. And you've just exploded. So I'm proud of you. It's really cool to see. Well, I always look at your stuff because you have the best newsletters. You have like the cleanest design and I'm always like, gosh, he's got such good design. So I always appreciate the way you deliver your message. I appreciate that, man. I put a lot of time into
Starting point is 00:13:42 it, probably too much, you know, but like, I like the details. Yeah. A little bit, man. I put a lot of time into it, probably too much, you know, but like, I like the details. Yeah. A little bit, man. To my, to my detriment at times, I think, you know, you're and you're, you are, you would always say to me, man, you got to move forward. Like, just keep going. Keep it. You don't go, you let go a little bit, let people in. You got to systematize and I would like clutch on, like trying to control every little detail. And I've gotten, I've grown a lot in that regard. Like I've gotten a lot better. I have a team now and I have support and it's been amazing, but I still have that like impulse, you know, that I'm trying to overcome a little bit. I hear you, man. It's hard for me. I wanted to, cause when I started years ago in the online marketing space, I did everything myself from the newsletter to the social media, to the customer
Starting point is 00:14:20 support, to the sales and marketing webinars. And I wanted to learn it all. But I think as I've let go more and more, it's like my business has grown. So even though it's like, oh, people make mistakes and I get frustrated sometimes, but it's like, you know what? I want to be able to grow as fast. And I got to be okay with some of those mistakes because other people are going to make mistakes. Yeah. Well, yeah, that's ultimately how you got to, you got to let go to grow. Yeah.
Starting point is 00:14:43 Right. And so now you got like all these people that come over to your apartment every day yes do you ever feel like it's like encringing like encroaching on your actual personal private space like are you able to like create a boundary around that because they're literally like walking around your bedroom not in my bedroom kind of but i mean it's all right there you know what i mean how many people like you've got like five or six people over there. Yeah. I think we got eight to 10 total, but half of them are in other cities. You're going to have to get a real office, I think, at some point.
Starting point is 00:15:11 They're in other cities, so it's okay. Okay. There's like five or six here locally. It just depends on the record days. Then we have more people in there, but if they're not recording a podcast, then it's my space. I think like if I grew to three to six more people i'd probably get another space and like just do a little co-working thing and figure it out right so the dogs are barking hey man it's real life for life we're living authentically here we're in
Starting point is 00:15:36 you know calabasas malibu you know so i'm interested before we get in we're gonna unpack the book and and you know your journey with masculinity and all of that. And you did a great job with this book. Congratulations. You're in at the first page. Thanks for dropping my name on there. Uh, but before we do that, like, let's just camp out a little bit on the podcasting thing. Like I'm just interested in what this journey has meant to you, like where you see it going. You know, I think, I don't think either of us could have foreseen at that time when we first met that, that, you know, each of our shows would have the reach that they have. And, and, you know, I certainly have thoughts and opinions about like what it's meant to me, how it's changed my life and how I approach it, how I think about it. You know, what is my
Starting point is 00:16:17 responsibility to the audience and to finding the right guests and all of that? Like, how do you think about all that? Yeah. I mean, there's a lot I want to unpack. But for me, it's, I mean, it's almost been five years for you. Because I think you started in October. And in November, I think. And in November. Because it's five years for me and end of January. Right.
Starting point is 00:16:34 So, yeah, we're coming up on the, I can't believe it. Five years, man. It's crazy. It has changed my life. It's changed everything about my business, my life, my relationships. And it's been an amazing platform. Because I've always wanted to share my message, but I didn't know the best way to deliver it. So this has allowed me to have impact on people. And we do, you do retreats, I do events.
Starting point is 00:16:54 And just to see, you know, almost a thousand people come together who found the podcast and found meaning in some insights they heard on the podcast. podcast and found meaning in some insights they heard on the podcast and to say, I'm going to fly around the world to come to this experience, to meet other people who listen as well, see speakers. It's so amazing. I just don't know anywhere else I could, could have done that and deliver it in such an intimate way where people are listening for an hour, you know, have headphones on or in their car, their commute, their workouts, when they're going to bed, when they're waking up, some of the most intimate times for people, they're listening. And when you say, you know, I really think about my audience and curate the guests carefully because I'm sure like you, I have a lot of friends who I'm like close with who, who hound me and like, Hey man, when are you gonna have me on? Yeah. And even not that close to friends, but just like well-known business people or successful
Starting point is 00:17:49 entrepreneurs or whatever it may be. There's a guy right now who's messaging me a lot. Who's got a book coming out. Who's just messaging me. Like, I'm not going to take no for an answer. And I'm like, listen, I say no to my family members, to my friends who I like love. And it's not about you. It's about the community. And it's not about you it's about the community and it's not about me and our relationship it's about the community and there have been times in the past where I had people on because I felt pressure to and it wasn't effective it didn't get results for my community and they questioned it they're like why'd you do this so I've learned to really make sure that I'm aware of
Starting point is 00:18:22 who I'm having on the topic, the conversation, the flow of it to serve my audience in the biggest, the biggest way, because if not, I feel like it's doing a disservice to the audience. Yeah. I completely agree with that. And I'm, I was just talking to David about this the other day, like I'm in the same situation and I'm a people pleaser by nature. And I have people who, uh, yeah, you know, I have somebody who's messaging me a lot right now. And I feel like I'm like a conflict avoidant person. So I just don't, don't apply. Yeah. And it's like, Oh, I feel like I'm like, please don't ask me to be, you know, it's, it puts me in an awkward situation because like you, it's like, I'm thinking about the
Starting point is 00:18:59 audience. What is the best, you know, who, who are the best people that I can bring on? And you know, I don't do, you do more episodes per week than I do. So I'm looking at, okay, so that leaves me 52 people a year. You do one a week. Yeah, I do. Sometimes I do a second one, but those are usually like Q&As that I've done or things like that. So you need 52 of the highest quality individuals. Yeah, so I'm trying to find, and it's not like the most famous person or the most accomplished.
Starting point is 00:19:24 It's like, who's the right fit? Who can I gel? Like, who excites me? It's just as much about like, I've learned to trust my intuition. And I've made that mistake of everybody says you need this person on. And I'm like, I guess. If you're not excited, though. And then I do it.
Starting point is 00:19:37 And then because I'm not as into it as maybe somebody else is, then it ends up being lackluster. And it doesn't deliver. It doesn't land. That's the challenge too. I've got my publisher is actually trying to send me other authors that they publish as well. They're like, well, you have this person on and this person on, it's kind of like they expect me to do it. And I'm like, listen, my audience, you know, if I'm not interested, if I'm not excited, if it doesn't make me curious, then my audience is going to be excited either. They'll know. They'll see through it right there.
Starting point is 00:20:05 And then they kind of make me feel bad and pressure me more. And I'm like, guys, come on. Well, it's a problem of success because now, like I remember in the beginning, it's like I'm scouring the earth trying to get somebody to come on who will say yes. And now it's an embarrassment of riches because you get to choose. And that comes with it. And that's amazing. And I get emails from publicists like pitching book
Starting point is 00:20:26 and all that kind of stuff. So you have access now that I didn't have. Or if I tweet somebody, like I can get a response and it didn't used to be that way, but that carries with it the responsibility to make sure that you're serving the audience and what's in their best interest. And how do you curate these guests
Starting point is 00:20:44 to create an experience thatate you know these guests to create an experience that you know takes you from one guest to the next and creates kind of a thematic through line with what you're trying to accomplish do you feel like you've lost any friends because you've said no to people or like people stop talking to you because you want to have them on or i mean i don't know if it's gotten that bad but you know it definitely it's just awkward you know it was it's just awkward you know it was it's just awkward i was at a con i spoke at a conference uh a couple days ago and there were a lot of people there it was you know it was like a thousand people and it was amazing and i there's
Starting point is 00:21:13 nothing more gratifying than spending a couple hours afterwards like talking to everybody who comes up and like i want to give everybody the most attention i can because they're telling me you know their their, their personal stories, you know, and that's a beautiful thing that you want to honor and cherish. But there's the occasional person who then, you know, gives you their card. I'd love to be a guest on the show. It's not a public book or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, that's nice. You know, like if I had a book, I would do the same thing probably, but it's not a public access service. You know what I mean? probably, but it's not a public access service. You know what I mean? And it's easy for me to like,
Starting point is 00:21:55 um, not be as mindful about that boundary as I should be. And I get myself into trouble and I'm trying to learn to be better because it is about the audience, right? It is man. Otherwise you'll lose the audience. Yeah. Yeah. Ultimately, you know, it works across purposes with what you're trying to do yeah but you've grown this thing into like a massive enterprise it's been problem man i had no idea like you that it would take off this way and you know my last two books are because of the podcast the information i gained from the interviews i did i turned into books um you know events courses programs speaking you know all these getting on ellen you know, events, courses, programs, speaking, you know, all these getting on Ellen, you know, all these things have happened because of the podcast. They wouldn't have happened without the podcast. It was a, it was a, uh, I think we were at, you know, it's the one I look at it.
Starting point is 00:22:35 Like it's the one time in my life where I feel like I was at the right place at the right time, because it wasn't cool when we started, but it was, we were on the cusp of it becoming something that nobody could have foreseen. Because I think at that time, what people don't remember or realize is that podcasting was around from 2006, somewhere around then. And it just kind of was a stagnant thing. You know, it was kind of growing, but like no one was really listening. No one was catching on.
Starting point is 00:23:00 And when I started, I didn't think of it, you know, I didn't think of us being like early adopters. Yeah. Cause we were like eight years late. Yeah. I mean, it's, it had been going on, but there was no indication that this was on the cusp of becoming a mainstream way to consume content, you know, and what's special about it is what you said earlier, which is it is so intimate, you know, it's the one form of media that you can consume while you're doing something else and people have their earbuds on and you're, you're like right into their brain, you know, it's the one form of media that you can consume while you're doing something else and people have their earbuds on and you're, you're like right into their brain, you know, it's crazy. And I'm sure people say this to you all the time.
Starting point is 00:23:30 Like, oh, you know, I go to bed with you every night or I listen to you when I'm cooking or on the treadmill or when I'm commuting every day and, and a relationship develops, you know, and I know this because I listened to other podcasts and I feel like I'm friends with these hosts that I've never met. There's something really like, you know, uh, powerful about that. listen to other podcasts and I feel like I'm friends with these hosts that I've never met, there's something really like, you know, uh, powerful about that. And I think it is important as a host to, to remember that and make sure that you're honoring that all the time. Yeah, exactly. And it's easy to get, you can get starry eyed and, you know, chase these people who look great on paper, but not necessarily are not necessarily the best people for the show.
Starting point is 00:24:05 And I found, and I'm interested in what you think about this. Like it's super fun to interview famous people. I mean, don't get me wrong. Like that's like, Oh my God, I can't believe I'm sitting and talking to them. I can't believe they agreed to do this, but they're so seasoned at doing interviews that it's really difficult to don't open up there. Yeah. Cause they're just like, okay, they're going to do their spiel. And I feel like you almost have to exhaust them or you got to interrupt and throw them off their game or do something like, how can I make this different or unique? Like, how can I, um, approach this from a different angle? And that can be difficult. So sometimes those interviews end up being not as, um, impactful just because it feels like it's
Starting point is 00:24:43 on the surface. You know, I agree. That's why I have a process every time before I interview someone, I ask them a couple of questions to get them ready to open up. And I asked them, is there anything off limits before we start? I build rapport, we're connecting,
Starting point is 00:24:59 hanging out. But then I say, okay, is there anything off limits that you don't want to talk about? And usually most of the time they say no. they say yes then i say well usually that thing will actually be the most impactful thing we talk about so i try to get them to say yes to the thing they don't want to talk about to talk about and then i ask them um okay do i have permission to take this anywhere and everywhere to make this the most impactful thing you've ever done and i just give it a beat and usually they're like oh okay this is about to be something
Starting point is 00:25:28 interesting and then i say what would make this the most powerful interview you've ever done what do we have to do say go be and then i think just constantly kind of confirming and grounding into that like this is going to be something different that's helped me before trying to like pull something out of them it's like they're already in like an open state i feel like it's been really a fashion that's smart man i like that that's interesting i think ask your person is there anything off limits i definitely do that because i want them to feel comfortable and i want them to know like hey man i'm not here to burn you like i want and i say like look when we're done with this if you you know a day later you're like i wish i didn't say this thing or i misspoke about this can you change like i'm yeah man i'm like you know i'm not here to mischaracterize you that's
Starting point is 00:26:14 not what this is about like i just want to create that sense of comfort um but i like that that follow-up line of questions is interesting yeah interesting. Yeah. It helps. Have you, um, have you, uh, been in that situation where somebody is on your show, they're well-known, but they're not really like, they don't, they don't totally know who you are, what you do. And so they're like, what am I doing here? Like my publicist told me to be here, but like, yeah, I had, I had, I had a couple of those ones. Yeah. I had meatloaf on and that was, that was interesting because he was more just like constantly talking about his like new record or whatever, his new CD. And he was like constantly talking about it.
Starting point is 00:26:54 And I was like, okay, let's talk about other stuff. And if you're, if you fascinate my audience, I'm sure they'll support you. But if we just talk about the thing the whole time, like if I was just here talking about get my book, get my book, like every every 10 seconds it'd be like a boring interview so it's almost like don't talk about the thing you're trying to promote and give such amazing value that people are like i want to support this person yeah like whatever they have usually we have authors on where we're selling books or whatever promoting books and um yeah and i think he's older he's just kind
Starting point is 00:27:25 of like, you know, doing his thing, whatever, but yeah, he was still great. You know, it was just, it's, it's, uh, I mean, look, you know, we both have these outlets. And so when people have books coming out, like you do, like they want to get it out there and like, I'm happy to oblige if I like the person and I'm interested in the book is good and I'm interested in what they have to say, but, but I'm not here to be just your publicity yeah exactly service or whatever so yeah it has to be it has to be a blend like that add value give me 90 95 of all value and then we'll talk about thing for five percent and then i'll do a big push around it you know and the more valuable the interview is i'm gonna promote it like crazy if it's not that interesting to me i kind of like
Starting point is 00:28:05 barely put it out there i'm just kind of like yeah here you guys go you know but if i love it i'll tell my team like we got to make three uh inspirational videos around this we got to make like all the quote cards like everything and blow it up and really wow the person so they'll share it so that's what we'd really try to focus on well you've got the internet figured out try man i don't know i'm trying to catch up to your design quality, you know? You've got the aesthetic. You know, I'm lagging in terms of like how I utilize and leverage the internet. I mean, I don't know.
Starting point is 00:28:33 You know, I just, I could probably benefit from putting a little more energy and thought into it. But, you know, I don't know. I have to do what feels right to me also, I think. I think less about it. When you look back on, how many episodes have you done now? 540, I believe. Yeah. So like you started two months after me, but I'm at, there's, oh, I should come up.
Starting point is 00:28:55 I think I'm at 320 or something like that. So you put out like quite a few more. We do two interviews a week, Monday, Wednesday interviews, and then like a five minute story. I'm starting to do more stories like metaphors, parables, things like that. Come on, come here, girl. She's fun. And the story is actually really effective because I'm also like, there's only so many things I can come up with myself and like inspire, motivate.
Starting point is 00:29:21 And so I'm trying to find more stories that I didn't even think of that are just great stories that people that can relate to people's lives right now. And it's been really effective. So when you look back on those 500 plus episodes, like what did you, like what, what mistakes do you think other than what we already talked about? Like, do you think back and like, I wish I hadn't done that or I could have saved a lot of time or i wish i would have done video sooner because i remember when you started that and you were like i spent a lot of money i spent a lot of money man all the gear all the full-time editor i mean it was a lot and just trying to build up youtube and all these things i started at the end of last year so about a year a little over a year and a half with video but i remember like jonathan fields had a video podcast starting and then he switched to just audio i know he's still
Starting point is 00:30:09 audio i believe and i remember being like gosh everyone's just going audio because it's so much work and i was like that's why i think i need to do video because not many people are doing it and it gives me another piece of content i can share on Facebook and YouTube and build other channels. So I was just decided to invest in it. But in terms of, I wish I would, you know, I remember thinking like this was going to take off. I just had a feeling because I was talking to Derek Halpern and Pat Flynn and a few other people who had podcasts back in 2012 2011 and i remember like hearing them say like wow this is starting to pick up like before there was any news about podcasts or before cereal and all these things they're like this is picking up for me like i didn't expect it to be and it's picking up and i just felt like this was around you know four or five years ago this is when
Starting point is 00:31:01 smartphones everyone's getting an ip. It was more accessible. The podcast apps were more accessible for people. And I was just like, I think it's going to take off. You came out with it. A few of the John Lee Dumas came out with it around the same time. I think maybe a few months before you. And I was just like, I'm going to do a podcast.
Starting point is 00:31:17 And I told myself, I'm not going to listen to anyone's show. I think what I did well was not listen to anyone else's. That could either hurt me or help me. I think it helped me. Cause I was like, I came from a place of what's the thing I would want to hear? How would I want to hit the intro, the reads, everything? How would the flow be if I was a listener? And so I wasn't skewed one way or another to what other people did. I wasn't influenced. I just said, I'm going to create the podcast I'd want to listen to. And, uh, I'm
Starting point is 00:31:44 grateful for that i think i don't know if i changed much maybe have nicer equipment early on and you know do video but i didn't know what was going to happen no i mean you know you you grow into it and you evolve you know what i mean i think that's an important lesson for anybody who's looking to create anything like go back and look at that person's first whatever you know what i mean like you listen to my first episode your first episode you look at anybody you know any filmmaker's first video on youtube whatever like you'll realize like there's an arc and it's okay you know you don't have to have it all figured out and when people ask me what's my gear it's like i don't usually answer it's like
Starting point is 00:32:19 first of all you can figure that out on the internet in five minutes it's not about that you know it's about like what is it that you're, you want to express and just start doing that. And if it, if it clicks for you, you'll figure out the rest and you'll grow into it. That's it. Yeah.
Starting point is 00:32:32 I didn't know how I was going to do. I was like, I'm gonna do this for a year, once a week and see how it does. And then I was like, okay, I'm going to do another year twice a week. So what,
Starting point is 00:32:39 where do you see it going? Just keep doing it. Or you have a plan for growing? Like, I feel like it's, it's it's going to continue to grow but it's harder to grow as well because there's so many other podcasts yeah i mean if we were starting now forget about it it'd be so hard man now so hard but there are podcasts that are launching right now that are getting to the top and staying there because they're so
Starting point is 00:33:01 different and so unique and that's great great. I think that's great. You know, bring more awareness to the podcast space. Um, yeah, I don't know. I feel like I personally, I want to be just a couple of years ahead of the curve of what everyone else is, is willing to do because podcasting, when we did it was hard to do not people weren't doing it because they didn't understand it. It was still challenging to get it up. And I was just like, in a couple of years, this is going to take off.
Starting point is 00:33:29 I just had that feeling like it's going to take off. And so I'm thinking of, okay, how can I continue to make this the foundation and grow the podcast, but leverage it into other things like books and other talk shows, TV shows, documentaries, Netflix shows, things like that, where I can find and curate talent and information and then build something even more beautiful around that one piece of content. But what's that one person I could do a documentary on that could be another multimillion dollar brand or a book series or something that's different that people, it's hard to write a book you know
Starting point is 00:34:05 it takes a couple years takes a while to launch it to do the whole traditional publishing thing it's challenging most people aren't willing to do that stuff most people aren't willing to do documentaries like your friends have done and that's where i want to start going into because i believe that content we can continue to create powerful, meaningful content and spend a little bit of money into it to make it even better and stand out. That's going to be the difference maker. So are you actively developing some projects like that? I'm in the middle of a documentary right now. I mean, I hired a film crew. They've been filming the last couple months of the process, won my live event. And you remember the movie, The Secret?
Starting point is 00:34:46 So I'm kind of doing The Secret on steroids, but mainstream, not like woo-woo-y. And I'm developing that right now where, you know, this is the 10-year anniversary of me getting injured playing professional football. It's actually a month ago when I got injured 10 years ago. And I'm doing, I did this big event in Columbus, Ohio called the summit of greatness. So I brought my entire movement back to Columbus where I'm from. And then I'm launching a book here in the next month. And then I'm getting an award for the philanthropy philanthropist of the year award for pencil promise in December.
Starting point is 00:35:20 And I'm working on a few other projects in between. So I was just like, I want to capture all this three months, like the press, the book tour, like the event, everything. And I think it's going to mostly be tailored around this event because we had some unbelievable footage and great content. We did sit down interviews with every speaker, with them on stage, with the attendees,
Starting point is 00:35:41 got stories of the attendees. So I think there's something there. You know, Tony Robbins did great with his documentary i'm not your guru and then my friends i think you know joshua fields milburn from minimalism yeah they're docked it great crushed it blew them up blew them up i don't know if he i don't know if it's public they're the numbers but essentially they almost 10x their download numbers well their podcast their podcast exploded in the wake of that because they had it for a while and then suddenly they were like you know they were
Starting point is 00:36:09 like in the top 40 or 50 on itunes eight months yeah and they said it was because of the documentary on netflix and their book tours were sold out all around the world and everything and i was like yeah these two guys in our space, I think did it well. Tony Robbins. I heard, I don't know the numbers, but I heard it tripled his business since the documentary came out from his events to everything else, his courses, everything. And then minimalism, those guys are just crushed with that. And I think they're doing another documentary.
Starting point is 00:36:40 So I think that is a space that is so untapped because one- They moved here from Montana. They moved here. Montana to do more content Yeah, so I think Netflix what Facebook's doing Facebook watch I'm working on a show and developing It's still not public yet, but we're developing a show with them right now. I think It's because it's people don't understand how to get on Netflix. It's not like an easy thing We can just upload a piece of content You know, you're working with agents and distributors and all these things and they're expensive to just upload a piece of content. You know, you're working with agents and
Starting point is 00:37:05 distributors and all these things, and they're expensive to get a good piece of content. You know, people aren't willing to invest. I'm willing to invest in spending a couple hundred grand on a book development and spending a few hundred thousand dollars on a documentary, which may not even be anything. It might just be a marketing piece for next year's event if I can't sell it because I haven't sold it yet. But I just believe in this vision that if I'm willing to invest in high quality content and great storytelling that moves the consciousness forward in a positive way and helps humanity, I just believe it's going to work out. Well, I think you're well on your way. I mean, you're, you're, you're some of the greatness was this the third year that you've done that second year yeah yeah i mean just seeing clips that you
Starting point is 00:37:49 shared like on instagram and stuff like that i need to post more pretty crazy it was fun and i could see the development from the first year already just in terms of like your production value and all of that kind of stuff so yeah it's cool man it's been fun yeah i've never i never never did a podcast never wrote a book before never a live event. I was not like an event guy, uh, never done a documentary or movie, but I'm just like, I want to do things that excite me that are challenging, but also that proved myself that I don't have to have done something before in order to make something amazing and great that I can learn on the go. And I can also create something that I would want to consume. So again, the podcast I created, cause it's the thing I wish I had growing up the book I created because it's the wish I,
Starting point is 00:38:35 the book I could have read the event is the event I wish I could have attended all these things. And the documentary is the documentary that I would watch. That's what I focus on. Well, that's the only, only valid way to approach any creative endeavor. I mean, it has to be from the heart and what you want to express. If you start polling and, like, trying to figure out what an audience wants, it's not going to work. Yeah, exactly. So, who knows? I take a, you know, I tried to develop a magazine last year, Greatness Magazine.
Starting point is 00:39:03 I remember you talking to me about that. Yeah, maybe we interviewed you for it. We did three full issues that we never released. We had them all complete. They look amazing. They're so beautiful. But it was like right around the time when the Apple like magazine app or news app transitioned to something else. And I was just like, this is taking so much of our time, so much money.
Starting point is 00:39:23 And I don't know if we're going to make any money from this so i spent all this money and six months of time and energy and just canned it i was like we're just putting on pause it was like two years ago and i'm actually thinking about resurrecting and bringing it back for next year um so we'll see i just like to do things that don't make money but they're fun for me you you know? Yeah. But I also feel like, you know, what's the thing that will attract the most influential people in the world who could add value to my audience? I think having a magazine could feed the ego of all the publicists and be like, yeah, we want to get our client on greatness magazine, right? If you're going to put them on the cover, sure. We'll give you an interview. So it's like, I feel like that might be my way to get like will smith of the world the rocks the jim carrey's
Starting point is 00:40:08 all those people because they'll do a magazine cover but they may never do a podcast yeah i don't know i think jim carrey might might i think jim carrey might be more willing to do a long form podcast than a magazine interview true yeah i I talked upon that viral. Did you see that? Oh yeah. Well, here's the thing. I was talking to his publicist about two or three weeks before all this stuff came out. Cause I've been trying to get him on for a while. And, um, I really, he's been one of my top three since I started the podcast. I would love to interview him. Cause I think it'd be a fascinating. And I was on the phone with his publicist. We were like, she was like, I might be able to make it happen.
Starting point is 00:40:48 I was like, I'll do whatever it takes. I was offering like $10,000 to donate to his charity. I was like, whatever. Because I believe someone like that, the information that we do together is going to impact so many millions of people that it's worth me investing just to be able to spread some type of positive message. It's like it's worth it to me. Yeah. So what happened? He was going like the Toronto Film Festival or something.
Starting point is 00:41:15 And he was like, maybe we can have it happen there. And I was like, I'll pay you more if we can do it in LA so I don't have to travel. And I've been following up and she hasn't come back to me. So we'll see. Well, you know, these things are, as I'm sure you know, like timing is so important. Timing and everything. These things like, you know,
Starting point is 00:41:31 I've done interviews that took me two years to schedule it. Cause you and I, we do, we only do them live. Right. So it's like, you know, when's the person going to be here? And are you available? Or when you're, you know, whatever, like it just, these things are percolating all the time. Who's the biggest guest you got that you try to get for a long time that you're like um i don't know i got a few that i'm working on right now you know who's someone you did have that you're like took two
Starting point is 00:41:55 years or whatever um let's see who uh moby was cool oh that's you know he was great um travis barker was awesome that's sweet uh i don't know a couple people like that you're like the malibu like influencer crowd out here so i feel like it's easy you're like a little pocket of all these people that live out here yeah but like it's it's different because you don't you don't run into people on the street you know everything's spread out out here like yeah i know people around here and stuff like that but that's not always how it works you know and i i've learned to like i don't force these things because I only want people to come on if they want to, because it doesn't, if they're like, if they feel like, like, oh, they're doing a favor or something, it's not going to be good. Like I want them to be there because they want to be there. You know what I mean? So I don't,
Starting point is 00:42:38 I don't like pressure anybody or anything like that. And it's, it's tricky when you live in Los Angeles because you meet a lot of people, right people right and like you can't just roll up on you know you meet some cool person you can't just immediately i don't know maybe you do but like you know i don't like i have to i play like a you know like more of a coy yeah yeah longer there's one person i i want to get to know the person first before there's actually someone i went up to that i came on my show uh uh tay diggs uh-huh who i saw him but we had mutual friends and i'd heard about him through a mutual friend for a long time so i just went up and said hey man you know i've got a mutual friend she told me to say hi he was like oh yeah yeah yeah and he was like then i mentioned my podcast he's like i'd love to come on i was
Starting point is 00:43:19 like okay cool you know should i follow up your publicist and he was like here just take my cell right so i actually went up to uh l cool J as a guy I want to get on, and he follows me on Instagram, and he comments on my stuff and likes my stuff. So I saw him at a spa in L.A., and I went up to him when he was done with his meeting, and I just said, hey, man, big fan, and you follow me on Instagram and this and that. I'd love to get you on my podcast. I've reached out a few times. He goes, yeah, I do it he's like just send me a message i go i have you haven't responded he goes send me he goes dm me right now and i'll get back to you so i did
Starting point is 00:43:53 and we've been you know trying to find a time he's just like so busy but yeah like i said you know they happen when they're supposed to happen they happen when they're supposed to. All right. Well, let's talk about the new book, The Mask of Masculinity. I mean, before we kind of get into it in depth, you know, I'm interested in what motivated you to, you know, explore this topic of masculinity and specifically, you know, how, you know, as men, um, you know, it can be difficult and confusing to, you know, understand how to communicate with yourself and with other people and, you know, the kind of way that we're raised to, uh, wear these masks in their various forms that prevent us from connecting with our own emotions and thus connecting with other people and ultimately hamstringing our personal development
Starting point is 00:44:53 and growth so like what what began you know what yeah i mean it's an interesting step from your first book school of greatness and then this is kind of like a you know a much more mindful you know soulful book yeah i'm the first you know my whole life i've always a couple a couple things of why i did this my whole life the dog come here girl she's fine if you start petting her then she'll never leave that's why i stopped yeah uh you know there's a couple things one i like to do things that kind of shock people about me like i don't like to do the thing that people think i'm going to do you know i never drank in college or high school because people said that they thought i was going to be like a drunk jock and i was like okay well let me prove you wrong type of thing i was like i never wanted to be the guy that people thought, um, or assumed I would do
Starting point is 00:45:47 something. So on Gretchen Rubin's four tendencies quiz, you're a rebel. Yes. So much of a rebel. Yeah. Um, so that's one. And two, I want to do things that are super meaningful to me and challenge me. And after the school of greatness book my agent and
Starting point is 00:46:06 publisher were like okay let's do one on business and marketing and i was like it's just boring to me it just does it's not exciting to me i was like sure i can sell a ton of these but it wasn't what made me excited inside or interested or curious and as i was writing the book and really uh the school greatness and really the year and a half, two years before I started opening up more about being sexually abused, which I've talked to you about. We talked about that. About, you know, just being bullied, picked on, just, you know, and also not really having a lot of emotional awareness in relationships. I felt like I would always get triggered. I'm sure a lot of people can relate to that, but I just never felt like I could end a relationship gracefully.
Starting point is 00:46:46 I was so afraid to be alone. So what was your strategy? Like cut and run and then, you know, pretend the person doesn't exist or like when you would break up with somebody. It was like just constant back and forth, like arguing and stress. And I was like a coward always. Like I could never just end it when I knew like it was too long past, you know, sometimes you're like in the, I don't know phase,
Starting point is 00:47:09 but it's like when you know, and you're like going on for another six to 12 months, it's like, okay, what's going on? Right. And I was afraid. I think I was emotionally afraid to not have that intimacy, have that connection,
Starting point is 00:47:19 have that friendship, whatever it was. I was just afraid in my teens and early twenties. And I went through a pretty bad breakup when i moved here that made me so angry all the time made me just like go off on everyone else in my life my business partners playing pickup basketball and i got in a really bad fight where i put a guy in a hospital because we were, we were just trash talking and fouling each other hard. And then all of a sudden it turned into a fight in a, there was zero stakes on this
Starting point is 00:47:52 pickup basketball game. There was nothing on the line. It's just our egos flared up so much. He actually hit me first, but then I was just, was determined to finish it. Like my ego was so hurt that I was like, I'm going to ruin you. And it was about that time when the relationship was going all over the place. I got in these fights and my, I just realized I was more and more angry and resentful. And I started to open up about the sexual abuse. I went to a couple of workshops that helped me kind of open up and start talking for the first time in 25 years and i realized wow my entire life i've come from a place of i need to be right and i need to win and in order for me to be right and me to win that means everyone else needed to lose and everyone else needed to be wrong so zero-sum game and compulsion that comes
Starting point is 00:48:42 from where yeah like what is the genesis of that? Where did that come from? That need to like, you know, be the best or win. I think a number of the events, you know, being sexually abused. I was picked last on sports teams often. Oh, come on, dude. You were like a, you must've been the biggest kid in your class. I was.
Starting point is 00:48:58 And I was athletic. But I was like in the special needs classes in schools. And I was always had the, you know, it was me and like four kids with like in the special needs classes in schools and I was always had the, uh, you know, it was me and like four kids with like in a wheelchair. And it was like always, they've associated me as like the dumb, stupid kid. And so they didn't want to hang out with me.
Starting point is 00:49:16 So it was more of like just bullying me or just kind of picking on me because I wasn't able to read and write well and had a stutter and all these other things. And it was just like, I was just like the awkward, tall, goofy looking kid that was picked on. And again, my story is not unique because I think a lot of people were picked on for whatever they had going on growing up. But that my brother went to prison when I was eight years old for four and a half years. So I would visit him in a visitor visiting room at the prison every every saturday or sunday and we should point out just for the listener that your brother has transcended that experience and become a very accomplished musician greatest jazz violinist in the world now and it's an amazing story we're
Starting point is 00:49:55 actually writing a book about that um so i think those events like a lot of that and also my parents were kind of just arguing and fighting a lot and i never felt seen as the youngest of four my siblings were much older and it's kind of like the left i was just like there by myself a lot growing up so i didn't have friends when my brother was in prison really because the neighborhood parents didn't want their kids to hang out with me because they thought i was bad like my brother right you know i was in the special needs association yeah so kind of all these things i was just always alone i felt alone you know my parents were there they loved me but it's just the story i told myself and i remember after getting picked last on the dodgeball in a
Starting point is 00:50:35 dodgeball game it was two team captains who were boys and they picked all the guys first and then they picked all the girls second and then i was the last pick and I remember saying myself like I'm never going to be picked last again and I'm going to prove all these kids wrong and the whole world wrong about who I am I just kind of made that decision so every day from that moment forward it was me versus the world I had to be the biggest fastest strongest person that everything I did I had to just protect myself so that no one could hurt me anymore as this kid that's how i felt and as i evolved in high school you know people you know became very valuable in sports i was so you throw yourself into sports and football and this is your outlet to be able to express this anger in kind of a safe contained way yes but usually you know that
Starting point is 00:51:26 that wound that you describe it comes with that inability to be intimate with other people because you've been hurt in that way like you're not going to get too close to anybody and the minute you do get close it gets scary and you break it off absolutely because it's too threatening because you're because it then you have to be vulnerable and that puts you in a position to be hurt and you can't have that because you know what that's like right so you got to cut it off and be in control of that situation to protect yourself yeah exactly so i think a number of those events kind of made me feel well well, here's the, here's the thing about it. These masks that men wear drive us to be, to achieve, to achieve something we want. For me, I wanted to be a great athlete. So I put on this athlete mask and it was hard to take it off at times, but I would achieve
Starting point is 00:52:20 all my athletic goals that I had for myself and be unhappy after I'd achieved them. And I didn't understand why I was unhappy or unfulfilled. And so I would go after bigger goals and bigger dreams. And then I would achieve those thinking they would make me happy. And they wouldn't. And I was like, why am I not happy still? And I just thought this was the way of life. Until about four years ago when I started to just heal from this process.
Starting point is 00:52:44 Like I never told people that I was sexually abused. I never told people about like how much it hurt me growing up feeling these things. I never just like shared it. And when I started to share, I felt like this weight was lifted off my shoulders. What brought you to the realization that that was what you needed to do or what gave you the courage to start doing that? I didn't know it was what you needed to do or what gave you the courage? I didn't know it was what I needed to do. I was going to this workshop, actually, an emotional intelligence leadership workshop.
Starting point is 00:53:10 And we're going through all the things that hold us back in our life from being great. All the different, you know, the triggers, the anger, the resentment, the playing small, all the things that we told ourselves that were holding us back from, you know, achieving the career goals, financial goals, the relationship goals, health goals, anything that was holding us back from being better, we addressed them. And a lot of these things came back from like our conditioning with our parents and childhood and things like that. So it was kind of like group therapy in a sense where they did different exercises and games to to create real
Starting point is 00:53:50 world situations and about three days into this five-day workshop the trainer facilitator was like and we'd gone pretty i mean people were crying people were like snotting like you know it was it was pretty deep like i didn't't know it really was going to be that crazy. But people are really going there to intimate vulnerable places about where they've been hurt, where they were held back, what they told themselves about how they weren't good enough, whatever it may be. And there was a point after three days of this where we addressed our parents, you know, the childhood bullies, like everyone had their own stuff. We all addressed it. The trainer said, okay. After this moment, we're moving forward.
Starting point is 00:54:30 We're letting go of the past. We've addressed everything. So there's no longer need to go into the past. We're going to start focusing on our vision for the future, what we want to create in our life. But is there anything? So if you haven't said anything you need to say yet, now's the time. Otherwise, forever hold your peace.
Starting point is 00:54:50 And I remember going, this is like to a room of like 50 of us. And I remember like it was silent. And I'm kind of like going through in my mind like these images. I was like, okay, my brother going to prison. I talked about that. Like my parents like getting divorced and like fighting all the time. Okay. You know, being bullied bullied being picked on i like talked about these things and i was like at that time i was raped when i was five in the bathroom
Starting point is 00:55:09 by another man that i didn't know it's just like it was just like a vision that went through my mind and i was like why have i never shared this with anyone for 25 years i was just like hmm like i put it off in my head like it wasn't that big a deal. Like, Oh, this happened. And I'm just going to put it to the side. And I remember just saying like, huh, why have I never shared it? And I felt like I need to share this. I was just like, came to me. I was like, I just need to share this. Otherwise I'll probably never share it. So I think if I didn't have that, like three days of experience, like leading up to this, where these like major interruptions, maybe other people being open and vulnerable and sharing things. Like it was really a catalyst
Starting point is 00:55:49 that inspired me to be like, okay, it's safe enough for me to talk about this in this context to these 50 people. And so I literally just stood up, walked to the front of the room. Like I didn't even raise my hand or say like, I have something to say. I just stood up and walked to the front of the room. I couldn't raise my hand or say like I have something to say I just stood up and walked in the front of room. I couldn't look anyone the eyes I was looking down the carpet the whole time and it was for the first time I shared the story when I was five and getting raped in a bathroom and I walked through detail by detail for the first time in 25 years and I remember that I just could not look up. And I was, I told it like it was a movie.
Starting point is 00:56:26 Like I could see it. I could smell it. I could taste the experience, everything. I could put myself right there. And I walked back to my chair. And right when I sat down, it was like, I just erupted with tears. Like I wasn't crying when I was telling the story, but I couldn't look people in the eyes because I was so ashamed. When I sat down, I started just erupting. Like my body was
Starting point is 00:56:49 shaking. I couldn't, I wanted to stop it, but I couldn't. And luckily there was these two women on the side of me who were just like crying with me and holding me. And I was just like, I felt so ashamed, but also so relieved that I shared something that was holding me back emotionally. And I remember running out of the room cause I was just like ashamed of myself. I was just like embarrassed and shamed. And I was like, what are these people going to think of me? You know? And I went outside of this, uh, workshop room out of the, the hotel where the workshop was into the kind of back street where there was a wall in the back street. And I just put my head on the wall, my arm on the wall,
Starting point is 00:57:30 and it was just crying. I couldn't stop crying. And I just wanted to be alone. And one by one, the men from the room came up for me behind. I'll never forget this. It was really moving for me. They came up from behind and like just hugged me and looked me in the eyes and were like you're my hero and it was one of the it was like i never felt so seen in my life when these men who were like i was judging you the last three days just by your image and the way you look and you're this tall white jock and I had no clue like this is something you've been through and it makes me respect you more it makes me trust you more it makes me want to connect with you and support you however I can and these men were just opening up you know some some of the men had been sexually abused as well and opened up for the first time they started sharing with me what their experience
Starting point is 00:58:21 was and they were married with kids and no one knew in their family other guys who didn't have that experience were just like man i'm here for you like thank you for sharing like and it felt such like a release to be able to just share and i started to share after this workshop i started to share one by one with my family which was really challenging to do especially my mom because she's the one who found the I started to share after this workshop, I started to share one by one with my family, which was really challenging to do, especially with my mom, because she's the one who found the babysitter and, you know, she felt totally responsible. It was the son of your babysitter. Yeah. He was like a 17 year old.
Starting point is 00:58:55 Yeah. Like son. I was five. So the babysitter was like a, you know, 50 year old mother who was amazing. And she was right across the, uh, uh my elementary school her house was across the street so i just had to go there after school for a couple hours when my mom was still working until like five or six and and so i started sharing one by one with my family which was really challenging because i was afraid they were gonna i don't know not love me or not accept me or whatever
Starting point is 00:59:22 and i remember talking to like a relationship counselor actually about, you know, how do I even talk to my family about this? I had no clue. How do you say something to your family or people you're close to? And so that's a whole nother process of how I was able to start the conversations. But then I did it with them and I was like, Oh wow, I have, they have deeper love for me. They had my brother, my sisters, they started opening up about things I'd never heard about them. They were like, so they felt so much more connected to me. It was amazing. Whatever relationship has been like since then, then I started sharing with like close friends one by
Starting point is 01:00:03 one. And it was terrifying like i was terrified every time i did with my family then it's close friends but one by one the more i shared it the less i like teared up about it the less i was embarrassed about it the less i you know felt like it had control over me it was like now i was owning the story as opposed to the story owning me and it didn't have power over me anymore after like months and months of talking about it and then i people were like you need to share this on your podcast and i was like no fucking way there's like no way that i want the world to know this about me because i was still terrified and then the more i said that i was like hmm the story must still own me if I'm not willing to reveal myself to
Starting point is 01:00:45 everyone but everything I've been through yeah you're still afraid and your ego is in the way and what are people gonna think about me are they gonna follow me still they're gonna you know or they're gonna think it's some marketing thing I'm doing or whatever like I was just scared and I remember it took me about six months to to finally agree to doing it and I you know I recorded it with Jonathan Fields and he kind of interviewed me to go through the process and I was pretty scared you know during it I was very kind of nervous still and now I can talk about it where it doesn't own me but what I realized is when I published this podcast about being sexually abused and kind of the whole process and what was available on the other side for me was freedom, was intimacy, was, uh, not feeling
Starting point is 01:01:32 afraid anymore of what people thought about me, not feeling like people are judging me anymore because I've put everything out there and a deeper sense of inner peace. Like I just felt at peace in my heart. Whereas I always felt angry and passive aggressive when I had these triggers. And so what I realized is like when I post this, I had hundreds of emails from men and women. But so many men that opened up to me for the first time being sexually abused. Or just going through some challenge in their life where they felt like wow if you could do this and share about your thing then maybe i can share about my thing with my sister or my parents or my wife or whatever it may be and it was just like man i thought i was like the only one who wasn't talking about this but i guess everyone isn't talking about like the
Starting point is 01:02:20 things they're most ashamed of or what they're afraid of. And I just said, huh, there's something here. It was like the most downloaded episode. It was the most shared. It was the most meaningful, the most impactful. And I was like, this is the topic. Not necessarily around sexual abuse, but why do men wear different masks that hold them back? Why do men cause a lot of resentment and anger and conflict in relationships with business, friends, family, intimate partners? Why do we do this as men? Not all men, but why in general do
Starting point is 01:02:52 some men do this? And I realized that, you know, a lot of this conditioning over time from your parents saying like, you know, don't cry. Don't be a cry baby. Be a man, be this, your coaches, be a man, get back up. Don't show pain from baby. Be a man. Be this. You're coaches. Be a man. Get back up. Don't show pain from, you know, the confusion of relationships where women want a bad guy and they're, you know, the bad guys are rewarded in high school to then they want a sensitive person, but then they want you to be strong. They want you to show you. So it's like constantly conflicting.
Starting point is 01:03:21 And I think, yes, we all have our own responsibilities to be the best person we can be. But when society, culture, family, friends, girlfriends, teammates are starting to have this pressure constantly to feel accepted, we need to be a certain way. To fit in, we have to fit in to what they want us to be, not who we truly are. And being open, honest, and vulnerable is completely at odds with that. And our whole lives. And, you know, look, this is applicable to women, too. Absolutely. But I think it's a little bit more acute with men because of the way we're sort of socially conditioned and programmed as we grow into these gender roles.
Starting point is 01:04:05 and programmed as we, as we grow into these gender roles. But the idea that you're going to be honest and open about your flaws and your failures and, and be vulnerable and expose yourself in that way runs contrary to everything we were taught growing up. And, you know, I wasn't sexually abused, but I have my version. We've talked about this. I have my version of this through alcoholism and addiction recovery. And, and one of the most downloaded episodes I ever did was when I talked about relapsing after I'd had a lot of time. And after I had completed writing, finding ultra and before it had come out. And I was deeply ashamed of that because I was like,
Starting point is 01:04:37 Oh my God, I wrote this book about addiction recovery, you know, and my journey to wholeness. And here I am still this perfection incredibly flawed human being yeah what does that mean and what are people going to think and i held on to that for a long time i mean first of all just being an alcoholic in general like my journey to being able to own that came through sobriety and recovery and rehab and you know everything that i
Starting point is 01:05:02 put into creating a foundation of sobriety where that story doesn't control me anymore like i own it and i'm totally comfortable talking about it and i've had that same experience where when you can when people know when you're comfortable about it and they're like they're not used to that and they're like oh wow like it's not so bad like maybe i can share that thing that i'm scared about or be a little bit more vulnerable than I have been. But there's always more layers, you know? And so like when I relapsed, I was like, well, I own that, but like, this is still owning me. Right. And I had to do the same thing and share it on my podcast. It was terrifying, you know, but that was the thing that, you know, people really connected
Starting point is 01:05:38 with that and they didn't have to be an alcoholic or an addict, but just the fact that like, I was willing to be that honest, I think gives people, it connects, it connects you to people. And like, you know, Brene Brown talks about this beautifully. And I know you just interviewed her and like, she's my hero. I think she's amazing. And you know, if you do anything in the wake of this podcast, other than read Lewis's book, please explore the work of Brene Brown because she's really, you know, dug into the research on this. And the truth is we're terrified of being vulnerable because we equate it with weakness. But the truth is that is your strength. And if you can muster the courage to be vulnerable and to like own your path, and it's a journey to getting to there, but when you can
Starting point is 01:06:21 get to that place where it doesn't control you anymore, it is incredibly empowering. And it's the thing that, that is going to connect you with other human beings and like infuse your life with meaning and purpose and direction. It's a beautiful process and it's terrifying. Like I'm not going to lie to you, it's terrifying. So, so, uh, so I understand like why we walk around with these masks on. The enemy we know is much better than the mysterious enemy that we don't. Right. And it's stories like yours where you can lead by example and really demonstrate this that provides that opening that can shift people's know, people's perspective on these issues and give them permission to like own their own truth. Yeah. And that's what I realized when I, when I started sharing more years ago, four years ago, people told me that they had permission to
Starting point is 01:07:15 start opening up and the release they had after sharing, it was like they had the weight off their shoulders. Now they could finally step into who they're being. And I feel like if we have a mask on, if we're holding something back, we are never able to get into full flow in our lives. We may be 70, 80%, but until we're in full flow, which means being our authentic self, we can never have the highest impact or achieve the greatest results in our life. We're a little bit tight. We're a little bit clenched and you can't, you know, be an athlete. If you're clenched and you can't be an athlete of life, if you're closed off. So I realized like, wow, so many men are hurting and in the American society and suffering silently
Starting point is 01:07:57 suffering, you know, quote Henry David Thoreau, like exactly. Cause it's not, it's not okay. So it's okay to talk about it. Right. You can't talk about it with your boys you can't talk about with girls you can't talk about your wife because when you do they tell you you know in general that say well i need you to be strong right now because i'm all over the place and so it's like there might have been one time you were told like no you can't i need to be strong for me right now where the man thought okay i got to be strong all the time then you know maybe and you know i love brené brown i love oprah i love the people that are talking about vulnerability because it's transformed a lot of women's lives who feel like they can share but a lot of men aren't listening to brené brown right who are unless they're like you know yoga
Starting point is 01:08:43 socially conscious men but the guys that I grew up with in general they most likely wouldn't be caught dead yeah the barbecue and NFL just the Midwestern like whatever like yeah they're not like let's see what Brene has to say they'll never watch that tech talk and I remember when I started getting into her work four years ago and learning more about this and learning about vulnerability and things, I was like, wow, this is so powerful. And yet not many guys are talking about it. And so I just felt like I had a responsibility. You could be a cipher for that.
Starting point is 01:09:12 I felt like I had a responsibility. Like I look like the typical jock. I'm a tall white man, you know, and I've had some business success. I've had some other success in my life as an athlete. So if I could be a Trojan horse or a catalyst to get people in, to get men in, to be like, hey, you want to live a great life? Get open up. If you want to cheat, you want to make a lot of money, you want to get the girl, you want
Starting point is 01:09:34 to be a great athlete, like, okay, you can do that. And you don't have to suffer. You don't have to constantly live in this prison inside of your mind and constantly come from an aggressive place or win-lose place, you know, I need me to be right all the time. Like that creates so much dis-ease in our hearts. And when we can come from a place of how can I win and how can you win and everyone around me win, like it just feels better. When we come from a place of, you know, maybe I'm not right here. Let's just hear it out. Let's have a discussion and see what we come up with together.
Starting point is 01:10:08 You're not isolating yourself by being the only winner and the only person who's right. You're not being on an island by yourself in that place. Now you're connecting to a larger community of people and you're supporting humanity as opposed to creating the conflict that we're seeing so much in the world today. as opposed to creating the conflict that we're seeing so much in the world today. I think as a starting place, the individual has to at least be in a place where they're willing to kind of wrestle with their demons a little bit. I mean, I'm just thinking, you know, like you're saying, oh, the typical guy. All right. Like, let's conjure the stereotype.
Starting point is 01:10:39 Like often that guy's so disconnected from his emotional body because of that programming and because of the coaches or the parent whatever it is that they're not even aware that they're repressing their emotions because that disconnection is so complete so strong so how do you even like mask is fused to their faces yeah like there's no distinction between the mask and the person like my my my wife there's there's one particular type of mask that my wife calls the super dupers. Like when you meet, you know, you meet, I'm sure in your business circles, you meet guys like this all the time. They're like, when you meet them and they give you that super firm handshake and they look at you in the eye and you're like, how are you doing? I'm super duper.
Starting point is 01:11:20 I'm super. How are you doing? You know, and you're like it's bullshit you know like a guy's not this guy's not even in the universe of of beginning to be honest with me about however he's feeling maybe that's not the right context or maybe he would be you know more open in a different setting but in general it's like a guy who's walking around like that all the time he's just i mean the mask is so obvious yeah right and it's such a barrier because you're like all right well am i really gonna have a meaningful conversation with this guy probably
Starting point is 01:11:49 not like i'll just go through the niceties and like move on right exactly yeah yeah you know i just feel like now's the time with more and more conflict in the politics with more and more conflict with the racial issues that are happening happening just seems like everyone is fighting at least and now with public social media it's just so prominent you see it so much but I feel like there's got to be an interruption and the only way to take the mask off is with an interruption whether it be you know a major breakup in your life a divorce a near-death experience someone in your life near-death experience a little pain in their direction you gotta get some type of because you're so people are so
Starting point is 01:12:29 attached to their identity yeah you're asking them to let go of essentially like who they are like that's a huge app for me the reason why it happened is because I had a major interruption I was in this five-day workshop where it took three days for me to finally like have a mirror in front of my face and be like oh i have an ego i didn't think i had an ego i thought i was just like this good guy or i wasn't angry but i was always angry inside and it took a deep interruption where this facilitator just called me out of my bullshit like over and over in front of everyone he was like why are you so angry lewis he just kept saying why are you so angry and i was like i'm a fun loving like i hug people all the time i'm always happy i was like what do you mean angry
Starting point is 01:13:13 he's like you're really angry it's like all over your face it's all over your energy and i was just like fuck you i was like you don't know me you know i was like you know what i mean you respond with anger exactly to defend your non-angerness but it's just like the more and more feedback i got i was like i started to open up i started to recognize uh the the masks i was wearing the the things that were holding me back and i needed that interruption it took me 30 years to have an interruption and i think I hear this from other friends who have near death experiences or other things, or it's like, that's their wake up call. So it's hard because I don't want anyone to have a near death experience or have to go to a workshop
Starting point is 01:13:54 or any of these things to have that interruption. That's why I think it's so important for the women in the lives of men who have these masks to support as a loving interruption by not making men wrong for wearing it. Because I think in a lot of relationships, I hear men saying, my girlfriend, my wife makes me wrong for who I am. And it's constantly nagging me these things. So I think women can play a part in being a loving interruption by coming from a place of love and understanding by first being aware aware, like why is he wearing this
Starting point is 01:14:25 mask as opposed to just making him wrong for who he is? Let me look deeper. And this is hard to do when you're frustrated with your man for him being a certain way after years. I get it. It's really hard to do as a woman to, to kind of step into this loving awareness of understanding. But I think if you want to see a transformation in the man in your, in your, uh, your life, your father, your brother, your husband, boyfriend, sons. There's a lot of mothers out there who talked to me about their sons, how they're disconnected. It's like, try to come from a place of why first that they might be doing that. That's why we try to create the, uh, the information on why someone might be wearing that mask and then some tools
Starting point is 01:15:04 and resources on how to get them to take off the mask for a moment. So you can have a intimate conversation with them. The best way to do that, that I've found is through acknowledgement, acknowledging the, your son, your husband, the boyfriend, your dad, for the good they are doing focus on those good moments in the life where they do show a tender side or they, they, they are thoughtful or they are open and just say, I really appreciate how you did that. You know,
Starting point is 01:15:28 the other day with so-and-so was so beautiful to see. And it just made me feel so much more connected to you. And maybe when I have incredible sex with you, whatever it is, you got to say to like, get them excited and encourage that as opposed to encouraging the mass or making the mask wrong. Because when you make the mask wrong, you're probably going to push the man away or make them want to keep the mask on tighter to protect themselves.
Starting point is 01:15:52 So just be aware of that. As you're saying that, I'm sort of, you know, reflecting back on my own path with this and the role that Julie played. And she was always like she could tell I was suffering, like being a lawyer, like wearing a certain mask and trying to make it work, even though I was at odds with this person that she could always see this better version of me. But I was too afraid to step in that direction and too afraid to let go of the mask I was wearing. And what did she do? Well, she just, she was like, I believe in you and like, you're more than this. And you know, I, I have a vision for you. Like just, you need to trust your instinct, like you're suffering, like, let me help you. Or, and then at other times, like just giving me space, like,, she was, you know, she went through, like, look, here's what you need to do.
Starting point is 01:16:49 And then that didn't work. You know what I mean? Because it's like, I don't want to hear somebody telling me what I should do. Don't judge me. But she just let go. And, you know, ultimately, she got to a place of, like, look, I love you unconditionally. Like, you want to keep living that way? I still want to be married to you and I love you and we'll have a great life um i think there's you know you have more potential to do things in other areas
Starting point is 01:17:10 but you know this is your life like she's like i'm releasing you to your life like i am releasing you like i'm sorry for vibing you or for trying to you know feeling like I wanted you to be different than you are. Like, and it wasn't like a, it wasn't like a, uh, uh, like a strategy. Like she really meant it. Like I could tell that it was real. Like she wasn't just saying it, you know, like she was, she felt that in her heart. And, and I noticed that shift. And I think that is what, like you talked about, like suddenly seeing yourself in the mirror, like that is what allowed me to actually see myself as I was in the mirror because I had to then take responsibility for myself, not to please somebody else or my partner. Right. And I think that was a huge catalyst and my growth, but you know, these things are hard and, and, you know, pain, you know, it's like the, that pain moment, like if you, if that happens to you that's a gift you know as maybe as terrible
Starting point is 01:18:07 as the circumstances may be um there's a there's a divinity in that if you can grab onto that and understand that it's a it's a moment that you can grab onto and harness to begin this journey that that you've experienced and it can be a beautiful thing but you know these masks come in many forms and you kind of you know you outline the book and break them down you have like nine different masks the joker mask and the stoic mask and the invincible mask the aggressive mask the athlete mask the sexual mask the know-it-all mask the alpha mask i mean just by their titles you can kind of imagine how these these things down. But they're all powerful. And I don't think anybody falls.
Starting point is 01:18:48 I mean, certainly there's a spectrum and you kind of, okay, the alpha mask. I kind of know who that guy is. But I think most men are a hybrid of a number of these. And I think what you did well in the book was that you entered this as a learning experience for yourself. It's not like, hey, this is, this is the way that it is. And this is what you need to do. It's like, I struggled with this. And in each chapter, when you're kind of breaking down these various masks,
Starting point is 01:19:13 you're like, this is what I, this is how I wore this mask. Or here's an example of like where I kind of went awry because of some example, something that happened in your life. And I think it allows people to kind of connect with that. Yeah. that yeah i mean pretty much in every chapter i talk about all my faults how i've worn every mask ability how i've worn every mask how it supported me in my life and how it didn't support me so again i'm not trying to come from a place of like you're a wrong man if you wear a mask or you're bad it's not about right and wrong good and bad it's about what's effective and what's working and what's not working and are
Starting point is 01:19:51 you suffering inside by wearing this mask is something holding you back from living a a fuller richer life and your relationships your health your spiritual health everything and if something is holding you back let's address it it. Let's look at it. For instance, the material mask, for me, saved my life in a sense because when I was broke on my sister's couch, I fixated on making as much money as I could so I could get off the couch.
Starting point is 01:20:17 So I said, I'm going to become a master at making money. I no longer want to feel broke. I want to feel like I have abundance in my life financially. So I spent the next year and a half, two years only thinking about money. I no longer want to feel broke. I want to feel like I have abundance in my life financially. So I spent the next year and a half, two years only thinking about money and I gained 60 pounds and I had no intimate relationships, but it got me to make, get to make a lot of money. So it's like, okay, it supported me in some ways to getting the goal that I had in mind, but it left me feeling so unfulfilled in the rest of my life. So it's like, how can we balance this and be aware and take it off in certain times? The scary, yeah, no, I get that. And I think the thing that, that happens, I think is that guys get in their lane, right? And if you, you take a successful guy, maybe he's wearing the material
Starting point is 01:21:01 mask, maybe he's wearing the athlete mask, whatever it is. He's excelled in his life. And if you were to ask that person, they will tell you the reason that they excelled is because of the mask. And now you're proposing that they let go of that. And that means that they'll no longer be able to do the thing that they do. Right? Yeah. And that's the fear. And that's the unknown.
Starting point is 01:21:24 So it's a leap of faith and as somebody who's taken that leap yourself and i have as well we can both say like look the water's warm on the other side it's gonna be okay like that's an illusion that attachment to that identity yeah and that strategy and that mask is although you think it's serving you it actually isn't but you're gonna have to trust me it's hard and here's the thing you think it's serving you, it actually isn't, but you're going to have to trust me. It's hard. And here's the thing, you know, it's like, let's use the material mass for an example. Like I'm all about having nice, nice things, like living in a nice place, flying first
Starting point is 01:21:57 class. Like I'm all about convenience and all these things. But I think if I was posting about all my material possessions every single day on social media, talking about how much money I had constantly, I would attract a certain crowd. And I would attract people close to me who probably were thinking about the same things, were focused on the money. So I would ask myself, like, if I lost it all, would those friends still be around? Did I make an impact in their life or did I have meaningful connections with them beyond the money? Or was that the thing that attracted them to me as well? So I think you just need to ask yourself, like, again, if you're
Starting point is 01:22:35 an athlete and then you get injured, are your friends going to stick around? Is your entourage going to stick around if you're no longer playing in the game, whatever sports you're playing and you no longer have the money? Did you make an impact in people's lives? Did you build meaningful, intimate relationships? If you didn't, those people probably aren't going to stick around. But don't allow your net worth to reflect your self-worth. And the same thing with your athletic capabilities and everything else. Figure out a way to develop your self-worth first and build meaningful value in other people's lives. And if you make a lot of money, cool. But at least you have the foundation first of self-worth.
Starting point is 01:23:14 Yeah. The tricky thing is, is like most rich dudes are, that's what their self-worth is wrapped up in. It's focused on their bank account. Like if their bank account goes down, it's like they have a heart attack and it doesn't matter that it's not solving the happiness equation because there's always one more thing to get because the other guy has it and you don't and you can you'll chase i mean look you lived that life right you were well your life we live in hollywood you know it's like those guys are all around i know i look i know tons of millionaires and you know billionaire type guys that are not happy people you know, look, I know tons of millionaires and, you know, billionaire type guys that
Starting point is 01:23:45 are not happy people, you know, but they still, they're on that treadmill, you know, and it's going to take, you know, something pretty severe in their life to get them off of that and reevaluate. Who's the guy who lives up here? The famous director who lived in a massive mansion. He actually directed all the Jim Carrey movies. Tom Shadiac. Yeah, yeah. The longer hair. now he lives in like a trailer park or something yeah he moved to boulder for a while he's he's back i've been trying to get him on the phone yeah he's amazing
Starting point is 01:24:12 yeah but he yeah he made an amazing uh documentary it's called i am not i think it's called i am not that or something like that i forget the name david do you know that documentary i'm talking about i forget the name of it something like that know that documentary I'm talking about? I forget the name of it. Something like that. But basically, yeah, one of the biggest directors in Hollywood had everything. Huge mansions. Directing giant, you know, comedies with all the big movie stars, Jim Carrey, etc. And just was like, dude, it's not, you know. Did it bring him happiness? No, not at all.
Starting point is 01:24:38 And he just basically quit being a director, sold all his belongings, moved into a trailer in Malibu. A nice trailer. Yeah. It wasn't like. I know. Like there's a little area in Malibu where it's like technically it's a trailer park, but these are like amazing trailers. Like a million dollar trailer. They're still like super nice.
Starting point is 01:24:58 Right at Paradise Cove. So I think he moved in there. But it's not huge. It's like the size of this. No, they're like, yeah, they're small. But they're cool. You know, it's not like. He's a little bit of this. No, they're like, yeah, they're small. But they're cool. You know, it's not like. He's a little bit nice still.
Starting point is 01:25:06 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But anyway, but it's an incredible documentary where he kind of, you know, talks about all these things. Yeah, I want to watch that. Yeah, it's not true. I mean, look, we know it intellectually. Like, everybody knows, oh, money doesn't buy you happiness. But it's like, but actually believing that, like, we sort of go, yeah, yeah, yeah. But like, if I just get the Tesla. It. Yeah, but like if I just get the test
Starting point is 01:25:25 It buys you convenience get the buys you convenience and buys you like a more comfortable life It buys you these other things that you know Lack of money can't get you But it doesn't buy you inner peace and I think that's the thing as men we struggle with is finding this sense of like inner peace and inner fulfillment and If we're constantly chasing something, thinking that it's going to give us inner peace without addressing the things that are holding that peace back from us, that's where we get into trouble. So it's how can we address those things
Starting point is 01:25:55 now and then go make billions of dollars and you're going to be happier. You got to be willing to go on that journey of self-discovery and you're going to have to get used to the idea of being open and vulnerable you know like it and a lot of these things date back to these childhood wounds you know i interviewed this guy on the podcast gabor mate who's an expert in addiction and his whole thing is you know so many addicts like it's rooted in these childhood traumas and and even when you look back on your life and you're like well i wasn't abused and you know my parents weren't alcoholics but there's some kind of there's psychic damage there's emotional trauma there left unresolved or left unaddressed and unexamined is toxic in your life and it's manifesting in these behavior patterns and these these sort of mentalities that are you know that
Starting point is 01:26:43 get firmer and firmer as we age and and and form the very basis of ourities that are, you know, that get firmer and firmer as we age and form the very basis of our identity that ultimately are leading us astray from the thing that we seek most, which is purpose and meaning and satisfaction and, you know, and to love and to be loved, right? And we're all chasing it in the wrong directions. And it's confusing because as men, I think it's in certain respects, and i'm interested because you're so much younger than me and what you think about this like you know the great generation the world war ii veterans like look this you be this is what you do as a man like it was pretty clear-cut there wasn't a lot there was nobody was writing books
Starting point is 01:27:19 the mask of masculinity you know what i mean and And then Vietnam happened and we have the 60s and there's an openness and it's the flower generation. And then we have Gen X and all the angst that gets built into that. Gen Y, now we have the millennials. And so the millennials are this generation of people who are, you know, by their very nature, not to be overly stereotypical, but more in touch with their emotions. I'm talking about men as much as women. Uh, it's a, it's a permissive generation in which, you know, it's okay for dude friends to like share intimate details of their life in a way that like perhaps was not okay in my generation and generations that preceded me. Um, but also I would imagine there's also that that conflicting expectation that you know the
Starting point is 01:28:07 dude still has to be strong and he's still you know he's gotta be the gentleman and he has to be the warrior and he has to be uh the super dad who's going to all the things at the school but he's also got to be the provider who's making sure that he's bringing home the money you know and and he's got to be sensitive and so there it's like and calm and like yeah like there's all of these intelligent yeah and and like it's not this is not a pity party for men like i think it's much harder for women all of these things apply to them yes they've got to be sexy all the time yeah exactly you know cook food and yeah these conflicting gender expectations that create like a sense of vertigo because you you can't be all of those things all the time how does that balance out and
Starting point is 01:28:50 like what is the path forward in terms of like being self-actualized and authentic to who you are yeah so that's the equation right what's the solution lewis come on you wrote the book the solution is to first be aware of the mask that you're wearing. First be aware is to, okay, and be aware and say, why am I doing this? Why? And start to journal. Like, what are the things that I still hold on to? What are the things that I don't like talking about?
Starting point is 01:29:19 What are the things that I get triggered around? And start to have it written down on a piece of paper in your journal and be aware of it. Be like, okay, here are some things. It's good to know. It's good to be aware. And the next thing is like saying, okay, what's the next step for me? How am I going to be able to move past this? Who do I need to talk to about this?
Starting point is 01:29:38 Would it be my guy friend, girlfriend, wife, parents, whatever it is. Who do I need to address and clear things with so that these things don't own me anymore but i'm in control of them i think that's a great first step and it's an ongoing process listen i wrote the book on this but it's like i still wear these masks you know it's not like i'm like this perfect actualized aware sensitive loving vulnerable man 24 7 i get triggered like the best of them. That's why I have daily practices of meditation, which I know you do, of gratitude, of looking into people's eyes and connecting with them. I also am constantly in appreciation. I'm always saying how much I appreciate people throughout my day, throughout my experiences.
Starting point is 01:30:20 Coming from a place of gratitude allows me to just be focused on the little small things that I'm appreciating as opposed to fixating on things I'm ungrateful for or the things that trigger me or the things that make me mad or aggressive. So it's those little daily practices that really guide me and also surrounding myself with a good team that I say, hey, listen, give me feedback. myself with a good team that I say, Hey, listen, give me feedback. If I'm being aggressive, if I'm being this, if I'm being whatever, give me feedback in a loving way. Don't get mad at me. Cause that's going to make me triggered more, but just let me know in a loving way. Like, Hey, I feel like you're disconnected from us right now. And so I have a really good team. You know, I would say my personal life team and also my business team, they're all grounded people who give me great feedback. I think it's, you know, setting yourself up the best way you can, because we're going to go through a lot of challenges for the rest of our life. Especially
Starting point is 01:31:14 if you're up to a big game in life, you're going to go through challenges and adversity. So just try to set yourself up to win and don't beat yourself up so much for having these things. Like don't put yourself down more now that you're aware of these things. Just be like, okay, how can I be at peace with this? How can I let it go and be aware of it? So next time it comes up, I see the mask on and I take it off quicker and that should be our goal. Yeah. I think that's pretty good practical advice. You know, I think it's important as a first step if you're suffering or you have some level of self-awareness of some dissonance within you or some behavior pattern that you know is unhealthy, but you're not sure what's behind it. I think the first thing is to find somebody that you trust to speak to.
Starting point is 01:32:01 Yeah. trust to speak to yeah and and and to find find somebody who you can confide in openly and honestly and like tell like just be as brutally honest and open as you possibly can you feel so much better when you talk you've got to release that gotta share yeah and it's that's tough if you've never done that because it requires you to trust somebody you know and i and i honestly don't think and i'm sure you've done you've done a lot of like therapy or recovery stuff, I'm assuming, but I don't think we can heal until we start to share. Instead, we start to verbalize. You're only as sick as your secrets. That's the thing, man.
Starting point is 01:32:34 Yeah. And so you've got to find that. And I think it's, I think journaling is super important and there's all kinds of exercises that I've, that I've, you know, done over the years. One thing that's really powerful is to kind of inventory certain situations and interactions you have. So let's say your anger flares up or you end up in a fight with your girlfriend or boyfriend or something happens at work, like to actually do an honest and open inventory of what exactly happened and try to see and own your part in that like
Starting point is 01:33:06 because everybody kind of comes out of those situations blaming the other person or being a victim or like this they did that and they did this but like let's get really honest about like what your part in that was and the more you get into the habit of doing that patterns start to emerge and you start to go oh i see like when this happens like i always get anger angry or this is how i react like why am i doing that and that can like catalyze more of a deeper inquiry into like what's behind that and then you can begin to unpack that and that i think that's you know another first step and and starting to resolve and heal it you know to find somebody you trust so i mean there's a million you know modalities yeah it's just like it's not it's like there's no one there's no right way or one way it's like the what's the
Starting point is 01:33:52 way that you're gonna do you know what i mean is it going to be group therapy is it seeing a therapist is it just like going on a bike ride with your best friend and finally mustering the courage to tell him what's going on or her or whoever, you know, that, you know, that, that matters less than simply getting into the mindset and, and, uh, the behavior of actually the doing of it. Right. You know, it's the same thing with like, when you hear about these stories of men or women coming out of the closet, it's like they held onto this tension and this resentment and this anger for their whole life. And then they finally open up about it. And it's like they held on to this tension and this resentment and this anger for their whole life and then they finally open up about it and it's like you can literally see them look younger
Starting point is 01:34:30 feel lighter you know feel happier about and more fulfilled because they're finally stepping into who they've always been they're bringing their their their identity into alignment with you know their outward self in alignment with their inward self. So it's like, we all have something that we might be holding back from or not be willing to share fully. But I believe when we start to fully share that thing that we, that, you know, it's either who we are or the things we've been through that we're scared to share. That's when we can fully step into a lighter, more fulfilled life.
Starting point is 01:35:04 Yeah. When I was in rehab, uh, part, one one of the how long were you in rehab for a hundred days dude wow like alone in a facility or with like a group of people well it was it was in a facility wow different phases well there was family week that was super fun where they come up and they confront you with all the bullshit that you must be miserable it was it was super fun where they come up and they confront you with all the bullshit it was it was super intense but after i was there like maybe 60 or 70 days then i kind of moved out of the like dorm into like a house that was a couple blocks away like and i had a little bit more freedom but no i was essentially like my best thinking got me confined to a mental institution and I stayed there for a hundred days. But like, you know, I was in bad shape when I arrived there.
Starting point is 01:35:53 I thought I'll be here for a couple of weeks. You know, I got to get back to my job, man. You know, like I got a big, important life waiting out here. Like, yeah, I got this problem, but like I got to spin dry because you don't understand. Like you don't understand my responsibility, you know? And they know and they're like yeah yeah yeah and and it was terrifying and i was fully aware that like you know look this was not the plan for my life like you know i was somebody who had a lot of promise and potential as a young person that i squandered and now here i was you know in this situation that i was deeply ashamed about uh and that's a whole other you know, in this situation that I was deeply ashamed about. Uh, and that's a whole other,
Starting point is 01:36:26 you know, that's a two hour podcast in and of itself. But my point is that I realized the gravity of the situation and I knew that I needed to take it seriously and give myself over to it completely. If I really wanted to heal and resolve, you know, what got me there in the first place. completely if I really wanted to heal and resolve, you know, what got me there in the first place. And one of the first things that they had us do was write down 10 instances of, of your drinking and using, like, what was your intention going into, like, let's say, my intention was I'm going to go and meet a couple of friends and have a couple of drinks. And then write what happened. Uh, I woke up in vegas like in a naked in a hotel room and didn't know where my wallet was or whatever and then how that impacted other people like how did this create harm to the people in your world and then how did that harm yourself
Starting point is 01:37:17 and 10 instances of that and i was like okay i'm gonna do that super honestly like it was the first time that i was like honest with anybody about like how i was actually living and i had to read this out loud in front of the whole group of like 40 people that were in this program and i had that cathartic experience but also the counselors were like yeah i think they're like i know you want to get out of here in like 28 days but like yeah like you you need to stick around, dude. Like this is pretty, you know, like you're, you're pretty far down the line. Like we think you should hang out for a while. Yeah. And I was like, okay, whatever you say, man. And so that's why I ended up staying. Until he's full surrender. Yeah. I surrendered because then I tried to get sober my way a million times, like using myself well, and without taking my mask off, like I'm going to,
Starting point is 01:38:01 I'm just going to like, will it will myself into fixing this problem because that's how i've solved every other problem in my life and that just dug the hole deeper and deeper and deeper until i was so broken that was my pain moment my divine moment and i was like i give up like you whatever you say i'm doing what you you know i am here 110 percent yeah and i'm not gonna fight you i'm not gonna ask questions or intellectualize what you're telling me to do i'm just gonna do it trust the process yeah i going to ask questions or intellectualize what you're telling me to do. I'm just going to do it. Trust the process. I had to because I had tried everything else.
Starting point is 01:38:28 I had no other options other than to just completely surrender to this thing. And that's what saved my life. So the point being that as scary as it is to surrender, especially for a guy, because we equate it with giving up, relinquishing our power. How dare you? I'm not going to relinquish. I'm not giving up my power. I was surrendering. Are you kidding me? But that is where you find the strength. It is in that willingness to be vulnerable that your greatest strength lies. And you know, that is a, I don't wish my experience on anybody, but the lesson of that I think is what you're trying to convey in this book. And,
Starting point is 01:39:03 and it is powerful and it's something that, you know, I think men all over the world are struggling with silently. Yeah. So, I commend you on the book. Thanks, brother. Good job. I wanted to, before we wrap it up, though, I know you went on this silent meditation retreat not too long ago, right? Not silent. I wasn't silent.
Starting point is 01:39:19 But did you go to India? Where did you go? I went to India. To an ashram? It was called One World Academy. It was powerful. I went for two weeks. Didn called One World Academy. It was powerful. I went for two weeks. Didn't leave the premises of this place.
Starting point is 01:39:29 And the first, the second or third day, I got really sick from eating something in another city. And so for like three days, I was having like a literal spiritual journey of like purging all these things. You know, like the bad chicken I ate or something. But I had a few days of meditation before that. And then I went through, I was like just in my bed, throwing up and going to the bathroom constantly for another couple of days. And then I stayed for an extra week to do, to become a meditation instructor. And both workshops were so powerful.
Starting point is 01:39:59 Just learning again, how to deepen this practice of like forgiveness and inner peace and to remove suffering because i felt like i still hadn't fully had all the tools that i needed to like let go of the mask and be at peace and last year really helped strengthen my ability to be vulnerable and be at peace and not suffer as much not feel so guilty or shameful about things so meditation has been a huge plus for me i mean i've been doing it for years but and not suffer as much, not feel so guilty or shameful about things. So meditation has been a huge plus for me. I mean, I've been doing it for years, but this style that I learned and just being in an intensive environment for two weeks
Starting point is 01:40:34 where I was eating vegan and on the ocean and just disconnected from everything was another powerful experience for me. Where in India was it? It was near Chennai. Oh, yeah. Near Chennai on the bay of bengal all right it's amazing man it's great and and what was the technique some of the craziest they created their own type of technique where they have science everything is backed by science
Starting point is 01:40:54 and like the amount of breathing you do how you breathe uh if there's humming involved like how it's there's everything has a purpose it's not just like okay we're just gonna breathe for 10 counts it's like no why because this is what happens with the brain and the body when we do these things so it was all backed by science which i liked and there was zero religious talk about anything there wasn't any connection to god god so was there a guru there's no guru oh wow you went all the way to india and you didn't you didn't sit at the feet of a guru there was teeth there was there was multiple teachers uh-huh so there was like multiple trainers you know meditation they lived as monks so i remember because i'm a pretty like affectionate guy i've kind of hug everyone and i try to like put my
Starting point is 01:41:39 arms out to hug like one of the female teachers and they were like no no no i was like oh sorry so i had a fun like teasing them the whole time like acting like i was gonna touch them but it was more playful um but it was profound man we went to some crazy places in our mind like some they use different techniques they use music they use you know it was dark we would do it in the middle of the night they would wake us up and it'd be like 2 a.m. And we'd kind of be already be sleepy. And they would put us in these like meditative states and have us do different exercises and prompts to really try to see how we can eliminate suffering. And there's no way to fully eliminate suffering, but we can be aware of it when it happens
Starting point is 01:42:21 and then move into a beautiful state quickly. And so that's what they taught us how to do is to be, there's only two states we can live in, a suffering state or a beautiful state. And the goal is to always be in a beautiful state when possible, a beautiful state of being. And, uh, you know, just reconfirming these masks. We live in a suffering state when we're wearing a mask as opposed to living in flow which is a beautiful loving state yeah and that's a practice you've kept up since you got back for the first like four months i was every day yeah i do about 15 minutes just 15 minutes in the morning i can do it anytime during the day but it's it's not like tm where you're supposed
Starting point is 01:43:01 to do it two times a day or whatever it's just there's i learned multiple meditations multiple meditations to help people when as a as an instructor when they're going through different things so are you actively teaching people now i haven't been teaching anyone i've been teaching like you know my girlfriend and stuff like that but i would think i would need a lot more practice for me to feel comfortable like facilitating larger groups i'm sure i could kind of pull it off and get away with it but i would want to train some more but i just more wanted to know the deeper side of teaching others in order to teach myself right that's why i wanted to do the instructor training and uh i'll tell you what that time i've never been on like drugs
Starting point is 01:43:41 or medication or anything but i felt like I was able to, and I always felt like I had a very powerful mind. Like I could see visions and do things with my mind and manifest them in my body in the real world. But man, they just took me to a whole nother level of what was possible in terms of my thinking and thinking so much bigger and expansive than I've ever thought before. and thinking so much bigger and expansive than i've ever thought before so for me i really appreciate that level of expansiveness and consciousness in my mind and then i want to go back and do more because i feel like i was just getting started that's pretty cool man that's
Starting point is 01:44:16 powerful it's unbelievable i mean oneworldacademy.com how did you find like how did you select this place i found it a friend of mine um a good buddy of mine had done and went there for a few days and did it. And it was like, it's life changing. And this guy's got like super ADD all over the place. And I saw him calmer. And he was like, you got to go check this place out. He was like, Tony Robbins went there a few years ago. And he, there's a video of Tony Robbins talking about it actually.
Starting point is 01:44:49 And there's a video of Tony Robbins talking about it, actually, where for 30, 40 years, Tony Robbins always talked about in his workshops. I don't know if you've been to one. He always talks about being in a peak state. He's like, you've got to get in a peak state and be peak state 24-7 if you want to create impact and results, right? So he'd always be like, get peak state, get in peak state two years ago he changed his entire language that he's had for four decades or whatever to it's not a peak state it's a beautiful state and there's a distinction it's hard to be at a peak state 24 7 it's hard to like be ramped up well if you're at a peak state 24 7 then there is no other state like how you can't be like it's a it's called a peak for
Starting point is 01:45:23 a reason exactly you know like i yeah and it's just not sustainable yeah for the world and so he learned through this meditation practice about being in a beautiful state and in a beautiful state you can be in a peak state you can be loving you can be giving you can be all these things you're you're in total flow and um it's so it's crazy now you go to his workshop he talks about let's get into a beautiful state and he learned it from this workshop experience And so for a guy who's kind of like always been the teacher for millions of people for decades to be able to change his philosophy, I was like, Hmm,? Ah, there's probably like 20, 30. There was probably like 30 people in like the first week, which was like the, the general five day meditation, like beginners workshop. Then I think there were like six or eight of us in the meditation instructor training workshop afterwards.
Starting point is 01:46:18 So it was, it was great, man. If you ever go, I highly recommend it. Cool, man. Yeah. I'll check it out. Yeah. All right, man. I think we did it. It was fun, man. If you ever go, I highly recommend it. Yeah, cool, man. I'll check it out. Yeah. All right, man. I think we did it.
Starting point is 01:46:26 It was fun, man. So this is the third time I think you've been on my podcast. I've been on three times. I think I've been on your, I think so. I think I've only been twice, right? The first time and then when your book came out. Oh, okay. And now it's time.
Starting point is 01:46:38 Yeah, so I think this is the third time. And then I think I've been on yours twice. Two or three times probably, yeah. So this is our fifth podcast. It's good man i think it was the best one though this is fun maybe it was good right it's more organic the dog's barking i know everything happening real life is happening you know it's great man it's it's good man uh so we can't we're not living perfect here you know we're we took off our masks
Starting point is 01:46:58 i know we yeah i don't live in a hermetically sealed world exactly you know what i mean i'm in acceptance of yes you know the flow of nature nature interferences that come it's fine those are my dogs yes uh anyway so the book comes out october 19th october 31st halloween we take off the mask on halloween halloween we come as a god come as yourself please tell me come as your true self is this your did you come up with that tagline lewis come as yourselves baby okay we're all gonna have a party on halloween and we just show up as we are are you gonna throw a big halloween party no i'll probably do a party a couple days before because halloween everyone's gonna want to do something else everybody's got a got a plan for that well cool so yeah you're
Starting point is 01:47:37 probably about to ramp up a ton of press you're going to new york and doing all that kind of stuff that's the goal cool man well the book is great. Congratulations. I think it holds the power and the potential to help a lot of people. And that's a good thing in the world, man. So your blessing, uh, I appreciate you. This is how you always on your pod. I appreciate you in my life. And I do, man. Uh, it's been a cool journey that we're on and, uh, it's been great to watch you impact so many people. And I have no doubt that this will only continue to grow and expand. So I wish you well and best of luck with the book.
Starting point is 01:48:11 And let's just, uh, talk again soon, man. Thanks, man. All right. So lewishouse.com you're simple to find on the internet, just at Lewis house everywhere. That's it. And, uh, he's cranking out content like nobody's business. Check out the podcast the book school of greatness uh book as well and we'll talk again soon man thanks man appreciate you
Starting point is 01:48:30 peace plants and now it's a plan is that what you said i always say that at the end peace and plants now uh now an airplane's flying over and plants it's great man thank you cool yeah man hope you guys enjoyed that one i hope it leaves you looking at yourself in the mirror Cool. It's great, man. Thank you. Cool. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, man. Hope you guys enjoyed that one. I hope it leaves you looking at yourself in the mirror a little bit more openly, a little bit more objectively. I hope it gives you a bit more courage to own and inhabit your truth because it's your truth, right?
Starting point is 01:48:59 So maybe stop hiding it and just own it. And I really believe that if you do that, I think you'll be amazed. Anyway, hit up Lewis on Twitter or Instagram at Lewis Howes. Let him know what you thought of the conversation. Pick up his new book. Check out the show notes at richroll.com to dig deeper into today's guests and the subject matter. Always check the show notes out, you guys.
Starting point is 01:49:21 We put a ton of time and effort into them. Again, you might enjoy checking out our new plant power meal planner, thousands of plant-based recipes, unlimited meal plans and grocery lists. Everything is totally personalized and customized. We have amazing customer support from a team of experts. We even have grocery delivery in many, many metropolitan areas. We're getting great feedback. This is life-changing stuff, you guys. And it's totally affordable, just $1.90 a week when you sign up for a year. To learn more, go to meals.richroll.com or click on Meal Planner on the top menu at richroll.com. If you would like to support this show and my work, share it with your friends and on social
Starting point is 01:50:00 media, leave a review on iTunes, hit that subscribe button on iTunes. We also have a Patreon set up for those who want to support my work financially. Thank you to everybody who has done that. And in exchange for that, as I mentioned the other day, I'm going to start doing a monthly AMA Ask Me Anything video teleconference with the Patreon supporters. I just scheduled the first one. It's going to be on November 9th at 2 p.m. PST. But you got to be a supporter on Patreon to join. If you are a supporter on Patreon, you should see that on my Patreon page.
Starting point is 01:50:35 Click the banner ad on any episode page at richroll.com. There's a Patreon banner. It will take you there and you can find all the details there. If you would like to receive a free short weekly email from me, I send one out most weeks. It's called roll call five or six things. I stumbled across over the course of the week that I found inspiring or informative, no spam, no affiliate links. I'm not trying to make any money here. Just, uh, it's just a cool way for me to share things that seem to get lost on social media. That's it. That's it.
Starting point is 01:51:05 You guys want to thank everybody who helped put on the show today. Jason Camiolo for audio engineering, production, interstitial music, show notes, Sean Patterson for help on graphics, David Zamet for his photo portraits and video. We did do a video of Lewis.
Starting point is 01:51:20 So check that out on my YouTube page, youtube.com forward slash rich roll and theme music as always by Anna Lima. Thanks for the love you guys. Uh, see you back here next week until then make it great. Maybe take that mask off, see how it goes. Hit me up on social media and let me know what that experiment's all about. All right, you guys, peace plants. Love you. Namaste. Thank you.

There aren't comments yet for this episode. Click on any sentence in the transcript to leave a comment.