The Rich Roll Podcast - Vinnie Tortorich Returns

Episode Date: February 9, 2013

Buckle up! Back by popular demand, the controversial and outspoken Vinnie Tortorich — “America's Angriest Trainer” and my favorite guy to ride a bike with — returns to the podcast as my first repeat guest so we can throw down and get to the bottom — for the very first time — of what constitues the most ideal diet. Is it “low carb” (Vinnie)? Or “plant-based” (Rich)? Maybe something in between or alternatively something else entirely? There can only be one winner in this argument, right? Tune in to find out. And we'll let you be the judge. Whether or not you end up with some greater conviction or just more confused, only you can say. At a minimum, and wherever you come down on the debate, you will feel moved by Vinnie's frankness about his past & continuing battle with leukemia. At one point in the interview, Vinnie makes the very controversial statement that there is no correlation between dietary fat and cardiovascular disease. Just so we are clear, I do not share this view. Give me an opportunity to dig into the research a bit more thoroughly and I will return to the blog and/or podcast with my supported findings. NOTE: Despite my admonishments after his last tour on the show about keeping it all family friendly, Vinnie couldn't help himself and went off script with a few explicit lapses of the tongue. Nothing crazy, but just a heads up if you're blasting it at work or happen to be unusually squeamish. Apologies, but give him a break — he is, after all, America's Angriest Trainer and has a reputation to maintain. Thanks for the support and enjoy the show! SHOW NOTES Wikipedia: Saturated Fat & Cardiovascular Disease Controversy The Angriest Trainer Podcast VinnieTortorich.com Vinnie on Twitter @VinnieTortorich Vinnie on Facebook Ben Greenfield's “Become Superhuman” Conference, March 8-9. 2013 Spokane, WA – use the code “RICHROLL” to get 50% off the $297 registration price. Click HERE to learn more, see the list of speakers and sign up.

the rich roll podcast say hi do your whole thing while i sip on this coffee all right there is no whole thing man it's just it's the vinnie show you just roll right into it you know i i listen i listen to you i listen to your podcast yeah because it's the only way i get to see you or hear you right i feel like i'm having'm having a relationship. We used to have an in-person relationship on the bike, but that has not existed for a while. And computers have taken that away from us. I know. Even though, as the crow flies, we don't live that far apart. Not at all.

No, not even. I mean, right over that hill is where I live. Right. We never see each other except when we come in here and you turn on i run into you at starbucks yeah we see each other at starbucks i know it's a crying shame but what i heard on my way here i was listening to you on the podcast because i love your podcast see i'm a vegan at heart yeah you are you're like maca maca always chris mccormick says think vegan think vegan you know but then he goes a restaurant, he doesn't order vegan.

He told me that he originally said, yeah, I'm really into this vegan thing. I wash forks over knives. I'm super into it. I think vegan. And when I go to restaurants, I eat vegan. But only when I eat out. And then we went out to breakfast after a swim workout, and he ordered bacon and eggs. So I guess that was out there.

And he said, no, but I'm thinking about being vegan. Yeah, as long as you think vegan, you're there. What was that phrase in that movie, Breathe Through Your Eyes? Right. Which movie was that? It was a baseball movie with Susan Sarandon. Field of Dreams? Oh, no, the other one with Tim Robbins.

Yeah. Yeah. Breathe Through Your Eyes. Right. Yeah. Breathe through your eyes. Right. You know, it's like, think vegan. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety.

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As a matter of fact, it's almost like we're in a divorce because there are people who are going, well, I'm torn between you and Rich. I know, I know. Well, I've gotten some emails over the past couple days. I'm confused. You're saying one thing. Vinny says another thing. Ben Greenfield says something else. I had Tim Van Orden on who's a raw vegan runner

who's done really, really well. So he's taking it to a whole different level. And then people are in some sort of tailspin over the whole thing. Yeah, and hopefully today we could clear some of that up in between talking about everything else. Let me see if I can find this while we're talking. There were a couple tweets.

There was a Facebook thing. I didn't bring my glasses in here, but the guy's name is Lon Lomas, and he follows us, I think, tweet-wise, but he also writes to me. Should have really brought my glasses in. Hold it. Let me see. I can read it. Read that email there,

the last one. I listened to your advice like gospel. Rich R is talking with MMA guy says ketosis is bad and dangerous. I know you guys are chatting soon. Could you two go over this? I'd like to find a life fuel plan that strikes a healthy balance. I'm sure you guys have plenty to chat about. Thanks for everything. So I thought that was a good kicking off. I read that on the way here because that's what I do when I drive. I retweet. I mean, that's how you drive in L.A.

Shame on you. No, I read it when I was getting this coffee at Starbucks. But that's an interesting question. First of all, who's the MMA guy? I had, his name is James Wilkes, James Lightning Wilkes. And he was a champion of the Ultimate Fighter season nine, that reality show.

He's now retired. He had like a vertebrae injury, so he doesn't compete anymore. But he has a gym in Orange County and he uh is full on board with the plant-based movement eats a plant-based diet he's a very intelligent articulate guy and he tours around and gives speeches about plant-based diet and is you know very knowledgeable about that but he's you know he's all gung-ho on the plant plant-powered

movement is that why he says ketosis is bad and because a lot of people don't well in fairness i think i think in fairness i think that i was the one who was saying it and i wasn't saying that it was inherently bad my my take on it based upon what i've read and the way that i understand it is that ketosis is and again i'm not a nutritionist i'm not a doctor i've also been getting emails from people saying you you know, don't talk out your ass. So I gotta be careful about that. Welcome to the podcast. My understanding, and please do your own research on all of this. But the way I understand it is that ketosis is a physiological state that occurs when you're eating a very low-carb, higher-protein diet

that is very effective at weight loss but also puts strain on your kidneys. And in a protracted state of ketosis, it can lead to kidney stones and kidney know kidney uh kidney problems so if you have a different take on that or you have a different understanding well you're about you're about 60 there and this is a good time to talk about this and yeah because the listen and the other thing that came up in the interview with james was that the low carb movement of which you are a very avid subscriber to and the paleo movement, they have the microphone right now. They have the stage. This is the most popular diet, and people are curious about it. And of course, I have a different perspective on that, and I

adhere to a different way of eating and living. So here we are sitting across from each other, and people think that we're going to punch each you know, punch each other in the face. Yeah, that's what I was going to say. It's like a divorce. Somebody's going to be, somebody's going to be a winner and somebody's going to be a loser. And, you know, if one person can't come out on top, then, then there's just confusion and. Well, let me send your audience to bed right now.

We're not going to solve this today. Good night, everybody. Right. I'll see you later. Podcast over. Yeah, done. Because this won't be settled here. Um um nor will it probably ever be settled um well and this is why there's hundreds of of diet books that come out every year and it increases the confusion even more um let me

address what you said earlier about um uh first off ketosis gets a bad rap just all the way around from a lot of people years ago they got a really bad rap um and the reason being is there's something called ketoacidosis and what that is is you know it's a medical condition uh people end up in ketoacidosis when um for different reasons if you have um diabetes uh people who like the karen carpenters of the world who died from starvation from you know they she had a different problem she was a uh um why is this term anorexic anorexic um those people run into trouble because their bodies are literally eating themselves. Dietary ketosis is a lot different.

I talked about this on the Angriest Trainer podcast a couple of weeks ago. I'm not so much a low-carb guy, but what I adhere to is pretty low-carb. And let me explain that, and then I'm going to bring it full circle. I believe in no sugars and no grains. The more you can stay away from sugar, meaning granular sugar like just sugar, not the sugar you find in fruit and vegetables, unless you're squeezing it out. But the more you can stay away from sugars, the more you can stay away from grains, the less problems you have as a human being just trying to live through life. You're not going to gain weight. You're not going to have all of the inflammation that your body can have.

And even if all you did was get rid of soda and processed foods, which contain all the refined grains, you're more than halfway there, I would say. You won't be fat. If you were fat and you start doing that, you won't be fat anymore. It's as simple as that. But we're talking about, you know, my podcast went off the deep end right around,

we're at 90 or 95, but I don't know where we are, but somewhere in the 50s, something happened and I started talking about ketosis. Because, as you know, that's the way I live. And I always stayed away from that. I didn't really talk about it in my book. That's still not out. And I didn't talk about it on the podcast a whole hell of a lot.

But I was outed on the podcast. And I started talking about it. So then I became— Outed me? You went over the deep end, and you were outed in what podcast and i started talking about it so then i became outed me you went over the deep end and you were outed in what way you mean you got i had a guest on no i had a uh a guest on who um is an actress uh who uses me to lose weight when she has to lose a ton of weight to be on on uh in tv shows and movies and she was doing a movie with Minnie Driver. And she talked about how I put people into ketosis and I was outed. I do that as a profession and I do it in a professional way.

And that's when we started talking about it. And that's when the whole, hey, you're one of those ketosis guys came out. And I think just to backtrack ketosis really became a keyword or a catchphrase when atkins had its ascendancy in the mid 90s really right i mean that's when actually nobody had really heard of ketosis until atkins the atkins he was talking about back in the 70s right but atkins didn't take hold until later yeah yeah it well it took hold.

It fell off and it took hold. He keeps taking hold. And there's a reason for that. He meaning who? Dr. Atkins? The Atkins-style diet, which, by the way, I have some problems with also. I hope so.

I have problems with everything. But here's the thing. When I started talking about ketosis, I kept telling people, listen, I'm not telling you to go into ketosis unless that's something you really want to do. You really want to read up on it. You really want to figure it out. But just like most athletes who want to do everything to the nth degree, I started getting tons and tons of questions. So I started going deeper and deeper. So now my show is about two things.

For the normal people, it's about no sugars and no grains. For the real wackos who want to take it to that almost biohacking style form, I have the, okay, you can go into ketosis. And I talked about this a few shows ago. I mentioned that it's not good to go in and out because people are going, well, I was in ketosis and now I'm out. So I need to go back in again and now I'm out. That's not a good idea at all because when your body is going into ketosis for those first couple of weeks, your body creates more acid. And that's where the problem starts, where people start with the kidney stones. the problem starts where people start with the kidney stones right because when you are when when you're in an in an acidic state when your blood ph is on the acidic side your body has to

go into hyperdrive to bring it back to a more neutral state which is your natural state and in order to do that generally my understanding is that it then resorts to leaching minerals out of your bones, which is why we, which brings up the osteoporosis issue and the kidney stones and the like. So we're talking about essentially what you're saying is it's the difference between long-term sustainable wellness and a performance gain. If you want to lose weight, ketosis, there's no question that ketosis is very effective at that. But as a solution to long-term wellness, I mean, personally, it's not something that I could recommend. Well, I recommend it to people who want to stay in it.

I stay in it. And I do it for different reasons, by the way. Before I had cancer, I didn't care. And that's something we haven't even talked about. Yeah, we didn't get it. If you're comfortable talking about it, I'd love to talk about that. But before cancer, I ate sugar like there was no tomorrow. Whenever I could get away with the sugar, I would eat it.

I was still a no-sugar, no-grain guy, but if a dessert was around and it was a special treat, I would have it. I was still a no sugar, no grain guy, but if a dessert was around and it was a special treat, I would have sugar. I love sugar. Post-cancer, I live in ketosis because there's just too many studies out there that shows that, by the way, my cancer is going to come back, but when it comes back is pretty much up to me. The more sugar you eat, the more chances you're giving yourself to have that cancer grow. And I'm not interested in going back on chemo one second before I have to. That's the main reason I live in ketosis. What I found was that being in ketosis allows me to exercise for hours on end without needing any additional food, just running off of my own fat. for hours on end without needing any additional food, just running off of my own fat.

And that's when I got into the whole, wow, you can actually exercise this way and do well this way. But still, I want to go back to what we were saying before, just for a second. If you're in ketosis and you want to stay in ketosis, that's fine. Going in and out can cause problems. It causes your body to create too much acid. It causes inflammation, the same kind of inflammation you could get from too much sugar. It becomes that too much of anything is bad. But if you stay in ketosis, all of that levels out and it's just like your body runs just normal. What about the bad breath and all of these sort of long-term issues that I've read about that come up? Ketoacidosis gives you the bad breath.

So what's the difference between ketosis and ketoacidosis, though? I mean, if you're in a perpetual state of ketosis, isn't that the same thing as ketoacidosis? No, no, it's different. It's a different form of ketosis. I don't know the scientific terms to explain it. I just don't. It's been explained to me 20 different ways, and I still don't get it, but there's a physiological difference. And I wish I could explain it, but I don't want to give wrong information here and right well and i don't know the answer either but i would implore everybody who's listening to to do their own research because i think it is it's not something to entertain lightly it's something that you want to really understand before you get into it and again vinny and i are on different sides of the table on this i mean my perspective just to be

clear uh is you know all i know and this is rooted in my own personal experience, and I only speak from my personal experience, but when I'm eating a well-rounded whole food plant-based diet, not only do I perform well, train well, race well, and feel good, you know, not all the time, I'm a human being, but, you know, in the balance of the equation, I feel really good and better than I used to. I don't have to worry about these kinds of things. I don't have to worry about, I don't get caught up in ratios of carbs to fat and I don't have to run a mental calculus when I'm eating of this or that. And I don't overdo it on fruits, but I don't avoid them either. And I don't overdo it on fruits, but I don't avoid them either.

And basically, when I'm eating clean like that, my body sort of just functions well. And I don't have to get super scientific and biohacking about the whole equation. See, I think that's something you and I agree on. You had Ben on your show, Ben Greenfeld. And I had him on my show. As a matter of fact, his show is out right now today. I had him on about show ben greenfeld and i had him on my show but you know as a matter of fact his show is out right now today uh i had him on about a week ago and you know by the way his his conference is coming up in uh spokane yeah i don't know the dates offhand but uh he invited me to that oh he did yeah to be a speaker yeah oh you didn't invite me i guess he likes you more. Yeah. But you can get 50% off

if you go to the website for it and use the code Richroll. I think it's superhuman. I can't remember what it is. I'll put the link in the show notes or rebate if you're interested and in the area and want to attend. I think it's in early March

and he's got a pretty cool speaker lineup. Yeah, I think Dave Asprey is going to be there also. Oh yeah. I heard him on Joe Rogan. He was interesting. He's coming on my show. Uh, we're trying to figure out a date when we can both be, you know, when he can be on the phone and I can be in a studio. Um, he, you know, the biohacking guys is really interesting what they're doing, but I think you and I, if we can't agree on a particular diet, we agree that you don't have to sit there and trick your body into, you know, I think it's interesting what they're doing,

but it just seems like a waste of a whole day. Well, also, yeah, I want to live my life, you know, and my, and yes, I'm very interested in health and nutrition, and that's the predominant subject matter of this podcast. But, you know, I have a life outside of this, and I don't want to be spending every waking moment of my day thinking about, you know, the proportion of this and that in my food and what that's going to do. Like, I just want to live my life. And when I'm eating clean and when I'm eating, you know, a whole food plant-based diet, it takes care of itself. And I think that then I don't have to, you know, I'm not going to get out the test tubes and be doing all that.

And that's great that Dave does that and guys like Tim Ferriss and all of that. And, you know, we can learn from their experience in that regard. But that's not my life. You know, look, we're talking, just having been on the show and uh i'm sure it's going to be the same when dave comes on by the way i love dave's coffee the bulletproof coffee yeah the bulletproof so what's it i've heard him talk about it on joe and joe joe rogan talks about it as well does it come with the the butter in it or do you add that no you as a matter of fact i don't buy his coffee you know because it's just so damn expensive right and for the listener uh he has

this product called bulletproof coffee and he speaks uh intelligently about uh i think it's called microtoxins yeah uh the my the mycotoxins or the microtoxins i'm not sure which one i think is mycotoxins yeah And essentially these sort of fungi, funguses, fungi mold that grows not just on coffee, but I think a lot of the foods that we eat and how that interferes with our digestive systems and the optimal functioning of our bodies. And apparently his coffee beans are mycotoxin free.

And as a result of that, it a a clean you know it's better for your body or whatever if you're a coffee drinker but you better have some money in your pocket because it's like 18 for 12 ounces yeah of course yeah and you know he says you know he even puts an ad on his site he goes it's only two dollars more than starbucks but no starbucks charges you 12 for the whole pound and he's charging you $18 for like 12 or 13 ounces. So it's significantly more money. But I'll give the recipe because as a matter of fact, I had a bulletproof coffee this morning

or most people call it fat coffee on the internet. Right, you put coconut oil in it or grass-fed butter or something like that. Grass-fed butter. Again, you put coconut oil in it or grass-fed butter or something like that? Yeah, you put grass-fed butter. Again, you know. This is a, you know, have fat in the morning, be a fat-burning ketosis machine by Vinny Tortorich. And by the way, it works. Do I have the bulletproof coffee every morning?

No. By works, what do you mean works? You can drink that. If I drink a fat coffee at 5 in the morning, I don't have to eat again until 1 in the afternoon. How many calories is in that butter or coconut oil you put in there? I'll tell you what's in it. You have coffee, like a mug and a half of coffee you put in your Vitamix. You add literally three or four ounces of butter, like almost a stick of butter. And then you add on top of that, a medium chain triglyceride. If you don't have an MCT oil,

you can use coconut oil. I prefer the coconut oil because it gives it a little bit of a different flavor. It's kind of nutty. And on top of that, you know, you can throw a little, I throw a little cinnamon in it for taste and also cinnamon, you know, tends to even out your blood sugar. But you can sip that all morning long or drink it all at once and you're not going to be hungry because you have a ton of calories in your system. Yeah. I mean, to be clear, you're putting a stick of butter in your coffee in the morning. I mean, this is a, you know, is this really, when you're putting a stick of butter in your coffee in the morning. I mean, this is a, you know, is this really, when you're speaking to an audience of people that are trying to improve their health, maybe lose weight. And we have a society in which 600,000 people suffer a heart

attack every year to me. And this is just me personally. It sounds irresponsible to advise somebody to put a whole ton of butter in their coffee in the morning to start their day. Like I just can't get behind that. The problem with the media and what's out there is that we don't get heart disease from cholesterol. We get it from hardening of the arteries. The cholesterol is just a final thing that goes through the blood that clogs the artery. But you cannot get around the fact that the extent of saturated fat and chemicals in our food and all the like are contributing to heart disease. No, that's not at all. See, this is where— See, that's where we disagree.

There's just no—and as a matter of fact, the heart community is coming around to that now. Look, before the 1970s, and as a matter of fact, the heart community is coming around to that now. That, you know, look, before the 1970s, we didn't even have stats. Well, here's what I would say. Let me just back it up with this. That if you are going to adhere to a very strict Vinnie Tortorich type diet or Dave Asprey type diet or low carb,

and you are gonna get rid of all the sugars and all the grains and avoid the processed foods, et cetera, et cetera. Um, you know, again, I'm not a cardiologist. I'm not a research scientist. I, you know, I think that the studies differ on this, uh, that there's a possibility for you to be healthy, I suppose. I mean, you seem healthy and you advocate this and there are plenty of others that do. The problem comes in when the average person who's not going to do this 100%

or is going to have the cheat days where they're eating ice cream and other types of unhealthy foods. Here's the message that it's great to eat bacon for breakfast and put a stick of butter in your coffee and have a huge omelet with cheese and go about your day. And it's not going to have any ill effect on your heart. And I think that that is hugely problematic when we have a culture that is mired and we're sicker than we ever have been. And it's getting worse. And that message makes me, you know, it, it literally, it, it, I just find it irresponsible.

Yeah. But it's not irresponsible in that, you know, if you go back to the thing that's causing all the problems, the grains, you know, grains cause more problems. So you're saying that heart disease, what is contributing to the 600,000 heart attacks a year? It's certainly not cholesterol because cholesterol is a fat, and that's not going to make your arteries harden. What does make your arteries harden is plaque,

and that plaque is caused by sugars and grains. That's not me speaking. That's just how the body works. And once you have the plaque buildup in the artery, now you have a real problem. So the cholesterol, the fat lipid of the cholesterol can't pass through anymore. That's why cholesterol gets the bad rap. So then why, in your opinion—

And by the way— So, all right, look. I'm going to get creamed if we don't explore this a little bit further. No, no, no. I want to— And by the way, I'm not a doctor. Right, I know. Neither of us are doctors.

So please, I implore you to read up on this yourself. But I will say this. Dr. Esselstyn, who wrote Prevent and Reverse Heart Disease, has established and over 30 years of research that not only can he prevent heart attacks on a whole food plant-based diet, but he can actually reverse heart disease when people adopt his protocol. But it only works when they're on an extremely low-fat whole food plant-based diet. When they're eating coconut oil and avocados and nuts and the like, he didn't see the reversals. And these reversals are established in these angiograms where he actually has pictures

of before and after pictures of people's hearts. And you can see the clogged arteries before, and you can see the healthy arteries afterwards. And he's been doing this since the 70s and he would tell you that there is a significant link between the amount of fat that you're taking into your diet and its impact on cardiac disease and then you could find the same amount of doctors who will tell you exactly the opposite so then you have to wonder where the truth lies well then i but then i look at the authors of some of these books like lauren cordain and like dr atkins and other people who they don't look that good they look a little they don't look that healthy so maybe they're not taking their own advice or in some cases that that's that's actually the case now i i will agree with this because as

you know i'm a vegan at heart and by the way before we go on to this when i'm not drinking i don't drink fat coffee every morning usually i have what's called my fat shake which is filled with spinach chard kale all mixed into a vitamin mix with a ton of coconut oil that's that's my fat shake every morning and i was also put some raspberries and berries in general and right so in other words you're not saying don't eat vegetables oh god no don't eat fruit god no as you know i'm just now i had a huge salad and i'm gonna have another huge salad before i eat a steak tonight right i think that's one of the biggest misconceptions about low-carb people they think that we sit around with a big slab of beef all day and eating tons of butter but um the point i wanted to get to is that that's

the way i actually eat. When I'm not having a bulletproof style coffee for breakfast, I'm eating my fat shake, or I'll have bacon and eggs. Usually it's egg because I don't have time to make bacon in the morning. It's 4.30, I'm blurry-eyed. I'll just eat a bunch of eggs cooked in butter and leave the house that way if I'm not having a fat shake. But I think what happens is when a doctor comes out with a study like this that says, look, I can show the reversal by eating cleanly,

by eating nuts, by eating coconut oil, by eating a ton of vegetables, I agree with that because when you take someone off of all of the preservatives, the stuff that's causing the problem, partially hydrogenated or hydrogenated oils, which is a huge problem. All of the coloring we put in food, all the processing we do to food. Once you get rid of that, it doesn't matter if you're a fat eater or a vegan eater. It pretty much doesn't matter. The problem, just by eating cleanly, pretty much goes away.

So you can probably show either way that this problem is fixed if you can have a double-blind study with people eating cleanly and people eating just the way they want to eat. But to my knowledge, the only person who has been successful in establishing a pattern and a methodology to actually reverse heart disease is Dr. Esselstyn. I can't speak to it because I just don't know. Right. And then you have, and diabetes is the same thing. Dr. Neil Barnard is, I think his book just came out or it's about to come out on, or

no, actually he, no, this book came out earlier on reversing diabetes on a plant-based diet too. So I don't know. And again, you can definitely reverse the problem on a plant-based diet. I think drinking a lot of reverse type 2 diabetes on a plant-based diet, but if you're having too many sugars in that plant-based diet you're going to have problems in other words if we talked about this in the last show or maybe i talked about it on my show um if you squeeze the juice out and you don't leave the fiber in in other words if you go to a juicy ladies or you have a you know a machine at home that squeezes

his juice out yeah you're getting all the phytonutrients, but you're also getting just a big spike of sugar onto your liver, which can cause an insulin response. And as we know, the only way to get diabetes is when you keep getting an insulin response over and over and over to where your body doesn't respond anymore. Sure. I mean, I would you know if you're juicing a lot that you're getting a lot of sugar but i don't know that i've ever heard of anybody who's

contracted type 2 diabetes because they were juicing all the time study out just recently no that was a recent study where they were showing vegans or vegetarian i don't know if those vegetarians are vegans uh and there is a big distinction where they were they were showing well there's unhealthy vegans too it's like vegan that can mean a lot of different things so yeah so you know the the problem lies somewhere in between and again we're not scientists we're just two guys sitting in you know mulholland highway talking we shouldn't say where you are yeah that was not good sorry i'll beep it out yeah um we're just two guys sitting in a garage right now yeah sitting in southern california guys we're just two guys that like to ride our bike and like to feel good and and and maybe are speaking

out of school a little bit too much yeah you know because there's too many studies either way and again that's where the confusion is you know it's is. People don't know what to do. And you said something earlier that if people take the partial message of, oh, Vinny says I have to eat a lot of fat and I'm going to lose weight that way, and they only take the partial message and they keep eating ice cream and they keep eating junk, you're absolutely right, man. They're going to have a big problem. I keep eating junk. You're absolutely right, man. They're going to have a big problem. Yeah, I mean, my thing is, how do you create a long-term, sustainable lifestyle, dietary, fitness solution that will work within the construct of your life,

understanding that we're all busy, where we don't have to all turn our kitchens into biohacking laboratories and move on with our lives and be healthy and know that we're doing the right thing for ourself. And I think half-truths and partial messages that get, we're all fallible, we're all human, we make mistakes and nobody does a diet perfectly. And we're in an extraordinary healthcare crisis at the moment. People are more sick than ever.

The obesity rates are through the roof. It is ridiculous. And so for me, it's an elementary thing of, look, you want to feel better? Just eat a plant-based diet. It'll solve all your problems. It will help to combat the onset of all of these diseases that are plaguing us on that unnecessarily uh and which are in many ways food-borne illnesses food and lifestyle-borne illnesses that are easily treatable reversed or prevented with proper diet

right and then we get into all these differences of diet etc so you know we start splitting hairs but you know i think that people people want to hear that it's okay for them to eat bacon and eggs for breakfast they love it and that's a big reason why these diets are popular because you know people are they want to know that they can do what they like doing and that it's good for them. People want to eat something with total impunity. I talk about that in the book a lot. They're always saying to me, what's the one thing that I can just eat all the time? And there is not the one thing you can eat all the time.

I found over the years that, you know, when people eat sugar, and I'm not talking about plant-based versus, you know. Processed. Processed versus low-carb. When people eat sugar, it becomes an addiction. It becomes this, I have some sugar, I want more sugar. Sugar wants sugar. You know, if you didn't eat the candy bar, you won't think about the candy bar. But when you're eating these big, when you're getting these big sugar spikes, you want more of it. So if you have a box of Cracker Jacks at your desk,

you know, and you say, well, I'm just going to eat half of it. I'm going to eat the rest later. Well, if it's sitting at your desk, you're going to eat the whole thing. You can't not do it. Very few human beings can stop because once you have that sweet tooth going, your body's going to want more and more and more. And since we burn that sugar so fast, your body's going to want more and more and more and since we burn that sugar so fast your body's going to be craving it your brain's now craving it right and that addiction is rooted in you know emotions uh it's it's physical it's mental it's emotional and it's biochemical it has to do with the microbial ecology in your gut it's very complicated and this is where I get into my issues with the whole cheat day concept. You know, Tim Ferriss and his slow carb diet says you can have one day a week where you can knock yourself out and eat whatever you want. come to this from an addiction recovery perspective, because that's my experience,

that as long as you have that cheat day, that will continue. You will remain a prisoner to those foods that you crave because you're never actually breaking that cycle of craving and you're never really free. So if once a week, you know you can eat ice cream or you know you can eat that one thing that you're not supposed to eat, you're going to spend the whole week thinking about that until you get that fix and then waiting another week until you get it again. And if you could just break that cycle and free yourself from that, you might have 10 days of discomfort, but then you'll be free from that craving and you won't really think about it that much anymore. You talk about your alcoholism because you talked about it in the book. I mean, that would be like telling an alcoholic that once a week they can drink all they want. Oh, are you kidding?

You know, I know most alcoholics would go, yeah, you know, I can do that. Right. Not most, but the ones that could, would's it's the same sort of thing you know you can't i would quickly devolve into you know into twice a week and then three times a week and then 24 hours a day it never ends um i'd be out in the gutter pretty quick no keep not drinking that we like you better like this i gotta tell to tell you, much better. I didn't know you before, but I have a family member. It's not good. Here's where I fall off the page with the Tim Ferriss types.

And when I say Tim Ferriss, I'm saying Tim. I'm not saying his types. In a weird sort of way, you could throw Ben into that group and Dave, Dave Asprey. I don't believe in trickery. And that's trickery. And that's what I talk about in the book. You see, I don't look at veganism as being trickery. That's a lifestyle that people can live on.

That's why when people, you know, some of your fans listen to my show now, and they go, oh, my God, you don't hate vegans. No, I don't. Right. But somebody tweeted me and said that you said on your show that you never met a healthy vegan. Yeah. I take that personally. And the first tweet I got right after that show was, what about Rich Roll?

And I didn't even remember saying that in the show. I've never gone back to listen. But the bottom line is that I don't have a problem with veganism because it's not trickery. It's a lifestyle. Vegetarianism is a lifestyle. But when you have the Tim Ferriss's in the world, his whole deal is, how do we get away with something? Four-hour work week was that. How do we get 80% of the results with 20 with 20 of the work it's kind of his equation that informs all of his books it's sort of like you know uh how can we achieve most of the results with the least amount of effort or work and he's always been that guy you know how tim made his

first dollar in this business supplements he was selling he was selling a bullshit supplement that if you took it it was called brain quicken and i think he's divorced himself from that now because he tried to you know become more of a a real thing but brain quicken was a product that he guaranteed if you took it will make you smarter imagine that You could take a pill and end up on the Mensa list. You know, it was bullshit, and he knew it, and he's divorced himself from that, I think, now. But everything he's done in his life has been exactly what you said. Get 80% of the work done with 20% of trying to do it.

And just to be clear, I've gotten a lot out of his books, and his 4- work week book, you know, had plenty of tools that, that I found very helpful. And I talked about it in my book too. So I liked, I liked him, you know, so I'm not going to agree with him and every, no, I've never met him. He, he was, I've had emails back and forth with him and he was very kind to let me post a guest blog post on his blog when my book came out uh and the reason that i was connected with him is when he was writing the four-hour body he was looking for some vegan athletes to talk to and we got introduced and he interviewed me for four-hour body i didn't end up

in the book but that's how i so but i've never met him in person. But he's been cool to me. I have no problem with him. I don't have a beef with him either. As a matter of fact, I go to his website to learn how to push my own book that's coming out. Yeah, and what's great about him is he's so free with the information that he's learned, whether it's through book publishing or biohacking or whatever it is, 90% of it is freely available on his website. And the same thing,

when my book was getting ready to come out, I studied all of his blog posts on how he, you know, the tools that he leveraged to market his book. And I found it very, very helpful. By the way, same here. I'm combing his site because I have that book coming out. And, but still with all that, you know, I don't believe in shortcuts in life. And these guys are offering shortcuts. And I just fundamentally have a problem with it. To be fair, though, don't you think that on some level, in all honesty and objectivity,

isn't ketosis sort of a shortcut? I mean, it's a way to lose weight, but is it a healthy lifestyle, sustainable lifestyle option? That's my question, I guess. Before I went into ketosis long-term, I used to feel like it was trickery, but living on ketones,

I have no problem with it. I'm able to stay in ketosis, eating all the vegetables I want to eat. Some people can. I think because you're so sort of not deficient, that's not the right word, but you're eating so little sugars that a lot of people, from what I understand, correct me if I'm wrong, start to have these crazy sugar cravings because they're depriving themselves of any sugars. And then that leads them out of the diet. So you have guys like, who's the, live in the low carb, live in La Vida.

Jimmy Moore. Jimmy Moore, right? So he's been very open and honest about how his weight fluctuates. And that was a guy who was extremely overweight, lost a ton of weight on a low-carb diet, but then kind of goes up and down and fluctuates, right? I mean, is that fair? Yeah, he does go up and down. So why is this? And he's this huge evangelist of the low-carb lifestyle. Yeah, he goes in and out.

He seems to have a hard time kind of getting a grip on it in his own life. Well, some people do. I mean, you know, it's not just the physiological effect. There's a psychological effect, and people have problems. I don't know Jimmy well enough. We've only talked on the phone several times. I was on his show recently. As a matter of fact, I'm hosting his show in April.

He's asked me to guest host one of fact, I'm hosting his show in April. He's asked me to guest host one of his Living Levita low-carb shows. I don't know how that works. There's a psychological effect. And speaking to that, you're absolutely correct, because Atkins, we know a lot of people go on Atkins and they'll lose 40 or 50 pounds really fast. Next thing you know, they're off of Atkins and they'll lose 40 or 50 pounds really fast next thing you know they're off of atkins and they're weighing 80 and they rubber band yeah they rubber band seriously in the wrong direction afterwards and you're right if you take the tim ferris approach as we were talking about and you're using something for a quick fix and you're not willing to do it as a lifestyle then you have a problem. And I also think that there's

a distinction between, I mean, most people go on a diet to lose weight. They're not doing it because they want to have a long-term healthy lifestyle solution. And so there's this notion of it being temporary and it's all about the scale and what that number is and all of the data and kind of criteria for evaluating the success or lack of success of this protocol is based upon how much weight is lost versus how do you feel you know what are the rest of your numbers like are you able to sustain this when i look at the advocates of a low-fat plant-based diet the neil barnards of the world or whatever they're all very lean and healthy looking right their weight doesn't go up and down at all they look the same as they looked 15 years ago and by the

way they're the extremes like i understand on my side they're the extreme on their side but there's a lot of people we're talking about the people in between you know the people who are confused one week they're vegans the next week they're low-carb people and next week they're vegans, the next week they're low-carb people, and the next week they're vegans again. Right. And that's why you and I sitting across the table from each other confuses them even more. Right.

How can you sit in the same room? There's a huge demand for guys like you and me to sit across from each other and bang this out. And then when we do it, people say, well, now I'm more confused than ever. Yeah. And then when we do it, people say, well, now I'm more confused than ever.

Yeah, and that's what happened last time. I know. But by the way, folks, we're not trying to confuse any of you guys. As a matter of fact, I need to bring you back on my show so that my fans can hear you talking about the same conversation. I thought you said you've never met a healthy vegan.

And we can bring that up. Right. And look at you and go, yeah, I want to do something to that healthy vegan right now. Anytime, anytime. No, we want to have you back on. So I got to talk to Anna about when we can bring you in. But yeah, that's where the problem lies.

People want to hold on to one thing. People want to be a member of a team. Well, I talk about this a lot on the podcast as well. You want to be a member of a team that you can get rah-rah behind, that you can cheer behind, and there's a community aspect to that. And that's all very human and understandable, and I get that completely. People just want to be told the straight story. Just tell me what it is, and I'll do it.

And I guess it's not so simple as that. I have my point of view. You have your point of view. I can convince you of certain things and you can convince me of certain things. But at the end of the day, tonight I'm going to eat the way that I always eat. You're going to eat the way you always eat. You know what I mean? And we'll go out on a bike ride and we'll shoot the shit and still have a good time.

And I'm good with that. And neither diet is correct. I mean, whenever I walk, I'll go over to Commons and I'll sit at King's and I'll start eating. And so, hey, you're eating a salad. It's like, yeah, I eat a ton of veggies. That's where the confusion sets in is that people don't understand that you can stay low carb and eat a shitload of veggies. Right. Let me ask you this, and this will get us into some new terrain for us.

by this compelling argument that there is a link between animal protein and the onset and growth of cancer cells. So it confounds me whenever I see somebody who has undergone chemotherapy or suffered, you know, the terrible trauma of cancer and is on the other side of it, who is not embracing a plant-based diet. Because to me, and based upon what I've read, it's so compelling that I have a hard time seeing it otherwise. And you, I want to hear your story and kind of hear your journey through that. I've read the China study. And the key problem to that is they take a lot of poetic license. The study wasn't exactly the way, as a matter of fact, I think Peter Attia talks about it in his blog a bunch.

Do you talk about Peter Attia on this show at all? I haven't. I'm aware that there are people that have attempted to debunk the China study, and I talked about that with James Wilkes in the last episode, his opinion on that, and he's spent thousands of hours reading thousands of studies, and he just said that he did not find the debunking of the China study to be compelling.

And you see, that's where we differ, because I did find it compelling. And even before I read any of the studies, the problem I had with it, the inherent problem I have with everything, coming from a school that's steeped in science, is that it was a study of thousands or tens of thousands or millions of people. How many people were studied in that study? I don't know exactly, but this was not a small study. It was a study of a huge population of people that lasted for a very long time. And to me, that makes it more compelling.

That's where we differ. That's where it falls off the page for me because being from a scientific school where you're always doing double-blind studies, you come to learn that unless you have a double-blind study, you have nothing. And when you have millions of people who just walk around and they're not housed in any way, shape, or form, or are controlled in any kind of form, then the whole study is just out the window. You can make those numbers become whatever you want those numbers to become.

And this study was done, as you said, over years and years and years, decades, I think, if I remember right. I read that book a while back. And it was done with thousands or hundreds of thousands of people. So there's no way you can actually pull a real study from the China study. And that's the problem I had reading the book. And then everything I've read after that to debunk it, I kind of agree with because it was already there. In fairness, I mean, a double blind study. So you're going to have another 100,000 people

eating a different way. But then you'd have to deal with a completely different culture and with their cultural mores that get played into it. I mean, you couldn't conduct a study with that cultural mores that get played into it i mean you couldn't conduct a study of with that many people on that scale and make it double blind so right i think you have to look at it and go well there's some seriously powerful correlations going on here let me think about this i mean did it you can't read it and and not at least rethink what's going on i mean to say you can't just say, well, this is ridiculous

and throw it out the window. And you see, I can because that's where the discrepancy is. It's too big a study and it's done over too many years and it just doesn't hold water. All right, but let me ask you this. Just reading the book, before I read any outside studies, the entire book, because when you have cancer, you want to read everything.

Of course. And you read that and you go, yeah, I can't buy it. I can't buy it at all. It's the same as you brought up that movie with the two doctors that have both been kicked out of their universities. Forks over knives. Forks over knives. Well, that is the doctor of the China study.

Right. That's Dr. Esselstyn and T. Colin Campbell is his name, the author of the China study. You know, I'm not a Forks Over Knives guy. You know, I have a lot of trouble with that movie. See, I don't. You know, but you see, we see it through different eyes. And that's where the problem

as a matter of fact there yeah i don't know why i had some i'd have to go back and watch fork over knives again but i had a lot of problems the one that threw me off i can't remember the food ink food ink really threw me for a loop because when you watch that you don't know what to think anymore it's like okay i'm just not going to eat anymore you know they make you wise that, you don't know what to think anymore. It's like, okay, I'm just not going to eat anymore. They make you think that anything you eat, whether it's a vegetable or a meat or a beef product, everything is bad in that study. Well, it's just pulling the curtains on factory farming in general. It's an introduction to where the food that you find in the supermarket comes from, how it's positioned to speak to you on a marketing level, and how the system is set up to prevent you from having any understanding or connection to where it comes from. And that movie

was great at saying, well, let's go behind the scenes here and let's take a look at where these chickens are raised and how they're treated and how the farmers are treated, how they become indentured servitudes to the Tysons of the world. Which was horrible, by the way. I grew up in a country. I didn't grow up in L.A. And I saw where meat came from in two different fashions.

We would go pick our cow. We were that family because it was four boys and we had to eat a lot of meat. So we would journey off with my parents and we'd go to one of those farms and pick a cow. And then my mom would write down how she wanted these steaks to be cut and those steaks because the cuts matter. And it was a lot cheaper for a middle class family to do that. So we actually got to see where meat came from, which is pretty cool. We actually saw where eggs came from because we went down. There's this black lady right down the street.

I don't know why I had to say she was black, but in the South, that's what you do. There's this woman down the street who raised chickens, and we would get the fresh eggs from that. And, of course, I've chopped heads off of chickens. So I've seen that and I've done that. And I was a hunter until I was 19 years old, until I stopped. And the only reason I stopped was, and this is going to sound cocky as hell, but I became too efficient with a gun and I didn't feel like it was a sport anymore. My feeling was the animal didn't have a chance um and for that reason you know i do have that that thing with animals i have such a respect for animals um if you remember in the last podcast i thought your dog was running out right street and i was like jumping out of my chair to go get your

dog and that i have that kind of respect to where i felt like the animal, it wasn't a sport anymore. The animal didn't have a chance. I quit hunting, but I still eat meat. So, yeah, personally, I know where meat comes from. And I do believe in organic farming. I do believe in getting fruit and vegetables locally when you can. We fall prey to Ralph's. I don't know if you do, but sometimes if you need vegetables for that day and you don't have time to go anywhere else

and there's no farmer's market that's open, we walk right into Ralph's. We walk right into Smart and Final because they have a good array of vegetables. But we try to eat. Serena grew up the same way. They had a cow. They would actually, cow she raised her cow so her cow had a name and I appreciate

the desire to get back to that but at the same time we live as Food Inc so powerfully demonstrated we live in a different society with a very different system and it's incumbent upon us to vote with our dollars and maybe spend the extra few bucks to go to the farmer's market

to get the produce or whatever it is you're going to get so that it's locally grown and and the like um i think that's important but just to get back to this whole meat question and forks over knives and all of that because i i i'm still stuck on this one thing which is as somebody who who has suffered through cancer and by your own words say you know you know it's coming back or you think it's going to come back. Oh, no, there's 100% chance. There's 100% chance. I want to talk about that in a second. Even if you didn't find Forks Over Knives compelling or the China study compelling,

I think you'd be hard-pressed to make out an argument that eating meat is going to have a positive impact on your body's ability to combat the return of your cancer. So wouldn't it be worth just trying it out and saying, maybe there is something to this plant-based diet. I'm staring down the barrel of my cancer returning. around the barrel of my cancer returning, what can I do to do everything in my power to be best prepared for that or to combat it or to prevent it? And as your friend, as somebody who cares about you a lot.

You just need a riding partner. No, listen, seriously. Right. I mean, you could say, well't i didn't buy the china study but there isn't any studies out there that say if you're eating grass-fed beef or meat this is going to help you with cancer is there um here's where i'm basing it on I was told once my cancer was in remission I had a lot of cancer in me at the time I had leukemia and 80% of my bone marrow was leukemia

well let's just lay the foundation here a little bit let's go back and tell us what happened. I was getting ready for the 508, for a bike race. And that entire year, I kept getting sick. I was getting sick for about a year. A guy that never got sick. And it was all phantom illnesses. Like I would have a stomach cramp.

The kind that would just, I would be doubled over in pain and brought to a doctor and you know by a friend uh at all all hours of the night i was always cold i was more cold you know not like today i was always cold even on 100 degree days there were weird things happening and i kept chalking it up to you know just, just I'm training a lot, 30 hours in a saddle every week. Yeah, you're not going to feel good when you're— You're not going to feel great all the time. I'm getting older.

You know, I use that excuse. I used every—I'm thinner than I used to be. I was getting real thin. I was down to 150-some-odd pounds. You know, really crazy things were going on. I just kept chalking it up to everything else. And then finally I had a blood test. And that blood test revealed that I needed more blood tests.

And that revealed that I needed a bone marrow biopsy. And that revealed that you need to get chemo tomorrow. What year was this? This was 06 or 07, 07. Right. And I got chemo pretty quickly. Like literally within two days. It was a, no, we can't wait a week.

And they had to put me on just a a crap load of chemotherapy for a long like they told me either we're going to cure you or we're going to kill you with this chemo as a matter of fact it was one of amgen's drugs that they had to give me to combat the chemo right they were giving me and i remember just as a brief caveat a couple years ago maybe in 2009 we were out on a training ride up out in the mountains and just you and i riding and there was a guy up ahead who was wearing an amgen cycling kit amgen is a big pharmaceutical company that is uh headquartered locally here uh and wrote up to, you just wrote up to the guy and started chatting with him and I was behind. And then I caught up to you and,

and you, and he had wrote, written off. And you said that guy was the guy who was one of the chief scientists who helped develop the drug that saved my life. And I think it happened to be that day that we were writing, I think was like maybe the one or two year anniversary for you. Like there was something significant about that particular day.

Yeah, we were riding. We caught that little piece of Mulholland leading to that. We call Cancer Alley because that's where I was on my bike when I got the phone call. That's what it was. You said, this is where I got the call that said that I had cancer. And then I met the scientist who invented the car. And that was exactly where we saw that guy who, yeah. It was one of those freaky things that happens in life.

Right. And I talk about all that in the book. And, well, getting back to it, you know, I got cured. You know, the short story is I got cured. The chemo worked. The chemo worked. And my doctor said to me, she says, look, here's what happens now. You still have a small amount of leukemia.

We can't kill this all the way. We don't have a drug to kill it all the way. And this leukemia is going to grow back. And she goes, but the good thing is, is that in history, the drug that kills it, there's three drugs that can kill this type of chemo in history the drug that killed it before will continue to kill it your body works well on the drug so when it comes back we could give you the same drug and she says the beauty of it is when it comes back we could catch it earlier so we can give you just a common cold

version of this drug, and you won't be out of life for six months to where you were. We'll give you the chemo. You'll be missing for a week in action. You'll have another week, and then you'll be fine again. And I said, great, when is this going to come back? She said, well, historically, some people have gone 10 years. historically, you know, some people have gone 10 years. She said, but generally four or five years is about what you're going to get. Right. And, uh, I was like, so great. Every four or five years, I have to like a car getting a tune up, you know, I have to go in for an oil change.

And I said, doc, uh, is there any thing I can do eat, any vitamin I can take or any supplement out there that might help me along? And this is one of the foremost authorities on hematology at Cedars-Sinai. I happened to get the best because my friend who's an oncologist, a radio oncologist, got me the best. I was able to get in with this particular doctor. She said, sugar. Stay away from sugar. And I went, got it. What does that mean?

She goes, stay away from sugar. Those people do better. You know, it shows, you know, we can tell that cancer loves sugar, and it will grow from sugar. And that's when I started my campaign of... No sugar. No sugar. I was always, as you know, you mentioned in your book, I was always, don't eat too much sugar on the ride, guy.

Right. If you're going to have sugar, have it for dessert, or have, you know, but not when you're riding, because it's going to screw up the stomach. Right, but you weren't creating a religion around it, like you are now. No, no. Hashtag NSNG.

Yeah. And by the way, I didn't start that, by the the way you didn't no one of one of my people did so i mean wait a minute they're smarter than me so um i grabbed the no sugar no grain thing and it works it works for me you know it you know i can still have all the vegetables i want i don't need as many fruit as I used to eat. I still have my pears. I love pears. I love apples. I have the occasional orange, you know, but most of my fruit are low glycemic index fruits.

I'm big on strawberries, big on raspberries, big on blueberries. Anything with a berry, I'm big on. The melons have gone out of my life. I can't remember the last time I had melon. So all of those type of fruits have gone away. The fruits that have remained, tomatoes, avocados, that's remained. And instead of just having, you know, I love vegetables. I grew up in a vegetable garden. So there's not too many vegetables i won't eat i'm not crazy about um jeez i think i like them all i mean name a vegetable you don't like is i like them all now yeah did you not like some of them before celery i'm not a celery fan for

some odd reason i don't well my palate has changed so things that I wouldn't say there were vegetables that I hated or had a tremendous dislike for, but celery would be something that's like neutral. I'm not going to go out of my way to eat celery, but now I like celery. Would you put it like in a Vitamix? Oh, yeah. And you like it? You see, to me it screws up the whole… Why?

I don't know. For some reason, Brussels sprouts I love. And you like it. You see, to me, it screws up the whole... Why? I don't know. For some reason, Brussels sprouts I love. That's one that a lot of people don't like. I know. Which I don't get. There's nothing about them to dislike, in my opinion. Well, I used to be so-so on them, but as I've gotten older, I love the Brussels sprout.

Right. But I think in addition to the no sugar thing, and I get that, you know, that makes a lot of sense. It would seem to me, based upon my understanding, that you would want to be eating a very alkaline forming diet. diet that the more alkaline you could make your diet that is creating a an environment uh in your body that is very disease preventive right and has been shown i think unanimously to be helpful in combating uh everything from the flu to more congenital diseases. So, and again, I'm not a doctor, I'm not a nutritionist, do your own research. But when you're eating an alkaline forming diet, it's very anti-inflammatory.

And inflammation has been connected to all sorts of diseases, protracted chronic inflammation in the body as a result of eating a more acidic diet, which is the standard American diet that causes a lot of inflammation, has been linked to leading to all sorts of problems. So it would seem to me that that would be your focus. And a lot of those fruits, and not all fruits are alkaline forming, but a lot of them are. And things that are high in antioxidants, et cetera,

would be, to my thinking, at the top of your list. Yeah, and here's where, you know, my blood gets checked all the time, every four months. And, you know, as you know, I know me, I'll go in before four months just to get it checked. Right. And my blood is healthier now than it's ever been in my life uh my cholesterol is not raised one bit from all the additional

cream and meat and everything else that i eat um my ldls and hdls and all of the stuff in between is healthier now um my triglycerides are off the charts low um you know my blood looks healthier as a matter of fact one of my clients that we openly talk about howie mandel he he's been with me for years and i was always able to keep him on a low roar as far as not getting, he just didn't want to be fat. Howie's 57 now. His wife was always against my diet of eating more fat and more meat and more everything else. Howie is the most neurotic human being on the planet. He was in seeing his cardiologist. He goes, I think, once every two months to see his cardiologist.

I'm not kidding about that. He said, my trainer's been on me about this, you know, eating more meat, and I'm scared that my heart's going to pop and, you know, all those other things that overly neurotic people might think. And his doctor agreed with me. So Howie told, finally told Terry, his wife, hey, go screw yourself. I'm going to try this for a while. And he started doing it, and he ended up losing more weight. Now, he's not in ketosis, by the way. He still enjoys sugar once or twice a week. He'll have a dessert or he'll have a something. But for the most part, every time he goes and gets his blood checked,

his doctor goes, this is the craziest thing. Your triglycerides are lower, and your HDLs and LDLs are better than they've ever been. And this is a guy who was always battling with just being good enough, but when he hears the cardiologist tell him that he's going to live forever, then he starts to buy into it. And now, I don't know if you've seen him lately, the guy is

leaner than he's ever been in his life he's 57 and he looks younger than he's ever looked so yeah you can you know that's you know you were talking earlier about vegans look better than you know the guys eating the high fat but you can always look at the extremes on both ends and those people are going to look better anyway. I think the problem that we're having are the people in between who keep juggling back and forth and never get on one plan. They never become vegans or vegetarians, or they never become, you know, just these carnivores that are eating all of this meat. And that could be where the problem is. But truthfully, I think the problem lies in the fact that we eat too many grains and too many sugars. Somebody tweeted, I think it was Ken for health. Who's always tweeting. That guy tweets a lot. I like him by the way.

He said, how can I be a low fat vegan who doesn't eat sugar or grains? Like, I think he's trying to adopt some kind of hybrid, zinni, rich program. I go, I was going to tweet him back and say, become a breathitarian. Just breathe air for your calories yeah um you know i don't i i don't eat i'm not a sweet tooth i don't eat i really don't eat sugar although i do

juice and i vitamix um but i don't go crazy you leave the you do it all in the vitamix right or do you use a juicer too yeah we just got a new juicer so i've been doing a little bit more juicing but the juicing that i do is really green juice. It's very vegetable based. So it's not high in glycemic acid. I'll put some fruit in it really just to cut the taste. So they're not super, you know, I'm not juicing like, you know, 10 oranges or a bike. And I do have some grains.

I'll eat brown rice. I'll eat, well, quinoa is is a seed but i guess it's still a grain you know i eat things like that but i'm not i'm not eating tons of breakfast cereal and oatmeal and and that's really because i don't prefer it in the morning it feels heavy in my stomach too it is processed you know a lot of the grains are processed so i think i feel that you know i'll eat brown rice pasta which is processed i'll have that for dinner i don't i just don't i don't go overboard on it um but uh i'm not super low carb in my approach uh but i would say that my diet is comprised predominantly of vegetables with some grains in it. And I don't drink sodas or I don't have a sweet tooth.

I don't even have like vegan desserts like cookies and coconut milk ice cream, mainly because I don't really crave it. I'm more of a greasy guy. And that's why you look the way you look. You know, I get this question a lot. The two biggest vegan questions I get is, number one, what about quinoa? Well, the first biggest vegan question I get is, what about Rich Roll? You're saying he doesn't look healthy.

That might be number one. Number two is, what about quinoa? And number three is, if I eat a grain, which grain should I eat? I always tell people rice. And Dr. Lustig, who is the big guy. He's the wheat belly guy? No, no, no. That's different.

That's a different guy. Lustig is the guy who finally has a book out, thank God. He was the guy that had that 89-minute video go viral. It's called Sugar, the Bitter Truth. If you guys want to go watch something really cool, he doesn't tell people not to eat vegetables, by the way, and he doesn't tell people to be in dietary ketosis. He just lays it out.

He's the foremost authority, probably on the planet, in childhood obesity. He's with the UCLA system, and he talks about why Asians are thin and why they're, you know, because the only carb they really eat, the only grain they eat is rice. And rice, if you're going to eat a grain, is the way to go. And Serena, my beautiful girlfriend, she, it's the grain she eats.

You know, she's a big rice person. She'll have the rice pasta. She's a big runner too. She's a chi running coach, right? If you guys are in LA, you need a chi running coach. She's right in there. She's a vegan at heart, by the way. She's a vegan at heart.

Yeah. She really is. And by the way, she was a Playboy centerfold? Well, she shot for Playboy. She shot for Playboy. She shot for Playboy. She shot for Playboy when she did a movie with Bruce Willis. She was in hostage with Bruce Willis. Right.

And she shot for Playboy. She got paid like $80,000. By the way, we know what you get paid for writing books, right? We write books. Yeah. No, all she has to do is show up, get naked, take a picture. $80,000. They never ran the photos. Really?

They never ran them. The movie wasn't as big as they thought it was going to be. And for some reason, they went to a different star at the time. But she is a Bond girl. Yeah, which Bond movie was she in? She was in The World Is Not Enough with that Bond, whoever that Bond was. The good-looking guy. There are very few men walking the planet right now who can say that their girlfriend is a Bond girl.

Yeah, there's just a few of them. Vinny is one. Yeah. That's pretty badass. Well, speaking of women, whenever I see your wife walking around, I go, how the hell does he get her? I mean, Julie's one of the most beautiful women. Speaking of beautiful women. Thank you. Really, how did he get her i mean julie's one of the most beautiful women speaking of beautiful women thank you really how did you get her did you use an ether rag trickery yeah tim ferris trickery yeah it has to be because i'll look at her and i go son of a bitch he must have a cock this just

like a mile long uh-oh we just went uh explicit again again yeah yeah no she uh she's quite the lightning rod on the podcast too or she would have to she's a uh yeah there's a there's some divisiveness over her participation but i stand behind her behind her 100 what's the deal well julie's a strong woman and she speaks her mind and that doesn't always line up with uh with everybody so really i mean you know her yeah that's what i love about i do too i do too and for everybody out there uh if you have an issue with julie uh you know i guess i could say i understand why she's not everyone's cup of tea but i love her and she will remain my co-host on this podcast and if you have an issue with that then i guess you can listen to another podcast and if you're going to listen to another podcast yeah

go listen to vinny uh you know i hope that you got some new subscribers by the way you know what we we had a after i was on this show we had a bump let me give you some kudos by the way good when when i went on you know on lips and know, you can see your bumps and what happens and the whole thing. When I went on Access Hollywood, which is a national program, of course, the very next day I had a huge bump. Right. But the very next day after that, it went right back down to where it was before, just

teetering along. I came on your show. I got a bump. Bump never went away. Yeah, buddy. That's the way it happens. Loyal podcast fans. Thank you. People who listen to podcasts will listen to other podcasts. That's why I want to have you back on my show. Yeah, absolutely. Just to spread the word back in this direction. That's what I said last time to you, which is we have to do what the comedians do. They all do each other's podcasts. Yeah. And I think it all helps all of them grow their

audiences. And I've ended up helps all of them grow their audiences. And I've ended up learning about all sorts because I listened to a lot of those. I ended up learning about a lot of different guys I'd never heard of because I don't go to stand-up shows. I don't know what's going on in comedy, but I find out from those podcasts, which I enjoy listening to. So we have to do the same in the health and fitness world, which is why I had- If you want to come on this Sunday- I had Ben on, then you had Ben on. Now there's Dave Asprey, and who's got the Bulletproof Radio. And we got to get cohesive here.

By the way, you haven't gotten sued yet, have you? No, but they're supposed to sue us all, right? Yeah, I know. I know. If you didn't listen to the first episode when I had Vinny on, we talked about this thing that's happening in podcast right now

with these patent trolls who are latching on to these crazy obscure patents and suing all sorts of people. And it's found its way into the podcast world. Adam Carolla, Leo Laporte, some of these people are getting demand letters and are getting sued because this troll is claiming he owns a patent that has to do with the distribution of content over the internet and uh i don't know i on the one hand i don't want to get sued but on the other hand i'm like well if you got sued then you're then you've arrived right yeah you know yeah i don't think we're big enough they're going after like the top guys of course and um but no we need to have you back on if you want to to come on this Sunday, we can Skype you in.

I think I want to do it in person. There's something about doing it in person. Yeah. You know what I mean? I've done a bunch of Skype ones, and they're all great, but you don't get the same dynamic when you're sitting across from somebody. Let me talk to Anna and see. You'd be running all the way

out to the north valley you know we only do it for about a half an hour but i let you know i'm happy to do it we'll work it out yeah um yeah i'd love to have you on this weekend um what were we talking about you were talking about how you got a bump you got a bump you got a big bump from you man and it was like wow look at this and again you, like when I'm on Jimmy Moore's show, you get that bump and the bump never goes away. So the key to all of us making it here is just going on other podcasts to, you know, just hock our wares and let people decide

if they want to come back and listen or not listen. That's right. That's the cool thing about this. We each have our own little pirate ship, man. We're independent. Yeah. Let's keep it that way. I love it that way.

Right? Me too. Yeah. All right, what's going on with the book? The book is coming out in March. And I'm reading it again right now for the first time in like three or four months. I put it aside because it was getting edited and the whole thing. And literally reading it again, I'm still finding mistakes in it.

The other day, I'm reading through and I went, wait a minute. I got like a passage past a passage. And I went, I said glycogen, but that should have been glucose. And I'm sitting there going, why didn't the editor case this? And I realized the editor is an editor, and he knows nothing about fitness. So that's happening. But the book is—we're excited about the way we're doing it. Did we talk on air as to what we're doing here?

Yeah, a little bit. A little bit. Because I know you and I, when we turned the mics off last time, we talked for another 20 or 30 minutes. So I can't remember what was on mic and what was off. Well, we got into a little bit about how the self-publishing is going to work for you and the launch and all of that. So what are you lining up here? Do you have a date yet when it's going to drop? We don't have an actual date because we just got it back from the editors.

So we're not doing that publish-your-own-book approach where you write a book and just throw it up there and it's going to be a piece of junk. I wanted it to be properly edited, so we did that, and we're punching in pictures here and there again. Now it goes off to, and I'm teaching the audience, but I'm learning this myself. It goes off to a group, and this is the most expensive part. This is costing several thousand dollars. And this is the most expensive part. This is costing several thousand dollars. We're having it formatted for every different type of format it could be on.

Digital, you mean? Yeah, Nook, Kindle, and all of that. And it needs to be formatted in paperback and hardcover. So we're doing all of that up front. So when the book comes out, you will be able to buy it amazon no kindle you know hard cover soft cover whatever you want will be available it's going to all be different prices and of course i'm going to have to do an audio book i don't want to do it myself oh come on the radio host guy and the whole thing i know i know and you could do it for no money you have the studio you got the chat you have to do it listen let me tell you you did it

you did a great job i don't think i'm that good you have to read your own book you'll you'll regret it if you don't and in my case my publisher was sort of discouraging me from doing it and saying you don't want to do it it's a lot of work blah blah blah and uh i kind of back channeled it to make it happen actually twitter played a part in that because Blackstone Audio, who bought the audio book rights to the book, tweeted something about how they had acquired the rights to my book. And I tweeted them back and said, and said something snarky,

like, you're not going to let me read it. Cause my publisher said in the contract, they had no obligation to use me. Yeah. And my editor was like, they probably, you were on a we're on a we got to fast track this thing because this deal just happened the book's coming out they need a pro because they got to bang this thing out we don't have a lot of time so you know just forget it i said okay because i don't know anything better but then i sent blackstone like a sort of half comic, half snarky tweet, like what?

You don't trust me to read my own book or something like that? And then like a day later, I got an email from the guy who runs the company who said, hey, you wanna read this? You can read it if you want. So it's that disconnect between the publishing house and the other people or whatever.

And so long story short, I finagled my way into doing it. And then I thought, and then I went to start recording it. And then I thought, and then I went to start recording it. And then I thought, what have I got myself into? I don't know what I'm doing. I'm out of my depth here. It took a long time sitting in a sweaty,

you know, tiny little booth doing it. But now I'm so glad that I did it. It's like a, it's a once in a lifetime thing, man. You're gonna have some other idiot read your book. I'm not good at library, even though it's my work. But it doesn't matter because you read it. And then literally like i would read a sentence and then every other sentence i'd screw up and you just back it up you have somebody who knows what they're doing and then they go okay say that line again say that line again and then you just get through it man

and when you're on the other side of it you'll be like i can't imagine i was thinking about having someone else read how many hours did you spend in that booth? It was like three or four days of, you know, a good maybe five or six hours in the booth. It was work for sure. But it's, you know, come on, man. It's your book. Oh, fuck, man. Really?

Yeah. And you know what? Here's another reason. Because it creates, it strips away another layer that allows you to more authentically and emotionally connect with your audience and the readers and the people that are interested in you and your story you know what i mean they know they're getting you you're reading it the way that you intended to write it and the way that it's intended to be heard and if you have somebody else read it you're gonna you're gonna listen

to it and go that's not what i meant or that's not the inflection that i was thinking when i wrote that sentence serena put you up to this because no not at all i have a strong opinion on this you know and it is it is work but when you're on trust me a year from now you're gonna think what i couldn't go into a booth for a couple days and read my own book that's not you know when when i when i downloaded your book um to to read to listen to i got the audio i um as soon as you know the audio started man i'm not doing what he did for my book i'm gonna get somebody who knows how to read. No, the first words came, it's like by Rich Rowe, read by Rich Rowe. I went, oh, Jesus Christ.

I got to sit here and listen to this guy for the next hour. And then five minutes in, I was like, of course he should read this book. I mean, you did a great job. And I remember thinking at the time, I can't do this. I can't. He's done a great job. I can't do this because I'm scared I'm going to lose the, you had inflection and you spoke well, and I have this.

Listen, you're the one with the radio background who's been doing, who's done 90 episodes of a podcast. You spent half your day sitting in front of a microphone and you're not going to read your own book. It's like, I'll sit here and go Starbucks. I'm reading off the Starbucks cup right now, folks. I can't read anything. No, it's just like public speaking.

It's almost like, you know, I did it with an, with the, the book was on an iPad that was set up in front of me and you can make the type big. You make it like a teleprompter and just read what all you have to do is read one sentence at a time. And then you can take a breath because the engineer knows how to do all of that. See, that's what I'm worried about. You don't have to read it through and you're breathing and running out of breath. Oh, you see, that's what I was worried about. No, no, no, no.

You're giving me information. So in other words, if I read, let's say my... And I can hook you up with the guy who did mine. He lives out in the valley. He's got a studio in his house and he just bangs out these audio books. If I was reading that over there, it says, rejecting middle age, become one of the world's fit uh you see i screwed it up already

well then you just stop and you back it up and the guy goes no problem just read it again read it again read it again and discovering myself finding altar by ritual i mean i don't know i you can do it i'm not i'm not gonna let you not your book. I'm so self-conscious about it. So. Hook me up with your guy, maybe. I will, for sure. Because, you know, it's hanging over my head like a ton of bricks. Unless you're going to have Howie Mandel read it.

I could do that. I don't know if he'd do a better read than me. No, you got to read your own book. Come on, man. All right, we got to talk about something else or wrap it up because we're losing subscribers by the second here. All the people you got, now they're gone.

They're all leaving. Like, seriously? So what have we learned today about vegans versus carnivores? Right, here's the thing. It's going to be the same thing. Like, now I'm more confused than ever. But here's what, look, Vinny and I, I sound like a brown, a broken record, but you know, we, we have different

perspectives. That doesn't mean that we can't be friends and riding partners. He has his view. I have my view. I feel strongly about, uh, my program and protocol, or I wouldn't have written a book about it. Vinny feels the same way about his, or he wouldn't be about to release a book that he's written about it. And that's the way that it is. But I think that if you look at it like a Venn diagram with a couple overlapping circles, there's quite a bit of overlap in what we're saying. And I think it starts with how we open the podcast, get rid of the sodas, get rid of the processed foods, get rid of the snacks, the sugary stuff, all of that stuff. Uh, in terms of grains, most of the grains that find it their way into the standard American diet are highly refined. What does that mean? It means they're

stripped of any, anything nutritious in them. Uh, if you are not in a position where you're ready to let go of grains completely, then make sure you're, you're eating a whole grain or a sprouted, preferably a sprouted grain. If you want to get super hardcore, you can sprout your own grains in your house. Uh, do you guys, we do some sprouting while I sprout, we sprout things like mung beans. Yeah. You know. Well, it's pretty easy to do that. Yeah, it's easy to do. You just put it in a container and put a little water on it and let it sit there.

Rich, was it Ken who asked a question about how he could get more fat into a vegan diet? I don't think we answered that question. I think he was saying, how do I eat a vegan diet and not eat sugar and not eat grains? Yeah. Yeah, geez. it's almost impossible but right well he's basically what he's saying is i want to take i want to take what vinnie's saying i want to take what rich is saying and combine it into one thing and you could get pretty close basically you could take what rich is saying and just cut the grains out and you're there and what you need to add in is a ton more of vegetable fat meaning well you can eat you can eat uh yeah you can eat avocados you can eat potatoes

you can eat sweet potatoes you can eat lots of beans i eat like lots of legumes you know there's a way to fill that fill that yeah personally i don't think it's really an issue to have some brown rice uh in your diet vinnie may disagree with that mine you know if you're gonna like i said earlier if you're gonna have a grain make sure it's rice you know but don't make it a staple i talk about that in the book because we don't talk about ketosis at all in the book yeah spoiler alert there's nothing about ketosis in a book it's basically no sugar, no grain. But we talk about if you're going to have it, have small amounts.

And I think the way I described it in the book, not I think, I know, because fuck, I wrote the book. When I was a kid, you know, we had a big piece of fish on the plate or a big piece of meat or there was something substantial on the plate. Then my parents always put vegetables, some kind of vegetable on the plate or a big piece of meat or there was something substantial on the plate. Then my parents always put vegetables, some kind of vegetable on the plate. And then if we had pasta or rice, it was just a dollop next to it. It was like this filler. And I remember that if we didn't have that, we had bread with dinner, but it wasn't both. I think what's happened in America, you know, not just America, but all over the world, now you'll go to a restaurant, you'll eat at home, it'll be a big giant pile of pasta. It's just a little tiny meatball or something on the side. You know,

the whole thing is just, you know, reversed itself. And that's where the problem starts. Well, I actually think that it's, I have a different take on that. I think that it's become a giant pork chop or a giant steak with a tiny little salad on the side and maybe, you know, a little couple pieces of sauteed spinach where the meat dish has become the predominant entree as opposed to the side dish. And I think if you look at Asian cultures or you look at the way that we sort of evolved more historically, meat was a treat, right? It was something that was hard to come by and was special. And so you would have a plate that proliferated with vegetables and then then you'd have a little bit of meat, and that was the delicacy.

And I think that that's what's been reversed. Now, you see, I see it differently. Point, counterpoint. I see it as the grains that have taken over the plate. Every time we go anywhere, you know, I see what people are getting on their plates. And it's not a whole lot of meat it's not a whole lot of vegetables there's a big pile of either rice or um or pasta you know go to any restaurants big giant pile of of some kind of grain there and you're right the vegetable does get squeezed out and i think the meat gets squeezed out too

um at least that you know i don't think the meat's getting squeezed. We're eating more meat than ever. I think people are eating meat like crazy. I don't see where they're eating enough. When I go over, what's that restaurant in the corner of the Commons? Not King's, but the other corner. Marmalade.

Marmalade. When I walk into Marmalade, they think I'm a freak because I'll order a hamburger patty or I'll get the fish. And I'll ask them to bring it without the bread if I get the hamburger patty or I'll get a piece of fish. And then I'll say, can you bring me, they'll say two side dishes. I'll say, I like to have broccoli. And they'll say, and which are other side dishes?

I said, I want that to be broccoli too. And they'll say, well, sir, you could get two different side dishes, meaning they're getting ready to push the grain. All I want is more. I want fish and I want vegetables. I don't want grains on my plate. I just want what I want. And that's where the problem starts.

It's almost like they push it on you, not because they're trying to push the cheap stuff. They can't imagine people not eating that stuff well yeah i mean when i go in there for breakfast i order steamed spinach and a side of tomatoes so if you want to see them really look look at you weird yeah yeah and the other thing is the egg white omelet that that's something else that drives me nuts people oh i'm on a diet give me the egg white omelet but geez why would you get rid of the only nutritional part of the egg you know the part that has all of the nutrition they just throw right out and i have a problem where the cholesterol is and cholesterol is not bad for you i know and now we're going around the merry-go-round again

you know that's what i love about coming up here. So did we resolve anything? I don't think, of course not. You know, we just caused a lot more. Now people are really frustrated. By the way, you know, you were talking about Julie a minute ago and someone, you know, people said bad comments. I had Serena on the podcast a couple of weeks ago. And I think I have some of your audience because I never had a bad comment on iTunes. But all of a sudden I got a

couple of threes and fours. And I don't understand the three. Either you like someone or you don't like someone. How do you give them a three? Actually, the threes are the ones that cause me the most consternation because if somebody gives you a one, I just go, well, either, either, you know, they're not hearing what I'm hearing or he's just not the right person for this show. That's fine. And they move on, but a three is sort of like, I kind of like him, but I want him to be, I don't know. Listen, you know, would you write a review to give a guy a three? If you were going to give a review, you would either say, I love this guy or I don't like this guy but the person one of the two people that gave us a three hated serena right and said as much in the comments like uh i like this show but she said something bad about the people at lululemon we had a bad experience at

lululemon and serena was talking about it you know she couldn't have her own opinion and she was how could you say that about those girls and it's's like, well, because she had an opinion. They treated her like crap. They treated me like crap. We talked about it. That's what's cool about these shows. You can walk on and say, hey, I was treated badly at Lululemon. What's wrong with saying that?

Right. Well, I think the great thing about this medium is that we can have these long-winded conversations that maybe at times meander but provides a safe forum for people to express their opinions and the goal is not to necessarily push a certain agenda it's to have an open discourse and a forum for ideas to get bantered about. And that means that ideas are going to get raised and discussed that some people don't agree with or maybe have very strong opinions about one way or the other. And that pushes people's buttons. And I think in Julie's case, she has some strong opinions about certain things that are controversial. What are those things?

No, we're not going to get into all of that because we're going to get dragged down into the mud, but we got, you know, we had, we, you know,

and then there's a lot of people that thought it was fantastic. And then there's some people that weren't so crazy about it and felt compelled to write nasty emails in which they decided they were going to call my wife a bunch of names. And so I don't know how that translates into me being receptive or responsive. Um, I'm fine with having comments up on the site that are critical as long as they're constructive, but when they start to go into the gutter and start to call names, then I'll pull them down. So it's been, it's been interesting navigating that. And I think that also it's, it's somewhat due to the fact that, you know,

the podcast is advertised as a health and fitness podcast and people come and they have an idea, maybe they read my book or they've heard something about me. So they develop an idea of who this person is and what they're going to talk about. And then they project that. And then when the podcast or whatever they're hearing doesn't necessarily match up with that, it causes a reaction. Sometimes it's positive and sometimes it's negative. So it's been interesting to kind of gauge that as we go forward. Well, you know, the cool thing with podcasts is that people can comment and we can read those comments and get an idea you know when i was on terrestrial radio you just didn't know

you know uh people would vote by listening or not listen and you know the ratings would only come out once every three months and you know if you got a bad rating it could have been based on the last show you did and you just have no idea so you lived and died by those ratings right but but for me this is and will always remain an authentic expression of who i am like i don't want to direct or redirect the podcast based upon somebody's you know negative reaction to a particular show or an issue. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, like I just want to have interesting people on and it's not always going to be everybody's cup of tea. And that's totally cool. You know,

I'm not looking to get the most ears I can. I'm just looking to collect an audience that's interested in the things that I'm interested in. And I understand that it's not for everybody, and I'm totally okay with that. But I'm not going to change what I'm doing because, you know, somebody said something that made somebody upset. You know, you really do have to have some tough skin. And I don't have tough skin. You know, I don't like reading those comments. I mean, the response has been overwhelmingly positive. Don't get me wrong. me wrong it's been amazing you know and i love doing this and all of that

but every once in a while you get some negative comments and you go okay well what am i going to do am i going to let that change what i'm doing or do i feel do i have the conviction to stay true to what it is that i'm doing and what i want to be doing. And you have to. I mean, otherwise, what are you doing it for? Right. So you're doing the right thing. Yeah, if you want to water it down, then go get a terrestrial radio job and have a program director tell you what to do.

Oh, God. You have no idea how cool this is over that. No, it's awesome. And I want it to be free and open. And if all I did was have people on that hat that held my point of view, then, then, then what, then what are you doing? You know what I mean? Like, yeah, I think that like, let's say you are a hardcore, uh, Democrat. So you're always going to watch MSNBC or you're a hardcore Republican and you get your

news from Fox News. Well, if all you do is get your news from the source that rubber stamps your point of view, then what are you learning? You know what I mean? Like, I think it's important to get in front, you know, get your eyes and your ears in front of people that have different points of view and try to have an open mind about that and and think creatively think openly and have the spine to come up with your own opinion and perspective on things but you can't do that if all you're doing is listening or watching people that agree with where you're coming from it's interesting you should say that i have a younger brother who is so much of a right-wing wacko that he fell off the wing. He went so far to the right that he fell off. I mean,

that's how right-wing he is. And we were talking about a week ago, and he goes, yeah, I was watching Rachel Maddow the other night. I said, wait a minute, you were watching who? He goes, Rachel Maddow. You know, she's that liberal woman that does the show. And I said, yeah, I know exactly who she is, but why were you? He goes, oh, I watch more of those than I watch, which I thought was an interesting, you know, he's a really smart guy. And I thought that was an interesting perspective because you never hear of white right-wing people saying, I was watching Rachel. And you never hear people on the left going, the other day Rush said.

You never hear that kind of perspective on things. Well, you should hear more of that. You know what I mean? I would trust your perspective and your point of view. Yeah, if you're somebody who's a Fox News guy, and that's where you get your news, and you say, I watch Rachel Maddow every day, I'm more likely to listen to you than if you're just somebody who's only watching Fox News and get 100% of your news from that. And vice versa. I don't care what your political opinion is,

whether you're left or you're right. But that's what we're doing here, and that's what a lot of people... It would be nice if Rachel could be on Rush's show, and Rush could go, but they won't do that. They're going to just spew what they have to spew. Well, every once in a while, Bill Maher tries to get right-wing people on his show, and they get beat up.

Yeah. But you see, it's not about getting them on to whip them. Right. It should be a discussion. And that's where the problem lies. And that's why maybe they're right, because all we're doing here is confusing the crap out of people. Right. But I think that in the confusion people can figure

things out on their own people are not dumb a lot of times people are ignorant to facts and uh the fact that they'll listen to something like this and then derive something from it it's a good thing right i think at least i think that. I think it's empowering. And we're, it's important to not be talking down or condescending to the audience. We're presenting this forum of ideas. Now it's your turn to synthesize that into something that works for you. And again, it's incumbent upon you to do your own research,

search within yourself, you know, what feels good to you and, you know, pursue and blaze your own path yeah you know become a carnivorous vegan and you'll be just fine think vegan think carnivore come on vinnie i'm getting you on this vegan diet if it kills i'm already a vegan how many carnivores you know that have a Vitamix? I'm actually a lot. There are a lot. Yeah, I mean, I live out of a Vitamix. I eat more raw vegetables.

And that confuses the crap out of me. And we keep talking about that. I confuse the crap out of people because I'm a Vitamix guy. I eat a ton of raw vegetables every day. And I think everyone should. For the phytonutrients alone. Yeah, absolutely. I think we did it.

Yeah. We ran out of things to say this week. Yeah. You know what's cool? We didn't even talk about what we were going to talk about or any plan or I don't know. I have no idea. Because you tweeted me and said, what are we going to talk about?

Fuck, just turn the mic on. Yeah, I know. That's all we need. It's the best thing. Well, I can always rely on you. I don't have to do any work when you come in because we can just go. Hopefully, you'll have me back again. I will.

Yeah. And we can confuse people even more. Let's just call it the confusion. Just call it the confusion. The power hour of confusion with Vinny and Rich. Yeah, just call me confusion. We'll leave you worse off than when we started. Yeah.

So if you thought you knew something before, you don't know it now. Right. Cool. All right, man. Did you get everything off your chest? Do you want to get off today? Yeah. And I'm going to talk to Anna.

As a matter of fact, as soon as we cut the mics off, I'll call her and see if we can bring you in Sunday. Sounds good. It'll be fun. Nice to have you. Thanks for coming by again thanks man i appreciate it all right have a good day all right man so uh jai lifestyle i didn't even do an ad jai lifestyle we have a cookbook downloadable e-cookbook it's just 9.99 777 pages of awesomeness tons of vitamix recipes vinny loves his vitamix He loves his raw veggies in the Vitamix. So check that out. I have an athletic recovery supplement product called Jai Repair. It's a tri-blend of

three different plant-based proteins, hemp protein, which is awesome, sprouted brown rice protein, and pea protein. It also has L-glutamine. It has some powerful antioxidants like grape skin extracts and resveratrol. And it has the kicker ingredient, the cordyceps mushrooms extracts, which have been shown to help. Which product is that? It's called Jai Repair. Is that the protein supplement? Yeah, it is. Yeah, that's good stuff. Yeah, it's good. Do you have some? I'll get you some. Rich, I was helping you with an ad. I'm going to send you a case just for saying that, Vinny. Does it have sugar in it? There's just the tiniest amount to cut the flavor, but it's super insignificant.

Okay. So there is. It's not completely sugar-free because you'll see it on the nutrition label.'ll see it on the nutrition label and i've gotten people who have emailed me and said what are you doing there's some there's some fructose in here and it's it's so minute uh that it really is just to uh to um cut the flavor so it's it's not going to cause any sugar problems for you uh and the the kicker ingredient in it cordyceps mushroom extracts, which I have found to be very helpful in boosting my endurance by improving my body's ability to efficiently metabolize, or metabolize is the wrong word, to efficiently utilize oxygen, improving lung efficiency,

et cetera. So we have that. We have a meditation program, Julie's meditation program called Jai Release. We have a vitamin B12 supplement, which is a spray, which is great. I'll get you some of that too, Vinny. I love B12. I'm a big, well, that's the other thing my doctor said, load up on Bs. I never asked her why. She just said, take a B100 every day. So I'm a big, well, that's the other thing my doctor said, load up on Bs. I never asked her why. She just said take a B100 every day. All right. So I'm a big B fan. Cool.

So, yeah, so check out the Jai B12 on Jailifestyle.com. And we're working on some new stuff coming towards you soon. We're designing a cycling kit. It should be pretty cool, a Jailifestyle cycling kit. Some T-shirts for swag. And what else? If you want to support the show, Oh, you know what? If you go on Jai lifestyle.com and you've never been there before you subscribe, you get a free seven recipe download. So there's your added incentive to go and check it out. If you want to support this show, click on the Amazon banner ad on the right-hand side

on the blog or podcast page of richroll.com. It won't cost you a penny extra if you're going to be buying something on Amazon to visit Amazon by clicking on that link first, and it'll throw a few nickels in our cup and keep the bandwidth flowing so I can bring people like Vinny to you. I hope you enjoyed the show. The whole idea behind doing this is to, like I said, broaden people's perspectives, help empower you to think outside the box and become the master of your own physical,

spiritual, and mental domain to reach within your side yourself and unlock that dream that's sitting inside of you and put it into action, put some energy behind it, and become the best, most authentic version of yourself. So I'll be coming back at you soon. Vinny, thanks for joining the show. Thanks for having me.

That's it for today. Peace. Plants. Thank you.