The Rich Roll Podcast - What’s Your North Star? Jon Gordon On The Primacy of Vision & Why Positivity Is Paramount

Episode Date: August 21, 2017

It's never too late to transform your life. I didn't find my place in the world until my mid-40's. Similarly, this week's guest risked his successful but deeply unfulfilling business to pursue his truth as a speaker and author. I'm glad I took that leap of faith. In truth, I can't imagine my life otherwise. Jon Gordon not only feels the same, he believes everyone holds the power to transcend their circumstances and blaze a purposeful life of meaning. This week I sit down the celebrated bestselling author and prolific keynote speaker to discuss what it takes to cultivate that vision and the commitment required to manifest untapped reservoirs of human potential. What holds most people back. And the specific steps required to break the glass ceiling on performance and potential in career, sport and life. A graduate of Cornell University with a masters in teaching from Emory, Jon Gordon has inspired millions of readers and audiences around the world with highly instructive teachings on the themes of leadership, human potential, teamwork and positivity – principles that have been beneficial to many a Fortune 500 company — such as GE, Wells Fargo, State Farm, Campbell Soup, Dell, Publix, and Southwest Airlines — and a litany of professional and collegiate sports teams, including The Los Angeles Dodgers, The Atlanta Falcons, LA Clippers, Miami Heat, Pittsburgh Pirates, Clemson Football and more. Jon also impacts thousands of teachers and students each year through his work with schools, universities like West Point, hospitals and non-profit organizations. Jon has been featured on The Today Show, CNN, CNBC, The Golf Channel, Fox and Friends, in numerous magazines and newspapers such as The Wall Street Journal and The New York Times, and he is the author of an astounding 17 books, including 5 bestsellers: The Energy Bus*,The Carpenter, Training Camp, You Win in the Locker Room First and The Power of Positive Leadership.  This isn't just a conversation about success — it's about finding fulfillment and purpose in every hour of every day. It’s about how he cultivates, nurtures and practices the prolific creativity required to write 17 books. It’s about the core leadership and teamwork principles he teaches that have positively impacted a litany of professional athletes, coaches, organizations, students, teachers, schools, corporations, and non-profits. Enjoy! Rich

So many people reach out to me now and they are full of fear about taking the next step. But I could speak from my own experience. I did it. I lived it. I stepped out of faith. I went through my fear. So I can help that person who was thinking about the next step, or they're worried about that, or I can tell they don't have faith. They're full of fear. And I'll let them know you're full of fear. And if you really, truly want to create your future, you have to embrace that, move through it, take a step of faith, a leap of faith sometimes, to create the life that you want. And if you're not willing to do that, if you're not able to do that, then I don't believe the universe, God, whatever you want to call it, will get behind you to create what you need to create. So I believe God will move heaven and earth when you're on the path and you're

willing to take that leap of faith to go do what you're meant to do. That's John Gordon, this week on The Rich Roll Podcast. The Rich Roll Podcast. Hey, everybody. My name is Rich Roll. I am your host. Welcome or welcome back to the show where each and every week for the last almost five years, I have visited you weekly with long form, at times intense, sometimes emotional, deep dives with some of the world's most interesting, most influential, compelling thought leaders, personalities, paradigm breakers across all categories of health and wellness, fitness, nutrition, entrepreneurship, entertainment, spirituality, mindfulness. And in the case of today's guest, John Gordon, leadership.

John is a really great guy. This is a very special, very cool conversation. John is a really great guy. This is a very special, very cool conversation. But before I get into it, I'm not sure if you noticed, but we actually filmed the last podcast, The Coach's Corner with Chris Houth and Caroline Burkle. It's up on YouTube. If you missed it, I'll put a link in the show notes up to that. Definitely check it out.

It's no biggie. It's hardly Kubrickian in its aesthetic. It's just a single locked off wide shot, a two shot, but it was cool to finally do this. It was actually thrilling. And from what I can gather from all the comments, people are really digging it and wanting me to do more of this. And I would love to do that. There's something really special about being able to see the dynamic unfold. It's not for everyone. Not everybody wants to enjoy the podcast on YouTube, but there are a lot of people out there that get most of their content on YouTube. So it would be really great

to serve the audience in this way. But here's the thing. In order to make this happen, I really need help. I'm just too busy to do all this myself. For this video, we had a photographer with us up in Tahoe, Tomas Jakubowski. That's how you say it, Jakubowski. And then I FedExed the hard drive to my friend, Rhys Robinson, on the East Coast, and he did the edit. And it was fine. It was great, in fact. But in order to really make this work, make this sing, and do this right for the future and for going forward, I need like a studio manager. I need somebody who can help configure, build out, set up this studio space that I have into a proper professional multimedia studio for

filming, not just the podcast, but a wide array of video projects that I would like to execute on everything from vlogging to instructional stuff to motivational stuff. And I need somebody who is not just proficient, but a really talented videographer, shooter, somebody who really knows their way around a camera, lenses, lighting. Maybe you even have your own equipment. It's not a must, but it would be good. A wizard at editing graphics, motion graphics, Photoshop, someone who appreciates and understands great design and aesthetics, somebody who isn't going to just do what I ask, but who has the talent and the creativity and the work ethic and the desire to really own the position and the responsibility who doesn't need

to be micromanaged and can really help elevate my work and the messages that I'm trying to put out into the world. Also, and this is super important, I need somebody who is local. I really don't want to do this remotely. At this point, I'm not sure if it's a full-time job, but it's pretty close. I can definitely put this person to work pretty much every day. And the key thing is that they need to be able to be with me on site in person, I don't know, at least three or four days a week, maybe even more. So if this is you or you know somebody who might be a good fit for this position, I would love to hear from you. So here's what you do. Send an email to info at richroll.com with all your relevant experience, demo reel, whatever. And I look forward to checking it out. Great. I'm

really excited about this because I really do want to step into the video space, but I want to do it properly, correctly, and with the right partner in crime. All right. John Gordon. Like I said, great guy. Great. This is a very fun and engaging conversation. So who is John? John is a prolific keynote speaker, a bestselling author. He's a Cornell grad. We actually found out that we were there at the same time. And he's got a master's in teaching from Emory. This is a guy who has inspired millions of readers and audiences around the world with highly instructive teachings on the themes of leadership, human potential, teamwork, and positivity. Princi principles that have been

very beneficial to many a Fortune 500 company, including GE, Wells Fargo, State Farm, Campbell Soup, Dell, Publix, Southwest Airlines, as well as a litany of professional and collegiate sports teams, including the LA Dodgers, the Atlanta Falcons, the LA Clippers, Miami Heat, Pittsburgh Pirates, Clemson football, on and on and on. John also impacts thousands of teachers and students each year through his work with schools, universities like West Point, hospitals, and nonprofit organizations. He has been featured on the Today Show, CNN, CNBC, the Golf Channel, Fox and Friends, in numerous magazines and newspapers like the Wall Street Journal and the New York Times. And he is the author of an astounding 17 books, which is insane,

including five bestsellers, The Energy Bus, The Carpenter, Training Camp, You Win in the Locker Room First, and The Power of Positive Leadership. I got a few more things I want to say about John before we launch into the conversation, but first. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones

find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care, especially because unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. It's a real problem. A problem I'm now happy and proud to share has been solved by the people at recovery.com, who created an online support portal designed to guide, to support, and empower you to find the ideal level of care tailored to your personal needs. Thank you. more. Navigating their site is simple. Search by insurance coverage, location, treatment type, you name it. Plus, you can read reviews from former patients to help you decide. Whether you're a busy exec, a parent of a struggling teen, or battling addiction yourself, I feel you.

I empathize with you. I really do. And they have treatment options for you. Life in recovery is wonderful and recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. Okay, John Gordon. So this is a conversation about John's path from successful but deeply unfulfilled business person. He had a previous career before he did what he does now, to eventually figuring out how to live his truth, his bliss,

as an author and a speaker. It's about how he cultivates, nurtures, and practices the prolific creativity required to write 17 books. It's about the core leadership and teamwork principles he teaches that have positively impacted the NFL, the NBA, all these college coaches and teams and Fortune 500 companies and school districts and hospitals and nonprofits, on and on and on. It's about the primacy of positivity, how to confront negativity, what he calls energy vampires, and convert it or them to positivity. It's about commitment.

It's about service. It's about giving back. And it's about the importance of culture within an organization. Who are we and what do we stand for? And it's also about the journey to discovering what motivates you. What is your why? You know, we don't get burnt out because of what we do. We get burned out because we forgot why we're doing it. You get that? It's really cool, right? It's a cool idea. All right. So buckle up and let's talk to John. All right, John Gordon in the house.

Great to be here. Long time coming. So awesome to be sitting down with you. Thank you for opening up the Santa Monica annex of the Gordon family domicile so that we could have this conversation. It's funny. domicile so that we could have this conversation. It's funny, as I was driving over here, right when I got out of rehab, my first apartment was literally like two blocks from here,

so back in my old hood. But welcome to L.A., man. What are you guys doing down here? It's great to be here. Well, we always loved L.A. We'd come to visit, and we would stay in this area in a hotel. We'd come for a week at a time to escape the Florida heat. And then spending more time here, we just said, you know, we just love it here. It'd be great to come and spend more time here.

So then we ultimately said, all right, let's start looking for a place. And we found a place, you know, a small condo that we could spend time together here. So we were here for about a month so far. Spent another couple weeks, and then we'll go back to Florida. That's great. So you have two kids. You have a daughter who's interning over at UCLA this summer. Right. She's interning there. My son is a competitive tennis player. So escape the Florida heat, play a little tennis, playing matches out here, hitting with some college guys, having a great experience. What's it like to be your kid? They feel the heat? They have to be high-performing athletes?

How's that work? I think, you know, I do encourage them a lot. There is an expectation of just giving our best, but really don't focus on the outcome a lot. But I do think it's probably something they feel. They know I speak to these teams. They know I work with all these organizations. My daughter went to Clemson because I worked with Clemson football for the past five years.

She would always come up with me to games, sit in Dabo Sweeney's office, hear us talk about excellence and teamwork and building a great team. So I think they're naturally used to it. It's ingrained in them. But I don't want them to feel pressure, but they feel enough pressure on their own. Yeah. I mean, what if one of them said, you know, I don't like sports? My daughter was a lacrosse player and was recruited to play lacrosse. And I played lacrosse in college. So I wanted her to play lacrosse. I mean, I have to admit, I wanted her to play. And she loved it. She got good at it.

Was recruited by some colleges. Ultimately, she said, I don't want to play in college, Dad. It was hard at first. And you said what? I said, what do you mean? I said, what? Be honest. I said, pay for your own college then.

No, I'm just kidding. No, I said, you know what? I want you to go where you want to go. Go to a school that you want to go to where if you were injured and you couldn't play, you would still want to be at that school. Don't go to a school just for lacrosse. She almost went to USC and didn't play well in a tournament. Coach stopped recruiting her.

So it was a blessing in many ways because she ultimately didn't want to play. So we had a conversation halfway through her freshman year of college do you miss lacrosse jade she was not at all that no i said well then you made the right decision yeah good well that's that's good parenting yeah i like that um well it's it's it's cool to talk to you um you know we've got a bunch of mutual uh friends and and colleagues i think you first came across my radar the first time you were on Michael Gervais' podcast. I just love Michael. I just think he's the best. The best.

I think Ryan Holiday is the one that introduced us. I know you went. Did you go surfing with Rob Bell the other day? I did. I went surfing with Rob Bell the other day. A friend just asked. It was me and Rob in the water on our boards, and he's a good surfer. So the wave would come.

He goes like every day. Oh, the wave would come. He'd be like, all right, John, I'm going to take this one in. He'd go in. I'd wait for him to come back. We'd have a great conversation for a little bit. Another wave would come. All right, I'm taking this one in.

And I didn't try to surf as much. I was more trying to work on my paddling, sitting up on a board. I mean, this was my first time. So you don't surf in Florida? No, this was my first time do you sir are you so you don't surf in Florida no this is my first time surfing with Rob Bell so my wife said why would you for the first time surfing ever try to be with Rob Bell for the first time never met him before in person and do that I said that's exactly why you would do it that's the best way to get to know somebody right I mean something

different something ludicrous. I mean, what a great story to tell that, you know, Rob Bell actually was very instrumental in my spiritual journey. Years ago, never met, but I listened to a sermon

he gave about Jesus as a Jewish rabbi, and I grew up Jewish. Right. And so it was really something that resonated with me, so I have followed him ever since,

and I saw that he was surfing, and it was one of the reasons why I was inspired to start surfing. I have two other good friends, Michael Gervais, Yogi Roth, big time surfer. And Brett Hughes, great guy, great surfer. And so Yogi and Brett took me out yesterday. And Michael and I are going to go out sometime this week or next to go surfing. So he's a shredder. Yeah, he's supposedly unbelievable. So for me, it's like LA, something different, take on a new challenge. I'm 46. Don't be stale.

Embrace the process of what surfing will require and do something unique and different. So it was really a cool story to just go out with Rob and have that experience with him. Yeah, he's the best. And we had a great conversation, too. I mean, we just talked about life and spirituality and just the journey. And it was just great.

So it was like spirituality and surfing, being in that moment with nature. It was incredible. Well, your spiritual journey is definitely one of the main things that I want to unpack and get into with you. Oh, great. I think it's really interesting. No, but before I do that, I kind of want to unpack and get into with you. Oh, great. I think it's really interesting. No, but before I do that, I kind of want to step it back a little bit. I mean, you just said you're 46. I'm 50.

You played lacrosse at Cornell. I went to law school at Cornell. So what years were you there? I think we were there at the same time. I was there 89, 90 to 93. Okay. So yeah, we had a little overlap. I graduated law school in 94.

Oh, wow. So we were there for two years at the same time. Did we hang out at the Palms together? I don't know. Like, here's the thing. Like, my universe when I was in law school involved being in the law school building, which was like the shining, you know,

just like you're stuck there, and then making the pilgrimage to rulofs that was about it or the palms but i lived out on taganic on the in a tiny little cabin on the lake oh wow um close to the pines you know the pines yeah so it was the pines and rulof you know it's like basically i lived in rulofs that's the truth of course you know what i mean so i don't know if you ever went in there i've been to rulofs maybe we rub up shoulders but i was out of my mind like i still don't know how i graduated in any event i wasn't a huge drinker but we'd go to rule offs a lot and you're like who's that idiot over the corners probably we if there was a conversation that was it i did pass out once

on a bus and maybe we're on the same bus yeah maybe oh my god woke up on the side of a road by my dorm i mean it was the only time that i ever had that kind of experience where i drank too much in college and it was not good kids do not do this at home but it was it was scary when i woke up the next morning and i don't i didn't remember a thing well i have more uh than my fair share of those kinds of stories but it took me a little while to figure it out. But I think just sort of speaking to your experience as a lacrosse player, I thought a kind of cool sort of launch pad into the subject matter that I'd like to cover with you today

can sort of be encapsulated in that hard hat story that you tell. I love that story. Can you just recount that? Sure. Well, having played at Cornell lacrosse and graduating in 93, there was a guy who played 11 years after I did, and his name was George Morardi. Cornell lacrosse was not a powerhouse when I was there towards the end. Before I got there, a powerhouse. Then we sort of had some down years that I was there,

and they became a powerhouse again after George played at Cornell. George was selected to carry the hard hat as a freshman. The new coaches who took over the program, Dave Petromala, Jeff Tambroni, they gave a hard hat to the hardest working, most selfless, loyal freshman on the team. George was selected to carry that hard hat because he embodied those characteristics. So as a freshman, he carried it. Now as a senior, he's a captain of the team. George was selected to carry that hard hat because he embodied those characteristics. So as a freshman, he carried it. Now as a senior,

he's a captain of the team. And George was just an incredible human being, very selfless, served his team. He was always the last guy to leave the locker room because he would always clean up

after everyone left. He would clean up and then he would give freshmen ride home, back to their dorms, back to North Campus because it was a far walk and very cold, as you remember, in Ithaca, and these young kids would need a drive home.

So he would drive them home and encourage them. And so he was this kind of guy that was always there for his team, always there to help them. And when he graduated, his plan was to go to teach for America in Sioux Falls, South Dakota, the Pine Ridge Reservation, and help the poorest of the poor, to help people who had nothing. This was a kid who came from a very privileged background. His great-grandfather was Chef Boyardee, so George Boyardee, Chef Boyardee. But he drove a beat-up Jeep, wore a hoodie every day, the same clothes. You would have never known that he was a kid from a privileged background

because he never wanted any of the trappings. He was not that kind of person. He was a very blue-collar kind of kid. And so here was a kid who was going to sacrifice and after college go help that. Well, senior year, early in the season, they're playing Binghamton, and George jumps in front of a shot, and he gets hit in the chest with the ball, and he dies on the field. That's unbelievable.

Unbelievable. I didn't know that that happened. Is that a, I mean, that can't happen that often. That doesn't happen that often. And 22 years old, hit in the chest, dies on the field. The trainer that went out to save him was my trainer, Jim Case. And he just said it was obviously the most painful, challenging moment of his life. His parents weren't at the game.

They'd been to every game. And for some reason, they weren't at that game. So as a team, after George's death, they were obviously young men, devastated, traumatic experience. They were deciding whether they should play the season or not. And they got together and they decided, you know what? We're going to play. We're not going to give up on the season. We're going to play. But we're not going to play to win for George. We're going to play to honor him. We're going to play to play the way he would play and to honor his memory. And from that moment on, they became like this unbelievable team

that just played with such selflessness, with sacrifice and service of each other, with love for each other, hardworking, going after the ground balls, doing whatever it takes to help your team win. It wasn't about yourself because George was never about himself. It was always about others. They actually had something they called Boyardee stats,

which were just like ground balls, hustle points. It wasn't about scoring or assists. It was about all these intangible things that were Boyardee stats. They called Schultz-Caulfield, George's house, the game George's house. Wow, do they still call it that to this day? They do, to this day. And they kept his locker the same it's still there like all his stuff is still in his locker so his locker you you walk in that locker room and you see george's locker there to this day they became this powerhouse

program after that so you have this guy who sort of exudes the ideals of the optimal teammate, right? He's got sportsmanship. He's got the work ethic. He has that, you know, sort of spirit that transcends his own personality. of his legacy and the long-term impact on the team and its success and the sort of unity that that inspired, like what are the pillars or wisdom that you extract from that? Well, one thing that's really important to notice is that these men who were his teammates and they were young men then, these men now are around 32, 33, 34 years old,

they still live their lives based on him. They live their lives based on the kind of teammate and the kind of person he was. And they're asking themselves every day, would George be proud of me? Would George be doing this and that? They literally are living their lives and they ask themselves all the time that question. I was blown away interviewing these guys. It just shows the impact that this 22-year-old had. Even when he was 19, he had this impact on these men. So what can we extrapolate? Well, one,

it's never about yourself. It's always about others because George always wanted to play for his team and make his team better. He never wanted recognition. So for one, I think it's about to be a great teammate. We're so focused on ourselves in today's culture that truly being a great teammate is not about me. It's not pointing to yourself after your score. It's not being the superstar on ESPN. It's about helping others and being someone who is there for your team and helping your team get better. So I think, one, that's a big part of being a great teammate.

Yeah, I think also ensuring that that legacy remains relevant, I think takes work and a forethought on behalf of the coaching staff and, you know, the players themselves. I mean, you know, as you were counting that, I'm sort of thinking back. When I swam Stanford in the late 80s, we had our version of that.

It was the red sweatpants. And it was started by this guy jim reynolds we called him milk and jimmy and he just was everything that you wanted your teammate to be you know what i mean he wasn't the fastest he wasn't the most talented but he was all about team and he was there for every member of the team and he was sort of a symbol of unity and teammanship and all this sort of thing and this, like every single day he would wear the red, the same red sweatpants every day. And so when he graduated,

a tradition started where those were passed on each year to the person who, who sort of embodied those ideals. And I think like the third or fourth year, I was lucky enough to wear those sweatpants, probably the greatest honor in my sporting career. Cause I, I was like a bench warmer at Stanford. And, and then it, it lived on for many years, but at some point it kind of fell away, right? Like, um, there was a, there was a change

in the coaching regime, et cetera. I don't know exactly what happened cause I wasn't there, but, but also, you know, the program went from being NCAA Division I champions every year to now fighting for third or fourth or fifth or sixth. And our coach at the time was a very flawed individual. And I have a lot of issues with his coaching style. But one thing that he did that I think was really laudable was that he understood that our success was directly related to the extent to which the team was unified. And that that unification process began from the top down, not just with his example as a coach, but with the leaders on the team, and that they had to shoulder that responsibility, that it couldn't just be all on the coach.

And with that would come a cohesion that would transfer into the you know the team operating as a unit which is a little bit different in swimming because it's sort of an individual sport but it's also a team sport you do have to work together but it's about individual performances but I think the principle remains the same yeah instead of focusing on me we focus on we and even with individual sports I work with a lot of golf teams very individually focused some swim teams there has to be this mindset of yes I want to be my best for me but I also want to help my team be their best and when someone else is swimming my attitudes contagious my energy is contagious so if I'm encouraging my teammate if I'm challenging my teammate

if I'm pushing in teammate, if I'm doing everything I can to help that person get better, you know what happens in the process? I get better. And so that's the great thing about the way this works is the more you actually give to your teammates and help them become the best they can be, you actually grow and improve as well. You heard of Schwenader, right? The Schwenader story? No, I don't know that one. Schwenader was recruited by John Wooden to play at UCLA. He was 6'10", played at Cypress Community College. And John said, hey, I want you to come here to play at UCLA.

But if you come here, you're not going to play that much. Because we have the best center in the world in Bill Walton. Yeah, I do know this story, but keep going. Yeah, but we want you to make Bill Walton better. So will you do that? So Swen Nader goes to UCLA, and every day in practice,

he's pushing Bill Walton to get better. He doesn't play much, but he's battling Bill Walton in practice. That's his job. He's the only person in NBA history never to have started a college game, but be drafted in the first round of the NBA. 12-year NBA career, rookie of the year. Yeah, because he's sharpening his tool every single day against the best in the business. And he's making Bill Walton better, but he gets better in the process. Right.

You got to have a long-term view though. You do. And that's tough for an athlete. You know, that's got, that takes a lot of self-discipline. It does. And I think it takes a sacrifice of your ego to say, yeah, I'm going to give up my ego. See, I believe everyone should want to be great. We all want to be great.

You have to have an ego to want to be great. We all want to be great. You have to have an ego to want to be great. But I think ultimately you have to give up your ego, serve others in order to be great. Right. You can even do that selfishly. I'm going to selfishly relinquish my ego because it's in my best interest. Right. I don't know. Yeah. It's like takes a little mental hijinks, I think. But yeah, I like that. All right. So you work with all these. I mean, the number of teams and athletes that you've worked with is insane. Like all these incredible collegiate and professional programs, NFL, NBA. And, you know, you're wearing a Dodgers t-shirt. I know you work with the Dodgers.

So when you go like when you go into these teams, i assume they invite you in and then you go in like what's the deal like what are you telling them what are you telling them are you sitting them down and like how does it work so usually the coach will read one of my books and that's why they reach out like dave roberts with the dodgers i never met dave but he read my book you win in the locker room first that i wrote with mike smith and it's the seven c's to build a winning team so when Mike and I wrote this book I had no idea that like a lot of coaches were gonna read it and want to then do more with it but Dave read it and reached out called one of my team members and they started

talking and he's like hey we want to have him at spring training he could stay with me and so I go out there I stayed with Dave stayed at Dave's place, spring training. I go and speak to the team but beforehand, I met with Dave in his office and we just talk. We talk leadership. We talk challenges.

We talk some of the C's and we just talk principles. A couple coaches will come in. I'll meet the coaches. We'll talk and then I go speak to the team and Dave and I already talked about, okay, let's talk about the seven Cs.

Let's talk about how to build a connected team. You just talked about cohesion earlier. How can we be more connected? How can they be more cohesive to stay strong as a team throughout the season? And that was my talk, the seven Cs to build a winning team to the team. But each team is different.

Might be energy bus or it might be training camp or the power of positive leadership. Recently, coaches have wanted me to speak on that. So it's usually some set of principles and i'll pick three to five that i'll talk about with the team but it's things that i want to stick you know it's not just a motivational talk or a rah-rah do you do like a forensic analysis of what's functioning well and what's not functioning well on the team like a consultant would do at a business and say here's what's not working and here's where i can like laser in and perhaps provide some value. A lot of times I'm speaking at spring training or training camp and training camp,

speaking at spring training or training camp. So it's always at the beginning usually. And usually it's a new season, a new team, different dynamic. Now the coach will talk about what's happened in the past or what they're struggling with or what messages we want to get across. So I don't really do a lot of forensic analysis like that, but it's more like, okay, what are your struggles? What are your challenges? And what are some of the core messages that we need to talk about?

Right. Like with the Dodgers, it was like, okay, in years past, you would get to this level you get to the playoffs but you wouldn't push through to the next round why they had the talent but team beats talent when talent isn't a team right and you you you would have i would imagine you have uh a receptive audience in the coach that invites you like this guy wants wants you, he, you know, he, he, he wants to hear what you have to say. I would imagine that's not always the case with the players. Like the coach comes in, introduces you and they're like, probably sometimes they're

stoked. And other times they're like, who's this guy? Like, why do I have to listen to him? And, and I think it's a, I would imagine that it's a time to tough audience because, you know, you mentioned ego earlier. It's like these guys are the best there is, right? They got big egos, vulnerability or being open or talking about your weaknesses, especially in front of the coaching staff and your teammates. When a lot of these guys are just, you know, they just want to make sure they're not getting cut, right? Like what are they going to be doing next week and next month? That's a challenge. It's one of the biggest challenges there is in the world of speaking.

Rob Bell and I were talking about that because he's spoken to some sports teams as well at the NFL level. Hardest audience you'll ever find. Now, you have this coach that invites you. You just nailed it on the head, but there are some guys that are like, okay, another talk. Who's here talking today? What is he talking about? But my job is to provide value. My job is to say something that can help them be better, that can make them better. They may not like three

or four things, but maybe they'll just like one thing that I say. And that's my goal is that if I could just say one thing that gets their attention, that will help them get to the next level. Coaches always tell me, John, if you can't provide value to these guys, they're going to tune you out. And that goes for coaching. A lot of coaches better know their stuff because as a coach, if you can't help the player improve,

then they're not going to listen to you. Then don't waste their time because they're the best and they want to get better. So my thing is, what can I do to help them get better? I spoke to the Oklahoma City Thunder this year and the Miami Heat, right?

NBA. Only 10 to 12 guys in a room. That was even harder than an NFL team where there's 50 to 7. You could read everyone's facial expression. I'm sitting there and I'm looking and they're right there. I mean, they're right there. And Pat Riley sat in on my talk as well, which was really intimidating to the heat. Yeah, I would imagine. So they're right there and you're looking at them. So my thing is what I did for spring training this year was three keys to having a great season. Like these are the three keys that I have found over the years will help you have a great season if you do these three things. Which are what? One was we stay positive because everyone's positive in spring training or training camp. You're undefeated. But how will we stay positive when we face adversity and challenges?

How will we stay positive as a team and optimistic, believing that our best days are ahead of us, even though we may have just had some losses, even though we just had some challenges? Very prophetic with the Heat, because they had a horrible first half of the season, but they stayed positive. Next one, stay connected.

Got to stay connected as a team. Teams start to break down in the course of the season. You can see who's given up, who doesn't really care about their teammates, who's basically already thinking about next season, their contract, and not really bought into the team. They're not engaged. They're not all in. So staying connected is key. And then the third one is stay the course. Grit. We don't create outside in. We create inside out. The power of inside out versus outside in.

Don't look at the outside. Don't look at media. Don't look at the noise. Just focus on what you can do each day to be your best and knowing that you create inside out. You're the ultimate inside out, right, athlete? Not the ultimate. But what you've created on the outside

is everything that you've created on the outside is everything that you've done on the inside yeah i mean that's that's the key to long-term success you know it's it's much harder work yeah you know sometimes you got to be in enough pain to go that route because it's you're much more convenient to go from the outside in yes uh and that kind of brings me to the next you know sort, sort of line of questioning, which is, you're a very positive guy. I know you've, you know, you've evolved into that. You haven't always been that person. But when you're talking about positivity, talking about grit, talking about leadership, like, these are characteristics that in certain people are just

baked in, right? And you can get up in front of a group of people and try to inspire them or incite them. But ultimately, you know, how do you traverse that bridge from inspiration or incitement into actual action? And even beyond that into, you know, lasting, persistent, consistent action that really is going to be the difference maker in terms of how a season's going to go. Yeah. I think there are those players that tune you out and could care less that you're there, but then there are those that come up to you afterwards and say, I needed to hear that. Thank you. And then there are some that say, hey, can I keep in touch with you? And they give you their cell number and I give them mine and we stay in touch and there have been a few and it's really cool when when they call you you're laying in bed one night and you get a text you get a text you get a text and can't say who they are

but I've reached out to them I've talked to them and encouraged them and you take inspiration and you move into principle. You move into embodiment. You move into living it and breathing it. And you start to see the impact it has. One of the most important things that you can do, and it may sound simple, but it's not complicated. If an athlete can stay positive and deal with their adversity and deal with their pain and their negativity and really work through that, but stay positive and optimistic and not get caught up in the rut and all the stuff that's coming their way, that's 90% of the challenge they face. So that's a big part of what I help them do in talking to them and encouraging them along the way.

It's that simple. I think that these ideas, which are really kind of mindsets, are actually their actions, their practices, whether it's gratitude, positivity. There's a saying in recovery, like, act as if, or like, fake it's gratitude, positivity, you know, there's a saying in, in recovery, like act as if, you know, or like fake it till you make it. Like if you're, if you're somebody who's not easily, you know, sort of prone to being in an optimistic, positive mindset, if you start sort of acting that way, even though maybe that's not how you feel, is it your opinion that you can then sort of foster that in yourself? Or what is the, how do you traverse from being, you know, sort of a that in yourself or what is the how do you traverse from

being you know sort of a gloomy person into somebody who's more positive and optimistic well they've done studies where actually people who may be more naturally negative and they try to put on a fake smile those people trying to put on a fake smile actually are producing stress hormones it actually makes it worse i believe it always comes from the heart. It has to come from the heart. You can't do it because the book says so. Well, you got to care, right? And that's a cornerstone thing

that kind of infuses all of your books and your teachings. But like, how do you get some, like first you got to care and then everything kind of flows from there. Is that an accurate kind of thing? How do you get somebody to care? Like if that guy's stonewalling you, there's only so much you can do right that person's not going to change yeah that person's not going to improve their life but i don't know

if it's fake it till you make it i know that as we strive to be a more positive person and we truly start to to live it and act upon it we start to see that fruit in our lives. For me, it was taking walks of gratitude every day. So taking a thank you walk. So while you're walking, you just say what you're thankful for, because you can't be stressed and thankful at the same time. I was celebrating my successes every night. So instead of a gratitude journal, I had a success journal. What was the one great thing that happened that day so focusing on these little positive things from from action but going back we know that energy creates matter energy always creates matter it always must be an energetic thing before it's a physical thing so that guides a lot of my thinking so I always believe that it

must come from spirit or consciousness before it's manifested in the physical reality outside out it's the inside out it's manifested in the physical reality. Yeah, that's the inside out thing. It's the inside out. It's also, again, spirit creates the physical reality. So a lot of times it's a shift in perspective. We're shifting people's perspective from what they believe is possible to now what they know is possible or from negative to positive. Again, we're putting words to feelings that it's hard to really sometimes quantify

and put words to feelings that it's hard to really sometimes quantify and put words to, but it's really this perspective of my best days aren't behind me, they're ahead of me. It's a perspective of moving from faith instead of fear, a perspective that says, oh, that's not a challenge, that's an opportunity. By what you do, you've said, you know what, they say it's impossible. No, I believe it's possible, and somehow I'm going to do it. And so we're always defining the possible. Steve Jobs did in the business world of what was possible that other people said was impossible. So for me, it's about shifting their perspective, which is a mindset, but it's also a heart thing.

And then it's also, if you can get someone to focus on love instead of fear, they'll perform at a higher level. If they start loving the work they do, loving playing, loving their teammates, they're going to perform at a higher level. So instead of fear, we bring forth love. Yeah, I like that. And I think kind of behind that, you know, behind the curtain of that, beneath another layer of that is, you know, is honesty, right? Like there has to be a level of self-honesty. There has to be a willingness to, you know, wrestle with yourself and be objective with who you are when you're looking in the mirror and, you know, in the middle of the night. And that requires a certain amount of courage also. I think it goes back to, you know, the thing I mentioned earlier where you

have like, you know, these alpha male athletes, best in the business, like that vulnerability is, is tough to get to, right? Like, I believe that that vulnerability is the, is sort of embracing that, that vulnerability and getting comfortable with it is the path to ultimate success. I think that's a launch pad, but it's gotta be tough to get those guys to that place, right? It is. I've noticed that you were asking earlier about the teams and their receptivity. The teams that have read my books first before I get there are the most receptive. Right. Because they've experienced something I've written, something that touches their heart, hopefully. Martin in training camp, very vulnerable. Energy Bus, George and Joy is the mother

that they really seem to connect with. She's got this big energy and great personality, but she's sharing this love, and she's taking George on a ride to help him change his life. So I think the more they've read the stories, I get this great connection with them when they've read the books.

Yeah, and they are stories. They're stories. I mean, you've done something very unique in publishing in that most of your books are these allegories, which is not something a lot of people are doing. There are modern day fables where you're really taking the reader on this hero's journey where they can emotionally connect with the protagonist and really understand the struggle and the payoff at the end. And you've written like 17 books.

You're five years younger than me, man. I was like, how did you do that? It's crazy, the prolific output is unbelievable. You're just channeling some kind of ethereal source matter right to the page. That's really it. I mean, it's like every book I write takes about three and a half weeks to write. That's crazy. And I, that's, ask my wife.

Do you just go into the hole and? She calls it my mad scientist stage. So it's always around December, early to mid-December, and I start writing. I have the vision of what I'm going to write. It's got the framework, but that's it. And the vision comes from where? Spiritual. It just comes. I just have a vision of what I'm supposed to write. For me, I say, for me, I say, yeah, the walks. And a lot of times on the walks, walking on the beach, walking on the street, and literally I'll get an idea almost always on those walks.

But one book I haven't written yet, I had that vision nine years ago. I haven't written it yet, but I have this vision for this book. It's going to be just crazy, but I've had a vision for it, and I'm just waiting to write it. So I've had a vision before I write it. So then I sit down, and I have to start. And that's always the hardest part is just to sit down and actually start writing the book. Probably when you have to go out and train.

Or maybe the first mile is always the hardest. So it's getting started. And then after I get started, then it just starts to flow. And once the characters start speaking and have a voice, then it starts to write itself. When I wrote The Carpenter, I had the beginning, which came to me on a walk, but I didn't have the end. And I didn't know what the end was going to be. And I even called my publisher and said,

I don't have an ending. And we went through a couple. I'm like, oh, maybe that will work. Maybe it won't. Walk onto the beach one day, boom, it came to me. To see how the beginning and the end connected and both came to me on these walks, I knew it

wasn't for me yeah you got to open the channel right you're the conduit for this and and and you know that's a i would imagine a meditative practice for you right i would say writing is probably the most spiritual experience that i'm having when i'm writing a book it's the most painful at times but just sitting down and writing and and really being open to what's coming through yeah it's really powerful and I always say I'm not the author I'm just the pen and I'm just here writing what I'm meant to write and I don't want to take credit I give a lot of charity a lot of a lot of the royalties to charity because I feel like I need I should and

I need to because I can't take it all I need to give it away because it's a gift. But you didn't graduate from Cornell and just start writing books, right? So let's step it back because the origin story is fascinating. And I think it dovetails nicely into kind of this spiritual odyssey that you've been on. So you graduated from Cornell. You're this lacrosse player. Were you in the hotel management school? No, I was actually in government economics, human ecology.

But you went into the restaurant business. At 24. So I went to Atlanta, just drove down there with a friend from high school, just randomly just went down there, I think to meet my wife because I met my wife there. But was walking around Buckhead and met a guy outside who was the owner of a new bar that just opened in Buckhead, and I asked him if I could have a bartending job.

I was just bold enough to ask. He said, have you bartended before? I said, yes, I have. I never bartended. So they gave me a shot, started bartending there while I was getting my master's in teaching at Emory. So I'm bartending, stayed up till 6 at night go to school the next day to you know go to teach and get my masters in teaching so

I was doing all doing all those kind of things first job I ever had that when I moved to Atlanta was to work for a school for emotionally disturbed children so I had that job so looking back that was sort of a strange journey of education teaching bart, bartending. Then I wound up opening up my own place at 24. Met my wife three weeks after we opened up the place. She was walking down the street, saw her, and fell in love. Was it a bar or a restaurant?

It was a bar-restaurant. It was like a Roloff's. It was a beautiful wood bar, and it was a fine restaurant. But then we got rid of the restaurant stuff because we knew we weren't good restaurant people, and we put in pizza ovens, and we made great pizza. Uh-huh. What was it called?

Park Bench. Park Bench. All right. It's called Park Bench. So you're in the bar restaurant business. Yeah. And it's working, right? I'm 24, and I'm making a good amount of money.

I had some partners, but we're doing great. I'm like, wow, this is great. But I knew I didn't want to be in the bar restaurant business. For me, it wasn't about the bar restaurant. I had bigger things I wanted to do. Started a nonprofit organization called the Phoenix Organization, and we raised money for youth-focused charities. So I would meet all these people at the bar. I'm 24, 25, 26 at the time, and I'm getting all these young people involved to start volunteering and we would raise money for different charities never took a dime gave everything to charity it was

became very well known very quickly like all the charity work we're doing the volunteer project so I'd meet someone who was drunk on a Friday hey you want to volunteer on Sunday you know it oh yeah sometimes they show up sometimes exactly right but we did that and uh that got me involved in the city and then i would meet different politicians who wanted to speak to the phoenix organizations at one of our meetings so then i got involved in politics and i ran for city council of atlanta and i walked door to door to 7 000 houses lost that was hard because i was a government economics major i thought i was going to go into politics is That's what I really wanted to do. You still can.

Maybe one day. We need to hopefully change things with positive leadership. And maybe one day I will. It's always in the back of my mind, but you don't know if you want to put your family through that and even if you want to go through that, or is it even what i'm meant to do right but if i was meant to do it if i felt the call i'd go do it but during this period

of time you're doing well you're making money yeah you got your you know you've got this profile as a young person in in atlanta i mean is there a nagging sense that you know despite the success that this really isn't you know the shoe that is custom built to fit your foot at that point no at that point I'm moving and shaking I'm doing the Phoenix I'm having this bar I'm like things are great my wife and I have two children two small children I went to go work for a dot-com because I wanted to make my my gazillions but I was gonna make a fortune director of business development I actually found some of the investors because I wanted to make my gazillions. I thought I was going to make a fortune. Director of Business Development.

I actually found some of the investors who invested in the dot-com. So I thought this was going to be my path. And it was at that point I started to feel like there was something more when I did that because now I'm 28, 29. I'm now working for a dot-com. I have bosses. I'm not doing my own thing anymore. I'm not running a bosses. I'm not doing my own thing anymore. I'm not running a restaurant.

I'm not doing the Phoenix as much because we had kids, so someone else took over the Phoenix. So at that point, I started to feel a little lost and like I needed to do my own thing. We decided to move to Jacksonville. So now we moved to Jacksonville,

sold my restaurants back to my partners my shares they were stealing from me so that's one of the things that happened so I basically took a chunk of money

from them not a lot I should have got a lot more and that's a lesson for people like I should have got a lot more could have sued could have went the legal route I took what they gave me

a fourth of what I should have gotten and just left. It was $100,000. Just took that, and we moved to Jacksonville. We sold our house. We bought a house. I have this $100,000. I'm now working for the dot-com

because my boss said I can go live out of Jacksonville. I needed to and just fly wherever from there. And that's when my life started to fall apart because now we're in Jacksonville. Dot-s not going great now I'm worried about the future two small children what am I gonna do my wife and I are fighting all the time I'm miserable I'm negative I'm unhappy I'm making her miserable that's when everything fell apart. Not a lot of positivity? No not a lot of positivity at all. No. Yeah, that's the guy that I'm not proud of.

I wasn't abusive or anything like that. I was just a miserable, negative, fearful, unhappy person. I think, unfortunately, that's the condition that a lot of people find themselves in, if not most people. Just trying to make a living, trying to do what's right put food on the table not totally satisfied in their career but not really sure there's any other options or if anything else out there would even fill that void and so you just live your life and you go about your day and nothing changes and you develop thick skin and just sort of tolerate it

and you kind of bottle up that resentment or dissatisfaction and occasionally it comes out sideways and you know you get you end up in relationship i mean you know what i mean right so but why do some make the change like you did and i did and why do some don't that's what i i wonder i think it's pain you know i told gervais this i heard that i heard you say pain pains you know when the pain is is enough then you take the action you don't have to be in pain to make that change but it makes it a lot easier when you feel like your back is all the way up against the wall but some take the pain they escape yeah well i tried that too right you know what i mean and i played that out until that didn't work anymore

and just created more pain. Right. I was looking for all kinds of different ways of dealing with it in unproductive ways. And the last thing I wanted to do was to do it the hard way. But I exploited every other option until that was the only one that was left. So how did that work for you?

For me, it was pain. And I remember my wife threatened to leave me. She said, I love you, but I'm not going to spend my life with someone who makes me so miserable. You better change or we're over. I may leave right now. I'm like, no, no, no, don't, don't leave. No, I got my hands and knees. And at the time, were you that your your marriage was teetering

on that level or was that or because a lot of guys are just like we're checked out man we're like I thought it was all I thought it was all right what do you mean you're leaving this is awesome it's usually you know that the female partner who's like hey man this ain't going so good I knew it was bad we were fighting a a lot, and it was just not good. So I wasn't surprised, but the reality of her words hit me like a ton of bricks. And that was a huge moment where I was like, no, I do not want her to leave. I don't want to lose her. I'll do whatever it takes, I said, and I'll change.

So that pain, that fight, was one of the worst moments in my life, but it also led to the best of what I get to do now. Because I remember saying, what am I born to do? Why am I here? I know I'm here for a reason. Why am I so miserable? And I asked that question. Yeah, two observations on that i mean the first is we're so quick to judge things that happen to us as bad or good and you know i i look at so many things that i so many times where i thought this is the biggest disaster ever and they become you know the foundation for the greatest thing that ever happened to you so you know i always say embrace those moments and understand that those are your, those are your divine opportunities. If you're paying attention, if you're awake enough to recognize them and have that sort of mental acuity and awareness to understand that this is

an opportunity. And the second thing is, is the action that was taken, right? Because a lot of people could have undergone that and sunk lower or, you know, said F you or, you know, any number of different things. So when you said, okay, I'll do whatever it takes, like, what did that mean? Like, what did that look like? What were the actions that you took? Well, one, what you said, I just love what you said, because Gallup asked people to identify the worst event in their life and the best. And they found an 80% correlation between the two. Yeah.

And the best, and they found an 80% correlation between the two. Yeah. That somehow the worst event will lead to the best if you're willing to change, if you're willing to move forward. Well, I also think culturally we're kind of set up to perceive, to like avoid pain, avoid failure. If something like that happens to you, you failed, you're not a good person or whatever. And that's just wrong. You know life. Stuff happens. And the more we can reserve that kind of judgment over these things and feel like, oh, I'm not playing the game right because I'm having relationship issues or financial issues, I think leads people astray rather than forward. You nailed it. I believe that, and you see it,

that every dysfunction you can see in society and people's personal dysfunction can be traced back to the fact that they want to escape and they don't want to deal with pain. They want to avoid pain, whether it's drug addiction, drinking, whether it's pornography, whether it's video game addiction,

whatever it may be, it's because we don't want to feel. And we're encouraged to escape right the movies go to you know it's like everywhere you look we're bombarded with messaging that wants us to escape that says a good life is a life of escape a life of luxury a life of you know um luxuriating and like avoiding difficult situations and pain and challenge. And, you know, you and I, we, you know, every guest I've ever had on this podcast will tell you that the path to leading a really fulfilling life is one of, you know, welcoming those hardships. I just had a guest on the show the other day, this woman, Samantha Gash, unbelievable ultra runner, former lawyer. She just ran across India. She's done all these incredible things in her life. And she told me something interesting I'd never heard, which is,

I think she said, Jason, you were there. The root of the word passion, which comes from, did you say the ancient Greek? Yeah, the Latin root is to suffer, right? And the inextricable link between these two things. Like if you want to live passionately, then you have to welcome the suffering. That these two things, it's kind of like what you just said, that the worst thing and the best thing are so closely aligned. It's duality. Everything is duality. So there's no suffering without love.

We suffer because we love. So you have to have one with the other. You get them both. So we want to avoid pain. I always say don't avoid the pain. Stay in the game. Embrace the pain. My son is a classic example of that.

He doesn't want to feel that pain. So he does escape various ways with video games or whether it's social media, whether it's he loves comics, anime. And so I'll see him reading these anime just to escape life. And it's like, no, no, feel it. So our big thing is we talk about it. Feel it.

It's okay to feel it. Human beings are meant to feel. You go see a doctor, you get surgery, you get an injury, and what do they do right away? They prescribe you pain pills. And they say, stay ahead of the pain. What's wrong with feeling pain? We're meant to feel it. We're meant to be human. Don't run from it. Embrace it. Keep moving forward. Yeah. And I think emotional pain, acute emotional pain, can give you the sense that it's going to kill you. It can be so powerful that you actually think you're going to die.

Yes. You will do anything to get out of it. Great point. Drugs, alcohol, sex, porn, whatever. But it's only by staying in it that you realize there's one thing that will happen for sure and that that feeling will change it will morph and and you will still be breathing when that happens and with that comes experience that gives you the confidence uh and the wherewithal to then navigate the next difficult situation that comes along it's just it's like being in the gym. It's like doing push-ups, but for your emotional body.

Yeah, it's the ebb and flow of life. My wife wanted me to go on antidepressants because I was depressed. And I said, no, I'm not doing that. I can do this naturally. Now I'm not going to say everyone should do what I did, but for me, I said, no, I could do this naturally. I don't need to take antidepressants.

So I started these walks of gratitude. I started to pray. Walks on the beach. Did that begin when you were still working for thefaltering.com? Yes. So you're down in Jacksonville. You're kind of having an existential crisis

in your young man's life about what you're doing. You're fighting with your wife. You're committed to becoming a better dude. You're trying to figure out what you're going to do professionally how does it all kind of come to a head so i'm walking i'm praying i'm doing all these different things and i said okay how can i make a living and what am i meant to do so writing and speaking came to me my back how did that come to you i said god why am i here what am i meant to do so writing and speaking came to me my back how did that come to you i said god why am i here what am i meant to do and this is going on in the context of kind of this spiritual exploration that you're having not religious at all right i just grew up nice jewish kid yeah just spiritual you

know the seeker like long island long island you get the long island strong island yeah yeah do you know uh do you know jesse itzler the name sounds so familiar yeah he's one of the um co-owners of the atlanta hawks okay uh anyway he's got the same accent as you oh that's funny it reminds me of him that's funny so yeah long island jewish uh doing a lot of buddhism meditation reading a lot of books by the Dalai Lama. And this was in part a response to your wife kind of pulling your covers? I was actually— Or was that going on at the same time? That was going on in my 20s.

My wife was really into that. We were both into that. We connected over that. Deepak Chopra would come to Atlanta. We'd go see Deepak speak. And we were really just into that movement. Carolyn Mace and healing and the anatomy of healing and just various things like that. So that was part of your constitution.

Yeah, I had it. I was seeking. I was a big seeker, so I would consider myself very spiritual. But I never really prayed and said, God, help me, which is what happened. And that's what you were doing. And you got an answer.

Yes, I did. I mean, you don't always get an answer, but I got an answer. I did I mean you know you don't always get an answer but I got an answer and like a lightning bolt answer no it wasn't like you will be a writer and speaker no it just came to me through like a and it still comes to this I get it all the time it's more of a knowing like I hear words but it's more like it's instantaneous so it's not like I hear it audibly but I hear it and it's writing and speaking really what am I going to write and speak about didn't know but that's what came to me I'm like

all right that's what I'm going to do and I loved Ken Blanchard who taught at Cornell and wrote the One Minute Manager I was inspired by books like Jonathan Livingston Siegel and by Richard Bach and Illusions which inspired Og Mandino, the greatest salesman, the road less traveled. I read that book that really impacted me. I read that when I was, I read that when I was like probably 20 years old. So I was into these books and into these writers.

And when writing and speaking came to me, I said, Oh yeah, like it made sense. Like, okay, that's why I'm here. That's what I'm meant to do.

But I couldn't just say, all right, honey right honey I'm gonna be a writer and speaker I don't know how I'm gonna provide for the family you go to work and I'm gonna do that I didn't want her to go to work I wanted to provide so I got back in the restaurant business and decided to open a Moe's Southwest Grill because I had friends who started the original Moe's they were only about four in the country at the time all in Atlanta we became the original Moe's. There were only about four in the country at the time, all in Atlanta. We became the fifth Moe's, first one in Florida. And we second mortgaged our home,

$20,000 in credit cards. That money that I got from my partners that I sold the restaurant, put that in there. And that was everything we had. I mean, literally we had nothing else. It was everything we had, we put into that restaurant. Right, it's a great story too because you were sort of contemplating this but then it wasn't until you went out to the movies

with your friends right that you had another sort of lightning bolt right we were thinking we were thinking about doing it and um we were talking about it but nothing was working the landlord was being difficult mose was being difficult and we went to the movies which we were supposed to go to a different theater. But our friend said, no, no, we're going to see Planet of the Apes in Tinseltown. And Planet of the Apes, I remember it was playing. The only parking space available was the one that was right in front of the spot where you're supposed to do the Moe's. And I said to my wife, I'm getting this feeling that we're supposed to do the Moe's. She said, I okay let's do it i called up the landlord he was awesome called up mo's they were awesome the next day like it was synchronicity like you and i had yeah and the energy was just flowing in

the right direction yeah i mean it was just like go with that you just go with it and some things you just you know you just can't explain i mean even just like um you know you coming over here like a day before you come over to, my daughter is watching What the Health? And after watching that, she says, Mom and Dad, I decide I'm going to go vegan. Just after watching that. She has no idea that you and I are talking, that you're coming over here to do this podcast together. And she watches that movie and inspired us so much that she's like, I'm going a vegan i mean what are the odds that's crazy she just walked in the kitchen a minute ago she's being really quiet that's so that's kind of even here that's great

behind you um yeah i love that kind of stuff right like why is it like of all the time like why is that happening the day before you know and you could pass it off whatever coincidence but i like to you know i like to embrace the beautiful mystery of life and i choose to believe that there's more at play with things like that oh yeah it's definitely a mystery yeah so you open up this restaurant and that's that's given you a little bit of a cushion to now explore the writing well not right away no because the goal was to open up the restaurant, keep the job at the dot com, and get the restaurant going, make it successful, and then quit. Right. But I lost my job three weeks before the restaurant opened.

And so now I have no money coming in. No insurance for my family. All your money's in the restaurant. All of it's in the restaurant. We have one month of savings in our bank account. How are we going to provide for our family when it takes a while for restaurants to make a profit? And what happens if it doesn't?

So I violated all business plans. But it was where my faith was born because my wife and I went out there. We flyered the movie theater right next to us, all the cars. We went to all the businesses in the area promoting catering. Just started marketing the heck out of the place to get business. Broke even right away, though.

Wasn't losing money, but wasn't making money. Right. It's easy to have faith when everything's going your way. Right. You know what I mean? Like, faith is meant to be tested. Like, do you really have faith all right i'm gonna pull that dot com job away from you i'm gonna make sure you only got a month

to sit on and then we'll see if you're really serious about this right because i think that's again that's another thing that we're kind of encouraged to run away from but that is almost you know universally like beautifully orchestrated for you to really go in. Like, do you mean that you really want to do this? All right, well, I'm going to make you work for it. We'll see if you really want this. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah.

And I love that because so many people reach out to me now and they are full of fear about taking the next step. But I could speak from my own experience. I did it. I lived it. I lived it. I stepped out in faith. I went through my fear. So I can help that person who was thinking about the next step or they're worried about that. Or I can tell they don't have faith. They're full of fear. And I'll let them know you're full of fear. And if you really truly want to create your future,

you have to embrace that, move through it, take a step of faith, a leap of faith sometimes, to create the life that you want. And if you're not willing to do that, if you're not able to do that, then I don't believe the universe, God, whatever you want to call it, will get behind you to create what you need to create. So I believe God will move heaven and earth when you're on the path and you're willing to take that leap of faith to go do what you're meant to do. Yeah. I believe that. I believe that to be true. I mean, I have my version of that story, you know, and it involves pending foreclosure and cars getting repossessed and like not being able to like, you know, pay for our garbage to get paid. I mean, you know, like

really meeting my maker, you know, on a fundamental level to like test me, to say like, all right, are you really committed to like, can you burn in this flame and come out the other side? And I think, you know, with that, you know, you said like, all right, well, you know, maybe, you know, God will move heaven and earth to get behind you if you have that faith. And I think, you know, one distinction I would make, or maybe we can kind of clarify here is that just because you have faith doesn't mean you're immune from fear. You know what I mean? Like I had faith, but I was scared too. You know, it's like I was trying to take action despite that fear, but I wouldn't say that I wasn't afraid. My wife was less afraid, actually. She was like, no, this is what we're doing. We're in all the way.

Like you just have to have faith. You've got to like not think, you got to like expand your mind outside the paradigm of social expectations and this rule book that you've lived your life by and think more broadly. Like she had a lot more of that kind of strength than I did.

And I would be like, okay, I'll give that a go. But like playing it for eight, but still moving forward. You know you're with the right person when they give you strength, first of all. I think that's important to share. Because like my wife, same thing. Like she didn't yell at me. She wasn't mad.

Like, how could you lose your job? She said, it's okay. It's going to be all right. Like somehow we're going to get through this. And I remember a friend who owed me money called up out of the blue and pay me back the money he owed that helped carry us for a month i mean it was like these little things that happened i sold a franchisee on mo's potential franchisee so i got a kickback fee for selling

a franchise that carried us right comes right at the right moment right when you think you can't go any further it's like the analogy that i always use is there's a there's a really old popeye cartoon and in the cartoon sweet pea remember the little baby yeah like sweet pea like escaped and is crawling around and finds herself on a construction site and she crawls up onto a like a girder beam that's that gets pulled up by a crane and swings around and like right when she's about to crawl off the end it like lines up with another girder and she crawls and it's like it that repeats and repeats and repeats until she's finally back on the ground like right when at that moment where you think it's going to be a disaster that that thing shows up and it's just it's just it might not be what you want but it's just enough of what you need to keep you going boom and that is the is the universe showing up, like I said in Finding Ultra,

like when your faith is true, when your aim is true, the universe will conspire to support you. And that doesn't mean it's going to be comfortable or easy or show up in the package that you would prefer, but somehow it's going to work. Yeah.

And I got the call from a friend who said, we want to learn about wireless technology, the.com you had worked for. Can you teach us? I said, well, we want to learn about wireless technology, the.com you had worked for. Can you teach us? I said, well, I don't know about the technology because I'm not a technology guy, so I'm probably not the right fit. He said, no, teach us how to sell it.

I said, okay, I can do that. So you say you want to speak, and then here's a speaking opportunity. They pay me $13,000 for six weeks of consulting. I'll never forget. I mean, it was a miracle. And as that money came in it carried us until the last dime ran out of our account and then we made our first profit

at our restaurant like it was clockwork as that money ran out from the consulting we made our first profit in the restaurant six months later yeah because we were just literally hanging by a thread and just finding any way to pay the bills and eating at Moe's, you know, every day. But trusting. But trusting. But like you said, full of fear, but yet also having faith.

Scared, but taking action and just trusting that somehow, some way, it would work out. Now, I did say this. God, please provide for my family, and I'll do your work. And for me, that meant give back, make the world better, do the work of giving to others. And I never will forget that.

And I always am tested on that. Like, is it about you, John? Or is it about you giving back to others? Is it about the fact that you're writing these books, but but what are you doing to help others and i'm always pushing challenge and is that plea coming from fear or is it or is it coming from you know a more forward thinking perspective forward think forward think yeah yeah no no but what i'm saying is like when you're both like when you're doing that prayer it's like yeah it's like am i doing this just out of my ego because i don't want to be a failure or or do i really want to serve you know what i mean like i think it's human beings it's like you can't

say right it was like it was like i will like provide for me and my family and i will do your work which really which i never said that before so I don't even know where it came from, but it came to me in that moment of, yes, fear, please provide, but I'll make sure that my life is not about me going forward. I had to die to myself because I was in many ways self-consumed and it was always about success, success, success. And it was about feeling successful. My father left when I was one. And I think that abandonment issue, people who have abandonment issues

always want to prove those people wrong. So I think there's probably an element to that. So for me, it was always about being successful to prove other people wrong. Ultimately, that was a defining moment where it became no longer about me being a success, but about making a difference. And so even when I wrote The Energy Bus, and it was rejected by all those publishers, and even when I went on a tour, when it finally came out, and had five people in every city,

and 10 people in other cities, like not a big crowd. Yes, I wanted to be a person of value. I was was going out there wanted to be someone of value doing this but what drove me ultimately was to go make a difference because just your own success will not carry you that far I don't think no I think that push there's a there's a beautiful mystical spiritual equation that occurs when you go from how am i going to get mine or you know how can i win in this situation or what am i going to get out of this to how can i contribute how can i serve how can i help you get yours and if you can shift your mindset into that and your actions follow for some reason your life life gets better. And it gets better by a multiple

of five to 10 to 20 and then on. And it's not like, I'm not hardwired to be that way. But when I can get into that space, like I have to practice gratitude to be great. I'm not a naturally grateful person. I'm an irritable, you know, resentful, fear based, fear-based. I have to do a lot of work to just scratch the surface of those. But when I do, my life is way better. You know what it is? We all have this physical nature and we have a spiritual nature. And I think it's the battle between those two of the flesh and physical nature of survival, of dominance, of getting what I want.

But then we have the spiritual nature, which is about love, and compassion, and forgiveness, and giving and servant, serving others and caring. So I think we have this two natures that are at war with each other. But I think we we sort of approach those from a perspective of how can I get more of that in my life? How can I get more love? How can I get more appreciation? How can I, whatever, as opposed to like, how can it, when the truth is in order to, the way to get those is to, is to be giving those right. To be giving those away, to be practicing that. Yeah. The more you want it, don't seek it, give it. And then when you give it, it comes back to you tenfold right it's the generosity principle

right right right yeah all right so you get this consulting gig and then you sit down you you get channeled you know the idea for this first book you sit down you write this thing in three and a half weeks right and then you're getting rejected by all these publishers yeah that that book happened after actually i sold the restaurants so it, okay. So it was, I was out speaking in Oregon, and I wasn't doing a lot of speaking, but it was going okay, two or three a month maybe, and I loved it. But the restaurants were weighing me down. And I was reading a magazine that said how to value your business when selling. On the way home, a different magazine that said-

You're thinking about selling at the time yeah but then there's an article in the business magazine then a completely different business magazine one was ink one was entrepreneur success like it was different magazines and the other one said how to how to value your business when selling two different magazine two different articles the science universe is speaking to you again yes Yes. Walked in the house, said to my wife, we're going to sell the restaurants. It's time. This was around 2005. And knew it was time.

So sell the restaurants to another franchisee in town who bought my stores and had enough money to carry us maybe for a couple years, a year or two, maybe two years. I said, all right, I'm now going to put 100% into writing and speaking. But six months go by and nothing's happened. Had you been writing or were you blocked? No, I had written another book that I don't really talk about much,

but I wrote another book called Energy Addict. 101 Ways to Energize Your Life. So it was about physical energy, mental energy, emotional energy, spiritual energy. Got on the Today Show. So I thought my life was going to take off after I got on the Today Show. Like, all right, that's it.

You've arrived. I've arrived. After the Today Show, like, got a little buzz, but then everything just dried up. It was wild. It was like my greatest dream, and then everything dries up after that. And that was 2006 or something? That was around 2005. Oh, wow.

So 2006, we sell the restaurants. Now it transitions to 2006. Six months after selling the restaurants, nothing's happening. Everything's dried up. Not a lot of speaking. And I'm like, okay, now I have about a year and a half of income left. What happens if it doesn't work? What am I going to do?

So I'm walking again, now a little fearful, and I'm praying. And the idea for the energy bus came to me. And that's when I wrote that in about three and a half weeks after that moment. Right. I'm like, pfft. Literally just three and a half weeks. Three and a half weeks. I wrote this book.

Now, I did have an agent from the previous book, Ariel Ford, who works with Deepak. And she writes her own books as well. Her sister was Debbie Ford. And Ariel pitched it around, and it got rejected by all these publishers. And you're left with... More fear. Well, it's another test of faith.

Yes. Are you really supposed to be a writer? Right. Like, what am I going to do if this doesn't work out? And I thought I wrote something that might make a difference. My wife said, it's pretty good. She didn't like love it. She thought it was okay. Didn't know it was going to sell a million copies as it has now. You know, no one had a clue. No one thought it would do anything. I didn't know. I thought I had something that was cool it would make a difference and I was you know positive energy was all

about positive energy and it just to me it made sense but I remember not even having the ten rules when I sat there and started writing it had a few and then one rule it to the other which led to the other which led to the other and I'm like oh I got my ten rules now and so we just kept putting it out there. Kept getting rejected, kept getting rejected. And then one day I'm in John, I'm in, I'm sorry, Barnes & Noble looking at a bookstore and looking at the shelf and seeing all these books on the shelf. And I noticed John Wiley & Sons was a publisher of a bunch of business books. And I considered this more of a business book. And I

asked my agent if we sent it to Wiley. She said, no, we hadn't. I said, send it to Wiley. She said, okay. She sends it to Wiley. She sends it to the health editor because she was more in the health side of things. The health editor should have thrown it away but didn't.

Gave it to the business editor. Said, here, Matt, take a look at this. He takes a look at it. He goes, eh. Hands it to his assistant Shannon Vargo she reads it the main character's named George she has a best friend with a husband named George

and she decides she wants to do the book because she actually remembered me from the Today Show see oh she knew that but she was new right she was new she only been at the job for a few months and she went to bat for you with her boss with her boss he said if this doesn't go well it could be your

career and she said no I want to do it I believe in it yeah and they go we don't have a lot we don't have a lot of money can't give you a big advance I said I don't care I just want the book out there and so the book comes out and right away it becomes a huge hit in Korea, which I shared before. And so that was surprising. Have you been able to figure out how that happened? Was there some news piece that came out? No one can. No one knows.

There's got to be patient zero for that. Somehow, somebody got it to somebody who got it to somebody. They were in Singapore at a book show where they were doing the foreign rights, where they're showing the foreign publishers different books. And there were two publishers that started a bidding war over the book. doing the foreign rights where they're showing the foreign publishers different books and there were two publishers that started a bidding war over the book and that's what happened i see and so they probably put some heft behind pushing it out there yeah once it went out the foreign rights

sold for like 220 000 that's crazy people don't realize in publishing how de minimis foreign rights are i know almost nothing a thousand dollars here. You're going to get $1,000 here. Oh, I'll get an email from my mom. It's a great deal, $1,500 for France. I'm like, what? And my mom, she read the manuscript, but she passed away before the book came out. So I'm like, did my mom speak Korean? I always said my mom was-

Some past life thing with Korea, she was a Jewish mom. She had a strong personality. So I think, I always felt like my mom was up there and having like, just advocating on my behalf. Like, come on,

just help my son, help my son. So you're huge in Korea, but nobody in the United States knows anything about you or this book, despite the fact that you've been on the Today Show, which I think is interesting because, you know,

there was a day and a time where if you were on the today show that was it like you were you arrived man and doors started swinging wide open you know the days of being a stand-up comedian and going on carson and then overnight you're a household name we don't live in that world anymore no and you know i've heard it many times from authors who go on the today show or the other version of that and they think it's going to be their defining moment, and it's like nothing. Because the way we consume content has changed so drastically. That's a passive audience, right? As opposed to, for example, a podcast where people are already – they already want to hear what you have to say.

They're a captive audience, and they're on their their device so it's a click away from buying a book or what have you but having had that experience i think actually like you might have thought this is terrible but actually that was the fuel that you know provided the motivation for you to go on this crazy tour you know i don't know how many cities you went to but it's one person at a time connecting as deeply as possible as opposed to you know doing it on a surface level in a broad way, which is kind of like what the Today Show is. But the Today Show even then, this was 2005, 2006. Even back then, it was still the place to be. And I was on four times.

Did a four-week series. So I should have become household name. But here's the deal. If it becomes something big, I never write the energy bus. And so I really believe it didn't take off because, one, I was meant to write the energy bus, but I was also meant to change. Yeah, you weren't ready. I wasn't ready. And my spiritual maturity and growth hadn't happened yet.

And so I was still at a place where, yes, I wrote these books. Yes, I had changed a lot in a positive way but I still had to surrender a lot more I still had to come to my knees a lot more and truly just surrender to a greater power and that hadn't happened yet but it only happened when I wrote that allowed me to write The Energy Bus

and that happened The Energy Bus happened after I came to my knees and if it would have happened from the Today Show which it should have four week-week series, it didn't. Looking back, again, what I thought was going to change my life actually did in a better way. Yeah, that's a great perspective to have on it. Yeah.

So you go on this crazy tour, one person at a time, five people showing up at a bookstore, the crazy cat lady. Oh, yeah, you've had them, yes. Oh, yeah, like the one person that wants to talk to you for an hour and you know about publishing they never want to talk about your book they want to talk about their own book they always want to talk about their own book you know and i actually made a free webinar that i give to people all the time now when they want to talk about how to publish your book i said hey I did this webinar for you and for people who want to know

so that you don't always have to talk to help people. You have it right there for them because they still want to help them. Right. And maybe I could put a link up to that. Yeah, I love helping people find their path. But yeah, the most people we had were 100 people in Des Moines, Iowa.

This is like 2007. Yeah, 2007. They thought Jeff Gordon was coming. That's why people in Des Moines, Iowa. This is like 2007? Yeah, 2007. They thought Jeff Gordon was coming. That's why they showed up. They really did. I got called Jeff like four times. So what's the tipping point? I mean, was it just a gradual build of awareness?

Or were there a couple things that kind of occurred where you suddenly found yourself? Like suddenly, like, oh, man, now i'm selling a lot of books and oh now i'm getting invited to go you know speak to the 49ers or you know it was whatever team the jaguars were the first team i spoke to lived in jacksonville but a friend who was a trainer gave the book to mike smith who was the defensive coordinator of the jaguars he gave it to jack del rio who was the head coach jack del rio called me up out of the blue would love to come meet with you met with jack and that led to my first team i ever spoke to gave it to Jack Del Rio who was the head coach Jack Del Rio called me up out of the blue would love to come meet with you met with Jack and that led to my first team I ever spoke to again looking back how does that happen I'm an unknown nobody I've never worked with even though you're showing

up yeah but I've never worked with a college team you know or even a high school team but that was a bit intimidating very first time to go into that, like, all right, what am I going to say to these guys? I remember walking down the aisle towards the front of the room. The team's all sitting there. Mike Tice is offensive line coach, big guy, coach from Long Island. And I walk by. He knows from Long Island.

And he goes, Strong Island. As I walk by him, just remember that moment. And I walk to the front of the room, and I see Fred Taylor, Maurice Jones Drew, players who I watched on TV, who I loved, and now I'm here to speak to them. It was really intimidating. Yeah. But I said.

But it has to be a moment where you're like, wow, like all that faith that I had or everything that I went through, I'm seeing the physical manifestation. I wish I was thinking that way. No, in that moment. In retrospect, looking back. Oh yeah, retrospect. But in the moment, no.

In the moment I said, you know what? I said, you have something that can inspire them, that can make a difference. Go for it. No fear. Go for it. You only live once. And so that was my mindset. And being an athlete, I had allowed fear to Go for it. You only live once. And so that was my mindset.

Because being an athlete, I had allowed fear to ruin those moments. I had been in those moments where the moment was bigger than me. And I didn't do well. So I always have this desire in those big moments to not allow fear to keep me from that moment, but to embrace it and just move forward with love. Right. That's one thing that Gervais talks about all the time. Like there are no big moments.

There's just moments. Right. Right. Phone's ringing. Sorry about that. That's all right, man. You probably heard that part out. It's okay.

It's life, man. Life's happening. I can hang it up. You want to answer it? No. We can just hang it up. Yeah. Oh, Jason Ken.

So, you know, in the wake of the first book's success, you've gone on to write, you've written 17 books. So that means you're like writing two books a year, right? It's crazy. Yeah. The prolific output. And, you know, one of the things that I'm kind of dealing with right now, you know, Finding Ultra came out in 2012.

It's been five years. And I'm starting to unpack the next book and it's taken me a really long time and I've been really blocked and Finding Ultra just flowed right. I mean, obviously I know the story. It was in certain respects, even though it was, I'm a first time author, it was kind of an easy book to write because like I knew the story obviously. And this, the one I'm working on now is a little bit trickier, but it's more than that. And I think it's something that you've experienced which is you have a success and then you feel this internal pressure uh that the next one's got to be better or if it's not as good then you're going to be you know what I mean like that and I I know you've

gone through that so can we talk about that a little bit? Sure. Yeah. We don't want to let people down. We don't want people to think maybe we're a fraud. I think it goes back to the imposter syndrome. Like who am I to be writing these books? How did other books become successful? I'll read what I wrote years ago with energy bus or training camp. And I'm thinking, I didn't even remember writing that. Like, how did I write that? And so there's this scary feeling of writing something new and it not being good. I think the more success you have,

the more fear you have, because the farther you have to fall now. And a lot of people think, oh, once you have success, there's no fear. I think the fear is greater. So as an artist, like you are, it's about the work. And I believe it's about not thinking about what the outcome is going to be, other than I have a vision for it. I know I have to create a masterpiece. So I'm just going to put my love, my heart, my soul

into creating what I'm meant to create, to make it the best it can be. And that should just be the only focus. So the craftsman is not thinking about failing. The craftsman's only thinking about the craft and doing the work and working to create a masterpiece. So it's outside in versus inside out. So we're looking outside at the expectation, at the hype, and fear is outside of what people will think. But to write the masterpiece it's

basically writing what you feel meant to write and writing from within that which energizes you that what you're passionate about that what you want to share and just go into that place of sharing it yeah i like that i mean i think you know when you the energy bus, like you got to make it happen. Like there's nothing else going on. Right. Like you, this is, there was no fear that. Yeah. Right.

Because, and you don't have any, you know, beyond your family and the sort of financial pressure that you were feeling, I'm sure there weren't a lot of people pulling on you for your time. Right. But now your phone's ringing all the time and all those opportunities are awesome and you get to go and like go and go to these cool stadiums and meet with these amazing athletes that you know you respect and revere it's all good right but at some point i would imagine you have to learn how to say no because now is my writing time or you know and those that it becomes a

different decision tree you have to to say, you know what? I'm going to do the art of writing and make that part of my craft and make time for that instead of saying, oh, I'm going to take this speaking gift. You have to give up some speaking gigs and that means money to write what you're meant to write.

So what I try to do is write every December when things slow down. It's weird that I wrote two books a year because it didn't feel like it so 2007 to it's been 10 years right so it works that way actually it's more like 15 books because the other two were were a couple years before that i got that so 15 books right only 15 in 10 years right okay and the shark goldfish and positive dog are real small, real short. And one word I wrote with Dan and Jimmy, and so we wrote that together.

Right. So I would say, you know, maybe it's about 11 or 12 that I wrote alone during that time. So almost one or a little more than one a year, every December. All the fables are definitely every December, and that's that spiritual time of sitting down and writing

and making time for the work. But before every book, there's that fear that it's not going to be good or that it's not going to come this time. I think I feel that before every talk. What happens if I don't have it today? What happens if I just don't have it? What's your process of getting right? Do you have a prepared keynote type thing

or you just get up there and try to channel, read the energy of the audience? Right, I have a framework of what I'm gonna share. So if the audience is a business audience, it's a different kind of talk. I spoke to Medtronic in Minneapolis, the leaders of Medtronic in Minneapolis, the leaders of Medtronic just recently. And that was based on the power of positive leadership. And I knew what

their struggles were because I talked to them like three or four times and really went through their issues, their challenges, the people in the audience, what they're going through. So I crafted a custom talk based on my principles, but to share the message that they needed to hear. But that homework was really necessary to deliver what they wanted. And they loved it, which is great. I was so proud of that because we had done so much preparation for it, and it really hit them home, hit home. So then other talks, you know, I worked with Dell and EMC, the merger of those two companies.

Have to find out what they're going through, the merger, leaders coming together. And then when I'm working with a sports team, again, what challenges are they facing? I go to a school district. Okay, tell me about what the themes are for the year. What are your issues? What are your challenges? So every talk is customized, which I like. And I have to prepare for.

But it's basically, I have all these principles. I'm like, all right, I'm going to speak about this, that, that, and then I have to just put them together. What story goes here? What application goes here? How do I want to end this one? What's my beginning? So based on all these talks you give over the years, you sort of put together a framework of what the talk is going to be. Gotcha. So in the Venn diagram, sports and business definitely overlap, right? And a lot of that sort of leadership and teamwork principles, I would imagine, are equally applicable or similar. But how do you differentiate when you're talking to a sports team

versus meeting with a division of a company? Is it the same or is it a different language? Are the principles, do they vary at all? I think the principles are the same. I have a power of a positive educator talk that I give to educators. And I speak to a lot of school districts in August. So as they're beginning their school year, I talk to a lot of school districts in August. So as they're beginning their school year, I talk to the principals, the leaders, and a lot of times, maybe 6000 teachers

of a district all together in a big kind of arena. I love that I love making a difference in education. Like, I charge less for it, because I want to do it. A lot of business speakers will say, no, I'm not going to do it because they don't pay that. I want to go do it because education, I believe, is where we're going to change the future of our country. We're going to have an impact. So for me, it's more personal and passionate. And I know that I got the master's in teaching at Emory for a reason because I never taught. But that's what you do. You are a teacher.

Fundamentally. I mean, the speaking, the books. Yeah, what you do. You are a teacher. Fundamentally. I mean, the speaking, the books. Yeah, it's teaching. You're teaching. I would consider myself a teacher more than a speaker. I hate the term motivational speaking. It's a terrible term.

I do not see myself as a... Do they call you that when you speak? I hope not. But when you do go give a talk. I know they'd say ultra marathoner, you know, legend, this and that. I don't like it. Well, maybe somebody does.

I mean, I don't think of myself like that. But, you know, it sounds so corny. It don't like it. Well, maybe somebody does. I mean, I don't think of myself like that. But, you know, it sounds so corny. It sounds like you're coming in with some canned thing, you know, that it's just schlocky. Right, I hate that. And so, I hate the term motivational speaker. So I would say I'm a teacher who's teaching principles for leadership

or principles for teamwork or principles for positivity and how to overcome these challenges. Or I love speaking to entrepreneurs about growing your business and building your brand and overcoming fear and the challenges that entrepreneurs face. My book, The Carpenter, I wrote because I wanted that to be about entrepreneurs who are going to work on their craft. From going from the carpenter to the craftsman right and and and show up every day and do the work ignore the critics show up and work on your craft no time for naysayers i'm too busy

creating my work what is the uh the thing that you see the most in terms of the achilles heel of whether it's the sports team or the division of the fortune 500 company like where are people tripping themselves up necessarily but you know commonly great question I believe the biggest challenges leaders are facing today companies teams organizations are facing today are one leaders are not focusing on their culture they don't take the time to focus on their culture and say, like, who are we? What are we about? What do we want to build?

What kind of culture do we want to create? What kind of impact do we want to have? The great organizations do, and those are the ones that everyone talks about. But enough are, too many are not talking about it, and more need to. They're too busy putting out fires. They're too busy just trying to create results. Yeah yeah I talk about the fact that they're focusing on

the fruit of the tree and ignoring the root the culture is your root and if you ignore the root and focus on the fruit the tree dies but if you invest in the root and make it your number one priority you always have a great supply of fruit so it's kind of cultural a lot of time it's harder because you have to invest more in that root but over time you get great fruit. So that's sort of the dynamic and the kind of analogy I share with leaders to help them understand that. And they get it. So that's my goal. Get leaders to focus on their culture because a lot don't. Second mistake they make is they ignore the negativity that exists in teams and organizations. So they don't want to confront it. No one likes to deal with negativity and actually confront the challenges that exist.

So the reason why the energy bus has been so popular is because it deals with energy vampires and it deals with negativity on a team and trying to convert it or transform it to positivity. Right. And so they make the mistake of ignoring the negativity. So I'm a big believer in, hey, confront it with the intent of transforming it. If you can't transform it, then you have to remove it.

Too many leaders today, though, they'll say, they'll read the energy bus and be like, you're either on my bus or off the bus. And I get the emails all the time, like, my boss is the biggest energy vampire volunteer. Give us your book to read. Yeah, so what do you do when the leader of the pack is the- The vampire. giving us your book you know to read yeah so what do you do when the leader of the pack is the vampire yeah like biggest challenge you know

what i mean because that's the person who's charged with crafting and creating that culture i mean i think you know i don't i have less experience in the corporate i mean i was a lawyer for a while but less experience without more experience with sports but i think there's a sense that the culture is what it is like Like, oh, these are the guys on the team. That's the dynamic. And there's nothing we can do about it, as opposed to this idea that it can be shaped, right? With some intentional effort and exercise. Yeah. Once you know what you stand for, every decision you make is easy. And so every culture, every leader needs to say, what do we stand for as a culture? What are we about? And you just nailed it in the fact that so many leaders think it's static, but actually culture

is dynamic. Every day you're creating culture by what you think, by what you day, what you do, and by what you say, the habits you create. So culture drives the behaviors, the expectations. Those drive the habits, and that ultimately creates the future. So it all starts with the culture we create. And the one thing that leaders do is they create great cultures. Great leaders create great cultures. And we see it over and over again. And the bad leaders don't i very rarely go into organizations that have bad cultures why they're not going to bring someone like me in right because they're not looking at it they're not looking at it they don't care about it so i

love that you say culture is dynamic because because it really is and and every day you are either creating it or you allowing it to create you dab. Dabo Sweeney with Clemson, you know, national championship just this year, he has a book like 18 inches thick that's all about their culture. And every year he goes over that book page by page with his coaching staff for four full days in a retreat, page by page. All right, this year we did this. We talked about this. Here's we did this we talked about this here's we did this it seems monotonous like why would you do that and he said because we can't forget what

made this program what it is we got to go back to our basics it'd be nice if you summarized it in one page but no page by page yeah yeah of this book and that that, you know, a positive functional culture is improved. Is it like, how do you, how am I trying to phrase this? You know, a positive culture, whether it's on a sports team or in a corporation is going to be infused with connectivity, which is something you talk about all the time, right? Like how do you foster that connectivity? And it comes down to caring, right? Like whether you're an employee or you're a member of a team, you have to care. If you feel connected to these people, you're going to care more.

That's going to trickle down and sort of foster that kind of culture that you're trying to foment, right? Yeah, positive leaders, they unite the organization but connect with the individual. So they create unity, but then they develop relationships with the people they lead. And that's the other thing. Leaders don't make time to invest in relationships. They want results. But Andy Stanley said rules without relationship lead to rebellion.

I can't get this guy to do what I want him to do. Well, you don't even know what he's going through, right? Because you haven't taken the time to like invest yourself in his life. Like if he feels like you care, then he's going to deliver for you. I mean, it seems fundamental. It's so basic. But I've seen it, you know, in the law firms that I've worked in. Like people are so busy that, you know, the partner will tell me

or would tell somebody, well, I don't have time for that. You know what I mean? It takes a diligent, you know, focus't have time for that you know what I mean it takes a diligent you know focus to like say I'm gonna make that time and that will pay off later because I'll have people that you know feel like they're part of this team that I'm trying to create and they're gonna they're gonna work that extra you know hour or two and that's why you see like Wall Street companies like Wall Street businesses they don't have the time for that no one's focusing on culture it's like no we're making money this is what we're doing we're a law firm we don't have time for that sports

teams no we're doing our x and o's we don't have time for culture no we need to focus on and those are the ones where you can have a lot of turnover a lot of turnover a lot of fires a lot of issues and then you see the warriors and then you see the spurs and then you see the patriots and then you see southwest airlines and then you see great companies that have great cultures and you see the Spurs and then you see the Patriots and then you see Southwest Airlines and then you see great companies that have great cultures and you see sustained success. You see sustained leadership

and great leadership and then you see the fruit ongoing of those organizations. And so it's like, why don't people get this? Like it's so clear. I guess if they didn't, if they got it,

everyone got it, I wouldn't have books to write or talks to give because people would just get it right i mean well pat riley makes pretty clear you know he's pretty transparent in his coaching methods and his results speak for themselves so why isn't every coach trying to emulate that right like that's the big question like why wouldn't everyone do what they're doing? Now, they want to replicate the success, but they're not willing, I think, to replicate all that goes into creating a great culture

all the time, all the energy, all the effort. It takes a lot of work. I mean, you have to invest a lot to create a great culture. To be a parent, I have two teenagers, 19 and 17, takes so much to invest in my kids. It'd be a lot easier just to say, you know what? I'm going to do my thing today. I'm surfing all day.

I'm playing tennis. I'm going to do this. You guys deal with it. But I know years later I'm going to regret that. I want them to be the best they can be, so I will invest and make time for them, knowing in the long run everyone's going to benefit. And so I think the same thing goes for leadership.

You can ignore your people, but if you ignore your people, they'll never perform at their highest level, and you'll never be the best team that you can be. So the best leaders I have found, they provide love and accountability. A lot of love, but a lot of accountability to being the best you can be. But love comes first. I call it love tough versus tough love. So for every CEO or coach or teacher or team captain that's listening to this, there's 10 or 100 employees or team members that are listening to this.

And I'm just trying to envision sitting in their shoes saying, my boss or my coach or my teacher doesn't get it. And I don't know what to do. So we're creating a 360 assessment that we want positive leaders, or maybe they're not positive leaders, but leaders to give to their team and say, how am I doing?

Am I a positive leader? Am I helping you be your best? Like actually provide assessment that your team answers. And if you're open, you'll get some great results that can help you get better. I had a leader tell me that he read my book, The Seven C's to Build a Winning Team, The Win in the Locker Room First, I wrote with Mike Smith. And a big chapter is on communication and he asked his team how am i communicating some said oh you're great you're great you're great you know they said because they that's what you wanted to hear right but one said you're not doing this you're not doing that you're not doing that you make me feel this way actually a couple said that he said

it changed his leadership style became a better communicator and he's seeing amazing results we have this one program we call Driver Positive Change. It's our program where we help managers become better leaders. And we have a love letter to an energy vampire exercise as part of our training. You have to write a love letter to one of your energy vampires. And the love letter is a letter of encouragement, of belief and support. Like, here's what I see in you. Here's the good I see. Here's the great things you're doing. And you may not want to write that letter, but we have them do it. belief and support like here's what i see in you here's the good i see here's the great things you're doing and you may not want to write that letter but we have them do it well one of our

managers who went through it she reported back to us and said she did the letter they wound up sitting down for two hours and had an amazing conversation talked more than they ever had even in years of working there the relationship bonded She found out she was going through a lot of difficult challenges. That's why she was being a vampire. The leader found out that the employee was going through a lot of challenges, had a lot of issues. That's why they were so negative. And now they're like, incredible relationship. It completely transformed the leadership style, she said. That's interesting. You know, the first part of your answer was involves a, you know, a leader that is open to these ideas, right? But I'm just imagining

like the employee sitting in a cubicle or in their office where they're on a dysfunctional team, right? And they're not able to, you know, get on the radar of their boss or the person's is not receptive, right? Like, so is the solution. I mean, I guess you could shoulder some responsibility to be a leader in that department yourself and try to transform it on your own or you got to leave, right?

You have two choices. You change your attitude and say, you know what? I'm going to lead from where I am. I'm not going to complain. I'm going to lead from where I am and be a leader and an influencer in my sphere. I call it making your bus great. You may not be driving the big bus,

but you can drive your bus and make your bus great and a model for other buses. Or this culture is so dysfunctional. This culture is so bad. I don't see it changing. I'm going to go be a part of a great culture and I'm going to look for a great place to work, which is why great cultures have the pick of people who want to work there.

So many want to work there. But I'm on a mission with this new book I wrote, The Power of Positive Leadership. I want leaders to read this book because I wrote it because, you know what? Your number one job as a leader is to provide an environment where your people could do their best work and if you're not creating that environment if you're not being that type of leader then you're hurting them and yourself so my hope is that I can hopefully change as many leaders I can or inspire them and help them improve to

be their best and I've heard from a lot, you know, a lot that have changed, that have improved. That's what keeps me going. Those emails keep me going. Now, I have a lot more to reach. So does Ken Blanchard. So do others that are out there. Patrick Lencioni wrote five dysfunctions of a team. Hopefully over time, you know, this has an impact. That's the hope. That's all we can do, right? But I think about that person in the cubicle, and it's the email I get most from people. My boss is an energy vampire. What do I do?

And it's always start with you on the inside. Walt Whitman said we're convinced by our presence. Be the best that you can be, and then start creating from within, and then you'll transform. And you may leave, but if you leave, great. If you stay, you'll have an impact on the people around you. Right, well, the one thing you can control

is your own behavior and your own attitude, right? And so I think when you get an email like that, you also have to parse, like, what part of this is this person being a victim, you know, as opposed to speaking truth to power, you know? And perhaps and there's probably a sliding scale of that like there's a certain kind of person that no matter what you tell them they're always going to say it's somebody else's fault you know what i mean so right you got to like deal with that personality type first i always look for that when i'm looking is this person a victim because i'll say something that i think

is profound and helpful and get back. And then I'll tell you another reason why they can't do that. Yes, exactly. Then I go, okay, I got it. Right, right, right, right. Well, another part of what you talk about a lot is this idea of you got to be, you got to have a telescope and you got to have a microscope, right? And there's different versions of this.

I mean, Gary Vee calls it, it you know clouds and dirt or you know or you know it's like see he would come up with a cooler term that's cooler terms than i would you know but the principle is the same right like you got like it it's it's sort of in this internet culture and also in the kind of self-help world and everything that gets packed into that it's like all about following your passion and have a huge dream and nobody can get in your way. And the universe is mine. There's a sort of millennial entitlement that gets built into that as well.

But, and that's great. You dream big, you know what I mean? But what are you doing right now? What is your next action? Like, what are the details of how you're living your day on a moment by moment, hour by hour basis? I love that.

Well, that's the big picture vision of the telescope of where you do have a vision of what you want to create. We do need a vision. We need a North Star that guides us. It's not some pie in the sky, but no. But it anchors what those decisions are going to be in those micro moments. Right. So you have this big picture vision that guides you.

I mean, you have a vision that drives you with everything that you do. I have a vision that drives me. It's to inspire and empower as many people as possible, one person at a time. It's going back to the tour, always making a difference, one person. If I'm too busy for that one person, then I'm not doing the right work. And that means that if someone reaches out to me on Facebook, I got to respond. Someone reaches out on Twitter having a problem, I got to respond. Not to promote their book or to teach them how to write a book,

but you have a genuine problem with your life, I'll help you. I will make time for that. So that's my vision that guides me. But then what's the Zoom focus actions you need to take each day to realize the big picture in the telescope? So I have to do this each day. And I usually believe that we can do three things.

I believe you can really zoom focus on three things each day. So what am I doing today to realize that picture? What's my commitments? Because a lot of people have big visions, but they don't have commitments to reach the vision. So I believe you have to be committed to the vision, and commitments are greater than goals. I'm a big fan of goals, but I'm a much bigger fan of commitments.

So explain to me the difference. So I was with an NFL team, and I asked them to write down their goals, and then I had them rip them up after they wrote them down. They took about five minutes to write them down. They were pretty upset. And then I said, you know why I'm having you rip them up? No, why?

Why? They were actually angry. I said, well, tell me about your goals. I want to have so many receptions, so many passes, so many touchdowns, so many yards. Everyone had their goals. Win a Super Bowl. I said, don't you think every other player in the NFL has the same goals written down?

Doesn't every team right now have Super Bowl as one of their goals? So only one can win a Super Bowl. So will your goals take you to where you want to go? No. But your commitments will. Now tell me what you're committed to in order to reach the goals.

One guy said, I need to spend more time in recovery. I don't recover enough. I don't invest in my recovery so my body wears down during the season. Another guy said, I eat too much fast food during the season. I did it last year. This year, I need to eat healthier.

Another guy said, my body starts breaking down during the course of the season. I did it last year. This year, I need to eat healthier. Another guy said, you know, my body starts breaking down during the course of the season. I got to visit the trainer when I'm injured and not ignore the trainer and take time from my health. They were all physical things, mostly for their body, for their recovery, for their health, you know? And so they were now telling me their commitments. And it was powerful when they started saying what they were going to be committed to. One player said, I'm going to spend more time in the film room watching tape, watching film. I'm going to commit to that. It would be interesting if you kind of rephrased it as that being the goal. My goal is to stay an extra half an hour after practice, three days a week, and do the extra fundamental drills or whatever

it is. Some guys said that. Yeah. Some guys actually said, I'm going to do this, this, and this for extra time. I'm going to show up early in practice and spend five minutes working on this. Yeah. Each guy had something different that they were going to do. But if you have a whole team that has their commitments written down, then you start to see that. And I love to do this with teams too. I say, okay, we all talk about being a great teammate, but let's talk about what great teammates do. And we'd put them up on the board and you'd have all these things that make a great teammate. And then you ask each person to pick one they're going to focus on in the course of the season. I think you also have to get at the why, like, why is that your goal? Why is that personally

important to you? And I think that gets to the connectivity piece. Like you got to get beneath everybody's skin and find out what makes them tick, what's important to them and why it's important to them. What is the drive? Why is it important to you that you get this many yards or win the Super Bowl? And if you can connect with that,

then I think you can create a way to support that as a leader or as a coach. Love that. Knowing your why, because we don't get burned out because of what we do. We get burned out because we forget why we do it. So I think you nailed it when the why always should drive everything you do. I have the team sometimes pick a word for the year. So each player picks a word that's going to drive them to be their best. But then we ask, why did you pick that word? Like, what's the why behind the word? Because it's the meaning

behind the word is even more powerful than the word itself. And where does service come into that? Well, some people's word might be service. You know, for me, serve was my word one year, but service is always... So you pick like a word every year? Yeah. Yeah. Every year pick a word. That is like your thematic... Been doing it for six years wrote a book one word that will change your life with dan and jimmy they've been doing this for over 20 years together they're like accountability partners great buddies they've been doing it for years and they have a thing one word and so i started doing it when they told me the idea six years ago and it was catalytic. It was so powerful. So what have your words been over the years? So they have been purpose was my first word.

Serve was a word another year. Rise was my word another year. I wanted to rise to a new level of health. I was dealing with a lot of food challenges. I have a lot of food allergies. So I eat mostly vegan except seafood. So I do seafood and vegan. My word was forgive last year, which was tough. That was a tough year because I had to forgive my biological father. So I worked on that. This year my word is still, to be still. And to not be drawn into all the craziness and the noise.

Yeah, I'm not doing great with it this year. I have to admit, it's not been a great year with my work. Maybe it'll be your word next year too. No, you're not allowed to pick it again. Oh, you're not allowed to? No, because you know what? It's not meant to be a word where I failed or I didn't succeed with my word.

It's a word that's meant to mold you and shape you, and it's just part of the journey. But next year, there's a new word that's meant for you. So every year, there's a word that's meant to mold you and shape you. And it's just part of the journey. But next year, there's a new word that's meant for you. So every year, there's a word that's meant for you. And I can look back and see how these words have shaped my life. It was pray one year. And my wife's word was persevere. So she had persevere. I had pray because we have teenagers. So we said, somehow we'll get through this. That's funny. What would you tell your young self, your 23-year-old self? What have you learned over the course of this adventure that you've been on? I tell student athletes this all the time in college.

I say the one thing I would tell myself is don't worry. She's out there. You'll find her in terms of meeting my wife. So everyone's searching for love. There are young people that worry about that. They worry about meeting the one that they're meant to be with, and they do worry about that. So that would be one thing I would tell myself.

The other thing I would tell myself is what I've learned from Dr. James Gills, and I've shared this before in other places, but it's so powerful in being an ultra-athlete like you are. Dr. James Gills is the only person on the planet, I believe, who has completed six double Ironman triathlons.

Six double Ironman. Is he the only person still? I don't know. What's his name? Dr. James Gills. Yeah, I don't know. Maybe. Double Ironman.

Last time he did it, though, he was 59 years old. 59. That's awesome. Yeah. And he was asked how he did it.

And he said, I've learned to talk to myself instead of listen to myself. He said, if I listen to myself, I hear all the negative, all the fear, all the doubt, all the complaints. But if I talk to myself, I could feed myself with the words and the encouragement that I need to keep on moving forward. And just because we have a negative thought doesn't mean we have to believe it. See, I think that's one of the biggest challenges we face as athletes, as people, as human beings, is that when those negative thoughts come in,

we believe the lie that those negative thoughts tell. Because we're failing to draw the distinction between the thinking mind and the higher self, right? You have to become the observer of your thoughts. And once you can bifurcate and you go, oh yeah, my brain is telling me this but like i actually have a choice just because it's saying that i don't have to self-identify with that and where do those negative thoughts come from could be you know because your dad left you when

you were one i mean you know you can go down the rabbit hole with that forever those negative thoughts are spiritual those negative thoughts i've had a lot of conversations with with good friends who you know are spiritual people they're not thoughts. I've had a lot of conversations with good friends who are spiritual people. They're not religious. But I say, where do those negative thoughts come from? They say, the intellect. I go, what's the intellect? Where are those negative thoughts coming from?

They come from consciousness. And the duality of consciousness is there is love and there is hate. There is good. There is bad. At the highest level, there's just oneness. But at our duality level, there is good. There's bad. At the highest level, there's just oneness. But at our duality level, there is fear. And that fear is a liar. Those negative thoughts are lies. And the more you can help people observe those thoughts and see them for what they are and don't buy into them

and don't believe them, then you can move forward. You can speak the truth, feed the positive, and move forward. That's what the truth, feed the positive, and move forward. That's what I would tell myself in the past. How do you get people to come to that realization, though? I mean, what are the practices? Do you have people starting to, like, inventory and journal?

Or what is the tactics? The key is first awareness. Like, you first teaching this, like, sharing this with people, is so important. And it's one of the things I've shared with a lot of the professional athletes this year. So this is one of the key messages I was sharing. And it's like, wow, it really hits them. Like, yeah, those negative thoughts,

I don't have to believe them. Like, yeah, they're not, they don't come from me. Cause the minute you realize they're not coming from like you, you stop blaming yourself and you realize that it's a spiritual battle and you don't have to believe the lie. You can just continue to move forward. So I think first and foremost, but what you can do is write down, I heard on Mike Treve's podcast, he interviewed Jewel, the singer.

That was a great one. And she said, it was so great because I had been talking. She was amazing. Incredible. And she said she writes down her lies. She writes down her lies on the left side of the paper. She writes down her lies on the left side of the paper. She writes down the lies on the right side. She writes down the truth to those lies.

And I think we can all do that. Yeah, I think it comes down to taking control of the story you tell yourself about yourself. This is something I've talked about on the podcast many times. But we string together this narrative that's, you know, rooted in things that have happened to us or things that we, you know, claim to be true that aren't necessarily true. And then we live out that reality. And when you, when you start to write it down, you can go, wait a minute, like, I don't have to define myself by this, or maybe this isn't even true. And I have the power to re, you know, recalibrate that narrative and tell a different

story about myself. I love that. Donald Miller wrote a book called A Million Miles and A Thousand Years. It's one of my favorite books, A Million Miles and A Thousand Years. Oh, it's incredible. And it's about the fact that our life is like a movie. And every main character in a movie wants to achieve something. But in order to achieve something what they must overcome some sort of conflict some sort of adversity it's the main central thing to any great movie and so must weigh and so the story you tell yourself as you're going through the conflict as you're going through the adversity ultimately defines whether you continue to move forward to reach it so are we the victim or with a hero is our movie an inspirational tale or is it a drama

or a horror story? And I think ultimately the more we define our life as an inspirational tale, the more we see ourselves as the hero, not the victim, we get up

and we move forward. Victims get knocked down but what happens? They stay down and they complain. But heroes get knocked down like a victim but then they get back up and through adversity through the conflict they don't they create the future i like that man

that's beautiful well we got to uh we got to bring this energy bus into its parking spot here but uh it's a bit of a journey yeah no it's good it's it's been awesome um but i i always like to leave people with you know a little bit of wisdom or inspiration, you know, for the person who's listening, who just, who just feels stuck, you know, they're just, you know, they just can't see their way out of their current situation, which maybe isn't terrible, but ain't that great either. Like they're not living their best, most authentic life and, and, and they can't see where that exit hatch is and they just need that first step or you know a

little bit of guidance to kind of broaden their perspective and perhaps you know open up the the possibility for a better trajectory I think the best thing we can always share is truth and perspective and principle rather than say do this this and this because are going to be different for each person based on consciousness and based on what's meant for that person. But I always talk about the fact that we will all be pruned. If you go through life, you realize that you will be pruned like a tree. And if you've ever seen a tree that's been pruned,

it looks like it's been destroyed, but it hasn't been destroyed. The pruning is meant to help the tree grow more fully. And just like that tree, we get pruned, and it looks like we've been destroyed, but no, that circumstance, that event, that challenge, that setback is not meant to destroy you. It's meant to help you grow more fully. And your perspective and your mindset during the pruning, during the challenge, ultimately determines whether you will continue to keep on growing to become all that you're meant to be and to become more fully. So just being aware of that pruning, that it's part of the growth process.

I believe there's four stages to greatness. The preparation stage, the growth stage, well, the planting stage before the growth stage, planting, growth, and then the harvest. And so you have to go through the growth stage to harvest. You have to go through the pruning to go through the harvest. And it's going to be all part of your journey. Right.

And not be in a rush to just get to the harvest. Right. And to know that there are stages in life that you have to go through. And it doesn't mean it's the end. Don't say it's the end. Don't say it's the end. It's just a new beginning. So perspective and mindset, hopefully that leads you then to an action that you will take to better yourself and improve yourself. Whether it's a gratitude walk, a thank you walk, whether it's journaling, whether it's going for a run and starting to do

more exercise, getting yourself fit. For each person, it's going to be different. But ultimately, to do more exercise, getting yourself fit. For each person, it's going to be different. But ultimately, it's about becoming the best version of you. But ultimately, you have to know that this is just part of your growth process and part of your journey. And everyone has to go through it. No one goes through life unprudent. Yeah, I like that. I think, you know, for a lot of people, they feel bad about themselves because they don't know what they're passionate about or they don't feel like they have this sense of purposeful direction and they shame themselves. Yes. And I think it's okay to not know that. that you're in that pruning stage or you're in this gestation period and you're supposed to be contemplating this and wrestling with it

and trust that ultimately if you devote yourself to that process that you will ultimately figure it out and then emerge into that growth phase that precedes the harvest. And start to just live on purpose. You may not know what your bigger purpose is, but what I have found is

the more you start to live with purpose and live on purpose. You may not know what your bigger purpose is, but what I have found is the more you start to live with purpose and live on purpose and be intentional, a greater purpose starts to flow through you. So I call it your small why. Like your small why is like, okay, I'm just going to make a difference here. I'm going to go to the coffee shop and I'm going to impact that person in the coffee shop today. I'm going to make that person smile. I'm going to get on that bus. I'm going to see how many people I can interact with on the bus today and just make them laugh or maybe you're an introvert okay this is all extroverted thing but maybe you're an introvert and I'm gonna write something today that's gonna make a difference and I'm gonna send it to someone so start living with intention on purpose and I find that the

more you do that this bigger purpose that we're talking about starts to flow through you it's almost like the pipeline opens up and the bigger purpose starts to flow through you once you start living on purpose. Yeah, I think that's true. Yeah. That's a good way to, I think we parked the bus. All right. It's been a ride. Thank you so much. Great talking to you, John. I really appreciate it. Awesome, man. Keep doing what you're doing. Two books a year. Next time we sit together, Keep doing what you're doing. Two books a year. Next time we sit together, you'll have 35 books.

If someone's listening, what's the first book? If you're new to the listener, where do you suggest people? I always say just start with The Energy Bus. That's still the best-selling. It sells more than all my books combined, I think. Really? That's crazy. Wow. And I would just say

start there all about positive energy and they can visit me at john gordon.com j-o-n gordon.com yeah and you're on you're on twitter you're pretty active on twitter right yeah i love love to there love to tweet sometimes a little too much but i do like that to share positive messages i mean a lot of ideas will just come to me and i i tweet them out. Uh-huh. And you have any speaking gigs coming up? Or is that calendar up on your site? No. Or is that all private? Do you ever do, like, open to the public?

Some. Some events where they'll have the events. I don't put on my own events, but I'll speak at public events. But I'm going to the Horticulture Association of America, speaking in Columbus, Ohio. And then, yeah, coming back from there, I'm going to do the Rams on the 30th of July. So I'm looking forward to speaking to that team and then hopefully do some public events in the fall. Awesome, man.

Thanks. All right, man. Well, best of luck. Thank you. Come back and talk to me again sometime. All right. Next time we got to talk about our diets. Yeah, we should. Yeah, that would.

Yeah. To me, that's fascinating. And it's something that I think people need to eat healthier in this world. And what you're doing is so important. I mean, it's what excites me most about your work. I mean, you do an incredible work. You're so insightful on so many things. Like, wow.

But this is, our body is our temple. Yeah, it is. It's true. and I'm sure you see this I mean you mentioned it earlier when you go and you visit these professional athletes a lot of them are just not eating that well man and it's crazy these guys are Ferraris and they're putting you know junk in the trunk I feel like 10 20 years from now we're gonna actually realize that a lot of injuries are the result of the foods no question about that they're eating I

would love someone to be able to do a study to figure out like pulled muscles i guarantee are the results of different foods and food allergies that people are allergic to yeah i don't doubt it all right we'll come back and we'll have a whole food awesome all right man thanks we did it you're you're right you feel good i feel good all right cool feel great all right man peace plants yeah thank you awesome thank you cool thank you Feel great. All right, man. Peace. Plants. Yeah. Thank you. Awesome. Thank you. Cool.

Thank you. Good job, man. Thanks for having me. All right. We did a great conversation. I hope you guys got a lot out of that. I certainly did. It was a joy being able to connect with John in person and share his powerful message with

you guys today. One pretty wild thing, something that I thought would be worth mentioning is that after we wrapped the podcast and I was just sort of chatting with John as I was packing up all my gear, I discovered that George Boyardee, the young Cornell lacrosse player who unfortunately perished that we discussed in the conversation. And that is the subject of John's book, The Hard Hat. Actually went to my high school, Landon School in Bethesda, Maryland, which is sort of a perennial lacrosse powerhouse. So it seems my path with John is even more intertwined than I originally realized.

It's kind of an amazing, bizarre coincidence. In any event, there is a foundation set up in George's name. So if you want to learn more about George and his story and the work that the foundation is doing in his honor, you can check that out at boyardiefoundation.org. It's B-O-I-A-R-D-I foundation.org. And of course, for more on John, go to johngordon.com, J-O-N-G-O-R-D-E-N.com, no H in the John. He's also at j Gordon 11 on Twitter and on Instagram, and you can find them on Facebook, all those places. Give him a shout out, let him know what you thought of the podcast. Say, Hey, what's up? Uh, if you would like to

support this show and my work, there's a couple of ways to do it. Just share it with your friends and on social media, leave a review on iTunes, hit that subscribe button. That's big. Make sure your friends subscribe. That's huge too. We also have a Patreon set up for people who want to financially support my work. And thank you to everybody who has made that effort. It's quite incredible and I greatly, greatly appreciate it. Every week I send out a free weekly short email. It's called Roll Call, packed with tips and tools and resources, things I've come across over the course of the week. Usually a bunch of articles I read, a documentary I watched,

a new product that I'm enjoying. Just useful stuff. No spam. I'm not trying to make any money off this. There's no affiliate links in it. I don't profit from it at all. I did take a three-week break, but I did send one out yesterday.

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doing this, but I think it's really important. My podcast conversation with Scott Harrison from Charity Water was really impactful on me personally, and I know it was for a lot of you guys who are listening. And my call to action in the wake of that was to encourage all of you to join their monthly subscription service called The Spring. 100% of all monies received as a result of a monthly donation that you make goes entirely, 100%, towards providing clean water for people that don't have access to it. As a result of this call to action, we have now enlisted the support of the RRP community

to the tune of four wells per year. You guys have contributed to four wells per year. And my company is now chipping in by building an additional well every single year. That's our commitment. So that's five wells this year alone. But I think we can make it 10. I really want to make it 10. And I think that's a very doable goal because most of you have an extra 20 bucks or 30 bucks a month that you can donate for such an extraordinary life-changing payoff. So I want you to really think about the impact that you can have and how amazing it will feel to you to make that impact.

So make a donation to Charity Water via the spring, their monthly subscription service. To learn more, go to this very specific URL. It's important that you use this so they can track and know that you guys are coming to them through this podcast. Here's what it is. CWTR.org forward slash Rich Roll Spring. CWTR.org forward slash Rich Roll Spring. There's also, I'll put that up in the show notes and there's a banner on the episode page for this episode too. So you can click through that. And finally, I want to thank everybody who worked tirelessly to help put this episode on Jason Camiella for audio engineering and production. He also compiles the show notes and helps get

the WordPress page configured. He does a lot of work behind the scenes, Sean Patterson for help on graphics, all the cool motion graphics that you see, anything involving fonts and typeface and images. That's Sean. He does a great job. And theme music, as always, by Analema. Thanks for the love, you guys. See you soon. Peace and plants. Thank you.