The Rich Roll Podcast - Whitney Cummings Is Doing The Work

Episode Date: November 21, 2022

Whitney Cummings is a stand-up comedian, writer, actor, producer, and podcaster. You may know her from one of her five hilarious stand-up specials, her sitcom 'Whitney', as the co-creator of the CBS show '2 Broke Girls', or as host of the 'Good For You' podcast. Whitney’s charm and wit is legendary. But underappreciated is her knowledge and experience with mental health and emotional well-being—qualities earned from working through anxiety and and codependency disorders. All of this and more is chronicled in her hilarious and vulnerable book, 'I’m Fine …And Other Lies.' This conversation centers on mental health. We discuss codependency at length—what it is and what it isn’t—building self-esteem, creating confidence, navigating relationships, and healing from childhood trauma. We also talk about animal welfare, equestrian therapy, 12 step recovery, empathy, the importance of forgiveness, and tons more. Whitney is a blast. This episode is epic. I hope you enjoy it! Show notes + MORE Watch on YouTube Newsletter Sign-Up Peace + Plants, Rich

It's taken me a long time to learn that when you put yourself first, you actually are putting everybody else first. That is so anathema to the way that I was wired. But when you're not taking care of yourself, you haven't, you know, we say in Al-Anon that if you're upset about something and you want to take an action that could possibly not be a great contribution to your future self, stop, halt. The reason we forgive people,

forget about, but he owes me this, but he didn't. We forgive others not because they deserve forgiveness, but because we deserve peace. And also, I think that when we don't forgive our parents, forget molestation and actual crimes that were committed, but just this like, I grew up in a way and I was never taught about this. And I never got love for my dad and this and that. Like, if you're not forgiving your parents, I think at this point, you're a bully. It's really soothing to just be able to believe everyone, to just believe what like no one's kissing your ass. No one like it's just great. Everything you guys just did, whether I liked it or not, is true. And that is like the best feeling in the world. But you also have to tell the truth. The Rich Roll Podcast. Hey, everybody. Welcome to the podcast. My guest today needs very little introduction.

Whitney Cummings is an uber successful standup comedian. She's a writer, she's an actor, a producer, and host of the Good For You podcast. You most likely know her from one of her five hilarious standup specials, perhaps her sitcom entitled Whitney, or as the co-creator of Two Broke Girls, which ran on CBS for six seasons. But underappreciated, under-recognized when it comes to Whitney is her seemingly endless wisdom and endless passion when it comes to mental health. Earned through confronting and working through a past

marked with anxiety and a codependency disorder, both of which she chronicles with frank wit and humor in her book, I'm Fine and Other Lies. So no surprise, this conversation at times hilarious and perhaps somewhat a bit meandering in a good way, centers on mental health. We discuss codependency at length, what it is and what it isn't.

We talk about building self-esteem and confidence. We discuss how to navigate relationships. We talk about healing from childhood trauma. And we also discuss animal welfare, equestrian therapy, and just tons more. Whitney is a blast. It was super fun having her here. Her energy and her humor are infectious.

And in a surprising mid episode revelation, it turns out that we actually have way more in common than I originally thought. So before we get into it, a few words from the sponsors that make this show possible. that make this show possible. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time.

It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care, especially because unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices.

It's a real problem. A problem I'm now happy and proud to share has been solved by the people at recovery.com who created an online support portal designed to guide, to support, and empower you to find the ideal level of care tailored to your personal needs. They've partnered with the best global behavioral health providers to cover the full spectrum of behavioral health disorders, including substance use disorders, depression, anxiety, eating disorders, gambling addictions, and more. Navigating their site is simple. Search by insurance coverage, location, treatment type,

you name it. Plus, you can read reviews from former patients to help you decide. Whether you're a busy exec, a parent of a struggling teen, or battling addiction yourself, I feel you. I empathize with you. I really do. And they have treatment options for you. Life in recovery is wonderful. And recovery.com is your partner in starting that

journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care.

Especially because, unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. It's a real problem. A problem I'm now happy and proud to share has been solved by the people at recovery.com who created an online support portal designed to guide, support and empower you to find the ideal level of care providers to cover the full spectrum of behavioral health disorders, including substance use disorders, depression, anxiety, eating disorders, gambling addictions, and more. Navigating their site is simple. Search by insurance coverage, location, treatment type, you name it. Plus, you can read reviews from former patients to help you decide. Whether you're a busy exec, a parent of a struggling teen, or battling addiction yourself, I feel you. I empathize with you. I really do. And they have treatment options for you. Life in recovery is wonderful, and recovery.com

is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. Okay, I truly hope you enjoy this exploration inside the life, inside the mind of the truly unique and singular Whitney Cummings. Nice to have you here. It's nice to meet you. Thank you for doing this.

Thanks for having me. Yeah, I thought maybe it might not happen today. It did happen. I'm sorry. Don't apologize, no. Life happens. This will set, I figured if anyone would understand it would be you, that when people show up to your podcast,

you want them to be mentally 100%. You're brilliant, I'm a fan of yours. I didn't wanna bomb this and embarrass myself. And so I had a thing where I didn't sleep optimally. Do you want me to explain optimal sleep to you? I'm interested in that subject matter. The reason I'm late for your podcast is because I listened to your podcast

and I was told that getting quality of sleep in order to be optimal is huge for me because I realized the source of so many of the decisions I'm not proud of or the work I'm not proud of is I knew I was tired and I was like, I'll just white knuckle through it. When in reality, if I just slept eight hours, I could have got-

Yeah, you're a big napper too. You can do that. Huge napper. I actually try to break my days up into two days because I perform at night and it's a way to trick myself into thinking that the career choice I made is actually somewhat healthy. So I try to sleep every day from like four to five and break my day up into two days. And when you get up at five, how long does it take for you to shake off the grogginess and feel like you're yourself again?

See, that's the problem with me. If I go down like that, when I wake up, I'm just like, whoa. I hear that a lot. Would you ever have like a little coffee or a little tea or something after? Then I would be concerned that I wouldn't be able to sleep when I got home at night. Like I try to only drink coffee in the morning, although I'm having a little bit of coffee right now because I'm not used to doing podcasts this late in the day,

which is fine, it's good. But yeah, I try to limit my caffeine intake to the morning. Interesting, is there anything else that can perk you up? Like sometimes if I don't wanna do tea or coffee or something that I think is gonna sabotage me for my night's sleep, I'll sometimes just inhale a little bit of pine oil, sometimes clove oil, and if you just,

it really wakes you up. Oh, wow, I've never heard of that. There's also, I was just on Joe Rogan, and of course he's got the newest of the new. They're like smelling salts that are called ah. For just like consumer use, not for like waking somebody up who's like unconscious. I think that's what it's meant for,

but this is meant for like to get like a- Medical grade smelling salts just for like, if you need a little pick me up. Exactly. And there, I mean, it hurts. It's like you feel like you're drowning for a second and then you just have like a bunch of energy. I'm not sure if it's just the adrenaline

that it naturally triggers or the fear that you're about to die. I don't know what. Right. Yeah, I don't know if that would be a high recommend. You can try it. You can try it. I'll try anything once.

It's like brought to you by the guys who made the five hour energy drink shots that are in 7-Eleven. The packaging would need to sort of get more sophisticated. I think. What if we just both did that right now? This might go off the rails. I love it.

Do you feel a sense of excitement or a sense of frustration because you are so routinized? Does this feel weird or annoying? No, it's fine. I can roll with it. Fine. But I mean, listen, in the kind of panoply of like dysfunctions, like a lot of mine line up with yours.

So things like control or perfectionism, and this is the way it needs to have, like all of that kind of stuff. Like I've had a lot of growth around that, but still it kind of like, it creeps up like, oh, it's supposed to go this way. It's not going this way, you know, but my ability to kind of snap back

and, you know, deal with that kind of stuff is a lot better than it used to be. Totally, because I think that it's taken me a long time to, and I've, you know, been in a 12 step program called Allen on ACAA CODA as well. It's taken me a long time to learn that when you put yourself first, you actually are putting everybody else first.

That is so anathema to the way that I was wired. And I think most people are, but when you're not taking care of yourself, you haven't, we say in Al-Anon that if you're upset about something and you wanna take an action that could possibly not be a great contribution to your future self, stop, halt. Are you hungry? Are you angry?

Are you lonely? Are you tired? And if you're any of those things, you're not gonna be optimal. Your inner child's gonna be running the show and then you're gonna have shame afterwards, you know, and it's gonna corrode your self-esteem. So you're like, I didn't do that good of a job.

Why didn't I just ask to reschedule? Why did I do that? He didn't want me to come on his podcast brain dead. That's so disrespectful to him. So for me, just know that it was out of respect for you. Listen, I get it. I totally get it. I'm just happy that you're here.

I mean, the hungry, angry, lonely, tired thing is also a core tenant of AA as well. And I think about that a lot, but I think in the sort of codependency parlance, there's a strain of like narcissism that runs through it. Like the whole world revolves around like you and what you're doing. And it's like, oh, if I cancel, like he'll be devastated

or the world will stop spinning on its axis. Like there's a weird outsized ego piece to that that gets missed until you really start to deconstruct it. Well, cause it also, sometimes you just have to parse it out. I think in metaphors a lot and visuals, that's just how my brain works. Because if I start talking too much about something,

I start going, why are you using those big words? Like, why are you trying to impress him? And then I get my ADD takes over a little bit. So something with that, you know, that has really helped me is a couple adages. Like my brain really takes a corny aphorism and just does very well with it. And I think that because that's a big part of, you know,

12 step recovery programs, cause our brains want to overcomplicate everything. So when someone just distills something down of, it works if you work it and you're worth it, kind of rhymes, that stuff really works for me. Yeah, it's annoying, but it does work. It's so annoying. And if you're trying to give someone a tool like that,

who is not yet in the program, it just comes off dismissive, you know, and rude. And I'm better than you, but when you're sort of in it and really just need something to grab onto, like a refrain to almost like you're singing a song in your head, whether it's like the people that don't matter don't mind, and the people that mind that don't matter.

That's true. And something that is an alliteration, I don't know. It just works better for me for whatever reason. But in terms of the living out of obligation, I have to go to this thing and then I have to go to this thing. And if I don't go to this party, if this baby shower from someone I haven't even seen in 15 years. And then you also kind of hate yourself because you don't, you know, let's say you have low

self-esteem. I have to go or they'll be mad at me. That kind of like it sort of masquerades as low self-esteem. But what you're actually saying is like, if I don't go, they'll just cancel the party. Right. You know, so which is it? Are you insecure or are you a malignant narcissist? Well, there's a weird thing,

I've said this many times before, at least with alcoholics, I don't know how this shows up or presents in a codependent person, but this ability to simultaneously harbor this sense that you're a total piece of shit and the most worthless person on earth, and you're just smarter and better than everybody else.

And you can simultaneously harbor those two identities within you. So those both like kind of come into play in that thing. Like I've had a huge issue with that. And that goes to, it really goes to boundaries as well. Like boundaries for yourself and boundaries for other people. But that idea, yeah, like I have to say yes to everything

is a big indicator of low self-esteem, but also of huge aggrandizement of self. So, yes. So it helped me when I heard the sort of codependent 101 is I'm a piece of shit in the center of the universe. And I think that with self-esteem is something people talk about a lot. And this is something that nettles me quite a bit

because maybe it's just my comedian brain. Nettles. Nettles me. I like that word, go ahead. And because it doesn't make me angry. It just, it frustrates me when someone is so close to having the life they want, but there's just something that they are perseverating about

or can't seem to solve, which, you know, to me a big one is how do you develop self-esteem? You know, and that's something that, you know, I don't describe myself as someone that has, or began my life with a tremendous amount of self-esteem, but I do have a tremendous amount of confidence. So sometimes that seems confusing to people. So when you look at someone who's really confident,

it doesn't mean they have, you know, a good self-esteem for themselves. Healthy self-regard. Healthy self-regard at all, because you could have developed that confidence because you're so insecure that you're such a piece of garbage that you had to, you know, develop the ability to perform, the ability to contain a room, the ability to beguile people and distract people,

you know, and brag about yourself and get good at something. So I had confidence for a long time. So I would conflate it with self-esteem because I'd be like, wait a second, how could I have low self-esteem? Like I'm, you know, like really aggressively, you know, I'm the captain of my basketball team and I'm like, you know, performing and I'm in acting classes and I'm doing monologues and like, I'm clearly not shy, but in my personal life, there was this very corroded soul of very low self-worth. And if we want to talk about why we can, but something I have learned is that in the amount of time you complain about having low self-esteem and the amount of time you complain about having low self-esteem and the amount of time you complain

about how low your self-worth is, you could have done something to build your own self-esteem or self-worth. It's about building your own self-esteem by engaging in esteemable actions. So if you've looked at 15 memes today about love yourself, self-worth, like, I mean, I think that there's like a big confusion

about how it's actually- Well, because, I mean, that I think that there's like a big confusion about how it's actually- Well, because it's a verb, it only shows up through taking action. And really those actions generally need to be on behalf of the self. So you can develop that unconditional level of healthy self-regard that isn't contingent upon how good of a performer you are,

or you do it selflessly on behalf of another person. And through repetition of that type of behavior, where you get to a point where it's habitual, that's how you develop it over time. So I think the distinction between confidence and self-esteem lies in confidence can be, you know, a limited specific skill-based thing. Like you have confidence as a performer,

but how much of your decision to invest yourself in being a performer is really compensating for your low self-esteem. So you can wear it like a mask and feel confident in that regard. But when your head hits the pillow at night, you're like, yeah, I did that thing. But like they probably could see through it

or they know that I'm not worth anything or any of like all of that starts to- But that's not your voice. Whose voice is that? I think to me, and I was just listening to your podcast about the long path mindset, right? Yeah. And it just, it made me so, I was just so excited

because I've been on this, uncovering like family ancestry stuff, what I inherited, what guilt and shame isn't mine, what paranoia isn't mine, what anxiety is mine and isn't mine, and what did I inherit that's actually secretly an incredible gift that made me a superhero that I should stop complaining about and just alchemize it into money or whatever. And I think that once I switch that mindset of I didn't get this, I didn't get this, I only focus on what I did get. Cuz the other one didn't work for me very well.

It did when I entered into a 12 step program and started doing the steps and writing out. I remember in the amends chapter where you write all the people you owe amends to. So in AA, it usually looks something like I stole this guy's car, I gotta apologize. I stole this guy's drugs, I have to apologize. I cheated on this girlfriend, I gotta go to apologize. Ours are slightly different, our men's.

Our men's are usually like, no one owes me any apologies. I don't owe anyone apologies. Here's who I think owes me an apology. That's how we go into it. Well, alcoholics go into it with that mindset as well. The steps are a way of disabusing people of that idea. Like, you're a victim. Like I got wronged by all these people.

And you have to like go through the steps to understand and identify how you participated in all of those things that went wrong. I got wronged by all these people. So I did the obvious thing and started to just wrong myself. Right. Codependency is different because you're looking towards family ancestry.

And when you're a child, obviously you don't have culpability for however you were treated. Totally. And then the way that basically, a couple of things that I think might just be helpful in terms of like people saying, what is codependence? Cause I think a lot of people think of it as like, oh, people who just spend a lot of things that I think might just be helpful in terms of like people saying, what is codependence? Because I think a lot of people think of it as like,

oh, people who just spend a lot of time together, the guy and the girl who just like won't stop hanging out. It's usually defined a couple of ways that really helped me. Number one, the inability to tolerate the discomfort of others or perceived discomfort of others, right? Check, check over here. Check, check.

I never thought of myself as a codependent, but the more I learn about it, I was like, oh, I'm completely diagnosable as this, but over here. Check, check. I never thought of myself as a codependent, but the more I learn about it, I was like, oh, I'm completely, you know, diagnosable as this, but keep going. Anyone who's not a psychopath has some level of codependence. And I think that the, one of the most powerful things that I did was really study history.

That's a really cool thing. When, if you wanna sort of get in touch with your understanding of what your addictions are, whether it's gambling, as we know, gambling doesn't always have to be with actual chips and money, shoplifting, what's that? And alcoholism also, it took me a second to understand because I didn't see a lot of alcohol around me

when I was a kid, because it was all secret, it was furtive, it was in a different, it was in a Diet Coke can, it was in a coffee cup. And that wasn't really my experience. I would see my mom drink glasses of wine. I just thought we were rich. I didn't understand what was happening. I just thought like, oh, at eight o'clock,

you make dinner and pour a glass of wine and make sure she gets in bed okay. Life was going fine in a lot of ways. But a couple other things is that number one, in order for alcoholism to be present, alcohol doesn't have to be present. So alcoholism is defined by engaging in something despite negative consequences, right? Whether it's over organizing, cheating, sex addiction, love addiction,

obsession with things being clean and presence. There was a lot in my home, a lot of neuroses about gifts for other people. We're going to a party, you have to bring a gift. What can we wrap up from around the house? We can't use that tissue paper. You know I'm in recovery because I gave you a gift today with no tissue paper. That is codependent recovery.

But I see the healthy aspect of that is like, you didn't have to be perfect about it. Oh no. Yeah. I thought that was perfect. Right, it was perfect. See? Yeah. I was like perfectly authentic in what it was because the old way that my stinking thinking would be

is to be like, I can't, I have to stop by the papyrus and store and he likes to run and be outside. So let me get him a card with a runner on it. And then I'm gonna get the tissue paper that green to match his chair. Like I was just for what? Insanity. Because I didn't think I was enough.

I had to lead with something of value because that's how little value I thought I had. Right, because you just showing up without any of that would be inadequate. Or, let's get even darker. I wanted you to like me. I wanted you to think I was a nice person and I was trying to manipulate

one of the smartest people that I look up to. So a lot of it's that. That was manipulative though. Yes, totally. Can you just give me that back? I'll take it. Thank you. So that's the other thing about, you know, codependence

is that there's a little bit of a like, those people just seem like depressed, whiny, boring nerds and you know, whatever. So all the stuff that alcoholics do, I mean, again, let's just say with substances or people and narcotics, whatever. And they share and they're like, I got in this car crash because I was drunk driving

or I climbed into my girlfriend's window because I did meth and I thought she was cheating and then I fell like, I got in this car crash because I was drunk driving. Or I climbed into my girlfriend's window because I did meth and I thought she was cheating. And then I fell off and I got arrested. And then Al-Anon's a codependent sitting in the back of the room of like a double winners. And we're like, we do that sober. Right. Like we do all the same insane behaviors.

And you can't get an out or point to the substance as the excuse. Well, for us, it's the internal drug cabinet. It's the adrenaline, the cortisol, and the hit that we get from chaos. So some of it, of course, is gonna be epigenetic imprinting in utero. Whatever chemicals that your mother was emitting in utero

was getting you addicted to those chemicals, the same way you would be addicted to opioids and an Appalachia if you were in the tummy of a mother that was taking opiates. Thanks, Purdue. I have umbrella insurance, so I can say that. Do you have personal liability insurance? I don't know, probably.

You might wanna get it if you have me on your show. And so epigenetically, you can come out of the womb addicted to chaos and drama, like right out of the gate, as if you were a crack baby, mom was addicted to crack, whatever it is. So even as a child, I was like subconsciously always like trying to get on the moving escalator. I was just always trying to like getting in the knives, like whatever I could to get that adrenaline because adrenaline turns into dopamine. So a lot of us don't even understand how addicted to adrenaline we are and how we put ourselves in situations that's gonna get us that hit. Whether it's that toxic relationship, that job we hate,

it might even be being a fan of a football team that sometimes wins, sometimes doesn't. I love them because sometimes I'll be mad and sometimes I'll be happy, but like at least I know I'm gonna get that hit of adrenaline. Yeah, you feel alive. You feel alive. And that's the big thing when you get sober,

you just think your life, because you're gonna crunch that curve down and you're not gonna have the high highs and the low lows. So you just think, well, life's gonna suck. And it really, you know, basically is like a mirror for how much we're captured by those swings. And this also might be something that was a train that left the station 200 years ago and it really behooved your ancestors to behave like this.

And now it just doesn't behoove you. So now you're just have a bunch of tools in your toolbox that you're using like and I think it's just about updating your software. It's just about going from 1.0 to 2.0. I don't need these tools anymore. Wait, actually, even though I developed this tool to calm down my mom who was screaming, for example, like that worked really well. It doesn't work, you know,

but it might work well for this other thing if I just tweak it. Like, I think that when we look back at our child and we go, that was trash, that was a nightmare, it broke me. I believe that anyone that's grown up, you know, adversity, dysfunction, I maybe towards the end of the podcast

can make my case of people that were raised in quote, perfect homes are the craziest people I know. But I'll- We'll put a pin on that to come back to it. Well, here's the thing. All my friends that grew up in these homes that I was so jealous of when I was a kid, I was like, this is like Mayberry.

It's like their mom is here, their dad is here. They have like picnic blankets and stuff. 40 years later, they're like, oh, my dad had a secret wife in Pensacola. And I'm like, I told you there was a catch. More often than not, yeah. But, or you get this other form of quote, let's just say trauma.

I know it's a very trendy word right now, but that you saw a quote, perfect couple that loved each other. And then, so now you can't pair bomb with other people because you're comparing it to your, the parents that you saw. It was super copacetic. So I do see a lot of people who are just like,

I don't know, I want what my parents have. It's like, that's not possible anymore. That was possible before phones and computers and Facebook. Yeah, but this idea of really getting a broader picture of your heritage, like back to the long path idea is a much healthier way of thinking about your parents. I mean, it's just, you gotta let go of the resentment, right?

Like you gotta have to, you have to forgive, you have to sort of step into a sensibility of grace with that. And that's the kind of building block to what you just described, which is like regarding them as doing the best they can and giving you these superpowers that you have and understanding that they were playing out

narratives and behavior patterns that they inherited and they were trying to do the best that they can. And it allows you to just kind of breathe a little bit easier about the whole thing, rather than just grinding on a resentment over and over and over again, and then perpetuating the same unhealthy behavior pattern time and time again.

And I think a lot of people don't understand. It took me a minute too, because it was like, didn't really compute that when you have a resentment against someone else, it's like drinking poison and waiting for the other person to die. You're harming yourself. You're harming yourself.

It's actually selfish to forgive people. And the reason we forgive people, forget about it, but he owes me this, but he didn't. We forgive others, not because they deserve forgiveness, but because we deserve peace. And also I think that when we don't forgive our parents, forget molestation and actual crimes that were committed, but just this like, I grew up in a way

and I was never taught about this and I never got love from my dad and this and that. If you're not forgiving your parents, I think at this point, you're a bully. Because I used to really revolve my life around my bad childhood. It was my thing. It was my brand. I could trauma bond with people. I was able to kind of control people because they felt bad for me. I was able to blame that when I was making irresponsible, selfish, childish choices. And when I realized like, you really got to call yourself out, you got to tell on yourself. And what I do in my program is a lot of like checking your motives, you know, like what you said before, like I had to go, okay, I'm going to bring this gift,

which is a real gift, by the way. No secrets, no lie. I can't like- I appreciate the honesty. I can't carry secrets. I don't. Life gets so much better when you stop having secrets. You have so much more energy. You don't have to like remember what you said last time. And there's an exercise that an organization does,

not Scientology, but it's sort of like a, kind of a 12 step like bootcamp thing that asks everybody in the audience on their first group meeting, they say like, how many of you are you mad at your parents? And everybody raises their hand. And then they go, what if I told you that your parents only job was to keep you alive?

How'd they do? And everyone's like, maybe that's too extreme, but it is just a different way to change your perception. So it's like, in Al-Anon, CODA, the same thing of it is a disease of perception, right? I have a disease where I see things in a way that really helped me stay calm as a child. My dad didn't come home. Well, I'm an ugly, stupid idiot

and I gotta be in my report card. Of course, he's gonna come home. That worked for me at the time. So, because'm an ugly, stupid idiot. And I got to be in my report card. Of course, he's gonna come home. That worked for me at the time. So, because if we say, oh, well, my dad, you know, just doesn't like, is irresponsible. Like a child can't handle that. So you have to blame yourself because it's just kind of an easy, you can control it.

Well, that was my fault. So if I just achieve more next time, he will come home. And we stay, and it's not true. It's doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result and sanity 101, but there's a point where I think I realized that the more responsibility I took for my own bad choices, tricky thoughts, judgmental thoughts, instinct to gossip,

just loving it, the more miserable my life was. Like when I decided on this like radical accountability, zero blame, my life got so much better. And if you really study, if you're mad at your parents, you just don't know enough about history. Study the region they came from, study their ancestors, study where they came from, study all of this. You know, it's like, and also look at your phobias.

You know, when you see like people that are like, you know, histrionic about worms or snakes or bugs or stuff like that, I know, it's like, and also look at your phobias, you know, when you see like people that are like, you know, histrionic about worms or snakes or bugs or stuff like that, I'm kind of just like, something happened. Sure. And you got that somewhere, you know, whether it was your great-great-grandfather

fell off a cliff, your family's clumsy and you should know this, you know? The more that I steep myself in all of these worlds, the more clear it is that almost everything tracks back to childhood trauma. Like I had this guy, Paul Conti in here recently, that episode hasn't gone up yet, but like, oh, you would love this guy.

Like he's like this, you know, world leading expert on trauma or like Gabor Mate, like all of these things, like what gets imprinted on you at a very early age becomes the dictator of basically all of these things, like what gets imprinted on you at a very early age becomes the dictator of basically all of your, you know, strengths and weaknesses. And then developing an understanding of that to untangle the behavior patterns that no longer serve you

becomes like this life work. Yeah. That a lot of people never stumble upon because they never reach a pain point or an inflection point that is dramatic enough to get them to shift. So I think a lot of people are just operating in a low grade level of semi unawareness that's driving so many of the behavior patterns

that are leading their lives astray or preventing them from kind of optimizing you know, optimizing who they are. I completely agree. And I also see a little bit of this self obsession with people's trauma where it's like, I just wanna talk about it and re-embed it. Well, it becomes an identity and that's its own victimhood.

And I want this to define me. I want everyone to know about it. I wanna be viewed by the world as a victim because then I can control people. It's a way, you know, it's a survival mechanism to stay safe. But for me, about five, six years ago, I stopped being like overly sharing, you know, with the stuff that happened to me

because I would go and then this happened and people go, oh no. Like, and then you get feedback from what is entertaining to other people or engaging about other people or makes them in your mind like you more. So I find myself really resisting sharing about that all the time,

because I also think there's a matter of like, once you solve a problem, like it also, you can solve things privately and then you can do like living amends. You don't have to tell everyone about everything all the time. It's a way to ensure that in the future, you're gonna have a stand.

Or just making sure that when you're sharing about it, it's more about solution than the drama of the facts of the experience. Are you just sharing it with strangers? Right. Or are you being of service to other people who you talking about it to them will help them? Yeah, but it is empowering to talk about these things

and give voice to it, which is, you know, that's one of the main reasons I wanted to have you here because you're so open about this. And I think it gives, you know, that's one of the main reasons I wanted to have you here because you're so open about this. And I think it gives, you know, people who are watching or listening permission to be a little bit more reflective about their own histories and maybe realize there's something there

that they weren't looking at and that it's okay to explore that and hopefully at some point heal it. And have an understanding for me, there's some like neurological hygiene, I think that also has been really helpful to me of treating what you consume mentally the same way you treat what you consume food wise. There are certain things that I know,

like if I watch this, then it's gonna kick. I know how this ends. And really the miracle of doing the 12 step program work is about being able to make choices only that are a positive contribution to your future self. And the idea is every day I'm like playing defense on future shame because happiness is not a word that I just use. It doesn't work for me. It puts too much pressure on me. It's too vague. use. It doesn't work for me. It puts too much pressure on me. It's too vague. But I know that when I go to bed, when I'm doing my 10 step, if I feel pride in the way I behaved all day, I feel good. That's what happiness is to me is pride. So I will engage in a behavior and go like,

am I going to be proud of this in two days? Am I going to be proud of this text? Am I going to be proud of the way I behaved? And that's sort of my life hack of what I found that works. But then do you find yourself rewarding yourself for that by then indulging in something maybe you might not be proud of? You know, like I'm gonna binge this terrible show or whatever, you know, I'm talking about like relatively benign things, but stuff that, you know,

like as they say, the road gets narrower, right? So it's like, well, I can't keep doing that thing anymore. Or like, I gave up all these other things. Like, do I really have to give up this thing too? Come on, like, let me have a little bit of fun over here. Yeah, no, I mean, that I do somewhat, I really have my, I have a pretty like rigid yet wildly flexible sort of schedule of things that I do

to make sure that my internal needs are met. Cause one of the first things I heard was happiness is an inside job, which was mind blowing to me that it wasn't everyone's job in the room to make sure I was okay at all times, even though I'm such a people pleaser. I was trying to make sure, you okay? Do you need anything? Like your waitress, wherever you go, but you're not really, can I help you clean up? You don't really want to clean up. Is that a real offer? Or are you just trying to make people like you? What is this performance? And I think that codependence,

if I could just jump back a little, it'd be super specific. Codependence are people who define themselves through their ability to be productive for others or useful to others. We basically grew up in a situation where we had to be precocious, probably very young. It's usually the second child, third, fourth, fifth, someone that had to raise themselves.

Someone had to be too mature, too early. So then they have an overdeveloped responsibility as adults to other people. So a lot of it is like before you solve the problem, first make sure it's your problem. That's a trick you want. And then you look at your motives for whatever you're doing. I'm going to this bachelor party. I'm like, do I really want to go to this? Am I doing this out of obligation?

If I'm doing this out of obligation, that's gross to do to the other person. Because anyone that is truly a friend of mine, we have an authentic, actual, intimate connection, you know, as friends, I'm lying. My behavior is showing up and lying. We really focus not on what we say. It's about the choices we make and the behavior we make. So I would never want someone that I'm friends with to come to something out of obligation and be like, oh my God, why am I going to that?

Like, I would never want that. So that's gross. And that's all between you and your spirit. Because I think that's what slowly breaks our spirit when we force ourselves to do things that we don't want to do. Because we assume that we project onto them, you're gonna be as punishing as this person, you're gonna be as mean as this person,

you're gonna keep score like this other person, it has nothing to do with that person. Right, and your worldview is that everything is conditional in your life. Everything has a price. And everything is teetering on disaster at all times unless you like sort of do that right behavior. But that's us and it's your job to heal yourself.

I know that's, that is my, as soon as I started thinking that way, and as soon as I started saying like, why doesn't someone just invent a time machine to change my childhood? Like, what did I think was gonna happen? You know, I think you get to a point where you're like, I've tried all these things.

Blame just doesn't work. Obsession doesn't work. Silently seething doesn't work. Complaining all day doesn't work. You know, let me just try this whole, you know, grant me the seren strength to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change, and the wisdom to know the difference.

So there's a lot of things I have power over. But I remember early on in a meeting, a woman talked about how when she's not clear on what is and isn't her responsibility, because codependents, we tend to be the people that are like, what do you need? I need a doctor. Let's call Whitney.

Oh, who's that dentist? Call Whitney. I like love to be useful. Want to entrench myself in your life because ultimately you'll abandon me. So I have to find ways to put my hooks in you, you know, and being helpful and useful. It's like, I've got your insulin.

Where are you going to go? You know, it's kind of all of it is fear of being abandoned. And it all came with a scorecard. You know, I dropped off've got your insulin. Where are you gonna go? You know, it's kind of, all of it is fear of being abandoned. And it all came with a scorecard. You know, I dropped off flowers for your wife. And then I brought you this thing for your kids. You didn't ask for any of that. And then my birthday comes up and Rich doesn't, I went, I dropped off.

You're the only one keeping score though. But yeah, a hundred percent. And then I'm destroying my relationship with you because I did a bunch of nice, nice people pleasing as a form of assholery. The nice thing that I did had strings attached, you know, but today I had no, you know, because I didn't pay for it or buy it for you. I don't, I did the least, you know, and that's sometimes how you keep a relationship strong and your connection to yourself because you're also betraying yourself. You're lying to yourself and you're performing. And I found that I got to a point in my life

where someone asked me, a sponsor I was working with said, when you look in the mirror, do you look in your eyes? And I was like, such a weird ass LA, Scientology, what is it? Am I getting a pamphlet? And I realized I look in the mirror and I just, and the first, never, never, never, never. Because I was so disconnected to myself because I was betraying myself all day long.

And lying to other people, myself with my actions, my behaviors, guilt-based decisions, mothering, martyring, micromanaging. Which those are the three M's, which is, it could be fathering, micromanaging, martyring, whatever it is. It's just basically you're constantly trying to rescue people, help people, fix people, solve problems that aren't yours with your overdeveloped sense of responsibility. And I remember I just was like, yeah, I'm everyone's assistant or it's my job to fix everyone, save everyone,

which is part of the reason that Al-Anon's, whereas an alcoholic might be addicted to alcohol and Al-Anon might be addicted to the chaos created by that alcohol. I feel like we need new terminology because when you say alcoholism, you immediately think of alcohol. You said earlier, like you don't need alcohol present

for alcoholic behavior, but to your point, like it's not about alcohol. Like it needs a new term. I mean, maybe just addiction in general, right? And like Al-Anon and codependency is generally thought of in this reductive sense of enabling alcoholic behavior. Which is essentially when something stops being a choice, right?

Like that's a definition that really works for me, whether it's you're masturbating at work in the bathroom or you're working on your computer till one in the morning and then it's two and you're, if you're working on your computer till one in the morning, and then it's two, and you're, if you, or what are your behaviors, any of them, when it stops being a choice, is right, defined as an addiction. I think I'm just a little bit sensitive to,

I would love to know what you think, because the addiction to the phone, the addiction to the Snapchat, all this stuff, that's alcoholism, you know, on some level, but it is masquerading as something else, because, and then once you get, it's whack-a-mole, right? Once you get the drinking under control, the eating comes up. Once the eating comes up, the sex comes up. Once the sex goes down, the porn comes up, whatever. Addict just, I guess, has been used for so long as a negative term. And I believe that addicts

have superpowers that a lot of people don't and are usually hypervigilant, just very smart. You can't get away with your alcoholic behavior if you're not wildly smart. You have to be crafty and cagey to perpetuate that behavior over a long period of time. But I think, yeah, I think that there's, it's certainly not a referendum on intelligence. Like it applies equally to everybody,

no matter how you were brought up or who you are. And my whole thing with addiction is that it lives on this massive spectrum. So we think of it as alcoholism or drug addiction or gambling. We have these little buckets for it. But I think movies like The Social Dilemma and the relationship that,

the sort of fraught relationship that we all have with our phones now is making people realize like, oh, we're all captive on some level. And we all sit somewhere along this spectrum. And maybe it doesn't interfere with your life that much for a certain sector of the population. And then way over here, you're living on Skid Row

and you can't, like it's, but I think a lot of us sit somewhere in the middle. And whether it's, I can't put my phone down, I can't stop scrolling, or as soon as I get activated by a text or an email, I have to respond immediately, or I keep dating the same kind of person and having the same kind of result.

Like all of these things are alcoholic slash addictive behaviors. And the more that we can become self-aware of what's driving us and where it's leading us, I think we're in a better position to heal those wounds and find better strategies for life. So it's really, it's a very universal condition, I think. And that's kind of the drum

that I'm always banging with this. And maybe it's just me because I've spent so much time with family members in rehab and sponsoring people and stuff. And maybe this is just the people that decide to go to the meetings and reach out. And I'm always like, I always start with, this person might just be too damn smart to get this,

which sounds crazy. Intelligence does not serve you in recovery. And most of the addicts, if we're gonna say that for now, I say superheroes, whenever I meet them, I'm like, oh, you were just smarter than everyone. That's why you didn't feel understood. You're just more sensitive than ever. You just have all these superpowers and you wanted to dull yourself. You wanted to check out of your own brain, you know, is usually, so when I'm working with someone new,

a sponsor or something, it's like, it's almost like you've been overdeveloped with, you know, certain things. And some people just, you know, the way that, I think it was Margaret Cho was just on my podcast and I was reading about her when she went into rehab. She said something so perfect that made me just fall in love and relate to anyone that's ever used substances to dull their brains. She's like, I just didn't wanna care anymore.

I just wanted to stop caring for like a day, you know? I just wanted to stop caring about what people thought, you know? I just want to stop caring about what people thought about me. Well, that's where the addictive behavior is the solution to the problem. It's not the problem, it's the solution. And it works or we wouldn't do it, but then at some point it stops working, right?

And we keep doing it. That's the problem. So in relationships, whether it's drug addiction or codependence or Al-Anon, it's tricky because, you tricky because your problem is you and the fact that you gravitated towards this situation and found it to, you thought this person was your soulmate because they were giving you all this chaos and drama

or this person is such a mess in their life that it makes me feel superior, even though I'm just less of a mess than the person in active addiction. So it gives you like, you know, this arrogance of like, he doesn't even know his AT. Oh, now I have to go learn Spanish to talk to the drug dealers. Oh, I guess I'm just a hero angel.

Right, and that's what you needed to, you know, to kind of solve that wound that you have inside yourself. I just got high off self-righteous indignation. Thank you, person in active addiction. I just used you to get my hit. Right. You know, so it's just this really toxic, you know, surreptitious. It's, Al-Anon is very insidious because a lot of it masquerades as kindness. You know, when I was in the throes of my codependent behavior, if someone asks you, what's Whitney like? They'll

say, she's the nicest. She drives everyone to the airport. She doesn't even know. Like you would go, that sounds sick. But it's pathological kindness, we like to say, pathological thoughtfulness as a way to let you know how thoughtful I am. Right. So what was your breaking point with all of this?

Like how did you get ushered into the rooms? I had a family member going to rehab because also the wild thing, probably very similar to work addiction, is that codependence is incredibly rewarded. It is incredibly rewarded. You are so useful. I played sports really competitively.

I was always the first person to get there, the last person to leave. Like I was- Hello. Yeah, totally. Just mostly because you guys organized this wrong. Yeah. You know, we think we're right about everything

because we had- I had an alcoholic coach who was less reliable to make it to mornings from practice. So I had the keys to the pool. And that is a form of trauma that most people wouldn't categorize under trauma, but it was like- And I was proud.

I was like, yeah, I'm reliable. I will be there. I will make sure that everybody gets in. We're gonna have mornings from practice. Which goes, oh, the authority figure isn't reliable. I'm on my own. So as soon as- And that drives the control issues and the perfectionism.

Because you have great data that you should have the keys, you know? That's the tricky part is when someone's like, you're mothering, you're micromanaging. Well, you guys suck at this. There's also a tricky one, because it's like, well, I am better at this than you are, maybe not for the right reasons, but I am, you know?

So then you get to a point where you just go, it's not about that, you know? And then when you're leading 200 people, there's no time to act like that. And it turns out when you think that you're helping someone or helping them save time, you're just patronizing them. And you're like telling them, I don't trust that you can do this,

so I'm gonna do it myself. But the guy's just, oh, you know, I'll do it for you. Oh, I got it. No, no, I got it. No worries, you go home. But you're really just saying, I don't like the way you do things. I'll just martyr myself and do it and then start to hate you

and not even give you a chance, frankly. Right. You know, because we were proven wrong as a kid. It was very hard to trust other people to do things. I had a really brutal family member of mine went into rehab and I was, you know, there 24 seven, did the intervention, bringing the Nutri-Grain bars, bringing the, you in the athletic greens,

just there every single day. What do you need? Can I get you a sweatshirt? Do you need new shoes? Do you need a comforter? I mean, I was just there all day, every day while I was doing two television shows simultaneously. And someone pulled me aside, my now therapist, who was the family therapist there. She specializes in neuroscience of addiction, childhood trauma, et cetera, et cetera. And she's 30 years sober. She's amazing. And she came up to me and she was just like,

hey, so, you know, you're just killing this person faster. And I was like, you know, but, and of course I had guilt about what happened to both of us as kids. You know, what happened to her? And I just wanted to fix it with my love. And that's not how neurology works. That's not how-

Younger than you? Older. Older. Interesting. You know, and so we both have sexual abuse in our past, which is a very, once you really get a handle on that, a lot of behavior starts to make sense and you start to go, oh, wait a second, all these things I do,

I could actually kind of like reroute to be incredible tools to give me a giant advantage. Like I actually think I have a giant advantage because of all these things. Like let me just perceive it that way. So for the longest time I perceived my trauma as exactly what it was, the trauma I didn't block out, which we can talk about later or repress or completely disassociate from, but I perceived it as trauma and as a liability. And I have two broken legs and a broken brain. And then as soon as I changed my perception on it, I was like, oh my God,

I was like gifted all these wild superpowers. I'm just using them wrong. So once I was able to do that, my life got pretty awesome, but it took 14 years in Al-Anon and still sponsoring and still super involved. So when that therapist was like, you're killing yourself or you're actually killing this person that you love more quickly.

Because you're not giving them the dignity of their own experience and they can't grow if you do everything for them. Well, and you're slowly killing yourself trying to solve a problem that's not your problem to solve, right? Correct. But when that lands like a ton of bricks,

like does that ring a bell in you and say, I need to go to Al-Anon? Or like, how did you like walk into your first meeting? Well, cause then the first thing I did was I went to the person. I was like, am I killing you? Like, is this bad? Should I not give you a hundred dollars every day

for whatever you need for groceries? And of course- Yeah, but you're asking the unreliable narrator. Like, of course they're gonna say, keep doing that. Does the drug addict need cash in rehab? Yeah. So I did the, you know, cardinal mistake, which I went back to the person and I was like,

I just talked to her and she doesn't, she thinks it's fine when I'm doing it. Like, and she was like, okay, so. That's hilarious. I'm like, I'm a hero and I get, I don't think you understand. Okay. Like I'm handling this. I've got it. And she said to me, she goes, you know, there's a program that, you know, is worth going to. I'd love to take you some time. And, you know, I was like, why, why would I need a program? She's the one that won't stop drinking. Come from the same household, cut from the same cloth. Had the birth order been reversed, it would have just... And she goes, well, I just

watched you go to the problem for the solution. And I was like, yeah, that's how you get a solution. I was like, you sober people are just... You don't get it. You know what I mean? I saved, I'm very busy person. I don't, so her whole thing was like, no, if you have a, if your problem is someone else's behavior, you go to a program for the solution because the solution might be do nothing. The solution might be do not a damn thing because we're so addicted to taking an action.

But that doesn't compute. Does not compute. So then I was like, okay, I'm gonna go to this meeting so I can figure out how to get her sober. Well, that's the equivalent of like, I'm gonna go to AA so I can figure out how to continue to drink without being an alcoholic. It's totally ridiculous.

And so, no, or people that are like, I shoplift bad, but I'm just going to the gambling 12-step programs because it's basically a gambling addiction at the base of it. It's like, well, you're not, okay. But yes, the lies we tell ourselves and the delusions. And look, I had a ton of proof that I was a super high function as a perfectionist,

as a micromanager and as a martyr. I had gotten a lot of- Which makes it harder because the world is smiling upon you and you're being wildly rewarded for these unhealthy behavior patterns that you're blithely unaware at some behavior patterns that you're blindly unaware at some point are really gonna derail you at best and might actually kill you.

Sometimes we're hurting people in ourselves and we don't even know it, cause we're just zombies and it always worked for us before. And I went in to my first 12 step Al-Anon meeting, ACA, adult child of alcoholics is the focus, which basically means you grew up in a home with addiction, let's say, to anything. And I went in and I was so bored. I was like, these people, I now look back and I can say, oh my God, all these people actually had self-worth and self-care

and that's why they were doing these things. But I was like, this guy's eating a salad. Like, why are you in pajamas? Like, I was just like, what is this? I was like, this guy's eating a salad. Like, why are you in pajamas? Like, I was just like, what is this? I was like, this is like a bunch of slobs complaining, you know, and then there were all the rules. And I was like, God, how dumb are these people that you have to sit through all these rules? Like, wait, can we just get to it? And then every time someone would speak where it didn't apply to me,

I would just like tune out or like get on my phone. Looking for the differences. Totally. I was like, oh no, no, no. If you guys aren't only talking about me, like I'm at, it was just, and then they, I was like, okay, I get it. I did get it in that meeting because someone said people pleasing is a form of assholery that clicked. And then the speaker that day opened with, I have good news and bad news. The good news is the war is over. The bad news is that you lost.

So now it's just about picking up the pieces. Like that's great news. The Damocles sword fell, now let's just pick up the pieces. You know, and that to me was like, I know how to do that. Being in delusion about whether something is going well or bad, that is confusing to me. Cause I can convince myself of anything.

You know, I think that helps me as a comedian to be able to see both sides of everything and empathize with every facet of something. But I heard that and I was like, okay. And then I went to another meeting and also- That was enough to get you to go back. Well, also, it was hilarious. And there were these deep belly laughs

that I had never experienced. Or were you thinking like, I can get some good material here? It wasn't even that. It was in a very Hollywood way. I love that people think I'm so Hollywood. I live right down the street from you. No, but I know, I know.

But like, did you go, like when I got sober, the, all the meetings I went to were like- Sundowners. Yeah, of course. I've been to all of those. No, that's where I went to try and date musicians. Sure. They were vulnerable. It's good for that actually. Oh, I'm aware. Yeah, Melrose. I've been to all of those. No, that's where I went to try and date musicians. Sure. It's good for that actually. Oh, I'm aware.

Melrose and Mansfield. Yep, log cabin. Sure. Just gone now, I think. That's where I got sober and I was there every morning for years. I must say, thank God this podcast exists so people can hear this everywhere.

But Southern California is an incredible place for recovery, truly. I'm so grateful. like the community of people that I was able, I mean, I needed all new friends, right? And I was in a city where there were just tons of young, cool people who were sober and really into recovery and would like love going to meetings and it was unbelievable.

Like my first couple of years of just going from meeting to meeting, to meeting and meeting all of these amazing people who've become like my closest friends. By the way, amazing people. People are always like going from meeting to meeting, to meeting, and meeting all of these amazing people who've become like my closest friends. By the way, amazing people. People are always like, I have a meeting like in a church, abandoned church. I'm like, which a lot of people have God stuff,

you know, of like, God, what's this? So I usually will go with people to their first meeting. Cause I'm like the God thing, just don't worry about it. Like, it's just not God. Just all you need to believe in this is that you aren't God. Do you know what I'm saying? If you can say that you're not God and you can't change people. Forget about the word God altogether and, you know, use higher power or whatever you want and just think, well, this group of people has more power than me because they figured out something that like I have trouble

figuring out. And why are you looking so badly for an excuse to not do this? That's the key. Just look at that. The God thing's weird. That's the thing that is your pain, you know what I mean? So it's sort of- That's the main thing for most people that prevents them from walking through the door. And everybody has all of these preconceived ideas

about what it is and what it isn't. And a lot of that is driven by media, what they've seen in movies and television or some family member that wasn't able to get sober through the program or whatever, which is why I have like, I mean, I'm interested in your perspective on this. Like, what is your relationship as a public person

with respect to the tradition of anonymity and how you talk about this kind of stuff? Because we've been talking about this for an hour, right? Yeah, okay. And like, I am always battling with that a little bit because had I known what I discovered when I came into the meeting, I might've come in earlier and I understand the importance of anonymity

and I would never divulge, you know, the specifics of who was there or what was said, but I can still evangelize the benefits of it generally. And I think that that is a net positive, although I'm never sure kind of where that line is because I wanna encourage people who are struggling to check it out, right? And to do that, you have to sort of characterize it

as something aspirational. I love this question. I love this question. I love this question, especially because I just felt myself getting a little defensive, which is, so obviously this is something I've been kind of grappling with in some way, even if I haven't talked about it much,

because there is, you know, in these programs, in Al-Anon, the idea is you always keep the person anonymous, always, always, always, not only because it's no one's business who it is and doesn't matter. But also it could put the person that is in that program and a lot of danger. If you're not allowed to call and leave messages or voicemails on someone else's voicemail machine to be like, hey, is your alcoholic husband still beating you?

Cuz they could hear that and it could put the person in danger. So that is a lot of the anonymity stuff also, clearly in public, you don't want people to know anything you're doing in private, that's not fair. So I would never out someone else's anonymity, but I think for

me personally, and I think that the leaders of the day need to make sure that things that leaders from 50 years ago decided was a great rule that we just like keep looking at them and go, is that still the case? Is that still the case? Because we've got things like kids shooting up schools and we've got a real mental illness crisis. Should we still keep this secret? Is it still, for me, I'm a little bit reckless and I also, I just don't lie. That's something that works for me.

And I think that if anyone was struggling the way I was struggling to not talk about this program, which is also free medicine in a country where there's just not any free medicine. Let's, to be frank, like it's kind of a fucking miracle that it exists and it thrives and it helps so many people and it's free and it's full of people. Like where else in the world can you walk into a room

totally broken and have a community of people come to your aid and help you and not want anything in return? It's fucking amazing. There's also nothing more healing in general. I encourage every, I mean, I'm not trying to tell everyone like, hey, you're all, you all qualify for this. It's a self-diagnosed disease,

but we all come from this. You know, we all come from, if you, again, read history books, you know, we were a hundred years behind us was prohibition. I mean, they had to outlaw alcohol in this country. I know there's the real side of the story is so black people probably couldn't vote as much.

You know, there's a lot of sketches. That's a different podcast. That's a different podcast that I'm not gonna weigh in on. But there's a lot of sketchy reasons that prohibition happened, obviously. But, you know, alcoholism in this country and, you know, in the countries we immigrated from

were just a very, I mean, I looked into my ancestry to try to solve some problems or unearth some sort of engines in me that aren't relevant to my current life. And half my ancestors died of cirrhosis, I mean, this is not new. So I think that to not talk about this is like you're not talking about history, you're not talking about science, you're not talking about epigenetics. There's just no way to try to be in the space in any capacity and not talk about it.

And yes, it's a bunch of people who want to be more mature. It's a bunch of people that wanna make right decisions. And I think that if you only look at the data from being on the internet, where everyone's an asshole and everyone wants to cancel everyone. You do need to make sure if you're gonna engage and consume that stuff online, what is your antidote to that? To make sure that you're seeing the world

and human beings in a balanced way. I'm very lucky I have standup comedy because I get to go see, you know, 2000 people in one room. They're all laughing at the same shit. No one knows who anyone voted. No one knows, you know, what team anyone roots for. I'm like, we have so, people are trying.

These people laughed at these jokes and they left and they wanna vote. None of them are like, you're punching, like most people aren't like that. And I think that if you want to be mentally healthy today, you have to take active contrary actions to make sure that you're getting data from, in interactions from most people,

not just the like 10,000 people online who are probably very mentally ill. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think the argument in terms of anonymity, I mean, the kind of actual language is we're anonymous at the level of press, radio and film, right? That's kind of like in the literature. Okay, you didn't put YouTube in there, Bill.

I know, but like, is this press? Well, it's not technically radio. Kind of. But I guess you could make the argument, I mean, the idea of being like, you don't like, you know, promote this in the world. And part of that is if you're a public facing person and you do that and then you relapse,

it reflects poorly on the community. And I think there's some, I understand that. Look, Bill, the big book doesn't include phones, cell phones. It doesn't include computers. It doesn't, that was written before like porn and vapes and weed being legal. There's a couple of things that need to be updated about it. And I'm happy to be wrong, but I usually feel like I'm going in the right direction when I'm able to stop and check my motives and go,

okay, am I talking about this to try to get attention? Am I talking about this to try to make people feel sorry for me? Am I trying to make people like me? Am I trying to make people think I'm smart? What am I trying to do? And then if I'm like, no, I just, if I had had this program when I was 20,

a program to reparent myself, that's all it is. Our parents did the best they can with the tools they had. And then there's just, it's just college for how to behave in relationships, how to behave, how to treat yourself, how to treat other people. I just didn't, I got a bad blueprint for that. And it was no one's fault. I mean, my dad and mom worked a lot.

They were really busy, you know, because they had to work for money. I interpreted it as neglect, but they were trying to keep me fed, you know, I was a perception issue. And so there's so many magic tricks in this program. There's also just some of the most incredible people I've ever met. Some of the most healing laughs I've ever had, because there is a levity within these programs. No one wants to have to do that three times a week, you know, until then, once you start doing it, you really wanna do it

because you know how great it is. It's like exercise or anything. It's gonna suck for the first couple of weeks and then you'll get kind of addicted to it. And I think there's such a thing as positive addictions. If you know your brain doesn't hold dopamine the same way other people's hold dopamine, which is basically what ours is,

there's biological basis for it. But then when you start getting addicted to meetings and hanging out with friends and cool people and taking calls from sponsees, you know, you're like, wait, is this addictive the way I'm, you're like, no, this is a good thing. Like this is a positive addiction. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I totally agree. I mean, I think that there's, you know, on the subject of levity, like there's nothing more healing than to go into that environment, harboring some deep shame or some secret about some terrible thing that you did and hear somebody share a similar analogous version of that story and just own it with laughter.

It's just unbelievably liberating to realize like, oh, A, I'm not alone. And B, like there is hope to transcend this thing that I'm so deeply afraid of ever telling anybody that I did. And the fact that there's people around there who will welcome you without judgment and walk you through the process of going from the newcomer to being the person up there sharing your story

is just one of the coolest things I've ever participated in or been witness to. And in addition, when someone is helping you, you're helping them. So you don't have to feel guilt that this person's helping me. That's the mind fuck that took me a long time to figure out. But yeah.

That's the mind fuck of codependence in general. Cause normally codependence, I'm like, just call me every day. Oh, you mean it's good for me to be of service to people? Like I can selfishly be of service because it will help me. Like that's probably not a great message for an Al-Anon. Well, no, it's more that I'll go, okay, great. I'll sponsor you.

Let's talk every morning for 10 minutes, talk every night for 10 minutes. Send me this many voice memos a day. Anytime you do this or this, just check in with me about it. Let's make a scout, whatever. And it's a lot of like, well, I just, I don't want to bother you. Like, I just don't want to, I know you're busy. And like, I just don't, I feel guilty calling twice a day. And I'm like, so this is the, you know, mind fuck of codependence.

So let's play that scene out. You're the codependent. You're a newcomer day one into Al-Anon. Rich, I'm your sponsor. I want you to call me twice a day. Check in. Yeah. I don't know.

Like, I don't want to bug you. I don't. I don't know. I'm busy. You're busy? Yeah. Yeah. But if we stop before that. If I have time.

It was this, but it's more like I don't wanna bother you. So I said call me, you said I don't wanna bother you. So now you're calling me a liar. You're saying that I just said something insincere. That's rude. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. So it's like when we really get to the bottom of codependent, I'm so worried about you.

You're saying a couple of things. Number one, that I'm bad at my own time management, that I say things that I don't mean and that I'm trying to manipulate you. Like you doing that was insulting to me. Right, well, the other piece, at least from the alcoholic perspective in that context would be what's your angle

or what are you trying to get over on me? Or you're trying to, like, there's a hitch here. 13 stepping on you. I'm waiting for, yeah, like, to find out like, oh, you're actually trying to run a scam on me. What I would say is good news, bad news. The shoe dropped. I'm not gonna fuck you over.

You already fucked yourself over enough. You know what I mean? Like, what would I fuck you over for? Your three DUIs? You don't have anything that I want, dude. That's the thing. Why would I, what? What do I get? Your studio carpet with the hooker? That's the grandiosity of the newcomer, right? And then also you can get information just, so I think a lot of what this is about is just like slowing down the way that we talk and getting

super granular with what your reaction is to something. So if I say to her, and I sponsor, I sponsor female identifying people, I say, call me anytime. She says, I can't, I feel guilty. And I go, that's great information that people were insincere with you growing up, or they said one thing and meant another thing, or there were strings attached, or they over-promised and under-delivered,

or they offered something and then made you feel guilt when you actually took it. Right. Or they made you believe that their time was more valuable than yours. So let's start writing that up in your four-step. What is the four-step story about how... Because I think the key to all this is also knowing whether you do one meeting or do them all the time like I do, you on some level believe that you're terminally unique right if you're like i don't want to tell anyone that bad thing i did like oh you're the only person right that stole a car you think you're what you did was there's an arrogance to what i did was so bad and then you get someone read your fourth step which is you admitting all the you know crazy shit you've done and you get someone read your fourth step, which is you admitting all the crazy shit you've done. And there's a story that's like, yeah,

and then I fucked this chicken. He's like, wasn't there a whole coop? You only fucked one of them? It just was sort of like, we've all done that. And I think it was Barry Michaels and who is the other therapist that wrote the tools, Phil Stutz. He talks about, he said it so elegantly.

Phil Stutz, he was the big therapist, psychologist guy in Hollywood, right? Yeah, being a Hollywood psychologist. He was the guy that everyone wanted to get with though, right? Yeah, he's like very hard to get in. Is he still around? Him and Phil Stutz who, I'm sorry,

him and Barry Michaels, who is sort of his protege, wrote that book called The Tools, which I highly recommend. There's some like antidotes that I think your fan base would just find a little bit too simple for them. It's sort of, they already know it. But there's some exercises that are incredible that they put together.

The deathbed exercise, where you picture yourself on your deathbed, like very vividly, it actually really helps put things in perspective. Right, the idea like being that when you're going through a problem or you're having some kind of experience, fast forward to the deathbed and then reflect

on whatever you're going through right now is just really important. I had a, I mean, you know, I struggled with eating disorders for a very long time. I had a really profound experience when I was just was like, oh my God, I would be so bummed if on my deathbed, I looked back and was like, you spent like years of your life,

like counting calories and like driving around the city, buying sugar-free protein bar. Like, I just was like, my future, I'm not gonna let that happen to my future self. Like, I will not go down like that. And it just, something clicked. But when you're doing the work I'm not gonna let that happen to my future self. Like I will not go down like that, you know? And it just, something clicked. But when you're doing the work and you're asking for, you know,

illuminating of your psyche and your inner monologue, I think that when something really simple hits you, it really can make a change in your brain real fast. Yeah, so control issues, people pleasing, boundaries, disordered eating, codependency, like it's a whole bag of tricks here. So, and you've done like so much work, right? So like, but like, I'm interested in like, what's the,

cause the, on that idea of like the road is always getting narrower. Like you never transcend all of this. So what's the thing that's coming up now? I love that. What is the thing that you're doing battle with? And can I just say really quick, just in terms of, because I, what happens in vagueness,

stays in vagueness. And I think that it might be worth saying, like, you know, in these programs, you say admitted to God or power greater than yourself, that you are powerless over blank, powerless over alcohol, powerless over cocaine, powerless over sex, powerless over cocaine, powerless over sex, powerless over porn, powerless over whatever the thing is that you're powerless over where it's no longer a choice. And Al-Anon for me, it changed. Like in the beginning, it started with, I was powerless

over other people's behavior. I would obsess over other people's behavior. I would try to, why did he do that? Why did he say that? He doesn't like me, but hold on. Wait, should I have said that? I shouldn't have said that. I mean, just constant, constant. And then I'm powerless over other people's perceptions of me. Then I was powerless over perfectionism. Then I was powerless over worrying and panic. Like worrying gave me a high. I think that an addiction to anxiety and panic is super real.

An addiction to chaos. I'm powerless over chaos. I love chaos, but it's all a choice. I'm the one getting in the car and driving to his house. I'm the one that drove over. I'm the one that drove to that Thanksgiving with my dad and his new wife. I'm the one doing that. So did you have a bunch of boyfriends

that were just chaos agents that would fill that need? It's wild because I've been very lucky. I believe that in your 20s, if you're in a bad or whatever that means, that's normal. You know, what believe that in your 20s, if you're in a bad, whatever that means, that's normal. You know, what you do in your 20s, experimentation, figuring things out, you know, we need contrast. You gotta be in a couple of bad relationships.

So when the right person comes along, you're actually gonna be grateful and not be like, raya, raya, raya, maybe there's more, you know, so there are some that were just more childish than anything. But actually I was, because I was so precocious, I was actually able to do relationships pretty well with some healthy people until I started being successful in terms of my... It took having the whole day free to be able to maintain those relationships,

which is a red flag. Because I used to think that proximity and intimacy went hand in hand. So when I was able to do, it was dysfunctional at the time. If he went out of town, I'd like, I'll come with you, whatever. So afraid of being cheated on, abandoned, left, whatever. And then I started, I dated a couple addicts, we're saying, in active addiction. And there was one that was so bad. I was hiding crack pipes and driving downtown and fighting with drug dealers and that whole thing. And I really thought I was helping this person. I really thought I could, if someone just loved him enough, he would be sober. That shows my lack of understanding of basic neuroscience, basic biology. So one of the first things they say to do when you come into Al-Anon is study addiction,

learn about it. There's that book, Addicts and Addictive Thinking, I think. Study alcoholism, study what happens to the brain because you're gonna take their behavior personally and it has nothing to do with you. So that relapse had nothing to do with you. In fact, you probably be like, where's the crack pipe? Where's, is there anything? Who just called you? I mean, like no one, that's not gonna help someone tolerate life without being anesthetized if that's been their choice so far.

And then, I believe you've mentioned this before, a rule that kind of helped me, rule, whatever it is, aphorism, is that you are the age you are minus the amount of time you've been using drugs. So I was also in relationships with people that had, even if they were sober, they had been doing drugs since they were 14. Now they're 30 and just emotionally,

they've haven't developed their coping mechanisms yet. They haven't had an opportunity to have the dignity of their own experience. Like they're still catching up emotionally. And I was expecting them to run with a broken leg. I was expecting them to be in a relationship with the emotional intelligence of a 14 year old. Yeah, that's a big one I think.

People have this assumption that when somebody gets sober and then maybe they have a year or something like that, like, oh, they're fine. Like everything's fine. They're back to being who they are, but they don't understand that, they have to learn how to be in the world. Like I couldn't tell you how many years it took for me

to learn how to say no to like anything. Like I had no ability to- Tell me about that. Be an adult. Would you feel like they'd be mad at you? Sure, yeah. But that showed up for me mostly as avoidance. Like I just, I'll respond to that email later

or I'll just like pretend I didn't get that text where they asked me that question. And then you get in those situations where time passes and then the phone weighs a million pounds. Which is so unfair to you. I used to do that all the time. I still, you know, I'm challenged by that. Because to me, if I send you a text saying,

hey Rich, you wanna come to my birthday? And you're like, let me just not. I like you so much. Like, it'd be my nightmare if I stressed you out with that, you know, but I would never think that it would be that much of a challenge for you, you know? So it's sort of like, we are, you know, it's on us to develop the coping mechanisms to be able to go, okay, I've got this. This is the tool I used, which is like I have in my voice notes, in my notes app, I put in, I do a lot of voice memoing for my 10th step and stuff

to like listen back and see if I'm full of shit sometimes. But is I have like three go-to sayings for when someone asks me to do something. Hey, so good to hear from you. I am at capacity right now. And I just, I can't commit to anything at the moment. Can I let you know in a couple of weeks? Or, hey, can you actually send this to,

with someone on that's my scheduler so they can send to a fake email, whatever it is. Hey, I just can't commit right now. Here's what, if anyone is unhappy with that response, they're not integrated and then the sooner we start you know say what you mean mean what you say don't say it mean instead of oh hey oh you're invite you just invited me it's next week and with if you don't put that shit on them it's a great opportunity to for both of you to practice maturity and to see as you evolve in

your program and start reparenting yourself to be mature in your expectations of other people and not try to put your hooks in everyone, you get to see who they are. And then you also get to get proof that number one, no one cares if you say no. Right. And no one cares when you cancel, you're doing them the biggest favor. The other response, unhealthy response is the multiple paragraph one where you tell some long story about like what you can't do.

So in my first six months, no emails longer than two sentences. Any email that is more than three sentences, you are either trying to manipulate, you're apologizing, you're trying to micromanage how they perceive you, you're trying to guilt them or shame them. Do they deserve, same thing. I sent you that text today, I tried to be very succinct. But I had to go, nope, he does not need to know that.

That's me trying to make him think I'm not an asshole. And then I'm going, that makes me go, this guy has no ability to judge me when he meets me. Or if he thinks I'm an asshole based on that one extra sentence, there's probably something off with him. Right. But to really- But it takes that recovery and that maturity

to have that thought occur to you. Maturity is such a crazy word because I think we associate it with being kids, but as an ACA adult child of alcoholic, the whole reason it's called that is because we're still as adults behaving the way we did when we were children and using the tools that worked for us, whether it was like performing for everyone, shape-shifting for everyone, you know, it's sort of, if you had alcoholism in your home or you had any kind of neurodivergence or borderline personality, which I think just very recently we even have any understanding of in the zeitgeist and it's

all still pretty murky or schizophrenia or compulsive behaviors, you adapted. That's the wonderful thing about us is we can adapt so quickly, and then I know how to keep everything we say at 70 degrees. Do you need anything? Do you need anything just to make sure everyone's okay? The problem is that adaptation gets calcified and when your environment changes, your adaptations don't change with it. Unless you consciously try. You continue to go back to those same strategies

that you learned as a young person just to survive and get through the day. And now they show up as very unhealthy behavior patterns that are ruining your life. And what programs do is they take your brain off of auto drive. It takes it off your default software. So we go, oh, this is my default software. I'm going to update it so that I'm not operating on that same software. If that gets murky, it'll always default to that software. It'll always default to those thoughts, that blueprint. If I'm hungry, angry, lonely, tired,

if I've skipped some meetings, if I've skipped doing any of my rituals that keep me clear, if I've skipped hanging out with my friends that think like this, I'm gonna start getting further and further away from that 2.0 and I'm gonna start defaulting. If I'm scared, if I'm in a high stress situation. So I gotta know that about myself,

but what program does do for us is it gives us pause. I didn't know what that, I had no idea what that meant. I was such a, I know we're not allowed to say spas, but I was such a manic person that was just always in a rush, always in a rush because I had overbooked myself, over committed to stuff. Busyness was kind of an addiction of mine,

not necessarily productivity, but just busyness. It was a way of being avoidant, it's a way of not having to be with my feelings and keep that victim mentality of like, I'm always, people want so much for me and I just, you know, that martyr complex. Which by the way, so one of the first questions I ask sponsees and Al-Anon is I say,

okay, if you're going to the Rich Roll podcast, if it takes 30 minutes to get to Rich Roll and you have to be there at three o'clock, what time do you leave? Takes 30 minutes. What to Rich Roll. And you have to be there at three o'clock. What time do you leave? Takes 30 minutes. What is the healthy response or what do your sponsees say? Well, what a sponsees response is usually if they're just coming into program,

like you leave at 3.30. Because it takes 30 minutes to get there. But then you show, if anything intervenes, you're late. Magical thinking. What if you run into someone you know? What if there's traffic? What if you're stopping pee? What if you have to, you know, getting out of the car?

You can't find the building. Like you're not setting yourself up for a positive result. You're not giving yourself cushion. The more typical, they may say that, but then they'll still leave at 2.45 because there's a self-sabotage aspect of it. Like even if they're not consciously aware that they're running late,

they'll set themselves up so that they end up leaving late. And then that's a way to flog yourself or to create stress on the way there. So you can tell yourself you're a piece of shit or get the rush of hormones that come with like, I gotta get, you know, like. With making sure no one respects you. Cause it's also like, you know,

so to me that is a form of insanity and a form of exactly making sure that you feel like shit later. To be an engine to your shame addiction and you're bringing other people into it, which is especially disrespectful. But I think that that's something that for me is a big one. It's a very small thing. A lot of these big problems, I think have really basic solutions. So I have anxiety all day. Okay. Try just for a week, scheduling out your day in

a way that gives you an hour between each thing, if it takes 30 minutes, and then just see what happens. But for the unhealthy person, it's like, yeah, but whatever. I need the complicated solution because I'm special and my problems are special. I know, you're better than us. You don't understand how terrible it is for me. Yeah, I know. Look, I get it. Yeah.

So you know what? Nevermind then. You know what? I'm so sorry. Nevermind. You're good. I think you're good. And look, I went away.

The first year of Allen on ACA, I used it, I weaponized it. I mean, because I went in and I went, I get exactly what this is. I'm too busy for this. I don't have to do the steps. I got it. Like weaponized it. I mean, cause I went in and I went, I get exactly what this is. I'm too busy for this. These guys, I don't have to do the steps. I got like, I got it. Right. The intellectualization of it. I did that too. And then I just had to relapse a ton of times and end up in a treatment center. Yep. That'll do it. That's where intelligence gets in the way. Sometimes a little bit of program can be horrible for you because you can use it to hover.

Well, I'm in this program, so obviously I'm right. I mean, well, what they would say to do is this. And this is obviously, you're like, well, I'm not gonna go to the- That's called being a tourist in the program because you're not actually doing it. I'm not gonna go to the problem for the solution and you're the problem, so I'm gonna go get a solution.

Like you can't, doing all that is you're just using it to bully and shame other people and it just makes your self-righteous indignation addiction even worse. Did you answer the question that I asked you about what's showing up for you right now? No, because I realized I owe you a couple answers. How is it showing up for me currently still with the whack-a-mole of all of this? I do also think it's really important to update your software on yourself and on your recovery of going like, oh yeah, I really needed this 10 years ago when I was in recovery, but now I don't know if I need that as much anymore.

I think I need to be doing more of this. And also to go recheck in because that arrogance stuff will really, the ego will come right back up. I remember during the pandemic, I did a couple of Zoom meetings and I'm like, I've been doing this for so long and I'm listening to people who are just in the problem, not in the solution, which to me comes off like complaining, but they're newcomers. So, oh, my work right now is to be more patient with people

the way they were with me when I just came in and I had no idea what I was doing. And I thought it was cool to just brag about how bad my childhood was. Right, or to approach the meeting from a perspective of how you can help these people, as opposed to what am I extracting from this that's helpful to me?

100%, or I'm just here to look them in the eyes and receive what they're saying. God forbid me not think about myself for three minutes. Like take the win, the respite from having to think about yourself, you know? But when I get, that's what I love about hearing other people share

and just being like, okay, it's not just me. I'm not more special than anyone. Oh, it's not harder for me than it is for everyone. I'm just a worker bee. I'm just a worker bee. But when judgment comes in,

that's when I know I'm getting a little rusty. When gossip comes in, especially at a time where there's just so much gossip. Gossip is a really big sort of no-no line for a lot of Al-Anon's because it's sort of how we feel self righteous. It's how we judge, it's how we deal with fear.

It's how we give ourselves a little superficial hit of self esteem just because someone else made a mistake. That's not real self esteem. So it's like the McDonald's version of getting a little hit of self-esteem. Gossip is a big one. And then the way I handle gossip when it comes up, you know? And someone's like, oh my God, did you hear the Johnny Depp and the Amber Heard thing?

And I'm like, you know what? I'm just, I would love to participate in this conversation. I just can't because it's a real- But how does that work as a podcast host in the comedy kind of ecosystem? Because that's sort of part of it. Like you guys go on each other's shows and you kind of talk about each other.

And part of the comedy derives from like, whether it's Johnny Depp and Amber Heard or whatever's going on in the news. Right. Well, my podcast is really kind of just focused on me writing jokes about stuff and having incredible people on, but I tend to try to go personal.

I don't wanna ever take cheap shots at anybody. I don't, we end up cutting any of that out if someone will gossip about a celebrity or something, you have to bring it back to yourself. So Britney Spears, her conservatorship's over and she was barefoot in a thing. We're not gonna go, oh, she's a trash hillbilly, whatever, and go like, I did that a lot as a kid.

Should I be worried about hookworm? Take it back to yourself, keep the focus on yourself. That's the sort of Al-Anon adage. So for me, there's definitely been some things that I'm like, I need to sleep on it. If you had trauma as a child, a rule that works for me is that anytime you wanna make a decision, wait three days and then see if that's still the decision you wanna make.

Because feelings aren't facts. And I might be having a histrionic reaction. I might be in fight or flight mode. I might not have halted today. I might just be like wanting to get those likes cause I know this will go viral and I'm exploiting someone else. So I'm a big, don't just do something, sit there person.

Almost two of, I've almost gone the other way. When I first got into program, my big thing was saying yes to everything and being exhausted. I was sick all the time. I had cost chondritis, like my chest started ripping apart. I had pleural C in my back. Like I was just not sleeping.

Going from party of a person I didn't really like that much to hike with another person I didn't really even like that much, running around doing quote favors to people by pretending to like them, psycho. And so for me, it was the answer to most things is just no. It starts as no. It starts as no. I like how on your podcast, you have,

I mean, you have a lot of comedians and entertainers, but then every once in a while, it's like, oh, it's David Sinclair. Like, you know, there's like a little overlap with what I do here. I know. And I always get such a kick out of that. And then sometimes they're like deer in headlights. They're like, what is going on here?

Like, what is happening? Well, I really, I know. I know, I remember one time, one time Robert Greene was on the podcast and I was like, I literally opened with, I love all your books, I've read all your books. You know who else loves your books is Donald Trump. Like he loves, and he's like, are you saying I'm why he? I was like, oh, no, no, I just didn't. Sorry. Okay.

Let me like recalibrate to a professional adult that I'm talking to, you know, so I always try to ask questions that no one else would ask, you know, and it's it's cool because I get to watch your podcast and hit two birds with one stone because I think the way people consume these now is someone will look up, you know, Rich Roll and then that's well, if I had you on my podcast and hit two birds with one stone. Because I think the way people consume these now is someone will look up, you know, Rich Roll and then that's, well, if I had you on my podcast and then it would be the whole side of this thing would be other interviewers with you. So someone's in a wormhole on you and then they watch my podcast, then they watch Tim Ferriss and I've asked all the same questions. And then Huberman asked all the same questions. So I like to really watch everything and go, here are the questions nobody has asked this person

so that when they're in a wormhole, we're not just all boring ourselves to tears. And so usually the questions end up being a little wild. Right, that's good, I like it. We have to talk about DC. Do you know I'm from DC? No! Yes.

What? Because what I was gonna say earlier is that I also had this weird tinge of luck, which I don't think we do this enough. I'm a big gratitude list person. I don't like it, but I do it just because it works, not because I enjoy it. And one, I think a lot of times we don't look at our childhood and go, what was like advantageous?

Like, let me, I can all day complain about the things that weren't. But in DC, when I was 10, 11, 12, 13, the coolest people to hang out with and my boyfriend, my first boyfriend was straight edge. And that was the cool thing. Discord. 930 Club. 930 Club, XXX everywhere. Like that was my thing. Fugazi, like it was all about like being sober is cool. And I just happened to get that information. I'm sure that I gravitated towards it because it was complete opposite of what I would see at home. But I think I got a little bit lucky and going like the coolest people are the ones that don't do drugs. Yeah. It's so funny because I have so many cool straight edge friends

now, like guys that came up in punk rock and were part of that world and still playing bands and stuff like that. But I grew up not, I was not like going to the 930 club. Am I allowed to ask because it's your Wikipedia says you were born in Malibu or from Malibu. That's wrong. I know. I gotta stop getting my news from Alex Jones.

I grew up in DC. My parents live in Georgetown now. They still live in Georgetown. That's where I grew up. I went to the Landon School for Boys. What high school did you go to? You went to Landon? I did.

This is a trip. I went to St. Andrews. My mom was a teacher at Walt Whitman. Get the fuck out. Really? Yeah, so we- I mean, that was the public high school that I would have gone to if I didn't go.

I grew up in Bethesda. Where? My parents moved to Georgetown when I went away to, went like when I went away to college. So I lived on out there on Persimmon tree road and MacArthur Boulevard, right across the two, the one lane bridge.

Sure, I went to- Cabin John 711. For elementary school, I went to- Pyle? No, no, no, no. I went to a private elementary school. Was it a Montessori school? No, no, it was off MacArthur, like in DC.

Our Lady of Victory? No, I wanna say St. Stephen's, but that wasn't- Oh, Lady- St. Patrick's. That's where I went. You went to St. Patrick's? Yes. We went to the same elementary school. Is it all-

I mean, I'm older, I'm way older than you, but like, that's crazy. And then I went from there to Landon. You did the entire, you went all the way. So I went, no, I went 7th to 12th at Landon. And my mom worked at, your mom worked at Whitman? Well, my mom did public relations for- Neiman Marcus, right?

Neiman Marcus, Mazza Gallery, Bloomingdale's and White Flint and Tyson's. My brother was- White Flint was my jam. My brother was a bouncer at Third Edition. No way. You for sure met. Yeah. He's 45. I definitely was there.

I mean, I would go there and I would go to Garrett's. Sure. I was a Tombs bitch, the guards. Tombs, the Georgetown pub too. Georgetown club, what was the- Georgetown pub like on the campus. Oh, St. Martin's Tavern, oh. I don't remember.

You went to Georgetown. No, I didn't, no, no, no. Wait, you said, okay, you left- Yeah, like I came to California for college, but grew up in DC and then would go back and spent my summers in DC during college. So such a trip. All right, we'll talk more about that later.

But I'm really into where you were born has a very big impact on the way you think. Yeah, and one of the reasons I brought it up, not just because it's somewhat shared history, like your dad was a lawyer, right? My dad was a lawyer. He was a government lawyer. And then when I was in high school, he went to a firm

and your dad was like at Aaron Fox, right? Is that true? Are you like the new Nardwar? That was on Wikipedia. How do you know this kind of stuff? That was on Wikipedia. Oh, I don't think that's true. I think my dad on Wikipedia is also named the name

that we named my dad in my television show. So a lot of people like, like, that wasn't a documentary. There was a live studio audience, you know? So my dad went to Cambridge for law. He was so brilliant and so funny and looked exactly like Dan Aykroyd. Everyone thought he was Dan Aykroyd when I was a kid. He would sign autographs as Dan Aykroyd. And I'd be like, you know, and then I'd see, like, I fully thought he was Dan Aykroyd when I was a kid. He would sign autographs as Dan Aykroyd. And I'd be like, you know, and then I'd see,

like I fully thought he was Dan Aykroyd. One of the reasons I brought up DC is, you know, DC is a very unique place. There's a little bit of shared DNA with LA because they're company towns. You live in DC, it's all about politics. When you grow up as a kid and you're going to high school there,

you're very well-versed in everything that's going on. Mostly because it's like, what is, why can't we get to Maggiano's? Like Janet Reno's barricade. Like you learn that way. Right, oh, constantly that kind of stuff. But it's also a town where it's not really like, like prestige doesn't derive from material wealth.

It's about proximity to power. And it's also very much about academic excellence. Like everybody's driving their Volvo with the stickers on the back where their kids go to school. And as a child, like this was the game that I was playing and what was reinforced in my house to be very achievement oriented. And I got very good at that game.

Like that was my coping strategy for procuring love and acceptance and the like. And it's a longer story, but it's my version of what you shared where the world smiles on you for all of these things until you kind of crash that car into a wall and realize like you need new strategies for long-term wellbeing. It's so interesting when you just said that,

and this is how hard I've worked. Even if you don't like me or think I'm funny or saw that I was on the podcast, I'm like, oh, you know, like this changed my life, like clearly. And the, you know, I look at recovery as like, you know, like train tracks. Like there's this, these grooves,

like you said that have been calcified or crystallized in our brain of, this is how I treat this person. This is what I do in this situation. And it's about just like, like weakening those and opening new, just new, making new neural pathways, you know? And so as soon as you just said, my dad valued academic excellence, because I, a very similar thing that I think is worth talking about. I just thought, oh my God, that is so cool that his dad that I think is worth talking about. I just thought, oh my God, that is so cool that his dad just really wanted to set him up

to win in life. His dad had obviously been through something that was like, you need to be able to do this and this, and you need to get A's because I can't help you after this. Like the only thing I do have control of is instilling a wild work ethic in you. And that's what happened to me. My dad used to always tell me,

this might not be like the going science on what's healthy for kids, fine, but it really happened to me. My dad used to always tell me, this might not be like the going science on what's healthy for kids, fine, but it really worked for me. My dad always told me life is not fair and you're always gonna have to work twice as hard to get half as much. And then even when you deserve something, you're not gonna get it a lot.

So I would come home with a B plus, but I studied all night and did a lot and there's the bell curve and the thing and I should be able to get an A. And he goes, life's not fair. You don't deserve an A, you gotta B plus. And that was really helpful to me. I mean, this is going to sound wild, but my dad used to wake me up at two in the morning. Who cares why that was the time he was available. That's another story, but will wake me up at two in the morning and like drill me

with vocabulary words and the test for the next day and the whole thing, and spell it backwards, spell it forwards. And the kicker of it is that figuring out the way your primary caretakers thought is super helpful. I think it's super healing as well. So my dad, he always wanted to make sure that I was prepared for anything. Because the whole thing is like, you can be prepared for this,

but you're not prepared for all the things that are gonna go wrong. So SAT prep, we couldn't afford that. People say that the whole Rick Singer thing with college admissions, it's unfair even without someone taking tests for a rich kid. It's already unfair because at sophomore year, the rich kids start using SAT tutors, they already have an advantage. And he was very clear about like, yeah, you're gonna do all this, but

then a boy you have a crush on is gonna come in holding hands with another girl. What's gonna happen? You're gonna forget to eat and this and that. So he wanted me to be so good that I could do it like with my eyes closed, distracted, hungry, all of that. Yeah, a bit of a tiger dad served you well though. It makes me really emotional to think about it

because I regret all the time that my ego needed to blame my parents for the bad choices I made or the bad instincts I had or the broken DNA or intuition. Because I look back and even if what your parents are doing is malicious, there's just no way you cannot turn it into a superpower. There's no way unless they cut off your leg or whatever. But my mom worked three jobs and then she came home and then she worked. It was a mom, cleaned the house, would rearrange the house, maybe slightly pathologically, because she didn't have control in other areas.

But I always felt neglected. I spent most of my high school and years as a child in the White Flint Bloomingdales, just walking around, just walking around, you know, I just walking around shoplifting, but what I didn't realize I was doing at the time, my narrative was I'm a neglected child. I was talking to adults. I was talking to the cosmetics girl. And then I was like, can I do the perfume?

And then I would go up to a stranger and be like, excuse me, would you like to smell this perfume? You know, like I learned how to talk to adults. I learned how to speak publicly, you know, and it was kind of a weird, wild, brilliant gift that I got that I take no credit for. People are like, you work so hard. I'm like, I only work 12 hours a day.

What do you mean? And then I lived in Roanoke, Virginia and we lived on a farm. And as soon as you got home from work at seven o'clock, then the work started. Then you start cleaning out the stalls and you start getting the hay. So I got really, really lucky

that I just inherited this work ethic and it's just normal to me. Yeah, but it's so beautiful how you reflect back on your parents in that way. Like that's actually really helpful to me. I just think also, in program we go, oh, take a contrary action. If you wanna text your ex, just don't.

If you think it's a good idea, just don't do it. Call me first. Sometimes that's just the deal in the beginning. But to me, I try to take contrary thoughts and I also don't take my thoughts that seriously. I look at my inner monologue as like a science fiction movie. It's like Star Wars or something. It's just like, Rich doesn't like me.

That was weird. That was weird. Whether you do or not, it know, it's just like, Rich doesn't like me. That was weird. That was weird. Whether you do or not, it doesn't matter, you know? And it's like, I just made that up in my head. Like, what was that? No one needed that. And then Argus Hamilton, a comedian that's been around forever, legend.

No Argus. He said once to me, give your character defects names and make them people that are trying to help you. And they're just trying to help you at the wrong time. That's cool. That helped me have so much compassion, you know? So girl will walk by gorgeous, whatever, young, charming, dating a guy I used to have a crush on.

I'm like, oh, what's with that? Whoa, Jenny, what was that? Why are you trying to, I know this sounds great. I'm really encouraging schizophrenia. What, trying to make you feel better? It doesn't, this isn't how it looks by the way. I'm not this crazy, but I'll be like, okay, that wasn't me.

That was my inner child. That was old programming. Why did that happen? Because she's probably lovely and I'm not meant to be with him. So why did my body want to do that? Oh, number one, a thousand years ago, my body would just like procreate at all costs.

You know, that's some old shit that, you know, is unnecessary. I have an I my body would just be like, procreate at all costs. That's some old shit that is unnecessary. I have an IUD, why are you trying to procreate? That's not what we're doing here. Like fast forward to the present and then go like, what was that? Oh yeah, okay, I know what that was. That was just me.

If I villainize her, then she's less pretty and less of a threat to me. Like, what am I doing? Right. And then I can kind of just break it apart and go, oh, you know what? That was really helpful a long time ago when family members had secret families and were picking women over me that helped me take an action to then involve myself and charm them and try to get their attention back because I equated it as safety or whatever. And then I just like kind of break it down and go like, nope, not mine, not mine, not mine. It's like the way you would go.

Or thank you, Jenny, but maybe later, not now. Not her, this isn't the time. When the homeless meth addict breaks into my house, which will be any day now, that's when I need, I need Bill to get off the bench. Maybe he's coming to return your computer. And they're also, and they're also, I look at them as, I look at them as I look at thoughts

as my inner child's pitches. You know what I mean? That person might be trying to steal from you. Be careful. No, he's not. Why, why steal what? Yeah, that's not gonna make the slate. You know what I mean?

It's just not. This one might go to pilot, but maybe no further. No, exactly. But like, you know what? Sit on the bench. I love you. You are only trying to protect me and you're only trying to keep me alive.

So half of it is nature, who's our brain's only priority is to keep us alive. Not, I hate this, I'm not, I mean, it's like, how can you get your brain from surviving to thriving? And every time I make a decision, I try to go, is this just me trying to survive or is this me actually thriving? Because why am I in survival mode?

Yeah, just that question alone, why am I in survival mode? Even if you try to steel man that argument, whatever comes up, it's gonna break down. Because there generally isn't a reason for you to be in survival mode or some kind of flight or fight response to a relatively benign interaction. And why do you hate your future self so much

that you're not willing to think this way, mindlessly and consciously? Why are you not trying to make a positive contribution to your future self? Because I don't deserve it, Whitney. Okay, how's that going? You know? I don't know, I've been doing it my whole life.

It's worked pretty well for you. That's the other thing. A lot of these things work well for people, you know, until they don't. Right, I think the thing is it's scary to change. And if you have, if that groove is dug so deep and you're telling somebody like, Hey, listen, like this thing you've been doing

your whole life, like you should probably discard it or think of a new way. Like how do you even begin to do that? And if it's something that's not tangible, you've been gambling your whole life, throw the cards away. You've been doing drugs your whole life. Don't go to a bar and get rid of the drug, you know?

But it's like things like eating addictions and sex addictions and behavior addictions like this. These are things we move through the world. We have to do at least three times a day. Sorry, sex, I don't have sex three times a day. I'm not gonna have that kind of time. Right, which is, it's something you have to have a lot more compassion for than the drug addict or whatever.

Because you have to eat three times a day, like you're confronted inevitably with this, you know. David Sinclair would not say you have to eat three times a day though. So maybe. He definitely would not. There's a lot of people right now, a lot of people who've been on this podcast who would say,

you shouldn't have to worry about three times a day. Well, let's just say once a day minimum. See what works for you. How about that, right? I am someone that has migraines that did not work for me. So, but I also, I know I'm kind of joking, but it's sort of like the, this is gonna get me in too much trouble.

So I'm not gonna set it up that way, but I will say that, intermittent fasting, like don't eat all, I'm like, we invented that. I was anorexic for 20, I invented that. I think there's a lot of people and probably a lot of men who are using intermittent fasting and fasting to hide their dysfunctional eating.

Sure. Yeah. Which is, you know, it's just fascinating that you have brought all this to life just in general. I also wanted to just bring up a couple of things just that you just inspired me about, like just little tools, you know, that I think we all sleep on that are so basic and everyone has access to,

which are is music and animals. That was my next thing I wanted to get into the animals. So go. I just wanna say something that really helps me is that I'm very weird about, I need to over pathologize it, but I'm very intentional about the way I use music to help my life and help my equilibrium in my brain.

So when I drive around, I don't listen to music. I'll listen to podcasts sometimes, but other times I'm like, I need this time to just hang out with myself. Like I need, we don't do a lot of processing. I was at, you know, cheer, the cheer, about Nivera cheerleaders, it's a show on Netflix about nevera cheerleaders. It's a show on Netflix about the best cheerleaders in the world.

And I was talking to one of them and athletes, there's so much to learn from great athletes because just the concept of discipline and the concept of knowing what you need and not being able to fake it. If you have an injury, you can't be like, I'm fine. Like you can't be dishonest with yourself or other people because you could get permanently hurt or you could hurt someone else, especially in cheerleading. Because if you're in the bottom of the pyramid and you're like, oh no, I'm fine.

If you're people pleasing or being codependent, a lot of people could get hurt. So there's just no concept of not telling the truth about your limitations, right? I think, you know, non-athletes really, no, I'm fine, I'm good. Like I can, I can lift that. Like there's a, you know, a respect for reality

and a living and a sort of radical realism. And so I was talking to Morgan, who's sort of a big star of the show. She's just the grittiest, most incredible. It's a very triumphant story of what she came from and how she had to overcome some obstacles.

And it's about, it's not even about inches when it comes to cheerleading. I mean, it's about iotas, like the tiniest centimeter you miss and it's over. So it's about radical perfectionism. So you're like, oh, these people must be nuts and unrecovered. And I remember I went and saw it when I was in Austin and the live show. And I said to Morgan, because for the last two years, she's just gotten famous off this television show. And I was like, what are you going to do?

Like for the summer? And she's like, oh, I'm taking the entire summer off just to process. And I was like- How old is she? 19. Right. Almost 20.

That's definitely like a new thing. But like, it wasn't like to like sit with my crystals. It wasn't like that. It was like to, I was like, what does it mean process? She's like, the last two years have just been a whirlwind. I'm just going to like, what does it mean process? She's like, the last two years have just been a whirlwind. I'm just gonna like write my journal and just process. I was like, what?

I didn't even know that was an option. Right. I go through life just like, well, that's over with, that's over with, that's over with. And we don't take time to just go. Or like, this is the moment to double down and capitalize. Like, it's not gonna be like this forever. I have an opportunity, better make this work.

Like now's the time to hustle overdrive. And then I'll process later, but you gotta schedule that processing time, you know? And we get it a little bit with our 10th step at night when, you know, the 10th step is anyone can do, even if you're not in program of just sit down, you know, before you go to bed and get a pen out and just go like, how did I do today?

Like, okay, that wasn't great. I probably shouldn't have said that. Oh, I interrupted her in the meeting. I should probably tomorrow just apologize right now. Hey, you might not even have noticed this, but I interrupted you earlier and I'm sorry that was rude. You know, whatever. And then it is the best feeling in the world

to apologize to people. That's what I'm addicted. I'm addicted to apologizing, but not in the way that every woman just moves through the world apologizing constantly. It's not, I'm the opposite on that because my shit with that is so deep. You're talking about owning your behavior. Owning your behavior. But not in the way that every woman just moves through the world apologizing constantly. It's not, I'm the opposite on that. Because my shit with that is- You're talking about owning your behavior.

Owning your behavior. You know, it is just a way to, this is too gross of a metaphor. It's just like taking the best piss of your life, you know? Because you're just like removing all that guilt, all that shame. We say you can't stay clean on the shower you took yesterday. So it's basically a way of just clearing the slate of any resentments, guilts. Like, oh, you know what? I don't like the way I responded to that.

That was, you know what? Next time I'm gonna do it better. Great. Living amends to myself. You know, just process, locking in the growth, I also call it. Because we hear so much brilliant stuff right now, you know? I'm gonna listen to Rich Roll. And then I'm gonna listen to Rich Roll.

And then I'm gonna like go for a walk and like process what he just said. Lock in that growth, you know? So many people are like process what he just said, lock in that growth. So many people are like, I heard this podcast, it changed my life. I'm like, what did it say? Ah, something about like, you know what I mean? And you're like, the same way when we read books now, we're like, just, I can read five pages and go,

I could not tell you what I just read if I'm not gonna be sort of mindful about it. Well, there's also the weird dopamine inducing experience of reading that thing, or maybe, you know, the, the inspirational quote that you see on Instagram and then, and then feeling accomplished when you actually haven't channeled any of that into any behavior modification. Nothing. It's nothing. Yeah. And, um, the music thing is just something that I, I just kind of realized about myself because I said it out loud to people and they were like, what? Where I'm so emotionally

reactive to music. You might not be or your listeners may or may not be, but know what activates you. Know what is a natural form of Adderall or whatever people take today, like energy, coffee, whatever, where I won't listen to a musical. I won't waste music. You know what I mean? I won't waste it. Meaning it's not a background soundtrack.

It's intentional to induce a state of being or awareness. Totally. Elevate your experience. And I don't just like turn on the radio because I don't know what I'm gonna get hit with. If I hear a Billie Eilish, I'll be the whole, my whole day shot, you know, because I'm like in my emotions and now I get, so I know.

Powerful Billie Eilish. I know you, well just, you know, she's, I will, you know, something emotional, sorry, Sinead O'Connor's Nothing Compares or something, you know, you never know what emotional landmine you're gonna like fall into that's gonna derail you. And conversely, you can really get a lot of energy from music. I mean, of course, power songs, your gym mix, whatever. But I will be very mindful about what song I'm playing when and what I need to hear. And I'll go like, okay, I'm feeling kind of tired. I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going

to have some coffee. But you know what? I'm not going to do that. I'm just going to put on Beyonce, CEO, whoever your person is, you know, MXPX or, you know, I can do this all day long. But I'm now like, oh, he's going to think I'm corny if I mentioned DC, Henry Rollins. I don't know. And it will have, knowing the impact it has on me, I will use it to my advantage. And a lot of people are like, how'd you do that? I'm like, I just play, how'd you write that book? How'd you write that script? I just blasted rage against the machine for two hours. You know, so that's something I think we kind of sleep on sometimes.

Right, let's talk about the animals. Okay. I wanna know how this deep relationship that you have with animals began. And I wanna talk about the kind of healing modalities that you've explored with this. I mean, particularly equine therapy. I know you've talked about it a lot,

but I think it's really powerful. Thank you. I'm gonna, I feel overwhelmed. I'm just gonna say that out loud. And I'm gonna, I'm just got a little bit afraid of being boring. That's like one of my biggest fears and I just caught it. And I'm just gonna slow down.

So- You're not being boring. What's that? Anything, I'm like, it's getting warm in here. It's getting hot. It's freaking hot out. We have to turn the air conditioner off for this thing. I am in a swamp on your very expensive chair. So growing up again, this is a thing I got lucky for. Abusely, I am in a swamp on your very expensive chair.

So growing up, again, this is a thing I got lucky for. I thought it was horrible abuse at the time because no one was around to raise me. And I spent most of my summers in Rona, Virginia and a couple of years of my teenage years. And I lived with my aunts. Things were just too chaotic at home. I know this is something you don't hear a lot in like LA and New York, but in other, there's more to America than just that in the Midwest,

sometimes in the south. It's not that unusual to go live with your aunts or your grandfather, whatever if things are getting a little bit hectic, which they were to say the least. So, but I always was with my whole, every summer, my whole childhood, I didn't go to camps. I didn't go to, I mean, I did do the YMCA camp one.

That left a mark. That was, I need to talk to my EMDR therapist about that camp. But you'd go to the country in the summertime. And I just spent time with animals and it was the safest I felt. So, I had had, you know, sexual abuse as a child and adults were just kind of scary to me if they were around at all. So between those two things, you know, kind of auspicious, kind of not, but I, my aunt,

my aunts, Lisa and Kathy live right next to each other. Both people who are just animal people. I come from Appalachia. So you had two aunts and they both lived in separate houses on the same like farm or something? Same road that just sort of forked. And one personality was sort of incredibly, you know, Southern charm, perfect China all the time. House is perfect. Mary Chapin Carpenter, what's that song?

He thinks we'll keep her. Just about everything was right in place. The perfect napkins and the perfect and the homemade, everything and everything from scratch. And then my other aunt was just like the most punk rock animal bitch you can imagine. She had 15 cats, something like 18 dogs and everyone in the neighborhood or surrounding area.

If their dog had a medical problem, they couldn't afford to fix, you would just wake up and there would be like a basset hound tied to the tree. So we would take in new animals all the time. People would just leave puppies in bags, stuff like that. And then there were tons of horses. And I just, they were the only people I could understand. I couldn't understand adults.

There was just so, I mean, look, getting into whatever neurodivergence I have, you guys feel free to diagnose me. I'm sure it's just as valid as whatever doctor told me this 20 years ago. But horses, I could understand. Dogs, I could understand. Cats, I could understand.

Adults, I couldn't understand because they would act one way and then we would go to church on Sunday and it said, don't lie, don't cheat. And then they would lie or do, and I'm like, I don't understand this. Or they would be one way. And then we would go to church on Sunday and it said, don't lie, don't cheat. And then they would lie or do, and I'm like, I don't understand this. Or they would be like, all right, I love you, love you. Totally indirect communication,

totally sloppy communication. I'm fine. No, I'm fine. As a kid, you're like, I know you're not, but why would you lie? So I must just be dumb or a piece of shit, or I just have to doubt everyone all the time. It erodes your ability to trust.

And I just was like, I must just not, I felt very lonely around people. I felt very stressed out around them. I couldn't understand them. I didn't understand their value system. It was obviously an alcoholic home. So people were very distracted with lots of things. And horses, I understood.

Horses are very direct communicators because they're prey animals. They don't lie. They don't try to charm you or beguile you. And they're very fair. They're very fair. And I do very well when something is clear and fair. There's nothing you can say. It's not about what you're saying. It's about how you're saying it, you know? So if it's like, I love you. I'm like, that's scary. I'm scared of that. I'm scared of a dissonance between what someone's saying and how they're saying it. And that's a lot of the codependent,

you know, a lot of it's, you know, we've inherited it, you know, epigenetically and, you know, religion probably didn't help, but you never say what you're actually thinking. And, but can you pass the, can you pass the, can you pass the pepper or not? Or you're not, oh, okay. Well, can you do anything?

Cause you couldn't pass the ball in high school either. Oh, you couldn't do that. And then there's an explosion. Yeah. And there's a huge fight over seemingly nothing. Can I have that or you? But everything is loaded. Always.

Yeah. With so much. And between each other too. It's like, oh, look who decided to show up. Something is little. Hey, stranger. I'm like, that's not a stranger, that's our uncle. We just saw him, you know?

So all that sort of like resentment-y, indirect communication. And then I'm around animals and I'm like, I get it. If a horse kicks at you, you were too close. Got it. And being a prey animal, the horses are very adept at reading behavior, right? So they understand like,

and so you can't have dissonance between what you're saying and how you actually feel, right? You're not getting away with anything. They root that out. So it's like a great like vehicle or almost a mirror exercise for integrating your emotions with your words. That's what you're saying, right?

Being authentic. Yeah. Yeah, and because sometimes you do have to tell this to people like animals don't know what you do for a living. They don't know you're famous. They don't care. All they do is value serenity and tranquility. They also don't need you to beguile.

They can't like, you can't control an animal that is a horse or a prey animal with treats. Like they have grass, they already have food. They need nothing from you. So the only motivation, a truly wild and not broken spirited horse, the only benefit of being around you would be tranquility or that you have leadership qualities and that you become the lead mare.

And so what's so incredible about horses, other prey animals, but let's just talk about horses, is they want you to be regal. They want you to be powerful. They want you to be in charge. Whereas most people want you to be regal. They want you to be powerful. They want you to be in charge. Whereas most people want you to be small, right? They want you to be humble. They don't want you to talk too much about your accomplishments because then that makes me feel bad. I don't want you to be in charge. I don't want you to be the alpha. I'm the fucking alpha, man. Horses are just

like, they want you to be in charge because we're a herd, right? So you're only as strong as your weakest link. So it's like, if a horse doesn't respect you, it usually means you don't respect yourself. How are you carrying yourself? Do you find yourself apologizing to the horse? Are you being results oriented? Are you trying to take a selfie? The horse doesn't know what that is. All it feels is your desperation. All it feels is fear of this isn't going well, fear of not getting a photo, fear of not looking good, fear of, and it's just like fear. And then it has to look around and go, are there any bobcats around or cougars that we need to worry about? So they want to get away from you. Right. Or does the horse like me? The horse doesn't like me.

The fact that you're asking that question is the reason it doesn't like you. So it's basically like, it's just horses are repelled by insecurity, microman, all the things that I'm trying to minimize in myself, characteristic-wise, they're repelled by. So you really have to learn if you wanna spend time with a horse in a way that's not abusive and that you're not gonna embarrass it

or degrade it or exploit it, you have to be the kind of person that that horse would wanna hang out with. Right, so in an equine therapy context, like explain that modality and how that works to help somebody who does come in So in an equine therapy context, like explain that modality and how that works to help somebody who does come in with all of these sort of issues.

How does working with the horse help heal that person? I think that before you even spend any time with a horse, it's already so educational. When I say, you're a horse person probably. I haven't spent a lot of time with horses. Interesting. So a lot of people are like, duh, horse, I'm sure. But I haven't spent a lot of time with horses. Interesting. So a lot of people are like, the horse. But I'm super interested about this

and the more I learn about it, like I wanna know more about this. They are an actual mirror. But we are of course now talking about horses. I'm not talking horses that, carriage horses that are abused or horses that have been broken. So a lot of horses that have been trained to let anyone get on them, their spirit is broken.

They're not a horse that you wanna do equine therapy with because they're gone. Like they have surrendered to the fact that they are just prostitutes. They have nothing left. They have no connection with you. So the first thing is establishing a connection with a horse where you're gonna want it to run up to you.

The first thing we do when we see a horse, what do we do? You wanna pet his nose and see if he'll- Can you imagine if someone walked up to you and just started touching your face that you had never met? Right. How disrespectful that is. It's just the most basic, it's the most basic thing.

And I think that for us as humans, we have just forgotten common sense. Like, can you imagine if I just jumped on your back and asked you to give me a piggyback on a hike? I mean, it's just, yes, horses were bred to do this. Of course, horses, I know everything that everyone's thinking as I say this, but if you want to get the medicinal benefits from this animal, you have to think this way. And it helps train your brain to go,

that person was kind of a dick. Why was that guy such a dick? And then you go, wait, why did I give him a hug before? Wait, his wife was, I should have said hi to his wife or whatever it is, whatever forensics you need to do, you get to take responsibility for what's going on around you and the way people react to you. And you get to get a very fair assessment of your energy and what you give off. Are you giving off true alpha shit or are you frazzled and scared? If you need a horse's approval, that horse is like, you're not safe around. You are a problem for this herd or something's wrong with you. They don't understand that when someone's behavior and thoughts are incongruous, cuz horses don't lie.

They don't do shit like that. And also horses, they resolve conflicts and it's over. They don't hold on to it. They just kick each other in the face and then it's over. Instead of just like, I can't believe that happened. They don't hold on to that because it's not auspicious for them, because it takes up too much energy. And they need to be energy conservation experts because you never know when you're gonna get

that next patch of grass. So vultures fascinate me too because of the way that they have to save energy. And that's something we don't think about as humans. It's like, why are you just wasting your energy on all this stuff? They've taught me about energy conservation. I now think about my life as every day I have 100 energy dollars. And by five o'clock if I've spent $60 of my energy dollars and then someone's like, do you wanna go to dinner?

And I'm like, I still have to work out and I still have to read that script and I still have to write some jokes. So I'll be at 90 energy dollars and this person takes like 40 energy dollars. I can't, cuz then I'll be borrowing from the next day and then I'll be on a deficit. So that helps me and that's how horses operate also. So growing up when I was around horses, I always felt safe because their behavior was always fair.

Their behavior was always fair and they only think to take care of themselves for the most part. And when you watch horse behavior a lot, when they do interact and quote, help each other, it's always an equal exchange and it's always to be of service. So they'll groom each other side by side, even if they've just gotten a fight 10 minutes ago, it's all of service. And so I was just, the only time I felt sane was around horses. The only time I truly understood what was going on was around horses. And I was obsessed with them. I was also obsessed with the discipline around it and putting the saddle away and cleaning the saddle.

And I just loved the ritual of it. I loved the responsibility required. I loved how sensitive horses are because I'm really sensitive. So I have misophonia, which is when you just hear things just really loud and horses have super superhero hearing. So my horse hears bamboo from a mile away. And I'm like, you heard that? I heard, okay. All right, I'm not crazy. Okay, good. This is probably an advantage, like a genetic advantage. And then it makes you think about like, oh, what was my purpose or my ancestors purpose in tribal

times? Because I also have trouble sleeping. And then I learned about the night watcher theory, which is a lot of people that are insomniacs, their ancestors, ancestors, ancestors were the people in the tribes before streetlights and security guards that stayed up all night to look for threats and assess threats. They were the night watchers and the night watchers bred with the night watchers and they basically have a circadian rhythm that's just off. They just inherited it, it's a superpower, but not if you're trying to sleep 10 to six. But it gets very empowering.

I hate that word. Too many idiots use it. Sorry. Because horses take responsibility for themselves and you study their breed to know more about them. Dogs as well. I only rescue dogs obviously, but when you go, the first thing I can do to understand this dog is understand what it was bred to do

and understand where it gets its dopamine and what it needs. So I was on the forward path mindset. What is that? Path forward. I don't even know what that is. It was the ancestral, the guy you just had on whose dad was in the home. Oh, long path.

Long path, sorry. I'm so dyslexic. Long path, I said path, I don't know what I said. Forward path? Forward path. Okay, well, I'm starting that. That's a path too. I'm starting that, okay.

I just got my trademark. Andrew Yang might already be doing that, but like. And so then you start going like, oh, well, this is a Australian shepherd. They're bred to herd. They cannot see the world in any other way. When humans are standing too far apart, an Australian shepherd needs to herd you.

They need you two to get together or else they're gonna bark. They're gonna freak out. They're gonna tear up your shit. And we go, what's wrong with this dog? Why is it tearing up? It's not a dog. It's an Australian shepherd. It's doing what it's supposed to do. It's doing what it is wired to do. I know so many people in LA, they're like, I your shit. And we go, what's wrong with this dog? Why is it tearing up? It's not a dog. It's an Australian Shepherd. It's doing what it's supposed to do.

It's doing what it is wired to do. I know so many people in LA, they're like, I wanna get a Husky. They have such pretty blue eyes. I'm like, okay, do you run 20? You're the only person that's had a Husky 20 miles a day. We have great Pyrenees. Oh, wow.

Which are beautiful regal animals. Wow, wow, wow, wow. And then go like- But they need a lot of, you know, like they need a lot of exercise and I, like they need a lot of exercise. And I think it's too hot for them here. I don't think it's great for them environmental wise, but. I mean, it's also,

that's a different conversation for another day because also I think that all these animals are adaptable and resilient and there's always some kind of solution. So, you know, people's biggest thing is like, I can't adopt a big dog or I can't adopt a dog, I don't have a yard. I'm like, I don't have a big house. Dogs are dead animals, they like small, they like small places.

The more territory that they believe they have to protect, the more stressed out they get. So actually you get a calmer dog when you have a smaller space or keep mid more. So that doesn't apply to that, but just in general. And so it made me start asking like, oh, I was so reverent of the ancestry, what they were bred to do yet completely oblivious that that would apply to humans, like in humans or animals, like just the idea of like, oh, then why do I do this? Oh my God. Well, my ancestry is Appalachia. Why do I have this superhero hearing? And why am I so uncomfortable in small spaces and elevators?

Oh, right, my grandfather was in coal mines. Right, why would we be any different? Why are we not all in nursing homes asking our grandmothers, our great aunts, like what was my grandfather like? What was my great-great-grandfather like? And then something very spooky happened that I'll just tell you,

and we'll get back to the medicinal qualities horses. I did something called family constellation, which is what? Dude, my wife's all about this. Go ahead. Am I your nightmare? No, it's great. So I will say it loud and proud.

I believe it's a pseudoscience. I don't believe it's a science. Maybe I'm missing something, but I also believe that all humans, we know so much more than we think we know. Like all knowledge has to be verbal. It all has to be written. We forget about our intuition. We forget how much information we already have. And I think that I remember one time there's this psychic that I went to way, way back in the day and everything she said was right. psychic that I went to way, way back in the day. And everything she said was right. And I was like, oh my God, she's psychic. And then I was like, wait a second, ask me about my relationships.

You're the psychic. So I can't decide what to do between these two guys I'm dating. I can't decide which one. Like, there's this one guy, his name is Jim. And you know, like he's really like, I really like him. You know, but like, I don't know. And then there's this guy, Kevin, who is like, he's so normal, like he's so supportive. Like he, I don't know, I just can't decide. You're not gonna end up with either of them. Well, that's true.

And then I'm like, hey psychic, we have no idea how much information we are giving with the way we say things in our nonverbal cues. Sure, and the more one knows about how you're wired, it's easier to predict. That person can see what you can't see, which is that you'll default to your behavior patterns, better or worse, and end up with the person

that you kind of historically have always ended up with, despite your best intentions to be with somebody else. For sure, but what she said was like, Jim is not the right match right now. I'd be like, oh my God, you're right. But I already knew that. I needed someone to say what I already knew. Jim is, I mean, he's like, he's really not,

like when we're- But you're probably more likely to end up with Jim. That's the thing. At that time, yes, for sure. But the way I was saying it, the way that I was apologizing for him, I was defending him, et cetera. You know, so to me- You're telegraphing.

You're already defending this person, but look, he doesn't do great at movie theaters, but when we're alone, everyone already knows, we're all so psychic. We just kind of are like, and so that is something to think about as I say. So Family Constellation, someone basically comes and here's the other thing that it does that is a miracle. Even if nothing else happens about this, they encourage you to just quite simply ask your living ancestors questions.

We are sitting on the biggest wealth of information and insight on the planet and it's old people. We think they're stupid. We put them in homes. We lock them away and they're dumb and they don't know how to use Facebook and they don't know how to text and they don't know how to use Giphy's and dah, dah, dah. Whereas like half of the issues that,

I mean, you know, my mom's in a nursing home. I'll just go down the hall to some woman named Rita who no one will talk to anyway. And I'm like, what do you think about marriage? Like when's the best time? Right. Better than any therapy session. We just had a guy in here who was a hundred. I saw that. Did you see it? Yeah.

Just all the wisdom is right there. And then one of the keys to unlocking radical compassion for my mom is she had a stroke. And then instead of asking, what can I get? What can I get? What do you owe me? What should I, you know, trying to get credit for taking care of you after you had a stroke. I eventually, my therapist was like, maybe you can use this. Well, my sponsor, it's an opportunity for a fact finding mission. Why don't you, every time you see your mom, ask her three questions about herself, like before you came along. I literally, first thing I asked her, I'm like, so when did you and dad like get engaged? Like, what was that like? And he's like, she was instantly, she was like, we got engaged, started, you know,

moved in together, planned the wedding. And two days before the wedding, he decided he didn't want to get married. And we had like, you're just like, wait, what? You had no idea about any of this. Wait, what? Like you had bad things happen to you? That had nothing to do with you. But I'm the only victim in the world that's ever had anything things happen to you? That had nothing to do with you.

But I'm the only victim in the world that's ever had anything bad happen to them, you know? So I started asking her questions and then you just get more and more information. And then I find out her dad is Jewish. I'm like, what? I didn't even know that. Like, I gotta dig in, where?

Like, let me get into this ancestral shit, you know? And then the family constellation provider, instructor, counselor. What's someone when they do a thing? Guide. Practitioner. Practitioner? Sure.

You have such a good vocabulary. I don't want to screw this up. So the family constellation practitioner comes in, asks you a bunch of questions, which by the way, if anyone answers like these questions, honestly, you're gonna learn a lot about yourself. It's kind of my thing with ayahuasca. I did do ayahuasca. I have positive things to say about it. But that said, the first night, I didn't really feel anything. And I was like, this is bullshit.

This is all power of suggestion. This is ridiculous. Like anyone sitting on a pillow for six hours without their phone is going to have some epiphanies. You know what I mean? I think the key is just being alone for six hours, you know? And then the next night, you know, that was just my ego coming up and whatever. And the next night I was able to have, you know, some stuff happen, but it wasn't like my life changed, you know?

Things just like kind of got into focus. And so she comes over and I don't know if you guys know this or not. I try to hide it a little bit because it makes everyone think I'm crazy. You definitely can't do it when you have blue hair, which I did for quite a while, which is the horse carriage business all over this country. It is so upsetting to me that it's like, if it's hysterical, it's historical. Like I tried to live in New York. I can't do things in Midtown.

If I hear the carriages, I just have a conniption. I go off. It's crazy that that still exists, but I feel like that's gotta be dated at this point. Just that recent moment of that horse collapsing and that horrible carriage driver that went crazy viral. It feels like the world, or at least the internet is united

around the wrongheadedness of this antiquated horrible practice. I mean, history will not smile kindly on what goes on with all of that. Yeah, who was it that said a culture will be defined by how it treated its animals? Who was that? Someone.

I know this one. Jamie? I'm having a senior moment. Someone. I know this one. Jamie? I'm having a senior moment. Yeah. I don't know if Jamie, Jason look that up. Jason call Jamie. No, some philosopher or writer. Well, what we don't realize is that when we abuse animals,

we're injuring ourself and we're screwing up our kids. So there's a psychiatrist that I used to talk to about this, if you are putting your kids on a horse that it's never met, or putting your kid on an elephant at the circus, putting your kid, you know. That's what it, you always say this, and it's even on your website, right?

Like don't ride elephants. I do always say that. I rode an elephant when I was in my early 20s, and I didn't know. I think most people don't know. I think that's what's the worst part about it, that you are signing this contract, this karmic contract with the universe,

and you abuse an universe, and you abuse an animal. And everyone's worked so hard to convince you that it's not abuse, and you're just being a good dad, or you're just being a good mom. And so you're doing something that is corroding to your own integrity. You know on some level it's wrong when you see a bear in a cage the size of a dog crate. You know that's wrong. You know seeing a dog on a bowling ball or a beach ball or playing basketball is, you know that's wrong on some level, you know, if you were connected to your intuition.

I think a lot of us are just so disconnected from our intuition that we weren't, that's wrong. Yeah. You know? So that is sort of like just, it's nice to be able to just go like blameless, blameless to everyone is like, we are moving through the world like zombies in many ways. And the animal stuff, even if you don't care about animals or you don't have

animals, like this is how offline we are. This is how autopilot we are on that. We are seeing things that should be horrific to us or should be like, oh, I should protect that thing. I should help that thing. That's, and we're just like, here, take a photo. You know, that's how gone we are. That's how bad we need likes or whatever it is. I mean, Instagram and social media has been a little bit, it's been a step forward for animal rights in a lot of ways because it's made more visible the way that we just saw what happened in New York to the carriage horse.

But then in another way, it's like, you get so many likes when you hold a baby tiger and you get so many likes when you're holding it a baby bear, you know, but we go, okay, what is the thing that pisses off a female tiger the most? Getting in between it and its young one. We all know this. Yet, if you see someone holding a baby tiger,

we're like, hmm. Like, what do you think had to happen to the mother for that to even, you know, we don't even do the math, you know, moving through the world. And I think the thing that is really tragic about it is this psychiatrist who was explaining to me that when we show our kids, it is appropriate, normal, even, even fun to exploit something else for our own benefit, another living thing. We're taught to abuse our power. We're taught that. We're taught, oh, if I'm stronger than this thing, or if this thing can't fight back,

I can use it to my advantage. Sure, it's my prerogative. That's what you're teaching. And we're taught, oh, if I'm stronger than this thing, or if this thing can't fight back, I can use it to my advantage. It's my prerogative. That's what you're teaching. And those examples have to do with the cuddly animals or the exotic animals, but the low hanging fruit here, like the big, the true elephant in the room is animal agriculture and what we do to animals for food. And even what we do to ourselves

when we use animals primarily for food. I'm working on this dog food that's half cricket protein because for every cow it's 260,000 gallons of water. Our meat addiction is going to put us in a drought real fast. So even if you're not like animals, whatever. I mean, the other thing to try to get people to think about it is like, you're just shortening your life as well.

If that's, in terms of you're eating all these antibiotics, my dad suffered from antibiotic resistance, something that I don't feel like is talked about that much because he had eaten so many foods with antibiotics jammed into him. By the time he actually needed antibiotics, they just didn't work that well. So back to the family constellation thing, not because I expect that you're gonna believe that this happens, you know, I'm as cynical as they come. I feel like I can tell the story just as a comedian. I'm always the one poking holes and things. I'm always, I mean, even when Dr. David Sinclair came on my podcast, I managed to just embarrass

myself more than normal because he was like, oh, when these mice took the NAD, they ran faster and they were stronger. And, you know, and I'm like, well, how do you assess their performance? And he's like, well, we just look over in the cage. And I was like, well, how do you know they weren't running faster because they were stronger. And I'm like, well, how do you assess their performance? And he's like, well, we just look over in the cage. And I was like, well, how do you know they weren't running faster? Because they were scared of you, your shadow. I mean, it's pretty scary. I would run faster.

And he was like, how do you, is this how you move through the world? So I'm always sort of questioning everything. And so for this experience to be this profound, I believe is worth sharing, which is that, so I am, I mean, debilitated by the noise of the horse carriages, seeing the horses, like I always figured I'm projecting onto myself because I work too much and I carry too much on my back. And I'm probably just projecting onto this because I need to look to myself. And I want to save all these horses when I really just need to focus on myself

and what's going on with me. And I did the family constellation. I'm talking to this woman. She asks questions. If you just go in, because I went in like, okay, of course, well, you Googled me. So of course you would know that. Well, of course you know me. And of course that, you know, and she asked me about my third grandfather. So my grand, grand grandfather. And she's like, what's going on there? And I was like, I don't know. How would you know? Nobody knows what their grand, grand, grand-

No clue! Was doing. Couldn't have been good. There's no way it was great. And given, I know history books aren't totally to be trusted either, but I'm pretty sure that there's some guilt and shame that I'm carrying from that person. And she was like, well, how are we gonna find out what this person,

and I was like, I guess we'll never know. Already the fact that I wasn't like, pick up the phone, call your uncle, ask a question. I'm already learning something. I'm already learning a lot about, and she also said that this man's wife, my grandmother, used withholding love to punish him. And maybe that's a super common coping mechanism, but I was like, that's exactly what I do. That is exactly, exactly what I do. And sometimes I justify it as I'm just taking a break in a breather and I'm gonna process something so that I can say what I mean, mean what I say, don't say it mean. But other times I'm just punishing. And I know that about myself. And I really don't like it about myself. And the way she said it, it just was like, okay,

I'm going to keep moving forward in this because that was so spot on. And then I call my uncle and I'm like, what's up with the great, great grandfather, the great, great grandfather, whatever. And then he's like, oh, he died of cirrhosis. I'm like, oh, there it is. Because she had said he did something unforgivable and it lives within you. I'm like, oh yeah, he drank himself to death. He probably cheated on my grandmother, which was probably pretty normal back then, but whatever. She would punish him by withholding love. And then he went, oh yeah, this is super random, but he invented this hitch that kept horse carriages together. No way. They would fall apart, they would fall apart, and he invented this hitch that kept horse carriages together.

No way. They would fall apart, they would fall apart, and he invented this little hook. And in classic Cummings horrible with money fashion, my grandfather, the big story was he, in our family was he passed on investing in McDonald's because he said, who would ever want a dollar burger? So that's- That's a good one.

Whether apocryphal or not, like you can get a lot of mileage out of that. It was just like, that's our family. So this guy, great, you know, ancestor, he invented this thing, but never got credit for it, never patented it, nothing, you know, probably an unrecovered codependent who was like, oh no, just have it, take it, you know, whatever.

And so that was wild. I mean, I just like burst into tears when I heard that cuz there was a, even if it's not true, I don't know how this all could have aligned to all feel true but not be true. I'm sure a lot of people worked in it cuz I said, I was like, I feel like a lot of people probably worked in horse carriages back then. That was like the main business, right? And he was like, no, but he invented like this,

this thing that made everything else actually work and reduced injuries, deaths of people, you know, so in his mind, he was doing something great. And then I guess I have some, it's invisible. I don't know how to explain it. Maybe Huberman can explain it. Maybe Sinclair can explain it, whoever, maybe, you know, the guy that does Long Path, maybe he can explain it. But it was such a relief to go, okay, yes, I'm just a good person that cares about animals, but also like, this is bigger than me. What else that's bigger than me am I running around with all day, just being played like a puppet.

And also if he figured out how to latch multiple carriages together for the horse to pull, he is responsible for increasing the burden on the horse. Right? Which may be- Which at the time- Informs your sensitivity around that burden. At the time probably kept people fed,

probably did a lot of good things back then. And now it's this disgraceful thing we do as humans that whether we know it or not, it's slowly corroding our self-worth and it's slowly corroding how we feel about other people. And at a time where we feel quote, divided than ever and we are more suspicious than others than ever and we see stuff like that. You're just like what kind of person, it takes a toll on our ability to be around people

I think kind of in general. And so I was like, okay, yeah, this is a responsibility that I've inherited. Like I need to fix that thing my ancestors did. Like I carried this with me and what else am I carrying? You know, it's, you know, when people are like, we're in a simulation, I'm like, yeah, we're in a simulation. Like we're being played by our ancestors. Right. That's how I like

to look at it. Yeah, and your job is to disentangle all of that bullshit and create new, healthier pathways. Because if you don't, that's getting passed on to your kid and that kid's kid. So these things will continue to play out unless you shoulder that responsibility for healing that and finding a better kind of way. And you gotta do some recon, you know?

And I think for me in terms of the connection to animals, like yes, a lot of people that carry, I don't, why am I, why do I have a problem with the word trauma? I feel like it's gotten like popular. Well, it's sort of been, yeah, it is, it's been played out a little bit, I think, but I don't know what's a better word for it.

Cause now I feel like when I say it, it seems like I'm exaggerating cause so many people are like, they were out of oat milk, I am traumatized. So now I feel like I'm exaggerating, you know, but I'm talking about childhood sexual abuse. I think we can agree that's traumatic. Yes, I think we're all'm talking about childhood sexual abuse. I think we can agree that's true. Yes, I think we're all on the same page about that.

I think we can agree, are we cool? Okay. But I also think trauma is appropriately defined as things outside of that as well. I think people think of trauma in a limited context that it can only be sexual abuse or physical abuse, et cetera. Which is some of my most impactful traumas were not any of those.

One of them was I was in class one day and my tuition hadn't been paid and someone came and pulled me out of class, a teacher and said, we need to talk to you. Your bill isn't paid. I mean, I was like six or seven or something. And I remember that deep embarrassment. I mean, at that age six or seven or something. And I remember that deep embarrassment. I mean, at that age, not understanding what was going on and it was embarrassing. And I think that

moving forward, they said that, I think it was Chris Rock that said, comedians become comedians to control how they're embarrassed. My biggest fear in life is being embarrassed. And there was a couple of things like that that happened, that I look back and I'm like that's when it started. And so the animal thing really was just as someone that from a very early age did not trust humans or was scared of humans didn't understand what they wanted. Because when someone hurts you in that way at that age, they're beguiling you with something kind or nice.

They're confusing you and then they're hurting you. And then as an adult, you grow up to see innocent voiceless things being used for someone else's benefit just ephemerally treating them like trash or treating them like something just to serve them that is voiceless. Horses can't email, they can't make phone calls. And I have some kind of like thing where it's like, I go a little bit into a, what is it when you just like go offline?

It's not fight, flight or freeze. Like a fugue state? Maybe. I go into a rage, a dissociative rage, but I get very calm. Like I will smash someone's window with the dog in a hot car that's locked. Like it's no big deal.

I have the hammer in my car. It's like, I'm not like reflexive. It's very calm. It's just in that moment, I don't remember doing it. I don't know if you saw, or maybe because you were around for the Woolsey fires. Remember the giraffe? So I was the maniac that went to get it out.

Oh, you did. Wow. Remember that whole, like the giraffe? Also, I remember all the horses went down to Zuma, right? On the beach, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so it was just like,

it, people were like, I was the only person driving that. I drove in a, an electric car in a Tesla over like five power lines that were down. I mean, I look back and I'm like, it's actually just a weird miracle that I survived that, but it's not a choice. It's just kind of like,

I don't feel scared in a time of crisis. I'm not scared of animals. So there's this deep programming inside of you that just takes over the operating system functions with your conscious decision-making like offline. Because I know they're scared and I can't tolerate it. Like I know they know. Like, and they're so, it's so wild

that we just have decided that animals don't have any sentience at all. Like we look at monkeys and we think- Because it's too painful to recognize the truth around that. So it's just a convenient rationalization to make us feel better about our behavior, I think. And I think that it's interesting because I, you know, can stop the bleeding sometimes, but kids are really the ones that are, the ones that haven't been programmed yet, that haven't been brainwashed yet.

I mean, blackfish happened because this girl was like, I'm not going there, that's disgusting, and was crying. Kids know. Kids know. They know inherently. Then they get programmed into a sort of socially acceptable way of thinking about this. And then that's how you think animals- It's fucked up. It's very you think animals- It's fucked up.

It's very fucked up. And it's fucked up that like even after black fish, like there's still like still there hasn't been enough changes. Well, people have to stop going and people have to stop patronizing it. Like Chanel didn't stop selling fur because they loved animals.

People stopped buying it, cruelty free, same thing. It's just as capitalist, people have to stop buying it, which brings me to something that the horse carriage thing is a big opportunity to practice a modicum of empathy that I don't know that I necessarily want this tool all the time, but I think it really helps because a lot of the people that are patronizing these businesses are not Americans, they're tourists and they have a different belief system around animals, you know, and I was, you know, I'm very in deep with the Korean dog meat festival, you know? And the South one, the North, whatever's happening there.

Which one is Yulin? Yulin, yeah, that's Korea. That's South Korea. Oh, Korea. Yeah, yeah, North Korea, we don't even know. Who knows what's going on. Yeah, ask Rogan, I don't know. But you go over there. Do you have a newsfeed from North Korea

that we don't have or something? Every time he texts me, I'm like, stop texting me. Someone's following your phone. But I had to find empathy. Like you have to find common ground with someone. So someone that is killing dogs, chopping off their feet, letting them, and then feeding them to other people that are ordering them and eating them.

I have to understand your belief system. I have to empathize with you. I just have to. My dad, my uncle, you do, you know, criminal defense attorney, like I have to find a way to empathize with you. And I had to build that muscle because it boils down to anyone that's poaching elephants in Africa, anyone that's killing dogs, they need money to fit. Give me another job that gives me as much money and I will do it. But I had someone, actually this person was from China, from Hong Kong, where I was like, I just think it's egregious the way y'all treat animals. I mean, like you're pulling gallbladders out of baby bears because you think that it's gonna be good for your skin. Like, what are we doing? You have bears and, you know, and he was like, okay, well, we're pretty disgusted at the

way you guys treat old people, you know? Fair point. And you're like, ah, okay, this is where the progress get, let's get gnarly. Like, let's get gnarly. This is the way, this uncomfortable conversation that is my nightmare to have. We just made some leeway. So it's really a matter of with these poachers and with the people that kill you have to these horse carriage guys, I can't take away their livelihood.

You can't be pro animal and anti human either. So it's like there is a little bit of this like trying to find a way where everybody wins. Cuz I don't think anyone wants to abuse animals, hurt animals. It means they don't have any other choices. And what's going on that this person, this was the only choice they had. And when people stand in line to ride the horse carriages in New York, I have to go, okay, they have a different value system.

They see horses as cars. They see horses as property. We put our, half my family's in nursing homes. They would find that disgraceful. Like there's a lot of epigenetics here to unpack. There's a lot of ancestral trauma and there's too much to unpack. Yeah, I mean, you can't solve the animal problem

without compassion for the humans involved. And I think that's where a lot of advocacy kind of loses sight of the bigger picture and actually what would be productive in solving the problem, as opposed to being outraged about the problem. And then also realizing that like a little bit of a problem that we have at the moment

is not that trans people are mean and Gen Xers want everyone to be canceled and people that abuse animals, shoot them in the head as soon as they have a broken. The problem is we're only hearing from the extreme people that are not particularly sane. And by sane, I just mean like don't have great bedside manner and aren't interested in solving the problem or empathizing with you or understanding why you dislike them or why you said the thing you said and

try to understand. Because a lot of times when you're going, you shouldn't say said the thing you said and try to understand. Because a lot of times when you're going, you shouldn't say that word, you're engaging in ageism. We never talk about that. You know, sexism, homophobic, we talk about all those racism, but like expecting, you know,

someone who's 60 to know that the term is now non-binary instead of, you know, gender creative or whatever, that's ageist. Like where would they have learned that? Like that's not in the, you know, Pensacola Chronicle.

Starts to get really confusing. News, yeah, have some compassion and go, oh my God, no one's, this person doesn't know any trans people. This is a person, let me, you know, help this person understand. I don't think this person wants to hurt me. So there's also, we're not giving people

the benefit of the doubt when they, you know, because there's no nuance online or whatever, but the same thing with animal, which is part of the reason I do feel the need to kind of talk about it sometimes. Not that I come off particularly well adjusted, but a lot of animal rescue people have come from trauma, sexual trauma. Yeah, of course. Aren't healed. And it turns into, fuck you, you piece of shit, and you're fucking trash, and I'm going to throw red paint on you on your way to work. And it's just sort of like, we haven't matured yet and healed our wounds

in order to engage in this in a mature way where we're actually solution oriented and not just on the drug of adrenaline. Yeah, I mean the best way to problem solve and like the best comedians are the people who are willing to grapple with their wounds and engage in the healing process, right? Like I think there's this idea, particularly with addicts,

that it's our brokenness that gives us our specialness and that is our superpower that fuels that creative impulse or makes us special and unique and different. And the prospect of sobriety, whether it be, you know, substance sobriety or emotional sobriety is perilous because you have to break up with that friend that you were reliant upon, that you were convinced was the thing that was fueling your specialness

or your talent or your comedy or whatever it is. Yes, that was literally an award-winning segue. Hmm, it was good, right? I mean, that was like unbelievable. I don't think people understand how deftly, like that is as a comedian watching someone do a segue that's not, and speaking of carbohydrates, can you just say, wait, what?

That was masterful. You're not manipulating me, are you? No, what for what? I'm already here. Yeah, okay. There's nothing else I could give you. And so, you know, horses just real quick, you know, animals, prey animals, dogs, cats, all of it.

I believe we are as a species sleeping on some of the most therapeutic tools that we have right here. Horses hold up mirrors to your behavior. Horses will tell you everything about yourself that you need to know. They will tell you how you come off at parties. They will tell you how obvious you're- Who is a good candidate for equine therapy?

So a couple of things. I also real quick, let me also talk about wolf therapy for boys because- You've been to Wolf Connection, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Our daughter, we had a birthday party for her at Wolf Connection. That is incredible.

Was Bo there, the Wolf Bo? I'm sure he was. This was several years ago. Oh, yeah, he was there. He's dead now. Yeah, yeah. Oh. It's okay.

But that was an incredible experience being there. So I don't know if they did this for you, but what do we call like at-risk use now? Like, what's that called? I think it's what you just called it. Kids, is that what it is? I mean, aren't- Is there a new word for that? There's gotta be like a better word for that. I'm not like trying to get a new word. I'm not

that guy, but I'm just saying like kids that, you know, were in and out of rehab in rough homes, foster care kids, you know, kids that just didn't have a stable, consistent environment. And this was just boys. Don't get into it with the gender thing. You do not wanna do this with me. And so it's just boys at risk. And they couldn't work with therapists. They couldn't work with juvie,

social workers, anything, because it was like all about being tough and fucked at it. I don't have any feelings. And like, no, man, I'm hard and I'm this. And you're like, okay, cool. There's no getting through to this. This guy has a shield up that nothing's gonna, and the more I patronize and go like, how are you feeling?

The more he's gonna just shut down and go inward and feel misunderstood. So one of the most sort of magical exercises we do with at-risk youth and younger kids dealing with addiction, having seen violence in the home and such and thinks violence is the best way to solve a problem, which I feel like that might need to come back. That's a different story. Just some, don't you feel like some people just need once, like to be hit in the face just once?

Sure. You gotta like, it's like, you gotta reboot the operating system when it starts to fragment or like the little beach ball starts to spin around, right? When I was 11, my mom slapped me in the face. I couldn't see for like 30 seconds.

I had called her a hooker. I should have said sex worker, I don't know. But slapped me in the face changed my life, changed my life. I absolutely deserved it and I was like, got it. Like that, every day I look back on that and I'm like, thank God she smacked me in the face, like I know how to bite my tongue now, you know. But just so you know, I think it was Mike Tyson who said the problem with social media is people got used to talking trash

and not getting punched in the face. You know, so it's just, that's, I say that half joking. Yeah, or like everything, you can have your plan until you get punched in the face. Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face.

Yeah, but I mean, just people who are just like, fuck you, you're trash. Like you're, and then it's like, if you said that in person, you would have been hit in the face. So, you know, so everyone's a little confused about how consequences work. So Wolf Connection, you got these kids, they're, you know, eight, nine, 10, 11, 12, 14. you would have been hit in the face. So everyone's a little confused about how consequences work.

So wolves connection, you got these kids, they're eight, nine, 10, 11, 12, 14. They've been in rehab, they've been drinking, they're in juvie, whatever. And you talk about the wolves. So there's 10, some are crossed with German shepherds, the whole story because people fight wolves. I was gonna make a dig at Texas, but I love you, Texas. My mom is from Texas, but you guys really like to keep wolves in your basement. And so there's all these rescued wolves and

each of them are in a different enclosure and you can see them all. And every wolf is doing something different. One of them is digging, one of them is sort of like moving stuff around. One of them is like sniffing under their blanket. One of them is pissing, one of them is howling. One of them is just like scratching on the fence at the other wolf. One of them is sleeping, one of them is tearing some shit

up, one of them is hiding scared. And then you tell everyone what they're doing, explain their behavior and then you ask all the kids like, who's the alpha in this pack? And they're always like, the one barking.

You're like, no, the one howling, man. Oh no, the one that's eating, obviously. You're like, it's the one that's sleeping. Because when you have true power, you don't need to run around and show people how powerful you are. The best thing you can do is just take care of yourself. Like if you wanna fight someone,

like maybe just go take a nap. Like that's the most gangster shit you can do. Yeah, and the confidence that all your guys are gonna watch out for you. Exactly, exactly. And like let people get you like hold your space, like be regal, and so that's pretty cool. And then you go like, oh, this guy Beau,

like he was taken from his mom too young and his dad was never around. So he's more feral and this one had a brother that would beat up on him all the time. That's why he has half of an ear. And then you go through and you go like, which one's your favorite? And they'll be like, dude, I love bow man.

That goes, and you're like, okay, so dad stuff. Like they can talk through that. You can identify what their core issue is through which wolf they gravitate towards. As long as they get to be like a wolf. So like, I think that we just go all wrong about trying to communicate with kids because we don't talk about what they value.

You know, we're just like, you're autistic. It's like, okay, can I get a metaphor? You know what I mean? Can I get a, like, can you put this in terms that I either number one, understand, or number two, care about? You know, in terms of horses, there's a lot, there's so many incredible benefits

from equine therapy, specifically Agala, E-A-G-A-L-A, and Liberty Training, which is basically what I do is I take horses that were abused and make them wild again. Horses whose spirits are broken, race horses, horses that were abused, dressage horses. A lot of times they use studded bits, so they put them through tunnels and scare them, and they're not allowed to roll. And so the idea is- You can bring them back?

Wow. You just have to give them freedom and treat them with respect. And you can, you know, my first guy, it took a little bit of time, you know, cause I was still learning, but horses are so patient because they know your motives. So they're so patient with you when you screw up.

They're so patient when you try too hard. You know, you just, for me in the beginning, I just had to say my inner monologue out loud at all times just to make sure I'd be like, I'm insecure that you don't like me. And now you're walking away. Why would you walk away and smell poop? Like poop is better than me. Like, why do you like poop more than you like me? And then I'm kind of going like, what kind of maniac is trying to compete with an animal's desire to smell poop? Like that's just not me respecting this animal's nature and ancestry, which sometimes we do with human beings is too all the time, men and women, kids, adults, whatever.

So it was sort of like, oh God, I really need other people to behave a certain way in order to be comfortable. That's bad news. Cause 95% of the time, nobody acts the way I want them to. So I better figure out a way to feel comfortable without. Really like hammers home that lesson inside job, dude. And, um, and also, you know, we do with like young girls, guys need it too. But the whole deal with horses is they will test

you constantly to see how much self-respect you have. They want to see like what you're made of. They want to see how much, cause they want you to like yourself. They want you to be confident. They want you to be regal. So they'll test you and they'll test you. And then you'll see people going, stop, stop. You're like, okay, let's talk through why that was how you were gonna solve that problem. In general, it doesn't work. Why did that horse even think it could get that close to you? Why did you even allow it in your space at all?

Well, it's just something you start moving and then it, okay, great. I see who you are. I can, you know, so we take these energy extenders. They're not whips. And basically girls learn like, no, you have to say it the same way. Your energy has to match where you can't go. No, your communication has to be Congress.

Right. To get the result you want. And horses- Clear, affirmative, and like flexing a healthy boundary with honesty that garners respect. Correct, but it starts here. And like you mentioned boundaries earlier and we never got to them, but just the idea

of boundaries aren't for them, they're for you. And if someone violates your boundary, you don't set another boundary, you remove yourself from the situation. That's a personal boundary. So if I say no to the horse, no to the horse, and I'm being clear and it still is going to disrespect me, I just remove myself entirely.

And then we can start again later because you got your consequence and let's see if we can coexist. So it's like, cause we don't realize how much, isn't it 70% of communication is nonverbal, but we only focus on that 30% of just words, bullshit, bullshit, like words are just bullshit. And so it's such a healing experience to be around animals and just go,

that's why that person I never got along. Cuz I was like, how are you doing? How is everything? Like I'm confusing cuz I learned to be a confusing communicator and horses only deal with like clarity. And then also just, I mean the things I've learned just, I mean, you go on and on, I mean even the things I've learned just, I mean, you go on and on. I mean, even about your breath, you know, because they are attuned to breath.

So if I'm like, they're gone, dude, because that's how you breathe. If you're scared, your amygdala shut off. So when you're, I know humans, I'm sure come on and done a billion times, you know, of like the energy. So a lot of people come into their office and they're like, why is everyone in such a bad mood? You take responsible for your energy and how contagious it is. Energy contagion is so real. And when watching a horse, when it's around ugly energy or energy that doesn't serve them, that's depleting or confusing, just removes itself. That was a tool that I didn't even know existed. It didn't even occur to me. You could just leave if someone wasn't, you didn't have to keep talking, just get up and go. I didn't even know that was. You could just like leave. If someone wasn't, you didn't have to keep talking,

just get up and go. I didn't even know that was an option. I thought it was like you get on the dance floor and you're dancing until your partner gets off. Like just go sit on the bench when in doubt. Get off the dance floor. What are you doing? So working with horses,

there's no more rewarding relationship than having a personal one with a horse because you really know your value. And you really, they keep you accountable on a daily basis. Can't stay clean on the shower you took yesterday. So it's like yesterday we had the best time and he trusted me so much. And he invited me to get on his back and we ran around and then you walk by the next day while he's eating, he looks up and I was like, hi. You're like, I thought we had. Right. Okay. Earn it again. I got gotta earn it again. How many, do you have your own horses

or do you go somewhere else? Like, are you actually teaching this or what is the situation? So the teacher that I have is this wonderful girl, Genevieve Ayer, she's a Gala and Liberty instructor. She works with kids on the spectrum and such. Kids on the spectrum have incredible gifts when it comes to being able to communicate non-verbally with animals, It's so amazing to see. And it's so amazing to watch a kid

who people are always like, what do you want? I can't understand what you want. And the horse is just like, got it. And they're just simpatico and they found the person that understands them. It's the most incredible thing. Like you're not broken. You're actually just like hyperintuitive, you know? So that's really cool to see. I basically will rescue the horse, I'll do the liberty training. There's also, this is getting very granular. There's a practice called being with horses as a German woman. I can send you the kindle link about how to have an equal relationship with

horses where you're basically have a 50-50 relationship that's based in respect. And you can have such, you can do such cooler things with a horse because horses, when they want to communicate with you, they start to mimic you. So I'll like jump over a jump and he'll jump over a jump and I'll do this and he'll jump up in the air. You know, it's like, it's the coolest thing in the world to be able to get to that point. But rescuing them, getting new ones. I mean, it's just my kink. I'm like, I love it so much. It's just the best. They have eternal wisdom. I mean, they have eternal, they know when it's gonna rain. There's this famous story about a horse, and I think it was Virginia, that wouldn't go under a bridge, wouldn't go under a bridge. They're beating it,

they're beating it, wouldn't go under a bridge. wouldn't go under a bridge. They're beating it. They're beating it, wouldn't go under a bridge. And the next morning it collapsed. I mean, they just have all this, and we're just sitting on all this wisdom. We're just like running the other direction away from mirrors. Dog training, same thing. You know, people go if, oh, I had to rescue this dog and its behavior, is it what I want? I'm going to return it. It's like, you're missing the opportunity to learn so much about yourself from training this dog.

So that's why I also love getting foster dogs and training them. Cause I always learn so much about my lack of patience, about my need. I wanna give you a treat cause I wanna make you like me. Still, I'm still doing this. I'm still doing this. I had my ear bitten off by a dog.

You know, I knew what to, I knew not to do that, but I conflated love and pity, which is a huge thing that codependents do. And I was like, oh my God, I'm gonna let him sleep in the bed with me, which is a dominant behavior, letting a dog lick your face or be in the bed with you. And it had been taken from its mom too young

and their mouth is their hands. So I got down to play with it one day and it just bit my ear off. Not out of aggression. Nothing personal. Nothing personal. They're just made of knives. And that was my fault.

And I think it's really cool to work with animals because they won't do or say anything that will make you so mad that it's easy to blame. So if you and I have like a rough conversation and we're both kind of wrong in the way we handled it, because we went into our trauma response, I was like, well, if you hadn't had an office all the way out here,

and then all of a sudden we're both assholes, with animals, you're always the asshole. And that's such a great opportunity. You have no one to blame. Right. Which is like kind of the best thing ever because you don't have to spend all this time wondering whose fault it was, it was yours.

How many animals do you keep in your house then? You rescue them and then get them to other places or you have like a menagerie running around? It depends on who's asking. If animal control, I have three. But I have, I take- No one's listening. They're not listening.

If they saw that I'm on, they're definitely not listening. They're so sick of me. We'll just beep it. No, I have a revolving door of animals. I have four dogs. Four dogs. Are you being honest? No.

No, I do. This is, you know what? Because it's just too boring. There's a lot of dogs that I've rescued and I still pay for their medical care, but they live with other people and they have wonderful lives and stuff. So to me, rehabilitating an animal is always so therapeutic for me. Everyone's like,

you're such a hero. I'm like, I get way more out of it than the animals. So I do these, there've been a couple of dodo videos where I've rescued dogs that were just really like three broken legs and learned to, they remind me how resilient we are. Because dogs, when they have two broken legs or missing legs, they remind me how resilient we are. Cause dogs, when they have, you know, two broken legs or missing legs, they're just like, let's fucking party. Like they don't let it stop them. And I'm like, what's my excuse?

Yeah, it's always inspiring those videos of dogs that are all kinds of animals doing cool stuff. That girl was from high school was mean to me at the reunion. So I'm gonna just totally regress into a petty bitch. Like this dog had three legs and it's like, let's go to the beach. And they are so confused when you feel sorry for them. They don't wanna be pitied. So I think, yeah, and I think watching Dodo videos, I think that's also a tool. I think scheduling positive content is key. Watch one

Dodo video a day. You know what? People are awesome. When you see a guy jump in a river to save a dog, like it really helps balance out the Twitter mob. Everyone's a psycho now. Yeah, I love the Dodo. I have, I think, three Dodo videos because I had a pig that I rescued,

a Shar-Pei that was, it was in a crime, so it can't be adopted out. So I sometimes take dogs that are evidence in a crime so that they can't be taken back, like exotic animals. So exotic, and this is also part of the reason that I've learned so much about the exotic animal trade. And it's, I wish it, my nightmares on no one, but usually when there's lions, tigers, bears being trafficked,

there's also a lot of exotic dogs. This was an albino Shar-Pei, I got a pharaoh dog. And then often, this is the main, main, main, main, main, main, main reason that I have no compassion for animal abusers is because anyone who's abusing an animal is almost always, there's no chance that they don't go inside, kick a dog, not hit their kid or their wife or whatever. So the dog or the animal is just a socially acceptable type of abuse. Like when you go in the door, it's gonna continue. And also when people traffic exotic animals,

humans are always in the truck as well. So it's like, if you see a tiger in someone's backyard, chances are there's something else going on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, for sure. So it's like, just, it's something else going on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, for sure. So it's like, just, it's all the same stuff. It's arms dealers, traffickers, psychopaths, you know, animals, the whole deal.

So it's like- It's pretty, it gets pretty dark pretty quick. Yeah, and I'm like, it's kind of my dream to just like hunt these people. Cause there's something I, but that's a superpower I have. I am not scared of the things most people are scared of. I'm scared of like eye contact. Being like Damien Mander, do you know Damien Mander?

No. We'll talk afterwards. But he was a special forces dude who had a lot of trauma from being in combat, et cetera. And basically became aware of what was going on with exotic animal trade in parts of Africa. And he was like, fuck these guys. And he basically went there with all of his skills

and was like, I'm gonna end this problem. And now he's created this militia that's all women. I think it's called the Akasha. There's a little documentary about it. I'll send it to you. To really kind of police poaching in their native territories. He did an unbelievable TED talk.

Do you know what I'm talking about? I know. And the tricky part about that is like, it's really is like, we can go stop the bleeding, stop the bleeding, but until we talk to the government. Create the, and the demand. And the demand, and also governments there actually give you, a lot of it is a nuisance.

There was an amazing article that a woman, an African woman wrote. I think it was about, remember when that guy shot that lion? Which guy? Lots of guys shoot lions. Like, I mean, it was like famous. He was like a politician or something. He shot a lion and it kind of went viral. And people started talking about trophy hunting for two seconds. And a lot of people don't understand that lions are a very

real nuisance in Africa. And a woman wrote a piece that said, why we don't cry for lions? Because every time our kids leave the house, we worry about them. So I'm the first person, I have coyote dens all over my property and I have a little water station for them. They have everything they need. But if they come for my animal, it's a wrap. So if you're in America and you're like, what's the one animal that you'd kind of be fine with this? I'd be like, coyotes, dude, fuck those things. Because they are not wired to attune to us, to serve us nothing. And I know if it's between me going, here little, and killing my dog, they'll kill it.

So they also see it as that. I'm not killing a lion, I'm just protecting my children. And you can't get between that. And so it's really about changing laws, kind of the more boring stuff of going and going like, why are these poachers getting a stipend for doing this? Why are they getting tax breaks for doing this? Because it makes it easy for you guys to spend less taxes on cleaning up all the crop

destruction or the police force we have to hire to deal with this or whatever. It's solving a problem for them in some way. And then also, why don't you have the kind of economy where these people can actually have jobs that doesn't include this? Well, that's the big thing. If there was a better option for those people as well. They would take it. They would take it. So I'm always thinking, how do we horse carriage people? It's like, these people have been doing this for 30 years. They own this horse. You're just taking their livelihood from them.

We have to replace the livelihood. So it's not now their only option in life. So that's like the kind of activism that actually gets up done instead of just like, fuck you. And then moving on with your day. Like that just makes people think animal people are crazy. Thanks for that. So I know you love my segue, my transition,

but then I don't feel like we segwayed into it. Wait, what was it? I thought you wanted to talk about comedy. No, so, cause we gotta get out of here. I know. But I don't wanna end it. Is this your longest? I think it might be.

No, I think we did, I did a four hour one once, but we're getting close to that. Cause I think I was trying to go to like, horses really help you look in the mirror. Well, I think the idea was, yeah, like just the journey of self healing and like becoming an integrated whole person and how that actually allows you to flourish

in a way that feels antithetical to what you might think it is. And to kind of like maybe round this out with some thoughts on that, because I think people are really afraid, A, it's scary to tackle the things that you don't wanna look at in yourself. And there is that fear that if you do that,

then you're gonna be this different person and you're gonna lose whatever it is that you feel like makes you, you and allows you to do you in the world. Like I'm going to lose what makes me a cocaine addict. What would possibly, God forbid I change any of this precious programming. Just something real quick that you said about looking at yourself and then accepting it, etc. And something that is a miracle about 12-step programs that will get into comedy. 12-step programs really taught me, say the most disgusting thing you thought to do today, and you will destroy in this room. So also that practice of telling someone your deepest, darkest secret,

telling someone I just did cocaine 400, you know, grams of it last week or whatever, and they still hang out with you. Right. Yeah. So you have the data of like, I can acknowledge all these parts of myself and people won't leave. They won't think I'm disgusting. They won't think I'm trash, you know? And then to go on stage and talk about it, have people laugh and then pay you is the ultimate way to sort of heal all that shame about your thoughts and the way it's like, I can use this for something. And that's how I took, God, sorry, like my power back. I was like, wait a second,

maybe all of the worst things about me will like help other people. Talking about it will like help other people. And it forces me to tell the truth because I came from an environment where it was just like everything was a lie. I'm five minutes out. You're not. You are an hour away and we're jumping in the shower. No, you're not. Little lies, big lies, all of it. And you can't lie to an audience whose reaction is involuntary. You can perform for your own fans and get clapped and stuff, but everyone knows what that is.

Because as someone that was so obsessed with dishonest feedback, no, you look great. No, I'm fine. Like I only believe in involuntary reaction. So if someone laughs or doesn't laugh, they're right. And that is very. And that's something you really can't fake. That makes me feel so, I can fake a couple other things,

but that's a different conversation. But it's really soothing to just be able to believe everyone, to just believe whatever, like no one's kissing your ass, no one, like it's just great. Everything you guys just did, whether I liked it or not is true. And that is like the best feeling in the world.

But you also have to tell the truth. You know, and I think that after I spent time, you know, with animals my whole life, life and learning truth is the most important way that you can maintain self-esteem is just telling the truth, the absence of secrets. So we always say, we're only as sick as the secrets we keep. It took me so long to take that adage seriously, and I cannot believe how it changed my life. It was like taking steroids or something. It was just like I was twice as successful. I was twice as happy in my relationships. People liked me twice as much just because I was like telling the truth and not in trying to,

not patronizing them with lies because they can't handle that I'm gonna be late. They'll be fine. They'll look at their phone, whatever. And next time leave 15 minutes earlier, you fucking selfish brat. And so it felt like kind of a natural sort of projection there. I think for me, however, being a stand up comedian, I'm gonna be really honest. I think that a lot of it came was my wiring. And then some things that I guess you would maybe categorize as traumas in terms of I was alone so much, you know? And when someone was around, you had to make them laugh right away to keep their attention.

You know, if they're drinking, they're socializing, they're doing compulsive behaviors. Like you have a minute to get this person's attention or to get this laugh, or this is your only opportunity to get some self-esteem today or be seen, you know, and you got to move fast. Also, I think that I'm not going to be the person to spearhead this, but our names are a big part of why we are who we are, what we're named, you know? I mean, your name is Rich. Right.

That worked out. Yeah, Rich Roll, Rock and Roll, Dick Roll. Yeah. And then my mom's maiden name is Spindle. And- Did she come from- And her brother was Dick Spindle. What? Hello.

Dick Spindle? Yeah. How about that? Your uncle should have married Whitney Cummings. Well, I could have, if we got married and I took your name, it would be Dick Cummings. How about that?

Well, do you want better? My parents, before they got married, my mom's last name was Cumming and his is Cummings. She was Patty Cumming Cummings. No way. So had I taken her last name, you'd be Dick Cumming, which is even better because it's the verb, not the noun. Yeah, that's better.

But this thing I was always so embarrassed about, I didn't realize that it was funny until much later, but I was made fun of constantly. I mean, it's just like the best way to bully someone. Whitney, come in your mouth, come on your face. I would get my test papers back in school where my name, Whitney Cummings, someone scribbled it out, C-U-M, on your mouth. It was just constant. So I had to find a way to joke about it. I had to find a way to embarrass myself first,

to own the bullying, to make fun of myself because I know they're gonna make fun of this name. So I think that your name has a really big part of your character in a lot of ways. I think a lot of really successful people have really complicated names. Have you noticed that? Because they've had to constantly correct people.

They've had to, this is a theory I'm working on. Please tell me if I'm wrong. But when you see those people that are like, hi, my name is Aardvark McMahon Desoit. And you're like, Aardvark? No, it's Aardvark. Like you have to claim your space. You have to stand up.

You have to make sure, you know, you develop confidence that way, you know? And so, you know, I think my name definitely got me thinking in terms of you better be funny all the time. You better think fast. Well, it sounds like your dad was funny and always was wanting to engage with you on that. My dad was so funny.

He would pick me up from school and would usually be late, but didn't matter. Later, he would, I don't know if you ever saw Three Amigos. I mean, forever ago. The movie. I wouldn't remember. It's one of my- I just have the visual image of those guys sitting around a campfire.

Night, Ned. What? That's what he said. Good night, Ned. I don't even remember. The bat said it, yeah. I don't remember. But there was a moment where it was Steve Martin was up on a billboard and they were trying to do some furtive heist. And Martin Short and Chevy Chase were looking for him and couldn't find him.

And Steve Martin goes, look up here, look up here. Like he was trying to be discreet about it. And it's such a dumb moment. And he's like, look up here, look up here. Trying to do bird sounds to get him to look. And then finally he goes, hey guys, it gets so stupid. But I knew my dad was there because I would just hear, look up here, look up.

And my dad, I didn't know where he was. He'd be like hiding behind a car. He's just like every moment was an opportunity to make people laugh, every single moment. He just, he didn't understand the point of engaging with someone if you weren't asking them questions about themselves. Or he always said to me, he's like,

there's no point in ever disliking anyone. If you don't like someone, it just means you haven't asked them enough questions about themselves. You know, and he always said, it was annoying when I was a kid, but now it's served me so well. Anyone he would meet, where are you from, man?

Oh, Cincinnati. Oh yeah, down on the, and then I don't even know if he had been to all these places or not, but he would always be like, what's the best, what's that burrito place? And they'd be like, ah, Mama's Burritos. Yes.

Like he would just- Always trying to connect. Always trying to make people's day. And it was always people that waitresses, janitors, whatever. And I didn't even realize what a gift that was, but something that he used to do to me and I think that I didn't realize this until very recently. The pandemic, I had a couple, thank God that wasn't totally wasted. I had a couple of breakthroughs in terms of going, I'm gonna radically forgive my parents. Let me just turn everything into a positive.

And I remember this is the way we used to study. So he would have the textbook, I'm trying to really talk fast. He would have a textbook and he would say, okay, say all the date of the Civil War, the date the American Indians came over. They were called that then, the date of the Civil War, the date the American Indians, you know, came over. They were called that then, you know, the date of the Spanish-American War, the date of the... And then I would have, like, have it. I had to say it backwards and forwards. Spanish-American War, date, Civil War, Spanish-American War.

You know, like he would throw me curveballs and stuff like that. And then he closed the book. And then he'd go... I mean, how do we know the book is right? I mean, there's no way this is all right. I mean, this was just some like hearsay, like some guy was like, hey, I think the civil war started like a pro

and then he would basically say, question everything. You need to learn it all to pass the test, but question all of this. Wow. And so I think that's part of what formed me in terms of being a comedian. Which is really the comedian's mantra, right? Question everything.

And I- And you have this obsession with human psychology and human behavior and all of that too. And we can't stop until something makes sense. And I think it's very much like trying to figure out what people meant when we were young, we had to, everything had to add up. Neil Brennan always says it's very much like trying to figure out what people meant when we were young. Everything had to add up. Neil Brennan always says it's an obsession with justice,

which I think is a great way to look at it. And I always like to say that comedians say something that isn't true and then they prove it. Comedians say something that isn't true and then prove it. The jokes. Right. And then also it's like you're a lawyer So, and that also, it's like, you're a lawyer basically,

you're defending a criminal idea. You're like, we should do rehab for pedophiles. Hear me out. You know what I mean? Joke, joke, joke, joke, joke, joke, joke. I have a bit in my last special where it's like, I think we need to get rid of ballet. Ballet is bad, hear me out.

And then I got to dig myself out of the hole with the jokes, the things you haven't heard of. You know, and then I have to defend my point, which is the most fun thing in the world. Having someone go, that's a ridiculous idea. I'm never gonna side with you. And then just slowly like get them to change their minds. You know, I think that's what's so fun about standup is like you get to get like someone

to think critically about something that they maybe have never thought about before. I think the great comedians do that. They get you to look at something that you take for granted completely differently. Question everything. Yeah, question everything. Memorize the textbook first, then question everything.

Do you think anything we learned in school is true? I mean, I was with my niece, she's 15. I don't know. We were doing her homework. I was like- I don't remember she's 15. I don't know. We were doing her homework. I was like- I don't remember any of it. Oh, they erased that. Good, they realized that was,

I mean, I'm like, when I was a kid, I learned the Native Americans and the pilgrims had a wonderful meal together. Yeah, that was the extent of it. They had a party, they wore the buckle shoes. Like they had a great time. They had a plethora, What is it? Panoply? Cornucopia. The horn of plenty.

Exactly. They just hung out. They traded blankets. It seemed like everything was fine, you know? So it's, you know, who knows? But I'm so grateful for that. And that's something I remember people saying like, why is your dad making you like, at the time I thought it was wrong. It was like, I'm the kid in school going like, yeah, but was that really true? But like, are you sure it happened that way? And I was seemed annoying and crazy, you know? But it was like, okay,

this is the only profession I can really do. Cause I get my OCD gets so intense. I think about something so intensely, you know, Louis CK always says, if you think about something more than three times a week, you gotta just write about it. Right. Well, I wanna get into like how the writing process works

and how that all happens, but we're gonna have to do that on a different day. We have to stay tuned. We're now like well into longest podcast ever terrain territory. You're now a marathon podcaster. Which I'm good with. I'm the ultra endurance athlete.

I'm cool with all of it. I need a cold plunge. Yeah, I know. Really quick, can I just ask you really quick, the supplements you take on a daily basis? Oh, geez, I mean, it varies. I mean, I take athletic greens, I take- Promo code Whitney.

Yeah, I take vitamin D, I take B12. But if you're gonna be outside in the sun, do you still take vitamin D? I do, my D levels are fine, but from what I understand, even being out in the sun a lot, you can still be deficient. Most people are vitamin D deficient.

You gotta sun your butthole. Yeah, oh right. What is it called? I don't know. Perineum sunning? Perineum. The perineum thing. Perineum sunning. Are you into that?

No. All right, we're going off the rails. We gotta end it for the day. I know, I know. I just was dying to know. Thank you for having me. Cool, thank you. Wonderful to finally meet you. That was super fun.

What a pleasure. Sorry I kept you guys so long. Come back and do it again sometime. Check out Whitney's podcast, good for you. The new special is called Jokes on Netflix. No politics. No politics, yes. Appeals to everyone.

I just, it's our job to bring people together. We didn't even talk about your special or anything. I feel bad. What happened here? Is this bad? No. I feel like you're... What do you mean? How we do, you decide. Really?

Giselle, Giselle likes it. I'm really happy. I wanted to talk about mental health. That's what we talked about. How do you feel? Honestly, it's good. I don't have feelings. You don't? I'm kidding. I'm gonna look to you to decide how I should feel.

No, I feel like we were honest and not rushing to get to anything. No, it was good. I think it was the best. Do people really care about comedy? People hate us now. I mean. I don't think so.

No, we need you. We need you more than ever. But we should get to that. Yeah, maybe next time. Cause I do think everyone should do stand up at some point, even if they only do it once, even if you just set up a little room at your office and do it with some coworkers, it will change your life.

Yeah, it's very scary. If somebody said you can go skydiving or get up and do stand up, that's a toss up for me. No way. Yeah, for sure. See, that is fascinating to me. That's why I think everyone should do it once. I think you'd be surprised.

It's like a great thrill and you learn so much about yourself and everyone needs to be a public speaking now, whether you're giving presentations, any field you're in. It's a skill that I think if everyone had, they'd be a little less anxious all the time. All right, well, we'll explore that more next time. Cheers, thanks Whitney.

Unless you're a younger, prettier girl than me, please don't start stand-up. I'm already terrified. Nip it in my heels. That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guest, including links and resources related to everything discussed today,

visit the episode page at richroll.com where you can find the entire podcast archive, as well as podcast merch, my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change in the Plant Power Way, as well as the Plant Power Meal Planner at meals.richroll.com. If you'd like to support the podcast,

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is of course awesome and very helpful. And finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books, the meal planner, and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page at richroll.com. Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camiolo with additional audio engineering by Cale Curtis.

The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis with assistance by our creative director, Dan Drake. Portraits by Davy Greenberg and Grayson Wilder. Graphic and social media assets courtesy of Jessica Miranda, Daniel Solis, Dan Drake, and AJ Akpodiete. Thank you, Georgia Whaley, for copywriting and website management.

And of course, our theme music was created by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt, and Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love, love the support. See you back here soon. Peace. Plants. Namaste. Thank you.