The Rich Roll Podcast - Why Every Kid is One Caring Adult Away From Being a Success Story (Part 1)

Episode Date: December 8, 2014

The road gets narrower. In sobriety, this phrase gets tossed around early and often. When I was new to recovery, I had no idea what these words meant. Now I catch myself reprising this mantra daily. Translation: left to my own devices, I will unconsciously and obsessively latch onto and lose myself in almost anything that promises to remove me from myself, take me out of the moment, numb my emotions, undermine my productivity and (preferably) isolate me from other humans — this is alcoholism. If I want to grow, I have to be willing to let go of old habits that no longer serve me. The more sober I get, the more certain seemingly innocuous behaviors become problematic — impediments to accessing the best version of myself. Growth requires that such behaviors constantly be assessed, addressed, modified, and in some cases discarded altogether. For me, drugs and alcohol were obviously the first to go. But the inquiry didn't end there. When drugs and alcohol were removed from my system, my dis-ease had to find secondary behavioral weaknesses to exploit — things like how I navigate my relationships and intimacy, how I relate to food, and even how I use television. Changing my diet 8 years ago helped me understand the full extent to which I would use food to medicate and regulate my emotional state — something that never previously even occurred to me. Next up was TV – a perfect way to lose myself in “harmless” entertainment and “not feel” whatever I was experiencing emotionally. So a year ago we pulled the plug on DirectTV. This was not my idea. Like giving up drugs or cheeseburgers, this was not something I wanted to do. It was something I needed to do if I wanted to continue evolving. The detox was brutal. But I can tell you now that I would never go back — my life is way better now without the box. The road continues to grow narrower. My latest struggle? Owning up to the obsessive manner in which I use my iPhone to “check out.” What good is all the meditation and mindfulness work I have been doing if every time I have a free moment I impulsively grab my phone and start addictively scrolling through Twitter, Instagram, Facebook and e-mail? Without a doubt, its become my drug of choice. I am finally willing to admit that the compulsive nature of my relationship with my beloved device is not compatible with the man I would like to become. It's a walk that doesn't meet my talk. Things have to change. So today — thanks exclusively to my provocative conversation with this week's amazing guest — I deleted Twitter, Facebook and e-mail from my iPhone. Holy crap. If you know me, then you know this is not a small thing — I damn near live on my phone. The detox already rivals anything I have previously endured. This fact alone validates my decision, does it not? To be clear, I'm not quitting social media — it has been and continues to be a huge and tremendously valuable part of my daily life. What I am doing is taking Josh's advice (per our conversation) and creating healthy boundaries around my use of these platforms so I can grow. The desired result? Enhanced emotional well being; a reduction in anxiety; an elevation of mindfulness; qualitative improvement in my interpersonal interactions; greater appreciation for the present moment; and last, but hardly least, increased focus and productivity. Enter Josh Shipp. Abandoned by his birth parents before he even left the hospital. At risk foster kid. Victim of serial abuse. Given up on by countless foster parents. From the get go, the deck was stacked against Josh, and the house always wins. Josh's future was essentially predestined to be bleak and devoid of opportunity. Then he met someone who cared.

Welcome to the Rich Roll Podcast, Episode 116, Part 1 of my conversation with Josh Shipp. The Rich Roll Podcast. Hey, everybody. My name is Rich Roll, and welcome to my humble little podcast. Got Josh Shipp on the show this week. That's right. Josh Shipp, the one and only, the teen whisperer. He's a really cool guy. We had a great conversation.

More on that in a minute. But first, I just want to take a second to say thank you. Thanks for listening. Thanks for spreading the word with your friends, your colleagues, your co-workers, even with that crazy aunt of yours. Thanks for sharing the show. Thanks for tweeting. Thanks for Facebooking, Snapchatting, Instagramming, and whatever else the kids are doing these days. Thank you for subscribing to my newsletter at richroll.com. And thank you for supporting the show by clicking through the Amazon banner ad at richworld.com for all your

Amazon purchases. That is the easiest and best way to support us financially at zero cost to you and about 2.1 seconds of time investment on your part. So if you're not doing it, come on, you guys, get on it, support us. And to all of you out there who have been doing it, thank you very much. What's up? Well, each week, the best and brightest and most forward-thinking paradigm-busting minds in health, wellness, wealth, fitness, sports, advocacy, the arts, and entrepreneurialism sit down with me to share their experience, knowledge, and insights to help you discover, uncover, unlock, and unleash your best, most authentic self. Boom. Thanks for all the support with the Dean Karnazes episode last week. That was a big one for us, you guys. iTunes helped promote it on their podcast homepage. And that was crazy because our iTunes ranking went through

the roof. I checked it earlier today and it was like 38, the number 38 podcast of all podcasts. I mean, there's like 250,000 podcasts. So to be ranked, you know, even anywhere near that is insane. So thank you guys. It's because of you. It's because of the audience that we are kind of reaching that tipping point. And I thank you very much. Real quick, as I announced the other week, I'm planning on adding in a weekly or maybe a bi-weekly Q&A edition of the podcast. So please send me your questions, send them to findingultraatgmail.com. So I have some good stuff to pull from. And the idea here is I just want to create a little bit more of a connection, a little bit more intimacy between me and you guys here in this community that we've co-created together by talking about the things that you guys want to talk about. So don't be shy,

send me that email. And just a reminder that through December 20th, we're running a big sale on all our products at richroll.com. We got $10 off my repair recovery formula, the plant-based protein recovery formula, $10 off all our t-shirts. And we have that new awesome Peace and Plants themed t-shirt, which has been really popular. And two for one on our B12 supplement. So check all of that out at richroll.com. It's a great way to pick up some cool gifts for the holidays, save a couple bucks. All right, Josh Shipp. Who is this guy, Josh Shipp? Well, he's a really interesting guy. Ship. Who is this guy, Josh Ship? Well, he's a really interesting guy. We had an amazing conversation. He's got a lot of great insights and he has an incredible personal story, an incredible personal arc in what he's endured and overcome. A former at-risk foster kid. This is a

guy who was abandoned by his birth parents. He was serially abused. He was given up on by essentially everybody, countless foster parents and foster homes. And you would think that this is a guy whose future was predestined to be pretty grim, pretty devoid of opportunity. But Josh found a way to get out. He found a way to take his past of hurt and neglect and turn it around and use it as a catalyst for helping others. And as he so often says, every kid is one caring adult away from being a success story. And I'm not going to spoil it, but that's essentially Josh's story. And that's the story that he tells the more than 2 million teens he has spoken to live that look to him for advice and insight and inspiration and guidance to take control of their lives and become something. Often referred to as the teen

whisperer, Josh is a guy who helps adults understand teens, which is huge, you know, for all the parents out there like myself. I wanna understand my teens and my soon to be teens. And he helps teens understand themselves. Today, Josh is a recognized teen behavior expert. He's a motivational speaker. He's a best-selling author. He's a TV host.

He's worked with, appeared on, and or contributed to MTV, CNN, Fox, The New York Times, 2020, Anderson Cooper Live, Oprah.com, and even Good Morning America. In 2009, he was named to Inc. Magazine's 30 Under 30 of Successful Entrepreneurs. He's lectured at Harvard, he's lectured at Stanford, UCLA, MIT, and other major universities. He starred in two documentary-style television series, Jump Ship and Teen Trouble. He founded Youth Speaker University to help young people own and tell their stories. And he's even authored two books, The Teen's Guide to World Domination and Jump Ship, turn your passion into a profession. So how did Josh find

his way out? And what do adults most misunderstand about teens? What are some of the biggest mistakes parents make in trying to communicate with their kids? How do you reach an emotionally withdrawn youth? How does Josh's experience inform his own parenting? And what is the path from helplessness to empowerment? This is a path that Josh would say begins when you truly embrace the idea that your imperfections are what make you human and your humanity is what makes you influential. and your humanity is what makes you influential. I had a feeling Josh and I were going to hit it off and we totally did. This is such an amazing conversation on so many levels. I left inspired and I left compelled to focus on some areas of my life that really need redress, that need improvement. And Josh and I could have talked

all day. We almost did. This is a long one. So, I decided to break this podcast conversation up into two parts. This is part one, obviously, and I'll post part two on Wednesday night, Pacific Standard Time. I think that's December 10th, later this week. So, tune in again for that. Your imperfections make you human. Your humanity makes you influential. What does that even mean? Well, let's dive into Josh's universe. We're brought to you today by recovery.com.

I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care. Especially because, unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. It's a real problem. A problem I'm now happy and proud to share has been solved by the people at recovery.com who created an online support portal designed to guide, support and empower you to find the ideal level of care providers to cover the full spectrum of behavioral health disorders, including substance use disorders, depression, anxiety, eating disorders, gambling

addictions, and more. Navigating their site is simple. Search by insurance coverage, location, treatment type, you name it. Plus, you can read reviews from former patients to help you decide. Whether you're a busy exec, a parent of a struggling teen, or battling addiction yourself, I feel you. I empathize with you. I really do. And they have treatment options for you. Life in recovery is wonderful, and recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one,

again, go to recovery.com. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how overwhelming

and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care, especially because, unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. It's a real problem. A problem I'm now happy and proud to share has been solved by the people at recovery.com who created an online support portal designed to guide, to support, and empower you to find the ideal level of care tailored to your personal needs. They've partnered with the best global behavioral health providers to cover the full spectrum of behavioral health disorders, including substance use disorders, depression, anxiety, eating disorders, gambling addictions, and more. Navigating their site is simple. Search by insurance coverage,

location, treatment type, you name it. Plus, you can read reviews from former patients to help you decide. Whether you're a busy exec, a parent of a struggling teen, or battling addiction yourself, Is he exec, a parent of a struggling teen, or battling addiction yourself? I feel you. I empathize with you. I really do. And they have treatment options for you. Life in recovery is wonderful, and recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey.

When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. We were just talking before the podcast, you know, I refuse to spend a bunch of money on hotel rooms. All I'm going to do is sleep there. And I thought, I was like, well, I'll go to his house. We'll do the podcast there. And you're like, no, too many kids or whatever. I'm like, okay, so here we are. I would have loved to have you at the ranch. So I grew up in Oklahoma, like I was mentioning. And then we moved to a place with a little bit of land.

And so we call it the ranch. And, oh, it would have been perfect, but I know, like, I got a three-year-old. I got a five-year-old bedtime. Just the audio would just be insane. You would just hear, like, weeping and gnashing of teeth in the background. Yeah. Well, I have four kids, 19, 18, 10, and 7. And then our nephew is living with us.

And we have a friend. We have a bunch of land, too. And a friend just moved to our property and is living on an Airstream. So we're building our own commune there. Oh, like a compound going on and uh you know i generally i do the podcast in different locations but most of the time i do it in our garage but it's always it's always a speech with the kids ahead of time okay you guys we're locking the door you can't come i don't care unless you like you know crack your head open that's right you can't come in here during that's right but you know then they inevitably do it's okay. It adds to the ambiance and the flair. Exactly. So anyway,

man, it's, uh, it's great to talk to you and, um, you, you have, uh, so much to offer. So I'm blessed that you are going to be, uh, sharing with my audience. Yeah, man, I'm excited. And I think, I think there's kind of the, the, the things that I'm known for that I kind of talk about a lot, but then there are also some more kind of subtle mindsets, disciplines, things I've learned mainly by failing, to be honest, and being terrible at certain things in my own life and going, man, that really causes me a lot of pain or that causes people that I earnestly, genuinely love and care about a lot of pain, sort of these ugly sides of me. And so I got to go about fixing that.

I got to go about trying to find people who are way smarter than me at that and experiment with that in my own life. So I'm stoked and excited to talk about all sides of things. I'm an open book, dude. Let's, wherever we want to go. Well, you being an open book is a big, is a big part of what I want to talk about because it speaks to authenticity. It speaks to vulnerability. It speaks to issues of what it means to be a man, what qualifies as masculine.

And, you know, there's so many subjects that we can talk about. We can talk about entrepreneurialism. We can talk about parenting and, you know, I want to get into your backstory and all of that. But I think, you know, to kind of kick it off, I'd like to just, you know, touch on the importance of authenticity. I mean, you opened this by saying, you know, I have all these failures, I have all these flaws that I'm working on. And I think it's your transparency in speaking to that, that I find to be very powerful and maybe the most helpful in terms of guiding people through transformation. Yeah, I think, well, thank you for that.

And to me, I just, I wasn't always like this, to be honest. And I think when I wasn't okay with being who I am, both kind of the awesome of me and the awkward of me, you know, just kind of we, I think we all are made up of that of, you know, we all have beautiful things about us and we all have these sort of these ugly sides of us. And, you know, now just being okay with that, I feel that there is, that life is much more stable instead of either I'm pretending like everything's perfect or like I have it all together or that I'm confident and brave and everything, which really no one is, you know, you're brave and confident at a handful of things. I feel like now that I can just

honestly take a look at both sides of that, uh, it's so helpful, but I, but I wasn't always like that. And, you know, that came out of ego and pride and fear and, you know, being so afraid. It's just crazy to think back on my life, which I know we'll get into. But how much time I spent worrying about how other people perceived me, instead of getting about the challenging, difficult work of trying to better myself for myself and my circle of influence, you know, the people I care about, friends, family, that sort of thing. I just spent so much time being concerned about making other people happy or pleasing someone else or trying to be a certain thing to fit in some sort of mold instead of saying, man, just let me take inventory.

Like what's going great? What's going terrible? Be honest about both. Though I'm labeled as a motivational speaker, I think being – I like to say wishful thinking is not a strategy. It's good to be positive. It's great to be optimistic. All of that matters, but it's also not a strategy. It's not enough just to look at everything that's going great, but also take an honest look at what's going bad, what's going poorly, and then come transform, to sort of emerge out of this horrible upbringing that you had that, again, we're going to touch on in a minute. That commitment to transcending that, that created this narrative around you that then kind of puts you on the map and then suddenly you're out speaking on that subject.

And I'm sure everybody wants you to get up on stage and share that story because it is so empowering and inspirational. But along with that comes a pressure to always be that guy. And instantly, you know, once you're up on stage, there is, you know, whether it's spoken or unspoken, looking down at the crowd going, well, they want to hear this story, like this, and I have to be that person, you know, I've already reached this destination. So there isn't room for sharing your flaws in that, like that somehow, you know, becomes dismissive or undercuts the power of the message you're trying to promote, right? And then you carry this dissonance with you, like, you're up there, you give the speech, and then you're like, yeah, but, you know. with you. Like you're up there, you give the speech and then you're like, yeah, but you know.

It's interesting you hit on that. Dude, as I was driving over here, I was literally having this thought, kind of this clear thought about it that I've never, ever had before. It's that, and I've seen this with friends of mine who are musicians or writers or whatever. You get to some place in your life where you've got good support systems and people who know you and love you yet aren't impressed by you. People who call you on your crap and encourage you at what you're great at. It's kind of that ecosystem that we all need to be successful in whether it's being a dad or in some sort of business thing or whatever. Just to be grounded.

Exactly. So you get that, and then typically from that kind of being a stable person, you begin to get opportunities. You begin to get chances to go out and speak or play your music or whatever, which kind of draws you away from that support system, from that grounding system. And if you're not careful, if you stay out there too long doing the thing, writing, giving to other people, and you don't come back enough to that support system, to those people that aren't impressed by you,

by those people that know you for more than just the resume or the website or the demo reel or the cool title you have or that thing that you did, that's a really dangerous spot to be in. And, you know, particularly for me, you know, my mom was 17 when she had me and kind of gave birth to me, took off. So, you know, I was in the foster care system sort of immediately as a kid. And I remember early on just, well, as soon as I could remember, just not trusting any sort of adult, anyone, because I had this experience early on of being left as a baby, though I didn't remember it at the time, obviously. But once I began to think back on it, it was so clear to me that because this initial adult broke my trust, kind of took off, that I assumed every subsequent adult or sort of person who claimed they were there to care for me, to take care of me, that sort of thing would do the same thing.

Of course. I mean, for most people, that's irreparable. Right. for most people, that's irreparable. And as I understand the story, not only were you abandoned as a baby, I mean, she left the hospital without even filling out the paperwork. She was gone. I don't know exactly how that works. Yeah. I can't imagine. I mean, that's so intense. So how do you go from that to being somebody who can then once again rely on another human being? Well, for many years I couldn't.

Or perhaps I could, but I wasn't willing or old enough or mature enough or whatever to kind of deal with those pains, with those struggles, with kind of those ghosts of my past. To then go, okay, it's not that everyone's not worth trusting. past to then go, okay, it's not that everyone's not worth trusting. It's, you know, a handful of people aren't, but most people are, or, you know, take it a step at a time or these sorts of things. And for me, it's, you know, and I certainly don't want to make this a woe is me thing, because it's not the spot I live in now. I don't, interestingly, man, there's so many things we can talk about. But interestingly, I don't find my story particularly inspiring or particularly painful because for me, I knew no different. Like I get that it's kind of a crazy story and I get that it's not the usual upbringing. But to me, there's also this side of me that's like, well, I knew no difference.

It just kind of is what it is. And I got dealt what I got dealt. You know, by the time I was 14, I was in, I think, around a dozen different homes. So I just, I kind of bounced from home to home. It was crazy. I had a notebook, kind of like this, but not a moleskin, obviously, like you have, Rich, but I would. Super high end.

That's right, yeah. Unlike the hotel room. That's right, that's right. I don't mean to bring it up, but I'm just saying, folks, if you saw it, you would flee in terror. No video today. That's right, that's right. No photos, nothing. So I had a notebook like that, and I would enter in the date that I entered a foster home,

and then I would enter in the date I got kicked out, and I would write down the strategy or the approach in which I got kicked out. And I was so emotionally distant from it that it became like a game to me of like, all right, it took me three months to get kicked out of this home. Let me try to beat my high score. See if I can get out of the next home. Yeah. You're a ward of the state. You're bouncing around through all these families. And, you know, what I interpret from that is really kind of an emotional defense mechanism because you were abandoned,

you know, the, the idea of intimacy with another human being is so terrifying that the only, the only way to navigate your life is to repel people before they have the opportunity to, um, be sufficiently emotionally connected with you that they can cause you further pain by abandoning you, which is, you know, what, which is the expectation. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, yeah, man, that's 100% right. And I think my philosophy then wasn't quite that sophisticated, but it was just like, well, you're going to give up on me or hurt me, so let's just get out of the way. And let me be, I'd rather the ball be in my court. I'd rather sort of me push you away, me give up on you or me kind of

be in power and control. Yeah, then you have control. Exactly, versus the opposite, which has now, as an adult, as someone who's done hundreds of hours of counseling and I'm married, I've been married for 10 years, even though I know I look like a child, I got kids. Man, it is fascinating how that pops up and how that never goes away. I just have to be very intentional, very cautious about anticipating it, really trying to look for the lie in it. You know, this fear, this anxiety, this insecurity I'm having with my wife or my kids or this friendship that really matters to me. You know, what do I feel like is going on here and what's really going on? I'm having with my wife or my kids or this friendship that really matters to me. What do I feel like is going on here and what's really going on?

I'm the sort of person that I have to, I don't know if this is right or wrong, but I have to second guess my initial emotional reactions because there are some lies in my past and some ghosts in my past that will sometimes try to sort of creep back up and sabotage things. Yeah, that requires a significant degree of emotional maturity to be able to have that insight to develop that objectivity on your intuition and your instincts. I mean the analogy that I could draw from that is I'm somebody who's been in recovery for a long time. And, you know, I have to figure out when my instincts are reliable and when they're being informed by, you know, a disease that wants me to self-sabotage, you know. And the only way I can do that is by being open, vulnerable, and honest with, you know, my board of advisors, of advisors, people that I trust,

that I keep close, who know what's going on with me, who can give me the honest feedback to say, you might want to think about this or think of it from this direction. These board of advisors, is that something kind of informal that you've pieced together? Is that something kind of as a part of the recovery program that's more kind of like, hey, you should have these number of people and meet this often? It's both. I mean, in recovery, you know, a core principle is you have a sponsor. And then I have like a group of guys, you know, that know me well that I meet with, you know, throughout the week and a phone list of guys that I can call.

Yes. And say, this is coming up for me. You know, what do you think? Because they know me so well, they can provide objective feedback. is coming up for me, you know, what do you think? Because they know me so well, they can provide objective feedback. The informal aspect of it is the kind of board of advisors that I put together for other areas in my life that aren't necessarily related to my emotional sobriety, but, you know, what my career and, you know, my relationship with my wife and things like that, like people that have gone through things that I'm going through that have experience,

because it's not really about advice. It's about sharing experience, you know, because that's what I that's what I value. And I think it's, you know, it goes to mentorship, which is a big thing that you talk about a lot. And it's been such a huge part of what you've received and what you give back. And I think it's crucial for anybody and everybody. Well, I love what you're doing there, because I think there's this whole myth out there of kind of the super mentor, meaning like, you know, this one guy, you can find like one guy or one lady that's like amazing at everything. And, you know, he or she can teach you every aspect of your life. But, you know, I practice a very similar thing in my life where I've got a group of guys that

hold me accountable on the good, the bad, the ugly, all of that. They're not impressed by me. They know the good of me. They know the bad of me. They know my insecurities and what I'll do if I'm sort of left to myself. But then also I have very specific kind of mentors of like this guy's been amazing as a father and as a husband, and his kids are grown and respect him and like him. So, man, I can learn so much from him.

Right. And maybe his career has nothing to do with what you do. Oh, yeah. And he's not the person you call for that, but you call for, how do I be a better dad? Yeah. I think that super mentor thing, you got to be careful because it tends to be, I think, a bit of a shiny object. You know, someone tends to be like someone kind of famous or really well-known or whatever, which can be kind of more of an ego-driven thing. Like I would like to be on the radar or I would like them to know what I'm up to versus can I really learn about being a father from that person?

Right. Yeah, like I'm going to get Gary Vee to be my mentor. Well, that guy's bandwidth is so limited. Yeah, he's amazing at what he does, but you might be better off with somebody who isn't well-known, who has copious experience but is more willing to share and is more willing to invest in you. Right.

It's like how much of this person's attention are you really, do you really expect to get or, or is fair to that person? And it wouldn't give you what you, what you're daydreaming of would anyway. You know, I mean, Gary's best advice on his, on kind of that wheelhouse is, is in a book or a podcast or something and you can get it there. And that's, it's never information. It's always implementation. Josh, that would require work. Well, we're not here to condone that, my goodness.

But I think it's never information. It's always implementation. Almost none of us don't know what we need to do or what the sacrifices we need to make or whatever. It's, like you said, having someone in your life who can say, you know, you're on the right track, but I think, you know, you're self-sabotaging here, or you're doubting yourself here, or, okay, you say you have this kind of big goal. Let's break it up into baby steps together, and I'm going to hold you accountable, not on the end result, the shiny thing, but what you need to do next week in order to make that, you know, big dream happen in two years, three years or whatever.

Right. And I speak a lot on goal setting and the like. And the most important thing, and I know you share this idea, is what are you doing right now and what's the next thing to do? in the grand goal, but that becomes all too often paralyzing for people or not accessible enough where they're willing to kind of lay out, you know, the brick by brick approach. We get caught up in, you know, the destination as opposed to the very unsexy daily rigor that's involved. And really that's the only thing that's important is what you're doing next. Yeah, with young people I kind of deem it as talking about what I call step esteem, meaning I kind of revolt against this idea of self-esteem because of the preconceived ideas it conjures up, which means it's something that's given to you at birth. If you're tall, dark, and handsome and athletic and articulate and brave and all of these things that 90% of us oftentimes don't feel like we are. But I like to think of it as step esteem, meaning each step you take towards something that's good for you, yet that intimidates you, you gain an esteem, not because it's something that's given,

but rather it's something that's earned by facing something that scares the crap out of you. And even if you fail, your mind begins to reprogram itself instead of, oh, I'm such a stupid loser that can't do anything to, huh, okay, that wasn't terrible. You know, maybe it was a minor success or a minor failure, but you go, maybe I'm capable of far more than I sometimes give myself credit for. So I think it's that, I like to think of it as step esteem. I like the young people I work with to think of it as step esteem because it's not something your parents are going to give you or your teachers or that you're born with. Even if you're naturally bright or talented or athletic

or whatever, you've got to step out and go get it. You got to put that one foot in front of the other and go out and grab that esteem because it's earned through esteemable acts. Yeah, it's directly proportionate to the extent to which you are willing to endure some temporary discomfort. And I call it self-esteem earned through performing esteemable acts. There you go. It's like, yeah. And I think it brings up something that's going on right now that I see because I'm as a parent, we've kind of stepped into this culture and I don't know who decided this was a good idea, but suddenly, you

know, everybody's a winner, you know, everybody gets a participation medal and, you know, we're so worried about self-esteem that we edit ourselves and we're fearful of, you know, awarding the victor for the sake of, you know, potentially damaging the person who was the runner up. And I don't really think that that is serving us very well. So I'm interested in, you know, to the extent that you work with kids and are really connected to what's going on right now, what you see. Yeah, I agree. I think that's a very troubling trend. I think the idea that you can sort of protect your child from those sorts of social issues, you know, whether it be kind of trying to, you know, private school them away from kids that are mean.

That's not possible. From harboring them away from realizing whether or not they were the best at something, which to me it's kind of grading and looking at the wrong thing. I spoke at Harvard a couple years ago, and the thing I didn't expect, I mean I was obviously very intimidated going into that gig. And the thing I didn't expect afterwards were the conversations with kid after kid who's like, I'll be honest with you, man, I feel lost here because I went from being like the smartest kid at my high school to now every kid is the freaking smartest kid here, you know, and was that kid. freaking smartest kid here, you know, and was that kid. So, you know, sometimes that, you know, you're, you're, you know, the most smart, or you're the most talented, or the most,

most athletic can be dependent upon who's around you, versus what kind of effort are you putting forth. And to me, I much rather applaud that effort, I much rather applaud, you know, did you give your best? Did you put your all into this? What kind of preparation did you put into this? How did you do in the moment? And indeed not protect them from, you know, someone being first place and someone being 10th place or whatever, because to a certain degree, that's how the world works. And I think that's part of the beautiful, terrifying responsibility we have as parents is, you know, I got 18 years or whatever to try to, while they're in the comfort of my home, prepare them for what it's going to be like out there. So if while they're in here, they've never experienced difficulty or having to clean up their own messes or taking extraordinary personal responsibility for things that they do, both good and bad, or being ranked or held accountable or judged based on their performance, then what happens when I'm not there? And then they're presented with that. Do they melt down? Do they jump into something destructive to try to deal with that? What happens then?

I just think that's a very challenging situation. Yeah, and if they lack the experience with having weathered that, when the stakes are lower, what's going to happen when they're out in the world and the stakes are, you know, significantly higher. I mean, what do you see as some of the most common mistakes that most parents make when they're trying to, you know, child rear or even just, you know, communicate effectively with, you know, young teens, young teenage kids. Yeah. So I'm a dad. I got a three and five-year-old, and I'm certainly not an expert in that category. That's something I'm, you know, struggling with and having great days and terrible days, you know, myself. I literally had like my worst, well, one of my worst moments as a father thus far the other day. One of the things I try to do, even with my young kids, is put them in

situations of things that will stretch them. So instead of watering things down, like I want them to have to do it. I want, you know, I want them to buckle the car seat if they're age appropriate. I'm not going to do it for you. We'll wait. You got it. You're going to do it. So that's kind of my MO, right? So my son, he's five. He's insanely cute.

He's very tenderhearted. We're talking about the dog, and the dog's like 12 years old. And I just blurt this out. I'm like, you know one day buddy's gonna die and my wife's head just like snaps and like obviously it's true but it's like oh and then you ever seen shrek you remember the cat in shrek with like the eyes that that yeah they get huge oh my gosh yeah that became my son and he's just like weeping. What does that mean, and what happens? And Sarah was just kind of like, you know, under a breath, just completely laughing at me.

So that side I don't so much have figured out. So despite being a teen expert, you're still a fallible human being. Right, not so much a kid expert. Not so much a kid expert. So, you know, the thing that I, and I've been working with teenagers and parents for the past 12 years, and there are a few trends that I see. And let me start off by saying this. I think to put it very simply, to parent a teen well, you need to do two things, consistent encouragement and consistent consequences. At the end of the day, if you can do both of those things consistently, your kid's going to be fine. Not perfect, not without issue,

not without, you know, fault or flaw or whatever. They're still going to be human. But for the most part, you will have an independent, responsible, caring young person on your hands at the end of that. And with most parents that I see that I've worked with, they tend to err on being really, really good at one or the other, but not so much both. So, you know, sometimes we can be in the media and such very harsh on parents that sort of coddle their kids. And we can say, oh, you're raising entitled kids and don't you realize what you're doing? But that so often comes from a good place of like they want to be encouraging and maybe they weren't encouraged as a child. And it was like a very sort of insanely strict like home with all tough and no tender.

And so they're like, well, I'm not going to make that mistake again. Right, they're compensating in the other direction. Yeah. And so, you know, there has to be that encouragement, but there also has to be consistent consequences. And the consequences side can sometimes be the thing that's tricky because to really do it well, the consequences need to be premeditated, predetermined. The entire family needs to be on the same page, not at the time of war, but the time before war. Because once you're in the war, you're reactive and you're impulsive and emotional, and suddenly you're saying things that you didn't

sort of plan out ahead of time and that creates inconsistencies. Right. You flip in or you flip out, you know, depending on your personality type. Like you either snap and the punishment is too harsh or you say things, you look back at it and go, oh, that was so stupid. I wish I wouldn't have said that. That could cause some kind of pain or whatever. Or you flip in because, you know, you're not sure what to do. You're exhausted from your day, the stuff going on in your own life. You don't have a game plan ahead of time. So you just flip in and you go, yeah, it's not a big deal or it's not something I really need to worry about. And maybe in the beginning,

it's not. But that left to itself could eventually grow into some sort of beast. And it's tough, man, because when your kid becomes a teenager, you have folks with 15 years of experience on the planet guiding people that have a similar amount of time on the planet. And while a kid is trying to become a teen and get that independence, they begin to push away the parent. And the way I always think about this is kind of like a roller coaster, meaning, you know, when you get in the roller coaster seat, they put like the lap bar down in your lap. And if you're like me, you kind of grab that bar and like wiggle the crap out of it. See if it's actually locked. Yeah. I'm just, I'm a little OCD in general, but also like, all right, I want to make sure like, you know, this is safe and this is secure. And I wiggle it and I push it and I prod it, not hoping it will give, leading to my inevitable death.

But I push it and I prod it and I test it, hoping it will hold. And kids who are going into the teen years are going to do the exact same thing to you. are going to do the exact same thing to you. And they're not pushing and prodding and testing, hoping that you will give, but rather hoping that you will hold, you know, hoping that at this time in their life when so many things are uncertain and so many things are unsure, that you're certain and that you're sure. Yeah, that's interesting. I think it requires some discernment because as the parent, when you're on the receiving end of that, you can interpret it as something different as rebellion or whatever, when it's really just a testing of the waters on behalf of the kid to see, hey, are you holding up this wall for me? And it's so hard not to take it personal.

Right. I mean, there's a woman that I run with, I won't say her name, but man, she's going through that right now. And she could not be a better mother. I mean, none of us are perfect as parents, but she could not be coming from a more earnest, genuine, caring place. She really wants the best for a kid, as 98% of parents do. But man, when her kid is pushing and her kid is throwing daggers, like she's taking them and she's taking them to heart and she's taking them personal

and you know, that whole flip in, flip out, like her kid is flipping out because of this uncertainty and these boundaries and all these sorts of things and it's so hard not to take that personal. It's so hard not to take those things that they'll flippantly say to you, those very things we flippantly said to people who did nothing more than tried to care for us

and love us when we were kids. But it's so freaking hard not to take those things to heart and say, oh, you know, I am a terrible parent, or I've never felt understood, or you guys don't care about, it's not, it's so hard not to, not to take that bait. Yeah. When I, uh, I, I posted on Twitter yesterday that I was going to be sitting down with you and I said, you know, what do you, you know, what do you want me to talk about? What do you want to know? And a kind of consistent response that I got was how do I, uh, how do I communicate and connect with my 13-year-old who is emotionally withdrawing from me? I think it's particularly specific to girls.

It seems to happen when they turn 13 and suddenly the door in the bedroom shuts. And the communication goes on lockdown and there's a withdrawal. I haven't – I'm lucky. Our two older ones are boys. They never went through that. We, you know, we have a great, very communicative relationship. So I don't have any personal experience with that, but I have a daughter who's 10 and everyone says, oh, wait till there's 13. And my wife says, you know, Mathis was such a hellion when she was young. She already went through that. And I'm like, well, we'll see. I don't know. But I know that that is something that

causes a lot of trauma for a lot of parents and probably for the kid too. Like how do you navigate that period of time when the hormones kick in and suddenly the child becomes a completely different human being that becomes hard to reach? Yeah, it's frustrating because what used to work now when they're a teen sometimes doesn't work. So there are a few very practical things I would say. Number one is focus on asking questions instead of lecturing. This is huge because, you know, as a parent, it's natural to want to lecture because you want, you feel like you have this valuable piece of information that could help save this kid some headache or whatever. So you want to sort of implant it in their head. And so naturally, you just kind of lecture. It's like, all right, I got this smart thing I figured out through trial and error or

whatever. And I want to implant this in your head. So I'm just going to kind of lecture it at you. But when you lecture, the kid tunes you out. That's all you get. When you lecture, it leads to them tuning you out. So then you become the boy who cried wolf. You've got this wonderful, important, perhaps life-saving information, but nobody's listening. So rather, you've got to really focus on asking questions. So lecturing leads to them tuning you out.

Questioning leads to critical thinking, meaning take that kind of lecture you would want to give, like, I can't believe you did that. That was so foolish or whatever, which, again, natural to feel that way. And just pose it as a question. What went on there? What did you learn? Would you do that again? These sorts of things. And in the beginning, here's the thing. You might not like their response. Well, aren't the responses often very truncated? Like, how are you doing?

Fine. What's wrong? Nothing. Can we talk? I don't care. You get that sort of shutdown reply. We'll get to that because that can sometimes be timing, environment, kind of more subtle things like that. But in the beginning, the whole idea of this questioning is twofold. Number one,

to train critical thinking, not because you already know what the smart thing is to do about blank. They need to come to the place where they believe the smart thing to do about blank. They need to come to the place where they believe the smart thing to do about blank is a similar thing. Because lecturing, again, like when your kid is a kid, there's a lot of control. You know, you control where they go because you're driving them there. You control what they're eating because you're preparing it or with them. You're controlling who they're with for the most part. When the kid is a teen, the name of the game is influence, which means, you know, questioning and training and this and that, but you're not always there, which is why the questioning is so important. It's not just kind of some kind of clever little

thing a guy like me says on a podcast, there's really a method to the madness because that question, well, first of all, when you ask them a question about where they lie on a particular issue, and pop culture is actually a great thing to use to your advantage. Like let's say some teen celebrity's doing something stupid in the media. This is a great way to find out where your kid lies on an issue without it feeling like you're directly attacking them. You know, so it's not like, oh, Rich, something you did wrong or something I'm worried about with you. It's like, oh, do you see what these celebrities and like, they're like nude photos getting hacked? Like, isn't that crazy? Like, what's going on with that?

You know, or who's at fault here? Is it the celebrity? Because they shouldn't have done it. that. Who's at fault here? Is it the celebrity because they shouldn't have done it and that's stupid? Is it the hackers because everyone deserves to have their own privacy or whatever? So when you ask them something, you're going to find out immediately where they lie on the issue, not where you do, but where they do. So they might say something absolutely foolish and immature and just where you're like wanting to pull your hair out because the thinking is so flawed. Okay, you make a note of that. It doesn't mean now you attack them. Like, what are you thinking?

That's stupid. Like, you better not be taking nude photos. Boy, I will beat you. You know, it's not like that. that. Because now you go, okay, hmm, man, their line of thinking in regards to how they're going to be, you know, interacting on Facebook or Instagram or whatever, I need to be concerned. I have some training to do here. Because where they lie on the issue, you know, is an area in which I'm concerned about. And then secondly, as I said, it just, it trains them to think critically so that when they're out there at a party and they can get in a car with someone who's been drinking, you know,

you're not there. Right. So that they can think critically independent of you. And in that moment, that really matters, make a wise decision. Yeah, that's amazing advice. I mean, it's more about preparing them or training them to think than it is about the specific issue. And it goes back to self-esteem. Like if you value yourself, then you're going to make a decision that is going to, you know, sort of put yourself in a better position than a self-sabotaging decision. Yeah. Think of yourself as a coach and think about what a good coach does. Coach prepares the athletes before the game. Let's run drills. Let's go through scenarios. What's that? You're being bullied at school emotionally. Some kids being jerked to you verbally. Let's go through that. Let's talk about how you're currently responding. Do you think that kind of perpetuates the situation? Do you think they're getting a rise out of that? Like they like to see you snap or cry or yell or whatever. Like, let's go through the different scenarios you're going to be in, just like a coach does before the game. Let's

run the drills. Let's go through the stuff. Great job here. You know, watch that. That's, there's the thing that's going to get you. After the game, the coach, great job on this. Let's work on this. Let's review. Here's what went well. Here's what didn't. But during the game, it's all on them. We can't step on the court.

That's not how it works. And I think that's really the game when we talk about influence versus control. That's what it looks like to have a team is that you're not out there on the court. You're not out there on the field. You don't, sadly, have control, but you have influence, which means even if you can't control in that moment because you're not there or they're at school or they're out with friends or they're out God knows where, you do have that influence before and after to try to train them to execute appropriately. And I think a big aspect of that is creating a safe space where they feel comfortable keeping the channels of communication open. Because especially once they get into high

school, like you want your kid to come home and say, you know, Johnny, you know, was, wanted me to get in the car and he was, he was drunk and I decided not to, but to even have that conversation, they have to feel safe to share that without, you know, being shamed or, or being disciplined. You know what I mean? Like, like it has to be open enough. And I think that that's such a crucial aspect of it. Like for your kid to feel comfortable letting the, letting the parent know what's actually happening at school. Right. Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, and there are little things that we were kind of talking about timing and such, uh, you know, it's, it's very natural when kid, you know, first gets home or maybe you, you know, maybe they're, they don't have a car car so you're picking them up from school, it's real easy right there

to kind of bombard them like how was your day? What's going on? How'd that thing go? Blah, blah, blah. I mean, just think about yourself at the end of a long, exhausting day. You probably just want some time to decompress. You probably just want some time to chill out. So it doesn't

have to all be done right then and right there uh that can again not every single time but that can you know save you from getting kind of those those one word responses which can sometimes just come from an earnest place of like i'm exhausted like chill out give me some room to breathe here i just got got done with high school and that whole madhouse. Give me some time to breathe. Another thing can be when it's not directly after school. It's interesting with teen boys and teen girls. Think about it.

When teen girls have a good relationship, like typically, stereotypically. They're talking. They're chatting. This is kind of the modality of teen girls. It is, you know, chit-chat, chit-chat, chit-chat. And so it's face-to-face. But typically when two girls are in conflict with each other, it's gossiping. It's drama.

It's talking behind their back. So now instead of face-to-face, it's back-to-back. Whereas guys are the opposite. Guys tend to bond over, like, let's go for a bike ride or let's go for a run together. Let's go watch a movie. Let's do something side-by-side. But if we're in conflict, like we're in each other's face. Right.

And we're up in each other's face and yelling and this and that. So guys, that conflict tends to be interpreted face-to-face. Just think about that. And then guys get over it pretty quickly. Right, right. But think about that, whether you have like a teen girl or a teen son, is that the way in which they interpret either kind of a casual conversation versus conflict. So with your teen son, windshield time, meaning when you're driving kind of side by side, that's a great opportunity to have some sort of conversation because you're not looking face to face, so it doesn't feel as confrontational. If they're in the car, you kind of have them where you want them. Unless the conversation gets really dicey, it's not like they're going to open up the door and roll out of the car on the highway.

So that can be something that you can work and use to your advantage. And then similarly with a daughter, she's going to interpret sort of that respectful, kind conversation more of like face-to-face. Let's sit down. Let's get away from the house or whatever. Let's sit down and have some quality time together. Interesting. When you look at the educational system, you've spoken to heaps of high school students all over the country. I think you probably have a pretty good grip on what goes on in most high schools. What is endemically wrong with the system? What would you change? Where are we missing an opportunity to improve the educational system? Because I look at it and I see so many things broken and antiquated.

That's a great question. I certainly don't have any expert opinion on it. I don't claim to be an expert in education. I more so focus on teen, teen behavior, sort of that psychological, emotional side of it. But, you know, I certainly have opinions. And I think, you know, one thing that I see is just how, how just sort of factory system the entire, you know, school system is meaning, you know, it's, it's so much sitting, and it's so much one modality and one method of learning, that tends to lead to sort of one modality and one

method of employment or sort of that life after high school or life after college. What is that going to look like? And so what's frustrating is that you get kids who don't perform naturally at that particular style of learning, and then those kids think that they're not particularly bright or talented or whatever. And the truth is, no, you're just not particularly bright or talented at that style of learning. So, you know, how can we in a system that's so enormous, and I don't claim to know the answer to this, but how can we in a system that's so enormous serve so many kids without those kids becoming a number? Without it's like, all right, here's kind of this best practice way of learning. Here's kind of the best thing we can come up with to serve this enormous

swath of people. But now, you know, every single student is under that. And for me, the kids that I see that really thrive are the kids that have that extracurricular activity that kind of feed into the way in which they learn the stuff they just naturally love to nerd out about and are fascinated by, whether that be theater or public speaking or sports or student government or something. Why is it that those kids tend to thrive, tend to do better academically, tend to have less behavior problems, tend to come to school and look forward to it, it's because they have that outlet. It's because, all right, if even these other six, seven hours of the day are terrible, at least I know I have

this thing after school or this last hour of school that I have to look forward to where I feel like it gets me and I get it and it just clicks. Yeah, they have something that they're passionate about that is interesting to them and they can use that as a lens through which to, you know, learn a variety of skills which will benefit them in all aspects of life and school. I mean, in my personal situation, you know, we're homeschooling our kids, and it wasn't something that I thought that we were going to be doing. It was really kind of motivated

out of our 10-year-old daughter and her experience. We had her in a bunch of different schools, and we could just see the square peg trying to get jammed into the round hole, and we came to the conclusion that really the best way to serve her was by pulling her out of the system and trying to find a new way. And I don't profess to have the answer, and it's an evolving experiment, and it's very much an unschooling method right now.

But she's found something that she's super passionate about, which is fashion design. And so we're supporting that with a mentor and through sort of curriculum-based learning that revolves around that passion pursuit. So it's a platform through which she can learn a variety of disciplines. And what we've noticed is that it's created a lot of self-momentum because she's inspired, right? So she's trying to solve this problem related to what she's interested in. And that requires that she's going to have to write and learn math and do all these sorts of things. And so she's motivated to learn these things because it's applicable to what she cares about. Exactly. You know, and I think that in this sort of warehouse

system that gets lost, you know, we, we don't, we don't give in this sort of applies to maybe kind of the helicopter parenting that you see a lot of, you know, what happened to giving kids space to just breathe and figure out who they are, you know, sort of in the summertime, like, hey, they run out the back door and they're riding bikes around the neighborhood and they're just with their friends and they're just, you know, they're outdoors and they have time to be with themselves and their friends and they develop a relationship with themselves that informs the decisions they're going to make later in life. And now we're so programmed that we've lost that space.

And technology is to blame for that as well, and video games and all those sorts of things that have monopolized every waking minute of every day that we don't – I think we need to reprioritize somehow. I don't know that I have a solution as to how to do that, but, you know, that's just my observation. But you have to experiment, and, you know, like you said, you know, we don't claim to have all the answers with this homeschooling thing, but we're giving it a try. I think you have to experiment. I think you have to be intentional. You know, it's not just going to happen. you know it's it's it's not just going to happen you know i mean anything good in life is not just going to magically appear magically going to happen you're going to have to try something

then you're going to take the temperature of it and say all right these aspects are working this not so much we got to be careful with that or get some help there or some support there or whatever and just and just sort of wash and repeat. But I've done a lot of work privately. And then for a while, I had a TV show that was airing where I was working with these extremely at-risk young people. I mean, I'm talking about kids who had been addicted to heroin since they were 12, 11 years old and had been on it for many, many years. And it was fascinating to work with these kids and then follow up with them a year later, two years later, three years later, five years later.

And ultimately, you know, in the beginning, it's about, you know, intervening and getting them help, getting them very serious, intentional day in, day out, hour in, hour out help. But then once that aspect was kind of handled, it was, you know, finding out what is their dream? What is that thing? What's that thing they're going to nerd out about, be excited about? What's that thing that could be more compelling to that young lady than heroin? What's that new drug going to be? What's that new high? What's that new fascination? What is that? Because it's not just enough to teach kids what to say no to,

you got to teach them what to say yes to. And if you're saying yes to things, whether you're a kid or an adult, that matter and that are meaningful and this and that, you will naturally, as a byproduct of that, protect yourself from things that seek to sabotage that or seek to hurt that or seek to harm that. But I think it not only starts with here are the things not to do, but you've got to go find your yes. What is that thing that you are going to do and be excited about? Right. And how are you going to create a foundation that is going to be

sustainable? So it's not like, you know, the biggest loser where they lose a ton of weight, and then a year later, they're, you know, overweight again. You know, how do you create sustainable, long lasting, permanent, you know, or semi-permanent habits that will serve this person and create a brand new, forge a new trajectory for them. And the cool news is, and I'm not just trying to be positive, it's that is genuinely possible for anybody. Yeah, I'm going to say we're talking about kids, but this is, these are, this applies to anyone.

I'm not, I'm talking about all of us. I mean, truly, if there is something that matters to you, some different kind of life. Right now, there's someone who finds himself in a situation where they're frustrated with their job or frustrated with their life or some aspect of their life. with their job or frustrated with their life or some aspect of their life. And I've been there, and I know how dark and discouraging and helpless and alone that can feel. But it is genuinely possible to come out of that. Not immediately, not quickly, not overnight success, myth style. but if you can be willing to raise your hand and get help, if you can be willing to turn around and face those demons for a period of time, and then if you can put together some sort of intentional plan for your life that's going to

move you away from those things and intentionally towards things that you care about, whatever that is doesn't matter. You know, you'll look back and you'll have a life that matters and that is meaningful and that you're proud of. But it's not, you know, it takes so much more than just the desire to. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Thoreau famously said, the mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation. And, Men lead lives of quiet desperation. And I think it's more true than ever now, men and women, but particularly men. I think in my experience, I've witnessed just an emasculating effect of people in jobs that they don't like. They've sort of been funneled into that maybe they don't even feel like they consciously chose this life path that they're on.

And it's very kind of try to go, well, you have to find your passion and live that. And a lot of people are so disconnected that they're not even sure what that is or the process of even beginning to grapple with that idea, let alone make changes in their life. When we're in a place that we don't want to be, there's almost like this goal pornography that exists where it's like, oh, if I could have this job or do this thing or earn this amount of money or accomplish this thing. And we just get so fixated on that. And we just love to sit around and dream about it. And we love to look up stuff on the internet about it. And we love to sit around and talk to people about it. But but that isn't your next step. You know where you are and that shiny thing. There are probably 38 steps between that. that kind of pot of gold at the end of the rainbow or whatever can maybe keep you going when things inevitably get difficult, challenging, frustrating, harder than you expected, et cetera.

To me, the only thing that practically matters is what are my exact next three steps? Not one through 28, but what are the exact three next steps? And then, and I think this is subtle but important, don't go and get training and accountability around the end goal. I think that's an earnest mistake I see a lot of people making. Here's this thing I want, so I'm going to go get training and accountability to that. Rather, So I'm going to go get training and accountability to that. Rather, when you can or get some help to define those next three steps, get training and accountability exclusively and only around those three things. I would take it one step further even and say that you can't even necessarily trust that your goal or this thing that you've sort of put on a pedestal as the thing that you think is going to fix you. It's really

the right thing for you to even be chasing unless you've invested enough in the interior work required to be in that place where your instincts are reliable, which is kind of what we started the podcast talking about. Like, you know, you have a certain level of emotional maturity because of what you've endured and the choices that you've made in your life. And I think that that's mandatory before we even get to the discussion about what it is that you're chasing. Yeah. You know, so a perfect example is, and I've used this before, but somebody says, I want to run a marathon or I want to do an Ironman. Well, it's like, well, why do you want to do that? What's going on in your life that suddenly that's important? Let's look at that first and figure out what's going on internally with you,

what's going on emotionally with you, what's going on mentally, spiritually, all of these things and do an inventory of that. We'll assess the Iron Man goal later. Maybe there's a different goal that you're not aware of that would be more appropriate. But until we know what's going on over here first, we're not sure. I don't disagree with you. I think I have a complementary viewpoint to this. I mean I also – well, and the way in which I agree with you is this. If someone wants to do a marathon thinking it's going to make them happy or change their life forever, it's not.

It'll change your life for a day, and you'll be like, that was amazing. I can't believe I did that. Why are my nipples bleeding? You know, that kind of thing. But you're going to wake up the next day and be the exact same person. But you've performed an assignable act, which will lead to self-esteem, arguably. You know, it has – I'm not saying that these things don't have value. I'm just saying, when you're forecasting far into the future, it's sort of like you set this trajectory to go to the

moon, right? And if you're one degree off, you're going to miss the moon by thousands of miles, right? So what trajectory are we embarking on today that's going to take you in the best direction for you? And I love that idea of being brutally honest about why do I really want to do this? Not why would I tell people, you know, not why would I tell someone if they asked me, you know, particularly someone I didn't really, really know, but why genuinely, selfishly? What's the real motive there? Because I think that's the thing you really got to check. Because if it's, you know, you're banking on it to be this thing. Like if you're banking on a job, any job, even a job that sounds amazing.

And I love my job. It doesn't make me a better person. There's actually things about my job that can make me a worse person. But it doesn't make me a better person. Right. There's actually things about my job that can make me a worse person. But it doesn't make me a better person. It doesn't forever sustain some sort of happiness or joy or whatever. I'm appreciative and I'm grateful and all of that. But it doesn't, you know, that thing isn't going to give you what you think it is. So you're still going to show up there that same person that you are or that you were or that you're working towards. I do think – I was mentioning to you I've ran I think eight or nine marathons now.

I got into it because there was this guy who I wanted to be sort of a career mentor to me. And I met him through my wife. My wife's a Pilates instructor and was like training him because he's a runner. So he's like trying to do the Pilates thing so he doesn't throw out his hip or whatever. And I was like, man, this is a cool dude. He's wise, no ego, confident, but he's accomplished a lot of stuff. I could learn from this guy. So I was like, hey, I want to pick him. Better start running. Right. Oh, yeah, that's what he's like.

He's like, oh, I gave a real nice overture to him like, hey, here's who I am, and I would love to pick your brain, and I'll be respectful of your time, and blah, blah, blah. He's like, yeah, you can pick my brain. Just show up here at 5 30 AM. What? What do you know? So the first litmus test. Exactly. Yeah. So he, uh, wrote me into running and I've just been fascinating, fascinated rather how, you know, sort of that marathon running that threshold training, you know, sort of that marathon running, that threshold training, how much that has translated positively into other areas of my life, just realizing,

you know, if you haven't ever run a marathon, you can't, probably can't run one tomorrow. But you could, anyone, I think, I'm not a professional, but anyone could in about a year. Anyone could in about nine months with a plan and probably a community of people so you don't hit the snooze button, so you show up. Like intentionality and leading into it. And then eventually, yeah, you can do because I, from time to time, I mean, almost consistently every week, find myself in a situation where I feel uncomfortable, where I feel like I can't go any further. Like I don't have any more answers. I don't have any more insights. I'm not sure how to deal with this. My maturity isn't to that degree in which I need it to be

to deal with this in the way I've seen other people deal with it. But then having something anchored in my past of like, all right, this is, you know, kind of like that marathon. What do you do? You push past, you get answers, there's a plan, there's training. That's been amazing and something, you know, for my personal circle of friends, I'm like, this whole like pushing your thresholds physically, you'll just be amazed at what it does for your mental state. Yeah. There's no question about it.

Especially when I'm struggling with something in the real world, whether it's emotional or financial or relationship-oriented career or what have you, and I feel like I'm stuck and I can't see my way through it, it's like, let's go for a run. It's amazing the extent to which I solve my problems out on a run. And I think a lot of that goes back to the principles of meditation because it gets you into a place of the present, the now, of no-mindedness, where that place is where you can start to receive the messages that you need. It creates space, right? It's weird because if you would have told me this before I started running, I would think, oh, you're a nice guy, but I kind of don't believe you. But now I know, like, yeah, it's true. You're frustrated or upset or not thinking clearly.

And you're right. You go for a run or bike ride, you know, thinking clearly. And you're right. You go for a run or bike ride, whatever that thing is for you. And inevitably somehow you get clarity or you go, maybe not clarity, but clarity on I'm overreacting or this isn't as big of a deal as I'm making it out to be or I'm just getting wound up unnecessarily about something. Or what's your next best move in whatever it is you're trying to achieve in some other area of your life. My only problem with it is I'll have those epiphanies and then it's not like I have a pen and paper

and I write them down. Sometimes I'll pull my phone out and I'll make a voice memo or something like that because I'm afraid I'm gonna forget. And many times I have forgotten. But I also think it's a great, very tactile, tangible example of this principle that we were talking about at the outset, which is what's your next best move? Like you can run a marathon if, you know, you can find plans on the internet. There's a million of them. And it's about what

are you doing today? So people say to me all the time, like, I can't believe that you did these crazy ultra races. Like, how do you do that? And it's sort of like putting the frog in, in, in the lukewarm warm water and turning the heat up gradually. Like you don't notice it because you're just building brick by brick day by day. So, you know, I only look at what is the workout that I have to do today, you know? And I, if I start thinking about what I have to do tomorrow or that huge ride I got to do on Saturday, you know, I'll just get freaked out. You know, I just like, I just, right now I had to get through this one workout. That's all I have to do. Yeah. And I get through it and then, you know, I worry about the rest tomorrow and it's the same in recovery. Like all I have to do today is not drink or use. That's it. When my pillow

hits the, you know, when my head hits the pillow tonight, that's all I have to worry about. I see this pattern a lot in my work as a mentor. For the last few years, I've been mentoring and training other people who want to speak to young people. And it's been an absolute joy. I love it. It's one of the things that's just so fascinating and fun and challenging and a joy to me. But there's this interesting pattern that I see. And again, no fault of their own, but folks who are interested in speaking to kids, they want the career I have now, not the career I had 10 years ago. You know, they want to be on the cool stage with a couple thousand kids and it's going well and the

kids are laughing and responding and these sorts of things. Not like 10 years ago where I'm giving some convoluted speech about coleslaw, swear to God, true story, to like eight people and no one cares and no one wants to hire me and these sorts of things. And I think it's so helpful not to just look at someone who inspires you, not just their end result, but their first step. Because the end results can be like inspiring long term, you know, like someone like you, it's like, oh, look what he's doing now. That's cool. And that's awesome. That's something I could strive towards eventually. But when you look at any mentor or hero in your minds, their first step, it's actually a could strive towards eventually. But when you look at any mentor or hero in your mind's first step, it's actually a much better on-ramp because you'll find doubt and failure,

and they weren't that good and they weren't that impressive and they weren't that confident nor competent at that point yet, but they simply got going, fine-tuned, fine-tuned, fine-tuned, fine-tuned. And now, for some reason, they're someone whose work inspires you, whether that be something like what we do or a writer or a parent or whatever. I think our culture is so fixated on these beautiful media stories of this kind of false overnight success. Right. And it's just not true. It's like it takes 10 years to become an overnight success. And it's just not true. It's like it

takes 10 years to become an overnight success. Yeah. I talk about that all the time. It's such a fallacy. But media loves that narrative and it's an easy sell and that's what gets clicks and page views and all that kind of stuff. And they got eight minutes to tell a story, so I get it. Right. But it's never true, pick any example and I'll show you the failures and the long road that led up to it. It's a super important point. And again, I'm trying to do an analogy to recovery again. It's this hotel room. It's conjuring up old images. Exactly. But, you know, they often say in the rooms like, you know, somebody who's brand new, you know, is coming in. They you know, they're they're on day one of sobriety and and they're scared and they don't know where to turn. The person they're going to relate to is the guy who's got four days or seven days of sobriety, not the speaker up at the podium. He's got 40 years. It's like that's just I can't even fathom that. I can't relate to that. I can't connect to that. But the guy who's got

four days, like, how did you do that? Like, that's the guy I want to know. And so again, it goes back to this idea of choosing these mentors who are so far down the line, who are inspiring and have done amazing things, but maybe the better mentor is the guy who's just four steps ahead of you. How did you get to that point? Like, let's just focus on that. I think you need both. I think you need like the rock star that's like, whoa, that's going to push what I think is possible. That's going to push what I think success looks like. It's going to cause me to dream bigger, want to do more.

But also I need like, here's like my next step and my next chapter. And this is what it looks like for me for a certain period of time. Yeah. Let's go back to your story a little bit because we just touched on it, but we didn't really get through it. So you're a ward of the state, you're in all these foster homes, but eventually you end up in the care of some pretty sort of astounding sounding parents that really change everything for you, the Wiedemeyers. And that's

really kind of the first, what it sounds like to me, at least as the narrative goes, that's what really changed everything for you. Yeah. And prior to that, there were, you know, like I said, probably a dozen different foster homes. I would try to get kicked out of them as soon as possible. Most of the homes were great. You know, the foster parents were well-meaning. I was just so hell-bent on pushing them away, on getting kicked out, certainly to no fault of their own. You know, I think foster parents can get a bad rap because of the, you know, couple news stories, again, that are sort of scandalous and therefore get play. therefore get play. But most of the foster parents I've ever met and most of the foster parents I ever lived with who understandably said, yeah, we're going to need to find a different home for this kid. Man, they were great, well-intended. I did have a couple homes that were abusive. I was raped as an eight-year-old boy, which was such a, to look back, it was like a grenade in my heart, that moment.

And even more than that moment, the secrecy of that moment for so many years, just never talking about it, never wanting to discuss it with a counselor, never wanting to bring it up and thinking that it wasn't something that needed to be dealt with. something that needed to be dealt with. But, you know, that stacked on top of, you know, the other forms of abuse caused to me by other people that I couldn't control. And then the abuse I was causing to myself, and I mean, mostly emotional, just this flawed, terrible thinking I had about myself that, you know, I was eating a bunch and got overweight and bullied and became suicidal and just like this whole mess of this sort of stuff stacked on top of me. Yeah, it's a spiral that very few people would ever really be able to climb out of. So all of that kind of, all of that nastiness and ugliness and, you know, I was just believing

so many lies. I was believing the lies these kids were saying about me because I was a short, fat foster kid. I put so much stock in their words. I put so much weight in their words. I was listening to all the wrong voices. You know, here I was, I wouldn't give these loving foster home, these loving foster parents a chance, not a chance at all. I'd already written them off. And then there's some, you know, kid who's being a jerk, likely dealing with their own insecurities, who's saying things about me,

and why is it that I put so much stock and value in what they said? But at 14, I ended up, I tell this story a lot, so I'm trying to intentionally not do like the speaker version of it. No, I'm trying to be intentional about that actually, which is fun for me. So, okay, 14, social worker comes and picks me up and is like, all right, here's these people, the Wiedemeyers, Yukon, Oklahoma. And I'm just like tuning it out.

I'm like, all right, yep, here we go. Yet another family, yet another family. You're clicking a stopwatch. Oh yeah, exactly. Come on. Let's beat the high score here. They're going to put on the good show in front of the social worker and they're going to welcome me into the home and this and that. And in the beginning, it felt like that. When I showed up and met them, it wasn't like, ah, here are these savior parents or something. It's like, all right, just here we go again. Let's see how long these people can last.

And what I love about them and their story is that they have no unusual training. They have no, I mean, my foster dad, he was a middle school history teacher. My foster mother was a repo woman, which to me is like the perfect foster mom. She's like very loving but also has a concealed weapons license. So like I will hug you and then bust a cap in you if you get out of line. I will hug you and then bust a cap in you if you get out of line. So nothing, you know, nothing on the outside particularly sort of felt different or more uniquely qualified about these sets of parents. And I was, man, you know, those first couple of years I was still kind of pushing and prodding and just trying to push them away and shove them away. And, uh, and it became clear to me that it, at the least they had stamina and at the least

they were thick skinned because I was trying to, I was kind of pulling out all my best stuff. Right. Well, if you're a, if you're a high school teacher and a repo man, you're not afraid of conflict. Exactly. And I was kind of slowly letting my guard down. Now, my goodness, I would never have told them that. I probably wasn't sort of leaking any intelligence that that's what was going on. I was trying to still kind of be the, you know, the stubborn kid that you weren't going to get through to or whatever. But I was, I remember my heart was very slowly, and I mean very slowly, beginning to soften towards these folks. And what was it that was different that allowed that to occur? Was it just their patience or their unperturbed kind of nature

about whatever you were throwing at them? It kind of goes back to my key parenting philosophy, consistent encouragement and consistent consequences, and it was like totally fair on both. Even though I'd complain when there was a consequence, I'd get grounded because I did something stupid and I very well deserved to get grounded, even though I would, of course, complain like any teen is going to.

I was like, man, yeah, yeah, they're right. And again, the crazy thing, there's probably some parent who's just going through the thick of it right now. I did not even go back and thank them until I was, I don't know, 21 years old. Like, thank you for not giving up on me. Thank you for not getting rid of me. Thank you for not letting me push you away when I was doing everything humanly possible to out, you act out. I had not yet kind of talked through my issues with the counselor and kind of brought it up and dealt with it and got clear on what the lies were and what was true and all that. So I tried many tactics to feel better,

you know, acting out and eating and drinking and all these sorts of things. And I was like, yeah, it doesn't really last. So I thought, well, I've grown up so poor. Maybe money's the answer. Maybe things, stuff. So I got a checkbook and began to write upwards of around $10,000, $11,000 worth of hot checks. I've always been an overachiever, I guess. You stole a checkbook or you just wrote bad checks on your own account?

I had a legitimate checking account, but with like $100 in it or whatever. It's something you couldn't do that today. I would go to a gas station, get gas, and then be like, all right, can I write the check for over the additional amount and get cash? Yeah, up to $100. So write the check for $120 and just go all over and do that and then buy stuff I wanted with it or whatever. So one of those hot checks I wrote was for my car insurance. And at least in Oklahoma, if you don't have insurance for a period of time, I guess they ping the DMV or what have you.

And my driver's license was canceled. So I'm going down the road speeding to something, and I get pulled over. And I knew I was going 88 or something. That was pretty serious, but I didn't know that my driver's license had been canceled. But then the cop's like, I'm going to need you to step back to the back of the car, and he's handcuffing me, and do you understand that your license has been revoked or suspended or whatever? And long and short of it, he takes me to jail, Stillwater, Oklahoma,

near Oklahoma State University, and brings me in kind of this cell where there's, I don't know, like 20 people, mainly just like college kids who were drunk, probably being stupid in public. And, you know, I get to call my parents and tell them what went down. And they said, okay, we're not going to bail you out tonight but we'll see you tomorrow and looking back i just think of how how freaking brilliant even and loving that move was for them to basically be like we think it's so important for you to sit in your choice for a little while longer. We don't want to remove this, what I would now call,

as cheesy as this may sound, we don't want to remove this blessing, this wonderful opportunity from your life. They didn't say that on the phone, but they're like, all right, your choice. We're not bailing you out tonight. You can wear this suit. We'll see you tomorrow. Right.

But looking back, I'm like, man, there's some instinct or brilliance or something in that moment right there. And I think those are the little moments know, those are the little moments that, that, that really matter, that turn into big moments. And I, I just remember sitting in that, in that cell in the corner and all these jail movies are going through my mind. So I'm like, my God, what's going to happen? And I'm freaked out. And, uh, I just remember thinking, man, I'm, I'm about to become that foster kid statistic. You know, dead, in jail, homeless.

More than 50% of homeless people are former foster kids. I'm like, man, this is no longer cute and clever and, you know, acting out in class or being a pain to some foster mom until she kicks you out of the house. Like, I don't know what I want with my life, but I know for sure it's not this. And it was just so heavy and so clear, and I had no idea what to do. I had no idea how to get help. I had no idea what help meant. I had no idea what that pot of gold at the end of the rainbow was for me. And certainly not the 28 steps between there and now.

Right. But this was your bottom. This was your moment of reckoning. This isn't it. Yeah. And when that comes, the blessing there is that little seedling of willingness to change. Yes. And I think you're exactly right. And that's the one thing no one can give you is a willingness.

Someone can come alongside you and say, all right, are you serious? Like, serious this time. Really? You really mean it? You want to change? You want the help? You'll accept the help? Yes.

Okay, cool. Well, let's get you a counselor. Let's get you a mentor. Let's start doing know, let's start doing this instead of that. Let's set up a schedule. Let's, let's remove your, um, unscheduled time. Cause you don't do well with that. But that willingness, no one can give you, no one can systematize, uh, none of that. You, you have to get there yourself through either inspiration of like that's beautiful and i want to go towards that or through your own stupidity of going i'm tired of this yeah like i've tried it and it i'm i'm done i'm done pain is the ultimate catalyst to willingness you

know unfortunately uh you know if you could come up you know, a way to distill it down and inspire that level of willingness in people, then you're on to something because it's tricky. You can't you cannot give it to somebody. It has to be internally generated. And everybody's different. Where that comes from is different. You know, in me, it was it was pain. It was a it was a different version of what you just expressed. But it didn't come until I realized I was out of other options, that there wasn't going to be a different way or an easier way.

And going back to parenting, I think that's why consistent consequences is so key, is you give your kids the blessing the consequences can be, meaning they screw up in class. I mean, even something as minor as that, you're not bailing them out. You're not apologizing to the teacher. You're not figuring out how they're going to get their grades up. All of that is codependent. They are. It's on them.

Like, I care, but you need to care more. This is on you. So the next morning, they pick me up. I'm wearing, like, the little orange suit. I mean, I'm so humiliated. I don't know. It was lousy. I didn't sleep at all.

And I was expecting them to be pissed. I mean, I was expecting, they didn't, well, they almost never yelled at me, but they would understandably like I, I could, I could push your buttons and, and they would, they would yell. They were, they were never, you know, physical or anything inappropriate, but I was expecting, They were never physical or anything inappropriate, but I was expecting like a good old Oklahoma, like, boy, listen here. And it was just kind of an awkward car ride home, not a lot of chit-chat, not much to say. They weren't getting on my case. I always, you know, one of my insecurity blankets is humor, so I was probably making jokes and trying to be like, ha-ha, about the whole situation.

And they brought me home, and I was like, all right, here comes the lecture, here comes the thing. And they said some stuff, but the thing that really zinged me is they said, you know, you can keep pushing us away, you can keep causing problems. You can keep trying to shove us away, but you just need to get it through your head that we don't see you as a problem. We see you as an opportunity. And it was for whatever reason, such a game changing moment for me. And I suspect they had said something like that probably hundreds of times. Right. But you were finally in a place where you could really hear it. Yes, and it, you know, as parents and as people, we sometimes, we do not realize how powerful

our words can be, particularly if you understand the mechanism of timing. And I think though they are not perfect and though they made mistakes, again, as we all do, I think they understood the unique window of time they had entered into at a moment where this kid was as raw as he could be, to step up and to say something meaningful and life-giving and important and true and true. It was so clear, so loud, crystal clear. It was that epiphany catalytic moment. it was that epiphany catalytic moment.

Now, I think in one second you can make a decision to change your life. Literally one second. The process of actually changing your life, that's going to take years. But if you know that you have that willingness, be it through pain, which is how most of us get there, or through here's something more ideal I would like, then it's just logistics. Then it's just resourcefulness. Then it's just swallowing your pride, your ego, and I'm talking about me here, stubbornness, hardheadedness of, oh, I can handle this on my own. Really? How's that going?

And saying, I don't care what it takes. Like, yes. Yes to counseling, which I think is stupid. Yes to this thing that I thought was stupid that I didn't want to do. Like, I'm in. I'll try whatever because I don't know what I want, but I don't want this. All right, you guys, we did it.

We're done. We're out of here. At least that's the end of part one. Don't forget part two. I'm going to put that one up late Wednesday night. That's December 10th, Pacific Standard Time. So, that will find its

way to your MP3 player. I don't know when. Depends on where in this beautiful planet you happen to live. All right. So, Josh hit some buttons for me, I gotta say. We recorded this conversation several weeks ago, but much of it has left me thinking long and hard about some of my habits, particularly my habits around technology, my habits around social media, my habits surrounding really any kind of escape from my present reality and what I grab onto to achieve that end. present reality and what I grab onto to achieve that end. And they say, and I say all the time on this podcast, that you're either growing or regressing in any given moment. There is no cruise control. Every decision you make, every thought that you have, every action that you take is either moving you towards a better version of yourself or away from that. And I know that I have at times engaged in sort of an unhealthy preoccupation with my devices. You know, I'm a guy who, you know what, I'm prone to be checking my Twitter and my Instagram and the Snapchat and the Facebook and all of that stuff a little bit more than I should be. I wouldn't go so far as to say I'm completely addicted or I have some kind of crazy obsession, but you know what? I catch myself doing it a lot. And I do it in places where I

really just want to remove myself from the moment. You know, whether I'm standing in line somewhere or I'm waiting for somebody, or I'm just in a situation where I'm bored or I'm not enjoying myself. I can just go to my phone and go to that special place and remove myself from whatever presence I happen to be finding myself in at that moment. And you know what? I don't know if this is such a good thing. You know, I can justify it.

I can say, well, this is part of my job. You know, it's part of my job to be engaged in these platforms. I need to be there. I need to be commenting. I need to be seeing what people are saying. And you know, this is how I'm making a living. I can give you 100 reasons why, you know, this is the right thing for me to do, to be engaged all the time. But I think a lot of that is BS. really get honest with myself and really embrace the idea that a lot of this activity is not productive. It's counterproductive. And it's also preventing me from being fully present in whatever it is I happen to be doing in that moment. I think I'm being productive, but am I? I mean,

why am I doing so much meditation and all this other personal work that I'm doing if I'm then going to immediately escape the present by staring at my phone, it doesn't make sense. It's counterintuitive. So here's what's up. I have decided with Josh's help and urging that I am going to do a 30-day trial run, a technology detox of sorts, Not a complete detox, but what I'm going to do and what I'm committing to doing is taking Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and mail, that's right, even email off my phone. And the intention behind this is to really create healthy boundaries and rules around my online engagement. It's not that I'm not going

to answer emails. It's just that I'm going to have set times when I look at it and respond to it. So, it's not just constantly invading my consciousness. So, when I post, when I don't post, when I allow myself to go on social media, when I allow myself to read and respond to email, all of these things will be consciously thought out ahead of time so that I am curtailing the simple time that I have been wasting living vicariously through other people's social media meanderings and redirecting that attention both inward and towards being engaged and present in whatever I'm doing so I can be better at whatever I'm doing in that moment, whether it's work or whether it's with my kids or with my wife, or even standing in line and saying hello to that person behind the cash register. How about that for a concept? So this is what I'm going to do.

I'm a little bit scared. I'm a little bit intimidated, but I'm going to give it a go. All right, you guys. So today, Josh talked a lot about life transformation. I happen to have a little bit of guidance on that as well. So I want you guys to, if you haven't already, check out my online courses, The Ultimate Guide to Plant-Based Nutrition and The Art of Living with Purpose. They both can be found at mindbodygreen.com. They both offer multiple hours of streaming video content, downloadable tools, and they both feature interactive communities. Essentially everything you need to get more plants in your active life. And we all could use this. Everything you need to set you on a new and healthier nutrition trajectory, help you probe more deeply inside yourself

to learn more about what makes you tick, help you set the right goals for yourself. Help you take those goals across the finish line and ultimately raise the bar on your personal and athletic life experience. So if you want to learn more about how all of that works, go to mindbodygreen.com. Click video courses at the top of the homepage menu. And there's plenty more information there. And of course, at richroll.com, we've got some nutritional products. We've got our e-cookbook. We have our meditation program. We've got merch,

including a couple new awesome t-shirt designs we're super psyched about. And again, we're running an awesome sale through December 20th, $10 off all t-shirts, $10 off my repair plant-based protein post-workout recovery formula. And we're offering two for one on our B12 supplement. So you can find out more about all of that at richworld.com. Don't forget to subscribe to my newsletter there. And that way you can stay clued in as to what's what, including these sales.

If you haven't already, give us a review on iTunes. Come on, you guys, it only takes two seconds. Hook me up. If you're in LA, come to our new restaurant, Joy Cafe, J-O-I Cafe, out in the Westlake Village area. You can find me there eating lunch a couple times a week. Engage me. Eat some great food.

Leave feeling great. You want to learn more about Joy Cafe, go to their website, joicafe.com. And yeah, there you go. As you may know, but if you're new, maybe you don't. iTunes only offers the most recent 50 episodes of the podcast. So if you want to go back into the catalog, go back to the beginning, here's some of the early stuff. The only way to do that is if you get our free app. It's for all iOS devices, iPhone, iPad, all of that. If you go to the iTunes app store, just type in my name, Rich Roll, you'll see the app there, download it completely free, and you will have access to the entire RRP canon. So check that out too.

Continue to support the show by telling friends, using the Amazon banner ad, and keep Instagramming, sharing on your social media. When I'm at those moments of time, when I'm allowed to go online socially, I will check it and I will comment. So don't forget to tag me at Rich Roll. Thanks so much.

All right, let's close it down. The assignment, this week's assignment. Well, if you've been listening to me, if you've heard this preface, then today's assignment should come as no surprise to you guys. I'm going to need you to do what I'm doing. I'm going to need you to look down at that precious phone of yours, that precious smartphone. And I want you to stare at all those beautiful, pretty, colorful apps. And I want you to pick an app. I want you to pick the app that you love, not just any app. I want you to pick the app that creates that obsession, the app that creates that habit, that compulsion, that go-to preoccupation

you can count on to remove you from whatever uncomfortable or boring situation you're in and soothe you with its dynamic interface. That's the app. That's the app I'm talking about. Then I want you to look at that app and I want you to delete it. That's right, you guys. Delete it. I know you don't want to do it. I don't want to do it. It's not fun. It's not comfortable. I can give you 10 reasons why it's a bad idea for me personally, but I'm going to do it anyway. You know what? I'm going to do it

right now. I'm on the mic with you guys here. I've got my phone right here, turning it on. You know what? Let's look at Twitter. I'm going to do Twitter. There it is. I'm going to hold my finger down on the button until it like quivers like that on my iPhone. And then I'm going to hit that little X on the upper left corner, delete Twitter. Deleting Twitter will also delete all of its data. That's pretty scary. All right, here we go. Delete. I did it. Wow. I just deleted Twitter from my phone. Did I just do that? Really? Whoa. Wow. Now I feel like I'm standing in front of my high school assembly naked. That feels weird. I'm not sure about this, but you know, if you want to grow, you got to do things that make you uncomfortable. And for me, this is uncomfortable. So I'll keep

you posted. I'll see you in a few days with part two of my conversation with Josh, and I'll give you an update on how I'm doing with all this technology detox stuff. Peace, you guys. Plants.