The Rich Roll Podcast - Zach Braff Is Processing Pain Through Art‎

Episode Date: March 23, 2023

We all face difficult experiences at some point in our lives: loss, grief, disappointment—feelings that can be overwhelming, confusing, and even paralyzing to confront. But what if we could transform our pain into something beautiful? What if we could use our creativity to process our emotions and, in turn, transmute them into something that speaks to others, serves as a communal salve, and illustrates that hope, help, and healing are possible? Today we explore the art of understanding, accepting, and processing emotion through the creative process with the incredibly talented actor, writer, director, and new friend, Zach Braff. Many of you may know Zach from the hit TV show 'Scrubs,' or his seminal directorial debut ‘Garden State’—a much-celebrated independent film he wrote, directed, and starred in alongside Natalie Portman. But today, we dive into the creative process behind Zach’s newest directorial effort, 'A Good Person,' a story about a young woman played by the eminently talented Florence Pugh whose world crumbles in the wake of surviving an unimaginable tragedy. In addition to discussing Zach’s background and his relationship with creativity, today we talk about what happens when you create with authenticity, find presence in pain, and make your own meaning. We also discuss Zach's own personal journey in bringing this story to life and the impact he hopes it will have on audiences. 'A Good Person' opens nationwide this Friday, March 24th— and how long it remains in the theatres is up to you. Let’s help him make this one a hit. Show notes + MORE Watch on YouTube Newsletter Sign-Up Today’s Sponsors: Thesis: takethesis.com/RICHROLL Squarespace: Squarespace.com/RichRoll  JOOVV: Joovv.com/RICHROLL Momentous: LiveMomentous.com/richroll Plant Power Meal Planner: https://meals.richroll.com Peace + Plants, Rich

The Rich Roll Podcast. What if I was completely authentic with my own pain? I stopped with all the bullshit and stopped with trying to be anything else other than let me write something that is very authentically myself. I sat down to write this film about grief and about loss, but also about how one stands back up. As a writer, this is what's gurgling inside of you. And when you sit down and stare at the blank cursor to see what's going to come out, this is what came out. We all face difficult experiences at some point in our lives, loss, grief, disappointment.

But what if we could transform our pain into something beautiful? What if we could use our creativity to process our emotions and in turn transmute them into something that speaks to others, serves as a communal salve, helps us better understand our own pain, and in turn illustrates that hope, help, and healing is possible.

Well, today we explore the art of understanding, accepting, and processing emotion with the incredibly talented actor, writer, director, and new friend, Zach Braff. Many of you may know Zach from the hit TV show Scrubs, or perhaps from his seminal directorial debut, Garden State, which was a much-celebrated independent film that Zach wrote, directed, and starred in, alongside Natalie Portman.

But today, we dive into the creative process behind Zach's newest directorial effort, A Good Person, which is this really beautiful story about a young woman played by the incredibly talented Florence Pugh, whose world crumbles in the wake of surviving just an unimaginable tragedy. It's a story about grief.

It's about addiction, forgiveness, trust. It's about friendship. And most importantly, the messy path to sobriety, to becoming whole, which are all themes very close to my heart, of course, that I relate to deeply through my own lived experience. And which I think Zach renders

with a very keen appreciation for the complexity and the nuance of this emotional landscape, as well as this just incredible degree of accuracy that's rarely portrayed in cinema. I got a couple more things I would very much like to mention before we dig into this one, but first. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment, an experience that I had that quite literally saved my life.

And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care, especially because unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. It's a real problem. A problem I'm now happy and proud to share has been solved by the people at recovery.com who created an online support portal designed to guide, to support, and empower you to find the ideal level of care tailored to your personal needs. They've partnered with the best global behavioral health providers to cover the full spectrum of behavioral health disorders, including substance use disorders, depression, anxiety, eating disorders, gambling addictions, and more. Navigating their site is simple.

Search by insurance coverage, location, treatment type, you name it. Plus, you can read reviews from former patients to help you decide. Whether you're a busy exec, a parent of a struggling teen, or battling addiction yourself, I feel you. I empathize with you. I really do. And they have treatment options for you. Life in recovery is wonderful, and recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. Today, we explore the themes of addiction, compassion, forgiveness, and self-discovery

that the film grapples with. In addition to discussing Zach's background and his personal relationship with creativity, his creative process, we talk about what happens when you create with authenticity, when you're able to find presence in pain, and what it means to take all of that and create meaning for yourself. We also discuss Zach's own personal journey

in bringing this particular story to life and the impact that he hopes it will have on audiences. Zach is an artist in the truest sense of the word. I really love getting to know him through this conversation. And it's just a privilege to share his wisdom and experience with you today. Final note, if you care about independent cinema like I do,

if you enjoy mature, fair, great writing, great acting, and look, if you just want to be entertained because this movie is that, as well as quite funny at times, then please make a point of going to the theater this weekend and checking it out. A Good Person opens nationwide March 24th. How long it remains in the theaters is kind of up to you. So if you enjoy this conversation, and I think you will, let's help Zach out a little bit and make this one a hit. And with that, here we go. This is me and Zach Braff.

Do you run every single day? No, I've got like lower back issues right now. So I'm actually benched from running at the moment, doing all these weird exercises to try to alleviate my back pain, but I might be looking at surgery. So I'm a little hampered. Brett Goldstein, you know that actor from Ted Lasso

who plays Roy Kent. Uh-huh. Do you watch that show? A little bit. I'm like one of the few people that hasn't like gone deep on Ted Lasso. I'm invested because I didn't know. I know, I know.

But anyway. The famous biscuit episode. I have lower back issues too. And I saw him at a party and he goes, I want you to read this book. I'm someone who's had back surgery and I'm gonna send you a book. I want you to get this book.

He goes, it's all in your mind. Yeah, the Sarno book. Yeah, the Sarno book. Did you read it? I've got a great story about it, but finish your mind. Yeah, the Sarno book. Yeah, the Sarno book. Did you read it? I've got a great story about it, but finish your thought. But anyway, I'm like, I'm literally at this get together with a fucking back brace on and he hugs me

and he feels it and he goes, I've had surgery. I've gone down the wormhole and you're gonna roll your eyes at me, but you should read this book. So I haven't read the book yet, but I ordered the book. Yeah, so it's by this guy, I believe it's Paul Sarno. Sarno is definitely the last. I can't remember the title, but but I ordered the book. Yeah, so it's by this guy, I believe it's Paul Sarno. Sarno is definitely the last. I can't remember the title,

but it's something like healing back pain. And the thesis of this book is essentially that not all back pain, but certain types of back pain are really the result of unhealed emotional trauma. And if you go into that and heal that, you will release whatever it is that's causing you that pain. I believe the hypothesis.

It is a good hypothesis. I think there's truth in that. And that book has been recommended to me so many times by so many people over the years. And I consistently resisted it. I was like, you don't understand. You know, you don't understand. This is real.

And I've got MRIs and like the whole thing. I've tried all these alternative modalities. And then I was at a birthday party, maybe six months ago, talking to a PT person and a breath work person. And then up walks Tobey Maguire. And he's like, are you talking about back pain? And then he tells his story of back pain

and he refers this book, right? And I was like, okay, I've been referred this book a million times, but I've never been referred this book by like an A-list actor. Is this the voice of God? And I was like, all right, I'm going to get this book. And I downloaded it on Audible and I went on a long bike ride and I listened to the whole thing. And I was like, okay, it's in my mind. And then the next day I like went out and went running and kind of pushed myself a little bit more than I should have.

And I thought, well, I'm not hurting myself because it's all in my mind, right? And then my back seized up and I was like in bed for two days. Oh no. So, well, that book might not be intended for like mega marathoners like you, but for people like me who can point to,

yeah, I have had a lot of emotional trauma and I also have a horrible back and neck. Maybe it's something to look at. I don't know that the book's gonna tell me how to fix it, but I certainly have bouts of bad backs after periods of depression or periods of trauma. Well, that's information, right? That's good information.

Yeah, it's good data, I guess. You should read the book. It is a good book. It's on my kitchen counter. So now I'm recommending it to you. Like I had a awkward experiment with it. Anyway, Sunday Emergency Pod, Sunday afternoon, we're here. Thank you for coming and doing this.

It's an auspicious day. It is unusual for us to do a podcast on the weekend. On top of that, it's Daylight Savings today. It's also Oscar Sunday. I take it you're not going to the Oscars. I'm not going to the Oscars. I'm low-key watching it with friends on a couch. Yeah. Have you been in the past? I've never been to the Oscars. I've been to after parties and stuff like that, but I've never had a film that was invited in any way. I've been to the Globes and the Emmys, but to the Oscars. I've been to after parties and stuff like that, but I've never had a film that was invited in any way. I've been to the Globes and the Emmys, but never the big dance.

Yeah, but like you would be, like I would imagine you would be invited, right? Like, are you somebody who's like, I'm not going unless I have a film there? I've never been invited. Yeah, that's surprising. I've never had a film that was included. So you're really not invited unless

you either have a film that's there or you're someone's date. I got it right. Well, we're here instead. Yeah. The consolation prize, right? But we're here because you do have this wonderful new movie coming out.

A good person. Thank you for letting me take a peek at it the other day. And I'm excited for you, man. This feels like a return to something that is so authentically you, like the grownup Garden State, Zach Braff, like exploring complicated emotions in a way that is a story version of how you're kind of processing, you know, things that

you went through in your own life. Yeah. That's very true. I think I went back to what if I was completely authentic with my own pain? And that's something that Garden State very much was. And I had no idea that it would have the response it had, but I was 25 years old when I wrote it. And I was in a very depressed state, even though a lot of wonderful things were going on in my life, I just was quite lost. And that's kind of what bubbled up and what came out of me. And now during the pandemic, circumstances were such that this is what came out of me. And so I think you're right. In both instances, I really,

I stopped with all the bullshit and stopped with trying to be anything else other than for better or for worse, let me write something that is very authentically myself. The direct impetus was a series of losses that you experienced most specifically, like you had your best friend who was like living in your guest house, right?

Yeah. During COVID? Well, the first impetus for writing about tragedy and trauma was I lost my, my sister had an aneurysm in 2016 and she actually survived, although in not a fully conscious state, in some tiny percentage of herself

was alive for two more years. And my mom and brother in particular were by her bedside almost every day because they lived up North and I would go visit her and she was not only a fraction of herself was there. Then she eventually passed. And soon after my father, who was 84, but I can't help but think that it kind of expedited his demise. He died of cancer after. I went into the COVID still grieving all of these things. And then my best friend was living in my guest house. He and his wife and their newborn baby were searching LA for a home.

They found a home. They went back to New York to collect their things. And literally like the first day of lockdown, they came back from New York and he had contracted COVID. And this was at the very beginning. Right, early, early. Nobody knew what the hell, it was the mayhem of the beginning of I think March of 2020.

Right. He's 41 years old, very healthy, a Broadway star, trying to get his life going as a TV and film actor. And he was very sick and they put him on a ventilator and he never came off of it. So not only was I on the front lines of losing someone who was close to me to COVID, but his wife and baby were living in the guest house,

you know, trying to digest this horrible thing. And it was so traumatic because we didn't know if she had COVID or we didn't know, you know, it was so- I mean, that was back when we're all like sort of spraying our groceries in the front lawn and all that kind of craziness before. So she'd be- Yeah, there was a lot of fear. She'd be sobbing in the pile on the ground.

And we were like, can we hug her? Is it safe to hug her? She might have been exposed to it. So it was really, really horrific. And it was in that headspace during the lockdown that I sat down to write this film about grief and about loss, but also about how one stands back up after such things.

Well, for me, like I'm not like a film critic or somebody who has tons of filmmakers on the podcast. So I don't know where the line is. Like I don't wanna spoil anything for anybody. So maybe we root it just in the themes here. Well, there's certain things that are in the trailer that we can talk about. I mean, what I found interesting about it is,

yes, you explore these themes of grief and loss and loneliness and despair and this kind of very messy road to finding your way forward to recovery, but you do it through modalities that are very different from your lived experience, right? So there's a choice that you made. Like you could have had a more direct kind of narrative

that related more specifically to the things that you experienced, but you made this decision to do it through somebody who's involved in a car accident and there are people that die and there's drugs involved and et cetera, which is not related to your direct experience. Although the emotional experience

of that character's journey, I assume kind of matches up with your own. I think so, yeah. I think it was the way I was processing all of these things, but I didn't wanna write specifically the story of my life. I didn't wanna write about COVID. I didn't wanna write about my sister's aneurysm.

Right. But all of that was, you know, it's like as a writer, I'm sure you know, and other writers can relate, you have all of this gurgling inside of you. And when you sit down and stare at the blank cursor to see what's gonna come out, or a songwriter I imagine would be the same, this is what came out.

This story is sort of my interpretation of all these feelings I had, including recovery and things I'm wrestling with my own relationship to alcohol. And all of that stuff became a part of it, but it's by no means directly my story. Yeah, it's interesting like that, you know, as somebody who's been in recovery for a long time,

like my kind of radar for false notes in movies and television that kind of grapple with addiction stories is pretty finely tuned, right? And even we were talking and you're like, it'll be interesting to get my feedback on that because usually people who tell a story in that subculture are people that have experience participating in that, right? Which is not you, which led me to think, well, maybe he's gonna get it wrong because so often it is like off note,

but in watching the film, and this is the honest truth, like I was surprised that you were able to create such fidelity because that is typically, you know, something that only somebody who has direct experience with that world would be able to accomplish. And I know you had, you know, experts or consultants

or whatever helping you with that, but that's a very hard thing to do. And I think it's, for me, the kind of cinema verite of it all or the kind of honesty comes through in the messiness of it. Like usually the story arc is somebody has a hard time, they're going through something, they hit bottom,

they end up in the rooms of recovery and then the movie ends or like that's the end of the story. Whereas in this narrative, it's very up and down, right? That's not the end of the story. And I think that's much more true to reality, like how difficult and nonlinear the whole thing is. Well, thank you. I have to say that means so much to me coming from you. And I was very nervous to show you. I did, of course, have consultants. I did not want to do anything that someone in the community would go, that's not real. I asked a lot of questions.

I have friends in AA. I had someone who's sort of a recovery expert who was on set anytime we dealt with that stuff. But when I was showing you the film, I was like so nervous that not just, of course, you know, it isn't hard to get the details of what an AA meeting is like, or perhaps, but I really just wanted to honor that community.

And in this film, it saves the character played by Florence Pugh's life and the character played by Morgan Freeman's life. So I wanted to honor the community. So when you had that reaction, I was relieved and happy. Yeah, yeah, it's not an easy thing to accomplish. Of course, you have this incredible ace in the hand with Florence

because she's just a genius. Yeah. I mean, her, what she is able to do is so beyond, like, the abilities of mere mortals. Like, it really is a gift. She's not of this world.

Like, it's incredible. She's not of this world. I really believe that. How does she do that? And it's completely- With her face or just with the most subtle thing, the honesty and the pathos is unbelievable with her.

I'll make it one more step miraculous for you. She has never attended a single class in her entire life. She's never spoken to a acting coach. It is 1000% God-given natural talent. And I'm not biased in saying she's one of the finest actors in the world. Everyone's lining up from Chris Nolan to Denis Villeneuve to Ari Aster to you name it.

They're all in a line to try and work with her. And I wrote this for her. It's no secret, obviously we were partners and she was with me through this pandemic. We were in lockdown together. She's an amazing chef and she was making Amanda pizzas in our little mini pizza oven and bringing them down to her.

We were on the front lines of this experience together. We went through lockdown and the death of our friend together. And so I wrote this with her in mind because I wanted to write something for her because she's brilliant. Yeah, well, she knocks it out of the park, not surprisingly. And I really do think, she knocks it out of the park, not surprisingly.

And I really do think that she is the greatest of her generation. You know, she is the heir apparent of Meryl Streep in so many ways. Like nobody can do what she can do. And when you watch her, you're like, how is she doing this? And it's so exciting for the, it's so exciting. I gotta say it's so exciting for the acting community because there's plenty of people that are very fine actors.

I think I'm a decent actor. I think I do a good job. But we actors, whether it's me or Meryl Streep, are taking this woman aside and being like, holy shit, you are fucking incredible. So what is that? Like, what is her process? It's God- God given, man.

There's nothing. She just channels it and it happens. I mean, I'm not saying she doesn't do work. Of course she works on the character. She spoke with, in this film, her character has an opioid addiction and she spoke and met with a woman who recovered from a bad opioid addiction

and talked about what withdrawal was like, what, you know, she sort of interviewed her and talked about, please tell me anything and everything. She watched videos. She does her research, don't get me wrong. But I don't know what to say other than it's just a natural ability that's out of this world. And you as the director,

like what is your interface with her in terms of like how you're, you know, directing her, how you're nudging her to get the performance out of her that you want or need, or do you just get out of the way? I think with people like her and Morgan, you just don't get in the way. The way I think of it is, we shoot everything out of order, as you know. And so an actor, a good actor, a great actor is so focused in the moment in the scene, just like you and I are talking here right now. Our job is to ignore that there's cameras,

ignore that there's lights, ignore that there's lights, look at each other and be present. And the best instruction you can ever give a young actor is to genuinely listen. Because if I'm genuinely listening to you, Rich, I am so in the moment and present. My brain is listening to you. It's like a meditation. I'm not thinking of the moving camera. I'm not thinking of the guy whispering in his walkie talkie. I'm with you. And so there in that moment, my job as the director is to look at the macro of the whole film. I need to go, I wonder if Morgan is a little bit angry in the sequence of their evolution of their relationship. And it's always a question with a genius like that. You're like, do you think we should try one where you're not as angry here? Because we're gonna go A, B, C, D, E, F, G.

And what do you think? And normally someone like them will be like, that's smart, let's try one like that. Other times they'll be like, no, no, I'm really feeling this because of these reasons. And you go, great, great, keep going. So I'm mostly staying out of the way, but I'm shaping it because like the conductor of an orchestra,

I have to see the whole piece. You're not going, think of it like Florence Pugh is like the best first violinist in the world. And I'm the conductor. I can't play violin like that. But I do know that at certain moments, she needs to be a little quieter so I can hear the oboe. Right.

Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. And that's what my job is as a filmmaker working with actors of that level. Yeah, having that global awareness of where this puzzle piece fits in the broader picture of the movie and making sure that it's simpatico in the flow

of the story you're trying to tell. And keeping the tone cohesive. That's really important because a movie like this, which I should say off the bat because we've only talked about the heavy stuff, also has a lot of humor in it. So the director's also really in control of the tone what movie are we all making we have to make sure we're making the same movie so there's other moments where you can go that's a bit too broad

a humorous moment for this movie or sometimes you try them and then go in the edit i gotta see that might that might not fit in this film when i start to really strip away all the pieces of clay and find out what this movie is. That might be too broad. This might be too maudlin. You know, so you're kind of, you're the one in charge of the tone of the thing. Yeah.

I feel like there is a bit of a tone arc in this movie because it kind of opens with Morgan Freeman's voiceover and that he's, you know, the voice of a Mary. You know, it's like that soothing voice and there's trainover and that he's, you know, the voice of a Mary. You know, it's like that soothing voice and there's train sets and you're thinking, oh, there's something, you know, perhaps very homey or potentially, you know, on the negative side, maybe even too sappy.

And then the movie kind of develops into this darker terrain that it's exploring. But then Florence Pugh's mom is Molly Shannon who can go super broad, right? Like that could get too nutty. Like if you're not making sure that that's properly calibrated for the story that you're trying to tell. That's the perfect articulation of what my job is as a filmmaker is to make sure we're all making the same movie. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like that somebody else is in another movie. Yeah. Well, that happens all the time. It throws out the whole thing. Yeah. You'll see that. The audience won't even know how to articulate it necessarily like that somebody else is in another movie. Yeah, well, that happens all the time. It throws off the whole thing, yeah. You'll see that. The audience won't even know how to articulate it necessarily like that, but they'll go, why are these scenes off? It's because that character's in a different film.

There's things I've loved, but every time there's a scene with X character, I go, oh, this person's in a different piece. Right. It alienates me every single time. And that's the job of the director to make sure to avoid that. I think so. Or to make sure everyone's on the same page. I think so. And by the way, people might love it. It might just be my own personal squirm that I go, oh my goodness,

this would be so much better if that character was in the same tone as the rest of this. Yeah. There's something about this movie also that feels a little bit kind of out of time given the current kind of state of Hollywood. Like this is a very traditional indie movie in the Sundance tradition. You made it with Killer Films, right? Like the, you know, premier production company for this type of movie. And in the era in which you came up in the Garden State times, it was all about Sundance. Like that was the zeitgeist of the culture and like launching an independent film

into mainstream awareness. And, you know, that was something that, you know, the culture kind of invested in, right? There's a lot of energy around that. Now, Hollywood is is very different place. Completely different. And it changes every year. It's different from last year.

It's like, I mean, my wife and Jai, we went to go to the movies the other day and we're like, what can we see? And we're like, these are the options, like 80 for Brady. Like, what are we gonna, you know, like, I wanna go to the movies. I wanna be excited to go to the movies. There was nothing exciting, right? Well, I made a movie. I wanna go to the movies. I made a movie. I wanna be excited to go to the movies.

There was nothing exciting, right? Well, I made a movie for you, Richard. Yes, I know. And I'm getting to my point, which is that it has become rarer and rarer that there is, you know, mature adult fare that deals with themes that, you know, appeal to someone like myself

that find their way into the movie theaters. It's either Marvel, DC, giant event picks, or the occasional outlier, like everything, everywhere, all at once. But that's still visual spectacle. So I would say it falls into visual spectacle and horror. Horror is big still. Yeah, horror is big still.

Predictable to, yeah. But a movie like yours, these movies don't end up in the movie theater. Like it's amazing that you figured out a way to get this movie in the movie theaters. That's why I'm praying that people go. I mean, how did that happen? That's a great question.

How did it happen? It happened because MGM so believed in the film that they said they were gonna give it a theatrical release. Now, mind you, this film was, we shot in the fall of 2021. It was ready to come out end of 2022, but Florence had two other high profile films and it was a bit crowded of a marketplace.

So MGM held it until this spring, March 24th. So in the meantime, I was, the company was purchased by Amazon. Right. And so in my head, I'm was purchased by Amazon. Right. And so in my head, I'm terrified. I'm going- They're gonna just put it right. It's gonna go right to prime. If I say to other filmmakers,

I have a theatrical release, they're like, what? Yeah. To your point, it's very rare that these films even get a theatrical release anymore. So I was nervous that Amazon would just put it on streaming, but they believe in it too. So I think the response has been so positive that they're gonna give it a run.

It'll be on 500 screens on the first weekend, which for an indie is substantial. And then it's all about how it performs opening weekend. And that will dictate whether it leads to fight another weekend. Every filmmaker's future. I know. You work your butt off for so many years

and blood, sweat and tears. And it all really comes down to if people show up the first weekend. Sure, and those numbers come in like Friday night, right? Like there's an algorithm that predicts based upon the numbers on Friday night, how it's gonna do, right? Sometimes they'll surpass those numbers.

Like Creed really surpassed the algorithm. But yeah, based on all the decades and decades of data they have, although that should mostly be thrown out the window post COVID because all bets are off now post COVID, no one knows what's happening. But traditionally there's an algorithm that says, based on what's happening, you know, noon on Friday, we can predict what the weekend will be.

But sometimes they're off, you know, they were way off on Creed. Creed did like $20 million more than they thought. And so how do you balance your relationship to the creative act of making something and shipping it to use Seth Godin's term, like you're putting this thing out into the world, which you should be very proud of.

Like it's beautifully rendered and it's exquisitely performed and all of that, like that exists as this kind of music box thing. And then there's the commerce piece and the public response to it and all the kind of running around, promoting it kind of stuff that you have to do, the external noise around it. Like how do you maintain your sanity in the kind of stuff that you have to do, the external noise around it.

Like how do you maintain your sanity in the wake of- I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, man. You're right though, and I've heard you speak about this with other people and I really appreciated your perspective on it. Maybe your episode with Seth, one of your episodes with Seth Godin that maybe I'm thinking of,

but that difference between being so proud of something and yes, this is like your book, this is 100% authentically me. Now it's up to the universe to decide its fate, whether people go to the theaters, whether people respond to it or not. But how do you still hold on to good or bad that I'm proud of this thing

that I put all of myself into? That is very tricky and hard. I don't really know the answer. Do you get caught up in looking at the reviews and peeking at stuff that maybe you feel like, man, maybe I shouldn't look at that or- Well, I got off Twitter thanks to you, which was, I mean, I still will.

No, it was your conversation with Seth actually. You have no idea how much you really, and I mean this in all sincerity, what a positive impact this podcast has had on me. And I really wanna thank you. And I'll probably bring it up a few times as we chat. But one was Seth Godin saying, I have no interest in reading people

day trading their emotions. And that really, really landed hard with me because I had a very unhealthy relationship with constantly reading Twitter. And I don't mean just stuff that was about me. I just mean the negativity that is the town of Twitter. Yeah. And I was obsessed with being in that town.

And I'm someone who battles depression and anxiety. And like, I shouldn't be in that town. I'm too sensitive for that town. Like if it was a place, I wouldn't go there. I'll of course say like, hey, here's my trailer. But I don't obsessively read Twitter anymore. Yeah. In terms of reviews, I don't go down the rabbit hole and read all reviews. As a producer on the movie and as a partner to MGM and these companies, I'll of course know the gist. I'll know the tone, the tenor of the response,

but I won't obsessively go down and read everything. I don't know. Did you do that with your book? I don't know. Yeah, but that was a while ago. Like now I have a very different relationship with all of that. At the beginning, I was very caught up in all of that. And now I really work hard to create a buffer between myself and all of that noise. And I don't get caught up in the conversations

and I unfollowed everybody on Twitter. So I still have a Twitter account and like yourself, like I'll post stuff that's interesting or my own stuff, but I don't go and scroll through like what people say about me or what everybody's saying about like the culture war subject of the moment or any of that's the stuff that really gets me jacked up. Of course, reading something negative about myself

on Twitter was not good for my extraordinarily sensitive brain, but I'm not even really speaking about that. I'm just talking about the tenor of the conversation. I just think was really, really, really bad for my psyche. And another thing I got from you, I really should be your publicist, was I forgot the name of the author, but The Chaos Machine.

Max Fischer. That completely. I hope your listeners and viewers get that book, because I want to resell that book to you, because I got it off of your podcast and that completely changed my relationship with social media. Yeah, it's an incredible book.

I really needed to hear those words. And I'm a little bit on Instagram because I do enjoy pictures of things, but I'm not on Facebook. I'm not on Twitter. I'm not on YouTube obsessively. That book was transformational for me. Yeah, he's doing God's work.

He really is. And I wish more people knew about it. I found it on your podcast, but I was like, I'm just gonna be this guy's publicist and talk about it everywhere I go. I'm gonna give everyone the book for the holidays. I'm sure Max will be happy to hear that. I don't even have kids, but as a parent,

I feel like every parent should read that book because it is insane what these corporations are doing to our minds, let alone kids' minds. Agreed, 100%. And as a sensitive, creative person, part of your job is to protect that sensitivity. Like you have to be kind of in touch with your, you know, emotional

self and be able to kind of channel like what it is that you're feeling and experiencing. And all of that noise is either like the best case is it's a distraction. The worst case is it starts to, you know, tamper down that voice or you feel like you can't express yourself authentically and honestly, and that's antithetical to like everything that you need to be about to do what it is that you do. Exactly, or even worse, Rich, you start trying to chase

what you think people want you to be. You start trying to chase creating something that is not in any way authentically you, but is something you think will be better received by a studio, by an audience, by a movie theater chain, by a critic. That's not going to be good. That's like a band trying to write a hit album for the charts. Odds are, I mean, obviously there's certain pop stars that have it dialed. They're all written in Stockholm and they talk about an algorithm for creating a hit. But if you're trying to do something that is personal, like your book or like my films,

trying to mold them into something that is not you, that is not honest, that is not authentic, is gonna be a piece of shit because it's just a mess of something that, it's like something AI created that doesn't make any sense. Yeah, because you're so afraid of the cackle of the Twitter community that you're watering down your voice

to make it non-offensive or to make sure that you're adhering to a certain set of talking points that will be approved of by the community, the online community. But that's impossible. That's not something that's- It's terrible.

It's like the worst. But it's also, it's not something you could ever succeed in doing is pleasing everybody. I think that's another golden thing I got from you was that I read the tribes and talking about like, find your people and speak to them. Find people that feel like I do. And obviously you and I think alike

because I love your podcast and you liked my movie. So find people of like minds who appreciate what you have to say and make something for them. Don't try and I'm not trying to make a film for everyone. You couldn't, I couldn't, I wouldn't know how. Yeah. We all have a band. We're absolutely a love that some people say they hate. Sure. Right. It's like that. I mean, I'm so glad that Coldplay exists. Coldplay is one of my favorite bands. People abhor Coldplay. I go to the concerts in the stadiums and sob.

That's funny. My friend, Toby Morris, who's been on the podcast before, is like this hardcore, like punk rocker, straight edge, you know, fully covered in tats and comes from that kind of like DIY, you know, community of, you know, it's not about the money or whatever, but he's like a super emo bleeding

heart for like Coldplay. Like he just loves talking about Coldplay, which is antithetical to like this image of this like super tatted up guy, you know, but it's like, there's something beautiful about that. And it's something that we talked about earlier, which is that, and this goes to kind of the discourse on social media, which is that prioritizes or favors like cynicism and irony and negativity and judgment and scoring points for taking people down a peg. When in truth, like earnestness and enthusiasm and like being a fan of something and not worrying about whether it's

cool and just being confident in your own voice and expressing what you love, you know, the algorithm doesn't favor that and that might not be approved of or considered cool in like our current environment. But honestly, like that's the stock and trade of, you know, the kind of person that I wanna be around and the artists that I respect. Well, that's why I'm drawn to your show, because for me, what you're putting out there onto the internet is positivity and curiosity and the desire to learn and the desire to grow

and the desire to be a better person. It's the antithesis of what I think is the tenor of so much of the internet, which is who can out snark whom. And I'm trying to turn some of that off in my life. And that chaos machine book was like the perfect articulation of why. And find things that will help me be a kinder,

better, more interested person. Yeah. So I take it on some level that the process of like writing this movie provided some kind of therapeutic outlet for the confusing emotions that you were experiencing, the grief of your friend and your sister and your dad and all of that and COVID and all of that. But what is the connection between your own mental health journey and the kind of creative outlet of writing and directing stories

that help you kind of make sense of these things? I battled depression and anxiety my whole life. And I had OCD pretty bad as a child. And I think I found writing and performing as a way of dealing with that, particularly humor. Making people laugh was a high for me. I didn't play sports at all. I had no connection to sports. I didn't know how to make friends. So I became, because I was a funny kid, I became a class clown and that's how I made friends. And then when I was around 13 years old, my, you know, I lived in the East coast in Jersey

and well, sleepaway camp was very popular. A lot of the kids would go to a traditional sleepaway camp that was about sports and I didn't shine and I felt alienated and I was like, what's wrong with me? I love performing. And my parents found this theater camp for me that was called Stage Door Manor. And I went there and it was like epiphanous.

It was utopia. It was a place where everyone was a performer and everyone was like me. And I didn't know that there were other kids, that many kids out there like me. So just from an early age, the way I would manage anxiety and depression was creating art,

whether it was as a performer or as a writer. I have a very early memory of being in fifth grade and the teacher said, we had to write an essay and who's gonna get up in front of the class and read their essay. And I did, and I had written other kids in the class into the essay and made a very funny essay, And I had written other kids in the class into the essay

and made a very funny essay, but the protagonists were kids in the class. And I got up there and they were belly laughing as I read it. And I remember clocking the teacher in the back of the classroom, holding her stomach and laughing. And I thought this is probably the highest high

I've had in my life so far. Yeah, like lights on. Is there any chance this is a career? When's career day? So that's a long-winded way of saying that's why i became a writer and a filmmaker was a way of trying to find shared community with these feelings that i have and to answer your other question about is is it cathartic it's most cathartic when i finally watch it with an audience and I see their reaction. When they laugh at the right moment,

when they swipe a tear at the right moment, when their pin drop silent at the right moment, that's when I feel like, oh, I'm not alone in these emotions. Yeah, it's an antidote to loneliness. Yeah, you're- These emotions that I'm feeling are collective. Absolutely, absolutely.

That's the best, that's better said than I could have said it. It's an antidote to loneliness. Yeah, so you That's the best, that's better said than I could have said it. It's an antidote to loneliness. Yeah. So you went to like a public high school in New Jersey, but then you have this summer camp. Your dad was like a gregarious, charismatic guy, right? He did theater and that was your kind of original impetus.

Actually the original thing was he was a trial attorney who loved theater. So we were 45 minutes from the city in Jersey, from Manhattan. So we would go see, was he was a trial attorney who loved theater. So we were 45 minutes from the city in Jersey, from Manhattan. So we would go see, and he was a lawyer, so he could afford, I was very lucky, he could afford to bring us to the theater. And I loved musicals as a kid and he loved them.

And then he got into community theater. He would be the star of the local play because he was so charming and a very good actor. I mean, he could have been an actor. And that's kind of was, another reason I got my, that's how I ended up at theater camp was because he was wetting my palette

with the local theater and with Broadway. And, you know, that's how it all began. And that was kind of a, the theater camp that you went to was like a legit, Yeah, it's the real. Like primo theater camp, right? Yeah. Who came out, like some other names came out of that.

Well, Natalie Portman and Robert Downey Jr. and- Just a few. Just a few. Just a couple. There's lots. Josh Charles, Nanny Moore. There are some big, big names. And by the way, a ton that are working actors who aren't famous.

Yeah. A ton of theater and people you see all the time, but you might not know their name. I mean, if you were a young kid and you wanted to pursue this, this is where you went. This wasn't, this isn't just, as my father said, kind of with a little bit of a laugh, he said, I guess you don't need to bring a mitt.

Yeah. Right? But these are your people. Like you realize early on immediately, like, oh, this is my lane. This is my community. I relate to these people. I can be, you know, I can like sort of stand out here

and like be myself. And I don't have to wear the mask that I feel like I have to wear when I go to high school. And I would sob when it was time to leave. I really, I was, I really, I really can't express to you how much it felt like going to utopia for six weeks and then being pulled out to go back to what I dreaded. So it was traumatic in a weird way

because I had found what I thought was heaven on earth. But there's something really amazing, rare and beautiful about discovering at an early age, like what it is that you wanna do. Like that is something that is not, it's not a normal experience. Like most people, I feel like the pressure that's on, the typical 18 year old when they head off to college or whatever, they're supposed to know

what they wanna do with their life. Like most people don't, like that rare occasion where you're like, oh, this is the thing that I'm going to be doing. You know, it's like, there's something amazing about that. I feel very lucky about that. I know that people struggle for, you know, for years to find out what their calling is. I do feel very lucky that I knew it at such a young age.

Yeah. I think I'm starting to figure it out. I think you've got a couple of things you're really good at, man. It was at least, I don't know, mid forties before I figured it out. I think you've got a couple of things you're really good at, man. It was at least, I don't know, mid forties before I figured it out. But anyway, and I think people, they know you from Scrubs,

they know you from Garden State, they'll know you even more from this movie and you've done lots of things over the years, but you kind of like hit it hard early on, like your early years. I feel like that's kind of an under-reported aspect of your career. Like- Yeah, I had beginners luck.

Getting cast in like a Woody Allen movie when you were like 18 and then also the public, like, you know, you doing Shakespeare at the public when you were, how old were you then? So my very first part, I got 14, was a pilot for CBS that didn't get picked up. And then I kind of- That was the Bruce Paltrow, Gwyneth Paltrow.

Yeah, Bruce Paltrow created Seen Elsewhere. And it was Gwyneth's father, and it was her first part too. She was a stunning 17 year old, and I was sort of a nerdy 14 year old. And she played the beautiful cheerleader, and I played the nerdy freshman. It was about a public school.

Same year, 902, 90210 came out. Bruce Paltrow's sort of gritty answer to 90210. This is gonna be the dark side of 90210. By the way, the show couldn't even get picked up today. And this was when I was 14 years old. It was really gritty. It was bold as hell. Maybe on streaming, I don't know.

But it didn't go anywhere. It was too R-rated for CBS, certainly. And then I auditioned. I auditioned for lots of things. And then it wasn't until I was 18, I had gotten into Northwestern to go to film school. And right before I was about to go, I got cast in Manhattan Murder Mystery, Woody Allen's film with Diane Keaton. My first scene in a movie is, I'm only in one scene in the movie, but my scene partners are Woody Allen's film with Diane Keaton. My first scene in a movie is, I'm only in one scene in the movie, but my scene partners are Woody Allen, Diane Keaton and Angelica Houston.

It's insane. And I'm 18 years old and I'm playing. And you were kind of raised on Woody Allen. Yeah, I mean, now it's- Sensibility. It's frowned upon to talk about Woody Allen, but I do have to say the truth, which is without glorifying Woody Allen,

the truth is that I was raised on Woody Allen. He was my father's favorite. He was speaking to my parents. They loved it. He was their target demo. And so all of those films were very influential in my life. And then there I was playing, Annie Hall was their favorite movie.

And there I was playing Diane Keaton and Woody Allen's son. It was really surreal moment. And then I was sort of thought like, well, do I, this is a big thing. Do I stay with this and not go off to Northwestern and study film? But then I chose that. I said, I wanna go, I wanna really learn how to make movies.

And so that's what I did. That took a lot of courage, I think. I think most people probably would have thought, hey, I'm on my way. Like, why should I get off this train? I might not be able to get back on. In New York at the time, and we're talking about 93,

being an 18-year-old who had just landed the part of Woody Allen and Diane Keaton's son, that was a huge moment. And I did not write that. You were cast in a Woody Allen movie at that time. You're sort of being anointed. Yes. You're anointed. And then I didn't, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't ride that wave at all. I just disappeared. Right. And then I came back after Northwestern and I had a wonderful Shakespeare teacher. I was in film school,

but I talked my way into an acting class. Northwestern at the time separated the two schools, but I talked my way into an acting class. Northwestern at the time separated the two schools, but I talked my way into an acting class and I had a wonderful acting teacher. And one of the things he really introduced me to and explained to me and gave me the distinctions for was Shakespeare. And I understood it for the first time in my life through this incredible professor named David Downs. And the very first thing I got out of Northwestern was in a production of Macbeth starring Alec Baldwin, Angela Bassett, Lieb Schreiber, Michael C. Hall,

some others, Jason Butler Harner, and other incredible New York theater actors directed by George C. Wolfe, who's one of the preeminent theater directors in New York in a 300 seat house at the public theater. So that was my first job out of college. It's bananas. And it was crazy.

And I had a front row seat to watch these incredible actors, particularly the Eb Schreiberiber who I will say, and I don't, you know, for those who know New York theater, he's probably the- He's the dude. He's the finest, I believe he's probably the finest American Shakespearean actor that there is. So I got right out of school and I don't mean to diminish anybody else,

but Liev is particularly gifted. I got to have a front row seat watching Liev Schreiber do I got to have a front row seat watching Liev Schreiber do Shakespeare. And that was like life-changing and that was like grad school. Right. I would imagine also terrifying.

Absolutely. Like he's a pretty intimidating presence, that guy. He is, and I was playing two parts, young Seward and Fleance. And Fleance is Banquo, Leo's character's son. So I was in awe of him, but also, but definitely certainly intimidated by him because he's a very strong presence.

Yeah, so you go to Northwestern to study filmmaking, you come out and you're doing stage acting and you have all these acting opportunities that are not necessarily filmmaking opportunities, but the world is kind of like opening up to you pretty quickly. And not for nothing, like Northwestern, like incredible program.

I mean, who, so you must've been like that era was like, was Seth Meyers there when you were there? Yeah, Seth Meyers was there. Richie Keene, do you know Richie Keene? Yeah, how do you know Richie Keene? I know Richie Keene. Yeah, yeah, I love Richie Keene. One of my great buddies. We could talk about that later, but yeah, I love Richie Keen, do you know Richie Keen? Yeah, how do you know Richie Keen? I know Richie Keen. Yeah, yeah, I love Richie Keen. One of my great buddies.

We could talk about that later, but yeah, I love Richie. Lots of people, Catherine Hahn, who's an incredible actress and really gaining traction. There were so many really, really talented people. And again, people that are working and are brilliant, but not necessarily household names. Yeah, so at some point you find your way to Los Angeles though.

Like how does that happen? So it's funny, I was in New York. This is the height of the music video era, right? So, I mean, this is 1998. The Fuji's made a video for like $7 million. It was like the day, this is the era. You know, this is like Spice Girls, Mariah Carey. This was like the apex of the music video time.

People were spending a fortune. I was PA-ing on those, because I didn't want to take features as a PA, because that would lock me up and not let me be free to audition. So a PA on a commercial was kind of the perfect, or music video was the perfect job for me, because I could do three, four days,

make a little bit of money, and then be free to go on auditions. So that was kind of my system. Then I finally got an indie called, You Can Count On Me, that went to Sundance, that was like a big break. And then I got another one called The Broken Hearts Club, which was Greg Berlanti's very first film. And then that went to Sundance.

I went to Sundance two years in a row. So I was kind of starting to get momentum. With Timothy Oliphant, right? Timothy Oliphant, Billy Porter, Dean Cain, all sorts of wonderful actors. And then I was waiting, but I came out here, I had no money. I followed a girl out. I was dating a young woman and I sort of used that

as the impetus, but the truth was I knew, this was back in the day where if you were auditioning in New York, they were FedExing a VHS tape to LA. That's how you were trying to compete. Now, if you're the director of a movie, Rich, and I come in here to audition, we're gonna shoot the shit a little bit. We're gonna get to know each other.

We're gonna have a little bit of a bond. And then I'm gonna launch into my audition. And then you're gonna be able to say, I like that. Can you try it, bring it down a little bit and give me some notes. And then we're gonna go again. Now, that's how the actors in LA were auditioning. Then you'd go home and you'd have a stack of 40 VHS tapes

that had been sent from all over the country. You're going to barely watch them. You're going to fast forward them. So I knew that if I was going to seriously compete, I had to come out to LA. So I did. My parents loaned me $5,000 to buy a car. I bought a Nissan 240SX manual.

And I got a job at a French Vietnamese restaurant, which was called Le Colonial. It's no longer there, but it was in Beverly Hills at the corner of- I know it well. Beverly and Robertson. Yes. That place had a moment.

Oh, did it? That was the spot. I was there. So you were a waiter there. I was a waiter there. It's now a Leica store, which is? That was the spot. I was there. So you were a waiter there. I was a waiter there. It's now a Leica store, which is bizarre because- It's the Leica store, but 2000 to like 2002, like that around-

It eventually closed down because it was meant to be a restaurant, but it became such a hotspot. It was basically a nightclub. The neighborhood said, this is not what we give a permit for. And it was also, I don't know if you know this part, well, you work there, but it was kind of,

it became like a sober hangout at night. There was one night, was it like Monday night was the night and like we would all go and hang out at La Colonia. Yeah, I knew that. Like at 2000, I threw a party there. We served a lot of coffee. Once that year. Yeah, I know.

Yeah. Anyway, I remember that, like it was cool. Like at 2000, I threw a party there. We served a lot of coffee. Once that year. Yeah, I know. Yeah. Anyway, I remember that. It was cool, like that was the scene. There was a scene happening right now. I'm gonna blow your mind right now. You ready? Yeah. So I had to wear a tunic and the opening sequence of Garden State

where my character is working at a French Vietnamese restaurant is all inspired by my experience working at La Cologne. Yeah, I think I knew that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's true. I tried to. Now that, yeah, no, it's, yeah, that's right. That's right.

Yeah, that's wild, man. That's wild. So things had stalled a bit and I was a waiter and I was happy to be making money as a waiter, but I was not having any traction. All the traction I had had in New York was gone. And I was just, I couldn't get arrested here. And I started to get really insecure about it.

Maybe I came out here too fast. Maybe I should go back to New York where I had momentum. I was doubting everything. And my agent said, you're panicking, don't panic. Go through one more pilot season. This was back in the day when auditioning for pilots was actually the beginning of the year. It was like January to April more pilot season. This is back in the day when auditioning for pilots was actually the beginning of the year. It was like January to April was pilot season.

And I did in my first audition of that pilot season was for Scrubs. That's amazing. Little did you know that that would go on for how many years? Nine years you did that show? Yeah, nine years. I mean, huge show. And in thinking about that know, in thinking about

that, like in thinking about your career as like an independent writer director, and also as like a network television actor, you've forged your career along two kind of traditional paths. Like one, you become an actor in like a big network sitcom and it's all about syndication, like after a certain number of episodes or whatever, like it just becomes like a financial windfall, right? That allows you the opportunity to like do whatever you want. That's kind of like no longer,

I guess maybe the syndication even still exists. Not really, no, not in the traditional sense, no. And then the idea of like being an independent filmmaker and going to Sundance and like making a splash and becoming the new hot thing, I guess like, I mean, Sundance is still there. It's not what it used to be. Everything's kind of shifted.

Sundance is not what it was in 2004. No, of course not. Like, so when you're there, 94, 90, like when, you know, these early years. As an actor, 99 and 2000, but then in its prime for Garden State in 2004, I believe. And that was still the era of like Sundance. There was like a bidding war.

Yeah, and it was, I'm sorry to mention another controversial name, but at the time your fantasy, what you read about in all the books was that your cell phone would ring and it would be Harvey Weinstein and he wanted your movie. It was all about Miramax. And it was, I had been reading these books,

like, you know, you're a success when your phone rings and it's Harvey Weinstein and they want your movie. And that's what happened to me. They released it internationally and Fox Searchlight released it domestically. But that was the very first screenplay I'd ever written. And when I got Scrubs, I thought, I was so thrilled obviously, but then my second thought was,

oh, this is gonna help me get my movie made. That's the instinct of a real filmmaker though, right? Yeah, it's funny, I look back now, I sent my DP from the movie, who's now become an Oscar nominated cinematographer, Larry Schur, who shot the Joker and a zillion other things, but he's a brilliant guy. He shot Garden State and I found an old picture of us

and I sent it to him and he goes, "'We were so young,' and I said, "'We didn't know, we didn't know.'" Because I had such chutzpah, I didn't know so much that I just had so much drive. I was like, I'm gonna get this made. Yeah. I didn't know that not gonna get made.

What were you, 25, 26? Yeah. When Garden State happened. Yeah. So you're in this high profile sitcom. You write your first screenplay, you make this movie, you make it with Natalie Portman. It's a huge success.

Everyone's talking about it. Like that's vertigo inducing for a young man, right? Like how did you process all of that success? I think it takes time. It takes looking back on it to see, wow, what a crazy time. It was definitely a whirlwind. And I think I instantly had terror of trying to duplicate it.

Right, then it's like, how am I ever gonna top this? How am I ever gonna top it? And then you're sort of chasing it because it was lightning in a bottle. I don't know how, it's the classic sophomore album thing or sophomore book or sophomore movie where it's people are like, he like it's like a band will release an album

and it's time to write the sophomore album. They spent their whole life writing the first album. Right. My first screenplay was, I didn't spend my whole life writing it, but it was certainly everything I'd been brainstorming on since I'd gone to film school and wanted and dreamt of creating.

And then it was like, I always admired Damien Chazelle because Whiplash was a huge hit. And then he had a bunch of other things locked and loaded. Yeah. And I didn't, so I took work as an actor in films that some were good, some were bad. There was interest in me directing huge things, but I was also keep in mind, I was also doing the show for,

I was contractually obligated to keep doing the show for a very long time. Any of these other things could only happen during your brief window. So I would sometimes, once I set up a movie, I once set up a movie that I had adapted from a Danish film I loved. And it was literally, Sean Penn was attached to star in it

and it was all about to happen. And then if we didn't start by a certain date, we couldn't make the movie because I had to go back to scrubs and it's very, very hard to get anything made. And of course we didn't hit the date and the whole thing fell apart. Right.

So I had years of sort of feeling like I fucked everything up because I didn't, it was such a beginner's luck kind of situation where I didn't really know how to recapture it. And also I was, it was very hard for me to write because I was, maybe you might feel that way if you've written, I think I've heard you say this on the podcast that when you've had such a successful book,

you're like, how do I- You get blocked. Yeah, how do I- You get blocked. Yeah, how do I, I don't know how to begin to try and top that. I didn't think anyone was gonna see this fucking movie. I thought my parents and like the temple choir would go. Yeah, and it becomes this thing. You become a victim of your own success and the pressures that suddenly befall you.

I mean, you do move forward. I mean, I feel like the second movie got overshadowed by the whole crowdfunding. Yeah, I stepped in it. That like surrounded all of that. Yeah. Which is weird. I feel like if somebody were to pursue

that kind of fundraising for their film now, it would be a very different response than what happened then. I don't know. I definitely did not intend to become the face of that. I've always been interested in like new things. And, you know, Kevin Smith is the one who turned me on to MySpace.

He's like, you gotta try this thing, MySpace. It's so awesome. You can talk to your fans and have a discourse with them. And I'm like, really? So I've always been into like, you know, and I wrote a blog, he's the one who said, you should write a blog, you're a writer, you should, you know, so back in the day,

I was like writing a blog. He was the first one to do a podcast too. I mean, that guy's been at the front end of like a lot of stuff. Before MySpace even, I was writing, I had a, on my, at zachbraff.com, I wrote a blog, I would write a blog, and he's the one who taught me all about like interacting with your fans

and developing your fan base. And it's so cool if you're a writer, you can have like a daily interacting with your fans and developing your fan base. And it's so cool. If you're a writer, you can have like a daily conversation with your fans. I was like, what? So I was kind of always interested in the new thing. In that particular thing, it just so hit people the wrong way. And you're right.

I do agree that it hurt the film badly. And my hope is that one day, you know, people will revisit. Cameron Crowe told me that. And he's like, he really liked that movie and he was very supportive of that movie. And he said, I think there's gonna be a day. I don't know when it is, you know, people will revisit. Cameron Crowe told me that. And he's like, he really liked that movie. And he was very supportive of that movie. And he said, I think there's gonna be a day. I don't know when it is, he said,

but I think there's gonna be a day where people revisit that film and see it in a different light. Well, I can't remember where I heard you tell this story, but Larry David, like, he smiled upon it, right? It's funny, if you've made a bunch of things, anyone listening or anyone who's an artist and knows this, there are certain things you do that people like,

and there's certain things you do people don't, but you have a certain soft spot in your heart for things that didn't work that you go, it's a nail in my heart a little bit. Cause that film was really personal and very hard to make. And it was about the fear of losing my father and my brother and I wrote it together, my brother, Adam and I hard to make. And it was about the fear of losing my father and my brother and I wrote it together. My brother, Adam and I wrote it together.

Every once in a while, someone will come up to me and of all things I've done, and I've done a lot now I'm 47 years old. Someone will come up to me and say, Hey, I just wanna say, and the film we're talking about is called, Wish I Was Here. Wish I Was Here is a really important film for me.

And for me, it's like that they're complimenting my child that's underappreciated. And so one of those was Larry David. I was in a restaurant and Larry David came up to me and I was just totally still. And he said, this movie, Wish I Was Here, you wrote that? Like he was shocked. I was surprised.

No, he was totally shocked. And coming from him, who I love, of all people, I was like, yeah, he goes, that's a really well-written movie. So on behalf of my brother. I mean, come on, right? That was pretty cool. Yeah.

So I'm hoping one day people see it. It's that- I still have hope for it. It's that Seth Godin thing though. Like you said earlier, like what you put out in the world shouldn't be for everybody. And to the extent that it connects

with a certain kind of person, like that's why you're doing it. Isn't that what Godin said? He's like, I'm not making Coke. I'm not making Pepsi. I'm not making Doritos. He said something like that. Like I'm trying to make something that is certainly,

most certainly not for everyone. But when you find the people, whether it's you or Larry David, or the people that are my fans, I'm hopefully making something they can relate to. So you've done a ton of directing in television, Ted Lasso, and now shrinking, like working with Harrison Ford and Jason Segel,

which is super cool. But it's been a number of years since you wrote and directed your own film, right? Yeah, yeah. So like, why did that take so long? And then kind of maybe second to that, like what is the creative process? Is it just, you know, you finally realize like you have a story

to tell and then there's a mad rush and you get it done? Or like, what does that look like for you? I bat a little a lot. I mean, I liked your conversation about the war of art and getting your ass in the chair and staring at the blinking cursor. You just have to sit there. It's so easy now to procrastinate.

And I think the pandemic in this case really made me run out of excuses. Not only was all of this, you know what it feels like when you have something to say, it's kind of gurgling up. It's kind of like when you have to puke for lack of a better analogy, it's there. And you know you have to sit at the keyboard

if you can just get your butt in the chair to do it. And I felt that during the pandemic. I felt like I had something to say and I didn't know if it was gonna be good. I knew I wanted to write it for Florence because I was in awe of her talent. And so I just sat down during the pandemic and some of it came fast and easy and some of it didn't.

But that's what it is. It's showing up. It's the war of art story. It's putting your butt in the chair. I can procrastinate like anybody. And I look back and at years of procrastination, I directed a big studio comedy called Going In Style, which was fun.

You know, it was fun to have a budget and it was fun to direct, you know, Michael Caine and Morgan Freeman and Alan Arkin, but, and it was awesome. I would do a big fun studio comedy again. It's just, it wasn't, it certainly wasn't me. It wasn't authentically something from my brain and my heart. So, it's- It's commerce and art. I find it very hard.

The tension between those two things, right? I don't wanna say I find it hard because that feels like it's justifying it and speaking into existence and words have power. So I just want to, let me just say that I have in the past done everything I possibly can to procrastinate. And I aspire going forward to be more disciplined with putting my butt in the chair. Right. So when you get the call, like, hey, we'd love for you to come down and direct this episode of Ted Lasso or this episode of Shrinking. You can arrive on set and you get to work

with like these amazing actors and bring your lens, your specific unique creativity to that process and kind of nudge it in the direction of your sensibility a little bit, but these are big machines. Yeah. But they pay well and it's great. And you're like, look at my career, I'm doing good.

But ultimately in the way that like this podcast is a distraction from me writing another book, those things are distractions from you being the writer director who creates your own movies from- Well, I wouldn't use Lasso and Shrinking as examples because first of all, they're very short commitments relative. It's basically a six day shoot and a two week prep

for a half hour episode of television. Right, but that's three weeks of like, I don't really have to sit down and write. No, but it's very- Because I'm doing this other thing. I do find it very fulfilling. I don't wanna, I'm not gonna just be a director for hire. First of all, in the case of Lasso,

it was episode two, the case of Lasso, I was, it was, it was episode two, the episode of the biscuits. It was, it was a really amazing opportunity to help set the whole tone of the show. So I was really honored that I got that slot. Cause it was episode two of Ted Lasso kind of introduces the audience to like,

oh, this is also going to break your heart, this show. And then my episode of shrinking, which just aired was also sort of a seminal episode of, of season one. So for me, oh, this is also gonna break your heart, this show. And then my episode of Shrinking, which just aired, was also sort of a seminal episode of season one. So for me, I really love doing it. I think that those can coexist. It's really what I'm talking about is,

you know, being on the internet, taking up 10 hobbies, doing things that are anything to distract from what I feel like I should be doing, which is writing films. And also keep in mind when you write a film, it's then a huge process to try and get it made. Then you shoot it and you cut it.

Then you have to wait, in this case, I waited so long for it to finally come out and it's finally coming out on March 24th. Right, because you finished this thing, yeah, as you mentioned, like a year and a half ago or something like that. Yeah, so this is by my point is there's a lot of downtime. That A, yes, my first priority,

I believe if I'm being true to myself, should be writing. But in terms of, I don't wanna go direct TV I don't believe in, but in terms of directing things that are my taste and that I love, I enjoy doing that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it is creatively nourishing. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I enjoy doing that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it is creatively nourishing.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I'm getting to make Harrison Ford, helping him be his hilarious self. It's crazy. I've only watched the first episode of Shrinking. So you're like episode eight or something like that. I'm episode eight, but it's really, I gotta tell you, I know I'm biased,

but I'm only a little biased because all I did was direct episode eight. I have no connection to the show other than that. And the show is wonderful. And I think you'll really like it, Rich, because it overlaps with a lot of things that I think you're interested in. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

The mental health discussion. Yeah. It is funny to see Harrison Ford in a comedy. He's hilarious. And what's crazy about that guy is that I thought he was like this sort of, you know, kind of crusty rascal who didn't really wanna work anymore

and was sort of sailing off into the sunset. And suddenly he's in like everything. Guy's like working more than he's ever worked in his entire life. I think he loves working. I think he loves flying and he loves working. He loves flying, but gotta keep him out of that plane and crashing onto golf courses.

Well, in his defense, that's a glass half full, glass half empty conversation. I would say he lost an engine in a plane and successfully landed on a golf course. Yeah, I have a friend who's in, you're a pilot, right? So I have a friend, a good friend who's a pilot and he was flying over the desert

just a couple of weeks ago and had an engine failure and had to land on a, this is something that happens when you fly those little planes, right? People make jokes about Harrison Ford flying. And I'm like, the guy landed a plane on a golf course. How about applaud him? Right.

But you must have like those moments of, is this real? Like, you know, Harrison, it's crazy, right? Yeah, especially when he says my name, that one's really trippy. Because there's still people I geek out about. And when Harrison first got to know him, I don't think he knew my name, but then when he learned my name

and was calling me by my name, the little kid in me was pretty good. So over the years, you've worked with De Niro, like Tommy Lee Jones, right? Michael Caine, like some of the greats, right? Like what do you learn from, like what makes those people so good? Are there commonalities?

Are there themes across these people that we revere for this thing that they do that we can learn from? I think courage, real courage to go all out without a net and trust that the filmmaker is going to be their safety net and make sure that it works. I would say all of those people show up and are present and go all out. And sometimes even them, these legends, sometimes it's too much. Sometimes it's too little. Sometimes it's not right. That's one of the things I really learned is it's not always, even the geniuses, it's not always right, but they're trying things and they're playing and they're exploring and they're looking for it. Just like a painter who keeps painting over their painting, they're hunting for

it and with real courage. So I think that's one thing I've really taken from the great masters I've had a chance to work with. And as the director, your job is just to kind of like calibrate those choices and kind of get them in the line, in the kind of lane of the tone of the film. Absolutely, and it depends on the actor. Some will, I've worked with some, I won't say specific names, but I worked with one legend who'd do one take like right in the zone where I wanted it.

And then he'd do one minuscule and then who'd do one take like right in the zone where I wanted it. And then he'd do one minuscule. And then he'd do one huge. And you were like, what the fuck is that? Yeah, he's giving you choices. But he's, not as he gave me choices, but he's kind of playing himself and trying, I mean, playing with it himself to try and figure out what's right.

And then there are other great masters who were like, there was one take. That was it. I know I'm me. That was great, right? And you're like were like, there was one take. That was it. I know I'm me. That was great, right? And you're like, whoa, whoa, slow down. Yeah. And then you as the director have to be able to like,

have a hard conversation with somebody that- You have to have balls. Am I really gonna like, you know, step up to this dude? Do you know how many times in a trailer, Rich, I have given myself pep talks in the mirror of a trailer being like, you have to have balls. Right. Like whether it was acting with De Niro,

I was his co-star. This movie hasn't come out yet, but it's a comedy with De Niro and I'm his co-star. And I was like, this is the moment you've been waiting for. If you are a wimp in this scene and don't go all out and don't go toe to toe with De Niro, you know, I had this scene where I'm screaming at him and it's a, it's a comedy, but it's, I'm screaming at him. And the same thing with Morgan Freeman. It's like, if Morgan's over it

and you haven't gotten it, you have to be brave. You have to not be a wimp. You have to not be intimidated. So I definitely give myself these pep talks in the mirror in the trailer. So I definitely give myself these pep talks in the mirror in the trailer. I can't even imagine, it's wild, man. When you're sitting down to write, like do you have a routine? Like, okay, these are the hours that I do it, or do you just strike when the inspiration hits?

Or, you know, how do you, like, I'm just thinking about like the conversation that I had with Robert McKee, like everything's structured. So do you have characters? You start with character. Do you start with plot? Like, how do you figure out these stories? I really want to take Robert McKee's class, by the way,

because I've never written. He's done now though. I know, but there's a video. He should do a masterclass. By the way, after your, he should do a masterclass. But after your podcast with him, I went on his site and there is something in April. Maybe it's prere-recorded.

I don't know. But it's definitely virtual. It's not like... But I really... Even though he bummed me out a lot of his stuff instead. When he said film is going to be like ballet. I think I texted you. Yeah, you were like, ballet? I was like, Rich. I was like, I texted... It's all up to you, though. Like, if a good person succeeds, then there's hope. Zach. Well, I'm trying. I hope people go. Please don't make the theatrical experience like ballet.

Yeah. That's what Robert McKee said. But I've never written like that. I think that that's very helpful to a lot of people. And I actually would love to take a class because I've never had a class like that. And I think I would get a lot out of it. But it's not the way I write at all because I have to see, I've never had a class like that. And I think I would get a lot out of it,

but it's not the way I write at all, because I have to see, I kind of see the way I write. And I don't know if this is unique to me or maybe other actor writers write like this, but I kind of improvise the scenes out loud to myself. And then I write them as I go. So I kind of get into character as each person in the scene and then improvise the conversation and then write as I go.

So you're writing dialogue from the get-go as opposed to just conceptualizing like the arc of a story and figuring out who these people are and what they want and what the obstacles are. Now in the macro, I'll have an idea of, I'm gonna start this thing. And I think the beginning is this and the middle is this. And then it'll get to there.

I have a GPS point set, if you will. But I don't- Do you know the ending? Not always. In Garden State, I completely changed the ending. I mean, Tarantino talks about that. He's like, I just keep going. And then I completely changed the ending. I mean, Tarantino talks about that. He's like, I just keep going. And then I figure out the ending

because I'm just following these people and what they would do next. I agree with that school of thought from that great master. I really kind of write a scene and when it works, and again, I have a vague idea where I wanna go, but when it works, I go, well, then what would happen? Now, I'm not always ready to write that scene. I might go, oh, what's probably going to happen

is their next interior cafe, so-and-so and so-and-so, we're going to have an argument. I might just write that and not be ready to write that dialogue. But then I'll go, and then what would happen? Well, she's going to have to go confront her father. I'm ready to write that one. I have some ideas for that one.

So that one, I'll just do a messy first, you know, like throwing paint up on the canvas. It's not always all great, but it's just blah. Let yourself be bad and get it out there. Because if you're not sitting there doing that, you need to get this stuff out. So that all of a sudden you're gonna write, you know, some scenes in Garden State

were just first passes. I never touched them again because I was in a good flow state and something really meaningful came out. I was in a good flow state and something really meaningful came out. Same thing with a good person. But then of course, of course, there's tons of scenes you toss and you're like, I don't agree with what Robert McKee said. He was saying that like 90% of it he throws away. I definitely don't do that. Yeah. What was interesting in watching a good person was that there were multiple occasions where, you know,

the characters arrive at a certain point and there's a very kind of predictable thing that you're primed to expect to happen because you've seen it in movies before, right? And then, and then you would make a different choice. Like it would be like, oh, this is where this is, this person's going to do this. And then actually they do this other thing and you're like, oh, this is where this is, this person's gonna do this. And then actually they do this other thing and you're like, oh, wow. Yeah, okay, we're gonna go in a different, we're gonna go somewhere new with this thing that defies like that trope.

Well, that's the highest comment you can give me. Thank you. I think that even as a writer, you find yourself going, we've all seen so many movies, right? So your brain starts to go here. And you can't help it because we're all conditioned from watching,

you know, 47 years or whatever, how old you are of movies. And there's certain things about those tropes. They're tropes because there's aspects of them that work, right? And we were chatting before, like when the person is sitting in the AA meeting, like this is the moment for exposition.

Like you kind of need that or like that serves a purpose, right? But even in the- But how do you do something different with that? But also without giving any spoilers, the way I do it is it might be a time, AA share might be a good moment for exposition, but it's also a moment to throw a fucking loop

at the audience and do a reveal that they're certainly not expecting, which is what happens. Yeah, there's a bunch of those in there. But there are certain things that, you know, one thing about the Robert McKee thing that I really do believe and follow is that everything you've ever watched

at 30 minutes in, we enter the new world. Because this is something that audiences are completely conditioned to expect. And if you can, any movie you're watching, I mean, obviously there's exceptions, but 99% of films that you watch, at 30 minutes in, we enter the new thing. So the first 30 minutes have been setting up,

this is the way things are. This is the status quo. There's an inciting incident. So the first 30 minutes have been setting up, this is the way things are, this is the status quo. There's an inciting incident. Build the world. And then at 30 minutes in, especially a studio movie, you can check your watch, it'll be 30 minutes. The new thing begins. The inciting incident is usually at like 10 minutes, right?

That's all, that can vary. But one thing's for certain, they set off on the new thing at 30 minutes. Right. And that's an example of something that if you go and test a film and you're not doing that, an audience won't know exactly how to articulate it, but they will say like, it felt slow.

And what they're saying is, you didn't start the new thing at 30 minutes because everything I've ever watched starts the new thing at 30 minutes. So you have this unconscious expectation. And if that's not met, you feel like, oh, this isn't working, but you don't even know, like the average person doesn't even really quite know why.

It's kind of like song structure. You know, when like, like it's gonna have a bridge, it's gonna do verse, chorus, verse, chorus, verse, chorus, bridge, verse, chorus, or something like that. I'm not a songwriter, so I don't know, but audiences, like listeners know that that's how most songs are. Right.

And I think audiences know like, you know, the hero's journey. Sure. General sense of the traditional arc of a film. So you have to, you don't have to do anything, but people are conditioned to be used to some rough form of that. Yeah, it's in saying like, you don't have to do that.

Like it reminds me of adaptation, like the sort of internal tension and battle between the identical twins, which of course it's a multiple personality movie, right? Like Charlie Kaufman is at war with himself because on the one hand, and McKee said this from his experience with him, he wants to be the artist, but he also wants to write the blockbuster himself because on the one hand, and McKee said this from his experience with him, he wants to be the artist,

but he also wants to write the blockbuster. To write the blockbuster, you have to follow this sort of semi-formulaic thing where you're meeting these expectations. But how do you express and explore art within that? And it's those two things butting up against each other. And when you find that right, when you can make those things work together is when you create something, you know, kind of amazing and unique.

Yeah. Like adaptation. Right. The rare thing that is both artful and accessible enough for enough people to justify being in the theater is the sweet spot, right? Because so many of these films that are awardsy or really boutique, a niche audience, they aren't necessarily accessible to enough people in 2023 to justify it being in theatrical experience because it's not commercial enough. Yeah, and it's a weird conundrum because there's

never been more avenues and opportunities for filmmakers with the streamers, right? There's just so much content out there and so much creativity that it's almost challenging as a consumer, like, what do I watch next? Like, there's a lot of amazing shit out there. And yet the funnel towards like a theatrical release has never been narrower. It's very, very hard to get a theatrical release these days, particularly for something that's not spectacle. Another thing I got out of your Seth Godin episode was his thing about, you have to give the audiences the why.

Why go to the theater for this? It's obvious when it's spectacle, oh, I wanna see that on a big screen. Or if it's The Whale with Brendan Fraser, the why is, oh, I'm excited for Brendan Fraser's comeback. I root for Brendan Fraser. I wanna go see that. And I think the why for a good person is that not only is it a really special thing

to see this extraordinary ingenue, Florence Pugh, go toe-to-toe with this legend, Morgan Freeman, but I really believe, and it's probably because of my love of the theater. I still go to the theater in New York all the time, but there's something that is very lost seeing something emotional and immersive alone at home. There's something really beautiful about sharing that experience with strangers seeing something emotional and immersive alone at home.

There's something really beautiful about sharing that experience with strangers in a room. And the laughter that happens, the pin drop silence that we experience, the sniffles we hear when there's an emotional moment, I still really long for that experience. And I hope there's enough people that still do because it certainly is rare and rare these days. Yeah, well, I was not prepared to be emotional,

but it did, I mean, it cuts close to home because of my own, it's very different from my story, but it explores certain terrain that I'm familiar with. And I found myself definitely emotional watching it. And I think there is something about that shared experience that is special. And I think the power in it, not to kind of like harp on this again,

but the power in it for me is that, yes, there's an arc and there's a three act structure and all of that, but it's not all tied up in a nice little bow. Like it really does show you like how gnarly and messy and confusing this process of grappling with grief and, and, you know, just, just how fucking hard it is to be a human and to come to terms with like difficult emotions that all of us face.

Like we may not all be in the extreme situation of being in a car accident or having an opioid addiction or whatever it is, but you don't get out of this life alive. And we all face fucking crazy bullshit and obstacles. Like life doesn't go the way that we plan it to go, which is really the narrative of the show. It's like, there's kind of a beautiful sort of trajectory lined up for these characters. And then everything goes sideways,

goes haywire. And I think most people like experience some version of that in their lives and then have to grapple with how to get right with themselves, make peace with it and move forward in a healthy way. Absolutely. And we don't do this elegantly. Like this is not a clean process for anybody.

And I feel like the movie, you know, appreciated that nuance of the human condition. Well, thank you very much. And I wanted the audience to see themselves in the characters. Like you just said very articulately, they're not necessarily going to have the horror of a fatal car accident, or perhaps they don't know someone battling an opioid addiction. But I wrote it, I attended to write it in such a way that people would see their own selves in the film, whether it's, whatever their lowest point is.

The film is about standing back up. The film is about the drive and the hope to continue after a really dark time. And that for you, that could be a divorce or it could be a depression or it could be losing your job or it could be whatever, insert your low point here. It's really, the film is really a discussion of the human capability to stand back up with community,

with friendship, with love, the ability to go on and still have hope. Yeah, you mentioned, you know, beautifully put, you mentioned that you're not a songwriter, but you do have this, you know, uncanny facility for knowing exactly the right needle drop at exactly the right moment, right? Like you could have had a very successful career

as a music supervisor, you know how to, you know, kind of find the right music to help tell your stories. Thank you. And, you know, this is, you've never been more, you know, successfully exemplified than in Garden State. Like you basically like put the shins on the map. You create this soundtrack album from that experience.

You go, you win a Grammy, which is nuts. Cause like, I'm sure it didn't even occur to you. And it went platinum. It went platinum too. By the way, here's the best part. Well, there's two parts of the story. One is that I idolized Quentin Tarantino and I only met him like twice.

And the first time I met him was after I saw him at the Independent Spirit Awards after I'd beaten him for the Grammy for original soundtrack. That's unbelievable. And he comes up to me and he goes, you stole my fucking Grammy, man. And I was like, is he kidding? Is he serious?

I love this man. Please love me. And he kind of smiled and he was taking the piss as the English say. But that was really surreal because the idea that I would win a trophy over Quentin Tarantino. Was that like for which?

I think it was the second Kill Bill maybe. So it wasn't Pulp Fiction. I mean, Pulp Fiction is iconic. I mean, it's still that iconic, but also, you know, Garden State iconic for that soundtrack. The story of that is the ultimate don't give up story. All those songs were songs I was listening to at the time and songs I loved.

And I put them in, you know, The Avid, which is the computer we edit on for my cut. But there's not a single person in town that didn't tell me, you're not gonna get any of those songs. We have no money. For people that don't know, when you're cutting, you do this temp track

and like, these are the songs I'd like to have. We're never gonna get them, but like, this is the vibe I'm going for. And what happens is you get temp love. You fall in love with that song. But we had no money. We made that movie for two and a half million dollars. We didn't have money to license

all of these incredible songs. And I was told by anyone and everyone, you will never get those songs. You need to start replacing them. And in the spirit of being too young and not knowing what I didn't know, I was like, no, I'm gonna get them. I'm gonna get them.

I didn't know at the time, but I was manifesting, I was manifesting that there was no way I was not gonna get all of those songs. And I got every single one. And to what do you account that? Like, how did that? Just not taking no for an answer. Persistence.

Persistence, not getting stuck, not going into the fetal, I'm sure I went into the fetal position a couple of times, but not taking no for an answer. I remember, you know, for example, the Paul Simon people, Only Living Boy in New York, it was one of the hardest ones to get because it's probably the biggest,

most expensive in a normal world where you're paying full rate, probably the most expensive song on the album. And it was a hell no, hell no, hell no, hell no. And then I said, what if we got his manager into a screening room? And we just showed him the moment how it's used. And they were like, he's not going to come. And I go, let's just try. And the manager came with a few people and they sat in the screening room at CAA alone and they watched the movie. And at the time the Paul Simon song came on, I looked over and they were all swiping their eyes.

And they said, absolutely, we'll do it. Wow. And then cut to that whole summer, Paul Simon was on tour and he started playing Only Living Boy in New York and he never used to do it. Wow. And then cut to that whole summer, Paul Simon was on tour and he started playing Only Living Boy in New York and he never used to play it. And he was saying, you know, I never played this song anymore,

but there's this movie that came out called Garden State and he started playing Only Living Boy in New York on tour. That's gotta be such a crazy mind fuck. And that happened with every track. It was like- What else is on it? You have Nick Drake. There's so many incredible songs on it.

And, you know, little by little, the puzzle, once I got Coldplay, and then once I got Nick Drake, and then once I got Paul Simon, other people that were smaller artists started saying, like, oh, well, if the cool kids are doing it, we'll do it. And we figured out a deal that no one ever thought they'd see money

from, but was a back-end deal where in a world where someone buys this soundtrack, you'd make money thinking like, ha ha, that's never gonna happen, but thank you for loaning us your song at a rate we can afford. And then the thing goes on to be platinum and they all made lots of money off of it.

Did that lead to people contacting you simply to like music supervise their movies or to consult on the music? I did have a deal. It's probably the only deal like this in the history of deals. But I was, I starred in a movie called The Last Kiss. Yeah.

That I didn't direct. Some people think I directed that movie, but Tony Goldman, the actor director did. Paul Haggis wrote that. Paul Haggis wrote the screenplay. And I, my deal was to star and do the soundtrack. That was my deal. Yeah, that's very unique.

I don't know if anyone's ever had that deal before, but that was my deal. So you're like, I'll do it, but I also, I have to do the music also. Well, I was thrilled to do it. I really loved the script. It was an adaptation of a very, very popular Italian film called L'Ultimo Baccio.

And I was thrilled to be in it. But I was so hot off the tails of Garden State that they said, hey, will you also do our soundtrack? Right. I was like, you have the golden touch. I was like, please. With the music. Yeah, that's cool.

So the Oscars are tonight. Like how do you, like when you cast your gaze on, you know, the movies that are being feted and the kind of movies that are getting made. Like, how do you think about the state of Hollywood? And is it headed towards that ballet situation that McKee talked about? I think the jury's still out.

We are watching it all change before our eyes. In the spirit of Seth Godin, audiences need a story as to why a particular film is worth making the trek to the theater. Cinephiles, of course, there's a group of cinephiles who will always go. Those are the people like the people who buy vinyl to listen to music.

But what is the story that beyond just the category of, oh, it's a giant spectacle, you need to see it on the big screen, the jury is still out on whether films will still be released theatrically that are not in that category. And I think that the jury is out on an explanation as to why the general public, the public at large,

should care about this art form. Yeah. And I think it becomes harder for that person to care when the choices they're being offered are just amusement park rides versus, you know, kind of challenging narratives. Well, I'm trying to help, Rich. Yeah, I know.

This is why you're here today. Like I'm doing, help me help you, Zach. A good person. I'm here- A good person, March 24th. There you go, there you go. But at the same time, like I'm on these streamers and I'm like seeing, I just, I'm so nourished by, you know, all different kinds of storytelling formats

that aren't necessarily the kind, you know, like the sort of advent of the limited series. Like watching, like, I don't know, crime stories set in Iceland and like all this stuff that's opened up to me. I know, but it's a separate experience. It is, that's a different thing. What I want to savor,

and what I hope Mr. McKee is wrong about it becoming ballet, is that there is just a very sacred experience of going into a theatrical house and sitting with strangers and watching a piece of art. And also this societal agreement for most people that we turn off our phones for two hours and immerse ourselves in a story. And at home we're pausing and we're checking our phone

and we're saying, did you feed the dog? And all of this stuff that is not immersing yourself in a story. Now, again, I'm a theater lover and goer. So I had that experience with live theater, which is for the community of people that are into that. We know that, but for the cinematic experience, I pray that that doesn't go away

because I find it very, very special and not something that's akin to watching your favorite streaming program. It is fully immersive and there's something magical about being around other people experiencing the same thing. Yeah, amen to that. But we need more good movies in the pipeline. I'm doing all I can.

I know you are. It's funny, because when I was, the movie's not out, so I got like a link to see a screener and then in the middle, like I snapped a little photo and I sent it to you. And you're like, focus, what are you doing? Like, don't, you're being the guy. I know, I was like, then I felt terrible.

Right, I was like, I apologized. You're being the guy who's on his phone. Yeah. But you know why? You were at home. Yes. Yeah, I wouldn't have done that in a theater. Of course you wouldn't have.

That's true. And I just, I submit, you're gonna get way more lost in the theater and into a story. I agree. For the aspiring writer, creator, filmmaker who's listening to this, what is the kind of inspiration or the advice that you can give that person

who's embarking upon a career what is the kind of inspiration or the advice that you can give that person who's embarking upon a career or thinking about exploring storytelling as a lifestyle, as a life. Well, a famous writer, I forgot who it is, said being a writer is signing up to have homework for the rest of your life. Yeah, is that Lawrence Kasdan?

I think it's Lawrence Kasdan. Which I think is very accurate. Or having a podcast. It's pretty good for having homework all the time. But a podcast is communal. Yeah, that's true. A podcast, you have friends, you have crew members, you have this beautiful studio.

Writing is sitting alone at a blinking cursor, telling yourself you suck. It's hard. That's why I would tell people. I won't be as, try and scare anyone away from it, but know that I'm this deep into it and I battle procrastination, I battle working. So I would say develop very early on.

I mean, you've had some of these amazing people on your podcast. What's the name of the guy who wrote War of Art? Steven Pressfield. Yeah, Steven Pressfield and the like. You have to develop a system very early on, something I never did, that is fail safe for you working and producing content.

And that is in 2023, that is very much turning off your wifi and getting your phone out of the room. There are so many distractions. And then I believe with Mr. Pressfield, it's about putting your butt in the chair and not being afraid to not know what it is today, but getting in the chair and showing up.

Mm-hmm. to not know what it is today, but getting in the chair and showing up. But it's like running with an elephant on your back if you're trying to do it with your phone in your hand. Are you able to take that sensibility, that energy and get right back into it? Like in that press field thing, like as soon as you lock it, you're onto the next. For the first time in my life, I'm like halfway through a new screenplay now.

But that's with a lot of, that's with maturity and also really coaching myself and working with people, my therapist in particular, who's a cognitive behaviorist, was just very, very valuable to me of developing systems in particular, who's a cognitive behaviorist, was just very, very valuable to me,

of developing systems that support you not failing. So what would be an example of that? Making commitments to produce pages to people, even he, I mean, I have people I work with in terms of like who I get thoughts on my writing, but even my therapist, even if he was not gonna read them, he will say like, just external accountability. So how many pages are you gonna send me by Friday?

So that's just one example of a system that's in place. I'm committed to turning in work. I have this light board thing. I think I sent you a link to it that really helps me. It's just this, and you can literally do this with a paper calendar and do stickers on it. Like when you're potty training your kid,

it's a matter of like giving yourself a going for a streak. That is to say you only get a sticker or you light the thing up. My therapist actually said you can do it with a light. He's with his clients have done it with a light bright before. But the point is you're only, you wanna go for a streak, just like I know people who are doing,

who are in a program and going for sobriety wanna streak. It is how many days can I write in a row? Or how many days will I commit to someone, whether it be my partner or myself or whomever, your therapist, that I will write Monday through Friday for a minimum of four hours a day. And when I don't, I've dropped my streak.

And there's something about a streak that's very powerful. Yeah, it's an interesting thing, like how reptilian the human brain is, but momentum is real. And once you bank a few days and you got a little bit of energy behind it, and you're gonna put that little light bulb in the thing, you're like, that's enough to get you to keep going.

I was telling you this when we met that I was working on taking a break from alcohol and that I found that if I printed a paper calendar and literally I ordered stickers on Amazon and I would just, when I didn't drink that day, I would put a sticker on the calendar and it worked for me. I was like, I'm not gonna to not get my, my, my. I got to get my sticker.

I want my fucking sticker. I'm not going to, I don't even want this glass of wine. I want my sticker. Oh my God. It's like, I don't know whether to be encouraged by that or just think humanity is doomed, you know? Well, I think it's, I don't know, you say it's reptilian, but I think, I don't know. I guess my therapist says it best

is that there's a lot of power in a streak. Yeah. I know that that's- For sure. That there's, it's empowering to say, I'm not gonna fuck up now. Yeah, you gotta respect the momentum. Yeah.

And protect it, you know, and create boundaries around it. I love that your episode, I forgot the name of the guy who did One Year No Beer. Oh, Andy Romage. Yeah, that was an amazing episode. So that was a lot of things he said too with regard to alcohol and finding that space

for people that don't necessarily think they need to work a program, think they can probably do it on their own, but also wanna rethink their attitude towards alcohol consumption. I thought that was, he talks about streaks and that's the whole idea behind it is just like, do 28 days, do 90 days. And I found that incredibly empowering.

Yeah, you can always go back to what you were doing before. And I think what's cool about that movement that Andy helped create is, like you said, there's a lot of people out there that wouldn't classify themselves as alcoholics, but get to a certain age, like, hey, do I really need to be hung over today? Like, why do I, you know, go out and binge every other weekend or whatever

it is? But when you're in a culture where that's just the thing that you do, it can be difficult for social reasons to opt out of that and to have like a community of people to support you in finding a different way. And then, you know, experiencing what it's like to be alcohol free for perhaps the first time and seeing how much better you feel and how more present you are in your life and how more productive you are.

I'm doing it. I will be honest and tell you that I'm doing it. I'm taking on his challenge. Nice. And I have you to thank, man. I really thank you so much for bringing, I'm sure there's other people listening. And if you haven't, you have to go listen to that episode.

I never felt, I never saw anything in my life that spoke so directly to me and my relationship with alcohol because I never felt like, I would certainly go to AA if I felt I needed to, and maybe we'll make that decision one day, but I just felt that episode was so, and his work is so genius because it hits a sliver of the population that hadn't necessarily

been addressed before, which is like, why do I, why am I doing this habit? And for people that do have the power to just, to not work a program and just try and say no. What would my life be like without it? So that was very, very, very powerful to me. And I'm aiming to go six months and see what happens, but I feel fucking great.

That's awesome, man. Well, you're here today for me to help you get the word out about your movie, but I feel like I'm getting more out of this from you promoting this podcast. No, I'm promoting your show. I was promoting it in London. Including your joke of like, yeah, I just got back from the United Kingdom

promoting your podcast. Well, I was in the UK. Chris Evans. I was on the Chris Evans show, and I didn't even know that he knew you, but we started talking about, you know, anyway. I appreciate it, man. I've said enough, Rich. Yeah. But you have made a big difference in my life.

And I can imagine for so many people listening, they feel the same way. Well, it's incredible to hear that. And I'm working on just receiving and so I'll say thank you. But it is amazing and a bit surreal as somebody who has followed your work for a very long time and has a ton of respect for the art that you share with the world. And I couldn't be more excited about this new movie. Like I said to you, it's beautifully rendered and I think everybody should go out and check it out. Yes, thank you.

I'm excited for you to have that experience of having a movie back in the theaters after a very long time. Thank you. It's a pretty cool and very special experience and I hope that you can navigate it with presence and with gratitude and not get caught up in all those externalities that you can't control

because irrespective of how it does or doesn't do, you should be very proud of what you created. Thank you, Rich. Yeah, and it was a pleasure to have you here today. And you know, yeah, man, this was super cool. Thank you. So thank you. We should probably tell people how to find tickets and all that kind of stuff, right?

Yeah, Fandango is the most popular way you can find tickets on Fandango. And just in the US or is it internet? In the UK and US. All right, cool, so check it out. You can get tickets on Fandango if you're in the United States or in the UK. And first weekend, super important.

You gotta get out there right away. Yeah, can't wait around. Please check it out this weekend, everybody. I really appreciate it out there right away. Can't wait around. Please check it out this weekend, everybody. I really appreciate it. All right, cheers. Thanks. Thanks, Zach. That's it for today.

Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guest, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com, where you can find the entire podcast archive, as well as podcast merch, my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change in the Plant Power Way, as well as the Plant Power Meal Planner at meals.richroll.com. If you'd like to support the podcast,

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love the support see you back here soon peace plants namaste Love the support. See you back here soon. Peace. Plants. Namaste. Thank you.