The Right Time with Bomani Jones - Bob Costas on Michael Jordan Memories, The Magic of “NBA on NBC”, O.J.’s Bronco Chase | 03.24

Episode Date: March 24, 2026

Bob Costas joins Bomani Jones to discuss his new role on "The NBA on NBC". Bob tells Bomani incredible stories about Pat Riley, Michael Jordan, Shaquille O'Neal, Bill Walton, O.J.Simpson, Ahmad Rashad, and much more! Later, Bob explains why the NBA on NBA did things differently than its competitors and why he believes that still resonates with fans today. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the right time, A Wave Original. My name is Beaumani Jones. Thanks for listening wherever you get your podcast. Thanks for watching us on YouTube. Subscribe, like, rate us, review us, give us five stars. You only give us four stars. I'm inclined to believe you are a hater. We are on our latest edition of Time Machine Tuesday

and following up our six-part series on hip-hop in the year 1996. We decided to call the biggest rap fan we knew, Bob Costas. Well, you know, Bo, don't, take this lightly. I have some hip-hop cred, as you may be aware, to my own knowledge, and it may be more. I've been name-checked at least five or six times in hip-hop tracks, the most famous of which, or infamous, is ludicrous. I'd be rolling torpedoes, get blunted with Rostas, and for a hefty fee on your record, like Bob Costas. What could be better than that? Now, the question is, which part was the Bob Costa's reference?

Was it about the on the record part or the hefty fee? The on the record part showed that he was watching me on HBO. But the lyrics of that track are unbelievable. I own so many uniforms. I'm a throwback mess. I hit the dry cleaner and get a full cord press, which sounds different when I say it than when he says it. I love that you really studied this.

I have deeply. This is my favorite thing. For those of you don't know, I had the good pleasure of working with Bob on back on the record with Bob Costas. There's also the part of him

being the preeminent sports broadcaster of his generation, but we have him on now to talk specifically about the NBA on NBC. And I was a little surprised as someone who doesn't, I think about the games,

I think about the broadcast, I don't think about the companies nearly as much. But once the deal was signed for the NBA, to come back around and the idea that the NBA was coming back to NBC. There was a legitimate and palpable excitement that could be found from fans on just the idea of the NBA on NBC. On the John Tess record, you know, the John Tess song coming back around, the theme and everything else.

And it got here and it's been a really great presentation, I think, but I'm curious for you. Were you surprised that people were that invested in the brand of the NBA on NBC after it had been gone for over 20 years? Wasn't surprised at all. somewhat surprised by the degree of that attachment and the celebration of it coming back. Look, we benefited from an incredible era. We had all six of the Bulls championships with Jordan. And at the end, the last three years of the NBA on NBC is Kobe and Shaq and their three consecutive championships. So we had a perfect set of circumstances to work with.

But I also think being as objective as I can, that while CBS did a great job during primarily the magic and bird era, and Dr. Jay was in there too, you know, and Dick Stockton calling the games. They did a very, very good job, Brent Musburger as well. But I think that it reached a pinnacle in terms of presentation with the NBA and NBC. Marv Albert calling most of those games. I did some of it. Tom Hammond did it with Bill Walton and Snapper Jones, and that was a great trio, but also the overall production values, Tesh's Roundball Rock, and the idea that almost every big game, at least, began with a dramatic narrative that wasn't hype, it was just kind of accentuating what was already there and making it, framing it and making it more dramatic. And I think people associate the NBA with that era.

And what we've done now, I think, has been close to pitch perfect. We've acknowledged it, but we haven't leaned into it too heavily. And that's why I'm there. You know, do some of the opening narratives to come on, maybe tongue and cheek, acknowledge that it's been a while, set the stage, maybe do the occasional interview. And the first thing, you know, do the first time that I was on on this new iteration of the NBA and NBC, that's what I said. Occasionally we'll flash back to some of the great moments. We've got John Tetch's Roundball Rock. But for the most part, this is a new generation of teams, a new generation of stars,

and a new generation of broadcasters. So here's Maria Taylor. I think that's the way we're going to play it. Yeah. And I want to put a pin on the idea of the narrative. We're going to talk about that part a little bit later. But you mentioned CBS, who I believe had the contract for 17 years before NBC had it. And so my first memories of watching the NBA are with Dick Stockton on the call.

I think Tommy Hinesson was still doing color. And then it came to be my guy, Hubey, my favorite color commentator of all time. And I don't think I appreciated at the time just because, I mean, I was only so old so sophisticated a consumer of media. But now that I look back on it, it really was a shift in the way that the game was presented from what CBS was doing to what NBC had done. Now, CBS, of course, they had the greatest robbery that we've had in the history of basketball. basketball, magic bird, you know, through the 1980s, with a drop-in of Dr. Jay and Moses Malone

and the Sixers, whom we can't forget during that time period. But then when we get to, it's the beginning of the Jordan era. But also, it felt different. And one part of it feeling different, as I recalled, is you were doing the studio show for the first run. And the first season was you and Pat Riley, because Riley had resigned with the Lakers. And I will always remember this. You guys having a shooting contest in the studio that went through. throughout the year and the bet was the loser had to wear his hair like the winner, which man, Pat Riley tried to get his hair not to go straight backward anymore and he could not do it. It was impossible at that point in his life. Yeah, it had been trained to stay back

there. So it wasn't quite as slick as whatever he put into it. You know, Michael Douglas said that his character, what the heck was the movie I'm thinking of? Gordon Gecko and Wall Street. Wall Street. That's right. That's right. The Gordon Gecko character was modeled after Pat Riley's look because Douglas was and is a basketball fan. And that was famous. That was iconic. His look, the suits, the collar, the tiny knot and the tie. And of course, he could pull it off perfectly. So that was what was iconic about it. And the first day in the studio, I didn't even know until I walked in there for the first rehearsal, that they'd have a hoop behind us. And so I just said spontaneously toward the end of the first show. Somebody got a ball. Let's take a shot every show,

and then we'll see who comes out ahead at the end. And we didn't stage it this way, but we were dead even through the Western Conference and both conference championships. And then we went on the road to Chicago for the opening of Lakers Bulls in the final. And we shot best of 10 to break the tie with John Paxson rebounding for us. And I made at least nine. And he made, like seven. And so, so I won. So before game two, he had to take the gunk out of his hair. And did you have one shot you took in your driveway in St. Louis with Dan Dierdorf? You are all over this. Yes, it was Christmas Day. And Dick Ebersoll, who was always great to me, my kids were little then. He said, you know, stay in St. Louis, have Christmas with your kids.

But I had a hoop in the driveway. And Dan Dirdorf lived not far away. So I called him and said, why don't you come over and rebound for me? And Riley made his shot. It was interesting. Chicago. He was in Chicago. He made his shot from the foul line. And then I went second. Luckily, there wasn't too much wind. And we both hit. I think something that people, especially younger people now, may not be able to have a grassball on was, how famous Pat Riley was at this point? Because I think now we're at the place where he is viewed as an executive, but it's a significant coup. Pat Riley and I think like Pat Riley, Mike Shosheski and Bobby Knight really expanded the idea of what a basketball coach was in the zeitgeist in the 1980s. Like the CEO coach selling you,

going to talk to your in your boardroom on how to lead. That was Pat Riley. And that had to be a huge coup because none of us thought he wasn't going to be coaching the Lakers. But then he turned out, you know, turns up in the studio for NBC. Yeah, we were pretty sure that this was just a way station, that he'd be back coaching.

He was only in his 40s then, that he'd be back coaching at some point. And, of course, then he began talking to the Knicks, and it became kind of an open secret that he would soon be gone. But that one year really helped us. That gave us tremendous credibility. NBC didn't have. that much credibility with the NBA at the outset. And it was a very smart move to get Marv Albert

to call the games. He became almost very quickly the national voice of the NBA. He had been revered in New York because of the great Nick teams of the 70s and how much of a fixture he was in New York sports. At the very beginning, this is just a bit inside stuff, Bumani. David Stern and Ebersol asked me to be the lead play-by-play guy. And I said, I can do it, but Marv should be the guy. Plus, you don't want Riley in the studio where he's not comfortable yet without somebody that can take care of all the traffic. So I think it's the best use of our roster.

If I'm the host, then Marv is the play-by-play guy. And they agreed with that, and I think it turned out well. Well, Marv also got another guy who was in between coaching jobs, who was Mike Ritello. And the idea that Marv Albert just decided, we're going to make Mike Rattello the Z, not are we going to make him the czar of the television, I'm going to call him czar like it's his name.

Like, oh, czar. Like, there was always, like, it was tongue in cheek, but also self-aware of Marv Albert that he understood, that he sounded like Mara of Albert, full-on broadcaster at all times, but still kind of, it was still a regular person also in the presentation. Like, it's kind of hard to explain. But just say, I'm just going to call Mike Fratello, the czar of the Telestrator now.

And, you know, Fratello, all these years later, like on his Christmas cards or he's got hats, And it says the czar. I saw on a Christmas card. Happy holidays, Mike Fratello, aka the czar. Yeah, I know. I know you're the czar.

And you know what? You'll remember this. What Marv also did, and he did this with all of his partners. I remember him once on David Letterman and Letterman asked him about the fight doctor, Ferdy Picheko, and Mark goes, yes, Dave, not the sort of physician you'd want

at the bedside of a loved one. So he was always doing that to his partners. And so, oh, the circumstance that I was talking about was, you may remember this. Often on the on cameras, Marv would say some sarcastic thing about the Tsar. And what the Tsar would do would be he'd look away from Marv and back toward the camera, as if to silently say to the audience, do you see what I have to put up with? So one time in Portland during the finals in 92, Cookie Johnson had just had a baby. So Magic, who was part of the team for a little while,

Magic had missed like the first couple of games in Chicago, and now we're in Portland. So he returns, and I conclude the opening segment and say, think of the plight of Magic Johnson, leaving the bedside of new mother and child to spend quality time with Marv and the Tsar. And Marv didn't know what was coming. And he goes, yes, Bob. And in order to make magic feel at home, the Tsar will cry every 10 minutes. When he says that, the czar just goes like this. Like pleading with the audience.

Do you see what my life is like with this guy? He had just created an entirely new persona for Fitello. And Fertello was a person that people knew. Like he'd coached the Hawks for a very long time. Coaches had a kind of certain different level of fame. Now, Marr was very famous, right? Because he did so much for NBC sports. He was on Letterman.

He did football games. You know, he was well known going up until that point. but he just created a persona for Mike Fretelo. I don't even know if he, he's just like, you know what? You're really good with that Telestrator. It's like, yeah, he was. I think we'll stick with this. Yeah, it worked.

It did. Now, as I talk about this and as we go back and forth with this, there's an irreverence, I think, to the broadcast there. There's an irreverence to the way that Ahmad did sidelines. Amad, quietly, the most interesting man in the world. Like we had a lot here a few years ago. And it is amazing how, it is amazing the rages story. that Abar Rashid has on the world.

But him on sideline, I didn't realize until we talked to him on this show, he did not know Michael Jordan until they started doing, until NBC got the contract. Like people associate them like they were thickest thieves. And he's like, no, man, I just met him like at a charity gang right before we started to do this. But that became a defining relationship. Yeah, and now they're super close friends, play golf all the time. Here's the thing about Ahmad.

And I've always said this. He did not receive the credit he deserved. either on the football show and especially on basketball. A lot of, you know, then every newspaper had a sports media critic usually ran on Fridays and now all that stuff has migrated to the internet where anybody can say anything they want. But a lot of times they underrated him. And I would say, look, he's not there to be, to do what I do. This isn't 60 minutes.

Athletes gravitate toward a mod, not just because he was an athlete himself, a very, very good wide receiver in the NFL. And I think he finished third one. year in the Heisman trophy voting when he was an Oregon duck. Very good athlete, but there's just something about him. He has charisma. He has presence, but he's also very likable and genial. I took him to spring training once in St. Petersburg, and I was tight with all the Cardinals because I spent most of my adult life in St. Louis. Amad had never played much baseball. He grabbed a bat, took batting practice, and was hitting line drives. But Ozzy Smith, Vince Coleman, Whitey Herzog,

all these guys gravitated toward Amad because he has that star quality. And that is an indispensable asset to a broadcast. When people want to talk with a guy, when they're willing, it's not necessarily an interrogation. Like I said, it's not 60 minutes. But they're willing to come over right in the aftermath of a game and give him the time. That was a huge plus for NBC Sports. There was also a different era. And I think where Amad and a lot of those guys that generation don't get credit, I think,

for people who see the game the way it works now. That was the generation of where those guys were going and working internships at the local news station. Like, it wasn't like a mod could leave straight from playing and now you're on NBC. There was a path that was very similar to the path that everybody else in media took. Yeah, well, he was able to jump several of those steps,

A, because he was who he was, he had credibility as an athlete, he had star power, he looked great on camera, and it turned out that you have to be glib to some extent. You know, there are a lot of smart guys horned glib. He's both. He understood the assignment. He was comfortable on camera. And most important, other people were comfortable with him. Yeah. And you mentioned it earlier, it is great timing for NBC also that you got the first Michael Jordan championship.

Yeah. Yeah, that really helped. The first of three in a row. You know, there's something about him. And I've been asked this question. I know you have many times. And in fact, you were on the set when I put the question to Charles Barkley on the very first back on the record show. And he explained why he thought Jordan was greater than LeBron, which is not to say that LeBron isn't incredibly great. But the star power, the whole feeling about it and the idea that casual fans who don't know a pick and roll from a back cut wanted to watch Michael Jordan. He just transcended all of it. Yeah, like I think that's the, I was talking to like the idea about who do you take Jordan or LeBron? And the part that can't be erased is, hey, man, we were there for this other thing. It's hard to explain what it was

at the time. A replay is not going to do it. Like, it felt like time froze in game two of the 91 finals when he went up with one hand and down with the other. And I know you could put a million videos of other people doing it. I can't explain to people. It felt like the world stopped spinning in that moment. They had lost game one and then they're blowing the Lakers doors off in game two. And then that happens. And it was just like he made the world stop. And you know, you can factor in my little bias as a broadcaster. Very often the way things are appreciated and remembered is framed by a way it was called. And Marv's call was, oh, a spectacular move by Michael Jordan.

Now, those words are not extraordinary, but he said them in that Marv-Albert voice, and that punctuated it. If Al Michaels doesn't say, do you believe in miracles, yes, it's still a great upset. But it doesn't echo down the corridors of time the way it did. You think of Kirk Gibson's at bat, the pinch hit home run in 88. If it's not Vin Scully on the call, it's still great, but it's not as great. Yeah. Now, as all this is happening, working in the, you know, working for the broadcast, working for the company,

was there an awareness that you guys were doing something different? Eventually, pretty soon. You know, somewhere along the line in the first year, absolutely. Like, we got something good here. And we're going to lean into these various aspects. So I think if anything, it just got better. We weren't doing anything different than what we set out to do, but it just kept getting better.

We refined it. Yeah, and it keeps going. Like you say, you have three championships of Michael Jordan. And so while NBC is putting this together, what is the awareness level of, hey, the star of our story is Michael Jordan? Very much aware. And some sense of, uh-oh,

the golden goose has left when he had that memorable press conference. didn't announce at that time that he was going to play baseball, but that he was stepping away. Now, we did get, in the first season of his absence, in 94, we did get a seven-game final between the Rockets and the Knicks. It wasn't the most artistic final ever, but the games were all close, and it did go to a seventh game. And actually one of the most memorable opening narratives, a game seven with a soundtrack from the gladiator and shots of wilt walking out and bird and magic walking out and Willis Reed limping out for other game sevens. I think we kind of perfected that approach. Then in 95, when Michael came back in March of that year, but he wasn't

quite himself and they couldn't get to the finals, as I remember, the rocket swept shack and the magic. And that was the one real down point during that run. I guess maybe 99, which was the first of the Spurs championships, but there was a lockout, there was a truncated season, and the Knicks came from an eighth seed. It was exciting in New York, but not maybe to the rest of the country. Those would be the two, 95 and 99, that didn't live up to our fondest hopes, but the rest certainly did. Well, you mentioned the 94 finals. Did anything else happen? Yeah. OJ. and the Bronco Chase, game five, which was bizarre on. NBC because every other network, plus by then cable, CNN and everybody else, went to the Bronco

Chase live and stayed with it. But Dick Ebersoll had a very difficult decision to make. This is just a given NBA game. It's game five of the finals that's tied two games apiece in a big atmosphere at Madison Square Garden. So we were kind of shifting between the two. And it was my job to kind of pass the baton from Marv Albert to Tom Brokaw in the studio and then back to Marv. sometimes with a split screen. So it was unusual to put it mildly. Also, not just the biggest story in America, not just a football player.

He worked there. Yes. Like I think the part that can be easily forgotten was that was the day that OJ's television career ended. But he had been on NBC for quite a long time, up until that point. Bomani, there were people who were so shaken, parts of the crew,

make-up person who loved OJ. crying. Amad, who was mentioned in that what appeared to be suicide note that was read when it was announced, I think it was Robert Kardashian who read the note that it was announced that he was a fugitive and they were trying to locate him. Amad was mentioned, Marcus Allen and some other people mentioned in this suicide note. Amad was pacing around at Madison Square Garden trying to just pull himself together to go on the air. All of us knew him and all of us liked him. He was always really good company. And I've said this before, the kind of guy who would know the name of the kid who brought the newspapers in the coffee when you first got on the set, the kind of guy who always

got the joke that you wanted to go to dinner with and play golf with. You know, we didn't know about the other stuff, at least I didn't. The one thing that was known, and they put it to bed pretty quickly when he was hired in the early 90s, there was one police report of an incident on New Year's Eve a couple of years before, and both he and Nicole, the Unified Front, you know, it's just a little New Year's Eve thing, some drinking, it got out of hand, no big deal. That was the only thing that was known publicly. You know, subsequently other aspects came out about a history of domestic violence. But at that point, you know, just a few days after the murders, that's all we knew.

But we also knew this, just common sense. We didn't want to believe the worst. But an innocent man who has resources to mount the best possible defense and has goodwill with the public doesn't run, doesn't have 10 grand in cash in a bag with his passport. It just doesn't make sense. Yeah, no, it was because I was young enough to like be very aware of who O.J. Simpson was, but I did not get that that was like if Barry Sanders for, you know, for like my, even Barry Sanders, like, there's not even anybody that really fits.

And it's a television production. Hey, that guy, you know, was in that car right there. But we also have this basketball game that's going on. Like, he just worked at NBC. He worked at NBC sports. Like, this is in your operation. Absolutely. And he's, with all due respect to Barry Sanders, who I love personally, to the extent that

I knew him and his game. He was just a beautiful player to watch. But OJ was a national figure, either the first or among the very first African American athletes who broke through on commercials. Little old lady, go, O.J. Go for Hertz as he races through the airport. And he's in the naked gun movies. And he's funny as hell in the naked gun movies. He's like Michael Jordan.

He's a household name. Someone who doesn't know anything about football knew who OJ Simpson was and liked him. Right. And someone in line with the household name thing, I really hadn't thought so much about it until you mentioned it. The building of Shaquille O'Neal as a household name is also a very big part of the beginning of the early days of the NBA on NBC. Like I don't, there has not been a rookie who hit the league, not even LeBron James, because he

was 18. He wasn't as ready to play as Shaq was. And he instantly became a protagonist in the story that the NBA began to tell. Yeah. And LeBron's rookie year in the NBA is the first year after the NBA on NBC. But Dick Ebersoll, who co-created Saturday Night Live, he had a sense of televisionist theater. He had learned how to produce an Olympics from Rune Arledge. He knew that it was enough just to appeal to avid fans. You had to broaden it out, but at the same time serving those avid fans. Now, Jordan was handed to us. It was perfect. When Shaq came along, everyone saw the possibilities. When Kobe came along, everyone saw the possibilities, but we knew how to amplify those possibilities. We were hoping that they turned out to be as

great as they were. But certainly we were going to set the stage for that possibility. Coming up next, we're going to talk with Bob about moving down to do play by play and the idea of the importance of the narratives surrounding sports broadcast. Ever wanted to go to the NBA Finals? Where now's your chance, courtesy of fan duel. All you have to do is use your profit boost on an NBA future, and you'll be entered for a shot to win an NBA finals trip for two. NBA futures let you lock in your pick for who you think will go all the way. whether it's a team to win the championship or a conference title.

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Fanduel.com. Gambling problem. Call 1-800 gambler or visit RG-Helpsheelphor.com. Call 1-88-88-88-8-8-8-9-7-77-7-7-7 or or visit C-Gamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit Gamblinghelp.m.m.m.m. Or call 800-327-50 for 24-7 support in Massachusetts or call 18778-Hope-N-Y or text. NY in New York. All right, we are back with Bob Costas. I believe it was in 1997. You go from the studio, and now you're doing play-by-play for that. What was that transition for you?

Well, I had done a lot of basketball play-by-play, mostly on radio in my youth. I was the voice of the spirits of St. Louis for two years, the last two years of the ABA, and that's a podcast unto itself. and I did one season of the Chicago Bulls way before Jordan, 1979, 80, and I did the University of Missouri's games when they had very good teams in the late 70s and early 80s on the radio. So I had some background in it, but I was rusty. And Dick Ebersol, who always had an eye for stars,

looked around who's the best available person whose career has just ended. The answer to that was Isaiah Thomas. But Isaiah had no experience with all the kind of dynamics. He would have been better off initially in the studio than as the analyst because you had to master so many different moving parts. So at the beginning, the combination of me being a little rusty and Isaiah just kind of learning the ropes, it wasn't bad, but it wasn't as good as it could become. And one weekend, we're in Detroit and we're talking to Doug Collins, who's coaching the Pistons. And it becomes obvious to me that one way or another, he's going to quit, they're going to

fire him, something's going to happen, but he ain't going to be here much longer. And I called Dick Ebersoll that weekend, and I said, look, this guy may be the best analyst going right now, would have been between him and Hubey. If and when he leaves the Pistons, you better be on the phone with him in the next five minutes. And he left the Pistons. I can't remember whether it was a mutual statement or how they did it, but he left on a Thursday. Three days later on Sunday, he's in Indianapolis with me and Isaiah for spurs and pacer's. And when it became a three-man booth, which doesn't always work, but Doug took a lot of the pressure off Isaiah, and then they could play off of each other, which is different than playing off a guy who never played at that level. And of course,

it was the last dance season. We didn't know how it would turn out. But if Doug hadn't been there, those broadcasts would not have been equal to the moment. But when he got there, the whole thing went up many levels. Was there ever a point that you wish that you would got Bill Walton in that trade? You know, I love Bill. We all loved Bill. And Steve's Snapper Jones played on the spirits. So in fact, I was one of the eulogists at Snapper's funeral. So we were friends from the mid-70s on. Game seven, memorable game seven of the Western Conference finals in 2000. The game where the Lakers came from 15 down. Right. It seemed like the trailblazers were going to go to the final. Doug's daughter Kelly was graduating from college that weekend. So he

couldn't do the game. So the one game I did with Walton and the snapper was that game seven, memorable game. And Bill was so into it. He was literally pacing around before the game, like kind of running things through his head. And just about everything's on YouTube. If folks are interested, just put in intro game seven. I'm incidental to it. When you get to Bill and when you think about it, you had a speech impediment that he had to overcome. And so he'd memorize some of the things he wanted to say, at least in the things that could be rehearsed beforehand. And he delivers this soliloquy. Bob statistics mean nothing here.

This is about Shaq and Shaq alone. When he asserts himself, he's able to render thunderous dugs. Even Sabonis cannot contend with him. They have to use up 15 fouls, just blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But where has he been in big moments, disappearing, shrinking from his seven foot frame. This is unbelievable. I'm looking at him. I'm hoping I'm not on camera because I'm trying not to laugh. It's a combination of this is both absurd and wonderful at the same time. He was so genuine. In everything he did, he was so genuine. And of course, because he and Snapper had been

teammates on the Trailblazers in the 70s and very, very close friends, they were a perfect combination. They played off of each other because Snapper could punctuate or puncture. Actually, you know, Bill would go off on some tangent and then Snapper would have some little line that brought the whole thing back to earth was perfect. No, the best part of Snapper and Bill Walton is that was like an old school comedy team. You don't get a lot of like, like in a very particular archetype with I don't know if Snapper signed up to be the straight man. Dave Pass took that job on later with Bill Walton.

But Snapper, Snapper gave us the fun. I can't tell if they like each other. Oh, yeah, but they loved each other. They were so tight. One of the best sports books ever is David Halberstam's The Breaks of the Game. and he was embedded with that Trailblazer team coached by Jack Ramsey that was so good that won the title in, I guess 77, beat Dr. Jay and George McGuinness and company the Sixers in the final. And so you could, Snapper is prominent throughout the book, even though he was a fringe

player at the end of his career at that point. But he was always so smart and so observant. So, yeah, and you could tell even then that other than Maurice Lucas, who had his back as the enforcer, Snapper was Walton's closest friend on the team, and that just carried over, broadcasting wise. Yeah, now you were also on the call. We were talking about that first year with Isaiah Thomas and Doug Collins for Jordan Shot 98 in Utah.

Yeah. And, you know, one of the things I've always felt, and there has been so many others that do it extremely well, but when a moment is big enough, it isn't enough just to call the play. You've got to frame it in some way. So we had reason to believe that this one, was in fact the last dance. The term the last dance wasn't invented a few years ago in the documentary,

Phil Jackson used it during that last season. And I had forgotten, but in watching the last dance, when they came out on the floor for game five, I actually said, if this is the last dance, it might as well be on their dance floor. Then, of course, Utah won the game and forced it back to the Delta Center. So it was in the air the whole time. Is this the end of the Bulls as we have known them? And is this the end of one of the greatest and most transcendent careers in the history of American sports. So it wasn't enough if it was just Joe Blow that makes a big shot with five seconds to go, turns a one-point deficit into a one-point win.

That's a big deal. That's front page of the sports section. But you'd have to be pretty unaware not to realize this is front page of the newspaper when newspapers still really mattered. This isn't just Sports Illustrated. This is Time and Newsweek. This is Michael Jordan and the Bulls dynasty. And so the way that was covered, and I have to,

give great credit to Andy Rosenberg who directed and David Neal, who produced. The way we captured that moment, I think, stood the test of time. And when I watched the last dance, you know, I'm always really very self-critical, but I really felt a good deal of satisfaction about the way we treated that moment. What I remember about those last two possessions are kind of the moments of silence. The silence it felt like existed when Jordan comes and takes the ball from Malone from behind. And then the shot goes up. And it felt, at least on television, like pin drop status. Yeah. And I'm sure you've seen the still picture from kind of the angle. And you can see all these Utah fans on the baseline behind the basket with this look of dread on their face. Oh, no. He's open. He's delivered it. And in the split second between now and when that ball is going to enter the rim, we are toast. Yeah. And there's one kid in a Bulls jersey, both hands up. Like, got it. Got it. But before we go, I wanted to ask you specifically about this.

and you mentioned it earlier, and it was about the building of a narrative around the game. That has been a criticism of modern basketball production in particular, but I think generally sports coverage that we have, in a lot of ways, separated the narrative from these games. A point that you made when we did back on the record that stuck with me was the infiltration of gambling content ignores the fact that nobody ever got into this so they could gamble, right? Like it's something that you do once you get there.

but it's not why anybody showed up for it. In your words, what is the importance of the narrative in building a broadcast? Because I think part of that is what we associate with NBC. Like we didn't even get to talk about the Shaq and Kobe run. But a big part of it is all those games felt big. And one of the things that I noticed people immediately commenting on with the NBC broadcast generally and specifically with the work that you've done there is making the games feel big again. And some of that is just nostalgic.

and after all these are regular season games. You get the real narrative when you get into postseason series and one game builds on another. When you talk about Kobe and Shaq, I remember the last one, the very last one in 2002 when they were going for the sweep against the nets who were so overpowered, it was a foregone conclusion. And we did this whole thing about dynasties,

going back to George Miken and the Minneapolis Lakers. And the idea was, the question is not whether they'll be the champions, but how many more can they run off? to determine their ultimate place in history. The answer was, for Kobe Shaq, none. Of course, Kobe got two more, and Shaq got championships elsewhere. But that ended before it came to fruition in truth.

But on that particular night, we're thinking this is a juggernaut that is just getting started. But that's what we did. And I don't mean to be critical of anyone else. Mike Breen's a Hall of Fame broadcaster. You know, Kevin Harlan is super excited at all times. There were a lot of really good people that worked at CBS before us and at ESPN, ABC,

and TBS after. But what they didn't have was that ethos, not just an element, but an important element, the element. What's the narrative? What's the story? So when most games come on, no matter where it is, it's a bunch of quick cuts, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, to a bunch of people who are involved, but what's the story? The story can't just be, here's a bunch of stars, it's exciting, now let's play. So we leaned into a different way of doing it. And even as the world has changed and the media landscape has changed, pretty clear to me that people still appreciate it. Yeah, what I've said recently is I think it's important distinction that people need. Sports is treated as entertainment, but that's kind of like a corporate sort of outlook. It's, it's

entertaining, but entertainment wishes to replicate that which exists naturally in the world of sport. Like the moment's attention, the feeling that this is the most important thing that's going on in the world right now, the nature of competition, the way the characters are laid out. All we kind of have to do is point it out where in all these other realms, people are trying to figure out how to build it from the ground up, which is why to me it's very, very important that we lean in on the fact that these games feel like something, right? Like we're not just here just because it's fun to watch. Like people invest their lives in this in ways that we often find insane, but that speaks to the point. Yeah, and that's why I think it's always been important to have writers involved, not just behind the scenes, to have people like you to have Tom Verducci now at the Major League

Baseball Network who still does great work at Sports Illustrated, because those people naturally see things from a narrative standpoint. That doesn't mean that they're oblivious to the fact that are we going to bunt here or play hit and run or whatever. are we going to do or who's going to get the ball of this out of bounds play. That's what the game is for. But before the game and after the game, what went down here? And is it just a game? Or is this a game that people will still be talking about? If Al Michaels didn't say what he said, then people would not have remembered it quite the same way. And if the Olympics were not framed

the way the Olympics have generally been framed, first by Runei Knowledge at ABC and then later by Dick Ebersoll and his successors at NBC. And if Vin Scully wasn't Vin Scully and if Jim McKay wasn't Jim McKay, then people would remember those moments less vividly than they do now. So that's what we set out to do. And I guess sometimes we succeeded. All right. That is Bob Costas.

Catch him on the NBA. The NBA and NBC. Major League Baseball on NBC also. My Matt. Thank you so much. I'm in an emeritus role. No heavy lifting. The other night at the Garden, I did the opening narration. I interviewed Steve Kerr for about four minutes,

and about 10 minutes into the broadcast, I was already sitting courtside to just watch the game. That's what it has to be now. Well done, sir. I appreciate your time. Thank you so much. Thanks, Paul. Always good to see it. Likewise, man. And ladies and gentlemen, thanks so much for joining us here on the right time.

We do this four days a week. Ryan Brumley handles everything behind the scenes. Thank you, sir. Hit our voicemail line, 3, 2, 3, 3,000. 9677767. Remember, follow the right time. Subscribe, like, rate us, review us, give us five stars. You only give us four stars. I'm inclined to believe you are a hater and we'll talk to you guys in a couple of days. Take it easy.