The Right Time with Bomani Jones - Corey Erdman on The Night Hulk Hogan Shocked the World and Joined the NWO | 07.02

Episode Date: July 2, 2026

Bomani Jones is joined by Corey Ertman to break down Hulk Hogan’s legendary heel turn at Bash at the Beach 1996, when Hogan shocked fans, joined the NWO, and changed the future of WCW, WWE, and pro wrestling forever. In this episode of The Right Time, Bomani and Corey revisit Hulkamania, Hollywood Hogan, the rise of the New World Order, and why Hogan’s jump to WCW initially felt like a legacy act before the NWO made him feel brand new again. They also discuss why the turn hit so hard, how it helped reshape the Monday Night Wars and the Attitude Era, and why Hogan remained the most recognizable star wrestling ever produced. Topics include Hulk Hogan, NWO, WCW, WWE, Bash at the Beach, Hollywood Hogan, Eric Bischoff, Kevin Nash, Scott Hall, the Monday Night Wars, and wrestling nostalgia. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Wave. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the right time. A Wave Original. My name is Beaumani Jones. Thanks for listening wherever you get your podcast. Thanks for watching us on YouTube. Subscribe, like, rate us, review us, give us five stars. You only give us four stars.

I'm inclined to believe you are a hater. It is Time Machine Tuesday. This time we're going to talk about something sports-ish. You know what I'm saying? The moment that Hulk Hogan shocked the world and betrayed all of our childhoods and was the third man and joined the NWO. But with us, we have boxing commentator, but he also sometimes talk about fake fighting. Also, for a producer of a little show called DeMorny Jones, Corey Irman, what's going on?

I told him this off the air, but I never thought the day would come when you would call me at 9 a.m. to talk about wrestling, but I am here. Let's go. Imagine me, when I first got, it was working for it was there hardcore sports radio to realize that I was coming to a place. where people took Rassel, like for real serious. I didn't get it. Like the TV station was the score,

the score, the score, read the network, and the score had the NBA contract in Canada. It was like, hell yeah. And they told me about that. They also had the Rassland TV contract, which nobody told me about. And then one night I've just scanned it through on serious, and I listen, and I hear Corey talking about wrestling like it's for real.

Like there was a seriousness to the tone. I was like, shit. There's a world of discussing Rassland that I simply did not know existed. And listen, you know what's funny, Bo, is basically when you asked me to do this, as you know, I'm not really on social media like that, but I keep Facebook for, you know, old photos and whatnot and mainly to buy furniture on Facebook marketplace. But my memories served me a date, which was that last Thursday was my 16th anniversary of my debut on national television. Oh, wow. Which was on right after wrestling on the score where we talked about wrestling. wrestling, to your point, as if it was real, because at that point, the rules were dictated by

WWE, and the score had WWE rights, and they didn't allow you to talk about it as if it were a television program. So you went to go on there and say, like, boy, I don't know how Ray Mysterio is going to overpower the big show. There is a 450 pound weight differential here. We had to do that on television. So I'm glad that I have moved on to talking about real fight. on television like that. What's the word? K-Fame? That's the word?

K-Fave. Like, you just got to, we're all the way in on this. But I will say for people who feel like I don't treat Rassland with respect it deserves and it's not the Rassland, it's you guys. But the thing I do find interesting is I do enjoy watching people

like who really are into this to discuss it. Like the economy that is around discussing Rassland now is I find it to be very, very interesting because there's people evaluating the plot which, and I'm not saying this as a judgment, it's almost like soap opera fans because you can say whatever you want in real time and actually get some results from the home office because you guys are the ones that decide like what goes and does not go. So there's that, but there's also what you have an understanding of the business and the people that are involved in this. There's a million different things. And that's part of,

to me, why this Hogan thing is so interesting, especially with all the things that happened long after this and of course with Hogan passing. But the building and legend of Hulkemania, which it was, and he was not Hulcomania in 1996 because they did not own those trademarks. We will talk about that also as we get into this. But when I, you know, I am older than you, but when I first was aware that Rathland existed, Hulkomania was already a thing. Like it's wild to me to consider that there was a world where it wasn't a thing, especially considering he wasn't very good at Rassland, but somehow managed to. to get himself all the way to the top of this.

Oh, yeah. Like, I, I don't know if I've said this on air before. I probably said it back in the morning Jones days. But I think until I was 11 years old, I didn't eat a piece of candy because Hulk Hogan said, you shouldn't do that. You should take your, you should take your vitamins and say your prayers

and lift the, like, you know, blue plastic weights that he sold. Like, I was all the way in on Hulkamedia at that point. And you're right. Like, Hulk Hogan. as a professional wrestler, especially compared to what we see on television right now, was not, you know, particularly, like, majestic in the ring. He's not, like, a poetry in motion type athlete that you'd be, your jaw would drop watching

him in the ring. But for the 80s, like, the kind of, like, big, hulking, kind of clumsy wrestling that we knew, he was pretty much on par with everybody. Like, Hulk Hogan was just, it was just a cult of personality, which we'll get into. but he was, he seemed to jump through the screen in a way that a professional wrestler hadn't before. Yeah, and wrestling was so much smaller. Like there is obviously a pre-Hulkomania post-Hulkomanic.

Is it fair to say like pre-Ressomania 1 or even WrestleMania 3, post-Restimania 3? But he feels like the fulcrum for all of these things in terms of professional wrestling, not simply being regional. Like it was regional pockets at this point. Obviously the rival of Vince McMahon also comes in on this. But like the idea to think it turned Hogan into this guy from California, when you look back on it, you're like, no, this is Tampa. Like, this is obviously a big old dude from Tampa.

Yeah, no, he is the fulcrum. And I think that what we'll get into later, you know, the formation of the NWO, he's again the fulcrum in terms of, excuse me, like a tonal shift of professional wrestling. So it kind of, he dictates basically what wrestling looks like and the serious. of it and again the tone of it, it goes from Hulkomania to basically pre-NWO and post-MWO. And so that's like, you know, a 20, near 30-year run of Hogan being kind of the main character of wrestling and the industry kind of following his path and the tone that he is setting. Well, like, how would you describe what was different, like, from his first arrival?

Because if I'm not mistaken, there was the Iron Sheik, but the guy that was really the champ before of that was Bob Backlin, and I don't have any contemporaneous recollection of Bob Backlin, but I remember when he came back, and I couldn't figure out why this dude was in wrestling. He just came out with a town around his neck and seen like the most boring person in the world, right? Like what wrestling had become in the mid-80s was so much different. To this day, I cannot conceptualize how they were like, this is going to be the guy. Yeah, at that point, those types of wrestlers, you think like even Bruno San Martino, who is obviously a gargantuan star.

As a wrestler, you know, he's a big hulking guy in blue trunks, who's kind of the hero of the people. Bob Backland was an excellent amateur wrestler, a fantastic athlete, but kind of void of that bombast as well. And you could see, like, the reference points for Hulk Hogan are based their superstar Billy Graham and their Dusty Rhodes. So those people were starting to break through regionally,

and you're starting to see that tight. of character, you know, the big, like the screaming wrestler who's coming through your TV that just becomes the basic and baseline moving forward. Hogan basically puts those two things together. And when he comes into WWF at that point, everything really does hinge on him being that star. And it does work. But yeah, it had to be at that point, Hogan moves aside those just sort of clean cut baby face. I'm a good wrestler and that's the reason why I am the champion. And it necessitates your top character also being a big character who can then sell

merchandise because the economy of wrestling changes overnight as well with merchandising and with television. And he was a monster on the mic, right? And like to me, a monster on a mic in a way that's a bit different than Rhodes or even Rick Flair, like I think the most interesting thing about Rick Flair on the mic to this day is moment that you realize, wait a minute, he's actually like this. Like, this is not, this is not really something that he has created. Like, these are things that he's probably telling people in real life when he gets a hold of it. Hogan had created a very, very interesting

character that I would not assume is the character that he was in real life. Like, Rick Flair showing up in the suits, in the shades and everything else, I'm like, oh, no, no, no, this isn't a costume budget. This is what he does all the time. Yeah, and Flair and Rhodes, like, they're, they're good on the mic in the way that when you go back and you watch their promos now, like they're funny and they're kind of clever. When you go back and watch Hogan promos, you're sort of laughing at the absurdity. Like much of it doesn't make a whole ton of sense, but the delivery of it and at that time of big superheroes and action movies and whatnot, He looked like one that was having a movie scene in real time.

You know, when you tuned in, it was like you were watching a superhero, especially because wrestling wasn't discussed as it was right now. There was a full shroud of secrecy. Like, you might have understood that obviously this is a performance, but you didn't know anything behind the scenes. So when you were seeing Hogan in the 80s, it was like watching a live Rambo movie. He's beating the bad guys on your television, but it's happening in real time. Like it was the perfect character for the perfect moment.

Yeah, and that's the thing about by the time you get to WrestleMania, one, we haven't talked about the important characteristic of the character, which is heavy dollops of jingoism, right? Like, it's him and the iron sheik. Like, it is at a point. And I think that it's, you almost kind of take it for granted, especially if you're my age and Campbell for wrestling at that point. But there's a book I read called Brand NFL.

It's a really interesting book for people to check out. And one point that they make about it was the NFL figured out that when they took their product and then they wedded it to the red, white and blue, that's when everything took off is when they managed to associate it with Americana, which is something obviously the NBA, for example, has struggled with. And I would say that baseball has kind of lost its attachment to for a number of reasons. But the NFL, there's always going to be that big old giant flag before the games and everything else and flyovers and all that stuff because they figured out that's a winning combination. and the NHL being the exception for an obvious reason. There's a reason all the logos are red, white, and blue of all of these sports. Hogan gave them, like, you tell me, I don't have a recollection of there being a superstar prior to Hogan that they really had wedded toward being like the American hero.

Even Dusty Rose, the American Dream, felt a little cheeky, right? Hogan really did seem like I'm out here fighting for the whole country, especially when you put them up against somebody like the Irish Sheet. And then the Russians later. Exactly, yeah. The only guy I can think of is Sergeant Slaughter, but that's more like on the nose like I am an American soldier, even though he wasn't, by the way. Sergeant Slaughter's just a big long tail of stolen valor. Just a guy. Just a guy, you know. But yeah, I mean, Hogan basically from beating the Iron Sheik all the way until he beats Sergeant Slaughter, like Iraqi sympathizer, Sergeant Slaughter. When he teams with the Iron Sheik. who is no longer the Iron Sheik. That's right. He is now moved from Iran to Iraq.

That's right. And it's become Colonel Mustafa. That's right. Yeah. They're basically, the audience doesn't tire of that story for that whole period of time. It's just a series of, uh,

of foes from different nationalities, uh, or just big giants for him to slay. Or the combination of the two, which is Andre the giant. Correct. We don't really think about it because I guess, yeah,

he's from France or whatever, but there's, he's still a big giant. giant outsider. Yes, yeah, exactly. Yeah. They don't, they don't lean on that that heavily with the giant, but it's, yeah, it's understood that this is a monster that isn't from here. And like Kamala, for example, is another example of that, right? It's like, it would have been more explicit terms. Yes. No, this is, like, now that I think about, Hogan was the original ice. Yeah, yeah, I think, I think the story of America could pretty closely just track with the story of Hulk Hogan. Yeah, like he was out here roughing up foreigners and sometimes they weren't even foreigners.

Sometimes they was really from here. They're like, yo, I'm trying to explain this to you. No, no, no, no, no. Hogan's bringing it to them all. Like, look, Hogan, it felt to me when I was a kid. I remember when he lost the championship to Andre the Giant on Saturday night's main event. And then Andre the Giant gave it to the most American character

of all time, the million-dollar man, Ted DiBiase. But it felt like, he was like FDR. It felt like he had been the champion in my whole life. And in fact, I think for all intents and purposes, he had been. Like, you never even got, it was a special occasion if you got to watch him wrestle.

You had to stay up for Saturday nights, made event or whatever, because they wasn't putting Hogan on no All-American wrestling. You were going to have to get your mama to pay $10 to see him on pay per view. Like, they gave a scarcity to him that after that did not exist with the champs. Yeah, and it's something that current WWE is trying to kind of bring back.

And I don't know, people aren't really taking it, taking to it particularly fondly, I don't think. But yeah, there was, if you wanted to see Hogan wrestle, it was either on Saturday night's main event, so it's on, you know, cable television so they can get a monster rating. They're making any, if they were going to put Hogan in front of you, they were going to make money off of it. If you were to see him on superstars, it was going to be him cutting a promo. You're going to see highlights of things that happened with him. But if you're watching him live, you had to pay and see him physically in person or on pay-per-view when those started coming around or yeah you're going to have

to stay up very late on saturday night they were going to get something out of you seeing hulkoken yeah like it was not not just a special occasion he come into the ring it takes him 15 minutes to basically get in there you're getting two verses and a bridge of real america right which by the way has an incredible pavlovia response to this day like something important is about to happen with Rick Derringer comes on the system because, again, this is not something that you got every day. No, and the Hogan entrance, too, you got to remember, you know, I'll take it over to the boxing world at that time because they're running in parallel, especially at that point in terms of pop culture. Like, big bombastic ring entrances weren't really a thing at that time. Like, the first major boxer who started to really use ring entrance music at that point was Larry Holmes.

He came out to Ain't No Stopin' Us Now by McBadden and White. Of all songs. Like, yeah, right. That was, that song is way too happy. Like, I understand the point and the sentiment of it. But that's a little peppy for, of all people, Larry Holmes. But Larry Holmes, like, go and listen to Larry Holmes's music. Like, Larry Holmes likes a little bit of cheesiness in his music.

I forgot that Larry Hall's made music. Yes. Oh, yeah. But yeah, at that point, like, we weren't, you would see boxers have entrances and whatnot, but not everyone was using ring entrance music. So when Hogan is doing it, of course, a couple people had done this before, but it was that big, like, we're following our hero into the ring that is so central to the presentation of wrestling now, that was brand new for a lot of people.

And when it's the guy that you're obsessed with and you've got, like, you've got his action figure, you're sitting there, like that, everything timed out perfectly. for how he was presented. And made for television, right? Like, this is the beginning of the day. I had no concept of it in real time that when I was showing up to that party, that party was really just becoming a big thing.

Right? Like, to me, it's like, this is what it has always been, but this is the real arrival. And of course, they got more in touch with it in the early to mid-90s with just the understanding that what they were producing was a television show. But Hogan was ahead of the game

and getting that I am the star of this television. show. Yeah, and Hogan always seemed to approach this as a television show too, right? Like, people always talk about, especially when he got into WCW, like the clauses he would have in his contract about, you know, like getting paid for, his contract was obviously better than other wrestlers. But when you look at the things that he was getting, you know, he would get an upfront fee to appear on a pay-per-view and he would get a percentage of those pay-per-view sales. That's just a normal television contract, you know, like you get residuals and you get paid to show up to work. Like the weirdness is in what the other wrestling contracts are like.

And of course, the irony is that Hogan was the man who stopped a union from forming in the WWF in the 80s, but, you know, the contract that he had should have been the type of contract that everyone had. Yeah. Let me tell you a subtle thing about Hogan, too, in terms of his presentation, which wasn't always the case when they really leaned in, like the Hulkomania character came around. It's the red and yellow color thing. It's something that I had never thought about until I went to, have you been to the neon museum in Vegas? Yes, yes. Yeah, one of my favorite spots there, yeah. Yeah, so for people who have not been there, it tells the story of Las Vegas through old neon signs, right? And one point they made there that I had never thought about was that those colors

red and yellow are like, I forget what the adjective is, but it's basically like bootleg neon, right? Like it's, it makes things pop in that same way. And if you stop and think about it, all the fast food places have red and yellow signs. McDonald's, Burger King, Wendy's, in and out, go up and down your fast food places when you think of. And now just think about places that you go and you see it is because those colors together pop like its neon light, right? Like that's a big part of the Hogan thing is they put him in those colors.

And I don't know if they thought about it in that way, but that's a very particular pairing of colors that made him kind of stand out because otherwise it's kind of like, yo, why is this guy wearing this set of things. But when you really just stop and think about the world and as you live in it, oh no, that is a side of say, hey, look at this. Yeah. And to this day, if you see red and yellow, I think you think of Hulk Hogan at that point. Yes.

You know, like it's or McDonald's, right? And that's a pretty good competitor, right? If it's him or McDonald's. Right. Right. Like that's the level of ubiquity that we're talking about. But, you know, after he gave up that title to Andre the Giant, and then like basically to the end of his time in WWE, he's still a big deal, but they're moving on, right?

Like they have a little macho man run. You go into the Ultimate Warrior. You combine Hogan with the Ultimate Warrior and try to with macho too. Nobody's team player. But hey, okay, we're going to go ahead and we'll make this happen. But kind of, you know, gradually as it went, it was kind of time for something else. Like these guys rasseled forever, certainly, but he couldn't be what he was in the WWE, but still WWF at that point, but for so long.

Yeah, and he was also getting kind of tantalized by movie and TV interests and, you know, turned out to be not as good an actor as maybe he thought he was, right? But he was chasing that money. And as he stepped away, other people started stepping into the forefront, you know, guys like, guys like Brett Hart would appear and people would say, oh, like this, I haven't seen wrestling quite like this before. I like this a little bit better. And gradually, you know, the industry and the fandom of WWF, I think they're taking. taste start to change a little bit. People get a little bit older and they gravitate towards other characters. Well, also, I think we can't lose sight of this part. Once the steroid thing got into the public consciousness, we saw from both federations a move towards smaller,

more athletic wrestlers. Like, that's the thing about heart, the excellence of execution in all of those things, right? Like, it was, okay, we need to go about this toward a different paradigm. Hell, you'd me see, this is when Rick Flair turns up in the WWE. Rick Flair wasn't a small wrestler necessarily, but it was still, it was an emphasis on a different style because, also, Hogan, who suddenly went from being like

305 to 270. Huh? Yes. Yeah, you look at like WrestleMania 9, Hogan, and he looks a whole lot different, you know? He looked like that year to Jason Giobie came back. It was like, oh, no, just cleaned up my diet a little bit. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, it looked like Hulk answered those So OZempic ads and came back a couple months later. But the time was gone. And also, you know, Ted Turner did not care about wrestling nearly the way the Vince McMahon did obviously because Ted Turner had a lot more stuff going on. But Ted Turner wasn't in the business of losing. And the idea of them getting Hulk Hogan to come to the WCW was giant. Oh, it was massive.

It was, and it was getting a mainstream star. And also a lot of WCW. you at that point is filmed at, like it's filmed in Orlando and you're around Disney. And so you see Hulk Hogan again, who for a lot of people of a certain age, was no different from cartoon characters, from, from superheroes. And then suddenly he's there in real life and they have this parade and, you know, he's going through Disney. It was a Disney or Universal Studios, I forget. But, you know, he's around that universe. It felt, it, it gave them. a fighting chance in a war that clearly only Ted Turner cared about that at that point,

because I think the rest of the company would have been cool just running basically a regional television, wrestling television show and staying doing what they wanted. But Ted had bigger ambitions and Hogan was the key to doing something bigger than what they were doing. And again, and I think this is important, it was a much smaller Hogan. Like the Hogan of that era, it didn't look like he should be ripping his shirt off. Right? Like he just wasn't that big of a guy.

And to me, and I mentioned this a little bit earlier, because they didn't own any of the trademarks and Vince obviously wasn't going to give them the stuff from before, it all felt bootleg. Like it looked like imitation Hulk Hogan stuff, like the shirt with Hulkster across the front, right? Him being so much smaller than he had been before, it looked, it, this was not what we grew up with.

And we could obviously tell that it wasn't. And I can't remember how much of that plays into the decision that they ultimately made that they had to basically shift this whole brand. I think that had to play into it. Because for me, like going back to that parade when he's going through, he's walking through Disney. Like to me, I do remember a little bit of a feeling of like this, like we're almost bringing a mascot of a character in right now. And to your point, it did feel bootlike. you have Hulkster on the shirt, you have a new song that Jimmy Hart had to make, you know, American Maids.

So it's not, it's not his old theme song. Everything about it feels a little bit different. The sets kind of look like cardboard sometimes. Like it feels like a legacy act at that point. And something like it, if they didn't switch it when they did, everything, you know, he probably just kind of gradually falls down the card and becomes, again, just sort of this old guy who's hanging on. but they were able to revive it. And I think one of the things that really worked about turning him heel,

we'll get into this in a sec, is they talk about it reviving Hulk Hogan, and I think one of the things it did is, yes, he turned on a lot of his supporters, so those people booed him, and it made him a successful heel character. But the other thing is it gave people, especially in that point,

a thing that you like to do as a wrestling fan, was cheer for the bad guy so that you could stick it to those people. So some people were cheering for Hogan because it was like you're laughing at the people who were upset about him turning bad. And you get to cheer for the version of bad Hulk Hogan as well. And then

those people bought his merchandise. So it was a genius move at the time that it happened. Yeah, it was such an ambitious thing. And to build up like this change that we're talking about. It was a dude they used to call Diesel and a dude they used to call Razor Ramon who

left. And also this is, WWF was kind of falling off at this point too. Like, everything was, everything just felt a little weird for this whole industry and trying to figure out where it was that they were going. But they leave and they just start turning up at WCW events with no names, no thing. They weren't even out there really wrestling at first. They just called themselves the outsiders. And if you paid any attention to wrestling, you knew what they were dudes that used to be at the WWF. But there was this, I don't really know what's going on here. Right. Like it was like a much better version of the. the Doom gimmick.

And for those of you who don't know, it was a tag team called Doom. They had two black dudes in mass, but the problem was the whole company only had three black dudes. So everybody knew exactly who they were and what was going on, right? But with this, it was just like,

so I don't understand what's going on. What are we doing? And then finally, as it builds and builds, they announced they got a third guy, right? The third man, this is what they call it. And they out here and they're wrestling at the pay-per-view, bash at the beach. okay which bad you go back and look at that that is a low budget

looking production for them to have the audacity to have charged people money to watch that shit and so they're in this match Bobby Heiden and was on the call is he on the call but Jim Ross I can't remember who the other guy was up Tony Chivani at that time yeah Tony Chivati right and they're on the call keeping in mind Bobby Heenan apparently hates Hulk Hogan in real life also or he did a very good job of pretending and so

we've been waiting to find out who the third man is they end the ring cheating and Hogan starts walking out and people think Hogan's coming to save the date. Bobby Hennon, of course, says, he's the third man. And I can't imagine what it was like in the production truck, right, when they heard that. But it was such a preposterous notion that even with him saying that this is what was going to happen, it didn't feel like that was what was going to happen. And then suddenly, these two guys who come from WWF and they're now wrestling in WCW,

Hogan comes in there and you realize, oh, he's one of them. And he hits the dudes with the leg drop and all of that. stuff and he grabs the mic. He also fucks up. Because he called it, but the New World Organization. Like, he blew his lie. Yeah, he kind of fumbles. He's the New World Order of Wrestling, brother.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, like he blew it, but he was auto. He hit it. He was just like, yo, like, it was as good a shoot as he had done since he had gotten back there in those shots of the crowd, people throwing shit in the ring. Like, it's the epitome of it's still real to me. and even if it wasn't real to you, it is amazing to me that anything could ever be as shocking as that fake shit was. Yeah, I know, I remember watching.

I remember where I was. I remember sitting in the basement on the floor, watching it on the tube TV as it happened. I don't really remember what I felt. I think I was certainly shocked. I can't remember whether I was upset. I think I was old enough at that point that I didn't feel betrayed by Hulk Hogan. I think I'd eaten a piece of candy by that point.

But yeah, everything that they were doing at that point, remember, the way that we interact with wrestling right now, everything is out in the open. That economy of wrestling discussion that you talked about, it really is fascinating because wrestling fans have an insatiable appetite for more and more information. And they will go back and listen to interviews about the same stuff over and over and over. Case and point, the episode that you're going to watch right now about a show from 1990. 96. People are still into it. But at that point, really there were, I guess 96 would have been like early internet. There were probably a couple websites if you subscribe to the wrestling observer, like the physical newsletter that got mailed to your house. You might have some concept of what was going on behind the scenes. Other than that, it was periodicals that were published by Bill Aptor. They were magazines that were still basically in K-Fave. They would sometimes. refer to wrestlers' real names, there would be references to things that were going on behind the scenes, but ultimately it suggested that wrestling was a legitimate sporting contest. So even people who understood what wrestling was still had no way of predicting what was going on. There was no

precedent for this. Like the NWO storyline was influenced by a very similar storyline in Japan, in New Japan Pro Wrestling. But people seeing this thought, are these guys actually invading the television show? Like, has Vince McMahon sent Diesel and Razoramone to take over WCW? Is Hulk Hogan tired of WCW and going back to Vince to take over this company? Like, people did not have a concept of what was going on. And it's, at this point, you couldn't really do a storyline like that. We just know too much.

They try to every once in a while, but we demand too much as well. So even if you can trick us now, two weeks later, there'll be an interview online with someone explaining what's going on. But that shroud of secrecy allowed wrestling to be something very special at that time. All right. Coming up next, we're going to talk about what happened after that. And, you know, how Hulk, Hulk has squandered every bit of goodwill a sorry ass ever had. Rest in peace. The biggest stage in world soccer is here and every goal changes everything. and now Fanduil is giving you a reason to root for every single one.

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1-800-Mai Reset. Call 1-88-789-7777- Visit CCPpGG.org slash chat, Connecticut. Visit MDGamblinghelp.org, Maryland. Visit Gamblinghelpline, MA, dot org. Call 800-327-50-50. Massachusetts. Call 1-877-8-8-Hope-N-Y. Text, Hope-N-Y, New York. Call 1-877-7-7-867-Lewisiana. All right, we are back with Corey Irtman talking about the day the Hulk Hogan, went to the NWO. And I'll tell you, I was 15 when that happened and didn't even watch Rassland like that. And it was still riveting. I can't believe this is, like, it was a, it was like the sort of if school was in, right? You go to school and you're like, dude, can you believe this? Like, can you believe this happen? And from there, I think it helped where we're talking about

the change. It got them out of the red and yellow, right? Because how do you rebrand Hulk Hogan? You can't, the only way that you could rebrand Hulk Hogan is to destroy Hulk Hogan, right? Gets him in a completely different clothes, changes the whole look, all of it. Bischoff and all those guys at WCW. I really do think they deserve a great deal of credit because they did the impossible and they figured out how to make Hulk Hogan new. Yeah. And the things that were probably holding Hulk down at that point, you know, like the really cheesy delivery and whatnot, there were elements of that that actually made him a better

heel. Like his presentation, a lot of people found Hollywood Hogan really cool, right? He sold a ton of merchandise. There were a lot of people who were very into it. But again, going back to the two ways that that character worked, then, you know, the really cheesiness, like the over the top selling as a heel and whatnot, like he was able to lean into that in a way that worked as a bad guy that by 1997 as a good guy just didn't fly with that audience. And it also became almost kind of like NWA, right?

Like wearing the black gear, like it is the, it was, there's an anti-hero element there. And by and large, I didn't, you come here from wrong here. I never felt like Rastlin Heels really truly gave you anti-hero. Like, you might root for them to troll or to, like, to be spiteful or, you know, but I think Steve Austin became a fantastic anti-hero after a point. But up until that, you didn't really have it. And also, I think people were like, yo, we cheer for Hulk Hokeke. That's what we do.

We're not ready to stop yet. Right. Yeah. So two things that, so you mentioned NWA. Like Kevin Nash has explicitly said that NWA and West Coast hip hop in general was basically the influence for how they presented things. And Hulk, obviously, as we'll get into later, didn't know anything about that world. But Big Sexy from Detroit definitely did. And so he brought that as to that, you know, he had like the red bandana worn backwards like Tupac. And, you know,

there were, so that the imagery was definitely taken from that. But yeah, I think when it came to anti-heroes. You might have cheered for a bad guy because you found them cool before, but it wasn't this explicit. And you're right. Like Austin was kind of bubbling at that point, but wasn't a thing.

That's post-NWO. And the other thing that's post-NWO is over on the other side, Vince McMahon had started, you know, having little tifts with characters, but was still presented as just sort of like a virtuous commentary. even though they'd kind of let it slip that he ran the company as well.

But Vince as the overbearing heel boss, that comes post Eric Bischoff too. And those two things, the cool anti-hero and the battle against the establishment, essentially become the pillars of wrestling storylines for like the next 30 years. It all comes after this and it's all basically because of this night. It made WWF step their game all the way. way up. That whole area, the Monday Night Wars, attitude era, everything there. It is, it is like people who

extolled the virtues of capitalism. This is what people wanted, right? By our sharp as iron, right? Competition makes everybody better. And that's what you had. Nothing beats to me, though, when the WWF was still showing Monday Night Raw on tape and bish off and get on TV and read off

all the results and be like, all right, don't need you to watch that. Here's everything that happened over there. Yeah. Like, I'm surprised nobody pulled up on him behind that. Yeah, I mean, they kind of made a storyline about that as if, like, Degeneration X was on like a tank, trying to invade Nitro, right? So, but yeah, but Bischoff could fight. That's the problem.

You couldn't pull up on Bischoff because he was like a legit kickboxer. Like, Eric Bishoff could beat your ass. Had no idea. Yeah, yeah. I think we remember Eric Bischoff a little bit differently. You go back and look at Eric Bischoff, he can fight, and he's a good looking dude. Like, Eric Bischoff had. everything going and he was a slick talker. Yeah, no, that was the thing about Bischoff.

Like before Bischoff took charge, he did seem to be in many ways overqualified to be on Rassel and TV. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, he was just a natural speaking talent. Yeah. Now, how long was it before they started bringing Hogan back like into the fold? Because before I do that, I just want to get, I feel like I haven't done a good enough job of selling the magnitude of the moment and the shock of everything. Is there anything that's ever been a parallel in wrestling to what it was in that moment for that to happen. I can't think of one. They tried to recreate it, what, like two years ago or something with John Cena turning

heel. Yeah. But that's obviously still derivative of NWO. Like they are immediately referencing Hogan turning at that point. I don't think that anything was ever that shock. There were betrayals in wrestling before. But again, all these different elements of peeling the curtain back. and suggesting that something that was off script was happening,

that they're playing with elements that they couldn't have played with before. It was entirely new. Yeah, and like you talking before about how Hogan has started to feel like a legacy act when he first got to WCW. After this had kind of run its course and he goes back to being Hulk Hogan again. And I just can't remember how long it had been. I know that by the time you get to like 0-1-2, he's back in WWE. And, you know, he's at that space.

But then to me, you correct me a frog, I really feel like it went Legacy Act then, right? Like the Jimmy Hendrix intro coming. Like he's now classic rock guy. He is taking the boa and stuff that he used to wear that was in black, but now it's back in the red and yellow and everything else. And, you know, they let him get a win every now and then. Because, man, you want to, the idea of K-Fave that we really thought that, you know,

after a while he's really tired and then people punch him and he just starts shaking his head. That's all. He just taps into some reservoir of invincibility. get a Mario star. And then next thing, you know, he's winning. We really were believing in buying that. It became so much more implausible by the end where you're like, oh yeah, I remember when he used to, yeah, that's cool. Really, yeah. Well, yeah, and it was very legacy acty at that point because no one else does that because if anyone else did that, you know, people would be like, well, that's not believable whatsoever. You come up with a better story. So yeah, he is very, but again, like even when he comes back,

has that match with the rock where at least for one night, like Hulkomania is all the way back in the Skydome at that point, right? Yes. But again, that was still rooted in nostalgia. That was people in Toronto showing up and being like, no, tonight we're going to, we're reliving Hulkomania again for one night. We're going to do this. And that was really nice on a rock to go along with that.

Right. My pride would not have allowed me. Even in a, even in Rasslett, there's no way I'm going to let you think this old man, like beat me here. Like, I felt like. when Rick Flair came back as an old man, there was never a moment where it didn't feel like there was an old man and they were treating him like he was an old man.

Hogan, it was just like, I do this one time for the people. I don't feel like Flair ever got that respect in his old man faith. Dude, they treated Flair like an old man from like 95 in WCW all the like for the next 20 years or whenever he retired. Did he ever really retire? I mean, technically he's retired, but he always talks about coming back. Dude, I have a phone number in my phone

that I have under Nature Boy, Rick Flair. He was all the show I did once. He gave me his phone number. I called him once. I can't remember why he was in the middle of some meeting. Like, I think that's when he was pitching mortgages. And for those who don't know, Rick Flair has tried to sell everything.

But it was the figure, like there was something like the figure four plan or something that was associated. But I call him and he's like, in a meeting, he's like, hey, hey, what's going on, man? Yeah, yeah, I'm at the speed. Let me give you a call back a little bit later.

All right. All right, cool. First of all, why would Rick Flair give me his phone number? That was the thing about it. Why would I call Rick Flair? Like, there's a whole series of things that ran together. But yeah, if you called Rick Flair, you pick up the phone. How did, so have you ever met Rick Flair?

Yes, I have met Rick Flair. So I will say that I interviewed Hulk Hogan one time. And this was, we'll get into this. This was pre-tapes. Yes. So it's early in my right around. early in my like TV career and whatnot, I interviewed Hulk Hogan. And I remember it probably being the only time when I was a little bit nervous going into the interview, not necessarily because of like

the starstruck nature, because at that point I'd interviewed athletes and you get used to that very quickly. But because I didn't know how to interact with him, I really only had this image of Hulk Hogan like the superhero character on my screen. And then I didn't know how how I was going to approach this conversation. So I was nervous going into it. And I remember my first question being like, how, just so I could break this barrier, how do you differentiate between Hulk Hogan and Terry? And I forget what his answer was, but I needed to do that because I didn't know how to

have this conversation. And I imagine, you know, when you meet Rick Flair, it's kind of the same thing because he's kind of always Rick Flair. He's always Rick Flair. And he's really good at being Rick Flair. Yeah. Like Rick Flair in a restaurant, just talking to people, like he is very aware that the people are who allow him to stay in the space that he's in. And so he is incredibly charming.

He'll take all the pictures with everybody. He'll sit and have a drink with you, the whole nine, right? Like he knows how he's going to survive. I think it's also it's a little different when you're broke, right? Like I got to keep this money coming in one way or another. But you brought it up with the tapes. And I was about to say, I'm trying to think of things as shocking as when Hogan went heal and rassling. And the truth is, it's when he went heal in real life when the tapes came out. And you can sit this part out if you want. I'm going to come with the hot take on this. That shit was hilarious. Like if we just don't have Hogan using the N-word and him simply saying, yeah, my daughter's dating a black dude, but couldn't it be a black dude with somebody? Couldn't it be a

rapper? Couldn't it be a basketball player? Why can't it just be some regular black dude. There are a lot of black people who have those same exact conversations with their black daughters about the do nothing black dude that they happen to be dating at that point in time. Like, you hear it in his voice. He knows he's saying something hilarious. He's like great jokes, right? And I'm hearing it like, not the worst jokes I ever heard. And then the world found out. And it was like, as somebody was putting about somebody else, or maybe this was about Hogan, it was like fighting out that Santa Claus is sleeping with your sister. Listen, my main take on this, Bo, is, you know, obviously a lot of people were disappointed,

but then there were a lot of people maybe less in the moment, but as time went on, who have tried to tie themselves and have tied themselves into knots trying to explain this. You know, like, oh, he used a racial slur because he heard it on the streets growing up in Tampa, you know? I'm like, okay, like you can do that if you want. But how do you explain the line that preceded that on the tapes bow, which was Hulk Hogan saying, I am a racist? Yes, he does. Yes, he does. How do you explain that?

What he's telling you? Out top of his long legacy of behind the scenes racism. Right. In the WWF. Like, no, no, no. There's no question here of Hogan's level of racism, right? Like, like, it is known. And then he wound up with what?

Aubrey races in his position fears. He wound up with a daughter, not nearly as racist as he is, if you know what I mean. It's like, right? Like it is the, it is the, it's the homopholm who turns up with the gay son. It's like all,

all the things that people talk about. But yeah, no, no, no. His racism was abundantly clear. There's no way around it. And for black people, man, it was tough. It was tough when this Hogan thing came down. And I don't know why. Like, there's a particular anguish that comes

as a black person when somehow you think this white man is cool. It's like when we found out that Bobby Bowden was riding with Trump. There was no reason for us to be surprised that Bobby Bowden was riding with Trump. He is the demo. It makes perfect sense,

but it was just kind of like, damn, man. That was really disappointing. And with Hogan, people were really, like their feelings were hurt because he was presented as something that belonged to everybody. Like, he was the guy.

And I look back on it, I'm surprised my dad. did not try to warn me immediately about this man. But no, he, he, he, a piece of him belonged to everybody. And then suddenly that happened. And it was like, damn. Yeah. And it's, I think it's extra disappointing because again, like, I keep going back to this

idea of like Hulk Hogan just being like a real life superhero. And I think it's different if like, say I'm a fan of like the Superman franchise or something. And, you know, Superman, but I guess did happen. Superman turns out to, you know, to believe things you don't believe and you get disappointed. You can still kind of separate that character. There is no separation between, there's no one else put the Hulk Hogan mask on, for example, right? So you can't, if you want to enjoy, you know, going back and watching Hulk Hogan now, you always have to grapple with that for the rest of your life. You always have to think about it.

And that's very uncomfortable. But yeah, I don't, I still cannot believe that people forget that he just said the words, I am a racist because he went on TV saying, no, I'm not a racist. Here's wise, you know, I was, you've seen tales from the tour bus, right? Like, yeah, the Mike judge. And I always think about, like, if I'm a defense lawyer and I've tried to defend Hulk Hogan in this case of am I racist or not, it would be like that scene where Johnny Paychecks lawyer, Johnny Paychecks spinning the pistol in the courtroom, and you just see him.

take his notes. That's it. I am a racist is an admission on tape. I don't know what to tell you, brother. And he gave like no attempt at any accountability of contrition whatsoever. Like that tells you everything that you need to know about how wrong people like him truly know that they are. Right.

Like he didn't try to, he didn't try to run through it. He didn't just try to say, yes, so what? but he also couldn't say, yeah, my bad. He had to try to go with, don't believe your lying ears. Yes, yes, exactly. And even, you know, like this documentary that came out on Netflix, like, you know, he's getting towards the end of his life. You'd think at some point he'd have that moment where he's like,

I'm going to come clean, I'm going to apologize. And that still doesn't happen in that documentary. No. It still never happens. No, and let me tell you, it wrote it all the way until he died, man. Hulk Hogan died and black people treated it when Hulk Hogan died, like white people treated it when OJ Simpson died. Like, ah, ain't that something?

Hmm. Prayers down. Like, what's there to, what's there to, like, it was, you could, like, in what I would see the way that people handled it, you could still feel the pain. Yeah. Like, I think that there was a legitimate pain that came from Hogan doing this. Like, we let you slide for the NW. Oh, baby, that wasn't that big a thing.

There was a pain. Obviously, these are things of different magnitudes. I want to be clear that I have not saying that they are the same. But the anguish and everything else, and it becomes so wild because I think he was the, there's almost an irony to it, right? Because the character was this All-American character, and he shed that because once he became Legacy Act Hogan, he's not doing the Hacksaw Jim Dug and stuff, right? Like, he's not coming to the ring with the flag anymore.

Like, all of that was dead. and one could argue that he actually made it into an arc where he became what was the new version of what that guy would be. Like if you think about it, the idea of Hulk Hogan carrying the flag would be a mega character tour if you broke that character out now. Like that's the way those symbols and things have been appropriated and used. So it's almost in a way without the flag,

he came back to being like a modern adaptation of the original Hulk of Maine. Yeah, no, that's a really good point. Yeah, he kind of fuses the two. And it's interesting because even today, you talk about how people like still are struggling with this and maybe don't want to let pieces of Hogan go at times. I think if you went out in the world wearing like a Hulkomania shirt, you probably get, you know, some side eye. Like people would assume that you're excusing certain things. But you can wear an NWO shirt. Yes.

And no one will really question it. And a part of it is because it's not only Hogan in the NWO, but the NWO doesn't. really exist without Hulk Hogan. You can, like, NWO shirts are still kind of trendy streetwear. You could still pull that out and people are not willing to let that go, no matter what. I'd say it is. The last time I recall seeing Hulk Hogan in public was at that Nazi rally, or at least it felt like a Nazi rally. That rally in October or November, 2024 at Madison Square Garden, and this was like about nine months or so before he died, But that was the last time, and that was wild.

Like, like, no matter what you thought about what he said on the tapes, that's the one where he's talking that crazy stuff about Kamala Harris and everything. I was like, and it reminded me also of Bobby Bowden, where Bobby Bowden put out a statement before the election, I guess it was in 2020. And he was like, before I die or whatever year it was that he died, he was like, before I died, I want to just, I'm glad I'll have, I want to live long enough to vote for Donald Trump one time. And I was like, oh, that's how you want us to remember you.

your call, buddy. Like, you just said it right there that that's what you wanted. And that's what I always think about Hogan at that. He knew his time was short by the time that rally came around. And he was up there, by the way, in the red and yellow, right? Even though he was, this felt, now that whole thing felt like the NWO. But no, no, no, he put it in Hulkomania colors. Back to my original point about bringing that back to the ark.

But that's how he wanted us to remember him on the way out. It wasn't no shame in it at all. No, not at all. And in fact, there's a scene in that documentary where they film him walking up to that rally. And he is clearly framing it in his mind as, oh, my God, I'm coming back to the place where I beat the Iron Sheek. Like, this is a full circle moment. To your point, this is my last act, how I choose to be remembered. What I want to lend myself to on the way out is going to be this.

He's tying the beginning of Hulkomania and the end of his life together. and they're happening in the same place, both when he becomes a star and as he goes out, his final act, he's clearly very cognizant of that. But the other thing in that documentary is like he's clearly cognizant is a very capitalistic mindset

of trying to give people excuses to still like the old Hulk Hogan because he keeps saying the words, well, I wasn't very political at that point. He keeps dropping that in, at different points during the documentary, almost to try and give, still not apologizing for anything,

but trying to convince the audience. Like, no, it's okay, you could still like 90s Hogan, the 80s Hogan. I wasn't bad back then. And easily, like, by far, the biggest star of wrestling. Like, at Hulk Hogan impression, just about anybody can do one, right?

He's the one, like, the biggest wrestlers of the day, none of them, You can say that this is in part because of like the elimination of monoculture. But no, not really. Like everybody knows who LeBron James is the same way everybody knew who Michael Jordan was. Not everybody knows who Roman Raines is or Seth Rylans or like any of those guys. Like it just doesn't carry.

And that's not just about the time. That's about the magnitude of hope. Yes. He was at that point, like the peak of Hulkomania, I don't think it's a stretch to say he was one of the 10 most famous people on the planet. Yeah. You know, and that's, and there were other people in combat sports that you could say that about at that point.

Like I think Muhammad Ali was, has always been on that list. At that point in time, Sugar Ray Leonard was probably on that list as well. And Hulk Hogan, right? And then you could fill in kind of the rest of that list with other people, but that's an astonishing level of fame. And for the rest of his life, primarily because he never really changed his image at any point, he was probably one of the most recognizable people on the planet, just visually. He couldn't go anywhere without someone being able to say that's Hulk Hogan.

Like, you know, I've spent time around Mike Tyson in my life. And I remember just any time that I'm around him, there's always this wake of people that will follow him whenever he steps outside because you immediately know it's Mike Tyson. And Hulk would have had that same thing all the way until the day he died. And he gave us the greatest heel turn. Of all time. Hey, Corey Ertman, check him out. Basically, if somebody's boxing,

Corey is there to check them out. My brother, I greatly appreciate you. We'll see you soon, Bob. And ladies and gentlemen, thanks so much for joining us here on the right time. We are here for summer hours, so little less than four days a week. Brian Brumley handles everything behind the scenes.

Thank you, sir. Hit the voicemail line 3-2-3-9-6-7-67. Remember, follow the right time. Subscribe, like, rate us, review us. Give us five stars. You only give us four stars. I'm inclined to believe you are. or a hater. We'll judge you guys in a couple of days. Take it easy.