The Right Time with Bomani Jones - Dragonfly Jonez on Michael Jordan, LeBron James & how the GOAT debate made Sports less fun | 8.06

Episode Date: August 6, 2025

On today’s episode, Tyler "DragonflyJonez" of the Jenkins & Jonez Podcast joins Bomani Jones to break down how the Internet & Social Media made sports debate less fun. They discuss the evolution & devolution of Twitter, how the GOAT discussion became intertwined with a "my favorite plater" discussion, and sports TV's influence in the weaponized conversation of LeBron James vs. Michael Jordan. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the right time, a wave original. My name is Beaumani Jones. Thanks for listening wherever you get your podcast. Thanks for watching us on YouTube. Subscribe, like, rate us, review us, give us five stars. You only give us four stars. I'm inclined to believe you are a hater. It is that time of week where we got a guest join us from the Jenkins and Jones podcast.

Tyler, AKA Dragonfly Jones. What's going up, Big Dog? What's going on? I appreciate you having me on, as always. All right. on for the Commonwealth, you know what I'm saying, with the nerd shirt. Oh, yeah, yeah, with the nerd shirt, with the clips box set in the back. You know, it's a great time for Virginia music right about now, you know, this is our summer right about now. I may make that bold distinction.

I thought she was doing that because of that shade I threw the last time. I thought it felt like it. I mean, I mean, we can discuss it. I've, I heard what you said with Mero about how you gave the clips a listen. You know, if you want to get into that, you know, we can't answer for sure. Oh, no, I gave it a listen. I told you, man. It's 12 elbow jumpers, baby. And they, they was get down the floor, they was hitting their spots, they was making their shots. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah. And I feel like the tone is like, you know, it gets a bit boring and a little redundant for you. It's not too excited for you. But my, you know, and I'm with you on that. What I enjoy most about this new clips album is that it's the same brand of rapping the clips

that have given us for 25 fucking years, right? Like, that's what I love about it the most, is that it is, you know, the tried and true formula. And, you know, your, your angle might be that it gets a bit redundant. and it gets a bit monotonous. My whole thing is it is of a bygone era. Like you ever just watched like an MJ highlight reel of him work in the midrange? You like, God, I missed that brand of basketball. You know what I mean? Like that's what the clips feel like to me.

You know, granted, they're sticking to the formula like you're saying, but it's a formula that feels a bit, you know, lost. Well, there are, this is a very interesting lane for all kinds of musical acts, which is the ones whom you tolerate doing. the same shit over and over again. We don't do this for everybody. Great example. We let Too Short rap about the same stuff over and over

again. Now, Too Short will change his sound from year to year, time to time, period to period. But, you know what you're getting from a too short record. You know what he's talking about. It's another good example. Devin the dude is like on a smaller scale for a lot of people, but we know what's going on with

Devin. Devin just living a regular life. And at some point between those three verses, sometimes in all three of those verses, he's going to get something to drink, he's going to get something to smoke, and he's going to get a little something to chill with. Don't matter what she looked like, she's going to be there with Devon to do.

We're there for it. You already know, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. We're there every time. Some people we pop up and we're like, oh, here they go again, talking about that same shit all over again. Not everybody can pull it off. Some people can stay in that narrow,

whatever lane it is, and keep it compelling. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, that's that's kind of always a discussion on social media. Oh, man, this rapper talks about the same thing. Every rapper talks about the same thing. Rap is wrestling, bro. Every rapper has a gimmick. Every rapper has a persona and they stick to that, right? And the whole thing is, is your gimmick entertaining enough for it to be repetitive? You know what I mean? That's what it all boils down to. I remember once my brother saw an interview early on with, with Mani Fresh. And he was talking about the high boys. And he said, I forget, he said, one of us. you know, one of them was smooth. Like, one of them had the money and the jewelry. And the other one, you know, this one had to blocka blocker. My brother was like, oh, so you got the country and the Western.

I understand you. Now, I see nuanced distinctions between different things. For example, I feel like thematically every UGK album is a little bit different. There's dope dealing albums. There's pimping albums. There's Beard Really Cool albums. And they're not exactly the same, right? It sounds like the same stuff.

But like there's there to me when I listen, I'm like, oh, we are approaching this from different angles. I see what you're coming from. And I'm sure that somebody is out here listening to me being like, okay, yes, you just said the country and the Western. Yes, I did. I'm on a story. We just go up for what we go up for. And speaking of going up, this is part of our series on the top 25 athletes of the last 25 years for this year, 2025. We've got five left. We are down to the top five. You go back, check our old episodes, see what we got here. And what we've done is we've done episodes alongside those to give some context to these last 25 years,

not just the games themselves, but the ways that we consume them and the ways that we talk about them. And one way that we talk about sports, it feels like we do now more than ever, is talking about who is the greatest of all time. Now, yes, I'm in the course of doing this. list that is in small part a mockery of list, but a list nonetheless, not being hypocritical by doing that and having this discussion. But I think there's something different about a constant discussion with like a running tally and leaderboard for who is the greatest of all time, all the time in honestly just about anything. Like we can get to other places and talk about other stuff. But I feel like you and I are good to talk about this.

as we are kind of like Twitter OG veterans from back in the day. Quite honestly, we are the father to a few cast styles out here in the way they get out here and tweet. I'll say it out loud. Tyler, I'll only say it to people when they're not around, right? Like, you can get out there, you can look at it, you can see who we gave birth to. This is the truth. Now, I gave birth to a more argumentative style of things out here that I have since disavowed myself from. However, the influence is there, and I have regrets, right?

You are a little bit better at being a bit conversational about it. But what we have seen, though, is in the last 15 years, social media really propagating the idea that not only must you have a candidate for the greatest of all time, you must fight for this fervently every single day. Yeah. I do not feel like that has made our sports more fun. Yeah, I totally agree with you. going back to what you said about how we have been on like social media for like 15 years and it's a perfect conversation for us to have. I totally agree there because I feel like we have seen the evolution. And I feel like now we're kind of at the evolution stage of social media. Like when I first hopped on Twitter, I was like, this is incredible.

This is I still think that Twitter is perhaps the greatest innovation in human connectivity that we perhaps ever seen. Like I can tweet out right now, hey, I got a question for someone in Argentina. And 30 minutes later, someone from Argentina will probably hit me back. Right. Like, it is a great, you know, two to connect us. But it feels like when we first got on, we, I think if you first got on Twitter in the early stages, you were someone who was a bit curious, someone who was a bit intellectually curious or someone who wanted to see what the big deal was right.

There was some curiosity in some angle that drove you to Twitter, right? And you got on there and you interacted with folks and you built community, you know, going back to, you know, to what you said, like, the most. Morning Jones, that was the first interactive community I was a part of, you know, online. You know what I mean? Long live the Morning Jones, right? And I feel like, you know, in its infancy stages on Twitter, when we first hopped on 15 years or so ago, where we were genuinely interested in developing community. We're generally interested in connecting with folks and seeing different viewpoints.

I feel like that shit is dead now. I feel like, like now we're at the point where I feel like it's not. the unifying force it once was, it's something that divides us more. It's something that entrenched us more in our tribalism, right? Like, it's something where you found your people, you know, if you've been on there for, for, you know, 15 plus years or whatever, and you're like, okay, this is who I'm rocking with. Or if you're someone who, if you're someone who just hopped on Twitter in like the last two or three years, you're a maniac. Like, why are you, why did you come to this hellhole? It's nothing but all arguments and bad faith arguments. We try to get off the block, right?

It's like, like, like, we, it's a lot of things that keep us on the block, but we try to get off to block. Yeah, yeah. But the thing about Twitter is, is I can't quit it because it's like, it's like the best news source on the planet, right? Like, you're not, you're not going to have one-stop shop that it's going to give you breaking sports news, breaking, you know, politics news, breaking world event news. Like, you're just not going to find that any other, other place. So that's how it got me. But, but yeah, it's, it feels like, you know, going back to what you said, people have kind of made that their brand where it's like, you know, this athlete is who I'm rocking with. This musician is who I'm

rocked with and this is who I am. So, you know, any, you know, I'm going too bad for them because of, you know, this is me or if you're attacking that artist, you're attacking me by extension, right? And it's just all so tiring right now. I also think another part of it, and I'm curious what you think about this.

I think the goat discussion and the favorite player discussion became intertwined in a way that was problematic, right? Yeah. And so what I mean, mean by that is when somebody says that's my goat, it is not simply that you think that they

are the greatest player, is that they are also your favorite player. And I don't always know, is it your favorite player because he's the greatest or is he the greatest because he's your favorite player? Like for me, these are distinct ideas. My favorite player growing up with Dominique. Michael Jordan is the greatest player of all time. Dominique Wilkins is not my goat. Dominique Wilkins is my favorite player, right? Those are not the same thing. When people, like, and once you would think that the idea that someone is your goat would be a matter of humility, right? Like, hey, I'm just saying, hey, this is me and this is my opinion. But no, no, no, no, no. That's not really what you're saying. Because in all likelihood, you're going to get

out here and you're going to scrap it out to the death about this. Now, of course, this discussion is really a basketball discussion, right? There are places, I think, where the goat discussion would be a lot more fascinating. For example, who is the greatest quarterback of all time has potentially like five or six answers, right? That one there's fun to get into, and I actually think that people wouldn't argue it nearly as hard.

Now, Tom Brady is going to win it in most cases, I don't put a pen in that because that later on because I'm going to talk to like kind of what that gets down to. But it's really become the weaponized discussion of LeBron versus Michael Jordan. And I am curious if this happens on your end as much as it happens on mine, which is the algorithm every day feeds me somebody on either the Jordan or LeBron's side of the debate fiercely. Like those accounts that turned up with blue checks and that you know and get money off of the engagement, somewhere they figured out. this one goes every all day, every day. There is an account making an argument there

with a side of Kobe throwing in there also. Yeah, yeah. Like if you've noticed all these Mews accounts that pop up just devoted to like specific players and all that. But going back to what you said about how it's something that I totally agree that it feels like

something very extremely specific to basketball because, you know, you said Dominique's your favorite, MJ's your goat. Island Alverson is my favorite and Brown is my goat, right? And I feel like there is, I think that Dominique is your favorite and Iverson's my favorite for probably the same reasons because they were our favorite plays when we were kids. Yes. Right. And there's something and there's something there where like, you know, me and Bron, we're contemporary as an age.

I didn't idolize him or look up to them the way I did AI when I was a kid, you know, watching them. Right. Like it's different there. And also there's the whole the whole individuality about how basketball players just make a bigger impact than football players do. Like if we had a goat debate about quarterbacks like you mentioned, the only people who are going to be really going up for L.A. are going to be, you know, of course you're going to have, you know, the historians, the diehards. But it's going to be Broncos fans for the most part. It's going to be, um, Patriots fans for the most part going up for Brady. It's, you know what I mean? Aaron Rogers is a male without a country. I don't know if good packets fans even rock with that dude anymore. But it probably would be a bunch of Packers fans going up for Rogers in that discussion too, right? With basketball, it's all over the place, bro. You know what I mean? It's, it's, it's, it's a sport. where there's a lot of allegiances to players over teams. Yes. It's players over teams.

And there appears to be a generational war among basketball fans about who the greatest player is that is much different than I think from any of the sport. And it's funny because I think it exists in football is just not nearly as antagonistic. For example, you don't hear anybody put Joe Montana in the greatest quarterback of all time discussion anymore. When Joe Montana retired, he was absolutely 100% a candidate for that. He is the OG Tom Brady in that

discussion. Four championships in a nine year period, which I don't think Tom Brady pulled off. Actually, no, he did that second run. I think that he came back around to it. But the four championships in nine years for Joe Montana was huge. This revolutionizing offense that

came around and with big game winning drives that we saw, like repeatedly. That was the thing also with John Elway. Game winning drives in an era where the passing game was neither as sophisticated nor as permitted by rule in the game. We don't, we, we did not grandfather any of those guys in, which is a very interesting place because it's almost impossible to evaluate it because the NFL game right now is so completely different than what the NFL game was back then, right? Nobody now argues that the talent is greater. Da-da-da, everything else. Therefore, Derek Henry is the greatest run about.

of all time. It's fascinating. You don't see anybody do that. Now, running back, that's a fun, well, it used to it could be a fun go discussion except everybody's still playing for number two. We made that Jim Brown so long ago. Yeah, and maybe that's part of what it is, right? In these other games, like

Jerry Rice is the number one running back. I mean, wide receiver of all time. Everybody's playing for number two. We haven't opened that up for discussion like ever. Jordan was also the same way, except the kids decided, no, Oh, no, no, no, no.

We're getting our piece of the rock right here. And it's that guy right there. How could you tell me somebody is better than that guy? And I can totally understand how it is that you would say that when you watch. Yeah, yeah. And also, there are a few outliers, you know, where you see young ins going up for MJ. But it always feels like they're doing that to discredit LeBron for the most part. Yes.

Right? Like, for sure, there are some kids who are really hopping on YouTube, checking out film, and who genuinely, you know, think that MJ's the greatest player of all time. You know, not at, not at all knocking those kids who are like historians and students of the game. But usually if you see like a 23-year-old talking about how MJ is better, you know, MJ is the goat, if you scan their timeline, if you do a search, you'll see that they hate LeBron. You know what I mean?

And that feels like, that feels like all the rules are being thrown out the window because that's not something our generation did. Like, like when MJ was the goat, when you, you know, when we were youngens, we didn't have contrarians saying Kareen was better. I never had in all the days. discussions I had with my homies when we were kids, when we were young as we were in our early 20s about the greatest basketball players of all time. It was always M.J., and I never had a contrarian come out and be like, Kareem. You know what I mean? And Kareem has as good a case

any. I'm not knocking him. I'm just saying that it's just, it's an anomaly that I feel like I'm seeing now where people, where young ins are going against the basketball that they saw in their time and reaching back to the past to say that this guy from the past is better. And granted, MJ is as good at, of course, like not knocking him there. but it just feels like, like, that is just something that that lets me know that in these goat wars, like all the rules go out the window, bro. But also, let me throw something else out there about LeBron. I'm curious what you think about this, because this has never truly happened before.

LeBron is at once the player of the present and the player of the past. And so, yes, he is still playing right now, but that don't necessarily mean he belonged to you if you're calling, let's just say 11 years old, right? Like he's been there forever, but he's the old guy to you, right? Your guy is probably somebody younger, somebody hip or somebody a little bit fresher. But you don't have anybody younger than him that you could really latch on to and then say, no, that's my guy, he's better than LeBron. Because obviously that person hasn't even been in a position to put up a similar type of receipt.

Therefore, your only real option is to jump back and go take. Michael Jordan, right? There's also the interesting place where Kobe stands in this because I, Kobe stands with A D. I was not saying Kobe stands. We talked about Kobe stands last week. But Kobe stands in a similar place where I, Shannon and I talked about this and this idea that people didn't have all this slander for Kobe when he was alive, 100% not true. Kobe was on the raw, he was on the wrong side of everybody's favorite player and had a

legitimate downtime in his career and is actually far more interesting than the two-dimensional figure that people try to create now. That was everybody. Yeah. All right. Yeah. I feel like there's been some reverence afforded to him in his death because the criticism against Kobe were way more personal back then, bro, when he was a lot. Yeah. And now they're keeping it basketball, you know? I can read the room. I've had to go about this somewhat differently. I remember when Kobe died, I was like, ooh, I can't wait to watch Nick's show. I don't know what he's how he gonna do this and it was the same way I was like

ooh I don't know how I'm gonna do this yeah yeah like I remember when he dropped that photo shoot in all white like that was one of our my first memories in the morning Joe's community and we clowned bro we clown let me tell you something I feel like one of the worst parts of Kobe died is that that died with him

we don't we don't feel right what was it what was that right He was dressed like Spah versus Spy and looked like somebody just started playing a page. And I'm always sitting the zoo land in the face like. Yes, yes. Oh, man, it was so many of them.

I was like, who signed off? Ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh. So who signed off on this? I have no idea. But at the same time, I've seen people on the, it's Mike and then it's Kobe. And I'm like, huh, this is interesting because nobody, I never heard anybody say that you had people who thought that Kobe was their favorite player or that Kobe was the best player perhaps in the league.

at different points. And, you know, my hottest take that I don't think is that hot is that Kobe was like a song that was never got to number one on the charts, but it was number two, you know, for a long time, right? A lot of great songs that never made it to number one. I don't think that he had. But at the same time, he has now reentered a greatest of all time discussion in part because I think people feel obligated to be part of a greatest of all time discussion, but also sometimes just want to have their own thing they say, right? It's like the people whose favorite beetle is George Harrison.

It's not that George Harrison didn't write Gray Saul's, but you know that shit ain't true. Yeah. And, you know, I feel like there should probably be a distinction between greatest of all time and best of all time, right? Because for me, LeBron is just flat out the best basketball player I've ever seen. And I will not see that he has a greater legacy than MJ. Two, three Pete's the biggest athlete of our lifetimes, right? Like, MJ is the greatest NBA player of all time.

But the thing is, like, I do feel like, like, Braun and folks who are following after MJ, they've been dealt a raw deal with this rings culture. Because no one's going to, we're not going to see any guys get seven rings. I strongly doubt that. But the thing about it is when during MJ's run, he didn't need those six rings to be the greatest. When he retired after that first three Pete, the narrative was the greatest basketball player of all time is retiring in his prime. Like, we knew there just off the eye test that he only needed three championships to be the greatest that we ever saw. And I'm not sure if we're ever going to get to that again. But I will say the one player who gives me hope that we might debunk all this rings culture shit is that kid in San Antonio, bro.

Wimby, like, because your eye, the shit that you're seeing with your eyes, you have not seen a basketball player do the things that he does. Right. And I feel like he might be the one who might be able to drive that stake in the heart of rings culture and kill it. Because Wimby won't need seven rings for him to be the greatest, you know, of all time in my opinion. you're like bro like like i watched you know his his his preseason game run before his rookie year and i was like this kid has the potential to be the best basketball player i've ever seen in my life like that's all i needed to see bro he has the potential and we'll see if he fulfills it because because he was on a hell of a pace he was going to be a

defensive play he was going to be the defensive play of the year this season before he got hurt right like he's making great time they got some help with there with with the air and fox you know to take some of the load off in there with him too and finally got someone who'll be able to throw him some fucking lobs because he's the He was like the most underused lob threatened in the league. But yeah, man, Wimby might be, he might be the promised one, man, who can finally, you know, kill all this Rings culture, though. That is a great point.

And the problem I think that will come with this is he going to get hated on because he's so gifted. Right. And the thing about Jordan and LeBron both in this is they were preternaturally gifted. Right. Like, you can make the argument about somebody like Yokic, right? if you want to make like a more with less argument, you can go ahead and do that. But Michael Jordan at once was the most talented player pound for pound of his time. And every time I hear somebody say they think Kyrie Irving is the most skilled basketball player

of ever. And I'm just like, have you never watched Michael Jordan play basketball? There is no other answer than Michael Jordan on that one, period. Somebody put a video up yesterday that was three minutes of MJ in the post. And it wasn't just old Mike, right? it was still like 89 Mike it was like 91 Mike who who he was a problem he's such a problem right such a problem lebron shows up and he's an ex-man right like we've never seen anything physically quite like that to also have the nerve to have the brain of a computer and be really good at a lot of

basketball stuff it wasn't as graceful as it was with mike right but i see the argument that people make like, I think I don't, I am down for measures of relativity and allowing people to have their own opinions and everything else. But I think we start talking about who the greatest of best is. There are right answers and there are wrong answers, right?

I think that the answer is Michael Jordan. I think the other people are wrong. But I'm not going to fight you about the fact that you're wrong, right? Like if this was class and you got a question wrong on the test, I'm not going to argue with you about shit you just got it wrong. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, like you said, LeBron was something we never seen before.

the size of Caram alone, a run point, the greatest basketball in mine, I think we've ever seen. I think he's got that distinction as well. I want to go back to what you said about Kyrie, though, about how, you know, he's got the whole most skilled distinction there because that's something that I've just, I'm not going. And I'm a Kyrie fan. I think he's incredible. But I feel like that discussion where they say Kyrie is the most skilled ever, I feel like that is just reducing skill to being someone who's able to get their shot off against tough defenses. I feel like that's what they're saying.

They're saying he's the best playing the league who can get a shot off against a tough defense. which might be the case. Yeah, no argument there. But, bro, like, there was a discussion going on where folks were saying he was better than Chris Paul. And I'm not the biggest Chris Paul fan, but I was like, we got to stop this. When does it stop? Bro, we got to reel it in because Chris Paul is, bro, he is,

Kyrie is not on Chris Paul's level. So I saw that and I found it interesting because the most important skill in basketball is getting buckets, right? I think they look at Kyrie through the lens of, quote, unquote, fundamentals. handles, jumper, quickness, all of the,

not just the get it off in tight spots part, right? But I think that everything that everybody

has ever called a fundamental, they could kind of see in Kyrie. Chris Paul is just the matter.

Chris Paul is the greatest floor razor I think I have ever seen, especially power for pound. At six feet

tall, Chris Paul could dictate the course of a team in a game unlike anybody else.

But again, this gets into what we're talking about, which is objective discussions being clouded simply how much you like somebody. Like a guy from our day and A's that I talk about a lot is Rod Strickland. Right. Rod Strickland is a guy that was a lot of people's favorite player. Beautiful game, for sure.

But we wasn't saying he was fucking magic. Right. Right. Yeah. Like, it wasn't that. But we're here at about the middle. We're going to step out for a second. when we come back, I want to talk about part of why I think this goat discussion has become

so prevalent all the time and get Tyler's thoughts on it right here on the right time. Back here with Tyler, aka Dragonfly Jones talking about goat discussions in sports these days. And so one of my criticisms that I've had of LeBron, and I understand the people that I think I hate LeBron now, in part because he keep doing something that I do hate, right? which is he thinks that he's going to put together a list. And at the end of it all, he's going to present his case. And that case will make it unquestionable that he is the greatest player of all time. Right.

Like being seen as the greatest player of all time matters to him in a much different way. Not in the way of Joe DiMaggio insisting upon being announced as the greatest living ball player, right? Not just as something you say when he walks in the room. He needs it. It seems from here. He needs it to be declared that he's the greatest player of all time because he said he felt like when he won that in 2016, which, God, what an incredible run the postseason of 2016 was, right? He felt like he was the greatest player of all time. And now he needs us all to say it.

That's when he started doing the stuff with putting a fucking crowd on his head and all that other stuff. But I feel like in ways he's a reflection of his time. And when I say that, I mean, we have access to so much data, right? In fact, to the point that in my own life, I make a concerted effort now to consume less data. Like, and I'm sure you've been here on this before. I have a podcast. We have a wealth of data on this podcast. I have to make myself not go look at download numbers.

Right? Like I'll pop in and look at YouTube numbers. But the availability of the data means we are always checking. It's another way to keep us on the internet. Hey, let me go check up my portfolio. Hey, let me go check this. Hey, let me go check that. But there's always a number that you can go check if you want to at a given point in time.

So since we have this availability of data, people are constantly making their cases using data, obviously, selectively. number one and number two with an acknowledgement that people don't have a sophisticated understanding of statistics in most cases. They just do not. So what happens with the LeBron case, for example, is LeBron just keeps stacking numbers on top of numbers, on top of numbers, on top of numbers, on top of numbers, whether the numbers be how long he plays, how many buckets he gets, assists, whatever it is, and it keeps laying out this statistical case, and then that becomes the weaponry that is used.

Like to me, the case for LeBron really got as good as it was going to get in 2016. If he had won another championship in like 2017 or whatever, then I think maybe we'd have kept talking. But after that, that was, that, there was nothing that for me that you were going to do that was going to add to the greatness that you added in 2016, right? The same way, it's not a demerit to me what Mike did with the Wizards. In fact, what Mike did with the Wizards was low-key, a full season playing 38 minutes a game at that age. was bananas. There were all these things. But now, as we start seeing in rap, we got numbers for everything, which then takes this away from being a barbershop discussion to being one that gives people at once, people are more unequivocal in their answers, but also often, I feel like,

using numbers that don't really matter. Yeah, yeah, numbers that for sure didn't matter for our generation. Yes. It feels like, like, you know, I'm going back to what you said about how it's just, you know, discussions are just so data driven, so number driven right now. Like, like, I listen to folks talk about rap and you see the numbers about stream numbers and first week sales. And it's like, bro, y'all sound like y'all are discussing your stock portfolio.

Like, like, how are you examining music through, you know, through that lens? Like, we had a, there was a discussion that went on Twitter this weekend where someone said that, um, Jay-Z didn't have a higher commercial peak than 50. And people got on her about that. Because, you know, Jay-Z is just, he's on that list of people you cannot talk about online, right? Like, he's someone who makes people irrational. And the fact that she stated something that was indisputable. Jay-Z never had a higher commercial peak than 50 cent. Get Richard Dodd trying to error 50 cent and massacre 50 cent was one, was one of the biggest rap stars we've ever seen. There's a very, very short list of rappers who were as big as them. But the thing is, is when that happened, I don't think any of us thought that he took the crown from Jay-Z, regardless of the numbers, right? Like, Jay-Z still felt like the top, 50 might have been the hottest, but it still felt like Jay-Z was the king of that rap shit. The trick bag on that, and let me make sure I get the dates right. Okay, the trick bag on that is, Gear Richard, Dot Trian is Summer 0-3?

February, 03. February, but, but not the release, but the run, right? is really summer old. Like that, that's what we're going through is that summer 03. November 03, JZ, finger quote, retired. It wasn't even really a discussion, right? Jay-Z was asserting his greatest of all-time case at that point with a seven-year career, which, by the way, at that point, was certainly long enough.

Yeah, was I'm pressing. Like, when he said it's never been a rapper this good for this long, we're like, you're right. We haven't seen a seven-year run. Like, like, Jay-Z debuted. in 96 and quote unquote retired 2003, rap went through like seven different lifestyles, you know,

um, um, parameter shifts by then. Like the South emerged as the major players at that time. Like, you know what I mean? Like, like it was just,

it was just so many shifts that happened from 96 to 03. And, and usually, you know, from what we saw before Jay Z's run, it's like you had a two, three album run at the most, you know,

as a rapper. And, and when he said that no one's ever been this good for this long, he was right at that time. LL Cool J. has a Mount Rushmore argument, and he has not put out a classic since he was 22. And that's not the point. You know what I mean?

Like, yeah, it hits after that, right? It wasn't, you know, you see all his hair on my face? Them songs wasn't for me. You get me? I wouldn't try to lounge with that motherfucker. I wouldn't none of that. Yeah. Yeah.

And LL's career is, is the bookends on that are phenomenal because he was the guy, he was the of the 16-year-old kid who Def Jam made their franchise artist. And his run ended, you could say the last hit he really had, was in 2004 Headsprung, Templarland production. Right. So you're the kid who built Def Jam when you came in the game and then you retire going out on a Timberland hit. Like that's just unprecedented.

Right. Within the middle, by the way, having in many ways, with all the acting and everything, the career that all these cast are trying to get. Yeah. Like we under because honestly man, he turned his back on the fellas there. That's really what it came down to. We got to a part where it got to be hard to be a homie, be a fella.

And I hear claiming him, he just blatantly told us, I don't care what you think about me anymore. Yeah. And that's another shift that that has been unique to me. That has been something interesting to me is because when him and cannabis is going out, cannabis drove the nail into what you mentioned. 99% of your fans were high heels. Like that was an insult to say you were making music that's catering. to the ladies. And now online it's like, oh man, you're making scaring the woman music, right?

Like, you can't play this around woman. I don't want to hear that. Like, that's the shift now. That is crazy. That is crazy. I will also say, looking back on that, it is hilarious because cannabis, cannabis wounded that man, right? LL's response basically was, hey guys, I'm an LL Cool J. He's cannabis. Yeah. And that Can I Bus album did not help. Cann't have it's called either. It was like, yeah. Yeah, you were not LL, bro. You were not LL, bro.

You were not LL. It's funny, too, because it is very clear also that LL Cool J still looks at JZ as not LL Cool J. Yeah, Jay Z is his little brother. The infamous story about apparently Jay Z winning some battle against LL and LL is just like, dog, I wouldn't just walking around with bars at that time. I was LL Cool J. What are you talking about?

I went out here ready to battle nobody. And he's telling this story 30 years later, and it's like, oh, this is exactly how you feel about Jay-Z to this day. He felt about Jay-Z like you do some dudes you went to high school with. Like, cats I went to high school with, I'm going to be who I was at high school, no matter what. Is that how it works? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, L. L. L. was a very, very, very, very interesting dude, man. I watched that documentary. Like, that is the documentary that I would watch and would thoroughly enjoy making because he was, let's build an MC out of granite. Let's build him from the ground up.

let's make him let's make the perfect rapper in just about every way and that everybody's going to love him because what made it so annoying about his lip-licking era was homie you ain't even got to do that they with you regardless yeah yeah that's i mean but that's what he leaned into and the thing about it is like like you know for all the the the the ballets he made for all the the the catering that he did to the ladies oh still a tough dude you ain't want no problems with l l-l bruh You know what I mean? Like on the mic or outside of the mic. He was with whatever you wanted, dog.

And he was the first one. Him in Meli Mel, the first hip-hop bodybuilders. Balco rappers, for sure. I tell you this, though, you ever see that rap-a-lot versus, I forget it was Rap A-Lor versus the New York dudes, but with Willie D boxed Meli-H-T, yeah. I remember that, yeah. H-Tal, represent.

Willie D's another interesting dude I would very much enjoy a documentary on. It might have to be NC17, but I would for sure lock in. Every year or two, I have an hour or two long telephone conversation with Willie D. Where Willie D. will just call me to talk. And teenage me cannot believe that happens. An adult me is pretty shocked by it too. Yeah.

Yeah, that's the cleanup man himself. The cleanup man got some true gay. for you though. Cleanup, clean up, clean up and hit me with some true game a couple of times. I was like, I am so fortunate to have this opportunity to chop it up with Willie D. On the telephone. Yeah, I can imagine an hour, two hour long conversation with Willie D. I can just imagine all the quotables for that.

Yeah, I'll tell you more when we are not on here, but it can get to be pretty amazing. But I do wonder, though, when people get to talking about this thing, so to me, I remember one of my good friends from graduate school made this point, Because, look, first take and all these other shows, they all, their replications of the barbershop, right? Now, of course, the problem is the barbershop is at once home of very spirited conversation, but also ignorant conversation in part, right? And so my boy would always make this point that cats are getting the barbershop and they get to arguing about something and they get to going back and forth. And somebody would be like, well, yo, I can go look this up and like, man, don't go look it up. That's not what the point is not to be correct.

the point is just to argue about it, right? But in the barbershop, as long as we're talking about sports type stuff, right, the argument is playful, right? It's like, it's fun, but, and yes, somebody absolutely 100% believes they are right and believes that somebody else is wrong, but it wasn't as tribal. I think that's the thing that we talk about now, the byproduct of social media, is that it has, in fact, become tribal. But there is something to the fact of somebody out there has got the guy that absolutely, for whatever reason, should not be there.

So, for example, my former professor, my advisor, my trusted mentor, Sandy Darity, for whatever reason, he has got Jamal Wilkes is the greatest small forward of all time. Not Larry Bird, not anybody else. It is Jamal Wilkes. Good old number 52. I have never bothered to try to argue this with Sandy because, one, winning an argument against Sandy Dary it's not really in the cars no matter what. But number two, if you have decided that Jamal Wilson is the greatest small forward of all time, logic is not going to sway you from this?

I have never heard that argument. So he thinks Jamal Wilkes is better than LeBron, better than Larry Bird, better than KD. It's specifically Larry Bird, I remember this coming up. Because when we've had had these discussions, LeBron had not really asserted himself. So maybe it has changed. Maybe Jamal Wilson is simply the second greatest small forward of all. time. Yeah, I'm always interested in, especially folks from the older generation of who they're, who, you know, the players they idolize. That's always a fun, you know, stroll to go down for sure.

Yeah, and I try to be careful because as I'm learning as I get older and the kids don't appreciate this point, hey, brother, they was there. They saw it, right? Being there and at some point, they're going to get it because they're going to have to explain this to somebody about LeBron, right? Like, the Victor generation is going to come around and they're going to. to have to, the LeBron people are going to try to explain it and then they're going to have to stop and realize, hey man, I was there, y'all weren't there, and they're going to become that which they despise, right? This is, this is, this is the, the arc of life that all of us managed to go through at, you know, at a given point. And with Jordan, classic example,

the game two, 91 finals against the Lakers, up with the right, down and around to the left. every video replay of that the kids could be like oh here's somebody else doing the same thing here's somebody else doing the same thing I hear you but what I can't make you understand is it felt like the world

stopped spinning you weren't there you had to be there you know another play I feel that way about a guy that by the way is not necessarily the goat but had a somewhat similar claim at points and now gets left out of all these discussions is Dr. Jay and if you go look at it statistically

we make Dr. Jay Dominique basically Like, oh, high-flying dunks. No, Dr. Jay was doing it. They went to the finals. I want to call it four, five times when he was with the sixers, three times and four, three times and four years at one point. But that rocked a cradle dunk over Michael Cooper. And the whole palm when he, when he palmed it and then went under the backboard and finger-rolled it.

But I think you had to be there, right? Like, it don't, it's kind of like when I try to play KRS-1 records to the youngsters to explain that this is the greatest of all. time. It doesn't work. You kind of had to be there. Yeah. Yeah, that is. And it goes back to what I mentioned before about the young ins who are riding in MJ's coattail to discredit Braun. That's what I don't get. It's like you're here for LeBron, which it's so odd to me that folks are taking that angle just to hate. But like I said, there's no rules now. It's the Wild Wild West, bro. I just hate this. So much of it always goes in that direction. Like I think the worst thing to ever

happened to LeBron is, I mean, LeBron's the best thing to ever happen to the format of debate television. Because he was so interesting. The entire way, he led us to asking so many questions about the time we were in, the times that he just left, the people that had come back across his path, all of these things, right? He became so interesting. And then he had, well, it's 2010.

2010 changed everything. Game 5 and game 6 in 2010 where it looked like he was flat out mailing it in. Then with 2011, where he flat out ran out of gas. I think that is the explanation for happening those finals when it came down to the ND, what had to be the most exhausting season in the history of the NBA,

just finally caught up to him. And then everything, that four-year run where he was in Miami, every game was a referendum. Every single one. And if you actually want to make a great, the best argument for him being the greatest of all time is no one had ever withstood, even Michael Jordan, no one had withstood as much scrutiny. And the level of scrutiny that Jordan withstood made him retire after winning those first three.

LeBron went to eight in a row. Yeah. Like during that Miami run, especially like that the first couple seasons, every game was a moment. Like I, like Paul Millsap, you think about him, the first thing that comes in my mind is that, that early season game when he cooked Miami. You know what I mean? Like every game was a moment. Like you said, so much of sports talk television revolved around that like every night it was do or die with the referendum.

Like we even criticize his performance in an all-star game. You know what I mean? Brother, I started doing around the horn in October of 2010, right? So this is just before that Miami season. the heat were A1 on every show I felt like I did for four years in a row. You can't get a regular season basketball game into A1 of an ESPN show at this point just because it was a regular season game for straight years. And because they did the not one, not two, not three, after they won one championship,

It was like, cool. I guess that's just the beginning, huh? Yeah. Okay. Nothing was proven. Nothing was settled. Nothing was adjudicated. We're going to be A1 again every single game.

Yeah. And it makes me wonder, you know, for the future of the NBA, like, are we going to need the face of the league, if you want to call it that, the greatest player in the league? Are we going to need that person to be as divisive as as polarizing as LeBron is? you know what I mean for it to be good business for the league. I think the face of the league need be amazing. First, second, third, fourth, and fifth, right? Like, I think that is the key. And they got all, we never forget this about the,

I've been saying about the face of the NBA. We keep acting like the NBA chooses it. The face of the NBA for a very long time was Alan Iverson, and I assure you that was not the choice of the commissioner, right? For better or worse, he became the face that the league had. I think the league's problem is, and this is, why, and I guess on a later show, I'll talk more about this, but this league that apparently Maverick and those guys are trying to put together, you ain't got no team that nobody

care about, therefore this will not work. It takes decades to make people care about a team in their own market. Remember when the Arizona Cardinals used to always play role games against the Cowboys? Because it took 30 years to build a fan base and to make people care, right? Now, never mind the fact that NBA basketball is really the only truly watchable basketball that the world has to offer. College basketball used to be watchable. It is not watchable anymore. Like, if it's not high-level NBA basketball, some things are very fun to do, but not fun for people to watch on camera unless you are the best of the best. You know what I mean? This is number two on the list of things that fits that description. That's not going to do it.

But I think you're right. As this goes, like whenever LeBron retires, which may never happen, he's decided he's going to go literally until the wheels fall off. He's going to be a school transition into who's next. And I don't even know who the next goat candidate is going to be. Brown might have one more team in it from the passive aggressive shit we've seen him doing at the Clippers facilities taking pictures. Yeah, I don't know, bro. Like, yeah, I don't know when Bron is going to hang it up.

But I don't know, man. I feel like it all comes down to like me thinking that Wimby might be our hope here, bro. I think Wimby can possibly save NBA discourse, man. here's what I think is going to make Wemby even more interesting in the go conversation. He appears to be fascinating. This whole thing of going and kicking it with the monks. Yeah, yeah. He went out there, kicked it with the monks, shaved his head.

Like, I'm going to tell you, you know, when I first knew that, okay, like, I see all the physical attributes. I see that, you know, all the physical talent. When he was during the All-Star game, when they were doing the skills challenge, and Aunt Edward was out there goofing off. And Victor was taking that super serious. And they reached, you know, they hollered at him about comments about that. And he was like, you know, I understand some guys don't take this serious. You know, they want to have fun or whatever.

And he said, and he took a pause. And he said, but winning is fun to me. And I was like, oh, this might be, this kid might be it. I'm like, oh, this, this, this, he might have it, bro. I want to get better at French so that I could get to a place where I can interview him in French because that's when he spit that real. What he said about Rudy Gobert that he will never win defensive player the year again. Hey, he was going to make good on it until he got injured. Also, my favorite quote for him of all time. And I don't remember if this

was in French or English, but it was when he was in the Nike Hoops Summit. And he asked about Schoon Henderson. He was very talented. He would be the number one overall pick if I had never been bored. Not if I didn't come out of his year. I'd have never been born. That is just a wild place to take it, man. But he's right. He's absolutely right. Well, he turned out not to be right because Brandon Miller was born. But at the time, he was 100% correct.

We would have been talking about Schoonernerner's the number one pick. If this alien had never been born of woman, then okay, cool, it would have gone. Yeah. But no, this is it. And I think you raised an interesting point that we get to at the end here, which is when LeBron retires, do incessing goat conversations go with him? Yeah. I mean, and the thing about it is, is it feels like a double-edged sword, right? Like, it feels like we overdid the goat conversations, but we for sure needed to discuss

LeBron in that, you know, capacity as well. But where do we find that balance? Where do we find that balance, like I said, that we had for MJ, where he didn't need to win 12, you know, to beat Bill Russell's 11? We knew after three that he was the greatest of all time. Like, where are we going to find that balance where, of course, you're going to need the accolades, the accomplishments, the hardware, the championships, etc. but where does the blend of that with the eye test come in, right?

And it goes back to the whole thing with rap and the numbers where, where, okay, of course, you know, to be the top guy in the game, you got to do numbers as well. You got to have, you know, some number one albums, some hit singles and all that. But the talent is what, you know, presides over everything else. Like, I don't know if we're ever going to get back to that in rap and the discourse, but I think we can get back there in NBA discourse.

Yeah, like, I think part of what happened also with Mike was like, Bobby Knight said that Michael Jordan was the greatest player he had ever seen in 1984. Now, do I think that part of that was Bobby Knight and needling Dean Smith for having not won a championship with Michael Jordan, whom they eliminated in the Sweet 16 that year? Possible. Always on the board. But Jordan being who and what he was, he became basketball Babe Ruth. Now, Basketball Babe Ruth could have been Will Chamberlain, but he didn't win enough, right? Jordan then kind of became basketball Babe Ruth, like the unequivocal, like, this is our guy, which then made it with LeBron where at once we were like, oh, he could be that good,

but then that meant time to scrutinize it, right, at every turn or whatever. Victor is the only one, I think you're right, that has the possibility of coming out so hard that we got to entertain it. But I think for Victor, that will require hurrying up and getting to the finals because we forget LeBron got to the finals in year four at age 22 carrying bums. Yeah, that finals run in 07 was ridiculous. That roster he won 66 with in 2009, go take a look at them. Go go take a look at that roster that he won 66 games with in 2009.

He had Ben Wallace, 2009 Ben Wallace as a starter, getting started minutes. Have you seen this thing that's been about. it around, where it's like, show me the picture of your Celtic Shack. And it'll be like Patrick Ewing in a, you know, with the magical whatever. Brother, the one for the calves, it was like 12 different people. And all, not all of them played with LeBron, but a lot of them did. Like, it was like Sean Kemp, who was actually good when he first got there. But like, Clyde Fraser, Sean Kemp, actually could have thrown Nate Thurman on there if they wanted to.

But after that is Ben Wallace. It was Shaq. it was Sean Marion it was some of these cats that they brought in Dwayway and Derek Rose all these cats they brought into play with LeBron later Yeah yeah I mean You know you say Chris Paul is

Perhaps the best ceiling razor I don't know man I don't know I well yeah I forgot about that guy Yeah yeah yeah yeah I think Broad might check that box I guess I think I'm thinking about it this way Chris Paul is a ceiling razor for the team But all I mean a floor razor for the team But also a floor razor for the team but also a floor razor for these

individual players. Yeah. Like Chris Paul turns Tyson Chandler into something completely different. LeBron, when he gets them cats, they never look better than you thought they were. Does that make sense? Like, you're always just like, damn,

look what he did with Moe Williams as opposed to, I didn't know Moe Williams could be that good. Yeah, yeah, because the thing about LeBron is he doesn't need you to play outside of yourself. He needs you to play within his system. Yes. Right? Like, I mean, so often when we talk about

what players are going to be a good fit for, for Bron, That basically boils down to. Is this a guy who can cash out on Braun's driving kicks and knows how to, you know, move without the ball? Like, that's it. You know what I mean? That's all you really need to do. Like, Braun is a system.

LeBron's brand of basketball is a system where you're going to, you know, you're going to move without the ball. You're going to space the floor. You're going to, like I said, cash out on the driving kicks. You're going to find your spots. And you're going to, you know, make it count when he finds you. Like that's basically all you need to do to jail with Bron. And if you buy into the system, you're going to win 60 plus games. you're going to go to the finals. That's pretty much it. And now, we'll just argue about it some more.

That is Tyler, aka Dragonfly Jones. Check out the Jenkins and Jones podcast available on Patreon. My brother, I appreciate you. I appreciate you, man. Always a blast, my dog. All right, man. And ladies and gentlemen, thanks so much for joining us here on The Right Time. We do this three times a week. Ryan Brumley handling everything behind the scenes. Thank you, sir. Remember, follow the right time. Subscribe, like, rate us, review us, give us five stars. You only give us four stars. I'm inclined to believe. You are a hater. We'll talk to you guys in a couple of days. Take it easy.