The Right Time with Bomani Jones - How the NFL crushed Colin Kaepernick’s protest | Bomani Jones & Howard Bryant

Episode Date: August 26, 2026

Bomani Jones is joined by Howard Bryant for the third episode of a historical retrospective series looking back at Colin Kaepernick, a decade after his initial protest. In this episode, Bo and Howard focus the conversation on the timeline starting in 2017 and how the aftermath of the protest impacted Kaepernick's career. They reflect on the reality of league collusion as Kaepernick remained without a job despite proving he was a capable NFL quarterback. They trace how secondary narratives formed to critique his play, while the backdrop of Donald Trump's presidency drastically shifted the national conversation. The duo breaks down the response from other athletes, the formation of the Players Coalition, and how the NFL ultimately co-opted the protest with social justice initiatives. They relive the chaotic events of November 2019 surrounding Kaepernick's scheduled NFL workout in Atlanta, which resulted in an impromptu relocation to a local high school. Ultimately, Bo and Howard evaluate the immense power of the opposition that mobilized to crush athlete activism and the lasting legacy of a quarterback who forced a national conversation on race and labor. . . . Subscribe to Supercast for Ad-Free Episodes: https://righttime.supercast.com/ Buy 'The Right Time' merch: http://therighttimebomani.com/ Subscribe to The Right Time with Bomani Jones on Spotify, Apple or wherever you get your podcasts and follow the show on Instagram, Twitter, and Tik Tok for all the best moments from the show. Download Full Podcast Here: Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/6N7fDvgNz2EPDIOm49aj7M?si=FCb5EzTyTYuIy9-fWs4rQA&nd=1&utm_source=hoobe&utm_medium=social Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-right-time-with-bomani-jones/id982639043?utm_source=hoobe&utm_medium=social Follow The Right Time with Bomani Jones on Social Media: http://lnk.to/therighttime Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Wave. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the right time, a Wave Original. My name is Beaumani Jones. Thanks for listening wherever you get your podcast. Thanks for watching us on YouTube. Subscribe, like, rate us, review us, give us five stars. You only give us four stars. I'm inclined to believe you are a hater.

This is our third episode in our series, looking back on 10 years since Colin Kaepernick sat by the water cooler during the national anthem. Like sometimes we forget that that's exactly how it went, but that was the thing. So we have talked already to Charles McDonald about Kaepernick, the player. We talked with Jason Goff about the year 2016.

And then the next stage of this process, 27 to 2019, we will talk to our good buddy, the author of this year's book that remains on my desk for every time that he comes on, Kings and Ponds. Check it out. Still available in stores.

Is it Howard Bryant is the soft kind out yet? Next year. Next year. Okay. So then you'll be able to like put it places and bend that bitch up. You know what I'm saying? You ain't just got a, it ain't just going to be a concussive situation. I'm watching people. I'm like, man, y'all treat books badly. Yeah, I am so kindled out just to save the space.

Really? Yeah. Like I need to start doing the thing where instead of buying on the Kindle, I rent on the Kindle, and then buy the ones that I like really want to keep. Yeah. I went backwards. I started buying, I started buying books, hardcover books. I started to buy everything again. Removable media. I'm tired of everybody having my password. I'm tired of the fact that I can't get rid of my Yahoo ID

because all my movies and whatnot on Apple are tied to it. And my books are tied to it. I'm like, yeah, I buy my movies now. I bought a DVD player. I bought a Blu-ray player. I went back. I've gone back to the future. No, I'm here for physical media.

not here for looking around all these books. Like that's the, that's the thing. But it's time for me to travel, I'll knock out two, three, four books. For real. I'm also all about Captain Carrier. So, anyway, we will get back to all of those things. But first,

I broke this up time-wise to start this at 2017 because I think it's interesting that, like with golf, I'll talk about stuff like, you know, do you remember where you were when you heard this happen, right? And when you first got the statement from Kaepernick, which I think was important because what differentiates Kaepernick for just about everybody was the clear articulation of what it was that he was protesting with no punches pulled, where you had guys like Marshall Lynch, for example, who in 2017 comes around to a guy who does not take a knee,

he just sits by the water cooler, but he never answered a question about it. And now Marshawn Lynch, of all people, has all the money coming in from all of the places, right? But to me, and you tell me if I'm wrong here, we got through the 2016 season, 2017 comes and the first thing that we start with is, hey, nobody's giving this guy a job, right? Like after a season where he demonstrated, if nothing else, that he was a capable NFL quarterback. Not one person.

Not one team was like, hey, why don't we bring that guy in? In a sport that is quarterback deprived. Yes. I mean, that to me, was the interesting thing because what I remember most about that time period, if we're talking 2017, yes. The first thing was, was the minute the season was over, it was done, right? I think it was January.

They immediately released him and said that they released him early to give him a chance to go find a market. There was no market. Then things began to coalesce around secondary narratives, which was, well, he was never a starter anyway. And then suddenly, the pile of, the pile of, you. on that he was not a good player and that this should not be a surprise that he doesn't have a job because he's not a good player. That to me was one of the big things because you could see

the industry was coalescing around something and when that happens, I'm not all conspiracy theory on it, but there's absolutely a conspiracy going on here. It was like the league was not going to sign him. And then when you start having owners talk about how they couldn't, you know, anger their fan bases, you knew that this conversation about Kaepernick was taking place at a much higher level than than football operations. This was taking place at a league level, at an ownership level. And that was happening at the exact same time that you have an inauguration. Donald Trump's now the president. And on top of that, you still have him not speaking.

So there's obviously a strategy taking place both on his side and on the league side and then obviously with what's happening nationally that is creating this sort of perfect storm for what's about to happen, which is the clear articulation by the time you get to training camp and the draft and everything else, that he's not going to have a job. Yeah. Like, I think it is an important distinction between 2016 and 2017 that, and, you know, now that were 10 years removed from that election, there will be young people who will never believe this, but like, we didn't think Trump was going to win.

Like, it was the first legitimate upset in a presidential election since the year 1948, right? Where it was just like, wait a minute, what? we thought at this point with the technology and the polling and everything else, we got a pretty good idea how these things are going to go in going into it. Like even the black dude, we knew he was going to win both times going in that. Trump was a massive upset. So we had everything that happened with Colin in 2016, but the backdrop was not and now Trump is emerging, right?

That didn't happen. Once you got to 2017, the backdrop on everything. thing was Trump. And you had a non-insignificant number of people who looked at the situation was like, okay, well, look, Trump's the president now. Now everything is going to be different, which I admit that I didn't really think, right? Like, I had always felt like this game is set up to a degree where no one person can change. It's designed to prevent, like, seismic change. Like, the point is to induce some level of gradual change. And what did change, though, very quickly, I even know if it really changed.

But the backdrop of the country felt totally different, and then you're right. It was suddenly we're going to let Colin get out here, and so he can hurry up, and he can find a job, and then nobody wanted to give him this job. And then it felt in a way, because I'm not conspiratorial too much either. But do you remember when the game decided to destroy public enemy? Mm-hmm.

Right? After, I went with Professor Griff. Yeah, but it was a gradual process. But it is the one, like, actual factual, like, conspiracy. I feel like actually took place. Now, Professor Griff got out here wild. He did. I believe the quote was that the Jews are responsible for 70% of the weakness of the world. I don't know how you calculate this number. I love the 70% number. Yeah, he basically said Jews are like water. Like, I don't know, I don't know how he determined that 70% was it. But

Chuck had to figure out how to handle that. Didn't I go so well. If I fired Professor Griff, everything else. But what I remember is as it went when you got to like 93, 94 and gangster rap had come out. And P.E. had decided to take a stance that was critical of that. If you go back and read the reviews of the music at our message album, which is actually not bad, you go back and read the reviews of that, it was savage and it was unyielding and it was across the board that it just seemed like whether it was the village voice or whether it was the source. They were all just shitting. on it like, nope, we're getting this out of here. This isn't, we're not doing this thing anymore.

And the head of the snake is going to wind up being taken out. And you just, like, I tell you can go back and read it. You'd be like, wow, that all feels like really extreme. And with Colin, it was one thing that maybe you had some people try to make the argument that, you know, he wasn't good enough to play. But it went so far where you have people making the argument that, well, you know, the problem is nobody really runs the read option anymore. or people run the read option to this day, right?

Like, people were saying things that were just actually factually incorrect when it seemed very obvious. Like you say, in a league where there aren't enough good quarterbacks to fill out the teams, let alone three quarterbacks on every team, right? A quarterback that had been to a Super Bowl, all of these things. Nope, nowhere to be found on an NFL roster. Nowhere. And in fact, we didn't talk enough about.

to fact that Kyle Shanahan, you know, a guy that could do the things Kyle could do would probably be pretty helpful in the offense that he had. Nope, not even thinking about it. They brought him Brian Hoyer. They brought him Brian Hoyer. And let's not forget, they gave Jay Cutler, Miami gave Jay Cutler, what, $10 million? Yeah. And he was, he played five games the year before.

And so, I mean, it was anybody but him. Anybody but Colin. And that was very clear. And I think that with the other piece of that, too, that was. really interesting and you know when you think about the 10 years of it it in the public enemy the public enemy comp is a good one because at some point they'll remind you who you work for and it doesn't make it different and a lot of times you'll see it in you know obviously you'll see it in the black industries a lot more it'll be a lot more pronounced because they're going to need the the

black talent to coalesce around this to protect itself. Because now what you're really talking about is you've got a fracture here that you can't just walk away from. Are you going to stick to what is taking place or are you going to protect your money? Because when you have these fractures, the industry, the institution is going to rely on you to protect it. Otherwise, you'll be the one out of a job. And we saw that with, especially with the black athletes, we saw the black athletes immediately coalesce around the narrative that Colin had cost himself. Remember Michael Vic, of all people, Michael Vic was taking the high moral ground. You know, maybe he should get a haircut. Remember all that? Maybe he should just cut his hair and he should just fall in line. And then there was Ray Lewis, of all

people who had so much to say about Colin Kaepernick and then the league let him say it you know and so when that was happening it was very obvious to me at least and obviously to a lot of other people it wasn't rocket science that if you were going to stay in this game you were going part of you staying in the game part of your loyalty was to criticize Kaepernick was to really sort of circle around him and make him and isolate him. And I don't even know sometimes if people know that they're doing this, if it's just the momentum that takes place. And certainly from a media standpoint, it takes place from a sourcing standpoint, where are you getting your information? Right. Is your information original or is your information simply repeating the people who want Colin Kaepernick to be

out of a job? And I always wonder about this, Bon, I always wondered about your thoughts about this. I don't think we've ever talked about this is the thought that I've always had is how, How much do you think that those guys knew that this was going to be permanent? You know, the Michael Vicks and the Bray Lewis's and everybody else who had something to say. And let's not forget, you know, Dak Prescott and all the other players, everybody, you know, the whole power of the NFL and of professional sports in a lot of ways came down on one guy. That's not an accident. And everyone's got to take a little piece of that too. Yeah.

Or a big piece of it. Yeah, I can say, that's where I say, for me, the P.E. Comp comes in. It's like, damn, it's raining from everywhere. That's right. It's like the Apocalypse 91 album was the 2016 season. Like, okay, we're still letting this. We're still letting this go a little bit, right? Then it was like, nah, nah, no, no.

We've had enough. And to me, in it all coming down in that way, I think it leads to a point that I think is very important, which is if it was just about business, then you didn't need that. Because if it was about business and you're making the argument that you are responding to what the fans are going to do, then you don't need to sell the fans on how they already feel, right?

Like, they get to speak on it, and then it goes from there. The truth is, people will watch this goddamn football no matter what. And by the way, if you need an example of that, all the people that said that they would quit watching football because of Kaepernick, who went back to watching football, right? Immediately. Yeah, it be calling me, right? Like, people cannot stop themselves from going back into watching it. So when they made that argument, it was just like,

no, well, I just don't think the fans are going to show up, right? It's the same argument behind the Washington commanders. We can't change the name from Redskins to that because the fans want it. You can't name one person. Or maybe you can name one or two, but not enough that actually matter. The reason they stopped watching them is because they were fucking sorry. It wasn't because of the name of the team. But all those arguments came down.

No, none of them. And from where, though, that's the piece of it that always gets me. Right. is the way that this whole industry sort of knows how to get in line. So much for the independent press and the independent thought. And now we know everybody in the network is going to line up because we know where the checks are coming from. Right.

But we also know where the sentiment is going to come from outside of the game because anybody who wants to get inside the game is going to have the right attitude. Right. And I think one of the things about this, when we were talking about coming on this, this program, this show, to talk about this specifically, one thing that had always been hitting me for a while now was not just about Capric, not about what Colin did and what Colin didn't do. And we've spent a lot of time talking about that. But how well organized his opposition grew over the next several years. From 2017 on, it wasn't just what Colin did or what Colin didn't do. It was how now the IOC is not going to allow kneeling.

The whole sports industry had a response to this, right? That's really to me, when I think about the legacy of Colin Kaepernick. I don't really think about CAP necessarily. I think about how quickly his opposition mobilized to crush protest for the next several years. And by the way, that's still ongoing. Yeah. Like they had a, they had a plan to crush him when it is clear that he did not have a plan on this in the first place, right? I do not say that as a judgment of him. I don't think he thought this was really going to be that big of a deal. And, you know, and then it mushroomed into everything that it was. But like, even the idea or the

act of kneeling, it became this very powerful statement to the point where people were, forget that that isn't even how it began in the first place to the point where the kneeling came to then, you know, we both know this. Once you put something into the world and no longer belongs to you, it becomes whatever it becomes. And that shit became whatever people needed it to be, right? Whatever it was, it became just the act of defiance. And it's crazy to think that not standing up for a song could be like the most defiant thing that one could consider that you were doing. But it became, that impactful because people saw the reaction and how strong it was and also a certain measure of courage that it took for him to stand. And the reason it took that courage for him to stand is that

suddenly everybody saw. That's right. And it was also the articulation. It was the articulation, as you said, to start this. It wasn't just, he wasn't out there saying, hey, you know, give peace a chance. He was like, no, you are attacking black people. You're not attacking protesters. You're not, you know, you're not pro-green peace. You know, we're not talking about climate. We're talking specifically about black people. And that is what inflames a lot of this. Or if not all of it, because one of the arguments that I've always tried to make on this is that if Cap,

if Cap was like, no, no, I'm just here for world peace, man. Just the world is a messed up place. No, it was this specific articulation. Specific. No, I am here because you. Your police are killing us. That's the fight right there. That's the gasoline.

That's the wick. That's the kindling. That's the whole thing. And there's no way around that because that's what inflames the anger. That's why people get so upset. That's why this turned into what it turned into. And especially because it was police as well. Like the articulation of what Colin did.

The one thing I will say about whether he had a plan, whether he had a strategy, whether he didn't, whatever you want to say. The one thing he did say was that the articulation of why he was doing it could not have been clearer. Right. And that is, there's nothing more power in those moments, powerful in those moments, in those times as clarity. And again, it was very clear that the decision had been made. We're just shutting this down.

Yeah. Right. Like, we're not, we're not, we're, we've decided that this of all. all the things that surround this lead, this is the thing that we're just not going for, right? Well, that's why the Ray Lewis piece was so fascinating. And that was why, you know, the Michael Vic piece was so fascinating because what it told me was that we can handle all the stuff that you all do to each other. But this guy's messing with our money. Yeah.

And this guy is affecting us. And this guy is affecting the way that, not only the way that we see labor, because let's not forget, this is a labor issue. There was nothing. Every battle that was taken place on the political front was taking place in triplicate between the players association and the league

in terms of power, in terms of, you know, this is where this whole player empowerment, athlete activism, where all this language came from. And what I found most defensive about it, was it was Ray Lewis's Hall of Fame speech when he was up there and they were all laughing and clapping and Ray was doing his sermon. And this is all happening at a time when Colin Kaepernick

is out of a job. And I sat there and I'm watching that speech and I'm looking at it and I'm thinking they are completely comfortable with you because you reinforce what you reinforce what they think of us, you know? And they'll accept, you know, you'll pay your penalty for the dog fighting and then, you know, whatever went down in Atlanta with Ray Lewis and all of those things. But when you show a level of intellect

and you show a level of history and knowledge and concern for an understanding of where we are as people, as people, as a people, they destroyed you. And, you know, that to me was the first thing that was really the most, and the number of the players that went along with it. And then, of course, then, you know, I don't know if we're going too quickly ahead of time, but then, you know, then you immediately get into labor because now you've got the Kaepernick faction on one side and you've got the, you know, the players,

coalition on the other, this NFL owner-led movement, once again, all rooted around money and very little of it around principle. And then it comes down to the leadership and whole thing about, okay, is it possible to have a movement? Can we do this? And how close to the breast do you want to stay, players? And so to me, like all of this did a certain level of exposure. It exposed It exposed the players as, you know, still just being employees. They're still just little boys with big muscles who sell products. And it also exposed the question of movements in general. Can you be part of something like the NFL and maintain any sort of independence?

Probably not. And then, of course, the third thing is when everyone was talking about empowerment, how much power do you have if you lose everything by opening your mouth? Right. And it also, I think, got to the power. of narrative in the sense that a major difference between Colin Kaepernick and Michael Vic is that there is a path there was a path to redemption for Vic there was a path to redemption for Ray Lewis there was no path to redemption for Kaepernick because he didn't do anything

wrong that's exactly right right like there's nothing like there's no way for him or no realistic what is he saying sorry for what do I need to be redeemed for yeah there's no way he was going to turn this around in a way I'm sorry I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Yeah, the white folks going to be like, yeah, you know, I think he's learned from what happened, you know? Like, that's like there was, there was nothing to turn it around and people who feel like he was, that he did something wrong. You're never going to get that out of him, right? And so unless he was going to become an entirely different person or like shortened the Muhammad Ali arc and progression, right?

where if Baham and Ali adores Ronald Reagan in 1984, but imagine if Baham and Ali had endorsed Richard Nixon in 1972. That was basically what it would have taken for Kaepernick to have brought this thing all the way back around. It was like, no, there was nothing that had been done wrong. There was nothing he could do to change those people's minds about him. And I think a very important point, and we're going to get to this a little bit,

and you talked about this also, is the fact that he didn't ask for permission to do that. what he did, right? To make the statement that he made, it was entirely him. Just one day deciding, you know, you know what, I'm not giving up my seat. I am going to stay right here. Yeah, that's right. That's right. And I think that, and that is the, the thing where what was he supposed to do in terms of forgiveness? Forgiveness for what? Right. Right. I mean, that is the, And every time you get to this piece when it comes to him, that's the question you have to answer. Well, I just think he's handled it the wrong way. Do you? Right. Do you think he's handled it the wrong way?

You know, all these people who would wear those t-shirts, I'd be walking around the airport and you'd see all these, you know, white dudes with their t-shirts, you know, stand for the flag, kneel for the cross. Okay, all right. And these are the same guys who stormed the Capitol. Yep. I think there's another way to do it. And I think to me, and obviously this is just my own thoughts, but that combination is what killed any idea of athlete activism or player protest or any of it, because those dudes did nothing.

The athlete response to January 6th was non-existent. And that was the slap in the face to everything that they had said about the players. who were quiet for 60 seconds. And all these dudes who were like Blue Lives Matter, and policemen got killed in January 6th, and they tried to say it wasn't even a riot. And the players didn't say a goddamn thing.

Nothing. Yeah. You know? And that, to me, is, there was one sentence that really hit me when that was all happening, which was they're telling us, this is theirs.

All of this. belongs to them. It's the difference between renters and owners. How are these very same people who were going bananas five years ago about a CVS being on fire in Baltimore saying nothing about this? And the difference is that you can't have an insurrection on your own property. They believe this is theirs. The CVS didn't belong to the community in Ferguson or Baltimore, whichever CVS we're talking about. But the capital is white people are like, well, this is ours anyway. How can we can't have a riot on our own property? And the ballplayers didn't say anything.

And that includes the basketball players. That includes the WMBA. That includes all of them. And they hadn't been heard from since. Well, coming up next, I want to talk about that element and how the Trump of it all came up in 2017 to help lead us to where we are now. Look, if your supplement shelf needs a reset, now's the time. GNC's semi-annual Live Well Sale is happening August 13th through August 26, with Bogo 50% off almost everything.

Whether you're restocking your protein and creatine, grabbing your everyday essentials, or finally trying something new, this is the moment to build a routine that works for you. From protein and creatine to hydration and energy essentials, you're, you'll be a new. can find the pieces to keep your routine moving. It only happens twice a year, so don't miss the chance to stock up, save, and get ready for what's next. Don't wait. The sale won't last long. Shop at gnc.com slash sale. All right, we are back with Howard Bryant. So the most 2017 thing to happen. I feel like maybe in all the 2017 things to happen. Is when Trump came out. You're going to go where I think you're going to go?

When Trump came out to call the football player's sons of bitches. Right? What is that a rally? He was just up there and he was like, oh, yeah, fire the sons of bitches. He's like in Alabama, wasn't he in Tuscaloosa somewhere in there? Yeah, yeah. He said, it wasn't responsible. He said if the guys were going to protest during the national anthem,

he said to fire the sons of bitches. And that was the thing. That got the football players riled up. that hair, Rex Ryan, who in 2016, was on stage at a Trump rally, sitting on ESPN, being like, hey, wait a minute, this isn't what I signed up for. I thought it was going to be this then to third. Now he's talking bad about football players. God damn, that was the line for you, but that was like the line for America.

It felt like that made this the giant sports story. And it also led to the first time, at least to me, that you saw a widespread, support, at least for the spirit of what Kaepernick was doing. Because if somebody once told me, you have to understand that the NFL Players Association is maybe the largest group of black conservatives in America. That is not a revolutionary bunch of dudes. It is not a culture. Yeah, it's not a culture that spawns a lot of individualism.

It is very top down. It is very much influenced by white evangelism. Like, there are a lot of these things. and also desperation. Yes, right. Because they don't control their money. Correct. And they know that and their money isn't even guaranteed. But Trump called with sons and bitches.

And now next thing you know, they kneel it all over the place. You got cats throwing up fists. You got dudes doing all the things. Why were they doing them? Great question. It doesn't necessarily have the clearest answer. I actually think it does. I mean, I think it has a very clear answer.

I mean, because it's one thing. when you're attacking the players. It's another thing when you're attacking the workforce. Labor. Jerry Jones is taking a knee with the players on the sidelines. Jerry Jones,

who came out and said that he would release any player who protested on his team. They realized that this went from a political problem to a workforce problem. Yeah.

Well, the reason I say what they were doing is not necessarily clear is as we just said before. Everybody had their own explanation. They had their own reason. Yeah, for whatever it is they were doing. That Jerry Jones thing is interesting, though,

because in a way that almost foreshadows a lot of things in 2020, where all of a sudden they looked up and they're like, shit, man, these dudes are mad. We just got to get through this week or two or something like that. But these dudes are mad. Jerry Jones went out there with his team and locked arms with him and took a knee before the national anthem. That is one of the most amazing. I don't even know what the word is to use type of,

because Jerry, to be fair to him, I always felt like Jerry was in a bit of a bond. Jerry knows that he got more black fans than anybody else. Jerry knows he got more white fans than anybody else too, right? Jerry knows this National Anthem shit is bad for business. For bad for business. Jerry also knows these dudes can kind of shut this whole thing down if they all decide to. And I like that my players like me. Mm-hmm.

What do I do? And he threaded that needle so, precisely in that. And also perfectly. Yes. Because if there's one thing, like when I think about black people, especially professional athletes, because you have to add the money to it. Like, they can check in and check out whenever they want because a lot of them are really, really rich. Right? I don't know how, you know, how you spend your money is up to you, but how much money you have is a lot of times in, you know, not in dispute. And so I always refer to us in a lot of ways as sort of crumbs

for us starving people. All we need is the gesture. And then that just calms us down. Just show us that you love us. Just let us know that you care about us. And Jerry, Jerry is Eddie DeBardolo times 500 in terms of how he lets his players. Then players, I mean, like in the Cowboys doc on Netflix, which I thought was very, very good. the number of players. Jerry knows how to tap into his players. They love Jerry. That's why the Players Association, that's why they can't strike. Because them players, they love the owners more than

they love each other because of the history of it all. And also because they know who signs the checks and they know, once again. And if how many owners do you have? How many bosses? How many bosses? do you have that if something goes down and you end up in the clink, you can call him first. Right. You could call Jerry. You could call Jerry. And those guys swear by him. And he's the face of the league like it or not. I don't care if they haven't been to the Super Bowl in 31 years. Jerry Jones and the Dallas Cowboys is the NFL. And in terms of how they handle players, in terms of how they operate in terms of the aspiration, all of it. And the fact that what went down when Trump did that, when he gave that speech about, you know, fire the sons of bitches and the whole thing,

the one thing that all professional sports need to do is break the union, either physically break them or spiritually break them. And the NFL Players Association has been spiritually broken since 87. Right? And they've been trying to bring, get something back since 87 when 40% of the damn league crossed the picket line in the first three weeks and killed the strike and superstars were the ones to cross. And why did they cross?

They crossed as, you know, we did on this program. They crossed because they loved their owners. 49ers weren't crossing. They loved ADD. Right. And so this was the first time where Jerry was like, wait a minute. We've spent, we've spent 30 years. keeping these guys in the exact perfect place. Why are you going to fire them up? You actually gave

them a reason to join together, to be bonded. That's the biggest threat in the sport. There's no bigger threat in the sport. No sport is more exploitative, is more restrictive, is more owner-friendly than football. And you're going to give these guys a reason to essentially really be a union to be unified, we got to put this down right here, right now. And while all this is happening, by the way, where is Colin Kaepernick not playing football? Not playing. And by now, not really talking. And not talking. And I've always felt that was the the biggest tactical mistake. And Colin did what Colin did because Colin felt like doing whatever he felt like doing. I know it's his life. It's his decision. You know, it's his

strategy or lack thereof. And I never, and I've told him this, that I never felt letting other people define you as the right call. Even if you're not a great public speaker or whatever, I mean, Colin can bring it when he wants to bring it. And, you know, but I felt like that was a huge tactical era because they got to speak for him for an extended period of time. And I'm not just talking about the owners. I'm talking about his ex-teammates and his competitors and all the, you know, everybody's got something to say about Colin. And even his allies. And that's what I'm saying, even his allies. Everybody is speaking for him. And I don't ever think it's a great policy to have the entire world speaking for you. And that was the thing about that, that we

end as well was that in the backdrop of all of this, two things are happening. One, Colin's not playing. That's the first thing. And that's what this is really all about. I mean, no disrespect to Eric Reed or to the McCordy's or, you know, Antonio Cromarty, everybody who was in it or the Bennett's, all of them. But this was really about Kaepernick from an ownership standpoint. That's the first thing. The second thing that's going on during that time is that the league is effectively crushing the protest by offering them money. You've got Anquan Bolden out there and you've got Malcolm Jenkins and you've got the McCordy's with Bobcraft. You've got them all saying, okay, we will partner with you on social justice initiatives. We are essentially going to take a big ass fire hose to this protest and pour

water on it and we're going to co-opt it. We're going to bring you in. And now you got, you know, you got prison reform stuff going on. You've got legislation. You've got all of a sudden, you've got all of these athletes now standing side by side at state houses talking about, talking about real change. Meaningful change. Meaningful change. And then you had Dak Prescott out there going, well, I'm all about real change, which is a shot directly at Kaepernick. Like I'm not, you know, and that was the other narrative that we heard. What was the phrase we were hearing that whole year? Well, you can't just take a knee.

Yeah, you can. Yeah, you can because if there's one thing that we know about this world, bodies in the streets change the world. You can hit like on Facebook all you want. Go hop on CNN International. People are in the street. And that gets people's attention. And so the idea that you couldn't just take a knee

was the players undermining themselves, undermining themselves under the promise that the Terry Pagoolas of the world are going to take care of you, the most paternalistic shit I'd ever heard. Well, also, not really addressing the basic idea that got us here, which is the idea that his song is that holy.

That's right. But you're not going to win that battle, right? You weren't going to win that. Right. You're not going to win it. But I do think as more and more goes, it is worth it every now and then, right, to bring attention back to the fundamental idea of what we're talking about, which is what you do when they play a song, right? But when you get to 2017, and I think you mentioned this a little bit, I think this is

an important thing to note, is that since Colin wasn't playing, these actions and things also became a bit jumbled because they start to raise the question about so, how important if we started here by talking about the way that the police treated black people, or just the way America treated black people, now the front and center issue, rather than being that becomes, does Colin Kaepernick have a job? Should Colin Kaepernick have a job, right? Well, that's right. Now that to me, I think, is an interesting and maybe under-discussed complication of everything that we are discussing just because now we're not really, like we get into this, are you doing anything about meaningful change, dot, dot, dot, and everything else.

But we're not really talking about the issue anymore, which I think that Colin, especially through that 2016, did a fantastic job of bringing attention to the issue beyond just attention to him. Then it's funny. Then once he was gone, the attention then went to him. Well, that's right. And I think that's exactly what complicated. things because people were very complicated and they were ambivalent. A lot of the players weren't happy with Colin. Once it became personal, when you shift away from the issues, you really did have three issues here. You had one, what the police relationship with Black America was, which is an ongoing 50-year, 100, 200-year issue, right, which is really where all this started. Then you had the

secondary issue, which was the athlete's voice. Like, what can they actually do and say and affect and how was that relationship going to work both with their employer and then also how is it going to work with the public? But then you had this other thing as well. And this other thing was, once again, labor. You had a moment. in time there where the Players Association had never really thought that this was part of its job, right? The Players Association's job was to protect the safety of the players, to protect the working conditions of the players, to protect the economic situations of the players. And now they're being asked to do something. So they're being asked to move on the fly. And while they're being asked

to move on the fly, you've got these rogue elements, whether it's Anquan Bolden or Malcolm Jenkins or Devin McCordy, they have individual relationships with their owners, which is undermining the strength of the unity of the union. All of this is happening within the backdrop of how we actually feel about Colin. Because once the issue shifts toward him not working, now a lot of people are like, well, what do he expect? Right? Then it suddenly now it becomes a job issue where it's like, well, you know, you mess with your employer, your employer is going to mess back.

And then I don't remember what year, it wasn't 2017, I think it was 2018, when he actually then sued the league. And then, of course, the response to then, because as you said, this is a very conservative group, a group that understands where it's bread is buttered. How are you going to get a job if you sued your employer? you're finished, right? And so the lack of sympathy increased. And it was like, how can we ride with you?

We weren't going to ride with them in the first place because, you know, in 2016, when they were having these meetings about, hey, what are we going to do and how are we going to do this? And yeah, and we had a lot of people who were really kind of excited about being active. Then the question came back to, okay, well, who's the leader? And when Colin didn't show, you know, that that was a role he was really into.

And he was like, hey, man, everyone would do what they're going to do. There were a lot of people who were like, hey, man, we said we were going to run up this hill behind you. And now you're not here. And so now, if it's everybody for themselves, I'm protecting my paycheck. Because that's what I was saying earlier, Bo, about how the most important thing of this entire 10-year anniversary of CAP, What I take most from that was the chilling effect was the way that everybody coalesced around making sure that none of y'all did this again. I mean, there are players that we can talk about who Antonio Cromarty didn't work again. There are a lot of players who were like, yeah, yeah, I'm a pro-f, I can speak.

And in the NBA, it was a little different because LeBron was giving them all cover because he was LeBron. but if you don't have that sort of protection in your statistics on the back of your baseball card on the back of your football card, you are very much exposed to losing your livelihood. And that is the huge piece of it where a lot of the more shrewd players were sort of like, wait a minute, I know how this is going to go. Yeah. And I can't afford. And it's not a bad question to ask, right? I mean, it's like, it's one of the things that you saw over the last couple of years on college campuses.

People were asking you to ask and professors to sign this and sign them. People are like, no, no, no, no, because I know where this is going to go. Does that make you a coward? Maybe. Do we need different strategies also? But does it also show the opposition, the power of the opposition that you're up against? Absolutely. Absolutely.

you're up against all of the full force of this country is coming up against you. And once you sign or once you take a knee or once you raise a fist and they throw you to the side, you'll get a two-day news cycle and then everybody will go back to loving the system. Because the truth is the difference between Colin and everybody else in the 2017 thing, this is a very important thing to note is that the league basically gave people permission to do what they were going to do after the sons of bitches quote, right? Like after that, the difference was Colin didn't ask nobody for permission. They managed the protest.

Right. They did. Like the only person that I could think of off the top of my head that I feel clearly suffered some consequences based on their participation in some form of protest was Marcus Peters when the chiefs got rid of him and the money that he never really got. Eric Reed is a bit more of a complicated case to me because quite honestly, he wasn't as good of football players as Marcus Peters was. that where their argument of, well, you know,

they were trying to move Reed from safety to linebacker, which is never a good side. But at that way around. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But at that point, it was kind of like, you know, when they said Colin wasn't good enough to play, that was ridiculous. But they started saying that about Eric Reed.

It was like, yeah, I can kind of see the argument that you're making here. But Peters never got up to the money that you normally get for the production and things he did at cornerback. He could find teams that were willing to take them. but not necessarily teams that were willing to keep him. But the reason for that is not because the league wasn't punishing people as much as cats weren't trying them. Like it reminds me when you get to the 2020 bubble

and we all talked about how corny the slogans were on the back of the jerseys. And the people in the league will tell you we didn't turn anything down. That's what they came to us with. Like it was self-regulated in that regard. What we did also get was the Players Coalition, which I think has actually been more interesting than I thought it would be at the time. Now, the issues with the coalition were obvious, most notably that the NFL had control of the board. Any money that the NFL was putting forth, the players had to match.

So it wasn't, you know, but I wound up, I think it was Tori Smith that I was on the phone with who talked to me when it happened. He was like, look, I hear everything that you're talking about. But he was like, this amount of money is more than they do for the salute to service, these things. And he really laid out what they thought was the case for a good deal that they had gotten from the NFL. And I will say that if you go through and look at the organizations that the Players Coalition supports, it reminds me of when NBC had the Richard Pryor show and they were running those episodes, but nobody at NBC had actually watched them. And then they did after five episodes and were like, what the fuck?

Hey, man. Get this off the air. What are you talking about? They are actually giving some money and supporting some organizations that are a little bit more radical than I am in some cases. Like one of those, we talked about destroying the whole criminal justice. and prison system and everything else. And NFL money is going in that direction.

They killed the protest, but if one were making the argument that meaningful change, quote, unquote, was the thing, the Players Coalition has invested in organizations who do that, but you don't necessarily know about that, which shows the limitation of the idea that all there is to do is to, quote, unquote, and act meaningful change,

that there's power in the words, power that one could argue Capron exceeded by deciding that he wasn't going to talk anymore, power that the players ceded by making this trade with the players coalition, while also I think it's important to make note that the coalition, I think, has done better work than any of us thought that it would have going in. Well, let's, I mean, let's be very clear about this. They didn't, you can't say that the players, that the players coalition did nothing. Yeah.

Because to extract money from those owners in the first place was a real thing. To be able to articulate to people who, by the way, at the ballot box are giving money to, or giving money to ideas that they reject at the ballot box is a real thing in of itself. Now, maybe that's just the cost of doing business and all tax right off when you're at, you know, at Terry Bacool is, you know, at his dollar amount. but. Jerry Bacula, who said we needed a black figurehead, who we need to get to in the next episode, Jason.

Mm-hmm. And also, let's not forget this was all happening at the same time, where you had Bob McNair going, the inmates are running the asylum. The prison. The prison. The prison. The inmates are running the prison.

Yes. Right. And so all of these things have to be put into consideration, have to be taken into context. And it all feels sort of quaint now because it does feel like a million years ago, but it wasn't. It wasn't that long ago. And I think that all of this is also in the backdrop of something else that we don't talk about nearly enough anymore. And that's 9-11. So all of this, so you've got this thing happening. At the exact same time, you've got all these flags and flyovers

and taking place. So the NFL field is its own sort of political battleground for how we view ourselves. and that the players coalition I think I'm not going to say they get a bad rap because I feel like where I am most critical of them is simply I feel like they could have gotten everything that they had gotten I think they could have gotten that and 10 times more if they had stayed unified I don't think that there was anything out there that they had gotten that they couldn't have gotten elsewhere. Right. I mean, do you really think that during that time period, there wasn't corporate money out there for those big names? I mean, they could have, but the NFL money was the easiest money. You didn't have to go work that hard for it. And there was a leverage that the,

that the players had because of what Trump had said. There was a, there was a feeling at the time that this is something that we should do. And so cost of doing business. And it, I, I'm I'm sure they viewed it as a win-win. The players are like, look, we're getting real money here. And when you're dealing with those athletes, and most people in general, money is the barometer for everything. And it's the one tangible thing. They handed us $20 million.

And that's a real thing. And it actually, that real money helps real people. So there's no argument there. To me, the issue had always been that they had allowed themselves to be splintered, really. relatively cheaply. There's a bigger issue there. And that was of unity, which the players association has very rarely had

when it's come to any kind of like organizing since 87. Now, the last thing I want to get to that actually somehow managed to lose track coaches and it's such a huge thing that you were yourself a part of. We fast forward to the year of our Lord 2019, right? And so we're looking five months or so before the world. touchdown. Well, we have no idea that this is the direction that things are going to go in. We're going to talk to Jason England about 2020 and beyond because that's when all of this, I feel like really comes to a head with or without Colin. But November 2019,

we've had all this discussion about Colin not having a job. Colin not having a job. Colin has sued the NFL a lawsuit that would later be settled. It is my understanding that Roger Goodell really, really was hoping that somebody would give Colin Kaepernick a job, that that was his preference for a number of reasons that this was not, when you say the NFL was keeping Colin out, it was not Park Avenue's idea to do this. But the 32 member franchises, they were their own situation.

But a workout was scheduled for Colin Kaepernick for November 16th, 2019. And the teams are supposed to be there. I think Hugh Jackson was the one that they had running it. Running the workout. 16 Hugh Jackson. That's right. It was supposed to be, because they need somebody to do this that could be similar.

He's a black dude to white people seem to like. You know what I mean? Like they thought they could get this whole thing. Good soldier. It's a good company man. Yep. Somebody had to do this, right? He also, you know, trying to get himself some looks, right? Trying to get back on.

He's there. And it's supposed to be at the facility and flowery branch to Falcons facility. What Howard Bryant is in Atlanta for this. Called you that day, didn't I? You did, because you were on the road. I was like, where am? am I? Right, yeah. You were trying to figure out where you were going. I'm like, look, man, you're going out to the Knopf. I don't really got no, I can't really help you on that. But the thing that happened was they tried to get Colin to sound some crazy waiver that basically said that if you do this, you can't ever sue us. And him in a t-shirt that said, Kuntikinti on it, which was quite a choice. I will just throw out there. It's like sort of prince putting slave on his cheek. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, I don't know.

not that I don't understand where you're coming from, my brother. I'm just not sure that that is what I would have recommended that you do under these circumstances. But anyway, that workout was it? That workout got canceled and then you had to fly across, fly all the way over to the south side and go to Charles Drew High School for another workout. Like, I remember talking to you all that day, but what was that day, like being in the midst of the store? By the way, while your employer didn't even know you were there, right?

That was the other thing. They didn't even know I was there. All of that was something. I was at the Apollo Theater. First time and only time I've ever been to the Apollo. I was there for a screening of Lynn Novick's film Prison Behind Bar, I'm sorry, college behind bars on the Bard Prison Initiative. Lin Novick, people don't know is Ken Burns' business partner.

They did all kinds of great films together. And my text messages are blowing up. there's a workout for Colin Kaepernick. I'm like, what? And it's in Atlanta, and it's in a couple days. And this is, I'm like, so this is a real thing. So suddenly, here we go. Pack up, go down to Atlanta, go to Flowery Branch,

sitting outside, and everybody's out there sort of waiting. And it was, once again, it was America for you. It was, you know, the nine protesters out there honking their, you know, showing how angry they are at the un-American Colin Kaepernick. And then on the other hand, there were the 18 pro-Captainic people out there. And in between, there was all kinds of noise going on between the sides. Is this actually going to happen? And that was the thing.

Like, I was in contact with both the NFL and the Kaepernick team back and forth, because as the hours were going on, I'm like, okay, what teams are going to be here? And the teams actually weren't like the teams were not committing. They weren't giving us a list of who was actually going to be there. Then all of a sudden the list started to trickle out. And then you started to see, okay, who was actually going to be there? And it turns out it was like junior members of like every team because it was on a Saturday

and that's a scout day. And it was like it's game day the next day. And so most of the executives aren't going to be there. I'm like, well, how serious is this if none of the actual talent evaluators are going to be there? But just the fact that it was happening was electric because it seemed like maybe something was going to happen. And then as we start to get closer and closer to the time period that the workout's going to happen, they're still negotiating the terms. And I'm like, you guys still don't have terms. And so now things are starting to go south.

It's like, all right, I think this whole thing's not going to happen. not, you know, and everyone stayed in there waiting and you're seeing all the buses go in and all the cars and the check-ins to see which teams are there and which ones aren't. And what I found amazing about this was the utter lack of trust, that this was clearly an impromptu thing, that somebody felt that they could jam in and nobody was buying it. And that spoke to me, mostly to just how divided or how divisive this issue had really become. Like, this is, like, I wonder how history is going to treat this if history is going to remember any of this at all, because we don't even have history anymore for the most part.

But this is all one guy. This is Colin Kaepernick, and this is now year three of this, right? And by the time we are supposed to go. I get a text saying workouts off. I'm like, the workouts off came down here for nothing. And then I get another text two minutes later going, Collins holding his own

workout. Location TBD. Yeah, and like all the rabble rousers have Voltroned it up to figure out how to switch this. It's a really impressive feat when you really stop and think about it. From an organizing standpoint. Yeah. Like the

the streets coalesced and decided now we're going to figure this out. Well, that was also the the cool part about it too from just a protest standpoint and all of Collins fraternity brothers showed up and that was kind of amazing to watch um because you're not just talking about football you're not talking about a football player you were really really talking about the idea of power and of democracy and all these big highfalutin concepts that we talk about and that we take so easily but what we're really talking about is the you know the ability for a person to have some

sort of agency over his life. And that was not taking place here. It was, Colin was going to be finished. And this was a glimmer of hope that maybe there was some resurrection here, that maybe there was some way that he was going to resume his career. And maybe just maybe the cooler heads were going to prevail. And there wasn't going to be this great injustice. And then that Saturday hit, and it killed everything. Because Hugh Jackson was like, man, fuck this dude. I mean, he was like, We have given everything we can for this. You know, we're given Colin an opportunity and Colin essentially spit in our faces. And then Colin goes and holds his own event down at the high school.

And that was interesting in of itself because no one didn't see him throw football in three years. And so that was sort of fascinating in of itself. And so, but at the end of the day when it all came down to it, you had these warm, factions. You had the dueling factions of, you know, the Kaepernet camp saying, none of this is real. You guys are trying to railroad me. You wanted my footage. It just became this negotiation. And on the NFL side, it was like, this dude's not really about it. You know, he's not about it. Do you really want to be a professional football player? And I think that- And also keep in mind by then that grievance has been filed. It has been

settled. And one of the great mysteries that depends on who you talk to is how much money do we How much money did he actually get? Yeah, like, I don't know anybody. I know people who are very clear in their belief that it is up here and down here. I personally have no idea. But it has been settled by the end, but there's, there's animus. There's still animus. And there's a lot of it.

And I think that to me, that was the end of it all. Because the NFL, I mean, and when I say the end of it all, what I'm really getting at, Bo, is what, what you had said at the start of the show, which was there was only one way that Colin was going to be able to escape the position that he was in, his stance, his feeling. And that was to undermine it. And that the NFL was making it very, very clear. If you want to be a part of the National Football Association, you got to play ball with us. Right. This is on our terms. It's our league. It's It's not all of ours. It's ours and we allow you to play in it. And I think that was the, that was the thing to me at that moment that really put the question of protest into, into really,

really sort of clear and stark relief. Are you willing to lose everything for this? Like that was where the Colin, I mean, if you just take all the different roads and what do they actually lead to? What they lead to is Colin Kaepernick was like, I don't really want to be part of this anymore, right? While at the same time, and it depends on who you talk to and what your own feelings are, at the same time, there's also this feeling that Colin never really knew the depth of how bad it was going to get. Did he ever really believe that it was going to come to this when he sat by that water cooler and that preseason? in game, did he really believe that this was going, that this was the beginning of the end of his professional life? And to me, that's the question that sits inside of him. You know what I mean? Because I don't think we'd ever really seen anything like it to that, to that degree. And I still,

to this day, I mean, I'm asking him, did you know that this was going to be a possible outcome when you started this and he said yes. And I still don't know how deeply he believed that because he was still a good player back then. And then seven months later, it all came to a head with George Floyd, which Colin wasn't involved in, but it had everything to do with Colin.

And the next episode, we are going to talk to Jason England about what happens after all of this, right? Like once it's clear, there's no more Colin Kaepernick career. How does the future affect him, everything else? That is how we'll wrap this up. First, that's my man Howard Bryant. This is Kings and Ponce. If you turn it on the back, it's say extraordinary praise

because there's an extraordinary book that got extraordinary praise. Be sure to check this out. If you have not checked it out already, my brother, I appreciate you. No, thank you. All right. Ladies and gentlemen, thanks so much for joining us here on the right time. We do this during the summer every now and then. Mike McQueen, having everything behind the scenes.

Thank you, sir. Hit the voicemail line, 32, 7,77. remember, follow the right time, subscribe, like, rate us, review us, give us five stars, you only give us four stars, I'm inclined to believe you are a hater. And we'll talk to you guys in a couple of days. Take it easy.