The Right Time with Bomani Jones - Howard Bryant on Pro Football Hall of Fame Debates, Why voters get it WRONG | 02.13

Episode Date: February 13, 2026

Bomani Jones is joined by Howard Bryant. They discuss the many issues with the Halls of Fame across all sports and what makes the Pro Football Hall of Fame so difficult to get into. They also discuss whether Klay Thompson should be in the Pro Basketball Hall of Fame and whether Eli Manning will ever make it despite winning 2 Super Bowl MVPs. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the right time, a wave original. My name is Beaumani Jones. Thanks for listening wherever you get your podcast. Thanks for watching us on YouTube. Subscribe, like, rate us, review us, give us five stars. You only give us four stars. I'm inclined to believe you are a hater. It is a Hall of Fame Friday with Howard Bryant.

I guess they need to explain to what I've been. But first, how was going on? Hey, man. How are we looking? Hey, man. We all good, man. All right. So the NFL Hall of Fame vote.

was last week. We got Drew Breeze. We got Larry Fish, Gerald. We got Adam Venetary. We got Luke Keekley. And we have Roger Craig. And I am a little bit younger than Howard, but we have a lot of overlap

in our sporting experience. And 1980s football is a fair overlap. I don't have the particular detailed know knowledgees of everything, but I know enough to have a conversation about it. And sent Howard a text. That's it. Roger Craig ain't no Hall of Fame.

It may not have been those... And the phone rang how many seconds later? Yeah, yeah. Now the phone call comes, what you got against Roger Craig? And my point simply was. And I think it's tricky for me because once we get these veteran committees,

we're just kind of being to a degree nice to people. But if in the last 30 years, you didn't really get a consensus on this, and he and Craig was not a case like Drew Pearson was, like some other players where every year we'd be like, so is this going to be the year? Is this going to be the year?

We hadn't even really been talking about Roger Craig. Like somebody would get cute on the internet and bring him up as an example. And he is the first running back with a thousand yards rushing and receiving in the same year. As a guy, you think about the 49ers throwing it around all the time, but he's a dude just had seasons with 300-something carries, all of that stuff.

But I didn't even know this was something that we even had on the board was Roger Craig in the Hall of Fame. And then next thing I know, I bet Sean Alexander, to mad to the motherfucker right now. I got MVP. Yeah. And also, he was somebody from me where I was sort of like, why wasn't he in consideration? Because at that time, you know, it's a conversation about revolution. Right. I mean, if you, if you're of that age and I'm of that age where you saw the Bill Walsh offense for the first time, it was like watching the 2014 Warriors for the first time. You're like, what is this is?

Oh, you mean you're not going to do a third nine drawplay anymore? You mean you're going to throw on first down? I mean, it's a revolution, right? And so, but that revolution doesn't look very sexy right now because everybody does it. Right. It's like listening to Chuck Berry now. Exactly. Like, well, what's the big hoo-ha about this, right?

And so Roger Craig begets Marshall Falk, begets Christian McCaffrey. Right? I mean, he's the original guy. who's actually, oh, a running back that when you throw the ball to him, it's not going to hit him in the helmet, right? I mean, that he's an actual receiver. And so, you know, I mean, to me, this conversation in the phone call you and I were having about this opened up two things.

The first thing, football's just different. Football's Hall of Fame is different from all the other Hall of Fame. Basketball Hall of Fame, you get in the minute you learn how to dribble. Baseball's Hall of Fame is, Baseball's Hall of Fame is, Baseball's Hall of Fame is very, very, very writer slash stat driven, and then it's score-settling driven. Football's Hall of Fame is this shrouded mystery. It's this thing where it is stat-based, but not kind of really sort of stat-based because you've got that massive division of labor. but it's also the most non-nostalgia of the Hall of Fames

because there are guys when you think about modern day football and the modern day football is the Super Bowl era okay you can add a couple of years for Lombardi before that or Jim Brown 64 but basically we're talking about the Super Bowl era post you know post merger football is the modern day football and the guys who built this game the signature guys who built that era they got no love. I mean, none. And so that was really for me, it was like when I start thinking about the lanes, football's lanes to entry are very, very different than everybody else's.

There are 22 people on the field every play in football. They let in like five dudes a year. Like, it's a, it's a tough, tough room. Now, like basketball is the room that shrouded in the most mystery. We know really next to nothing. about the basketball process. There's no criteria because it's the basketball Hall of Fame, not the NBA Hall of Fame. Yeah, and it's, they'll let anybody in there. Like, pretty good is to stand.

Like, when people start telling me that somebody is not a basketball Hall of Famer, I could, and look, I can have that happen for me on, with, for me, with certain people, right? For example, for me, Reggie Miller, not a Hall of Fame. But in that basketball Hall of Fame, yeah, yeah, no, No, no, he's, yeah, yeah, we let him in. We let him in.

Like I ask you this, you're a Boston guy. Dennis Johnson. Is Dennis Johnson, like, did you see him as a Hall of Famer or just an excellent player? DJ was a Hall of Famer to me. And the reason he was a Hall of, once again, right? There are lanes to basketball that there aren't for football. And Roger Craig is one of the first guys who crosses lanes. And what I mean by lanes is if you were part of something special,

right? You get Hall of Fame dispensation for being part of it. Football is so individualistic. Like, look at the Boston Celtics. Everybody on those rosters are all Hall of Famers. Like all of them. Satch Sanders is in the Hall of Fame. They're all in the Hall of Fame because they were part of it. Well, Casey Jones average, like eight points a game or something like that. But Casey Jones is one of the guys who, you know, who is one of those prototypes, the big, you know, the big defensive guard, which is Dennis Johnson. and those guys, you know, Sydney Moncrief and Paul Presley and all those types of players, they go back to Oscar Robertson and Casey Jones. But Casey Jones came before Oscar Robertson.

And so, although Oscar's a far, far better players, an offensive player as well. But my point is, is that basketball finds lanes for those types of players. Basketball will have, there's like three or four lanes for basketball. Lane number one, you were just a great player. That's lane number one. you balled out. Lane number two, you were the best at your position. Lane number three, you were a signature player. You were somebody that was critical to the way people come to the sport. Lane number four, you were part of something special. You were on six championship teams. You were on seven championship teams

or whatever. So there are all these different lanes that you get in basketball. And to swing it all the way back, Roger Craig is a signature member of a dynasty. And in football, that doesn't seem to count that much. And it certainly didn't seem to count to you. I mean, no, not really, if we're going to be perfectly honest. I did not. I think that's what Jersey retirements are for. Yeah.

Right? Like, I think that there are levels at which you can credit a lot of these guys that I think are very, very, very significant honors. Now, to be fair to Craig on this, and I did not realize this, because I had my years mixed up. He was the starting running back on three Super Bowl teams, right? So I was thinking of him more in the like Dwight Clark class of that dynasty that was on two of the teams.

Because the only players that were on all four, as I remember, Joe Montana, Ronnie Lott, Keena Turner, Eric Wright, and I think there might be one more guy. But it was, I mean, even in that, in the no free agency era, Like there was turnover in between on what all of these were. I felt like Craig had a career. Like you got that one year where he was lights out, where he had 1,500 yards rushing.

And the year where he had the 1,000 and 1,000, it was like 1,000 and 1,000 and 1,000. It's 1050 and 1016. And then one of the 1,000 yards season. Like if I pull up his page, what do they say in baseball, it doesn't have much black ink? The black ink on it. And then also, let's also not forget that if you're going to analyze football,

football stats, the difference between a thousand-yard rusher has not, it has changed dramatically, but the milestone hasn't. A thousand yards was a 14-game thousand yard. Yes. A thousand yards in a 16 game is 66 yards a game. Right. It's kind of like the term millionaire. That's right. Right. We used to say the way we did would money cost something different, right? The other thing for me in talking about him is there is a big gap between him, and say Eric Dickerson. Yeah. Right.

When I think of like, who are the Hall of Fame running backs that you associate with the 1980s? Walter Payton still gets in, right? He was still very good for the majority of the 1980s. Marcus Allen, there's a gap between Marcus Allen and Roger Craig. And so it's like,

different backs though, right? I mean, different backs, but they're still, even with their stylistic differences, if I'm telling you to pick one. Yes. And so the counter, to that, if there's a counter to that, and I don't think there necessarily is one in your mind,

is, are there different layers of Hall of Fame? And when I get to, and that leads me into baseball, I remember one day, and yes, you'll laugh at this, but one day walk it into Legends Field during spring training, and here is Mr. October, Reggie Jackson. It had to be 2002, I think. And here's Reggie Jackson, and Reggie's walking in, and I remember this like it was yesterday. The big dogs, the A-list Hall of Famers, they kind of treat the B and C-List Hall of Famers. It's not a, you know, once you're in, you're all the same level, but you're not really all the same level. So Reggie walks in, and Gary Carter, I believe, had just gotten in. I think it was Gary Carter. I'm to check that, but I think it was Gary Carter. And he walks over to Roger.

There's Clemens sitting there, big Roger Clemens, 6'4-250 Roger, right? Who, by the way, at that time, did not even want to be called Roger. He wanted to be called Rocket. And so, and I just love being asked, you know, asking people to call you by your nickname. That shit's either like, that's either organic or you got a problem. Right. And so Reggie walks up. So now here, the two gods sitting there. Reggie, and Roger Clemens, and he's like, Gary Carter. Eh. And Roger's like, eh, right? Who's not even in the hall to fame?

And by the way, and that's the thing is that, oh, if we could only, like, move the clock forward, Roger, your destiny is taking a turn. You know what I mean? This ain't going to end the way you think it's going to end right now, Roger. But at that time, he was a no-doubter. Right. And he walked around like a no-douder. and so

so yeah so yeah so to me yeah right I don't think Roger Craig would put himself in Walter Payton category but that doesn't mean he's not a Hall of Famer yeah I think

it's interesting it it's also interesting because the discussion around him really comes up because of who didn't get in was Bill Belichick right like he comes up because of the Belichick and then the craft thing and I'm sure we'll get to more about that later

but when you start hearing and the voters explained why they did it. And it's always interesting when the machine learns, which is something I don't think we talk enough about in the Hall of Fame process, because this is the same thing that also happens when the AP poll, AP poll had effects on things like the BCS, is that the voters no longer looked at their ballot as simply what their opinion was going into the poll. They started thinking their vote out in terms of how it would affect what all the long run consequences were, right?

The machine has now learned. And it kind of changes. Yeah. And one other big piece of that, too, is the cyberbullying that comes with it. Right, right. But it is changed the way, like I say, another thing for people to consider, right? So it is now changed. It is a chemical change to the way things are voted for.

In this case, a lot of voters explained that they felt like they could vote for Belichick a little bit later, but this is your last chance to vote for Roger Craig. And so, hey, you know what, I just got to feel like voting for Roger Craig, right? And once these votes are very important, but also you have like the swing voter situation where the only vote that really matters is the one that turns it over. And so your vote kind of counts, but not really. So people can do all kinds of weird shit with it and then not realize. But like it's the Eddie Murphy routine about voting for Jesse Jackson, right?

You're going to vote for Jesse Jackson. What do you mean? Do you mean he fucking won, right? It's those same sorts of things. And so a big part of why Roger Craig is in the Hall of Fame is the reason a lot. of things happen, which is somebody wanted it to be that way. And I think you and I tapped into a big part of why they wanted it to, and you alluded to it a little bit earlier, it's rather surprising how few of those 49ers are in the Hall of Fame. Well, that's right. And especially because of the

division of labor, on which side of the ball. Right. And it's changing. And I think it's okay for things to change because the longer you get away from history, then the more the game shifts. And the 49ers, are very, very special. That group is very, very special in San Francisco because that's the group that turned them into the 49ers as we see them. The 49ers are not that different from the Patriots in terms of they weren't as bungling as the Patriots,

but they were going to lose, right? I mean, they were good, you know, they lost the Cowboys 71. That's the one that everyone talks about, you know, they had their moments, but they were going to lose. They were the 49ers. and then all of a sudden, Joe Montana and Bill Walsh, and suddenly they win. And now they're a different team.

And people look at those foundational championship teams. And you're going to have that conversation, you know, when it comes warrior time, right? Draymond Green and Andre Aguadala and Clay Thompson. That's going to be the one is Andrea Goddala. How many members of that team are getting in? And so the thing that comes up with that for me, and with the 49ers, and as I run this, if anybody, if I get it wrong, then I'm sure somebody the child will say it, but off the top of my head, and you and I broke this down, really the 81 to 94 run, right?

We will throw in the fifth championship, which is. I would actually go to 92 because that's the Montana era. Yeah, I'm about saying, yeah, once you get to 94, it is, that is a different team. That team is not the same as the ones before, just a similar. head coach situation. It's Montana that's in. Ronnie Lott is in. I think we would put Charles Haley,

who kind of gets to be on, he kind of gets to be Dennis Rodman. Yeah, he's a hybrid. Right? He's part of, he's part of, two different of these dynasties that were in conflict with one another.

With each other, that's right. They're in. Craig is now in. Is that it? Depending on how you feel about the fullback position. Yeah. I mean, Tom Rathman, he's not a Hall of Famer.

No, no, no, no. The way we think about howlons. I was talking about actually in. Oh, actually in. Yeah, that's it. That's it. They won four Super Bowls in nine years. Those are the only guys.

And we are, for purposes of this discussion, we are not counting Steve Young. Well, that's right. And he shouldn't be counted at that time. Yeah. Because, one, he wasn't on the 70, you know, the 81 team. Yeah. But even if he had popped in like Roger Craig did, he, he wasn't, he got in in 94. This is not, like, he gets in after the time period that we're talking about. I'm just

hitting it off because I know how these people be acting in the comments. That is true. You forgot. He was on the bench, but you forgot him. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's what we're doing. That's what we're doing. But no. That feels weird to say. And I mean, Eddie DeBartolo, if you want to get into the whole putting owners in the Hall of Fame thing, that doesn't, that doesn't make sense. It does, though. For football? How many Patriots are, how many Patriots are? How many Patriots are getting in. How many, well, Steelers are very well represented. We counted that out.

But how many cowboys? I mean, we talk about the signature cowboys. The signature cowboys of the 70s, you made Drew Pearson had to wait forever. Yeah. Too tall is not in, signature player. No. To Rayfield Wright had to wait forever to get in. Mm-hmm.

Well, I guess what I'm saying is. It does make sense. It is interesting. And this is something we had talked about that I think people lose. site, or at least for me, this is a big thing. I think it is, I think it's very debatable whether or not Clay Thompson is a basketball Hall of Fiverer. Yeah, that's wild.

I got to leave you. I can throw you an oar, but I ain't joining you on that, right? I believe, I believe that he is a Hall of Famer only in the context in which he is making the Hall of Fame, right? I don't, I don't, I think that, I don't feel like. Is Draymond a Hall of Famer, then by that rationale? So, Draymond is very interesting because I am, I am more inclined to say that I find him, I find him to be more singular than I find Clay Thompson to be, right? I think Clay Thompson had a

somewhat singular ability at a thing where Draymond Green is a one-of-one player, right? Interesting. But by the way, I'm, go ahead, Bill. And I go ahead, but the, and I go Dahlia, I just do not believe is a Hall of Fame. The real point for me is that I feel like during the, during the Warriors run, we would talk about where the Warriors are so good because they have three Hall of Famers and they got Kevin Durant, who's an obvious Hall of Fame. And it's like, Well, they're so good because they have four Hall of Famers. And I'm like, no, I think we're working backwards here. We are saying that in order for a team, because if you went and look historically,

the teams that were champions overwhelmingly had X numbers of Hall of Famers. What I think then happens is we then ascribe a Hall of Fame status to players who are on championship teams because our brains say in order to be a champion, you have to have this many Hall of Famers when in reality it was these teams had this many Hall of Fame, had this many Hall of Famers. but they're also teams that had three Hall of Famers that weren't champions, right? We say Clay Thompson and Draymond Green have to be Hall of Famers, but what we're also saying and don't realize it is someone who's made this mistake himself, we're underrating the greatness of Steph Curry, right?

Like, did you have to have all those Hall of Famers, or was that guy just so good that he counts as two Hall of Famers by himself? There is a very prominent basketball player who tells people when nobody's listening or when the microphones aren't around that Michael Jordan's so good, went into Hall of Fame as Michael Joy and Scottie Pitt. Fair what I mean? One of the things, like, I am a voter for two Hall of Fame. Two Hall of Fame.

Well, I was. I get rid of my baseball vote, but I was eligible baseball Hall of Fame voter and tennis Hall of Fame voter. And football is very different because as part of my baseball criteria, I believe that you are, there's dominance and longevity. These are the two main lanes for baseball. Football, longevity cannot really be part of it, especially if you're a running back.

If you're Gail Sayers and you play six years or you're at Torell Davis, those peaks are so high and those injuries come so fast. And then you look at certain guys, which is the thing that perplexed me, is that then we penalize some of these guys for longevity in a sport where longevity is a luxury, it's not even a luxury. It's a rarity.

it's a unicorn. Well, you know, Frank Gore's a compiler. Damn right, he's a compiler. You can, you last out there that many years at that position with that much pounding. I mean, so I do wonder about how we how we look at yards when it comes to that individual position. It almost seems like you have to be dominant for your small stretch of time as your main lane instead of having longevity also be a main lane. I think Frank Gore's thing is tricky because he is treated as a compiler, but his biggest problem

is in the early portion of his career and running backs are like power pitchers in baseball. They really rack it up early, right? He's playing for bad teams. Playing for bad teams. So he actually wasn't in a position to truly compile because they're behind by 10 points in the second half,

and you can only handle the ball so much. The one time the Frank Gore got 300 carries, he got 1,700 yards. So in reality, he didn't actually get to compile. You can say that it's the longevity of it, but he's, he comes into the league at a time where in our minds, we talk about these things in the context of guys getting 300 carries. And dudes, basically, if you're not Derek Henry, they don't get 300 carries anymore, right? So in my head, Curtis Martin, I do not envision Curtis Martin, nor do I feel like if you look on YouTube and pull up Curtis Martin

highlight. Curtis Martin is not going to look like a Hall of Fame. And I never felt like Curtis Martin while he was playing was a Hall of Famer. However, for 10 years, teams consistently said, you know what our best chance of winning is? Giving the ball to Curtis 300 times. And 300 times a year, he was like, yeah, I'll take it.

And who is his coach as well? And kept getting up and kept going. that I feel like for a running back, if somebody could give you the, that's the one place where I'm like, carries, if you tell me you're in the top, however if carries, you might just be a Hall of Fame.

You might just be a Hall of Fame. And I think, too, I mean, the addition of analytics as being part, not just part of it, but being the main part of it. Like, one of the reasons why the Hall of Fame, why these conversations tend to bore me unless we're having a good one like this one,

is because, we've tried to turn this into science. We've tried to turn this into an algebra test. It's a math test. You know, one plus one has to equal two. But in the true sense of the Hall of Fame, it doesn't. It also lives in the mind and in the imagination, which is why you look at Drew Pearson's.

But if you saw Drew Pearson play, you're like, of course he's a Hall of Famer. He's one of the signature people of that decade when football became what it is today. Then you look at his numbers and you're like, was he a third receiver? And the reason is is because unlike all the other sports,

well, Drew Pearson played in an era where you could kill people. Drew Pearson, you could actually murder people on the field. I mean, you're lucky to get 800 yards out there. No, that is the thing about any discussion about, like, I do not believe, and I firmly believe this about the NFL,

or the Pro Football Hall of Fame, numbers aren't going to get you in. Right? Like, if you're going to make a statistical case, it's got to be really overwhelming in one form or another. Like, I have a great statistical case against Jason Witten getting into the Hall of Fame

and, but it is based on, like, relative to his peers at the time. Like, it's a, what are we really talking about here sort of situation? Going back and saying that Joe Namath is the most overrated quarterback ever because he had more interceptions than touchdowns. It's kind of ignoring the way that a just strategically. That's Joe Namath. That's Joe Namath. I'm sorry. Yeah. But yeah, strategically, that the game was played in a much different way. Number two, and I think this is important, and we may get to more about this later. Nobody who was actually there at the time says Joe Namath was

overrated and shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame. Everybody who was there at the time, like Wes unsold average something like seven points a game in the NBA. It sounds crazy to me that he's in the Hall of Fame. Nobody who was there thinks it was crazy. You have to defer in that way to, okay, there were people who were there. You have to defer to that. You also have to defer to what you just hit on with some of these efficiency numbers. It was a really violent game, man. I wish you could show that clip. I wish you. Just everybody hop on YouTube and look at NFL day intro, 1997. You know, and I think my man put a, put a, I think that the, uh, the header he put on the

subject was every play here is a penalty today. Yes. It like watching that must be what it would be like if somebody put Amos and Andy on regular television. Like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Or all in the family. Yeah, you can't do that. Like you, you used to just be able to do that on TV.

There were clothes lines. There was the suplex. Yep. They pick up Terry Bradshaw and crunched him. The dude, a dude laying on the ground who gets stepped on. And please understand, this is the montage that the network and the league have decided is the best vehicle through which to promote the game. This wasn't no bootleg going. Oh, look at how bad the NFL's.

This is like, yes, this is Sunday. This is appointment view. and like the one where they show the dude just getting ripped down by his face mask in slow motion getting his eyes poked out. No flag. That wasn't illegal at the time. And no visor back then.

You're getting your eyes poked out. Yo, everybody wears a cute face mask now in the NFL. In the 90s, them joints was cages because it was still, we were still in that period. I talked about this when Steve Atwater went into the Hall of Fame. I was like, can they even show? show a video, there's no way to explain

why this dude's in the Hall of Fame. Penalty. Penalty. Penalty. You were not allowed to do any of those things. Like, I saw a clip a couple days ago of Ryan Clark NFL footage. And I had forgotten what time it was with that guy. And a lot of people thought Ryan was a dirty player.

Yeah, Ryan, he was on his show where he was trying to explain, hey man, I put people to sleep. That was That was how he was sticking around the NFL. I put people to sleep. Him and Sean Taylor back there together. Yes. There was people whose job it was to do these things.

And then, as we talked about, where Steve Atwater did that, he got to the Hall of Fame, there were guys even more violent than that who were just dirty. Andre Dirty Waters, rest in peace. Tatum, rest in peace. Jack Tatum, who not in the Hall of Fame.

and he is on that list of guys where he is so famous and a foundational figure of 1970s football that clearly they were just like, we're not going to do it. We're not putting you in. Well, I mean, and think once again, when you think about signatures, how many raiders are in the Hall of Fame from that era?

Stabler's not in the Hall of Fame. He's in now. He's in now. Stabler's in. Cliff Branch, Blenikov. Blenikov's in. Branch didn't get in. I don't think so. And so, I mean, that's what I mean.

I mean, there are so many of these guys. But once again, this is the conversation about the difference. If this was the NBA, all of those guys would be in. Oh, it could be. I was going to say, I thought Branch is in. I was going to say, I thought Branch got in. Because they are signature players. They are, when you think, and this is what I mean about the imagination. And to me, the imagination matters.

It's just like when you're doing the MVP and everything, too. Is the eye test the whole test? No. But you do want people to buy tickets. and you do want people to wear the jerseys and you do want your kids to wear the jersey because then they buy the jersey and then their kids buy the jersey and who are those people who draw you to the jersey. The other piece of it is too when you talk about having to be there, whenever I would do my Hall of Fame vote, one of the things that I would do is I would call players of that era.

I would call up Dennis Eckersley and call Reggie and Joe Morgan for guys that I didn't see. Or guys that I just wanted to, I just wanted some inside information on, you know, on what they thought of this guy while playing against him. And Reggie, of course, was always my favorite. Because Reggie is obviously, Reggie's a dominance over longevity guy too, say. Right? Give me, you know, so Reggie's like, point number one.

Were you to baddest motherfucker during your time? But you're a guy, right? And that is the question. Did we have to game plan for you? Did we make sure that if we lost, you didn't beat us? that's huge for them in the room. And I was like, okay, I think that's valuable in terms of me and my Hall of Fame voting when you're thinking about certain people.

That's one of the reasons why guys loved Edgar Martinez, who I didn't think was necessarily a Hall of Famer, considering he didn't play defense. And also, as much as I hate doing this, I felt like I had to do it in this case, is that how can you put his numbers side by side with Albert Bell when Albert Bell didn't make 5% of the ballot his first time in. And so I don't love that sort of, well, if this guy's in, then this guy has to begin,

because all the circumstances are fairly different. But the one thing that everybody said, everybody, pitchers, hitters, teammates, opponents, coaches, you didn't want to face Edgar Martinez. You didn't want to face him. You know, and that carried a lot of weight. And I understand, I didn't vote for him, but I understand that's why. he got in because he had the respect. Not just that he was a nice guy

and everybody loved Edgar, it was that when the shit hit and the game was on the line, you did not want him. You did not want him with a guy on second base in a tie game. Yeah, basketball has a lot of these examples. And coming on us, we'll talk about some of these, and I will ask Howard about one guy. I'm very curious

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ZipRecruiter.com slash Beaumani. Again, that's ZipRecruiter.com slash Bobani. ZipRecruiter, the smartest way to hire. All right, we are back with Howard Bryant, and I was thinking as you were talking about that with Edgar Martinez. It's kind of where, for me, it's very interesting hearing former players talk about Kobe. where there are criticisms that I can make statistically and just, I think, from an honest accounting of watching, where in part personality,

in some ways in places he came up a little bit short. However, people who play it against him, very few of them say any such thing, right? There is a real value, I think, to what you just pointed out there, which is what these dudes say. And sometimes they're wrong, right? Sometimes. But there is a value,

no matter what to somebody being like, hey, man, you ain't want none of them problems. Like, it's like, listen to Gilbert Arenas and those guys over there talk about, you play a game against the Sixers, and the whole scouting report was Iverson. That was it. Well, he makes the whole engine go, right?

I mean, there is a lot of value to that. And I mean, I don't, I mean, by no measure is Kobe Bryant, not a Hall of Famer. Oh, no, no, no, no, that's not what I mean. No, that's just to be clear. But like, what levels of it, right? So the way former players talk about Carmelo Anthony is much different than the way the nerds would. That's right.

And the way his team resume would perhaps indicate. Well, that's right. And that's also because of what the criteria is. I mean, I got a call from one of my boys. I will shout out you, Jeff Scott, who was talking to me about Bobby Abraeus. Somebody put a clip online about why isn't Bobby Abraeu in the Hall of Fame? Bobby Abraeu is absolutely the modern day analytics-based player.

Now, I have not done the Pepsi challenge with him. I haven't called all of his peers and said, tell me about Bobby Brayu. But the arguments on him are the numbers there? Yeah, they're okay. I mean, they're good. They're not slam dunk, hall of fame, best of the best of the best. But his real, you know, the real argument on Abraeu is his on base percentage.

And that on base percentage is a conversation that you weren't having for Roberto Clemente. Right. Right. The on-bate OPS, that stuff is a very different conversation now than it was for the previous generation of player. And so I'm also thinking, okay, I mean, Bobby Rayo hit 291, 2,400 hits, 2470, 288 home runs, 1,300 RBIs, 400 stolen bases, 1,400 runs. That is not a slam dunk hall of favor to me. 60.2 war. I mean, I don't really care about war, to be honest, and the reason isn't because I'm an analytics hater. It's simply because if you told me which players had the highest war

without giving me their war, it's pretty much the same as the eye test. We saw who could play and who couldn't play. And so this, so the Hall of Fame standards are changing. And when those standards change, do you have to, you know, you have to sort of adjust along with it because the game values different things? You know, like I said to Billy Bean one day, I was like, I remember texting him, I said, Billy, does hard hit rate really matter? And he sent me a text back that made me feel like sort of a silly nine-year-old where he's like, it absolutely matters, period. And I was like, okay, so 20 years from now, are we going to be judging players by their exit velocity and their hard hit rates as well as the other stats. I mean, all of that sounds dreadful to

me. But as the game shifts and as the criteria shifts and as the evaluation shifts, so too does the criteria. Like, you know, I talked to my man Dave Stewart and he's like, name me a starting pitcher that's getting into the Hall of Fame. Right. Like CCC's in, but CCC still had CC had raw Hall of Fame numbers. Still got the 3,000 strikeouts, still got the wins. You know, but, you know, if you got guys winning in the Cy Young with 11, 12 wins, like, this is, you have to evaluate this position differently as time goes on. The same way, if you're Sean Alexander, you might be looking at guys going,

hmm, really? Because it's just the different sport. Like I saw a chart the other day that was talking about the leading passer for every team, you know, the all-time, nothing leading all-time, but single season. The number of dudes who threw for 5,000 yards, staggering, but only one of them did it in the 80s. Yeah, it's Damarino. And this is the only one who did it in the 20th century. Of course he is.

5,000? When you could kill people? When you could kill people is so important. And neither of his receivers were in the Hall of Fame. Fame. Right. I mean, who were his guys? Who was he throwing to? You know, like, I used to make the argument, you know, who were Tom Brady's best in, who was Tom Brady's best in prime wide out? Not slot receiver, not Titan, best in prime wide out. It's still Dion Branch. Because Randy Moss was in his 11th year when he went to, when he went to New England. But look at him. Yeah. I mean, he still, he's still, it may have been into prime, but it was. But it was still, it was still legit. I'm saying, he's still legit. But I'm talking. Imagine. Imagine having Randy Moss. Like 26-year-old Randy Moss. Come on, man.

But who was Dan Marino throwing to? Right. And I'm not saying that Dupor and Clayton weren't great players. I'm saying they're not in the Hall of Fame. Right. So the question for me is always the criteria for these sports are just very, very different. And the way that we look at it is different. And one of the questions that I have for you, even though this is your show, but I will do some interviewing of you, is why is that to you?

is the football dynamic simply too harsh? Do we have to be, should you expect a little bit more leeway when it comes to that signature versus, I mean, okay, if you're going to give the quarterback the credit for throwing it, how come you're not giving anybody credit for catching it? I just think that it's so many players

and so few slots. Yeah. Right? And it's so much that requires feel. Like every now and then you look up, like I saw this the other day, like even Cliff Branch is an interesting example. And the Pro Bowl is a much different metric now than it was then,

because then everybody who got invited to the Pro Bowl went. Yeah, because it was a free vacation to Hawaii. Right. And now what it means to be in the Pro Bowl, I mean, Shradua Sanders in a manner of speaking was a Pro Bowl. Well, they should abolish the Pro Bowl. Yeah, yeah. But using it as using that metric as, oh, okay, this is how good you were.

Cliff Branch is a four-time Pro Bowler. that means something different now. Like I used that against Matthew Stafford that he was only a three-time pro bowler because I'm like, damn, Kirk Cousins went to four, you know? Like, you know, but back then, four-time pro-bolo doesn't mean the same thing,

but you look up one day and Jimbo Coveord went to three pro bowls and now just one year they decided they were going to put him in the Hall of Fame. Yeah, that's right. And Richmond Webb is at the house like, hey, I don't know exactly what's going on. It can be weird to tell what, if there's a line, what the line is,

but I get the idea that the line in football is just going to be really, really high, but it's also going to be about field. Baseball is interesting because baseball's Hall of Fame has largely traffic in absolute raw numbers. Individual team sport. Right, at a time where statistical analysis is much more inclined toward rates and percentages. But every now and then, we know when these raw numbers, like everybody's got 3,000 hits is in, basically. But you're certain milestones. Yeah, but you were never going to convince me to 3,000 hit 500 home run Raphael Palmero steroids and

that was no Hall of Famer. Never one time in my life did I watch that man play baseball and think I was watching the Hall of Famer. Like it used to be that 400 was guaranteed to get you in. And then Dave Kingman happened. And people were like, hey, you know, maybe 400 isn't quite enough. I know people, Bo, who say that steroids or no steroids, Mark McGuire is not a Hall of Fame. I'm like, you're out of your mind.

I mean, just from a, just from a, from the standpoint of signature play, like, I put that stuff into consideration. Did you put asses in the seats? Like, who came to watch you play? Did people come to see you play? Does that matter? I mean, and, and that's, what about, what about Jose? No. Now what's the difference? The difference is that he flamed out too fast. Jose, Jose became a character by 92. You know, 88 to 90, Jose, now we're talking. You're saying that's why McGuire gets to be weird because he flamed out too.

He had his down years until he got to St. Louis. Until somebody got that match. Remember the year before, or the year he got to St. Louis, he was killing in Oakland, too, because he had 58. Yeah, 58 home runs. Then he lit that fire. He got some kerosy, you know what I'm saying?

Got a little gas. And that might be one of the reasons why people, you know, look at him and say, come on, because he did hit 201 one year. And so, I mean, let's not forget the 201 year. And so, yeah, but I do think that all of these different things, and it takes the, I mean, the Hall of Fame is extremely important. It's like, it's like some more bullshit that we'll get to, which is the awards.

Like there's one sitting right behind you, right? The Emmys and the Oscars and the rest of it. I mean, they're important to the people who win them. They are not necessarily important to the enjoyment of the product, right? I mean, do you enjoy a movie less because it doesn't win best picture? Not for me. I don't, which is why the online stuff is different. But the whole thing is different.

And I do think it's important to take into consideration not just the statistics, not just the field, not just the numbers and the time, but also the way we consume it, like the online component. Now you have all these people who used to be able to live in in an ininibity. Now they have to write think pieces as to here's why I voted for. Justin Herbert. I'm the one that didn't put Pedro Martinez on the MVP. Now you have to justify and now you have, you know, everybody's a, well, you know, if you don't do this, then you should have your vote taken away. Well, let's be clear about that. The people who want their vote taken away is from

people who want their vote. Right. Right. Like this is the argument that I make on baseball. Where do we get it wrong with the baseball writer? Seriously. I mean, seriously, I'm asking you, seriously. The Baseball Writers Association of America, we're really, really, really good. Like, there are very few people. If you take the drugs out of it and take Pete Rose out of it, the extenuating sermon, who's not in who's supposed to be in? Most of the time, I would say our, I would say our success rate is pretty damn high. Gary Sheffield's the only one. Gary Sheffield's associated with Balco. Yeah.

Well, also, he had 509 home runs. Of course, Chef's a Hall of favor. Also, they fixed, they fixed the Andrew Jones error. Now we're, now we're all square. Well, Andrew Jones was another one. Well, but once again, Andrew Jones is in some ways as a victim of his own success. You start balling at 19. People want to see that.

I say, now we're all square. Now we're all square. Agreed. But, I mean, Al Oliver's got 2,800 hits. Bill Buckner's got 2,700 hits. Johnny Damon's got 2,700 hits. Bill Madlock, right? Madlock, you know, batting champion, what, four times, right?

I mean, so there are guys, but also, let's not forget that you also have to live within your time. And if you didn't live within that time, then you don't understand some of the anger and the feelings and the hard feelings. The 70s get screwed for two major reasons. One, you're coming out of the golden age. All those old-time voters who saw Ruth and DiMaggio and Mantle, them old dudes saw, were watching a different sport. Two, labor. Everybody in baseball hates each other. They all fucking hate each other.

And they don't get along. And you add labor and drugs to the 70s and the 80s. And a lot of dudes paid that price, you know, because of the hard feelings. And so labor and drugs to the 70s is what steroids is to the 90s and early 2000s. and you can't you can't escape that human element dudes don't I mean they and and and that's the other piece oh well you know I mean if you didn't play the game you shouldn't have a vote those dudes are settling scores in the Veterans Committee worse than us well that bitch spiked me in a 10 to one game in 1977 whoa right they you know what I mean like they literally are settling scores from shit

that happened in the game the elephant memories boy Mm-hmm, especially in baseball. And the funny thing about baseball is their recall is unreal. Then you go back and check, and I'm like, how did you remember this? Oh, man, 3-1 pitch, 1973, man, Chase Stadium, it was raining. And it's, then you go look it up and you're like, wow. Right, to the decibel. Exactly.

Like, I remember talking to Ralph Gar about this. And this is a true story when I was working on the Hank Aaron book. Ralph Gar was talking about a road trip about here's let me tell you why I respect Henry Aaron so much and he's telling this story about this hot shot pitcher in San Francisco who's talking all kinds of shit and is completely brash and you know is the hot new thing you know guys old timers aren't remember him John the Count Montefusco and he's pitching for the Giants and he's like and Henry was talking about how I got something for the count I got something for the count I didn't You know, he was called the count back there. I looked that stuff up. And Gator had the, he had the

weekend down. He had the inning down. I was like, why do you remember this 40 years ago? But that's baseball for you. But once again, so this idea that you had to play the game in order to know what you were looking at is insulting. And it also doesn't take into account the human element of why people do the voting. I mean, okay, I feel bad for him. I really do. But we didn't put Harold Baines in the Hall of Fame. They put Harold Baines in the Hall of Fame.

Right. Well, also, go look at how terribly quite often those guys are when they get to put together teams. No, that's exactly. The eye for talent is not necessarily, like, I think they have a great eye for certain things they need to be or should be respected. Yeah. That if you don't participate.

You have to know. Yeah, yeah, they got gain, right? Yeah, but yeah, you're right. They come up with a bunch of stuff. I would just throw this one out here because I'm curious. I don't think we've talked about this. Do you think Eli Manning is a Hall of Fame? All right, let's do it.

I'm going to ask you, all right? By my criteria, I want you to give me your up, down yes, no. Mm-hmm. Dominant. No. Longevity. Sort of. Signature.

Signature for his time. This is where he's. gets ambiguous depending on who you are. I say no. Moment. Yes. It's got two of them. It's got two huge moments. And both of them involved a horseshoe and a keister. That's right. That's right. And so if I don't know how many of those you, you think will push you over the edge. but I think it's okay for you to have a moment and to be great and to be very, very good in your time and to win two Super Bowls over Tom Brady and the dynasty and still not be a Hall of Famer and have that not hurt you.

Yeah, I think that's why they retire jerseys. That's exactly. And in football, it's even worse in some ways because in football they don't retire jerseys. They retire names because they don't have, they run out of numbers. Yeah. But the Giants, interestingly, they retired Phil Sims jersey. Yep. And they've retired Eli Mannings. And Eli Mannings, yeah, two quarterbacks and of course, LT.

But I mean, seriously, when you think about that, I think one thing that we have to do and that we don't do a good job of it, in fact, it's getting worse because of the online component. First of all, now not only do you have to be a Hall of Famer, but you have to be unanimous if the pitchforks are coming down your street. Yes. Anyone that didn't vote for you. What's wrong with you? We're going to kill you.

You know, you didn't vote for player X. and that the one position that everybody says was devalued is the closer, and the closer happens to be the only unanimous guy, which is Mariano Rivera. And then the other thing that we also have to do, whether it's football, baseball, the rest of the basketball, whatever, is I think we have to be okay with not being a Hall of Famer. I mean, the Hall of Fame to me, I still like, you know, in baseball they say the small hall guy. I still believe that that thing should be a really, really exclusive club. I think it should be seriously exclusive,

that this is where the best of the best of the best, that's where they reside. Some people feel very, very differently. Some people feel like, no, this is where you remember your favorites. This is where you remember your signature guys. This is where you remember your, like we talk about eras. this is where you celebrate your eras. It's a very different Hall of Fame

if you're celebrating eras than if you are celebrating the very best of the best of the best. This has been a fun hour, brother. For real. Well, like 50 minutes, but still, a good time. Howard Bryant. Also, don't forget to check out,

Kings and Ponds. If you have not checked it out, it is available at fine booksellers. It is a very good book. We did a wonderful event at the Jackie Robinson and museum. Shout out to everybody who checked it out and came and hung

out with us. How I was starred a show trying to be all shy and trying to act like he don't like people. Looking like you can see is the sunshine just wanted to jump all up out of his black ass heart. It just all wanted to come out there. It was wonderful to be there for. Oh, man. I enjoyed being there with you, especially

because what was great about it afterwards was the number of people who watch a show. That was fun. And the number of people who got to, I felt sort of silly. It was like, oh, I only see you when you're on Bumani show. I'm like, well, I do other things, you know. But no, it was great.

And thank you for doing it. It was a lot of fun. No, no problem. Thanks to the good folks at the Jackie Robinson Museum for having me out and doing all of that. And ladies and gentlemen, thanks so much for joining us here on the right time. We do this four times a week. Ryan Brumley, hand a thing behind the scenes. Thank you, sir.

hit the voicemail 323-5-9-6-7-67. Also, we are taking President's Day off, so we will be back on Tuesday with our second installment of our 1996 in hip-hop series with my man DJ Wavi Sparks. Remember, follow the right time, subscribe, like, rate us, review us, give us five stars, you only give us four stars I'm inclined to believe you are. Hater, we'll talk to you guys in a couple of days. Take it easy.