The Right Time with Bomani Jones - Joel Anderson on Tupac's Legacy 30 years after his death | 09.15

Episode Date: September 15, 2026

On this episode of Time Machine Tuesday,  Bomani Jones is joined by Joel Anderson, a historian of the Tupac-Biggie Beef and a world-class hater.  Download the PrizePicks app today and use code BOMANI to get $150 instantly in Lineups if you win your first $5 Lineup! https://prizepicks.onelink.me/LME0/BOMANI  They break down the conviction of Keefe D in the murder of Tupac Shakur and why the verdict still can not bring closure to Tupac's family or fans. Joel shares stories from his reporting trip through Compton before he and Bomani revisit the violence surrounding Tupac’s death, the people who were never held accountable, and the loved ones who have waited decades for justice. They also reflect on Tupac’s difficult upbringing, remarkable charisma and enduring cultural influence.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Listen to The Girlfriends, Flight or Fight, on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the right time. My name is Beaumani Jones. Thanks for listening wherever you get your podcast. Thanks for watching us on YouTube. Subscribe, like, rate us, review us, give us five stars.

You only give us four stars. I'm inclined to believe you are a hater. It is Time Machine Tuesday. Or, as some people like to call it, Hater Day because Joel Anderson is in the house. Man, look, as I told you all, I think more and more people are recognizing that. I'm much more of a lover.

It's the opposite. It's the opposite. It's the opposite. I'm much more of a lover than a fighter and a hater. No, no, no. You may be more of a lover than a fighter, but you're a hater above all else. Trust me. My favorite thing about it is you think that people get more exposure to you

and you think that they've heard the opposite of what the rest of us have learned with more exposure. I would say that I have, I do have strong opinions about a lot of things. And if people want to call that hate, that's fine. I'm okay being a man comfortable with being emphatic about my beliefs in the inner world where a lot of people want to ride the fence. You know what I'm saying?

I'll knock that fence motherfucking over. Yeah. And your number one thing that you're emphatic about is somebody trying to toss slick to you. I don't, yeah, man. I mean... But even when they're not. Okay, okay, okay. So this is actually very funny because time machine Tuesday,

part of why we hear of... We just had the conviction that Kee-D in the murder trial, Tupac. And it is interesting that Joel has such a problem with people talking slick to him. Yet and still, I will say this, he is courageous. Because even though he has that inclination, that man was riding around Compton the other day looking for Crips. Okay. So let me just give you a little bit of clarification. On this episode, Crip Hunter.

Stop it. I was not looking. Okay. I was looking for Crips, okay. But the context of this is that I, people know, I was in L.A. last week for work to record a podcast. And I was like, while I'm out here, man, I have an opportunity to go to Compton where Kee Fee D. is from and drive around and see if I can find people that know him. And so what I did was I drove around Grape Street, which is one of the streets he was on. And that's one of the crew of the Grape Street Crips.

And some of the, some of the streets around Ralph Waldo Emerson Elementary, people in Compton, and probably another area I'm talking about. So I'm just driving around and I'm looking for old heads in blue. That's what I, because that's my thought. I'm just like, there's a chance this person might know Kee FD, right? That makes sense, like a 50 to 60 year old black man.

And I'm just like, I bet this person might know KPD. Now, I struck out. I didn't actually need anybody than you KFED, or maybe they didn't want to tell me. You know what I'm not like I had a business card a media pass. They may have thought I was a cop. But I just, you know, I thought I might give it a shot.

You know what I'm saying? I ask you this sincerely. Because one thing I admire about you and, like, for real journalists, is Joe pull up on anybody. Joe pulled up on Clarence Thomas mama. You said you put in and you pull up on Josh Rosen's mom at one time and they called the... Josh Rosen's daddy.

That's right. He got so mad. He followed me to my car and had the UCLA SID on the phone while he, you know, He had me in my car. So, yeah. Yeah. Like, Joe, Joel got a question. Joe pull up on you, right?

So, were you like, hey, so, Cah? You know Kee-D? Like, like, how does the approach go when you're on the Crip Hunt and you're looking for people that know Keefe-D? Okay, so, I mean, really, I'm hollering from the car. I really, I only once did I get out of the car. I'm like, yo, what's up, man? My name is Joel.

I'm sorry by the, my name is. I work with a media company and I'm working on a story about Duane Davis, otherwise known as Keefe D. And I know y'all live in this area. He said he lived in this area too. Just want to know if you know his family or you grew up with him, anything like that. And you know, they'd be like, nah, you know, nah, nah, but that's it. I'm always, I try to give everybody chance straight off to be like, hey, look, I'm not here to be a cop or anything. I just want information. If you don't have it, it's okay. I'll get back in my car and leave. Well, this is what I want to know, once again, given how you feel about people getting slick

with you. How did you feel about them people looking you dead in your face and lying that you like that? Right. Well, you know, it's just that's the thing I actually have just gotten used to as a reporter. Like I get, I'm like, okay, I get it. You don't want to talk or whatever. But, yeah, them lying to me is always something that I'm sort of used to. So that's the shade that you can tolerate.

People would be accidentally just saying things and you'll be ready to go through the roof. They look at your face and lie to you. You can handle that. Well, you know what, Beau, also the thing is, and this is going to maybe seem hypocritical, I never understand why people talk to them. I never get it.

I mean, I don't answer my door for nobody. You show up to do anything at my door. I'm not answering the door, bro. I'm sorry. You have a call before you come. It is so interesting how the answer the door thing has changed over the years. Right.

Like I remember very clearly in the year of 1997, I had gone to my parents' house when I was in college. And so I had gone over to my parents' house because I had a car there, but I could only use it on the weekend. And so I went to get the car, apparently had left the lights on

or something like that, and the battery was dead. And so I went next door to the neighbor's house to ask if I could get a jump. Now, granted, these old people, but still, I go to the neighbor's house and I ring the doorbell and the lady come to the door and she asked me what I want, but she don't answer the door. And I try to explain, hey, I live next door.

You know, my parents, I know you may not have met me, you know, you ain't met me yet, but my parents who just moved in next door, batteries did, da-da-da. And she told me that she couldn't, you know, give me a jump. But she said she had a charger. I said, okay, cool. And I don't remember exactly how this part went. but I do remember the charger was on the porch. Like, I don't know what happened in the in-between

where I left and came back and it was on the porch. Oh, yeah. But she did not open the door for me to be there at all. And I remember having to, like, kind of have it explained to me the vulnerability of old people. Oh, yeah, yeah. Because it was so bizarre to me,

this unwillingness to open the door. That's right. Back then, we still opened the door for strangers. Like, we still did this. And so the idea of, like, being a journalist and knocking on somebody's door wasn't nearly as crazy 30, 40 years ago.

Yeah. Now where this dude I do not know has come to my door. Like Josh Rose's daddy would not have called nobody on you 25 years ago. No, not at all. Not at all. And you know what happened?

I did leave like a little note on his door saying who I was. So I wouldn't at that help. He probably saw that and looked at it and was like, all right, I'm going to come out there. But yeah, no, I mean, I have a who's, Who are people who have, I mean, I pulled up on Ben Carson's brother in Georgia. I pulled up on Thomas Sowell. You pull up on Thomas Sowell?

Sound Soul, yeah. He lives in a Bay Area town, not too far. It was about 20 minutes from earlier. He's Stanford Prof. Yeah, yeah, Stanford Prop. And I knocked on the door. And he didn't, the first time, nothing happened the second time. I knocked on it.

He said, who is it? And I said, who I was. He's like, no. And I said, all right, that's good. Oh, I figured he'd be the type does down to No, man. You tell that story. Do you have this happen to you?

Like when conservative white people like me more than they expect to? Oh, yeah. And I'd be like, yeah, you know, I really, you know, I don't always agree with you, but I really like, you know, things that you, a lot of things that you have to say. And, you know, you seem really smart. And so I was just curious, are you familiar with Thomas Sol? That's always the one they go to. That's their one.

And Sol's had a fascinating evolution because Seoul used to be a little bit more on my side. You know what I mean? Yeah, man, no, man. So, I mean, that is, that's one of Clarence Thomas's O.Gs, man. Like, he helped get him in the game. So, yeah, I thought of him as a fascinating figure. I really wanted to talk to him.

Like, I mean, and I still do. I mean, he's still alive. He's got to be like 96, 97 years old right now. But, oh, yeah, man. And so I, look, man, you're right. I will pull up on anybody. And now, everybody in my family think that's crazy. They think that the days of me knocking on people's doors

probably should come to an end. But I'm like, man, sometimes people will do it. Like, how are you going to tell me I shouldn't do it? And Clarence Thomas' mama lit me in her house. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no. So you went, you went, you went, crip hunting. Yeah, you know, I do think you had the right idea, although I will say, sadly, the demographic that you described

is not very populous. Yeah, well, that's not very many got a chance to get over. Yeah, elder gen. elder Gen X living Crips. Right. Because basically, Keefee D feel like the only person, Keevidi and Shud Knight feel like the only two people from the story

still alive. I mean, you know. Oh, and did he? We'll get to that. Oh, yeah, we'll get to that. Kifie D. It was the only person in the car from that night. There were four people in the car

that pulled up on Pock. He's the only one that's still alive. But also, you know what happened to, Bo? And I mean, this is just, I mean, assuming these crips had a chance to get older, they move, man. Like some of the people I talk to that are involved in the store, they live in Riverside County down in Corona, stuff like that. Yeah, they've had to move out the city because even, even that property is too expensive

for them to live in these days. Like they got to move further out of L.A., man. So, yeah, so it's tough. I knew that it was a long shot, but I at least wanted a chance to go over the minute. I drove by the corner where Orlando Anderson got shot. with the old car washer was there right across the street from Compton High School was just funny enough.

But yeah, so I've been to Compton before, but I just felt like, I'm here, I get paid to do this. Why would I not do it, man? It's just fascinating to me. Yeah, so what did you think when you saw the sentence come down for people who don't remember,

Joel did a season of Slow Burn for Slate on the Biggie and Tupac, the rivalry, I guess the murders, it's kind of hard to say. It's not, like, ultimately about that. So you are well-versed in the topic. Yeah. No, I am. You know, it's crazy. I'm not going to say I'm one of the like handful of surviving like Tupac and Biggie, not experts, but people that are like, you know,

really fooling in the case. Yeah. Yeah, but I mean, it really is that. Like, I mean, because I, I mean, I had to do a whole media tour on NPR and, you know, NBC and all these other places. So it's shocking that that has happened to me in my life. But yeah, so you ask me what I thought about the, um, the conviction. I'm not surprised. I'm not surprised because I think that there is a desire among a lot of people to close this, as if it can actually be closed. And the idea that somebody who was talking all this shit for over a decade, I did it, I did it, I wrote a book about it. I'm making money off of it. And it just kept pressing people that eventually somebody was going to pull his card and this is their way of trying to close it.

And I think that there are a lot of people, prosecutors, people in the law enforcement, you know, people that are like sort of fans of Tupac but don't follow closely, they think that that means closure. And there was a desire to get that. But I think if you get a little closer to home and talk to people that are still involved in it,

it's not, that's a piece of it. That's one chapter that's closed, but there's still a whole book to be written on it. You know, so I want to talk, this is a great point you make there, just kind of the general idea of closure in this. and in terms of for me, at least in my perception of it, and I don't want to speak too much about anybody else.

But just as I heard that and what I thought about is, who is it? Was it Biden that gave the pardon to Marks Garvey? Man, is that right? Did he do it? I remember it came up, right? But I can't remember if the pardon for Garvey was actually given. I don't think he actually got it.

But, oh, we did get it. He passed. But the, no. Biden did it. Your final day in office. Yeah, Biden didn't. So to me, I was kind of on a shoulder-strug situation. Like, I mean, okay, the brother's been dead now for, you know, however many years.

Right. If that's what we're doing, I guess, right? But then I was talking to somebody who knows these things, and he was like, it's really important to the Garvey family that this be done. Wow. Like the idea that he not be treated as a legitimate enemy of this state toward whom he truly did nothing. That was the thing for them.

They wanted that. And right, I had the same response you did. I was like, oh, okay, I thought they would have just thought it was some nonsense. Like, I get it with some of these cats that would be part because, like, damn, I want to vote. Yeah, right. Like, I don't want it to put in this paperwork every time I go do X, Y, and Z. I want to own a casino. Yeah.

Yeah. Right. But I got it. But like with a dead person, it's like the Jack Johnson part, right? Or the idea of that. It was just kind of like, I mean, if you say so. But then I heard that family cared.

And I was like, oh, I have to look at that differently. I forget who, it may have been Jeff Weiss. I can't remember. It was written something after the conviction and kind of describing the whole scene and everything. And it mentioned the members of Tupac's family who were in court and who were weeping when this was done. and I think a big part of it is because we so closely and readily associate Tupac with his mother who is dead now. Right.

But I had kind of forgotten in a way that this isn't actually just about us. Oh, yeah. Like us being the larger population, the fans, people with like a voyeuristic curiosity, whatever it is. Like I had managed to really divorce myself from the idea that there are still people who view themselves as. siblings, cousins, whatever it is, of Tupac. Right.

Right. And it's not like he has a huge family at this point anymore, right? Like, Afini, I mean, yeah, there's set. There's Afini. Moprene is his brother-in-law. And I mean, there is his father who is not really involved in his life. But in terms of people that were really close to him that were related to him, there's just not many of them around.

And so, yeah, I could imagine that that was very cathartic for set. that day, like to see, oh, wow, like somebody, one person is being held accountable, which is not the same thing as everyone being held accountable. But one person is being held accountable and that had to, I mean, I'm sure in that moment it had to feel cathartic. Yeah, and it's just, I found, I found myself as I was reading a couple of those recaps. And I talked about this like very briefly, um, on the show earlier in the last week. but it was really wild to go back and think about what those times were

and to really get a grasp or handle on the breadth of the violence of that time. Right. So like right now, my current fascination I was telling you about this off air is I'm reading these books about 1980s, Miami. And it is cartoonish the level of violence that that city was undergoing with the cocaine trade and everything else. Where people are just showing up and getting killed, dudes like, It was, it's every book I've read about this, when they get to talking about murders, it's just so matter of fact, because it's like if you study Miami in that time, you can't get so charged up about people getting killed because everybody was getting killed.

Like it was crazy. It was rampant. It was callous, right? Like it was almost flippant the way that people were getting killed. And then like you mentioned, all those people that were in the car, KVD is the only one that's alive. Even if we're not talking about people that were in that car, like almost all the major figures when you go around and talking about this are literally dead or in jail.

Like the 90s in general, if you weren't there, like I hadn't thought about this because we were young when it happened, right? But like the idea the songs like that, the gangstalline song. This is for my home. My home man. Right. Like or like both those crossroads.

Funeral dirges. We're on the radio and highly relatable content. Like ghetto boys six feet deep is a single. because people are truly burying so many of their friends and family. Right, yeah.

The 80s and 90s were crazy. I mean, I think people have talked about this a lot, but that was like the height of violent crime in America. Like the late 80s to about the mid-90s was where it was. And that's, you know, the term super predator comes out of, right? And they were coming up with the three strikes in your outlaw. And there was so many laws that were passed

to get a handle on that. But yeah, I mean, it was, I mean, really scary. I mean, in retrospect, my parents I always thought, y'all tripping, man, why y'all so scared about me going out, doing this or whatever, going out? But if I was consuming the news that they were and living in the times that they were at that time, I might feel the same way.

Because you mentioned all the bloodshed around this. So the day after Tupac gets shot, not even the day he dies. Like in Compton, something happened that at least a few people are called the 10 Days War. or the bloods and the cribs went off on each other. They were just retaliatory shootings for like 10 to 12 days. And at least three people died.

Many more was shot. And I was like, yo, like, that's just collateral. Like that's to the rest of us, that's just a number, a number of people. But I was like, yo, people actually had to live through that. And so, yeah, it's kind. I mean, most of them are young. We're not talking about 50-year-old people, man, that are getting caught up in this. These are like kids, basically, that are getting shot.

over this stuff. Yeah, and then Orlando Anderson, aka Baby Lane, who just about everybody believes is the man who killed Tupac, right? Like, especially if you believe this verdict is legitimate, then that's basically what it is.

Because KVD's thing is, I had to, I was on the side of, I would have to shoot across the driver. I passed the gun across, boom, you know, then they shot, then they shot. Tupai, he dies a year later, all something completely different. Well, that's how I'm saying.

He just got shot at a car wash right across the street from Compton High School and it was, you know, it was some game shit, right? But again, that's just what it was, man. And that's all the music we were consuming was about that stuff, like at that time. Like, we didn't know. Yeah, because you were right.

Like, this was for my homies was like to me like sort of a goofy song. Yes. Right? I'm just like, man, what you talking about, man? Come on, dog. Man, it was cats here. And that like, yes.

Yeah, man, that shit was hitting them hard. I mean, I wish by R. Kelly. Not quite the same thing I will tell you this though My best friend died a month before that song came out And buddy that song hit hard as a ton of bricks Hey man that song can quit catching your throat If you lost somebody in your life bro

At that time So yeah I totally get it man I totally get it Yeah no so this is I don't know like I know that there's an element And I want to get to this a little bit later about whether this continues into something else

but I kind of want to talk to you about it in part just because you know you and I grew up at a time when we defended a lot of stuff because we really felt like if you was attack a rap you was attacking us you know like like it was it felt very personal and I'm not saying that those attacks ultimately weren't personal or people didn't necessarily go too far

but I now look back at this as a legitimate middle age man and I look back at those times and like you just said I can't imagine what it was like for our parents to see, and these these are just, like, these dudes ain't just like some hoods, you got to worry that your friends

ain't, that your kids are going to hang out with. They're stars, right? Like they are the personification, like the artists are the personification of everything you're trying to prevent. Yeah, yeah. Well, so, so that season of Biggie and Tupac that I did,

it's my least favorite of the narrative pods I've done just because I was so new to it. But my favorite episode from that is actually about C. Dolores Tucker. Yeah. Okay. And C. Dolores Tucker, for many people, she was a civil rights activist in Pennsylvania, sort of a failed politician, but she took up the crusade against gangster rap.

Like her Reverend Calvin Butts, who's up there in Harlem and some other folks, really going hard against rap. And so at the time, I'm thinking they're buffoons. I'm like, you know, you signed with Tipa Gore against Tupac? Right. You know what I'm saying? Just because he's going to call you a bitch?

You know what I'm saying? Yeah. And so at the time, I'm like, oh, these old people are being ridiculous. And I'm sure that they had their own music and the piece of their culture that the generation before them found to be regressive or whatever else. But as I get older, and especially as I read about C. Delorsuch-I was like, man, I cannot believe they were out there talking about this old black lady like this, bro. Just because she thought it was a little cuckoo for Cocoa Puss on top of it.

Like, that was one thing that the series also pointed out. But I do look back on it now and be like, all day and we was tripping. Like, have you seen Snoop talk about that time? that they, that, uh, D.I. Warwick called her and Shug over. I have heard that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so for those who don't know this, D.I. W. Snoop tells the story that D.R. Warrick called Shug and Snoop talk about the lyrics and talk about the music. And then she looked at them both.

It was like, call me a bitch. Sitting right here. Uh-huh. Call me a bitch to my face. Uh-huh. And it's like, whoa. And the way Snoop put it, D.O. Warwick was the biggest gangster in the room that day. Now, granted, it ain't really changed nothing they did.

No, they kept moving how they were moving. But however, they did get the point. Absolutely. Like, the point was very clear. And I felt that way about Tucker, too, where, like, you know, Dolores Tucker, you're a motherfucker. Yeah. Instead of trying to help a brother,

you attack a brother. It's like, hey, now I look back on it. I'm kind of like, on the gender type stuff. Yeah, like all of that, I get it. But also just on the levels of violence, like that clip of Quincy Jones recalled all the rappers together and was like, hey man yeah i don't think y'all see the direction that everything is going in but those are really

the times like when people talk about that oppressive crime bill in the 90s it's a reason all your favorite black congresspeople voted for that somebody had to do something it was very scary america in the 80s and 90s was really it was really scary to a lot of people they did not seen that kind of violence at that scale in modern history. And so, yeah, so, I mean, again, whereas today we have the, you know, the benefit of hindsight and to think, oh, I don't know if we should have imprisoned all those black people like that. At the time, you're like, you said, I'm like, man, we got to do something about this, bro. Like, the neighborhoods are overrun. People were scared. My parents were scared. You know what I mean? And so I get it, even though

by today's standards, they weren't necessarily right. And then when we think about the fact that the gangster rap or whatever was an organic phenomenon. However, Washington white people saw the NWA

could sell 2 million records straight out of Compton without no radio. Now this is a sellable commodity, right? And what I said forever, boy, I don't think when public enemy put out that music sick at our mess age album, I have

never seen an entire ecosystem around an industry all come together to destroy one of its heroes. Like they flat out came to destroy public enemy when that record came out. They were able to survive Professor Griff saying that the Jews were responsible

for 70% of the wickedness. They did an album critiquing gangster rap and it was over. Yeah, man. Nobody wanted to hear that shit, man. They were moving too, many units. And the funny thing is, is that we kind of all knew what was happening. Because people, I don't know if people here are old enough to remember watch CB4 and Fear of a Black Hat, which was a spoof of all these gangster rappers or whatever and like the stuff

that, the things that they would do to get on, and they would take a bunch of buffoons, dudes who were not actually gangsters, and try to sell this music to folk. And it was like, yeah, I mean, I could kind of see that. But actually, let me ask you, Bo. Did you think, Ice Cube was a gangster for real? When you were growing up, did you think Easy E was a gangster for real? I wasn't sure. So I think the trick bag on that for me is that you are two years older than me, which is enough of an age gap to make a difference for the discussion that we're having right now.

Mm-hmm. Right? By the time I was really in a place to be trying to figure out what those people were, Dr. Dr. Dre had told me that they was not gangsters. Because Cube is the one that always has to answer for it, above all else. He's always the one. All the disc records against Cube and nobody

had more disc records made against him in that time than Cube. It was all you went to the high school in the Valley, went to high school in the Valley, and you wouldn't really know gangster. But you go back and you listen to those Cube records. And at the very least, he sounds very familiar with what the gangsters do. Yeah, man.

So he got a lot of credit for living in the neighborhood, which I guess like, I mean, a lot of us, and if we want to be real with ourselves, we take our affiliation with our neighborhood if you grew up in a particular neighborhood is the means to say that you tough, right? And it confers credibility upon you. It confers credibility on you. But, you know, I talked to Ice Cube for a story I did for Slate a few years ago. And talking to him, he's just a really creative person. He's really good at telling story. And so it doesn't matter to the difference if he was doing it in rap, movies, whatever else, writing about different kinds of rap, doing that West Coast boogie shit that he was doing with WC or whatever.

You know? So, like, he just was a really talented guy and he was very convincing, and he had some proximity to it. And so I was like, I don't know if these dudes are real or not, but it sounds real, at least I know this shit is hard and I want to hear, you know what I'm saying?

I mean, DJ Quick. You think DJ Quick? I mean, and I love DJ Quick. Well, DJ Quick was very much so of blood Yeah. Like, but do I think he was a gangster? I know he was a member of the gang with a, with a, with a, with a, with a, with a performance at the source awards in front of MC8 with the, with the, with the red

handkerchief hanging out his pocket, bro. I mean, dollars. Dollars and cents, man. I was like, damn, bro. I mean, yeah, very different. Eight, because the G ain't in you. Like, that was a rap battle between two guys that weren't that great at rat. However, the, quick guy.

jabs, but quick got beats. Oh yeah. That's his thing. That's his thing. He's an amazing musician, as you know. All right. Coming up next, we got more on this Tupac trial with Joel Addison. The Hard Rock Bet Casino app is here, Ontario. It's safe, secure, and crystal clear with fast payouts and 24-7 local support.

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and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them. I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are the Survivor Files. I just remember this low-tom. wanting voice next to my ear saying shut up, don't say anything. Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable. I knew if he woke up, without a doubt, he was going to hurt me. I started feeling that there was someone at the end of my bed, and I just started screaming. They are abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced.

But these aren't stories about what's taken from them. There's stories about what it takes to make it out alive. Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home. This is Prose Society, the weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for thought daughters, pop culture obsessives, and anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of distancing. course. I'm Eli Rallo and every week we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and the conversations everyone can't stop having. I'm going to have to look up this story.

I'm obsessed. So I'm obsessed. From bestselling authors and your favorite book talk creators to the latest pop culture moments, nothing is off the table. It's like if you can hide some real messages inside compelling characters, then that is a Trojan horse. Whether you're looking for literary deep dives, smart pop culture conversations, or a community of readers who love to think a little too much, you're in the right place. Listen to Pro Society on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. See you between the pages.

Hi, this is Kylie Breakman. Angel Geratana. Jeremy Colhain. Patrick McDonald. And we're the hosts of the Artists on Artists on Artists on Artists Podcast. The Improvised Character Comedy Podcast where each week a new panel of artists discuss their craft. Join us for a panel of wellness influencers.

What I try to do is faux journal. I don't know. Have you guys heard of faux journaling? Yeah, it's reading. It's called reading. So we don't like to use that word anymore. Okay. A panel of New Yorker cartoonists.

Have you guys done Terry Gross's Peloton class? No! I've been dying too. I'm so sorry. I'm seeing a reading of Sadako in the thousand paper cranes by Audra McDonald's at the Wonderland Bookstore on 14. That's crazy. I went to the Wonderland Bookstore yesterday,

and I heard Nora Jones do a reading of Zero Dark Thirteen. No way. You have to come to the last bookstore, though. Kim Cottrell is reading the guitar tabs of yesterday. A panel of Eurovision participants. And we do a little Halloween sometimes. Does the Pope dress up? He winks on Halloween.

It's right up next to the microphone. I hear you can almost hear the eyelashes hit each other. You never seen Italy so quiet as when the Pope gets up to wink on Halloween. Listen to artists on artists on artists on the IHeart Radio app. Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Football is finally back and prize picks is bringing out their best offer yet. New users who sign up will get $150 in lineups if you win your first $5 lineup.

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pay credit. Visit bell.ca for details and to check availability. Bell, connection is everything. When I was 14 years old, I was kidnapped and held captive for nine months. I survived, and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them. I'm Elizabeth smart, and these are the survivor files. I just remember this low, taunting voice next to my ear saying, shut up, don't say anything. Every week, I'm with survivors who lived through the unthinkable. I knew if he woke up, without a doubt, he was going to hurt me. I started feeling that there was someone at the end of my bed, and I just started screaming.

They are abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced. But these aren't stories about what's taken from them. There's stories about what it takes to make it out alive. Listen to the Survivor Files with Elizabeth Spell. on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home. This is Prose Society, the weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for

thought daughters, pop culture obsessives, and anyone who thinks pride and prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse. I'm Eli Rallo, and every week we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and the conversations everyone can't stop having. I'm going to have to look up this story. I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed. From bestselling authors and your favorite book talk creators to the latest pop culture moments, nothing is off the table.

It's like if you can hide some real messages inside compelling characters, then that is a Trojan horse. Whether you're looking for literary deep dives, smart pop culture conversations, or a community of readers who love to think a little too much, you're in the right place. Listen to Pro Society on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. See you between the pages.

Hi, this is Kylie Breakman. Angel Geratana. Jeremy Colhane. Patrick McDonald. And we're the hosts of the Artists on Artists on Artists on Artists Podcast. The Improvised Character Comedy Podcast where each week a new panel of artists discuss their craft. Join us for a panel of wellness influencers. What I try to do is faux journal.

I don't know. Have you guys heard of faux journaling? Yeah, it's reading. It's called reading. So we don't like to use that word anymore. Okay. A panel of New Yorker cartoonists. Have you guys done Terry Gross's Peloton class?

No! I've been dying too. I'm so sorry. I'm seeing a reading of Sadako and the Thousand Paper Cranes by Audra McDonald's at the Wonderland Bookstore on 14. That's crazy. I went to the Wonderland Bookstore yesterday and I heard Nora Jones do a reading of Zero Dark 30. No way. You have to come to the last bookstore, though.

Kim Cottrell is reading the good. guitar tabs of yesterday. A panel of Eurovision participants. And we do a little Halloween sometimes. Does the Pope dress up? He winks on Halloween. He gets right up next to the microphone. I hear you can almost hear the eyelashes hit each other.

You never seen Italy so quiet as when the Pope gets up to wink on Halloween. Listen to artists on artists on artists on artists on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. All right. We are back with Joel. Landison. I have been waiting for this to turn into a ditty situation with Keefe D and the plea. KVD, and I guess I also need to spell this out for some people who haven't paid attention to this or are not on these corners of the internet because God knows I'm not really on those corners of the internet. KVD spent the last few years doing these pay-for-play interviews that wind

they're getting chopped up and aggregated on the internet. And he was convicted off of the stories that he was telling about all of this on the internet. Was the M.F. Doom line, seeing court and be their own star witness? Like, this was him. I mean, it's basically what the evidence was

that they used against him. And the defense was, you know, I just, you know I'd be lying. He was lying, dog. He's a liar, bro. Not even he's a liar. I'm a liar. Like, yeah. Like, that was the defense. Like, man. I'd be out here saying shit, dog.

I don't really be out here killing people like that. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Which is, I will say, it is a compelling argument because Kifie D needed money. Like, I mean, I would, the reason he's telling these stories, these pay for play interviews, while he's going on DJ Vlad and art of dialogue and not talking to me who called him is because I wasn't willing to give him $7,000. You know what I'm saying?

I don't know if that was a going rate, but I know somebody who said, he would only do an interview starting at $7,000. So, yeah. I had wondered if a big part of this was, because he had been dialed his, he beat colon cancer, which is pretty pretty. I feel like, well, see, this is the part where he's, I don't know if he's a lie or not.

Because in his book, Compton Street Legend, he talks about he beat cancer already. When I talked to him in 2019 for just a few minutes, he said he had cancer. And then they're saying he's had cancer sometime. I mean, cancer comes back, so I don't know. Maybe he's dealt with it a few times, but colon cancer don't seem like one of those ones you hear about, I beat colon cancer.

Not a lot of people, not a lot of people win that one. It's like him and Eric Davis. Yeah, right. Oh, shit, that's right. Yeah, like not a lot of people win that one. But I had wondered if they, hey, man, that being in touch of your mortality put you in touch with a lot of things. But I had thought that maybe he just got out here to ramble just because he didn't think

he had long left, whatever it is. Who knows what kind of guilt? that you get riddle with at that point. All your potteners is dead, basically, right? Like, you just talk about you, try to cruise the block, looking, looking for middle-aged crypts. That don't, you know, that's not really a thing. So, it's interesting.

So you don't watch none of these, you don't watch none of these Vlad clips with Bob James and none of them folk. I mean, like, I can't say I haven't seen any. Okay. But, like, not to the place where I could tell you what was going. I can remember them. Okay.

If Keefei D says that he has any remorse about this, I know he lying about that. I know he's lying about it. He's just, I mean, because the ways in which he's described his involvement in it is so callous and so shockingly inhumane that there's just no, I can't see how he would have flipped on that. And that was up till recently. Like in 2023, he's given, this is one of the interviews that got his ass busted and to make them charge him. And they said, you know, shit, if I got to go to jail, I got to go to jail. I ain't like I'm scared to jail.

You know what I'm saying? So he, he, I felt like he really, really had to. that gangster ethos in that way. It was like, yo man, it was some gang shit. Tupac got involved in it. He had no business in it. And business got handled. I mean, if he felt guilt about Tupac, just imagine how much other guilt

he would have to feel. It would be tough to go on with his life out of bad. So that's why I think you make a fair point, but that's why I can't help one with their son. But he's like, if I got to go to jail, I just got to go to jail. Hey, man, don't know about I be wishing jail upon themselves? You know what I mean? Like, it's a, it was

such self-destructive behavior. that it makes me question whether there's like a subconscious desire. Could be. For like for some level of punishment and emolation in the course of this. Because otherwise it doesn't make any sense. But where I started on this, he's basically always, basically always claimed that he did it because Diddy said he gave him $100,000 in order to do it. And that did he never gave him the $100,000. No, a million dollars.

A million dollars. That's right. He put a million on the heads of parking big, he called him big CEO, Shug, allegedly. And so it was 500,000 for one, 500,000 for the other. And the go-between was this Harlem businessman, drug entrepreneur named Zip. And he's the guy that was a go-between. So you mentioned that like Kee-FeedD and the Crips had done security for Puffy in California when they would perform out there.

And so they had a relationship. Oh, I'll just say this real quick because I don't know people ever know this. And I love to talk about it. Do you remember the Usher Can You Get With It video? Vaguely. Okay. That's his debut song. There's a debut song for Usher comes out.

Devante Swing produces it. And there's a low rider in the car that Usher is performing on. He's like laying on it is just running down street. That's Kee Fee Dee's lowrider. Oh, wow. That's Keefe De's lowrider. So they did have some sort of a relationship, okay? And the night of the, the night of the boxing fight in Vegas.

people find out, okay, Pock and Shug and the other, you know, the other guys from Death Row were involved with this beat down. And somehow Zip is in Vegas that night, runs into Keefe and his crew, hands him the gun. This is according to Keefei,

hands him the gun and says, tonight's tonight. This is time to do it. And then a few hours later, Tupac is dead, okay? So, I mean, it depends on what you want to believe, dog. But Keefei D has told that story over and over and over again.

And he told the story in his proffer. In his proffer, right? So he couldn't get, I mean, if he was lying to those cops, he really put, he really would have exposed himself to more risk. So that's something that he said, thinking that stuff was never going to get out. Keefei D never expected any of this to give out when he made that deal. But when he made the deal, the guy that was the leading detective on the case left the force because he got forced out, people accused him

of doing some shady shit. He wrote a memoir, and that's when all this stuff got exposed. And Kee-Feedee D was like, well, damn, man, you put me at risk out here. People know that I did it. I wasn't trying to say that. And so then he was like, you know what? I better start trying to make money off of it then.

Like, I'm the only one that has a story, so let me be the one. Let me be the one to tell that story. Can you imagine a world where Diddy got an answer for this? No. No. There's not enough evidence connecting him to it.

You just have to believe Keefe did. Zip is dead. Zip has been dead for a few years now. And I don't think anybody has the desire to fight him in court over that, right? And that would be, and that's that, well, yeah, I don't think anybody has the desire to fight him on that.

The detective, and I'll just say, Detective Greg Cating, he used to work for the LAPD. He's the one that wrote the book that exposed KPD. And he says, I don't think they really want that. He says, it just would be too hard. The evidence is too circumstantial. he doesn't believe that they're going to do it,

which is unfortunate because there are a lot of people involved in this, that that's what they're hoping for. Look, I told you, when I was watching that documentary about Diddy, Netflix joint, I had never considered the possibility that Diddy had Tupac killed until I watched that. And I was like, boy, this makes a pretty compelling argument, one might say that Diddy was there. My favorite part is one of my buddies in the business I've known now for over 25 years.

And he said he thought it was funny because the documentary basically makes the argument that Diddy was jealous of Tupac because Biggie was so cool with Tupac. And he said he had never considered, he thought it was hilarious that I think Diddy was no kind of gangster. So I ain't think he did that. But then you raised the possibility he's just being messy. And I was like, oh, yeah, I can see it. Yeah.

That's all it took. I was like, oh, he's just messy? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, cool. Got it. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, so there's a couple things of this.

One, you're right. Because the whole time that this East Coast, West Coast beef is going on, I'm thinking, man, why ain't messing with Puffy like that, bro? Like Puffy goes on stage at the Source Awards and he's like, I'm a positive brother. I bring people together. And, you know, this is after Shignight has done that. You know, if you don't want executive producer dancing all into videos, being all in the videos come to death row. So Puffy is like, I'm not even trying to engage in this nonsense.

I'm not trying to fight with these dudes. They fight with me. Why they're fighting with me. But man, it went really deep. And there are more people that have died around this involving Puffy and Shug, than Tupac and Biggie. As they did the dude, the dude Wolf in the club in Atlanta. Yeah, Big Jake. Big Jake. Oh, Big Jake. Yeah. Big Jake. That's Shugg's partner who was a blood, who got killed. I believe, I believe it was at a Jermaine Dupree party in Atlanta, and he gets killed while Shug, and he gets killed by Puffy's guy, Wolf.

Which, yeah, that's right. Wolf did it, and Shug watched it, right? And he blamed Diddy on it. He blamed Ditty immediately. He's like, you did this. You're responsible for this. And Ditt is like, I didn't have nothing to do with this. So he was in the middle of that.

And so I was like, okay, is not reading about that. But then, have you ever read Mark Curry's book? Yes, I have. Dancing with the Devil. Man, Mark Curry is an interesting person, bro. Yes, he is. He is a very interesting dude, and I had the pleasure talking to him for two hours once about this case. You thought it was going to be 30 minutes, did you?

I thought it was going to be 30 minutes. Oh, he told, I never forget this. So he said, you want me to spook you out, man? I'm going to spook you out, and he just takes a long drag off of marijuana. He just told me some shit that spook me out. But when you hear Mark Curry and all, and he makes the point, like all these people that have been associated with Puffy, they always leave off worse for him. Either strung out like Craig Mack, uh, um, black.

Black Rob, Black Rob was strung out, ended up on crack, ended up dying way before time. So it's just like, he's like, yo. Joe, Joe, G. Depp walked himself into the police station and confessed to a cold case murder. Right, bro. I mean, dog, it is believed that Mace left hip hop for church. He became a pastor because of all the stuff he had been connected to a duty.

It was the only way he knew to get away from him. So there's so many people that he's done wrong, fucked over, that are afraid of him. That I was like, oh, okay, I'm not saying that he did it, but Keefei D's accusations, the way he constructs the story, it's compelling. I ain't gonna lie, I'm one of the people. I was hoping this would get Diddy on that one.

Because, you know, hey, man, look, man, if you were responsible for him to have a Tupac killed, I kind of like you to go to jail. Yeah. Well, you know, the other piece of it is that, I mean, I guess somebody could technically go for, I mean, who, I'm trying to think of Biggie because I was talking to, the way this all get started is that they were looking into who killed Biggie.

And they believe that that guy's dead. Pucci, I think is the guy's name. Pucci that is allegedly the guy that killed him. And I'm like, do you think anybody who ever be held accountable for that? Because it's, it's fine that we've pinned somebody with blame for the Tupac thing. But the thing is that to bring actual closure

to this whole thing is like, let's find everybody that was involved for like the deadliest beef. Well, is it the deadliest beef in hip-hop history? I mean, I guess it depends on what you think of some of that Chicago shit involved in King Vaughn and Little Dirt. But it's like the most infamous beef in history. And that one is probably never going to be adjudicated.

And so I'm like, I just, I kind of had gotten to the point. And I'd said at the end of that season of the podcast, that this will never be solved. And so the idea that Kee-Feed actually ended up having to go to prison and it's sort of jarring in that sort of retrospect. And it's really interesting that it did seem like it was never going to be solved. And we just figured the police was never going to try to get to the bottom of it. But that's where police becomes a broad term, right?

Right. Because it seemed like there were police officers who tried to get to the bottom of it. However, capital T, capital P, the police. That's quite interesting. Yeah, yeah. You know, so one of the stories I heard, and this is from a reporter, who in Las Vegas that was pretty connected with the police. She said one of the reasons that they thought that Vegas

did not want to solve that case is because they didn't want to have a murder trial with a bunch of rappers there in the middle of them trying to do a tourism booth. And I was like, I mean, yeah, I guess. I mean, keep it in mind that this is around the time that Las Vegas is pitching itself as family friendly Las Vegas. That's right. That's right. Yeah, late 90s. They really need it. And, you know, I think the idea that black folks went to Vegas

went to Vegas, at least to me, you tell me if I'm wrong, was sort of new. Like, I feel like Mike Tyson was one of those people that was like, that brought a lot of black celebrities to Vegas. It started becoming more of a thing, but am I wrong on that? I think that we have to remember and think of this in the context of the West Coast, which is where neither of us is from. Yep, right, right, right. But it's been a four-hour drive and a 35-minute flight for a long time.

for a lot of people. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I mean, let me think about it. By then, Shug Knight already has a club in Las Vegas. That's right. So I can't say it was but so new. That's right.

That's right. That's right. Well, it seemed like it was going to be the spot. And I mean, that's what Keefei D lived. Keefei D lived into the Las Vegas metro area. And for people that are not familiar with this area, like you said, it's a four-hour drive, not a very hard drive. But Newts and Desert, though.

But Nevada doesn't have state income tax, bro. So it's a much more affordable place to live. So a lot of people that you, used to live in California. California used to be a lot blacker than it was. The L.A. area used to be a lot of blacker than it was. A lot of them people moved to Nevada because it's cheaper over there. It's easy to live out there.

And history in Nevada, man, ain't no rules, really. Like Nevada. It's some outlaw shit, man. Like, that's just, they just made a decision that we go, it's going to be wild here. Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, I was reading when I did a story on a boxing ref, I mean, that kind of got drummed out the industry years ago. And I read a history of like how boxing ended up in Vegas.

And it's like, I mean, the people that had to bring it there and had to get a cut to make that work out, man, you know, like Vegas. If you were a gangster or, you know, you want to get into some shit, man, Vegas wasn't that hard. You know, would it, would DJ Quick say? He didn't say it about Vegas, but Vegas is just like come. You know what I'm saying? Like Vegas has got its parts. And so, yeah, I mean, you know, people move from L.A. get all over there and, you know, they could continue. their lives shockingly similarly

to the way they lived in L.A. Last thing I want to hit on is I look back on the thing with Tupac. And again, it's very interesting for us having been teenagers when this happened now that we're looking back at this very much as grown men. And I remember my sister said this at the time, which is interesting because she is the same age as

Tupac, but she was just like, he's so young. He was 25 years old when he died. Biggie was what, 24? 24. That's right. 24 years old when they died. Like to me, they seem like adults. You know what I mean?

Like, I didn't have, I mean, DuPont's 10 years older than me, right? Right. Not only did they seem like adults, it seemed like they had been famous for a long time. Yes. Right. Biggie Smalls is like Jimmy Hendricks

in the sense that he was famous for three years. Yeah, 94 to 96, yeah. Right, and that second album comes out in 97. Yeah. So, yeah. So I'm thinking, like, 1991, which is when Tupac comes out as a rapper, And I want to say juice comes out the next year.

Like, he films Juice in 91 and 92. I mean, that's not even five years of celebrity. Just think about how much life he crammed in those few years, bro. Like, the stories they tell about him, like Biggie tells the story about going to bring Tupac a gun at a hotel in New York and Madonna steps out of the bedroom. You know what I'm saying? It's like that's like Tupac was living that kind of shit.

He had that kind of life going on. He wasn't even that famous yet. Not even that famous yet. Not even that famous. But it was inevitable. And you tell me this. His charisma made him seem more famous than he actually was. He's truly one of them people that if he's in the room,

he takes over the room. Yeah, like he earned it. Yeah. Have you seen? I think we had it in one of our group chats. The clip of M.C., of Inspector Deck talking about how mad he would be, that like, he got to come out here, Abbotobically, psychology's philosophies, and high parts.

And all dirty bastard, they gotta do none of it. Right. None of it. Right. Recognize, I'm a fool and you love me. And then the whole house break down. Yeah. It's like, what are you talking about?

Like, that's Tupac. Tupac ain't even got to do nothing. Man, I mean, I think, yeah, man, look, I'm, I'm no longer going to say that, because there was a time when I was a little bit snooty about Tupac's rap, okay? But Tupac made people feel shit, man. And Tupac could wrap his ass off. He could rap. You go back and listen to that stuff now, he could rap.

Absolutely. And, I mean, there's something, I mean, every celebrity wants to inspire this sort of loyalty that Tupac. I'll never forget, at TCU, my freshman year, a dude got a tattoo of the cross on his back all the way across. And I mean, I assumed that was because of Tupac. Because Tupac was the first person I'd ever seen with anything like that. And, you know what I'm saying? So it was just like he was that influential. He could make people do.

things they had never ever considered doing before, bro. And so I didn't, I don't think I understood that at the time. But, man, I mean, my wife don't care about rap. Tupac is her favorite artist, bro. You know what I'm saying? Like, she don't get a shit about rap, but her and her friends from Tamopias High School in Mill Valley, California, which is also where Tupac went to high school,

this final year, high school, by the way. But it's one of them, it's like, it appeals to her. It appeals to dudes that in the hood. It appears to my homeboy who I play football with. who had to cross on his back. Like, he really spoke to a lot of different people, and that's just, I mean, everybody wishes they could do that. If you're in the content game,

if you're trying to reach an audience, you wish you could inspire the sort of loyalty in people that Tupac did. Yeah, I couldn't relate to the anger. My life was just a little bit too good, right? I think I'm being perfectly honest, but the people that can relate to the turmoil, the people that can relate to that,

to that set of emotions that he was so able to channel, it's different to them, man. You know, Bo, because this is the funny thing you're saying about that because I don't even think people know the half of how hard Tupac's upbringing was. Like, it wasn't like hood upbringing. It was like, yo, his mother was on crack. He had nowhere to sleep.

Yeah, and like the embers of the revolution, which is a whole other set of thing. Yeah, they destroyed the Black Panther Party. And, you know, many people have broken at the end of this. And, you know, Afini had to get out of prison and everything. And Tupac was had. in prison. Like he was birth in prison, right?

And so he went through a life of like deprivation. It had nothing to do with violence. It was just a life of deprivation and unwantedness and searching for belonging that so many people, he didn't even really get a chance of touching that in his music. Like he, you know, he hinted at it, but he never even really got a chance to talk about in his music because that's how young he was. And now it's done. right? Like as a story that we really talk about,

I think there's there's almost like as an immediate sort of way that there's a big bow tied on it by having a level of conviction. And I'm thinking about it like as we talk about it, we've been here for other artists to emerge, right? Like we've seen a whole 30 years of guys come around. Like it's not even nostalgia talking. You could argue maybe there certainly

have been biggest stars than Tupac was. And I would argue also some of them couldn't have been the stars they were without Tupac in the first place. Like 50 Cent don't hit the same if you don't have Tupac like warming people up to the whole idea of that mythos and legend. But they're getting shot as cool. Yeah. But yeah, but they're, and we're surviving it, right?

Like there's something to that. Yeah, uh-huh. But there's never been any, there's not been anybody since him nearly as captivating. Like in that same time, Kurt Cobain dies in 94 or 95. I want to say 95. Yeah. and you go back and like watch those clips, I'm like, oh, okay, I see what's going on here, right?

It is, it is captivating to a different group of people, but I'm like, oh, okay, right? I can kind of see what's going on here. Yeah. Tupac was captivating in a way, like, I don't think anybody needs to understand it. Oh, yeah. There was just a completely different energy

that surrounded him. Bro, like every, Tupac smashed every interview, man. Like the clips of him, like on MTV, talking to Tablet, with the soren or whoever else, like he kills it. Like he's just so entertaining, man. And I, so, man, like you will watch videos. So there's an old famous movie actor named Heather Hunter, okay, who is in a video.

Say, give that description again. Yeah, an old famous movie actor. Ding. Yeah. Film. She did films. And she was in the How Do You Want It video with Tupac, okay? And apparently that video set is legendary.

Like, Jodice is there, and they were known for being crazy on the video set. Tupac had Heather Hunter and some of her other friends from the movie industry. Who also had perhaps first and last names with the same letter. Exactly. Yes. Alliteration is very important in that particular field. It could be. And they interviewed Heather Hunter about this, and she started crying while she was talking about Tupac. Like, it's not like they had.

some, you know, 10-year friendship or anything like that. But she started crying. And they've interviewed Rosie Perez about him taking her out once. And Jasmine Guy. Tupac got shot and went to Whitley Gilbert's house. Went to Whitley. He recovered there. That's where he recovered in Whitley Gilbert's house.

Jasmine Guy wrote Afini Shakur's, helped co-write Afini Shakur's memoir. Oh, wow. Yeah. So it's like, again, Tupac didn't know these people that long. Like, he didn't even... I did an episode of a different world. I did an episode of a different world, bro.

And you were on my movie set, or my video set. And all these people have like this... They felt like they'd been touched, man. They felt like they were bringing the presence of somebody that was really important. And who else does that? Like, Drake don't do that, right?

Who else... Who's come close? Would it have to be Drake? Well, the thing is, though, I would say, No, but the thing I think that makes that interest in that comparison, Tupac was so organic. Yeah. Drake is very much so manufactured and, like, tweaked for,

it's the most deaf thing. So many skews. So many skews. Right. Well, it's funny you say that because if you look back at some of the videos of Tupac from when he's 17 years old, 18 years old, now he's got the Panther spirit. Like, you know what I'm saying?

like he's got he's on his pro black shit but also you could argue that Tupac was a little effeminate at times right at that at that age and that when he lands the movie juice anybody that was on that set and around him in their time a lot of people think that he just

could not let go of the role he played in that movie which was Bishop who's dude who wows out and starts killing all his friends right and he never recovered from that and so if if you believe that if some people do is that really true to who he was. I don't know. But he was a great actor.

Yeah. He was a great actor. But this is, I guess what I mean by organic in this sense. Okay. He did not create a persona for the purpose of selling records. Okay. That's right. Right. Like, even if it is, hey, I went and played this role and then I became this role, that is an organic development. That's right. Within the life and progression of the person that we're talking about. Right? Like, this was

and this is the interesting thing also like we're talking about white people getting out here selling his rap that's fine but the images were absolutely created by the people themselves that were involved in it and so with him it's very difficult to find a big time rapper

after him that wasn't very explicitly commodified he existed as a commodity right it's funny because it's not like white people had a real chance to like make a lot of money off him either at that time. Like, I mean, Tupac's family

is not rich, man. Like, I mean, his estate was worth a lot and they've gotten some money out of that. But it ain't like when... This always makes me sad because I lived in the Bay when this happened. When Afini Shakur passed away several years ago,

it was on a houseboat and Sausalito. And for a lot of people, you hear a houseboat and you think, oh, lay dog, Sausalito, that shit must have been beautiful. Nah, bro, there's another part of the houseboat. built area in Sausalito, where that's just sometimes when people had to live because it's

cheaper than living on land. And that's the part where Feeney Shakur was, bro. And so again, you just, he didn't even get a chance to get wealthy. He didn't even get to like lift his family to another layer of generational wealth. So you're right. I mean, he, when you're talking about him being an organic person, he was very young. So he does something. He gets into it like the rest of us, right? And that's it. We wouldn't say that we were fake because we did something and got into it. And If that's what Tupac's story was, he did the bishop thing, he did that, he got around Shug and all of a sudden he wanted to be, you know, be cool with the Bloods. I mean, those are things that actually happened in his life.

And he may have made the wrong decision by trying to inhabit that lifestyle, certainly the blood's part. But it doesn't mean that it meant that he was so empathetic and he wanted to feel things, man. He wanted to be a part of things. And people definitely wanted to have him around. His is a memoir that I would have read. and I don't typically want to read

nothing about Charles' lives. I, that one would have been to call it. It would have also probably had some amazing fables in here and there. His bodyguard wrote a book about Tupac and I'm

the names of the people that he allegedly had sex with. Crazy. Like people that are walking around today that are, you know, whatever. Like crazy. Crazy. So, Tupac was out there, bro.

Like, he really was getting it in. And, I mean, man, you know, I mean, everybody loved Tupac, Doug. Everybody had Tupac. And he wasn't even that tall. Joel Anderson, check him out at the Ranger, Rangert Tailgate, Press Box. You know what I'm saying? Go ahead and do you a little whatever. Oh, you know, what's up.

Yeah, raise the roof. Mm-hmm. That's what's up, Doc. People know it. Hey, I think somebody told me Dante Moore raised the roof after a touchdown this past week. Don't, don't, don't, don't tell me your claiming credit for that. Was raised the roof in the current mainstream? Had anybody been talking about it before me?

Things start, though, okay? Like, again, and I said this at the time, you believe that things come from on high, a top-down society, a celebrity. I believe things happen organically from people at the ground level, and you can have a lot of real influence. And that's why I really think I'm not, I really do think Luke Campbell and razor roof is awesome shit. Basically, like, my razor roof ended up there. You know what I'm saying?

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