The Right Time with Bomani Jones - Shannon Penn breaks down Kobe Bryant, Caitlin Clark & Coach K: The Rise of Stan Culture in Sports | 7.30

Episode Date: July 30, 2025

Bomani Jones is joined by his former producer, Shannon Penn of ESPN radio. They break down how stan culture has risen over the last 25 years and how it has impacted college basketball, the NBA & the WNBA, Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the right time, a wave original. My name is Beaumani Jones. Thanks for listening wherever you get your podcast. Thanks for watching us on YouTube. Subscribe, like, rate us, review us, give us five stars. You only give us four stars. I'm inclined to believe you are a hater. It is that time of week where we have a guest join us,

helping us to supplement our list of the top 25 athletes of the last 25 years in the year 2025. Check out our previous episodes. We are all the way through from 25 to 11, the top 10. is what's coming up next. But for right now, to help me talk about this, got my man, check him out on ESPN Radio with Freddie and Harry. Shannon Penn.

What's going on, sir? Bo, what's good, man. Hey, man. I love what you shoot, by the way. You got the curve situation behind you. Like that. A little bay window. That's what I'm saying.

I don't even know the name of it. Shannon's like, like, no, no, let me show you how we do this over here. No, I wanted to say, too, before we get started. Wanted to say thank you to you because last week just celebrated 10 years at ESPN. So wouldn't have been able to do that

and accomplish that feat without you. And we joke all the time about the grind and what the grind is. But you help me understand what the grind is. So before we get into the top 25 athletes the last 25 years, I want to say thank you and start off this podcast by saying that. Dude, I appreciate that.

And it actually makes me a little emotional. because I talk about this all the time, and I don't think, I don't think the people, I think a lot of people are new. I have to remember that, right? Like, we've been doing this for a while and we get people who show up who, I forget, don't necessarily know the context. I'm not doing any of this. Like Shannon, talking about 10 years at ESPN, I'm literally not doing any of this except for one day. I was coming in. I was doing fill in radio and Riley in the year 2007. And it was cool, but I didn't necessarily think it was going nowhere. And I'm coming in on the Sunday morning and this dude sitting there behind the board. I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't,

know who this is. And Shannon got a little bit of New York in him. So he just kind of like, yeah, good to see you. Unimpressed ass. This sort of stuff. And I don't remember it was the first show. It must have been the second show. But the second show we did. See, we need to do radio on Sunday morning. Nobody, like, your bosses aren't listening. Nobody cares. You're there by yourself. And we play two straight verses of I'm bad, straight through. And just let it rock. And just let rock. Jumped up and down to the studio, out of breath and everything. And I was like, you know, I think I could do this. And so then when they brought me on, not even full time.

Adam Gold brought me on to do Saturdays and he was like, and I'm going to have you with Shannon. Shannon had been working Sundays at that point, but he was like, no, you guys seemed to have a chemistry and he wouldn't even be a racist and we're going to put this together. And that was when I realized what was possible.

Like, you think about all the stuff we used to come up with, but we're like, yo, I got this idea, let's put this on the road. Let's do it. Let's do it. Let's do that. And then I get to satellite and I was able to like, when we used like those documentaries and stuff, Shannon will produce those, right? I sent a little money that way. We put these things together.

And then when I got on at ESPN Radio, I wanted a two-year deal. They'd only give me a one-year deal. And I said, well, if you only go give me a one-year deal, you got to give me my guy. And they said, okay. I was like, hey, Shannon, let me rush up by you right fast. Here we are. Yeah, here we are. So with that being said, once again, thank you.

And looking forward to what, you know, everything I'm doing now, what you're doing, and looking forward to getting into this today. Also, big win for the kids, boy, they got to go to Disney a lot, you know what I'm saying? To the point, they got to a point when we living in Florida. We were like, we gotta go to Disney again. Yeah, we got to go to Disney again. You see these prices? Yeah, we're getting into Disney for free.

Yeah, we're going again. You're going to ride that Dumbow. Space Mountain ain't just for Rick Flair. You're going to ride that too. Hey, man, it was a big loss to my friends with kids when I left, boy. Like, like the cats hit me up. You got them extra tickets, right? Yeah, cool. I got you on the venture tickets.

But you're a single man with no kids and you work at ESPN. You're Disney man. You might as well, you know, they fire you for it, but you might as well stand outside selling them things. Right, right. Especially the prices that they are now. Shee. Yeah, dog. But Shannon and I wanted to talk about something that has been, it's a phenomenon of the last 25 years, though I would argue more closely.

It's a phenomenon of the last 15 that comes around with the ad bit of Twitter. and the spread of it, but it is the rise of Stan culture in sports, right? And as I was thinking about, you know, discussing this, and I'll get to be able to our multiple points of entry that the two of us have together as a pair. But it dawned on me when I was thinking about this, that the true origins of Stan culture is not with players, right? Like, they've always been larger than life figures in sports, whether you're talking about Babe Ruth, right?

Joe DiMaggio, Mickey Mantle, Michael Jordan, like going up and down the line. There was a super level of fandom that didn't necessarily feel insane, right? It did not feel like you were pledging fealty for your lifetime to these people, right? So as much as it seems like that with Jordan, the way that people talk defensively

about Jordan has become a reaction, I think, to the new... Jordan has been immersed into the new culture of staying. Right. But like you could, you could be a big fan of Michael Jackson. And if somebody wasn't as big a fan of Michael Jackson as you, you ain't had to call them a name, right? Like there was the Michael Jackson fans or the Prince fans, but it wasn't like the beated video when they showed up in the same spot, right? Like, wouldn't everybody eyeing each other down or Beatles and Stones, for example? It wasn't that same way. But the place where I realized that Stan culture has existed the most in sports, college coaches. That feels like the outright beginning of what it is to be a stand. The idea that you defend no matter what, right, that you ride with them till the end and against any oppositional force. Think about folks in Indiana with Bobby Knight, for example. Those are stands.

No, that's a great one too. And it's like with college coaches, they have so much power. And a lot of times these colleges are in small towns. So they are the biggest, these coaches, well, it's football, basketball. they are the biggest and most important, most prominent figures on these campuses year in and year out. Whereas, you know, with the students, the athletes, they're cycling in every year. And back then it was every three, four years.

Now essentially it's every year. But they were the most prominent forces year and year out. And we didn't have the change in head coaching like we do now. So you would have a 10-year coach be there 10 plus, 15 plus, some cases 20-plus years where we don't see that today. It was like high school where he just comes. Coach, coach been here, coach been here forever. You know what I'm saying? Like, you know, it is interesting because like that role of coaching, to this day,

at least the ones that are still alive, I still call my coach's coach. You know what I mean? Like that's just, that's what it is. House coach. Do you refer to someone that you didn't play for as coach? Yeah, I guess it depends. Like the history teacher that was also a coach, right? I think I may refer to them as such, but it don't feel.

Right, right. It's funny because we have, we have, Herm Edwards in studio during the football season every Monday, right? And he's fine with us call him Herm. I call him coach. I never played a down in my life in the NFL, but I still don't call him coach. I text him, hey, coach, you still good for today? Absolutely.

Honestly, it's that sign of respect as well when you have some figures. Yeah, it feels like you're supposed to. It's like we use coach like your honor, admiral, right? Like we are using these, we use it with a, in spite of all the coaches we know that we are fully aware or unworthy of such respect. Absolutely. We still go do it. Like, in fact, that's what's interested in the NFL.

They talk about this. Like in college, you call your coach coach. In the NFL, you call your coach Bob or whatever it is. I'm like, I think you call some of them that. I bet what nobody call a Dahlia shula Don. Yo, Don, yo, Donne. Yo, don't let me out at you real quick, bro. Yo, D.

Yo, D. Like, I bet you nobody was doing that. But you and I can. came up around one of the more interesting coach stand situations, which is Meisha Sheffsky. Yep. And we came up in that as young black people and it was Duke. We wouldn't. We didn't believe.

No. And you got to give context. This is pre-one and done, for the exception of a Corey McGettit, this is pre-one-and-done John Wall recruitment at Duke. Like that was something different. That was something different where the caliber of Duke player and Duke recruits. It's totally different than it is now. Right, and Luw Aldang.

Lou All Dang was the other what had done that they had. But no, you're right. Like, prior to that, this was pre-How We Hoop, if you know, you know, right? Like, this is before how we hoop came up. And Shishovsky, Shishovsky to me was like the first truly polarizing coach in that way. Like, even Knight, who was absolutely boorish and everything else. Like if you did not like Bob Knight, there were real clear things for you to point to to say why you didn't. Chashefsky, man, I just don't rock with him.

I don't just like, I just don't get down with what they do. But it was also with Dean Smith as the counterpoint who certainly had a culture personality around him. It just so happens that the culture of personality there was largely rooted in very important and noble things, right? Like I low key integrated a state. Right. Right. I integrated an entire conference for basketball and sports, right? You end up with that sort of guy.

But I think I can speak to the explanation as to why it is that we wind up with the stand culture around coaching in college. It is because the colleges represent identity for people in large part, right? So I've talked about this many times that I read Barry Switzer's autobiology. called Bootlegg's Boy, which is a really interesting read, if not the most totally sincere book that I have ever read. But it's very Switzerland. Like, you know, the game is the game. But there was a chapter where he allowed the president of the university to jump in. And the president of university made the point that after the grapes of wrath, the self-esteem of Oklahomans was so low and like the idea of an okey, like that being a legitimate slur that

the state determined that they needed something that the people could be proud of, something to make them feel proud of being from Oklahoma. And they decided that that thing would be OU football. And so, like, why is Oklahoma good when they don't have any real built-in comparative advantage? Want to. And the want to comes back to the idea that the football team was there to serve a purpose for the identity of the people. If you read Buzz Bishinger's Friday Night Lights,

the whole point about Odessa Permian High School is how we tied into the identities of those people, right? The coach then becomes a reflection of that identity and placing a portion of your identity onto something to me is the first ingredient in standing, right? Like the basis of becoming a stand is your identity rests on the thing for which you stand. And so when you look at the ones, the coaches that we talk about that really had people bear Bryant, a great example.

Alabama's like, hey, hey, hey, hey, we're not just a bunch of races down here. We're good at football too. We can do both. Right. But my favorite thing about Alabama, though, was when they came down to the racism or the football, they voted for the football. Right. Right. Like once it was like, okay, guys, we're not doing this anymore.

They're like, all right. Well, if we're going to do it, I guess we're just going to. going to have to do it. And they did it. Yeah, we can't just let Grandma take all the good players. Right. What's the state of affairs changed? They were like, oh, okay, then we're going to get, like,

we ain't going to get that many more than we have to. But, wow, I wish I could say how I want to say it, but we're not going to be outblanked, right? Right. Like, we're not going to take them all. Like, Texas decided, yeah, y'all can. out black us. It's okay. Like we're just, we'd rather be this

than be really good at football. Alabama was like, no, sir, because their identity is way too tied up in being good at football. Right, right. And I wondered to, too, when you said the first ingredient of first step with standem is identifying

with said, you know, coach team or what have you. How does that differ from the general fan when that first starts? When you're just a fan of a program, a team, compared to being a stand and that being a reflection of yourself. What's the difference there? That is very interesting.

So this is my thought because obviously people, teams, some teams have done this more strongly than others where they have created, it's a thin line between an identity and a brand, right? And so they have, so the Yankees. I don't know if I would say the Yankees created an identity that the people latch on to are just a really strong brand because I don't think Yankees fans look at the,

Yankees and necessarily see themselves. Like you can say the Yankees represent New York or whatever it is, but like the pristine uniforms, they changed the facial hair code, whatever, the dress code, everything. Like it was a very, a very clean brand that they put forth that certainly they have fans who represent that, but that ain't them boys in Washington Heights, right? That ain't the boys up there in the Bronx who love the Yankees just as much as the dudes working finance would love the Yankees, for example. Like I would say that that falls in line more with a brand,

but many teams have identities and that is what their fans then lean into. Great example of a team where you could call it a brand, but I think it's probably more an identity. The Raiders historically, right, have been. Like, they were so great for the NFL and why the NFL needs them to get good again. And maybe, I don't know if you could ever do it the same again, but they were the back, they were the rassling heels. Right.

They out here cheating. You can tell them cats, Lester Hayes got all that grease on, you know, they're going to be out here doing all that, doing wild stuff, although I guess Christian Wilkins went too far. Is that what they?

Yeah. That was a, A, A, A. Somebody needs to tell us exactly what happened here. Because otherwise, all we're left to do is imagine based on a few things that we don't see that boy do. And under that case,

it could be in it. Shannon has run away from the microphone. Nah. You can have that. You can have that, though. Nah, that ain't, that ain't exactly how we, that ain't how we doing. Alabama drill ain't supposed to work that way, Chris. Come on back, dog.

But this is my question. All that, though, is how wild was whatever he did? How wild was it? Because he's good, right? Like, I know he was hurting everything, but he's still a good player. Absolutely. how it is for then to be like, oh, no, my brother. Not only do you have to go, we're not going to give you your money.

Right, right. What did you do? Right. And that's the thing. We don't want to speculate because we don't know the details, but from some of the stuff that's being rumored about, a line was crossed somewhere. That is correct.

It just wasn't this playful things that happened in the locker room of boys being boys. A line was crossed. Until we find out specifically how far, how far he crossed that line will wait, but it had to be something agreed. Something happened. But generally speaking about the Raiders, right?

Like, Kitty Stabler was the Raiders, right? Like, you could imagine the Raiders having dudes that actually wore eye patches. Right. And then when you look at who their fans are, it's people who relate to that persona. Right. More than the football. And it was like that outcast. It's like, like these other teams have these identities.

The Steelers have the Steelers, the Packers, the Cowboys. But for Raider fans, it's us. It's, it's, it, we're, we're, we're, we're coming together and that's going to be our identity. It's coming together in that, in that regard. Right. So I think it gets us to a place where I think we could like sum this up most nicely in the idea that there are some teams that you rock with because you like who they are. And some because you feel like that is who you are. You know what I mean? Like you feel like, oh, this team.

So we talked about this when I did the piece for. game theory about Duke basketball, all those black teams, right? The black college basketball teams at times where a basketball was not black in that way in college sports as of that point. The UNLVs, the Arkansas's, Georgetown, Georgetown, right? The most ironic identity play in the history of sports. Georgetown. That was, that was us.

And Georgetown is funny you bring that up because for a lot of people, because Georgetown was good. whole life. So I thought Georgetown was an HBCU. I'm seeing this, I'm seeing this big coach. I'm seeing this team with Kentee cloth on the sides. I'm thinking it's an HBCU because that was their identity. So that was the biggest shock for me when I got older. I was like, wait a minute, this is not HBCU? What's so funny is so many, like Florida State had the Kentee Klaus jerseys.

Texas A&M had the Kentee cloth jerseys, but the only one we remember is Georgetown because it fit, right? So we get to a basis where. I think when we start talking about the evolution into the culture of the Stan, what we're getting to is we started with people loved players for who the players were. And it was kind of sort of just, I am a fan of this player because this player is excellent. It could fluctuate a little bit here and there based on stuff that people did or how, you know, their level of play or whatever. But overwhelmingly, in the 20th century, you had your guys.

and you loved your guys and you may have adored them and you may have been really, really into them, but you didn't really put so much of yourself into it. What I think happened, and I'm curious what you think about this, what I think happened in part is the way that we relate to celebrity changed and the way that we relate to sports change. And we began to look at it less and relate less to the group. then more so to the person, right, to the individual rather than the larger group, with the exception, again, being NFL football, where people are still like, you know, you're going to the team. The NBA has sold players, for example, so people then go in and they relate to the player, then take that individual and the way, and the fact that we're talking about individuals and look at the changing ways in which we as consumers relate to individual anythings and the ways that we then communicate about these things, i.e. on social media, which then makes us more and more tribal

in the ways that we go back and forth. And now everybody that you love is part of you. It's not just that I like this athlete. What does liking this athlete say about me? When you say something about this athlete, you are now saying something about me. And here we are, knee deep and stay in land. Exactly. That's the perfect description because it went from these teams being, I mean, identifying with these teams and liking these teams because they were good or lacking these players to now what this player does or how this player plays or what this player says or where becomes a reflection of me. So then you have that plus the addition of social media. So then it's like I have to go in here and defend this player because in essence I'm defending myself and my beliefs and why I think the mid-range jump shot is not dead. because Shay Gilder's is able to do it. Or, hey, this player doesn't have to be the face of the NBA if he doesn't want to because he cares more about his horses and winning races.

Like, it becomes absolutely a reflection of yourself. And now you're up here arguing really against every and anyone because you're on social media, Twitter, X, whatever you want to call it, because you have to defend why it is that I like how this player gets down on and off the court or field. And then we added another interesting dilemma where you, somebody's daddy, I wonder what she think about this. I spent a lot of time around my parents and their friends because I was a quasi-only child, right? So your parents go somewhere, you go, you hang out, you know, their kids, you know, my parents are older. So the people we're going

to hang out with, they ain't really got kids, my age. So I'm not like, we're not running off in the backyard and playing. I'm just there around them. And what that made, where that made me very different than my peers and became very helpful was that I had an exposure to conversation with adults that you typically didn't have. And, but they weren't really talking to me like I was an adult, right? Like we weren't having like level conversations, right? It was still a hierarchical conversation. I say that to say the social media has created something that used to never happen before, which is grown folks being part of kids conversations and kids being part of grown folks conversations. And for purposes of this discussion, I'm saying kids is being people

like in their early mid-20s or whatever it is. But also kids being involved in conversations with adults, but they are not required to show no goddamn respect, right? And so it's no longer, hey, I'm talking to my dad and he's talking about, calling Elgin Baylor, right? Like my dad's Connie Hawkins. That was his dude that nobody saw, but he could go on and on about. And so when my dad is telling me how good Connie Hawkins is, I'm like, wow, what do you know?

Now if somebody comes up telling you how good Connie Hawkins is, somebody got to get up and tell you how he ain't yonis, right? y'all ain't supposed to be talking to each other like that so then it creates an emboldened sort of situation where any like i think michael george is the greatest basketball player of all time but you know me you've known me for nearly 20 years you can tell people this i'm not some giant michael jordan fan right right in fact you and i were big big big lebron guys like turn of the decade and stuff like that right but the idea is if i think that michael jordan is the best player of all the time that means I must be a Michael Jordan stand because all they can rely all they've known is stand world so they can't if you think LeBron is the greatest player it's like you're required to then be a like I think that's the most interesting part is that if you think if someone is your favorite player you're required to say they're great like we used to have guys like Raj Strickland you love Raj Strickland but Ross Strickland and that didn't mean that didn't mean Ross Strickland was Magic Johnson right

or if you think the guy's great it has to be because you're a fan like there can't any separation of the two. And I think you and Merrill had a great conversation last week, a couple weeks ago with the term mid, right? Yes. How mid used to be perfectly acceptable. It's like, yeah, really good, not great, sometimes great, but it's okay.

It didn't have to be the best, didn't have to be the worst. Whereas now, whenever you have any conversation, any argument, any discussion about a team, a player, what have you, it has to be either he's the best and I love him and I'm a super fan or he's the worst and he's not this. You can't have those LeBron conversations and admit how great Jordan was or admit or say how great LeBron is. It has to be choose your side. It has to be all or nothing.

Like there's no middle ground when it comes to these conversations. A lot of that has to do obviously with social media and in part, like you mentioned, some of the Stan culture. Yep. So choose your fighter. Now when we come back, we will talk about the player mired more in Stan World. that mired and Stan world and be set on all, be seached on all sides by stands. Tell you who that is coming up next.

All right, back with Shannon Penn. We are talking about the rise of Stan culture in the course of the last 25 years. And so, all right, LaBron, Shannon, I think we could be honest about where we were. I think we've grown. I think we've evolved. But, you know, we used to be Kobe haters.

We can admit that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We didn't admit that. Yeah, we used to be Kobe haters. And by the way, don't blame me, blame Kobe. Rest in peace. Like, he made it tough. He made it, if you were to Lakers fan,

he, and even if you were, he didn't make it that easy in the early portion of it. Full context for me on why I used to say in jest about the whole Kobe Hater thing. Because for me, it was comparing two players at that time. when Kobe's coming up, and I actually wrote a paper about this, my freshman in college. It was about Kobe and Iverson and comparing and contrasting the two.

And me having grown up in Hampton, so very much, the Iverson stand, if you want to call it that, and comparing how he got down when he came into the league to how Kobe early on got down before he got older and kind of changed some of those things. But to your point, Kobe early on didn't make it hard for us to be fans. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, he ain't really know how to talk to people. That part. Like, if you read Jeff Pearlman's book of Three Ring Circus about the Three Pete Lakers,

it is an interesting window into like where Kobe was and how he got and everything else. As things changed, he grew. And I think my ability to understand, I think the other part I talked about this when Kobe died was Kobe's one year ahead of me in school. Like that was the first time that there had been an athlete to pay attention to that was actually my age. But athletes always seem so much old. So I was like holding him to the standard of an adult without recognizing that he was in fact a child because I don't think I actually recognize myself that I was a child, you know, and you know, and all the things that they came with it.

But what I realized after Kobe passed and where I say that he is like, be set on all sides by stands and why he becomes such an interesting person in the stamp culture. As you said, he was on the other side of Allen Iverson. They came into the NBA at the same time. and were exact opposite people. The league certainly would have preferred that Kobe Bryant be the face of the NBA. The face of the NBA that they got was Alan Iverson. That's why every time somebody gets in these, who's the face of the NBA,

you don't get to decide who it's going to be, right? For better, and it's not always positive. It's not always to sell, but for better or worse, when you thought about the NBA, you thought about that little motherfucker right there. Iverson, and it was a lot of people didn't like about the NBA,

and then what a lot of us loved about the NBA. But he was that guy. Kobe's on the wrong side of that. Kobe was on the wrong side of Shaq. Shaq was on his own team. Kobe, because he was doing such a Michael Jordan impression, he was like Aaron Hall or R. Kelly to Charlie Wilson, right? Like he was, you know, like, what if Charlie Wilson was Michael Jackson?

And then Aaron Hall was like, he's like, shy, right? He was one of these many guys, but he was so good. at it that you was like, yo, it kind of looks like it. It's kind of the same thing. But then if you're a real Jordan person, you're like, no, I ain't here for that, right? So he's on the other side of that one. Then LeBron comes around and he ends up being on the other side of that. And then as LeBron became the man that's on the other side of Jordan, the Jordan

stands then embraced Kobe as he became the true caretaker of the legacy. and now they become the LeBron haters. But for NBA stand culture, right. Point, like, patient zero is not really Michael Jordan. Because the way that we talked about Jordan at the time, Jordan was, the other thing was Jordan was so big

that there was no opposing force. Right. Right. Like, it wasn't like, I hate Magic Johnson because I love Michael Jordan. I hate Charles Barkley because of that. There was no guy that became the other guy. If you hated Carl Malone, it was just because it was the right. thing to do. Shout out Wemby.

Yeah, that's what I'm saying, hey man. Yo, Wemby a Shaolin monk. Wimby out here trying to get Carl Belone out to paint. Wemby be talking crazy to Rudy Gobert. Yo, man, like, I'm, I may stand for that young man. Right. And I think it's interesting when you bring up LeBron in this, the factor when we talk about Kobe as well, because LeBron early on embraced kind of the media side of of this, let people into his world, you know, his style of play, more passing, wanting to get more

people involved, whereas that wasn't Kobe's, that wasn't his thing and really didn't become his thing, really for the majority of his, his, his, his, his time in NBA until he became an older statesman, really that, oh, eight Olympic running kind of changed that, that perception of him. But so, so, like, you make a great point. It's like, so when LeBron's coming up, then you look, for me at that time, I'm looking at it like, well, why couldn't Kobe have done this as well? I think this. I think there's several factors, one of which I think I think LeBron coming up with social media

and having that, and Kobe was a big star as well, but it wasn't to the level that LeBron was when he was in high school. So LeBron kind of had more of that media training already coming up to say, hey, this is how I'm going to get down. So it was fair or unfair, me at the time, comparing, hey, if LeBron is able to do this, why didn't Kobe at that time growing up? So then it becomes sort of the resentment of,

I know this is your personality, but you could have easily led us into this world, but that's not after you got down. And I think another thing that happened with Kobe is, if you were a Kobe, Kobe Stan, you had cause to become ultimately emboldened or entrenched by something that I think made Kobe's career more interesting than any other player I can think of. And this isn't how basketball works.

There ain't a lot of people. people that have up, down, up again. And that did happen, right? Like, those three years after Shaq left, you could talk about that 35 point in game season, all you want, or whatever, but it would, come on, man. It was, it was, it was not, it was, over there, over there in Kobe world. It was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was not what was cracking. It was not a win. And so if you were a a Kobe fan, y'all went through something. And that's before we start talking about what happened in Colorado, right? Right. Right. Kobe's, if you are a Kobe fan, forget about Stan.

You went through it with him. Like, that's a reason why Lakers fans feel different about him than they do any of those other guys. Like, I look at my friends, the friends I'm closest with are the ones that I went through something with, right? Where we had to push through whatever it is. And for Lakers fans, because they used to go to the playoffs every year. They had that year they didn't make the playoffs. And they lost in the first round. That felt like they was in the desert.

They made it until they got back to the Oasis. And so he then becomes the man with the. The superstands. Right. The super stand. And the super stands were defensive because the time in which you had that Lakers declined, the end of the Kobe Shack time, obviously Colorado, the post shack time coincides with LeBron coming up.

So now it's like, oh, wait a minute. For Kobe fans, Kobe stands. It's like, hey, our guy is probably the best player in the league sends Tim Duncan. But now you want to get rid of him because you got now this new quote unquote face of league and LeBron coming in. So you had a valid case to be made for Kobe stands being very defensive at that time, say 2005 to 2008, 2009 with Kobe in the league. You know who else that sounds like?

Nas stands. Right? Like Nas came out with the heat. They went through some things with Nas, man. Nostradamus happened, brother. You know what I'm saying? It's not like Nause went all the way to the bottom. But when Jay hit Niz would take over,

Nas was wobbly. Like that was, and he got back up and he made it there. And Nause stands have always felt like he has been beset on all sides and not gotten enough credit. And then the JZ of all people pops up and somehow becomes the guy. When you had that happen, because we know the Niz stand is a particularly species, but the Nye stand and the Kobe stand ain't nobody dug in quite the same way.

like look, the Iverson stand is dug in. But it don't feel the way it does with the Kobe stay. Because they're not really trying to, the Iverson stand ain't really trying to talk to you about basketball. They just want to talk about love. Like Tupac, you can say somebody a better rapper than Tupac. I mean, yeah, it means something else. You know what I'm saying?

It's funny how you make that comparison, because I think there are parallels there between a Tupac and an Iverson legacy and how we discussed the two. I think that's a very accurate comparison. And I think, too, back to Nause, I think what hurt Niz is if Nause would have came out, say, four years earlier, his run of greatness would have been longer because he had 94 I'mmatic and then he had it was written in 96, but then that's what happens in the late 90s, the rise of the South, and then you had the bling, the money era where that, so we're not

trying to really listen for you, you know, talking to us and all these big words and these fast lyrics. It's like, nah, we just want to have fun and show me your 20-inch rims. So I think, so I think with, if you make the comparison with Nause and Kobe, kind of that, that bling era is kind of what LeBron was to Kobe's reign as the best player in NBA. Oh, I forgot. Kobe also had the, okay, I guess I got a fit in kind of thing. Remember when you got that butterfly tattoo? Oh, that's what that was? Yo, I didn't even see the butterfly too much later. It's a crowd. and it got a butterfly on time.

Right, right. I mean, that was, by the way, the Nas, it's so interesting that I would make a Nas Kobe comparison in that way, considering that song that Nas made that time. You remember that song? You remember that one?

Which one? Is this all Nostradamus as well? Because I'm going to tell you right now, I never listened to that. No, no, no. It is on Streets disciple. And I can say this because this is really what happened, okay?

We had got the street version. You know, Nas is good for a wild-ass provocative title. Right. And so he did this song where he chastised Kobe for snitching old shack in Colorado. Like it just had this verse just trashing Kobe. It was so incredibly personal. And on Street's Disciple, the title was, these are our heroes. On the original version going around, it was called, and I quote,

Coon Picnic. Wow. Wow. Can you imagine if somebody made a song about you called Coon Picnic? And by the way, I don't recall there being any picnic theme

in the song. I don't know where the picnic part came up. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Yes, I don't know if Diles want me to compare them to Combs.

No, he might not appreciate that. But so then you had, like I mentioned, you had for the Kobe Stans, you had the rise of LeBron, which was essentially like with Nause and the rise of Jay-Z there where it's like, hey, wait a minute, this dude is doing a lot of the same things I was overdoing. Why aren't you appreciating the things that I was doing? But he's doing it differently. So then it's a form of being defensive. So then it's like, okay, well now we got to go all the way the other way

and start knocking this guy because he's not. our guy. And why is everybody loving this guy when you should be loving our guy? Right. And I feel like LeBron and Stan World is in an interesting place because he is beset by now the Kobe Stan, right? Who got a who got a whole new life. And the whole new life of the Kobe Stan starts when he wins those next two championships, which is at the dawn of social media. And when LeBron is at his absolute bottom, 2010, like 2010 and 2011, right? That's where he is at his bottom. Kobe has affirmed himself, right? Kobe has made himself legendary in an unassailable way by getting the fourth and fifth

championships. Okay, he winds up there. LeBron then has runs of basketball better as good as anybody that we have ever seen. He also goes through something. And LeBron, to me, is the first NBA superstar on this level to truly not be associated with teams, right? And he moved around so much that you went with. LeBron to wherever he went.

So many of the Kobe stands, most of the Kobe stands are actual Lakers fans. LeBron stands are from everywhere. They, like, Al-Qaeda, they sleeper cells. You never know. You never know who might blow to build up. When a LeBron fan, like, yo, we in Omaha, I think we're safe. Are you sure? Are you positive?

Apparently, this is the LeBron stands in Dallas, but that's for a conversation for another day. Yes, yes, yes. Yes, they're everywhere. And so he has got built up. and then they're taking all Jordan stands, right? Because that becomes a thing because LeBron for the last nine years has been so insistent, not simply on believing that he is the best player in the NBA, but needing us to do it too, right?

And it's off-putting. It's all those things, right? But it is a reflection of the time. And there are so many accounts on Twitter, for example, that are in the business of either telling you LeBron is the greatest or telling you that he's not, like these shitpost accounts that are just fully wedged in because all social media is the divisiveness that sells. Right.

Figure out what the hot take is to throw out there. Right. Even if you ain't got a hot take, somebody going to make one and then throw it out there and then make a thing so that everybody can go at each other. And LeBron has been the centerpiece of a culture like that on television and online for like 15 years. Right. But here's the question I ask you. Post-Lebron.

does anybody really engender or become truly part of that same what I would call stand culture? So for example, Steph Curry absolutely is that level of superstar. And I would say Steph Curry has stands, right? But I find them often to be annoying and dorky. Yeah. But they're not, they're not like, it's not the same culture around standing for Steph that there is around standing for LeBron. I don't feel like. Right.

And a lot of the Steph stands too are for us, you know, below six foot, just being honest. So us who couldn't dunk, so he's known at the jump shooter. So that's like, oh, we can identify for us who our biggest achievement was clapping boards. So you got this dude I in who could shoot. It was like, wait a minute, I could do that. So a lot of that has to do with Steph as compared to some of these other guys. Yeah.

And the light skin green eye thing didn't hurt either. There's that. But I really stopped and thought about it, at least with the NBA. We are seeing or we learned after the trade that there is a world of Luca stands. And, boy, they are still mad, by the way, still mad. By the way, Luca did the thing that proves that Nico is right and is going to get Nico fired. Luca wasn't never going to be doing all this exercising and getting in shape as long as he was in Dallas. The only way it was going to happen is if you went somewhere else.

And now, Luke, have you seen that men's health? Man, look. Luca looked like a person we didn't know was possible. Everybody that was like, what you mean, Luca's lazy. This is exactly what that motherfucker was talking about. And Lucas defense, right? He was only as lazy as the Mavericks allowed him to be, though. Just think about it.

If you're Luca and I'm all NBA, what, five times? I get to the team to the Western Conference Finals. Then the following year, I get him to the NBA finals, playing this lazy, if you want to call it that, no defense and not really in great shape. But it's worked for me so far. So why should I have to change? I know.

and that's why the only way that they could shame him into it was that. That was the only way that it was going to work. Because otherwise, he's like, why should, look, man, it's kind of how when I flunked out of graduate school, I ain't never have to study before. What are you talking about? Now you're telling me I got to study all night. I don't even know how to do that. Are you kidding me?

This is, right? Like, it's like, it's just, why would I change? It's worked the whole way. And they basically had to flunk about it, flunk about Dallas. for him to understand. But my last thing, though, I do wonder, though, with, because obviously it's kind of the PR thing doing, I guess one thing, if you just get in the shape,

it's another thing you get in the shape, and then you have this piece of men's health as well. I do wonder how much of this is just PR because Luke was up for that big deal. And he's going to get his money, but I wonder how much of this is, hey, I'm leaving no doubt that I want all my money. So let me go ahead and do this in a big public way.

Hey, brother, we, I've said this before on this show. We've seen the career of Shaquille O'Neill, brother we know it's one year it's one year you remember where alber haynesworth's on the franchise tag two years in a row and he looked like reggie white right remember that hey man if he was about if lucca was really about this life he'd a bit about this light right but it hit me right hit me with this and he's right there is one person left out here who got them stands kailan clark oh yeah oh yeah oh yeah oh yeah and this and this level of standing is different. Like, we've never seen this in this league with an athlete like this. But I think

everyone as a whole, the public, we're trying to digest this in real time because we haven't seen this. Like, if it was a LeBron conversation post, you know, LeBron, Lakers, Luca, look, we know that. We can identify that. We can read that. That's the Mike Lineback. We can read that right away. This Caitlin Clark WNBA debate is something totally different that we're trying to, we're trying to understand this as we go. And you know what it gets us back to. Identity. Bingo.

It is a, look, she is an incredible watch, right? Like, she is a very good player, has not played very well this year, but she is an incredible watch. And because of the racial dynamics of the situation, the standum that exists that pushes for her then creates a standum. for somebody like Angel Reese, for example, because Caitlin Clark, they're not like us, they not like us, they not like us, right? Angel Reese gets held from the Caitlin Clark stands because she not like us, she not like us,

she not like us. Then you have a rush of people in large part who defend Angel Reese and have wrapped their arms around her because they've seen this movie before and they know that a young black person in that place needs a measure of love from all the people around her, and they that creates its own staying culture. And then on the identity front walks in, the most fascinating case we have ever seen, Paige Beckers,

who has this entire fan face that has come around because of her stepmom. Yeah, absolutely. She has provided a measure of identity and ability to relate as a white girl named page. Right. Now, granted, not your standard white girl name page. but still, as your white girl named Paige,

there is an identity level, not quite of stand them in her direction, but it is like anti-standing, like the anti-Kately Clark standing? I can tell you how many people I see who will be like, oh, no, Paige, she's the one that's who y'all think that other one is because they don't even be one to say Caitlin Clark,

name half the time. It is like that the world of Stan hit the WMBA. It's hard for, and I think this is what happened. I'm curious what you. thing. Because our attention is so divided and there's so many people, so many things to look at here, there, everywhere. It's hard to get a person who develops a really big stand base in the NBA right now because there's so many options all over the place, right? But the WMBA didn't have that many big stars. And so you had the emergence of Caitlin Clark. Boom. Stan World shows up there

and you have standing that comes as a result off of that. But I could be wrong. I don't know the Asia Wilson stands. do you? I think not really because I think it's just understood that we we understand how great Asia is. So it's not, you don't have, you don't need that level of stand-in with her because there's no one on the other side to say that she's not great because we've seen her do it at every level. And she's, and she's already got a spot in the Hall of Fame already if she stopped playing today. So we never got that other side when it comes to the Asia Wilson detractors because she's widely understood like, yo, she's the badest player in the league.

even though Nefisa probably winning MVP this year. So we got that. And I do think it's going to be interesting because I think we all know the Caitlin, Angel Reese, and how that's been playing out the last three years. But to your point, the Page dynamic, now when it comes up now, it's like, hey, for all you, Caitlin stands,

hey, Paige's out here doing a lot of similar things. She might not have the long three-pointers, but her game is just as cold. And in some cases, cold, the better passer, less turnovers. And Paige, and there's the thing. the thing. Page was supposed to be that one. Prior to the knee injuries, Paige was that one five years ago. Page and Caitlin came out, came out the same year. So did Andrew Reeves 2020. Like Paige has been,

Paige was going to be that one we've known for over five, six years now. So it's interesting moving forward how that page dynamic changes. And like you said, those Angel Reese stands are probably going to start wrapping the arms around that page, that Page Beckers now. Hey, and tell me this. When is standing going to create the the Clark Becker's true civil war amongst they people. You know what I'm saying? Like, at some point, the Caucasian Caitlin Clark stands, and I'm going to be honest, I ain't met a black Caitlin Clark fan,

let alone stand yet. Well, actually, no, every black Caitlin Clark fan I know was a man. Okay. I'm not here to explain. I'm just here to tell you, I'm just here to tell you what's going on, right? They're the rules. them to the rules. Yeah, yeah, yeah, hey, don't ask me, baby.

I'm just telling you what I'm just, I'm just, I'm selling to you just like I get it, right? That I have seen. But at some point, if Page Beckers really take off, then the Caitlin Clark stands, because, you know, you see who Paige be kicking it with, you know what I'm saying? You see her general get down. She out here, Jason Williams living halfway, you know what I'm saying? Right. Hey, man, then that stand world is going to turn into something else.

But that's the epicenter of our stay-in world at this point. And that's the thing for those Caitlin stands. Like, yeah, you could be a fan of her, but why aren't you a fan of Paige at the same level? You got a white girl from the Midwest, you know, great college career, player of the year, national championship, played at Yukon, very identifiable, very, see on social media, doing all the TikTok dances, her and AZFud, been doing them for years. My daughter's favorite player right now in Paige Becker's. So why not Paige?

Like what is it about, hey, just get down that you, that you don't, that, that you don't identify with? What, what is it to get down? And I think it has everything to do with, being honest, what a stepmother. Yeah. And how, and how she was raised. Well, there's that too, right? I mean, you just talked about her girlfriend.

I don't think that, I don't think, the idea that Kaila Clark is straight presenting is not, I don't, I don't think that's a small part in this, right? But, you know, Paige Beckers and Chad Holongren used to know each other, you know, up in Minnesota. I guarantee you somewhere it's a tape of them freestyling, right? Somebody, somebody got a video with them trying to rap, right? It's got to be there. My question with that rap, though, they're using Ninja. They're something to a ninja in these lyrics. That's not supposed to say. Oh, no, no, no, page is it? Page is it. Page the one that had to tell Chet, put Chet up all game and let him know that that was not going to be appropriate behavior in

that house. That's not how we get down, my brother. Yeah, check came in there and did that at that house and then you heard it on the door. Oh, hey, hey, miss Beckers. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let me talk to you, young man. She got me in there and start sounding like Claire Huston. Sit your lanky ass down and let me talk to you, boy. Let me tell you, let me tell you what this is. Man, I got to say, I think that this has been a fulfilling worthwhile conversation on stand culture in the last 25 years. We got them back almost a full century historically, brought it into modern times. We did that. I just want to say this public service announcement for you stands out there, right?

Hey, we get it. We're all fans. We love sports. But calm that stuff down. Like, you don't got to beat. You don't got to go that far. Like, hey, it's cool. It's cool to say you wasn't really feeling the Cowboy Carter album.

It's cool. It ain't the end of the world. Like, you can say that. I hope I can say it. Let me whisper it. It's cool to say that. It's cool to acknowledge that there are other great players or other great athletes in these leagues. Like, it's cool. It's nothing wrong with that.

That doesn't mean your person is not that great themselves. That just means there's more than one. It's cool. This ain't Highlander, baby. They can be more than one, all right? I'm going to point out in line with what you just said, I'm going to just say this real quick. 15 years ago, wasn't everybody at Beyonce's staying. It didn't.

It didn't have to be even 10 years ago. You didn't. It wasn't always like this, right? I'm seeing people that I know used to be actual real live Beyonce haters have completely switched up because there wasn't no room for that. The game is to be like how everybody was everybody became a Swifty. Right. You know, like it all, that all the Beyonce shift. Now part of it, I firmly believe is she put out a lot of heat.

That helps. but not it wouldn't it wasn't always like this like the it didn't it the the them crowds didn't always look like this no they did not but i tell you this boy i tried to you know that cowboy carter i'm not going to use the word but you know it's not her best record um nah they've been a whole lot of room to have that discussion in front of people and look and i'm not i know i'm not even though that high that's crazy like that's something different too that how is different. Like, see, that hive, that beehive, that super saying levels of stander.

Like, you got your regular standals and then you got those. I'm going to tell you right now, the most absurd stand base that I have ever dealt within my time, no question, Alia. I once simply made the point that I did not love Alia as much as other people. I don't even think I said overrated, though I may have, right? But this is maybe 15. It's not 15. I was living in Miami.

So this is like 12, 13 years ago. But it was just kind of like, you know, she's not my favorite. And I think with that because- Hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. I looked up. Somebody had posted pictures of my apartment and doxed my mother. Oh, my gosh. Like, it ain't that serious, folks.

Yo. It ain't never that serious. Yo. It ain't never that serious. Like, it's cool. You can have more than one. Like, it's cool. We can be critical and have our points.

That doesn't mean we hate the person or hate the craft. And even if we did hate the person, we ain't talking about you. Right. That's the thing, Stan. We're not talking about you. Like, come on. What a time. Shannon Penn, check him out.

Freddie is it Freddie and Harry or Harry and Freddie? Freddie and Harry because Alphabetical order. Freddie and Harry because having a Harry Freddie would be kind of weird on radio. Wow. That is a, you know what you put it in those terms. You got it. Freddie and Harry checked them out afternoons, ESPN Radio.

My brother, I appreciate you. Yes, sir, absolutely. All right. Now, ladies and gentlemen, thanks so much for joining us here on the right time. We do this three times a week. Remember, check out our series, the top 25 athletes of the last 25 years. Ryan Brumley handling everything behind the scenes. Thank you, sir.

Remember, follow the right time. Subscribe, like, rate us, review us, give us five stars. You only give us four stars. I'm inclined to believe you are a hater. We'll talk to you guys in a couple of days. Take it easy.