The Right Time with Bomani Jones - Shannon Penn on The Rise and Fall of the Cowboys' Dynasty: 30 Years Later | 02.03

Episode Date: February 3, 2026

Bomani Jones is joined by Shannon Penn, a former producer of The Right Time and currently at ESPN. They delve into the history and cultural significance of the Dallas Cowboys and their 1990s dynasty. They break down the cultural significance of Michael Irvin and Deion Sanders while pondering what is keeping the Cowboys from returning to their past success. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the right time, a wave original. My name is Beaumani Jones. Thanks for listening wherever you get your podcast. Thanks for watching us on YouTube. Subscribe, like, rate us, review us, give us five stars. You only give us four stars. I'm inclined to believe you are a hater. It is Time Machine Tuesday.

This week we are going to talk about 30 years ago, not exactly this week, but 30 years ago in this neighborhood of time. The Dallas Cowboys won the third Super Bowl in four years. Little did we know. Not only would they not win a Super Bowl since then. Not only would they not go to a Super Bowl after this. They ain't been to a conference championship game

since this happened. So, you know, who knew? We will look back on that and join me now. You can check him out on Freddie and Harry on ESPN radio and, you know, OG right time member, Shannon Penn. What's going on, brother? What's good, my man?

Hey, man, you know. It's another day in the life. I was actually thinking about this with the Cowboys kind of in the context of us, right? So for people who don't know, Shannon and I worked together in North Carolina on the radio. We were doing Saturday, Sunday morning shifts. You know what I'm saying?

My first show ever sports Saturday was with Shannon. We were talking up, I did a shout out to, what's his name, DeMa and Wilson on Monday. And I was like, we used to have a big dummy of the week on radio back in the day, which looking back was a little bit harsh. But you know what I mean? But it hit, though. It hit though.

We had the Baltimore house music. You big dummy. Yes, we had people wait. We had people waiting on it. You know what I'm saying? Like, like, we had those things. But we started doing that show in January of 2008. And that is the year that the Giants beat the Patriots, right?

And think about this, Shannon. That was 12 years after the Cowboys. had last won a championship, right? Neither of us grew up as Cowboys fans, right? My dad is like an old school, like old Black man Cowboys fan, right? Like, crying, you know, not crying because he don't do that, but over the ice bowl type of situation, right?

You, as we said, were a Giants fan. That was your bang. But the Cowboys in that run, I'm curious if you felt the way that I felt before they got good, which was they felt to me in some, ways like the Packers did. And this won't be the same for you because you were a Yankees fan,

but like the Yankees did to me where y'all say they used to be good, right? Like, like, like, like, like, like, it felt like forever ago they were good, except they had only been bad for like three years. But it was a formative three years for me, right? We watch it. Like the games on every week. They go one in 15. I was like, what are we talking about here?

Right. And that was the thing for me, like, the rise of the Cowboys, like, I didn't grow up with that, like, in the 80s as far as the Cowboys being relevant living in New York. Like, for me, it was obviously a giant still coming off for the 86 Super Bowl, and then you had the Niners being as dominant as they were. Like, for me, the Cowboys. And the Bears, and the Bears as well, and what they were and Walter Payton the Super Bowl

shuffle the whole nine. So for me growing up, the Cowboys really in the 80s for me in New York, they really weren't that relevant for me. Yeah, they might as well have been like chubby checker. You know what I'm saying? Cab Callaway. You know, as a small child, all that shit is the same. Like for me, a lot of you not,

cut you off in the same vein. For me, that was the Packers as well. Like, the Packers for me, like, that was, I'm only looking at old grainy footage of the Packers, you know, Super Bowl 1 and 2, the Vince Lombardi. Like, for me, it was like, oh, who is this team? Like, the Packers for me were like, by definition, sorry. Now, keep in mind with the Packers, though,

they went to the playoffs twice in 20 years. Like after Lombardi, they had that long run. You remember that Don McCowski year. It was like, oh, the pack is back. But the Cowboys, just because of the timing of our youth, may as well have been the same. But the truth is, they only had like two, like the Tom Landry years. It was like the last three, two or three that weren't good. And then it moved into that new era.

But like the first Cowboys team I ever really remember watching or knowing anything about was like the 88 Cowboys. when they quarterback with Steve Pallure, I don't know if people, even every other Cowboys quarterback, basically, since they got good in the mid-60s, has been some kind of famous, right? Craig Morton, Don Meredith, Roger Starbock, Danny White. Like, you don't have to know about Danny White if you're young, but if you talk to people at the time, like, you know,

Danny White was something. Troy Aikman, you know, threw that run. And then in between was Steve Pallure. But he was my first Cowboys quarterback. He was the one that I knew of, man. and they were sorry. Look, I'll take your word for it. Because, look, prior to Ryan hit me up for this episode,

I had to look up who dude was. I was like, oh, wait a minute, there was a quarterback. All I think I know is that he wore number 11. I don't know what he looked like. He could be left-handed for all I know. I don't know anything, right? I just know that team was sorry.

Yeah. And then that year that Troy Aitman pulled up, they was excellent. extra sorry. Right. Right. And two, like, and obviously a lot of this is documented in the Cowboys Stock, but like they were bad, bad. And then obviously now looking at Revisors history, and you talk about Aitman, that's what wanted to go. Like, yeah, he was the number one pick, but it wasn't all glowing for Aitman to start. Like, not only was he bad, the team was bad. There wasn't a lot of confidence in him as well for a guy coming off being the number one

overall pick. First of all, if I'm not mistaken, the one game they won that year was the game he did not play. I think they were 0 and 11 with him and the starting quarterback. Jimmy was never really sold on him. You know, Jimmy went and got his guy. Right. He went and got Steve Walsh.

Right. The same year, they basically spent two number one overall picks on quarterbacks at the same time. They took Aikman in the draft draft and they took Steve Walsh in the supplemental draft with a first round pick

that wound up being worthy of the number one pick. But I'm going to run this by you because I don't think that this is something that people quite, understand if you are of a certain, of like, of our age, which is how good the Cowboys were when Tom Landry was the coach. Okay. Now, keep in mind that they only won two Super Bowls.

He went to five. They only won two and that's the way we measure people, right? Okay. I'm going to give you win totals. Keep in mind, these are 14, 14 game seasons through 1976 or is it 197 oh through 1977 okay I'm going to start in 1966 10 3 and 1 9 and 5 12 and 2 11 11 and 1 10 and 4 10 and 4 10 and 4 8 and 6 10 and 4 11 and 3 12 and 2 12 and 4 11 and 5 12 and 4 12 and 4 6 and 3 12 and 4 9 and 7 10 and 6 that's 20 years basically through 1985 that's what They weren't just kind of good all these years, right? They were a boss year after year after year. Even Danny White and those had three straight years ago

into the NFC championship game. They didn't win them, but in the early, the 80s, if Dwight Clark doesn't make that catch, they're going to the Super Bowl. Like, they were all the way through the 70s and through much of the 80s really, really good. And then as happens, like this, what happened to Tom Landry, this last three years

was 79, 7 and 8, and 13. and three. Sevent and nine and eight are not really that terrible. 13 and three, and then the team gets sold, you know, you wind up getting fired. But it was the Bill Belichick ending,

basically. It's got a Belichick just without the Super Bowls. I mean, I understand that that's a big gap, but just to give you an idea of what the Cowboys meant, and we saw none of it. We just pulled up to mediocrity.

Right. Look, I'll take your word for it. Like, yeah, I knew of Tony Dorset, but obviously too young to remember him as a player. Like, I know, like, I know the ADA Drew Pierce. Like, I know all of that, but I don't know what enough, like, to have experienced it when it was happening in real time. Or even, like, I was very aware of Herschel Walker as an idea.

But we didn't get great Herschel Walker out on field. No, no. Like, for me, it was Herschel Walker, Georgia Herschel Walker. That's the Herschel Walker that I knew of was college Herschel Walker. Yeah, see, I guess I understood her the magnitude of Herschel Walker as, like, best player on Dallas Cowboys. I guess also because of the Atlanta nature of my household. Herschel Walker, you know, Herssler Walker had been a start of them.

He was a junior high school because of the newspaper, right? You know, that was kind of where it was. But they, they were so bad in that one in 15 season that, Jerry, I don't think we talk enough about how, I was just reading this book that made a point about when the Spanish invaded some of these folks, that because the people had never seen guns, before, they couldn't even conceptualize what a gun was.

Like, imagine you don't know what a gun is. You out here ready to fight with your spears and your arrows and everything else. And then this dude points something at you and the next thing you know, people, is dying. Right. Like, you have no concept and no idea of what you're up against, right? You're like, wait a minute, give me a minute here. With that Hershal Walker trade, what I don't think that people get is that it's not simply that the Cowboys got a bunch of picks in the draft.

is that the cowboy in the trade is that the cowboys got a bunch of players in that trade. And there was a provision that said that if the cowboys released those players, then they would receive certain picks. And the Vikings thinking was, well, they're not going to get rid of all these perfectly good players. Why would you ever do such a thing, right? And Jimmy's plan the whole way was to cut them all. There was never any plan. like Derek Nelson, Jesse Solomon, all these guys.

Never once did he consider keeping them. Nobody had ever thought of a trade in the way that they had thought of a trade. And so they tanked without tanking, right? Like, because it didn't matter. They didn't have their number one. They didn't have their first round pick. They gave it up in the supplemental draft. Okay.

So they didn't even have any purpose. And are we sure? All right. Are we sure that was all Jimmy's idea, though? Like, like, I'm not going to cape for Jerry. Not at all because Jimmy's the football guy. We sure that was Jimmy's plan because we got to give Jerry. Jerry's a shrewd businessman.

So if there's any- I agree. Like looking at this from a business nation, not necessarily football, like the idea to put that language in that trade is a true business move. Now, it's probably Jimmy's idea, but I wouldn't put it past Jerry to like a Texas oil, like an oil man. Like I wouldn't try to pass them either. That's a, that is a fair point, right? It is entirely possible.

But some combination of the two of them made. fools of the Vikings. Right. Like think about this for the Vikings. They lost the players and they lost the picks. Right? The Cowboys got the players and played them because why not, you're not going to have your pick. You don't have any incentive really. I guess the later round picks you have to think about. But then at the end of the year, man, they cleaned house and got all of those dudes out of there. And it set up a crazy run where not only did they have the picks, they nailed the picks. And so the next year, if I'm not mistaken, Emmett Smith was one of those picks.

And he had to be, yeah, because he was drafted the next year. They go from 1 in 15 and they go to 7 and 9. Right. And Emmett Smith is, I think he ran for like 900-something yards that year. Like, it was, he was a very good college player that you weren't necessarily sure was going to turn into an excellent NFL player. But what we learned in the year after they went 79 and almost made the playoffs, the next year they made the playoffs, they played against the Bears.

And they won a wild card game against the Bears. and then they got smoked by the Detroit Lions with Troy Aitman able to play and Jimmy Johnson playing Steve Burly. Yeah. He was, see, that's my thing. Hold on it.

Hold on. Hold on. And then after the game was out of hand, put Troy in. Like, he was trying to, look, he was trying to force Troy up out of the head. Yeah, he was trying to find any way possible. He was just like, I just don't know about this guy.

But in that time, what we also learned, though, was they had put together an offensive line. Emmett Smith was that dude. And the last first round pick, I recall, of the Troy, no, yes, of the Tom Landry era was Michael Irving. Yeah. They were on the way, boys. Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah. And that's the part of it, too. Like, not just accumulating those draft picks, as you said, hitting on those draft picks as well. Like, we talk about the number of players that were involved, but it wasn't just the mass number. It's hitting on those guys, too. Like, you couldn't just go out there and get these numbers.

It was making the right selection, like you said, building the offensive line, you know, having a belief in a guy like Emmett who, like you said, there was still some questions. Like, it wasn't a no-brainer that this guy was going to hit and then him becoming what he became. So it was absolutely like having a foresight and the player personnel that Jimmy had

turned the Cowboys into what they became. All right. So let's look at like who some of these players were that the Cowboys got as a result of this trade. Emmett Smith, they got as a result of this trade. They did some other finagling, help use some of them picks to get the number one pick in 91. They got Russell Maryland. So Emmett Smith, the all-time leading Russian. Russell Maryland, a pro bowl defensive lineman.

A weird number one overall pick, though. Like you'll never ever again see a number one pick. where why did you get him? Eh, we're sure he'll be okay, right? Maybe the most low ceiling number one overall pick there's ever been. Kevin Smith, who's the first round pick with Texas A&M, defensive back. I think he became a pro bowler. Darren Woodson, who will be a peridial Hall of Fame finalist.

Finalist, yeah. One of those guys, every year they're going to stay. They just going to toy with that man every year. Hey, shout out to Darren Woods. We got him on my show tomorrow, too. And when I have to send him my email every year, It's Hall of Fame finalists. Yeah.

Hey, man, look, he seemed like a good dude. You know what I mean? I just don't think he's a Hall of Favor. And they just keep doing this. And they keep doing this. And they keep doing this. Oh, the Vikings got Jake Reed out of the deal. There you go.

There you go. HBCU legend. There you go. There you go. Right? But they made a rise in a way that I don't think I fully grasped how polarizing the Cowboys were as an entity at that point because again they had been sorry. But also I felt like it was a rise that made the team somewhat endearing, right?

Like it was rapid, but there were still steps. Like, you know, to, like, we watched them go a little bit up, a little bit up in that time period. And 1992 became a crazy year to think about, right? Like the 49ers, they've been down a couple of years. Washington in 91, and for those of you who are unaware, probably the best football team I've ever seen. Crazy.

Crazy. It was the 91 Washington team. They were, and there's no explaining to you why. Like, showing you the list of players isn't going to do it. You kind of just had to be there. Right. They were unreal. And the one game they lost.

And they hit, and they hit, like, that year. And they hit. Like, Mark Ripon was going to have a season like he did that year. No. And they just hit. No. No. And the Cowboys beat him that year. And the Cowboys beat him that year.

But you got to 92, and the 49ers now were back, right? Right. They had gone through the Joe Montana, Steve Young, transition. So in 1990, the Giants beat the 49ers in the NFC championship game, 10 to 9. Joe Montana got broken half. Litter Marshall hit him so hard in the back. Like, they don't let you do that no more, right? Like, that's roughen the passer.

Oh, my God. That's rough in the past. Even though it was in the course. wasn't a play, right? He breaks Joe Montana in half. The Giants win the Super Bowl that year. Washington wins the next year. Steve Young, who they've been, who they had on ice for three years, three, four years, just waiting, right? He now gets to be the starter. The 49ers eventually have to trade Montana. I don't say they trade them at the end of 92 because Joe's like, I can still play. And they're like, yo, we've moved on. Just so you understand, even Joe Montana,

they could do that too. Steve Young comes in, MVP caliber player. And now, Now it's 92, the 49ers are back. Jerry Rice is as good as he has ever been. They play the Cowboys in the 92 NFC championship game. And Jimmy Johnson has said that for that game, they knew that was the Super Bowl. Wasn't nobody really tripping on. Whatever was going on over there.

Buffalo, I think they played the Dolphins that year. I can't remember what they were like, hey, man, that ain't even really no thing here. The game is here. And boy, like, I didn't appreciate it fully at the time. But I did, of course, is the years winning. Really looking back on it now, the idea that you had the old dynasty and the new dynasty and the old dynasty never really slipped.

They had a year where they missed the playoffs, but they went 10 and 6. You know what I mean? And it's funny you bring up 92 because that was really like, for me, as a giant fan, that was really like the first year of my dislike for the Dallas Cowboys. Because like, although I'm a Giants fan, I like the 49ers as well, how could you not? Like Jerry Rice, whenever you're out there in the street, I'm Jerry Rice. If I'm a receiver, I'm Jerry Rice. If I'm a quarterback, I'm Joe Montana or whatever.

So like the 49ers were the 49ers. And then here comes this team that I hadn't really checked for. Because in the NFC East for me growing up, Eagles, Redskins, those were the teams that I looked at as more of the opponents there for the Giants. And then we had this Cowboys team. It's like, wait a minute, hold on. Where did these guys come from? And how dare you?

How dare you? The unmitigated goal to go out here and play the 49ers in this NFC. championship game. I'm scared you. By the way, right fast because you mentioned Jerry Rice, who I think is at worst the second best football player who ever lived. I think you go look at it numerically.

There's no, nobody's ever catching him for any of the stuff that he did, and he did it in the era where they didn't really throw the ball like that, right? You realize how crazy it is that you can show somebody, like show somebody the best five-minute video of Randy Moss on YouTube and then try to explain. He's number two.

Right. And try to explain what the D.Bs were allowed to do. Yes. With the D.Bs and the hits that the safeties were allowed to employ on the receivers at that time. Right. Like when people talk about Randy Moss, they're like, yo, you know, we always shaded the safety over that way.

I don't hear people talk about Jerry Rice like that because that didn't matter. It didn't matter what you was doing. No, no. It was easily the most unguarded. offensive player as a wire receiver in history. Like it's, and that's the thing too. It's like, like, because you bring up Randy Moss, like at least with Moss, like he had the measurables.

Like you look at Moss and he walks into a room. It's like, oh, oh, that dude. Like, Jerry, not the same way. No. So for him, the route running, the catching, the run, they always talk about he's faster after he catches the ball, like all of those stories. And then you look at Jerry Rice. So like, okay, you look at the highlights.

That makes sense. Oh, that's why Jerry Rice is. Just the illest, right? Yeah. Right. Just the illest. Just the illest. But you know what's interesting to look back on with those Cowboys teams in terms of style of play?

Let me get into kind of like personality and stuff like that after the break. But what's interesting to me about them is Jimmy Johnson football is not an exciting brand of football, right? It wasn't exciting at Miami. It wasn't exciting with the Cowboys. They had a pop tool, right? Like, they was it. They was them. But in the end, we're going to run the ball over.

over and over and over again. And then on defense, we're going to rush four and we're going to drop seven. Why? Because our players are better than yours. That is our strategic advantage. Well, then that goes back to Jerry. I mean, excuse me, with Jimmy and his scouting

and his player evaluation. The fact that we didn't have to do all this other extra stuff because when we step out here, no matter if we're offensive defense, the 11 guys that we put down here is better than 11 guys. You're going to put out here. What are you going to do about it? Here you go.

Boom. Stop it. We're going to run it here. We're going to give it to Emmett 40 times. Go ahead, stop it. Aitman's going to pass it maybe 15 times. Well, think about this, right? And most people know those people who don't know.

Jimmy coached at Miami before he got to Dallas. University of Miami. Like Howard Schnellenberger starts the era, but the U is born truly as a brand, as a personality, as an entity. That is with Jimmy. Jimmy somehow was able to treat the NFL like it was when he was coaching Miami as an independent. Every week, we are going to have better players than you, right? And if all, if what we do is we execute what we do with our better players,

you will not be able to beat us. You are not supposed to be able to do that in the NFL. if this is the pre-free agency era, right? Like the Steelers managed to do this because they had that unreal draft run, right? Where they were just out here draft to Swan, Stallworth, Elsie Greenwood, Millville,

just everybody. A whole of fame draft classes, right? Whole of Fame draft classes, right? Right, like with three or four at the same time. Right. Okay, maybe you can pull this. But by the 90s, you're not supposed to be able to just say, how about we just line them up and see who's the best? What do you say?

I like our guys' chances. But you go ahead. That's cute. That's cute. That's cute. Oh, you're a little run defense. Oh, that's cute. Have you seen my offensive line?

Yo, Jimmy, Jimmy's shit is like, we could have won this if it was Tech Bowl Bowl, right? If we got four plays and y'all got four plays. And you just got to figure out what four plays we're going to run, right? We'll beat everybody that way if you want it. If that's how you want to do it, we'll do it. And the other interesting part to me, and of course, like, you have Akeman, you have Emmett Smith, you have Michael Irvin, right?

Those three Hall of Famers that would, you know, talk about, you hear about the offensive line and everything else. But when you really stop and think about them, especially on defense, that wasn't about superstars. Like, who do you think is the best of that run? I guess they went to got Charles Haley, and that's an interesting one.

But he's a guy. he's a guy that I don't count in a way because he's not like he's not one of the dudes that came through the rise right of what this team was like who's the best of those defensive guys is it russell maryland like who will be talking about jim jeff coat um ken norton maybe ken norton yeah but like we're not we're not talking about hall of fame players right right i think that's a big part of why there's the push for darren watson often is because somebody over here has got to be a hall of famer right even that offensive line larry allen went to the hall of fame but he was only on of those Super Bowl teams.

Like, while they had better players, it also was a case that the sum was greater than the whole of the part. The whole is greater than the sum of the parts. Right, right. I almost had George W. Bush moment right there. I'm sure a saying in Tennessee too. Yes, yes. But they had a collection of guys.

Now, you had dudes like Eric Williams, Eric Williams, Nate Newton. Like, they had guys. I'm not saying the guys weren't good. And they had guys that they might not have been Hall of Famers, but they were perennial pro bowlers. Like you look at the 90s teams whenever you would have, because whenever I would play Techno Bowl or whatever,

and every year it's either the full NFC Pro Bowl is Cowboys in the 49ers. Like that was, that was the stretch in the 90s. So like you said, even though they weren't Hall of Famers, those guys up and down the line, whether it was offensive model or some of the defensive guys were still Pro Bowl caliber players when that still matter. Yeah, they did a lot.

They got a lot of it done at one time. And coming up next, we'll talk about the next fun part of it is. We'll talk about, obviously, you got Aikman, you got Smith, you got Irvin. But what you also have is the personality of this team, which is kind of unlike anything we've seen since. Coming up next. Every Friday from 6 to 7.30, it's NBA happy hour on fan duel, your pregame for the weekend. We're talking limited time specials you won't want to miss.

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ZipRecruiter.com slash Beaumani. Again, that's ZipRecruiter.com slash Bobani. ZipRecruiter, the smartest way to hire. All right, we are back with Shannon Penn talking about the Cowboys Dynasty of the 1990s. One thing that's always very interesting to me is hearing Troy Aikman talk about Michael Earp, and the recognition of Michael Irvin as leader and the importance of having Michael Urban to him as a quarterback. Because if you go back and look at the numbers for those Cowboys teams,

basically if they were passing the ball, they were throwing the ball to Michael Irk. Right. Right. We're like, you got to remember, they didn't pass the ball much. And Troy Aikman had one season over 20 touchdowns in his whole career. Fun fact that people do not know.

But Michael Irvin was by and large, getting his numbers. And you seen that clip where he talks about, where he got to cuss and explained to them dudes, I played when there was pain. And that's real, right? Like, nobody in the league anymore. There used to be a league where what do you say about that guy? Man, he'd make the hard catches. There aren't hard. Like, we don't, I'm not saying catches are easy now, but we don't have, like, them hospital balls ain't what they were back in the day. Michael Irvin made the hard catches on a team where, everybody knew that the ball was going to him.

Absolutely. And that's the thing, too, with Irvin, and obviously we'll get to Jerry. But Irvin was the spirit of those teams. Like, even, I mean, he was on those bad Cowboys teams. Like, he was the spirit of it. So then when they then brought in Jimmy, they were able to usher in some of that same, that spirit in emotion that you saw Jimmy have

and Irvin have with those Miami teams. And then he brought that, in that leadership value, too, that leadership aspect to the Cowboys when they were starting to get good. You know, giving guys the Aitman that confidence when he knew the head coach didn't have that with him, but still giving him the confidence. And of course, he's a playmaker.

So when he knew he was getting the ball, the balls going to him, he was going to make the plays because they weren't throwing at a time. I think that Michael Irvin has an argument for being, like, culturally the most significant football player that there has ever been. Not saying he is all the way, but he has an argument.

Like we don't, the line I've used is like, what if Jalen Rose was a first ballot Hall of Fame type of player, right? So think about this. The influence of the University of Miami on the culture of college football, right? Like that was it takes a nation to be as the whole does back type shit where they were like, this, they became something and the NCAA was like, this has to stop and this has to stop right now. But the truth is, the dominant culture in football. really over the last 35 years has been the culture of the state of Florida, right?

Like, you started looking around and looking up, and there's all these dudes with goals and all these dudes who dreads. Like, Florida became the football when Atlanta became the rap. Like, it influenced everything in touch. Even if Michael Irvin did not fit the archetype of that, the attitude of state of Florida football was the attitude of the University of Miami. Even Florida State, which was, I mean, trafficking in very similar players. And Bobby Bowden was a very little.

live and let live sort of dude. No, no, no, no. It was the Miami hurricane starting really in 1985, right? That's the year they went to Oklahoma. It would have punked them at midfield, right? That is the beginning of the U era, as far as I'm concerned. And the personification of that is Michael Irvin, right? Like, of course, you have Melbourne, Brad and he had Alonzo High Smith.

It's not like there are on other dudes. But Irvin then takes this to the NFL and the Cowboys become the Miami of this. And I think, yes, some of that's about Jimmy because Jimmy kind of like that stuff. Jimmy enjoyed running up to score on people and everything else. But no, no, no. The center of this is Michael Lurvin will tell you, he's a winner dog. Like, for everything around Michael Lurvin, man, that dude worked hard. That dude put into grind. That dude did the difficult things, right? That dude had a, shall we call it, savvy understanding of power dynamics. Yes. You're to push back on and who not to push back on and the likes and everything else.

But the truth is he was and he was every bit as good as he said he was. And that's the thing too. That was like old school, very old school. And like this whole Cowboys thing don't hit without Michael Irvin. Like it don't hit in the same way. Not saying they wouldn't have been good. It don't hit the same way because like he brought that the confidence. I'm not going to use the word swagger because they get you overused.

but he brought that confidence and that standard to the Cowboys. Like, hey, like you said, I'm a winner and we should be winning, and I'm not going to accept anything less than winning. Like, yes, you might seem loud or whatever, but I'm putting in the work and why aren't you putting that same level of work? Because, look, I'm about winning, dog. So if you ain't about winning, we bring in a coach who's about winning, who's about to do anything possible to get these dubs.

And he handed Jimmy Johnson a list of the dudes that needed to go. Yeah, yeah. When he shows up, he was like, these guys are losers. And we need to get him out, get them out of here. Because that was the thing about the Keynes, look, man, one thing about that Miami era we don't talk enough about is they suffer some horribly embarrassing losses along the way. There's the 92 Sugar Bowl.

There's the 85 Sugar Bowl against Tennessee where they lost like 38 to 9. There's the 86 Fiesta Bowl, you know, where they took that ill. They, Michael Urban been through some football fangs, right? Like he got that national championship in 87. They didn't get it in 86 when they were supposed to, right? And I remember him after that game in 86 being out there doing the interviews after they had been so obnoxious the whole way and like owning the fact that they did not get it. Like that dude learned a hard way what it takes in order to get it.

He suffered through a one and 15 season in the NFL. He went through all of that and man, he was good. Like I just can't. And again, not in a way where you're going to see like unreasonable. footage of how good he was. It's just going to be like, damn, he caught another one, huh? And that's the thing, because it wasn't the cumulative numbers. Like, it was the important, like, the playmaker.

Like, it was making plays when they counted most because he wasn't going to put up numbers because they didn't pass at the same level as some of the other receivers of his time. But it was like, all right, we need a big play, big third down. Let's go to Michael Irvin. You saw it in some of those 49 games. You saw it some of those playoff games against the Packers. Hey, we need a big catch.

Hey, go to Michael Irving. Hey, win there was. He's like, these little youngsters, you are not going to minimize this bang, eight, dog. No, sir, when there was pain. Then we also have Emmett Smith. And as I look back on it, I don't think we gave Emmett Smith enough credit at the time. And I think especially because Barry Sanders looks so incredible that, you know, the argument very frequently was, well, what if Barry Sanders got to play behind the Cowboys offensive line, which is fair?

I also think that the Lions were better in that era than they got credit for being with Barry Sanders. Like they were not, this was not the Joey Harrington Lions that he was playing for. They were not great, but they were not, they were not abject, right? Like, he was not just out there entirely by himself. But that is the comparison that Emmett Smith always had to deal with. And it was almost held against him that he was so durable, right? like you could just keep giving them the ball.

But if a hole was there, he was going to hit it. And he was going to hit it quick. And next thing you don't become the all-time leading Russia in the history of NFL without being a beast. You don't win a Russian title in 14 games without being an actual factual beast. Right. And too, because it didn't look like Barris Sanders did.

Like I mentioned before, when we out here in the streets playing, if you were a quarterback, you wanted to be Montana, if Y, if Yerey received you wanted to be Rice, if running back, you wanted to be Barris Sanders, no one. And I mean, no one was out this. saying, yo, I'm Emma Smith. Right.

Like, look, you're on the Cowboys in the 90s. No one wanted to be Emma Smith, but he just went about his, he went about his business because he didn't look like Barry Sanders. Well, especially if you play it against, like, an imaginary person. You know what I'm saying? Like, all you're doing is just running in straight lines if you're Smith.

Like, you're Barry Sanders. You're out here spinning, you know, like all real stuff. That's all I can't imagine going in the backyard pretending to be Tom Brady. What, just standing there? Right, exactly. Like, I'm not out here in the streets, like, being applauded for being a patient running back? No.

I'm out here jukeying. I'm trying to break ankles. Nah, that dude was so good. All that dude was so good. And he has, for me, one of the most memorable running back games ever. And it's the type of game that nobody is ever going to go, why you're doing that?

Why are you doing that? I want to see what you're getting you're referring to. I got a feeling I know which one is going to be. But go ahead. Go ahead. Tell us, Bo, what? Which game is it? It is the type of a gladiator performance that we don't see for running backs anymore. And it is the last game of the season at Giant Stadium, 1993, Smith and the Giants.

And sometimes toward the end of the first half, I believe it was they threw him and Smith on the ground. He had to separate his shoulder that he clearly could not move at all. He could only move it enough to take a hand off, basically. and they tied that arm up, ally Lawrence Taylor in the Superdome against the Saints. And they just kept giving the ball to Emma Smith over and over again in the second half

and just pounded the Giants to win the NFC East and ultimately go win the Super Bowl. How do you let this do with one arm beat you? That's what I was like, that was my thing. It was like, I gave no credit, no praise to Emmett Smith. My thing was I was so pissed off and annoyed. Like you knew he was hurt.

Everybody knew. and you let this dude with one arm beat you. And it wasn't like it was giving him, they kept feeding him with one arm. Like, what are you doing? Like, you couldn't, no strip, you couldn't punch him in the arm, nothing. Like, what are we doing here?

First of all, you have to be that dude for them to be like, I know you got one arm. And we're still going to give you the ball. And we're still going to beat them dudes. They still. With you, what they want on? I can't imagine how insulting that was.

Bro, like, try to explain that. It's like you feel like you're the damn Harrison Ford and a fugitive. Like, yo, we just lost to a one-arm man. Like, what are we out here doing? Like, come on. To this day, bro, to this day, that's how I knew exactly what game you was talking about. Like, he had one end, man, and one-on. So the thing is, I knew you would know what game it was.

I did not know, however, what an acute memory it was for you. It wasn't like he was rotating the ball. He kept it in the ball in the same strong hand because he couldn't put it in his other hand. You knew that. and you still allowed it to happen. They just, like, there's nothing more demoralizing, and that's something this generation will never understand than the good old nine-minute drive.

You remember back when it would just be nine-minute drives? Demorelizing. We're just going to line up in the eye, and we go pound y'all over and over again. And that's worse. Like, if it's a big play drive, like, there's a shock value to it. Like, I can't believe it just happened, and you move on.

We're getting the ball back. when you had these demoralizing eight, nine minute long drives, and you just beat down to hell, and you got your third team defensive linemen out there because the other guys are winded, and they still just giving it to you. And then you turn around a look, and it's a one-on man that's doing it to you.

On national television, on national television, too. Everybody saw it. I was so, I was so. And the Giants weren't supposed to be good that year. I think that was Dan Reeves' first year. or either way. Y'all thought you always going to win a division and y'all didn't.

Should have won a division. Should have won the division. Except for the fact that Emmett Smith was that dude that day. It was there's that dude that day. And keep in mind, his shoulder didn't get unseperated, right? I guess they got a buy week, but they went and won the Super Bowl again. And that was the one.

They beat the 49ers in the 92 season. And that was a, they beat him at Cannot. part, it felt like a changing of the guard, but it didn't feel fair to call it the change of the guard. Like, you know, the 49ers had already been down for a year. Y'all, I mean, the 49ers were the best team in the NFC, that regular season. It was like, okay, you won the game. 93, 93 felt like a change into the guard.

Oh, that was different. That was different. That was different. And I think a lot of that, too, came from that winning in, more than even even the Super Bowl. It was beating the 49ers in 92, and it was, was like, oh, there's nobody out here that can beat us. Like, yeah, they didn't, like, from that, from that 92 NFC championship on, it was like, oh, this is different. Like, this is different. It don't, it don't matter what you guys doing.

Y'all not beating us. Yeah. And they, and they weren't. Like, I remember there was a play. I think it was to Ricky Waters. And this is what I knew. It was like, oh, man, y'all just finished. It was a toss player to Ricky Waters or a handoff.

I can't remember which. But they got them at the line and drove him back like seven yards. And it would have been forward progress. except he kept his balance and then tried to run again. And they took him down. And it's just like, damn, y'all, no, y'all look like, y'all feel like the bad news bears out here now. And y'all are 49ers.

Right, right, right, right. Like the gold standard of the NFL for a team that won 10 games, like 14 years in a row, you know, in nine strike seasons. They were the gold standard. The Cowboys was like, no, it's a snap. Right. And two, and just how it lined up time-wise, But you had, obviously, you know, the 49ers being the team of the 80s and just how it lined up would it be in the early 90s. Like it very much felt like a change of the garden, not just on the field, but off the field as well.

I know we'll get into the off the field stuff with the Cowboys, but it really did feel like, oh, this is about this is what the 90s is supposed to, is going to look like. Like, it very much felt that way. Right. Because it was very clear that, like, Jerry Rice did not like the Cowboys get down, right? which led to something very interesting because 94 is when D.I. Sanders goes to play for the 49ers. He has his best season. He is a defensive player of the year. The 49ers were the best team in the NFC. They ultimately beat the Cowboys in the NFC championship game. This is also after we have so many things that we could have gotten to. But Jimmy Johnson getting fired by Jerry Jones because Jimmy was being disrespectful and Jerry had enough of it.

It's really the best way to put it. right? Like Jimmy say they have the owner's meeting and Jimmy pulls up to a table to talk to guys and Jerry's there. I mean, and Jerry pulls up and Jimmy's there and Jerry speaks to Jimmy and Jimmy don't say nothing in front of people. Yeah, you're going to get fired for that, right? Like, you can't do this in front of Nick's company? Like, yo, yo, like you can't be embarrassing me. Yeah, you can make the argument that maybe Jerry should have put up with it. But I understand why he didn't, right? Like I think I've always felt as though there was, you know, there was a limited shelf life on what Jimmy was doing and the nature and the way that he motivated people and the incredibly harsh way that he dealt with people. His belief that fear was the greatest

motivator. It was a very collegiate style that only goes so far would grow men, right? After a while, that was going to run out of rope no matter what. Now, I don't know if it was going to run out a rope by 1994, but at some point it was going to go too far. But 94, they bring Switzerland in. And the truth is, the 49ers went up like 14-0, mad early. in that game. And that margin wound up being what mattered. The Cowboys did not play a bad game after that. But Dion going to the 49ers, Jerry didn't really like him when he was, didn't like Dionne when he was there because Dion's whole Stee's is the opposite of the 49ers Stee's and the Jerry Rice Stee's. But at that point, Dion Sanders was the best defensive player at football.

He was the defensive player of the year. And I mean, that 94 team was loaded. Like, your second best defensive back was Tim McDonald. Your third best was Merton Hanks. And Deion and Jerry, Wright-Snew too, was like, look, I don't get down to where he'd get down. In order for us to beat this juggernaut that's on the other side of Dau's Cabo. Because that's all I was. Like, getting Dion was all about beating the Cowboys that year. That's all it was. It was like, we need this dude to play at this level. We need an athlete like this to play in this level to beat these dudes. That's what that was.

Yeah. But think about, man, they got kids. Ken Norton also that year. Yeah. That was Bryant Young's rookie year. They had Dana Stubblefield. On defense, they were loaded. Offense, you're talking about like Ricky Waters, Will Floyd, Jerry Rice still at the peak of his powers.

Steve Young, the best that he has ever been. I mean, there was a lot of really good football players on the field in that game. And 49ers got it. They won it. They went to the Super Bowl, and that was just, who, boy, that was comical. Steve Young threw for six touchdowns. and then Dion comes to the Cowboys. And the truth is,

D.I. Sanders on the Cowboys, to me, it's kind of like when James Hardin went to the Rockets. Not so much when James Hardin went to play for the Rockets to basketball team, but when he went to Houston. And James Hardin's whole life, he thought he was a California dude. You know what I mean? Uh-huh.

And then he got to Houston and was like, wait a minute, this is what I am, right? Dior Sanders was always a Dallas Cowboy. He just had not played for them yet. Right? Like the time, the pairing of Dion with the Cowboys was, yep, this is what this was always supposed to be. Right. It was, I mean, pun intended, but it was prime time.

Like, it felt like it was must see TV. Like the Cowboys were the Cowboys and the Personnel's, but then when you add Dion, it's like, oh, we need to watch every game. Like, every game. It was big. You also had in that year, too, because you had Dion. You had the Jerry Jones Nike deal. You had the Jerry Jones Pepsi deal around that same time as well. It's like everything that they're doing is elevated to be like this.

There's levels to this. It's like, y'all here in the NFL, Cowboys, like, we're here. Like, this is different. This is before reality TV. Like, this is making sure that the Cowboys were going to be the 24-hour news cycle before such a thing really even existed to the extent that it does now. It's like year-round, it was like, oh, what do the Cowboys do? Good, bad, bad, or indifferent.

They were larger than life. And then we started talking about, you know, the White House, right? Yeah. And all those things that then go around it. They were larger than life. And I think this is also in line, not directly tied to the Miami influence of Michael Lurvin, but also a similarity between them, which is,

and look, the Cowboys had some of this going in the 70s also. But it's one thing to be the best team in the league. But this had the college-ride energy to it. They weren't cheating, but it felt like they was cheat. And they'd be into stuff. Like college football is all about the good teams also being, into stuff. They was into stuff. It's interesting to make that point because it felt like for those

Cowboys teams, like there was a different set of rules for the Cowboys and there were other teams in the NFL. It's like you're allowing these guys to get away with stuff, some on the field, but mostly off the field that, hey, it would be frowned upon with other teams. Like, the concept and idea of having a White House, it would in itself, you wouldn't fathom that happening in a Green Bay, Wisconsin, you know, or the 49ers with their culture. But for Dallas, hey, that was accepted.

Like, it was very much, like, we still had a lot of the remnants of the outlaw, renegade vibes of those University of Miami teams, which goes back to our point earlier of the micro-urban influence. The White House, which, by the way, is the name of Michael Irvin's new podcast. That...

Did you see where here, He was like, I ain't done cocaine in 20 years, but it ain't no five-hour cocaine. If you got some five-hour cocaine, let me know. I'm like, partner, I don't know nothing about this. Right? Like, I ain't know nothing at all. Because here's the thing about Michael Irvin

when it comes to something like cocaine, right? The thing about Michael Irvin and the cocaine is, only problem of cocaine caused Michael Irvin as far as we know was getting arrested. Like, he was still coming to work all time. He was still on his garage. He was like, I see no reason. to change anything about my lifestyle.

But after that Super Bowl, the last one, Super Bowl 30 in Arizona, over the Steelers, honestly, the part that's interesting in that is that they didn't play the 49ers in the conference championship game that year. Instead, they played the Green Bay Packers. And it becomes a very interesting point of comparison because the Packers had Brett Farb on one side, Reggie White on the other. They had an argument that they had the two best players in the NFL at that point. And they had a nice run after this, right?

A couple of Super Bowls on that. man, it paled in comparison to what we're talking about here with these Dallas Cowboys. And the Packers are a pretty big deal around the country. It was nothing like this. But 96 is when Michael Irvin gets arrested. And you remember they had to picture that big old rock that they found in the hotel. That rock was like this big. I'm not exaggerating.

Like, rot don't even feel like the right word. It felt like a bolder, looking like a pebble. Like this giant-ass rock. had that they busted them with. And you watch the Netflix doc, right? The part where Michael Irvin explains, and I need you guys to understand this. This trial is in Dallas.

It's in March. Michael Irvin is making an appearance for the grand jury. He shows up in a full-length mink. Michael Urban lives in Dallas. Michael Urban is from Miami. Why does Michael Irvin have a make? just in case he had to go before the grand jury. And he explained in that documentary that he did that

because the district attorney came to him and told Michael Irvin that he felt like Michael Irvin was taking these white girls and getting them on this dope and corrupting them. And therefore, this white man was going to put him in jail. And Michael Irvin told him that after this was over, somebody was still going to pay him a million dollars to catch a football. and your little show-ed-ass is still gonna be,

I can't even remember the rest. But Michael Irvin said that about that mink and I quote, it was necessary. Very much like that too. Very much Michael Irvin way. And I believe him 100%.

It was, to him, it was absolutely necessary. And by I say, Michael Lurbin is an articulate, enunciating motherfucker right? Absolutely. Absolutely. He gets everything out of every syllable.

It was necessary. That was what the cowboys were at this point, because now they're Barry Switzer's Cowboys. Like, this is when Barry Switzer gets caught at the airport with the tool in the bag, like this around this time. Like, this is who they were at this point. This is the part of behind the music where now the records they sell it like they used to.

Like they reached their heights And then you start seeing the signs Where it's starting to turn And right Well like in 96 In 96 they put out a top five record You know what I'm saying But like it was cool

Like it was cool Like it didn't really like it felt like them But it wasn't really like the same Like yeah It's cool you know I mean it's home again It ain't really any heartbreak It's cool

You got hit me off you know It's cool It ain't get back to the top right It has some jams on it, right? There's no question. It has some songs. But it ain't, it ain't get back to the top. And then 97 basically it's over.

97 they missed the playoffs. Yeah. Like, it's a rap. Barry Switzer's fired. Like, what's Chang Galeo coach, man? You know. It felt very white flaggish. I think the full end is in 90s.

Yeah. Yeah. I think, I mean, the full end to me truly, like, honestly, as a dynasty, it had been over. But the true end is what Michael Irvin, you know, hurts his neck in Philadelphia. Like, that's where we're like, we're not even talking about this really anymore. Aikman retired

in 2000. So Irving gets hurt 99, Aikman retires in 2000. It's just like, no, this is a rap. This is... And you had Dion dealing with the turf toe at the same time, too. That's right. And you had Dion not really being what Dionne, Dion was. Offensive line, as we talked about, wasn't the same offensive line that they had in the early 90s. So you saw the decline

from not only the top tier players and what happened there, obviously with Irving and Deon was injury, but also you didn't see the depth and the talent anymore as well. Yeah. And you know, we ain't taught that much about Troy Aitman in this, and that's no shade of Troy Aikman.

Troy Aikman was a very good quarterback on a very good team, and we'll never know just how good Troy Aikman was because it never came up. But I will say once again, Troy Aikman threw 20 touchdowns once. I'm not making this number up, guys. Right.

All right. Well, so here we talk about Elephant Flint and Rome. We didn't get to Aitman, but the biggest elephant, we got it. We got to address when it comes to Dallas Cowboys, and really haven't. Like, the Jerry factor in all of this. Yeah. Like the Jerry, the Jerry factor, the PT Barnum style that was Jerry Jones in all of this, I think, on the field aside, I think,

All of that, the extra stuff is what separated the Cowboys and why their dynasty, that 90s run is looked at so differently compared to some of the other dynastic runs that we've seen over time because it was so different. It really was. Like it made people care about the Cowboys in a way that had absolutely nothing to do with the on-field performance, whether it was more spotlight, the Dallas Cowboys cheerleaders.

It was like I mentioned, the Nike deal, the Pepsi deal, the commercials, the personalities, the riffs, like all of that stuff, it goes back to a lot of it with the branding goes back to Jerry Jones. The moment I will never forget is in 94,

Jerry debuted, they had these double-star jerseys. Because the Cowboys are basically one of the same jerseys since, as long as I can remember, right? And you'll see they wear these throwback jerseys now, but these were different. This is the throwback year

where everybody was wearing their throwbacks, but they broke out a whole new jersey, right? It had a star here, it had a star there. It was like the double star jersey. And when it was time to break and debut those jerseys,

I'll never forget, modeling that jersey was Jerry Jones. Jerry Jones was in a full uniform, pads and all, and he pulled up on NBC or Fox one of those in the jersey as the model for it.

like he was a football player. He played on a national championship football team. He saw himself as a football man. His inspiration is Al Davis, right? Who was a football man? It was very involved in football in that way. And Jerry wanted to feel like or believe that he should be involved in the football of it all. But also, he decided we're going to make this thing really big.

Yeah. And he did make it. really big. Now, the question, of course, for people is, did he make it big at the expense of the football? I don't know. Right? It seems easy to make that connection. But

I can't even say he changed the gang because nobody else has tried to do it like him. Like, George Steinbrenner was living a very similar sort of life, except Jerry never seen done hinged. And Steinbrenner, with the military background, was very much regimented, obviously,

with the facial air policy. And that, and that some of the thing where he had to respect for the past, but it was kind of, it was really with Steinbrenner, it was a little too traditional when it came to that sense. Where Jerry was like, hey, nobody else is doing this. Let's try this.

Well, also, yeah, Jerry's not a bad guy. Like, Jerry didn't, Jerry didn't put a PI on any of his players to try to, to try to take them down, like Steinbrenner, you know, like, but you're right, he is,

no agent, and it's funny, no owner anywhere decided to kicking like Jerry. Like nobody ever really kicked it like Al Davis. I mean, I'm a big out. I mean, Al hung on a little bit too long with what he was doing. But I don't know, God, I love Al. This is the idea of Al Davis is amazing to me. And I mean, I mean, Al Davis had the overhead projection presentation when he fired like if he did. He did. And he was right. Everything he said was right. The thing with Al Davis, though, I see, what makes Al interesting or different to me than Jerry is,

I believe Al Davis was a genius. I do not believe that Jerry Jones was. Like I think that Al Davis had a vision for his franchise. Like when you think about all the things that Al Davis did, like Al Davis was, Al Davis had a hand in the football. Al Davis came up with all those slogans and sayings that would be around the field. He changed the colors of the jerseys to silver and black,

not just involving the football, a very clear philosophy. I thought to somebody who worked at like the Raiders store in the mall in Sacramento, and Al was coming in looking at the merchandise is set up and all of that stuff, right? Like, Jerry, I felt like, is a great promoter. And his thing was the NFL has a set of rules that are about sharing the wealth. But we drive more wealth than anybody else. So we should get more wealth than everybody else, which is honestly a violation of the

principles that they had tried to enact. And like Al Davis, he decided to challenge it and get the money that there was for the Cowboys because he knew the Cowboys were different. He knew the Cowboys was special. And for the Cowboys to be that girl, sometimes that girl got to act like that girl now, don't she? You know, but he's, he's it. And the truth is, he's the only common thread from the dynasty to now, but he's also the only common thread from the dynasty ending to now. He'll always be the person that we associate what goes wrong with. Right. And look, everybody. Everybody's been to the conference

final, a conference championship game except for what, them and the Texans? That sounds about right. Like pick a team out of hat. Yeah, yeah,

because even Jacksonville's made it, made it twice. Twice, yeah. The Jets have made it twice. Yeah. The lions have made it. Everybody done got, the Cardinals have been to a Super Bowl.

Oh, hold on, hold on. I forgot about the Browns. That's all me. Yeah, that's all me. they say one day one day by the way you see they're gonna send the the the the saints and the the browns over the paris to play and aside from the fact that that football ain't going to be it i was hoping it would be the falcons and the saints so that uh we can't new no could go you understand

what i'm saying we we could make that trip no they can't you can't you can't have that the falcons in the city you can't have that yeah you say you in front of company you can yeah yeah With the Falcons and the Saints, you can't just be, you can't have that. Yeah, I tell you this, though, instead you're going to get a bunch of people from Cleveland. Well, yeah, that's. No, it's going to be fun for New Orleans supposed to go there because I went to Paris and finally New Orleans made sense. But that's what I was going to say. I'm sure they picked the Saints because of the whole French, you know.

Yeah, the Saints have been pushing for that. Like, they had been, they had been trying to get that. I don't know how we wound up there, but oh, well, it happens. There's one more, there's one more factor, too, I had to bring up with the Cowboys. And a lot of this is because of Jerry Jones and the promotion, the P.T. Barnum, as I mentioned before, it's Cowboys fans. Like, I know I'm wanting to talk as a Nick fan. Like, I get it.

I get it. But Cowboy fans, and that's part of it, too, when we go back to the 90s that made them insufferable, but Cowboy fans, like, they all, Cowboys fans insist upon themselves to borrow a term. from Peter Peter Griffin. Like, this got nothing to do with y'all, but you're somehow, some way, still find yourself trying to put yourselves in these conversations.

This ain't got nothing to do with you. What is this in this case? Everything. Everything in, everything in life. Like, dog, next year is going to be out of year. Dog, the only way we're going to see your Super Bowl winners on VHS, somehow you're still inserting yourselves. Like, honestly, it still feels like a celebratory moment

on social meeting when the Cowboys lose. has that feel. And we are 30 years removed from them winning the Super Bowl. It's like Cowboy fans always, I don't know if this worse now because the delusional now or the 90s when they were actually good. Like it's just, for me, it's just Cowboy fans still to this day. Maybe they've been humbled a little bit. I doubt it. But Cowboy fans is probably the worst part of all of this, all of it. I think they get a bad rap, man. They've been law and they've been dedicated to this sad sack outfit. They don't. don't get no payoff from it. They keep coming back. Like, they are Knicks fans now.

Like, y'all are the same. And that's the thing. They used to make the joke, well, you know, we won champ. Well, it's been 30 years. Like, I get it. Knicks have been 50 plus. Yeah, but that might as well be the same. It's the same. Like, right, that's the thing. If I can't, if I can't watch your Super Bowl or your championship highlights in HD, then we all in the same. We group and y'all in the same boat. If this shit ain't, if it ain't in 4K, then we ain't the same. I knew you just wanted to get that in, so I'm going to let you have. I had to. Oh, my God. I had to. Oh, my gosh. I had to. Hey, that is Shannon Pidd. Check out Freddie and Harry. Afternoons,

ESPN Radio. My brother, I appreciate you. Yes, sir. Hey, and ladies and gentlemen, thanks so much for joining us here on the right time. We do this three, four times a week. Ryan Brumley handles everything behind the scenes. Thank you, sir. Hit the voicemail line. 3, 2, 3, 9, 6, 7, 67, 67. By the way, Shannon Wright Fazz, who the funniest name that you could imagine. in the Epstein files. Oh my gosh. Well, there were some reports that said it was a couple of rappers, but I don't know how true that was.

Yeah, I say Tim Tebow. No, he was just praying, you know? Yeah, just saying, but if he turned up in there, that would be funny. That would be funny. He was just praying for him. That's all that was. Yeah, that's why he was on that one knee.

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