The Right Time with Bomani Jones - Vinnie Goodwill on Knicks' title chances, Can Nuggets dethrone Thunder? Lakers Expectations | 10.22

Episode Date: October 22, 2025

Bomani Jones is joined by Vinnie Goodwill, who recently joined ESPN. They preview the upcoming 2025-26 NBA season, starting with the New York Knicks and their championship aspirations and how they will fare against the rest of the Eastern Conference. Later, they discuss the Western Conference and whether the Rockets or Nuggets have the best chance to take down the Oklahoma City Thunder. Finally, they break down the Los Angeles and why anything is possible for LeBron James, Luka Doncic, & JJ Redick this season. 2:30 - Title or Bust for Knicks 29:00 - Can Nuggets take down Thunder 43:30 - Lakers drama incoming? Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the right time, a wave original. My name is Beaumani Jones. Thanks for listening wherever you get your podcast. Thanks for watching us on YouTube. Subscribe, like, rate us, review us, give us five stars. You only give us four stars. I'm inclined to believe you are a hater. It is that time of week where we have a guest joined us.

Coming to us live from Detroit for now. But now of ESPN, Vinnie Goodwill, what's going on? I thought you was going to trip up. and say the wrong thing. You know what I mean? Oh, brother. This is an occasion. It's the first time that we have had you on here

since you moved over to the show, man. Congratulations. Appreciate you, man. I feel like this has been a long but short offseason. So with the season getting ready to go. Hold on. Somebody got deflected, trying to get away from these here.

Congratulations. Like, look, this is the truth. No matter, look, we all do this job and we do these jobs in different places. And overwhelmingly, the jobs you do are the same. It's just somebody else that writes a check and a different management structure. But it is dishonest of anybody to not act as though

getting to a job at ESPN in the capacity that you'll be is not an occasion and a milestone. Like, you have been working this job a long time. I have known you now for about 15 years. years so we can all feel old. You just look almost exactly the same. But you got there. And it's a day that's been coming for a while. And so I think I speak for a lot of people who are here and say, congratulations on that, brother. Thank you. I, you know, I don't think about it

that way. Like you said, like, yeah, knowing you for 15 years, like that's a thing. But I don't think, and I'm sure you can speak to this. Like, you don't do the job thinking, oh, man, one day I'm going to wind up at this place. You're just trying to do the job. and honestly make some change. You know what I mean? And then if something comes up and comes your way, all right, cool. So not that those things have converged

and I'm going to be covering like the biggest story in the Eastern Conference for most of the season. Like, that's pretty cool. So that right there, that gets us to where this season is interesting because we have, I think we'll get to the loaded west a little bit later

because there's a lot going there. But it is the zombie east, right? This is, I know Stephen A got some hell for the way that he put this, but it is the truth. Jason Tatum will not be playing for the Boston Celtics. Tyrese Halliburton will not be playing for the Indiana Pacers. It looks as though there are two teams who can go to the finals from the East, the Knicks and the CASS. That's what it looks like.

That's part of why this Yonis thing is kind of interesting with Milwaukee. Like, yeah, they've made their changes, whatever, but how could you look at the rest to this conference and say that Milwaukee isn't a couple of bounces away from a deep playoff run, right? Like anything can happen right now. It feels like in the zombie east, but you're going to be front and center with the Knicks. You're going to be spending your time with what I think. I feel like this is as interesting a story as we've had in the NBA truly in years because it's more, it's one thing when the Knicks are good. It's another thing when Nix fans come to have expectations. And I think that they had tamped their expectations

for a long time, doing their best to be reasonable and appreciative since they have been sorry for so long. But tell Nick's fans why they should not think this team can make the NBA finals and you can't. There's no plausible argument for it. Yeah, I think it's one of those things like as if you've been flying Spirit Airlines for about 20 years and then you get a taste of that new life and then you get a taste of that first class life. You ain't even trying to go back to Delta comfort. You're trying to stretch your legs out. You know what I mean? You're trying to engage in that.

Yes, I would like a glass of red wine before we take off. Like, that is where the Nick fans are. And the fascinating thing for me, Bo is this is the first year in a very long time that the Knicks can disappoint people. Everything else has been about hope and maybe some bounties going right. right. Like, even 1999, that was about bounces going right. Like, and I wrote about it in one of those preview blurbs that we're doing. This is the first time since 1993, since Michael Jordan said I'm done with this,

that the Nick fans can say, oh, we expect to be playing in June. Like, it's been 30 freaking years and on top of that. And this makes things even more complicated, I would say, for Nick. players. The first three-game losing streak, you're going to have everybody working a trade machine saying, okay, now what permutation can we get to get Janus here? Nah, does that mean McHale Bridges and O'G. Anobie and Pix, or does that mean Carl Towns? And you're going to have everybody studying tax aprons and second aprons and becoming a capologist the first three-game losing streak. Or you just lose three out of five games in November. Like, that's what, that's the level of

expectation. It's not going to be, let's hurry up and get to June, right? Because that's a lot of the time. That's where Boston is. That's where Boston was last year is. Let's hurry up and get to June. That's where Denver was a couple of years ago. It's hurry up and get to June and they didn't get there. For the Knicks, it's going to be worldwide panic. The first time Mike Brown does something that Tom Thibodeau wouldn't have done. It's going to be worldwide panic the first time Jalen Brunson dribbles the ball into dust a little too long. It's going to be worldwide panic the first time. Carl Towns gets three files in the first quarter because he wants to play the bongos.

It's going to be panic. And I don't know if people are built for the panic. Well, here's the other part of that. Because all those things you describe in some form of fashion are probably going to happen. Because one thing that's also happening with all these guys, Towns is in year two being with the team. I guess this is year four for Brunson of being with the team. And look, I can't explain to you how popular Jalen Brunson is in New York City. Like just to people listen, it's not, he's that guy.

But at the same time, he is not, and he is an imperfect player. He is a flawed player. And in ways where at some point, exceeding expectation wears off because that is what had exceeded expectation. He had exceeded expectation. now there's more expectation, and now they go look at you just a little bit differently. I mean, it happened to LeBron James, right? Like, this can happen to anybody.

Carl Anthony Towns in year two, some of those imperfections that we've known about, they'll be closer to the surface. And then the places where those two guys' imperfections are the same. Their two best players don't guard people, right? This is a very savvy crowd in New York City, right? Like, this fan base is, they, They understand process, right? You're not just going to, you're not going to get over on them simply with results.

They understand process. And there's a whole generation of people who are too young to have ever seen Nick's fans really at it. Because they haven't even gotten to what makes it funny to us, which is how little it used to take to be like, I don't know. What do you think? What do you think? What do you think? And you got a little bit of it last year and it felt a little bit silly, a tiny bit silly. But a team who's second best player was what?

Miles Turner had a real chance that went in a championship last year. Right. So how can you tell them that they don't have a chance to win a championship? Which means we should win a championship. When it's your team,

you don't just say chance. The chance becomes should. And I think in Cleveland, they're probably feeling the same way, but this is going to be louder because it's New York. No, I differ with you a little bit. I think for Cleveland,

they got to get to the finals. I think for the Knicks, for some weird reason, and maybe it's just because they saw the Pacers, whose second best player was Pascal Siaco and Miles Turner. Oh, I got to see a second. Yeah, we got to win it. Like, the thing is, you saw the, if you consider the Pacers to be a flawed team or not a traditional looking contender,

take the Oklahoma City Thunder to within 24 minutes of a ring, because remember, the Pacers led that game seven at the half, even though we all knew what was coming. after that, the expectation is going to be, if you get to the finals, you're going to win? Like, it's not like as great as Oklahoma City is. And me and you have been on this and you have been there longer than I have. I don't know if Oklahoma City has reached a point of if they're going against the New York Knicks where Nick fans are going to look at them with the respect of, oh, they're the defending champion.

They're a machine. We can't beat them. I don't think Nick fans operate with that level of clearheadedness and rationale. Like, I'll tell you a quick story. I think it was two years ago, a group of friends and I went to New York for a friend of mine's 40th birthday. So we just all flew in, mobbed out for a couple days. And they were like, okay, let's get tickets to a Knicks game.

And we happened to come up on something. It was a Tuesday night in December, bow, against the Toronto Raptors. And there was a possession in the second quarter where everybody in Madison Square garden was on their feet. It wasn't a big possession. It wasn't any, it wasn't nobody on no hot streak. It was just the second quarter. Like eight minutes left and they got on their feet and we met up at halftime and they was like, yo, these people are crazy. Like they're into it in a different way. And we're talking about basketball fans from Detroit who know what serious basketball looks like and they're like, no, these people are different here. So not that you have the red carpet

it laid out, right? And you've got this new coach and you've got continuity and you feel like you have the cheat code over the Cleveland Cavaliers because you feel like you're bigger, stronger, tougher than them, which is what Nick fans think about every single team that they've ever had that's been worth a damn. There's not just the expectation that they're going to get to the finals. That feels like there's this demand to win. Because do you feel like, because you're there and I'm not? And once I get there, I get a better feel for it. Do you feel like Nick fans will be happy at the end of this? If by June 15th, they lose in five games in the NBA finals,

whether it's to Oklahoma City or Denver or Houston, or will there be like, oh, man, we blew it? Now, I think the finals will go a long way. Like, I do not believe that if the Knicks make it to the finals, then New York City's going to be like, all right? That's a start. No, man, they're going to be in these streets. They're going to be thrilled if they make it to the final.

I think exceeding what it was last year, I was surprised how many people thought that they should have been better last year. But any explanation that you heard honestly made perfect sense. The decision to move on from Tibbs, I think, is, I mean, how often is Jim Dolan had the bright idea? Because this is a Jim, this is a Jim Dolan idea, right? And so do you trust him? But I want to go to Cleveland since we've mentioned them, and I think they matter a lot in the course of this discussion.

The Cavs and the Knicks have the same thing. Their dude that has the ball is not tall, right? Now, who would you rather have? Donovan Mitchell or Jalen Brunson? I think what the accolades or what the playoff bonifides have been, right? Jalen Brunson's playoff bona fides have exceeded Donovan Mitchell's, right? Yeah, I mean, it's an interesting question because obviously

before Taylor Brunson got there, there's no, I mean, Nick's fans wanted Donovan Mitchell specifically. But I think you could go either way, right? Like, I think you're at a very similar space with those guys. What the calves have that makes them so interesting is where are we in the assent of Evan Mowgli, who is an incredible talent and an incredible player and just not that heavy, not that strong. He's not going to anchor you inside, but he can do a range of things that somebody his size rarely can do. But it's part of why they still feel like they are

a guy short because he is great, but I don't think, I still don't think we think he's that guy. And I don't know if that guy is in the cards for him. Is he, is he a guy that's a high end second best player on a championship team? Or is he going to become a guy that could be that dude? Or is, is Donovan Mitchell good enough? and what he does to allow Mowbly to simply be who he is. It's funny. It's two points that I think I want to make.

And I'm curious on the second one. But for the first one, if Evan Mowgli controls a game defensively, does defense still matter enough to you where really great defensive player, focal point-ish on offense equals dominant player, best player on the championship team? You know, like, does that,

Does that one side of the floor mean as much as it did 20 years ago or has the access till so much that defense accounts for maybe 30% of a profile? Well, I think you're asking on that is the description that you gave sounded very similar to Kevin Garnett 08 type of situation, anchor of defense guy through whom you could run offense. But yeah, Paul Pierce or Ray Allen. Mm-hmm. is that do the calves have a combination of two that give you that? Keep it in mind, Paul Pierce is what, 6-7, 6-8?

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. It's a week, I say that to say, I think we're at this weird sort of inflection point with the league, where you have great players like Donovan Mitchell and Jalen Brunson, who you're not sure can be the best player on the championship team. And they're, I won't say young, but they're young-ish, right? Like they're not on the older side like a LeBron, a step, a Kevin Durant, players that we don't think can be the best player on a championship team even though they have been.

Right? So you got the younger side. You've got the older side. And even a player like Janice, where if Janice decides to make a move, I feel like he has to go to a situation where all of the weight is not on him to be the best player for 36 minutes a night on both ends of the floor. I just don't think his body can hold up that way. So similarly, whether it's Jalen Brunton, Donovan Mitchell, Evan Mobley, the question becomes, it's not necessarily one. It's can you do it for a stretch of time?

And is there someone else playing alongside you that can do it for a stretch of time? The only person that we really don't have to ask that question about, I guess there's two, is Yolkich and Shay. But everybody else, it's going to be there's questions. Yeah, look, this is an era of you can do a lot with an imperfect team. Oklahoma City is still an imperfect team because our question was, are they sturdy enough, right? Like, you know, a little bit thin.

I think Hardinstein helped a lot, but we saw the craziness that Dagonow was doing, pulling him in and out of starting line during the finals, right? So even they weren't sure that what he was providing was enough. But what's good about them is great. And they have a top three player in the NBA, right? Okay, cool. but that team, there's no way in the world that 15 years ago,

that Pacer's team is a team that goes to the NBA finals. No. Like, it doesn't. We would have had a number of reasons that we could have ticked off why that team can't go to the finals, right? What they don't have or so forth and so on. That's not how it works anymore, man. Like, you're going to tick off those things about teams

and then there's a good chance they're going to get there because you can't build that the highest end of team is really, really hard to build. Presti seems to be the only guy that's figured it out. Yeah. I mean, I guess it remains to be seeing what Houston does, right? Because Houston is kind of one of those teams that is legit sort of coming and they still got draft capital and they got so many young players that you're trying to figure out where they sit. My thing with Indiana last year was they beat, every team that they beat had NBA finals

expectations. Like once you play, you played Milwaukee, they have finals expectations. With a healthy Damien Lillard, you played the Cavs. They had finals expectations. By the time the Knicks got to the Eastern Conference finals, they have finals expectations. So once you beat the Celtics and you beat the Celtics pretty decisively, Tatum or no Tatum, Nick fans had the right to feel like, okay, we're going to the finals, right? And that's in a weird way for them to have beaten everybody that's been in front of them, and to have been healthy-ish up until, what was that game four of the finals or whatever it was when Halliburton first got hurt, and then what happened in game seven, happened in game seven.

I would have been really fascinated to see what that team came back and looked like this year. Because I still don't know if they would be regular season, 60 win, we're running away and hiding from the rest of the conference, as much as they would have been, okay, we're going to win 50, 52 games. and then we're just going to be comfortable playing against anybody in any building for the final. Almost in a way, in a very weird way. The last team I could think of in that way was probably the Rockets, like the Hakeem Rockets, except Tyreece ain't no, Hakeem. It's just that we have the confidence to go into any building, your building at any point, and steal a game or two.

Right. Now, let me ask this because I think this is the next interesting question with the East. because, again, I don't think we've, the Celtics will be interesting without Tatum because, I mean, they still do have Jaylon Brown. Yes. Jaylon Brown is a finals MVP. Like, Jalen Brown, are the Celtics good enough to win a championship

without Jason Tatum? I think that's a lot to ask. Can you be really good with Jalen Brown as your number one? We're about to find out. You know, like that's, that I think will be interesting, but I don't think we think of them as a contender. I think that we will probably come,

be at the end of the season with the East and look out and say who was the team that made the leap, right? Like it feels like Detroit last year made a jump, but I'd say short of a leap. Orlando also feels like a team that might be capable of a leap this year. Do you see it for you, though? I can see, I have questions about Orlando. Just because your two best players, Wagner and Bancaro,

play kind of sort of the same position and occupy the same spots on the floor. floor. And with young players to me, if you're both two high volume scores who both need the ball and you haven't spent, they didn't spend any time on the floor together at all last year because of the very weird injuries that they had. So now everybody's looking and saying, well, you add Desmond Bain, you just add water, you just needed shooting and you add all that to all the other things that you get, like the limp and the defense and everything else. And it's magically going to add, I need to see it. I'm not saying it's not going to happen. I'm not saying. It's not going to

happen. I'm saying for that team, I need to see those two questions answered, like, how does Ban Carroll and Wagner figure it out together on the floor at the same time? Because it's easy to dominate the ball when the other one ain't there. You know what I mean? It's easy for you to be the guy when the other guy is sitting down. So that to me, now, Detroit is a more interesting or fascinating thing because so much of this is internal improvement, right? Like, yeah, Malik Beasley had one of the most prolific three-point shooting seasons in the history of the NBA, and the feds are looking at him right now.

Can't really do much about that in the meantime. You know what I'm saying? Like, you got the fans. You got them boys on you. They watch it. They watch it. They watch it. And ain't nobody giving you a job.

Everywhere you go, the feds is. Feds watch. They're trying to bring that to work. So the question becomes, is Kay Cunningham going to take the leave? Is a sartime? who might be the best athlete in the league that's not named a man, Thompson. You know what I mean?

Like, take the leap. And I tend to believe in internal jumps more than we make an acquisition. And that's just a league-wide thing for me, not a Detroit thing or whatever, because they could fall to the back of the pack or they could be better and not win as many games. But it's a, A, do you believe in Kay Cunningham as an MVP candidate as a guy, like the guy, if you do, that's why you believe in Detroit. If you believe in things sight unseen, then you're saying, I believe in the Orlando Magic.

And I think those are two totally different questions to ask, but one that both teams can fairly answer. Now, let's go to a more pessimistic space. What in the world do you think is going to happen in Philadelphia this year? Because it doesn't sound like Joelle Embedde, like it sounds over. Did you not expect when you saw Joel Embed

with his MVP season. Did it not look like we were watching the best as he was ever going to be? Health-wise, production-wise, everything. That's just what it looked like and felt like in that moment. It just felt like everything was coming together, right? Paul George, sneaky old, right?

And coming off of a procedure over the summer. Year 16. And he's 10 years removed from one of the most debilitating injuries we've ever seen on national television. The fact that he's been able to come back from that injury, I think we almost been desensitized from that. Like, you get, like, the amount of endurance

that it takes to fight back from being hurt, I think we don't highlight enough, right? But done is done, or close to cooked is close to cooked. And whenever I hear someone say, player X is in the best shape of his life, I almost think of that one fight What was that? Muhammad Ali against Larry Holmes when he said I'm in the best shape of my life

and if you've never seen the fight don't ever watch the fight because you don't want to watch your hero not have it no more like that could be where we're at for Philly it could just be on Tyrese Maxie. I feel like they're over under it's like 42 or 43.

Not that I'm into like the Vegas stuff but I think that is enormously optimistic for them. I would be very leery of betting the over. They won 24 games last year. And yet, everybody was out at a point in time. I like VJ. H.com. I like him. The rookie. I like him. You're going to like him, Bo. Tell me this, though. How many games do you think Joel are going to play this year? Do you think he plays 40? Give me half, Eddie.

Yeah. I say, do we think it's 40? And what 40 are we talking about? Not going to be the back-to-backs. It's not going to be. You know what I mean? It's not going to be the game. And I don't know how many back-to-backs they have. But they're going to have to be, even best case scenario, you're going to have to be so very careful with him. Like, if he's not hurt, you're afraid that he's going to get hurt. If he's nicked up, you're afraid that it's going to get worse. If he's hurt, you're going to try to slow play it. There's no instance where with Joelle and Bede that you can breathe, that you can exhale, that you can feel good. And we're not assigning blame. That's just sometimes you got bad body and some bad. bad breaks, that's just how it goes, but that's just where he is in his career. And he's starting

a super, super duper max contract. How much money do you think they owe him? I was looking at this a couple weeks. I feel like he's making like 56 this year, maybe like 240? Ballpark, yes. Okay. They got four more years of paying him. And it's in the, he's got a player option for 2028, 2029 of $67 million that you can go ahead and write down right now. He will be picking up

that $67 million in three years. Oh, that's already picked up. Already. But coming up next, we're going to talk about what's going on in the West, which is, a lot of good basketball teams over there.

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I don't, I haven't even bothered to look at what the Thunder did because the thunder has a million players. I don't, like, I don't, I don't know what you could tell me that would matter. The hope is, oh, Jalen Williams now starting the season because of an injury. Okay. That's, that's the hope. You still got Chey doing what he's going to do. What if Chet makes the leap this year?

What if, it's on the board? You know what I mean? And not like the leap as in, because I think. felt like he made leaps during the finals like oh he recognizes what's in front of him him going like the matchup between him and pascal siacom like two similarly built players even though chet is you know extra skinny on top of skinny but i feel like that's a guy where going through nine months of basketball even though he got heard at the beginning of the year but let's just fall in tints of purpose to say nine months of basketball still standing

at the end of it and growing so much there's nothing but space of in front of him. Like, he looking at Big Vic like, yeah, you may be the future, but I'm right now. Like, this is what this is about. Our question really of Chet coming out of college was, can this guy be a franchise player? And I think that it's still fair to ask the question of can he be a franchise player? Except the thunder are in a different situation with him than any of us truly expected because while you are asking, can Chet be a franchise player? It doesn't matter. They already got one of those. So what we're talking about now is can Chet be supersized role player? So like where we're asking, if you're lucky at this point, you want Chet to become Evan Mold.

Right? Like the combination of skills that we talk about having or what we think about is Chet is a guy that can face the basket, but can anchor your defense, can. Can block shots, you know, all those things. Though I think we expect more of Chet as a shooter than we expect of Mowley. But still, if he could affect the games like Evan Mowgli can affect games and they have Shay, do what are we doing here? What are we keeping them out of this? Shee, it's like the Jalen Brunson and all those guys, cool.

What if they were 6'6? Because they're not 6'6, but that guy's 6'6 doing those things. He's 6'6 and you can't get a feel. for his rhythm. You know what I mean? It's like playing off key. Like you're just trying to catch it. You're trying to catch the rhythm of it.

And Shay is a rhythm player in his own head. And by the time you catch the rhythm, he pump fakes and you go flying into his shoulder and he's going to the line. And the next time he does it, he's setting his feet and then busting one in your eye. Like there is, I don't know if there's a way to guard him

without giving up something and saying, you know what, we're just going to give you the file. We're going to be okay with maybe beating you up and maybe just throwing defend defenders at you and hoping and praying that someday you get tired. But hey, I don't ever see that man sweat. I see that man sweat on 2K more

and I see the man sweat in real life and everything just looks so easy. But when I called him Slow Penny last year, people thought it was an insult. I'm like, no, that is an ultimate compliment that I am giving that young man. Like, he is at a place where, peak of his powers, who going to stop me?

And, you know, he, he engaged in some, in some BLT. You know what I'm saying? Them Bush League tactics. Like, there's some chicanery. There's a little chicanery. There's a little, little, little merchant, uh, merchant. I don't even know if that's a word. But, you know, he'd be trying it, right?

You know how I feel about that. He'd be trying. By the way, I'm looking at these numbers from last year. The thunder in the regular season had a plus 13 point different. differential. Nobody else in the West was plus five. Right? Like, think about this. The Timberwolves got to the conference finals against the Mavericks in 2024. And you're like, hey, they're almost there.

But they wouldn't because the Thunder, and I guess, look, the Thunder had finished number one in the West the year before in the regular season. So it's not, this isn't like what happened with the Warriors. We were like, yo, I can't believe. It came out of nowhere, right. I guess I see why they fired Mark Jackson, right? isn't exactly that, but it does feel like the thunder opened up a gap, right? And I love Minnesota. You know, I'm here for Ant. I'm here generally for the way they play. It feels like there's a giant

gap. It feels like the West is loaded with giant gap. Like maybe the Rockets, right? And we're going to see what this version of Kevin Durant offers them because what they didn't have was a guy to go get shots. Well, now they have the all-time go-get shot guy. Denver made some moves where to me they feel like the most logical number two, in large part because they have who I believe to be the best player on Earth. Yes. The Lakers put a pin in that.

We just have to, I feel like all things L.A. we need to put a pin in. We also, by the way, have a full year of Stefan Jimmy, though a full year Jimmy is probably going to be 60 games, but we did not see the Warriors last year as constructed now. Who knows with the Grizzlies, though the question with them is going to be,

like, is John Morant still bouncy? Do we know that? Dallas. Actually very interesting. Point Cooper. I had completely forgotten that guy played on that team now. Point Cooper. Point Cooper flag.

6-8. Athletic. And we ain't even get to Victor. Like, the West is wild. Every night. Every. The only thing the NBA would be asking for is like, can y'all play more of your games in the Eastern?

time zone so we can get all of this stuff. You know what I mean? Like that's, that is the only thing that goes against this. Well, hold on right fast. Let me say this before I forget. In looking at the teams that didn't make the play in, young Ace Bailey has looked pretty good in the clips that I have seen in this preseason. He's a boomer buster, but he has looked pretty good. In shape Zion, I am kidding. I haven't, I haven't sold all.

my stock. I haven't sold all my stock. You got Victor, you got, well, I guess Devin Booker all alone down there in Phoenix. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. He got Dylan Brooks, who's more likely to bite his jersey than, you know what I mean? Like when the, one of the kindergarten kids that, that bite your coat, you know what I mean? Yes. And I think Portland turned out better last year than I expected. I just like, really, the West top to bottom. No nights off. No nights off. That's why I wonder what the gap is going to be between not six and seven, like playing and not playing. What's the gap going to be between six and three?

What's the gap going to be between three and one? In Oklahoma City, and we've given them all the platitudes and respect, they could be better than what they were last year just off the fact of being a champion and when nowhere near 60 games this year or when low 60s. And not because they're not better. not because they took their foot off the gas, but you got to tell me where you definitively just see easy wins

where you only got to play 35 of the 48 minutes and you run away and hide. Like, that's what Golden State used to do in the first two years of Kevin Durant. We're going to play hard for 12 minutes and we're going to blow you out the water and you'll spend the rest of the game playing catch-up. There's no team that you're going to do that to.

Like even the clippers, the clippers of Kauai Lennon, who's had his name and a bunch of different things this summer, obscuring the fact that he had a healthy summer this summer. He's not rehabbing. He's playing basketball. You know, like all these, everything has matriculated to the Western Conference. Like, we don't think of Minnesota in the same tier, but they've been to the conference finals two years in a row.

And Ant Man says, oh, yeah, I'm going to stop being Clay Thompson this year. I'm going to get to the MIDI. It's freaky. freaky dog is freaky i can't wait let me say this about the clippers the clippers are old but the clippers are deep well they're deep but can you be deep and old when you're going to count on Brad being hurt you're going to kind on Chris Paul being hurt like the player you count on being there every night is probably Jim Hardin right you count on Hardin being there every night you count on Zubots being there every night like like it's a weird high

of players that I wouldn't want to play on a nightly basis. Like that is, that part to me, Bo is fascinating because I still think Talu is top the bottom, the best coach in basketball. Like, I have seen nothing that leads me to believe otherwise. But we need to talk, like you glossed over it a little bit. We need to talk about Denver because they've shored up some stuff. Yes. And if all you needed was a yokeage and stuff and yon,

Yokich and reliability. They took the champs to seven last year. Yeah. They took them to seven. They took the champs to seven last year. And I have long been short of an apologist, but definitely a Michael Porter defender. Mm.

But that's a broken down body. Like, I think that we don't talk nearly enough about how kind of amazing it is that Porter's been capable of doing whatever it is that he has been able to do up until this point. Moving him and bringing in Cam Johnson, you might have basically brought in

a more durable version of the same player, given where Porter's body is at this point. And it's enabled you to do other things in the meantime because he's $17 million cheaper and the nuggets are not the team that's going to be going deep into the aprons. It allows you to bring in a Tim Hardaway. You know, that doesn't seem like, oh, my God, such an impactful move.

But you know what he is? He's a guy that can play off in the third. Kola Yokic and shoot a lot of threes. And that's all you really need. Like if Cam Johnson and Michael Porter, Jr. are similar archetypes and maybe you're going to say Michael Porter Jr. is a better player. If he's not enabled to be that, the structure of the team doesn't say Michael Porter

tonight is your night to cook as the third best player, then it doesn't matter to me that he's a better player. Are you the better fit for what we are trying to do in the construct of how this team is built, Cam Johnson, than Michael Porter Jr.? And the answer might be yes, and we got resources that enables us to do other things to fill in the blanks. Because once again, we only need so much around Yokic. And they have a passable big man behind him with Valchunis, which has not been the case. Oh, no.

Here's the other thing I want to make. Not next, not behind Yokic. Next to Yokish, think of the size that's in the Western Conference when you go to how tall the Houston Rockets are, to how tall the Oklahoma City Thunder are, to even in Minnesota, like Julius Randall is just six, nine, but he played like bigger, he plays up. Right.

Like you need to be able to have multiple big men, not just for like the depth, but you got to have multiple big men so they can play together. Yoke's might be playing some four this year. That's true. That's true. Now that gets us also to the Rockets.

You mentioned how tall they are. I mean, they're basically trying out three closing up to seven footers on the front line, right? Four. Yeah, got Stephen Adams still there too. They got four. They got tall guys. I think it's safe to say the question with the Rockets is,

so what's this Reed Shepherd thing going to look like? Because they were talking real good about him in the preseason last year, and then he never got to play. Well, that was the hold up with all of their depth and youth and everybody else. Like, think of what they gave up to get Kevin Durant. Like, maybe they should have gave up more, but you still gave up the likes of, of Jalen Green and Dylan Brooks

and you still feel like you have a pretty deep team, right? Like you can look at a man Thompson and say, maybe the best place for you to be is on the ball because you're not a good shooter, but you put so much pressure on the defense, rim pressure, like drawing two and kicking pressure that we want to make the game easier for the Kevin Durant on this team. Like the one thing I don't want to see if I'm Houston

is Kevin Durant at the time. at the top of the key staring down the barrel of a defense 1-5. Like, as well as he can do that, he just had a birthday. He just turned 36? Like, I don't know if that is the best use. I think it's 7.

Is he 37? I think it's 7. I believe he's an 80-a-er. Yeah. Oh, once again, we've been saying Kevin the Redd older than you think for a long time. Yes, we have. And even I'm toned off at 37.

I thought he was 36. Like, that's where we are now. Hold on, then you're 19. Whoa. He did come in in 07. Year 19. He's his old. I mean, he's out, Al Horford.

Like, think of how old we think of Al Horford being. Same draft. Wow. The Greg Oden, Al Horford, Jeff Green. Jeff, he's still in the league. Still in the league. On that team. You're like, here's the thing.

Do you trust the Rockets to be healthy enough for 82 games that Kevin Durant can have the legs on the back end to care? Like that's the one question that you don't have necessarily about Minnesota, that you don't have about Oklahoma City is, does our best player have to be upright at the end and not burnt out so that he can be the best version of himself when it's game five. of a playoff series, and I need you to go get a bucket. Right. That's the question. Right. Now,

what do you think is possible for the Lakers this year? I think a lot of things of like, anything is possible. Like, if you tell me, if we were to fast forward and just drop me into February 7th or April, whatever the trade deadline is,

and LeBron ain't on the team, I'm like, yeah, something probably happened. Or if you drop me that that way and you tell me that the Lakers are fourth in the West, because Luca's having a year and LeBron's having a year and Vanderbilt is healthy. And DeAndre Aiton is rim running big, eating off of, in Austin Reeves, who plays really well when he's the second option. Statistically, he plays very well when he's the second option.

I don't know how much that translates into winning, but he can perform well. so many things are on the board for the Lakers, Bo, that nothing would shock me. MVP Luca would not shock either one of us, right? I mean, MVP Luca, he's got to be the on-the-board favorite, right? No, I think it's still Yolkich. I'm only saying that because we, you and I both been watching this game for a long time.

We're now old enough to say that, right? we'd unseen this season happen many times before. He'll never be in shape like this ever again. Charles Barkley, 93. Shaquille O'Neill 2000. He'll never be in shape quite like this again. Yeah. I mean, the Chuck MVP was one of those weird things

where it wasn't his best season. Right? His best season might have been a couple years before, but being traded, being on the Olympic team. Like, he had the push. of everything. You also say something like four or five assist the game. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It was a monster. He was a, look, because Kevin Johnson missed something like 30 games and Chuck had to like step in and do a bunch of stuff. And that was the Richard Dumas year where Richard Dumas looked like the future. And that is the forgotten what if. Oh my God. He was so, he was so freak. Like him, Roy Tarpley of the Dallas Mavericks, Roy was the future. But we saw a lot more Roy.

Richard Doom was put up one year. Yes. And then that was it. Never again to be seen. Never again. Like the Shaq MVP where it's funny, I'm one of those, I'm not a Shaq trooper, but I'm one of those people that's like, yeah, Shaq got the amount of MVP's that he probably deserved.

And it was that one. It just might have happened to be the greatest tour de force one season thing that we've ever seen. Maybe that's where Luca lands this year because it. If nothing else, Beau, he doesn't have to worry about to start the season. Remember, it's going to be a few weeks before LeBron is reevaluated, not returned, right? So you don't know how long this lasts. But Luca starts off the season as the number one guy where everybody knows that this is the pecking order,

that we're going to go as he goes, and then LeBron will come in as he comes in and work his way through whatever version that is. Luca can set the tone in a way that he might not have been able to if LeBron were there. That's not to say the Lakers will be a better team without LeBron. That might be ridiculous. But for Luca himself to set the table, this is possibly the best scenario for him to set the table and be a 35, 10, 10 MVP type of candidate. While playing for the Lakers and don't let them overperform. Ooh, baby.

Right? I mean, that's how you, that's, you get this really about overperforming. That's the biggest part, exceeding our expectation. Totally on the board. And you kind of touched on it. The next part, what is this year going to be? Because it normally ain't this much drama with LeBron to start the year. We've already got the word out through McMinneman of he's going to be watching,

seeing what the Lakers do and then make his decisions. And I'm just trying to figure out where this leverage is that he and Rich have. The leverage probably lies in the Lakers don't want to egg on their face with a legend leaving them. Like, I think you look at it and say, if LeBron leaves the Lakers and does not retire, a Laker looks bad for LeBron. If the Lakers view this as LeBron does not retire, a Laker looks bad for us and our lore and our brand and everything that we've been for 50 years, that's a stain on them. that's how I think the Lakers in the Laker brand and the Jeannie Bus brand feel about that.

Well, they do feel like they're the place that people stay, right? Yes. But you don't leave the Lakers once you get there. They may send you on your way, but you don't leave them. But if he leave and go outside, because going outside is on the board. Now what is going outside mean? Is he? Yeah, you and I talked about this on the phone and we did not.

really come to a resolution on this. So for example, somehow Kobe Bryant, who was hurt and bad for his last three years, managed to not go outside, but it was because he stayed on the Lakers team that really didn't have much expectation.

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar did not go out sad, but I think it's because they did a farewell tour. But he was, that last year, Kareem was not a great. When people talk about, well, imagine what all the rings with Kareem, 1988, Kareem was not, you know, Kareem of 1980.

The last Kareem was 1985. Yes. Yes. And even then, that was for the finals. Right. Like we were still a decline version. But Kareem did not go outside. Dirk Novinsky did his farewell tour, did not go outside. Dway did a bit of a tour. He basically did a tour himself. Did not go outside. Whether or not you go outside has a lot to do with how you calibrate our expectations going in to whatever the last year. is going to be, right? And what the expectations are of that team.

If your thing is, I'm still looking for a team to win a championship and then you get there and you're not a championship contributor, that's when we start approaching the possibility of going outside. Well, the weird thing for LeBron sits in the place of, A, and this second tax apron world where, or salary cap apron world where he's not going to be taking pay cuts. And nor should he. Like he's been underpaid for the vast majority of his career.

I would never, you know, ask somebody to take a pay cut. But if you're going to take up 50 plus a million dollars in salary cap space, how good of a team can you be with that, with a 42, 41, whatever it is, however old he's going to be when he gets to that point, type of block on your roster. Can there be a better player who's not making that level of money? and where is that?

Like, here's the question. Is there going to be a mad dash to New York City next year? Is it going to be a mad dash between LeBron, James, and Janus? Let's see who gets there first. If you are the Knicks, why would you do that? Like, as long as LeBron

is a guard in anybody, why would you do that? I don't disagree with you as a whole, and it depends on what happens this year. If the Knicks underachieve this year, anything can be on the board. That is true. Yeah, we are, no, Yon, here's the thing.

The Knicks are in this weird position where they realize Yonis only wants to go to them right now. Right. Right. Or as of August or July, whenever the exclusive, I said this the other day, exclusive negotiating periods have only happened when we're talking about billionaires

buying teams from each other. Not a player going somewhere. Exclusive negotiating periods. What the hell what does that mean? Like, exclusive. You know what that was? That was Nico Harrison and Rob Polinka last exclusive. That means they don't nobody else know that we're talking, right?

That's a secret-ass relationship, right? That's what that is. But once you get past the first game of the season, everything's open. Because all Yonis has to do is get to the end of this year, and everything's on the board for him as far as where he might want to go because the whole league is now his. oyster. Maybe New York was just the one place you wanted to go this past July. And if you're the Knicks, do you want to take that chance of having the whole board open? Or do you want to look at the window now and say, hey, man, if we underachieving come February, do y'all want to see if we can make this happen? Let me tell you, Janus, to get Janus, I feel like you got to trade

Carl, but to get Janus, you fix a lot of problems, right? It's, it's, there's, Janelle doesn't guard anybody. Okay, well, we've got this. this guy back here. Because the Knicks can't take in a dollar more, right, than what they send out because they're in second apron territory. The bucks are not. So they can take in more, not a hell of a lot more, but they can take in more, which means the Knicks can send out more.

In theory, you could send out bridges plus O.G. Anobie or whatever, you know what I mean? Some iteration. They just don't have the picks in the capital of the picks. And if you're the bucks, do you want a 30 plus year old Carl Towns who's had knee issues? Are we old enough that Carl Towns is 30-something years old? I think Carl is 30 or about to be 30. This is year 11.

Year 11. Everybody getting, I mean, we ain't getting old, but a lot of these young dudes is. A lot of these young dudes are getting old, man. And a lot of the dudes younger than them are having old people. people injuries. Yeah, I mean. They keep telling me Jason Tannum out here, Duncan. I'm like, take your time, young fella, take your time.

Ain't no rush. There ain't no rush. You ain't got to be back this year. I think he's going to play this year. I know, and I'm saying, take your time, yo fella, take your time. I mean, here's the thing. You can't tell Jason Tatum to not push his rehab, right? I agree.

But they can tell him that we're not going to play you this year. Like, anytime somebody they're like, yo, he came back faster from this injury, than anybody else has. It remind me when Jerry Rice came back for that ACL tear after three months

and then he got his knee broke. Mm-hmm. I mean, and Jerry Rice is a different level of freakish athlete. That man was running up hills the day after they won

the Super Bowl. You know what I mean? Like, like he was different. He ran up that hill this morning. He's still waiting on the... You think Jerry's still waiting on the call? I think Jerry just run up that hill.

Like, The year they came back from that strike, I was talking to Michael Smith once. It was that year Jerry came, the NFL had that strike in 87. And Jerry Rice had, I want to say 21 touchdown catches in 12 games when they came back.

Because, you know, strike. People think it ain't going to come in no time soon. They out here doing whatever. I'm like, Jerry Rice was out there doing every day. The same thing he did today. And Michael Smith going to run that hill. I said, run that hill. Y'all think shit sweet.

This thing goes in any day. Nah, I'm gonna be out here doing whatever. Y'all, they go catch me, catch me slipping. Jerry Rice was 40 years old with a head full of potentially prosthetic dreadlocks running up that hill. Man, look, now Jerry, now do we consider Jerry Rice going outside with the Seahawks?

Or do people not remember Jerry Rice as a Seahawk? I don't think that people quite remember it. It's a little different with a football player than it is. with like a baseball or a basketball player. Yeah, because it's like, nobody gets to go out on their own turns at football, really. That's just not, it was amazing

that Jerry could still be going, right? But if LeBron out here are looking bad and look bad, if he does, it's because he's old. Yeah, it's amazing that he's out there. But I don't, what's a Melo show they talk about? I forget what they call the jerseys,

but it's like the ugly jerseys, bad-look jerseys, right? LeBron out here where a Milwaukee Bucks jersey or something like that. It's like, oh, no, brother, no, man. Because they clearly have demonstrated they don't talk to you about trades no more. They just make them.

Well, the thing is, at this point, and this would be a serious question that I would ask LeBron. Short of, I just want to play because I love playing basketball. I like the team. Not even the team. I like the routine of being a basketball player.

I like the schedule. that comes with being a basketball player. Like, you see a lot of athletes have problems once they leave the structure of everything that comes with being an athlete. I feel like that's more football players than basketball players. But maybe that's LeBron's thing.

I don't even know if it's about winning the argument, that mythical argument anymore. I think he believed he's won the argument so there's nothing necessarily for him to prove. I just wonder why is he still doing this? I talk about this. Gilbert Arena starts about on his show all the time, man. It's over, it's over, but hold on as long as you can.

Maybe that's the way LeBron looks at it, but I don't know. I'm amazed he's still going. It's amazing that he's been as good as he has been, but it's going to, you're now going to have complications. Like all these salary caps and all these sports are set up to get high salary old people out of there. Like high salaries, moderate production, the structure is designed to get them out of there for younger and cheaper.

But he's LeBron James. You know, like we, I don't think anybody, the Lakers kind of, you know, Kobe made it easy for them to restart while he was still there and still sell some tickets. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. This is more confounding than any other aging player. Well, we don't know what the standard is. Like, we could measure for every other player to large degree, every other great player of reasonable time. Like when Magic came back, we knew what matters.

was doing. Magic was scratching an itch because he felt like something that had been taken away from him. And magic was productive as all hell on that dog shit Lakers team back then. He was like 16, 7 and 6, right? But we knew what it was. But we knew what it was, right? With Michael, we knew it was, I'm going to play until I can become an owner. I'm just going play these two years and I'm become an owner. And then A. Poland said, no, thank you. Right? Like you could see the finish line and we knew what the finish line was and we knew what the goal was. For LeBron, we don't know what the goal is. And I'm not saying that as a criticism or critique.

No, we just don't know. You just don't know. And he hasn't come out and said it. He's been very, you know, when I go out, I'm going to want a farewell tour and I'm going to let y'all know ahead of time. And then here's the crazy part for me about that commercial or the ad or whatever. and why people were upset. I think, I don't think it was necessarily the part about him parroting the decision and bringing that back into the consciousness.

I think there's a large element, or it felt like there was a large element of people who are waiting for him to go. And that's a different type of feeling than most players who have given as much to the game, who mean as much to the game, who mean as much to the game. as LeBron means to the game. Most people are like, man, cherish these games, cherish these moments. You never know when you're going to see another player like this.

You're not going to see him again, blah, blah, blah. When he came out and did the okey doke, which I'm not sure why anybody believed he was going to make his announcement on Instagram that he was retiring, all right, whatever. But if you believe that and the backlash was, why would he take me for a ride, you had the expectation or even the hope that this was over. Have you ever had a music?

that you love and then one day you just didn't check for them no more. Right? And so it goes in different scales, but like, I love the roots. After like, I guess 2010, was that game theory the one that came out then or whatever? Yeah, after that, I wasn't checking for the next roots album. It's not because I, or a better example. My favorite television show is The Simpsons. Number one, I have not gone out of my way to watch a new episode of The Simpsons in at least

20 years. It had already been on for 20 years. Right. Or damn near, whatever it was. You know what I mean? Right. And if you put the Simpsons on in front of me, I'll probably watch it and enjoy it.

But I'm not checking for new Simpsons episodes anymore. Yeah, that's probably, it's probably like law and order. You know what I mean? Yeah, just like, yo, I'm not checking. I'm not looking for the new. Like, they brought Law & Order back. I ain't trying to see the new. Like, I'm good on that now.

Right. It was great. I enjoyed it. But I'm good on that now. And I do think it's there. I still hate watch Stabler, though. I hate, like, maybe, you know what, maybe people hate watch LeBron.

Maybe that, maybe, maybe it's some element to that. I hate watch Stabler, you know what I mean? I can, I can admit that's a compelling character that, like, he'd be beating up people and he stands for a lot of things that I as a citizen cannot ride with, but I'll hate, I'll hate watch Stabler. You know what I mean? And considering, like, the events of the past day, I cherish the things that I like. I like what I like and I'm okay with liking what I like

and you've given what you've given to the world. It is out there. You can forever go back to it once. It is out there in the world. It's for you to keep it, for you to do whatever you need to do it. So I understand why LeBron may not want to walk away because he may view it similarly to a death.

And on that note, that is Vinny Goodwill. Check him out at ESPN covering the NBA. My brother, I appreciate you. Man, I'm so mad. We couldn't go into craze today. Oh, man, another day, brother. Another day. But ladies and gentlemen, thanks so much for joining us here on the right time.

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