The Ringer NFL Show - Eagles Therapy With Chris Ryan, and What History Says About Trevor Lawrence’s Dynasty Value

Episode Date: February 24, 2021

The Ringer’s Chris Ryan joins to talk about the Eagles in a new segment called Fantasy Therapy. Then we look at the Wentz trade from the Colts' perspective, discuss dynasty rookie drafts, and assess the actual value of a first-round pick. Plus, stick around for a clip from an episode of ‘TV Concierge’ with Craig and Heifetz at the end of the show! You can subscribe to ‘TV Concierge’ here. Fantasy Therapy (1:35) The 2021 Colts (21:54) Dynasty Rookie Draft (31:00) TV Concierge: A Perfect Planet (55:56) Email us! [e-mail] Hosts: Danny Heifetz, Danny Kelly, and Craig Horlbeck Guest: Chris Ryan Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

On today's episode of the Ringer Fantasy Football Show, we've got a new segment called Fantasy Therapy, and we will be joined for the first one with the one and only Chris Ryan, who talks about the Carson Wens trade, but really how it makes him feel. We also break down the Wens trade from the perspective of the cults because everyone just seemed to kind of ignore Indianapolis in this whole thing. And we talk Dynasty Football and what Warren Buffett can tell us

about the value of a first-round pick. Warren, please come on the pod. Also, please email us your feedback on our first year of this show at ringer fantasy football at gmail.com. I believe we have replied to every single person who sent us feedback you have for us in the first year. We don't have an intern. It's really us reading it. And if you have any thoughts on the show or what you like, what could be improved, email us, and we will get back to you. Ringer Fantasy Football at Gmail.com. Stick around for the show.

Welcome to the Ringer Fantasy Football Show. My name is Danny Heifitz. and in a moment I will be joined by Danny Kelly and Craig Krollbeck. We're going to look at the Carson Wend's trade. We're going to discuss the value of first-round picks in Dynasty football. And Craig and I are going to, you know, talk about nature documentaries. It's a whole thing. But first, we are introducing a new segment called fantasy therapy.

I have gone to therapy for years now, and it has brought me great clarity. And so we wanted to share that gift of clarity with others who may need it right now. So without further ado, please step into our office. Welcome to Fantasy Therapy. Chris, it is so nice to have you here. Thanks, Danny. I'm really, I'm feeling a little tender. We understand.

So Chris, we just want to get some housekeeping here. Chris, Ryan, is that how you pronounce it? Yeah, that's the usual way people pronounce it. Okay, wonderful. So I see here that you're from the Philadelphia area. Is that correct? Born and raised in a fair amount. That's right.

Born and, wow, okay. So how long have you been rooting for the Philadelphia Eagles, Chris? My whole life. born and raised by Buddy Buddy Ball. I am a bodybag graduate and yeah just Reggie White, Jerome Brown, Brian Dawkins, Andre Waters, like the Great Eagles defenses and then into the Andy Reid era with Donovan McNabb throwing at guys' ankles for 12 years it seemed like and then obviously the Eagles winning the Super Bowl is the greatest moment of my sports life and probably a top 10 life moment in total. Well that's wonderful. I mean that wasn't too long ago was it. You'd

think. Yeah, you think it seemed like it was yesterday. I, I, uh, I kind of can't believe where we are. Because the big, the big talking point coming out of that Super Bowl, it's not only like what a miracle and what a Cinderella story it was, but how the Eagles were sort of set up for sustainable success and how they had like this core and they had this young quarterback and they had like a culture that was going to be so stable over the next few years. And it turns out that that is not the case. Yeah. So it sounds like it's been a pretty turbulent time for you. I think the big thing you know, to start with is, is, you know, what kind of feelings do you have about this Carson Wentz news? I don't think I ever really had like a really deep emotional attachment to Carson Wentz.

Like I respected the fact that he was a really important part of the Eagles success this season that they won the Super Bowl, if not the ultimate reason that they won the Super Bowl. Obviously, there were a lot of other mitigating factors to that. And I think the thing that made me excited was the idea that he was going to be under team control for a decade to come. That, like, that question that so many teams have to face and, like, look at this season and how many teams are going to switch their starting quarterbacks going into the new season. Like, the Eagles weren't supposed to have to answer that, you know? And so it's not that I'm like, I had a Carson tattoo that I have to get covered up.

It's more just like, I just didn't think that this was going to be a problem. And I cannot let go. So if we're talking about therapy and we're talking about issues that I need to work on, I just don't know if I'm going to be able to trust Howie Roseman again. Because to me, Howie Roseman is the arsonist and the fireman. And that's just not, that's not a workable thing. Like, you can't have the guy who burned your house down and be like, here's how you, here's, here's how we fix this.

Where does Hertz fit into all this? That's, you see... So I actually like Jalen Hertz in, like, the few games I saw him playing. I probably got more jacked up about him than I probably ever did about Carson. And we didn't... Like, they beat a underman Saints team,

and then he kind of regressed a little bit in the last couple of games. And then there was just a disaster the last game this season. So what's it going to take out of Jalen Hertz to really make you feel secure again at the quarterback position? I'm honestly, like, I'm like,

eight and eight would be, would be fine. You know, seven and nine would be fine. Like, just not a disaster season. And that is, like,

I don't think that's asking too much. I think I kind of had growing up for talking about childhood issues, you know, I think Andy Reid lulled me into a false sense of security. It's really tough to, like, you know,

like, we have fans of a bunch of different teams with me here right now. I know. But, like, imagine going 10 and 6 for most of your, life. You know what I mean? You enjoy the life of privilege.

Yeah, we had some rocky years with Rich Cotay, you know what I mean? Like there were some bad days. But for the most part, Andy Reid teams won the NFC East, went to the playoffs. Sometimes like went to the NFC championship, went to the Super Bowl,

and that's how I thought football was supposed to work. I didn't know this could happen. You know what I mean? So to me, getting back to some kind of sense of you tune in on Sunday and there's a like maybe a 50% chance,

if a better than 50% chance that you might win, that would be great. So you just want to be in the game. Mm-hmm. Yeah. You mentioned Howie Roseman before. I did. I was wondering,

when I say that name, what emotions does that invoke? Is it anger? Is it betrayal? I just think that I feel like Batman and he's the Joker. I don't, I just feel like I don't even,

like, I don't know how much, like, forensic accounting week and more, like, there have been so many tell-all articles about whence and the sort of, all the stuff that happens towards the end of there. But to me,

I'm just never going to get over what happened when they were like, let's draft Jalen Hurts. That's a good idea. I love this. What happens if they pick a quarterback with their first pick of the first round? Fine.

Then that is what it is. But to me, the thing that bothers me about that philosophy and this whole, like, the idea, and I know that he says that this has since been taken out of context

or you wish you'd phrased it differently, but this quarterback factory idea and that the Eagles are a quarterback factory. Like, how about the Eagles concentrate in being an NFL team? Like, I hate,

I hate when people are like, I'm going to get into something, but the real interest for me is this secondary purpose of what I'm into. It's like, no, just do the thing, you're the general manager

of an entire football team. So draft a tackle or draft a defensive back or draft, like a draft Justin Jefferson if he's there. How about that? You could have done that.

But instead, it's like, no, no, no. We got to just keep drafting these assets to keep flipping them because we're the quarterback factory, and what we can do is we can always have a guy back up the starter, but then we can trade him for a second

or trade them for a third or we can trade them for something we need. It's like maybe just make the football team good in the first place. Along those lines, what comes to mind when I say the names JJ or Sega Whiteside and Jalen Rager? Danny, honestly, man, you're the draft Nick.

What I do is I go and I look at, mocks from that year. I look at who's drafted after those guys. I look at the guys we missed out on, the guys we passed over. And I'm having, I'm honestly having flashbacks now, looking at mocks this year, where I'm like, we're going to pass on Devonta or Jamar Chase and we're going to take a fucking tight end, part of my French. And I'm going to lose it. I'm going to lose it. Whatever happened, by the way, here's, you know what? You guys remember this? Remember when the draft, the first round was just like, let's just take tackles from Iowa? Like, what? What happened to that? That seemed to work.

Yeah. Like, why is it, why are we all, like, let's just smash all? Everything is like, we got to get a skill player in the first round. We got to draft a quarterback or a wide receiver. Like, there's got to be some corn fred giant who can play tackle out there that no one will get mad at us for drafting. What happened to that, that philosophy? So I'm sensing a lot of anger. And I just want to start by saying that this anger is very justified, Chris. and I want to be clear that this is not your fault.

I don't know how much of this you've internalized. I never thought it was my fault. He hates Howie Roseman, hyphins. It's Howie Roseman's fault. I know whose fault. That's the thing is, like, we're not searching. Like, I know exactly whose fault it is. Does this change how you look at the Super Bowl

that you won somehow, like, only three years ago? Like, considering that now, like, like, all the, like, Carson Wentz, Frank Reich, Mike Groh, like just went. to Indianapolis and made an indie Midwest. Does that change any of the emotions involved with that game? Like, do I somehow...

No, I mean, that's still like a miracle. That was just like the absolute, like, that was the perfect mix of inspiration and preparation. Like, that team actually was put together in this sublime way, and it had such a great mix of veterans, character guys, and actual skill players.

And full stepping up the way he did was such a great, like, story, you'd make a movie out of it. But that team was actually built to be successful in the present tense. And so I don't, I don't really, there's nothing about that that feels fake to me now, if that's what you're asking. I think what's just surprising is how quickly it just got torn to pieces, you know, like, and I look back and I'm like, gosh, we just have overpaid to keep Chris Long and Malcolm Jenkins for another two years. Like, like, what was it that was holding this all together? Because it clearly wasn't once.

So with so many guys going, like the wayside, there's been an exodus from that Super Bowl team. What's your feeling on Zacherts right now? He's an Eagles legend. Is he going to continue to be an Eagles player this year? I don't think he's coming back. I don't think Kelsey's coming back. I think it's over, man. I think this is their, they're tearing it down to the studs.

Are there any things you're looking forward to? What Eagles player do you think about that gets you up at a bed in the morning? I'm excited for, I mean, I'm excited for Hertz. I'm excited to see, like, I thought our Hertz was running that offense. Like, here's another thing that we haven't even unpacked is, why did Doug go? Like, if we, like, like, that guy won a Super Bowl within the last five years. I just feel like that should be pretty much ironclad job security. And I know I've read everything that's like, Roseman and Lurie were, you know,

dictating who he could hire and what, like, personnel choices and we're pressuring him to do this. and the other thing. But that guy went to Super Bowl, you'd be Billed Belichick in the Super Bowl. Like, that should be ironclad job protection. And if you're going to get rid of Wents, why not keep Doug? Like, I just don't get it at all. The initial reaction that everybody had that I saw

was when they got rid of Peterson, or at least whatever, he resigned or they had a mutual party. There was apparently a meeting that he had had with Lurie where he walked in, and I guess Lurie was not particularly impressed with like whatever Doug said in that meeting and that it was like quote unquote mutual but jump pushed like who can say right and so the initial reaction everybody was like okay so they're they picked wents and they're going to fix wence and everything that they're going to do going forward is all about

fixing wents getting the train back on the tracks or whatever and then all of a sudden they trade once yes if you read peter king it seems like basically Basically, they did everything that Wentz wanted or everything that they did over the last two seasons was designed to make Wentz a happy franchise player up until this season when they undercut him with the Hertz pick and then benched him. Let me ask you, Chris, are you rooting for Carson Wentz? I don't really care. Do you think he's... You never had the Wentz fat head behind you? This isn't like I like, I like rooted for Mike Vic.

You know what I mean? Like when he left, like there's guys who I really like, I, I always. always pull for Deshawn Jackson, you know, but like I didn't really, I mean, Wence will be once, like in Indianapolis. Do you, does anybody care about the Colts aside from Colts fans? When you look back on Carson Wentz's career, do you like yearn for an alternate reality where he never got hurt? Yeah, I wish he hadn't dove for the goal line. I think that was against the Rams, right? Where he got hurt. I wish he had slid, or I wish he had run out of bounds, or I wish, like, his leg didn't get smashed in three places when he did that. Where do you think,

be right now. Well, I mean, chances are we wouldn't have won the Super Bowl, right? I mean, like when you think about that night and you think about what happened in that game and you can play that game a hundred times, how many times do you think the Eagles win that game? Right. Like that'll mess you up. 30, 20? You know, Bill Simmons once wrote, after your team wins a championship, they immediately get a five-year grace period. You cannot complain about anything that happens with your team. Trades, draft picks, salary gap cuts, coaching moves for five years. They There are no exceptions. How do you feel about that?

He wrote that before Twitter. He wrote that before we spent all day long analyzing every single play call, watching all 22 film, like, watching, like, diving deep into, like, advanced analytics about guys and, like, what they were, like, Carson's numbers was just so bad, man. They were so bad. And he was getting the shit sacked out of him. like I just turning the ball over all the time like there was something really wrong and like so bill bill wrote that and he was right and I kind of still agree with him on a like on a on a on a spiritual level I agree with that should be the case but it's not that surprising when it happens

anymore is it well it's not like like for as much as we're probably like I can't believe Doug Peterson won a Super Bowl three years ago and now he's out of a job I don't think any be I don't think people are shocked by like that being the result of of this Eagle season. The standards in the sport have changed. I mean, it would have been unthinkable that the Eagles would have traded Wentz like a couple years ago

or that the Rams would have traded Goff. Did Wentz even start his new contract technically? It hadn't kicked in yet, I don't think. Or he's just in the first year of it, yeah. That is insane. Can I ask you guys a question? Because I wanted to maybe, maybe you guys could help me out.

I wonder also whether this is something of a phenomenon coming out of, so when the Seahawks were winning with Russ in the beginning part of his career. And it was like, the trick is to get a quarterback on his rookie deal, start him immediately, and then surround him with a good old line

and great skill players, because he's cheap, you can spend elsewhere. And now look at all these guys who are coming out of that first, you know, they're now in their extension or their new deal, Goff, Wence, all these dudes, even Russ now that he's expensive.

and it's getting a little harder to fill out those rosters with quality players. Do you think that we're actually at a point now where we're finding out that maximizing guys on their rookie deals

is actually not setting them up for future success. Does that make any sense? You're not looking far ahead in the future. You're playing the short game, not the long game. Yeah, but when you actually, when the bill comes due

on those quarterbacks and your team winds of having to find other places to pay the court, like to take from to pay that quarterback, that the things that made that quarterback good in the first place wind of disappearing.

Right. Do we think that's still the best thing to do, though? Like the best method? It feels like so many quarterbacks have kind of flamed out. The rookie quarterbacks just haven't really panned out or at least first round quarterbacks haven't panned out over the last few years.

Like what happens when you have to pay Baker? Yeah. Right. And then you don't have an elite offensive line. Right. You don't have two really good running backs. They decide to not spend a running back or whatever. and then things change.

It's fascinating. I want to play word association with you on this. Give me like the first thing that pops in your head. Dallas Goddert. Sub-erts. Yeah, like. So you're not bullish. Yeah, like it's,

I still have to get, I still can't go over his first name, honestly. Wish it was different. Yeah. Miles Sanders. Oh, uh, maybe next LaShawn. is that in a positive way?

Yeah, that's in the positive place. Sorry, yes. Yeah, I love Miles Sanders. Okay, I can't tell. That makes sense. Are we giving up on Jalen Rager? Sure. Yeah.

Really? Yeah. Oh, wow, it's easy to hurt you. It's easy to hurt you. That guy, I mean, I'm not... It sounds like it's less to do with Jailen Rager, and it's more to do with the other wide receivers. The Justin Jefferson, yeah.

It definitely has that to do. Didn't we also pass on C.D.? Lee Lamb? I think I think Lamb was already gone. Let me check that. I'm about to light myself on fire, just thinking about that. Yeah, CD Lamb went 17, Rager, 21, Justin Jefferson, 22. Ouch.

That's the theme of this whole session, isn't it? Ouch. A lot of pain. Jalen Hertz, just like general trauma. It just seems to be defining your offseason right now. Well, this whole situation is testing what Bill wrote. I mean, it basically couldn't have gone worse immediately after you won the Super Bowl and it's just testing how much it's worth it. It still sounds like it was obviously worth it for you,

but it's really testing your limits. Chris, I guess my question for you is, is your happy place as a Philly sports fan to complain? No, my happy place is beating Dallas. That's the one cool thing about, like there's many great things about Philadelphia, but there's something so pure about

the NFC East and the amount that NFC East teams hate one another. And I actually can get through a football season with a couple of really significant NFC East victories. And to me, honestly, sometimes it's even more enjoyable to rob another NFC East team of happiness than it is to have happiness for myself.

So like if it means, if we beat the Giants, like Danny, I'm sorry, but Miracle at the Metallands is probably, like, the Super Bowl is a 10 miracle at the Meadowlands is like a 9.5 for me. So maybe you can't find happiness, but you at least can rob happiness from others. Yeah, or all happiness is local. Let's put it that way.

Chris, I think we've made a tremendous amount of progress today. I feel great. I mean, like, I came in here. I was, I felt like I was in shambles. I was a, shell of a man. And I've never been in a therapy session with three therapists. So this was new for me. It's very expensive. Am I paying you guys all one hourly rate or does it? Three individual Venmos would be great. So you guys are just going to call Cigna, right? Like I don't have to worry about that.

Okay. Yeah. Venmo? Venmo. Yeah, I noticed in this setup that you guys have not displaying degrees from any colleges. We're completely out of network. We don't disclose anything. We're way out of network.

Yeah. It's like off the grid basically. Good. Yeah. You guys should do a Robin Hood of therapy. This is good. All right, we'll see you next at the congressional hearings. Thank you, Chris, for coming on.

We appreciate it. Bye-bye. Thank you to Chris. Here with D.K. and Craig, I just want to hit the cult side of this for you guys, because quite frankly, just everyone seems to have forgotten the cult's part of this, and just it's so easy to assess over the Eagles because, I don't know, bigger city and more members of the media from Philadelphia, but I just wanted to hit what you,

I mean, do you think Carson Wentz will actually be better than Rivers and Indy, and how do you think the cult's offense is with Carson Wentz, D.K. It's so tough I am not super bullish I would say if anything I'm kind of neutral Or super bullish Oh Wow that's

Somebody should capitalize on that Very good pun No I'm not I don't know It's one of those things where You look at the stats Carson Wentz was a broken player Last year

He was legitimately Like bottom three In every In every important category in every important statistical metric, he was awful. And so, like, is he magically going to just turn back into the guy that we saw, like, three years ago

that everybody's, like, clinging to? Maybe there's a chance when he gets, when he reunites with Reich. But I'm just not, I don't feel strong. I don't feel strongly that's going to happen. Okay, here's my question, D.K. What was more of a fluke, you think, that the situation was so perfect when he was playing well

that it can't be repeated, or that the situation was so terrible when he was playing awful, that that won't be repeated. Which was more of an anomaly? The anomaly was him being in the perfect situation, in my mind. I mean, that's what I'm saying is, is that season, whatever it was, 2017? It was 2017 or 2018 that he was. 17.

17. Yeah, 2017. Over the time, it's lost all meaning. Eon, like ages of the earth ago at this point. I think that was kind of the outlier and everything else we've seen from him during his career. He's erratic, his accuracy struggles. You know, he tries to make too much out of, like, nothing in terms of he forces throws. He tries to, like, make these Houdini plays in the pocket.

I don't know, man. He's in a good situation with a really good offensive line in front of him. They do have a – the Colts do have an opening at left tackle now with Anthony Costanzo retiring. So that's a big deal. And I don't think they have a particularly elite receiver core, something that he can really lean on. You know, I think I'm – But did he in Philly?

Suspects. No. I mean, he didn't at all, but that's what I'm saying is it's not like he lands with the Buccaneers, like what Brady did where you have like two elite receivers. You got Michael Pittman, who was all right as a rookie, and then Paris Campbell has been hurt his whole, you know, career so far. And then T.Y. Hilton is a free agent. Jack Doyle is 80 years old. You know, he has 80-year-old legs, at least, according to our, you know, age-dustic metric, yeah.

That's an antilitic right there. It's an anti-lytic. I don't know. So, I don't know. I'm just, you know, I'm not saying that he will be bad. You're not super-stitious. You're a little stitious. Yeah.

If Carson Wentz was in the draft pool, current contract, like you can draft and be you get his current contract. Where would you take Carson Wentz in the draft? Like in the actual real draft? Like the second round. In this draft right now, if he's in the pool for some reason. Like early second probably? I think that's where he landed.

You want to take him in the first round? With that contract? No. Wow. Wow. Okay. I thought I thought he'd say way better. What's he making a year?

What's his exact contract? It costs the cult $25 million a year, which is basically like pretty decent. If he plays well, it's a really good number. If he plays poorly, it's a bad number. Let me put it this way, Hafeitz. The NFL didn't take Carson Wentz for a first round pick this year. I think that there's a reason that that happened. And the reason is that nobody knows what's up with this dude except the cults.

That's why this is one of the few trades. It's kind of like the Pelicans and Anthony Davis and the Lakers, where the whole time. It was like he's going to go to the Lakers for like six months. And then he did. From wire to wire, it was the cult, cults, cults,

because it was the only thing that made sense. Who's going to offer more than the cults? Because if the cults are going to offer less than that, Frank Reich knows the problem better than anyone else. Outbidding the cults seems kind of crazy because Frank Reich is the best suited person to fix this situation. So it always made sense.

And again, I think that, I think your point, D.K., about Wentz being in a perfect situation in 2017 with the Eagles is correct. But the cults are a pretty good situation. I know Costanzo is retiring, but like that's a better offensive line than anything's played again in four seasons. It's the receiving court is, I mean, certainly better than what the Eagles have, even if T.Y. Hilton leaves.

It's still way better with Michael Pittman and Paris Campbell and then. I don't know. Close. I'd say it's comparable. All right, fine. Comparable or comparable? Doesn't matter. Comparable.

And his defense is, I think the defense is pretty good too. Also, and he's not the best running back he's ever had. I mean, he would have Lageret Blunt that year, I think? Jay Ajay, but regardless, I think that I kind of believe in this. And also, look, if he, let's just say for thought experiment, just imagine the Carson one comes out and like is a

borderline MVP candidate after a month in the Colt Star 4-0. What are we going to say? You can already hear the narrative. Oh my God, dude had terrible 2020 with an offensive line that had 14 combinations in 16 games with wide receivers where the AAF guy

was one of the more reliable players. Travis Foldham. I forgot about. Zach Hertz got hurt, Dallas got hurt Jalen Rager didn't play Alshan didn't play again 14 offensive line combinations they're down to Corey Clement running back and we're like what's wrong with Wence why is he trying to play

hero ball and then look what happened like you know what I mean it's just if he's good it will be so obvious why he's succeeding now I'm kind of just willing to be on the boat I'm into that I get that does that mean like you're a buyer of the receiver group there like are you Yes I'm a buyer of the whole

I think the Colts I would pick the Colts to win the division. I'm like, I know it's February, that's a completely meaningless statement, but I just think the cults are probably the best team in the division right now. It's also not that hot of a take. I mean, it's not like, I didn't say it's a hot take. I think they're going to win the division. I think that if they win the division with Carson Wentz, it's worth the, it's worth what would be the 24th pick plus the third rounder. I think that that's what you want. Yeah, you know, we mentioned antiletics earlier and I, you know, the biggest antiletic that I'm going to throw out here now and it's going to be why I draft Michael Pittman this year is he said, hey, Wentz,

Fuck you. You can't have number 11. Yeah, this is this is actually This is a double-edged sword here. This is a coin flip of completely meaningless Or it has been And if it has meaning, it gets funnier

So he told Wentz He said he told TMZ He said, hey Carson I'm not giving up 11 And apparently he said that Carson said That's cool bro, I'm probably couldn't switch anyway Which is like such a funny like defensive Like I don't even care

I was gonna break up with you anyway, so I'm glad you broke up with me. I don't remember who said it with someone on Twitter, an ex-receiver, or maybe a current receiver, was like, oh, he's never getting the ball now. Dude, I, it's like, there is a chance that that is true about Michael Pittman, just not getting the ball. And the fact that it's even possible is hilarious. Or could it forge respect between the two of them, you know?

And Wentz is like, wow, I like this kid. Yeah, he's like the alpha. He's saying, I'm the alpha receiver, baby. Come on. throw me the ball. But at the same time, if Carson Wentz came in and, like, kind of, not going to say Big Dick, but the words came out of my mouth his way to getting the number 11 jersey, like, we would all just be making, like, if something leaked that Carson Wentz

bullied Michael Pittman to give him the thing and was like, I won't throw him the ball, we'd all be like, wow, screw Carson Wentz, right? You think Wentz is bummed that Nick Foles, his name is Nick and rhymes with Dick? Big Dick. Yeah, like, that's just so easy. If his name was Andrew, what would they do? Arson, Carson. Yeah, that's tough.

Okay. Wait, wait, wait. So Colts guy's going forward, we got Pittman, Hilton, Taylor, the 17 tight ends in the team. Is anything really dramatically different? Or is it pretty much all the same if Phil Rivers is there?

Like, we're not drafted anyone super different. I think Carson Wentz is going to be a big upgrade over Phil Rivers. I understand that everyone, I guess I just don't have the emotional attachment to this guy. I get he doesn't curse and has many children and like he's fun to hear and mic'd up. But, like, as an actual quarterback,

I mean, his actual skill, skill was checking down a lot. Like the actual on-field skill the Philip Rivers seems to have had is the patience to take what the defense gives him, which is like the most boring kind of football to possibly watch. I just kind of think that this is way better

for the cult's offense to have someone who's just going to be more aggressive. Anything else we got out here for cults? I want to go to Dynasty. Nah, I'm with Craig. I don't think it changes all that much. Let's move on. Wow.

I think I like the cults this year. Dynasty, we're picking up where we left off from last week. last week we kind of did a little intro to dynasty 101, just what the hell is this dynasty football, kind of explained to start up drafts. This week we're going to talk about rookie drafts, but specifically one of the weirdest parts of the whole process,

which is just first round picks and rookie drafts and all this stuff. So off the bat, D.K., what the hell is a rookie draft in dynasty football? Basically, after the startup draft, then every year you have a rookie draft, and it's usually a four-round draft. It gives bad teams a chance to get better. And obviously, one of the biggest questions,

I think that new dynasty players, have and I had this when I first started playing Dynasty was like, what the hell is, are these picks worth? Like, I have no concept of how I should value them in trades and all those things. And obviously, I think that's going to be the biggest learning curve going from season long to dynasty is kind of getting grasp on those values. So I'd say the biggest way to learn is to, number one, just look at ADP, startup ADP, that you can find that at Dynasty League football, Fantasy Bros, a couple of different sites.

It gives you an idea where these guys are going, where these rookies are going in startup drafts, gives you an idea of their value relative to, like, the rookie draft picks. And then also just perusing drafts, or sorry, and obviously just perusing trades that have happened in Dynasty League kind of gives you an idea. But it's one of those things where you sort of learn as you go,

generally speaking. And by ADP, you just mean where are these guys being drafted as an average? That's it. Exactly. So, for instance, like Trevor Lawrence, you know,

he's such a valuable long-term asset. At least people view him as that, that, you know, if you have the 101, if you have the first overall pick of the rookie draft this year, that's hugely hugely valuable because I think Trevor Lawrence is already like a top 20 player in Dynasty

overall. So that guy is massively, massively valuable. And generally speaking, I would say, you know, the top couple picks of a first round in rookie drafts are worth, you know, an elite player. You're not going to trade that pick, those high-end picks for anything other than an elite player. Well, I just want to clarify a couple things real quick. So you mentioned Lawrence being top 20. In part, that's because Dynasty, generally speaking, it's done with two quarterbacks in your starting lineup. So quarterbacks are a lot more scarce. So quarterbacks are Like Mahomes is like maybe number one overall player.

And then also you're getting these guys for their whole careers. So if you can have Trevor Lawrence or like Sequin Barclay, generally because, you know, Trevor Lawrence, there's a chance that he plays 20 years. And you have him until like 2040. And so drafting Trevor Lawrence means you, you know, 20 years of Trevor Lawrence. So just want to throw that out there. But continue. Yeah.

So, I mean, that's the very basic gist of it. Like if you're going to trade a guy like, you know, say Alvin Camaro or, Jonathan Taylor or Staqwan Barkler, any of these elite running backs, typically, like, your starting price is going to be like two first round picks. Two first round rookie picks. And that's, like, very general.

And then, but, like, every league is a little bit different. Every league has a little more action than the other. A little more, a little less action than the other. And so it just kind of, it's one of those things you have to feel out. We were going to, today we're going to look at rookie drafts from the last few seasons, the average

draft position of some of these guys to kind of give people an idea and to re-kind of acquaint ourselves with the value of these rookie picks, to give you an idea, kind of like the players you can get in the top half of the first round, the second half of the first round, and go from there. So I think that's, I think that's kind of what we're going to do, just re-acquaint ourselves with value and ask ourselves, how much really are these picks worth? Are we overvaluing them just because it's fun to do a rookie draft? or are we undervaluing them because maybe you can get

these franchise changing players with these picks. You have to factor in that sometimes in the off season there's nothing going on and you have a rookie draft coming up and people are bored and they're like,

I want a high draft pick, I'll give something up, I want to be involved, I don't want to sit idly for seven months waiting for the season to start. Exactly. I truly believe that.

As a general rule, veterans are cheapest, veteran, good veteran players are cheapest during the early part of the off season because people get rookie fever, and they want those rookie draft picks. Rookie fever.

Yeah. The best time to trade for rookie draft picks is right before the playoff start, you want to target the teams that are trying to go for a championship because they're more willing to give up those first-run picks to get a guy that will put their team over the top. As soon as the season's over,

those rookie draft picks are like gold, and you can use them to trade for a guy like Camara, for instance, I think a lot of people are going to be trying to offload because he is sort of at the peak of his value probably at this point. Yeah, and the Saints, like no one knows what's going to happen to their offense, the quarterback situation. So where do you want to start? Do you want to start in 2017? What's the first-round pick worth, D-K? Like, you just mentioned vaguely you can get, so I can pack up two first-round picks that can just trade for Seek-Wan. Is that what you're saying here? Theoretically. Yeah. So like a 2020-2 and a 23 first for Seek-won?

Well, I would say if you're trying to trade for an elite running back, you would want it to be two 2020-one's. So, like, maybe that's an early and a late 2020-20-1. draft pick. They lose value as you get into future seasons, if that makes sense. Okay, but if no one of my league has multiple picks this year or the person who does doesn't want to give that up, and you're trying to trade a right, like how do you go about?

Like, what's a fair package if you're trying to look for? Maybe like, yeah, like a first round pick and then maybe like one of the, you know, the second tier receiver or something like that. You have to package things. How big of a gap is there between like the second pick and the ninth pick? I mean, in theory it's a huge gap. But there's always, and I think what we're going to

talk about today is there's so much uncertainty in the draft. It's like a normal NFL draft. Like you're going to have tons of hits and misses. There's so much. There's, there's a lot of risk baked in to these draft picks. Some people honestly just punt their picks. They're like, I'm going to take, Belichicket. I'm going to take the guy that I know is established. Yeah. You know, some people, some players, some fantasy managers will just be like, you know what, I don't trust the draft. You got to wait like two years in some cases for these guys to develop. I'm just going to punt my picks. and take a guy like Devante Atte, like trade my high-end first runner for a guy like Devante Adams who's already established. So this is what I love about Dynasties.

Like some people take, you know, that tack. I personally like having the rookie draft picks because I think it's just fun. I like studying the draft and all that, so it's like valuable to me. But there's certainly different ways of doing it. And if you look at last year's first round picks, overall, very strong class. But yeah, really strong. I would say that there's enough uncertainty with some of these guys. that you could argue that you would have been better off trading one of these guys for, you know, a high-end player.

Especially, I'd say if you look at the 2019 class, that's way more apparent. Like, you know, so let's just let's just get into these, these, you know, ADP, the ADP data, which is from Dynasty League football and MFL, which is my fantasy league. They collect all the data on real drafts. So this is kind of how it ended up. And I looked at basically off-season ADP. Who were some of the hits and who were some of the misses? Okay. So, for instance, looking at last year's first round, the 2020 NFL draft Superflex ADP,

Joe Burrow was the overall first overall pick. Clyde Edwards-Alaher was number two. In a lot of cases, he was, I think people were willing to take a bet on Edwards-Layer. And the jury is obviously still really out on that. He was, I'd say, a disappointing rookie relative to where people were taking. taking him in rookie drafts. Jonathan Taylor was the number three pick, the RB2, Tua Tungo Viloa, fourth overall pick,

according to MFL's ADP. And that is another situation where if you used a fourth overall pick on Tua, probably not feeling great about it right now. When you compare the fact that Justin Herbert was taken with an average ADP of 10th late first round, then it's, you know what I mean? It's one of those situations where you're kind of disappointed. And I think Justin Herbert, if we redrafted,

would be the overall top pick right now. So that gives you an idea. I'll just go through the 5 through 12 or whatever. So it was J.K. Dobbins, DeAndre Swift, Cammakers. I think all three of those guys, people are pretty bullish on still. CD-Lam, Jerry Judy, over Justin Jefferson, who was at 11, and Jalen Rager at number 12. So obviously, Rager, very disappointing.

Judy disappointing relative to the fact that Jefferson was probably the best receiver in this class last year. I think it's a good indication. is a good measure that first round ADP and first round picks in general, there's a lot of variability. Nothing is set in stone that these guys are going to be great. So, hi, Fitz.

So hearing this, you and I are kind of dynasty rookies here. When you look at these rankings, like, the first thing that jumps out to me is like, I would not, I'm not betting on a quarterback. Like, NFL teams can't do it, so why the fuck would I do it?

Like, that's, yeah, it's kind of true with every player, though, right? The cheapest, a lot of these guys are ever. It's not, though. Like, I know D.K just went through all these, like, rookies, but, like, they're rookies, right? Like, I think looking at the ones from three or four years ago is a little more informative because you kind of, it's more, you kind of get a better idea. So I'm just looking, just pulling 2018, for example.

Top guys is Sequin. That worked out. Kind of. Next guy is Darius Geis. Catastrophe. Then it's Baker, mixed results. Nick Chubb, that's great. Rashad Penny, your guy, Chris.

I just called you Chris. Holy shit. Chris went 30 minutes ago. Oh my God. It's all right. You need therapy for Rashad Penny because he's, I mean, hasn't played in forever. Josh Rosen, top five. Yep.

Sony Michelle, Ronald Jones. Lamar Jackson. It really, like, these top tens, it's very rare to get these like middling guys, right? It is like home runs and strikeouts. It's like this is like the three true outcome for these picks. But so I looked at like what positions hit the hardest and dead last is quarterback. I mean, I just looked at the top three quarterbacks taken on each of these. these four drafts that D.K. lined up. We have Burrow. I guess that's a hit. Tua, miss. Herbert

hit. Kiler hit. Then we have Haskins, Daniel Jones, Baker, who I consider a miss, if you're taking him first. Josh Rosen, Mitch Trubisky. And yes, Deshaun and Mahomes are in there. But like, there's only one draft in which the first quarterback taken in Dynasty was actually the best quarterback in his career. And that's the Kyler draft, because every other rookie after that sucked. But it's like, you could eat, I don't know if it's worth taking Trevor Lawrence with the first overall pick when I think what the move is is when you start a dynasty draft, you should just take a quarterback in like the big draft. Grab Matt Stafford.

You know he's good. He'll be there for six years. You don't have to waste a Trevor Lawrence pick the one time you have the first pick in the draft and risk him being Josh Rosen because these running backs hit. Ten of the 13 top running backs drafted are all good startable guys right now. I think it's much more worth doing that. I don't think there's any risk of Lawrence becoming Josh Rosen, but I do think that you're right in that, I mean, generally, it's the Warren Buffett thing, right?

It's not rocket science. It's like, you should be bold when people are afraid, and you should be afraid when everyone's bold and unafraid. And you're looking at this, I think what you're saying is less like, don't you have quarterbacks, but rather the quarterbacks who fall, like the herberts, and you're like, what, why is the guy who went sixth falling outside the top 12, and the guy who went fifth is like top three? And you're like, what, why are people so confident when the NFL is saying that these guys

are basically indistinguishable, that to me is more interesting. I think that so does hate to be like, buy the dip guy, but, you know. I mean, if you look at all the running backs taken in these last four years, dude, they're all good. I mean, like, the three that didn't work out are geis. I guess you could say four net didn't work out. And then, like, how dare you?

I mean, you know, for taking him like second overall or something, maybe not. But like, look at these guys. I mean, J.K. Dobbins, Jonathan Taylor, Seekwan, Joe Mixen, Christian McCaffrey, Miles Sanders, Josh Jacobs. Like, all these guys head. I do know who all those people are. Those are all good. You know, it's like I'd much rather risk getting like five years of like a really good startable running back than taking Josh Rosen accidentally with the one time you have a top three pick.

The quarterback, I think it's absolutely true though what you're saying. My counter would be when you hit on a quarterback in the rookie draft, it's like a massive, massive boost for your team. It can change the whole complexion of your team. Like Justin Herbert is literally the sixth overall player in startup drafts right now. Right. And you could get him at 10th. in a rookie draft last year. Think about the value, like, supercharged right there.

So I would say that, you know, that's the reason that you take a risk on these guys, but on the other hand, I'm with you in strategy-wise. I don't want to find myself... I prefer, personally, not to find myself having to pick quarterbacks in rookie drafts because they just miss so much in the NFL.

You know what I mean? It's... And one of the most volatile positions, it's the most difficult position in the world to succeed at at a high level, right? Like, it's the hardest position in any sport. And running back, on the other hand, is relatively easy. You have to be athletic and you have to have a few good skills.

But at the end of the day, like, Craig, your favorite thing, it's like they're pretty interchangeable. So have you guys seen the big short? Yeah. You know that's seen in the big short where I think it's Milakunis is explaining like the financial catastrophe at a blackjack table? and how everyone's bet, like, there's a person playing Blackjack and there's some betting on his hand,

and they're betting who's going to win that. That's basically what Dynasty Football is with a rookie draft, because the teams are betting on the players. They're like the teams at the table. And then by us drafting their draft picks, we're basically the people throwing all this money. And at this point, it's so far removed from action. Yeah, you're like shorting someone shorts.

That's what I have a GameStop. Exactly. And so I think that part of the thing here is, like, you can get so caught up in the, how talented is this person, situation. The reality is the teams who actually are seeing these individuals and meeting with them and studying

them for their careers have like a coin flip hit rate in the first round. And I think that there is something, the basic idea that the Patriots crushed drafting for the 20 years was the humility to basically back out of the first round and say we have no idea how to find successful people. This is dart throwing.

Just give us more darts. And that worked. And then obviously they just haven't been able to hit a first round receiver or first round pick really for like six years which kind of reinforces the point right of generally speaking it's really easy to be like trade up for Trevor Lawrence trade up for this player and maybe you you do it and you're right and you know what it's fantasy football if you like jamar chase and you want him and you root for lsue screw it just get lamar jimar chase like whatever however however there is often like a benefit to the humility of i have no idea who's going to be good i'll just take more picks and like that is probably the best

way to do it. DK., as somebody who analyzes players and makes mock drafts and has a big draft board, what position do you think if a gun was to your head is the easiest position to predict? If somebody was like, I need to know if this player is going to be good next year,

what position are you going to pick where you think you'll be most likely correct? Probably running back. There you go. I mean, that's the thing. Nobody can figure out a quarterback because it's way too complicated of a position. Running back, it's like, you know,

you know who's good? Usually the best running back in college football is going to be really good in the NFL. So I just think it makes way, like let me throw a theoretical trade by you here in Dynasty, D.K. Let's say you have Matt Stafford

and I have the first overall pick in this year's draft, rookie draft. You're really on a Stafford kick. I'm just, I feel like he's like a, you know, the 12th or 15th,

Beth quarterback in the league. You give me Stafford in a second and I give you the first overall pick. Do you think that's a fair trade? Oh, that's tough. No, I think the person giving up the first overall pick would not be getting good enough value. Oh, see, I think I would do that. I think that's one of those trades that you make, and then there's a group chat that blows up,

and everyone's like, why didn't you send me the offer first? I would have beaten that. If you can get an early second round pick and Matt Stafford, you're getting a quarterback who you know was good already, and like the 12th pick or the 14th pick in a draft, which like if you go through every year, that was Calvin Ridley in 2018. Yeah, but it also could have been Royce Freeman. and that's what you're paying for certainly, right? I kind of think the hit rate is the same.

Here's what Craig's point is, though, and I think it's a salient one, is a lot of people probably overvalue these rookie picks. They over-inflate their own ability to turn it into an elite player, maybe. That being said, I would not take that. If I had the first overall pick,

I would not take that trade. And I think a lot of people probably would laugh at you if you made that trade. If you gave up the first pick for a 33-year-old quarterback who, like you said, is like 15th best quarterback

in the NFL. Everyone would be like, you fucking idiot. Damn, so I guess this is dynasty therapy for me. That's just off the top of my head. Maybe get in my mentions or whatever if I'm wrong, but my initial impression is like

that would get laughed at, but I don't know. Damn, I just so under, I'd rather have a 31, 32-year-old quarterback who's like pretty solid than like take a risk. And I'd just go get a good running. back instead. The other part of this discussion, and I think

that's important, is there's a huge, huge difference between 101, and say, if you traded the 105 and a second rounder, sorry, if you traded the 105 for Matt Stafford in a second rounder, I think less people would be like, that's the terrible trade. More people would be like, okay, I get that. But this gets to

the idea of why it's fun. The 101 has this like mystical power. You know what I mean? It's the 101. You can get so much. It's the frontier. It's uncharted lands. You can go wherever you want. You can settle down. You can build it's it's the American dream itself but here are the top four number one picks in the last four years burrow murray sequin corey davis 75% percent baby that works 100% of the time

75% of the time no but i think that this gets to why it's fun right which is just it's i mean it's half you're a gm it turns you into a gm yeah exactly you get to think long term i mean my half joke about dynasty is that you get if you're bad you get to pretend it's on purpose and but in reality it is fun to start thinking about timelines and roster management and it is it's great. It's right, it's general manager cosplay and if there's any fun to it in regular season this is actually doing it.

It's a delight. And if you haven't done Dinocally yet, highly recommend trying to get your league to like kind of look into it. It's fun. What's our like final takeaway from this you think? Like are we officially just... No one knows anything. No one knows anything.

It's all made up. And like we're just trying to do our absolute best to put up guardrails so you don't completely fuck up and embarrass yourself. And hopefully like bowling alley, you just get, you know, you hit the bumpers on your, way and you knock down a strike. But the reality is football is harder to predict three years

out than like any other sport. This is not minor league baseball where you knew Julio Rodriguez was going to be good like four years ago. That's not how it works. And so there's a chaos to the long-term planning that makes all of this more exciting. And so betting, I think betting

against certainty is to me the theme here. It's like betting against everyone knows what's going to happen is generally good. The best analog for Trevor Lawrence is Andrew Luck. Like, imagine the fervor of getting the first pick in 2012 for Andrew Luck. And then plot twist, he played one more season of football than Peyton Manning did.

No one knows anything, dude. And so, yeah, it's anti-fragile. It's the zero-rb. D.K., what's the zero-rb of Dynasty? Going old? Oh, that's a good question. And what do you mean? Like, is it just like zinging when other people are zagging or finding, what do you mean?

Yeah, what is the zigging? the Zag. I guess there's probably a lot. I do like the idea that what you're talking about, the, just go all veterans, punt all your draft picks, go for the gusto year one. I mean, that's like one way of doing it. The other thing, I think that's a fun way of doing it. And I know that a lot of people subscribe to this theory, there's something called the productive struggle in dynasty. When you do a, it's another way of saying tank, but like it's a better euphemism for it, the productive struggle. Basically, when you start out, you do your,

you do your startup draft, just trade back the first, well, basically trade back as much as you can. Belichick. Get as many future first round pick, future first round rookie picks as you can. So basically, you come out of the draft with a pretty crappy team for year

one and maybe even year two, but you have so many first round picks that you're adding, like for instance, if we had done this last year, you're adding you know, C.D. Lamb, Jerry Judy, Justin Jefferson, and then next year you're going to get Trevor Lawrence and Travis ETN. And then pretty soon, within like a year or two, if you do it right, your core group of your team is like all the best, all the top, most exciting players in theory.

If you draft right, obviously that's not a given. But I don't know if I'm even answering your question, but I'm just basically speaking on different strategies that people use in these startup drafts where, you know, say you're like sitting there on the clock and, in Travis Kelsey is on the board and someone really wants Travis Kelsey. I did this last year. I traded that spot, which I think was like a second or third overall round pick. Second, I think it was a late second or early third. I can't remember.

I traded it for two future first round picks. And so I didn't get Kelsey. I didn't get anybody at that spot. And so my team really did suffer in year one. But now I've got two first round picks this year, two first round picks next year. And I'm super excited about like what I can do with my team. So, like, those are the sort of decisions you get to make, you know, and how you want to structure your team,

how patient you are and building it. Yeah, I feel like you can, I feel like most people think in like five, seven-year windows with Dynasty, and I think Zagging is either thinking extremely long-term or extremely short-term where, like, everyone on your team is Adam Thielen, or you sell the entire farm and just stockpile first-round picks, and then in seven years your team is unbelievable. Or you can just sit around and collect all your trophies for winning the off-season.

I think that if we're going like literal So the zero RB thing is based in being anti-fragile, right? Because running backs get hurt. And so I'd say the anti-fragile way of going about doing dynasty would probably be to take all highly established, you know what you're going to get from these guys, punt your draft picks, and win now. You just want a bunch of Phil Rivers on your team.

Phil Rivers in every position. Maybe not Phil Rivers, but I think of, A better analogy would be like, you know, take Adam Thielen in year one and instead of a, you know, a second round pick or something like that, you know, it's one of those things where you know what you're going to get. He's probably going to fall off a cliff in a year here and then he's going to be worthless to you and you're going to have to rebuild for three years. But that sounds awful. In year one or two. That was not convincing. I got a bad issue. That was a very not convincing argument. Here's where it doesn't sound awful. You win, you win your league and you make $1,200 or whatever it is, you know.

How does that sound high fits? You get yourself a real therapy office, not just a Zoom one. Maybe we're all be dead in your life. You never know. You never know. All right, but I do know that this podcast is about to end. Not really. We actually are going to throw,

Craig and I went on TV concierge this week. Yeah. And we talked about a perfect planet, which is the best show, in my opinion, of all time, maybe. It's just about nature and how beautiful it is and how we're destroying it. D.K. is busy raising a human child. But Craig and I had time. to go on.

We're throwing a little snippet of it on the end of this episode. If you've ever wanted us to just randomly like talk about nonsense that was not football, this is your opportunity. Check out the TV concierge feed

for the whole episode, but that was a lot of fun. But, D.K., thank you, D.K. Thank you to Chris Ryan. Yeah. Of course, always. Thank you, Lord. Lauren.

Thank you, Bebes. Justin Bieber. Do you see him on the Spotify? Spotify concert. Stream on. Bebs can't miss. can't miss. No, he can't miss. Okay. See you guys next week. We're going to get to TV concierge in a second, but first please remember, email us at ringer fantasy football at gmail.com. Tell us what you like,

what could be improved about our first year of the show. We would love to hear from you, and we will get back to you. Hello and welcome to TV concierge, a podcast on the ringer podcast network that helps you navigate the vast streaming landscape. And we'll be discussing landscapes today or the lack thereof because we're discussing perfect planet, which should maybe be called an imperfect planet, a show on Discovery Plus about the infinite wonders of the earth and the ways the humans are ruining it. I'm your host for today's episode, Craig Horlebeck.

I'm here with Danny Highfitz. We are co-hosts on the Ringer Fantasy Football Show with Danny Kelly, Hyfitz. Tell us a little bit about a perfect planet. This is my new religion. I think that this is... I don't want to be hyperbolic, but I'm serious. I think that this is the best use of TV as a medium.

I mean, this is in the family of like, planet Earth, planet Earth, It's the same crew. It's BBC. It's David Attenborough. They make perfect planet. This one is five episodes. It's called A Perfect Planet Planet. It's on Discovery Plus, which I mean, who knew that was a thing, right? But hey, they got me there. It's five episodes. So it's volcanoes, the sun, weather, tides, and humanity. Those are like the five forces shaping wildlife right now. And it's just, you know, if you ever seen Planet Earth 1 or Planet Earth 2, it's like that, but just great again. It took them four years to film the freaking thing. They went to 31 countries. They captured six different volcanic eruptions. I don't know what else you could possibly want. wanting to show. They're showing you, you know, marine iguanas and all these stuff you've never heard of. And also, Discovery Plus, it's like, you get the first seven days free. It's like $6.99 a month. You can cancel it before you pay for the first month. It's five episodes. This is my favorite type of television. And I couldn't, I honestly could not recommend it higher. You want to just like recklessly rank some animals? Sure. So we got to do awards first.

Well, you're right. Awards, what are we going to do? Buy low, sell high. People. What are we supposed to do? Branch out too much? No, it's not. If I learned one thing about the show, it's about stay in your niche. Right. Who's your, so if you were going to do a buy low, who's a by low? Explain what a low is. By low is, I mean, is, you know, buy someone it's cheap. I feel like if people get it. You don't want to buy high. I, dude, I got to go with those wildebeests on the Serengeti. Can I say something? I mean, this is, this is embarrassing. Yeah. This is a safe space, even though it's a podcast, but it's safe space. People are going to listen to them. I, not a hundred percent confident that Wildebeest are still around. I thought they're like Sabert Two Tigers. Like we do trivia on our fantasy show.

Somebody was like, Craig, are Will Debees still alive? I would have thought about it. Sure. I mean, it's barely. That was my takeaway. One out of ten of them makes it to adulthood. Yeah, I don't know if I like associated them

with woolly mammoths or something, but when I just hear the word wildebeest, I was like, damn, I don't know if I knew those were around still. Why aren't they a buy low for you? Oh, I just, I mean, I'm just the perseverance. I think anyone who has to get born and just like start running from predators within like 90 seconds really impresses me. I also like respect the show because they showed a lot of birth, which usually doesn't make it to TV. But honestly, you know what?

You know, we're dudes. Like, you know, we probably should not, you know, really complain about that. Like, I thought it was actually wild like to see, I don't know, will be fall out, stand up, wobble and then just run. That was crazy. Yeah, we watched sharks give birth too in the oceans episode. So they really just immediately, they're just out. They're ready to go. But then they pop them out.

And then they're like, all right, peace. Like, I'll see you later. Like someone just leaving like a, like a party. And you're just like never going to see that person again. It'd be like if the second you had a baby, you're like, hey, you got to go get lunch for yourself. Like, what are you going to do for lunch today? Like you start like you start walking away from someone. You say goodbye and then you walk in the same direction.

Like, oh, I'm going. And you know what to say? Like that's the Sharks giving birth. You're like, I know, I got my dinner planned. I don't, I'm not sure what you're doing. My by-low is, I'm going to just give it to all birds. There's a lot of birds in the episode. My biolo is on birds because everyone hates birds.

What the fuck hates birds? Everybody fucking hates birds. Birds sing. He's like famously a great thing. No. It's another take of my... I think birds singing in the morning, people, at the end of the day, I'd rather not have it. It's annoying.

It's cute. It sounds pleasant for like 30 seconds. Then you're like, okay, I'd rather... Do you get those Instagram ads that are like birds aren't real? And I don't know if it's a merch. company making memes or a meme company selling merch, but they're like, birds aren't, birds are like a government surveillance thing. And I'm like, why is Jeff Bezos made birds? Yeah, it's like, why does Instagram think I want to buy these shirts? Maybe it's because I did a West World Pod.

Okay, but here's why I was baffled by birds. I think it's just like the physical feats that birds can accomplish are so impressive and underrated. There were birds that had to fly literally thousands of miles without a break to get to a habitat that they can live in. Every year they do it. 10,000 mile trips these birds make. I hated that because at first they were like really fat and they were joking that they couldn't get off the ground like fat birds and then they flew for like 10,000 miles and I'm like oh shit that that's so unbelievably

I wish I had like could go beer gut directly to the marathon because that's what they did. They fly for weeks and weeks on end without stopping. I don't know. With no land. Just to get to the eight just to get to like a good vacation spot. It's unreal. I'm just showing out birds.

They don't get enough love. Every time people see birds, they want to shoe them away. birds are quite impressive. I think so that's your by-low? It's my by-low, birds. All right. Sell high, which obviously just out,

someone you're out on. I'm out on wolves. Really? I watched five episodes and I was like, you know what? Wolves did not impress me. They couldn't catch the musk-ox.

And it's like, come on, like, it's game time. Then they gave up on the musk ox, and then they couldn't catch the rabbits. There's like a thousand rabbits. And I'm like, wow, there's so many rabbits. I didn't know that.

And they was like, oh, right, they have sex like rabbits. And then they couldn't catch the rabbits. And then they couldn't catch the sea otters. Like, I see why we turned you into dogs. That's your take. What about wolves are cute though, right? Don't you think?

Yeah, but I don't know. I just was surprised that they were pretty unsuccessful hunters. Like I get that, you know, most hunts don't go well, but I just thought they'd be better at it. The other bi-low, the other cell high I had was just the crabs that wandered like what a certain crab world must be like 100,000 miles to get to the ocean to lay their eggs. And then some of them missed the ocean. imagine like your only purpose in life is to like throw eggs into this giant crab orgy

of eggs and sperm and then you get like all the way there and then you miss the ocean with your reproductive eggs. That is the toughest beat I can ever imagine. My cell high is this doesn't really make any sense

but for some reason this hit me hardest I think it's definitely in the Tides episode. Selling high on fishing just in general. I want to, we need to, as a culture, fish less.

I felt so bad for them catching these. So they have these massive nets, and some of these people do it illegally without permits, and they catch these large groups of fish, and these sharks get caught in it, and they get injured, and they do. It's just so horrible. I want to get rid of fishing.

I obviously know it's important, and it feeds millions and millions of people every year. But was that not one of the more depressing parts of this show? It isn't. I don't know why, but so fishing, on one hand, you feel worse, you don't feel as bad for fish as like other animals, right? Like even some people give up meat but not give up fish because you're like,

yeah, it's a fish, whatever. Yeah. But at the same time, if you actually were to one for one moment, consider, all right, animals have equal consciousness. Fishing is like a horrifying thing because at least animals understand like hunting and like the game is the game. Fishing is basically alien abductions. Imagine just being pulled up to the surface and then you're just fucking in the air right now.

I can't imagine a more scary feeling than like a fish being plucked by a bird and you're just flying not just like I'm going to die, but I'm being pulled away. Into a world that I didn't know was there. Yeah. It's like literally the underworld, but it's the overworld. And you're flying away. Watching your reality fracture. Horrifying.

So I guess I'm selling high and fishing. I'm buying low on birds. I'm going full sky. I'm getting rid of the ocean. I'm selling, I'm buying low on sky. All right. Breakout star? Yeah.

I got to go to the sun. Literal star, source of all life on Earth. I just came away really impressed. with the sun. And I know... You had no idea that the sun provided so much

for the world. They had great shots of the sun. I think that was CGI though, because I was like, that's just a little too cool shot of the sun.

I don't think there's any CGII. You can't film the sun, can you? I just assumed. You got some crazy telephoto lens. You're the film major. Can you film the sun or not?

Yes. I mean, all their aerial shots are aerial space shots of the Earth are coming from satellite. So I imagine those things can turn

and point towards the sun and they have these insane telephoto lenses that can zoom incredibly close. Otherwise, I don't know how we're watching, like, a turtle, or, I mean, we're watching ants in the desert, like run for their lives. We have to have unbelievable magnification skills. Oh, yeah, right.

I feel in the ants the same as filming the sun. I forgot. There's no way they're just adding little mini explosions on the sun for us. No, I think they did. That sounds... Anyway, I'm impressed with the sun. Who's your breakout star? My breakout star is plankton.

Oh, it's a good choice. Unbelievable. So these microscopic plankton fill the oceans and they give off more oxygen than all the forests combined in the world. Did you have any idea that plankton's were so essential to the atmosphere? Yeah, they're super underrated. Incredibly underrated. SpongeBob completely denigrated the plankton.

I don't know why they chose plankton. It should have been called plankton. And then SpongeBob's this annoying character. Like there's also one plankton in bikini bottom and it's like, clearly there are trillions. Yeah, I don't know why we made him the bad guy. because, man, plankton's do a lot. Good guy. Good guy. Okay. Do you want to, before we go,

you want to do a quick, I mean, we host a fantasy show, so I feel like we wouldn't be doing ourselves justice if we didn't have a draft. Yes. Okay, so we're going to draft three animals each. Any type of species from the show that we saw, we're power ranking. We're just drafting them based on, you know,

what they bring to the planet, how we feel about them. You want first pick? Yes. Oh, I'm dubious. you've been offered to me. First pick for me is the fig wasp. Legit the craziest thing I've ever seen in my life. I can't know how to do it justice to people, but I mean, it crawls into a fig, which has a 24-hour window where, and the hole is so small that

it rips the wings off this wasp, this pregnant wasp, gets in there, lays the eggs, dies, millions of eggs. The male eggs wake up, penis twice as long as their body, impregnates. They're unborn sisters. Unborn sisters, wake up, born males, die, and then the females go and do it all again. They live for a day and a half. I thought that was the most stunning thing I've ever seen on television. Great pick. We're on my list. Awesome pick. There's a lot of animals to choose from. I have a rule in fantasy that when someone's penis is twice the length of their body, it's an auto number one overall.

Fair criteria. My first pick is the frozen frogs. Oh my God. Who live in a cryogenic slumber for half the year. when the northern hemisphere begins to melt, they literally, they freeze for half the year, their heartbeat stops, and they come back to life. And it's,

it really, I think what the show, what you're going to take away from the show when you watch it in high fits, let me know if you agree. I'm unimpressed with humans physically after watching the show.

I think you're right. Do you know what I mean? Like, there's iguanas that can hold their breath for 30 minutes. These frogs can freeze for half a year. and then just come back to life. Birds fly for a month straight.

Yeah, all these things have claws and teeth. We're just flesh sacks of meat, just waited to be eaten. And it's just like, oh. Why can't we figure out, can we like check the DNA in those frozen frogs, figure out something? Can we learn?

Jurassic Park told me not to do that. That's true. Well, that's another thing. So continue. What's your next draft? You want to go back to back here? I guess it doesn't matter, does it? No, go ahead.

I want the Storks. I was told my whole life that Storks, bring you babies. Apparently Stork kill babies. That was absolutely crazy to see. That was an ominous scene. Really dark. But you know what? I kind of want them on my side. I don't want to go against the Storks. The Sorks are freaking scary, dude.

My next pick is the Ocean Aguanas, who can hold their breath for 30 minutes. Those things that, I mean, that felt like we went back 300 million years. That looked like a damn dinosaur. Those were the adult versions of the iguanas from

planet Earth, too, that like wake up and then have to escape all the snakes. Oh, you know what? I don't know if I saw that. You didn't see that? That's the best scene. Okay. Oh, yeah, yeah.

Wait, is that where the guy's narrating it? Yeah, and then Marshall Lynch also narrated it once. Right, right, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, those are great. Yeah, these iguanas, man. They're swimming through the ocean. They're holding their breath for 30 minutes and they've got to come back on

and his massive rock climb up it. It gets easier when they're older, but not by much. Absolute Swiss Army knife, those iguanas. All right. Who's your last pick here? Vampire Finches. Oh, I had vampire finches.

Those things are crazy. So they're one of the world's newest species, and they've appeared on the Galapagos Islands, and they literally feast on blood. Dude, that was bizarre, because I was just waiting for the reason that this larger bird, which is the only other life source on the island,

lets them eat their blood. And then they were like, yeah, we don't know why. The bird just does it, and it's dumb. Well, and they're like, oh, the birds may be confused because the finches used to, like, pick the bugs off of them,

and they may think they're just doing that even though they're like digging into their flesh, unreal. That was stunning. You know what it is? That's, I want blood finches on my team because they want it. Like, they're gamers. Also, shouts, I just love that we named them vampire finches. Like, we didn't really beat around the bush with that.

We're like, you know what? Yeah, we're going to call them vampire finches. It's a good, you need a good name. You need a good name. For everything, you got to have a good name. All right. Last question for you. You think we're going to figure out this whole climate change thing?

I mean, I think we got it under control. You know what? David Attenborough went back and forth in that final episode. He did. He kind of hit you and then he brings you back. And he hits you and he's like, oh, but people are, oh, you know, the rainforest, there was some crazy thing about the Amazon forest is reducing by two football fields every minute. Two soccer fields, because they call it pitches. So, yes, two soccer fields a day.

No, sorry, two soccer fields every minute. Every minute of trees. But then, so then that hit you and you like want to slip into a depression, but then they're like, oh, but these people are planting 60,000 trees a month or something. and you're like, okay. So I don't feel great about it. You know, I'm obviously taken, you know, we're the underdogs, I would say, to come back and save this planet.

For sure, underdogs. Yeah, thanks, boomers. We really appreciate that one. But I do think that the past few nature series in this kind of lineage were a little too depressing because you have to explain the scope of the problem. But I think the thing we've learned last 10 years is when you explain the scope,

we all get depressed and feel absolutely nothing we can do in our lives are meaningless. I did like the raise of hope of like actually you can help. And I think that it was important to be like, oh no, you know what? Maybe we can fix this thing. Dig ourselves out of the hole. Totally agree. High Vitz, you and I.

Let's start planting some trees. I'd be honored.