The Ringer NFL Show - Jets Therapy With Sean Fennessey and NFL Draft WR Best/Worst-Case Scenario

Episode Date: April 7, 2021

Lifelong Jets fan Sean Fennessey steps into our office to talk about Sam Darnold and the Jets in a session of Fantasy Therapy. Then we provide the worst- and best-case scenario for wide receivers and tight ends in the NFL draft by comparing them to current NFL players and predicting whose careers they could potentially replicate. Jets Therapy (1:30) WR Ja’Marr Chase, LSU (37:31) TE Kyle Pitts, Florida (45:47) WR Devonta Smith, Alabama (58:35) WR Jaylen Waddle, Alabama (66:36) Email us! [e-mail] Hosts: Danny Heifetz, Danny Kelly, and Craig Horlbeck Guest: Sean Fennessey Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up everybody? I'm John G. Stremski, born and raised New Yorker and a long-time sports radio host. And I'm here to tell you about my new podcast, New York, New York, with JJ. The first podcast on The Ringer and Spotify dedicated to you, the New York sports fan. I'll be giving you my thoughts on all the teams, plus fantastic guests, gambling picks, and thoughts from you. We'll be coming to you on Sunday, Tuesday, and Thursday nights, plus bonus episodes, whenever I got to get something off my chest. Make sure you follow the show on Spotify. Welcome to the Ringer Fantasy football show.

My name is Danny Heifitz. I'm here at Danny Kelly and Craig Coralbeck. And in a moment, we're going to get to the past catchers in this year's draft. It is obvious the top five is going to be the quarterbacks. And then after that, it's going to be with a handful of transcendent. I don't know, past catchers. D.K. is going to break them down from a scale of, I don't know, Nelson Aguilore to Jerry Rice. We'll figure it out.

But first, we have Sean Fennacy, Ringer Head of Content, Ringerhead of Jets, sadness, and just general sports status in general. it's going to come by for some Jets therapy. You know, I've gone to therapy for years now, real therapy, not sports therapy, and it's brought me great clarity. So we wanted to share that gift of clarity with someone who definitely needs it,

and Sean definitely needs it. So step into our office. Hi, Sean. Hi, Doc. Hi, Sean. Hi, Doc. Hi, Sean. Hi, Doc.

Thank you for coming today, Sean. We know it's been a turbulent time for you. This is not exactly the most traditional. therapy session, but we just wanted to know, you know, how you've been doing, man? How you've been holding up? Guys, thanks for checking in. Thanks for making the time for me on your busy schedules. I know you're seeing a lot of patients these days. Before we go any further, I did want to get some clarity on whether or not this is Freudian analysis or more youngian. Like, do you guys have a kind of a definitional doctoral perspective on psychology for fantasy? D.K. If it's changed the subject somehow.

I don't know. I would say Freudian. I would say sports is definitely like sins of the parents. So I think Freudian is probably where this comes from. So on that note, I'm curious, how long have you been a Jets fan? Where did you get that disease from? I certainly got it from my father, speaking of Freud, who cursed me and my siblings with the larded, the weighted, the devious past of Jets fandom. And frankly, the future of Jets fandom.

I've been a Jets fan for 38 years and a hundred and so days. It's been pretty painful for me. I'm working through it. I must say, I'm glad I'm here with you guys because I feel like I could be on the verge of a breakthrough. Oh, great. Wow. A psychological breakthrough and emotional breakthrough.

But a couple of things have to happen for that to take place. Some of them we can work through here, and the rest I need Joe Douglas to handle for me. So let's see if we can get a start on that. So before we get to the breakthrough, I kind of want to just give people maybe a little spot of where you've been in the past. We've got some notes here from some past sessions. And by notes, I mean slacks you've sent? You mind if you read some slacks you sent in the past? Sure, sure. So we've got here, yeah, the Jets suck and should be destroyed. We've got from when the Jets drafted Christian Hakenberg, you wrote, I genuinely thought I was hallucinating.

you've got Josh McCown is Firmly the third greatest Jets quarterback ever That holds up You've got I really don't want the Jets to sign Levy on bail but I will be crushed if they miss out on him Unique emotion I have no recollection of any of these things To be clear these are these are slacks in the ringer slack

Like the NFL channel of Slack From the past three years My favorite is that you dropped a link in NFL Slack from ESPN that was headlined, Chad Pennington says Adam Gase will be a great hire for the Jets. And then you wrote, this is when dad explains why you're going to love your new stepbrother.

Just legendary pop-ins. I love that. That's just me helping you guys make content. You know, that's as much about my feelings as it is supporting you guys to write great takes. That's all I'm thinking about there. So with all that said, from that's where you're coming from, What was your first thought when Sam Darnold was traded?

And I'm curious how you got from there to a potential breakthrough. It's such mixed emotions. You guys know we've worked together for years now that I was hopeful. And I don't know if I would say optimistic, but cautiously buoyant about Sam as a talent, as a prospect, and as my son. And he's been a good son. You know, he's a good kid. he has he has weathered an impossible storm as a New York Jets quarterback between Adam Gase and Mike McCagnan and the utter chicanery and frankly mono mononucleosis and in the face of all of

those things he has he has performed admirably as a human as a football player and as a fan of his football team he's been quite poor um he's been he's been a disappoint more and I I want to I wanted a lot more from him. And, you know, I heard you guys talking about him on the Ringer NFL show. And I heard you talking about the failures of the Jets offense over the years. And first of all, Dr. Hyfetz, I want to say thank you so much for identifying that Sam has had very little support on the offensive line and in the skill position players. That being said, I've watched every single snap that Sam has played in my lifetime. And he is not good at figuring out who to throw the ball to, which is, that's key.

That's key. That is the essence of his position, I think, is the most important thing that you can do is identify the right human to send the ball to. And he throws it well and often to the wrong person. Perfectly worded. So it's very hard for me to disentangle my feelings of fatherhood and fandom. And that's really where I'm at. You describe him like a clumsy puppy who you love, but you can't catch the ball when you play fetch with them.

I mean, he does have that kind of bearing, right? You know, his physical presence is like he's, he's very smiley, and he's got this gigantic cranium, you know, and it's full of all this brain activity. And, you know, he has like a great spirit. And he seems like a really good person, like a nice person. And so it has always made it hard. And obviously that infamous moment when he was seeing ghosts out there during the Monday Night football game was, you know, so heavily mocked because Lowell Jets,

and we all understand that the Jets are a laughing stock. But that was one of the most human moments I've ever seen a professional athlete have captured on camera. I mean, that's very rare to see someone say, I'm just cooked out there. I got no idea what I'm doing. You know, it's the opposite of what we're taught to expect from our athletes. So he's been a very unique presence in my life. And I will say, I'm glad he's out. I think it was time for him to go.

You've abandoned your child. I've abandoned my boy. two-part question part one I'll ask both the questions then you can get to them do you think anything would have been different

had and I don't remember what channel it was had they not done the out indefinitely graphic and part two do you feel

that Adam Gase gets too much blame for Darnold's failure or not enough both good questions the outing definitely is

it's impossible to know the truth about that, there is no circumstance in which it helped. I think any of us who have been memed at even the most modest of circumstances, we meme each other here at the ringer from time to time. Getting memed, it seems great for like one second because you're like, wow, somebody noticed I'm alive and that I once said something that was worthy of a meme. And then everything that happens after that is horrible. And I imagine that for Sam, this has been horrible. And it has shattered his confidence and it has made him seem like more of a joke to Jets fans. So that's not great.

what was your second question doctor do you feel that adam gase gets too much blame for darnell's failure or not enough i don't think we'll know the answer to that until we find out whether or not sam's going to be tannhill 2.0 which certainly seems plausible it certainly seems like he's going to a situation with a good coach with a good oc with three or four quality skill position players like panther's line is not so great and that has frankly been an issue for sam in his whole career. But if he does turn out to be an above average quarterback, a top 15 quarterback, and Carolina goes to the playoffs next year, then I think it's pretty safe to assume Adam Gase is the worst quarterback coach of the last 20 years. I mean, he would be responsible for diminishing the

value of two highly drafted, highly rated young QBs. He actively hurt their stock, if that turns out to be true. Would you want Sam Donald to become Tannahill 2.0 on the Jets? Is that something that you would ever yearn for? On the Jets. or on the Panthers? On the Jets? If they got rid of Gates, now we have Robert Sahl. If this is possible for Sam Darnal,

would you have wanted that to happen on the Jets? Well, this is not about my feelings. This is about the wonkery of the NFL, but it's all financial. At this stage of his career, he costs too much money to still be a developmental quarterback. And so if he is just going to be purely developmental next year

and 20 touchdowns and 18 interceptions, which would be an improvement on this past season, for $20 million. on the cap, that's not good enough, unfortunately. We can't, we can't account for that. So if he becomes Tannhill 2.0 on another team, I think I would be independently happy for him

if the Jets' new quarterback, my new son, is elite. And that's what I'm hoping for. So you sound like you're in a good space with Sam. I wanted to ask you, let's say a couple months from now, you know, it's July, it's August, you're double-vaxed, you're out of the bar, Venice, sun's out,

three pale ales deep. Sam Darnold's there. Are you talking about me or you, Craig? I honestly can't tell. Hopefully, that's a different side. Hopefully both of us. Damn it, he turned it around on us. I might be more than three pale ales deep.

Sean, Sam Darnold's there. Chris just pale. He's at the bar with you. He walks up to you, says hi. What do you say to Sam Darnel? I'm sorry I wrote those things about the size of your head. He just said he's, get a large cranium.

Before the draft, didn't a scout say you in a bad face? Bad face. They didn't say bad face. Mallory Grubin has used that phrase to me about Sam north of 30 times in the last three years. I would, if he approached me and recognized me, one, what a mitzvah for me. I mean, to be recognized by a pro athlete, that's fantastic. That means I've really done it. Two, I would just want him to be happy.

You know, I would probably affect Robin Williams in Goodwill Hunting. It's not your fault. It's not your fault. It wasn't his fault. I mean, I think he did some things that were upsetting and perilous at times. But it was not his fault. He was not put in a position to succeed. So let's transition to the next chapter here. Obviously, you've been hurt a lot before by Jets draft picks, by coaching hires. How are we feeling about Zach Wilson? Are you tempering your expectations? Are you in a hope for the best, prepare for the worst type of mode? Are you all in? Or do you? Are you ready to be heard again? Where are you at? I've given this so much thought. Thank you for asking. I am protecting myself in the best way I know how, which is to publicly say on this podcast, I don't want them to draft Zach Wilson.

Oh! I want them to draft Justin Fields. Since I saw him play against Clemson, that is who I have wanted to be the quarterback, knowing that they were not going to get Trevor Lawrence. I am immensely impressed with him. I've obviously been reading DK's draft boards for weeks now, salivating over the possibility of fields.

And I think there is a tiny possibility that this is all one big faint and they might actually go for fields. But if they... So here's what happens. Let's say that I... That's not the case. Let's say that they draft Zach Wilson

and Zach Wilson sucks. This is just one big hedge for you. Yes. If Zach Wilson sucks, I was right to say they should have drafted fields. Yeah. If Zach Wilson is good,

that I'm content to be wrong. I'm wrong frequently. That's just gravy. point. And the Jets are good. And they finally have their franchise quarterback. And that's pretty much it. Now, if they draft Trey Lance or God forbid Mac Jones, I might have to quit the Jets. So I've been in this position before. I was in this position three years ago where there was some confusion around should they draft Baker, should they draft Josh Allen, should they draft Josh Rosen. And there is historical precedent here with the Jets because famously they drafted Richard Todd many years ago.

the next quarterback drafted after Richard Todd was, of course, Dan Marino. And Dan Marino was heavily favored to go to the Jets that season. How did that work out? Well, quite poorly. And frankly, I think that Sam Darnold could turn out to be the new Richard Todd because Josh Allen was drafted shortly thereafter. And Josh Allen, I don't know if he's going to be Dan Marino, but he certainly seems like he's going to be a top five quarterback for the next few years.

So it's a familiar situation. I think that that same situation could actually happen this year. If they draft Zach Wilson, he doesn't develop. he's not prepared to play against NFL defenses after one season of quality play for BYU. And then Justin Fields turns out to be the second coming of, I don't even, Steve McNair? I don't know, who is he going to be? I mean, he's just a tremendous Camdun or Dak Prescott, yeah. I mean, he's just a, he's clearly a tremendous physical talent with a great arm who also had his spine broken on the field and then got up and through a 40-yard touchdown pass.

That was insane. Do you guys remember when that happens? Four more touchdowns. In like 20 minutes. He threw four touchdowns after that. It was just a legendary performance. I know everyone's like, does he love football?

What the hell are people talking about? This is insane. If he doesn't love football, I don't know what he does love. Yeah. Sean, I mean, Zach Wilson's not the only story. I mean,

the Jets have had a particularly sexy off-season. They got Robert Sala. They brought in Mike LaFleur. We got some receiver help for Mims. You guys brought in Cory Davis, Keel and Cole. You got some defensive help here. When's the last time you felt this good about a Jets off season?

Let's just go back real quick to Michael Flore for a second. So this is the unique circumstance where there's a guy who virtually no one knows anything about, but he has a successful brother. And they're like, so this guy must be good. With almost exactly the same name. So you just can't even really separate the two. I mean this with no shots because I like the idea of a Shanahan influenced offense. But seriously, who is Michael Flore?

Why am I supposed to think that that's amazing? The real answer here? The real answer is that Kyle Shanahan and Robert Sala, like Robert Sala was roommates with Matt Lafleur in college. And then one of them, I don't remember which, was friends with Kyle. And then they all started working for Mike Shanahan for Washington. So it was just like they hired Kyle Shanahan, the son of the coach, and then they hired the coach's friends.

And then they hired the coach's friend's little brother. They go to San Francisco. And now this college roommate group that used to hang out off campus. is now running for NFL teams. It does happen. It definitely does happen. But I have some concerns. Now, Robert Sala, it seems like a very exciting and frankly Rex Ryan-esque figure.

He's a fiery defensive coordinator who players love to play for. And the Jets have had by far their biggest success of the last 30 years playing under Rex Ryan for the first few years of his stint. And it seems like based on the testimony of Carl Lawson, Corey Davis, the handful of quality players

who signed in the offseason, they're psyched about Sala. But Michael LaFleur has never developed a quarterback and I, you know, I, and I am excited about Denzel Mims, but Denzel Mims is not Justin Jefferson. So, you know, I think the Jets are going six and ten.

Like, kind of no matter what happens here. So I don't know, like, am I supposed to be pumped up about their off season? What do you think? You guys tell me. I mean, I would just say, let's say you're not excited about the team and its success, like overall in the win-loss column. What are you excited about from a fantasy point of view?

Because this is ostensibly a fantasy podcast. Ostensibly. Ostensibly. P. Davis, Denzo Mims. Like, is Le Michael P. Ryan starting running back there? How are we feeling about that? Is Chris Herndon finally going to be a thing? Give us your thoughts on some of the main fantasy contributors.

of this team. So broadly speaking, I think the reason to be excited as a Jets fan is it seems like Joe Douglas knows what he's doing. And Joe Douglas has accumulated an extraordinary number of draft picks over the next three seasons. I thought his draft track record last season was a little bit iffy. Obviously,

the Bechtin pick was really strong and it does seem like Mims is going to be a quality player. I think every pick after that was a little bit of a reach, honestly. And I don't know if there are any Ashton Davis heads out there, but I was not super impressed with Ashton Davis's first season of play. However, I do think They have two first round picks this season.

And I think that their second round pick is likely to be a running back. And maybe even Travis Etienne. And if it is Travis Etienne, then Michael P. Ryan is not going to be a player of concern. Honestly, he'll be a third downback. And that's cool. Devastating news for me personally. So on that note, I'm just curious. Big P. Ryan head here.

But that's fine. He was, he was, he was extraordinarily usual. he was like the most average regular player I've ever seen but not bad extraordinarily usually used me to ordinary he was a regular dude he was just a dude

we debated starting to show with Piron so you mentioned the two first round picks this year I'm curious if you're optimistic because it's not just two first round picks it's also two third round picks I think you have ten picks this draft you have two firsts and two seconds next year's draft

but on the other hand your last 10 first round picks for the Jets not one has signed a second contract with the team they've all been or traded. And then the last two years we'll see. Is this the Freudian part of the analysis? Maybe. I'm just curious if you're optimistic about Joe Douglas knowing what he's doing because he's different than the last, or if you're just, you kind of still have your guard up. Well, I've been teasing another one of your clients about how, you know, the wrong kid died when

it comes to the Howie Roseman Joe Douglas Eagles situation and how everything that Howie has done, I think since Joe D. left has been quite questionable. And, and, that Joe seems to have... He seems to be holding all the cards right now. I honestly don't... I don't know. I like the idea of asset accumulation. I think that they were right

to make the trades that they made because he wanted to have a fresh start with his regime. The problem with that is his regime starts as soon as he picks a quarterback. So he'll have a quarterback that will be lined up with a coach. Once you have a QB and a coach,

his kind of like 18-month, 20-month interregnum as the like soft GM of the team cleaning up after Mike McCagnan is over, and now it really starts. And now he'll be judged as harshly as New York sports GMs are judged. And Danny Hafeitz, you know this well,

that it can be an unforgiving space to be someone who has chosen a QB of the future, and then that QB of the future looks like Dan, Dan Jones, and it's like, okay, this guy is the 18th best quarterback at best in the NFL. What do we do now? Do we just try to sign as many good players as we can to make him look better?

Or do we start over? the Jets started over. They didn't try to make Sam Darnold into the 18th best quarterback. So generally speaking, I'm pro Joe Douglas. I've been impressed with his ability to get a lot of value

for Jamal Adams. Sorry, D.K. A lot of value for... For Sam Donald. I mean, you got a second round pick for Sam Donald with the full understanding that he was not going to be the quarterback.

And no other bidders. Well, I read today that Denver was also in on him. There you go. I think there was some soft bidders like teams that were slightly interested in if things fell a certain way. So it's not like they had no options. But what would you, so what would you guys do? Like specifically, if you were Joe Douglas and you've got basically a clean slate,

you're committed to three players two years from now and that's it. And you've got 35 draft picks in the next three years. What are you doing? This is exactly what I would do. Personally, like, I would move on from Darnold. I would have draft Justin Fields, but that's just me. I do like Zach Wilson. I think Zach Wilson will be a good pro.

But I just think Justin Fields is an exceptional prospect. So I would probably, you know, I would do what they did. I'd, you know, accumulate a lot of picks, start to build it up, make some targeted moves in free agency, nothing like too flashy. And then work from there. I mean, there's no like one thing that any GM can do. Otherwise it would be an easier job, right? But I mean, I think I agree with you. I think so far I've been impressed.

You know, I think I saw a metric or stat or something that said they have more top 100 picks over the next two years than any other team. And that's exactly what you want as a GM. So they're doing that right. Yeah. And I think that to D.K.'s point, it's really important to remember, as you said, Sean, about like the cleanup period. The Jets made the most bizarre decision I can remember from a team in recent memory, which was they let Mike McCagning give at $120 million guaranteed as their GM, draft a team, and then fired him. I don't even have like a comparison for why you would let someone do that. So Joe Douglas inherited Levy on bail and all these contracts, C.J. Mosley, that he did not want and did not work.

And we're honestly some of the worst free agent contracts that have been handed out in recent times. So what he's done since then, Bill talked to him on the emergency pod about the dolphins have been crushing every move. The jets have actually quietly done really well. But that's just putting out the fire. Now you have to like rebuild the house. To your point, I think that they actually. I really like the Carl Lawson signing a defensive end because I think the system that Sala wants to build. It's one thing to say like, hey, cool, we'll just like play really hard and like execute.

They need a pass rush. They have five first rounders for the Niners. They need a pass rush. You guys don't have any cornerbacks either. I would get a second defensive end who's really good because that will make all the cornerbacks better because if you have one good cornerback, you have one good cornerback. If you get three good pass rushers, you have like five decent cornerbacks. That's easier.

And then just protect who the quarterback is and don't fuck it up. And Corey Davis, I like too, because he's a good blocker and, like, he can do a lot of different things. But I can't disagree with a lot what Douglas has done. I have to ask you guys another question. So this is, I'm really bearing my soul here. Last night, there was an epic Mets meltdown in their first game of the season, right? So in addition to being a Jets fan, I'm a Mets fan. And I just, I didn't handle it well.

I didn't handle it well. I'm usually a very even keel. Do you guys know we've known each other for years now? Level-headed, rational person. You've never raised your voice, except. for the Jets in the entire time. That was another slack I think in prayer. Yes. So I having a hard time last night kind of coping with my met stuff, coping with the loss of my boy, Sam, and raising my voice a little bit in the house. And my wife literally like pulls me aside. And she's like,

listen, this can't go on much longer. You can't act like this about sports. It's not okay. And my wife and I have a great relationship. I love her more than anything in the world. But she was genuinely concerned about my mental state of mind. So this is a well-timed session for us. But honestly, like, what do I, what does a fan do who is so bent out of shape about

their team's fortunes? Because I don't have an, I didn't have an answer for her. Nialism. Really, is my answer. It's becoming a, it's becoming a bit of like too much of a bit that I'm like a nihilist and we're all just specks of dust floating through cosmic

infinity. But really it does help. When I think of it that way, like, what the fuck do we care about this? Let's be honest. But you have a Super Bowl under your belt as a fan, Danny. Yeah, and he's still unhappy. Shouldn't that prove everything?

You'll never be happy. No, I have a Super Bowl. I have a Super Bowl under my belt. I do. Like, I'm the one who did it. But I also have fucking the next year, what happened. And I'm not even going to say it what happened.

But you guys all saw what happened. And that changes a person. And so anyways, what's worse, like, being that close to having the legacy of, like, the greatest defense of all time and, like, being a, quote, dynasty, like even like a mini dynasty, like, maybe like a Cowboys dynasty where it's like, you know, two Super Bowls? I have no time for this, D.K. Versus being, like, just a perennial terrible team. No, no, no. Look, I'm a fan of the Mariners. I'm a fan of the Mariners, all right? Let's circle back

This is not DK therapy No, let's circle back here Let's go back to Seahawks therapy What's worse? You have one extraordinary Super Bowl win In almost two And the second one would have been amazing Given who you were playing

Craig, you also have multiple Super Bowl victories For the team that you root for in your lifetime And Danny, you also have multiple Super Bowl victories For the team of you root for in your lifetime So frankly, I'm disinterested in any of these doctors' opinions on how to cope with the inability to win Because you don't know He's like frankly, fuck you

you have no grounds to be therapist. What do you know about making people? Show me your degrees. Well, to be clear, we believe in holistic treatment. There's my degree here. We believe in holistic treatment and you are jets, Mets, NICs, and basically have disaffiliated from the Nix because it's too painful to do all three at the same time.

Although I feel great about them. I feel great about them right now because they have figured out that what you should do is hire competent people. It's an extraordinary idea, but they've hired two, confident people to run their franchise and it's working. I'm so excited about that. If I can offer a response to what do you do? I don't want to be like wait because it's like, well, that's annoying. But I actually think that this is like, look, I'm a Yankees, Giants, Knicks fan. And obviously, Yankees, Giants, Mets, Jets. There's a lot of looking down and we're kind of assholes about it.

But the times are kind of changing. Like, I remember Bill talked about there was like a small window for Knicks fans to flip to the Nets if they wanted. And I don't think a lot of Nix fans did. I think if the Nets win the championship, they maybe, would. But there's a weird moment here where the Jets, the Knicks, and the Mets all seem to be run by smart, competent people quietly at the same time right now. It is a title shift. And there is a strange belief in the leadership of all three organizations at the same time for the first time since I've been alive. I think you're right. I hope you're right. It's pretty much, I'm hinging the rest of my existence as a sports fan on that very premise. And if it doesn't work out,

then I might have to call it quits, guys. So we shall see. We'll see. I want to talk a little bit before we go here about the reputation of the Jets, New York sports teams as a whole, but really specifically the Jets. And I was kind of looking around

and I wanted to toss some numbers at you first and then ask you a question here, Sean. Since the year 2000, the Jets are tied for the 22nd most wins as a team. No, it's not great, but the 22nd most wins as a team. I think most people would probably be surprised by that. I think they thought it would be lower. They've been in a 500

or better team in 11 of their last 20 seasons. They have more playoff wins than 15 other NFL teams in the last 20 seasons. Teams like Cleveland, Detroit, Cincinnati, Jacksonville, Houston, and the Raiders have all had objectively worse last two decades than the Jets. Yet

I still think the Jets fall atop the list of the most embarrassing NFL franchises. Do the Jets have a bad rap? I'm glad you asked. I've given this a lot of thought. Let's just take all of those data points and apply them to the last 10 years. Because of the last 10 years, I would imagine that they are near the bottom, if not the bottom. They now have the longest active streak

of any team not to reach the playoffs, which I believe is 10 years since the Browns made the playoffs last season. And they are historically bad in all offensive categories in the last decade. In addition to that, they're also a team that spans 55 years of incompetency. Essentially, since their inaugural season, with the one exception of Super Bowl 3, they've been a profoundly unsuccessful team. And in addition to that, it's not just your sort of run-of-the-mill failure. The Lions, for example, are a run-of-the-mill failure team. Now, their fans are tortured, and I don't mean to take anything away from the Lions fans, but there has been a kind of averageness to their inability to be successful. The Jets are operatically bad. And there's a gigantic media operation

that surrounds the Jets, that relishes their badness. And so when something like the butt fumble happens, it becomes a cultural event. That was a cultural event that a man ran into another man's ass. And if that had happened in a, I don't know, a Vikings Texans game, it would have been memorable. It would have been on SportsCenter.

But it would not have become something that people still tweet at me to this day. But on a stray Sunday, if I tweet something about a movie I like, people will literally just reply with a butt fumble giff. And that is, that is Jets fandom right there. So honestly, like, I don't, I don't know, I don't know what to say.

I, I feel like it's reasonable the fact that we are our laughing stock. It might even just be the last five years. I mean, from 2010 to 2015, they were like a 500 team. Like, it might just be the, the gays era and slightly before that when you had, you know, Josh McCown for a little bit. But, but, okay, let's, let's put even that in perspective. Who was the coach before Adam Gase? Todd Bowles.

Todd Bowles has just spent the last year being called the greatest defensive mind in the NFL. He just won a Super Bowl. And I never once heard one person say anything about Todd Bulls did with the Jets during this entire Buccaneers run. People were like, well, it's well understood this guy's one of the great defensive minds of the NFL in the last 10 years. So good for him.

Kudos to him for figuring out what to do with Levanti David. Like, what the fuck, man? This guy coached the Jets for three years and they were terrible. Four years. What happened? By the way, I was looking up, so someone I pointed out, like, Sam Darnold hasn't been under Only Gase. And I was like, I can't even remember who was his first OC?

I looked it up. Jeremy Bates, who, he, he hasn't, he's not even in the league, first of all, which is a bad sign, right? He does not have an NFL job. I'm pretty sure he's, like, hiking the Cumberland Gap or something right now. So, like, it's worse than Gase. doesn't even have a job. Like, Gase is going to get hired again.

Who was their O.C? Bates was their quarterback coach or their O.C? Let me double check this. So it was the 2018 Jets, 2017 Jets. Offensive coordinator quarterbacks is Jeremy Bates. Okay, that's terrifying.

I mean, there's a famous quote from Christopher Johnson, one of the owners, or maybe it was Woody Johnson, one of the owners of the Jets, who, after Sam Darner was drafted in 2018, he said, we will look back on this day as the day

that the New York Jets franchise turned things around and became one of the most important franchises in football. And he handed the person who inspired that quote to Jeremy Bates. This is a clown show.

This has been a clown show for decades. And it seems like it's not going to be a clown show and that's why I feel comfortable coming to therapy and seeing you guys and talking about my feelings

because I feel like I might not have to come back. I feel like if the draft goes well, I'll be paying very close attention on April 29th with the decisions that they make. We might be at the start of something fresh and new and exciting. But I've also been in these shoes before and I've been hurt. I feel good, guys. How do you guys feel about Sean's mental state? I'm feeling pretty good about it.

He's better than Chris and the Eagles won the Super Bowl like five years ago. I mean, we turned a corner at the very end. I like it. We're absolutely thrilled with your progress. Sean, is there anything else you'd like to share? Do you guys do this for baseball too? Oh, we can talk about the Mets. I mean, honestly, I feel like we're still getting our degree.

Yeah, it's a different area. You're trying to get a client base in football, but then, you know, I'm waiting for the A's to let up less than eight runs, and then I can talk about baseball. John Jostromsky, shout out New York, New York. I appreciate the measured, careful way you treated me today. I know you felt you were dealing with a toxic, quantitative. Z. And I do feel a little bit better. And I'm going to report back to my wife and tell her that I may be a changed man.

And maybe she'll bring me around. This is actually good, good timing. Man, I feel good. So, all right. Thank you, Sean. Thank you for coming in today. That will be, was it, $700. You can Venmo less. We'll bill you. Bill you via Venmo in the coming days. We can change the title of it so your wife doesn't see if you need. We could figure all that out. No, I definitely use Venmo. You should definitely. definitely do that for sure.

2000 is the Venmo max, but we work around that. Wait, 700 each. Is that, is that what you should? Yeah, yeah. Listen, we don't need to get into that right now. Yeah, you get the hundred off. He's a friend of the program. This is a real scam.

All right. Thank you, Sean, for coming on. Thank you. There we go. Go, Zach Wilson. All right, let's talk about the draft. We know that quarterbacks are going one, two, three, maybe one, two, three, four.

But now it's also clear that the rest of the top ten or most of it is going to be rounded out by, like, playmakers, past catchers. So it's not just that that's going to be the top 10, but it's the way people are talking about these past catchers. It's like they're all special. It's like they're all different. So, DK, we kind of want you to just take us through the,

give us like a tour, but like a guy, you know, someone can give you like a real tour. We kind of want a real tour of like the top four pass catchers in this draft. Can you do that for us? Can I just say that this is great that this year is kind of like a fantasy draft, the real NFL draft? It is. It's a bunch of offensive players

for the first 10 picks. It's going to be crazy. It's like a 2 QB draft where it's like four quarterbacks and like all right receivers. Now what? Best receiver?

I'll just take the best receiver, best tight end. I guess it's not a fantasy draft because no running backs. But regardless, it is like good for fantasy. So, okay. First up,

I kind of want to hear about Jamar Chase from LSU. Do you believe that he's special? You've prepared like a little scale of one to 10 for us because we're going to do one to 10 and one of 10's boring. So you've prepared a special one to

10 for us. Yeah, so I guess the question was going to be like, on the number of scale, is he like a 1 versus a 10 on like the type of prospect? He is. Instead of doing that, we're just going to give you a sliding scale of players that he could either be like on the low end, here's a comp. Worse case scenario, best case scenario based on who they are. What players' careers could they emulate? Do you want to start with worst case? Yeah, start with worst case. All right. So the Jamar Chase sliding scale of comps, because everyone loves comps. let's just start off like Josh Doxon for instance who came out of the Washington pick he was the first rounder can I just say this I like Josh Doxon I still like Josh Doxon I really liked him I liked him he's like good jump ball guy like very good in the red zone that's obviously something that Chase is known known for well known for well he's well known for well he's well known for when I worked for Washington my first like my third day working for Washington like one of the first jobs I got where they were like just go like talk to Josh Doxon and like just learn everything about him and Just go talk to him.

And he just, he was in so much pain. How did that go? Well, he was in so much pain because he had a calf injury or foot injury or something. And he just basically went on to define his career, just lower body injuries. I mean, he's still in the league, I think. He needed a Josh doctor. Well done. Hope you're proud of that.

Wow. Wait, question, though. So do you just walk up to him and you're like, hey, I'm supposed to find that everything about you? Is that cool if I hang around? Or did you try and just naturally, like, be like, so? Well, it's practice. It's training camp. They come off the field, and it's like, there's like a media scrubs.

It's like you can just kind of grab them and they all just kind of try to like quickly walk past the reporters and don't make eye contact and hope no one talks to them. But if you ask, then they will either be polite or the veterans will just brusk you off and like no or if they don't know you. Would you say there's an art to like getting grabbing a player in the moment and getting them to talk to you? Yeah, the art is the right word. Brian Curtis. It's called the sidemen these days. Brian Curtis. Artists living among us.

Artists. All right. Maybe we'll have one talk about the side. one day when things are really slow. DK, sorry. There's a whole world. Yeah, anyway, Josh Doxon. I don't know how we got there.

Did you guys want to do this with every one of these comps, or do you want me to just read the list? We won't do an extended riff on all 10 players. I just jumped in because I was like, oh, Josh Doxon. All right. I'm going to read this list,

and so you can kind of like picture the spectrum here. Yeah, you go through it and then we'll comment after you. For Jamar Chase, to be clear, in case people forgot who we were talking about during the Josh Doxon rant. Yeah. Josh Doxon, Nelson Aguilar, Michael Gallup, Tyler Boyd, Brandon Ayuk, Chris Godwin, DJ Moore, O'Dell Beckham, skinny Anquan, Anquan, Bolton, and Devante Adams. So Devante Adams is 10, which is best case scenario.

Devante Adams is like my first and like the one that I'm still sticking with the comp. However, I will say Chase is, he came in a little bit smaller, I think, than everyone was expecting. He's like 6 foot 198 or 6 foot 201, I think he was. So he's not like a big receiver, but he plays big. So that was what I was trying to capture with some of these guys. Like Devante Adams clearly has some size on him, but he's a good route runner, good at the catch point, creates a late separation. Ankhorn Bolden, big physical guy, like a physical dominator, which is exactly what Jamar Chase is, even though he's not that big. Odell Beckham, incredible at the catch point, plays bigger than he is.

He has a huge catch radius, very athletic. Jamar Chase ran like a 4-3-9. So I think that's like, I originally would not have thought this, but like Odell Beckham is somewhere in that spectrum. So where on this list of 10 are you confident that Jamar Chase will come in? I think his realistic floor is like DJ Moore and above. Wow. Wow.

So seven, seven floor and you actually think 10 ceiling. Yeah. He's really good. A DJ, DJ more floor is, that's enticing. DJ floor. I think that was almost as bad as your Josh doctor joke. I'm interesting you of Skinny and Quarham Bolden here because I was thinking of Both terrible.

Cardinals. I've also heard him as like smaller Larry Fitzgerald. Yeah, exactly. Shoot, I should have put that on there. We still can. It's our pod. We can do whatever we want. There's no rules.

We made up the whole thing. It's just a Google Doc D.K. You can change it. Let's cut, let's cut Brandon Ayuk out and put Larry, like, skinny, what is it? Smaller Fits at the top there? You can put Larry Fitzgerald five out of ten. He's like second all time in receiving yards.

He's 10 out of 10. Called down. In spite of one, Jesus Christ. Yes. That's what I was saying. just have very defensive fits at the top. I know, geez,

you just really were letting me have it. No, take Ayuk out completely because he hasn't really proven himself anyway. And then, so like small Larry Fitz

is the platonic ideal. What reminds you about Larry Fitz of them? Physicality, really good at the catch point, can pick up yards of the catch acceleration, just overall baller status.

Yeah, that kind of stuff. I, you know, I get, maybe it's a recency bias with like Larry Fitz getting older, but I, when I think of Larry Fits, I don't think of O'Dell or DJ Moore. Do you guys, Devante Adams? No, and that's like, I think the hard part. Well, this, so we're saying, what is it? Smaller. No, I'm going to sit here and say they, personality-wise, O'Dell and

Larry have nothing in common. But like, as players, Larry, Larry was the jump ball guy before Calvin, and then O'Dell got the jump ball title from Calvin Johnson and then now DeAndre Hopkins has it. then also Larry was a yards after the catch guy. He's been so old for so long. We kind of forget, like, he was, like, O'Dell's thing of, like, you can take a slant 80 yards.

Like, Larry Fitz was really good. Didn't he do that in the Super Bowl? Yeah, remember that play in, I think it was the Super Bowl? Against the Steelers. Oh, you blocked it out of your mind. It was against the Steelers. You know what, by the way,

speaking of that, I've wanted a reason to bring this up. The reverse stiff arm is like the coolest play in football. Like when you have the wrong arm? No, he's saying like you're running, forward. Correct. And you push somebody backwards. Normally, like a stiff

arm you see, it's like a guy is like bouncing it to the outside and you see a, you see a guy coming towards the sideline and then you stiff arm him down. But like, the reverse stiff arm is basically when you catch the ball and a guy is coming up from behind you and you stiff arm the hell out of him and he just like flails

and falls and then you keep running. Isn't that the play where Larry looks up at the screen and is seeing if anybody's behind him? Oh yeah, and the Super Bowl. Well, the crazy thing about that Super Bowl for Larry Fifth, was like when the James Harrison interception, the honestly sliding doors moment in football history is that Larry Fitz could have caught James Harrison at the 30-yard line

and then he ran into Rodney Hood, the safety, who was too close to the field. He's just like right up against the green, like watching James Harrison. Larry Fitzgerald, just full-on collides with him, spins and then Larry's still the guy who brings James Harrison down at the two-yard line. He would have caught him and they would have maybe won the Super Bowl, but don't get near the sideline. That's so far off topic.

D.K. Meccaf should only be on teams with quarterbacks that throw a ton of picks so he can prevent all of them from being pick sixes. It's like automatic quarterback and flag football. He's just automatic defender bill sets. Okay. Let me round out Jamar Chase though to like one sort of thought or like clarify kind of like how I look at him.

Number one, I think the bottom line is he's a physically dominant receiver. He's physically, he's very, very physical, strong and like extremely competitive. with the ball in the air. I see that with fits. I see that with Adams. Obviously with Bolden.

Beckham, it's starting to get a little more like, you got to like define what you're looking at. But like DJ Moore, I think is a good one too. Like very physical yards after the captain. Beckham, they went to LSU. It's like all right. Yeah. So anyways.

I like doing this a lot because in the past, like even though like all these comps are great, and you can read Devonte Adams once. But usually when they talk about these guys like, like D.K., you're saying like great physicality. Like great off the ball. Great of the kettle. point, like, it's hard for me to visualize that, like, because all these guys have such similar attributes when you compliment them. But now reading this group of guys, like, when I see

Larry Fitz, Devonti Adams, Bolden, DJ Moore, Godwin, like, I can now visualize who Jamar Chase is similar to, which is really helpful. Yeah, yeah. So the next guy I want to hit here, Kyle Pitts, the tight end from Florida, he is being discussed unlike any tight end I've ever heard. At first, it was like, oh, like, the best tight end in a while. And it's like, no, like, I can't remember, maybe I'm just biased like Jeremy Shockey with the Giants. Like I cannot remember the last time people are like, like, usually people analyzing drafts are pretty hesitant to throw out like the word Hall of Fame, but people are doing it with Kyle Fitz. Like, yeah, yeah. Is he that good? And then what's the, I don't even know what the spectrum looks like for a tight end. Was he this good in

college, DK? Was he like Hall of Fame good at Florida? I mean, he was pretty damn good. And if you're paying attention to like college football Twitter over the last few months of the college season, it was Kyle Pitts hype like every Saturday or whenever they're playing the games. So I would say, yeah, the hype has always been very strong at least the last few months.

I will say it has snowballed to the point where he's become the unicorn and like Khyvet said, the future Hall of Fame are like this guy is locked in basically as the best player in this draft, that's not a quarterback, like the best non-quarterback in this draft, most talented. His pro day also kind of helped that out

because he had, it was like an 83 and a 3 eighth inch wingspan, which is like unheard of, never before, tracked before. He's like got this incredible length. He's like a 4-4 guy at 240 pounds, 6 foot 6. He's just built sort of uniquely. Isn't the speed score, which is just like adjusting your 40-8 for your weight? Isn't his speed score better than Henry Ruggs? That wouldn't surprise me.

Yeah, it would not surprise me. It gives you an idea of like how this guy can move, like the wheels on this. guy. So what's his what's his scale here? Yeah, give us the one through 10. The tight end thing I think is difficult and I might do an audible in here and like throw in an extra guy because I do think that it's important to point this out. But like on the low end, say he's like a complete bust and ends up being just an athletic freak who just turns out to not be very good at football. A couple guys come to mind, Virgil Green and Dustin Keller. Do you guys remember Virgil Green? I mean, he's probably still in the league. It's just like athletes.

Yeah. Classic, like, athletic tight end who, like, didn't even have the profile picture up on the fantasy websites. It was just, like, this, like, cut out with just like, he's really talented. So, and then Dustin Keller was another guy who had, like, a lot of hype and very, very athletic, sort of rare athleticism. And he made some plays in his career, but never really panned out. And then we're getting into some stylistic comps. Evan Ingram, extremely fast, moved tight-end type of guy, Jordan Reed, Jared Cook. cook, by the way, was, you know, another guy had just incredible, incredible speed score,

athleticism, explosiveness. He's another one who's anchored by his old age and his career lasting so long. Quietly ended Drew Breese's career with, like, that fumble late against the bucks in the playoffs, but that's the other end it. I don't want to put that in, but. Ended Breese's 41-year-old career, yeah. So, and for the record, for people listening, like, I went on mock draft bowl and I was, like, doing, like, athletic comps, like, trying to get, try to get a little,

scientific about this and finding the most athletic like tight ends slash past catchers of the last 15, 20 years or whatever to like throughout useful comp. So Darren Waller, I think is like the most common one that you hear about with respect to Pitts. Greg Olson, his numbers were insane. Like this dude is incredibly incredibly athletic and slightly different size. Like he was more of like 250 something plus pounds. Pitts is a little lighter.

And then I'm going to add in a couple here, or add in one. He's like almost identical testing-wise to Mike Evans, which I think is, yeah, which is, I think, interesting. He's the athlete that Mike Evans is, but he's like 20 pounds heavier. So while there's like a six out of ten, Greg Olson's since the seven at ten, and then, like, on the scale, and then Mike Evans is like the seven and a half. Yeah, so like if you're looking for the Mike Evans of the world, but like at tight end, this is what you're going to get. And then we get into some of the all-time greats, or at least like, you know, this era, Vernon Davis, Tony Gonzalez,

who I'd say is like in the previous generation, but one of the all-time grades, he's not, he already is a Hall of Famer, I believe, right? If he isn't, he should be anytime soon here. And then the one guy that is like the pie in this guy, this is like for the older generation, Kellynne Winslow Sr., who was one of the first, quote,

like, move tight ends ever in the NFL. he like revolutionized he he was part of the revolution where you start moving tight ends around the formation and using them you know as receivers all that stuff so um just throw that out there but i think really like to kind of keep us more grounded in like recent like time periods tony gonzalez vernon davis mike evans are sort of like the stylistic concepts i would throw out there like a thicker mike evans so people are talking about the bengals taking kyle pits at five the falcons taking kyle pits at four the dolphins taking kallpits at six I wouldn't take any of these guys that high except for Tony Gonzalez.

But like, would Darren Waller, like, would you take him with the fifth pick in the draft or Greg Olson or someone? That's tough. Probably not. I think that and that speaks to this like the, I think I would take Tony Gonzalez. That's what he was. He said Tony Gonzalez. Well, yeah, Tony Gonzalez is one of the three best dead ends of all time. Vernon Davis, he was a little bit of a disappointment, but he was a top 10 pick too, I believe.

So, you know, if you're talking about Kellan-Lenzel Sr., Tony Gonzalez, Mike Evans, I would definitely take all those guys in the top ten. So I guess, like, what that tells us, that's a very interesting way of putting it high fits is maybe the range of outcomes for Pitts is you're going to have to really,

if he's going to be a top-10 pick, you're going to really have to hit the high end for it to be worthwhile. And that's what people are afraid of. When you say unicorn, a tight end, I think of Gronk and Kittle, because Gronk and Kittle were both at different periods, one of the best receiving tight ends in football,

top one, two, three, and then also at different periods at the same time were the best blocking tight end in football. Grank was the best blocking tight end and leading the league in touchdowns of reception and receiving yards. And then Kittl also was setting the record all time for tight end receiving yards

and with the highest graded blocker. So like Kyle Pitts isn't quite that level of blocker. And the person I'm surprised isn't here is Travis Kelsey. So like, if he is, isn't as good as killer Kelsey this season. Or, and he's not, if he's not the third best tight end soon, is that kind of a disappointment?

I mean, it could be. I think Kittal, sorry, I think Kelsey would fit into this group, I think. Kelsey wasn't as, Kelsey was a little bit bigger and he wasn't as fast. It was one of the reasons I didn't put him on you. So Kelsey's not here because he's too slow.

Let me pull up, yeah, well, let me pull up Travis Kelsey's, like, combine numbers. But like, I remember looking at it was,

I think he was in the four-sixes or something like that. And so I was like, okay, well, he's not quite the same. Yeah, he was a four-six guy. And I was looking for like high-end speed guys. So basically Vernon Davis was like in the four-fours or four-threes. Greg Olson was in the four-fours. Waller, four-fours or four-threes. Jared Cook four-fours.

I don't remember what Jordan Reed was. Evan Ingram was a four-four guy. Keller was a four-four-guy, Virgil Green, four-four guy. So that was sort of what I was. I actually didn't look up what Gonzalez was, but I wanted to have like a Hall of Famer on there to be like this is like his potential and this guy caught like a thousand catch.

He caught a thousand balls in his career or whatever it was. Like he was ridiculously productive. Hi Fitz, you got me thinking now about you were like, other than Tony Gonzalez, I don't think I would take any of these guys as the fourth or fifth pick. I can't decide if I agree with you or not. You know, like, okay, what about Jamar Chase then?

If Jamar Chase turns out to be Devante Adams, is Devonta Adams worth the fifth pick in the draft? Yes. he's the best receiver in the game. But then why wouldn't Greg Olson be worth? If you need a receipt, well, that's a different question because then we get into draft value. Do you want to tackle a receiver?

There's a whole different question of like, they tend to miss in receivers a lot. Do you even need receivers? Like, that's a whole sticky question. But if you're going to take a receiver, you grab Devante Adams out of the bin 100 times out of 100 if you can, you know. But tight end, it's such, it's so difficult.

Do you think a tight end is less important, objectively less important than a wide receiver? No, I wouldn't say that if they're really good. It's kind of like fantasy football too, right? Like you always tell yourself, oh, I'll trade for Travis Kelsey. And then the guy's like, I'm not giving up Travis Kelsey. What could you possibly give me? Like, what would the Chiefs give up for a matchup nightmare?

I don't know. But on that note, is Kyle Pitts actually a tight end? Like, Travis Kelsey is just the biggest slot receiver in the league. George Kittles actually a tight end. What is Kyle Pitts? And that's just basically you're saying just if you can block, you're actually a tight end. But if you're really only a pass catcher, then you're like a giant slot receiver. receiver, right? So this is actually, somebody asked me this on Twitter and I was asking Nate

Tice about it who is like, he's the scheme genius. He's the guy who I asked like really, I guess like esoteric schematic questions too and he always has a good answer. So he was explaining it. Basically, he thinks like a guy like him, a guy like pits, a tight end who can move all around the formation and Kelsey's like the perfect example of this is more important or more valuable to an offense than just a receiver. And so, because I think the question was, why wouldn't this guy just be a receiver at the next level? Because linebackers guard you then?

Exactly. Because you're moving around the formation. You're coming out. You can run one play in line. And defenses have to decide, okay, who are we going to match up with this guy with? Do we want a linebacker on them? Are we going to bring a cornerback in here where they're like a little less comfortable playing in space? Or maybe they're not quite as big?

You know, they could get bullied away from the catch point. Are we going to put a safety on it? And then you can move them outside. You can do like literal X-iso-Y-ISO-ISO stuff where they can just like run a fade or run a slant and beat coverage on the outside. It's a schematic advantage for you. And that's how the chiefs use Kelsey as like this mismatch creator, right? And that's what teams can do with a guy like Pitts. And that's why I think, you know, and this is what like Tice was mentioning this is like the ideal is what you're looking for, a guy who can line up both in line and outside.

you know, it's not dissimilar to like what a stretch four or a stretch five is in the NBA. I was just going to say. It's like Joel Embed or Chris Epps Prasingas, these big who can handle the ball and shoot threes completely change the offense and make you have to account for them on both ends of the floor when back in the day. You didn't really have to do that or at least account for them only inside the paint. Now you have to account for these guys wherever they are in the court. So I can see how that does make sense that they are more valuable that way. Unicorns. So that's really what it comes down to.

People are saying Kyle Pitts a unicorn. do you think he's a unicorn? Like, as in, like, he will be a matchup nightmare. No one will be able to guard this dude. Yeah, I do because, number one, he's incredibly athletic, incredibly long, and incredible body control, but he's also just a baller.

Like, he's really good at a catch point. Has, like, real, legit football skills. So I do think it will matter. Like any draft prospect going into the NFL, like, he's going to have to get paired with a good quarterback to, like, really make a big difference. friends early on. A schematic, a offensive coordinator who's willing to kind of like move him

around and actually get the most out of him, not trying like make him a wide tight end and have him block every, every snap or whatever. So there's a range of outcomes there. And that's why I included some of these like lower end versions where I would say, you know, if he goes in and ends up being like a Jared Cook, that's probably kind of disappointing or like a Jordan Reed. Jordan Reed's career is different because he, you know, concussions. Concussions. And that's been a thing. But Like, if he goes in and he's Evan Ingram, people are going to be like, that's not great. Sorry, High Fitz. So, if you ran the simulation 100 times, D.K., where would Kyle Pitts most often fall on this scale?

I think he's got a, like, Darren Waller is the floor. I think Darren Waller is, and that's a good floor. And by Darren Waller, you mean, like, the last two years of Darren Waller for 12 years. You don't mean like the, okay. The self-actualized version of Darren Waller where he became a unstoppable, mismatch guy and the number one Darren Waller. Exactly. The number one receiver on his team and I think

that's Kyle Pitts and I think he has the potential, the talent to be even more than that. So obviously I like him a lot. Hopefully I'm not overselling it because I but I just think he's really, really talented. Okay, so let's let's go to Alabama for a second. Speaking of number one receivers,

the other guy I want to talk about is Devante Smith. I don't even know how to talk about this because I almost want to pair this conversation with Jalen Waddle who's the other Alabama receiver. maybe I'm going out of order here, but it's like, the thing that blows my mind is we had a 45-minute conversation

with Ben Glick's been on the NFL show a couple weeks ago about Devante Smith because he's like, maybe the best college football receiver ever. At least he's up there, at least his career. If you look at the career of what he's achieved,

Heisman trophy. But like, he might not be the first receiver drafted from his own team. Right. How is that possible? That's like the weirdest contradiction or juxtaposition.

And yeah, I think it absolutely has to do with, The big thing, the main thing is the body type that he is, which is very, like, it's a unique, almost body type, rare body type. He's listed at 6.1.170, which is like what I was as a freshman in high school. And so imagine a really, really skinny version of me going into my freshman year of high school, going in and, like, lining up and playing in the NFL. That's like... There's no other differences. Obama is 6.1.175.

Is that right? Yes. Like he's literally skinnier than Barack Obama the same night. But then also I think Ben pointed this out on our pot. He has like a extreme... So, Dante Smith and Kyle Pitts

are both like unicorns in terms of like their body types. And I made this... And going back to Pitts real quick, one second. I want to bring this up. And let's say I brought it up already on this pod, but I comped him to Michael Phelps because if you remember Michael Phelps...

For Kyle Pitts. For Kyle Pitts. Yeah, Michael Phelps is like this uniquely built human being like that was just like born to be a swimmer, really long arms, really long torso, short legs, like huge flipper-like feet and hands. And, you know, like, for whatever reason, that was like, he was born to be a swimmer. And he was like, obviously tons and tons of work to be like a champion. But body type, like Kyle Pitts was born to be a pass catcher. I think the same could be said for Devanti Smith.

He has an incredibly long wingspan. He has like the wingspan of like a six foot five guy. And he's six foot one. And so he has incredible length. And he's very smooth. very explosive, athletic. However, he's just really, really skinny. Like, rare skinny. And I think a lot of teams are balking at that, or at least it sounds like there could be teams that balk at that, and are worried about his ability to stay healthy.

Just overall, like, you know, you're going over the middle of the field. You're going to take hits. And I think NFL teams are a little bit wary of that. Like, obviously, if you're taking him in the top 10, top 15, you're staking your job on this guy. And if he's going to get hurt a couple times, like the first couple of times, first couple seasons, like it's going to look bad.

So I think there's some teams that might be like, man, I'm just going to not do that. But I think he has a talent to overcome that for sure. DK., how much would he have to weigh for people to not be concerned about this? Probably 185. So 15 more pounds? Yeah. And I think he's already pushing it with the 170. Like he refused to be what, he refused to be measured or weighed.

He just said he weighed once. He's listed at Alabama at 175. He said he's 170. It's like a driver's license. You just put whatever you want. That's what he's doing. Yes, exactly. So.

Well, can we just get whoever Janus attempt to Kupo's medical staff is and take him over to Devante Smith? Yonis looks like Captain American now compared to when he got drafted. I mean, can't Devante Smith put on 10 pounds in the next two years? I mean, in theory, I guess so.

I don't know. Markis Brown put on 10, I don't know. They've even worked for him. So I'm curious what the, take us through the top 10 or just the 1 through 10 scale because I'm curious, I'm curious how you even found. 10 guys to be comparable to a dude whose measurables basically have been drafted in the first

round one time. This one was harder, so I had to lean a little bit more on stylistic, but like, I tried to get guys who are under 185 pounds, because we're going to assume maybe he can get up to 180 at like peak, the apex. You're a generous man. I have some problems with his list, but let's, let's get through it. What? Okay. So starting out on the low end, like, Paul Richardson is like the buyer beware version of Duante Smith. Paul Richardson was very, very, very productive in college, very fast, explosive playmaker. And I remember the Seahawks when they took him in the second round.

They were like, oh, look, we did our study. You know, it showed us that guys like Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, blah, blah, blah, blah, which I'll get to these two guys. We're able to go into the NFL and stay healthy and do their thing and like blah, blah, blah, we're not too worried about it. And lo and behold, Richardson was like injured like every season until he like washed out with the Seahawks. So he's like the, I guess the biopal.

Beware version of this, and then I'm going to go, I'll just go up the list. Paul Richardson, Marquis Brown, Ted Ginn Jr., Harry Douglas, who I know nothing of, than he's in the NFL, or was in the NFL. Mario Manningham, I threw that one in for High Fitz, Will Fuller, Calvin Ridley, Justin Jefferson, Reggie Wayne, and Marvin Harrison. And so, yeah, get to your... I like Wedgy Wayne. That's a good fantasy name. All right, what do you got for me, Craig?

What are you picking nits? Quams. I just thought it was funny that Harry Douglas is so high. Like, you have Harry Douglas over Ted Ginn? And you have Justin Jefferson over Calvin Ridley? Justin Jefferson's played one season. Well, Justin Jefferson had a better season than Calvin Ridley last year. So that's fine.

But I agree that Harry, I like that you put a player you don't know anything about above Ted Ginn, which I think speaks everything about Ted Ginn. Ted Ginn said like a 15-year career. He's like Harry Douglas is like the number three on Atlanta for five years. Is it too late to move it? Because I'll be honest with you, like I didn't give that a lot of thought. I just kind of threw that name on there. It's our, we could do it.

we want. Who cares? How about this? Let's move Harry Douglas to two behind Paul Richardson. So one, Paul Richardson, Harry Douglas, no, Brown Ginn, Manningham, mostly because he had that incredible playoff catch. This is Apex of Manningham's career. Is this episode being number five? Was that the Super Bowl? He literally made the most important play in a Super Bowl that beat the Patriots. So I literally, oh, I just was triggered and I will move on gracefully. All I will say is Ted Ginn is the only real measurable comparison to Devante Smith that was drafted in the first round

how confident are you that he will be better than Ted Ginn who never had more than 800 receiving yards in his career? Very. All right. No, Marvin Harrison was taken in the first round and he's 6 foot 180. Okay.

Harrison is like, when you watch him play like he looks pretty damn skinny and same with Reggie Wayne like a lot of these guys, you know, I don't know what they play. played at. The other one that I think I would throw out there is Chad Ocho Cinco, aka Chad Johnson, who's gone on record saying he was playing at like 170 in his career, and he was just fine. Wow. So, I mean, I don't know if you believe him, because he,

I think he was like 180 or 190 at the combine, but maybe, you know, maybe he was told by his agent or management team to, like, gain a few pounds before the combine. You know, this is something that a lot of players are told. I don't know why, you know, some players don't do it or can't do it. There's like this thought that Smith just can't put on weight. And if in the way that he's built, he's very like sinewy. He's he's not, it doesn't look like he has the frame to really add a lot of muscle or weight. So I don't know. The other one that I want to just like shout out here is that Justin Jefferson actually has like a really low BMI relative to, um, a lot of guys that have gone in the first round. He's definitely not as skinny as Devante Smith. But if you look at,

if you watch Jefferson play, like he, he's not like a power player. He's a, he's a He's a, and I've said this when I was like doing a scouting reports. He almost uses like basketball crossover moves to like get, get open. He's very much like he's not a power player. He does win at the catch point just like DeFonte Smith does. I think that Justin Jefferson is actually kind of an interesting comp for Smith. Smith is clearly much skinnier, but stylistically they're not that different. So I want it with that all in mind, I want to roll over to Jalen Waddle, who is his

teammate, who was kind of hurt for this season. And I want to hear his top 10 guys in the comparison. and then I'm curious why you have Devonthe Smith over Waddle. But let's just first take us through Waddle. Who are the top 10 comparisons for Waddle in his game? All right. So on the low end, we'll start with High Fitz's favorite player of all time. New York football giant, John Ross.

Oh, that's worst case scenario? Oh, I'm in. I'm in. Okay, so I'm just going to go through these. John Ross, Philip Dorset. Between the Manningham slander and John Ross, I just... What slander are you talking about? I didn't slander him.

drag horridic, can't keep going. I just think Tyree's catch is more important. It's like two things can be good. That's what people do on Twitter. Like, oh, you like the Manningham catch? You don't like the Tyree catch?

Tyree's catch was more impressive and Eli's throw was more impressive than... Tyree's that catch was an act of God is what that was. It was weird. Divine intervention. I met David Tyree before that season began

and he was wearing a shirt that said, like with the, like with the Ten Commandments and it said, take two tablets and call me in the morning. And then he had the greatest, most inexplicable immorality. miraculous play of all time. So, yeah.

Anyway, makes you think. Go ahead. John Ross, Philip Dorset, Henry Ruggs, Marquis Goodwin, Kenny Stills, John Brown, Tyler Lockett, T.Y. Hilton, Steve Smith, and Tyree Kill. I think that what

teams want and think Waddle can be is Tyree Kill, a guy who he is a field tilter because of his speed, the ability to like literally tilt defenses in his direction. You have to know where he is at all times. the things he can do after the catch

just pure explosiveness speed all that like that's like waddle's you know platonic ideal as a as a playmaker or whatever it'd be like that type of player i put in steve smith too because i think waddle is extremely physical and strong at the catch point

really good after the catch just a like sort of ferocious type player and i think he's going to pick up lots of yards after the catch in the NFL and then he reminded me most of t y hilton in the that he's just very, very fast, can get over the top of a defense, smooth, like tracks the ball well,

all that stuff. So that trio is sort of like an amalgamation of what I think Waddle could be. I was just ask you about the Tyree Kill comp, because obviously Tyree Kill is like the fastest player in the NFL, and people want that. But it's not just that he's straight line fast. The other part of Tyree Kill's game is the jitteriness.

Like, yeah, you see a lot of times he catches like a 40-yard bomb downfield. You also see a lot of times. times that they give him like eight yards of space and he just like does like a stutter step and just catches a ball and just darts for seven yards. And Waddle, the comparison is almost more that short area burst, right? I think for some people it is. I don't see it, to be honest. I don't see the same level of explosiveness as Tyreek. If we're talking about the pure jittery, explosive short area. Acceleration. He just can go from zero to 60 as fast as anyone I've ever watched. I think there's

this there's this inclination to be like this is the next Tyree kill and a lot of guys are the next Tyree kill. Henry Ruggs was supposed to be the next Tyree kill. But I don't think Waddle is that explosive in the short area. I think he's very, very fast and he'll, and I mean, Lance Deerlain even put this, so like he'll immediately be one of the fastest guys in the NFL. You're just saying he's more straight line fast like a John Brown or

Kenny Stills? I feel like I'm, it feels like I'm like saying he's not fast or not explosive. He's extremely fast and explosive. He's got incredible acceleration. When he gets the ball on his hands, he's got a lot of juice to, like, hit the gas and run away from guys. But just in my mind,

he's not Tyree Killfast. So there's like a very fine line. You mentioned Ruggs. Devontu Smith, Jalen Waddle, Henry Ruggs. They all went to Alabama. Went with Jared Judy. Ruggs was the first receiver drafted in the first round last year.

But like, he couldn't even return puns at Alabama. Like he was the fast guy, but like he wasn't necessarily making dudes miss guy. And Waddle did return puns for Bama. I think it was okay at it. So it's like, do you basically, Does he make people miss, is my question.

Yes, he does. In fact, he's very, very good after catch. Like, that would be, I would say, even more. He's almost like a running back when he has the ball on his hands. He turns into like a running back. He's very explosive. Again, I'm not trying to say he's not explosive. I just don't know if he's on the level of Hill,

which I don't think really anyone is that we've seen in the NFL. But, yeah, you can turn on the gas. He's explosive. In fact, in 2019, per, pro football focus. He was the only receiver in the country to average at least 12 yards after the catch per reception. So they schemed him up a good amount to like get him in space. There's a lot of these plays. And you see this with Terry Kill too. Like there's plays where he catches the ball and there's like three guys around him and then he just runs away from him.

You know what I mean? And it's like, Jesus, how the hell did he do that? So I'm excited about what he can be in the NFL. I think he's like in my top 15. I can't remember off top of my head where I got him. Let's see here. I got him at 12. So he's like an elite player. He's a blue chip player. But when we talk about like Tyreek explosive speed, I don't think he's quite there. So if let's do this, we run Jalen Waddle's career a hundred times here. Where do you think he lands on this scale? And let's do it with Devante too because I don't think we did that. This is a very good question. I would say put him in the John Brown floor. And I think there's a really good chance he could be like a Ty, a Ty, T.Y. Hilton.

type player like multiple thousand yard seasons and then like if we're if he really like lands in a perfect situation and and just blows like all our minds like then yeah he becomes like the steve smith type player tyrie kill type player what about devante smiths smith on here and the reason i put will fuller in is because number one he's a field stretcher you think devonte stearote devonty smithing steroids is that what you're saying we also yeah lubricate those hamstrings No, I think... The reason I put Fuller on there is because he's a slightly built

speedster who's been hurt a lot. And I'm not saying that's what Devante Smith is going to be. I'm saying this is what the NFL thinks he might be, if that makes sense. And so I put him in there, but I think he has the ability to be, like, at his... I think Calvin really is a good comp for him. Like, he can come in.

Like, I would not be surprised whatsoever if he, like, immediately contributes, if he puts up multiple 1,000-year receiving year, in his career. So yeah, I would say, I think Calvindley is like a pretty good, a pretty good comp, like as a floor, not a floor necessarily, but like as an ideal, realistic scenario.

So to wrap back around here, if Devante Smith, who won the Heisman trophy, is not the first receiver taken from his own team, it will be because teams are looking for the next Tyree Kill. Yeah. And Jalen Waddle. Okay, cool.

All right, that makes sense. And also, like, for the record, and this is something that I think a lot of people reference. I don't know if it's necessarily that meaningful, but Jalen Waddle was out producing Devante Smith through the first four

games of Alabama's season this year. It was like those two guys were the main guys, the main pass catchers in this offense. And Jalen Waddle was outproducing Devante Smith who ended up being the Heisman. However, what the counter to that would be is like when

Waddle went out, Devante Smith absolutely freaking took over. and all these opposing teams knew exactly what, you know, what Alabama was going to do and they still couldn't stop him at all. He was the only guy in that, or he was not the only guy, but he was like the main guy. Defences went in knowing this is like their go-to guy and it didn't matter. I mean, like, the case and point would be,

case and point would be the national title game when he had 215 yards and three touchdowns on 12 catches in the first half. Like you think they'd go in a sort of a game, you'd think they'd go in with like a game plan to be like, all right, this guy's going to be the guy to stop, but he still went completely ham. And it's also like the first moment he really had in the national stage was catching the winning touchdown pass in national championship game.

So, you know, decent performance on this. So let's just do a lightning round right now with, we talked a lot about the top guys drafted, but reality, if you look back at receiver drafts, the best receivers in the NFL have been taking like second and third rounds. Devante Adams was what, the ninth receiver taken in that draft, Michael Thomas was a second rounder. I think he now was like a third rounder.

So with that said, if we were to look back five years, from now and being like, oh my God, how did this guy fall to the second third round? Give us like a few guys right now as quick that you think could be that dude. My three favorite guys are Elijah Moore from Ole Miss. He is a shorter slot receiver, extremely explosive, very, very good hands, very good route runner, dangerous after the catch. He led the nation in yards per game and catches per game this year. My second favorite guy would be Rashad Bateman, who is a very slick route runner, very good

body control. Like, I think the thing that kind of defines him the most would be his release off the line. Like, he's very, very quick off the line. I come to him to Michael Thomas. Turns out he's not quite as big as Thomas. Like, we were kind of under the assumption he was going to be like 6-2-21, but he measured in at 6'5 feet, 6-foot even, I think, or 6-1-190. So he's a little bit lighter, but I don't think that changes his game a whole lot.

He's just very good getting off the line and getting deep. And then Terris Marshall from LSU is another guy that I'm really interested in seeing what he does. He's very smooth, the explosive, ran like a four-three, former five-star guy. He obviously was stuck behind Jamar Chase and Justin Jefferson, but he has a ton of potential, a ton of talent, and he's just an elite athlete with a big catch radius, and he tracks the ball really well, good at the catch point, a lot of tools, and I think he could end up being, like, a second round. I think all these guys probably end up being second rounders. You know, they all have a chance to get into the first round, and I've seen them in

mocks, but I'm just kind of thinking they'll probably all be second rounders, but I think those are all going to be good values. On that note, DK, like, again, we did a whole episode of this on the Ringer NFL show of like, why is it so hard to draft receivers? And, like, that's just the stretching the surface. Like, Stefan Diggs was the freaking fifth round. He led the league of receiving yards and catches last year.

Like, the list literally goes on and on and on. And it feels scattershot. Why is, why does it seem harder to find the right order of receivers in a draft than other positions? Oh, that's a very good question. I think for starters, teams overrate the speed thing. athleticism thing.

And that's what makes me a little bit nervous about the Waddle thing. I think he's a very good player. But it's like we saw this with, you know, and again, I'm not comparing him to Ruggs, because I do think Waddle is more skilled

as a technician as a receiver than Ruggs was. But we saw the Raiders, and this happens every year, the Raiders became enamored with Ruggs' speed and what that could bring to their offense. And it did not play out in year one. I mean, I'm not, the jury is still out on him in his career,

but it wasn't promising year one. you'd love to have a more promising season from the top receiver picked, I think. But it's a good example and a good microcosm, I think. For one reason, teams can be steered in the wrong direction, is just getting overly enamored with the speed, like the pure speed, the track speed. Isn't that how Talladega night starts? Like, America was built on hot, nasty, badass speed. Eleanor Roosevelt.

Yeah. I think so, I don't know, that's just one part of it. but looking at some of the top 15 fantasy producers, when you go down the list, it's like, most of them are four or five guys. They're not like speed station. It's DeAndre Hopkins, Devante Adams, you know, Michael Thomas, like all these guys who are like Keenan Allen. They're fast enough, but they're not like the burners necessarily.

Tyree Kill would be an exception, obviously. But, you know, I think for the vast majority of like the top. receivers in the NFL, I wouldn't say they're like super speedy. So it's one of those things where teams, I think, overweight that a little bit. That's just one factor, but it came to my mind. You also literally dependent on other people for the ball to show what you can do. Yeah, yeah, situation. Yeah.

I mean, it's a very dependent position. And so trying to figure out what, it's not just as simple as like, are you good at this? It's just there's so much there. Like, again, D.K. Meckf, A.J. Brown, two would look like amazing players, barely did anything at Ole Miss. Jarvis Landry, you know, Daubeckham two amazing and football players. Combined for like 1,100 yards and, like, how is that possible? But it's, you have to understand way more than just what they did. So, yeah, it's weird. I mean, you can get it, you can get into the, the, like, emotional part, the intellectual part of being a pro. I think all that stuff

is very fascinating. It's hard to nail that stuff down from the outside looking in. But obviously, when you, going from college to the pros, if you want to be great, you have to have an incredible work ethic. You have to have incredible confidence. You have to have, you know, obviously special physical skills, the ability to catch the football in traffic and to take a hit, all this stuff. I think it's just, it's a hard position to scout, or I guess it's one of the positions that you see a lot of misses on, but I think it's just because like, you're the most dependent on other players in your team. Like, it's just, I think that's what it is. I mean, and it's also just, like, I think it's a technically challenging position to play also.

So like sometimes the jump from the college game to the pros can be too much for a lot of guys. Hard to play for a pro football. Who knew? Okay. It is. Yeah. I think that's all we got today. Thank you, D.K.

Thank you, Craig. Thank you to everyone for listening. Thank you to Sean Fennancy for coming on board and, you know, sharing his pain. And, you know, grief shared is divided and happy to share does multiply. Thank you for listening. We will see you guys next week. Oh, you got a band?

You didn't say Lauren. We're doing a band. Oh my God, thank you, Lauren. Oh, my God. Simon and Garfunkel shouts. Oh, wow. Nice. Wow, okay.

Yeah. Are you team Simon or team Garfunkel? Oh, that's a tough question. I don't know. I feel like that's a leading question. That's going to say a lot about me. I'm Team Simon and Garfunkel. All right.

I don't know. Did Garfunkel do anything by himself? Did Garfunkel go solo or was it just Paul Simon? I'm sure Garfunkel went forward. Do you know that we've called out on the internet this week? Is that what made you think of it? God, I hope not. No, I was thinking the only living boy in New York.

I was thinking of Sean Fennessey and like a sad New York theme. Grace Land, great album, Palsam. All right, let's get out of here. Goodbye, everyone.