The Ringer NFL Show - QB/TE Tiers

Episode Date: August 10, 2020

We talk through our quarterback and tight end tiers and point out the players we like the most, and the players who should be relegated to the tier below. QB Tiers Tier 1 (5:31) Tier 2 (6:45) Tier 3 (13:11) Tier 4 (17:30) Tier 5 (23:55) Tight End Tiers Tier 1 (32:32) Tier 2 (33:08) Tier 3 (35:07) Tier 4 (41:21) Tier 5 (49:47) Check out The Ringer Fantasy Football Guide for a closer look at our tiers, rankings, and more. Hosts: Danny Heifetz, Danny Kelly, and Craig Horlbeck Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to the Ringer Fantasy Football Show. I'm Danny Heifitz, and I'm here with my co-host, Danny Kelly and Craig Horlebeck. What's up, D.K.? You know, not a whole lot. We got the final opt-out numbers for the NFL going into the NFL season. It ended up at 69, so not as, not quite as dramatic. A nice 69. Not as dramatic as I think a lot of people thought it might be.

69's not a dramatic number. It's hard, you know what I mean? That's what I said. Yeah, it's not dramatic. It's not dramatically high. No, I meant that it's hard to take it seriously. Oh, certainly. I think it's good that.

I mean, this is a good sign, right, that not a lot of guys dropped out, at least as of right now? No, it's literally dozens. Well, yeah, but like the biggest names are like C.J. Mosley and Damien Williams. Like, it's not, like, it's a positive sign for the season, at least from like a personal standpoint, right? Positive isn't the word. I think we're going to have to all change how we use positive. It's opportunistic, perhaps. perhaps. I mean, like, look, we're a couple weeks or a week or two into this right now, and they haven't started practicing. There's still a long way to go, but I think just overall, you know, it's not crumbling. It's not falling apart. So that's, that's, I think you have to take that as a positive overall. That's the bar in 2020. It's not crumbling and falling apart. So that's good. That is in fact how this year has been. Glass half full. It's all because of those security sanitizer checkpoints that the chiefs walked through or they just spray you with hand sanitizer. That's why, it's all working out.

If the glass has not been shattered on the ground, it is half full. That is how we approach this year. Look, I'm going to take what I can get. Okay, we're going to take what we can get. We're doing this episode today. We're doing the quarterback and tight end tiers. In this episode, again,

tiers are a decision-making tool, something you should do. It's mostly about grouping players together, not just ranking them, but having an idea of which players are similar and where you value them in drafts, what kind of player, how you think they'll contribute to your team.

And we wanted to group quarterbacks and tight ends together, for this episode because they're kind of very similar positions for fantasy purposes of this year. You only start one traditionally, one of each. Traditionally, you only start one. This year, there's a clear top two with Lamar and Mahomes, a quarterback, Kelsey and Kittle at tight end. There's this kind of weird middle ground of where do you take Russell Wilson, where do you take Mark Andrews, where do you take Evan Engram? And then there's what is traditionally considered a shallow position is really deep this year.

And usually you're trying to find diamonds in the rough. this year it's kind of like you're just trying to find the right diamond and a pile of diamonds because there's so many tight-end sleepers, there's so many quarterback sleepers. It's kind of, it's a lot deeper this year. So first off, what do you guys make of this year with the high-end, tight-end options and the high-end quarterback options versus how deep it is and how you can still get to like the 15th or 20th at each of those positions? Are you guys more about taking someone toward the top of the draft this year or waiting on it?

Well, it all really depends on your draft and like who you draft with. because if you can get Travis Kelsey in the second round, but then Darren Waller doesn't go till the eighth, then it's probably not a good value. But if Darren Waller's going to go in the fourth, then Travis Kelsey becomes a way better pick. So you kind of have to look back if you have a long time lead with your friends

and see kind of what types of tight end drafting goes on and quarterback drafting goes on, because that actually really matters, and it might matter the most. If Mahomes goes in the third, but then Russell Wilson goes in the 10th, then you should definitely wait and get a quarterback late, you know? Yeah.

I mean, to me, it's the, I like what it does in terms of it. It just gives you options. Like this year, like you said, Danny, there are some really intriguing sleepers at both tight end and quarterback. So you can really have just kind of the whole spectrum of strategies. You can have the opportunity to take a late round quarterback, take a few flyers on late round tight ends, and you can, you know, stack your team with running backs early on, receivers early on or whatever.

Or you can go the opposite route if you want. Like you can get Lamar or Patrick or Patrick, Patrick, early on, you know, in your draft and then kind of go from there. But I think it just gives you the option. There's no, I think there's no bad strategy this year. Even zero R.B, I think is intriguing. Maybe we're not like super high on that this year, but I think it's still something that you can do. So, yeah, there's just, there's, it gives you more options. You don't have to do any one thing. What if I take kickers in the first four rounds? Is that a bad strategy? Yesterday I did a mock draft with my friend and he accidentally took McCle Hardman's second

overall and everybody was so mad at him. There's no bad strategies this year. Don't worry about it. We're good. No bad strategy. Did you have to start that over? Did you just go with you?

Well, everybody was so mean to him that he took Sammy Watkins in the second and then signed off. Screw you guys. But I think the general consensus, like the hip fantasy thing to do, the expert analysis is you take a quarterback early or late.

You take a tight end early or late. You get a top guy or a deep guy. However, when looking at our tears, I can't help but be intrigued by like the four to seven range of these positions. And I don't know how you guys feel about it, but I love the tier two of quarterbacks and I love the tier two of tight ends.

And I'm not sure, is it ever okay to take Darren Waller or Mark Andrews and the Kyler Murray and the Deshawn Watson's? Stay tuned to find out. Let's not get ahead of ourselves. Let's dive into the quarterbacks first. So we're going by tiers here. Quarterbacks, the tier one is pretty obvious.

Lamar Jackson and the Ravens, Mahomes, and the Chiefs. I don't think we need to dwell here. These guys are good of football. Clearly the top tier, I think the only interesting part is just, I mean, do you guys think Lamar Mahomes, would you rather have Lamar and Mahomes for Fantasy this year? It's the only interesting part of this to me.

I think it really have Mahomes. Yeah, I'd lean Mahomes a little bit too, even though Jackson has that Konami Code, the rushing upside. I think it's just he's bound to regress a little bit in terms of his passing touchdowns total. I don't think he's probably going to lead the league and have like a 9% touchdown pass rate or whatever.

So, yeah, I lean Mahomes. I think he's going to regress in the right direction. could just completely go off this year. Okay, we're going to play a game very quickly. You literally can only answer this with yes or no. Would you draft, Lamar or Mahomes, up to you? Would you draft one of them 12-team league, 15th overall? No.

Would you draft them 25th overall? No. Oh, D.K. thought about it. Would you draft them 35th overall? Yeah. No. 45th, Craig? Yeah.

Okay. Real quick. That's the rain. where you start to look at the value. All right. So, yeah, Lamar and Mahomes are the top tier, no question. Tier two. Russell Wilson went to Seahawks, go Hawks.

Deshawn Watson and the Texans, Kyler Murray on the Cardinals and Dallas Dak Prescott. That's what we got for Tier 2. First of all, does anyone here, I mean, we're not promoting anyone to Tier 1, but does anyone here you think don't belong? No. I think the only one that you could really question here

is Kyler Murray, just because he hasn't done it consistently over the last few years. Like Wilson, Watson, Prescott, I think, have basically proven that they're elite quarterbacks in the NFL, whereas Kyler Murray was really intriguing, really exciting as a rookie. But, you know, he doesn't necessarily, he doesn't have the track record that you really kind of look for in that tier. So that would be the only one I maybe would move him down to Tier 3, but I am very bullish on

him this season. I think that's why he's here. I agree on Kyler. I get Baker-Mayfield vibes from Kyler and not just they both went to Oklahoma and went number one in our short and won the Heisman trophy. But because that's a lot. It's kind of like there's a lot in common. Subconsciously, I definitely

am not actually able to divorce those things. But last year, Baker was going in the same tier. Baker was somewhere between fifth and like eighth in most fantasy rankings. And I mean, including some people had him higher. Yeah. Yeah, but eventually he shot up so high and he was being drafted like 60th ahead of

Aaron Rogers and ahead of most quarterbacks, way ahead of DAC. And that was the result of everyone salivating at this Brown's offense and really looking at the upside case for Baker without really considering the he's never done this. He's a second year quarterback. And I feel the same thing with Kyler. Air raid is such a sexy term. The whole Cliff Kingsbury, great name. Kyleor Murray, great name. Cardinals. They got DeAndre Hopkins. It all seems, how could this not work? But does it make sense to be grouping Kyler Murray, who's like 23, 24,

with Russell Wilson and Deshawn Watson right now when you can wait 60 picks maybe and get Drew Breeze. Okay, here's my argument to that. In 2018, Baker Mayfield was the quarterback 16. And he only played 14 games, but he was around there even in points per game. Last year, Kyle Murray was the quarterback seven. So why shouldn't we expect him to be better? The other thing, Craig and I agree with you, the other thing to add to that is Baker's rookie year, which wasn't a full season, clearly, but he was more of just like a scramble. They didn't have design runs for him at all. He ran the ball 39 times. Last year, Kyler Murray was third in the NFL.

In rushing yards? Yeah, in rushing attempts. I'm pulling it up right now. He had 93 rushing attempts, 544 yards. So that 93 rushing attempts is third among all quarterbacks. That is very, very important in fantasy football. It's different. That's what's different, I think, about him versus the Baker Mayfield argument is Kyler Murray could have a mediocre passing season. If he runs the ball 93, 100 times again or whatever, then. he is, he brings that potential to be a top five fantasy quarterback. So that, to me, that's the big thing. That is his upside. He's very elusive, very quick. And if they design more run stuff for him this year in a second year, that could, you know, pay off a little bit more. He had four touchdowns

last year. So not like a huge number, clearly, but that number is, that's one of those numbers that kind of is very variable. It could go up. You could see a lot of fantasy production from that alone, which could really make up for a mediocre passing season. So would you guys rather Kyler or Dak? Kyler is to be the ceiling play, maybe, I guess, because we saw with Dak. Dak's ceiling maybe was like last year. They passed the ball all over the yard. The question with Dak is like, can he do that every season?

I would rather have Dak personally, just because I think that offense is going to be elite. But there's an argument who made for going for Kyler just because you think he has that rushing upside to like smack. everything else. I think I would pick Dak as well slightly. He was the quarterback too last year. I have a question for you guys. There's only been one quarterback in the last three

years who has finished inside the top 12 in fantasy points. Only one. Who do you think that is? Last three years? The last three years only, it doesn't even make any sense, but only one quarterback has been in the top 12 each year for the last three years. Dak? No.

Is it Russell? Yep. Yeah, he's so so consistent. Russ has never missed a game. Isn't that bizarre? But wouldn't you think that like, I don't know, Brady or Breeze or or Matt Ryan,

like one of them, like top 12? It's only Russ. Well, but that speaks to, that speaks to my issue with generally, with this tier

and why I don't think I'm going to leave too many drafts with one of these quarterbacks. It's because there's more turnover fantasy-wise than not turnover interceptions and picks,

but change in the top 10 every year than you think. I would rather wait a lot longer to these later tiers we're going to get to, then take someone in this group. Not because they're not good, but because I'd rather be bolstering running back receiver or even tight end around like the 50s, 70s, 80s or you know, you're doing an auction, whatever. I'd rather spend the money on other positions and you can still get Matt Ryan or Carson Wentzer Breeze for like nothing. So that just

speaks to me of how harder it is to predict the quarterback position than we think. I agree with that. I mean, I think that stats shows that. It's like maybe, maybe Russ is the exception and you should grab him every year. I think he was like the QB1 in 2017 or something like that. But you're right. I mean, he was, yeah. The fact that it's such a crazy turnover than maybe taking Carson Wentz is the move. Let me, let me, I said this on the NFL show a couple weeks back, but I want to reiterate some of these stats for Russell Wilson. So he's finished outside the top five, just one time in his eight seasons in the NFL in fantasy points per dropback. He is the most efficient, consistent quarterback, maybe in the NFL, especially in that stat.

So 2019, he was fifth in fantasy points per dropback, second in 2018, third, 2017. And I'm going to skip one year. He was second, 2015, second, 2014, third, 2013, third in 2012. His 2016 season, he played through knee and ankle injuries. He's like the Mike Trout of football. Wow. Whoa. This is a very special moment.

That was the one millionth time a Seahawks fan has demanded the Seahawks let Russell Wilson pass more. Yeah. Wow. What do I get? What do I win? A sound drop and then a segue. Okay. Tier three.

My point is he belongs in that tier. So yeah, let's move on. All right. Tier three. This is my favorite tier. Josh Allen. Yeah. Bill's.

Because that's it. Bill's quarterback Josh Allen. We decided that there is just no one can be on his level because he does not deserve to be in the conversation with that, Kyle or Deshawn Russell Wilson. but he also isn't really with the other guy. Craig, this is your dude. Just tell us about Joshy.

Here's the thing with Josh. Talk about a ceiling and low floor play. I mean, he could absolutely just ruin everything and throw 20 picks and fumble a time and get hurt. Or he could run for like 700 yards and nine touchdowns and put up like cam numbers and progress as a year three thrower and the bills win 12 games and he's like the QB2. And I like genuinely think that's,

possible. I look at Josh Allen like Mr. Peanut Butter on BoJack Horseman. No, I've never seen it. Oh, no, right. You know, it's that you know, it's that. The 10% of the people listening are just like, yeah, yeah, yeah. But Josh Allen, here's the weird thing about Josh Helm. He has this rocket arm everyone's known for, right?

But he has the worst deep ball completion percentage in the NFL. So he's actually scaled back and they're like, all right, Josh, you're going to be more, check, like you're going to be more conservative with the ball. You're not trying to make a touchdown on every play. you're trying to just get first downs. Then they go, they get Stefan Diggs, so he's going to be a better deep ball receiver. So they're in this limbo of, okay,

they need to make plays, but they also don't want him to, like, hurt his body. They want him to be able to use that rocket arm, but he's not going to be tossing it downfield all the time. But now he, now he's got Diggs and John Brown, Dawson Knox. Dawson Knox. Dawson Knox can't catch. John Brown is now one of the better number two receivers. Stefan Diggs is going from Kirk Cousin to Allen.

Kirk Cousin's the opposite human being because he completes all of his passes. never takes risks. Josh Allen is like all he wants to do. He's just a golden retriever. He just wants to run and go get the ball. I don't know if I could be confident having Josh Allen on my team. I need to back up the bus that's currently over Dawson Knox right now.

Jesus. He had like 28 catches and 10 drops last year. I like Dawson Knox, but my God, that's crazy. Damn, okay. Here's what I say about old Josh Ye. No one calls him that. Warren Sharp was just something. the NFL show last week. And he was just talking about how much more efficient a quarterback is

inside the 10 and 5 rushing the ball than a running back is. And he was like, basically, we don't do it enough. We don't keep being sneak enough and we don't like punch it in from the goal line with quarterbacks enough. And the bills are like the one team that kind of do that. And I know they drafted Zach Moss, who's like kind of a bigger bruising running back. But I truly think that Josh Allen, like last year's rushing was not an aberration. I think that he can continue that. Most of those goal line attempts Most of those go-line attempts came after they were trying to, they tried running at the ball and with running back and then failed. And then they're like, all, fine, Josh, just do it again.

But he's the rare combo where they design runs for him and he scrambles. The point is, are you actually going to draft Josh Allen in your fantasy league with like the 80th pick and be filled? Yeah. D.K., what do you think? Yeah, because he's sort of in that sweet spot middle range where you don't feel like you're reaching on a guy. It's just kind of like you've already gotten your studs early on in the draft.

and then, I don't know, it just depends on how you're constructing your team, but I do agree that. His rushing gives him that top three QB, like, upside. You know, potentially top one upside. He is, I think Cam Newton is a very pretty good, like, comparison for him in terms of his fantasy style. Cam Newton with actual good players around him.

I wanted to look up the stats for this. I don't have it in front of me, but the thing that makes it interesting to me is, Alan is they're not drawing up run plays for Alan a ton. It's all scrambling. That's just his style. That's just who he is. And I don't think that's going to change.

But then in the goal line, I think they do design like draws and shit for him. Sure. Yeah. That's a little different. But I mean, just like his overall last year, he had 109 rushing attempts. I don't know how many of those were scrambles. I was trying to find the number. But I think a lot of them were scrambles.

So, Hyvitz, you sound dubious. Let's get to tier four. And let's talk about the guys that you maybe take ahead of Josh Allen. I like Josh Allen as a fantasy player. We'll see you as an NFL player. But tier four, you got Matt Ryan with Atlanta, Matt Stafford of the Lions, Carson-Wenson, the Eagles,

Drew Brees and the Saints, Ben Rothensburg on the Steelers. You could, like, quibble with each of those guys, I mean, with injury concerns, except for Matt Ryan, but I think those are all really great values. I have gotten Matt Ryan on a lot of teams I've had so far just because, you know,

they seem like a good bet to lead the league in passing, yardage and attempts, they seem like a really good, but they're playing a lot of really bad past defenses, but they're also facing a lot of good pass offenses. So, you know, there might be in a lot of shootouts. It's just everything about the Falcons, then he screams like Matt Ryan's going to be really good.

He's being drafted, you know, outside the top 100 or whatever. So anyone in this group, is anyone in this group not enticing to you? The only one to me is Ben. I think Ben, for some reason, I think it's just his injury proneness and the elbow thing. I don't, I think I would take every guy in this class above Ben. Really?

Because I actually like Ben a lot in this one. I'm just worried about him. Just worried about Ben. You're a Steelers fan for the record. So does that like color that analysis a little bit? Just having him get injured so many times in the past? I don't know. He just like threw a pass in 2019 and was out for the year.

So I'm like, I'm a little nervous. He tore three of the five tendons connecting his elbow. And they asked him about he said, I'm not a doctorate. I didn't stay at a holiday in last night. But he said it feels good. So, okay. Thanks, Ben.

I think Matt Ryan's the best pick here. He was the quarterback two in 2018. The Falcons throw the ball an F ton, and they have really strong weapons. This group all has in common just rebound. Carson Wentz was healthy, but playing with a absurdly injured group of players. So his values kind of deflated

because the Eagles are not going to be as injured last year, but recency bias. Drew Breeze, hurt his thumb, was really good after he came back. surprisingly good coming back from that thumb injury. Value deflated because of that. Rathusberger led the league in passing yard of 2018. Value obviously deflated because of the elbow. Stafford was really good before he got hurt. And then he left, obviously, his values deflated because of that. And then Matt Ryan just because he's a very forgettable human being.

So I just look at this as just the taking advantage of recency bias or forgetability for all these dudes. So I like this, this is my favorite tier. So just to bring it back one, go back up to Josh. I did find the stat. I just want to add it back in. So he had 46 scrambles according to PFF last year, which was third behind.

Deshawn Watson was second. Do you guys guess who is number one in this stat? Who had the most scrambles? No. Russ. No, he was fourth. Deshawn? Deshawn was second.

Oh, you said Deshawn was second. What's the definition of a scramble? It is a undesigned run by the quarterback. So not like read option or a power or a sneak or whatever. No, not Lamar. Lamar is, and this stat, Lamar Jackson

If it's not designed, is somebody weird like Daniel Jones? It is somebody weird. And I don't even know if you guys will get it. James Winston. Gardner Minshu. Yes, Gardner Minshu. Hell yeah.

Which makes him to me like a very interesting sleeper. Obviously, there's a lot of questions about whether he can continue to be a starter in the NFL. But he has that sneaky scrambling upside that makes him a fantasy factor. We're going way out of order here. But Jay Gruden has basically, basically never had a,

there's basically one season, his quarterback has not been like a top 12 option where there was one start of the whole year. Like the seasons where like they had to, like people got hurt, Alex Smith got hurt and players were shuffled, Andy Dalton got hurt. Those seasons that was terrible.

But when there's a full starter for Jay Gruden, he's basically like five of six for having a top 12 quarterback. And Garda Minchu is like one of my favorite sleepers this year. Yeah. All right, but we have to stay on track with the tears, D.K. All right,

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Or in Indiana, call 1-8009 with it. or in Colorado, call 1-800, 5-2-2-4-700. All right, let's keep rolling here. Tier 5, we've got Aaron Rogers

with the Packers, Ryan Tannehill on the Titans, Cam Newton on the Patriots, Tom Brady on the Buccaneers, which eventually that will stop sounding weird, and then Jared Goff with the Rams. I'm going to skip the who here leaps out. Aaron Rogers leaps out.

I'll tell you that. Is Aaron Rogers just cooked? Everyone is just out on Aaron Rogers this year. Does anyone have a case for why he is a good fantasy pick this year, other than boiling rage? I do. Boiling rage is probably at the top of the list, but Rogers has not been as bad as people think, and he's basically just had a bit of touchdown rate.

Unluckiness is all. And he's still running at a decent rate, and he's throwing just as much as he used to when he was putting up huge numbers. I think there's a reasonable chance that Aaron Rogers bounces his way back into the top seven this year. He might even be a little bit too low here. He was the QB10 last year,

it seems to me like there's a good chance that they will be passing more, even though the stated and all the things that they've done over the last few months would point to like a run-heavy scheme. Like they got pretty, lucky's not the word, they were playing in a lot of really close games last year, so they were able to slow things down that could, you know, kind of run the ball a little bit more on first and second down. They might not have that option this year if they're behind a little bit more

or if they're in those types of shootout games. So I would say Aaron Rogers is no longer. kind of looked at, at least in the fantasy realm, as like a superstar quarterback, but he's also maybe better than, like, people are burying him at this point. He's, he's better than, I think, sort of the narrative would have him be. Matt Lafleur, the Packers Head coach, said they're going to run more the way someone says I'm going to quit smoking, and then they go out and like smoke half a pack of cigarettes outside of club when they're drunk. It's like, it's like, yeah, that's what you want. But if all the underlying numbers suggest that they weren't 13 and

three, anybody who watched that team, including Packers fans, no, that was not a 13. and three team. They're extremely likely, I mean, they're over under this season, like nine and a half. And just the virtue of falling four games, they're going to be in way less,

sorry, way more close situations. They're going to be passing more in the second half instead of running so much. I think it was the lowest. Their rate of touchdowns that were passing touchdowns was the lowest in like 10 years.

You can say whatever he wants about running the ball. They're going to be passing more. So it's interesting that even though all the numbers suggest they're going to be passing more, Rogers has ranked like four or five spots lower in most spots.

So I don't, If you can get Rayron Rogers as your, you know, first quarterback, like a 15th among quarterbacks, that's fine with me. And then obviously, if you want to talk about upside, three guys jump out in this tier and two guys do not at all. And it's Rogers, Cam Newton, and Jared Goff to me jump out as upside. And Ryan Daniel and Tom Brady do not. That's really interesting.

D.K., do you think Tom Brady does not have upside? Wasn't James Winston a top three guy, even with 30,000 interceptions? Yeah, he was a top three guy because of that, though. And Winston has always been the hero ball type where you're throwing it into triple coverage. And they had to do the thing where they try and come back in so many, so many games because he was throwing so many pick sixes,

like unheard of amount of pick sixes and things like that. So I think their offense is going to be completely different potentially this year with Brady. And Brady still has the quote upside. He was a QB1 last year and a terrible offense. He was barely, he was a QB 12. In the year before that is the QB 14. The bet against Tanna Hill is that the red zone offense for Tennessee, I believe they had like 26 of 30 trips to the red zone when for touch.

Something nuts. And there's just very little chance. The Titans last year were like season one of Homeland where they just couldn't miss. It was beautiful. And it's just going to go downhill from here. We know it. The Titans is an interesting example to me because if you look at the quarterback is the one position where efficiency stats are actually something. something that you want to chase. If your quarterback is super efficient, it has like 120 pass

rating and blah, blah, blah, like really high completion percentage, all that, that means that's, that translates to fantasy points because you're scoring touchdowns, the offense is moving the ball, all that. So Ryan Tannell is a good example of that. They weren't passing it a ton, but he was so incredibly efficient last year that down the stretch, he was the like the QB9 or something like that. He finishes the QB9 in points per game, and down the stretch he was like a QB3 or four. So do you think there's any chance that Brady could just be so efficient, even though he might not be passing the ball all over the field like James Winston was where they're having to play all these shootouts and stuff? He could be so efficient with that offense that he could end up being like a top six, top eight quarterback in the NFL this year in terms of fans. It's the quarterback tight end episode and I feel the same way about Brady and Grunk.

They're so famous and so ubiquitous and so well known and so many people want them on their team. they're just the odds of getting Tom Brady's an actual value in your draft, however your draft goes or whoever's in your draft, just seems so low to me. It's the most high-profile team change. I don't know, maybe in NFL history, at least since Brett Far have left for the Packers. You know, the idea you're going to get Tom Brady as a sleeper just seems ludicrous to me.

Same with Gronk. It doesn't matter where he's ranked. Someone's reaching for Tom Brady. I don't want it to be made because he's not going to go at a place that it's a good value. Jared Gough is interesting because Jared Gough, two years ago, was an amazing fantasy quarterback. So I could see Goff just being top five. And everyone's like, oh, yeah, right, that happened.

If Ryan Tannahill's top five again and the Titans are once again, this incredible, incredible team with this very anachronistic offense, I will take that L. and I'll, you know what, I'll eat the thing. It'll be fine. But I'd rather be, I'm willing to lose that way. But Rogers is not at all surprising. Goff would not be surprising me. And then Cam Newton obviously is a very good football player.

But we'll see with that offense. And the last time Cam played a full season, he was the quarterback. too. Who's your favorite guy in this tier? Roger's getting, getting Rogers very late is just, you know, he's still in Aaron Rogers. And at a certain point, it's almost like people. I mean, you could say the same thing with the name value that someone will overdraft him. But if he's not being overdrafted, I actually think he's weirdly, weirdly underrated. It's very strange. There's a very big disconnect between people who are on Twitter and then real people in real life. And it depends where

he's going. And if not, Jared Goff, I do, as a last round pick is pretty incredible. And then let's go to guys we don't have on our top 150, but we still like snubs, if you will. Yeah, let's everybody grab one snub. I just want to shout out Daniel Jones. Nice. With the gigantes, I mean, Daniel Jones, you know, kind of like Trubisky from a couple years ago,

don't watch him play. Don't watch him. Just look at the numbers, and you'll be happy. He is... That's the Josh Allen syndrome. Yeah, it's like, Josh, don't watch him play. It's going to be really a lot of emotions, and it might be more than you can handle,

but the end result will be good. It's like a psychedelic journey. It's going to be a bad trip, but like, you know, it'll be better for it. And then also I just want to shout out Gardner Minshu, who we mentioned earlier, but is deeply underrated. TK., who you're shouting out? Joe Burrow is an interesting one to me, because not just because of what he was able to do as a passer last season, you know, basically unprecedented passing numbers in college football. Like, that was the biggest buzzsaw offense we've seen in years, if not ever. So I'm really excited to kind of see what he can do as a rookie.

but the other thing that really makes him interesting is like Daniel Jones, like Gardner-Menschu, he's really athletic as a runner and as a scrambler. So he has the sneaky Konami code upside in terms of his ability to add points as a rusher. And so I think he's another really interesting one that you could just grab. I wouldn't necessarily go in there depending on him as your QB1. But if you are playing in a Superflex league, I think he's a good value. and, you know, if you feel like having a backup quarterback on your roster, then he's a potential option.

He'd probably be the type of guy you can get on the waivers, but it wouldn't be too surprising to me if he was a fantasy factor like Daniel Jones was last year. Yeah, I like, if I had to pick one guy, I think it's Daniel Jones. Daniel Jones was nuts last year. He had like four games where he was like the QB1. He just had these massive spikes where you could get some wins and fun got to watch. I think it's DJ for me. If the season gets canceled, the one silver lining will be I don't have to watch the Giants.

and Jason Garrett's coordinated offense. If I'm spared of that, I, you know what? It won't be the worst thing. All right, let's go to the tight ends and tight end tiers. Again, there's just a structural similarity here to quarterbacks where there's a top two. It's very clear, a weird middle of the question of where to take them. And then just a lot of people to sort through, a lot of upside at the end. That's really just about picking, throwing the right darts.

So start tier one. It's Travis Kelsey and the Chiefs and George Carroll and the 49ers. I mean, I don't think there's any question here. the only question here is like is George Kittle first but no because Travis Kelsey's done it more. I think Kelsey runs way more routes too I believe he's just it that offense is different they ask Kittal to block and all that stuff and Kelsey is definitely more you know blocking can you imagine you're in a league that gives points for pancakes then yes

then George Kittles maybe the number one player periods but otherwise that's Robert Mays is fantasy league yeah just all blocking Quentin Nelson first overall all right tier two this is where it gets interesting to me. Zach Ertz and the Eagles, Mark Andrews on the Ravens, Darren and the Raiders, Evan Ingram and the Giants. I'm just wondering if Ertz deserves his own tier or if him and Andrews should split off because I don't know if Ertz and Engram should be in the same tier. Earths has just been doing it longer. Yeah. Yeah. I'm down with this tier as is. I think Ertz is getting worse each year and Ingram. Aren't we all? He hasn't been out. We're all just

declining. Relatable. If Evan Ingram ever puts it together, like his per game numbers are nuts. And he put him together last. year and then it got hurt. I know, but I think he deserves to be in there because, honestly, I think I'd rather have Evan Ingram than Zach Ertz this year. I mean, Dallas Goddard, the other titan on the Eagles, is nipping at Zach Ertz's heels. And he probably would have nipped even more last year if he didn't injure his calf in the preseason and then it lingered the entire season. I think this tier is the one that I, like I said at the beginning of the show, this isn't the tier I want. And I know that they, like JJ Zacharisen, I think was talking about

middle tier titans never, never really work out because you want to find the, the, this year Mark Andrews. You don't want to draft this. You don't want to draft Mark Andrews. You want to find this year's Mark Andrews, which would be like a guy in tier seven. But I can't help but be intrigued by these guys because I think they could all put up really strong numbers. I like Darren Waller a lot. I just want to shout out real quick Riley McAtee, who is the brains of a lot of what we do here at the Ringer. And he has an excellent stat on Darren Waller, which is the only players who put up Darren Waller's stat line last year. It has only happened. Oh, I saw this, yeah.

This is in the blurb on the ringer fantasy guy. Yes. Shout out the ringer fantasy football guide. Check that out of fantasyfuttle. The list of tight ends who have matched Waller's 1145 yards in the last 20 years is Travis Kelsey, Zacherts, George Kettle, Jimmy Graham, Rob Gruncowski, Antonio Gaineski, Antonio Gaines. Jesus. Shout out to Darren Waller, who came from obscurity. That's like a Hall of Fame group right there.

Yes, it is. All right. Let's look at tier three. So tier one is Kittal and Kelsey. Tier two is Ertz, Mark Andrews Waller and Evan Ingram. Tier three, Tyler Higby on the Rams, Hayden Hurst on the Falcons, Hunter Henry on the Chargers, Austin Hooper on the Browns, and Jared Cook on the Saints. This is the gross tier.

This tier is somehow grosser than the tier after it. This one's weird. So Hayden Hurst has done not very little in his NFL career and is basically going to Atlanta. I like him a lot because he replaced your middle school rival. bully whatever, Austin Hooper in Atlanta. Hooper was the number one tight end through 10 weeks. Nemesis. And now Hayden Hurst is basically being brought it and be like, do that. So I think Haydenhurst, if he can do even a fraction, that's a really good value.

And then there's also Tyler Higby on the Rams who kind of in December, Tyler Higby led all players in receiving yards. Like not tight ends, like all players. So if the Rams, and now Brandon Cooks is gone. So if the Rams stick to that offense, that's one of the reasons I'm down at Cooper Cup is that I think Higby, he took a lot out of a cup. up's role. And I think that if the Rams really do stick more of their tight ends, Higby is to me the most likely person here to like permanently jump to that tier two role. But him and Hirst to me jump out.

Hunter Henry, Hooper and Cook to me have all had their best seasons and are going to go down this year. Higby and Hurst have their best in front of them. I'd like to nominate Hunter Henry as the titan, Stephen Glansberg. What, so I got to sit here and you need dessert alone like I'm fucking Steven Glansberg? I get. Yeah. I mean, what do you want me to do? I don't know. No, then it's fine. Relax, man. I'll see you later.

It's fine. I'll be fine. Because no one be talking about Hunter Henry. Well, no, Josh Allen's Glansberg, because he's the one sitting alone in his own tier. Nah, but everyone talks about it. He's popular. He's so popular. He's alone.

Hunter Henry was like the talk of the fantasy community last year. He was like, finally going to be healthy. And he actually paid off. He's the Titan 8 last year. What are your guys' thoughts on Hunter Henry? I don't think about Hunter Henry. Really? He's tough because he's a really good player

and he's very athletic. He basically fits all what you want from a fantasy tight end. But I just think there's so many question marks about the offense and the quarterback situation there. How are we saying this about Hunter Henry when Hyfitz just did this whole thing about how Keenan Allen could actually end up being great

with this new situation? Because I think that the Chargers' overall passing volume in both attempts and yardage will drop. but that Keenan Allen because to Rod Taylor is the Chargers quarterback the sixth pick Justin Herbert is going to take over he's a rookie I am dubious of his skill set but history says he's going to start at some point this year

I think that overall they're going to drop because they're not Philip Rivers and they're going to have to pass they're going to pass less and they will not only be a more run oriented team because the head coach Anthony Lynn is a running back coach by trade but also just they're going to have to rely on quarterbacks less

and they won't be as good they're going to sustain drives for less but I think within that they're actually going to rely on Keenan Allen more because I think there is a tendency among those quarterbacks to look to their number one receiver more, but also Keenan Allen's skill set just the actual routes he runs works with what Terod Taylor does and what Herbert will have to do. With Henry, I am, Keenan Allen is kind of like Kyrie Irving. He just creates space. Like it doesn't matter what's going on around him. He's not the best athlete. He's not the fastest. He's not the best, most agile. But he can create space out of anything. That's a huge

skill, especially without experience quarterbacks. Hunter Henry is all these variables of he's never stayed healthy. And he has the short and off season where one of the key concerns for players was people being injured in the short and off season. Hunter Henry's had injury, like offseason injuries

mixed with he has no practice time with these quarterbacks, which I know Keenan Allen doesn't either. But Keenan's skill says just better suited to what these young quarterbacks are going to need, or not young, because Tara Taylor's been around. But I don't like Hunter Henry because it relies on, there's a lot of touchdown dependency and I think he could be really great.

There's no doubt, no one is doubting whether Hunter Henry's good at football. I'm doubting that there's just no track record for him staying on the field. And unlike in years past with Philip Rivers, it's not like that, well, if he's healthy, he's definitely going to produce.

The definitely part is gone. Now you're speculating on health and on the offense in a way that you haven't had to do in the past. Do you like him more or less than Austin Hooper and Jared Cook? I don't like Cook because so much of Cook's value is touchdown dependent and Cook just disproportionately had a lot of touchdowns last year that I don't think is going to be able to repeat, especially since they added Emmanuel Sanders to kind of do that job. So I like Cook the least in this group for sure because the same sign of Manuel Sanders.

DK, what do you like? I think I like just after talking through all this. I think I like Cooper a little bit more, especially if Njoku gets traded. I know that they requested a trade. I haven't heard anything since that happened. But I mean, in an offense that is we project we'll use the tight ends pretty frequently. I don't think he's going to be the same, have the same upside as he had in the Falcons offense, but I still think he's going to get used.

They made him the highest paid tight end or close to it for a reason. They're going to use him in that offense. But if I'm looking at this tier, Higby, to me, is the highest upside guy. Like, he could legitimately be the tight end one. It wouldn't be that big of shock to see him be the tight end one. He had four straight games of 100 yards, which is like never. players in receiving yards in December. More receiving yards than Michael Thomas in December.

So I would say Higbee is my top guy, Hearst, Hooper, Henry, and then Cook. I agree. Hey guys, it's Liz Kelly. After the show, be sure to check out another sports podcast on Spotify. Here's a quick trailer. In Formula One, the race is on. Late breaking is wheel to wheel.

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Listen to F1 Paddock Pass for free exclusively on Spotify. Okay, let's go to Tier 4, which is Rob Kronkowski on the Buccaneers, Noah Fant with the Broncos, Dallas Goddard on the Eagles, T.J. Hockinson with the Lions, and then Mike Gisicki on the Dockyre. dolphins. This is where we get speculative. These are just basically, it's basically Grunkowski, who didn't play last year, and then a bunch of young

tight ends who have not broken out and basically you're just throwing darts at like, okay, this is the breakout year because rookie tight ends don't do anything, but maybe these guys will. You're hoping for the kiddle season from one of these guys. Yes, precisely. So let's just get the old guy out of the way first. I don't like Grunk because I think he's going to get overdrafted because his name's Rob

Gronkowski's the best titan of all time. So naturally, just not going to get him in a value. because it doesn't matter where he's ranked. Someone's just like, fuck it. I want Gronk on my team. And then they'll reach two rounds for him. So I don't want to do that. Oh, okay.

All right, there we go. I was going to, I was, so I was the Gronk. I was waiting for D.K. Because I know he likes Gronk. I mean, I think you're right, though, Danny. Like, he's getting drafted. He's going to get, yeah, I'm going to be like, wow, that was, that was perfect.

I have no rebuttal. No. We figured out. Let's go home. I think you're right. Like, his name recognition might get him overdrafted. and, you know, I think there's a chance that he'll live up to and or outplays ADP, but he is one of those players that's very touchdown-dependent,

and that's hard to predict whether that's going to happen or not. I happen to believe that he is, like, the most touchdown-reliable guy, you know, in terms of at least at the tight-end position, I mean, if you look in his whole career, he's scored more touchdowns than the other players since he came into the league. So, you know, the proof is in the pudding. But, of course, his last full season or last close to full season, he only scored three touchdowns. He's obviously just coming off of a season

which he didn't play at all. There's a ton of question marks around him. So, you know, I don't blame you for wanting to avoid him. I just happen to think he's still, I think he's going to be good. Do you see the picture of him the other day? He looks big. He's gotten back up to like 260 plus. I got a question for you guys about guys who miss a year

due to whatever purpose, like an injury or whatever, some people make the argument like, hey, fresh legs. Like, he hasn't played. Right. It's not like he forgot how to play football. Like, do you agree that that sometimes could be better? Like, oh, you know, AJ Green, he has one less year on his tires. Well, obviously, it's dependent on the person and this is an unanswerable question.

But I do think it depends on the sport. Arod, when he got suspended for your, came back and looked better than he had it a long time. I think football is probably closer to like MMA, where it's like, Conner McGregor has to work so hard to train and then you like become really famous and make all your money on whiskey. And then you're like, oh, I don't, I don't really want to do that again. And that's really hard. Now, that's different, obviously, because it's an individual thing in football so much about the team and the locker room and being around people. But it's not like being around people is going to be a big thing this year. It's not going to be a lot of post-curricular

hanging out on these teams. So with, you know, coronavirus and everything, it's all restricted. They're trying to get these guys out of the building as quickly as possible. So I, I, I am dubious, to say the least. And I think that it actually reminds me if there's certain hands, if you play cards, whether it's blackjack or poker or whatever, there's kind of a hand that you've won with,

like one with a few times, once a big hand. And you get like this emotional attachment to something you get dealt. And you kind of play a little irrationally because you've done well with that in the past. That's gronk to me. Yes,

he has the most touchdown since anyone when he came in the league, even with the year off. But people remember that so fondly that they're going to reach for him to a ridiculous degree. And I just, I don't see him falling to a value spot.

There's the other thing that kind of works against him too, I think, is his, the way he's used in this offense is a big question mark. Like, if they have him blocking a lot, because he's still one of the best blocking tight ends in the NFL, if not the best blocking tight end in the NFL. So, you know, if they use him in routes a lot, that like helps his value a lot. But if he's,

if he's in their half the time, like blocking for Tom Brady, that's not necessarily a good thing. All right. Let's just go through a couple other guys. so Noah Fant T.J. Hawkinson and Gassicki are all very similar to me. Noah Fent and T.J.

Hockinson are both teammates from college in Iowa who were both drafted in the first round who did not much last year, but rookie tight ends don't really ever do anything. And there's this long history of Iowa tight ends who, Iowa tight ends are like LSU receivers. They don't do anything in college and then they're great in the NFL. And Noah Fant stat line as a rookie was basically the same as George Kittles as a rookie. it's like very similar. So Fant, Hawkinson, and Gassicki,

which of those would you want to bet on as either your, you know, dart through a first tight end or just an bench guy? Which of those guys do you want? Or do you want Dallas Goddard and the Eagles? That's very tough. I think I have Hawkinson first.

I think because he, number one, I think he's the best overall player of that group. He's just a really good player. And he's going into an offense where he's the number one guy. Dallas Goddard is really good too, but he's still got Ertz in front of him, which just worries me.

And then, so I would say Hawkinson is my top guy in this group, in terms of the Fant Goddard-Hawkinson-Gissiki group. And then I would have Fant second. And, you know, anytime a rookie or anytime a tight end does nothing as a rookie, like you just kind of have to take that with a grain of sol, it's just very uncommon like you mentioned, to have tight ends do a lot as a rookie. So I'm not necessarily giving up on Hawkinson. He was hurt for a big portion of his rookie season.

I still think he has potential to kind of have that kiddle-like explosion as a sophomore. And then Fant, too. And I saw this stat from Adam, Adam Webbeton, I've established the run. Posted this on Twitter. Noah Fant had 562 receiving yards as a rookie, which doesn't sound like a lot. But since 2010, only nine other rookie tight ends have topped 500 yards. That list is Rob Gncrowski, Aaron Hernandez, Evan Ingram, George Kittle, Mark Andrews, and Chris Herndon. That was includes of them.

Shout out, motherfucking Chris Herndon. So yeah, basically what I'm saying is Fant has, number one, he's got sort of that history behind him where you like what you saw from him as a rookie. And he's exactly what you're looking for in terms of what the prototype of a breakout tight end is. He's super athletic, which is the big thing. He's just like this really rare athlete at the position. He can run routes. He's very agile, all that stuff. And so I think that's what makes me very interesting.

at him. I think Hawkinson is a better overall player and he compares more closely to Hawkinson just stylistically. But Fan is that really, really athletic move guy that they could get involved. He has that really strong yak ability to turn like a little dump off into a big play. So I like I like both of those guys. And then I like, and then I'd probably say Godder and then Gisicki. I'm not as, I'm not as high on Gisiki. Well, Gisiki, here's the thing with Gisiki. Watch him in training camp because coming into training camp, I'm very down on him. Because the offense offensive

coordinator is Chan Galey and Shan Galey. Mike Clay, he's been in his great stat that Chan Galee is an offense coordinator is dead last in giving target share to tight ends over the last five seasons. Dead last among NFL play callers. So he doesn't look to tight ends. And in fact, Mike Clay also wrote that three of

Shane Galey's past five offenses have not targeted the tight end more than 31 times. That's as a position. That is wild. Jesus. So on one hand, I am staying far away from Mike Gisiki even though I enjoy watching him as a player because he tries to hurdle every time.

Do you guys remember in Madden when they introduced the hurdle button and they made it like the Y button? I'm an Xbox guy. And they made it the Y button and then everyone kind of just started hurtling by accident. That's Mike Gisciki. He'll hurdle side. I've seen him hurdle defenders,

cornerbacks, sideways, going out of bounds where there's no yardage to be gained just because he wants to do it. Very entertaining. But don't think he has fantasy value until this week, Alan Herns and Albert Wilson of the dolphins opted out of the season. There's not a ton of dolphins a throw-to. They really only have now four good receivers.

And I'm curious to see if they involve Gersicki more. I am very down on him. But I'm willing to change my mind if in practice there is a discernible difference in this season from Schengeli's past. Because as bad as his past has been, I wouldn't be surprised if he's like, well, yeah, 2020. Let's throw the whole plan out the window. That's totally in play this year. All right. Let's go to Tier 5.

Jack Doyle with the Colts. John is Smith and the Titans Eric Ebron and the Steelers who I think is D.K.'s Lays' least favorite football player. And then Chris Herndon on the Jets. Craig, you want to get your Chris Herndon diatribe in?

This is all it is. This is Herndon's third year and he was hurt all of last year and suspended for a portion of it. He played literally one snap or something. His rookie year, he had one of the best rookie years of tight ends. He's one of the only people

who has chemistry with Sam Darnold. He's a freak athlete. And he was the tight end seven as a rookie in his final 10 games. So I think from an upside standpoint, he is by far the most appealing option

in this group. I will say your sleepers used to be terrible players. Now you pick good players. Your sleepers used to be like Carlos Hyde and people. I want to hear your Jack Doyle thing, Highfitz, because I don't agree with it. Jack Doyle led the Colts and Target share once Eric Ebron left. And obviously

Ty White Hilton was hurt. But I think I look at it this way. The Philip Rivers, I'm not as concerned with continuity with the cults, because they're very, they've basically kept every position except quarterback, but Philip Rivers has worked with the staff before. So I think that we can look to like the 2013, 14, 15 charges is a guide for what they might be doing here. And I think that if you want Hunter Henry, you might be better off trying to grab Jack Doyle

than actual Hunter Henry because T.Y. Hilton's clearly the number one receiver and you can loosely call him Keenan Allen in this situation. I think that Jack Doyle might end up being the second or third option in this team because all the other options on the Colts Michael Pittman is the rookie receiver at USC. I don't think he's the kind of NFL player who's going to be able to get separation as rookie immediately.

Paris Campbell barely played last year and has not really showed NFL level route running. D.K., please correct me if I'm wrong, but he's kind of, I don't want to call him a gadget player, but they envision him as almost like doing Curtis Samuel things near the line of scrimmage. He's not really projected to be like, you know, a polished route runner anytime soon.

Jack Doyle, I think, is going to be who Philip Rivers is looking to in the end zone. And again, he led the Colts and Target chair for the final six weeks of the season or whenever Ebron went out. They've already shown they're comfortable with him leading the charge. And I think that Doyle was basically

borderline going undrafted. I would not at all be surprised if he leads all tight ends and touchdowns this year. I'm with you, Craig. I don't really see it. And I think the touchdown thing is the only thing that would really kind of change my mind. Like if he does have that touch and upside,

which I'm not sure I see, but Ebron had 13 touchdowns two years ago. So it's not like the Colts don't go to the... Basically what I'm saying is Ebron and Doyle the Ebron thing happened

when Jack Doyle got hurt. That's really what I'm saying is the Colts target with Frank Reich, their head coach. They target the tight ends a lot. And don't forget Frank Reich was on the Eagles,

like coaching staff when they were going to Zach Ertz. They liked the tight end position. Ebron had the 13 touchdowns when Doyle was hurt. Then they split the tight end position when they were healthy. Neither them did much.

Ebron's gone. Jack Doyle could... I'm not saying it's like. I'm saying that he's basically going undrafted. You might get 2018 Eric Ebron. That's to me that your best spot. Jack Doyle is like the Cameron Brate of this group. Here's where I worry.

His yards per reception, 10.4 is one of the lowest on the team last year. Yards per target, 6.2 was one of the lowest on the team. That's what worries me. He's not like a dynamic separator guy that can get open, like it split off in the formation, all that stuff. that's what makes me a little bit worried. I do agree with these. Probably going to get a lot of targets, but he's kind of like the Sony Michelle

of tight ends where it's just not super valuable targets. You did that on purpose to make me change my mind. That was so mean. However, I agree I'd rather have Chris Herndon. However, today I learned minutes ago that Jack Doyle was a pro bowler last year. Did you know this?

That's not okay. You know what? Pro bowler Jack Doyle. It did not come in. He did not know. Doyle's never done it. Doyle, when he was alone in 2017 on the Colts, he had 108 targets that year.

He turned 80 catches into 690 yards, and he was the tight end nine. Yes, that's the Sony Michelle. That's the Sony Michelle. He's been a top 10 tight end. He's done it. He's done it. Like, you calling him, like, he could be Hunter Henry.

Hunter Henry had eight touchdowns as a rookie in like 10 games. Like, Jack Doyle's never even come, he's never had more than five in a season, 108 targets. I think he's like the definition of a high floor, extremely low ceiling. Yeah. It just depends on what you're trying to get in this.

He was fifth in targets that year. And he was the tight end nine. He scored five touchdowns. I mean, I'm saying that there's a, Philip Rivers has been going to tight ends his career and that it's, I don't believe in most of the Colts receivers. There's a lot of people on paper that are blocking him on the depth chart that I

don't think in reality when they're actually getting to practicing or I don't think there's much between him and being the number two option on this team. I don't think Michael Pittman is going to have a great season. I don't really believe in Paris Campbell for this year. I actually think Zach Pascall is one of their better players. I'm not sure he's going to get the playing time. I think that Jack Doyle is actually going to be their second most reliable player in the red zone. The COVID thing, too, might be, like, if you are a believer in the idea that the veterans are going to have a big leg up over rookies and stuff this season because of lack of preparation time and snaps and all that stuff, that could push Doyle up a little bit.

And to be clear, I'm not saying he's as athletic or as talented as Hunter Henry. saying that we know that the Chargers are showing Naheem Hines tape of Darren Sprouls and Danny Woodhead. I think that it's not a leap to say that they're also envisioning a Chargers-like role for Jack Doyle. Showing him Antonio Gates. Yeah, he's Antonio Gates.

Jack Doyle's not that. Jack Doyle's not that. Jack Doyle's not that. Same player. Same athleticism. He's like the catch and fall down guy. He's not going to be breaking tackles running for 90s. Jack Doyle is a Hall of Famer.

Also, he played basketball at UNC. That's what I'm trying to say. He turned him by a mile in this tier. Okay. Anyone we didn't mention yet. I just want to shout to Ian Thomas on the Panthers, who is really good. And just, I hate to say athletic because every tight end's athletic, but he's athletic. Well, he fits the, he fits the prototype of the types of players that break out. Yeah. He's athletic. Greg Olson's gone. Yeah. I like Irv Smith. Me second year tight end on Minnesota. I mean, there's not a ton of options in Minnesota. Stefan Diggs has gone in Buffalo. It's Adam Thielen and Kyle Rudolph's getting up there in age. You think Irv Smith could quietly end up sneaking into the low end tight-in one range. Yeah, I agree. The other guy I was going to mention that.

So, like, these guys just didn't make our 150, so they didn't make these tiers. But I would put Jay Sternberger in this tier as well because... In tier five or the Snubs tier? I would put all three of these guys, Ian Thomas, Irv Smith, and Sternberger in that same tier with, like, the John O'Smiths of the world. Okay. So, and the reason I like Jay Sternberger is the same reasons you mentioned, with Erf Smith is basically identical. He's an athletic move tight end.

He led his team in receiving, you know, in college. And he's just like a really good receiver. He's kind of in the same mold as like Mark Andrews type of player. He's in this offense in Green Bay that has no de facto number two. Like I guess Alan Lazard is the number two option. So he could potentially get a lot of targets. He's athletic. He's dynamic.

So he's almost exactly the same as Erf Smith in my mind. Smith could be the de facto number two in Minnesota. So I like both of those guys as sort of late round dart throws. You don't expect them to break out, but they could break out. All right. So which of these tiers do you guys want to get your tight end from? Obviously, factoring in draft value, what you have to give up to get these guys, which is where do you want your tight end starting from?

And how many of these guys are going to take? I think for me it's tier two or four, which is the Ertz, Andrews, Waller, Ingram in tier two, and then the tier four is the dart throws. but like the likely dart throws, like the Noah Fance or like the T.J. Hawkinsons. I've been, so I've been gravitating, I think, to the threes and the fives. So I've been gravitating to the Higbee's Hearsts of the world, even Hooper. And then if I don't get one of those guys, then you just get like three guys or two guys in Tier 5. Like get a Jack Doyle who's got the floor play and then get a guy like Ian Thomas who could get a ton of targets,

Jay Sternberger, who could break out. I think you mean Jack Doyle is the ceiling is the roof because he's the goat. but I see what you're trying to say. Future Hall of Famer, pro bowler. Are you guys ever like the draft Travis Kelsey the second guy? Do you ever do that? Pretty rarely.

Me too. What about you, High Fitz? I'm rarely that guy. I've been thinking about it. I know. Every year I'm like, fuck it, should I just do it? Why do you think none of us do it?

Because I think that every year of the team who wins the league is the guy, oh yeah, he had drafted Jimmy Graham in the 12th. Oh yeah, he drafted Mark Andrews in the 11th, great pick. It's like, I just, your odds are better. of winning your championship. If you can, if Noah Fant becomes a top, or Jack Doyle,

you nail next year's version of the player than trying to trade. Kelsey is this proven production, but as an opportunity cost is really high. Yeah. It's like Lamar Jackson. Well, Lamar's a bad example because he's singular.

But if you have Lamar Jackson outside the top 100 last year, you were really good chance to make playoffs. And I feel the same way. I'm trying to throw darts and hit that tight end. It's going to be a top five guy this year instead of chasing the past production from it. Because this, your running backs are so scarce.

And, like, it's really hard to leave your draft and, like, like, your team if you haven't gotten some solid running backs in the first few rounds. So that's the thing I keep coming back to when it comes to draft. And Travis Kelsey is like, you know, I just like the teams I have better when I have running backs in the first and second or as much as I can. Yeah, and the other thing is, like, in most leagues, you have one tight-end starter. And you have to hit on more running backs and receivers to have a really good team. So I don't know. You could make the argument, I guess, that you have an edge over your league mates if you have one of those elite tight ends in your starting tight end spot. But I don't know.

It's I've just never been super excited to grab those guys that early. It's just the opportunity cost, like, seems too much for me sometimes. Same question with quarterbacks. Where are you guys getting your quarterbacks from this year? Where are you generally, I'm going tier four. Me too. Me too. Stafford, Wends, Breeze, and Rothersburg.

Yeah, I like getting Matt Ryan. wins. I mean, last year is a perfect example. You could get Lamar Jackson in the 10th round, and he was a league winner. So, you know, there's not going to be Lamar Jackson every season, but I'm a big believer in one QB leagues just to wait, just late round quarterback. And then if you don't like your guy, then you can stream a guy. Yeah.

And honestly, these positions are so deep that you might not need to draft a second. Like Chris Herndon might just not get drafted if in a 10th league it's possible. Right, right. So, you know, you want them on your bench in case he goes off, but it's also possible. you can pick these guys out on waivers. So, all right, those are our tiers. Any parting thoughts, gentlemen? Yes, before we go, I want to mention that you compared Keenan Allen to Kyrie Irving by saying

he's not the fastest, he's not the quickest, but he creates space. That is so wrong. Kyrie Irving is by far one of the fastest, quickest players in the NBA and is not Keenan. I meant the skill set of he can just create space out of thin air because that's how he, and then I was thinking he's not like Tyree Kill is the fastest player in the NFL. Well, they were just beefing on Twitter. He's not as fast.

He's not as big as Mike Evans who was just beefing with him on Twitter. He's skill set is he can create space like Kyrie Irving. I did not mean to compare the athleticism. Kyrie Irving is like the Antonio Brown of point guards. Well, they have other things that aren't in common, but I clearly knew what you meant

because I'm using context clues. Okay. All right. I'm just making sure, you know, just getting it out there. Look, man. You know what? You know, to all the people who are very mad

about my Kyrie Irving comparison, I just meant that, you know, you watch Kyrie Irving, you're like, wow, where did he get space for that shot? That's all I meant. You need to watch more bubble. Oh, yeah, to see Kyrie Irving, who's not in the bubble? You know what? I'm going to watch my nets.

I'm going to watch. I'm going to put money on Garrett Temple and Jamal Crawford because I am a huge NBA fan. All right. Let's get that out of here. You know what, I'm not happy for you. I'm happy. Thank you for dealing with the edit when the hurricane hit my house. So thank you for that, but not for the show.

Thank you, D.K. Thank you, Devere for listening. We'll see you guys on one day.