The Ringer NFL Show - RB Rankings, Tiers, and Fears

Episode Date: August 5, 2022

We discuss the concern around Matthews Stafford’s elbow injury before running through our current running back tiers and re-sorting them live on the pod, based on our analysis and news from around training camp. We finish up by reading a listener email. (2:07) - Matthew Stafford's Arm Injury (8:57) - Tier 1: Jonathan Taylor, Christian McCaffrey (10:21) - Tier 2: Najee Harris, Austin Ekeler, Derrick Henry, Dalvin Cook, Joe Mixon, Alvin Kamara, Saquon Barkley (21:11) - Tier 3: D’Andre Swift, Leonard Fournette, Aaron Jones, James Conner, Javonte Williams, Nick Chubb (29:38) - Tier 4: Ezekiel Elliott, Cam Akers, Travis Etienne, Breece Hall, David Montgomery (36:36) - Tier 5: Clyde Edwards-Helaire, JK Dobbins, Elijah Mitchell, AJ Dillon, Rashaad Penny, Antonio Gibson, Miles Sanders, Josh Jacobs, Kareem Hunt (42:10) - Tier 6: Chase Edmonds, Devin Singletary, Cordarrelle Patterson, Tony Pollard, Damien Harris, Rhamondre Stevenson, Melvin Gordon, Kenneth Walker III (51:17) - Tier 7: Dameon Pierce, Michael Carter, James Cook, Tyler Allgeier, Isaiah Spiller, Alexander Mattison, Darrell Henderson, James Robinson, Jamaal Williams (54:19) - Tier 8: Raschaad White, J.D. McKissic, Kenneth Gainwell, Ronald Jones, Raheem Mostert, Khalil Herbert, D’Onta Foreman (60:59) - Tier 9: Zamir White, Brian Robinson, Hassan Haskins, Gus Edwards, Tyrion Davis-Price, Nyheim Hines, Mike Davis, Mark Ingram Check out The Ringer’s Fantasy Football Draft Guide for rankings, tiers, sleepers, and more! Email us! [e-mail]. Hosts: Danny Heifetz, Danny Kelly, and Craig Horlbeck Producer: Craig Horlbeck Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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One of the Ringer Fantasy Football Show. My name is Danny Hyphitz, and I am joined by Danny Kelly and Kirk Whirlbeck. You can check out our fantasy football. rankings are live and updated at Fantasyfootball. Dot the ringer.com. You can check out our updated rankings there. And our tiers for each position. Today we're going to be doing our running back tiers now.

Our tears are up and we're basically going to go through our tiers today at running back. And we're going to look at them and we're going to decide who's right and wrong. We're going to argue about them. We're going to decide what we need to change on the fly. We basically reach our tears through like what, an uneasy tension. I love how we're like, hey, so the tears that are up right now and the guide, yeah, those aren't it. we're going to fix those on this pod right now. Here's the thing about rankings, Craig.

Like, until the point in which you say, okay, fine, I'm done, like, I'm a tinkerer. I'm going to tinker 100% of the time. It's like the Pirates of the Caribbean line. Their guidelines, you know? Also, if Beyonce can edit her album, or, like, did she do that? She did.

She did. She did. Editing shit from, like, two years ago. We could do whatever. The fans bullied Beyonce into changing song lyrics. The Strangers things, finale's being edited?

Like, we can edit our freaking rankings. There's actually news. is coming out. I don't know what news is coming out about the upside down. I love strangers things. That's my favorite show. Is that what I said? You did. Well, sorry. Anyway, we're going to go through our tears, but first, just one piece of news that's kind of been trickling, but I think we got an update today. So Matthew Stafford has this kind of elbow arm injury going on. Jordan Roderick from the Athletic, who's a great reporter, had an update on the athletic kind of clarifying things. and to basically kind of summarize Jordan's report.

Basically, Stafford's arm isn't bothering him for a while. Arm, elbow, I don't know exactly what it is. But I don't know if it's publicly known. But basically it's been bothering like last year too. And he's just a really tough guy. And they basically managed it last year, but he didn't really take any time off. This year they're managing it differently because he's been there.

They know the offense. So he's just kind of taking the time off because he can. So it's kind of like a pain tolerance thing. and they basically will probably have him throw more later this month. And that doesn't mean it's not concerning. But when he does throw, he looked fine. Hyvitz, I don't know if you saw, but Ian Rapoport reported that it is bad tendonitis.

Yeah. Bad tendonitis. Okay. I don't like this at all. So I asked Jordan Rodriguez, I know Jordan. So I asked her on a scale of 1 to 10, how concerned are you about this?

And she said 5, which was... Oh, that's more than I thought. That's like a 7 or an 8. You know, it was so funny. I didn't want to tell her this, but I was like, I don't know if that makes me feel better or worse. That gives me weird feelings in my stomach.

Well, as she wrote on Twitter, like they, essentially this is nothing new. This is exactly what Matt Stafford dealt with last year. And he played through the pain. Essentially, the idea is Stafford is tough as hell and he's just going to play through it regardless. So like,

we probably shouldn't worry about this. Bag of bones. He's tough, though. This guy's played through like every injury there is. Yes. Well, not, I mean, he's missed some significant. time in his career from injuries. But like, this cannot make you guys feel good. He has tendonitis

in his elbow. He's not throwing. They basically said, like, we thought he'd be good by now, and he's kind of not, so we're taking it easy on him. And, like, he'll start throwing when we start prepping for the bills, like at the end of August. Well, he's throwing, he's throwing just a little. Because, like, during this whole hoopla about Stafford's arm falling off today, like, there was also tweets going out about him, like perfectly hitting Tutu Atwell and stride 50 yards downfield. That was John Welford. That was the backup. No, I thought it was Stafford. Somebody wrote Stafford.

He didn't throw a Wednesday. We're recording us on Thursday. Yeah, well, I could be wrong, but I thought it said Stafford. Regardless, like, he's on a pitch count. He's on a plan. There's a very specific plan. And I think that it's like load management. They're trying not to have him, you know, make it worse than it needs to be.

But it sounds like it is a deal that we have to monitor. End of the day, I'm not really too worried. It is maybe like a tiebreaker, though. Like when you're sitting there on the clock, tiebreaker? we already have Justin Jefferson over Cooper Cup for our top receiver. I think that we're not going to move Cooper Cup any lower than that. We can talk about that. We get on our running back tears if you would. But like other quarterback, sure, if you want to go like, you know, Aaron Rogers and Tom Brady over. I mean, yeah, sure. It's like at the point, yeah, sure,

it can be a tiebreaker for Stafford. But I'm torn between like, how do we ignore this? But I actually kind of feel like it's probably the reality is I think we completely underrate how many like injections these guys get before the games anyway and it'll probably be fine. I like my quarterback's without tendon issues and they're throwing elbow, but. Well, you know what, Craig? That's just you. Jordan saying it's a five is not great. Well, but here's the thing. You know what I was, you know what? I should have clarified. One does it mean you're not concerned? One could be like, you know, you're totally happy.

You know, even one to 10, that's kind of subjective, right? Yeah. Maybe one, it's like you're 100% confident. It'll be good for this season. And 10 is you're 100% confident. You're not. And five is perfectly neutral. It feels like we're at the stage where all the coaches, including McVeyer, downplaying it, saying everything's fine. We're just like keeping them on pitch count and all of the beat reporters are just kind of echoing that but it sort of feels like everyone's denying something that could potentially be much worse than it is but right now there's no there's no there's no there's no purpose in speculating because we're not there yet but that's

kind of what this pod does and all the fantasy pods do is we kind of speculate and get scared about things and get scared about small dogs small dogs bar i don't know we can't be freaking out we come too far uh uh i am watching the video of Stafford absolutely. This is from the Rams actual account. Stafford just throwing a laser downfield to 22. That was probably from 2021. They're just nothing.

Yeah. There's just last year. Frican trying to slip it past us. I don't know. Keep an eye on this, but it's not nothing. Yeah. It's not nothing. We'll see if it's something.

Okay. Oh, God. Can you imagine if Walford is the fricking starter for the Rams this year? That's going to suck for Cupp. That's going to suck for Alan Robinson. Our boy, it's going to suck for everybody in this freaking offense. Poor Alan Robinson. is cursed. He's probably... Oh, my God.

You know what? Maybe that's the real thing. It's like the fact that we were all like, Alan Robinson got Stafford finally. We jinxed it. Well, we were freaking talking to Tim Patrick last week and then he fucking tore his ACL. I don't know, man. Alan Robinson is probably paying for Stafford's medical care himself to keep him on the field. Yeah. It's out of pocket. Go to Europe. Get some injections of some stuff. I don't know. It's Los Angeles. You can get whatever drugs you want. I mean, Aaron Rogers. Nano bones. Find the ayahuasca, whatever. We'll talk about the Rogers stuff.

later. I wanted to talk about it immediately. I was talked out of it. Okay. Let's get into our running back tiers. So again, I think tiers are really important because I've said it before, I'll say it again. When we put up our rankings and we have like the 20th running back and the 21st running back, spoiler, we don't always give a shit who what order someone goes in. Like the 21st, the 20th, sometimes we just don't care. Our 50th player, 51st, there's not a huge gap. But there are absolutely buckets of players that we feel different about the next group of player. And personally, this for me, I don't want to speak for you guys, it is way more important for me for everyone to understand how we think of these players in groups, both with their potential upsides and

downsides. And that when you're drafting and the clocks tick, tick, and there's like 14 seconds left and you're between the short-neback receiver and maybe you've had three beers. And you need to look down real quick and you need to say, wait, I'm not picking in for 11 picks. And there's two good running backs I left left that I like, but there's like nine good receivers. I'll take the running. Like you need to know how your tiers fit or like, wow, there's like eight quarterbacks I still would be perfectly happy with. I'll take the last tight end I want. So I don't have to like stream tight ends all year. And this is why we do tiers. So we're going to go through our tears and make sure we're going to try to go on the fly. Craig Deakin and I,

we're going to basically see if we still agree on how we've tiered. Because when we make our tears, we disagree. So is that how you guys feel about tears as well? Yeah. And it's about, It's about looking for tier drops. Like the drop from one tier to the next is significant enough that it alters your strategy. And it helps you decide when you're going to take a certain player, which round kind of like target certain players. So yeah, I think it's super helpful. All right. So let's just get into it.

Again, you can go to fantasyf football. Dot the arena.com. And if you click on the positional tab, the tiers appear. So we don't have our tiers when you're just looking at every position. But if you hit their little RB button on the fantasy football. Football.3.com. Our tiers will appear, and that's what we're going through right now. Okay.

Tier one, which basically I think is guys you could take first overall. Yeah. Yep. We have Jonathan Taylor for the Colts and Christian McAfee for the Panthers. Cool with that, right? I mean, this one's pretty cut and dry, right? Yeah. I think my only question here is we're kind of putting ourselves a little out there.

We have Justin Jefferson as a number one receiver. Cooper Cup is number two. But I think a lot of people really are debating Cooper Cup anywhere from number two to number five. Does the Stafford stuff at all make you more willing to take McCaffrey over Cooper Cup in any way? Or does not change anything for the Cup in terms of these two players? Yeah, I think so. I think so, too. I would, I think you could take McCaffrey number one overall. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Okay. Not much there. I think, honestly, I think that's the thing. If they both play the whole season, McCaffrey will probably have a bitter season. Right. But Taylor

just is more likely to not make you feel dumb, whereas McCaffrey might get hurt. But either way, McCaffrey's like the more, you know, got a risk to get the biscuit. Taylor's just a much safer, but like higher floor guy. But yeah, well, those are the number two. I would say, that's correct. That's a good way of looking at it, like high floor versus high ceiling. Yeah. Tier two, we have Naji Harris for the Steelers.

We have Austin Eccler for the Chargers, Derek Henry for the Titans, Dalvin Cook for the Vikings. Does anything here? Plus Joe Mixon. Joe Mixon. Oh, yeah, sorry. We have Joe Mixon also with the Bengals. I actually don't think Joe Mixon belongs in this tier. I think that Naji, Austin Eklick, Derek,

Anthony Dalvin Cook totally belong here. I think Joe Mixon belongs in the next group. I think you're right, actually. I don't. And based on our rankings overall, like Joe Mixon's 12, and then the next tier starts at 13 with Alvin Kamara. So, like, it kind of makes sense. There's a little bit of a drop in our actual numerical ranks.

So I don't know. I kind of feel like it. Yeah. Craig, you're really high on mixing. Yeah, and these kind of all blend together because you said, you know, we have Mixon and Camer right next each other. I think Camer should be in this tier as well. I don't think we moved Mixing down.

I think Camer should be moved up. Mixon, Mixon got so many touches last year and played the entire season and nobody seems to care. Like I said this on prior positive, Jamar Chase completely outshined and ruined Joe Mixon's like stellar

finally breakout season that everyone's been waiting on. You know there's only three players last year with over 250 carries and 40 catches? It was Jonathan Taylor, Najee Harris, Antonio Gibson and Joe Mixon. Sorry, four players.

Antonio Gibson. Counting is not Craig's four. Forte. No, it's not. But that's not insignificant. Like, I think we all treat Joe Mixon like he catches 20 passes a year. Like, he caught 42. He's had 45 earlier in his career. Forty-three, 35, and 42 are his last three healthy seasons. Like, like we said before, the Bengals offense is only going to get better. I know Hyphen's things are not going to make the playoffs, but their offensive line is inarguably better. Their offense is probably going to be much better. And Joe Mixon is as locked in to a two and a half down role as any other player in the league. I don't see why he should be,

I don't know, apart from guys like, so Dalvin Cook, Derek Henry, what's the difference? Well, that's where we disagree because I think the two and a half down roll thing, one, I think Chris Evans, Captain America is probably going to play a lot of third down. But I guess we have to go to the next tier to kind of explain why I don't think he belongs in tier two. So tier two is Nage Harris, Austin, Eckler, Derek Henry, Dalvin Cook, and we have Joe Mixon. The next tier is a large group of guys. it's Alvin Camer with the Saints Sequin for the Giants He should be in tier two as well

Well I'll just do this tier again But basically when I The next tier I think of It's huge and I'm like Any of these guys Could be a top five running back this year Alvin Camer for the Saints Sequan for the Giants

Deontre Swift for the Lions Letter for Nets for the Bucks Who again I mean Aaron Jones for the Packers James Connor for the Cardinals I mean we have Javante for the Broncos Nick Chub for the Browns And I look at those

and I'm like, Camara's Camara, although I would say he's a touchdown independent. Sequin, actual three down back healthy now. DeAndi Swift, D.K. loves DeAndre. Leonard Fernette literally was a top five running back until he got hurt in week 14. Aaron Jones might be the leading receiver in the Packers this year, at least in terms of catches. James Connor, little top five running back last year. And then, I mean, we can go down and down the list. I'm kind of like a little down on Javon to visiting Broncos camp. But I don't think it's like insulting to put Joe Mixin in that group with guys who

were top five or like that's still a really good group. I just don't think Joe Mixon is like worthy of like a top five pick this year. If you can get Sequin like 16th. He was the RB4 last year. I guess I just don't I don't understand. But that's overall with the season. That's not counting all the injuries that happen on a points per game basis. Mixon's never really been like elite and the points per game is where you win.

Let's see what he was points for game. He was fourth and half PPR in points. He was fourth and points per game. That doesn't do anything for him? Well, it's not top five. That's like top four. that's, I'm kind of on the fence about this because on one hand, I agree with Hyfitt's like, there are some major concerns.

I do think that there's a chance he has some pretty major regression in terms of touchdowns he scored. He's probably due for some touchdown regression. Jonathan Taylor caught like 47 passes. No one seems to have a problem with that. Naim Hines plays on two minute, two minute drills. Well, you know what? You know what I guess?

Because here's the thing. I don't want to get caught in the minutia of like, oh, 47 passes. I think that this is like big picture. Our tier one with Jonathan Taylor and Christian McCaffrey is, you should probably take one of these people with the first pick in the draft. How would you define this second tier? Because I think of it as these are the guys who it would not at all be surprising if they ended up the number one running back. Like if I told you one of these guys were the number one running back in fantasy, if every single running back was healthy, one of these guys is number one.

Najee led the league in touches last year would not surprise me. Austin Echler obviously charges not surprising. Derek Henry wouldn't be surprising. Dalvin Cook. on a new Rams offense. And I guess I'm like, do you think Joe Mixen has better odds to be the number one running back to me than like Sequin, Camara, Swift, Fornette? That's my question.

But my argument is, is he literally almost did already. He was fourth last year. He was really third of the guys who played the whole season because Derek Kennedy got hurt. Like he was third. He almost did it.

To me, you should add Alvin Camara and Seacuan Barclay. Because Sequin Barclay, last year, his ADP was 10th overall. Sequin Barclay was a first rounder last year in drafts. What's changed? He rolled his ankle.

and now he's back, he's got a better coaching staff and a better offensive line. What has changed? Why is Sequin Barclay not in the back in the crew where he was last year? Same with Alvin Camara.

Alvin Camara with James Winston last year was the RB3 in points per game. Camaro was down because people were concerned about his like possibly being suspended. I'm pretty confident this point. Camara will, if he gets suspended, he will be suspended in 2023.

So if we move Camer and Seacuan up, now we have this weird thing of like, DeAndre Swift and Fortnet are like in a different thing. But it's in Fernette, also a potentially a three down back. And this is where it gets murky. I guess I look at this as like,

honestly, you can almost convince this one giant tier. No. Oh, no, that's like the worst thing. I don't think Sequin and Mixin can be in different tiers. To me, if you push Sequin and Camara up into tier two, then with this remaining tier, you have Swift, Fournet, Aaron Jones, James, Conner, Javante Williams, and Nick Chubb.

To me, it's like, these are either strictly like two down guys, or there are three down guys who are not elite talents, which are like you're James Connors, your Leonard Fournettes. And then you have the elite guys, elite talents like Nick Chubb and Jvante Williams and DeAndre Swift, but they're not getting three-down rolls. That is Tier three to me. Tier two, guys like Sequin Barclay and Joe Mixon and Dalvin Cook and all these guys, they're all elite talents, whether they're getting two, two-and-a-half or three-down rolls.

That's why I think Mixin works with Camara and Seekwon and Austin Echler, who's not a three-down guy. The only thing I would say is that, like, I have much more confidence in the Bengals having a good offense than the Giants. I don't know if that's enough to separate these tiers, but I don't know, Craig, you kind of talked to me into Mixon being in tier two, but I'm not 100% sold on moving Camara and Parkley up. Here's the big picture, big picture, though, in terms of running backs this year. We've complained a lot about the running back position recently. There's a, like the top 15 is really strong.

Yeah. And like big picture, whatever, we can argue over like where this tier ends, but, but my big picture thought is that I want, if you can, two of these top two of the running backs in these top three tiers or really two of the top 15 running backs would be awesome this year.

Like if you can get two of Jonathan Taylor McCaffrey, Najee, Echler, Henry, Cook, Mixin, Camara, Barclay, Swift, Fornette, Aaron Jones, James Connor. Honestly, to me, the tier break, I don't really want Chavante Williams

in this tier, in this tier, in the next tier of tier three. Like, if I don't know, like, if we're not going to move Sequin and Camara up, I don't think Javante at all should be in the same tier. I just visited Broncos camp. And honestly, Melvin Gordon looked great. Like, no one wants to hear that shit. He's 29 years old. He's been around for everyone's board.

I feel like that's a 50-50 split. And then, you know, like, obvious season goes on. Giovante gets better in the offense. But like, I just, Javante, I think there's a lot of wish casting. But I feel like he should be moved down, if anything. Let me ask you this. So tier one is essentially, we're cool with you taking him first overall. that's Taylor and McAfree. I think tier two is we're cool with you taking number five overall because after you got Taylor and McCaffrey, it's basically Jefferson Cup and maybe Jamar Chase

or whoever, maybe one other running back. With the fifth pick, I can definitely get behind Harris. I can definitely get behind Echler, Henry, Cook, and I guess Mixon. Craig, are you going to take Mixen fifth overall? It's the seventh because we're saying Justin Jefferson and Cooper Cup.

So we're basically saying, what do you do if you have like the seventh pick, basically? Yeah. Are you going to say Camara mid first round? If he's playing this whole season, I don't see why not. Really? He was kind of slowing down last year, and that's my one concern with him is it's like, no one's, I don't know if he was. He was used completely differently.

I mean, you certainly can. I just, I would not probably take Camara seventh, but also you totally can. I mean, listen, with Camer, they were, they were feeding the hell out of him on the ground, but his passing game work wasn't too diminished either. He was catching like over four passes a game, which if you extrapolate that, that's around 71 catches for the season. That's not what he normally does, which is like low 80s, but 70s isn't bad. But the normal, but the normal's with Drew Brees, who's the checkdown king. James Winston's never going to be checked down king. I don't think Camer was ever getting to 80 catches ever again

in his career. Well, I'm just saying he was on, he was on pace for 70 with James in seven games. So it's not the exact same, but he was also getting 20 carries a game. And this offense is going to look a lot different. Michael Thomas, Jarvis Langer and Chris Olawe, we're not on the Saints last year. He's going to maybe have more room to run this year. No, but the personnel, like, part of the reason Camer was catching it that much with James is, is because they didn't really have the people around James. Thomas got hurt, but now with those guys,

I think of anything, that's kind of more of an argument for James to be pushing the ball. The point is, yes, you could take Camara seventh. You could take Sequan seventh. Would you take DeAndre Swift's seventh, DK? Would you take, or eight?

No. Let's say eighth pick. I don't think so. I don't think so. I think that's a tear break. So we're moving Seekuan and Camara up. Nice. I did.

Greg gets his way. I think you could build an argument for any of those guys to be a mid-first. rounder put it that way um with swift i think dan you're it's stretching it a bit more because you got to like project him he was not a very good runner last year you're gonna perhaps project him to have like 80 catches which maybe that will happen i don't know but i think there's a reason he is kind of where he is we have him as the rb 10 because there's more question marks around him um he wasn't as explosive and good

on the ground as you'd hope i think and i think there's just more question marks about the offense in general so okay i like where we came here so just to so mcalfrey is Tier 1, Taylor and McAfrey, who we would take first of roll, and then guys that we would take really with like the eighth pick. And we're like, yeah, like top eight, Najee Harris, Austin, Eckler, Derek Kennedy, Dalvin Cook, Joe Mixen, Kamara, and Seekwon. I think that makes a lot of sense.

Those guys are all in the running. What about Fortnite? Well, no, I think tier three. So tier three now is guys that I would call guys you would take at a minimum by the end of the second round. Like if these, like guys that I guess, if you could take them with the first pick of the third round, you'd be like, wow, I'm happy this guy fell to me.

It's like guys you would still be happy with if they were your number one running back on your fantasy team. Right, right, right. Yes. If you got, these guys were the number one, if you went like Justin Jefferson and then you got like C.D. Lamb, or Justin Jefferson and Travis Kelsey, I don't know, whatever, Justin Jefferson and Mark Andrews.

And you got, as Craig just said, and this is your first running back with the third round pick, you'd be like really happy. So D'Andre Swift, Leonard Fournette, Aaron Jones, James Connor. We have Javante Williams and we have Nick Chubb. Yeah, how do you feel about

Nick Chub here? I think Nick Chub should be above Javante. Like, I think that what's weird about the Chubb situation, it's really hard to project because we don't know how much Sean Watson's going to play. I think Watson's probably going to be out for a lot and we've kind of projected him to do,

this is what Chubb would be like for a lot. It's strange to think about the Brown's offense with Chubb and just like, you know, the Jacoby-Perset world. But I'm really, I think Javante is the weak link here. I think Swift, Fournette, Aaron Jones, Connor, and Chub are like rock solid for me. Well, Javante, you have to do the most projecting.

Okay, so, hi, Fitz, get into it, because you were just at, you were just at Broncos camp. Why you, why you spooked on Javante? I'm spooked on Javante because, forget me being at Broncos camp. One, a couple things that are like the ingredients for wishcasting. Cool name. Really cool running style, young.

Runs over people. Yeah. Runs over people. Gets the Kyle Brandt, angry run segments. And then also is behind a veteran that everyone's just absolutely, sick of. So again, that is also the ingredients for a player to break out, but also sometimes people just want it to happen and ignore reality. So when I went there, honestly, Melvin Gordon looks good. Like Melvin Gordon, like the play after Tim Patrick got hurt.

Melvin Gordon was the guy who lined up out wide. Melvin Gordon is the guy making really cool one-handed catches. Like, again, Russell wills, this offense is about tempo. Like the Broncos are going to be playing fast. I think they're going to run a lot of plays. I think it's a lot. This is a mix of what Rusted in Seattle with Nate Hackett's stuff that he's done in Green Day in Jacksonville and everywhere he's been. But like it's a, this is the Rush show. And I think having a veteran running back, at least for the first half of the season, is going to be really important. Like Melvin Gordon, having the experience, I think it's really boring to say it freaking matters a lot. And also, I just, I don't, I don't see why Nate Hackett, there's nothing, an iota of evidence

to suggest one of these running backs will get like significantly more. And I don't know. more play under Nate Hack. Nate Hackett, I mean, I just don't see why after coming out of like the Aaron Jones, AJ Dillon's split in Green Bay, why this would be functionally that much different. And so I don't really think Javante totally belongs here because, you know, Aaron Jones and Green Bay without Devante Adams, James, James Connor without Chase Edmonds in Arizona, Fernette with the bucks, like, you know, the weight stuff, I don't care. Again, no disrespect to Javante, but I think that this is still solid.

I'm trying to decide, like, yeah, I kind of get what you're saying, but Nick Chub is splitting reps with Cream Hunt. Aaron Jones is splitting reps with A.J. Dillon, like, Dandre Swift splitting reps with Jamal Williams. Like, all these guys are splitting reps, except for Farnett. Like, if anything, you could make the argument, Fernette should be in the higher tier here. And these other guys all kind of fit as, like, a split backfield group. Yeah, but the difference is this isn't a target worth, like three times what a carry is, and Aaron Jones. Aaron Jones, and they can Javarthe not catch? I think Melvin Gordon, maybe Melvin's better, but I kind of, I kind of do. Aaron Jones in like, he's played like roughly a half season without Devante and he averages like 23 points a game without Devante. He'd basically be like a top through running back without Devon. He could be like Austin Echler light. Yes.

Or not, or Austin, just an equal of Austin Echler this year. Yeah. So Javonte Williams had 43 catches last year. And I think Gordon had much less. Melvin Gordon had 28. Yeah. So you tell me, D.K., you've watched Russell Wilson. Like in that stretch, I mean, it, it, it. It's, If we were to say that that stretch with Russell Wilson just had in 2020, that like nine weeks of pure bliss, how much checking down on running backs was there? Well, they did make it a factor or they made it a focus point for them to like,

and I remember Chris Carson was like a big part of like the passing game. Russell Wilson's terrible at throwing screen passes for whatever reason. But like he did do dump offs. And I'm going to look it up actually right now because I just know Carson was a factor in the passing game for a while. Like he caught some passes. I don't think you're ever going to be talking about like 50 plus passes for either of these guys. But like maybe in the 30s or 40s again, and I think that wouldn't be really that weird. And again, Javante Williams had 43 catches last year.

Belvin Gordon had 28. They had the exact same amount of carries. Yeah. So I don't know. I guess my concern is if you're talking about like Javante with the first pick of the third round, I guess I'm like, how much room is there for him to grow? Like, you know, how much upside is there? Are you shaking him in the ceiling?

I'm not, we don't have to move him down. We can keep them in this tier. I think he makes sense here. Okay. I don't know. I think I do too. Also, like, you know, the offense was so much worse last year. I think the upgrade of the offense kind of makes up for the fact that he's limited by Melvin Gordon again.

I imagine he only ran for four touchdowns last year. Like, I expect back to go up. I think he's on the lower end of this tier. But, like, I don't think he belongs with David Montgomery, which is the next tier. So Chris Carson had in 2019, he had 37 catches. In 2020, he had 37 catches. Yeah. So I think that's like, I mean, again, the Seahawks were running.

slow though and there were parts there where they were up tempo and you know really high explosive and really good passing offense but I don't know I think 30 to 40 like 30 to 50 would be like the max I would think for any of these guys it's not like it's going to be a 70

catch season for either of them okay so we'll stick with so tier three is going to be DeAndre Swift, Furnat Aaron Jones, James Connor Javante Williams and Nick Job okay football is right around the corner and Fiddle Sportsbook is here to help you make every moment more because right now new customers can get a no sweat

first bet up to $1,000 just start up using the promo code Ringer Fantasy, place your first bet and Fandu will give you up to $1,000 back in free bets if you don't win. Do we have any over unders? I'm like Javante Williams catches. I have Javante Williams rushing yards.

What is it? 925. He ran for 908 last year. Give me the under. DK. He ran for 903 last year, sorry. I mean, look, High Fitz already said the under, so I got to go the over here. I'm probably going to lose this one because unders hit just a staggeringly high rate compared to overs, but screw it.

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I can see you just like, there's a pucker factor there at the end. You didn't want to trip over anything. It's so funny. he said, yeah, as soon as I get to the WWWW. Craig and I are both smiling. You know what I was thinking about like DeShon Jackson when he like threw the football like at the half yard line and I'm like, don't, don't

freak, don't miss out. Yeah, don't drop the ball right. Don't go spike in the football at the one yard line. Anyway, okay. All right, so where are we here? Tier four. Tier four. All right. So these tier four, these running backs

are cammakers for the Rams, Ezekiel Elliot for the Cowboys, Travis Etyn for the Jaguars, Breeze Hall for the Jets, David Montgomery for the Bears, and Clyde Edwards, Allaire for the Chiefs. I think immediately we should probably bump Clyde down to the bottom. So we just do that right now. Do it. Not only that. You guys, why isn't Ezekiel Elliott in two three?

I know. We got a bump Zika up, man. It's, it's, you know what? I agree. You know why, Zeke is the weight of history versus just common sense. Zeke is so many carries. it's just like the kind of running back I don't want to invest in

and as we just said the previous tier was guys that if you could get them with the first pick in the third round like you'd probably happy yeah realist but however if we kind of stick more to like what I like what Craig said

where the previous tier it's like if this guy's still your top running back you're good Zick does feel like the last one right like Zick is the last running back where you're like you know what I'm probably good if I have him yes

you're probably buying into like, you know, if you're going to buy into any running back that's like, oh, you get out a year early than a year too late, it's probably Zika is probably like, you know, you're a little worried about that. But man,

this is also like, you don't want to become prisoner of the moment, but like this week, Darrell Henderson was running with the ones for the Rams at training camp. There's talk of like having two starting running backs. That's not really what McVeigh has done. But it does, like in the past in terms of like how he uses.

Right, with cammakers. Like typically McVeigh over the last, few years, and especially going back with Todd Gurley, he likes to use one running back. He just leans on one guy. I saw a stat about that. There were 14 Rams games last year where the lead running back got at least 16

touches. Yeah. This is like Steelers light. You know, like they just want to have one guy out there and have him do everything. But that being said, like, Dary Henderson was running with the ones. We still have a little bit of concern about Acres overall just because of the way he performed at the end of last season

just wasn't good, even though he did come back. You're saying Zeke should not be in the same category as Camacres. Yeah, the short of the long of it is I want Zeke to move up over Acres. And I think he should be in this tier above him. You know what's nice about Dallas? I'm happy to do that. Zeke just turned 27. He's not that old.

He obviously has a lot of carries. But Dallas is stubborn in like the most fantasy friendly way possible in regards to Zeke. Like, they're just going to, like, Jerry Jones is such a stubborn old bull. And he's like, we're going to keep using Zeke. he needs to be the focal point of the offense. Like, when they're inside the five, you know who's going to get the ball? Zeke. Zeke was tied for sixth and rushes inside the five-yard line last year with 12.

Tony Pollard had two. Like, they're still using him in all of the best ways. And no one wants to draft Zeke, but I will. You know what? Jerry Jones. You could, like, get him as your RB1 and you'd be feel fine about it. Yeah. Jerry Jones is a fantasy football player.

Like, that's the thing. Like, he actually just bought the Dallas Cowboys to play fantasy football. Like his first press conference at like 1980, whatever year he bought the Cowboys. He said, I'm going to be involved in everything from jocks to socks. And like, he has. And the irony is Jerry Jones is always out here saying like, I will do anything known to mankind to win a Super Bowl, which is actually something he said. The irony is he'll do anything except like do less. Except for play is good players.

Except for play the good play. Yeah. But no, I think so moving Zika is up as easy. So we got Cammakers in Tier 4, Travis E.N, Breece Hall, David Montgomery. I'm going to move Clyde down. So there's a tiny little tier here. It looks, but it feels appropriate, doesn't it? So it's Cam Makers, ETN, Breeze Hall, and Montgomery.

I think, yeah, I think this actually makes sense because the next tier, there's just so many question marks about these other guys. I think maybe we title this like the could be RB1s and it wouldn't be that surprising tier or something like that. Like, Bresol's probably going to get the volume. David Montgomery probably going to get the volume. Aker's probably going to get the volume. Part of me thinks we dissolved tier four.

No, no, no, no. But also, we have these guys ranked between 30 and 45 and the next guys all go after the 60s. I think that's a tier. I think Cam Acres, E.T.N. Breeshall, David Montgomery. If the previous tier was like the last guys, you're comfortable as your top running back, these guys are like, you're kind of comfortable with them as your

second running back. This is like high-end RB-2s. Yeah, you're like, oh, Travis E. E. Yeah. cool. But the only guy who I don't feel that way about now is David Montgomery. Like, are any of you guys taking David Montgomery

over Breece Hall, ETN, or Camacres in any world? No. The Bears are going to suck. Montgomery's like playing with the special teams right now in training camp. They were like using him in special teams. God, the fucking Bears, man. I can't do the Bears anymore. They didn't draft Montgomery.

They didn't use him. Killil Herbert's been running with the first team a lot. Yeah, but I'm taking Montgomery easily over guys like Clyde and, you know, Elijah Mitchell, Penny. J.K. Dobbins? Are you taking him easily over J.K. Dobbins? Jackie Dobbins is not going to play in week one. I don't know. Like, yeah. And Dobbins is going to have like three catches.

I don't know. All I'm saying is if somebody was like gunned to your head, do you want A.J. Dillon or David Montgomery? Or they're like, gun to your head. Do you want Miles Sanders or David Montgomery? I don't know. Personally, I, the bears are going to be horrific. And I know we talked about him on the all boring team. But things have kind of changed in the way they're talking about using him in Chicago. So I would never touch. I wouldn't sniff Dave Montgomery over Travis E. Tender Cammakers. But that's kind of what this tier is. It's the running backs that you're

passing over for receivers anyway. Like, you know what, these guys, we always do an episode every August that's like, players we hate but have to rank. And I would just basically describe this tier. I mean, I actually love camakers and I'm upset that they're talking about like two starting running backs, but like David Montgomery is really up there

with like also like players that we hate but have to rank. He's like kind of merged with the all boring team. I agree with you, Craig. Like, but overall, I think I'm the last person in the world who thinks David Montgomery is good. I do think he's good. I don't, yeah, Craig's poisoning me. I guess the way I put it is like, I think this tier is totally fair.

Camakers, Travis E.T.N. Breeshold David Montgomery. If you get them as your second running back, you're like, cool. But isn't it part of the, isn't it part of the ethos and the spirit of a tier that each individual player could kind of be shuffled around and that you could potentially take one over the other at any given time and be comfortable with it? You could totally take Montgomery over Travis E.N. Because Travis E.N. might not be the fucking starter. James Robinson might just start.

And then Breeze Hall with the Jets, he's a goddamn rookie, and the Jets still might suck. The other part about a tier, though, Craig, is there's a big, to me, in my mind, why I actually support this is, and you're obviously saying different and I get that. But like, there's a big drop off after Montgomery to Clyde and Dobbins and Mitchell and Dylan and Penny and Gibson. That in my mind at least, excuse me, I would just way rather have Montgomery

because I believe that he's going to get way more volume and I actually think he's good. Yeah, okay. We can keep him. I don't feel strongly about it. We might as well just go through the next tier here. So tier five, which is, again, this is like the 60s. And again, this is like, these two tiers like are where you could call it the running back dead zone. These are probably your last startable running backs on your team.

But in reality, someone called it the receiver power alley, which from like the 30th pick roughly to like the 80th pick. I like that a lot. It's probably a better way to put it because the point is you just rather take receivers. You want to be loading up on receivers in that area. It's an ugly group. Acres, E.TN, Breez Hall, David Montgomery at the top of that group, and then, like, tier five is toward the bottom, but it's like Clyde Edwards, O'Lear for the Chiefs, Jakey Dobbins for the Ravens, who again, as Dicay said, you know, probably not playing at week one.

Elijah Mitchell for the 49ers, A.J. Dillon for the Packers, for Shott Penny for the Seaharks, Antonio Gibson for Washington, Miles Sanders for the Eagles, Josh Jacobs for the Raiders, Cream Hunt for the Browns. This is a weird group. You know why? It's a bunch of starting running backs who we kind of don't believe in. And then, like, number two running backs that we believe in a lot. Yeah. So like AJ Dylan, I mean, I actually, you could convince me he should be at the head of this whole pack because he's actually trending up. Right. Yeah, I got no problem with that.

And then I, there are people in this tier. This is the epitome. This whole tier, honestly, to me is guys, I don't want to, like, I don't want to, like, I have to rank, but I don't like any of them. Elijah Mitchell is the epitome for this. Like, Elijah Mitchell had, what, like five different injuries last year as a rookie. They're bringing all these running backs. And he's like, man, I just don't think Elijah Mitchell will. hold on to this job when November comes around.

Or you don't trust that it'll stay healthy because he had like six injuries last year. Yes, that's kind of what I'm saying. I just don't think he's really built. This is like the, to me, this is the feel bad that there are your RB2. Like you hope something goes right here because you're not really counting on it. You don't feel confident about it. Like Clyde, I have like less than, I have no confidence in Clyde right now. These are all guys that used to be sexy picks and then it didn't work out, but we still

have to rank them. Like everybody used to be into Josh Jacobs, Miles Sanders, Antonio Gibson. I mean, Rashad Penny. you could say, Clyde Edwards hilarious. These are all guys who have flamed out, but we still have to rank them. I actually would, I would even put Josh Jacobs lower.

You cannot make me take Josh Jacobs this year. I don't think there's a spot he could be out there where I'll be like, ah, all right, fine. I know that's probably not like, everybody gets one. Everybody gets one player where you're like, you know what?

I don't care about value. I just don't want him. And like, for me, that's Josh Jacobs this year. The blind spot player. Yeah. The blind spot where I'm like, I don't care what the price is.

You know, I'm a firm. believer that you fantasy of a locker room. You know what I got to like, you know, I don't want Josh Jacobs in my fantasy locker room. That's the hardest part about auction drafting is when usually everybody has like hive mind about those guys. Like I think no one's into Josh Jacobs this year.

But then somebody will nominate him in an auction draft. And his price will be settling at like $16. And you're like, all right, come on. We can't let somebody just get Josh Jacobs or $60. But you're also like, but I'm not going to be the guy to up. Yeah, that's the worst. I'm not going to freaking pay $17. $16.

And then he, like, has eight touchdowns and run for 900 yards. And he's an absolute value. No, no, no. Here's Matthew Barry, who it's so bizarre to say at NBC Sports now, which is Roto World. He did his, Roto World. It's back. It's back.

Okay. They're branding, at least his show, Roto World. It's pretty sweet. So Matthew Berry is, did his 100 Fax column and one of them was, a couple of them blew me away. But he's basically, Josh Jacobs has always gotten 260 carries. 260, not 260. 216 carries every season of his career

still unbelievably mediocre. Josh McDaniels has not had a running back at 260 carries in five years. So basically Josh Jacobs, who is extremely inefficient is now probably going to get the smallest workload of his year. The Raiders brought on these other running backs.

And also, like, they didn't draft him. John Gruden traded away Colo Mac and used one of those picks on Josh Jacobs. Like, Josh McDaniels is not beholden the moon in any way. It's one of those, like, I just think Jacobs is going to get, phased out of this offense kind of slowly. Yeah. Who else?

So like the guy that I'm looking at in this tier that I just don't know what to think about is Antonio Gibson. Because there's a world where I feel like of the players, like basically of any player that we've ranked, I feel like he has the most ability or potential for me to just feel like, wow, I totally miss that in either direction. Like he could end up being an RB1 and it won't that, it won't surprise me all that much because he's that talented and he's that fast. and he's got the size and speed combo that you really want.

But also, like, it wouldn't surprise me whatsoever either if he just ends up being, like, the third most useful fantasy running back on that team, you know? I don't think the coaching staff is enamored with Antonio Gibson, and I think that he's fighting at two front war. Jady McKiss is back to take the passing work from him, but then they drafted the rookie Brian Robinson, and Brian Robinson might get short yardage.

Now you're talking about Gibson, and, like, I've had Gibson. I have Gibson. I have Gibson in, like, you know, one of my favorite dynasty leagues, and like, he had a great game on Thanksgiving, but the reality is, if he's not getting catches and he's not getting goal line work,

how are you taking him for a while? Washington's going to suck and you're going to have to root for Washington's offense with Carson Wentz. You're going to feel like an idiot. I still can't believe Carson Wentz is still a starter in the NFL. Yeah, I don't,

I have no opinion on Antonio Gibson. I don't have an opinion on any of these guys, and I think that's perhaps what the tier is. Can we call that this tier? The guy's give no firm opinions on any of these people. I don't think about you at all. I don't think about you at all. All right, tier six.

Chase Edmonds for Miami, Devin Singletary for the Bills, Cordill-Patterson for the Falcons, Tony Pollard for the Cowboys, Damien Harris for the Patriots, back to back with Ramonjo Stevenson for the Patriots, Melvin Gordon for the Broncos, Ken Walker for the Seahawks.

This is a tough tier too because I feel like I want to move three of these guys up. I was going to say, I would take Melvin Gordon. This is the, I like this tier more than the higher tier tier. I almost feel like, we got to move Josh Jacobs and down and we got to move like I would move some of these guys up.

This is, I mean. This tier is just to me objectively better value players than the tier five, the players in tier five. Can we be clear about something? Because I think that we probably should do a better job of this. We're not saying when we say, well, I can't, I would just cannot take Josh Jacobs with the 60th pick. Like, please don't.

I'm not saying like instead take Melvin Gordon with the 60th pick. What I'm saying is, if you can wait till the 100th pick and get Melvin Gordon, I actually think he'll be outright better than Josh Jacobs this year. However, don't take him where Josh Jacobs is going. It defeats the entire purpose. Yeah. Extract value. Who stands out in this group?

I think Damien Harris. I like this to here, actually. Yeah. Harris being next to Ramondry. Is Damien Harris way too low? No, because Damian Harris, basically had his best because he's not going to catch passes. Damien Harris had 15 touchdowns last year, whatever it was. Right. Basically his best possible outcome in what was he like,

like, you know, 19th. So there's not really a world where he can get better, right? He's not going to improve. I don't think so. They just feed him in the red zone. Especially with Romandre coming on. He was fifth in red zone rushes last year in the league. Didn't he, didn't he convert like all of his rushes from inside the five or something ridiculous? I think I saw that. It was like his rate of converting his carries inside the five was really, really high. He had four. He had four. 14 rushes inside the five, nine of them were touchdowns. Yeah, and that's like that's something that is variable every year. And, you know, it's like tough to rely on that.

So he has regression kind of written all over him in touchdowns. This is also the last group. I think this is important to say. This group is basically composed of running back like starters, quote unquote, we don't know what to do with with really high upside twos. But it's also the last group where we have any semblance of predictable playing time. Like Chase Edmonds could be great for the dolphins, but we don't know what that offense is going to be like,

whatever, you know, I think it'll be run first. We'll see. Devin Singletary was like a top five running back to end the season for Buffalo. If anything, I think he's also probably a huge value in this year of Melvin Gordon. And then like the flip side is Tony Pollard, who, again, people are hoping overtake Zeke, Ken Walker for the Seahawks, people overtaking Rashad Penny. But after this, guessing the playing time for these guys is absolute like dart throwing. Like you need to kind of have, you probably want your last guy you're lying on for playing time to come from this group because afterwards you're going to kind of need to get lucky.

DK., can we briefly talk about Ken Walker? Yeah. What do you think? I mean, Rashad Penny has pretty much never played more than seven games in a row in his career. God damn it. Hey, I love him. I think he's great. But if he gets hurt, God forbid, how good is Kenneth Walker going to be?

Like, will he just take over and be the three down back? That's the, well, that is the question, right? because I don't know right now, and I've seen from the beat reports out of Seattle are that neither Ken Walker nor Rashad Penny are going to be three down backs because it sounds like the Seahawks like DJ Dallas and or Travis Homer as like the quote unquote third down back. We'll see if that actually happens in games when things matter. I don't know if I really believe that. I think that they're going to want to get the most talented guys out there and that's Kenny Walker and Rashad Penny. But there were periods last year where both DJ Dallas and. and Travis Homer were getting pretty decent snaps in those situations. So it's tough. I don't think, I think that Ken Walker is a great value pick at this spot because I think he's a very good, elusive, explosive runner.

And the chances of Rashad Penny going down seem like pretty decent. And he could end up having like a really strong role. I really like- If Rashad Penny stays healthy. Well, then that's kind of why you're taking him here. That's why he's a little bit lower than, you know, Well, at least for us, we have him ranked quite a bit lower than Penny. There's some places that have Kenny Walker ranked higher than Penny.

I think Rashad Penny. I think Rashad Penny is the epitome of like a guy that everyone had like big expectations from and is sick of now and kind of wants to reject reality a little bit. Right. I understand it's like, oh, we might get hurt. Okay, a lot of these guys might get freaking hurt. And like, I understand Rashad Penny has a long history of injuries. The first real argument we've ever had this podcast was about Rashad Penny.

And I was out and you guys were in. And I cannot believe this is flipped. But I actually think it's representative that you. You guys believed and feel burned. And, like, now I'm kind of swooping in. And I'm just like, this doesn't make sense. Rashad Penny to finish the season at like 300 more, not three, like 250 more rushing yards than anyone else.

I'm not saying that'll happen again. However, he's going outside the top 60. Like, like, just for a moment, if we live in the world where he doesn't get hurt, everyone's assuming, well, the Seahawks took Ken Walker. So he's got to be the guy. And I'm like, I don't think anyone's thinking about this from the Seawks perspective. From the Seahawks front office perspective, you had Chris Carson, and you had Rashad Penny.

Chris Carson had this neck injury, and they kind of knew his career was probably over. It only happened, like he only retired a couple weeks ago, but the Seahawks have kind of known all year, Chris Carson's career is probably over. Then Rashad Penny is going to be a free agent

at the end of last season. So they're like, now we just have DJ Dallas who was what, a seventh round pick? And Travis Homer's their own runner backs. A fourth, okay, sorry, fourth round pick, but he's a special team's player. Regardless, yeah, yeah. And so they're like, wow, we're screwed.

Chris Carson's gone, and Rashad Penny's going to be free agent. So they resigned Rashad Penny to be a one-year deal, and then they draft Ken Walker. And I don't understand why the most logical thing seems we're retaining Rashad Penny to get the continuity in the offense and he will be the guy for this year. And we're drafting Ken Walker so he can be the starter, hopefully, for the next three years of his rookie contract after this season. And I don't understand why Ken Walker eventually overtaking Rashad Penny is just assumed to be happening this season instead of next year. why has you shot Benny not the starting running back for the Seattle Seahawks?

I mean, I think you said it. This is sort of rhetorical, right? Like, it's because people are afraid he's going to get hurt or people expect that he'll get hurt. Also, you know, with the early... I'm just saying he's next to Jake Dobbins, who's actually hurt? Look, right now, he's recovered.

I know, but like the different... I think we all agree that we like... I mean, like, we're not saying we don't like Penny this year. It's just that yes, he does get hurt a lot. Also, Russell's not there. This offense is going to be way worse. Right. I mean...

That's the other thing. Yeah. I don't know. I guess he could like get 250 carries and light everything up. But I think he's just like a middling RB2. The reason people I think are afraid. So like we have Penny ranked, I think quite a bit higher than consensus or whatever. And I think a lot.

We are a lot higher in consensus. We believe in what we saw down the stretch last year. Of course, there's a lot of variables to that. But the Seahawks are going to turn around the hell of hell. He's very good. Yeah, yeah. And like he's one of the most explosive running backs in the NFL. He's like,

essentially an extreme discount version of like chub because he's he's going to be on a team that wants to run the ball a lot he's maybe not going to catch a ton of passes but he's an explosive runner and he showed that he showed basically um why the seahawks wanted to take him in the first round you know back back when so i don't know he i feel like he proved the talent thing and he proved the explosiveness he's always been an explosive player he used to be like a really good kick and punt returner or kick returner at least um and he has that you know big play potential that the Seahawks really want. I think they're really going to lean on that because look at what the

quarterbacks are. The thing I keep coming back to and the reason I rank penny higher than I think the consensus is that they want to make his explosive play potential like a foundation of their offense and he has that talent. If they're going to run the ball a lot,

if they're going to run the offense that Pete Carroll wants to run, which by the way, they're going to run the offense that Pete Carroll wants to run. You need to get explosive plays on the ground. like period or else you're just going to get stuck in the mud every game and so that's why i think penny's going to get a lot of volume i think that's why he's a perfect fit for what they want to do um i think Kenny walker honestly is like very similar style like explosive play creator really elusive

see the whole get through it and get downfield kind of deal um but i think penny right now has got the inside track to be like the starter and get the at least like maybe 60 40 of the of the touches um and so hopefully they'll be explosive enough on the ground to like make those touches worthwhile because i think the fear is mainly they're just not going to get they're not going to be high value touches not touch down to be clear i'm not saying penny should go 50th i'm saying that sometimes he's available like 95th or 100th and ken walker goes ahead of him and in that case i'm like what am i what world do i live in okay next tier here we're in like high end handcuffed territory slash like ambiguous backfields right

damian peers for the texans michael carter for the jets james cook for the bills tyler for the Falcons, Isaiah Spiller for the Chargers, Alex Madison for the Vikings, Darrell Henderson for the Rams, Rashad White for the Bucks. So, to be clear, the Vikings, so actually, Madison, I think we would have probably a little bit higher, but the

Viking, Dalvin Cook actually kind of hurt his finger this week, and then Alex Madison, or Dalvin Cook heard his hand, and then Madison heard his finger, and then Arsmith, the tight end also his finger. I don't know what's up with the Vikings and hand injuries, but otherwise, that's really strange. This is just like a bunch of upside guys, upside pass catching guys who could, if they took over it back,

field. Do we go? Maybe a top 10 running back each week if they actually got to start a roll. Any objections here? I think the only one I kind of look at here and I'm like, I don't know whether he belongs or not as Spiller because we don't really know for sure if he's even going to be the RB2. I think that's the assumption right now. Do you know, you have Isaiah Spiller the highest of all of us. So you're the reason. No, I know. And I'm that's, I think I'm essentially what I'm saying is I'm gambling on that's what's going to happen. But I think that to me is is the question mark of this group.

Otherwise, it looks like pretty solid. Like you said, not handcuffed, but like higher end. Like this is like the RB3 group that could turn into a bunch of RB2s or higher. For me, I think Rashad White is the only guy that I'm like, I don't know if he should be here because I think every other player on this list,

Pierce, Carter, Cook, Tyler, Alger, Spiller, Madison. I guess maybe not Madison, Henderson. They're all going to play. Like, Henderson will play. Like, James Cook is going to get minutes. Michael Carter will be on the field. Rashad White. Rashad White might not see the field.

I'd like to add James Robinson and swap out Rashad White for James Robinson for the Jaguars. We're all like we're a little weirded out. We don't have to do James Robinson. We thought he'd like have a much slower recovery with his Achilles. And now he's like back in two weeks might just be taking care. Why isn't Jamal Williams actually on this list? I'd be happy to put Jamal Williams. I love Jamal Williams.

Jamal Williams is the perfect nexus. If Jamal Williams were like the best running back in football, I feel like he would be a global celebrity. Because I cannot remember a person who is more consistently entertaining when they're in front of a microphone. Jamal Williams. He's Harry Stiles if he starts. Jamal Williams is like, Jamal Williams in front of a microphone is the most joyous.

You remember when he was talking about frozen? Yeah. When he left the lies, like, they feed me good. He has a good personality. He'll be on hard docs this year. Oh, yeah. Well, that's next week. Yeah.

I can't wait. I am so confident Jamal Williams will be in the first episode of Hard Knocks. They're going to like be all in it. The lions are very likable. I like where the lions are going. Oh,

I love Jamal Williams. I think the main worry with guys like Robinson, Jamal Williams. We've got Ronald Jones in here who I'm less confident than that right now than I was. You're talking about this next tier, Tier 8.

Yeah. Well, let me guess, so this next tier we didn't go through it yet. The next tier is James Robinson for the Jags, Jada McKissick for Washington, Kenneth Gamewell for the Eagles. Ronald Jones for the Chiefs,

Jamal Williams for the Lions, my guy, Rahim Moster for the Dolphins, Khalil Herbert for the Bears, who Craig mentioned earlier, Deonté Foreman for the Panthers who we think will replace McCaffrey, if McAfra gets hurt, and then Zemir White for the Raiders

and Brian Robinson for Washington. That's the team. Like, Jamal Williams should not be on the same list as Brian Robinson. Jamal Williams starts. Really what we're talking about, but I would airlift certain people out of here.

Robinson, Kenneth Gainwell, Williams, and then maybe Rojo. Uh, yeah. Yeah. I don't know. Like, I'm kind of just feeling like this is all just one big tier. It is kind of one. Honestly, maybe it is.

Honestly, like, because you can make arguments for any of these guys to move them up and down. Like, if Damien Pierce ends up being the starter in Houston, he's maybe the odd man out here. Or maybe if James Cook ends up starting in front of devil and singletary, then we got to make things up. Even that, even that I'm not in on Damien Pierce because I'm like, what is it? Like, here's the thing. What's the upside? Spoiler alert. Damian Pierce not getting 90%

of Texan snaps no matter what he does or how many of the old dusted running backs But couldn't he just be Rashad Penny? Like what's the difference? No, because the Texans suck And basically what I'm saying is... So do the Seahawks. What are you talking about?

No, no, it's different. It's different. The Texans are like barely a football team. They're like a band of one... They're probably the better quarterback. They're like a band of one-year contract mercenaries. And like, I guess my question is how many times every season

there's somewhere between like two and three, maybe four teams where you're like, it actually does. doesn't matter who gets the starting job. Like, even the presumed quote unquote starter is like still just not good enough for you to want to confidently insert in your lineup. And I guess my question for you is, what is the best possible outcome for Damien Pierce this year?

Because I feel like literally if he hit the 100 of 100 outcome, that's like what, 20th among running backs? Mm-hmm. I was thinking like a low-end RB2 or something like that. Whereas what if these other guys hit the 100 of 100? So, like, I think that that, to me, actually, I think he's in this. I wouldn't be opposed to kind of merging these into one giant tier. Because it's really all you're just chasing upside and just kind of what's your flavor here.

It is what's your flavor. That's where we're at the draft. That's the thing is it's what's your flavor. Who do you like? Who do you think has the most talent? It's just a bunch of, like, handcuffs slash pass catching backs. Yeah. I think the problem with guys like Robinson and the problem with the guys like Williams, like,

yes, they're getting playing time. and yes, they may be nominal starters, but they're not getting the valuable touches, especially in half PPR and PPR. Well, Jamal Williams might. Jamal Williams could get some goal line stuff. I love Jamal Williams. Yeah.

All right, so the overall, the point is we're not, if we are going to say, though, if we were going to separate these guys that are like more upside and less side, James Cook for the bills, who I'm not convinced is going, like if it was just James Cook and Devin Singletary, maybe, but I think that's Zach Moss

and that'll be like a three-man back field, which would be tough, but he could. I love Tyler Algear for the Falcons. I think he's a ton of upside. And like that could just be him and Cordill-Role Patterson for the Falcons. Alex Madison is like the single best handcuff

in all football and Dalvin Cook again, already having an hand injury. We'll see if that actually becomes anything that happened. Like, it just happens. So we don't actually know the severity of it. But I think this is one big tier. And then I think we need to end it at Deonté Foreman. Yeah, like Zemir White and Brian Robinson.

I even think Rashad White on the box. Like this guy's not playing. unless somebody gets hurt. But, well, the reason people like him, Craig, is because he is a really good pass catcher in college. And if he can somehow earn the trust of Brady and or if Fournett gets hurt, he has incredible upside. But what you just said feels goddamn insurmountable.

If the rookie can earn the trust of Tom Brady over Leonard Fournett, who's caught. Okay. The guy was at Arizona State last year. If Thornet gets hurt, Rashad White has a path to, like, massive. Does he? What do they just, why wouldn't Joe Bernard do? do it.

Because he's old. He's too old. They drafted him in the third round. Wish casting. I agree. You agree with what? He should not be in the same category is Daryl Henderson. I'm sorry.

I agree with Craig. Rashad White's got him like that. I completely disagree. What? Yeah, I completely. We got out vote you, D.K. Sean McVeigh said this week he used. I'm going to bring this up when Rashad White is like freaking R.

I think that there's a friction between draft analysis. And like, again, it's like, if Fournet gets hurt. If FourNet gets hurt, then we hope Rashad White earns the past catching trust of Tom Brady versus Sean McVay said out loud this week. I see Darrell Henderson is the co-RB1 of this team. Yeah, but he hasn't done that. He's never done that. I don't love Darrell Henderson either, but.

Rashad White could run the wrong route and Brady could throw a pick and he's not playing another snap. I agree. Or he could just be awesome. Sure. Yeah. I'm going to talk to what is guy? This is where it's like draft brain from D. You guys act like no fucking rookie running backs ever score fantasy points.

No, for Tom, serious question. When was the last time Tom Brady had a rookie running back in any setting that he threw? Like, it's a serious question. That's why they keep bringing James White back every goddamn here. I feel like it was 2007. Is that the Patriots or is that Tom Brady? Is that Bill Belichick or Tom Brady? I mean, even, I mean, even with Tampa Bay, Kishon Vaughn didn't get very far with Tampa Bay.

Look, I told you from the very beginning. Kishan Vaughn isn't very good. I think Rashad White's good. There's a reason why the Bucks keep bringing in veterans rather than promoting these rookie receivers and players. I mean, that's why they're bringing in Julios and Antonio Browns and they sign Leonard Forenett. The reason Tyler Johnson with the Bucks is like this incredible draft

prospect and also probably going to get cut. All right, that's fine. If you guys want to move it down. How is this the most intense argument? We're talking about like the fucking 13th round. I know. It's a good sign for a ranking. great about Rashad White.

This is a good side for a reggae. I'm just, I'm going to say I told you so when Rashad White's getting meaningful stuff. Totally. You know what? I'll take it in stride. I will just say,

Hyfitz, I never thought Hishon Vaughn was good. You can go back and check the tape. I always thought he was a jag. I think Rashad White is good. That's all I'm going to say. I actually agree with you. I think Fortinette's probably

going to get the lion share, but I think Rashad White's good. All right. We're not saying he's not good. That's all. We never said that. We just like, there's two ifs to him playing.

Well, There's the context here. That's all. I think it's a good sign for our rankings that we didn't really yell at each other and no feelings were hurt to like, you know, the 130th pick. I think that's a good sign.

No, this is good. Right, the last year, just to go through it. So we're moving down. So Zemir White for the Raiders, Brian Robinson for the Washington. Hassan Haskins, who might get the job Derek Henry gets hurt in Tennessee. Gus Edwards for the Ravens,

who's like a backup to J.K. Dobbins, but also covering from an ACL. We didn't know where to put him. Terry Davis for the Niners, who D.K. loves, I think, a little too much. Neemines for the Colts. All right. Ravens honestly for the bit and then Mark Ingram for the Saints but honestly I would probably take

Mark Ingram out of this at this point because I don't think Camer is given this time. We're not. No one to be higher. I agree. You guys need to get on. Yeah. Get on the Neheme Heinz train. No, I agree.

I got them ranked like 50 spots ahead of you guys. I started the Nehme Heinz train. I would move them up. Also, is it bad that we have like 149 are ranked in the top 150? 149 are running back? No, because the rule is always take the cheapest one. I mean, Jeff Wilson, for all we know, could just lead the team in touchdowns. But when we get to October, we just have to we have two ranked and one is a rookie.

Like, should we rank anyone else? Shouldn't Trace Sermon be on anywhere on a list? Trace Sermon's getting hyped this week. Of course. This is such a fucking mess, man. When we get to like waivers week one and we're like, oh, Jeff Wilson. Can we should have a tier? We should have, can tier 10 just only be Niners running back?

That's actually really just Tray Sermin, Jeff Wilson. That's really funny. The reason they're not ranked. None of the 49ers are ranked. It's like, I don't want to rank them. I'll do it later. And then you just never do it. Like you procrastinate on ranking any 49ers because you don't want to have to think about it.

They're like the waiver. It's just like just, you're just going to wait to the waiver wire in week three. Fucking wasted pick. I am such a believer in Jeff Wilson. I think if Jeff Wilson were healthy, Kyle Shannon would play him all the time. I don't know, man. You're probably not wrong, honestly. I love Jeff Wilson.

I think it's the only thing Carl Shannon and I have in common is an irrational love for Jeff Wilson. Isn't Joe Michael Hastie also on that? this team? Yes. Toss him in the mix. You can convince anyone that has been on this team. Toss him into Tier 10. He got like

18 carries in a game last year, I think. All right. That's all, can we wrap up the tiers here? Yeah. Big picture thoughts in these tiers. How do you want to approach the obvious caveat you're trying to get value? Blah, blah, blah, blah. What are you trying to do with running back this year in your drafts? Tier two, baby. Screw tier one.

I want I want two of his top 15 guys. I kind of agree with Craig. I'm increasingly feeling like my dream draft is if I can get Justin Jefferson with like the fifth pick. And then like my next two picks I can get anywhere from like Naji in the second round. What if I can get two of? You can't get him in the second. Can you? Depending on what pick you have. You get like if you're in a 10 team league like you know most people. But if you can get two of Naji, Mixon, Camara, Barclay, Swift, Fornette, Aaron Jones, Connor. Yep. Totally possible. Chubb, Javant. Like if you can get two of those guys, Zique,

and Justin Jefferson, and then you come back and you just get like six straight picks of all receivers or a tied in a quarterback, and then you don't come back to running back for like, I love that so much. That's like my dream.

I totally agree. I think that the elite running back list is deeper than it's been in a while, and you can just wait to get a first round talent in the second round, and you can get a great receiver in the first. I totally agree, Hyfitz. I would tear it as like,

basically the way, again, to go back to the whole concept of the tears thing, I'm loosely aiming to get between one or two of our first three tiers. Yeah, I agree. And that's it. And then like I would probably value like seven receiver tiers. And then avoid tier five at all costs.

Yeah. And I'll come back in. I'll swoop back in around our tier six. Yeah. Exactly. All right. We got emails. But first,

do we want to talk about Aaron Rogers and the ayahuasca and the day? So basically, it's actually, first of all, it's like a two and a half hour. podcast that Rogers did. And among the things he said, he basically said he drank this. Did you listen to it? Did you listen to it? I started it because I thought it would be, you know, not two and a half hours.

And I couldn't believe it. So no, I did not get to finish it yet. But because this just, this just happened this week. But basically, I don't want, it's such a wide ranging conversation. But one of the thing he said that made news was basically that he drank ayahuasca tea two years ago. and then he immediately won the two MVPs. And what that is is it includes DMT.

And DMT is a wild drug. DMT is like perhaps the most powerful lucigenic. Like we're like like like a round. And it's called like the fraud drug. I have spoken. I know people who've done DMT and it's been described, not just by them, but like it's it almost like simulates death in a way.

Yeah. Like like all of your. all of the chemicals in your brain release at once? Yes. And like the way like people describe like the white light at death and like people find peace and death. It's like that's what DMT does to you. And so Aaron Rogers said is he found, uh, oh, I forget the term he is, but basically like

complete and utter self love. And one of the first things they talked about was like there's no self, I love myself because I just love myself and you leave it at that. So say what you want about him. He did this and then immediately won two MVP awards. So I think everyone should do. the key. It's a pro DMT podcast.

This man has found peace, it sounds like, in a safe atmosphere with professional supervision. Don't actually do DMT. It's insane. Well, you should be extremely careful. Unless you're curious. I feel like my take on the whole Aaron Rogers thing is like this guy is a college freshman.

Like, he's growing his hair out. He's reading Ann Rand. Fucking. And call her Anne Rand. And on. What do you call it? I think it's I'm in whatever.

But that is how a college freshman would say. Clearly I have not read it. So just for the record. But you're not a fountain head head. I don't know. He's like the guy, he's like pretty soon he's going to bring a guitar in and like start playing for everybody. Like he's he's like stereotypical college freshman.

Just like experimenting with mind altering drugs, growing his hair out. You know, counterculture. Yeah, he's like a hippie English lit lit major at like Berkeley now. He's born born in the wrong generation. He just should have been born like 40 years ago. I think Spencer Hall actually tweeted this and it like makes sense. He was so busy like studying his playbook and doing college football. And he basically skipped the whole college thing.

Aaron Rogers is now a college freshman in like spiritually. He's a college freshman of life. Yes, exactly. Yeah, it's like to do your own research, he's just like read a bunch of Howard Zinn and it's like, did you guys know that what you're told isn't always true? You're aware? DMT's crazy. Yeah, so don't do it.

That's all? Seriously, be really responsive. Oh, no, email too. I want to read an email. Well, first of all, Sven wrote in our last episode of Superbad, or sorry, in your last episode Superbad, you all brought up the insane video of Nick Chubb squatting 600 plus pounds. And I thought it could clear up some details for all of you. Thank you.

I have been a weightlift. I've been weightlifting for tennis years and coached football weightlifting for a year. So the weight that Chub is pushing is impressive. enough, but then he adds the variable. It's an earthquake bar. I heard this. My friend told me this, yes. I've also seen you called the tsunami bar.

So, Sven writes, having a bar that stays stable and straight makes for a much easier lift because have you ever tried lifting a bouncing weight? Basically. So it's actually harder than like a normal bar. I think it's harder, but easier on your joints, which it's amazing how anything could be easier into joints, but that's allegedly what it is. But basically, Sven says it's like doing the 600 pounds and then adding turbulence. Holy shit.

So not only his leg's solid, but he must have a core of steel. In conclusion, Nick Chubb could kill us with his pinky toe. Wow. So it's essentially like the fact that it's wobbling as you go up and down adds more, you know, stress on your muscles. Yeah. Yeah. Which seems intuitive when you say it out loud. It's like a shake weight, but for squatting.

Earthquake bar is such a cool name. Yeah. Nick Chubb on the earthquake bar. All right. And then most importantly, Craig, on our last episode, we got a lot of people saying

that the thank you, Lauren, was cut off. What happened, man? Yeah. It was your birthday. The end was cut off. And you scampered away. What?

What are you talking about? You didn't even know. So everyone listening. I meant to tell you this, actually, the ending of the podcast was cut off a little bit. It was your birthday, so we didn't want to give you any shit.

He was like, I'm out of here. The ending was totally cut off. I got, I got to check that. Drill and holes. I got to check that. I got to talk to IT about that.

Two weeks left. Two weeks left to school. Give me a break. I got to lay down the smackdown on the intern after that. It's like everyone knows it's Hoback. I mean, this just matter. No offense. There's just thrilling.

Give me fucking break. Three weeks of school and give me a fucking break. All right. Thank you, D.K. Thank you, Craig. Thank you to everyone who pointed out that I did not say. Thank you, Lord. Lord.

Thank you. Or of a revolution. the prototypical college freshman playlist. I did not know that's what it stood for. I think it is. I didn't know that either. You learn something new every day. Do you know the band Orr though?

Yeah. It does stand for Upper Revolution, according to Google. All right. I just couldn't picture Aaron Rogers listening to Orr. Wait, you know Google is, you know, Google, like, increasingly will just give you an answer to a question instead of like a link, they'll just like tell you what's there. But it used to be like what's two plus two and it'd be like four.

But then they just used the algorithm to try to like get more and more confident with what they would answer for you. The other day, my girlfriend Googled why do people hate Anne Hathaway? And instead of a website, Google just said because she's boring.

I knew this. I knew the answer to this. It was like Google officials. Is that the algorithm or is that just like some pissed off tech guy who met Anne Hathaway. No, you know what it is? It's citing an article or something. It's actually proof of how bad Google has...

I actually think Google's gotten really sloppy with like how things work. They were pulling it from... Ranker. I don't want to shout out the website. Yeah, ranker.com. Google's like, well, ranker.com luckily has the definitive answer

on why America... She's seen as dull and unexciting. That is insane. Wait, so it's not just my Google, right? like that gives it to you too. Like, why do people eat Anna Heather? It just gives you an answer. Yep.

That's crazy. That's a literal subjective question. Google told me. I can be like, what's the best topping on a pizza? And it's like olives. I fucking hate olives. Fuck that. This is like the new world of information where people like instead of actually looking

something up and finding, you know, peer review document or something, they just ask TikTok. they have the fucking answer there and it's probably like some influencer doesn't know shit. How dare you? And Aaron Rogers is just like blown away. He's like, you know,

there's actually a lot of reasons people hate Anne Athaway. Can't trust everything you read. He's going to print out the documentation and bring it. Don't worry. All right. That's all we got.

Anne Hathaway. Shout out. You're underrated. Goodbye, everyone. She's good.