The Ringer NFL Show - Sneaky-Good Draft Values

Episode Date: August 6, 2021

We start with news of Joe Burrow’s not fully recovered knee and the Kenny Golladay hamstring situation in New York. Note: We recorded this before the report that Saquon Barkley might miss the first two weeks of the season. Then we introduce a segment called “Name Brand Off Brand.” You know how sometimes the off-brand product is just as good as the name brand for half the price? We look at the players who offer the same upside as more highly priced players but whom you can draft at a discount. News: QB Joe Burrow, Bengals (1:55) WR Kenny Golladay, Giants (7:46) WR Laviska Shenault, Jaguars (14:07) WR D.J. Chark, Jaguars (16:13) WR Marvin Jones, Jaguars (20:16) RB Travis Etienne, Jaguars (22:25) WR Robby Anderson, Panthers (26:57) RB Myles Gaskin, Dolphins (32:35) RB Zack Moss, Bills (37:35) TE Adam Trautman, Saints (43:02) Check out The Ringer's 2021 Fantasy Football Draft Guide here. Email us at [e-mail]. Hosts: Danny Heifetz, Danny Kelly, and Craig Horlbeck Producer: Craig Horlbeck Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Ringer Films is premiering its first of six films in our music box series, Woodstock 99, Peace, Love, and Rage on Friday, July 23rd on HBO. Woodstock 99 tells the story of the infamous music festival promoting unity and counterculture, but devolved into chaos and collapsed under the weight of its own ambition. Watch or stream Woodstock 99, Peace, Love, and Rage on HBO or HBO Max Now. Welcome to the Ringer Fantasy Football Show. My name is Danny Heifitz, and I am joined by... Did I say joined?

by today. Danny Kelly and Craig Horleback joining me today? It's Friday. You know, you're a little bit looser. It's all right. What is wrong with me? Hi, guys. All right. Well, I just took all the air with the intro. Anyway, we're going to do a bunch of, I'm the off-brand. Danny Hyfitz today. It's basically the point. We're doing name brand off-brand guys. We're just looking at guys that are really good values on the board today.

And then also basically it's like, you know, you go to the store. And then sometimes there's the store brand and then the generic is just as good. And you're like, why am I paying more money? Shouts out Kirkland brand anything Usually awesome We're essentially just doing Kirkland brand Fantasy You can get the medicine

That's like the active ingredient But you don't have to pay like 12 extra dollars for it It's amazing Right like when you get Claritin Like whatever the act is like acetamenefit I know that's not it But like just look for the off brand Kirkland Yeah you just need ibuprofoil

Don't shell out for the Advil Like what is Yeah anyway That's what we're doing for fantasy We're gonna go through all like the generic brand Once we're just looking for the active ingredient That's what we really want But first reminder that we're

We have a rankings up at fantasy football. Dot the ringer.com. We have literally hundreds of player profiles and rankings, upsides, downsides, please check it out. It's really fun. Fantasyfootball. Dot the ringer.com. There's also Easter eggs that we've,

if you find up, go for them. They're fun. We also have some news. Joe Burrow. Looking not great for the Bengals. That's kind of tough. Tyler Boyd at practice. I don't know if this was today or yesterday.

He said, Tyler Boy, the receiver quote, said, I think Joe's a little iffy on this knee, but it's hard to tell. I think he's ready to go, but he doesn't want to do too much, end quote. Whoa. Deepa, you love Burrow. What do you make of this?

So there was, yeah, along those lines, basically what Tyler Boyd said was, you know, he just looks a little bit unsure of his knee and kind of trying to like avoid. Like, for instance, I think there was someone pointed out the fact that he was like, you know, lifting up his foot trying to avoid the sack, like the people coming in around his feet and everything.

It's just, he's still a little bit nervous, I think about his knee. And I think that makes sense. There's probably not, we don't need to, out about this at all, I don't think, just because he's still, you know, like a three or four months away from being a year out. He tore his ACL and MCL. Sounds like there was some damage inside his knee. And yeah, I mean, I would say, you know, some people have miraculous recoveries from

ACL injuries and they come back and they're just as strong after six months. That's definitely not, I would not say that's the rule. I'd say typically you want to wait at least a year before guys are like starting to run like really hard and and feel the confidence in their knee. So we're still a ways away from that. And I think it does mean we need to kind of temper our expectations a little bit for exactly how effective burrow is going to be early in the season. But I think, you know, overall like career wise, I don't, I'm not worried. You know, them not being on the same pages, him not being on the same pages of receivers is

not a big deal to me yet. But yeah, there was a there was an athletic report from. Jay Morrison and Paul Dainer that basically was like yikes. The offense has just been yikes so far. You know, just like pass rush getting through on every play, wild throws, batted down passes, you know, all this stuff. It just looks really, really bad. So, again, it's early, but I think this kind of confirms what we've heard for a while

is that Burroughs not 100% and he's probably not going to be for a few months. He tore like three different parts of his knee, right? The injury was so gruesome. they couldn't even show it on TV. They literally refused to show it on TV. So, I mean, yeah, it's one of those things where I don't think this is out of expect, out of the like realm of expectation right now. It's like, it's going to take him a while to get fully comfortable with his knee again. Right. It was like week 10 last year or something like that. It was late, late November. I'm down on Burrow here. Like just, I feel like a lot of Burroughs fantasy value comes from

the idea that he's a scrambler and a runner. Like, that's not going to happen this year. But like, is this bother what you have about Jamar Chase for the, receiver core. Like you've got your March Chase there. You got Tyler Boyd, T. Higgins. Like, do you guys knock these guys down? Like between this and Joe Burrow just, you know, I mean, Tyler Boyd saying with Joe Burroughs if he on the knee. And then also, what has Zach Taylor done as the head coach slash offensive coordinator for this offense to give any of us any confidence? Are we kind of like overrating the bank? Like the Bengals have a bunch of cool players that we like. But is there any reason we should be optimistic about this team this season? Well, I think number one, they go fast. They pass a lot. Those are

two big things for fantasy clearly. They're going to be playing from behind a lot, I guess. I would assume just because they're not a very good team. And so those three things make me excited. However, you know, just if Burrow is not confident and he's not comfortable, he's not on the same page with his receivers, this is something that we may need to take a step back, move these guys down, make move Jamar Chase, T. Higgins, and Tyler Boyd down just a bit.

But again, like, this is something that we're going to have to see as it, how it goes along during the preseason. It sounds like he really wants to play during the preseason. If the reports continue, like basically the idea is don't overreact to one beat reporter story. You know what I mean? He's had a couple of bad practices. If this is a steady drum beat that happens throughout the preseason

and basically three weeks from now, it's still the same. That's where you can start kind of like freaking out a little bit. But I'm not worried quite yet. We may have to move them down a few spots. But to be honest, I'm not really worried yet. I mean, it's not like we have the Bengals guy. I mean, like, Jamar Chase is our first ranked wide receiver, and he's 51.

We don't even have a receiver on the Bengals in the top 50s. So it's like we're going crazy with projections. Maybe Higgins, Chase, and Boyd, all being in the top 70, between, you know, 51 and 68 is where we have all three of them. Maybe that's a little ambitious, and we can't expect all three of them to last. But couldn't you pivot here and just say, okay, Burroughs less mobile? They're just going to throw a ton. Maybe they go Ben Rothesberger style and just get the ball out quick every time. Like, is this really going to hurt the fantasy values of the receivers?

Are they going to throw less now because of Burroughs knee? No. I think in reality, we should not call them Cowboys East or Cowboys North or whatever you want to call them. What we probably should call them is Steelers Central, Steelers West, I guess. Cincinnati and Pittsburgh are very close together, by the way, aren't they? All I know is I know Cleveland and Pittsburgh are like surprisingly close. Yeah, actually, that's what I think I remember. that on the map the other day. When people were talking about

their training camp tour, I was like, holy shit. I've not realized they're that close. It's like a three-hour drive or something. Yeah. Listen to you West Coast guys, just figure out where cities the rest of America are kind of funny. Oh, please. East Coast people think that San Francisco and L.A. are like an hour and a half apart. It's like 12 hours. I mean, they are.

I mean, who cares? I don't know. How far a drive is that? Six. Six hours. But if you take the Pacific Coast Highway, it is 13 and yet worth it. The only thing between L.A. and San Francisco is just like industrial cow farms. honestly for like five hours how dare you

oh yeah the i5 drive is tough when you're going to like it permeates your car no one talks about baker's field your car just smells like cow shit for like an hour and a half it's unbelievable you can't there's nothing really does speaking of cow shit uh the near giants good one good segue

uh this sucks kenny golladay receiver out two to three weeks with a hamstring injury this kind of sucks it's always annoying when a receiver just has that hamstring injury and it's like it's not going to probably blend bleed into the season so you just have to decide am i going to take a guy who already has a hamstring issue so it's like we got to bump kennie galade down a little bit we have him 50th overall right now so it's like i wouldn't take him 50th now so the question is like how much do you want that

you don't want to overreact dk where would you take kennie galaday now that like he's going to miss most of the training camp and then you already got to deal with this guy who has not you know consistently played 16 games yeah it's a little tough um i will say the interesting thing about both Goladay and then we already talked about Jemar Chase, the guys that we have around him, the receivers that we have in that little grouping and that tier, T. Higgins, who's, you know, has the same issues that Jemar Chase has with a quarterback situation. Then we have Odell Beckham, who's coming off of an ACL tear. We have, Cortland Sutton, who's coming off of an ACL tear. And so like that little, you know,

group of receivers, maybe we just need to move like that whole group. I think, yeah. slightly, and then put guys like Brandon Ayuk, maybe Claypool, Robbie Anderson, you know, whoever, a little bit higher. But that group is like kind of the nervous zone now for me. Like, I don't know. It's just a little bit harder to pull the trigger on those guys. He's either going to go way too early in drafts or way too late. There's no in between when this type of hamstring thing happens, he's either going to be a great value or a terrible one. You know what I mean? The other thing that's nerve-wracking about Goliday is all the reports we've heard about training camp from Daniel Jones and from the offense in general is this

just looked like horseshit. So I guess maybe over the last few days, I think it has, like Daniel Jones has looked a little bit better. But yeah, I mean, I'm not optimistic about the Giants offense at this point in the off season, right? Hi Fitz. Who do you like in the passing game here for New York? So it's Sterling Shepard. I think if Ghaladay missed his time, I think Sterling Shepard gets the most work, but it's like Sterling Shepard isn't quite like the downfield receiver. I think he He'll get like a lot of catches maybe. So he's probably more valuable in like a PPR league. Yeah.

And we've got him 150. 151 overall. We're going to have to move him up because at first I didn't love Sterling Shepard. But if Ghalty missed his time, Shepard is like the begrudging one. It's not really a one. He's not really a one. It's more like the Giants have a bunch of twos. Evan Ingram.

We probably have to move Evan Angram up a little bit because at the end of the day, like he's infuriating. But I think that if Ghalty misses time. There's some Ingram buzz in the community growing. I feel like. I feel like people are talking themselves into Ingram this year. Yeah. Don't you think?

It's out there. You can feel it. It's palpable. It's humid. It's seeping into my car. The Evan Ingram humidity is high right now. It's seeping into my car. Like that drive from L.A. to San Francisco.

The other, and yeah, and then like Cadarius Tony, the Giants first round rookie, like I don't think he's going to make a significant fantasy impact in this year. So I would, like, that's kind of superfluous. I think it's between anger.

I think Slayton's actually, I think the best receiver of the group, but I think Shepard and Ingram of the two guys that I think. You think Slayton's better than Goliday? Wow. No, not, I said of the other non. Oh, okay, got, gotcha, got you.

No, no, no. The other thing that's very important we have to talk about from Giants Camp. Did you see what happened to Jason Garrett today, the Giants offensive coordinator? I didn't see this, actually. What happened? So he pulled the Dion Sanders, which is so, people referred to people were like, yes, I did see you, Jason in person. He said, well, you have to, like, you know, he call me coach.

Hey, coach, nice to see you in person. And, uh. He corrected the journal. who asked, who called him Jason? Yeah, he was like, call me coach. Kind of like with D.N. Sanders was like, call me coach prime.

He's only got like four weeks left of being a coach. Use it up while you came, Jason. Like, come on, dude. Is this really that important? God, I'm just like starting to feel like the giants are going to be a total disaster again this year. It's like when somebody gets an honorary doctorate

and they make you refer to them as doctor. Yeah, it's like, come on. What should we be referring to ourselves as? What should we insist certain people? Should we be doctors of fantasy? Fantasy doctors? In our fantasies, we're doctors, for sure. However, I think you should start calling me that.

Dr. Kelly? We should start giving out fantasy. We should start giving out fantasy prescriptions for people who are sick in their team. Or just snake oil salesman. God, dude. Also, we didn't even mention the Giants had a giant brawl. Yes, the Giants had a giant brawl. There's a lot going on over there.

Also. Joe Judge made everybody run. Daniel Jones jumped into the pile basically to be a part of the team. he jumped into the pile, got into scrum, to essentially make friends, Daniel Jones. And then they pulled him from the bottom of the scrum. So I've heard beat reporters say that the reasoning for these players' decision was different than what was happening at practice. But we've already had three giants come in and retire, or is that, am I, am I missing? Three giants have retired since training camp again.

Good sign. Which I love. No, I love it. I love Joe Judge. I am all in Joe Judge. Fuck this. I quit. The rest of the team, I have no idea.

No, I love it. It's just like, you know, you know what? Get out the heat. Get out the kitchen. If you can't stand the heat. Like, I love it. Please. Hyvetz, did you listen to Joe Judge on Flying Coach?

Oh, yeah. What'd you think? I love Joe Judge. Like, I am all in on Joe Judge. Unironically. If Giants don't make the playoffs this year, I think Gettelman probably goes. I think they probably have to move him from Jones. But I don't think Joe Judge goes if the, like, if Gettelman goes.

I think Giants fans largely, like, love Joe Judge. He's very popular. I think so, too. Yeah. Outside the, it's easy to make fun of, but like inside, I don't actually know any Giants fans who don't like Joe Judge, to be honest. All right, want to get to name brand off brand? Yeah.

Yeah, let's do it. All right. So again, we're looking for the active ingredients. Sometimes, you know, if you, you know, keep your eye out for whatever that active ingredient and you can pay a lot less. D.K., you want to go first? Another way to explain this is arbitrage. Basically, you cannot, if you don't want to spend, spend up on one of the early round

players, what you're looking for is guys that might fit sort of their profile, style, style, may have similar upside, but are far cheaper in draft. So that's the idea here. My first one example, my first example is Brandon Ayyuk for the 49ers versus Leviska-Shannolt versus the Jaguar. So, you know, no offense to Shadol, he's going much later in draft. He is the off-brand version of Iyuk, but I think actually when you look at it and think about it, they are similar style players.

Both guys are explosive, have good size, can play all three levels. Well, Chanel hasn't proven it quite as much as Iyke did it as it. rookie. But I do think Chanel has that skill set. And I think in year two, both guys have like big jump potential. Both guys are superstars at training at their respective training camp so far. So I'll just throw some numbers at you from 2020. Brandon Ayuk finished with 93 targets, 60 catches, 748 yards, five touchdowns. Chanel, meanwhile, 77 catches 58,000 yards, five touchdowns. They ran a similar amount of routes. as rookies.

They had almost identical amount of slot routes as rookies. And they had basically 24. There's a difference of 24 yards in the amount of yards after the catch they had as rookies. So, Chanel has the edge as a go up and get it type guy. The big thing that Chanel has to prove this year is that he can operate down the field. I think he can, based on what we're hearing out of training camp, is he's just balling out. Like, he's the best player on the field at times. they're both going to be playing with rookie quarterbacks this year.

Well, assuming Trey Lance wins the starting job, which I think we all assume he will at some point early in the season. And then so like Trevor Lawrence, it's the Trevor Lawrence versus Trey Lance question. Who has the edge there? I think it's pretty close. I mean, honestly, I would give Lawrence the edge as a passer early on in his career.

And so, yeah, I just think, you're getting a very similar style player with the potential to break out in the second year. He's going to be playing in a faster, more pass-heavy offense, I think, and you can make the argument he's going to be the number one in this offense. Obviously, DJ Chark is still there, so that's a question mark. But Kittle is in front of Ayuk, I would assume.

So, I don't know. I think there's similar style players, and I just think Shinald is the off-branded version. You're getting a similar type of deal, but much later. Can I admit something to you guys? Yes. I'm kind of into the Jacksonville Jaguars this year.

Me too, man. I think I kind of like the Jags. One, I think they're an awesome, sneaky AFC South Division winner bet. And I think that there's a big, like, shootout potential shitty defense, a lot of points. Trevor Lawrence really shows out year one. So we can roll right into my name brand off-brand here. I think DJ Chark could be like an off-brand Mike Evans.

Ooh, okay. I'm with you, though, before you started on Chark, which I like this, I'm pretty excited about Trevor Lawrence. I think Trevor Lawrence could have like a Justin Herbert style rookie year. Yeah, I mean, even an Andrew Luck-style rookie year I mean, like Reggie Wayne had like 107 catches and like 1,400 yards with Andrew Lux rookie season. But, I mean, listen, I'm not saying DJ Charks

is going to be Mike Evans. He's a knockoff pair of Gucci slides, you know? If you look closely, there's some imperfections there. It's not so the same. Sure. So Charks going around 70th, Mike Evans' 34th. Essentially, you can get them double Mike Evans' draft pick. So Charks kind of had some Alan Robinson syndrome passed.

He's a Jacksonville Jaguar receiver, obviously, but the poor guy hasn't played with many good quarterbacks in his life. He's caught passes from Gardner, Munchu, Bordals, Cody Kessler, Nick Foles, Mike Glennon, Jake Luton, and in LSU, he had Danny Etling. That's it for Chark. And he's already got in a thousand-yard season with eight touchdowns under his belt.

He did that last year. Or, sorry, he did that two years ago. Last year wasn't as good, but last year was tough, man. I mean, they had Glennon for five games, Luton. They were actively tanking. And Chark is 6-3. He's got 4-3-3.

speed and Trevor Lawrence is an aggressive passer. I mean, he's had guys like T. Higgins at Clemson, like, I think there's a great chance that DJ Chark is the Red Zone guy for Jacksonville, and he's the T. Higgins from Trevor Lawrence's Clemson of the 2021 Jacks. I think he's a great value. How does he remind you of Mike Evans is my question? Well, I mean, I'm more me Mike Evans in the stat line he puts up. I'm not as good as UDK with like actual player comps. I'm saying like what Mike Evans does in offenses, like kind of around 1,000 yards, not. Not as many catches as like the Godwin types, like a 75 catch, 1100 yards, 10 touchdowns. Like that's stat line.

Yeah. I think chart could be that for the Jags. See, that makes sense. And I think that part of the reasoning, I think we're promoting some of these Jaguars receivers is we don't really know who the number one is going to be if it's going to be Chanel or if it's going to be DJ Charc. I think both are good bets. And regardless, even if one is number two and the other one, like basically if Chark is number one and Chanel's two, I'm still going to like Schnault. and vice versa. But yeah, I mean, I think

if I was going to compare Chark like stylistically to a different player, it might actually be more like a Terry McLaurin and Alan Robinson style guy. And I think, but either way it works.

Like, this guy could end up being, this guy could end up being closer to what he was two years ago, which is like this breakout star. And then he just couldn't get on the same page as Minshew last year. Things went to shit. Like he was, you know,

he got the word for the worst body language of any player in the NFL last year. Like DJ Shark did, he was like so pissed at Gardner Minchu for missing him like 35 times a game. Which again, Alan Robinson. That's what Alan Robinson used to do. I like the Alan Robinson comp here. I'm going to go with that one.

Listen, all my comps today are not about style. It's about fantasy value. It's strictly like numbers on a page, not like stylistically how they play. Okay. Yeah, all right. So you're saying you got DJ Shark as the off brand and D.K., you're saying Livisca Chanel, what if I just coming off the top rope, right? now and saying the actual off off, off brand, like real, like sketchy rip off when you

Marvin Jones, man. I think Marvin Jones might be the best receiver for the Jaguars. Like, here's the thing. I can't, first of all, you can you both of the Jaguars? You know what? I don't want to kink shame. You're into whatever you're into. That's fine.

Yeah. But if you're into the Jaguars passing offense, which I get, it's not hard to buy into Trevor Lawrence having good season. Here's what we know. You're right, D.K., that Leviska-Schenol's really athletic. I like the IU comp. Like, it's a very similar. like you're betting on talent and upside.

My issue with what Craig said about Chark is that Urban Myers straight up said, DJ Chark plays small. And I think that when coaches say there's kind of, he said he played small last year. And I think when coaches say that publicly, it's kind of one of those things of like, you better freaking change that. Now maybe Chark responds.

Like there's plenty of examples where coaches say something publicly to, you know, challenge a player and then the player rises to the occasion. However, so Daryl Bevel is the offensive coordinator for the Jaguar. and he used to be in Detroit. And then what happens this offseason? The Jaguar's sign Marvin Jones Jr.

Now, we look at this as, well, Marvin Jones is old and boring and Levisca's athletic and DJ Chalk's really good. I think the coaching staff might be looking at this as, well, we don't know, we don't know these guys. We're a new staff. Urban Meyer didn't draft Leviska Channot. Didn't draft DJ Chark. Urban Meyer didn't even like what he saw on tape from DJ Chark last year. You know the only guy that this coaching staff has worked with? Marvin Jones.

And so I'm wondering, Marvin Jones is going like 140th overall. What if he's the most productive receiver for this team in the first half of the season? I like, yeah, this is like the levels thing. He's off brand, Chark, and Chanel. He's like the sketchy thing you can buy on. It's like coming from China and it's like the instruction booklet's not in English, but it's like it works. He's black market or whatever. Like you get it out of the back of somebody's van.

Silk Road. Someone opens up their, their like coat and it's full of watches. that's the kind of like... Yeah, well, didn't... One of the ball brothers in Lithuania, wasn't the coach of the basketball team selling meat out of his trunk? That's where you get the Marvin Jones,

but like, you know what? Trunk meat. Sometimes that's the best meat, is the trunk meat. Wow. Anyway. Yeah, listen, I think he's an absolutely

justifiable dart throw. I love Marvin Jones as a dart throw. Do we want to go any further level down? Like, should we start talking about Colin Johnson or Jalen camp? Okay. Oh, my God. All right. So we had any other Jaguars? I can't believe we just talked about the Jaguars that long.

You got to toss out Travis E.T.N. Minnie-Olin, Camara, baby. Hell yeah. More Jaguars? We got to be more. We got to be fair. Travis E.T.N. I think, is a arbitrage of Dandre Swift more than Camara, in my opinion. Again, are you talking about stylistically? Yeah, and just like expectations-wise. Do you expect? Yeah, sure.

But I think I'm picking up what you're putting down, though. I understand what you're saying. Like stylistically, they're going to be used in similar ways. Not going to be super duper heavy volume, right? Is that your point? Yes, not heavy volume, high efficiency. The history of first-round running backs in their rookie season having a strong years is really promising.

They average, like 17 touches a game in the last 10 years, the average first-round running back. And again, it's the only guy Trevor Lawrence played college football with on his team currently. So I don't think that can go too understated. I'm writing an article about this, Craig, for our NFL preview about how there's like four guys. that are reuniting with their college teammate in this coming out of this draft. So there's Travis E.T.N. and Trevor Lawrence.

Burrow and Chase. DeVote and Chase. DeVante Smith and Jalen Hertz. You know, it's like removed a little bit. You could even do Terrace Marshall and Matt Rule even though he's not a player. Yeah. Well, Joe Brady. Oh, Joe Brady, sorry. And then also, who is it?

Tua and Jailua. Anyway. I think it's just kind of fun. But yes. Good chemistry. Hit the ground running. Do you think it means something? That millennials are weak and they're co-dependent. Is it trivia that these players play together in college?

Or do you think it's actually like can help them get going earlier in their careers? I think it's the latter. I think it, I mean, not only because I'm writing about it and I'm trying to talk myself into making a good article. But I really do think that. So like picture Trevor Lawrence, picture what he's doing as he's, you know, completely overwhelmed. guessing with terminology and trying to learn defenses and the speed of the pro game versus the college game and all that stuff, having a guy who's reliable, you've been there. And we see this like in basketball, like two guys just understand each other, can pass

to each other. And it's like thoughtly. You don't have to like guess where they're going to be. I think the same can be applied for like Trevor Lawrence and he's like either dumping it off or looking for Travis ETIN down the field. He knows, number one, he knows like what ETIN is going to do. they've done this a thousand times or whatever in practice and in games. Number two, he knows his speed so he can lead him the right amount.

I think those two things are like it's a small thing. It's marginal. It's not like the only thing that matters. But I think it will certainly help. And I think that's going to be big for him as a rookie particular because it's just one less thing you have to worry about or one less thing you have to think about. Knows his speed. I like that.

And the Jacks have the easiest, like one of the easiest schedules in the league this year because they're so bad last year. and their division sucks. I mean, Houston is going to be terrible. Tennessee's defense is going to be terrible. I agree with all that. It's not great. And the Colts are just a trash fire right now. I think you're right about the Jags

as a sneaky division bet because I think the Texans probably are the most pathetic franchise in any sport in America right now. I think we can agree on that. The Colts. All right, you guys actually convinced me, actually, to be into the Jaguars. Wow, look at that.

Yes. I just think there could be a lot of like 35, 31 games, and Lawrence is thrown for like 400 yards a game and everybody's racking up points. And we're like, it doesn't take long for the flip to switch. And everyone just goes, oh, like, this is now a team.

This is now a fantasy relevant team. Like, it's going to take one game of Lawrence putting up like 3.89. And we're like, oh, shit. All of these receivers are going to be good. Let's just button this up then while we're here. Trevor,

what's the highest you would take? When would you take Trevor Lowen someone the quarterbacks? Like, would you trust him to be your starting quarterback? Or is he just like a really high upside backup quarterback for you to take late? Oh, I would definitely trust him to be my starter. I think right now

it's tough because I think so right now we've got Tom Brady has a QB12 and then we have Joe Burrow QB 13 Justin Fields QB 14 I think in our next reset on the rankings I'm guessing Burrow probably drop a little bit

and I wouldn't even I wouldn't even mind putting Lawrence at 13 or 14 honestly yeah I think I can tell you right now I probably would take Lawrence after the Brady staffer for Jalen Hertz Tana Hill group is gone because I think Lawrence is more upside than like Matt Ryan, but we also know he's going to start on like Trail Answer Field.

So I think that I would take him at the top of that triumvirate with the rookies. He's also going to run. He's going to run too. Yeah, exactly. I got another active ingredient here. So there's Cooper Cup who in like mock drafts right now is being taken around 43rd. And then there's Robbie Anderson for the Panthers who's being taped in like 76th. So you can wait 40 picks.

on Cooper Cup and get Robbie Anderson. Now again, this is not stylistically. They're not like quite the same player. But the stats are like weirdly similar. Basically, the difference between Cooper Cup last year and Robbie Anderson is like Robbie Anderson had three more catches. He had 100 more yards and the same amount of touchdowns. Very oddly similar stat lines.

But I love Robbie Anderson almost more than I like Cooper Cup this year, or at least it's close enough that I have to. think about it for two seconds. Robbie Anderson was misused by the Jets and Adam Gase because it was everything Adam Gays. He goes to the Panthers, has the best year of his career. They put him in space. It's 1100 yards.

And he has more yards after the catch with the Panthers in one season than he did the previous two seasons with the Jets combined. He's really good there. But the difference is like the same reason you would like Cooper Cup, where you know, when he had a lot of yards, only three touchdowns. Matt Stafford's probably going to make the offense better. Cooper a couple of more than three touchdowns. I think that's the same.

with Robbie Anderson. Like, I think that he, Robbie Anderson had 1100 yards and only three touchdowns last year. I think that gets a lot better. But I actually believe Sam Darnold makes the Panthers better than Teddy,

than they were with Teddy Bridgewater. Everyone doesn't share that opinion, but if you're a believer like me that basically Donald was never going to be able to overcome all the different reasons the Jets were a trash fire, now that he goes to a competent team

that with a slightly better line, but a lot better skill players and a lot better coaching. And he also, guess what, played with Robbie Anderson. Roby Anderson was the best receiver, Sam Donald's like ever had and they had a good rapport when they were at the Jets. I like Robbie Anderson a lot this season and the fact that you can get Robbie

Anderson to be your fourth depending your draft your fifth receiver and he could end up being pretty easily like a top 20 guy. I love Robbie Anderson. I think it's a high floor and also really high ceiling and you can get him pretty late. It's interesting that last year he actually did finish ahead of Cooper Cup too and half BPA. Yeah. It's like I think a lot of people aren't buying that he's the real deal. You know what I mean? I think. Anchoring. Yeah. They're anchored. And I don't honestly, I don't know what the answer is, like, is he the real deal? I think a lot of people are more excited.

Well, here's my fantasy tip. It's take advantage of people being like, ugh, he was a jet. Yeah. Well, okay, let me toss one. Let me be a voice of dissent here. So they added Terrace Marshall, who, like we said, played with Joe Brady at LSU, and now McCaffrey will be back. Robbie Anderson's whole thing last year, he kind of basically did what everybody

thought DJ Moore was going to do. Like, they thought DJ Moore was going to be, like, the short guy, yards after the catch guy. you know, zero to nine-yard catches. That's what Robbie Anderson was. But now McCaffrey's back. McCaffrey's kind of that guy. I mean, he might be the one soaking up all the line of scrimmage passing plays. Are you worried at all that Terrace Marshall playing in the slot plus McCaffrey running routes on every damn play?

Could potentially just really eat into Robbie Anderson? Honestly, no, because there's so much room for him to grow. First of all, I think the team will be better. Like, that's important. Like the offense with Donald, I actually think it would be better. That's number one. Two, I don't think, I mean, Terrace Marshall is a good player. not worried that he's going to like significantly eat into Robbie Anderson like immediately

in his career. I don't think that Teres Marshall profiles is the kind of guy that's like going to come in and dominate and like outperform DJ more and Robbie Anderson immediately. Robbie Anderson's good. And if you're on a different team would be like a lot more of like a bigger profile receiver who just stuck on the jets and they were terrible. Like in a different world, he's like an exciting player that people are excited about. Contract year narrative too, I think. Contract year for Robbie Anderson. And then again, I can't stress this enough. Before the 40 yards, line, the Panthers had the second best offense by DVOA, which is like efficiency. The second most efficient offense before the 40 yard line.

They were only second to the chiefs. Inside the 10-yard line, they were 30th. They went from the second best offense to the 30th inside the 10-yard line. If they can fix that, and they don't have to be great, even when they get to slightly a below average, there's just way more pie for everyone to go around. It's interesting. Once things get condensed in the red zone that they feel. apart.

I wonder what that's all about. I think it's because the Joe Brady Panthers, the offense he brought from LSU, it's all about spacing. And so as the space gets condensed, they certainly, like, get crunched and struggle in the red zone. But I also think that's why they were frustrated with Teddy Bridgewater, is that no, look, obviously their coaches,

they have to take some responsibility. But they can't get worse. They literally, like, unless they somehow drop from 30th to 30 second, overwhelming odds are they're going to get better in the freaking gold to go. It could be 30 first or 32nd, yeah. Yeah, you could be first, you could be second, you could be third. but you can't be 30 third

so I just I think the Panthers are a really undervalued team oh man I can't wait to watch Panthers just off this is not an analysis but I think it's just gonna be a lot of fun to see like if Darnell takes a jump I love these receivers obviously Christian McCaffrey is one of the most fun players to watch in the NFL

do you think um Panthers players during a down moment are just like kind of asking Sam like what was it like with Gase give me some jet stories do you think like Sam Donald talks a bunch of shit or just kind of is like, yeah, I can't believe I got out of there and kind of speaks about it like he's...

He's shell-shocked. Right, like escape to prison. Yeah, he still doesn't like... The Randall Cobb. He hasn't worked through it yet. No, he just has to see how a competent organization runs and then he's just like, huh?

You guys don't change your offensive line combination when you get mad? You don't just switch who the starters are? God damn it. All right, D.K. Okay, so I got a good one here. I think that you guys will enjoy. Clyde Edwards Allaire

is the name brand. And he is going right now for the underdog ADP, RB 14, RB 14, 23rd overall. So obviously, you know,

second round pick, third round pick, whatever, he's up there. And then Miles Gaskin is the off-round version, I think, of Clyde Edwards-Halear.

Obviously, he's not as good of an offense. There's not as much buzz. His standing with the team is clearly not as strong as Clyde-Edwards-Hillard. But if you look at what they did

in 2020, it's almost identical. Like legitimately almost identical their production on a per game basis last year. Identical. So on a per game basis, so CEH played 13 games, Gaskin played 10. So their totals are slightly different.

But on a per game basis, Edwards-Layer, 13.9 attempts per game, rushing attempts per game. Gaskin 14.2. C-EH, 61 yards per game. Gaskin 58. They both averaged 0.3. touchdowns per game, so almost identical there.

And then receiving, Gaskin actually outproduced Edward Sillard in that area, 4.1 catches and almost 40 yards per game. C.E.H was 2.8 catches and 22.8 yards per game. So they both average 14 carries for 60 yards a game and a third of a touchdown. Was the per game rush? Exactly. Exactly. And so, look, I'm a fan of CEH this year and I'm actually bullish on CEH, But Gaskin's going so much later because of the uncertainty. You know, he's not as high profile of a guy.

But you might end up getting like almost identical production from this guy, especially if the chiefs keep using like a rotation at the position. And that was exactly the opposite of what the dolphins did last year. They just leaned on Gaskin. I mean, his volume was through the roof. He played like 70% of snaps. His target rate was top six in the NFL. You know, he's averaging 15.6 rush times per game.

after he took over in week three. And so, like, obviously, those stats that I just noted wasn't even, didn't even include, it did include a couple games where he wasn't as involved. So, I don't know, man. I just think, you know, he's a talented guy. He's, I don't think he's as good as Cloud Edwards-Hler, but he's so much cheaper. He's just basically the discount version of stylistically what you're getting with CEH.

He's not on as good of an offense. But if Tua is as good as he seems so far in training camp, that that offense could be looking a lot better. than we think it will. Yeah, their line sucks in Miami, but I think they just fed him, Mao's gasking the ball at the goal line. I don't know if I've been as surprised

in like a few years, honestly, at how much a fairly unheralded young player was just getting absolute faith from this. I mean, I think there was a game where he got like four or five consecutive carries inside like the 15-yard line, like over and over, and they weren't subbing out,

and they weren't passing out. And so the question to me really is, will that continue? Do they sign a veteran? My concern with Miles Gaskin, actually is not about Miles Gaskin, but that they tried to claim Kerryon Johnson when he was on waivers and they lost.

And my concern is solely whether that, to me, signals they're still looking to improve the running back room. And that's my fear is that they signed someone like August 30th and we're pissed about it. But if they don't, like Miles Gaskin's a really good value. So I totally get that, but like at the same time, they had the whole entire off season to sign a guy.

They didn't do it. You're right. Honestly, like, who's out there right now that could take over and be better than him? Todd Gurley, who we have a 30 to one bet that he plays football again, and I think I owe you a shitload of money. It doesn't fucking sign. Yeah. The only, I would say the thing I'm more worried about, I'm not so worried about, like, guys like Jared Dokes behind him or, you know. Is that Jared Dokes?

Orn, Or any of the guys behind him. What's that? Dokes, right? I'm not going to lie. Dokes. The Miami depth chart gets to. thin quick. Jared Doakes is their seventh round pick, I believe, or sixth round pick. And he's interesting, I would say. He's a bigger guy. But I don't think he's going to come in and immediately

be like in front of Gaskin. I think Gaskin would have to get hurt for Dokes to be a factor. What I'm more worried about is him not being as big of a part of the passing game as he was last year. Like I said, 4.1 receptions per game. That's pretty solid. And now you got Fuller, Waddle. you got Preston Williams coming back Devante Parker healthy just you know

Albert Wilson apparently is like showing out in camp if those guys are much more involved in the passing game and they're not just dumping it off

dumping it off then that could certainly hurt Gaskin's bottom line in half PBR and PBR so that is the one thing I would say I'm a little bit worried about

all right like Miles Gaskin Craig so my off my name brand is David Montgomery my off brand is Zach Moss. Again, not stylistically, but...

No, I think stylistically, it's perfect, actually. Oh, okay, good. Like, they're the same type of running back in my mind. Craig knew that. He did that on purpose. Yeah, I got you. I was testing you. You passed. David Montgomery is going 42nd in underdog ADP. Zach Moss is going 111?

I mean, you can get him in the double-digit rounds, and he's the starting running back on a top five offense. And I know that the criticizing of Zach Moss and the bills is that they don't run the ball ever and when they do, Josh Allen runs it. But he tied Josh Allen in goalline rushes last year. They each had 15. He had more red zone rushes than Singletary.

Like, if they're going to run the ball, if they're going to hand the ball off, I should say, it's going to Zach Moss. And I'm not sure what they're going to do with Josh Allen. You know, I think people always assume that as quarterbacks get older and more established, they start to run you less because they want to preserve you. I don't know if that's going to happen with Josh Allen

because he's kind of a maniac. but I just think he's a great value for what he is. I mean, he was hurt last year. He basically got turf toe immediately. He missed a bunch of games. Then he hurt his ankle late in the season. And he's a receiving back. Coaches like him.

He's getting good reports out of camp. One of the bills reporters, Joe Buscogli, has said that there's a possibility that Singletary is a weekly and active. Because they like Brita? Healthy scratch. Yeah, that's what, I mean, a beat reporter said. Wow. So the reason why I'm comparing him to David Montgomery is,

because if Justin Fields takes over here, he's going to have a similar situation as Zach Moss where he's going to be competing with Tariq Cohen in the passing game and Damien Williams to backup, plus the big body Justin Fields potentially running the ball in the red zone. Like if you're into the David Montgomery vibe, like go get Zach Moss 70 picks later, and you could technically get the same thing.

I mean, what JJ Zacharisen's whole thing is that how you find value late with running backs is you draft the 1A running back on a team where the running backs are going late in the draft, and that is exactly what Zach Moss is. I like this one a lot. Zach Moss, I believe, was, so they were both third-round picks, I'm pretty sure.

Zach Moss and David Montgomery both lack high-end speed, but are very good tackle breakers, like physical tackle-breaking running backs that can carry a load. I think the difference here is clearly Montgomery's done it. Zach Moss was disappointing as rookie. And also, like all the context that you added with Buffalo and the way that they changed,

just don't run the ball, you know, and then Josh Allen, steel, Skolline carries. I think those are all legit concerns, but I've been taking Moss actually a lot. I'm all over this. I like this a lot. I mean, he's 111. Yeah. And he's the starting running back on a top five office.

I think he's, and I think he's way better than he showed last year. I think he's actually a pretty good running back. Yeah, he was hurt all year last year. And he's got a bigger body. He's like 10, 15 pounds heavier than Singletary. He's too much taller than Singletary. I don't think Singletary's like the heavy workload guy.

If it ends up being somebody, it's going to be Zach Moss. If he can play. 60 to 70% of the snaps and Buffalo this year, he's a steal. Yeah, and David Montgomery, to your point, so Tariq Cohen actually is not having a good recovery from his ACL. It seems to be a theme this whole offseason.

But Tariq Cohen is not just, he's just not really as healthy as you would like him to be. He might not really be as much of a factor for the bear's season. But Damien Williams is also a really good pass catcher. And David Williams is the kind of running back who can kind of do everything. So I actually think that David Montgomery and Damien Williams will have

somewhere between, like, Montgomery's not quite a three downback, but it's also not quite a committee. But I think Damien Williams has a real role for the Bears. I love Damien Williams. Everyone forgets, like, he should have been the MVP of that Super Bowl. I mean, look, Mahomes is always,

the quarterback's always going to win the MVP in the Super Bowl. But Damien Williams had like over 100 yards. He had two touchdowns. Like, he was really good. And then he opted out of last season. But he's a really good player. And let it's not quite the, I mean, you could say even the brown, the bears are like this.

generic version of the of the browns like a very very very very poor man's version of the browns where it's a pretty good combo of montgomery and and damy williams but i don't know if davy if montgomery does anything close to what we thought um usage wise yeah i'm very torn on montgomery because i think on like and on one hand i could see him just starting to take over like we did last year where he's just used utilized in the passing game a whole bunch um and they unlock them a little bit uh With, you know, with Justin Fields at quarterback, that's going to open up more gaps. It's going to, like, spread the defense out and make it tougher on the defense. I could see him getting unlocked efficiency-wise by that.

But also, like, it's very easy to see, like, you were saying high fits, where Damien Williams just come in, comes in. He's the one B. They, you know, use a very heavy rotation. And it's the back to the David Montgomery Bowl, where he's, like, good for 10 points in PPR. And, you know, you can move on with your day versus, like, last year where he was a legit league winner down the stretch.

but they had nobody else on that team to get the ball. Like they literally were going guys off the street, like Ryan Knoll. Like they had nobody else to play. Now they, I think they actually made a concerted effort to get guys they can lead on. Yeah, and they also drafted guy Khalil Herbert, who's kind of interesting. Damien Williams has been getting a lot of buzz, though, I will say. So that's starting to make me worried a little bit about. He had like 100 yards a game in that 2019 playoffs.

He was really good. Yeah. All right. Can I give you any of another generic one? So Mark Andrews is like the general. is like the name brand here. I mean, he's obviously tied in for the Ravens. He's going like 57th.

And then there's my guy, Adam Troutman. Nice. 140th tight end for the Saints. He might be the number one receiver on the Saints right now. That's what I'm saying. What do you want in a tight end with upside? Like ultimately what you want is the guys, the tight ends who are in that top tier are Travis Kelsey,

Darren Waller, George Kittle and Mark Andrews, who are tight ends that functionally speaking are the number one receiver on their team. Adam Troutman can very easily join that list. I don't know if there is a single tight end outside the top 120 picks that has a better chance to lead their team in receiving categories than Adam Troutman.

Michael Thomas is probably going to miss like the first half of the season and who knows how effective is if he comes back. And all the questions you have about the Saints passing game of like, what about Taysam Hill and James Winston? What the hell's going on? How much are they going to pass? Is Taysa Mill going to steal carries in the red zone

or touchdowns? We have all those thoughts about Baltimore more too. Like you're kind of getting the similar questions about this quarterback game, a limited offense, how much are they going to pass? But you can wait like 90 picks and get Adam Troutman, who

might be able to give you like 80 or 90% of what Mark Andrews does. Now, you're betting on talent, obviously he's never done it before, but the saints clearly have faith in him because they have like no other tight ends of consequence on their roster. And that's like always a huge sign of faith. It's like teams can say whatever they want, a guy can be athletic. But when they

show you with the depth chart that, no, we believe this guy so much, we actually don't have a fallback. We let Jared Cook and Josh Hill leave in free agency. I think Troutman is like maybe my single favorite value in all fantasy right now. So they did sign Nick Vanette to a not insignificant deal. I don't think he's going to stand in the way. I think he's probably more of like a blocking tight end and Troutman will be used in more versatile ways.

We'll see how that all goes. I think, yeah, I think this is a really good one and this is a good example of like arbitrage and namebrate. and off-brand in the sense that you might end up getting the same or similar upside. I think Troutman's floor is way lower, but that's fine because you're getting him like so much

later. Yeah, that's the thing. He could be completely awful this year. He could have no impact, but the point is he's literally a 14th round pick. Who can't? Totally. Is he good, D.K.? I mean, he was very good receiving tight end in college. I believe he won the Mackey Award,

the top tight end in college football. I'll double check that, but like, yeah, he was he was a very talented guy. He was playing at a lower level. Let me double check here. Fantasy football is funny, isn't it? You can go through all of these things, and the ninth question I ask is like,

is he good, though? You're right. Like, I like the situation so much, but like, how is he at playing the game? Is he good at it? He went to Dayton. Yeah, he went to Dayton Flyers. He was the first guy drafted from Dayton in, like, a long time.

I'm checking if he won the Mackey. I believe he did. He was a third round pick, like, in the round. real life. Yeah, 105th? I mean, yeah, again, we don't have to, he doesn't have to be George Kittle. Like, he's going into 14th round. That's why I think this makes sense. And again, you can, and then basically, you're just trying to see if you can escape from the constant slog of the tight end streaming. And if you, like, you know, if he sucks, you can cut him loose. But, you know, anything you can do

to not have to ask yourself, what am I going to do at tight end every week, which is the least fun part of fantasy football other than when your friends will argue with each other in a group chat, anything to get away from that. Kirkland, baby. Never disappoints. Oh, I'm sorry. He did not win the Mackey. I was...

Oh, I'm out. I was confused. I was confusing him with Harrison Bryant, who is on the... That's so upsetting. It was such a better point when he won the best... Switch to Harrison Bryant now.

Just pivot. He was... There's a... My favorite value on the board is Harrison Bryant. He won the Mackey Award, I heard. He did. Yeah, I like that.

I've always loved Harrison Bryant. good good okay any other name brand off brand we got here any of active ingredients you guys are looking at no i'm good i think so there's a ton of these there's a ton of these and and if you guys have other good ones like send them over because we're always looking for that kind of um email us at ringer fantasy football at gmail dot com if you like if you have other on brand or name brand off brand i also want to read some of the we asked people to email us about is sammy walkins good want to go through some of the responses. I'm also going to check Twitter.

I did a poll. I want to see what it landed on. Yes. See what the poll landed on. I'm just going to read some clips of what people said. We got something from Stewart, which is, if you ask me if Sammy Watkins is a good player, I think he is. I guess I missed all the injury stuff, but in my mind, he's a solid second or third receiver.

It's like, okay. We've also got someone, Mark wrote in that if Sammy Watkins gets over the thousand yards in the Happy Gilmore theme, if Samuel, Watkins is over the thousand yards, it's the happy place where, like, his grandma's winning all the slots. And if Sammy Watkins is, like, under 500 yards, it's the one where, like, Shooter McAvins making out with his grandmother in the shooting, Gene Simmons mask. Yeah. Jesus Christ. Those are the two same place. So the poll ended up, there was 840 votes. 57% said that Sammy Watkins is good, 43 said he is bad. Sounds about right. Glad that settled. Glad we could get a definitive answer.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Sammy Watkins kind of sucks. Emails at Rear Fantasy Football at gmail.com. Email is fun facts. Emails. I don't know.

What do you think of Sammy Watkins? And then also name brand off, friend, whatever you got. Thank you, D.K., thank you, Craig. Thank you, I don't know, U.S. patent law for the 20 year. I'm glad they can't just keep the patent forever. Like, that's probably good. Thank you, the next Kansas City Chiefs, the Jags? Took me a second to register that.

Thank you, Jacksonville. Greatest City on Earth. Thank you, Lorne. Lord. Thank you, Mark Morrison. Okay. Return of the Mac. Do you look up the person you, do you think of it off the top of head or do you think,

or do you actually look up a band? We were talking about the Macie Award, so I remember the song Return of the Mac. Okay. That was my train of thought. I don't want you looking him up because that... Well, this is going to get ugly if I don't look them up. Looking them up is not the point of this episode. I agree.

We want you to put you on the spot. It's going to start just doubling up on like every artist everybody said. Goodbye, everyone. We'll see you next week.