The Ringer NFL Show - TE Sleepers, Tiers, and Fears 2025

Episode Date: August 4, 2025

The guys walk through their tight end rankings, place the TEs in tiers, and address their most pressing fears. Plus, emails! (00:00) Intro (01:17) Thoughts on the tight end position this year (06:13) Tier 1: Brock Bowers and Trey McBride (19:45) Tier 2: George Kittle (24:33) Tier 3: Mark Andrews, Sam LaPorta, and T.J. Hockenson (33:21) Tier 4: Travis Kelce, David Njoku, Evan Engram, and Tucker Kraft (50:28) Tier 5: Kyle Pitts, Colston Loveland, Jake Ferguson, Dalton Kincaid, Dallas Goedert, and Tyler Warren (1:11:13) Emails! Check out the 2025 Ringer Fantasy Football Rankings: https://fantasyfootball.theringer.com/ Email us! [e-mail] Getaway sales event. The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Hosts: Danny Heifetz, Danny Kelly, and Craig Horlbeck Producers: Ronak Nair, Kai Grady and Carlos Chiriboga Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Football show, my name is Danny Huygens, and I'm joined by Danny Kelly and Craig World Bank, and today we are going over our tight end tears, our tight end fears, our tight-in sleepers, everything, previewing the tight-end position for 2025. Usually we hit a little news at the top. Full disclosure, it's Wednesday, July 30th, that we're recording this episode. So the news is kind of old now. So we're going to hit anything big that has happened, and I'm sure something has happened between where we're recording this and when you're listening to it.

We will hit that in the middle of this week. We'll have another episode coming to you on Wednesday and more after that. So we'll hit the news then. So we're going to get into tight ends. And I want to start with this, Danny Kelly, because I feel like for the most part, honestly, most of the time I've ever been playing fantasy football, it's just tight end is just the worst position. It's so annoying. You either have Travis Kelsey or a George Kittle here or there. And you either have those guys or you're unhappy.

And so we always talk about how just streaming tight ends and adding a guy off waivers in week eight because the buy week's the most annoying part of the whole freaking hobby we do. So looking at tight end for 2025, do you basically feel? the same way that this position's really annoying or is any part of you excited about it? No, not really. I'm not excited about it, in other words. It still sucks. It's kind of one of those positions where it's just so rare to see

a tight end be either the number one or number two option in the passing game. And that's kind of like what you need to have a real true fantasy difference maker. Every once in a while, guys like, you know, KDOTN or whatever, like because of injury will become the number two. But for the most part, receiver so deep, NFL teams are running so many

sets with wide receivers is going forward. And I don't know, it's just one of those positions that doesn't get a ton of targets. And I think it makes a lot of sense why it's like they're bigger and slower lumbering oaths usually. And receivers are very fast. I thought they were really athletic, D.K. The really good ones are really athletic. But what about the bad ones?

The bad ones are not as athletic, Craig. Yeah, they're lumbering oafs, if you will. So I don't know. It makes sense why. Lumbering oaps is about NFL tight ed. I know. They're probably like. If you played basketball against them, they would be just absolutely like dunking on you.

Every NFL tight end probably could have been played basketball if they were 6-8 instead of 6-4. But I mean, you're comparing them to a 5-foot 11, 195-pound guy who could run a 4-3. So those guys are a little faster and quicker, generally speaking, and can get open quicker. And so I think that's kind of why passing games, generally speaking, go through the receivers. But there are a handful of guys, Brock Bowers, Trayvink Bride, Superstar-type players. So that's exciting. But overall, I feel like the position's just as big of a pain in the ass as always. Craig, do you agree with D.K., that tight ends still sucks?

Or is he just old and jaded? It mostly sucks. It is kind of fun that for the first time in a long time, like the two best tight ends are not Travis Kelsey and Mark Andrews. There is kind of a new wave of talent. Trey McBride, Brock Bowers. That is really fun. Sam Leporto, Tucker, Kraft.

Like there's a new wave coming, which is exciting. but the yearly amnesia you get with Tide End where you say, you know what, I'm going to wait and try to play Wackamol and hope that Shigakonkwo goes off this year, that timeless ritual makes Tide End the most frustrating position in fantasy. It's kind of like how it, you know,

Kevin Garnett said this about like Janus, where if he hits the first three-pointed a game, you're happy because then he'll keep shooting or sometimes you walk in a casino and you play Blackjack and you win a bunch of the first, or you play roulette and you hit and you win, the casino's probably happy because now you're going to do that forever.

I just can remember the winning. It's like it's almost bad if you hit Jimmy Graham in the 11th round of your fantasy league in like 2011 because now you're just thinking you can do that every year and it's been 15 years and you probably haven't done it since. And you're like, oh, well, Brock Bowers last year. And it's like, yeah, but like it's probably going to be another decade before you just find like the 13th round tight end.

That's actually the number one guy. So, yeah, it's kind of like quarterback. Just getting a great one is probably better if we're being totally honest. because it sucks to just try to add like John Smith off the Steelers in week nine. Like that's just not fun. But yeah, we can go through the specific guys.

Before we do that, I just want to remind people, follow us on Instagram, Ringer Fantasy Football. Follow us on YouTube. Ringer Fantasy Football, TikTok, Ringer Fantasy. We're going to take a quick break and then we're going to go through all the tight ends for this season. This episode of the Ringer Fantasy Football Show is presented by Hyundai.

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Okay, let's get into our tight-end tiers for 2025 and just a reminder overall, the reason we do tears, because as much as everyone's obsessed with rankings, tears is the way we draft. I highly recommend you have tiers when you draft. Because, again, it's just a decision-making framework to just be able to eyeball it when you're on the clock and it's going tick, tick, tick down.

And you're like, oh, my God, uh, and it's like, okay, you have five receivers and five running backs here, and then, like, George Kittle is in a tier of his own. And then you're like, oh, wait, there's a massive gap between George Kittle and any of their player. I'll take George Kittle. And then it's like, you beat the buzzer. But then you come a rack around and you're like, wait,

one of the running backs I was thinking about it, the last pick is here again, great. And it's like, that's why it's so important to make tears. And also the process of doing it just kind of makes you think, wait, where is my personal line? line and what's the worst player I actually want is my number one running back? What is the worst player I'll accept as my quarterback? Wait, there's a lot of receivers I like just as much as these guys.

So it's a really helpful thing. So we're going to go through. We are going to decide what our tiers are as a show and where we delineate them on our rankings of fantasy football. Dotterriner.com. So with that said, I'm going to go through my takes on the tears. Craig and D.K. Have made their own.

I don't see theirs. And they're going to yell at me. we're going to figure him out. So without further ado, tier one at tight end for 2025 fantasy football. I called it guys who had more catches than Justin Jefferson last year. And that is Brock Bowers for the Raiders

and Trey McBride for the Arizona Cardinals. There are a couple ways you could do this. Frankly, it's just an argument whether George Kittal should be in this tier or if he's his own tier at number two. But starting with you, D.K., are those, there's so much to say about these guys, but did you have Trey McBride and Brock Bowers

as your top two tier guys. I did. And I called it the pure sex tier. And I had George Kittle in a separate own tier as well. I just think your sex. Bowers to be still ascending. Sexy. Yeah, still sex.

Both of these guys, Bowers and McBride, still ascending as players, you know what I mean? They're going into their prime still in positions where they're going to be either the number one or number two option in their offense on almost every game. I think with McBride, positive regression is coming. McBride to me is a great example of a guy who is kind of flying and not he's not flying under the radar,

but like he could have an all-time season if he just catches like eight touchdowns. You know what I mean? Because last year the touchdown thing was the big issue, really held him back. But he had 111 catches, which I think that number in itself is kind of flying out of radar. Which is one less than Brock Bowers,

but he did it in one less game. Well, on that note, the catches, the players who had the most catches last season, period. Number one was Jamar Chase. Number two was a. Monrae St. Brown. Number three was Brock Bowers. Number four is Tray McBride. They literally, those were the top four players and catches the whole season. But to your point, I met McBride at the touchdowns. Before last year, there literally

have been five players in the history of the NFL who had 1100 yards in a season and didn't catch more than two touchdowns. I have to imagine he's the only player ever to have over 110 catches in one touchdown. Catches has actually happened more. Really? One touchdown in over 110 catches? No way. Two. Oh, two, two, two. It's confusing because Tray McBride, he also says a rushing touchdown. That's happened many times, 110 catches, two touchdowns. That's crazy to me.

That one, because I think the 1100 yards is the spectacular. I mean, again, he had 500 yards for every touchdown. And what's even crazy is he was tied for second among all tied ends in the NFL and red zone targets. So what are the chances we look back on this season at Tray McBride just had three touchdowns again? Like, I actually, what do you think is more likely, Dekat? Shrey McBride has two touchdowns in week one, or he has three touchdowns on the season again. More likely he has two in week one. 100%.

Yeah. McBride is the easy one. I think they're, yeah, they're the top two guys. I agree with D.K., though, that, like, I do think McBride is kind of flying under the radar for somebody who maybe should be the number one overall tight end taken in fantasy. Right. It's pretty impressive in general that these guys were so good last year. They were the tight end two and tied in three in terms of fantasy points just behind George Kittal. and combined Brock Bowers and Tray McBride

had seven receiving touchdowns last year, which is as much as Zach Ertz had. Like they were the top two and three tight ends. They had seven touchdowns combined. Mark Andrews, who, for the Ravens, who most people cut last season, had 11 touchdowns in his final 12 games or something, which is more than these two guys combined.

So we have Brock Bowers overall. We have them 15th among players in Trade McBride 19th. And that's the thing I want to laser in on here because I think it's easy. The easiest thing in the world is to say Brock Bowers and Trade McBridey of your top two tight ends.

I think it's more important to be like where do people take them. The one thing I want to laser in on here is Brock Bowers. I have a bunch of Brock Bowers stats here that just blew my mind. But I wanted to point out that just basically, none of us disagree on where we rank among tight ends. But I will just say, D.K. is Brock Bowers 10th overall.

And Craig has Brock Bowers 18th or 19th. And I wanted it. And on one hand, that's still not that big of a difference. But it kind of is because DK is basically saying you're comfortable taking Brock Bowers at the end of the first round, even in a 10-team league or so. And Craig's kind of saying is more like toward the end of the second round.

And I wanted D.K. And I could see it both ways. But D.K., I wanted to ask you why you feel comfortable taking Brock Bowers over the other elite receivers like Malik neighbors for the giants. Nico Collins for the Texans. I'm on Rousie Brown for the Lions. I'm just curious why you have Bauer's 10th overall? Yeah, why would you do that? Yeah, idiot.

The fuck is wrong with you. I think it's. Defend yourself. It's about positional scarcity for me. I mean, you're looking at the number. Craig, you just said it. They're putting up elite receiver numbers. And these are like, I think, the only two guys that are going to do that at the tight end position.

You're going to have a huge advantage if you have one of these two guys at your tight end spot. There's a million receivers. I understand that not all the receivers are going to put up the numbers that you have with, you know, almond Ross St. Brown, Puka, Malik Navors, those guys in this range, like Drake London. But I just think the positional value, the positional bump that you get from these guys. I just want to have those guys in my lineup week every week because there's just, you can find receivers a little bit later who are going to also put up big numbers. But I don't know if you can do that with tight ends.

Like there's a handful of guys that might. But there's also a handful. There's also most of these guys. I'm like there's major question marks about every single one of them outside of the top like three or four. Are that makes sense? Then Craig, why do you have Brock Bowers 19th idiot?

I'll tell you. I think it's because of the opportunity cost. Well, I agree with D.K. that the positional scarcity is there. The opportunity cost of the guys you're not taking when you take Brock Bowers 10th overall, that means you're not taking Puka Nakua or a Monro, St. Brown, who last year put up 15 points a game.

Brock Bowers had an all-time season, he put up 12. And so I do think the ceiling of tight end is naturally lower. I mean, if you combine Brock Bowers with wide receivers, he was the 22nd overall score at those two positions combined. And you start more wide receivers. And with, you know, a lot of people are starting three wide receivers now. You have a flex position. Some people have two flex positions.

there are so many receivers that is true, but I think it makes more sense to focus on the positions you can start more of because they have higher ceilings than what tight end can bring you. If you get, you know, a Tucker Kraft who puts up nine points a game versus Brock Bowers who puts up 12 points a game,

that's very different than grabbing Amonra St. Brown who puts up 15 points a game and then filling your roster with, you know, take your shot at Khalil Shakirs and things like that. So I do think the opportunity cost at tightest, end is much, much higher, and you really need them to have a huge year to take them 10th overall. I go back and forth because you're right. Generally speaking, I think that the receiver is like the top of the receiver thing

is this year is so good and then it gets so flat because receiver is one of the easiest positions to predict year over year because it's like who's going to get, as long as everyone's healthy, like who's going to get targets, who's going to get the ball. Touchdowns are always wonky, but it's generally pretty easy to be like which elite receivers are going to get. That's basically the stickiest stat year every year is like targets, catches, all that stuff. stuff. And so you look at the top and it's like Nico Collins, Puka, Monra, Brian Thomas, like all these guys are great. But to D.K.'s point, there is something about just sticking

one of those, like Brock Bowers being about that good as a receiver and sticking him in your tight end slots like a cheat code. And the one thing I wanted to say about that. It feels nice. In the same way having a little quarterback is really nice, like not having to just deal with, like, I hope Dallas Goddard catches a touchdown is is kind of priceless. Have you ever seen the gentleman, the Guy Ritchie movie? Yeah. I love that movie so much. It's like my brother's favorite movie. But there's a scene where basically Colin Farrell's like a boxing coach and a bunch of the kids he coach is like fucked up with like basically like the British mafia basically.

And he goes and he has like the best apology I've ever seen. And he's like, I'm not going to do the accent because people get mad. But he's like, I can't make up for the headache, the energy, the time, the stress. And I'm like, that's how I feel taking Brock Bowers is like Brock Bowers makes up the time, the energy, the stress, the fucking headache. and it's like that is really what you're doing. But I think the difference is in the past, it kind of felt like you're not capitulating, but you're kind of,

there's a little wish casting sometimes that the tight end can kind of actually deliver on that, like when you're taking Mark Andrews 24th or overall a couple seasons ago. But I think the flip side is with Brock Bowers, I got to read you this list that I couldn't believe. So shout out to Ron Stewart, who's a great YouTuber.

And he had this list with Josh Norris at Underdog, who we love Josh Norris, go follow them on Instagram and everything. And it was basically the best, rookie seasons for past catchers of the last 15 years. And there's a funny thing, I know I'm just throwing out names now, but Adam Harstead is a great thing that basically receivers, it's kind of like ball don't lie. Like, if you're great as a rookie, the list of great rookie receivers is kind of just a list of great receivers. Like, it's like an 80, 90% hit rate if you had a great rookie year. And so I just, just fantasy full, this is points per game, full PPR.

We usually do half PPR, but for full PPR for points per game, rookies in the last 15 years, entering last season, the best players, ever were LSU guys. So O'Dell Beckham Jr., Jamar Chase, Justin Jefferson, Pooka Nukuwa, Michael Thomas, Mike Evans, Julio Jones. And so that's like five Hall of Famers. Brock Bowers is 10th.

Brock Bowers, where he would have been is like right by the, he's right behind Julio Jones on that list. Now, last year's class was crazy because Ladd McConkey, Malik neighbors, all those guys, like Brian Thomas, they slide in right there, which is insane. But the idea that Brock Bowers is on a rookie year points per game list with Julio Jones, who is legit, probably one of the four or five best receivers I've ever seen my entire life. The fact that he's a tight end, that he's a rookie, that he's a second year

player with a better quarterback. I, I, there is another level here with how good Brock Bowers could be. And if I agree that you start taking him 10th or 11th, I get a little squirley, but if Brock Bowers falls, so my number is 15, 16, pass to Von A. Chan, I am, I would take Brock Bowers over like Jonathan Taylor, Trey McBride, Drake London, even A.J. Brown, because I just, the idea that he could be like a Travis Kelsey, but he's so young to me is crazy. Yeah, I actually agree with everything Craig was saying in terms of just like the potential for opportunity cost.

But all those receivers that end up being like game or league winning type players are catching double digit touchdowns. I mean, if Brock Bowers with a way better quarterback this year catches 10 touchdowns, like he's going to be one of the most valuable players in all of fantasy. So obviously, that doesn't happen as often, I guess, at the tight end position, but it does happen.

And, you know, I mean, we saw, I think LaPorta had tennis, rookie season. Receiving touchdowns, all touchdowns, are pretty,

not random, but there's high variance in terms of, like, scoring touchdowns. There's only so many touchdowns in an NFL season, and teams spread the ball around. Weird stuff happens.

Like, the lions pass their freaking offensive linemen. So, I don't know, I just, yeah, I just want to,

bet on Bowers. I just think he's one of the best players, one of the best prospects we've ever seen at the tiny position and I just want to catch him as he's continuing to go up. Yeah. It's literally just scary because the Raiders are weird and he did it one time and that's kind of it. Yeah, like I think analytically taking him

10th is not the most sound decision. However, in my heart it is and it's just really fun. Yeah. But in theory, if you're starting two, three, potentially four wide receivers every week, you want more bites at those. So, well, and that's the the last thing I'd say is I think the most overrated thing in fantasy is do you get full point

perception or half. The short back of the napkin math is I'd say this. If your league starts two receivers each week in a flex. So if you're in a 10-team league and the starting roster spots are two wide receivers, Brock Bowers is more valuable. Yeah. Because there's only 20, 25 receivers starting every week. If you're in a 12-team league that starts three receivers, now you're closer to 40, maybe even

43-45 receivers playing. And if there's a flex position, most people are not starting tight ends at flex. Exactly. So it's even deeper. The difference between 25 starting, if two receivers are starting per team, that means like DK Metcalf could be the worst receiver starting in a give of the week. If it's like a 12 team league with three receivers, that means like Darnell Mooney is like starting every week.

So the supply and demand makes like Nico Collins more valuable. But if that, Brock Bowers is way more valuable in a two receiver league. So that's 100%. So check your roster settings because that is actually to me like, easily a tiebreaker for all this of where you should take him, whether it's 10th or 20th or whatever. And then, yeah, so McBride, where's your guys just line for where you take McBride? Because I have him basically, he's cleanly, like, my 21st player. And I almost think he's the cutoff for when I, if he's gone, I will take quarterbacks,

which I'm probably earlier on quarterbacks than anyone this year. But I'm like, if Trey McBride is like, Trey McBride is the top 20, 21 guys or so. And then I'm like willing to take Jill and Hertz. But McBride, as long as he's there, that's like the last player before I'll break the quarterback seal. Yeah, I have honestly, I have him and Brock literally back to back right after like the freak receivers. Basically right after like Drake London Malik neighbors, AJ Brown go, guys where I truly think they have like a legitimately realistic shot up finishing as the best water sheep in fantasy. Then so it's like end of the second round, mid to late second round. I think Trey and Brock should be neck and neck.

Again, I just can't. It's insane. Trey McBride had two touchdowns last year and he was the tight end three. Like if like just natural regression, even if he's not good at catching touchdowns, he'll probably have five or six. and if he has like a normal great tight end season for his skill level he'll have like seven to nine which would put him on a whole other level so i think they should be back to back although brock is way sexier okay d k did you know who which tight end was actually by points per game the number one tight end in fantasy football last year george kittle it was george kittle so you named your dog after

george kittle right yeah exactly sure did so tier two is just george kittle i don't think anyone belongs in it and i think it's easier to argue that george kittal should be in the tier above with bowers and trade McBride, then Kittle should be anyone else belongs to them. I think he's totally neat to you on his own. And I don't know. We could talk about him a lot, but basically we have George Kettle 30th overall. And I guess my question is just DKK, like, are we too low on him? It's possible.

I think here's how I would delineate like the Bowers and McBride versus George Kittle argument. Like Bowers, 25% target rate. McBride, 28% target rate for a tight end is incredible. That's exactly what you want. George Kittle last year, 18%. That means, what does that mean? That means he's relying on touchdowns. He had eight touchdowns.

But isn't the obvious argument like Debo Samuel is now on Washington. Brandon Ayukes, what would a John Lynch say? The GM said not anywhere close to a concrete timetable for a turn. Juan Jennings has already had a calf setback, not just the calf injury, but a calf setback for Joanne Jennings. Jacob, I never said, no to say cowing or coing, but like his amstring injury. Yeah. And Ricky Parasol just got off physically unable to perform less.

So it's like, isn't George Kittle? Like isn't there a serious chance? George Kittle is the number one receiver for this team this year. Yes. That's why I've been kind of all over Kittle. I think he's a good value right now. And I think his target rate is probably going to jump back up to like 22, 23%, just based on like everything you just said.

The changes that we've seen in the 49ers receiving group, I think also Kittle is going to play kind of like the de facto Debo role where they're getting him in the screen game. he's awesome at running after the catch he's awesome at breaking tackles that was basically what that was what he was known for early on in his career he went

he had like over 800 yards after the catch in one season so he's he's awesome in space get the ball in his hands and let him just go run through guys and I think that they're going to do that a little bit more and I think you know that's going to be kind of it's a supplement

to the run game right like you're getting the ball outside quickly letting your receivers block all the receivers in the 49ers roster half to block. That's like the prerequisite. That's why Brandon Ayyuk was in the doghouse early on in his career. So, yeah, I think Kittle, there's a chance. His target rate jumps pretty significantly this year because of all that,

all those changes, all that flux in the offense. And I don't know. Kittle doesn't seem like he's falling off to me at all. No, I agree. I think he does firmly belong in his own tier. I don't think he should be with Trey McBride and Brock Bowers. I mean, Kittle ran extremely hot last year. He caught 83% of his passes, which is the highest in his career by like 12%.

He has not had more than 100 targets in a season since 2019. And for reference, Bowers had and Trey McBride at 150. I mean, those guys are getting 50 more targets a season than George Kittle. And even if you look at after IUC went down mid-year, Kittle was still around 18%. And that was without McCaffrey. So it's like, I do think there's like a bit of a ceiling and he ran really, really hot last year. And I do think he's probably kind of in that three to five range in terms of like what is most likely. Top three to five is the position, I mean.

I like Kittle a lot. We have the only guy, yeah. DK, we have James Cook ranked over George Kittle. Would you rather have J. The clock is actually ticking down. Would you actually take George Kettle or James Cook? I mean, yeah, probably Kettle. Honestly, like chips down.

James Cook, I think, led the NFL last year in touchdowns. That's probably not going to happen again. It just depends, and it is, and it goes back to the discussion we just had, is like how you're building your roster in terms of where you want to take a tight end. But yeah, I think I probably lean Kittle there a little bit. It just gets tricky drafting tight ends, like in those top three rounds when you realize like, okay, sure, James Cook in a vacuum. It's like, oh, I would rather have George Kittle.

But then that means you're waiting a whole other round to get a wide receiver or a running back, which means you're missing out on a different wide receiver or running back. And when you're, when it's waiver is week six and you need a tight end, it is a lot easier to just like grab a guy who can get you 10 points than it is to fill in a running back. And so it gets tough. I think Kittles the last guy where I would be okay with feeling confident that he's going to make a difference. And then once you get into this next tier, it starts to become like whackable. So we have a massive drop-off.

And again, our rankings, you can go to fantasy football. Dottercom. Our rankings got a facelift and you can look up there. We also have a draft tracker. So as you're doing your drafts, you can actually these guys get crossed off. You can keep track of them. So obviously it's called a draft tracker. obviously you can keep tracking them so but use that and our rankings are there so you can

look at it they look really good on your phone too so if you want to look at it while you're listening to this you can pull it up small screen they look great on small screen great on the small screen and that is life now you just come home from work and you're like turn on turn off medium screen tired of looking at medium screens let's turn on big screen while it's like hey this weekend should we go should we go do big screen on Saturday night do massive screen yeah massive rectangle okay massive drop off to tier three my tier three is teaching Hawkinson for the Vikings, Sam LaPorter for the Lions.

And I actually added Mark Andrews for the Ravens, which I want to talk to about. And a reminder that when we do tears, basically the whole point of what we're talking about is any order of these guys, I don't really give a shit about within the order of the tiers. I have a ranking within the tiers, but I'm not going to argue with you if the rankings,

if you jumble them, but basically we're trying to figure out if these people belong. So I think Hawkinson and LaPorte are easy to put in a tier together. Mark Andrews is new. And I added him because today, Isaiah likely broke a bone in his foot. And so Isaiah likely, he's the other tight end

in the Baltimore Ravens, is probably, miss about six weeks. I think that's a huge deal because honestly, Mark Andrews, the biggest impediment to his playing time is that Isaiah likely is also great.

He's an awesome receiving tight end. He's younger, rotates in. The idea that Isaiah likely is a foot injury. It's a foot, he's getting foot surgery in August. The idea that he'll just come back, one, just cardio and conditioning,

but also the idea that he'll just come back and be an elite 100th percentile of his athleticism of foot surgery is, That's just not how it goes. I don't know if there's data, but I would love to see the history if people got foot surgery in August

and needed less than three months to get back to whoever they were. So I think Mark Ganges is firmly in this tier now. And again, he was horrific at the beginning of last season. But Mark Hanger's had a car crash in the way to the facility. And frankly, the Ravens, what was the term they used?

They said nothing structurally. I think, yeah, I think they said, he didn't injure anything structurally. He has no structural damage. He didn't break any bones. Yeah, yeah. So we just kind of took them Not doing so great.

Right now his internal organs are a little bit messed up But no broken bones. So we took them at his word and then he was terrible and everyone's like, Oh, what's going on? We're like, He was like the poster child of the burn book last year, Mark King. Yeah. Because people were wanted to cut him.

And he had multiple games, I think, with zero points. Yeah. Maybe because he had been in a car crash weeks earlier. And so then he had 11 touchdowns in his final 12 games. So he should he should probably be our tight end four. Do you think he should be there over hockey? Probably. Oh, I think so. I think Leporta and Andrews are over Hawkinson personally. Andrews was the fifth best tied end over the second half of the season. That was with likely playing. And I know he ran hot with touchdowns, but like he's becoming one of my favorite picks in fantasy.

One, because the ick of the lasting memory of Mark Andrews is his dropping the two-point conversion in the playoffs against the bills, which is brutal. And last year, he was also coming off a really nasty ankle injury, you know, and the car crash as well. So I still think, I mean, this offense is like he is the reds. If they're throwing the ball, he's the red zone guy. They have Zay Flowers. I guess they have DeAndre Hopkins. They've shot Bateman. But like Mark Andrews is the guy that Lamar trusts in the red zone.

He consistently scores a lot of touchdowns. Prior to last year, he was a tied in four, three, and one. He was like the only guy who could take down Travis Kelsey the last five years. He's 30 years old, no likely. And I think he has like a little bit of bad reputation right now because of that the dropped pass. So I kind of love him. Usually you don't want to go for like mid-round tight ends. It's usually like the worst spot to grab them.

But I do kind of like Mark Andrews. I mean, yeah, Lamar has a very long and consistent history of feeding his tight end, especially Mark Andrews, particularly Mark Andrews. And I think with Hawkinson and Laporta, we have major question marks with these guys, right? Like, Leporta might be the number three receiver on his team, not the number two receiver. It could be Amun Ra, Jameson Williams, maybe even throw Jemir Gibbs. in there. I think Jemir Gibbs got close to the amount of targets that Leporta had last year. And so with Hawkinson, we don't really know. Obviously,

not rookie quarterback, but first year quarterback in terms of starting in J.G. McCarthy. And then you got Justin Jefferson, Jordan Addison, who's going to be suspended for a little bit, but he'll be there most of the season. And then Hawkinson, assuming he's healthy, he's probably going to be the number three guy most of the time. So with Andrews, he's probably going to, don't you think he'll finish second on the team? in targets, if not first? Well, I think he's the number one guy in the red zone, and his quarterback is like a yearly MVP.

And then T.J. Hawkinson is probably the third guy on his team, catching passes from a rookie. But yeah, no, I mean, I think Andrews is definitely going to be the number two target getter after Flowers. I think we'll get more targets than Bateman. But to your point, yeah, Zayflawers is not a red zone guy. It's like the red zone is Derek Henry, and then it, you know, it's probably going to be marked Andrews.

I think the thing is Lamar through 41 touchdowns last year, and that's probably going to come down a lot because they've had a crazy touchdown. Yeah, but look at the years before that, Andrews was even better. That's true. So, yeah, I think overall, the guy, I wanted to love T.J. Hawkinson coming in the season because he's another guy who had an injury and was underrated. He towards ACL the end of 2023 and return to mid-20204 and then wasn't back. But then I think Hawkinson was himself again at the end of the year. And the numbers don't really bear that out.

But like, I saw it, like T.J. Hawkinson toward the end of the year. And this is, we see this all the time of the ACL recovery. Guys are back on the field. And people are like, oh, cool. They're back. But just because you're back lowercase B doesn't mean you're back like capital, capital letter B. Like we all the time people can use. And I'm back.

Like literally there's a gap where your mind needs to learn to trust your leg again. Like your mind is withholding you giving full effort and everything. And athletes have to learn that just there's an adjustment period. We see this all the time that people like overrate with a player immediately returns. They suck. They're like, fuck this guy. And then the guy gets back to his prior forum and people like all the time. So Hawkinson, I look at him.

On one hand, I'm like, I want to believe. And then on the other hand, I'm like, Like, well, Justin Jefferson's the number one, and Jordan Addison's the number two. And Hawkins is just the third guy for a rookie quarterback. But now I'm like, well, Addison's going to miss two or three games for sure. And then Justin Jefferson. Hammy?

Well, yeah, when Justin Jefferson missed half the season a couple of years ago with hamstring injury. Tor his hamstring. When Judge Henson pulled hammy. No, we're not. We're doing tears. It sounds too whimsical. But Jefferson has this pulled hamstring right now. But the last time this happened when Justin Jefferson was out a couple years ago,

that stretch, T. Hawkinson was on like a 1,300-yard pace. Yeah. When Justin Jefferson was out. Like, he was the number one guy. So part of me is almost worried. I'm going to galaxy brain myself and to be like, but I saw T.J.

Hawkinson with my own eyes. And now I'm statistically being gaslit into, but his ceiling's low. But I'm like, well, Justin Jefferson's hurt right now. If Justin's out, T.J. Hawkinson is probably the best bet to join Bowers McBride and Kittle as a top four tight end because every game that Justin Jefferson were to miss,

Hawkinson's right there with like Trey McBride. to me and George Kittles. So I, again, he's, it's weird because Hawkinson's almost like a Dallas Goddard where it's like, well, if one of the receivers gets hurt, he could be really good. But like, that's also just a bizarre way to play fantasy football is like, yeah, I'll take a T.J. Hawkinson, 67th because what if the coolest player in the NFL gets injured in Justin Jefferson? I'm like, I don't, you know what I mean? So I don't really think I want to target T.J. Hawkins in that way, which is too bad.

But the other thing here to mention here, and I don't know if this means anything going forward, but J.J. McCarthy did show, and I kind of think there is a little bit of a, like, tight end, apart from like the elite tight ends, the other good tight ends and fantasy are with quarterbacks that like throwing over the middle of field and like throwing to their tight ends, right? Like going back, you know, the Russell Wilson's of the world,

you're not going to get a big tight end season out of that guy most of the time because he just doesn't really like throwing over the middle of field where the tight ends are typically kind of like wandering about, lumbering oafs. grazing in the middle of the field just wandering about aimlessly DK holding both these things of like Titans are lumbering oaths also they're all

really athletic is like my I'm saying the elite ones are not lumbering else Siphons but anyway going back to the last two seasons that J.J. McCarthy started at Michigan Colson Leveland was prolific relative to the amount of like throws that they were making that offense of it was a run

heavy like low volume passing offense but Colson Leveland and like he more than doubled any other receiver on the team last year. And the year before that, he was one of the team's top receivers. So I think J.J. McCarthy very clearly comfortable throwing to the tight end position, like pushing the ball up the seams. That's kind of one of the things you notice when you were scouting him. And so maybe there's something there in terms of just like

J.J. McCarthy is the guy that likes to target his tight ends. I don't know if that's like enough to really bank on, but it is something that I find interesting. I just Googled McCarthy height trying to get J. I couldn't remember if he was six through six. 262. And then I got Joseph McCarthy Heights, the senator. McCarthyism? Yeah. It's unclear how tall Joseph McCarthy was. But anyway, just want to let you. If you could find that out, that'd be great. Yeah, now I'm, I'll figure out. Pins and needles about this. Next tier here. This one, I kind of just labeled it as like obvious upside with obvious flaws.

And it's just kind of the rest of the guys that would be starting tight end. So I have Travis Kelsey for the chiefs who the upside is he's Travis Kelsey. The downside is Travis Kelsey. The downside is Travis Kelsey's 36. And if the chiefs won the Super Bowl, he was definitely going to ever tire. And then I have David and Joku as our number eight tight end who legit top tier tight end at times, but also he plays on the Browns. And then number nine, I have Evan Ingram, who two years ago had the second most catches ever for a tight end at the time. But then also 114 catches. Second most ever catches for 10. The quietest 140 catch season from a tight end I can remember. And yet he's 30. Just had the worst season of his career. Sean, we don't know exactly know what's going to go on there. And then I have Tucker Kraft for the Packers.

He's probably genuinely one of the best all around tight ends. He's probably a top five, top six all around tight end in the. blocking, receiving everything. And yet the Packers are just a weird team because Matt Lafleur is not, you know, we would say Mike McDaniels like a pass it to the Italians coach where he's like, I'm going to get my best player as the ball and figure out how. And Matt Lafleur is the opposite under the spectrum where the Packers are just like, we're going to out run, we're going to get people open and like no one's necessarily

getting a huge percentage of the offense. So I have all those guys in one group. That's Tucker Kraft on Green Bay, Evan Ingram and Denver, David and Jokko and the Browns and Travis Killsuit the Chiefs. Is that the same group you guys had, Greg? You're nodding. I have the exact same tier, yes. I am getting a little bold here

and I have Colston Loveland In this tier Yeah really I actually just changed my mind I Colson Loveland preparing for this episode I have talked myself into Colson Loveland and then this week I was like I am over my skis I'm curious

Why you think Colson Lovelin should be this tier I mean look where is he on our rankings right now It's not like it's a huge opportunity cost Where you're drafting him I'm just like I really like the upside I didn't even have him in the next tier Is that bad I don't know if it's bad necessarily

I'm probably like above consensus on him but I'm just kind of excited about what he's going to do in this in this offense there's already kind of I don't know if a drumbeat necessarily quite yet but there has been quite a bit of hype coming out of training camp he's already running with the ones seems like he's having really good days his shoulders doing great apparently according to all reports I've seen

which was immobilized when we saw him right he's coming off of a shoulder injury so that's obviously something you know um The shoulder's doing great. The shoulder that was not able to move. It sounds like I asked like, DJ, DK, how's your uncle doing? He's doing great. Shoulders doing great.

The nail comes out next week. I don't know. Like I've said, maybe I'm over my skis a little bit on this. Because I think you could take Jake Ferguson and feel pretty good about it. He's another guy that Deck Prescott always likes to target his tight ends. Jake Ferguson just got a big contract. I'm pretty out on Tucker Kraft. It's not that I don't think he's a good player, but like Tucker Craft did what he did last year.

and it was inconsistent and, you know, unreliable weekend and week out. And now, and now they're getting Luke Musgrave and Matthew Golden into that offense. I'm like, no, thanks. I just don't want to have to like, you know, it's just going to be back and forth. Who's going to be the number one target in this offense any given week? And then I think, so basically maybe it's just like I, you know, there's a classic thing like anybody, but one of these annoying guys, like the new shiny toy is what you gravitate. gravitate to, but I'm like, in that group, I'd rather have like Tyler Warren or, of course,

Colson-Levelin and just hope one of those guys like is awesome. Just to stress, I think there's a bigger gap in how you guys have ranked, like, Craig and D-K, you guys have a bigger gap on ranking Colson-Levelin than any single player in our entire rankings, like, to be clear about this. D-K, you have them as a top 100 player. Yeah. Craig basically is like, I don't even know if I draft Colson-Levelin. You have them, like, 160th.

I think both of you are pretty fucking extreme. I have tempted myself to 126. for Colson Loveland overall. Yeah, maybe I should be closer to that. I think YouTube meeting in the middle will be super chill because here's where I've come to with Colson Loveland. The trap I realized that I fell into it. And I realized like two days ago, I was like, this is what I've been thinking.

And to degree, this is true. Ben Johnson was the offensive coordinator in Detroit. And under Ben Johnson, Sam Leporta as a rookie tight end out of Iowa, Sam Leporter caught 10 touchdowns his rookie year, one of like literally five useful rookie tight end seasons over the last 15 years. Ben Johnson coaxed that out of Sam LaPorteur. Now Colson Loveland has been drafted really high. Colson Lofton drafted as a top 12 pick in the NFL draft.

And so Colson Loveland will probably be the Sam LaPorter role, kind of similar guy. And Ben Johnson is the head coach in Chicago. Maybe Colson Loveland could have 10 touchdowns as a rookie. Dude, he was the 10th pick. It's crazy to think about that. I mean, I wasn't even that high on him like in the draft, but I mean, the 10th pick. That's pretty crazy. Just wait until we get to Cal Pitts.

Wait until you find that when he was drafted. I know. But here's the thing, D.K. I think the, this is what I realized, the argument for Colson Loveland being Sam Leporta, it really banks on the 10 touchdowns, doesn't it? Like, it really banks on the 10 touchdowns, I think. And here's what I realized. Sure, yeah, yeah.

And this is the epiphany I had this week. I think that sometimes in fantasy we get confused because I think that's accurate. Ben Johnson will use Colson Loveland in the Sam Leporter role. I think that's probably accurate. The Sam Leporter role in Chicago is not going to be a fraction as valuable. where it will literally be a fraction as valuable as in Detroit. Because the year Sam Laporte had 10 touchdowns, the Lions were third in scoring.

The Lions had the second most passing yards in the entire NFL that year. Literally, that year that Sam LaPorte had 10 touchdowns, the Lions had 4,500 passing yards. The Bears have literally never had a quarterback hit 4,500 passing yards in the history of the franchise. And they're like the oldest team in the NFL. The Bears have been around 100 years. The Bears invented the quarterback.

The position was invented by the Bears. They've never had 4,000 yards in the season. So I think what I realized was if Ben Johnson makes Chicago average this year, that would be like an incredible leap forward for this unit. And I realized that that is actually Coast and Loveland ceiling to me as he's the third option behind DG Moore and Adunzei on hopefully an average offense. I mean, add in Luther Burden and Cole Commet. Do you want to talk about you're worried about Tucker Craft's role? There's a lot going on in Chicago. And we don't even know if Chicago's good.

We at least know Green Bay is a good offense. And so I think you're, and so overall, do, DK, I do agree that I think Lovellon's an interesting dart throw, but I think the top take him is like, I think he's kind of going, I think he's kind of going where Brock Bowers was going last year. And like, Brock Bowers was like the best college tight end. I mean, that's fair. He was also taken earlier in the draft than Brock Bowers, for what it's worth. Not a lot, but I just, yeah, I'm probably over my skis on it on this guy.

But where I agree with you is like long term. Like, if you're playing in a dynasty league, I think Colson Loveland is a fantastic pick. and I do think sometimes it's hard not to get a little prematurely excited about a guy you know is talented on a team you think will be good for a guy who you feel very confident will have a fantastic career and you're just like I wanted to start right now but tight end historically it's like there have been these pops Brock Bowers and Leporta is pretty rare and so but the but here's the thing I'm also talking about says in my mouth because I'm higher on D.K than D.K. and Tyler Warren the tight end in Penn State who went to the cults. I'm higher on the D.K. I'm higher on the D. deacon him and I'm probably too high but I actually think if there's a player that's going to lead the team in targets or catches or whatever I kind of think Tyler Warren has a chance to just be better than Michael Pittman or Josh Downs as the number one

Even nursing and injury right? That guy's always hurt Michael Pittman kind of always That sucks. Josh Downs is 5'8 and I'm looking at it and I think Tyler Dang drive by Sorry it's the fucking NFL. Is he 5 8? No I think I was No I think he's 5 to 10

I'm gonna say that's such classic like you're trying to lead people 5-9-171. It's like 5-5 or something, so he's irrelevant. Should we have that as a filter on our rankings next year? Just have, like, height, like hinge, and you can just sort out people who are under 5-10. I mean, it's just like real life.

Like whenever you're trying to convince somebody to something, you add an inch or subtracted, it's just support your argument. The... In England, we were talking about how in the people, the metric system, the number was, what is it, 175? Yeah.

Centimeters or whatever? Yeah. I don't remember. But their numbers are a little different. It's like 5-10. Right. Because she's $1.75. I forget what it is.

Anyway, so on the tight ends thing, I have a lot of thoughts of Tyler Warren. But I get back to this, well, just the button up the Tyler Warren thing. I think I like the dart throw Tyler Warren, not in this tier, but I like the dart throw in Tyler Warren just because quietly one of the most prolific tight ends ever. And I think people think he's a blocking guy because he has long air like George Kittle, but he's not.

I mean, Tyler Warren, I think he's going to be a great receiver. So anyway, I don't think they belong in this tier, though. I think Kelsey and Joku, Angram Kraft, D.K., if I made you pick one of these, guys at cost, who are you picking? Clearly not Kraft. You hate it. Sorry, say the list again.

So we have Travis Kelsey around 87th. We have David and Joku, 93rd, Evan Angram 95th, Tucker Craft 105. You clearly hate Tucker Craft. Well, I don't hate Tucker Kraft. No, I think you do. You hate him. You hate his fucking guts. The Packers offense burned me last year in terms of just like, you know, who's

going to like. But Jordan Love heard his MCL in week one. And then they had like the lowest pass rate in the entire NFL. I think I heard again in week 10. He hurt his groin. It doesn't change the fact that. None of the receivers on the team had more than like 18% target rate. Like it's just not consistent.

It's not reliable week in and week out. It's just really frustrating from a fantasy point of view. Good offense though. And I think George loves a good quarterback. Yeah, what he finished? Middle of the pack. Anyway, yeah, I think I'll take the guy in the Browns. Um, I don't know.

Of that group, high fits, I guess I gravitate to Njoku. Um, because if Joe Flacco starts, he could be the tight-ed one. I don't know. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, I, I, The ultimate arresting development of just the, you know, it's never worked for anyone, but it could work for us. You're like, oh, yeah, take players and good teams. I'll take a Joku, though.

Brown's going to be the worst team of football. I will say the fact that David and Joke had five games that Joe Flacco two years ago was just the number one tight ed in fantasy for that stretch, especially considering how much the Brown's offense was contorted to fit Deshawn Watson, which Tafansky wants this like under center play. Play action back to the defense. And Deshawn Watson is one of those like, you know, he wanted, he wanted to see the, it just wasn't able to play that way. also just unbelievable. He's just been exiled like a pariah with multiple Achilles injuries and he's just like not even at the building anymore.

And so now you have Joe Flacco again running a real Stofansky offense. But even last year I kind of couldn't, I almost for memory hold this where after Deshawn Watson had the Achilles injuries so just the second half of the season, David and Joku was just straight up a top five tight end.

The top five tied end second half of the year was just Trey McBride, Brock Bowers, George, Jonu Smith actually, and George Kittle and then David and Joke was five. And I'm like, I don't, Yeah, I agree with you. I would take Injoku at all these guys. I think Adjoku at cost is probably the best value to Cal.

Because someone's going to take Kelsey really high. Someone's going to take Kelsey like he didn't want to retire this year. And in Joku, people would be like, yeah, Brown suck. But I agree. I think a joke actually probably is the most upside. What was the stat you gave, Hyfitz, about him being top five? Was that the second half of the season? That was, so Deshaun Watson tour as a kid.

So remember the first seven weeks, DeShon Watson, they were the best worst offense in Brown's history, which is incredible. Like, think of all the bad. quarterbacking. Watson's first seven games were the worst quarterbacking ever. It's a wild stat. Austin Gale who, we remember, had the most incredible stats on this. And Austin, Deshawn Watson was the worst quarterback

basically since like Tim Tebow or Marcus Russell, the first seven games. It was unplayable. And then Deshawn Watson towards Achilles after that. And Joe was like a top five tight end. What week did he tear Zakili? I believe week seven. You don't even know just straight up. He was fifth.

Like if you include the games with Dishon Watson, he was David and Joku who's still fifth last year. There you go. I'm looking at his numbers now because this does get memory hold a little bit. I kind of feel like I don't remember this a ton. I'm just going to, here's his half pvr points per game after week seven. 18, 14, 5, 14, 3, 21, 13, 10. Like he was putting up big numbers for a tight end in particular.

I kind of feel like, and this is how I had it and why I said it gravitate to him, but I had him in his own tier, slightly above Kelsey Ingram, and then I had some other guys in my tier, but that Kelsey Ingram, sort of the veteran guys that have done it before tier. And another reason that I really like him too is just because, and he's kind of like Ingram is like, there's a lot of catch and fall down tight ends. Like, and those guys will get, like, Zach, he'll get you points because he's always getting open, but he's not going to add a bunch after the catch. And Joku was really good after the catch. He's almost like, He's not in Kittles' tier, but he's sort of just below that in terms of his ability to run off catch, break tackles, not a lumbering oaf.

Not a lumbering oaf. Unlike Travis Kelsey. Now lumbering off. Man, how old is in Joku? He's like 30. This is like his ninth or tenth season. He was drafted in 29. The Browns had three first run picks in 2017, 2018.

He was the Baker year. Dude, he was drafted in 2017. That's wild. Yeah. And he's 29. Anyway, I just kind of, I think, gravitate you in Joku. The Brown's offense is a mess. But I don't know.

So in four months, Craig, I've just come from the future. Do you think that you're either going to feel really smart for plugging David and Joku as a good tight end over Travis Kelsey? Or do you think you're going to feel really dumb where you're like, take the guy on the Browns over take the guy on the Chiefs who does match your bombs? Probably dumb. I don't want to watch the Browns. I don't want anything to do with the Browns. I don't want to have to root for the Browns and root for anybody on the Browns to play well. It just sounds awful.

They're going to, they're projected to score the least points in the least. league. It's just, when you say it like that, I'm like, Kelsey, meanwhile, Kelsey, miscast is the number one guy on the Chiefs offense last year, but if the Chief's offense overall is better, and then Kelsey's job is just like sit in zones as Xavier worthy, and Marquis Brown and he's going to say, like, he doesn't need to have 14,000 yards again for Kelsey. You just need him to like eke out 11 touchdowns, and you're like golden. And you're like, yeah, he's Travis Kelsey. Of course he can. He can get open in the end zone. Yeah, I mean, she Rice also like might miss the first six games of the season. And look,

Kelsey's obviously not the same guy. he was fourth in targets per game last year. Like there's still... And that's the thing is, but you're getting him later than he's ever gone, basically, in 10 years. So that's the thing with Kelsey. It's like he's not the same guy, but it's not the same price. I was going to mention Kelsey, though slow and dangerous behind the wheel, he can still serve a purpose. I think there's kind of this impression that Kelsey is just not a part of their

offense anymore. And he just kind of like a forgotten piece. He's just there for vibes and everything. But he ran a route on 95% of the team's dropbacks last year, which is like a really good number. Not elite, but a really solid, solid number. It's not like they were, you know, quote unquote, saving him for the playoffs. You and your fancy, how many yards, how many times he ran a route? Here's that old school stat for you. He was 12th in catches in the entire league. Yeah. He had 97. 97 catches. Like 90, one catch less than DJ Moore. Literally he basically, the reason he wasn't a superstar in fantasy was because he only had three touchdowns. And if you look at the last like seven seasons

before that. Five, 12, nine, 11, five, 10, eight, like maybe this

year he just goes back up to 10. Like, it wouldn't be that surprising to see him catch a bunch of touchdowns this year again. He's,

he's older. He's washed, but like, I mean, he knows. I also think he's, not washed. He's slower.

He's slow and dangerous behind the wheel. I think he's also probably lost a little weight this year. And I don't mean that like he was fat, but I think older,

what happens with older players is you have to cut weight as you get older for your knees, your joints, like your knees, your ankles, everything, just kind of like, that's, you have to have muscle in your 20s,

and then you kind of have to cut it a little to maintain any kind of speed, or else you start picking up and accruing lower body injuries. And so I think, based on his Instagram's with Taylor Swift, I do think he actually has cut a little muscle. I want to throw us out of you guys, just because I pulled this up.

We were talking about David and Joku after week seven. So from week seven to week 17, so week seven on, David and Joku average 12.8 points per game in fantasy. Brock Bowers, 12.9 points per game in fantasy in that stretch. So I just think it's like the impression

like obviously we love Bowers. Bowers is a freak and we're going to go all in. I'm going all in on Bowers. But like in Joka does kind of feel like a forgotten guy. These other conversations where we look back and we're like we sound so smart right now and then we're talking and then we like look back and we're like damn we've been on the fucking Raiders

and Brown's tight ends. What the fuck? Right. It's week three and Dylan Gabriel's back there just seeing ghosts. and you're like, this is. That's the thing of the joke. Yeah, we didn't even like, is Joe Flacco really going to be quarterback for this team?

Because the whole point, that is the last thing in Djoku. I think you're right, D.K., I like him the most of a situation. But to your point, the entire thing is premise that Joe Flacco is going to stand in the pocket and get the ball out quick. And at Craig's point,

Dylan Gabriel, who is actually like 5 foot 9 out of 4 foot 10, 11. I guess I'm biased against the other 6 foot quarterbacks, but like he's 5 foot 10 quarterback going to just be running for his life, not throwing to David and Joku. Yeah, whenever he plays. The next tier here I have, unless anyone else has thoughts of those guys.

No. I called this, I mixed everyone together. And I called it thirst traps and family men, which maybe that's a little convoluted. But I think these are crazy high upside tight ends that have crazy high upsides and crazy high downsides. And it's like you look at them and you get kind of horny. And you're like, oh my God, Kyle Pitts, Dalton Kincaid, Tyler Warren, Colson Loveland. What if these guys were great? And then like you're going to get post-game clarity when they have two catches for 20.

yards and you're like, I'm an idiot. And it's all guys like that. And then also just guys like Dallas Goddard or Jake Ferguson where just family, like go home to your wife, guys. Where it's just perfect. There's no chance they're going to be the number one tight end in fantasy. But like probably you won't have to cut them and replace them. So I have this entire tier is Jake.

The tight end 10. Yeah, exactly. Like, oh wow, tight in eight. Cool. Like small misses small hits and then big misses big hits. So it's Jake Ferguson for Dallas. Colston Lovelland for the Bears. who's a thirst trap.

Dalton Kincaid for the Bills was a thirst trap. Dallas got it for the Eagles, who's, you know, family guy, Carl Pitts for the Falcons, Tyler Warren for the Colts. I had them as one,

I didn't know how to like, they shouldn't all be together, but we are ranking them that way. And I think that it's almost philosophical of like, what should you be doing at that spot? Should you be trying to hit a home run or should you just be like,

you know, collecting someone you don't have to think about. I think when you're this late, you should always be going for the home run. Like, you can find a guy. You can add Brent and Strange and Week. six and he'll probably get you nine points

in any given week. Like, you should honestly be shooting for dudes like as it pains me to say it, but like Kyle Pitts or like Dalton Kincaid. He was like a high draft pick on an offense that doesn't have a star. It's year three. He's underperformed the first few years. But like that, as opposed

to somebody like Jake Ferguson, who is going to be like the number three option on a good offense who will get you like five catches, 50 yards. Like there's no world in which Jake Ferguson has like 90 catches for 1,200 yards and nine touchdowns. In theory, Kyle Pitts and Don Kincaid, that's more possible. So I feel like when you're in this range, you got to just start shooting for first.

So, Dekid, do you agree that the thirst traps, even though they will probably all individually fail? The thirst trap should probably just be 11, 12, 13, where it's like in whatever order you want, Kyle Pitts, Dalton, Kincaid, Tyler Warren, Colson, Loveland, in whatever order you want, just because if they hit, it's a huge hit. Give me one. Give me one. A big one. Give you, I like to go for the different, the potential difference maker here rather than, like,

the floor option, right? Yeah. And yeah, so I agree with everything that Craig just said there. So there you go. So yeah, I agree. So if I made you pick, we talked earlier about Colson Loveland, Tyler Warren. If I had to pick one, I would actually, I think actually at this point, I think Tyler Warren is the guy just because I think there's a better chance Tyler Warren just that

even the Colts suck, a number one type, number one option being on the table, I think is something I want. If I made you pick DK between at cost and we have them overall. We have Kyle Pitts, the ban of our existence, 126th overall. And we have Dalton Kincaid like 119th overall, which at that point, whatever. It's also July 30th to move. If I made you pick like, hey, you're going to draft one of those guys, stick them in your lineup in week one.

Which one of those guys actually do you want to, not week one? That's not the point. Which one do you actually want to bet on this season? Kincaid or Pitts? Kincaid. Even though you guys are definitely like starting. to convince me a little bit on Pitts. I just, again, don't want to go down that road again.

Can Kate and Pitts have some similarities to them? Because they're both, I think, limited, they're schematically limiting the play callers that they play for. Even though the teams that they, you know, play for shows them very, very highly. A lot of times it's like maybe there's a disconnect between front office and head coach or play caller. Maybe there's play callers that come in and change, like you can change the offense. maybe just the play call.

This is like the Arthur Smith thing, just doesn't think he's any good. And maybe he's not any good. So I don't know. I think with Kincade, he's such a poor blocker to this point in his career that he's limiting schematically. Yeah, I can't stress that enough.

He was drafted so the bills could run out two more tight end sets and run more. And they've been able to do that. But Kincaid has not helped. Like, he hasn't unlocked the receiving game the way they thought he would. Right. And but at the same time,

I still believe in his talent. I think he's just been, he's had a lot of injuries that have kind of held him back in. So my hope is still, and I don't have like really high hopes for this, but I do have kind of, you know, just holding, keeping the candle burning a little bit for Kincaid that he can stay healthy and start to show, you know, some of the reasons that they drafted him that highly. And with Kyle Pitts, it's just like, yeah, that'd be great if he did it. But I'm not going to, I don't want to bet on that again this year. And just worth noting. So we're recording this Wednesday, July 30th, maybe some, but Kincaid did tweak his knee a couple days ago. And he had an injury all last year.

And so it's probably just general sort of that. That makes me sad. Well, Kyle Pitts also set a foot thing in June. Like, you know, there's a reason that these guys are freaking headaches. But to, to, uh, to D.K.'s point about Kincaid before the injury, he was, like, it was starting to come together a little bit. Like, he was on pace for 102 targets, which would have been like fifth amongst all tight ends. He was eighth in usage. So, like, and then he got hurt and then things got weird.

But like, you know. on a more traditional trajectory of how long it takes tight ends to take off, like perhaps he was on his way. The argument against him is like the bills were the number one offense. I think they scored the most points last year in the league. And so it's like it almost like they're fine the way things are now. Yeah. Yeah.

So I think he kind of got market corrected by Khalil Khalil Shakir. Yeah. Who they just paid. The argument for Kincaid to be as simple, which is the bills are kind of banged up. And again, I don't want to speculate too much because we're going to release this episode five days from now. But like, I mean, the bill is open camp with a bunch of five receivers and two tight ends banged up. They're like the 49ers of the east where it's just like everyone, I don't even know who Josh Allen was throwing to on the first two days of camp. So I,

you know, we'll see. You know, he was thrown to who we hadn't talked about, Josh Palmer. Josh Palmer. Let me read a couple of, can I read a couple quotes? A couple quotes about JP in Buffalo. Sure. Go ahead. Has been a magnet for Josh Allen early in camp. Early indications are he'll be a staple on offense and could be sneaky candidate to lead the wide receiver room in snaps. D.K. Let me ask you a question. How old do you think Josh Palmer is?

Just knee jerk. How old is he? 25. You're right. He's 25 years old. Josh Palmer. Going into the prime of his career right now, baby. He is.

Just saying, get the fuck out. I'm just saying. No, fuck that. This is funny because I like love Shakir, too. Like, he's so fun to watch. The bill. A report today. Hold on.

This is from a Bill's. reporter. Josh Palmer has made quite the impression during his time with the bill. Cerebral player, somebody who seems to take pride in every rep he takes. Think this is the guy who can help carry this entire past catching group to Greater Heights. Wow. Cerebral is what people say. Yeah. They like him personally, but

don't have anything to say about a self-like profile. Yeah. Okay. I will say, though, I do want to just say, I know Kyle Pitts. I know I'm like a caricature now where I'm like talking about Kyle Pitts and Anthony Richardson's values this year. But on it, Kyle Pitts is another by the guy because again, we're talking about 125th, 130th overall.

These are also guys that, like, you might cut. Look, Pitts is the guy to draft in a later on. He is the guy. There's Tyler Warren, Colston Loveland, and Kyle Pitts. And here's why Kyle Pitts. There's overlapping reasons why he could. And again, if Kyle Pitts starts the year and sucks, that's fine. Cut him.

Like when he was going really high, like 80th last year, that kind of sucked with he had to cut him. But Kyle Pitts, the difference is he's going 40 spots later than you could have got him last year. And yet, it's a better situation because Michael Panix just rips the ball. man. Michael Pennings throws it so far down. Grip and rip it, baby. Michael Penix is gripping and rip it.

Like, the only guy that threw it further downfield than Pennix last year was Anthony Richardson, who was crazy, irresponsibly throwing it deep. Pennix supported in college, I mean, he was ripping the ball downfield to a Dunezay and Jalen McMillan and Jailen Pope. Like, Pennix fucking tosses it around the yard. At Kyle Pitts, that's actually kind of been the problem is Kyle Pitts isn't really a tight end. He's a big receiver who kind of has just been kind of doing wind sprins. He runs downfield. He's running deep.

But, like, Kyle, the thing I'll say about Kyle Pitts, I, again, I think that there are questions, not about professionalism, maturity, but like, kind of. And I think, frankly, I don't know if he, between rehab, injuries, all this things, like rehabilitation, not like he went to rehab or anything. But I'm just saying, sure, injury rehab. Yeah, he's just like, whatever to lose. Yeah. No, nothing. But I think what I'm saying of Kyle Pitts. You guys don't remember that?

From what? He's spound and down. He goes, rehab. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I hurt my nose. So good. Show is incredible. Shout out to that bar in Fort Myers

where the show is just playing in a loop in a bathroom at all time. Kyle Pitts is in a contract year. And again, not everyone knows football, but a lot of people like money. So that's always motivating. The quarterbacks,

we never talk about Kyle Pitts this way. I'm not making excuses. He has sucked. He has been a problem. But he did play with Marcus Mariotta, the year he literally quit on the team. Desmond Ritter, when Arthur Smith has a passion project

to make Desmond Ritter the quarterback, Kirk Cousins, who actually made Kyle Pitts a top four tight end for October last year. And then Kirk Cousins got injured and was unable to move or throw to his right for like an entire month. And so you have Kirk Cousins off the Achilles, Ritter, Moriota, and then was Taylor Heineke playing for the, like the competition's quarterback's

has quietly been horrific. Now he gets Michael Pettix, pushing it deep into that's kind of like what Kyle Pitts is going to be better at. it's explosive plays. So, man, I hope Pennix is good. I'm just saying it's so much fun if Pennix is good. I know.

The best quarter-ex situation, Pitts has ever had probably, but it's the cheapest he's ever been in a contract year. At the very least, I think Pitts himself is probably going to need to stat chase because he's probably got like a $50 million difference in whatever's next contract would be riding on whether he actually can flash something this year.

So I think he's clearly the guy. And again, if he's had it before you're scarred. I can't believe we're fucking doing it. I have a blast. Every episode we have in like a 10-minute Kyle Pitts conversation, I love it. I think Kyle Pitts is, he's kind of like that like toxic X where your friends want you to stop talking to her, but you're just, you know what I mean? There's just like you can't, you can't quit each other, you're bad for each other.

I think that's what he is. It's just crazy chemistry between me and Kyle Pitts. Yeah. She does something to me, man. Ben Affleck just keeps going back for Jennifer Lopez. Maybe you have a little fucking crazy. Maybe it'll work this time. You know what I mean?

Carl Pitts is shine in the town. Oh, yeah. Oh, my God. Okay. Any other guys about the... So we're creating anything else with Thirst Trout. Thurstrap here. It's Pits, Kincaid, Warren, and Loveland, the guys who definitely won't work, but we'll convince ourselves.

What are we doing with Johnny Smith? Nah. I think John Smith is... Is he off the radar now? Well, so the next group here, you got like Jake Ferguson, Godder, Brent and Strager. Johnny Smith, who's the top four tied in last year. If he was in Miami, I think Miami's probably one of the three best situations she could have been in. still is one of the three worst

because now he's like splitting time at tight end with Pat Fryermuth the Steelers want to run the ball he's got to earn Aaron Rogers' trust you're basically counting that John Smith will get screens designed for him with yards after the catch but I'm like sure Well that's what happened last year

Yeah but like it's Mike McDaniels designing screens for Arthur Smith I don't know I mean John Smith could be I think he's serviceable if you want to bet on him like John Smith's Smith there was Zach Hertz he's a flyer He's a flyer Henry Yeah these are guys you can just have on your bench you're like depending on your deeper league is, you can just add it.

Like John Smith, Hunter Henry, Jake Ferguson, Dallas Godder, like, you know. Can I throw out a guy that's getting some hype in my neck of the woods right now that is a very deep cut. What are you calling at High Fest? Are you going to- Are you going to-off?

What are you going to-alling at? The thirst trap. There's a thirst trap happening right now in my neck of the woods with Elijah Royo, Seahawks, tight end, who, by the way, we didn't mention it, but no fan, unceremoniously released from the Seahawks, And the way that they were talking about him in post draft.

So they were talking about Arroyo post draft. And they basically were like, this guy can play X for us. He's essentially a receiver. And everything that you're hearing out of Seahawks training camp so far is that he's lighting it up. So just putting it on your radar. Is that because he's running next to Cooper Cup? And they can't believe how fast he looks next to Cooper Cup.

Maybe. Cooper Cup's really slow. You're making my point here. DK, do you think the Laija Royal? Is he good enough to where like you should be spending the last pick in your draft on him or no? I think it's worth a flyer on him, sure. I don't think you should bank on him being the starter for you. You would draft DeLajeroy or you're saying you would add him if he has good week one.

Sure, yeah. That's a big difference. Is it worth holding on to him for like the first month of the season because he might become a star in the offense? To be clear, the guys you draft him over, you're talking about like Roshan Johnson might be the last pick of your draft. Ray Davis for the bills might be the last pick of your draft. Like Isaac Rendo for the Nairns. Like lottery ticket type pick. Yeah, but I'd rather have those guys.

So, I mean, it needs something. Fuck you. I'm going to take Arroyo and you guys can take Ray Davis and then we'll move on with our lives. I'm taking Darren Waller. Just throwing his name out there, right? I'm playing chess. You guys are playing checkers. Darren Waller's back.

Is he even on the field yet? I don't know. Dude, I almost can't believe. I think he's on the NFI. The music video, Darren Waller returned. I can't. So Darren Waller, he's on the dolphins now after the dolphins traded Jonah Smith. which really we should just talk about the Darren Waller music video all over again,

where Kelsey Plum just ruined him and then he made the music video. That was a tough look. And he's dead on the beach in the music video. But clearly just the water was hitting his face. And he's just like, that was definitely made by like some college film student who like got paid like 500 bucks. That's, who got paid like 500 bucks.

I don't know why that's so funny. So, Arroyo's D.K.'s random tight end who he thinks actually will be serviceable. I feel like the guys I did not say that. I said there's a, he's a fucking lottery ticket. He's taking Elijah Royal fringe top 10. Can I throw out a couple? Can I throw out a couple late round dudes that I'm interested in? Please.

Chig. Chig with Kim Ward in Tennessee. He's another like, we're waiting. We're waiting for this to happen. He kind of started to happen at the end of last year. I have a tight end on my forehead that just says Chig O'Conquo cannot catch a football. I'm thinking about She's better. You can improve it. He can't catch.

And then the last guy I want to mention is the rookie in New York. Mason Taylor. On the Jets. Hall of Fame bloodlines. Hall of Fame bloodlines. Looks like already he's like going to be the starter. Not that he had a crazy competition with Jeremy Ruckert and Stone Smart, but all the reports out of Champ are that he is like

a professional knows what he's doing, does not make mental mistakes, incredibly reliable. He was a second round picking the draft. Outside Garrett Wilson, they have Josh Reynolds and Alan Lazzard. There's no tied-in competition. You know. I like this, Craig. I like this one. I just think it's somebody to keep an eye on. Would you use the last pick of the draft on this guy? Probably not.

Probably not. What do we, well, I think that it's important to have like if they were good, it might mean something. Because here, it's weird because the one hand, rookie tight ends almost never do anything. Right. There have been five relevant rookie tight end seasons, basically in the last 15 years. And it's, you can count, it was Brock Bowers last year. Get Brock Bowers best tight end prospect. probably ever. Kyle Pitts was up there.

Cal Pitts had a thousand yards as a rookie. Sam Leporter who had 10 touchdowns. And other than that, it's like Evan Engram randomly. And then honestly, it's Gronk and Aaron Hernandez, which is always awkward. Yeah, but it's happening more often, more lately. It is happening more often, but even more often is one guy a year. And they were all first round picks for the most part.

And so on one hand. Leporter was a second round. It's true, but like the third pick of the second round. Okay, well, that's a second round pick. Just saying. However. When was Mason Taylor picked? Second round?

I know, but what pick? 50th. No, that was Arroyo. Oh, maybe it wasn't. So, hold on. Now I've got to figure out when Arroyo was taken. But the flip side, though, this is considered a good, 40 second. But this was considered a good tight end class.

That's the flip side, though. It was considered a good tight end class. Just like last year's receiver class was considered a great receiver class. And guess what? They had a third of the best rookie receiver seasons we've ever seen in fantasy. Right. So I will say, I generally think rookie tight ends are a terrible bet. T-Ferg.

Terrence Ferguson. Well, yeah. that's the other guy where I'm like, but if tight-end rookies are going to hit in one year, like it would be this season. Like, I'm just saying it would be this year. I mean, look,

we're grasping at straws here. None of these guys are probably going to be doing shit. No, he probably just won't Breton Strange on the Jaguards or some shit. All these guys say, Hunter Henry for the, Zach is going to score more points than any of these guys. Hunter Henry on a Patriots team is probably just going to outscore everyone we've talked about.

He's going to be like the waiver's king this year, Hunter Henry. Also, if T. Higgins gets hurt, you spend all your fab on Mike Kisicki. It's funny where. they brought Mike's sickie back. I hate talking about fucking tight ends.

God damn it. Just take, honestly not back. I'm like take Rock Bowers. God. Yeah. Come by. Yeah.

Dick after going through all this muck, should we, is that the answer? Just take that. I think to take Bowers. Take one of the top three guys. I like the first like six or seven guys actually. Like I'd be after that it's a bloodbath.

I. Right. Like I would, I would actually be fine with Mark Andrews or Sam Laporteur or T.J. Hawkinson. But man, after that it gets bleak. It's just like when the chips are doubt.

Because like the first. couple of days after your draft, you're like, oh, my team feels pretty good. Colson Loveland for my, for me is, oh, he's going to go off. And then he'll play like 30% of the snaps a week. Like, fuck. One target. Now I need to do something. Sometimes when you're depressed, you look back at your draft recap in your league.

And you're like, oh, my God, what could I have done? And you just see like, oh, I took Marvin Harrison Jr. over like George Kittle. Or you took like, oh, I took like. Oh, I took Giovante Williams over Brock Bowers last year. And you're like, oh, my God. Like, I'm good. I could have just like that with any of this. Dude, the dynasty, the one in dynasty that kills me every time I look at it is like all the stupid players I took before Pooka Nakuwa.

Pukkah and rookie draft was going in like third and fourth round. Monrois St. Brown or something. Is that? And I'm like, fuck. Like I took some random guy didn't even make the team. Dude, Justin Herbert went like so late in so many dynasty rookie drafts because like, well, they were like, well, he was quiet. Like he was the fifth pick in the draft. Yeah.

So sixth, whatever. Um, okay. Yeah, hindsight sucks. Yeah, hindsight's awful. She'd get rid of it. Okay. Any other tight ends you guys want to talk about? No.

Yeah. Tyler Conklin on the, on the chargers? I like Tyler Conklin, actually. I actually, I actually, he's actually one of the guys that I would, I would be like if he had a good week one, I'd believe it. Arronda Gadsden? I, no, I'll never take it noise. I will say also when Craig said Mason Taylor has NFL bloodlines. I think that we need a list of words that people.

Oh, oh, yeah. Should we not say that? That's just a list of words. We just need a list of words that people say when they don't really have a point, but they want to sound cool. And it's like, oh, cerebral player.

NFL bloodlines. Like, guys, dad's Jason Taylor. Bloodlines just sounds cool. Like, you know what you're doing. I like when a player comes from professional sports. He's also the nephew of a,

of Zach Thomas. He is, yeah, Zach Thomas's sister. I know. No, I'm sure. I know.

But he's in his fucking court. I like that line, though. I'm sorry. I like that his relatives played professional sports. Is that crazy? No,

And they didn't play sports, Craig. They're in the Hall of Fame. Right. I know, but bloodline is a word you use to like, you're trying to invoke some like ancient, you know what I mean? You're like bloodline sounds like Game of Thrones like, oh, yeah. Hi Fitz, you're the one who talks about McVeigh's grandfather being whatever he did. I can't even remember.

No, it matters. No, it matters. I just think Bloodline's a funny word. Shanahan grew up around the game. I feel like growing up around the game and being on the sideline in locker rooms like all throughout your childhood. You know, it is such a cliche. I get that.

But it's like you know how to be a pro. And you have, you have all this information. You have all this information that most guys that are rookies do not have. Oh, 100% matters. I just think bloodline's a funny word. It is. Also, he's not related to Zach Thomas, right? He's a nephew.

No, it's his uncle. Jason Taylor married Zach Thomas's sister. Jason Taylor married Zach Tom. The defensive end of the dolphins married the middle linebacker's sister. So Zach Thomas is his uncle. And also, that's like Brett Belima, who's the giant coach at Nebraska or whatever? was always like, yeah, if you want to know how big a lineman's going to be, look at it, look at the mom's brothers. That's his science.

Yeah, I believe that anyway. All right. Let's go to some emails and get the hell out of here. All right, we got an email here from Wes. Wes. Wesley. I'm not even going to say W. Bone. That's the worst one, though.

It's dead last. Breakfast is, he says, two scoops of protein mixed with 170 grams of Greek yogurt, splash of milk, top with five grams, chia seeds, 80 grams, bananas, 200 grams of blackberries and trash. This guy's fucking rolling out of the front door. My goodness. Can we do that again? That's a lot of good shit right there. He has a Greek yogurt,

splash of milk. Two scoops of protein powder. I mean, each scoop is probably 25 grams Greek yogurt at a time. He's getting out the door at 80, 100 grams of protein before 9 a.m. He's lifting. Wes, that's your lift routine.

That's crazy. Wes is an absolute unit. Is Wes in the NFL? Bulking pot. Probably his NFL bloodlines. Probably his Hall of Fame bloodlines. Seriously. Wes says in James

So we were talking about James Winston's 30-30 season Which is just incredible 30 touchdowns 30 picks West says in James Winston's 30-30 year A guy in her league had James as his quarterback And he figured out the life act that Every week he would just start James Winston A quarterback and then streamed the defense

That James Winston was playing Oh I love that Double dipping Yes So James would always get 20 or 30 points And then the defense would always get like 15 or more and he won the championship.

That's really good. It lives in legend. And then he says also, speaking of all the people's names with different names, John Wayne's real name was Marion Morrison. Really? Marion.

Marion Morris. John Wayne's name was Marion Morrison. Wow. Yeah, I don't know if I heard that before. Marion Robert Morrison. Wow. Yeah.

Nice. Crazy. So shout out Wes. What's? The other. Chase also said it talking about the name thing. like people change their names. Chase emailed in and said,

listening to all talk about the greatest name changes. Like, hey, he said, have you guys ever seen the movie Robin Hood, Men in Tights? Actually, which is one of my,

don't think I have. One of my all-time favorites. It's a great one. There's like a witch name to Latrine. And she's like, and the king is like, Latrine, that a family name?

And she's like, yeah, used to be Shithouse. Oh, God. Okay, I guess that's just for me. They don't make them like they used to. No.

he says hey blinking he's like you say a blinking you say a blinking I don't even I said hey blinking it's the fucking best okay all those old movies are so good

oh god Cody says typically I what a what oh this is a wild I didn't even put this email in for this reason but reading it Cody says typically I try to skip Cody but if I don't it's either a McGrittle on the way

to work. Damn. Oikos triple zero yogurt with creatine powder, no in between. What a wild. Like, that's a wide range. No breakfast. McGrittle.

You make, you eat McGrittles for breakfast? Yeah. Oh, no. I was thinking of McRib, sorry. I was, I was picturing a McRib,

and I was like, that sounds awful. I really want to know, like, what's the difference in this guy's day when he has a McGrittle versus a Lycos and protein powder? Like,

is he more productive at work? Maybe that you should track that, pal. We should also guess. I think we could get the ages of these people like really, really sharply. Yeah, this guy's not out of this. This guy's for sure, 25. Like the fantasy punishments, I can tell you exactly how old everyone is.

Everyone's like, yeah, just eat like 80. However hot dogs, Joey Chestnut eats on the 4th of July, you have to do that in a week. And I'm like, you're 27. Yeah. Guarantee it. If that. It were maybe 23. Okay.

Wait, what did he? What was the email? Sorry. I forgot why even put this in here. He said, the last episode we were talking about, I don't know, we started talking about feet, we're talking about toes, my basketball shoes, and then I didn't mention he had flat feet. Cody says, I just wanted to say when Hyford said he had flat feet, I totally definitely already knew that.

I don't know how to explain it, but it's just obvious. He looks like a guy who would have flat feet. I kind of get that. Fucking made me cackle. I kind of, I kind of understand me saying. Do I? Do I look like a guy who would have flat feet? This is Genesee Claw.

Yeah. I don't know what it is. That would hurt, but he's right. Yeah, yeah. It's hard for me to separate, you know? It hurts, but I respected. That was one of the first. Yeah, yeah.

I mean, it's not great that you introduce yourself to people and you're like, hi, I'm Danny Hyatt flat feet. You tell everybody. Spot the lot, yeah. God, that's funny. You can also, when you look down at those shoes, the shoes you wear are always indicative of a flat footer. Well, yeah, it's, it's, you know, shout up Brooks Beasts.

Yeah, those big old, old. honking bastards. As big old moon shoes, you're clomping around and getting, you know what? I just love, I love the image of him chasing down Richie. Oh my God, dude, Riches, here's the footsteps thinking of Ed Reed back on the middle. Thundering, like thunder claps behind him. Dude, honestly, I mentioned the Richie story. You know how like basketball courts like give a little?

Like you can feel it. Dude, it actually happened. Yeah. I remember that one, but it actually happened like three times over the course of that summer. Like I actually stopped three layups in transition because my footsteps were so loud. And you're just not afraid to flagon and foul someone. No, yeah, I think it was because they knew it was me. And they're like, he's going to throw me under the basket.

But I was actually like 40 feet behind them. They had no idea. I don't have any more emails, but I actually wanted to talk about a random thing that happened in the NBA. Okay. And I don't know. Maybe we'll cut this. I just couldn't believe this. So the athletic did a breakdown on the five-year anniversary of the bubble in the NBA,

which was a crazy era of life. But Darry, who's the president of the Sixers, just openly said in the story that, yeah, most people I talked to within the league, they don't really think that title counts it as an asterisk. And I actually could not believe the president of a different NBA team just was like their team's title dug out.

I don't know if there's anything else like that in other sport where he's not retired. Like he runs the sixers. Like something Jerry Jones would say. It's the most dismal. The Sixers are the most disappointing team of the decade. I don't think it's even close. And Darrell, like,

am I crazy, Craig? I cannot, I know people have thoughts on the bubble. Some people are like, it's harder. Some people, it's like it's asterisk. You can't say that on the record. Why not? You run the Sixers. Who cares?

What does that have to do with anything? That's so, dude. He literally says if the Rockets had won it, I never would have admitted it. Of course. But we didn't win. I know. I just think that's such bullshit. Oh, that it's an asterisk.

That is a different argument. I actually think Daryl Morey is hilarious. And I completely can see. He is the person who would be saying this. I know he is. He is. One, I think it's interesting, but I also, it sounds like such sour grapes. 100%.

Maybe they're right. But they're all like all the other GMs. It's literally like a fantasy football league. We're like, well, that title doesn't count. Well, this is like, Daryl Morey has been edged his whole career. I mean, this poor man constructed the rockets to, try to beat the Warriors and couldn't do it every year.

Dude, that Rockets game crazy. I remember where I was. That Rockets game, I'm just thinking about where they met. How many threes did they miss at the end of the game? Like 25 or something. Oh, my God. That's still the most cringe,

one of those cringe games I've ever seen. Or the one where Steph had zero points at halftime and then scored 35 in the back. Yeah. Anyway, is it just me? I just, I couldn't believe that a guy running an NBA team was like,

yeah, that other team's title kind of bullshit. I don't think that's that big of you. Maybe I guess I'm, I think it's kind of just funny and more executive shouldn't speak that way. It would be more fun. Yeah, what's it going to do?

Dude, I saw a video of the day of a game in the pandemic. It was like the Celtics versus the Timberwolves or something. Tatum hits a game winner. And the edit that I saw was like somebody in the arena videotaping. So it wasn't like the broadcasts whether like piping in,

you know, like crowd noise or whatever. It is so awkward and weird. Like he hits a game winner. There's just nobody there ever. It's weird. I just can't believe it happened. I almost can't remember it.

Have you ever heard the, have you ever seen the videos on like Instagram or whatever where somebody just dubs in, they take out the crowd noise and then just dub in like squeaks and stuff from the from the floor? Oh my. It's just like this is like what basketball would be like without any other sounds. It's like watching like when they do those sitcom edits of Seinfeld without the laugh tracks. Totally. The best take, I apologize.

I'm now getting bad enough memory. I don't remember if someone emailed us. Oh, no. It was. Someone emailed us this when we asked for low stakes conspiracy theories. Email, and we'll take more of those. We love low stakes conspiracy theories. The best.

Someone emailed us in. Someone was watching basketball with a friend. And the friend never watches the NBA. And they were like, there's no way that the sneakers squeaked that much. They're adding that in. They're like, there's no chance the sneakers make that much sound. He didn't believe the squeaks. I thought that was the funny.

They squeaked. I don't know they squeaks so much. That's like so. obviously not true. It's so squeaky. There's so many squeak. I just thought it was so funny that someone watching gay, be like, squeaks super loud. That's so embarrassing when you're just like walking in some

random place and like you make your shoe squeak. Because you just like don't step correctly. It is. Email us those two. Last year, please email us more icks, especially any women listening, all 14 of you, please email us in X, more I, Jackie is in a tennis now.

And she, her new ick is when you look at your racket, when you miss a shot. Like, are the It was the racquet's fault. Don't blame the racket. Oh, but that's the tail as old as time. That expands far beyond tennis. You go out. Yeah, you hit a miss a club.

Don't look at your glove. I wonder if it's the seminar. You miss a shot. You look at your hand. You know what I mean? Like in basketball. Like that happens. That hell happened.

You're like, yes. There is like a, like, when you trip and you look back at the ground, like it was the ground. Yeah. Well, this, we've actually talked about this before on the show, but I just still love this so much. It's like that time Steph found the dead spot in the basketball court because it was like the ball didn't come directly.

to my hand. Something's fucking wrong. I know. Don't you wish you could be that literal wizard? I know. It's so awesome. Wait, I wanted to read, Hyfitz, you bringing up low-stakes conspiracies,

reminded me of an old email I just found that I wanted to bring up. We got it a couple weeks ago from Dylan. D-Bomb! He said, My friend adamantly believes that S&L is not live and refers to it as Saturday not live. He thinks it's a big hoax and they actually record ahead of time. I was truly baffled that somebody could think this earnestly. My best point that gave him possible.

was that S&L is usually not funny and if it was pre-recorded, it would be much funnier. I noticed that almost convinced him, but he held true to his belief. Is there any way I can definitively prove to him that it's not live? Is he right? Help. You went to Saturday Night.

You have to go, I guess. I guess you have to go. You went last year. Yeah, I'm telling Dylan's friend, it is live, but I guess I, unless you go, maybe you won't believe it. You have to go. What time was it recording? It started 1135 or whatever. Yeah, it started right on the dot, 1135. So it was live, but I don't know what, I guess unless he goes.

Well, maybe you're part of the cover up. Well, I'm trying to think is there a way to prove it to him? Like, is there anything I can say to him other than I went? You went and like, what else can you say? I don't believe first person testimony. Like, yeah, you know, that's a pretty sticky place to go. You know, like if I hadn't gone to S&L, what would I say to him to prove it's life? I don't think we could do better than that.

There's no, you can't prove it. I just love that. Saturday not live. It's a great name. It is such a random thing to take a stand on. I just love him sitting back and he's like, no, that's not life. No way.

You know, it's more of conspiracy theories like that. I feel like our, the best part about that is like he has a nickname for it. Like Saturday not life. He's taking it that much. Because, you know, I will say like, late night shows. feel live, but they're not.

They're pre-recorded like five hours before they air. So that is good. What shows are live apart from sports and awards shows? Well, Malaney had a talk show called Everybody's Live. That was live on Netflix. What else is live? Not a lot. Craig, there was a sort of cult classic comedy skit show in Seattle back in the day called

Almost Live. Oh, really? Yeah. Was it like tape delayed or something? You know, I don't know, actually, probably, yeah. But it was like, and a lot of it was like, you know, the skits that they record way before and then just put them in as like interstitials and stuff like that. Yeah.

Definitely like a cult classic in this area for sure is like Bill Dye was in it. Some people that got famous. I don't know him. Bill Dye. Bill Nye, the science guy. Oh, Bill Nye. Yeah. Oh, my God, the goat.

But you'd look it up, Craig. I bet you'd like that show. Yeah. Maybe I'll look back on it. Comedy's dead now, so I need something. I know. That's what I'm saying. You got to check it out.

I saw the new naked gun. It comes out this week. I really enjoyed it. I started watching Happy Gilmore, too. I won't say anything yet. Great. We'll discuss Hyvitz. I'm assuming you have not watched it yet.

Not yet. I feel Wednesday, July 30th. I have not. I'm going to watch it tonight. Okay. Tonight's the night. Great. Joel McCale was on almost live.

Oh. Did he play football at UW? Yes. Yeah. Big guy. Yeah, he's like pre-ripped. One of the few celebs who's actually like very tall. Oh.

How tall is he? How tall do you think is, Craig? Probably 6-3, 6-4. That's my guess. Yeah. I'm going to say 6-4. Oh, yeah, 6-4. Yeah.

Yeah. Big dude. Are you guys community, guys? I watched the first season and I didn't love it. And everyone's like, well, you got to keep going. And I should keep going. But it's like, you know, so many sitcoms like they're not good in season one. You give up.

So I know I should keep going. Well, and you're a Rick and Morty guy. It's the same creator, Dan Harmon. Yeah. Yeah. I think Royalin was better than I realized. I liked community a lot. I would not say like I'm a community guy because I haven't watched every episode.

But like I love that. It's in the same vein of like arrest development where there's like a million inside jokes and like a million callbacks to other jokes. Yeah, it's like a little nerdier. It's like kind of nerd culture, REST and development, and it was also a part of just an electric slate of shows. It was like Parks and Rec,

30 Rock, the office and community at one point. It was just out of control. There are certain shows that when people like them, though, I feel like I'm missing something. And I think everyone has this. And I kind of, I think we need a new Myers-Briggs test for, like, television that are like plug in the shows you like,

the shows that were recommended to you that you don't like, the people you know that thought you'd like something that you don't. Yeah. And I think there's like archetypes. And because like for me, like Schitt's Creek is the show where when I everyone like my mom loves it. Jackie likes it. Like, and I'm, and I'm, and they're laughing at parts.

And I'm like, why did you think that was funny? Yeah. I don't get it. I don't get it. I like Schitt's Creek. I think Schitt's Creek is like a good show. But I think it came at a time when we were struggling in the sitcom space and it was the pandemic. And like, I think people

found the show comforting in the same way Ted Lassow was. But I think if Schitts Creek was out in the heyday of sitcoms, like in the office era, I don't think it would have really done a lot. But I know on the opposite end of the spectrum is Ted Lassow, where I love Ted Lassow and Craig. I love Ted Lassow too. People hide people who don't like Ted Lassow to hide it because the

Ted Lassow fan base gets so emotional. If you don't like the show, they like bully you and liking it. Which is ironic because the show's like about not being a bully. But yeah. Yeah, it's true. But then if you don't like Ted Lassow, well, you're a bad fucking person. Yeah, like, it's like, the fans of Ted Lassau are extremely exclusionary, which is like the opposite of the lesson you were supposed to learn from the fucking show. It's like a cast.

This sounds familiar. This sounds familiar to something else that happens, but what I'm not going to say. All right. Well, on that note, thank you, D.K., thank you, Craig. Thank you. Ronick. Thank you, Kai. Thank you, Carlos.

Thank you, awesome. Thank you, everyone for listening. Emails for your fantasy football at Gmail. Gmail.com. Oh, geez. Linger Fantasy Football at Com. Low Stakes conspiracy theories. I'll take X.

Any actual football questions, too. We take those as well. or rankings are at fantasy, Football.3.com, Instagram, TikTok, ringer fantasy. YouTube, subscribe to us on YouTube,

please. Yeah. Thank you, Lord. Lord, is S&L live? Tell us. Tell us, Lauren. We'll never know. Thank you, Lou Bega.

Oh, hell yeah. Mamba number five. Hell yeah. One of the most classic one-hit wonders of all time, like Lou Bega? A little bit of Jessica in my life. When I was 10 years old,

like I knew every word in that song. That guy is a wonderful. Is that the right song that I was just seeing? Okay, okay. A little bit of Jessica in my life. A little bit of Erica for my wife. A little bit of Rita is all I see. A little bit of Tina's all I need.

A little bit of Sandra in the sun. In the sun. A little bit of Mary all night long. A little bit of Jessica. Here I am. A little bit of you makes me, oh man. I can't believe you do the words to that. I don't know if those names are exactly right, but I think it's close.

That song might be the song I have heard the most that I didn't know more than three words, too. I feel like I saw that song every, like, I can't even tell how much I've heard that. And yet I can't believe you just did all the words. Oh, yeah. I could probably- Number five has 773 million listens on Spotify and his next closest is 18 million. That song is a one-second.

Like cola? That's a one-second song. Yeah, it is. Oh, should we bring back the one-second song challenge? DK, will you do it with me? We have to do D-K-vers-hythens. We have to. D-K-vers-hythens.

D-Ks got so mad the last time we did this. And again, I'll never do that every time. I'll curate it. It'll be good. Don't worry. It'll be better. Okay. No,

Dick is like, we'll talk about this offline. No, we'll do it. We'll do it. One second song. There's a couple fighting out at dinner at a dinner party. We'll talk about this when we get back at the house.

We'll talk about this later. One second song challenge. All right, we'll bring it back. Man, Lou Begging. Thank you, Lord.

I don't know why the fuck it's called mumbo. You keep doing that. It's a fuck. You did it. Goodbye. God. I did it again. What?

I have the yips. Thank you, Lord. Goodbye. Fuck.