The Ringer NFL Show - 2023 NFL Power Rankings: AFC East

Episode Date: July 18, 2023

Nora Princiotti and Steven Ruiz open by discussing DeAndre Hopkins's decision to sign with the Tennessee Titans. They then rank the teams in the AFC East from best to worst and adjust their NFL rankings thus far. Hosts: Nora Princiotti and Steven Ruiz Associate Producer: Stefan Anderson Additional Production Supervision: Arjuna Ramgopal and Conor Nevins Musical Elements: Devon Renaldo Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Bill Simmons from The Ringer, and this is a podcast called The Rewatchables. We have been doing it. Really since 2017, it started with how much we love the movie Heat. We decided to structure a whole podcast with categories, most rewatchable scene, who of the movie, Apex Mountain, what age the best. But here's the thing. If you want the full archive, you can hear them only on Spotify for free, by the way. So make sure to follow the rewatchables on Spotify. Hello and welcome to the Ringer NFL show.

I'm Nora Pintziotti. I am here. As always, with Stephen Ruiz. He has always loved having haters and doubters. Isn't that right, Stephen? That is right. I mean, you're not doing it, you're not doing it right if you don't have haters and dollars.

Absolutely. My parents tell me that all the time. Since birth. The first lesson imparted unto young Stephen was, look, look, son. Always got to have those haters and doubters. DeAndre Hopkins has always loved having haters and doubters

as he tweeted when he announced his signing with the Titans for two years 26 million at least on the face of it there's 12 million this year plus up to three in incentives which would get him to Odell's 15 which I'm going to assume was a bit of a benchmark

in this we've been waiting for this signing we're going to continue our power ranking series in this episode, but we're going to talk about Hopkins off the top. We've been waiting for this all summer, right? We sort of planned the order of this series around like, oh, don't want to make sure we can react to Hopkins. Don't know what's going to happen.

Better be careful. And now he's with a team that's currently 19th in our rankings that's made a series of big but interesting wide receiver moves over the last couple of off seasons. what do you think about this ultimate landing spot? Like, no offense to Tennessee. And remember, I said no offense. But this is like the most boring.

Which means that it's fine. Yeah, it means whatever I say does not count. But like Tennessee's, I was joking a couple weeks ago when we were talking about that. He's going to end up signing with Tennessee. And I was like thinking back to the Julio Jones thing when everyone was expecting. He's like, oh, he can go to the chiefs, go to the bills. And then he ends up on the Titans. The Titans are a perfectly fine team.

It's just not a move that's going to move the needle in the AFC. I think the reason why we were kind of delaying the AFC East or even the AFC West was we thought he was going to go to Buffalo or Kansas City some power team, and then he went to a team that's going to struggle to fight for a wild part spot. So I do think it makes their offense a little more complete. Like now when you look at their depth chart, it's like, oh, this makes a little more sense because now they have a what you think is. is a legit number one receiver.

I think we have to see him stay healthy for one, he had a lot of problems with soft tissue injuries. And those are probably the injuries that are more likely to continue as you get up there in age. So, I mean, on the field, I think it makes them a better team. I just don't know if it makes them a significant. It seems the best rate on this to me

is that ultimately what was motivating him was he wanted to get a good financial deal. I don't think that this was probably what he initially set his sights on, but it's still, I mean, that's a lot of money. And I would imagine that if that were not the primary concern, a team like the bills

would have liked to have him, like the chiefs would have liked to have him if the price had been less significant, without knowing how far apart, you know, is that taking? a couple million off the top is that having the value of the deal

like what would that have taken? We don't really know. It seems like ultimately it came down to the Titans are New England and Tennessee seems to have offered more money. That indicates to me that ring chasing was not the primary object here.

But are there any teams that you're looking at now going, this might end up feeling like a missed opportunity taken just because some general manager somewhere whose team could use a DeAndre Hopkins wasn't willing to pay for it?

I mean, I would put Kansas City on the list. I don't think it's going to matter because they have Patrick Mahomes, but I think having that guy that he can kind of trust outside of Kelsey to get open on third down, which he had in Juju last year. And there's certainly a chance

that someone on the roster takes that step, but we haven't seen it yet and we know Hopkins can be that guy It's been that guy in the past. I do think, like, another part of it is, but beyond the money. The money obviously matter. But I don't think, like, DeAndre Hopkins is, like, grinding the DVOA and the EPA. And, like, I think he just looks at the Titans as a team that has won, like, 30 games over the last three years.

And he's like, oh, they're pretty good. And I'm, like, a number one receiver. And I'm pretty good. If I go there, like, we'll be pretty good. We're going to be great. I don't think it's like, yeah, I don't think he, like, knows, like, I don't know. Maybe he does. Maybe he keeps up with his stuff.

I don't know that I, I think he probably knows that the chiefs and the bills are better than the Titans. No, no, he knows that. But I think he thinks the Titans as a playoff team because that's what they've been for the last three years. I mean, they've kind of overachined. So I don't think he sees it as like, oh, I'm just taking the money. I think he thinks he's going to a playoff contender because that's what they've kind of been. And he also gets to be the number one guy.

Like that's another thing that we have. Like, you're not going to be the number one guy in Kansas City. you're not going to be the number one guy in Buffalo. You're not going to disrupt Josh Allen and Stepon Diggs or Patrick Mahomes and Travis Kelsey. So I don't know. I kind of get it from this perspective, even beyond the money.

Yeah, and I mean the path to, because the incentives are tied to production, not that that would have been an identical case in any potential deal, but likely that would have been some piece of the equation. It's a lot easier to get to 1,000 for Cesar leaving yards if you're DeAndo Hopkins in Tennessee than it is if you're competing with someone like Stefan Diggs in Buffalo where it's just like you're not going to

be the number one unless there's an injury or the type of career renaissance that seems like an outlier to predict. The Titans, they said, are currently 19th in our rankings, which I will say revisiting this, it's not that it feels low to me when you look at at who the other teams are around them. But it, it, I guess made me wonder about the thing that you're saying might have influenced Hopkins' decision, which is just, Mike Grable's a pretty good coach, seems to get a lot out of this team, sort of no matter who's on it.

Does this move the needle at all? We have them right now. It's, we have the saints, at 16, the Raiders at 17, the Panthers at 18, and then the Titans, and then after them, it's the Bears, Rams, bucks, Texans, and Cardinals.

I'm willing to push them up to, like, Pittsburgh, New Orleans territory, because I think the reason why those teams are kind of where they are is because it's the reputation of their coaching staffs getting the most, like getting wins. Like, it's the same setup as Tennessee.

And I think now, like, looking at the roster, I think it's talented enough. The concern is the offense from time. Like, and I think that's like, that's kind of like the mistake all of us make. and I'm talking about like analysts. When we're like looking at a depth chart for season previews,

we tend to just look at the skill players and the quarterback and like the position, like premium positions and kind of overlook offense line. But I think that could be an issue that totally disarrows this team just because of how Mike Rable wants to win games on offense. They want to be a running team. You need a good offensive line to be a good running team. They want to be a deep drop passing team. You need a good offense line to do that too.

And if they don't have that, it kind of like everything. else kind of just gets a little worse. So I think the offensive line is still a major concern. So I would push them up a couple's places. I'm not going to put them in the top path. Yeah. No, I think that's right. I mean,

in some ways, I think this is making me rethink if we're assigning enough points to just Rables coaching more so than having Hopkins certainly helps them. Having a second genuinely threatening

receiver, obviously that's health dependent, but someone who defensively are going to have to plan around somewhat, I think that's, that matters. I don't know that just the addition of D'Andre Hopkins is making me say, oh, they should be five slots higher in our power rankings now because they have D'Andre Hopkins. It's more that like, I do think you're right that probably part of his decision making process was this team does tend to be in the playoffs. They do tend to, you know, Rable's a pretty good coach. They do tend to get a lot with a little.

The roster has taken enough hits that I think were right to evaluate that this is going to be a different year. But I just wonder if we're underrating those factors slightly. I think we probably are. But there's also a chance that we're overrating by Brable's chance to get his ability to get the most out of his teams. Not bad, but get extra wins out of his teams. Because we're based on like a two-year, three-year sample.

like last year, they didn't win a game after Thanksgiving. And they started Josh Dobbs in like the biggest game of the season. Like I don't know. Maybe there's a chance that we're giving him a little too much credit too. But like the way I rank these teams, like when I think of powerings, I think of like head-to-head one game, a playoff game on a neutral field. Who would win? I think this is a move that kind of helps them over the course of the regular season,

like a large sample size. But like this doesn't affect like how I think they match. up with the Chief Sending, really. So I don't know. Head to head with the Panthers. Like that makes me, I want to give them the Vrable Bump there over the, like a team like that.

I think it does matter. So I would put them over the Panthers. I would put them over the Raiders. I think the Saints is where I kind of like start to wonder. I think that's where I would put them. That sweet spot was pitch. Okay. I'm happy with that.

And that really is the sweet spot of coaching bump teams. Right. Yeah. So we'll go Steelers, Saints, and then Titans, and then it's the Raiders, Panthers, Bears, Rans, Bucks, Texans, Cardinals. I do appreciate announcing a move with, I always loved having haters and doubters, which was just what, like, it was what Hopkins tweeted,

and then, like, tighten up, or I'm especially appreciative of it now, tighten up, which was a real nobody, absolutely nobody, everybody hates me. Right. Which I don't think is true. I don't think it's true either. Historically, I've thought of DeAndre Hopkins as, I mean, there's certainly been some drama, especially more recently, doesn't like Bill O'Brien.

I think generally speaking, he's a well-liked, liked receiver, clearly incredibly talented, great career history. Yeah, yeah, I don't know. I don't think he has a reputation for having haters. And I think, like, we sided with him over Bill O'Brien. I think we all are giving him the benefit of the doubt in Arizona. Like, we're like, I would want to leave that situation too. So it's fine.

It's fine, DeAndre. We still like you. None of us hate you. Sending love to DeAndre, wish him the best in Tennessee. All right. The AFC East, it's the division that we're power ranking this week, not the division that Hopkins ended up signing with, although I do wonder if we will sort of mention some decisions

not to shell out to try to get him with some of these teams because I think before this happened, you correctly predicted that he would go to the Titans. I think if I'd had to choose the division, I would have said this one because there's just a couple of teams where it might have made sense. Obviously, that didn't happen. But let's kick it off at the top.

To me, this was an easy choice with Buffalo, the team that's won the FAC East three years in a row. Are we aligned there? Yeah, of course. I don't know. I thought you might do something crazy with Miami. I really thought you might go for it. Yeah, I'm tempted to, but I ended up being modest with my Miami prediction. But I want to.

There's such a cool team that it would be cool if they're. one of the best teams of the league. I think they will have a good NFL season if Miami is just totally awesome and just blows people out with their offense and their defense is a lot better. But still for me, it's Buffalo. It's looking at the roster from top to bottom.

They have the best quarterback in the division. I think anyone's going to argue that. I think they have the coaching staff that's most proven in the division outside of New England. But even in New England, there haven't been the best coaching decisions in New England,

the best coaching hires over the last couple of years. So, I mean, I think on paper they have the best defense. I think on paper they have the best offense. I think on paper they have the best coaching staff or even the second best coaching staff. And like usually when you have all the best stuff in the division,

you win the division. So I'm going to keep them there. One thing that they don't have the best stuff in is in the receiver room there. I mean, obviously Diggs is one of the better receivers in the league. but I think one of their major weaknesses last year was the fact that they didn't get as much secondary receiver production, I think, as they'd hoped. Gabe Davis ended up having a season high

receptions in a single game that was six. They were one of the Hopkins teams for me. Buffalo is one of the holdout teams that just tends to be very financially-privile. prudent and not like to take that many big swings. Von Miller in some ways being the exception, but that's my main assumption for why that didn't happen. I guess my secondary one is that they have Dalton Kincaid and Dawson Knox in the mix.

I'm very curious to see if offensively they go through a little bit of a transition this year into using a bit more 12 personnel if they try to solve some of the protection issues that they've had for Josh Allen by morphing a little bit and just getting some bigger people on the field and diminishing the number of receivers that they're playing occasionally. What do you think about that? Yeah, I think the reason why they maybe passed on Hopkins is because at this point in his career, of redundant with Stefan Diggs, like where they win, where they get their catches. Like, DeAndre Huffins at this point isn't necessarily a deep threat.

He's not like, you're not worried about his speed. He's more of like a route runner in the short to intermediate area, which is Stefan Diggs. And like, I think like Gabe Davis, like Gabe Davis obviously was disappointing last year, but I do still think he serves a role in this offense as a useful player just because he's still that deep threat. Like he was still making exposed plays last year when he did get targets. So you have digs, you have the intermediate guy, you have the deep guy, now you have Dalton Kincaid, kind of like working in the short area being the yak guy, being like an HBAC, move tight end type.

And like where does DeAndre Hopkins fit into it? There's like a point of diminishing returns there. So I kind of get it from their perspective. Like I said earlier, I think the Chiefs missed out more than the bills did. But I really just want to see this offense with Josh Allen's elbow healthy. And like an offensive line that's competent. And I think that's what they're going to have. this year, when we saw that early in the year

last year, this was the best offense in the NFL. It was better than Kansas City. It was more varied. It was harder to kind of like, stay ahead of them. I thought Ken Dorsey did an excellent job over this first two months. I know things kind of fell off the rails in the second half, but I thought that was more due to

Josh Allen's elbow and like kind of how he reacted how he had to react and you just start throwing the ball down to field more. I think that these pieces now, like you have Gabe Davis, you have Stepon Diggs, you have Knox, you have Concade, you have a tougher running back group

than bringing Damian Harris. I think this could be a well-rounded offense. And I know last year the complaint at the end was like, oh, they're too relying on the explosive play, which I don't even think was necessarily true. I just think Josh Allen went into that mode last year. But they're going to

have these pieces to kind of get in different formations, different personnel groupings, and be able to dictate what the defense does. And I thought that's what Ken Dorsey was best at my. year. Now, if they stay healthy, he gets a full year. And if, I mean, look, we will have to reevaluate some of our predictions for Buffalo if we get four or five games in the season. And some of the short area accuracy doesn't return for Josh Allen.

Or if he is still, I mean, look, Kiro Ball has been a part of the Josh Allen conversation since he entered the league. I do place most of what happened towards the end of last season in terms of him being overly reliant or just defaulting to trying for the explosive plays or just relying on that too much to whatever was happening with his elbow and just the nuances of that injury seemed strange and did seem like they were especially affecting him

underneath. if we get into the season and it seems like, well, either it's still bothering him or maybe that wasn't all about the injury, then I think a lot of the calculus changes. But I am very much of the school that those things about their offense popped up right when he was hurt.

So until we have an alternate explanation, I'm going to assume that they will go back to what they were doing at the beginning of last year, which was an absolute juggerna. I mean, that was like one of the most exciting things to watch was an offense, quarterbacked by someone with Josh Allen's ability, all of a sudden just be like ruthlessly dink and dunk efficient when they wanted to be. And it seems like they think that that's possible and going to happen too, just because

I think the choice to invest in tight end, to assume that they actually do have enough at receiver. Like those things seem to fit in with believing that they can continue down that road, which if they can, they should be fine offensively. Yeah, my questions are more on the defensive side. Yeah. Two major departures, Tremaine Edmins,

and then Leslie Frazier. Sean McDermott seems like he's taking a much more, or a more active role. He's always been active in that defense, but is taking the reins there sort of even more than he has the last couple of years. Yeah, like after the Vaughn-Miller trade, something changed with that defense,

like where at the start of the year, they were a four-down, four-man rush team, play zone coverage. We're going to get to the quarterback before the zones break down. and then Vaughn Miller goes down and that kind of just goes out the window like that's set up but they still play it like they're still playing the same style of defense they don't have the personnel to do it any longer I think we saw how bad that defense got especially against the best quarterback's in the league like Joe Burrow did whatever he wanted to that offense like even the dolphins like after their two weeks stretch against the 49ers and the charges where they barely scored everyone's like all the blueprints out too has been figured out this offense stinks next week they put up like 35 on a top-eye defense and I just think it's the nature of what that defense became, this predictable, static, I don't know, it was easy to attack,

it wasn't a moving target. I think if they can get back to that, whether it's with that same setup, but with Von Miller healthy this time and they're playing, like, solid defense, or if they're a little more unsound, I guess, is a way to put it, a little more risky,

call a little bit more blitzes. I think the defense has a chance to be a lot better, even if, like, the stats over the course of the season, because I think they finished, like, first in BBOA last year, year somehow. I don't think they're going to be able to replicate that, but even if they're a top-eye defense that just has a

higher ceiling against good teams, I think that's an improvement. Like, getting Leonard Floyd and getting Von Miller back, that's a pretty good pass rush duo. Like, if Greg Rousseau can kind to continue on his improvement last year, there's a chance as this is a decent defensive line, and that's

something we haven't really been able to say about them for the last couple of years. They just a little, they have not been a game plan defense. And I think the highest ceiling version of this team would be one where McDermott's decision to kind of reassert himself is one designed to say, you know what, we're going to, we're still going to do our stuff. That's what our players are good at. That's what they know how to do. We believe in that system. We've been a good team based on a defensive system that is about

being fundamentally sound and doing the same thing kind of week in and week out. But that has started to hurt us. It has hurt us against the best teams and the best quarterbacks especially. And I am the head coach. I am a defensive head coach. I would like to adopt a little bit more say in,

you know, we're going to switch this up because we're playing Joe Burrow and we think that changing XYZ things is going to give us the best chance to win. Like that has been, like I think you can not that this team hasn't played great, great, great competitive games against the Chiefs, but usually that's been because of their offense. I think you can pin a fair bit of why

Cincinnati has arisen more solidly as the foil to the Chiefs is because defensively they do go at Mahomes and say, we're over here with Big Lou, and we've got a plan to stop you, whereas typically Buffalo lines up and does what they do.

It would be really, really cool to see them try to shake that up a little bit. And I have some optimism that they will try to do that. Yeah, judging on McDermott's pass in Carolina when he was the D.C. under Ron Rivera, that was kind of the setup. It's like very vanilla on first and second down,

but once we get you to third down, we're going to try some crazy stuff. And I think if they get that, that's good enough to kind of, it's a perfect middle ground between being that game plan defense that can rely on these concepts and support concepts. But you could still throw a curveball at the quarterback on third. I wonder if just having Josh Allen, like, I wonder if they've over the last few years just been a little bit like, no, we need one part of our team that's just like calm. Yeah, right. It's just like predictable and normal and not a crazy alien. but they need a little more crazy alien defensively.

So here's what we do. Let Josh Allen play middle wine guys. I think he probably would. You can play seven. The one potential issue for this team that we haven't mentioned is that the intermachinations of various key figures, personal lives, particularly Josh Allen's and Stefan Diggs's alleged feelings about it,

could lead to just utter case. So I will be reading page six. We'll keep you posted on that. All right, who's next for you? I have Miami. And this wasn't hard for me. I don't know about you, like between the Jets and Miami, assuming the Jets are your number three team.

Miami just their ceiling is so high. And I think this could end up being the best team in the NFL outside of Kansas City. I think that's on the table. I don't know if that's, like, I'm not predicting that to be the case. Obviously, I have Buffalo ahead of them. But, like, this is a Super Bowl contender. If Tua is healthy, if Tua,

he doesn't have to match what he did early last year when he was an MVP candidate. And he was, like, up there with Mhombs in terms of, like, EPA per play. But if he can just be 90% of that. And Mike McDaniel is who we think he is, and Big Fangio is who we think he is. Like, I don't see why this.

camp in 12 games with this setup. They're so talented. Across the board. We talk about the offense so much in the receiving court, but like this defensive line has gotten really good. Christian Wilkins is a really good player. I think Jaylen Phillips is a really good player.

He had a good year last year, and I think he could take a step this year. They obviously bring in Bradley Chubb. Now you have Jalen Ramsey. This is a good team with good coaches, and I think they have a chance to be a Super Bowl. my question about them is depth the offensive line

and obviously two as hell outside of that though I don't have many questions about this roster of this team depth is a different conversation I'm just looking at the projected starting lineup for the defense and it is very hard

to point out a weak link it is very hard to point out a level of the defense that seems problematic I mean the defensive line is deep. I think what the, you know, linebacker, I think David Long should be really good for them. That's an exciting move.

And then, yeah, I mean, the secondary should be one of the best in the entire league. Offensive line, other than setting to his health aside, right? Because that's just, that's hard to predict, and that's a different conversation altogether. offensive line to me is the very stark, glaring, clear issue that they could potentially have. If Toronto Armstead is healthy, that helps. I also feel pretty good about their ability to mask a weak offensive line.

It's just that there is a tipping point. and I don't quite know where that is. How okay does this group need to be for Miami to reach their full potential? I mean, I think Armstead just has to say I'll be. I think you hit the nail in the head there. I'm comparing them to the 49ers, obviously, because they run a similar offense.

And I think you brought this up on the NFC Westbub, like looking at the 49ers offense, that's a potential weak spot. But as you also pointed out, they've had no problem coaching around that. And a big part of that coaching staff and coaching around an offensive line is the guy who designs the run game.

And that's what McDaniel did in San Francisco. So I'm confident that he can scheme around that. Now, he was there last year and they had no run game to speak of. And that was an issue. So obviously he didn't scheme around it last year. But the thing that's interesting about it to me is like they don't need

they can do it the same way that San Francisco does, but they don't totally need to just because a lot of, like a lot of what the 49ers are doing, I mean, a lot of it is the run game, but a lot of it is also the quick passing game because they can rely on, on so many yards after the catch, and just getting playmakers in space and getting these like big physical, powerful playmakers

who once they have the ball in their hands are really dangerous. Miami is kind of like that too, but it's, to me, it's like, kind of scarier even because when you, when you design those like quick strike passes, sometimes they're like 15, 18 yard passes because it's Tyrie Kill and Jalen Waddle running them. Whereas a lot of what San Francisco has gone through. And I, like, overall, I think San Francisco is, is probably, I don't know if I think they're better equipped to deal with the weaknesses in the offensive line, but I'd, I don't want to make this sound like I think that they're in a worse position because the 49ers have been so solidly able to do this.

And Miami is a little bit more of a up in the air question. But at least philosophically, there is a thing that only the dolphins can do where when you design those super, super quick, falls out, doesn't matter if there's a rusher coming. because he's already thrown the pass plays because of the personnel, those are not like five, seven-yard passes, and then you have the Jimmy Garoppolo experience, which can be a good offense in the hands of these people, right? But it's even scarier with Miami

because when you do that, all of a sudden it's like 12-yard game, 14, 18, oh, touchdown, because Tyree Kill made one. one guy miss and all this. So like, that is my thing with them is that like Miami dinking and dunking is like actually very productive and leads to. It's just a different conversation than any other team in the league because of because of the total team speed, which has only gotten more significant with Devon A. Jane.

So they are to me uniquely positioned to solve the offensive line problem. but if there's one thing that's going to cause them, cause them issues and hold them back, I think it's very clearly that setting aside quarterback health. Yeah, because the offensive line was an issue last year in the offense, like even when the offense was at its peak, and it didn't really matter. They didn't have a run game,

and it didn't matter because they found ways around it, kind of like you said. And they had bad, like the offensive line had bad. They were bad in all the advanced metrics. They, like, didn't look like they were winning. Right. it just didn't matter. It didn't hold their offense back,

at least when it was, you know, when Tua was healthy and when everything was working. That's why I think there's like an even higher ceiling. Like even if Tua isn't what he was over the first two months of the season, like what if you add a running game onto this? Like an effective,

competent running game. Now it's even harder to cover Tyree Hill and Jalen Waddle. Like, I think this offense could be even scarier even if Tua isn't as good as he was last year, which is kind of scary to think about. Like, they've built an offense. I don't want to say it's, like, independent of the quarterback's performance. It's not quite to that level, like it's been in San Francisco.

But I don't think he has to be Superman for this offense to be a top five offense again. Do you think they will have a little bit more of an established run game this year? I do think so. I think Mike McDaniel is a problem solver. And he's had a good offseason to kind of solve the problems that. he didn't necessarily know we're going to pop up. Like, he's taking over this team, he's changing the offense, and look at the offense.

He kind of saw the offense change over the first month of season. I think now that he can look back at what they did in the passing game and how to work the run game into that, that there's going to be something there, something productive there. It'll be an interesting thing to watch. My theory is that, my theory is that he's gotten bored of designing run plays, and he's over. He has two of the fastest receivers in the entire game,

and he's just like, this is way more. fun, let's do this. They literally run like the same play like 10 times a game and it just works because it's like an RPO that isn't an RPO. It kind of is and like, I don't know. It works every time. The Dolmins playbook is just like a brochure.

It's a 13 year old kid who found a play that works in Madden. That's the only play he runs. Bams, spab. And that's not like an insult. Like that's a compliment. It's good. That's what every single, every single coach. as much as they love being

scheme lords and doing all of this. Like, every single coach in the entire NFL, if they could just line up and beat someone with the same thing over and over again and just be like, well, I'm better and stronger and faster than you and I can do this and you can't. They would do it

all the day, which is what Mike McDaniel is doing. Yeah. I like him more now that I've listened to like the Playcaller's podcast, Jordan Rodriguez. Great podcast. He was the one that I thought was the most relatable on that podcast. And I remember him being like, if you think your play calls are making that much of a difference, like, you're, you're an asshole, basically.

And like, it was refreshing to hear him say that. I don't know. I thought the other guys on the podcast kind of take their playcalling a little too seriously. Like, yeah, I'm a genius painting, painting a masterpiece here. It's like, calm down. Sean McVeigh, overly serious? Pell Shandot. Like all of those guys live in.

Like, they're, like, emotionally crumbling under the weight of their own success. Yeah. And he's just still, he's just ripping a vape on the sideline. I hope it lasts. Stay, stay cool, Mike. All right. We will move on, but let's take a quick break first. Team number three.

The team of the off season. The New York Jazz. That's who I have. I'm going to assume that you have them third as well, unless. That is who I have. Big Mac Jones guy over there. I was kind of surprised at how, I thought I was going to be a little more pessimistic about the Jets.

I was ready to predict a Denver Bronco situation, but I'm looking at their roster and their depth chart. And like, this is a good, decent coaching staff. Nathan O'Hackett, like, isn't as, I don't think he's as dangerous as an offensive coordinator. I don't even think he's really the offensive coordinator. They're just going to give him a headset and it's going to be unplugged. just going to be muted without his knowledge. A lot of great dinners in the city

with Aaron Rogers and have a nice time. We're all douging on Nathaniel Hackett, but Nathaniel Hackett has a nice life. It's all I'm saying. He's living his best life right now. He's probably doing an awesome powers impression somewhere. But you look at the depth chart, and like, this is a good team.

This is a good team. This is a scary pass rush. The defense, the secondary is so good, and we know Robert Sala can take advantage of a good defensive personnel grouping. The offensive line, like, there's a chance that it's a lot better than last year. Like, Mike Beckton, if he's in shape and healthy

at right tackle, that's a good player. Elijah Bear Tucker, they draft drove Tipman. I don't know. Now that I'm thinking about this, could maybe win a playoff game. Let's keep talking about the opposite line a little bit because there's, yeah, I mean, I think there's a chance that they're better.

I think they are severely hoping. that they're better. They're counting on a lot there. They are. Right? Duane Brown is 40, 40 years old? 4.0? That's a high number. Tomlinson had a hard year. Like, do you ever see those TikToks or like videos of people going around to all their friends and pointing out everybody's red flag? Oh, no. I have to be. Okay. It's a good genre of video. It's very fun. that is what I see in the Jets offensive line. It's just like, well, this guy's 40. This guy doesn't have knees.

This guy's a rookie. This guy was hurt last year. And maybe it all comes together. If it really does, then this is a very, very complete roster. This is a good exercise. I feel like this episode is a good exercise in what you were saying towards the beginning when we were talking about Hopkins of just like it is so easy in July

to sit around being like oh look at all these fun skill position players but often the lines define the floor of a team how much that's the case for the Jets let's say this is one of their weaker position groups

right and they could still be better they could still be meaningfully better than they last year. I really like Joe Tipman. I think if he, if his athletic potential is able to translate quickly and to take on the mental load at center, that would be a big deal for them. But let's say that it's not one of their better position groups. How much that matters is kind of an interesting thing to figure out because presumably the roots of this offense will still come, still have some origin in the San Francisco stuff and have a little bit of a relationship with what Rogers was doing with Matt Lafleur and what the Jets were doing with Mike Lafleur, even though he's obviously

gone, but had a relationship with Sala. And a lot of that is about timing and it takes some heat off the offensive line and should negate some of those potential issues. But also, in his heart of hearts, Aaron Rogers would like to let plays develop. And if Nathaniel Hackett is the guy there with his unplugged headset, who is going to stop him? Nobody. And if that's the case, then that's how, like, if we're, what's the opposite of troubleshooting? like concern trolling. If I'm here to concern troll the Jets,

like that is my concern. No, I think that's a fair concern. Because like one of the tensions between Rogers and LaFleyn, I think they had a good relationship based on everything that's been reported. But early on was like the audible thing. Control over the offense.

Like LeFleur was like, this is how we run the offense. It's sequence. We have to run plays in order for them to work. We have to set them up. And then Aaron Rogers was like, but I like to run audibles. Like, that's my thing.

I'm a field general. And there was a middle ground that was found. And I think it helped Rogers in some ways. And I don't know if he's going to get that help that he doesn't realize that he might need at this point in spirit. Like, that's my concern with it. But, like, the offensive line thing, a lot of their performance is going to be dictated by the quarterback, just because we know how much ownership a quarterback has over, like, pressure numbers, sack rates, and stuff like that. and I think Aaron Rogers is a chance

that he makes this offense line look a lot better just because he's calling protections, he's calling out blitz for the snap in ways that Zach Wilson obviously was not capable of doing because he's a young player or anybody that played for them in the last couple of years. Even Joe Flacco as a veteran,

that's never been his thing, his pre-snap work. So I think I'm willing to overlook the offensive line just because Aaron Rogers will have so much control over how it performs. I do wonder what happens if guys start to be injured. And like, I know, like, injury from year to year

isn't always consistent, but, like, injured guys tend to get injured. I do think staying healthy is, like, a player skill. And this offensive line hasn't had the ability to do that yet. They haven't proven themselves. They haven't proven that they can stay on the field together. And I do think, like you said, offensive line sets the floor for a team. I think it sets the ceiling for this team.

I think that the team, the offense is going to be fine. whether it's great or, like, good enough to get them to a title game. I think it depends on this offensive line and how the running games on it works. Because I do think, like, I have high hopes for the passing game. We've made a lot of jokes about Aaron Rodgers, but he is a good quarterback. Even last year, and he had a thumb injury. So I think that had a lot to do with some of his numbers going down, like especially his accuracy went down.

And I think that was the big difference between last year and the years when he won MVP. But, I mean, the talent is here. The wide receiver court is deep. We're making jokes about him bringing in his friends, but like Al-Lazar is a good player. He's a useful player, especially in this kind of system. Randall Cobb, like maybe that's a luxury, like that, I don't know, I don't think they should have acquiesced Aaron Rogers there,

but like Garrett Wilson is one of the best young receivers in the league. Nicole Hardman is, I think it's an underrated player that kind of got overshadowed just by the nature of Kansas City's offense. So this could be a top, I think the floor is like top 10 offense. And I can see this team being like a top five offense. I was kind of surprised at how goodness division is. You kind of think of like the AFC East. Like in the past, it's been kind of a laughing stock that New England just kind of walked to the title.

But now like all four teams, I can talk myself into winning 10 games this year. On that note, maybe let's take a quick break and then come back and talk about the Patriots because that just raised my eyebrows. New England 10 wins Make the case This team won what Seven games last year Eight games last year

And they had The 10th best point differential In the entire NFL Like I don't think this team was as bad As we made them out to be Like they had the worst Case scenario At offensive coordinator

Like we all worried about the Offence of Coordinator It was almost worse Than we thought it would be It like lived up to the in the same way Urban Myers, Jaguars' tenure, lived up to the height. It was a beautiful disaster. But they were still a competitive team that was capable of, like,

giving Cincinnati a good game. They blew out the Lions, everyone's favorite team. This is a decent team. They have a good coaching staff. And I don't think we can overstate the importance of Bill O'Brien replacing Matt Patricia's offensive coordinator. Like Bill O'Brien, say what you want about how he ran the tech. at the end of his tenure, but he was a good

offensive coordinator for that team, but he got Brian Hoyer to the playoffs. That's an amazing feat. And the pieces on offense aren't that bad. Like, on paper, they could have a decent offensive line. The wide receiver court, like, there's no explosive

player and everyone laughed at the Devante Parker contract. But Devonpe Parker, Kendrick Boren, Juju, and Tyrequant Thornt, who I really like, like, the flashes we saw on tape last year, as a rookie. I think he could be a useful piece.

I mean, and there's a world in which if Kishon Booty is suddenly exciting, you do add that element and that turns into a pretty good group. And then Ramandre Stevenson, I think, is a really good back and underrated back.

And then the defense, like, I think the defense has a chance to be even better than it was last year. Christian Gonzalez apparently is already the best corner in Patriots game, which could be off-season hype, but I think he profiles as the perfect quarterback for a Bill Belichick defense. And we're talking about one of the greatest secondary coaches of all time. Yeah, and they've been missing a guy like that the last since, I mean,

I think they look very, very good in the decision to let J.C. Jackson go. But they've been working for the last couple of years without a shutdown man guy. And Bill Belichick is always best when he has somebody. like that to work with. My question is just about the defense is just this. I mean, they finished third in defensive DVOA last year. All of the advanced metrics say that that was a really, really solid unit. Just going to give you the list of quarterbacks that they won games against.

The Dolphins with Teddy Bridgewater and Skyler Thompson. The Colt McCoy Cardinals. Zach Wilson twice. Sam Ellinger. Jacoby Brissette. Jared Gough. who's part of a very good offense last year, and then Mitchell Trevisky.

That sounds like the bottom of my quarterback rankings. It's not inspiring stuff. Again, by all, that defense in some of the losses against better teams and better quarterbacks still looked like a good unit. All of the advanced numbers say that they were a very good unit. I just want to throw out.

out there that for the Patriots to win a game last year, it took not what they are going to be faced with this year, which, you know, they come out of the gate. They play the Eagles in week one. The dolphins, who we just talked about being a potential Super Bowl team, the Aaron Rogers Jets, then the Cowboys, then they've got the Saints and the Raiders, then it's Bill's Dolphins again.

And just like you said, this division is pretty good. And they really lucked into some not terribly scary opponents and opponents who are dealing with not advantageous situations to get to their win total last season. The offensive coordinator thing is inevitably going to make a very significant difference. I just wonder if their record was kind of inflated last year. I think that's definitely fair. I think that not only will the offense take a big step,

I'm expecting like a massive step for the offense. I think there's a chance this defense takes another step too. And if that happens and they're like a top two defense with a top 15 offense and they kept some breaks, I think they definitely went 10 games. They make a wild card. We've seen that, like, two years ago they were able to do something similar with a similar setup. I think there, I think Matt Jones is going to be a better player this year.

Like, you get a better coach, better play caller, and a better quarterback, that usually means a big jump. And if, like, if Josh Fuchay takes another leap and, like, it's one of the better players and has, like, 12 sats and this defensive line. And then they draft a key on white. I don't know what he's going to be early on. But if he can be a useful player, I can see this defense being the best defense. in the NFL. Not one of the best. I could see being the best defense in NFL. If that's the case, I think they have a chance to win a lot of games.

Because I think, like, a good, a great defense keeps you in games. And one thing we could say about Bill Belichick, even still, he tends to win close games. I wonder if they have the pass rush for best defense in the entire NFL, but

I agree with you that they could be very scary to deal with. do you think they should have gone after Hopkins? Seems like they were the runner-up. I got to imagine it was just a money thing. I don't know. I think name-wise, there's a wide gap

between what DeAndre Hopkins has been and what DeVonty Parker has been. But I think, like, on paper at this point in their careers, like, there isn't a lot separate. And maybe I'm too low on DeAndre Hopkins just because we haven't really seen them play for two years. But, like, when guys miss significant time at this part of their career doesn't tend to get better when they come back.

It tends to get worse. So I don't think they missed out on much, honestly. And I think it's better. I'm assuming if they signed Hopkins, they wouldn't have extended Avanti Parker. So in that way, maybe it was like a bad move, a bad tradeoff. But they have a lot of good receivers. So I think it would have been hard to play the younger guys

or the guys that they're already financially committed to. Like, it's hard to get Thornton on the field if Hopkins is here. maybe Kendrick Bourne doesn't play as much because Hopkins is there. So I think this is going to allow some good players and good young players to get off the field at least. Poor Kendrick Bourne.

At least Patricia's gone now. Yeah. Routing for him. How do you avoid the Kyle Shanahan doghouse? Like one of the most infamous doghouse, especially for wide receivers. And then you fall into Matt Patricia. But you have-

smack dab into Matt Patricia over something. it was something that happened like in the preseason. And if you're Kendrick born, aren't you like... Or something? Unbelievable. If you're Kendrick born, you're like, okay, like being in Shannonhan's doghouse, which he never was, like, is one thing because he's one of the best offensive coaches ever. I'm not going to sit here and be in your doghouse. You can't even call an offense.

Oh, what a funny time. What a funny, funny time. The Matt Patricia Offensive Coordinator days. You remember when they were going to be like a Sean McVeigh team and they were like a week in the training game? They're like, oh, this is. isn't going to work. They're like, oh, wide zone. We don't know how to do it. That was a very, very, very funny time. Excited to see what comes out of their training camp this year. So from the sound of it, this is, this, this is a division that should stack up pretty well in the overall rankings.

Should we try to put it all together? So I really struggled with where to put, the bills in terms of in front or behind the 49ers. But I ended up putting them third just behind the chiefs and bangles on the strength of quarterback. That's exactly what I have. And I had like the same issue. I was like, at first, Cincinnati and Buffalo was kind of a toss up. And then I was like, okay, they go third. And then I was like, oh, San Francisco's third already.

And that was a tough one. but I think you're right. The quarterback position is solid and it's not with the 49ers and that's enough of the difference for me. Miami was really hard to rank for me. Just one more thing about

Buffalo. If we did it purely on the on-paper rosters, I would be pretty tempted to put them second. I just think what we've seen in terms of

Cincinnati's ability to play top quarterbacks, which when you're in the top five of the league, that's the ballgame. That's going to define if you win a Super Bowl or if you don't or how far you make in playoffs or just the strength of a season. They are just so good at that that I think they deserve the knot on that front.

If we were purely just sort of like ranking the rosters, I do think that there's a solid argument to say that the bills are deeper and more potent. But Big Lou, man. Yeah, like we said, like I said earlier, power rankings for me usually are, like, who would win in, like, a neutral playoff game? And I think, like, the point you make is a great one.

Like, Buffalo over the course of a regular season is probably better than Cincinnati, but, like, head-to-head in a one-on-one matchup, I'm taking Cincinnati just because of the pieces they have, including Big Luke, it's like a big factor. Okay. Miami. You said it was hard.

I settled on right after Baltimore, right before Jacksonville. That's exactly what I did. I think that's right. Yeah. Like, they're an unproven team, but I would

I would take the Ravens head to head against them right now, even though, I mean, look, we saw it, right? But I do think that Baltimore is a better team than they were the last time they played each other and I also feel the same

in the opposite direction with the Jaguars. Head to head I would pick Miami over Jacksonville. Yeah, same. So where did you end up putting the Jets? So I put the Jets just behind the Seahawks and ahead of the lines. I put them just ahead of the Seahawks

but I'm willing to put Seattle. I'm always willing to go to back for Gino. But here's my thinking is that I think they have similar setups on the offense where it's like a quarterback coming off a year that doesn't match his production from past years and we don't know where, like, how that's going to go. You have a very good receiving core on both sides.

And then offensive line, there are questions, especially on the interior. I'm more confident in, the Jets defense though. Like we've seen the Jets defense good. Yeah. So here's how I thought about it.

And I would be, I'm willing to put them in just behind Jacksonville and ahead of Seattle. I think the most likely outcome is that that is true, is that there are slightly better, you know, we're talking about very small distinctions, but that they're a slightly better team. I don't think if one of these teams has like a disaster season, I think it is more likely to be the Jets than the Seahawks.

So there's a little bit of couching like this could go boom in a way that I don't think that like Gino and Pete Carroll right now are going to have that happen. I don't think that's going to happen. I think I think the Jets look like people have varying opinions on is a playoff birth and and a wildcard win enough to justify the Aaron Rogers trade. My personal opinion, and I know a lot of Jets fans, is that it is, is that that's a compelling and exciting and vibrant season of football, the likes of which they have not seen very much in recent decades.

So I think that that would do it. Some people don't. I know Ben Solac feels very strongly that, like, if they don't win a Super Bowl or something, than all of this was for not. But that's sort of, that's what I expect the playing field to be for the Jets. I just, I did, I feel like I discounted them just a little bit because there is, there's more volatility.

But the most likely outcome to me, I think probably it makes sense to say that they would be just ahead of Seattle. So I'm, I feel like, I can put that in. I feel like all of our perception. are so warped on the Jets, it's like you either think this could possibly be Brady's bucks or it's going to be Russ's Broncos

and there's no in between. When really, like, the most likely outcome is... It will be, yeah. It'll be in between. There'll be a playoff team and then they'll lose. And cool. I think I'm like Zen with that. I wonder if there would be as much pessimism

if Russ Denver doesn't happen last year. I don't think any of us are even like talking about this, like, there's disaster potential if that's the case. And maybe I'm wrong about that because Aaron Rogers is a very polarizing person. Finish that sentence. I don't know how to finish that sentence. It's not getting fired. He's an odd duck.

Yeah. So I think they're going to be a good team and not a great team. And that's fine. Good team. And that's fine. Good team the New York Jets. I'm just, that's saying something. Okay.

than the Patriots. See, this is where I think we're going to disagree. I put the Patriots right behind the Chargers and right ahead of Atlanta. Maybe you're higher. I didn't put... No, I'm... So I'm only one spot lower on them.

I put them behind Atlanta. You were shocked by 10 wins and you put them low. Right behind the Chargers? I was shocked by 10 wins from you. that's a good point I mean 10 wins is a lot of

like part of this though is the division conversation and I think a very good AFC East team might be floating around 500 just because they're all like all of these teams are in to some degree going to cannibalize

each other and I do think the Patriots are squarely the fourth place team. And I see the paths for the defense to be even better this year. And I think they were good last year. I just wonder, like, I wonder if they're a touch overrated as having been one of the absolute best defensive units last year.

But so I see it. Yeah. I do agree that, like, statistically, I don't think they're going to be as good as they were because they're not going to face this road. gallery of terrible quarterbacks. But I think like when we watch, we're going to be like, this is a better defense.

This is a better defense. The results aren't as good, but like in a game and a one-off game, in the playoffs maybe, I think they have a better chance of hanging with Josh Allen, which they haven't been able to do at all over the last couple of years. Yeah.

I put them over Atlanta just because those quarterbacks that you listed off earlier, Desmond Ritter fits in with that group. All right, fine. Our 12th place team for now, the Patriots, just behind the Chargers. That feels fair. I just,

10 wins in the AFC East to me this year means you're a very good team. You're right about that, for sure. I did, I said that without looking at their schedule, and, like, the beginning of their schedule is rough, and they don't get a lot of breaks from that. There are a couple, like, stretches where they play the Raiders in another bad team in a row,

but like you get like Mahomes at some point. Yeah, that's, it's a, it's a tough schedule. It's a toughie. All right. Where it stands now, we just have the NFC East left.

And we will add them to Chief Spangles, Bills, 49ers, Ravens, Dolphins, Jaguars, Jets, Seahawks. Wow. Top nine, only two teams from the NFC. That makes sense. Lions, Chargers, Patriots, Falcons, Broncos, Browns, Vikings, Colts, Packers, Steelers, Saints, Titans, Raiders, Panthers, Bears, Rams, Bucks, Texans, Cardinals.

Good stuff. This has been the Ringer NFL show. I'm Norprinciotti. He's Stephen Ruiz. Stephen and Ben Solac will be back on this feed on Friday, answering the big questions that will define the NFL. Next season and going forward, thank you, as always. John Anderson for production on this episode and to Arduna Ramqual and Conorne Evans for additional production supervision. And to you for listening.