The Ringer NFL Show - 2023 NFL Power Rankings: NFC East

Episode Date: July 25, 2023

Nora Princiotti and Steven Ruiz open by discussing the Giants and Saquon Barkley's agreement to a one-year extension. They then rank the teams in the NFC East from best to worst and adjust their NFL rankings thus far. Hosts: Nora Princiotti and Steven Ruiz Associate Producer: Stefan Anderson Additional Production Supervision: Arjuna Ramgopal and Conor Nevins Musical Elements: Devon Renaldo Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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How's that, Rye? I reckon I'll do. Yeah, man. Hello and welcome to the Ringer NFL show. I'm Nora Princeiati, and I am here as always with Stephen Reed. Stephen, say hello. Hello. Should I say anything else?

No, that was it. That was great. Just absolutely a close listener. Doing what he's asked. Team player, as usual, I would expect nothing less. We are here because we are going to be finishing up on the precipice of training camp.

Training camp starting for a bunch of teams around the league today. We are going to be finishing up our power ranking series with the NFC East. But first, just this morning, there was some news out of the NFC East. And we could talk about this a little bit more when we talked about the Giants. But just to hit it off the top,

Sequin Barclay, one of the several running backs who have been dissatisfied after having been franchise tagged and failing to reach a long-term agreement with their teams ahead of the deadline, did agree to a one-year deal with the Giants this morning. the reason he can do that is because franchise tag players can negotiate a new one-year deal.

They just can't, after the deadline has passed, negotiate anything longer than that. So the deal is a one-year, $11 million contract with a $2 million signing bonus. The effective difference between that and the tag is a little less than $1,900,000 more than he would have gotten on the tag. the other thing is that he gets the bonus now. I don't know what $2 million up front means to Saquan Barkley, but a dollar today is worth more than a dollar tomorrow, so good for him.

It's not a super, super meaningful difference, but it's something, right? Yeah. And it also means that the training camp hold out that, you know, he talked about on a podcast, as being something that he potentially could feel like he has to do, didn't want to do, but was considering doing. I think that ends here, and it seems like that means that he will be there.

This is their resolution. According to Adam Schaefter, they can tag him again next year. One of the things that was talked about ahead of this happening was the idea that maybe something he could try or other running backs, although I think Seekon probably had more leverage than someone like a Josh Jacobs or a Tony Pollard. He could have tried to negotiate for an agreement that the Giants would not use the tag on him next year. That did not happen. So they can go ahead and do this again in the year if they want to.

This is part of an overall series of news stories around running backs who were very concerned about their positional value. there was a Zoom call with a bunch of those guys led by Austin Neckler on Saturday, just about the future of the position, the future of the value of the position. There's guys like Delvin Cook and Zeke Elliott who are just still out there. So, you know, we'll see what happens there before the start of the season or potentially during the season, I guess. We've obviously had a lot of positional value conversations around running backs, but I do think there are some distinctions here. what's been your reaction to all of this, Stephen?

I mean, I think I was certainly one of those people like doing the don't pay running backs thing like a year or two ago. But at a certain point, I think there is a shift in thinking. And I think we've already passed that point where we've gone from just focusing on on-field value and what these guys provide for the team, basically. And I think that's like missing the whole conversation. I mean, these guys are doing one of the more dangerous jobs on the field, as evidenced by the fact that they have this tremendously short shelf life. And I think that has to be factored into their pay because it's not that like the running back position doesn't matter.

Like going back to the original stance, like the stat boy stance on running backs, I think it's, I think it's that there's a lot of talented running backs and their production is somewhat replaceable. but the function they serve on the field isn't replaceable. And I think that's like the conversation. That's where the conversation needs to go. And I think like when you hear some people, I don't, this is not going to happen, but you hear people being like, oh, the running backs need a union. Maybe they kind of do because they are put in this unique position that you don't really see elsewhere on the field. Like even like a safety.

Like that's the defensive version of being a running back. Those are the guys that are having a hard time getting paid, what they feel like they should get paid, they still get monster contracts every now and that. Like when a star safety hits free agency, they get paid. Like, Jesse Bates got paid. That doesn't happen with running back. So I think this is very unique. And I think it's a conversation that we're not doing any justice if we just focus on

positional value. We'll talk about Saquan's like value to the team, but like on the field. But like in that locker room, there's no way to measure that. Your, your scatter charts aren't going to be able to measure what that means. Like if they did not pay Sequin and he comes in late or whatever and he's disgruntled, like that has an effect on the locker room. And I think you have to pay one of your leaders. And it wasn't like a big raise, but I think it is symbolic. And it does kind of help because there is like that franchise tag escalator, I guess.

Like you get 25% of what your salary was last year. So like a $1 million boost is actually like a $2.5 million boost the next year. I don't know. But I think there is something there. He did get something out of it. Not quite. I'm doing my mouth wrong. Yeah, I gave you.

It would like $1.1.2 million. Yeah, that's right. I can't do math. I'm sorry. But if you add them all together, if you add them all together, then yes. But yeah, I think it's symbolic. I don't think it's a win for running backs by any mean, but I do think that it's something the Giants had to do.

They had to give them something, and they did. Yeah, it's not particularly, it's not a huge bump, obviously, but I agree with you that it's symbolic. I also do think that that's illustrative of the fact that these guys just have very little leverage. Because Sequin should have the most of all of them. He's really, really important to that offense. They've, you know, Brian Dable historically is a past first guy. So it's possible that they want to look a little bit different from that.

But the symbiosis between how he played last season and how Daniel Jones played last season, even if they are planning to make some tweaks this year, was so critical to their success. and he was their most explosive player. You know, maybe if Darren Waller's healthy, those two are in competition this year for that title. But they need, this offense needs playmakers. And Sequin was really the one that they had last year. So it would have been a major issue for them, I believe,

to be going through the season without him isn't the right way to frame it, right? because the financial cost of holding out of games is so significant, but I don't think that they were going to be in that place. But just to be in, just to have a bad relationship with one of your most important offensive players, that is probably worth $900,000 to the Giants. And actually, in a lot of cases, it would probably be worth more, but that just goes to show the situation a lot of these guys are in. You mentioned the talk of do the running back Canadian Union.

And I agree with you. I think that would be a hard thing to accomplish. You're up against a lot of competing interests, the guys who are at the bottom of rosters or in the offseason fighting to make the 53 and wouldn't want to be part of something that might involve withholding labor. Or you're talking about the relationship between,

okay, how does that group fit within the greater NFLPA? What's the relationship there? there are other positions safety you mentioned tight end where players have complaints about how much they are generally compensated relative to other positions so there's a lot of dynamics that would need to get figured out there so I'm not saying that I think that is going to happen either I do think that would be I think that's close to the only answer unfortunately I think you know and it's slightly encouraging to see that they're all getting on Zoom together because collective action for something like this is really the only.

only pathway because when we talk about running back value, a lot, you know, this is, look, the NFL is a capitalistic enterprise. These are positional market forces, ultimately. And I think one distinction that gets lost is we're not talking about running back value as it relates to demand. Teams need these guys. They need good ones. I think even that's on the up swing a little bit when more and more defenses have linemen and linebackers who have been chosen for their ability to stop the pass and for when they are stopping the run to be defending primarily these wide zone schemes. Guys who can hit it up the middle are maybe starting to have a little bit of a renaissance. I think that's going to be an incredibly interesting thing to watch

this season if that continues. The year is. The year. issue is is the supply. It's too easy for the chiefs to just get an Isaiah Pacheco in the in the 200s in the draft. So if these teams believe that they can get good guys and guys who can perform well for them pretty much anywhere at pretty much no cost, that's why they don't want to pay the special ones. It's not because they don't have important roles in offenses and it's not because they don't perform tasks that are valuable in terms of winning football games. It's that they think they can get them anywhere. And that hasn't exactly been proven wrong.

That's why I think you're right to bring sort of a morality into it, which is that these are guys who, you know, they don't get long contracts because their body of work is not typically, is on the shorter end for positions in a game where careers are already. incredibly short. They're also guys who have used a lot of their good years mostly unpaid, though obviously that's changing someone, which is good, in college.

And if they have a different set of concerns, the most effective way to change that, right, is to cut off the supply, because the supply is what's killing them. Yeah.

Tough thing to, tough pill to swallow, tough thing to accomplish. but I think we would like if something like that ever were to happen, all of the conversations around running backs would change really fast because we talk about it because of where the intersection of supply and demand is, not because they don't perform valuable roles on these teams. I think that's the key point. And like I think the solution is some type of financial system that is independent of.

on-field performance, like some type of hazard pay that all running backs get, they get this amount of money every year if they play in the league. I think that's the only way to work around it because it's always going to turn into this competitive thing because it's NFL teams looking for edges, and roster construction is such a big deal in the NFL. It's one of the things, it's like one of the only things we talk about during the offseason. So figuring out how to work around it, it's going to be tough. And it's going to take more than this group of running backs on Zoom. and it's going to take like real solidarity between them. Because one of the problems with like CBA negotiations,

especially in sports, is like these wide gaps between the guys that are making a bunch of money, the superstars and the guys that are barely hanging on who don't necessarily have like a voice in the room. So it's going to be tough. I don't know. But there's no easy answer. But it is a problem.

I don't think it's something you can just ignore. And there are people on Twitter. They're like, oh, why do we care about paying running backs now? like a year ago, we weren't. Yeah, that's how like change in thinking works. Like at one point, we think, we don't think that things a problem and then we realize that it is. And then we address it.

And I think that's something that definitely needs to happen over the next couple of years. The NFL has enough money to solve this problem. Totally. All right. We can talk a little bit more about Seikon within the New York offense when we get to the Giants, which we will do because it's NFC's time. First, so let's take a quick break. Okay.

We are back. I could ask you, Stephen, who your top team in the NFC East is. I'm going to assume it was the one who was in the Super Bowl

last year. Good call. Shocker. Absolute shocker here on the final installment of the Ringer NFL Power Rankings Divisional Preview Series.

Yeah, the Eagles are number one for me as well. Basically, everyone's back. The largest change, I think, is probably that

Jonathan Gannon is in Arizona now, and I'm not even sure that that's a bad thing. It might not be. This is quite possibly the best roster in the NFL. I think it's certainly the best roster in the trenches in the NFL. What is stopping the Eagles from returning to the Super Bowl? Okay, let me just add this disclaimer because I don't want this clipped in it.

Like someone saying like, oh, Stephen Ruiz thinks the Eagles are going to be terrible this year. I am simply making... Everyone get their clips ready. I'm simply making the case for how things could go back. Because I agree with everything you just said. This is the best roster. I think it's the best team of the NFC by far. especially with what's going on in San Francisco

and their quarterback position, which is still kind of unsettled. But I think I look at the defense and a little bit of regression in terms of sacks and interceptions. When you really break down why this defense was so good into like components, this is what I did.

I looked at their total EPA and then I kind of broke it down into like little sections, little components. And sacks and interceptions were by far the thing that was really driving their performance. when they didn't have an interception or a sack on a dropback, they were like a mid-defense, which I think speaks to like their coverage unit.

They obviously have two good corners, but like their safety and linebacker unit was, you know, whatever. And I think that shows up in the stats. And these guys were historically good at getting sacks last year. I don't know if you remember, but they had a record-setting sack total. And they added 123 points. on sacks alone.

The next best team was the 49ers who have a very good defensive line and they were around like the 90s. Like there was like a 30 point gap basically. And like no matter what, they're not going to be able to match that. It's unrealistic. Danny.

Danny Hyfitz, I feel like has always liked to point out that stat about the Jaguar's defensive line having basically as many pressures but like half as many sacks, which I think is probably says more about what was happening in Jacksonville than in Philly,

but it says a little bit about what was happening in Philly as well. It's like unsustainably historic production. I'm not trying to say it was fluky or fake. It's just like any time you have that type of season, it's hard to replicate. And then on top of that, like the interceptions, they were fifth in the NFL and like EPA gained on interceptions.

And that's a stat that's notoriously volatile year to year. That's really going to be hard to replicate. So you add those two things together. They lose their defensive coordinator. staying healthy again is going to be a hard thing. So I think there is some reason to expect some regression from the defense. And then on the other side of the ball, you have all of the pieces are backed. I think the running back room is even better.

I mean, I expect Chalid Hurts to get better. We've seen it every year over the last four years of his career. But they have a first-time play call. The best game he's played was the last one he played. The arrow is still pointing up. but they have a first time play caller who has never called plays on any level. And one of the big reasons, offense was so good was Shane Steichen,

who went to Indianapolis and they lose him for Brian Johnson. I don't know. I don't, like, we don't know what to expect out of the play call. I think there's enough talent that it's like too good to fail, but that's still a thing that might matter in the playoffs, starting big games against, like, Dallas, against teams that have similar talent.

So that's my reason for, like, pessimism, but, like, they're too good. This roster's too good. They're too deep. They're too good. They're well coached. I have no qualms about putting this team number one. My question is, where do we put them in the hierarchy of the league? And that's a discussion for later.

Let's stay on the defense for a second, because you pointed out where there's potential for regression in terms of what they're able to do up front with the sack totals. and getting turnovers in secondary. The area where it seems like there is, I think I will be overusing the word regression to call this positive regression, but just room for improvement and potential for improvement

would be the middle of the field. Because their coverage of the middle of the field last year was the thing that they got picked on in the Super Bowl. It was one of the weaker areas of the team. Now, look, they also lost some of those guys. They lost T.J. Edwards. They lost Kaiser White. Chauncey Gardner Johnson, who by the way,

was injured in practice for Detroit, but is apparently okay, according to Dan Campbell, so that's good for the Lions. Marcus Epps, they lose some of those bodies. Now, that was, I think, a weak spot for the defense. And they are, I would imagine, hoping that a healthy Nacobi Dean is a big difference maker. Seems like they're planning on him having a major role.

He's been wearing the green dot at least a certain amount in their offseason practices. With that and hoping for another good year out of Reed Blankenship, what do you think the potential for that area of the defense to get better is? I think it's like a schematic question to me. That's what I had, the way to kind of make up for the regression that I think we're almost certainly going to see in the SAC department is by just getting better at coverage. Like, I thought when teams, when quarterbacks were able to avoid the negative plays,

like when quarterbacks didn't throw interceptions and mostly avoided sacks, because this was a hard thing to do against his team, they kind of struggle. They kind of struggled the cover guys. There were openings in the defense. And I think Sean decided bringing him in a Vic Fangio guy is, obviously Vic Fangio was with the team last year. He was a consultant late down the stretch of the season. So I think there's some overlap there. I think there's some continuity. They did some Fangio type stuff, but I think you're going to see a more expanded package. And I think that's how you kind of make up for it. You just

get better in coverage. You get more sound and coverage. And I thought you brought up a great point. I think the middle of the field is going to be very important taking that away because I do think quarterbacks are going to have a bit more time to throw. I mean, you lose like Javon Hargrave. That's that's a move that's going to matter. Hassan Redick is going to have a hard time replicating that sack production. I think he's a very good player, but his sack numbers were a little tiny bit inflated. So, yeah, I think it's like a schematic coverage thing.

Getting better on the back end is going to help them and help them make up for whatever they lose on the front end. And some of that, some of what happens up front is going to depend on what does Jalen Carter look like? Right. How immediately is he an impact player? is a hand-impact player. We'll see all of that. There are some

sliding levers there. Still think this is among the best teams in the NFL and clearly the best team in the division and potentially the conference, but we'll see. I do think Jordan Davis needs a big year. I think that's a big key because low-key this team wasn't the best set defending

the run. I think they sacrificed that aggressive nature when getting after the quarterback for some soundness in the run game. And I think Jordan Davis is like a guy who can fix that all on his own. He's a very large man. And I think if he starts to play well and gets more comfortable, which

he's going back to the type of defense he played at Georgia in Sean the size defense. So I think there is some reason to hope that he can kind of replicate the effect he had on Georgia's defense. They certainly have the same players around and they keep tracking these guys. So I think he's one of the

X factors here. Yeah, I think that that's a big deal. I mean, they were in the 20s in rushing success rate and yards after contact allowed. some of that, I think, is by design, but just you're sacrificing a little bit of that, as you said, for the explosiveness for the sack totals. But he's large.

So good stuff. I had the Cowboys second. I do too. Okay. I think that's a pretty clear call, but... Right. I didn't think about... Did you think about it?

No. But sometimes you get crazy, Stephen. I don't know. I don't know. my concerns with Dallas to the extent that I have them. I shouldn't necessarily start with that because they're a very good team. It's coaching. This roster, I think, is really good and better than it was last year

because of the additions of Stefani Elmore and Brandon Cooks, both of whom I think are going to be significant, are just going to make more things possible, particularly what Cooks can do, just adding a vertical threat to that offense, allowing Cady Lamb to be more thoroughly, that underneath guy that is when he's at his best. It's a really good team.

The fact that the offensive reins are being so thoroughly handed to Mike McCarthy is, is concerning to me because I think their offense was not doing them any favors last year. DAC is a quarterback who I really like, but who didn't have a great year last year. Some of that is on him. Some of that is on the number of tight window throws that he was asked to make. I don't know that I see a ton of evidence other than the Cook's move, I suppose, that that stuff is changing.

And that is the only thing that gives me pause, not in terms of saying that this is the team that goes second, but just in terms of saying this is a Super Bowl contender. No, I think that's fair, because I think those little things make the difference when you're playing against good teams.

And like Mike McCarthy, let's say he is more involved in the offense, and that doesn't necessarily mean he's going to be calling the offense. Like, that takes something off your plate in terms of, like, game management. And, like, game management has never been a thing that Mike McCarthy has excelled at.

Like, he needs all the help he can get. And if he's really, like, in tune with the office, offense and focused on what the offense is doing, that might be tougher to do. And it might make his job a little harder as a head coach. And then you add it on the layer that the last time we saw Mike McCarthy really have his hands on an offense, it didn't go so well. And it didn't go so well with one of the best quarterbacks we have ever seen play.

And that quarterback was not a fan of Mike McCarthy's work, according to like the reports that came out after that. So I'm with you there. Like I think there's reason to believe that this offense is going to regress positively. there's that word again. Just because of the interceptions, I don't think Dax's going to lead the NFL and interceptions again.

But I don't know what a Brian Schottenheimer or Mike McCarthy offense looks like. I don't know what a Mike McCarthy, Brian Schottenheimer collab looks like at all. Because in my mind, these are like two separate offenses. And like while Brian Schontheimer kind of did good in Seattle and like building that offense around Russ,

that's like a weird offense that doesn't apply to this situation. And any other time we've seen Brian Schottenheimer or run in offense, it hasn't been good. And it's been bad in all the ways that we like to complain about offenses. Like it's not imaginative, like the condensed formations, not enough receivers on the field.

So I'm skeptical about that. But I think DAC is good enough to kind of solve some of those problems. And I think this receiving core, if Brandon Cooks is healthy, and Michael Gallup kind of bounces back from last year because he was, it was not good last year. And I think it was the effects of coming back from injury. I think there's a chance where like this team is too

talented for it not to matter, for it to matter. But I agree with you. In those games where like it's a one possession game, I do not trust this coaching staff to get the most out of this team. And let me exclude Dan Quinn from that conversation. I just mean on the offensive side. Absolutely. All props to Dan Quinn.

We love you. Continue thriving. King. So that's the hope, right? That's the version where this is all great. Is just the talent. in the receiver room in particular gets everybody to do the right thing

and gets everybody into place and this works out really well. The other possibility and I think this is where this is the parallel to the Russell Wilson, Seattle days that you're worried about, right? Is that a month into the season

we're having a let-dap cook conversation every week because this was a 50-50 run-pass split team last year. They are now thin, running back. I'm not sure which direction more Mike McCarthy

points the arrow in. They hired a new offensive line coach in Mike Solari who was previously on Tom Landry's staff. I'm not necessarily expecting him to be, you know, all love to Mike Solari. I'm just not

necessarily expecting him to be like a new school philosophy guy. and they're down a Zieg Elliott, who is not a $90 million player, but is useful. Right. So that is my worry, is that the great players on this team

are not going to be, there's two layers to it, right? Because sometimes I think DAC was put in objectively bad situations last year, just primarily with the amount of tight window throws he was asked to make. But I also worry about just the maximization of the talent on this offensive roster.

Because they should throw the ball more than 50% of the time. It's not about the numbers, but they should do that. That should happen. That should happen. And I do wonder how the loss of Zieg impacts this offense. I think it impacts it in ways that are harder to like kind of perceive just

because of like his role in setting the protections and as a past Blocker on third down. I really feel like Dak had a lot of trust in him. And that was one of the reasons I feel like Tony Pollard, despite the disparity in their

production, had trouble getting onto the field just because you need it seek to be around to pick up blitzes. And he picked up the tough yardage in the run game. And losing that component to the offense, I think it's going to have

a big impact. I think it might be hard to recognize, but I think it's going to have a big impact. And I think one of the ways it will is, like, as bad as Dallas was with negative plays and interceptions, they were really good at avoiding sacks. I think Dak had a large role in that, but I think Zika had his large hand in that, too. And I wonder if, like, even if the interceptions go down, but the sacks go up, I wonder if that just offsets each other. And we have the same offense we saw last year where it was certainly good. And we saw the highs were really high, but the lows were really low, too.

and there was inconsistency issues. And that was the case throughout Kellynne as offensive coordinator. So I don't know. I think this is a good team. I still think it's a team that needs to be carried by its defense, as it kind of was at times last year. And I think it's another year where we might be talking about

there being too much on Dax plate and him pressing. And I wouldn't be surprised if, like, interceptions aren't the problem that they were last year, but they are not, you know, maybe they're like below average interceptions. Well, I'm glad you pointed out that this team will probably be led by the defense

because we started off talking a bunch about the offense because there are questions and I think there's a little bit more variability. I think this is easily a top five defensive roster, especially when you factor in the job that Dan Quinn has done with this defense. They could end up, if they end up the best defense in the NFL, I will be not remotely surprised.

One more note just because you mentioned some of the past protection questions now that Zeeke is not with them. The other thing they're dealing with is Zach Martin has so far not gone out to Ocknard for their training camp because he would also like a raise. So we'll see what happens. I'm going to assume that gets done or figured out. in some way, shape, or form. One thing about the Cowboys is, like,

they'll pay their stars. They'll just sort of give you money if you ask for it. So I figure that gets resolved. But so far, there is an issue there. And obviously not having your best offensive linemen would not be great for them. No, it would not. I like to blame Madden for this holdout.

Like the Madden ratings came out. I don't know if you saw this. And they named Zach Martin a 99 overall, which is like the highest you can. it and then he holds out the next day. And the funniest layer to that is that the guy that does the ratings for Madden is a Cowboys fan. So he may have inadvertently

ruined the offensive line. Good job. Hoisted on your own petard. That's very funny. All right, let's take a quick break and finish up at the last two. All right, we're back. Two teams left.

Steven, tell me where you went with the number three team in the NFCs, because this got a little hard for me. Yeah, this was hard for me, but it came back to the quarterback position, which is an odd thing to say when one of those quarterbacks is Danny Jones. But I think the gap at quarterback is enough for me to pick the Giants here. I think these teams were like closely matched. And like down the stretch, they had that, I think it was like a three-week stretch where they played each other twice. And that was like a big deal. And we saw how close these teams were.

But I would say Washington either got worse at quarterback or remained stagnant. And that's assuming that they're going to give Hal the start. I would start Jacoby Percett coming off last year. I thought he proved that he was worthy of a starting spot in this league. I don't know if Hal did that in his cameo appearances at the end of the year. But if they are going to start how, which I think is probably the better long-term move, just because who's available in the draft and what they need at quarterback. But if they are starting...

It's a very funny situation, though, because I kind of... I want them to start Sam Howell. I think he's interesting and I want to see what he can do. I also, every time I read something about their commitment to Sam Howell, I go, does Ron Rivera know he's going to get fired? Like, does he know that this is year four and a new guy just bought the team? Like, you have to make the playoffs this year. Or just history says that that's not your job anymore.

And I don't know that I totally, I don't think he's done a perfect job there, but I think Ron Rivera is a good coach and a good, just sort of organizational leader in general. And that is a hard job to have and the fact that he's lasted this long in it, right? There's something to be said for that. It's like he doesn't know. Like, Sam Howell is not the guy.

Like, this is normally when you see, when you see, and not that this always works out, right? But this is when you see coaches and front offices shell out for like a veteran retread and be like, you know what? Okay, we're hoping we get a lot out of the defensive line. We've got really good receivers. Let's just get somebody who knows what they're doing. We're going to try to win nine, ten games, sneak into the playoffs.

Everybody keeps their job. They're like, you know what? Let's make a move for three, four years down the line and see what we have in Sam Howell. cool I would do it but I think we're probably all the better for it so thank you thank you Ron Rivera and what are you doing it's it's crazy

and I think the the funniest part of that was when they were like oh yeah he's got a little Brock Purdy in him like Ron Rivera said that and I was like you need more than than Brock Purdy to save the job man Brock Purdy is not he's not even Brock Purdy he's like they could see some Brock Purdy in him

Brock Purdy is not walking through that door. Brock Purdy has turned this league upside down. Absolutely no person involved in the National Football League. Myself included, honestly, is able to get through a conversation about Brock Purdy without saying something absolutely deranged. We have like no idea who Brock Purdy. Like, Brock Purdy? But like...

Remember the draft in every single time? Like, once we got past the first round, every quarterback was. oh, this year's Brock Purdy, could he be? This year's Brock Purdy? Here's my question. Maybe? Is Howell, who is like kind of undersized,

kind of like that runaround style of quarterback who's tough? And like he could follow the offense, kind of, but he likes to go into freelance mode a little bit. Is he starting if Brock Purdy doesn't have the year he had last year? Like, is Ron Rivera saying, oh, howl can be a guy that we, that could start for us?

if Brock Purdy doesn't lay out the model, lay out the blueprint for it. I honestly think that we're having a different conversation now if Brock Purdy doesn't happen. That's not good. No, it's not. That's not a good.

Mr. Irrelevant, winning some games and looking pretty, I like Brock Purdy. I too am Brock Purdy-pilled, as we all are. I'm not. Can I go on the record and say I'm not Brock Purdy-Pilled? Mr. Irrelevant,

winning some games within like the the most comfortable offense in the league with unbelievable skill position players and then ripping his elbow up. That's not something, that shouldn't shift the paradigm. But apparently that.

I think me and Ben need to do a Brock Purdy episode. I, like, honestly, we should do Brock Pretty Week. Brick Pretty Week here at the ringer. I think we'd have a lot of content. Like the guy literally, he couldn't throw a football

and they stayed in the game for like two quarters. Okay, how did this become a Brockford discussion? That's what he does. He's a vampire. So who's your fourth team in the NFC West? We're just switching the pods to the... I put the Giants last. And I think, like,

and the point you made about when these teams played each other last year. Like, it was, those were great games. And these are, they're really, really close. And when we get to the overall rankings, I think we'll see some of that. I think this, the quarterback question is the question. Washington's roster is really good, man.

Yeah. And I think this is, I worry a little bit that if the Giants don't have some of... Now, the defensive line in New York could actually end up being better because those guys are young and I think actually on both sides of the ball, the best possible outcome for the Giants

involves the lines taking steps if you get Evan Neal on a similar development track to Andrew Thomas, right? Like all of a sudden, that's a good offensive line. and towards the end of last season, they'd become scary on the defensive line and if we see those young guys continue to develop, that's going to be a massive, massive strength for them.

I still worry about the linebackers. This is another sort of middle of the field concerns situation defensively. We know what they're going to be with Mink Martindale. And I do think that the secondary sort of against all odds kind of got it together and understood what they needed to do towards the end of last year. And then I love the Deontay Banks pick. I think that's going to be a perfect fit for them.

I just, I think they got away with a lot last year and I wonder if they're going to be able to do it again. You know, it's funny because they beat the pants off the Vikings and the playoffs, but there is data. Tom Bliss, who's a data scientist for the NFL,

calculates who the luckiest teams were. And the funny thing is that the Giants over the course of last season by those metrics, which includes factors in dropped interceptions, dropped passes, missed kicks, fumble recoveries, stuff like that. The Giants were actually luckier than the Vikings. They were the luckiest team in the NFL last year. The other funny thing about that, though, is that the commanders were second. So if we talk about who is getting good bounces, and I'm not, just by the eye-telling,

the Giants were not fraudulent in the way that the Vikings were. And we saw that very clearly in the playoffs. But there are a lot of areas where you're expecting a little bit of regression. And then offensively, I just still don't, I still don't understand. I think a lot clicked into view for me when there started to be reporting about how badly they wanted Jordan Madison. and then we're not able to get that done in the draft. Because, and maybe Darren Waller ends up doing some of this.

I just, it just still seems to me that they have 900 slot receivers, and I don't understand how this offense fits together. I do really trust the coaching staff. I trust the trajectory that they're on. So I think they will be a good team. I hope that they will try to introduce a little, bit more of a downfield element

because some of that is personnel but some of that is just like they really range Daniel Jones in with the intention of cutting down on the turnovers. That worked, but maybe you can try to be tactful with it,

bring a little bit of that stuff back. It's a good team. The commander's skill position groups, I think that's the roster There's just a tad more impressive to me across the board, whereas I think the Giants have some really good units and then some areas of concern.

But they are so close to me. Yeah, I kind of misremembered how the Giants season went last year. And I think it's the Vikings win. Like it kind of warps your perception of what this team did down the stretch. Like they won two games out of their last like seven down the stretch. It's not like they went into the playoffs flying high. they have that good game against the Vikings they almost gave it away at the end

and then they get blown out by the Eagles so I think that does speak to how far this team has to go. I just I expect the offense to be better and I expect the defense to be I mean there was a point when they were just starting anybody at cornerback last year and I think

that that should help and especially with a winked martindale defense which we've seen like for a couple years in a row maybe they said something about wink martindale and what he asked him his secondary, but I think there's going to be some positive regression there. And I think it does come down to how much faith we have in dayball. Because one thing we could say about Saquan's year last year is, like, it wasn't very efficient.

I do think he was the key to the offense, but he wasn't efficient. He almost had to sacrifice his own production to get the best out of this offense. Like in terms of receiving touches, he lost the most EPA in the NFL last year. He lost 18. I'm saying he, it wasn't on him. the offense lost that EPA on those touches. And then he was negative EPA in the run game. But when you drill down into his stats,

he was at the top of the league in like over-expectation stats, which are based on like who's in the box, how many players in the box, how well the play is blocked, the run concept and all that stuff. And he actually overperformed. So his stats look bad, but he overperformed. Now my question is like,

okay, Brian Dayball, like your thing is supposed to be offense. let's get the most out of this very talented player. And I don't think he did a great job of doing that last year. Like when you look at Sequin's usage as a running back, it looks like any old running back, or as a receiver, sorry, it looks like any old running back's usage, though. Like he's catching flare passes, he's catching checkdowns. He's not splitting out wide.

He's not splitting out into the slot. I think that's a layer they can add to their offense. And I think it's a layer they need to add because, like you said, they're short on skill players. Darren Waller is a good player. a very good tight end. He causes a lot of headaches for defensive coordinators, but he is a tight end.

And I think tight ends, there's a ceiling on the stress they can put on the defense just because of where they line up. Well, and also, is it necessarily a good idea to expect Darren Waller to be healthy? That's another thing. It just has not usually worked out that way.

They bring in Paris Campbell, who has, like, the longest injury track record I've ever seen. Like, there are, like, car accidents on it. Like, he had a year, a year ago, where it was the most unlucky guy in the NFL. I really want to see him play. I think he's a good player,

but you can't rely on him to stay healthy. Jalen Hyatt, like, I wasn't the highest on him. I thought he was in, like, an offense that just doesn't translate to the NFL at all at Tennessee. And he was a bit of a deep ball merchant. Like, we need to see him prove that he could be like an every down, every concept,

every route type of receiver. I'm not saying he can't. Like, he certainly has some talent, but we just didn't see it in college. And, like, those are the guys that typically have the, the hardest time transitioning. So maybe down the line, like... If he hits, though, that'll be a big deal for them.

That would be a huge deal for them. But I just, I have a hard time seeing it in year one. And I think that's the question mark with a lot of these guys. Like, there could be a time in November where like maybe Waller picks up a knock and he's on the lineup. Maybe Campbell's on the lineup and Robinson's kind of struggling where we're like, we're in the same spot we were last year. They don't have enough weapons.

And this offense has to kind of do similar things. We saw there was an excellent. expiration date last year. They started off so hot. And then the wheels kind of fell off and then they had that good playoff game. So I see the question marks, but I think the defense is going to take a huge step. Like I think Kvon-Tibato is just going to have a monster year this year, like a breakout year where we're saying this guy is next. Like he's the next all pro. And I think that goes a long way.

And I think the bankstrap pick is another one that really elevates this defense. So I think you're going to see some positive regression from the defense. and I have faith in dayball. I just ask that question, like, let's see it from you. I think he's going to deliver. So that's the reason for my optimism. And like, if you tell me Jacoby Bresset is starting 17 games,

I'm with you. I'm willing to say the commanders are a better team. But I don't know if that's going to be the case. So I'm kind of iffy. You seem a little more confident. So I will lean towards Washington being the third. Well, so I was going to say that you'd done a good job. You'd convinced me.

But one more question. Yeah. Because we've talked about Sam Howell and Washington being the main question there. But what do you, it sounds like you don't expect a lot from him. Yeah, I watched him a little bit a couple weeks ago. I need to watch him more before I like come to a firm conclusion. But he's just a little too Baker Mayfield for me. Like when it works, it works.

Like it looks good. He has a strong arm. He has some scrambling ability. I just think he's too confident in it. And it really helped him out. The people who the people who like Sam Howell comp, Russell Wilson and the people who hates Sam Howell comp Baker-Mayfield.

What happens if you're low on Baker and Russ? I don't know. Drew Breeze, I guess, the other short quarterback. But no, I thought he was like a functional quarterback. I think he's going to be decent. And like you said, they have talent around him.

They have Eric B. Enemy coming in. I don't know what to expect at the B. enemy. It's always hard to say when you're getting an offensive coordinator from an offensive head coach and maybe the best one ever. So the question marks on the offense kind of scare me off from like touting the defense too much. But I could see a scenario where the defense is even better because like you look at their their stats like they didn't their defensive line was very good and it got pressure

and it was very good against the run. But they didn't get a lot of sacks and they didn't get a lot of turnovers. Like they were really good when the secondary had to cover. And I think it's a testament to that scheme. And I think that's not going away. I think defensive line is still good. the pieces are in place. If they get a little more turnover, this could be one of the, maybe the best defense in the NFL. It was close last year.

So I think that's the reason that I'm willing to put them over the Giants. I think you, I am willing to go Giants three, Cowboys 4. Sorry, Commanders 4. I was going to say that you convinced me that I was overreating Sam Halel ever so slightly and that I wasn't paying enough attention to the coaching advantage that I think the Giants have. These teams are so close.

This is so hard. Okay, wait, wait, wait, wait. They tied. Let's just, let's just do it again. They tied. Okay. Yeah. They tied.

Cool. Let's put it all together. All right, let's do it. I need a recap of the list. I have it in a Google Doc somewhere, but I'm not going to be able to find it. Okay. The list, pre-editions of NFC's teams is chiefs, bengles,

Bills, 49ers, ravens, dolphins, jaguars, jets, Seahawks, lions coming in at 10th overall. Then we've got the chargers, the patriots, the Falcons, the Broncos, the Browns, followed by the Vikings, the Colts, the Packers, the Steelers, the Saints, the Titans. That's our group of three. Yeah, but we like the coaching.

The Raiders, Panthers, bears, rams, bucks, Texans and Cardinals. All right. I guess Eagles first. Where do you think they go? Second. I think they go after the Chiefs, which is really boring because that makes the top of our list just the Super Bowl.

But you know what? There's some logic to that. Yeah, I mean, I think you almost have to do it, especially with like how tightly packed the AFC is. And on a neutral field, I think, yeah, I think Philadelphia just has too much talent. Right now in July, I'm picking Philadelphia. over all those teams.

But I think it's close enough where, like, I wouldn't be mad if you had a team above them. But I agree with you. And like, Jayland Hertz takes another step. Like,

I don't even know. Like, they could be the best team in the NFL. Right. I feel pretty, like, if they played Cincinnati on a neutral field right now,

of course it could go a bunch of different ways. But, like, I don't think that I would spend that much time. I wouldn't agonize over who I was picking up. And I would pick Philly. Especially with how those teams match up

with, like, I know Cincinnati's Offens line is better now, but like that's not the best matchup for them against that difference one. What do you think about the Cowboys? I don't know. I want to put them around Seattle. I think...

Okay. I have them a little higher. Where did you have? I put them after the dolphins, but before the Jaguars. Okay, okay. I would put them after Jacksonville for me. I think the coaching advantage, I think the coaching advantage is it goes towards Jacksonville.

I think the quarterback, like as much as I love Dak, I think this year, this is the year like Trevor officially passes him in the hierarchy. And those two things are enough for me, given the question marks around Mike McCarthy taking there. Like Mike McCarthy, Doug Peterson, I'm going with Doug Peterson. I think there's a huge gap there that makes up for. the defensive talent that Dan Quinn is working with. Like, I have questions about the Jaggs.

Well, so that's, that's what I was going to say is, of those two teams, the Cowboys are the one where I feel like there's something that I know is going to be really, really good. What about the Jaguars other than like Trevor individually? What about the Jaguars, are you confident is going to be great next year, this year? that's a good question I don't have an answer for that but the coaching the coaching is the thing I would say

how much that matters is a fair question I don't know I think talent wins games but I think Trevor might be a top five quarterback by the end of this year and I don't think we're having that conversation

about DAC because of the coaching he's getting and like you get Ridley back this team took off at the end of of the year. I think Trayvon Walker could have a big second year. I think they're going to use him better. I think they're going to use him more like they should have last year,

not have them drop into coverage and standing up. I think they're going to use them as a rush end. I wouldn't be surprised if this defense is like around middle of the pack. And if that's the case, like this, this is a top five, a potential top five offense for me. So that's why I think I'm leaning towards them. I just tend to lean towards the offensive teams more. I mean, I don't feel that strongly about it.

I'm willing to put Dallas head of Jacksonville because I do love Dak. But I think in a neutral matchup on a neutral field, I would go with Jacksonville. But it would be a conversation in my head. Okay. Ninth. Okay. I think Washington is where we're going to have the widest cap. So where do you have?

Because I want to slot them in right behind. I was going to say dent. I want to put them in that area. I do think the defense is hard to ignore. No, okay, okay. I'm going to retract that. I want to put them right behind New England because I think like the same reasons

for being optimistic about New England, you could say about Washington. Like across the board. The defense. Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to go, yeah, that's where I put them. So you and I, I actually don't,

this, you and I, we're not so different, you and I. I had Washington and so because and now we're saying that they tied. Originally I had Washington and the Giants

back to back right after the Chargers and before the Patriots which makes sense because I'm a little lower on New England than you are. I'm not positive they're going to be

an awesome awesome like top five defense immediately. But yeah I had them back to back after the Chargers all right, that's fine with me. I think you mean the Giants in Washington or Washington in New England? Okay.

That's fine with me. I feel like I got my way with New England when we ranked them initially. So now I have to give something back. How about we do this? How about we just throw them into the tie? Now we have a three-way tie. A three-way tie. By the end of this exercise, like every team is tied.

Honestly, I don't hate it. It's just a, it's a, 31 way tie for first and then the Cardinals, so we can't seem to be nice to. That's right. I'm just kidding. Okay. We have a list.

Giants, commanders. And here it is. Here's the list. Number one, Kansas City. Number two, Philly. Number three, the Cincinnati Bengals. Number four, the Bills, 49ers, five, Ravens, six, Stalph in seven, Jaguars 8, Dallas 9, Jets 10, Seahawks 11, Lions 12, Chargers 13,

a three-way tie between the Giants commanders and patrons at 14, Falcons at 17, Broncos at 18, Browns at 19, Vikings 20, Colts 21, Green Bay, 22, Steelers 23, Saints, 24. for Titans 25, Raiders 26, Panthers 27, Bears 28, Rams 29, bucks 30, Texans 21, Cardinals, 32. And Seam. That feels good to me. I do have one question. I like it. Should we push up Tennessee because of the Hopkins deal? Didn't we already do that?

Oh, did we? I don't remember. I went on vacation last week. It's all blurring together. Maybe we did. I think we did. I remember doing it now. It's all coming back.

Keep that in. Anyway, I don't care. I feel good about this list. And I'm glad that we have it. And, you know, maybe we can revisit it at the end of the season and figure out all the things that we got wrong. Stephen, happy training camp. Thank you. I'm looking forward to it.

How are you feeling? That sounded so unconvinatory. No, I was totally lying. I'm not looking forward to it. I'm looking forward to the regular season. I like a little bit of training camp. I feel, so the, the takeaway from this to me is like, I feel good about a lot of these teams. We're getting solidly into the mid-20s before I'm like, I don't know, there's sort of, it's hard to see a path.

I'm surprised to feel that way. I think some of it has to do with the disparity between the conferences, just how tough the AFC looks and, and, how relatively open the NFC feels. But there's a lot of reasons to be optimistic. I think a lot of teams with the number of young quarterbacks to, I mean, right, like the Colts are 21. And I'm so fascinated to see what happens with the Colts. Even Houston.

Because, yeah, totally. The 31st team, who knows? I think there's been a lot of... What else is what training games for? Hope Springs at turn. There's been a lot of talk about, like, tanking and we're worried about if teams are going to tank for these quarterbacks. But, like, there are only three teams maybe that I think are uninteresting for this year. And the Rams could be interesting, and that was one of the teams.

Like, Tampa Bay, I'm just like, whatever. I don't know. And then Arizona. But, like, everyone else, Houston, like, you have Stroud. You have Domeko Ryan's coming in. They sign a bunch of guys. Get Will Anderson in there. I think there's, like, reason to tune in to all of these teams.

Maybe that's easier to say on July at the end of July, but I'm excited about the season. I think there's a lot of intrigue. Good stuff. All right. This has been the Ringer NFL show. The final episode of our Power Ranking series. I'm Nora Prenti. As always, he is Stephen Ruiz.

Stephen. You and Ben Zolak this Friday on the feed? Back with another big question? Or are we transitioning because of training camp? We're transitioning, unfortunately. Ooh. All right. Well, there's lots of good stuff.

If people haven't listened to all of those episodes, digging into some of the big topics, that's been really, really cool to listen to. Highly encourage everybody to check that out if they haven't already. And to get excited for a ton of new stuff coming up on this feed. As always, thank you to Stefan Anderson for production on this episode. And to Connor Nevins and Arjuna Ramupal for additional production supervision.