The Ringer NFL Show - 2023 NFL Power Rankings: NFC North

Episode Date: June 27, 2023

Nora Princiotti and Steven Ruiz return to rank the teams in the NFC North from best to worst, and to adjust their NFL rankings thus far. Hosts: Nora Princiotti and Steven Ruiz Associate Producer: Stefan Anderson Additional Production Supervision: Arjuna Ramgopal and Conor Nevins Musical Elements: Devon Renaldo Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Bill Simmons from The Ringer, and this is a podcast called The Rewatchables. We have been doing it. Really since 2017, it started with how much we love the movie Heat. We decided to structure a whole podcast with categories, most rewatchable scene, who of the movie, Apex Mountain, what age the best. But here's the thing. If you want the full archive, you can hear them only on Spotify for free, by the way. So make sure to follow the rewatchables on Spotify. Hello and welcome to the Ringer NFL show.

I'm Nora Pinciotti. I am back with Stephen Ruiz. We are continuing our division by division NFL power ranking series today with the NFC North. It is not lost on me, Stephen, that this is, I believe we are now like a month in to this project that we began in a way. We chose the divisions that we started with in such a way that we could try to try to avoid. any DeAndre Hopkins breaking news. Still not signed anywhere. Just still out there.

Just still waiting. It's never going to happen. Thanks, DeAndre. Thanks. Think of the podcasters, DeAndre. This is our like apologies to Matt Damon. We ran out of time. It's just like, well, I don't know.

Maybe next week. We'll see. We'll talk about this the entire time. And then the season's just going to start. AFC East. We're going to have to do it at some point. But not today. Today we're doing the NFC North.

Still feels like a relatively, relatively safe place for us to be in. How did you feel about this division? Very competitive. It was very tough to pick one a number one team. This is the hardest time I've had picking a number one team in the division. And like you look at the odds and no other team has, no other division has, has it where every team has playoff odds over 30% based on like the betting odds at Fandul. outside of the AFC North.

I wasn't expecting this to be a division that I really took a lot of time to think who I thought was going to be the best team, who I thought was going to be the worst team, but it was very hard for me to separate, especially the two middle teams for me. I think eventually I settled on a first team that I feel good about it

and the last team that I feel good about. Those two middle teams, that's where I think we're going to have the most debate and discussion about. Oh, I'm kind of interested. This is interesting because I felt pretty solid in the top two teams and pretty solid in the bottom two teams and had some pause either way about how to order

those. So now I'm fascinated to see to see how this goes. You want to kick us off? Yeah, I'm going to go with my top team. It's the Lions. I'm assuming you had the same team, that Vegas has the same team. I think everyone is excited about them after a busy offseason, especially in free agency, I don't think either of us were too excited about their draft and how that kind of propels them forward. But I think for 2023, the Lions have, I think they have the best roster in the division. I think they have the least amount of holes. There is that the specter of James and Williams' suspension kind of hanging over this team. And I do think that's a big deal, which we'll get into a little bit later.

But from top to bottom, I think this is the most solid roster. And I think it's the one where probably the highest floor out of all these teams. Like, if they lose or if they win fewer than six games, I'd be very surprised. I think that's totally true. The only sort of, I agree with you about the high floor thing with them. The only thing where, when you look at it a little bit more closely,

because I think, if I think in a cursory way about the lions, I go, oh, man, like really kind of spicy, exciting receiver group. But we all love, I'm on Ross St. Brown. However, you want to see it another season, right? You want to see a little bit more, a little bit more consistency.

The Jameson Williams suspension is another factor. It's not as deep. It's a better group than it is a deep group, especially because there are some questions there. And you add in the fact that the highest ceiling for me with this team is if they do turn out to be like a very past first offense. We've seen that in action be exciting and continue to get good production.

out of Jared Goff, take advantage of that offensive line, and have those receivers on the field as much as possible and performing at a high level. However, the other thing that I think is worth questioning is just whether the actions in the draft and the actions that they've taken toward team building indicate that they are going to run the ball a lot and potentially more than we might like,

given the other potential strengths of the roster. So there are like if there are some things where if you take a closer look at it, I wonder a little bit if they will hamstring their like full, full, full, full, full potential. But still, I do agree with you that like top to bottom, this is the most exciting roster in the division. I thought about putting the Vikings here. I really did just because I think Brian Flores is going to make a big difference for that

defense. I think the schematic change that they're going to undergo is going to be pretty wholesale. And that group of players in a more aggressive scheme would have helped them last year. Like that would have been a much better, their schematic issues were bigger than their personnel issues, I felt. Yeah, I agree with that. I think my question with the Lions are the reason why I put them here is I think this is the team where you could say they're definitely on a track where they're ascending. I mean, the bears are, but that's probably, that's a situation where they have nowhere else to

go but up. But you look at like the Packers, how they kind of left off last year. And then Minnesota, even though they went, what did they win, 13 games, 11 of those were, 11 of those were one possession games. And like, we had the Vikings, the fraud question all year long. And then the playoffs come and you get embarrassed by Daniel Jones at home. And it's like, okay, those questions were very legitimate. And. Right. I don't see where the evolution comes from from Minnesota. Like I get the Brian Flores thing.

I do think that's a huge deal. Like him replacing Ed Donatel is going to change the nature of the defense, like you said. Like it's going to be more aggressive. And they were the opposite of aggressive last year. I just think it's going to take maybe a year for them to get the personnel right. Because it is a, you do need a certain type of personnel to run the Flores defense as we know it. For all I know, it could look different. But the one we saw in New England, the one we saw in Miami, you need.

need like a secondary that you could trust in man coverage. And right now, although I think Minnesota went to work on it this offseason, they signed byron Murphy, they draft a quarterback. The name is escaping me right now, I think, in day two. Those guys can come in and help and play man coverage. I just think you need more. You need more help. You need more help in the secondary.

I think the lineback group needs to get a little bit better. But I like the moves they made. It's just my question is, is that enough to offset the regression that we know is coming or that we think is coming? So there's a difference between the Vikings still being a 13 win team, right, and being within a stone's throw of the Lions. And the second part of that, I think, is the conversation worth having. They're not going to win 13 games again.

Like, that was a ridiculous thing that happened. They could be a better team and lose more games. I think that's a fairly solid chance to happen. I do think that, you know, the defense is going to go through an adjustment period, it's worth remembering, this is going to be the first time that Cousins goes through two consecutive years there with the same offensive play caller.

And I don't know. Like, is that going to make a difference to Kirk Cousins who just does the same thing all the time, basically? Like, maybe, maybe not. However, I would be remiss if I didn't mention, I listened to our buddy Ben Solac. I listened to the two of you chobbing it up. You said Kirk Cousins is good now, Stephen.

We don't need to bring that up. No, I do think he's good now, but like I said, on that pod, it's at the point where it doesn't matter. Like, it's too late. I'm sorry, it's too late. Like the Vikings, their time was a couple years ago. Kirk was what Kirk is now.

I think we would have seen a team that is capable of winning the Super Bowl. But I think what's around him has kind of regressed where he doesn't really have that run game he can rely on that they had. Even when they didn't have the best offensive line, they still had a run game. And we saw that kind of go away last year. And Kirk, plus, of course, Jefferson made up for that just by being like a superhuman tandem.

I just don't know if they're going to be able to replicate that again. What if Jordan Addison is really good? That's my question. The offensive line is still, as long as they stay on the field, that is a solid group. he might have the best receiver in football. You've made that argument, right? And if Jordan Addison pops, all of a sudden,

oh, okay, KJ Osborne, not too bad as a third receiver, then this becomes a pretty scary receiver group. And I know that I'm in some ways making the ceiling argument for the Vikings after saying that we can't just make the ceiling argument for the Lions receivers group. So, like, this may not happen.

However, if we're only, if we're talking about all the areas in which they could regress, I just feel like we are remiss not to point out the fact that this could be a better wide receiver core around cousins who always does best when he's got a good, good group to raise the level. And defensively, even if they are going through a little bit of a reconfiguring period, and there is some getting up to speed that has to happen, this is a group that will out the second most passing yards in the NFL last year. And

I believe in Brian Flores as a coach and I think the fact that they will, you know, it can kind of go both ways, right? Because yes, I don't know necessarily that it's Byron Murphy and I think Andrew Booth you were talking about.

Those two as the outside corners are they going to be up to playing that style? We'll see. It's not the most complicated thing to learn. You might not be able to do it, but it is just sort of like, hey, go get that guy.

So I don't think they should have, like, it might be the type of thing where they're just going to get burned some of the time. I don't know how much of a cushion in terms of like, okay, are they going to be able to learn this? I think that might be pretty doable.

Again, because I do just, he's a good coach and teach as well. that's not to say that that's the type of thing that brings you from, you know, that's not the type of thing that like turns something into the best defense in the league or top five or whatever. But they just gave up so many. I mean, it was like they didn't even try. It was just so soft in every meaning of the word that it's just hard for me to buy that there isn't some ground to make up just by playing a slightly more aggressive. even if that is like a two-step forward, one step back,

where sometimes it's just like, oh, shit, that guy got behind me and now we gave up a touchdown. Yeah, I guess my worry is them becoming like the dolphins last year, like their defense where it's like risky to the point. Yeah, where it's just like chaos. But I think with them, the tricky thing is figuring out how much they're going to regress because they won like 13 games is a lot of games. Like you only see like the best teams in the league win 13 games.

I think the Chiefs won 13 games last year. But you look at like everything else, like the underlying numbers and their point differential. They had a minus three point differential. That's like the point differential for eight and nine to you. So it's not like this is like your typical overachiever. This is a historical overachiever. And that's where I'm wondering how they're going to make up that much ground. It's not like, oh, we have to win 11 games.

We have to be an 11 win team after we were like basically an 11 win team last year. It's no, we have to improve by like three games, basically, I think is what you have to get out of the Vikings to get. to get them back into the playoff chase. And it's just a big gap for me. And going back to the Lions, I do think this is a fair question. Because we all expect them to take the next step, right? This evolution.

And my question is, where does that evolution come from? In theory, it comes from the defense. It comes from the secondary. We saw them improve over the second half last year. But this was still one of the worst defenses in the league. So, like, yeah, it improved last year over the second half, but it has a long way to go. And on the other side of the ball,

I think them losing DJ Chark, especially after James and Williams suspension, is a huge deal that not a lot of people are talking about. Like, he was their deep threat last year. And as much as- He was really good. Yeah, he was really good. And as good as St. Brown is.

As good as he is, he only affects one part of the field. He's a short route runner. He doesn't give you that explosiveness. And if you're going to run this, like, run-heavy, play-action style of offense, you need to hit downfield explosives. And if they don't have a guy

that can do that. And right now on the roster, it's between Marvin Jones, who hasn't really looked his best since leaving Detroit the first time, and then Josh Reynolds. And that's dicey. So I get the lion skepticism, like, I'm on board with you there. I just think I'm lower on the Vikings than I think you are. And I think they have a long way to go. And as much as I love Brian Flores, one of my favorite defensive coordinators in the NFL, it's tough to run that defense without the right personnel and I still think that's a process they're going through. And they're relying on some guys where, like, even Byron Murphy has been an inconsistent player throughout his time in Arizona. And we don't really know what he is yet. And then you're relying on a rookie to start. And

that, that obviously can go either way. So I don't know, a lot of question marks. But I like the third place team. And when we get to them, I'll explain why. All right. Let's take a quick break and then we'll keep going with that. All right. Third place, what you got, Stephen? I'm going with the Packers. And really, for me, the Packers are number two in this for me. And here's why. I have a confession to make. I think Jordan Love might be good. Oh. I think he might be good. Like I recently watched him. It was like a week ago. Like his preseason tape, the games he has played in, you can get into good offense out of him. He has a good arm. He's athletic. I think he's smarter than people give him credit for, like as like a pocket passer. And I think

his accuracy is getting better. I think he's becoming. a better thrower. Like, we could joke about Aaron Rogers and his influence on the locker room, but you can kind of see Aaron Rogers' style, like that fluidity that he has to his game rubbing off on Jordan left. He looks like a different quarterback

than he was coming out of Utah State. He looks like a different quarterback than he was when we saw him play against the Chiefs a couple years ago. Where do you think he's developed? Because we are, I mean, 83 career pass attempts is not all that much to be going off of.

But that game against Philadelphia feel last year. What did you see going back and looking at that that was missing beforehand? I think it's the ability to make layups, to make those throws. When you're an armed talent guy, which he was coming out of the draft, that was his big thing. He's like, oh, like, that was the time when everyone was trying to draft Mahomes. And anyone who, like, threw a sidearm pass, was like, oh, that could be Mahomes. And I think that was how you were selling him. But the thing is, when you watched that tape, yeah, he could get the ball down the field, but he couldn't get it to the receiver. So there was like accuracy issues. There was being able to actually hit the shots.

And I think now you're starting to see him hit those more consistently. And then you put like a good details details. It's a little thing. And then Matt LaFleur, I think Matt LaFleur is good. I like the tight end, the tight end draft they had. I'm just I'm cracking up because like I love one of my favorite things in sports coverage is how easy it is to make something that's just like a debilitating flaw sound like yeah. You know, I mean he's got a great. arm. He cannot hit, like, he can't really hit the receivers, but he has got a great, goes way down the field. He's having a little bit of an issue getting it where he wants it to go, but he's working on it. And you should just see the velocity on that thing. Right. It's like Ben Simmons. It's like,

oh, yeah, he's so good at basketball. By the way, he can't do the one thing that it matters in basketball. He can't put the ball in basket. He's got a little thing about getting the ball into the hoop. But other than that, it's great. Absolutely dynamic player. Future of the sport, really exciting. And now maybe I'm doing that thing where, like, you know, during the offseason when Ben Simmons, there's like videos of him hitting threes, maybe I'm doing that with Jordan Love right now.

But that's where I'm at. I think he can hit those throws. And I like how the offense is kind of being built. I think we're finally seeing the offense being built in Matt LaFour's vision. And I think this is the year we really see what it looks like. And if like Luke Musgrave, who apparently has been really good in camp, and like you watch his tape, he's a big dude. he's fast, he's athletic,

everything that you expect from like a modern tight end. And then they draft Tucker Kraft, who will probably play right away. I think it will take a little bit of time to get going. But once it gets going, I think the offense is going to be decent and a lot better than we think. And the defense almost has to be better.

It has to be better. Everyone was so optimistic about the defense. And then it was just bad. And for whatever reason, they kept Joe Barry, which is like, that's my concern, is Joe Barry. So you're,

So your concern is not that Jordan Love probably could use more dynamic past catchers. I mean, Stephen, I love the optimism, but are we really really sitting here doing the rookie tight end looks great in camp? Looks great in mini-camp thing?

Yeah, I am. I am. Maybe I'm friends with too many Packers fans. I think that might be it. But there is potential for this defense to get lot better. I know, like, I'm not high on Joe Barry. He's had one season in his career as a defensive coordinator. This is going to be year seven with a third team where he's, his defense has finished in the top half of the league and yards allowed and points allowed. And that was two years ago with the Packers. Yeah. As long as he can get them back to that point, and I think they have the talent to do

that. I think this is a team that could compete for the playoffs, a wild card spot. And I don't know, I don't know if that's a given with the Vikings. I really don't. So, okay, the, That's what I was going to follow up on. You said that this might even be your second team. You would make an argument that the Packers are more, could be a better team in Minnesota. Yeah, I think they have a better defense. I think they have the potential to have a better offensive line.

It kind of depends on Bactiari, who's, I mean, that's a big question mark at this point. And then I think, like, the scheme is enough to make up whatever differences you have in quarterback talent and then obviously wide receiver talent with Justin Jefferson. Like the Packers don't have anybody that can compete with that. But I think like on the whole, with the running game, with the offensive line, with Matt LaFleauor designing the offense, with, I mean, not a good receiving court, but there are some useful players. I think you can make up that difference. And then I think the defense has the potential to be a lot better than Minnesota. So that's my argument for Green Bay.

I don't, I mean, look, first of all, Jordan Love could be anything. Jordan Love could be the next Aaron Rogers, right? We just don't know. like 83 career pass attempts is just we don't know. So the best possible outcome of that, if everything that we saw against Philly was real, if he's taken even more steps forward in the offseason, if everything's going great in minicamp, is going to be great in training camp and all of that, like, sure, that's entirely,

this was a first round pick of quarterback. If he's really panning out the way that they hope he is, then all of a sudden, it is a very good roster with at least offensively, very good coaching staff. And then all of a sudden, this guy is kind of the limit.

I don't think, so the three issues to me are, have we seen enough from Jordan Love to really know? The second one is, I liked the flashes Christian Watson had as a rookie, but losing Devonte Adams has hurt this team over.

And I don't know that they have even in the aggregate made up for that loss. Drafting the tight ends is really interesting because you need those intermediate targets. You need those sort of like easy short medium range completions. Right. To make things easier on Jordan Love and just for his development overall. I just again, like we don't, we don't see rookie tight ends adapt from the college game to the NFL game particularly quickly,

even if they are good picks, even if those picks do pan out. Usually just the history of that position says it doesn't happen that immediately. Add in the fact that they're also, you know, very young at receiver overall. I just, I have more trust in known quantity, Kirk Cousins, even with the baggage that comes along with that, plus

Jordan Jefferson, Justin Jefferson, and then maybe you get something else from Jordan Addison, plus, you know, what's left of their run. Like, I'm just less worried about that than the fact that this just could be a kind of middling group. And if that's the case,

it certainly makes the runway a little bit more difficult for the young quarterback. And then the third thing, yeah, good defensive roster, but it didn't get them very far last year. And a lot of that were coaching, and they were healthy, and they didn't change the coaching. That's my concern. I don't understand how Joe Barry got a third year.

Like, I like that the Vikings, the Vikings won 13 games. They made the playoffs. They could have very easily just been like, all right, let's just run it back and try to get a little bit better. I thought the fact that O'Connell moved on from Ed Donatel,

not only just moved on, but went to the completely opposite end of the spectrum in terms of scheme to find Brian Flores, I think was a really positive sign for him as a coach. And now I'll make another argument against myself. He hated watching it just as much as everybody. I bet. He probably loved going up against it in practice.

But here's my biggest concern about the Packers. The quarterback room, and like I said, I'm pretty high on Jordan Love. I like them more than I think most people like them. But there is a very good chance that he's back. bad next year. Like we haven't, like you said, we don't know what he is. Behind him, his backup is Sean Clifford, first round, our first year player out of Penn State. I don't know if you ever watched Sean Clifford play at Penn State. I went to a Penn State game. They played Illinois.

I cannot say that I did. One of the worst quarterbacks I've ever bet on in my life. I don't know how he got drafted. Wait, you've ever bet on? Yeah, I've lost a lot of money betting on Sean Clifford. That seems like your fault. That was my fault. I don't know a ball. That was my fault. But I realized my mistake and I would not have drafted him in the fifth round. It was insane. But he's their backup. And then after him is Danny Etlin who was like a non-prospect, wasn't drafted. So if

Jordan Love, one gets hurt or two just like... Former Patriot. For, yeah. He's one of those like Patriots picks where they draft him. They're not playing him at corner or at quarterback, are they? Like, they're going to move into wide receiver or like running back or he's going to be Julian Edelman, right? Like no one was drafting him to play quarterback.

Unfortunately, that's not at all how that happens in New England. It, the way that it happens is, oh, they drafted at me as a court. This guy's going to be Tom Brady. Yeah, that's the other way. No, they're either Tom Brady or Julian Edelden. No in between. They're either like the next great slot receiver or the greatest

quarterback ever. And then they are released. What if Jordan Love gets heard are like just isn't ready yet? And Sean Clifford or Danny Danny Edling has to play. Here's what, this is a situation that I don't think is totally unrealistic. It might be November and Packers

fans, you might be getting ready to watch Carson Wentz take snaps for your team. I'm just throwing that situation out there because there's a very real possibility where they need to sign a veteran quarterback and Carson Wentz is like the only option. Did you see his Instagram where he shot a bear? Yeah. I hate it. I hated it so much.

He loves killing animals. It's like, yeah, I don't need to have this conversation right now, but I'm just, don't, if your quarterback needs to shoot a bear, not a leader of men, sorry. Yeah, but only somehow I would run a football team. Somehow only the second worst social media posts concerning the Bears with a quarterback

because Jordan Love apparently got tricked by Bears fans. Wait, I don't know what you're talking about. You didn't see it like it was a, I think it was a cameo situation. I'm like not online anymore. Okay, you have to get online. But apparently some Bears fans tricked him. I think it was a cameo situation.

No. He basically, he wished Bears fans a happy father's day, which implies that the bears are his dad instead of the other way around. I think he was fooled by the joke. But now that's a thing. What was the joke was like, Hey, Jordan Love

Wish me Happy Father's Day? Yeah, and he did it. Like, he wished the Bears a happy father's day. I think he thought he was making the joke that he was the bear's father, but it was actually the other way around. But yeah, that was the joke. He was tricked.

So not a good sign for the quarterback, for the young quarterback. Jordan Love wished Bears fans Happy Father's Day while at quarterback camp in France. Oh, that's what I... Okay, but the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel says it wasn't the troll job, some thought it was.

Oh, really? I guess I'm wrong. Maybe I need to go back and study the tape. No, you're definitely right. Okay. This article got clowned. It's just like, he meant it. He wanted to say Happy Father's Day to the Bears' fans.

Let's be honest here. Let's be real. That's very interesting, Stephen. So you and I... You and I have the same order. But I think I feel like if... Maybe this will be evidenced when we fit the division into... Yeah.

The rest of the league. Because I think I put the gap between the... the, really the gap between all of the teams. I put the gap between the lions and the Vikings, who we just talked about for 10 minutes, and I can't remember who they are. The lions and the Vikings is much smaller than you have it. And then I think I probably have the gap between the Vikings and the Packers

is much wider than you have it. And then the Packers and the Bears, who I think are both of our last teams as a little bit narrower than you have. I think we have the same order. I think we have different tiers is the best way to explain it. Yeah. That's probably true. Let's take another little break

and then come back and talk about the Bears. Let's do it. Okay. Chicago. Last team in both of our rankings. I gave at least some thought to putting them

kind of on par with Green Bay. Sounds like you would not have done that. Correct? No, yeah. I think it's very easy to forget how bad they were, because they traded out of the first pick. If that makes sense, it's like, oh, yeah, they weren't the,

like you don't remember them as being the team with the first overall pick. But they were the worst team in the league by a full game and a half. They only won three games. 30th in DVOA, 29th in offense, 32nd in defense, which is not a good sign when your head coach is a defensive guy. Yeah. They did have the, they did have the fifth hardest schedule,

and they did go one in seven to one possession games. So there is like some room for positive progression. Yep. But this was a very big. very bad team. And I think we need to remember that. And we need to remember that the passing game, like as good as Justin Fields was as a runner down the stretch, and that kind of made the offense viable. And he did improve as a passer. Still one of the worst passing games, like we've seen in recent memory. And I know they were very busy during the offseason. They obviously trade for DJ Moore, which is going to help right away. And they sign up a bunch of dudes in free agency. But these are the positions they signed. Linebacker, linebacker, guard, tight end, interior defense. offensive lineman. These aren't like needle moving positions and this is a team that had a long way to go.

So that's my concern with them. Yeah. So I think that's right. I would push back a little bit on the idea that none of those moves can move the needle. They're going to look bad on the balance sheet someday, whether that's this season or when we get into future off seasons,

much more so than how many games they win this season is about can they make a clear decision on whether Justin Fields has what they need or not. I think they've put him in a decent enough position to figure that out. It could be a lot better, but I do think that just because what you're looking for is can he combine what he adds to the run game and what they've already shown they can do on the ground.

you combine that with the deep ball ability? And I think the combination of, you know, getting more in there, um, clay pool with a little bit more time, you can approximate that. I think they should have a slightly better, it'll be a better group and hopefully one way or another, the picture will become clear there. I don't like the linebacker moves any more than the next gal. I do think that run defense was such a weakness for them last year and just such a thing that like good teams, bad teams, anyone beating the bears was just like, okay, cool, we can do this. This is fine. It will make a difference in how solid of a defensive foundation they can have as a team. At some point, the amount of money that they're spending to accomplish that is going to be tough. But I don't know if like

next September and October are when you're going to really feel the effects of that. So I see, I think, a little bit more of a viable way for the defense to be a little bit more fundamentally sound to take a couple steps forward and then build an offense around power run game, play action, deep shots built off of the play action that could be a decent little team. They're not a playoff contender. Nothing too spicy, but like a real step forward.

But I think your expectations are realistic. I don't think those are necessarily the expectations you kind of see pundits talking about them. Like Justin Fields is like a top five MVP candidate by betting odds. Yeah, that's crazy. Win total is seven and a half games. I agree with you. I think they've obviously taken some positive steps forward.

This is a better team now that it was a year ago. A year ago, we were like, how is this even going to work on office? They don't have a real NFL roster on offense, and the defense wasn't that much better. Now there are NFL players here, and like DJ Moore solidifies that offense in ways that they could not last year. And I do think like the linebackers, like, I totally agree with you. The contracts are bad, but both of these guys, they not only fill a need, but they come from systems that I think there's a lot of overlap with the Everflu system. It's like a lot of effort, run and chase, linebackers all over the field. They can do that.

Like Jermyn Edmins, T.J. Edwards can do that. I think that makes them a five-win team instead of a three-win team. I just don't think it's like seven or eight, or even like a situation where we need to consider them threats to anyone, like the top two teams in the division, whoever those end up being. Because I think it's going to be Detroit and then one of the lions, or the Vikings or the Packers.

I don't think they've threatened that top tier, but I think they have a chance to like threaten the third place team, if that makes sense. But that's as far as I see them going, I think their ceiling isn't that high unless, and this is totally on the table, unless Justin Fields just, you know, explodes and has his Josh Allen

20, 20, 20 year. Right. But even if he, like, even if he does whatever the version of that is, that doesn't quite turn them into, you know, a potential playoff team, but where it's just clear that he's what they're after,

that would be a win. Like, that would be a huge win in Chicago Bears' history. The other thing is like, look, there would be worse things in figuring out that this is not it, right? The thing that you're worried about is ending up kind of in the middle going, well, he's got some real limitations as a passer, but we love the athleticism, and you could certainly do worse. And that's not out of the question either. But the trajectory of the team

beyond 2023, because that's what year it is, that's more important than whatever they accomplish this season. Yeah. I don't know if it was. I don't think it was intentional at all. But I kind of like the fact that they were subtle with the offensive improvements rather than going wholesale and trying to sell out to give Justin Fields everything he needed to succeed. Because then that kind of complicates the question. Like there's another quarterback. I'm not going to name him because I don't want to offend his very passionate fan base.

But his name rhymes with two a tag of Iloa. And after the great year he had, like obviously there's a quarterback named Shmua Shmaga Viloa. There actually is. Yeah, he plays in Shmaiemi. And he throws a Shmiree Kill and Shmade and Waddle. And that makes it very hard to really, like, judge. To Shm evaluate. To shm evaluate.

And it makes it hard to decide if he's a Shman tries quarterback. We don't know. And I think with Justin Fields, you're going to know. Either he's going to elevate the offense, like a mediocre offense, or he's going to fall flat on his face. And if that's the case, they're going to be very bad. And they're going to be able to draft Caleb Williams or Drake May. And then all these problems.

that all these question marks I have will go away immediately. Shmaleb Williams. All right. Should we line up the rest of the league, or not the rest of the league, but the rest of the league that we've ranked so far? Yeah. So where'd the Lions fit in for you?

Do you want me to go through what we had going into this? Yeah, yeah. Let's get a recap. Okay. So we have 12 teams ranked by now. Right now, at the end of this, we're going to move to 16. Right now.

Bengals, Ravens. So two AFC North coming to the top here. Bangles, Ravens, Jaguars at 3, Falcons at 4, Browns are 5th, Colts are 6th, Steelers are 7th, Saints are 8, Panthers are 9, Titans are 10th, bucks are 11th, and the Texans are 12th. All right, I'm putting Detroit right behind the Jaguars. I feel like that's a good spot.

I feel like right ahead of Atlanta, right behind the Jaguars, so 4th. And that makes sense to me. I feel like, I feel like there's a lot. of overlap between the Falcons and the Lions. Like they, same question mark, same kind of offensive build. The same things have to happen for them to go right. So I feel good about that. Negged for the same thing in the draft.

Right. Didn't go after Lamar Jackson, all that, yeah. Now this is where it gets tough. I have no idea where to put Minnesota or Green Bay. Where are you thinking about Minnesota? So I am pretty tempted to put them in. at sixth behind the Falcons. But I think you probably would rather have them

a little further down. I would put them under the Browns. I think the Browns have more talent on paper. I think they have a quarterback who obviously there's question marks, but there's question marks with Kirk Cousins. And I think as he gets into his mid-30s, there's going to be more and more question marks every year. So I think...

Do you think that's true? Do you think that's true? I mean, at a certain point, that will very much be true. But right now, when I don't have serious age concerns about Kirk, it seems like he's the beneficiary of the fact that he is like managed to last and just get a ton of reps and a ton of experience. He knows what's going on. Like, this is what happens to these guys who we make fun of, but who stick around and are just okay and might never win a Super Bowl.

might never be good enough to truly, truly get over that hump or pull a team on their back through a deep playoff run. But Kirk kind of knows what's going on. I mean, the checkdowns are still too frequent. He's still, but he's cut down a little bit on the interception stuff. And you can see the fact that he's been around the block a few times, starting to, you know, after what, 10 years or whatever it's been. becoming something that's a real asset for him.

That's my only. Yeah. I guess my question is for him to get the most out of Jefferson, I think he has to have some arm talent left over. And I think that's the one question mark with him, is how long is his arm going to hold up to the point where he can still... Has the issue ever been that he can't get the ball down the feet? It's just that he doesn't.

It's just that he throws an eight-yard checkdown on third and 12. Right. But I feel like he's gotten better at doing that. My question is, what happens when his arm talent starts to fall off? And then now you still have like the overly conservative quarterback pop up a little bit more. I don't know. I think it has the potential to fall off in a hurry. I don't think there's no like reason to think it's going to happen now.

It's just like you're more. That's all I'm saying. Yes, of course that's going to be a concern with quarterbacks in their 30s. I just don't think, I don't think that anything has happened yet where we can point to and say, oh, the signs are there. It might be coming a little bit. No, yeah, that was a generic statement just towards all mid-30s quarterbacks. But here's my question.

On notice. Who would you? Yeah, you guys are all on notice. Wash, watch for all you. Who would you be more surprised by having a better year? Deshawn Watson or Kirk Cousins? Like, who do you expect to have a better year, actually? It's a better way to put it.

I expect, I expect Kirk Cousins to have a better year. But it would make, like, I get why it would make, I'm not sure that's purely rational. Yeah. I mean, when you think about it, these are very similar teams. Like, they both replace their defensive coordinator after playing, like, the same brand of defense, that same soft defense. They couldn't stop the run, like, all that, the same overlap. And now, like, I like Jim Schwartz's ability to improve that defense and kind of raise that the level of their play in one year. Well, they have better players.

They have better defensive talent. Yeah, that's a good point. So I want to put Cleveland ahead of Minnesota, but I wouldn't be opposed to putting either one. Like those are their neck and neck for me. So I'm leaving it to you. You get to decide. Okay.

All right. We'll put the Viking seven. We'll put the Viking seven. So then do you want to put the Packers like eight? No, no. See, now that I'm looking at the rest of the list, like Indianapolis, oh man.

It's hard for me to put them ahead of Pittsburgh is the only thing I'll say. Just because the Mike Tomlin factor and the fact that they are going to be good on defense, obviously there's question marks about the offense. I'll put Green Bay behind Indianapolis and ahead of Pittsburgh. Okay. So they're nine. Are you fine with that? Yeah, I'm good there. And then the bears. I put the bears 14th. So ahead of the bucks and the Texans. That's what I was feeling. Yeah. Okay. That's good. Cool. All right. So now we're at 16. the Bengals still leading the list Ravens, Jags,

lions, Falcons, Browns, Vikings, Colts, Packers, Steelers, Saints, Panthers, Titans. Bears, Bucks, Texans. Good stuff, Steven. I feel good.

Falcons still at a top five team, still elite. It feels good. I like it. I like it. I think it's, you know, it's just a nice... They've got a big lead and whatever could happen next.

All right, this has been the Ringer NFL show. We will be back next week with some more teams to power rank. In the meantime, Stephen, thank you so much for doing this. You will be back on the feed on Friday with Benjamin Solac answering the big questions that perplexed the NFL, loving that series. What do you guys have coming up this week? This week is it's a topic near and dear,

of my heart. It's why Bill Belichick's coaching tree is so bad. So this is going to be a Matt Patricia heavy episode. We're on your ass, Matt. All right. Looking forward to that. Thanks again to Stephen. Thanks to you for listening. Thank you to Stefan Anderson. As always, for production on this episode. And to

Connor Nevins and Arjuna Ramgapal for additional production supervision.