The Ringer NFL Show - 2024 First-Round Mock Draft | Dual Threat

Episode Date: April 3, 2024

The Dream Team returns to do its own mock draft for the upcoming 2024 NFL draft. The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please check out theringer.com/RG to find out more, or listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Hosts: Nora Princiotti, Austin Gayle, Lindsay Jones, and Steven Ruiz Producer: Stefan Anderson Additional Production Supervision: Arjuna Ramgopal and Conor Nevins Musical Elements: Devon Renaldo Social: Kiera Givens and Eduardo Ocampo Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

There are a lot of quarterbacks in the NFL draft this year. My name is Ben Solac and I host the Ringer NFL Draft Show with Danny Kelly, Danny Hypatts, and Craig Horbeck. We cover trades, free agency, and the draft, which is, yeah, obviously. We'll tell you about everything, which includes which quarterbacks are good, which quarterbacks are bad, and which quarterbacks are just Kirk Cousins. That is the Ringer NFL Draft Show. Search the Ringer NFL Draft Show on Spotify. Hello and welcome to Duel Threat on the Ringer NFL show feed.

I'm Nora Princiotti, and I am joined today. by Stephen Ruiz, Lindsay Jones, and Austin Gale, who are all going to join me in a mock draft, a live mock draft, live for us, not live for the pod, but it's more fun to call it live, so I'm just going to stick with that. Of the top 16 of the first round,

Austin, I know you're rearing to go with this. How are you feeling? I'm feeling good. If I'm officially on the clock, I can sprint the card in, or do we want to preview this at all? Do I want to leave some suspense? We're going to preview it a little bit.

I just know that you were excited for this exercise. So I wanted to see how you're feeling, ready to work the phones, ready to make your team better. I've also been thinking a lot about life's existential dread and my pending death. And I think what's kind of sad is that what's sad is that in 10, hopefully longer, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60 years, some. People will remember me for mock drafts. That's sad, right?

I don't think I wanted to end up here. I feel like, I feel like all of us, all of us are going to be remembered partly by mock drafts and the mock drafts that we've done. And I hope it's a small percentage for all of us. But it's kind of sad that, you know, people are going to look back and like, oh, yeah, he did mock drafts. Which I don't know. I kind of thought about that going in. Didn't mean to, you know, break this existential dread at the top of the pod. But it is interesting that there could be a mock draft on my tune.

I don't know. I don't know. That's a bummer, man. What do you think people will remember you for when you die? I don't know, but I hope it's not mock drafts. It is. It's going to be mock drafts. We know SEO. We know the game. We know SEO. We know the game. Austin's funeral. The theme of his funeral is going to be SEO. He's going to make sure that it's on the front page of Google News. Someone's going to be at your funeral being like maybe some of you remember him for his most read article. 2021 NFL mock draft with trades.

That's going to be. That's going to be. This is like a thing that I note everyone else in the world has forgotten about, but I think about all the time. When Mark Liebevich did his NFL book, there's a portion of it about talking to Adam Schaefter, and he outlines it in a way where he really thought he wasn't going to like Schaefter and was just going to be like, this guy is like he's a sellout.

he's just like he peddles whatever information people give to him and it's not it doesn't advance people's knowledge of the game in any way that's not transactional blah blah blah blah and he says something to Schefter kind of digging at this question and he really seems to kind of think that he's going to get him with it and then Schefter just you know sort of like are you okay with your legacy being tweets essentially and Schefter's response and I'm paraphrasing here but Schefter's response he just looks him in the eye and goes, everything's fleeting. And like that nihilism kind of really won him over. And I think about that all the time is too strong,

but I know I think about that more than the average person. Hey, Lindsay, can I count on you to tell us how you're feeling about this impending exercise and getting into the mock draft spirit without referencing nihilism or death? I will try. I think we can do that. Even worse, she might bring up J.J. McCarthy. That was me to JJ.

I like JJ. I have the Broncos coming up later, so it's going to get real dark. But we'll wait a little bit until we get that. My favorite, wait, my favorite mock draft trope is like, Austin referred to it earlier. When people include in the headline with trades, exclamation, well, oh, in this one, there are 15 trades and they're all excited by it. I'm like, you did it. You get to choose whatever you want. It's not like it's actually happening.

When you're in the game, Ruiz, the with trades leads to higher click through. It changes this up, especially in the April process. You have to understand the art of mock drafts if you really want to get into it. We can talk about it later. I don't know. All right. Yeah, off the pie. Danny Kelly does the metal draft.

This is like the SEO nihilism and what will be we be remembered by when we are no longer of this earth draft. I'm sure people will really enjoy it. All right. This is how this is going to work. representing the bears with the first overall pick, the chargers at five, the bears again at nine, and then the Raiders at 13,

we've got none other than Austin, Gale. Austin, correct? I have your teams correct. You have my team's correct. I got the bears at one in nine, chargers at five, and I'm taken over for Tom to Lesko with the Las Vegas Raiders at 13. I'm ready to kick things off if you are. Love it. Love it. All right.

And then at 2 with the commander's pick, Stephen Ruiz, also has the Giants at 6, the Jets at 10, and the Saints at 14. I've got the third pick for the Patriots, number 7 overall, the Titans, 11 for the Vikings, and 15 for the Colts. And then Lindsay is going to round us off with the Cardinals at four, the Falcons at eight, the Broncos at 12, and the Seahawks at 16. Trades are allowed. We're going to be working the phones.

And without further ado, let's get ready to rumble. Austin, why don't you kick us off? The Chicago Bears, you are on the clock. My phone is on airplane mode. don't even try. We're taking Caleb Williams of USC at number one overall. We are going to wait until the final seconds of the 10-minute clock just because the NFL is, it's showbiz.

You know what I mean? Roger Goodell asked you too. It's fine. Yeah, yeah, Roger Goodell told me. You guys remember when, I think it was the last time I remember it was when Matthew Stafford signed his contract before he was drafted. I feel like that was like the last time I remember players, like you knew who was going number one overall before.

they actually had their name. Now it's obviously the betting odds suggest that Caleb Williams is going to be the number of overall pick. So theoretically, everyone knows that Caleb Williams is going to Chicago, but still a chance he doesn't. I like Caleb Williams to Chicago, best quarterback in Chicago in quite a long time. I do think that people's concerns with Caleb Williams on the field are over-exaggerated and I think exaggerated by how stale, and we've talked about this before on dual threat,

but how stale the Lincoln Riley offense was, I think that the offense lack of playmakers, I think Caleb Williams going to Chicago, immediately having DJ Moore, immediately having Keenan Allen. I do think he's going to hit the ground running in Chicago, and I do think it's the right move for the franchise. I like that they're not really, like, putting up a ton of smoke screens right now.

Like, they're not really trying to obscure the fact that they're going to draft Caleb Williams. And number one, and look, I mean, there's three weeks left, maybe something weird could happen. But it seemed to be as much of a sure thing as we've had in a while. Oh, we got a call. We got a trade going?

Nora is on the phone. We're not sure who she's speaking with right now. She could be trading. I'm on the clock, so should I go? Since our... Oh, she's screaming. She's screaming. We see her screaming.

I'm back, Stephen, at number two. You are on the clock. Okay, I would be open for business if anybody wants to make a trade. But my first question, I would, this is what I would do. Because I'm afraid that someone's going to take Drake May. But if I knew that someone would take a quarterback like J.J. McCarthy

or Jaden Daniels, I would be willing to trade down a few spots and let Drake Bay fall to me. I'm not going to take that risk, though. I'm just going to run the card up. I'm putting Drake May down. I have my quarterback for the next 10 to 15 years. There's no need to overthink this. He's what a quarterback prospect looks like on film. He has the size. He has the arm. He has the athleticism in this day and age. He has the ability to make any type of throw from any platform. I know there are concerns. He has a little Sam Darnold in him. I've said that on this pod.

I've thought about calling him Drake May before. Me before. I'm not going to do it. I like Drake May. He's a good prospect, take him with the number two pick and don't think about it again. Can I ask you, Stephen,

how you imagine teams are overthinking this, right? It's like they are overthinking it? Like, what parts of his profile are you thinking, if you are a team that's like convincing themselves that Jaden Daniels is actually the number two over a quarterback in this class, or hell, J.J. McCarthy is a better prospect than Drake May. How do you overthink his game, his tape, et cetera?

I'm not sure how you do it if you're just paying attention to the tools, but if you're just watching the tape and it's the same as the Caleb Williams thing. Like the offense he played in did not set him up for prospect success. They did not set him up for success in this draft process. It forced him to play a little bit of hero ball at times.

And when you play hero ball, you're going to make mistakes, especially when you have to do it at such a high volume. Ugly plays are going to be all over your film. Whereas like Jaden Daniels, Michael Pennings, these guys, they didn't face that adversity so they don't have as much negative plays on their film. But that's something I would be willing to overlook as a GM. This guy's 21 years old.

He's going to get better. He's going to shore some of the concerns you have about his game. If he was more of a finished product, I would be more concerned about the fact that we're seeing those, those red flags on tape, quote unquote, red flags. But he has a long way to go in his development. I'm not worried about any of the concerns that I've heard from other people.

He's definitely someone I don't feel is maxed out as a prospect in terms of his development, given his age and just given his experience and obviously only playing in a very college-y offense at UNC. And what I can't separate from is the tools, right? It's big, athletic, the arm, the accuracy. I do feel like everything that he brings to the table is from a tool's perspective,

obviously Jay and Daniels has the edge as a runner, but I think it is markedly better than what J.J. McCarthy brings to the table, and I think even significantly better to what J.D. Daniels brings to the table. I do think the first two picks in this draft should be Caleb Williams and Drake May. It's wild that isn't the conversation, right?

It reminds me the last, quote, unquote, good quarterback class where three or four or five guys were supposed to go in the first round, Trevor Lawrence, Zach Wilson. It was like weeks leading into the draft, weeks leading into the draft, everyone knew Trevor Lawrence was going one, and everyone knew Zach Wilson was going too. The fact that we don't even have that Zach Wilson level commitment at number two overall

to Drake May and that there's still kind of question marks there and like still interest in terms of Jane Daniels being the guy or whatever, part of me feels like there's something we don't know. Is that crazy? He's someone who's just like flat out not being talked about. His red flags aren't being talked about, but even his positive tools and traits. and all those things aren't being talked about all that much either. I know we've talked about before on this podcast

where maybe this is teams trying to aid his fall and give, say, a team like the Giants an opportunity to maybe leap up to three or four to take Drake May. I don't know. I find it interesting that there is so much conversation at who the second best quarterback in his class is. I don't think it's close.

I really do think May is the number two guy. Yeah, I would agree with that. We have our first trade. Oh. The Minnesota Vikings have traded up to number four overall with the Arizona Cardinals. Vikings are giving Arizona picks 11 and 23 and several leftover pairs of Kirk Cousins' khakis in exchange for the number four overall pick. A successfully executed trade between myself, Queseido Fomenza and Lindsay acting as,

Monta Osson Fort. Caki enthusiast. Monte Asin Fort. However, I will now put on my Elliot Wolf hat at number three overall with Patriots. And I will second in some ways your statements, Austin,

which is to say that I've been given truth serum. I'm Elliot Wolf with truth serum right now. I'm pissed. I was really holding out hope that the commanders were going to do something silly. No sense. Because if I had the opportunity,

to draft Drake May here, I would just be thrilled about it. And, you know, the phones haven't really been ringing as much as I hoped that they might be. But even if they had been a little bit more here, so I'm feeling right now in this spot, I heard what my boss, Robert Kraft, said at owner's meetings about expecting, you know, sometimes he talks out of both sides of his mouth, that guy. But one thing that caught my attention was that he talked about expecting significant improvements. this year and that when he puts his his fan hat on, he feels that a top level is the phrase he used. Top level quarterback is something that this team needs.

I don't know if you guys have heard about this. I've been, you know, griping about it in private to my family nonstop. I don't have the GM title and I have to fight for my job after the draft because we're going all go back in interview and someone's going to be the general manager of the New England Patriots, but we haven't quite finished that process yet. And so I'm feeling the heat a little bit.

And I am not going to be able to withstand the pressure that the owner of the team that I work for who is going to evaluate my job performance seems to be putting on me to go ahead and draft a quarterback. And because of this, I'm going to select quarterback Jaden Daniels

with the third overall pick. I'm in my heart of hearts, a little bit nervous about it. I'm particularly nervous about how the running translates to the NFL level, the size and health concerns as a result of that, and just whether or not he is someone who is sort of closer to his ceiling

than someone like Drake May would be, who I was sort of hoping that we were going to be able to draft here. However, I think that we need to get someone who is considered a top-level quarterback. I believe that that Jaden Daniels checks that box. And frankly, right now, I am in job security mode more so than I am in make the pick that's best for the team in the long run mode. So without further ado, the Jaden Daniels era begins in New England, thusly.

I understand. I understand that. I do too. If you're wolf, right? And there is pressure from ownership, pressure from Kraft to take a high, you know, quote-unquote high-end quarterback or bring in a high-end quarterback. You know, obviously job security is everything. And if Kraft is pressuring you to pick a quarterback, you pick the best guy available.

I said job security, but it's not even job security. He doesn't have the job yet. Yeah, true, true, true, right. And like, here's my take on me. that's horrible process from crap. Like that's horrible. Yes, it's madness. I don't understand that.

I don't, if that's like happening, that is insane to me because you're essentially asking, not even asking, you're telling Wolf to take the third picked quarterback in this class. I won't say third best. You know, we never know how these guys are going to end up, but the third pick, the QB3 in this class, because you want one.

And throw out if he'll be good or not. and have him throw to KJ Osborne, Kendrick Born, and Pop Douglas. Correct. Behind an offensive line that is mid at best, right? Correct. With Connor McDermott and left tackle. Like, I don't, I do not understand how right away, Jade and Daniels are held.

Any quarterback in this class has success in this Patriots offense in Europe. Now, they have the most cap space of any team or projected most capspace any team in 2025, right? A ton of cap space next year. Could they, you know, unload the Brink's truck to surround a rookie quarterback with talent in 2025? Yeah, they did that with Mack Jones. Hunter Henry, John R. Smith. They signed a ton of players when they did that with Mac Jones, and it didn't work. Like, if a quarterback prospect isn't good enough, and in that class, I took the QB5, but if a quarterback prospect isn't good enough, I worry that putting them in a situation that's inherently bad and trying to

build it up and free agency is going to be very different. It's just a hard plane to land. I would much rather, if that pressure wasn't there from Kraft, take an offer to trade down, especially if it's Jane Daniels or J.J. McCarthy here on the board, if Drake May and Caleb Williams are our board, take an offer to trade down and kick this can

in the same way that... Okay, well, first of all, I didn't get any trade offers. No, true, true, true. Which I don't know. Here's the thing is, I think this is the worst spot in the draft to be like in the top 10. This is, I do not want to be picking third. It's the worst spot to be, especially if you need a quarterback.

What about this offseason thus far gives you confidence that the process is good? They come out at the combine. They talk a huge game about adding to the receiver room, weaponizing the offense. They have a lot of money to spend and they absolutely cannot get it done in free agency. And then again, you have an owner who is saying the same things that he has been saying. And he's talking a little bit more about patience than he has in the last couple of years. But every time he says, you know, we don't want to be splashy just for the sake of being splashy, then he follows it up with something along the lines of we don't plan on drafting as high as number three ever again.

time soon. We don't think that we're going to be in this position. I'm not so sure I agree with that. But it seems really, really obvious to me that there's pressure from ownership to take a quarterback. When I hear top end quarterback, I hear first round. You know, I just don't think that you're going to get, like, he's not thinking of Spencer Rattler when he says that. Hey, hey, now. That could be top in. And then when you add in the, the, the, the, dynamic that the guy's fighting for his job. It's just I, you know, I could have made this pick in sort of perfect world mode and what I think would be the smartest thing to do. If it ends up being basically a decision between J.J. McCarthy and Jane Daniels, I think the most prudent thing to do would be to hope for a trade. Though I have to say I'm not particularly confident one is going to come, one that feels sort of

satisfying is going to come. I do think I would rather take one of the top receivers and just live to fight another day. Jacoby Brissette has proven that he can be a solid bridge quarterback. He could start for a year there and they could try to reshape the roster as a whole and just take a breath and work on that.

I simply do not really think that that's a viable option. in real life. I just find myself, and we've talked about the Patriots pick at number three overall, like a lot. And like I just find myself

frustrated by the idea that now if they are enamored with Jaden Daniels, throw it out the window, who cares? Like if you like a quarterback prospect, you take, right? Like my opinion is,

is if the scouting staff and like, even like Wolf is like, I don't love him. I think I can work with him, I can win with him. There's an offense. I can build around him, but I don't love him.

I would so much rather get out of this, spot and find a team that does love Jada Daniels because they have to be here, right? We know Antonio Pierce loves J& Daniels. We know even Denver Broncos or other teams lower might be looking to come up and go get Jay and Daniels. If you don't love them, this is a roster, in my opinion, that is built to not bring in a rookie quarterback.

And that doesn't even factor in. Gerard Mayo, first year head coach. Alex Van Pell did not call plays in Cleveland. Like, it's a first year offensive play caller. Which is the more powerful force in NFL decision making? What the owner who signs everybody's checks was. for what the roster is ready for. If Kraft does this, I'm out on craft.

I'm out on craft. I just have to be out on craft. I don't get it. It's the implication that you're like right now a big Robert Kraft guy. I was in on craft and now I'm out on craft if he forces this move. You got a lot of craft stock? I don't have a lot of craft stock, but I might sell any that I have. I just don't get it.

I really don't. I mean, honestly, there's parts of me that, anyway, just you know that if you're doing that. You know that if you're doing that you're unloading paper. right, not mac and cheese? Yes, yes. Common misconception. Just want to make sure everybody knows. All right, man.

I'm worried for whichever quarterback goes to New England at three. Jane Daniels. Same Cates. Yeah, yeah. Especially Daniels, though, because I feel like he has that playmaker spirit in him. And if he's the best guy there and he's the only guy that can make a play on that offense, he's going to be encouraged to do that more often. And like, New England will kill his spirit.

He hasn't put on the weight. It's potentially his body. might also just kill him. Yeah, yeah. It's going to be rough. This is going to be rough. It's hard to think of a worst landing spot for a quarterback right now. I don't disagree.

I just, I mean, and then the interesting question there is I thought about if this situation happened, would they go McCarthy instead? I don't. The vibe I'm getting is like, he just doesn't quite have the, it's not sexy enough and somehow it doesn't. I just, I don't hear the, the connections there. as much. I do when Mayo has talked about what he wants in a quarterback,

which he's mostly done in generalities and it doesn't seem to be particularly specific. He has mentioned things. The two things that he's really mentioned are sound decision making,

which actually right off the top doesn't make you think that they're obsessed with Drake May because that's not the number one feather in his cap, although I don't think that it'll be a problem once he's

in an NFL context and gets a little bit more chance to develop. But then also just good body language and leadership skills. I think they all seem to be very much like things got bad with Mack at the end and we want a firm handshake goes a long way

in the NFL. Firm handshake. You want the offensive line helping them up off the ground after they get tackled. You want no pointing at receivers. They're playing the body language game pretty intensely. You know who that sounds like, Nora? Dak Crescott, in 2025, when they can drop an absolute baguette on his ass

because they'll have the most cap space of anybody in the league. And by then, with a trade down with other moves, you could legitimately... Wait, wait, wait, wait, why don't we dangle this pick out in front of Jerry? I think Jerry might jump at the chance to take Jaden Daniels. There we go. Maybe Jerry wants Jaden. Maybe Jerry has a number in your phone. That's who I was in a,

that's who I tried to work the phones with and got in a screaming match with. That's why you were upset. He told me he was going to hit me over the head with a bottle of Johnny Walker Blue for suggesting such a thing. But, you know, I'll call him back tomorrow, see if he changes his mind.

I know it's fairy tales and, and dreams, but positioning, positioning yourself to be a potential DAC team, even just a potential DAC team. feels better than forcing QB3 in this class, period. I'm leaving it at that. Yeah.

You know who has to try to win his job before Dak Prescott hits free agency? Me, Elliot Wolfe. No, Nora, I think you're making the right decision. Nora, you are making the right decision. I think it's Kraft. Remember, again, I'm out on Kraft. If he's forcing you into this, if he's forcing you into this, I'm out on craft. I think he's forcing me into it.

I feel forced. I feel boxed into a corner. I'm scared, Austin, and I don't know what to do. Are you picking back to back? Do you have the Vikings also? I do. Now, yeah, yeah.

All right. Now I'm back on the clock. I, the Minnesota Vikings, having traded my two first round picks up to the Cardinals for number four, I'm going to do what everybody knows that I've wanted to do all along, which is to

swap my one normie quarterback for another J.J. McCarthy, you are a Minnesota Viking. Come on down. The vibes are, I don't know,

are the vibes good or are they bad with this matchup? Here's the problem. Here's the problem. It's objectively dumb, but it's also like someone is going to do this and it should be the Vikings

because they are very clearly the best landing spot. If I am J.J. McCarthy and I can go to a team that has Justin Jefferson, that has Kevin O'Connell in that, that Rams variant offense, that's going to be a really good fit that wants me to, you know, use the middle of the field, not terribly concerned about, you know, we can get explosives through yards after the catch rather than asking me to be like chucking it down the field. I'm just, I'm, I'm pretty happy about that. And it makes enough sense. that I have sort of like made my piece with this,

even though I don't love the value. What did you give up in the trade? I gave up 11 and 23. And some old pants of her cousins is. Some old pants. But here's, I'm going to position this to you, Lindsay, or, yeah, Lindsay, you tell me, would you rather have Sam Donald this year on a one-year contract or essentially spend the 11th and 23rd overall pick on J.J. McCartney. Where do you stand? I'll start with you, Lindsay,

and then I'll go to Ruiz. Look, I think this is an organization who is a general manager and a head coach who, unlike Elliot Wolfe, they're not in job preservation mode. I think this is a duo here in Quessi, Adolfo Menza and Kevin O'Connell that have job security and are ready to kind of start rebuilding this thing and ready to take a swing at quarterback. They're not going to get fired these two guys if J.J. McCarthy isn't great in year one. So that's why I'm okay with it. I don't love J.J. McCarthy. McCarthy. Right? I'm not like a J.J. McCarthy stand. But I understand the process. And I do think unlike all of the things that we just talked about with the Patriots, this is as good an environment as you could get for bringing in a young quarterback. You have some runway. You have a

good offensive line. You have the best wide receiver in the league. He might be unhappy right now and not have a new contract, but you still have him. You have a really good defensive coaching staff, some good defensive players. I just think like the ecosystem there is good. And I'm fine with that. And Sam Darnold, I think, will be fine as like the veteran quarterback in the room. And yeah, I'm good. I'd rather have, as much as I don't like love J.J. McCarthy, I'd rather have. As much as I don't like love J.J. McCarthy. I'd rather have J.J. McCarthy than Sam Darnold and then wait to maybe get in the DAC mix for next year. We should go to Stephen with this question, but I do need to say that I think we as an organization need a Sam Darnold jar, like a swear jar. The ringer is an organization.

Just like when when Sam Darnold, a quarterback who has had extremely minimal impact on the National Football League for years at this point is invoked just. four times an episode. It's true. Quarter in the Sam Darnold jar. Yeah, maybe a dollar. That's fair. That's fair.

Sam Darnold is less a quarterback at this point and more so just like a takes generator. Yeah. He's an idea. I mean, he's an idea. He's a, he's a dream, really. So-Lak uses this phrase and I think he's a hypothetical quarterback. And it started, it started in New York with like Adam Gase. Everyone was like, oh, if he just got away from Adam Gase,

he'll be something like it's it's the same thing with him every time i really feel like and i've made this joke before it's not even a joke anymore i really believe it adam gase is the best thing to ever happen to his career i don't think we're talking about sam darnell like this if that that murky beginning wasn't part of his origin story here's so okay stephen i i am curious to hear what your answer to austin gill's question is and therefore i will sponsor your contribution to the Sam Bernal jar so that you can answer answer the question. Sam Donald, yes, definitely.

I'm trying to think of like the worst quarterback who I'd rather have over this scenario, this hypothetical of J.J. McCarthy for two first round picks. I mean, I would think about giving Zach Wilson to go go at it before. No, that is, that is unhinged. They're the same. That might be a step too far.

They're the same prospect. It's only like three years down the line. Like, I don't know. I don't think I would do it, but I kind of like JJ, like the problem is, I think the Vikings think about the quarterback position differently than we do. Like Kevin O'Connell called Kirk Cousins the greatest play action quarterback of his generation, and he mentioned that as a compliment.

It wasn't like me tearing down a quarterback for being a play action version. You use play action parentheses derogatory. He uses play action parentheses complimentary. Yeah, and I don't get it. And then I interviewed Liam Cohen, who used to be on that radio, staff for a story last year about Will Levis, the Kentucky offensive coordinator. And he said, Will Levis is, oh, his best trait, his superpower is play action passing. Like, this is how these guys think in this system.

So I think they'll see a quarterback like J.J. McCarthy, who is good off the play action and can run that style of offense and be like, this guy fits us perfectly. And I do think it's easy to buy into some of his traits. He does move pretty well. And he throws on the move pretty well. They're going to boot him out eight times a game. They might as well. I mean, that's what he's best at.

And he does have arm strength. Like, he can get zip on the ball. We talked about how it's kind of fake. And it's kind of like Zach Wilson's arm, where it doesn't show up when there are bodies around him and he has to make really tough throws. But I do see how you could fall in love with him, especially if you are the type of coach who loves a play-action quarterback like this.

I think he's got his head on straight and that that shows up in the decision-making in a way that renders the Zach Wilson comps a little. That doesn't work for me. That's two, two-parentheses derogatory. I was like the only thing now I'm hoping that once you, Minnesota Vikings, Nora, have made this move and are drafting this player, is that we will get a, we'll get like a recreation of the Josh McCown, Sam Darnold hair meme. Now we just add J.J. McCarthy because J.J. McCarthy fits in the hair trend. He's got the lettuce. He's got the like the vibes that's going to fit in well in that room. The Vikings love a normie quarterback. That's all they want.

Is Kirk Cousins a Normie? Yes. Well, he's like a Norma human. I don't think he's a Normie quarterback. He's like a Norma human who plays. He's also kind of a Normy quarterback, though. Well, just because I know he shops at, I know he shops at Coles and stuff, but like the dude had the... Coles is the play action of the American Department stores.

He had the thing with the rocks counting down his death thing. That is not normal behavior. He had that, like, in his yard. Yeah, but he usually doesn't. That's fair. That's actually very fair. Kirk has had a couple weird moments. In general, though, this is the guy who likes a button-up flannel,

his quarterback nook, his little office at home, and talking about his old van. Like, he's kind of... I see a guy in a flannel shirt and a van. I'm not saying that's a guy I want to be here. That's a guy I want to hang around. That's all I'm saying. We suddenly ventured into like Gardner Minshu territory. But no, it's a different type of van.

Different type of van. Do you guys not remember the Kirkland? Oh, his minivan. Yeah, he used to drive the minivan. His mini van. He's not selling me. Not selling me. The rock thing's a little awesome gale coated.

I'll just say that. No, stop. It's not. I feel like in a vacuum, you told me a team traded two first round picks to draft J.J. McCarthy. I'm laughing. I'm laughing out laughing. Yeah.

I think the reason it was. works for Minnesota is because the team is good, right? And the coach is good. And they have arguably the best receiver in the league. So you start to like talk yourself into it because oh, JJ McCarthy and he makes good decisions. And I keep coming back to it. And like, Solek has beat this to death. Game on the line at Michigan, they were not going to McCarthy. They're like, nope. Anyone but him. Like third and short, third and medium, they're like, we are running the football. We are finding a way to get the ball out of his hands. And that to me is not a player who trade two first round picks for. It doesn't make sense.

to me. But they want a passenger princess quarterback. Exactly. That's what they want. That is what they want. Then take one, then take one later. Spend less on a passenger princess. Spend less. I'm asking you to spend less. I don't know. To me, I think it could easily work out because the landing spot is so good. The coach is good. You have coaching. You mentioned this. They have job stability. The line is good. It could work out. I just think you're paying too much. If you spend $100 on In-N-Out, yeah, In-N-Out is good, but it's still $100.

Well, that I agree with, because my in-and-out take is that it's not that good. It's just very cheap. Don't even see. The JJ McCarthy trade is like... The look that just came over Austin's face. Yeah, that hurt you.

To your point, if someone tells you someone's trading two first-round picks for J.J. McCarthy, you get the giggles. Very fair. giving Kirk Cousins the first fully guaranteed court of contracted in Annabelle history,

all so funny. Right, that's our thing. It was all so funny, and it still kind of worked out. The entire history of the Vikings organization is like this full of bits. It's just bits over and over, this sad bits that end horribly for them. But make us laugh.

Real quick, how in the hell did the Kirk Cousins thing work out? He won one playoff game, and it was the Minnesota miracle. Am I wrong? Wait. Do I have my back straight? They beat the Saints.

Yeah. Case Keenum is the one that did the mini app is miracle. Making sure. Still, Kirk Cousins has won one playoff. I'm trusting this guy to draft players and he doesn't even know who to them. He won one playoff game in Minnesota and it kind of worked out? I don't get it.

I don't think I agree. And if JJ McCarthy in his four years on his rookie contract, four or five years of a rookie contract wins one playoff game, I don't think that will work out either. I don't know. I find myself frustrated with Minnesota. I don't know. I think they have a good land spot.

I think they signed cousins and they were happy with the amount that they spent on the quarterback position. The team got better as a result and they fielded interesting teams as long as he was healthy. That's above the 50th percentile in terms of quarterback decision making in the National Football League. I don't. Their quarterback philosophy is not my quarterback philosophy. The question, though, of can you? win a Super Bowl with J.J. McCarthy, I just don't think that that drives their decision-making

in the same way that does some other teams. Teams that I would probably say make smarter choices, but I just don't think that I don't think that brain trust thinks like that. Honestly, I think one of my takes is that it's very overrated in

the off-season and especially in the pre-draft process for us to assume that teams, especially like the principal decision maker for a team and the Patriot's case, it's craft, and the Vikings case, maybe it's Quessie. Their principal, the decision maker is like we need to, like, we want to be deep playoff competitive, borderline Super Bowl competitive every single year.

I think oftentimes it's not that. Oftentimes it's be interesting, win games, stay alive. I feel like it's oftentimes like protect your job, hit 60th, 70th percentile, win one playoff game in four years. And like you said, everyone's going to look back on it. interesting, not bad, had a good time. At least we're not the Raiders, or at least we're not the Browns or whoever

where you're just losing every single season. So I do think it gets overrated in the pre-draft process when like, especially like nerdy, stupid guys like me who are like, you got to win, you got to maximize value, don't trade two first round picks or change in McCarthy. Vikings are like, eh, probably win nine games, 10 games within a year. Not bad, well, I'll keep our jobs.

That's probably how they're thinking about it, which is maybe fair. Also, like 11 and 23, who cares? Here we go. that's not that. To get to number four, it's fine. And they have it. And they got ready to do it.

And teams have given up a lot worse. I just, I don't, I do not personally love the philosophy that drives it. However, it is hard. And the more that I think about it, it becomes harder and harder and harder.

To really be like, this is unforgivable. This is like such a suboptimal move that even within the context, even in the context of what they want from that position, with where they feel like the team is, I just, I, I, I sort of have no choice but to, to, not quite respect it, but accept it. Fair enough. All right, Chargers, you are on the clock at number five. I'm watching you, Austin. Don't screw this up, Austin.

The Chargers are trading out of number five overall with, I believe, the Arizona Cardinals. Cardinals are coming back up to five. I'm picking up the 11th overall pick, the 27th overall pick, and a future second to come down from 5 to 11. Cardinals are coming back up. Lindsay, you're on the clock. All right. So the Cardinals have just been moving around, Montaasonfort. He did this last year in his first draft where he, uh,

made multiple trades in the first round to acquire some extra picks. And after the trade with Minnesota, they were flushed with first round picks, four of them, which that's just too many, four first round picks, just too many. So we're going to get rid of one of those picks. We're going to go up and we're going to get the player that we wanted all along, and that is Ohio Statewide receiver Marvin Harrison Jr. So look, Montessonport needed to replenish this roster. the Cardinals desperately needed elite playmakers,

and Marvin Harrison Jr. is the best receiver in this class. It is a Choose Your Honor Adventure type of wide receiver class, which you're going to be able to read about on the ringer later this week, as Austin Gale is writing about that. But we're going to take the guy who is the best at everything. He is the all-around best wide receiver in this class, a guy you can build your franchise around. So this is a pretty easy pick for Montaustin Fort in Arizona,

and now Kyler Murray has a new best friend. I love it. I love it. I love the up and down from the Cardinals, too. Come out of it, pick up some value, come back in, get the best receiver in this class, arguably the best prospect you've seen in the 10 plus years. I'm a big, big fan of Marvin Harrison Jr., too. I feel like it. I feel like Harrison, Jr., too. I think he's going to be ridiculous. Austin, you've had a lot of takes that you've wanted to get off for a long time. I think getting Marvin, I think Marvin Harrison Jr. is going to be freaking awesome. I think he's going to be sick right away and for a long time. Austin, you've had a lot of takes that you've wanted to get off for a long time, I feel like, about the Harrison neighbor's movement and how those two have been seen and compared. You're obviously staying high on Harrison, but what do you think the dynamics underlining that conversation have been? I think part of it has to be Harrison not testing, right? Harrison, not testing, not showing, not going to the combine, not not measuring all that stuff. I think that's part of the conversation. It's just like part of it's, boredom. I think teams also are like, oh man, pro day, four three speed for neighbors, 42-inch ver, and you can kind of start, start, it's maybe recency bias a little bit, and that he's just like more in the conversation. I also could see it easily being teams just throwing smoke out there, man, because I just,

Ruiz, I don't know your takes on the receiver class, but like I can't see neighbors over Harrison Jr. I can't see O'Donzee over Harrison Jr. I really do think he's one of the best wide receiver prospects that has come into the draft in the last 10ish years. I think that for me, when I was doing this superlative speech, it's going to come out in the ringer.com in a couple days here, you know, you try and find, like, who's the best red zone threat? Okay, it's Marvin Harrison, Jr.

Who's the best in contested catch situation? Some will say Ruma Dunzee. Not in my opinion. Marvin Harrison, Jr. Who's the best big play threat? Maybe neighbors. He's got the speed. Marvin Harrison Jr., higher percentage of plays went for 15 plus yards.

Higher percentage of plays went for 20 plus yards. Like, he is better in contested catch situations. He's better in open situations. He creates separation at the line of scrimmage, the body control, the leaping ability. he is a guy who makes the quarterback right when he's wrong, and he also, in my opinion, creates enough separation where your quarterback is consistently right more often

because he's throwing to open receivers. I really do feel he's that good. He would be among the prospects I've looked at, and I've been, my first mock draft, it'll be on my tombstone, was in 2014, looking at the draft for like 10 plus years. He would be this prospect, in my opinion, I'm most surprised by if he doesn't pan out.

I don't know if he's going to bust. Obviously, there's always that percentage, If he does not pan out into being, like, right away, one of the, like, top 12, top 10 receivers in the league and then gets better over time, I will be absolutely shocked. I think he has it all. Yeah, I would have to rethink the wide receiver position and, like, why receivers are good.

He does everything at such a high level. I agree with you. Malik Neighbors has that upside that is very enticing. And, like, you watch his film. And it's more exciting just because Marvin Harrison is so polished that I, I don't think his

exceptionalism really jumps off the spring because he's not doing like these routes that are going to be played on like the Twitter account that that posts all the releases that are like crossovers like basketball crossovers.

He doesn't really do that stuff. It's an efficiency of his movement. He does what he has to do to get open. And I don't think I think one thing we're discounting is just how bad Ohio State's quarterback was this year. he was horrible.

And I don't want to shit all the kid, but he was a bad quarterback. And I watched him a couple times, being a Maryland fan, watching the Big Ten. Like the Maryland game in particular, they lose that game if Marvin Harrison isn't on the field. He literally took over a game

in a way that I've never seen a college wide receiver take over a game with a quarterback who couldn't get him the ball. And Marvin Harrison made it not matter. It did matter because he was going to go get the ball wherever the guy threw it. So I agree with you, Austin. And I think this is a home run picking. a home run moved by Lindsay in Arizona, moving down, picking up draft capital and still picking up with picking up what I believe is the best player outside of Caleb Williams.

And the only reason I think Caleb Williams is better is because he's a quarterback. I'm with you. I'm with you 100%. You bring up the Ohio State quarterback, Kyle McCord. The downgrade from CJ Stroud to Colin McCord was. I didn't want to say his name, man. I mean, McCord, McCord transferred to Syracuse for a reason. Okay.

And what I will say is, McCord might have. have put more acrobatic catches on tape for Harrison because the balls were so off, off target. I also, you bring up the Notre Dame game, there's a play where Marvin Harrison Jr., like to win the game is wide open and just he completely misses him. And I think there's multiple times in the Penn State film from this year versus Kailen King, who could be like a top 60, maybe top 100 cornerback drafted in this class, where like Kaelin King is taking full advantage of the legal contact or lack thereof rules and

college football and just like hanging on this guy. And Marvin Harrison Jr. is dominating the entire game. But still, maybe not having the same success he could have had if he found a throw, you know, found a quarterback who hit the broadside of a barn. So I'm happy about the quarterback play because it was, it's underrated how bad it was going from Stroud to McCord. I'll say his name. So both of you, both of you squarely have Harrison over neighbors. Are both of you the top three in order is Harrison neighbors, Adunze? Oh, it's a tough question with I am

I am a hair because I'm taking a receiver with the Giants pick So go ahead, go ahead, go ahead, go to that. Yeah, you're on the clock. I like Adonzee better, but I'm going to take neighbors with this pick. I think neighbors has a just has a better chance of being that superstar wide receiver,

that receiver you take in the top 10. I don't think Adunze does have that. I think he is very good. And I almost like what Austin said about Marvin Harrison, I'd be very surprised if he doesn't work out in the NFL because he's just so damn good, so damn smart. He's not like the best athlete, but he creates separation.

And like when he's, whether he's coming out of his break or he's at the line of scrimmage trying to beat press, his first step quickness just shows up on film. I don't think he had the fastest 10-yard split in the 40-yard desk, but that's a different thing. this guy just knows how to play football. I really love him as a receiver,

and I would want him on my team. I just wouldn't take him with the six-pick overall. And if I'm the Giants and looking at this depth chart, like, I need a wide receiver. I could not go into next off season, our next season with this receiver room, like Jalen Hyatt, who is a one-trick pony, Darius Slaten, who's like,

we've been trying to make Darius Slateon like a number one receiver for like four years. It's just not going to happen at this point. Not me. Not me. And then Wendell Robinson, who is a gadget player. Like you need a stud receiver at the top of that thing if you're going to make the quarterback position work.

Obviously, we missed that on JJ McCarthy, who we really want it. So I'm going with Malik neighbors. You get your fan base excited. They're not bummed out that he didn't draft a quarterback. And if he makes like three splash plays in his rookie year, Giants fans are going to be all in. And you look like a hero as a GM to your fans.

I'm happy you said that. Yeah, I'm happy you said the comparison between neighbors and O'Donzei being, because how I see it is I think Neighbors has a higher in terms of his range of outcomes there's a higher percentage chance he becomes a true threat number one than O'Doondon's percentage chance.

I also think there's a higher percentage chance O'Doonsday becomes a true number two than O'Donzee maybe does, right? I think it's like there's like a higher bust potential with Malik Neighbors. One of the scariest things I see on tape when people are like, Debo Samuel Light, Jamar Chase, is Neighbors is not a contact seeker.

No. He does not seek out. contact after the catch and isn't like this thumpur-debo chase type in terms of like his play strength and that to me is like comes back a little bit to i know some people have comped him to jalen waddle but he's not jalen waddle fast and so i don't think there's a comp that makes sense for neighbors i think he's lightning fast i really like so much of his tape in terms of how he's able to create separation naturally and that's me i think is why i have o dunzee over or neighbors over o duncee for o dunesay i comps him to miles austin who i think people for

forget, in the peak of his career, Miles Austin was sick, especially when Tony Roman was healthy. And he's someone that attacked the ball really well, fluid, fluid, smooth, and that I think is what O'Donzei brings to the table. He's not this lightning jitterbug that I think Neighbors brings to the table. But I don't know, I like neighbors over O'Donzee. It's close. I think, Breeze, you're right that neighbors is more worth that sixth overall pick or even the fifth overall pick because of this heightened percentage chance that I think he's a star versus O'Donzee maybe being someone who I pick at nine a little bit later as a Chicago Bears guy,

but a little bit later in the draft just because I think he's good, he could be a good wide receiver too, less percentage chance than neighbors in terms of being this true superstar one. And the fact that I'm willing to take him at six, overall, neighbors that is, just speaks to how differently this dude moves,

like how impressive he is with the ball in his hands because like as a receiver, like running routes before the ball gets to his hands, I don't like his game at all. Like I think he's easily knocked, off balance when he's running routes against physical corners. He's a body catcher. He does create separation, like naturally, like Austin said,

but I don't think he's doing it with technique at all. And like the guys at the next level, the cornerbacks are the next level. They are round one athletes too. So I don't know if that advantage is going to be there. But if he puts it all together, and that type of receiver has kind of been my blind spot for prospects. So I don't want to miss out on that if I'm the Giants D. because if he, or the Giants front office,

because if he works out, he's going to be a star. He's going to be a superstar, like Odell Beckham level. So it's possible, since I have the Titans who are up here next at 7. And without spoiling, where I'm definitely going with a pick,

Adunze is on the, is a contender. And that's in spite of the fact that, you know, wide receiver is not really a high priority for this Titans Rock. right now. However, sometimes you do, you think about taking best player available in this wide receiver classes is being billed as one that's particularly exciting. So I'm curious,

again, without spoiling what I'm going to do here. I want to know where you guys are on this as a potentially sort of historic top of the first round for the receivers, even within the context of feels like every year these days is the greatest. receiver draft. How does what could end up being a run somewhere inside the top 10 of Harrison Neighbors of Dunes A, potentially

in that order, potentially in some other order? When all is said and done, do we feel like, you know, holy smokes at the top of the first round, some notable talent at this position just entered the NFL, or is that a little bit of an overstatement? Austin, I'll kick that to you first.

I think the first class that comes to mind, obviously the most recent class is the Jamar Chase, Jalen Waddle, Devante Smith class. And all three of those guys went inside the top 10. I think there's a very good chance that of Dunezay, Neighbors, and Marvin Harrison, Jr. all go in the top 10. I think Marvin Harrison Jr. is a better prospect than Jamar Chase coming out. But after that, it's hard to say if neighbors is a better prospect than what Jalen

Waddle was coming out of Alabama. I don't think let's call that. Yeah, yeah. I don't know. I don't know if I don't know if I'm ready to say. say he is. And even if you give that a push, right? You know, I like this, I like that or whatever. When you get to O'Donzee versus Devante Smith, Eileen Smith, I think Smith was a more polished, more refined, nuanced Routrunner. Now, the other part of Devante Smith's profile that was over-discussed into

oblivion in that pre-draft process was obviously how skinny he was. And there weren't a lot of examples of players being that razor thin having success in the NFL. I think it's on par with that class. And like when you think about those three receivers, Devante Smith, Jamar Chase Jamal Waddle, I mean, you're at worst talking about a true one, one of the top five,

top six receivers in the league and then two like legitimate, legitimate number twos, if not like arguably, like number ones on bad football teams. I think that's what this kind of, what this class could be with the Dunesay Neighbors and Marvin Harrison,

Jr. I think Marvin Harrison Jr. is going to be a true one. And neighbors and O'Donzee, I think ultimately do land on these like second pieces to an offense where there maybe are some bigger players are obviously like true number ones on those teams. I almost think that 2021 class is far and ahead above this class. Like, I really love those 3S prospects. Jalen Waddle's tape at Alabama was amazing.

Devon DeVon DeVosmith was my wide receiver one. And I don't think that was like the worst take even in hindsight. Like he's been a very good receiver in a number two role. My comparison would be the 2021 quarterback class. Like that's what I think this is going to be, like a hyped up class. But like outside of that top prospect, Oh, no. You really don't know what you're going to get out of these guys.

Like, they could hit and become stars, but they could become what the 2021 quarterback class did become, where it was just one generational prospect at the top. We ended up being good, and then the rest of them kind of had questionable careers. I could see that playing out. I would run the ticket up for Marvin Harris & Deter. I would not for these other two.

Even though I love the dudes A good. I do love him as a prospect, just in the top 10, is a little too rich for me. Before we move on to the Titans pick, Stephen, was there any other position that you seriously considered there for the Giants? Would it have been,

it was just only if McCarthy was going to be there, you would take him as a quarterback? Was there anything else defense, offensive line that you were? I thought about defense, like defensive line building up that defensive line, but obviously they get burns, they have Tibado.

There's some question marks about Tibido. So I don't want to take any of the edge guys and I'm not taking an interior guy, that early. Then obviously, offensive tackles a tricky thing with them, even though this offensive tackle class is very good at the top. Like, I just think you can't pass up on a blue trip prospect

when you're picking at that spot, especially this team which needs stars. That's what I was just thinking. I mean, once they lost Sakewan, I mean, their roster is just devoid of anybody who can really make plays. It's really sad. So quarterback situation, still a mess, but at least

you have now one guy who maybe fans can get excited about by the jersey. No one's getting excited about Daniel Jones in 2024? Absolutely not. All right. Well, I'm, if I'm on the clock here as the Titans, I think, I guess I lean maybe a little bit more towards Stephen's line of thinking if Harrison's obviously off the board here, if neighbors is off the board here.

So if I want to go for one of those top, top three guys, it's a Dunezay who I love, like, but I'm, am not excited about enough. I'm not sprinting up to turn the card in enough to pass up what is just like a really obvious position of need fit, which is for me to draft Joe Alt, tackle from Notre Dame. I have, I have had serious issues in terms of left tackle trying to do the Andre Dillard thing, trying to do the Nicholas Pity. prayer thing, injuries, poor play. It's just a total question mark.

And I don't know if you guys have noticed, but I, the Tennessee Titans, have been a little bit on one this offseason. Going for it a bit because it's really important to me to spice things up around Will Levis so that I can get a really clear evaluation there in 2024. And so I think if that's my objective, I've got to go ahead here and protect his blindside.

I think that's the smartest move. I do like, like, Adunze would be a good fit for Will Levis, who just likes to chuck the ball down field, like, no matter what. And Adunte, as we saw at Washington, can track those deep balls. He doesn't, like, he doesn't necessarily profile as, like, this deep threat just because he isn't the fastest dude. But I think he might be the best deep threat in this clash just because of that ball tracking ability, which I think is like 75% of being a deep threat in the NFL.

All right. Falcons on the clock. All right. So that's me. And I was looking at all of the defensive players. This has been a strictly offensive draft so far. And the Falcons have already done a lot of investing in their offense. Previous years in the draft, all the first round picks they've used on skill position players.

Obviously, all of the money that they just spent on Kirk Cousins to upgrade the quarterback position there. So this is a defensive draft. They just hired a defensive-minded head coach. in Rahim Mores. And now the question is, for me, as Terry Fontno, the general manager, is trying to decide if we want to go edge rusher or cornerback. And we have the entire defensive draft board in front of us. But ultimately, we are going to take Dallas Turner, the edge rusher out of Alabama as the first defensive player in this draft,

was also looking really closely at Terry and Arnold, Dallas Turner's teammate from Alabama, and Quinnian Mitchell from Toledo, the top. cornerbacks in this draft. And cornerback is a need as well. You know, they have AJ Terrell on one side, but I think he's, and I think he has one year left on his deal. But their address situation is really, really rough. Nobody on the team had more than six and a half sacks last year. And Clayers Campbell, the guy with six and a half sacks, he's not on the roster anymore. Sorry, I just lost my, Bud Dupree, six and a half sacks last year, also not on this roster anymore. So they're just desperately in need of edge rush help.

And that's why we're going to go Dallas Turner here. And, you know, Rahim has a history of working with defensive backs. That's kind of where he came up as a coach. He was a DB's coach. But as a defensive coordinator with the Rams, he also knows how important it is to have a

strong pass rush and defensive line. Did good work last year with him and his defensive coaching staff, getting Kobe Turner, you know, turning him to a quality defensive lineman there in L.A. So I just think that this is the position that makes the most sense for them to go. So that's where I'm at. And now all the cornerbacks are available for you fine, ladies and gentlemen.

I think that Dallas Turner has been the player most mocked of late to Atlanta overall. And I think it makes a ton of sense. I think Dallas Turner is a consensus top 12, top 14 player in this class. He's super explosive, super long, all that stuff that you look for at the edge road position. I also feel like it could be a trade. I know you're not picking up calls, Lindsay, but I also think it could be a sneaky trade-down spot for Atlanta just because there are going to be teams who want to get ahead of this tackle run

that is going to come up here in a little bit, where Olufu Shanao of Penn State is going to come off the board, Talis Fulaga, Oregon State is going to come off the board, J.C. Latham in Alabama is going to go over Grand Bart. There is a lot of tackle talent that I think is going to come off the board between picks 8 and 15, 8 and 16, to have your team looking to come up and get your pick of the litter after Joel. Obviously, Joel already off board of Tennessee.

I do think this is where maybe Atlanta picks up some calls. And now you rarely see a trade up for a non-quarterback in this league. But if there's one man who'll do it, it's mad Mickey Loomis. And I know it's an interventional trade, but I don't think he even cares about that. I don't think he cares about that. I still remember to this day when he traded essentially a future first, a future second, and four day three picks to go up and get Chris Olav. And Chris Olavay has worked.

Has he worked to the point where he's better than like six players? Hard to say. But Mickey Loomis doesn't care. He doesn't look at the cap. It doesn't look at draft capital. It doesn't matter. If he wants to go get a guy and then you factor in, Ryan Ramchick has the injury.

Maybe he's not able to play this year. Is this a spot where he sniffs a trade up at eight? If not, and he doesn't like the interdivisional or whatever happens, happens. Then I think the Bears at 9 is another spot where maybe he looks to come up and say like, hey, I'm going to get ahead of the Jets at 10. I'm going to get ahead of whoever ends up picking up at 11. I know we've traded it a couple times. Whoever ends up in 11.

I do think this is mad, man, Mickey Loomis's opportunity. I love when he does these tradeups. It's the charges right now at 11. Yeah, yeah. But I'm a huge fan. I'm a huge fan. Stephen or Mickey Loomis representative?

I would love a trade-up, but I didn't put in any calls. Because like Mickey Loomis, I don't like paying attention to the details. I don't care about the salary cap. I don't care about any. I'm just going to let a player fall to me at 14. But I really love Dallas Turner's,

First of all, he's one of my favorite defensive players in this draft because I think he's like the perfect modern edge. I'm happy to swap with you because I think we could still get Dallas Turner at like 14. I'll give you Tayson Hill, Derek Carr, the whole quarterback room. You can have him. You can have who else can you have? You can have Dennis Allen too. I don't really care. I'll trade anyone for Dallas Turner.

I think New Orleans could really use a guy like that on their edge. But I just think he's like the perfect modern edge. And he's really good for Rahim Morris's scheme in particular. Like he loves an athletic edge that he could drop into coverage if he has to because he loves like those fire zone blitzes. This would be a home run pick for Atlanta, but I do agree with Austin that I think they could like trade down and still end up with this player. The reason that and I feel like it's always like fun to be like they can be a trade down team. They can be a trade down team. It's hard.

What has to be said is what is the team looking to come up and why are they coming up? The only team I see like trading up for a non-quarterback and like really trying to get ahead of this is bad man. Mickey Lewis. Like, that's the only guy who's like, yeah, I'm going to mortgage future draft capital to go get a non-quarterback again. And it's going to work out again. I can't believe you only mentioned Alave. Don't you like, you're, Marcus Avedport.

Yeah, he made the trade up for. Yeah. He tried up for Marcus Davenport with Lamar Jackson on the board. Didn't he trade up for Trevor Penning too? Yeah, he traded up for Trevor Penning. He traded up for Marcus Davenport. He traded up for Chris Salave. People forget.

He traded up for Zach Bond. He also traded up for Adam Troutman. He likes a trade up. If he likes a guy, he's going to go get him. That's just a fact. It's going to be really funny if the Jets for the second year in a row eyeing an offensive line prospect get leapfrogged and just absolutely screwed out of the pick that they want. I absolutely hope that happens. Yeah.

Real Mickey Loomis. I hope you're more aggressive than fake Mickey Loomis was. Let's put the Chicago Bears with the ninth pick back on the clock, Stephen. This is me. This is me. Oh, excuse me. I'm coming in. Excuse me.

I saw this on Twitter and I don't remember who said it, but I'm going to steal it anyway. Rome wasn't built in the day, but he's coming to Chicago. Anyway, we're bringing Roma Dunezay. We're bringing Roma Dunesay to Chicago. I think that there are people who will be like, but they have Ken and Allen and they have DJ Moore. Why not out of tackle here?

Why not do this or that? My opinion is just throw the kitchen stick at receivers, man. I really do think that Caleb Williams obviously is going to benefit from a good offense blind. and you could take tackle here, I think that's fine. I think Adunze is really good. I also think he'll benefit for being in a receiver room with Keenan Allen and DJ Moore

as he develops as a receiver and doesn't have to be immediately the guy. I'm high on Adunzee. I like Adunzea a lot. Do I like the idea of him being immediately the third option in an offense and allowing him to develop under two really good receivers? Yes, I like that a lot more than him going somewhere and immediately being a number one

or even having to immediately be a number two. For me, Chicago, this makes too much sense. unless you're getting trade-up offers that really are really enticing, getting Caleb another receiver and continue to invest in the offense to throw everything you have at developing this quarterback, not just in trying to help him be good, but to also really tell yourself if he's good or not. So you're not in this situation, two, three, four years down the line where you're like,

is he good, is he not? Has he had the right situation? All that stuff. I like Adunze. If he's there at nine, I think the bear sprint to pick in again. And I would say Adunze is like the type of receiver that needs a specific type of quarterback to get the most out of him. And I think Caleb Williams is that type of quarterback. Caleb Williams is going to give him chances to catch contested balls. But he's going to give

him like good ball placement. It's not going to be like Pennicks for, for instance, where he had to make these acrobatic catches, which kind of are probably improved his draft stock, but like made things harder for him at Washington. Well, and it's good news for the Jets who are now on the board at number 10. I was going to take an offensive tackle. But Eric, Roger called me. Oh, gosh. We're on it. We talk.

We talk. Aaron Rogers called me. And he's been watching Brock Bowers tape. And Aaron Rogers has never really had that reliable tight end. And he wanted one. They tried in Green Bay for many years to get a tight end. Martellus Bennett, do you remember the Martellus Bennett disaster? He never really had a tight end.

Now he gets one in Brock Bowers. And I know there are a lot of concerns about Brock Bowers. And like he's undersized as a tight end. and you don't know if he can do like the two-way thing like George Kittle. But I know there are questions about taking a tight end this high, but you see him with the ball in his hands and it's special. I don't compare him to any other tight end. I don't care about the other tight ends that have failed.

I don't care about what Kyle Pitts has done in Arthur Smith's offense. If I'm a coach, if I'm a coaching staff, I trusted myself to get Brock Bowers the ball. And I know if I get him the ball, he's going to do things special. I have Aaron Rogers. He's going to get him the ball. So I'm going for it anyway. The Jets have to win a Super Bowl this year or it's going to get blown up anyway.

So why not take a player that I know can come in and make plays for me on day one? An offensive tackle, I don't know if they're helping me win in 2024. I heard the weight concerns and I saw them and I was worried going into the combine. When he weighed in just one pound less than Sam LaPorte, I threw those out the window. I feel fine about it. I feel fine about the size. And in terms of spending premium draft capital on a tight end, it's rarely, rarely worked out.

Really rarely worked out. A lot of that because the tight ends end up depending out. But even more of that is because they don't end up panning out until their second contract. Think about like David & Jokin or Evan Ingram or even T.J. Hawkinson. Like they don't often pan out until they get to their second team of their second contract where they get further in their developmental curve. With Brock Bowers, I was ready to be like,

I'm not taking this guy in the top 15, not top 18. Then you watch the Auburn game. And you're like, wait, I don't think I've seen. a tight end take over a game like that in a long time. I don't know, I don't know if, having that kind of player who, like, just do or, like, no matter what I'm taking over, like this is stuff that we didn't even see from Kyle Pitts. Kyle Pitts, better athlete, Kyle Pitts, maybe a better, maybe a better, like, athletic profile, obviously. You never saw him do that, right? Where you turn on the Auburn tape from this past year with Brock Bowers, and it's like,

oh my God, they're winning because of him. Like, they're literally winning because he single-handling winning the game. And that, I think, is the vow where Danny Kelly, great draft analyst here at Ringer made the comp to Dallas Clark, rewatching some old Dallas Clark film, I see the vision. I see the vision. Like, it's a guy that you just, I see it too, super reliable over the middle of the football field, catches everything,

and just a dynamic playmaker with the ball in his hands. I mean, Peyton Manning made a living with it. I think it's a good pick. I like it at 10. And here's my thing about the positional value thing with tight ends. Like, yeah, top 10, and tight ends rarely work out. Like, Vernon Davis might be the best example of one working out.

And even he didn't reach his potential. but like retroactively, if we knew what Grock was going to turn into, I would draft him with the second overall. I don't know what, I forget what draft he was in. I'm assuming a quarterback went first, but I would draft him in the top five. I would take Gronk first overall if it's a shitty quarterback class.

I would take Kelsey first overall if it's a shooting quarterback class. So I'm not concerned about that. And if I think I can make this guy work and I can make this guy hit, which you should as a coach. If you're like afraid to take Brock Bowers, you're scared to compete, compete, make him, like do your job, coach. Also, I feel like the biggest part, the biggest part of the positional value piece is oftentimes these good prospects, guys, you want to take in the top 10, top 15, top 20 at the tight end position get really good when they turn 26, 27, 28. Like in Joku with Cleveland right now, arguably what, top eight, top seven tight end right now?

I mean, he is very good. And I think Hawkinson is at that level. There's other, Evan Ingram has gotten better once he's left Giants and gone to Jacksonville. With Bowers, he's already balding. he's already balding and therefore further in his maturation last tight end to do that last tight end to do that

Jason Witten now we're cooking now now you see the vision now we're talking all right pre early balding good sign for tight ends that said I was also rewatching games and I somehow found myself watching branded pedigrew

tape again that guy was horrible that was when you that was a miss That was amiss by the Detroit Lions. This one I don't think will be one. I like how Austin said I was also rewatching games when he's the only person on this pod that has said that they're rewatching games. I think that the amount of Brandon Pedigrew film in your life might have something to do with why you're thinking about death and mortality.

Yeah, yeah, no, it is. It is. It definitely is. Oh, man, it 100% is. I mean, that guy dropped everything thrown his way. I don't remember what game I was watching. this key fumble, it's like literally stripped from his, it's rough. Was he the Oklahoma State guy?

Was he the Oklahoma State guy? I can't remember where he went to school. I'm pretty sure he played with Brandon Whedon, too. Him and Brandon Whedon, both got drafted in the first round. I'm pretty sure. Both not very good. Yeah, he was OK State. Okay, I think I'm going to put the chargers on the board

because I just didn't expect us to be bringing up Brandon Whedon at this point in the podcast. I'm back on the board. same number of playoffs is Justin Herbert. I'm back on the board. How often do people tweet that to you? I'm happy I traded down. Jim Harbaugh has talked a lot in the offseason about building through the offensive line.

I think there's parts of him that will regret passing on Marvin Harrison, Jr. I think a lot of people will have those conversations. But picked up good draft capital in the trade. And still at this spot, I can take one of the best offensive linemen in this class. And now that the Jets have passed on this guy, I'm going to sprint the card. And again, a lot of sprinting in. I'm taking Talis Fulag out of Oregon State. A monster. A meaning. Just the guy you want on the offensive line. Just a just a rude dude. And I'm all in on it. I think that's exactly the type of the type of mentality. Harbs is trying to

bring. Harbs. To Los Angeles. I will say heavily recruited Harbaugh did. Polu Fushano. He also heavily recruited J.C. Latham. I wonder how much the recruiting process comes into this evaluation. But I like Fulag. I think he's the best tackle available right now in this spot. I disagree with that part, but I agree with the fact that he's the perfect tackle for

Jim Hardball, Greg Roman offense. Now, I don't know if that's what you want. That's what you're looking for in 2020. But this is a Stephen Rui's approved pick for the charges. If you picked some other position and not offensive line, I would have jumped through the screen and try to fight you. What are your tackle rankings right now?

You mean like total? Or like with the guys on the board? Your top three, top four? I don't want to reveal. I'm going to draft a tackle soon. Okay, sorry, sorry, sorry. I'll get to it when I get to it. All right, who's got the Broncos?

Well, I was going to say, before we, I have the Broncos at 12. Is there anybody who would like to make a deal to get an offensive tackle speak now or forever hold your peace? Yeah, this is Pittsburgh calling. We have a backup quarterback named Russell Wilson. Are you interested? We're already paying for him, so now. Oh, sorry. I'm going to hang up.

Got it. Got it. Thanks, thanks, Omar. Okay. Since I have no calls to move up to 12, because I, Sean Payton, and my buddy, George Peyton, the Peyton brothers,

were stunned to see Brock Bowers go off the board. We were ready to draft Brock Bowers here at number 12. The Broncos are a weird spot, kind of a bad spot. Might have heard that they need a quarterback. And I, Lindsay Jones, acting as general manager here, I cannot take Bonix at this spot. I cannot guarantee you that Sean Payton will not feel the same, but I just cannot do it.

They're in a tough spot. The quarterback depth start right now in Denver, not great. It is Jarrett Stidham and Ben Danucci. Maybe remember Ben Danucci from, what league did he play in Stephen? XFL, AASF? The XFL. couldn't beat the DC defenders in two times trying. Lost to them in the playoffs and in the regular season.

How big is the jar for Danucci? Does Danucci have a jar? Or, I mean, I don't know. I don't think we need have been Danucci jar yet, but it's on notice. We might get that invention. I would take Jay McCarthy and I would trade two first off. Do you know how much we bring up Sam Darnold? This is a high bar.

Fair, fair, fair. So just to get back on track here, The quarterback depth chart, not great. Jared Stedham and Ben Danucci, they really, really need a quarterback here. They do not have a second round pick. So the Broncos are not in a great situation, despite what Sean Payton said at the owners meetings last week, that trading up would be, quote, realistic. They just do not have the capital, I think, to move up in the way that some of their teams,

Minnesota already has started to move up and could already has moved up in this mock as well, that the Raiders potentially could do. They're sitting there at 13. And as much as both Bo Nix and a little bit of Michael Pennix kind of fit as a Sean Payton quarterback, Knicks especially, this just feels too high. And there's too many holes on the rest of this roster. And I think this is going to be a pretty bad team next year.

Sean Payton and George Payton probably aren't thinking that. George Payton very much in job saving mode right now. I can't, honestly, for a lot of reasons, can't really believe he still has his job. currently, Sean Payton is not in job preservation mode right now. He'll get rid of George Payton way before she has in any danger of business. What mood is Sean Peyton, man? I don't.

I really don't. I mean, probably regretting taking this job in the first place. I don't know. So, sorry, go ahead, Austin. I was going to say, I feel like the mode that Denver Broncos need to be in is make a good decision. Like make a just watch the decision. I don't I don't know. Denver

Broncos do one thing right challenge. I mean, obviously Patrick Sertan, first round pick in 2021, quarterback, I think that has been a slim dunk. He's exceeded even high expectations. Every other decision this team has made, I can't get on board.

They just get good players in the building. Get good players in the building and just chalk it up to another day. Like I, I, this is a roster that is very, very far away. And their cap situation, obviously, the Russell Wilson contract is for it. I don't see the reason to even mortgage anything to go up and get a guy. I would rather watch the Vikings go get J.J. McCarthy for two first-round picks

and stay put at 12 and take BPA, best player available, a little abbreviation for you. And then from there, he's cool. Yeah, so that's an undermine the worth of doing the abbreviation if you follow it up with little abbreviation there for you. I hate that I did it. I'm not happy that it happened. I mean, if Stefan can cut it out of the pot, I'd appreciate it, but otherwise, you know, We ride with all.

So we, this is what we are going to do is the Denver Broncos. We are going to stick to the board. We're going to take the best player available. We just need to get good, impactful players who maybe will stick around for longer than two or three years.

And we're going to take Olu Fashanu tackle from Penn State. I should have traded up. Matt, Matt, Mickey should have traded up. This is why Matt Mickey trades up. This is why he trades up there. The Broncos would have taken more.

picks because, as we said, very bad roster, but instead, they're going to take an offensive line because, well, offensive line is actually of the groups, position groups on the Broncos roster, probably the least concerning group. Garrett Bowles has been a fine left tackle. He's now, you know, starting to get older, but they just need good players in this building. Mike McClinty hasn't been great. I think Garrett Bowles was a guy who could get cut at some point soon and just stay true of the board, take the best player. He's number seven on Danny Kelly's big board right now. Multiple players behind him. Actually, well, no, just one player behind him. Three players, multiple players. I take that back. Jane Daniels 10th on Danny Kelly's big board.

So multiple players behind him already gone. So we're just going to stick with value and take the best player available and go with the tackle. Love it. Love it. Raiders are on the clock. Tom's the Littsco found a way to not trade up for J.J. McCarthy. he also found a way to not take Michael Pennex or Bo next year, despite how interested maybe Antonio Pierce is in upgrading the quarterback room. We will wait till day two and target Spencer Rattler. I think I like corner. I like corner here a lot for the Las Vegas Raiders. The cornerback room in Vegas is horrid, and it has been horrid,

really ever since Namdi Asimala left in the early 2000s. I don't think it's been good for a long time. I really don't know where I honestly stand. on the cornerback class is the thing. I think Quinnian Mitchell is the consensus best top corner, the Toledo corner. I know a lot of people really like Terriott Arnold out of Alabama. There's also conversation around Nate Wiggins of Clemson. I think it's really tight.

I lean Terry on Arnold of Bama. I like Arnold a lot. I think Quinnian Mitchell could be better. I don't know. I don't know. I think this is a tough pick. And when you get to this part of the draft, I think you are kind of splitting hairs oftentimes. I think I'm going to force corner, though, and I am going to go Terry on Arnold out of Alabama.

I think that's a good pick. I think that's my favorite corner in the draft. I guess I'll go now. I'm very upset. I'm very distraught as Mickey Loomis. I really want it. Shanu. Now I don't know where to go.

I'm going to go BPA, a little abbreviation for you guys. I'm going to go Jared Verst. The Saints need a defensive end. They've lost them. I know, I know. They've lost a lot of talent on the defensive line, especially on the edges of the last couple of years in free agency. We need to replenish that.

God knows Mickey Loomis loves to take a mid-round defensive end in the first round. I'm not excited about it. I want it for Sean. I would have been very excited about a young developmental offensive tackle who plays football well. I think that's the ideal pick in the middle of the first round, and it would have really set up New Orleans well. But this is a bummer of a pick for me. And can I retroactively trade up?

I'll trade up for J.J. McCarthy if I can. The good news is, is you know. You didn't offer me enough. You offered me. Russell Wilson, who's not even on our team. Well, that's from the Steelers. You offer me Taysam Hill and Dennis Allen, if I recall correctly. Dennis Allen could coach.

The good news is if you're a Saints fan, you don't have to fear this image of Mickey Loomis not getting his guy because he gets his guy. So this isn't going to happen in real life. If he has a real interest in any of these people, like the tackles at the top, he's going to go up and get him. So I don't think he's going to be in a position where he's taking BPA. He's going to go get his guy. Austin, do you want to explain any more to say on your ewe on the pronounced ewe,

you admitted when Stephen made his bigger? I'm just not all that high on Jared Burr. I think he's fine. I think he's good. I think out of the box he'll be fine. I'd rather have in this spot Troy Fultano who could play multiple positions. I might even rather have it. I don't even like him all that much.

J.C. Latham, the offensive tackle out of Alabama. I don't know. Even LATU-LATU, the UCLA edge, I might like a little bit more than Jared Verst. It's hard. That's a personal evaluation. The medicals with LATU are just too much for me. Fatu is like the guy I considered, because they need help all over the offensive line. Like they have a weird offensive line situation with their guards and tackles.

So I could see that. I was just hard for me to go with the same position after the guy that I had at the top of my board. got snigged from me. That's what she got. I'm not happy about the first thing. That's what you get, Trader Mickey for not being Trader Mickey. All right. All right.

I'm up next year. I've got the Colts. And I think the most, the easiest way to think about what Chris Ballard is likely to do is just like, the man loves a toolsy player. And cornerback is a big time need in Indianapolis right now. And so I think I keep it simple. Quinion Mitchell generally consensus top guy in the draft ran a 433, you know, explosive athlete, really, really, you know, mussely frame, tested really, really well in Indianapolis.

And so I think I just stick with a position of need, consensus, best player who does fit, sizewise, like a little small for the general Chris Ballard profile, but just in general fits the profile of an explosive athlete. So that's what I'm going to do at 15 overall. And I think this works for ballot. I was going to say it works for ballot because he loves a small school guy because he likes to get that extra credit for a pick.

If you pick a guy out of a small school and he hits, it makes you feel like a smarter GM. And I think he really goes. He realized how much goodwill he earned by that like Darius Letter pick and drafting all those guys on day two. So I think I like this. I'm going to whisper arm length.

I'm going to whisper it, you know, 31-inch arms. I don't know if Chris Baller's dueling over that. But I do think that Mitchell, at this point, I wonder if he just becomes a value when he gets halfway through the first round, just because he has a lot of it won. How much do you take the success of Trent McDuffie? McDuffie had concerns about his arm size too. Me included, like after the first round, I was like, maybe he's just a slot corner. And that's obviously where he's had his success.

but I think he's going to transition to an outside role and I think he's capable of it. I could see the same situation here. Yeah, I think McDuffie better instincts coming out. I was higher on McDuffie, maybe. I was higher than McDuffie a lot of people.

I like McDuffie a lot coming out. It's hard to say. Quinion Mitchell, I think, is a, I think has more inside outside versatility than McDuffie did. McDuffie came in with like under 30-inch arms, which essentially is a death-mell for playing outside cornerback in the NFL.

I think with Quinnian-Michael, being 31 is fine. I don't know. I'm interested to see how he pans out because there are so many other, like, you know, there's other tools he cornerbacks in this class. I like Terry.

I don't know how it's nice tools. I like McGins a lot. There's, it'll be interesting to see who ends up being the CB1 in the NFL, you know, two, three years down. No one's going to mention Cooper. Sorry, Stephen.

I was going to say, no one's going to mention, you didn't mention Cooper? Oh, no. And I like Cooper to Jean a lot, too. I think he sticks out of corner. I think he's, he's a crazy outfit too.

the Colts could also like I don't if the board shakes out differently and there's and a couple corners go off a little earlier I don't I think they would make that pick here all right we ready for the last pick

of the draft last but not least the Seattle Seahawks at number 16 and for this exercise it doesn't really work I think John Schneider is going to trade out like I would be very surprised if John Schneider's actually step it

you know sending in a pick here at 16 there's nobody who loves to trade back more than John Schneider. The anti-McCillumus. He really is. So if somebody in your hypothetical, one of my fellow general managers here, wants to hop on the phone really quick and make a call, I don't, it's all hypothetical. So let's say John Schneider is making a pick here. We're going to go with Troy Fountainau. Fottnow, excuse me. Tackle guard from Washington.

They really need more interior help than they do tackle help. but this is the guy who can play both positions. He's local. They've gotten a really good look at him. Fills a position of need. It's a tough spot, I think, for Seattle, kind of being at 16. And a lot of the places that they need help are positions where you're not going to get a ton of value in the first round. So I'm just, I'm almost more interested in what they're going to do in the later rounds of the draft,

what they're going to do with their edge rush, what they're going to do at lineback or what they're going to do at safety, positions that they really weren't going to address here at 16. So they're going to take font now and feel great about it. I think that's a good pick. I think it off. Sorry, I keep transposing my letters. There's a lot of, there's a lot of F names with the offensive tackles. It's hard to, like, keep track of them. But I, I think that's a smart pick for them just because it gives you some insurance for Abe Lucas, who's had some trouble staying healthy. And we've seen what happens to that, that offense when that offensive, obviously it's a new offensive coordinator,

but we've seen that offense just implode when their offensive line gets injured later in the year. So I think, strengthening that offensive line. Like, I would be fine with them staying put in making that actual pick. I would too. I would too. I think everybody would be except for John Schneider. Except for John Schneider.

Yeah. I like his tape a lot. I like that he can play multiple positions. I think there's a good chance he even goes higher in the spot just because teams are going to really value that positional versatility. And just having that athleticism, like, he might be the best of the athletes of the offensive task. all things considered. I think just having that in this day and age. And that way he's Seahawksy too.

Yeah. Just being able to do so much offensively, I think it's going to work. And obviously, like the offense, being in the office, the save office corner, it kind of helps a lot too. All right. Good first round team or good half of the first round. I was trying really hard to trade all of my picks. I know.

I saw you. You were typing away. I'm like, what's she up to in that little? square over there. Any big regrets? Any huge victories, Austin? Yeah, I'm a loser. If I was doing day one,

winners and losers, Saints would be at the top of my list. I'm not excited about that. But the rest of my picks I feel pretty good about, especially the commanders. I'd say biggest loser for me is me. I didn't like the BPA spelling out their abbreviation. I think I said Sprint the Cardin too many times. I also think I mentioned Sam Darnold too many times.

I think it's a nomenclature word usage loss for me in this one. I think you're a winner for the death reference that kicked us off here. I think it really set the stage for this. And that's essential podcasting. That's a, that's, that's, that's, I was trying to do a BPA thing with, with that best podcaster available, but I don't know. You know what? It worked out and we're all going to die someday.

And the pop record. You heard it here first. This has been dual threat on the ringer and bell show. feed. I'm Nora Princeati. Thank you to Lindsay Jones, Austin Gail, Stephen Ruiz for joining me on the pod. Thank you to Kiara Gibbons and Eduardo Ocampo for their work on video and socials. Thank you to Stefan Anderson for producing this episode. Thank you to Arjuna Ramgapal and Connor Evans for their additional production supervision.

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