The Ringer NFL Show - A New Deshaun Watson Report, Plus the Broncos Sale and Aaron Donald’s Extension

Episode Date: June 8, 2022

Kevin, Nora, and Steven open by discussing the New York Times report on the additional Deshaun Watson sexual misconduct lawsuits and his actions throughout the past few years. They break down the Texans' and Browns' involvement, discuss a potential suspension and what this could mean for Watson’s career. They close by analyzing the Broncos being sold to the Walton-Penner group and Aaron Donald’s contract extension. Host: Kevin Clark, Nora Princiotti, and Steven Ruiz Associate Producer: Stefan Anderson Research: Julianna Ress and Dan Comer Copyediting: Craig Gaines and Jack McCluskey Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Bill Simmons. We're not just reacting to the NBA playoffs on my podcast. We're also doing it on the Ringer NBA show and the Mismatch podcast. They are coming after some of these NBA playoff games. Check it out, Monday, Wednesday, and Friday nights on the Ringer podcast Network. It is the Ringer NFL show, part of the Ringer Podcast Network. I am Kevin Clark joined on a beautiful Wednesday morning by Nora Prince of the Nore. Hello. Hello, Kevin.

Stephen Ruiz. How's it going? It's going well. A couple of things. So we were going to do a top 10. We're going to start a series of top tens in the off season. We were going to start that today with past catchers. We're not going to do that.

There's too much news. On Friday, we have a past catcher. Speaking of past catchers, Cooper Cup will be joining us on Friday. We'll do an episode very similar to what we did with Justin Herbert a couple weeks ago, where we just talked fall, have a great time with them. Cooper obviously has a lot of good insights. So lack will not be joining us. He has a question.

he's been dying to ask since the Super Bowl. We will have him write it down, and one of us will deliver it to Cooper Cup because he desperately needs this question answered about a scheme in the Super Bowl. But Cooper Cup will be with us. On Friday, we'll have that episode to you for the weekend. There is news to get to, we will get to it.

Deshawn Watson, there's a new turn in his case. Jenny Vrentice from the New York Times. It reported that Watson booked appointments with at least 66 different women and that 17 months from the fall of 2019 through the spring of 2021, Watson had put that number around 40 initially.

Most of the women that Watson saw for massages did not sue or call the police. But Varentas did speak to women who said that this was within the group that did not sue, that Watson was begging for sexual activity.

This is obviously something Watson denies. the scope of the story changed as well with the story because Jenny Brent has reported that the Texans provided a venue for some of these appointments and also that they had provided some nondisclosure agreements as well. The Texans did not respond to the New York Times questions about this. But obviously, this changes a lot about the way

we're processing this story. Norah, when you saw it, you thought what? Well, there's, we should differentiate between the civil litigation issues and the NFL's issues. In terms of the legal situation that Deshaun Watson's in, lawyers look for patterns. 66 is a pattern. I don't really know how else you spin it. So you could argue that how is 66, you know,

really all that much more of a pattern than 22 or 24, but the numbers do. matter here even when many of these women, including many of the ones who have spoken out and accused Watson of these things, are not suing him. Some of them are, but some of them are not. In terms of how the NFL looks at this, I have to be honest with you, I am a little bit out of loss. It was very difficult for me to read Jenny's reporting, which was incredibly thorough and well done and not think how do they move forward from here. But I thought that at other junctures in this case.

And then the Brown signed him for $230 million. So. Yeah. That's absurd. It's absurd. So just to get the facts out there about what's actually happening in this case, 24 women now, it's 24 as of this week, have filed suits in Harris County, Texas, alleging sexual misconduct and coercion against Deshawn Watson.

Two of those include claims of sexual assault. We don't know what the timetable is for those lawsuits. Obviously, the grand jury did not move forward a couple of weeks ago. That is what triggered the Browns to trade for him, give him $230 million, fully guaranteed all of that. Stephen, what did you think? I thought there were a lot of, like, shocking accounts from the women. and that Jenny talked to. But for me, the most damning thing from this,

from this piece, this New York Times piece, was the transcript from the deposition, I think it was when I think it was Tony Busby was asking Deshawn Watson how much he kind of looked into the therapist's skill set or background or qualifications when looking for new massage therapists. And Deshaun Watson basically repeated that that was never a priority.

And like, that's the whole thing right there. Like Nora said, this is a pattern and that's kind of shows the motivation for this pattern and the motivation wasn't getting a good massage it was getting women into situations where he could take advantage of power dynamics based on his own answers to uh buzzby's questions and and maybe this is a cynical way to look at it but i feel like this this uh this newest report looks worse for the texans than than it does to sean watson like do we knew the extent of the allegations against

Deshaun Watson, the new testimonies were kind of shocking. The new accounts, I should say, are kind of shocking. And I think a lot of people were fixated on those. But the part about the Texan security employee putting the NDA in Deshaun Watson's locker shortly after he was threatened to be exposed

on Instagram by one of these massage therapists, I think that's like the darkest thing from the story. And I'm not one of those naive people that was shocked that the Texans were kind of allowing this to happen or at least aiding Deshaun in some way. And it just makes me think about what else is going on in this league for other players across the league that who may have some things, some demons that haven't been exposed yet.

And it's just a terrible, terrible look for the NFL. And I think it's going to continue to get worse. We don't know what the Texans, knew, right? The two pieces of their involvement were that there's a hotel and athletic club called the Houstonian in Houston where under the name of a trainer they had secured a membership that Watson could go use

and that ended up being a space where a lot of these things allegedly happened and I mean we know the massages took place so they definitely happened there and the other piece was that after he'd spoken with this security guard that they employed his next Secret Service agent

and mentioned that one of these therapists was posting on Instagram about something that had happened with him and threatening to expose him. He comes back to his locker the next day or a couple days later and there's an NDA

that's been slipped into his locker. So they could have not asked exactly what happened and exactly why he needed it, but there's sort of willful ignorance there at the very least, and the very most rises quite a bit further above that. So I would imagine there's probably, at least in sort of the vague ways, the NFL acknowledges these things.

The Texans probably become a slightly bigger part of the league's investigation. Now that these things have come to light, I don't know how much they actually look into. it in earnest, but it seems like that would be one meaningful change. Because to my knowledge, the Texans hadn't been a huge part of what the league was looking at. And just to clarify, that wasn't just Jenny's reporting saying the NDA thing happened. Deshawn Watson confirmed it in his deposition.

Yeah. In his deposition, yes. Yes. Okay. So, Stephen, I agree with you. This is a huge black eye for the league, I would say. And I think that this embarrasses them. And that's in a lot of cases what forces them to act.

I think that the defining thing of Roger Goodell's tenure was the Ray Rice incident and the underpunishment and then the overcorrection. And the fact that Roger Goodell came fairly close to either losing his job or at least getting into some meetings where there were talks about losing his job. I don't think it ever reached a formal stage. In fact, I know it didn't reach a formal stage, but at least there was some media pressure. It was the closest he's ever come to losing his power in the NFL. And I think that that, even eight years later, that still shapes his career and shapes the way he makes decisions.

And I think that this is, well, a completely different type of infraction. I think that it's similar in that. if they levied a suspension next week, based on what they know now, there is every possibility in the world seeing what we've seen over the past couple of months that more stuff would come out afterwards, and he'd have to levy a different type of suspension. And that obviously is what happened with Ray Rice, when videotape evidence emerged and they went from,

I believe it was two games to an indefinite suspension, and basically Ray Rice's career was over. And so I think if you handed down six games last week, this would have been a complete disaster for the league and cadetka. would have been in the same boat. That's why I think that Deshaun Watson doesn't play this year. And I'm leaning towards, when I read a report like this, it might end up being an indefinite suspension.

And we just don't know. You know, obviously, Ben Rothensberger, a decade ago, got six games, bought down to four. Zeke Elliott got six games. And these are the guys who were suspended without a criminal conviction. And so, or charges even, in Rathsperger's case. And so I think that was the template most people were working off of. I think we're working off of a different template now, Nora.

Yes, I think so too. I'm really having a hard time with this one because I just don't, I feel strongly that we were already at the bar. But I take your point that it perhaps feels like less is happening just because they are taking a long time because more and more is coming out. It really, it is nearly impossible for me to look into my mind's eye

and visualize him playing football for the Browns this year or really at any time. But again, they've surprised us before. Yeah, I'd say. Stephen, the Browns have a complete nightmare on their hand that they brought on themselves. and I have no sympathy for the Browns for what they did because they every team

bought what six, seven teams made legitimate offers the moment the grand jury didn't proceed and said, oh, situation over when that was totally cynical, totally stupid, totally reckless for any team, for any team. And this is, you know, one of the things. I mean, Joe person who covers the Panthers are saying, remember, he's not in Charlotte because he didn't pick Charlotte.

It's not that they made some moral moral judgment saying no no no we can't go there nope he didn't pick charlowe okay that's that's why he's not there and so there's a bunch of teams in that bucket yeah exactly 100% some of the teams in his division that that made the call so there's there's there's a problem in cleveland now entirely of their own doing the dead cap charge right now is 230 million dollars next year it's 219 the year after that it's 164. I think generally, the word I used

when they made the initial trade was reckless because you're on the hook now. You're the one who said you do your due diligence. And as, whether you're Andrew Barry,

Jimmy Haslam, whoever, you said you do your due diligence. Kevin's Fancy was asked about the 24th lawsuit the other day and he said, well,

we're going to let the process play out. I'm sorry, you can't do the coach speak, no comment anymore. You can't do it. You cannot say

we're going to let this play out because this is urgent and serious and to the point that that you just can't say, you know, we're just going to, this is a football, not a football matter. That's an off-the-field thing.

We're not going to deal with that. You are dealing with it right now, Stephen. Yeah, I agree with you. I feel nothing for the Browns. If anything, it's just contempt. The way they handled the whole situation from the structure of the contract, I know Browns fans have been quick to point out

that all of their big contracts have small number cap hits in the first year. but none of them are fully guaranteed. So that inherently makes them different from every other contract, the Browns have signed. None of them include protections for the bonuses in the case that gets suspended. So that makes them inherently different

from the rest of the contract sign. So I do think, I think the whole league is complicit in this. Even the owners of the teams that didn't go after Deshaun Watson, I think they would have if they didn't have quarterbacks. And I think just by standing by and letting this bidding war happen

for a guy that had 22 pending civil cases at the time. Now it's 24. I just think it's negligence at best. I don't know. It's just, it's bad. And I really,

I'm losing faith in like the whole system now after reading Jenny's report. Like it's not even just an NFL thing. It's like how did these cases not, how did he not get charges? in the state of Texas. How did they just overlook these charges in two different jurisdictions? It's rough.

If we, my, my expertise is not legal. It's in football. I'm going to stick with the football thing here. How is there a system set up where within 24 hours of, the grand jury now proceeding? He had the most leverage in the history of football.

Nobody, the union players, all of these guys who are three years away from free agency have been begging for leverage for years. And the only person who got it was Deshawn Watson, who got the biggest. guaranteed contract in history. The Browns basically paid $95 million to add one year to his deal. And I think this is, frankly, part of this is a media story because I think that the reaction

to that, and not on this podcast, but on other, I don't, it's not to single anybody out, actually, because it was everybody. But I think that there was this, it was, it was treated as a football story. That bidding war was treated as a football story. I think the Browns probably looked around and said, you know what? There's not going to be a media drumbeat if we make this trade. They weren't expecting the Jenny Berentis report. They weren't expecting some of this, you know, two more lawsuits. I mean, there were some reports yesterday that maybe that they're starting to get

blindsided by some of these new ones and that maybe, maybe some of these are a surprise, you know, in the last couple of weeks. But I think that when you looked at the media temperature after the grand jury did not proceed, I think the Browns probably thought that this would become a football. story pretty quickly, Nora. That's embarrassing. I know. If that's like, that's mortifying

because it shows such a, such an imbalance in how seriously you take the experiences of a famous and extremely talented football player who can help you versus sort of nameless, faceless women that you don't know

and didn't bother to talk to. Right? The Browns we give a lot of props to, generally as a smart and thoughtful organization. And I am with Stephen. If I have only one finger to point here, it's not at any of the teams, but at the NFL for not just making this a situation

that couldn't even come to pass just for putting him on the exempt list, for not putting him on the exempt list and saying, look, we don't really trust you guys to not start a bidding war because you care about winning more than anything else. And you're incentivized to do that in a lot of ways. So we're taking it off the table.

I think that is what should have happened. And after that, I don't excuse it, but there's a part of me that's not surprised by what happened. But even so, because I have more than one finger to point here, Cleveland, who Watson didn't want to go to initially until they upped the price and structured the contract differently so that he would be even more protected, didn't bother to talk to a single person who, a single one of the massage therapists, not one. So you can miss me with due diligence. It's, it's, it's just mortifying.

Like, it's mortifying. And for me, I feel like the Browns can't play dumb with the 23rd and 24th loss that's coming out after the fact. Because if that's the case, then you totally disregarded the nature of these allegations and everything that's been reported. I agree. There's no spreadsheet that says 22 is okay and 23 is too much. Right.

there's two changes I think that have happened in the last 24 hours number one is that generally generally you're you you kind of have your finger on the football internet as I try to do as well

but we get deep in the weeds on some of this stuff it seems to me like there aren't that many Browns fans who are digging in and the ones who are getting kind of roasted by other Browns fans it's like kind of like the same like on Twitter at least it's like the same

handful of accounts that are in like the mentions of every report defending. Right. Right. Right. It seems like there's a bit of of a sea change here in that in that regard. I think fan bases, listen, everybody knows this. There is a percentage

of shitheads in every single fan base who would defend Deshawn Watson if the number was double what it was now of lawsuits, right? That's just the way it goes. That's universal. There are shitheads in every corner of every industry, of every, I mean, especially on the internet.

And if you've been on the internet, a lot of shitheads there, so you can't make a representative of anything, except I think that I'm seeing a lot of rational Brown fans, I would say, and I think that that change has come in the last couple of weeks. The other thing is, Nora, you talked about giving props to the Browns,

how we have, how we have in the past. For good reason, like, I think for very good reason, and I don't necessarily, I am not naive enough to think that the front office by itself was the driving factor in this acquisition. Yeah, but Jimmy Haslam. Jimmy Haslam has always been in the front office.

It's a Scorpion and the Frog thing. Like at some point he was going to be Jimmy Haslin. Okay. Like even if you load up the front office with Andrew Barry and Kevin Stefanski and all these smart people, at some point, you're going to go, oh, Jimmy Haslam's still there. He's been the owner for a decade. And sometimes he makes really, really bad decisions.

What I was going to say was it like, I'm number one. Brown's front office got. Like I wrote a whole damn profile about it. And I honestly don't think you can give them props for a long ass time. We can't sit here and say like, oh, they're so brilliant. They made

one of the most reckless moves in the history of the modern NFL. And now we're seeing it. And we can talk all about risk and risk management and all the things they did and why they had to guarantee it and all that stuff and stuff we talked about in the first podcast. But there are a hell of a lot

of organizations that we don't call geniuses who didn't even attempt to make the most reckless move in the history of modern football. And this is like top five. A lot of those, a lot of those things are just, just BS. Like, they didn't, they did not do due diligence.

No. And if this goes really far south and they try to recoup some of that money, then the way that they would have to do that is by claiming that he lied to them. And that is, I mean, about what? Look, I think they would, they would, they would.

and not 23. Right. And look, if it, if it saved them a dead cap charge in the hundreds of millions, I think they would gladly

take the egg on their face for that if it came to it. But the egg would be there because, come on. Oh, well, we took his word for it and didn't bother to check with anybody else.

Like, that's a tough sell. Anything else on this? Stephen and Nora. I mean, I don't think it would be that outlandish to start having conversations about whether Jimmy hasn't should be forced to self a team, to be honest.

I think it's that bad. And it's on that grand of a scale. I think the story is not going to get any smaller. I think it's going to transcend football if it hasn't already. This is going to be a bad look. And like you said, that's what the NFL cares about is these PR black eyes. This is going to be one of the biggest ones in the history of the league. Someone said this yesterday.

And I actually, a couple people said it. But when it reaches the New York Times Wall Street Journal level, that's when ownership starts carrying. That's when, if it's local papers, if it's even ESPN, if it's CBS, whatever, that's sports world to them.

When it's a bombshell in the paper of record with 9 million subscribers, it's read by most important people in America, that's when it reaches to the level of the NFL feels embarrassed and that they have to act. So I, yeah, it's, it's,

I think that they're going to Gidell is going to default to over punishing instead of underpunishing in my opinion he's not punishing to be Haslin though I don't think that I don't think I don't I don't I mean also then what what does that mean for Arthur Blank

what does that mean right I agree they won't punish Daniel Snyder in any meaningful way that's true Daniel Snyder should have been stripped of his team like a decade ago, and he had a fake suspension for a year where he still showed up to games in a hoodies and sweatpants. That's a good point. So, like, they created a precedent where ownership doesn't get punched.

They're shielded from it. Well, I mean, that precedent is also called, like, employment, right? Like, these are Roger's bosses. Yes, yes. And the owner's, other ownership doesn't want to do it because other ownership, and this is just what I've heard. and this is the Snyder thing. But it's like other ownership knows that that there's probably more shitheads than you think within the other.

And even if you think there's a lot of shitheads within the upper ranks of the NFL, there's probably more. And I just think that they find it to be like, you know, hey, this could be any one of us. So I think that they just don't want to punish owners in any meaningful way. And that's just sort of the way it's going to go. So I actually disagree with you on the on the Jimmy Hasam thing. But this is an unbelievable mess. I don't know what happens from here. I would be shocked if he took a snap this year.

And I don't know what would have to happen from taking a snap in 2020. I don't know how those games are covered when they do eventually happen. I'm assuming he's eventually going to get to play again, whether it's the end of this year or next year. but it's going to be strange. Yeah, well, I mean, so we talked earlier about how the reception to this story has been pretty good in the sense that it doesn't seem like there are a ton of Browns fans that are dug in.

I don't know if it will work, but it does seem like the other thing is that we are realizing that the case that Watson's team is going to start. making, and I would say that so far they've been making it fairly indelicately, at least in public, is that this isn't that weird, like that his behavior was sort of a gray area and quasi, a thing that happens. Because we know the number of massages, the fact that there were accusations, the fact that there was sexual contact, like none of that is disputed. So we're starting to see Rusty Harden start, you know, talking about, well, like, it's not that unusual. And it's a little gross and scary to think about how we're going to find out how effective that is. And yes, in the moment, it seems like a lot of people are responding to this and going,

oh, my God, how could we possibly, like, how could this guy possibly play? How could this? This is totally unacceptable. but I just, I don't want to sound cynical here, but I would caution against assuming that there aren't ways to spin a story where if that happens and somehow he's playing, he's playing well, it was surprising that the initial signing and the bidding war became just a football story so quickly.

I just again, like, I don't, I guess I'm sort of guarding myself against it happening, again by saying I'm just not convinced that it couldn't happen again, unfortunately. And to your point, I feel like a couple of his teammates have already come out and kind of vouched for him personally. Yeah. Just like, oh, he's a great guy. He hasn't done anything to me in the two weeks we've been teammates.

But, and I think that's going to make it easier for him to kind of rehabilitate himself. I don't know. For lack of a better term, if the players in the locker room aren't making a big deal about it. He's going to be insulated from, I mean, there's going to be fans every Sunday, but he's not going to see that every day going to work. And I think it's going to be, make it

easier, make his transition back into the NFL easier. And that's, yeah, I think that's, it's, it's, it's a cynical way to look at it, but I think it's the most realistic outcome. I think it like being good at football is a very good way to rehabilitate your image. But we're not there yet. So, so let's sort of move on here. And we'll just, change tones a little bit here, because this is a different type of news. Denver Broncos was sold on Tuesday night for apparently $4.6 billion,

according to the NFL network, to the Walton Penner family, the Waltons of Walmart fame, a cousin by marriage to Stan Cronky, and I believe by net worth, they make Stan Cronky look like a broke boy. So congratulations to the Walton Pender family. this changes a lot about that franchise which from from what I understand was a bit of a rudderless ship waiting for for ownership and you hear a lot of things about there was just not a lot of direction they were waiting around front office was kind of you know they'd made some changes post John Elway John Owe I think is an advisor there now but the end the end game of Elway being there was was not going well they needed a new owner they needed a direction they needed someone to tell them what to do

do get some fresh blood in there. Melody Hobson is also a part of the ownership group, co-CEO of Ariel Investments. Big F-1 fan, by the way, goes with her husband. George Lucas all the time. Nora, how does this change to Denver Broncos? Well, it's probably, it probably changes them to operate at least somewhat

in the Rams image, right? Like if I had to guess, you take some sort of organizational tendencies and philosophies from what's worked in L.A. So you have new incredibly deep-pocketed ownership and their closest contacts in the league run a team that is known for being hyper-aggressive about acquisitions and just going all out. And we've seen the Broncos behave a little bit like that, just this past off season, obviously, with Russell Wilson. I would be surprised if they don't sort of continue on that path. Stephen, Broncos. I mean, I think at the very least it gives them a fresh outlook.

I think there is a danger when you have sort of these legacy ownerships. Like Pat Bowlin was, I think he may have made the Hall of Fame or he's a candidate every year, it seems. he passed away and then his son took over our family thing. Family thing. It was just Joe Ellis, the team president, was kind of running the show. And then there was a couple of bits of drama, but who would get that? And so it was, there wasn't really a bowl in running anything.

Right. But I feel like there's like, it's easy when you've been a part of an organization that has had past success to kind of rely on that past success and try to take lessons from it that aren't necessarily applicable. And I think having a new own. will help them kind of separate themselves from like the John Elway era, which even beyond his playing career when he became the GM, I think was still kind of hurting the team because it seemed like he was trying to find a quarterback in his image. And that set the team back for years. So I do think that's a good thing. It's so hard to predict like how these owners are going to run the team. But if they do adopt the Rams, some of the Rams philosophies, I think that's better for the

league because the Rams are definitely one of the biggest drivers of news these days. content. This helps Russell Wilson, honestly. Because when that trade went down, I was a little bit worried about where the direction of the franchise is going to go, how long the sale was going to take, because there have been courtroom dramas.

There have been all sorts of things with the Broncos over the past couple of years. It's been a little more dysfunctional than maybe anybody outside of Denver realized. And so this to me helps Russell Wilson, because these guys are going to spend. They're going to understand probably what it takes.

hopefully, you know, listen, they have a good front office already, came from Minnesota, George Payton, like, those guys are smart. So they can kind of tell the Walton-Pinner family what to do, how to do it, they're probably bringing in more football people. So the direction of this franchise with Russell Wilson makes feel a lot better. I don't think it's a 2020 thing. I think it's more of a 2024 thing. But Russell Wilson's career is going to end up better.

I mean, listen, he's coming from Seattle, which also doesn't really have a permanent owner. after the death of Paul Allen Jody Allen owns the team but I guess in the will that they basically have to sell it at some point she has to sell it so there's sort of drama there so he was going from one place without

a clear direction to another and now the place he is at least has has a direction I think this is going to only benefit him the roster is good I think we're looking at at a maybe once again crown jewel franchise of football in two years

I am pretty irrelevant but I guess a sub sub sub takeaway is probably that Stan Cronkey gets at least one in the supportive column for him not having to pay the entire fee for the St. Louis thing. Oh yeah. Or maybe not. I don't know. Maybe like maybe there's tension. Who's to say? He's trying to build numbers. It's like like a survivor situation. That would actually be incredible. That would be incredible. I need somebody to do that reporting. How do we feel about this move for Nathaniel Hackett, my favorite sitcom dad of a coach? So can we break this down real quick? So Nathaniel Hackett, he's extremely, he feels extremely online to me.

Yeah. I don't know. I don't know. Because if he was online, I feel like he would get made fun of a lot more for his, no, like the online of like 2005. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, very like E-BOMS world.

Yeah. Like that, yeah. He knows all the memes from like 2008. He knows all the funniest videos. Well, okay. So I have this theory that everybody who's a head coach in the NFL stopped listening to new music when they became a coordinator, right? So like, if you just look at the year because they stop consuming everything,

they just get too busy once you're a coordinator. If you're a linebacker's coach or a running backs coach, you got time to go see Top Gun or whatever. But when you're a head coach, you don't have that time. And so, like, I shared this theory one time. And then someone shared with me that Kyle Shanahan's son is allegedly named after Little Wayne. And if you track when he became a coordinator, it tracks almost exactly with when he

became a coordinator. Like, he's like, I'm good. Little Wayne is my favorite artist. I don't need to proceed. I'm all set. I don't need to know about Lil Yadi. Okay. Like, we don't, we're all set because I'm,

have become a coordinator. Maybe with Nathaniel Hackett, we're entering a new zone, which is that you stop processing new memes by the time you're a coordinator. No, I think you're dead on. I think you're spot on. Last time we logged on.

The last movie he saw in theaters is like Borat, and he hasn't stopped doing the impression ever since. Wait, so I actually, I've only met Hackett twice. I actually quite like him. And I actually think he's got, I guess, he's got some connection with Russell Wilson, it seems on the front end. Those guys are both relentlessly positive,

to the point that maybe it annoys cynical people like you and I, Stephen. But I do think that this can work. And I think, listen, Nathaniel Hackett was with Rogers for a long time. Remember, he was the coordinator of that Bordell's team that got to the AFC championship game. He's worked miracles.

And I think that sometimes when you deal with a bad quarterback like that, your stock can rise and fall, depending on what that looks like. He was obviously under an offensive head coach in Green Bay. So I don't know. I feel like it's about time for Hackett. I think that he got the job at the right time, and I think this can work.

Are the Broncos going to be good, Nora? Wait, hold on. Can I tell you something else? Yes. So Kyle Shannon's son is named Carter. And I guess this was publicized enough so that Lil Wayne sent him autographed copies of the Carter 3. and or no, sent him and Carter autographed copies of Carter 3.

And he wrote it a note to Kyle Shanahan. Like, I appreciate the honor. I have three boys of my own and only one is named after me, L.O.L. To Carter, he wrote, you were amazing from day one. That's true. Which is an incredible message to write to a baby. You're amazing from day one, Carter. I'll go risky.

What if he turns out to be like a not a great person? Then you're on record. I think Lil Wayne's okay. I think he can move on. I'm sorry. That just made my day, so I needed to share it.

What was the question? Are the Broncos going to be good? Yeah, it'll be good. They'll be good. I don't know if they're going to win the Super Bowl, but I think they will be a good team. Yes. Stephen?

Your feelings about Nathaniel Hackett's press conference aside, fact that he says Tuddy instead of touchdowns aside? No, that's a big deal. I think it matters. But anyway, it's like the biggest deal. It's the only thing that matters. I would say, like, they're going to win nine games.

Nine games, maybe 10, maybe eight. That feels right. That feels right. I'm more in the, like, 10 or 11 camp. I think nine to 10. I'm going to split the difference here. What are we going to say, Stephen? They're going to be the new Seahawks.

Like, they're going to hover around 10 wins every year, one and done in the playoffs. I think Russ took the Seahawks' weirdness within the tent. Well, I mean, I agree, but I think the Seahawks' weirdness was rooted in the fact that they just played a brand of football that made Russell have to bail them out in the fourth quarter. That's why there was weirdness. I did a whole, I actually reported a bit on this. And it's basically that their entire system was set up on Russell Wilson making plays with four minutes to go. And keeping the game close before that for 52 minutes. 56 minutes. And so I think that if they just have a different mindset, and I think Hackett does

from Pete Carroll, I don't know if they'll be that same weirdest. But they had multiple offensive coordinators and it always reverted back to the same thing. And there's one common denominator. And it's the weirdest quarterback in the NFL in terms of play style. Well, what about Pete Carroll is also weird? I don't think he's weird. I think he's a normal NFL head coach. No, I mean, yes, beyond the football team. I say that I love Pete Carroll. But Russell Wilson is a quarterback that thrives in chaotic situations. So it makes sense that the Seahawks leaned into the chaos. And I think the Broncos are not going to have a choice but to do that.

They tried to hire a McVeigh coach last year. And by the day, I mean the Seahawks. And it just turned out being the same offense that Russell Wilson always runs. I think it's going to happen again in Denver. And they're going to be another weird team. Danny Kelly was trying to tell me about. Russell Wilson climbed to see over his center. Right.

Sorry, that was me. Danny Kelly kept trying to tell me about layups last year in this Shane Waldron offense. I didn't see any of them. No. It was a bunch of logo threes. All right. Last thing before we get out of here,

Aaron Donald signs a new contract, which from what I understand, talking to the cap guys and listen to some of the cap people, experts out there, it's unprecedented to really, I mean, there are a couple of different ways, that you can restructure a contract.

This is pretty new. Essentially, they did not add any years. They gave them a $40 million raise over the last three years. It was existing contract. The reworked deal brings a total value of Donald's contract to $95 million over three years. This sort of dovetails or ends, the retirement rumors that had started before the Super Bowl, frankly, whether or not those were real or was just a bargaining chip. It's immaterial now.

But this is well-deserved. John McVeigh had said this was moving in the right direction a couple weeks ago. It was. I don't see any problem with giving a ton of money to the anchor of your defense and one of the best players in the industry of football, Stephen. No, I think this is a good thing. And I think this is the Rams furthering the strategy of becoming like the most player friendly team in the league. Like it seems like there had become a destination spot for disgruntled players. And they pay their players.

They take care of them. And I think other players around the league see this. They see Aaron Donald just getting a raise just for the hell of it. I know he kind of threatened retirement. But like you said, he's getting a $40 million raise. And like it's not really helping the Rams too much in the short term. I think it's a smart move. And I do think that's one of the fair criticisms of like the salary cap,

analytics people who will question a deal for like a superstar player if he plays at a position that isn't necessary. valuable. I do think moves like this, even if they aren't the most true, like from a financial standpoint, I think they do matter and they do help the team in the long run. I also think there's a difference between

like interior defensive linemen and interior defensive lineman who's also Aaron Donald and also plays for the Rams who run a defense that absolutely needs that. And when that need is not only being met, but being exceeded by like maybe the best pure player at any like regardless of position in the NFL. It's kind of like I don't know if we should be quibbling about positional value in this case.

No. No, like you can't go wrong paying superstars no matter what position they pay. You can't go wrong. Did we see Cam Hayward's comment about how people need to stop saying it's just Aaron Donald? We did. We did see them. The confidence on that guy. Yeah, I actually kind of respect it.

I kind of respect it, too. I feel like when we're talking about three-point shooters, we have to, when we talk about Steph Curry, we have to mention Stephen Ruiz, too. We have to mention a lot of people haven't seen my pickup games. But if you saw, I'm just like Steph Curry. Oh, brother. Listen, KMA O'R deserves be paid too. I don't think this is going to move the market as much as some people have said,

okay, maybe the non-quarterback market because he's the highest paid non-quarterback of all time. Maybe this move something. I think this is a, this is a, about being the best player in football. Like, yes, you can get paid as much as a quarterback. If you're the best player in football. The best defensive player in the history of the league. I'm willing to say that now.

Uh-oh. Bill Belichick can get really mad at you about Lawrence Taylor. Yeah. Yeah, he is. But Bill Belichick has these, like, weird affinities for, like, weird players. I know Lawrence Taylor does not fall into that category. Lawrence Taylor's weird. Oh, my God.

No, I said, I know LT doesn't fall into that category. But if you ask, don't know ball. If you ask him about like Dave Megget, he'll like tell you like he was the greatest running back of the 90s or something. Well, that's sad. Belichick's probably in Annapolis right now doing some lacrosse thing. And he's just driving down right now just to beat you up. Just drive in the short. Bill Belichick come on the ring around a show to fight Stephen about Lawrence Taylor being weird.

Would you rather fight a Bill Belichick in your car every day or fight Mike Crable with a sword once a year? This was a bit of a The fight takes place inside a car You didn't see the chicken meme? No The prompt No, we missed that Oh, sorry

What is it? Would you rather fight a chicken in your car every day? Every time you start your car You have to fight a chicken Or would you rather fight an orangutan With a sword once a year? Chicken

Right, the answer is the chicken And the answer is Bill Belichick too Did you see the video of the people that are getting, getting grabbed by an orangutan yesterday and you wouldn't let him go? That was outrageous. A lot of people... He was so focused. The orangutan was so focused.

A lot of people pointed to that as proof that the orangutan with the sword is the wrong answer. It's the chick. So the orangutan also has the sword. Yeah, I think. I don't know. Let me stop right there. Let me stop right there.

I don't think an orangutan really knows how to use a sword. I'd rather. fight an orangutan with a sword than without a sword. I don't think that the orangutan with the sword I'm not doing hand-to-hand combat with an orangutan. I think something in its hands, I think something in its hands might actually help you because it doesn't really know

what it's doing. It probably would recognize that the sword is in some ways similar to a stick, but like I don't think it's going to have the concept of slicing. Can we replace Cooper Cup with like an orangutan expert who can answer these questions for

us? I, and we can ask Cooper Cove. And then we have to ask the orangutang expert Solax question. Yeah. I don't think that that's, I think that the orangutan thing, like that video, that guy was not even like, he was just

trying to get away. I think if he just given him a little push or something, it could have gone better. That guy was just yelling and just letting his, also, what kind of shirt doesn't rip when an orangutan starts pulling on it from 10 feet away? Is it a good I know. Must have been some sort of, like, athletic.

So are you questioning? You're basically saying orangutans don't know ball here. No, no, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that I'm built different than that guy. orangutan is what Kevin's saying. The orangutan is no ball. I'm talking about, I'm flipping it. I'm saying the guy didn't know how to get away from an orangutan.

I'm not saying I would defeat an orangutan. I'm saying I'd do better than that guy. You basically said I would simply have pushed it away. Like that was going to. I would have just at least I would have delivered a little bit of offense is what I'm saying. That guy didn't.

I'm not like you know the old thing about how like if you're being chased by a bear you don't have to outrun the bear you have to outrun the other guy. Like that guy was getting rocked and I would have simply gotten I would have been better than that guy. That's all I'm saying. That's the only thing that gets you better than that spot. This been the ring around a thought show on the podcast.

Now we thank you to Stefanii Fusufi. I have surf and bucking up with additional productions provision by our Juno. Ram Capul. We will see you on Friday. Thank you.