The Ringer NFL Show - A Thriller in Foxborough and What We Know After Week 6 | The Ringer NFL Show (Ep. 322)

Episode Date: October 15, 2018

The Ringer’s Robert Mays and Kevin Clark link up to break down the exhilarating Chiefs-Patriots game, discuss Bill Belichick’s game plan against Mahomes, and anoint the best team in the AFC (1:45). Then the guys offer their “Stock Up” and “Stock Down” teams of the week (11:45), throw their challenge flags, and predict tomorrow’s headlines (49:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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as always by Kevin Clark. Kevin, how you doing, bud? I'm definitely in a situation I've never been in. Yeah, some interesting stuff going on with you right now. I tweeted a photo or it was a Blake Bordell's joke about Connor McGregor, about how he was the second best quarterback in Dallas on Sunday. And he screen grabbed it. I don't think he necessarily got the joke.

He's not a big American football fan, I don't blame him for this, but he thought it was a shot at him, and he was like, you guys are ruthless. And now he kept the name out of it, but obviously he could figure it out. And so now I've got a lot of McGregor fans coming after me. My question is, what are they coming after you for? I don't know. I'm getting a lot of, so his, one of his big phrases is,

who the, who the fuk is this guy? Yes. And they're just, a lot of them getting a lot of instant DMs about that. That's kind of funny. though. If that's what they're saying, then I think that's funny. I think it's just an amazing experience. I'm not, I'm not, I'm not upset about it at all. This is a wonderful time. What a nice little wrinkle for your Sunday night. Irish trolls. Yeah, absolutely. So a wrinkle we can both share is that we both watched the Sunday night football game, which just ended. And,

oh boy, was it fun. I think we expected it to be. And it did not disappoint whatsoever. No, it was a classic. It's exactly what we thought was going to happen. It was amazing how long it to build up there because there were points there where it looked like this was going to be a pretty typical Sunday night shalacking with with the Patriots. You know, sometimes there's just a hype machine that goes in and I lose by three touchdowns. This was not that. But Patrick Mahomes showed us, I think, everything we wanted to see from him at this point in his career.

Weirdly, it's the games I, it's the type of game I thought we'd see from the Chiefs all season. Okay. Yeah. Coming in a year, we talked about how, man, you know, this Chief's team, their offense could just be a juggernaut. It might not matter. And that's kind of how I felt tonight. It's like, man, their offense is still so fun.

They were trying to kick for a touchdown. They put up points in all these ways. And then, well, no, they gave up 40 some and that's all that matters. They're not going to be able to do this every week. And I know that they showed well. And you shouldn't have less Chiefs enthusiasm right now than you did at the beginning of the day. But I also feel like there were little tiny elements of what New England did in that game that aren't necessarily the formula to beat the Chiefs.

I mean, they still scored 40 points. But it's like, okay, maybe this is how you should attack them. Maybe this is what will give you a chance. And the two things I took away from it were one, they just beat the shit out of Kelsey the whole night. Yeah. I mean, just being as physical as possible with him and really making it hard for him to get releases clean,

hard to get out the line, hard to get into his routes quickly. I mean, Hightower was everywhere doing that. And just the ability to run it straight down their throats. You know, the Patriots have a good offensive line. It's not the greatest run blocking offensive line. Sonya Michelle is a good player. I don't think he's Todd Gurley. But they showed the fact that if you take it to this Kansas City team,

they just have no chance of stopping you if you're a decent running game. Yeah. So it's interesting to me. The Patriots were the second team to score 30 points. The other team being the Pittsburgh's DeWry's both 37 and week two. And I honestly, I know that this defense, as you said, we expected to be a tire fire. Before the season, we asked aloud if Kansas City could win the Super Bowl.

and we both, I don't remember what we said exactly, but I know we both kind of ripped the defense. And we just said this is going to be a disaster. And I think at this point in the season, if you've only given up 30 points to Tom Brady and Ben Rolfsberger and Antonio Brown, I think that's a pretty good solid footing to go for the rest season to get better. I do think that they have the pieces once Eric Barry gets back, that there'll be a much better defense.

So I'm expecting a little bit of improvement. And the defense has exceeded my expectations through this, this, you know, five-week stretch to start the season, the sixth game was pretty much par for the course for an Eric Berryless defense. Yeah, absolutely. And we'll see what happens. Is it enough against pretty much everyone except a New England on the road? And would they have to go to New England on the road in the AFC championship game if they keep playing the way they've been playing? Maybe not.

So, I mean, the formula is not exactly what we've seen from contenders in the past. But I'm not quite willing after one game to say it can't work long term. I don't know if anything is normal in 2018. I mean, that's the kind of overarching thing with all of these storylines is that I just don't necessarily know if the formula to be a winning team three years ago, four years ago, even last year is the same as it is now. I don't think defense is the same thing. We've just seen maybe the best defense in the NFL is the Bears.

Okay, well, they got shredded by Aaron Rogers over a half. Maybe it's the Jacksonville Jaguars. Well, they got shredded by the dolphins today. Yeah, well, right, as I'm saying. And, you know, and so that's, you know, everybody has black marks on their resume. The best defense might be the Jacksonville Jaguars. Well, they just made Scott Lanahan look like Sean McVeigh. Okay.

The best defense, you know what I mean? You can just go down the line and everybody has a massive, massive hole in their defense at this point. And I just sort of feel like if there's good, as we've talked about many times, Lincoln Riley saw the Super Bowl, saw a big 12 game. What he means by that is that there. there's no defense. And I think if there's going to be any year where defense almost doesn't matter and you can get lucky by, you know, by basically having defensive lapses at the right moments, it's going to be

2018. I think that's fair. I also feel like things are going to tighten up a little bit as we get later into the year. Maybe I'm wrong about that. Well, I just feel like when we get to the playoffs. I think units will learn to play together better and there'll be more chemistry and they will just be a little bit more cohesive. Guys will return to health or get unhealthy.

I mean, things, everything will change by December, just by the nature of what happens each week in football. Yeah, that's fair. I also feel like, you know, we came into this week, and I know you said this on Thursday's show, and I tended to agree with you that the Patriots wouldn't necessarily show much. They wouldn't come in and say, all right, this is how we're going to go after you. And they kind of did the opposite. They had that very specific, team-specific approach that we've seen from them in huge games. I mean, the idea to say, all right, I'm going to get and hammer you with Sony, Michelle.

We're going to just go after him. We're going to show you what we're going to do to Kelsey. I wasn't sure they were going to actually do stuff like that. And it felt like, all right, they really wanted this game, and they wanted to do everything they could to win it, and they showed you what you have to do to beat the Chiefs. I don't know if anyone or I don't know how many teams actually have that game in them to do it. And I guess that's my question.

I mean, if the Patriots are the only team that has this gear in the ASC that can deal with this team, if we get to the ASE championship game and it's in Arrowhead, is it going to matter that the Patriots have that gear? Yeah, I mean, that's the interesting thing because you think about it from all the angles. Well, maybe Belichick doesn't want to show anything, okay? That was sort of my theory coming into the game.

Well, he did show a lot, as you said, but maybe it's because he wanted to see Mahomes stretch to the boundary to see what was possible with him. You know, I mean, there's, to put yourself, I'm not smart enough to put myself in Bill Belichick's hoodie, as it were, and say, I'm going to do this. Maybe he had completely different plans than he has in the past. So I don't, I'm not necessarily surprised.

He didn't go the way that I thought he was going to go. But I was intrigued to see it. They forced him into some bad throws. He was missing throws early. I don't know if that was nerves. I don't know what it was. He had that really, really bad interception. I mean, Hightower, he didn't, I just watched the press conference.

I don't know if you did as well, but he just said, I didn't see him. And, you know, that's, that those are the kind of classic Patriots interceptions that they force to linebackers. And so I just feel like it was an interesting learning experience for Belichick, if nothing else. Aside from the fact they probably got home field tonight. All right. You're picking right now. Who's the best team in the AFC? This is easy for me because I've told you I'm not picking against the Patriots until they do something other than make the Super Bowl every year.

So it's the Patriots. Yeah. I don't know, man. It's hard. I don't have an answer. to put you in that spot because I didn't feel good about who I'd have to pick. I have no idea. I think that was a fun game where we learned more than I thought we might coming into it.

That's what I was said. That was awesome. Yeah. I know that's a real cheap way out, but that's kind of how I feel right now. Dave, but two quarterbacks had 109 pass rating. Yeah, it's fun as hell. I mean, I know that that happens now every week in like every single Tampa Bay Atlanta game, but this was this was a earned one.

It was an earned one. And the fact that they gave it to Michelle as often as they did. Yeah, I mean, 24 carries 106 yards. And it's not as if they were trying to salt the game away. You know, they had that lead early, but in the second half, it was back and forth. And they were still willing to ride him when they needed to. And I felt that was so telling. Again, they clearly saw that as the crux of their game plan and they stuck by it.

And if these two teams play again, I wouldn't be surprised to see them to go back to it. You'd figure, well, they showed that already. Maybe let's try to do something else. We've seen this Patriots team. before when they know or when they just have an inkling of how to beat a team, they'll hit it over and over and over again. Think about how they used to beat those Colts teams. They used to run the ball 45 times.

Yeah. I mean, that's all they did. They said, this is how we're going to do it. We know we can beat you this way. And until you show us, you can stop it, we're going to keep doing it. So I desperately want these two teams to play again. I think they might. I mean, in my opinion, watching, I feel like this is the time where things start to

turn a little bit. You know, through four weeks, things can be deceiving. You know, we talked about this the other day. You know, think about where we were through four weeks last year. Now it's week six. And it feels like the teams that are good are going to start showing up. I actually looked at the power rankings for week seven earlier today. Just to see what conventional wisdom was like.

Again, I keep doing this because I'm obsessed with the new cycle. But it was still at this time last year, no one was still sold on the ramps. We were still saying, well, the Seahawks are the class of the division. And I'm wondering now, it's not, it's certainly not the Rams because I, excuse me, the Rams or the Chiefs or the Patriots, because they're on a tier all their own. Do you think right now there's another team we're not thinking of that's maybe four and two hovering around there that we're going to be thinking about as elite in a month? I think the team that might have been there could have been Cincinnati.

Yeah. And then they did not play well today, obviously. I feel like the team that is probably a contender and we're just coming around to that idea this week and they'll solidify it over the next couple is the Chargers. I knew you were going to say that. I mean, is that wrong?

I feel like that's the only team in that tier that I'd be scared of. If they get Joey Bosa back and he's Joey Bosa, it's a real conversation. Exactly. We're going to get to that. We're going to get to that here on the Ringar NFL show. We will get to the Chargers.

We'll get to a bunch of teams. Let's start right now with stock up and stock down. Let's go. First stock up of the night. Dallas Cowboys offense, man. I mean, the Dallas Cowboys in general, I feel like coming into this game, I was afraid of what Bortals would do on the road

against the defense, getting David Irving and Randy Gregory back into form. You know, those two guys kind of coming around. They're playing well without Sean Lee because Leighton Vanderas is just good, I mean, which is fun. I mean, the only play he really, I showed up in a bad way today.

He got beat by D.D. Westberg down the right side line on a play he shouldn't have been asked to make you guys. the wide receiver, and he still almost got to him. I mean, this is a group with athleticism in the middle with Van deresh and Smith, a lot of talent in the front four and a secondary that can play. This is the most talented defense that they've had there in the Rod Marinelli kind of Jason Garrett-era, and I don't even think it's even close.

And you combine that with an offense that showed a lot more than I figured they could against the Jags defense. I mean, they really leaned on Cole Beasley in a way they probably should have been doing the entire season. I mean, he torched AJ Boye in this game. So did you see the Dan Rolovsky video about beating the cover three? So I favored it or I liked it on Twitter, but I did not watch it yet. I was in my, it's in my cue.

Yeah. And so basically it was just that there was a Beasley pass over the middle where they really effectively beat the cover three. And a lot of the discussion around it was basically that there was really no excuse for the defense. I'm actually seeing a replay of it right now in Sports Center, that exact pass. but there was really no excuse for it. And I'm starting, you know, we talk about the innovation cycle all the time, all the time. And I think that it speeds up even more than it sped up last year.

And plays and coverages can be outdated. It used to take five years. Now it can take a couple of weeks. And so at this, I have full confidence in the ability for the Jacksonville and Jaguars to have to have an elite defense. They did for the first three weeks of the season, four weeks maybe. They are probably the most talented defense in the NFL.

Their defensive line is incredible. Their cornerback speak for themselves. But if those sort of plays, if Scott Linnehan is finding those sort of holes in the defense, I just wonder a little bit about what they need to fix. I totally agree. I think that's fair. But no one was harder on Linnehan.

and Garrett and me early in the season. And I was impressed by just their ability to say, we know what our best bet is in the passing game. We're going to go to it over and over again. Because they weren't doing that before. They just were not saying, we know how we need to move the ball through the air. They only had 183 yards,

but they still moved it efficiently enough against a really good past defense. I mean, the Jags had an off night, but this past defense is still very good. And I was just, I love seeing that. It's like, we know where we can beat you and we're going to hit it. Colby's at 11 targets.

No one else in the team had more than five. Allen Hurons, just probably shot into the sun. Five targets, no receptions. I mean, it's like, stop throwing the ball. Just throw it to Beasley every single time. That's your move here. You have nobody else on your team that's an above average receiver at this point. Yeah, no, it's actually kind of fun.

Remember I joked about how they were kind of the guy pointing at the head meme, where it's how do you beat the team with two shutdown corners? You just don't have any receivers. Yeah, there you go. That's kind of what they did. Like they had Cole Beasley over the middle. Actually, Cole Beasley, you know, was match up with Boyer points. I mean, it wasn't like, you know, he was matchup.

Boya was going in the slot a lot to cover him, which I feel like that's part of the issue here. And we talk about this all the time where you have these elite elite units. And when you have to start paying everybody, it starts to fall away in small kind of increments that you don't really notice. And last year, they would not have moved Boya to the slot like that because guess what? They had Aaron Colvin and they were fine with it. But that clearly is that they had had just hypothetically, if they had boy, and Ramsey on two just complete non-factors. And then they had Aaron Colvin on Colby'sley,

and Colbyisley was winning those matchups. Do you think that they would change anything? I mean, the point of having elite cornerbacks is to move them around, right? I disagree. The slot is a different animal. I think the point of having elite cornerbacks is to have them in the spots where they're comfortable because it doesn't hurt the integrity of your defense in other places.

I think when you start moving guys around, you get in trouble. When you're a defense that's that talented, and especially just that blanket coverage, element that they had last season and you're the one dictating the action, that's how you define a great defense. I think when you're moving a guy around like that, it's not good. I love when you have guys play their positions.

You can flip the corners on the outside, but moving into the slot is extremely hard. I mean, when you're AJ Boy, you spend most of your time, you know, covering DeAndre Hopkins and then you got to go play a guy like Cole Beasley, that's no knock on AJ Boy if he can't do that. Very few corners in the NFL can do that. Yeah, no, I get that. I'm just saying, you know, it's just one of those things where I don't know. It literally is, I was joking about it, but it literally is the way to get around the Jaguars,

which is just have no previous reliance on your outside receivers. Yeah. I mean, that was clearly the move. And then the running game was excellent today. We've known the Jags defense has had problems stopping the run in the past. Sure. And they were just all over the place, you know, run fits, being in the right gaps, all that stuff in this game. We're just a mess.

You know, DAC on keepers, which seems like it's a really strong weapon for the Cowboys when they're using it well. So I was impressed. I mean, that's a complete win and it's a complete just disaster for the Jags. I mean, they fell apart in a game that not say they needed to win, but

if they don't stop and turn this thing around, that division's going to get away from them. Houston tried to give away a game against the bills today. Everyone's trying. But the Texans are around. You know, I watch, I got to watch so much that game. It was just in a spot where I just kept kind of glancing up there.

It's amazing to me that that's a functioning NFL offense. And they almost weren't today. They were barely a functioning NFL offense. But just the degree to which Deshaun Watson's getting his ass kicked every single week and somehow making enough plays, I mean, I just don't know how sustainable that is. But watching that, it's like, God, there's just so much talent. I just wish this was functional. And if it even gets a little bit toward that, then that team is going to be.

around. And if you're the Jags, you keep screwed around like this, then you're in trouble. I mean, you have, they're in that division. You have the Colts and then you have another team who we're not talking about. We're not talking about that team. We're not talking about that team. That team lost the Ravens today, which they're like, we'll get, they're like Conner McGregor. They're just, they're just cutting out the name. So let's talk about the Ravens. The Ravens sacked a team from the AFC 11 times today. That team is just completely D.O.A with our offense. after watching them a couple weeks ago, I'm so surprised that this is what they look like.

I mean, they look so good against the Eagles. And then the Ravens come out and do this to them after that awful egg they laid last week. I mean, we're talking about the Jags. We're talking about the Bears. Are the Ravens really the best defense in the NFL? Yeah, you know, it's interesting because I brought this up earlier today. And I said, you know, if the Jaguars keep getting pasted,

like they have the last two weeks and everyone keeps saying, oh, well, they're the best defense. the Cowboys pace the best defense. The Chiefs put up over 20 points on the best defense. Well, at some point

they stop being the best defense. That's how this works. And when you start to look around the NFL, and it's kind of like what we talked about earlier in the show, every defense has kind of a very strange, an inconsistent resume. And then look at the Baltimore Ravens. They're a team,

I think they led the NFL in turnovers last year, pretty consistent throughout. I love their coaching with Martindale, a huge upgrade over Dean Peas when it was made. I totally disagree with that. I think DMP is a very good defensive coach. Well, I think for the Ravens, it was an upgrade. That's fine.

I mean, I think their unit was awesome last year. I mean, they were a top three unit a year ago. I think this defense is just very good and has been very good for a couple years. Sure. So they sack Marcus Maraud out 11 times who plays for the team we're not talking about anymore because they're just too boring. That was the last, do you know the last time someone was sacked 11 times? No.

I don't even know how it's possible. Well, it happened because I'm about to tell you how it was possible. The Chargers did it to a quarterback in 2012. That quarterback was Greg McElroy. For the Jets? Yeah. Wow. Okay. So anyway, Maceroy, Maceroy 11 sacks, the Ravens.

Break them down for me, Robert. They seem pretty good. Their defense is excellent. I mean, the interior is amazing. The exterior, the edge rushers have always been kind of, well, this year had been the question. Sog just kind of past it. But Zedarius Smith is an excellent. excellent game.

Suggs is a heart today, man. Yeah, but for most of the season, that's been what's holding me back about this team in terms of the defense. I think that's a really good unit, but I'm like, are the ed rushers really that scary? Can they get a pass rush when they need it? It certainly seems like they can.

I love the secondary. And I think the offense, additions, they made it receiver. It's like, yeah, all right. Like, Michael Crabtree, John Brown, like, is this really going to make a huge difference? It's made enough of a difference. Yeah.

You know, those guys are a huge. upgrade over what they had a year ago. If John Brown can stay healthy, he gives them an element. Crabtree was really good today. And Flacco's been fine. And that's better than what they've had in recent years. A flacco that's fine with that defense is a scary proposition in the AFC. Full stop.

Hey, I have a question for you. So Shannon Sharp said that all of the quarterbacks that Jalen Ramsey ripped in his GQ article would improve the Jaguar's Super Bowl hopes up to 75. percent. Where do you put Joe Flacco on that list? If you put Flacco on the Jaguars, what happens? They'd be better. But how much better? They would win the AFC soft easily.

Okay. Would they win a playoff game? Not if they're a defense player that they did today. Yeah. Well, I mean, I guess they can't. If you give up that many points to the damn cowboys, you're not going to win many games, no matter who your quarterback is.

Unless it's Patrick Mahomes, who they could have drafted. Yeah, I mean, I understand all that, but that's very in the past. They were not moving on from Bortles last year. No, I know. I think the move was not having any sort of competition for this year. I understand giving him the extension. I understand making your win.

I wrote about this last week in the starting 11. I understand extending your window a little bit, but when you're using that $9 million, you freed up to, when you gave Bortals the extension and you got $9 million more in Capspace. And then he gave fucking Dante Moncrief. that nine million dollars. Yeah. It's just,

I understand the thought process going into it, but they did not do the right things around that choice. Yeah, it's really come back to get them. And why not bring in someone? Bring in someone as competition.

Why can't you be the team that gives Teddy Bridgewater $5 million? Wait, I have a question. I have a question. Would Ryan Fitzpatrick make them better? If he, if he'd done a full OTAs and training camp with them,

would they have been better off? Probably. I think that one's close. I don't know. It's hard to say. I mean, that Buck's situation at the beginning of the season was such a weird set of circumstances. I mean, I really like that offense.

It seemed like they knew exactly what they were doing. I like Todd Mocken a lot better than I like whatever the Jags are doing offensively. It's interesting hypothetical, but instead they got Bortles. Yes, they do. And they get portals about every other week. So that's a fun life to live, especially when your defense is getting torched by Cole Beasley. I like the Ravens.

We're due for another surprisingly, feisty Ravens Patriots playoff game. Oh, man. I'm going to be terrified of that. Do you know what's interesting? Warren Sharp tweeted this out a little bit ago. I think it was when the Chiefs were struggling a little bit. But, you know, when Belichick has 10 days to prepare for a team like the Chiefs,

that's going to be the tape everybody studies. And so the Ravens do play the Chiefs later this year. And I'm really intrigued to see that. I'm really intrigued to see how teams build. off of what Belichick does because say what you will. And we'll find out if it's Mahomes nerves that was the reason he was missing those throws or Belichick was forcing them into tighter windows or whatever. That obviously dissipated as the game went on.

I mean, some of those guys in the second half were wide open. It'll be really interesting to see Mahomes against six, seven, eight weeks of tape because at this point, I've joked about this, but at this point, the only thing they've gotten on tape is just him making every throw and knowing how to make every decision. And so I really don't know what flaw. you find, but DCs are a hell of a lot smarter than I. And so it'll be a little interesting to see a team like the Ravens with a lot of tape on Mahomes as the season goes along.

I totally agree. I think it's, again, the one of the things I mentioned, I think that being physical with them and really kind of trying to knock off that timing and affecting his play in the pocket because he was so good from the pocket early in the season. It's like, all right, let's make sure they don't have these easy options early in the down because if they have that, they're just going to destroy us. All right. He's able to make plays outside and out of structure and doing stuff on his own.

But I feel like if you kind of put them into that without a secondary choice, without the ability to play on time and in the pocket and the way they want to, then you're hamstringing them even if he can play that way. So there was a Scott Katzmar tweet that was unbelievable. Since 2013, the Patriots have allowed more than 40 points four times. Okay. Three of them are Andy Reid. That's amazing. What's the fourth? I have no idea.

Doug Peterson. That's really interesting, actually. Yeah, that's really interesting. I mean, obviously, obviously it's 41 again in the Super Bowl. But so let's move on. Let's get to our third stock up. And we mentioned them early in the show, the Los Angeles Chargers, man. Yeah, baby.

I don't, it was easy to kind of get off that train early in the season. You know, they lose those two games. And then we realized that the two games they lost to maybe to two of the best three teams in the league. and the way that Philip Rivers is playing right now, man. Holy shit. I mean, he made back-to-back throws, and I understand that there was a false start on one of them. I understand.

Everyone brought that up, but I put it out the throw. It's like, it's not about the false start, man. It's just really not. I mean, he was only 11 of 20 today, but that 11 for 20 went for 207 and two touchdowns. Yeah, it was very impressive performance. You know, I saw some buzz. I think you know, Jeremiah said it first.

And I haven't heard it from you and you're my only offensive line guru. How big of a pickup pouncey's been? They needed that. Because it was really under the radar when it happened. I mean, that was one of my all like, it's mid-June and I forgot the pouncy was on. You know what I'm saying? Like it was one of those signings that just was not, you know, there are certain offensive line signings that do resonate with the larger world.

And this was not one of them. I liked it just because the charger center has been like the spinal. tap drummer over the last five years. I mean, they just have not had any stability at that position. And it's not as if they stayed healthy this year. You know, this is a team that I think ideally would have had Forrest Lamp at one guard and then Joe Bark still at right tackle. They still have Michael Schofield playing that right guard spot and they have a backup

right tackle in. I don't even know his name. I mean, it's just one of those things where it's not as if, oh, this is the year where the Chargers offensive line stayed healthy. That wasn't the case. But I feel like having that solidifying factor in Pouncey's been here. huge because their run game today was unbelievably good. I mean, they were just dominating people.

Melvin Gordon, I'll tell you what, man, that Melvin Gordon Todd Gurley first round, in the moment, we were like, I don't know, you know, running back's the first round, everything else. All those guys do is score two touchdowns a game and crush people. Yeah, Melvin Gordon is the kind of guy who, if the Chargers had a fan base, would get a lot more hype. I saw some of his next-gen stats. I mean, he's like a, it's a damn painting.

I mean, like, have you seen his run charts? I mean, he's just going everywhere on the field. And they throw him the ball all the time. It's a beautiful thing. I mean, it reminds me a little bit of like, I know this is a strange person to bring into this, but it reminds me of Mike Leach a little bit, okay? Did you see the rant on balance Mike Leach had recently?

No. He was basically just like, there is no such thing as 50-50 run-pass balance because, you know, you have five receivers and you're balancing those five guys with one guy in the backfield, right? And the true balance is just using every part of the field,

using every person you have, and just figuring out, you know, how to actually get actual balance in your lineup instead of just using one guy, then five guys, then one guy, then five guys. And when I look at the Melvin Gordon charts here, it's like, you know what? That's balance.

It's finding just different things for Melvin Gordon to do and then using Philip Rivers and then using your tools there. I mean, that's why I've been impressed a lot with the Chargers offenses. They've just found a way to be a well-rounded offense. It's so fascinating to me because you go back to think about what Gordon was when Danny Woodhead was there, for example. Yeah. And so he, that 2016 season, which I believe was Woodheds last year there before Woodhead went to Baltimore last year.

So Gordon started 11 games. He played 13 games. In 13 games during that season, Melvin Gordon had 57 targets. Through five games this year, through six games this year, he has 42. He's on pace for almost 120 targets. What happened when Woodhead went down was they didn't say, okay, we need a guy to fill the Woodhead role. Echler is a change of pace guy they get work to, but it's not as if Echler is the passing downback.

They just let Melvin Gordon be Danny Woodhead too. And that's a huge deal for them because it makes you unpredictable. And he's shown that he can make the most of those plays. I mean, he's averaging 9.3 yards per catch. He's averaging 52 receiving yards a game. I mean, that'd be good for a receiver. That's 800 yards on the season. The dude has been such a weapon for them.

And when Rivers is playing like this and they get some help from the defense, their defense has been so disappointing this season. Desmond King was awesome today. He had two picks. That's one of those guys where, you know, when they had Jason Brett get hurt, it's like, all right, it's okay. Their secondary was great last year. And then they fall off without any explanation.

And if those guys can get back into form and Bose is coming back eventually, that's when that team gets scary. I think they could be really fun down the stretch. Hey, speaking of past catching running backs, do you know what David Johnson is doing? I'm not sure. I haven't seen David Johnson in a while. I just saw him running into the line for one yard at a time for that terrible Cardinals offense.

That's only mildly interesting to me because Josh Rosen makes like three cool throws a game. The last two games, David Johnson has four. four receptions for 31 yards. They don't have target numbers on ESPN, but on Pro Football Reference says he got three targets last year. Sorry, last week. The Cardinal season is pretty much over at this point. Can we just make it a, I don't even play fantasy, season-long fantasy.

Can we just make it a David Johnson gets stats here? Coming into the year, I was so unenthused about that coaching hire and just what that staff would bring to that Cardinals team. and nothing I have seen. It gives me any reason to think that I was wrong. I mean, what an uninspiring team that is. I mean, Rosen made a couple of throws today that I'm like,

wow, this kid is going to be really good. He had one play action throwed on the left sideline to Christian Kirk where I was like, okay, I'm into this. But he's not good now. They're not good now.

And they're just not a fun team to watch. They're just so boring. And they do not give the ball to their best players. I know Larry Fitzgerald's hurt, but I just don't understand how when you have David Johnson, this game was not out of hand. I mean, it got out of hand late, but it was a reasonable game for most of it.

I mean, until they started to turn the ball over and the Vikings getting back-to-back touchdowns, they were in it, I just don't understand how David Johnson doesn't touch the ball 30 times in this game. When you consider the rest of the scope position players this team has. That's why I brought it up.

It's very strange. All right, before we move on, let's take a quick break. Today's show is brought to you by FanDuel. Football season is underway and I already have major regrets about my season long fantasy teams. I'm sure most of you fantasy players feel the same way. You spend all offseason researching and getting excited for the draft. Then comes the pain. That's why I'm so excited to be playing on FanDuel all season. Over at FanDul, you can get the excitement of researching and building your team each week regardless of the outcome. Plus,

fan duel has never been more fun or easy to play. I've been playing in their gridiron pickum contest every week. It's a free contest where all you need to do is pick winners, no spreads, then 10,000 is split amongst the top pickers. From my perspective, the two best fantasy players in the world live in my town right now, Melvin Gordon and Todd Gurley, and you can't go wrong riding either of those guys in a fan duel lineup right now. Trust me, if you're not a fantasy expert, then fan duel is clearly the place to play. Plus, new users are getting a $5 bonus where they make the first deposit. So come play with me at fanduil.com slash the ringer.

That's fandul.com slash the ringer. Now back to the show. We've done this a lot, but I'm not sure where else you can start with Stockdown, except for John Gruden and the Oakland Raiders. I mean, their quarterback was openly crying on the field today, correct? Yeah. It was clearly hurt. It came out before the game that they're listening to trade offers for Amari Cooper.

And Carl Joseph. Carl Joseph doesn't even play for them. So, how are those Carl Joseph trade offers coming in? The boys down in Oakland are working in shifts to feel all those Carl Joseph trade offers. The phone's ringing off the hook. Yeah. You get a second cell phone. Gruden is trying to eradicate the Reggie McKenzie era in the same way that Howie Roseman

tried to eradicate the Chip Kelly era when he took over. the differences that Reggie McKenzie still works for the Raiders. Yeah. I just, this entire situation is just so bizarre. Like, what are they doing?

I guess you're rebuilding, but I don't know. I really don't. If you were rebuilding, why in God's name would you go out and sign a guy like Jordy Nelson? If this was the plan, I just,

there's nothing cohesive about what the Raiders have been for the last six months. And that was my concern. I mean, if you're trying to build a franchise. My concern was hiring a guy who hadn't called a play in 10 years after the sport of re-mentioned. Or has never been a personnel guy. And you're giving him the team.

It is an unmitigated disaster. Now, it is horrendous. Robert, did you see the stat about his average completed air yard today, Derrick Carr? Oh, I don't think any past one past five yards. No, his average was 0.1.1. one area arts. Oh my God. His passing chart.

I saw the chart. I saw the chart. It's hilarious. I actually recommend everybody looks up the passing chart. It is like it should be on the dark web. Like I shouldn't be able to look it up. You should have to hide your IP address.

Yeah, you should have to get that. I just read that book on the Silk Road, right? And they just had everybody has all those like crazy browsers that like hide your identity from the feds or whatever. You should have to. Look on that in order to access Derek Carr's passing chart. Is that the worst contract in the NFL?

Well, it's the worst contract in the context of what they had, what were the reaction to it was, which is not paying Kallel Mack and being stuck on offense. And now it seemed like John Gruden hated Derek Carr from week one. And that can only be getting worse. Do you know what his dead cap number is that they cut him this offseason? It's probably like $45 million. $7.5 million.

Get up, well, get them out. Holy shit. What are they going to do exactly? Would you be surprised whatsoever if they cut him? So you signed five years, $125, $12 million signing bonus, $70 million guaranteed. Cap at the last, this year is $25 million. Last year is $15. Next year it's 22 with dead cap at 7.

The year after that is 21 dead cap at 5. So why not just move on next year if you're going to move on? I agree. Why pay the $22.5 million? Well, so there's a couple of thoughts here. Number one is, are you going to enter? First of all, we can never, ever, ever discount John Gruden trying to sign a 38-year-old quarterback.

Absolutely not. Whoever it is. That's the rebuilding plan. It's right. It's Patrick, by the way. Whoever is going to try to find Jeff Garcia. There's all sorts of people out there. Okay, let's not, everything's on the table as far as that goes.

But the one thing I will say is there gets to be an optics problem at some point. We get rid of Colomac, you get rid of Derek Carr, you trade your superstar Carl Joseph, and, you know, Marri Cooper's in the block or whatever. You know, you are trying to sell sweets and stuff in Las Vegas. But wouldn't you sell sweets better? The damn hockey team, the damn hockey team made the Stanley Cup finals in the first year. but wouldn't it be easier to, if you're going to be this for the next couple of years

and you're clearly rebuilding, wouldn't it be easier to sell sweets in Las Vegas if you give Justin Herbert a number one Oakland Raiders jersey? Yeah, but are they, I mean, maybe. This team is one and five. There would be considerably more excitement,

in my opinion, from a fan base. If you get the number one overall pick of the number two overall pick or whatever, and you just go full scale rebuild, you cut car this off, season and you get a quarterback in the top five. First of all, first of all, you think Justin Herbert sucks because he's too tall. Don't ruin that.

We're going to talk about that on Thursday's show. Second of all, the Raiders are one in five. Or it's Drew Locke or it's Will Greer or it's whoever. But so are the Colts, so are the Giants, so are the Cardinals. But if you sell off your players right now and you purposefully get terrible and you go one in 15 and you have the number one overall pick. I feel like that is the better way to drum up excitement. Sure.

But I just need to tell you, I'm not totally confident what John Gruden is going to do with a bunch of draft picks. Oh, neither am I. I mean, he honestly might trade like a high first for someone who doesn't matter. I would be so curious as to what they do. I did not realize the dead money was that low. They absolutely could move on from him.

And I just cannot believe it is, now it's October 15th because it's midnight. here. It is October 15th, 2018. Derek Carr signed that contract two years ago. After 2016. June 22nd, 2017. It's been 17 months. 16 months. It's been 16 months since he signed that contract. And I'm sitting here right now believing in my bones that they're going to cut him this

off season. So, yeah, I can't get a read on it. I just don't know. All right. Let's move on. We have to. We can talk about this forever. I'm sure the haters will come up again over the course of the season.

Very quickly, stock down. We just shouldn't talk about teams on the show anymore. We literally let off the Thursday show with like 10 straight minutes of fawning Panthers talk. And then they go out and they just cannot score against the rest of kids. There's just so much variance right now week to week. Everybody is so. Here's the problem.

Here's the problem, Robert. is that if we wanted, if we wanted to come out and say the Rams and the chiefs are really good and the Patriots are probably going to be really good and everybody else sucks, that would probably be the most accurate thing, right? Like that's the most accurate read on the situation last week.

But instead we tried to celebrate a handful of teams. We were probably right on the Chargers. We were not right on the Carolina Pandas. And we're just going to get that for the next three or four weeks, because we don't know who's good. Because of the way the modern NFL is set up with lack of practice time, no team has an identity right now

except probably those three teams we named as good. And so we went on a limb and we said, you know what? We liked the Carolina Panthers. Carolina Panthers played like crap. Here's what I'm thinking about the Panthers, and it's kind of what I'm thinking about the Bears too.

I mean, I feel like the Bears have problems, but this is one of those games where if the Panthers almost came back to win this game, the Bears almost beat the Dolphins. neither of those teams deserve to win those games just based on the game flow. When you turn the ball over three times, including two lost fumbles,

you're probably going to lose. And the fact that they were even in this game is a miracle. So I feel like that's kind of what happens. You go on the road, road games in the NFL when you turn the ball over, you almost never win. And it seemed like that's what happened. They could not run the ball well.

McCaffrey, I mean, Maccalfrey was eight for 20. They just could not get anything going. And then when they started to throw it, they got some juice later in the game. But it just feels like this. this game has slipped away from them. And that's going to happen every once in a while.

It's just more about the result right after we talked about this team. It's like, man, this is just, damn it. Come on, guys. Just a little bit of sustained success. That's all I'm asking. It seemed like the Chargers offense and like the Browns defense. The Chargers slaughtered a team that was second in DVA coming into this game. I mean, it's amazing just how few teams there are that have sustained defensive success anymore.

But it feels like the Chargers, the Chiefs, and the Rams have sustained offense success, it doesn't matter who they're playing against. Did you, I'm probably going to write this. So if anybody is listening and it plans on reading me, don't listen to the next 10 seconds. Did you, or just forget about it? Did you read the

DVOA wrap up that football outsiders did last year? No, I don't think I ever did. It was that, essentially, for all of football outsider's history, offense has been more consistent than defense. Oh, you know, they've written that for years. That was kind of the

the way the cults were built. Right, right, right, right. It wasn't true last year. And it was really, the exact opposite was true last year. And that was really the first time that it wasn't true. And I found that fascinating. I'm looking into reasons why, maybe why that is. And I actually think it was a one-year aberration because...

I totally agree. I absolutely think it's a one-year aberration. Eight of the 12 teams from last year carrying over into this year, especially this week. And I think what it was was just like one of the, turning is in the innovation cycle. And like you have the Andy Reeds and the Shaw McVease and, you know, all a couple of those teams who were just working their way up and they're not going to leave for a number of years.

And I found it just very fascinating that that happened because I think there was just sort of a big leap in football last year. And I don't think it's necessarily going to change. I think the teams that are really good at offense right now are going to stay there. I agree with you. I mean, that's kind of what's talking about our last doctor. down and it's about the bears. And I, that's why I'm scared about letting games like this slip away.

I feel like when you catch lightning in a bottle with a defense, you really have to ride it and you have to hope that the offense plays well enough for you to just get where you want to go. The Jags might have had their Super Bowl window be one year long and it's now over. That might be the case. And I don't think the Bears going to the Super Bowl necessarily. And, you know, the quarterback has shown a decent amount of flashes, but you have to use defenses like this because they usually just aren't this good from year to year.

And the Bears game was really done. disappointing. I mean, you can make all the Brock Osweiler jokes you want. Brock Osweiler threw for 380 yards. 274 of those yards came after the catch. 274. I mean, it was just a maddening game. I mean, you're just this team for the first five weeks, one of the hallmarks of who they'd been was an ability to tackle on the back end. Eddie Jackson, Bryce Calhann, Kyle Fuller, just a ton of physicality from the secondary players.

and that was gone today. Nowhere to be found. Terrible angles. And when you're letting Albert Wilson just take the ball 75 yards and score on a two-yard pass, that has nothing to do with quarterback play. I mean, you're just,

that's, you're falling apart in that regard. The pass rush was not where it had been in weeks past because Clemack was clearly hurt. I mean, he tweaks his ankle. He goes into the tent at the beginning of the game. He was not the same. They started to fall apart as a result of that. Horrendous tackling.

Enough mistakes by the offense. When you turn the ball over twice inside the five on the road, you're not going to win. And they still had chances to win. It was a disheartening game, but I feel like this game, if we're talking about aberrations, I'm not completely deflated based on this one game.

It was just a frustrating game to watch. Did it, I guess here's one of my questions, watching that game. So like you said, Columac goes into the tent and things fall apart from there. Did it change your opinion either way, knowing I understand that he was on sort of a pitch count in the first,

the beginning of the season, especially against Green Bay. But did it change your mind as far as how valuable he is to this team and how bad it could be if he ever had to miss time? Oh, they'd be in trouble. Okay. I thought they were in a little deeper than that. Just from the outside.

I think that he really unlocks everything. I mean, that's really the move. It's, and, but God, the safety's been playing so well. And the fact that Jackson and Amos just looked absolutely lost. Yeah, that was my surprise, too. It was like, what is happening? It just, again, you go on the road. It's 104 degrees with the humidity and the heat index in Miami.

These games happen in the NFL, but coming out of the buy, they're just disappointing. It's one of those things. You just hope that you're going to be able to overcome it. And the fact that they even had a chance to me because the offense was playing well. I mean, they were really moving the ball down the field. And then Cohen fumbles at midfield when you can probably win the game. I mean, just so many things happen in that game. it's like, God, I cannot believe they let this one slip away,

even if they deserve to lose based on how often they turn the ball over. Yeah. No, they're still very much in the mix. You know, Matt gets, my worry is, my biggest concern right now is they had the buy last week, and this ankle thing lingers with Mac. If he's just 75% of himself for the next six weeks because he doesn't have time to rest, that could be a game changer. Hey, I'm sorry, I don't want to keep going back to this,

but I just Googled Derek Carr. Jason Lock and Fora on Sunday, on Sunday, morning reported that many GMs around the league think that Carr is going to get traded, like after the season? Yeah. I mean, that's, I understand that because if you're a team without a quarterback, which not that many teams don't have a quarterback, I guess that's the issue. I feel like a 22.5 million in this quarterback contract era,

when you only have seven and a half million or five million in dead money, if you take them on and cut them after the 2018 season, that's a risk someone's going to. talk themselves into. You think so? I think you can find a Derek Carr type player in a lot of different corners of the world. I think that's true. I feel like we see this all the time where the opinions of certain players don't keep pace with who those players actually are based on whatever crushes people had. I mean, the Jags just signed Eric Flowers. I mean, your draft pedigree who you've been at certain points of your career, even if it was never in the NFL, follow guys to a certain

degree. And I could just see somebody, what if it's the Giants to be the funniest shit in the history of the world? To trade for Derek Carr. Yeah. Cut E.I. So you can have Derek Carr. One of the, um, one of the sort of negative things here for car is it's been sort of a mess in Oakland the past few years. And so like, if you played for New England and he sucked, they, there would just be some like defensive coordinator who would just try to trade for him, who'd get another job. But no one's really gotten a job from Oakland. there's no like Raiders diaspora anywhere right now. No, that's true.

And again, there's just so few spots without a solid quarterback situation that I feel like any quarterback trade market this year would be so much cooler than it would have been a year ago. Right. Like Adam Gaye signs Brock Osweiler

because he played with him in Denver. Yeah. Otherwise, we wouldn't have had the miracle of a Brock Osweiler win in 2018. I mean, the only connection really would be that Oakland,

Bill Musgrave is now in Denver. But that staff may not be there next year anyway. I don't think that's going to be happening. I don't think so either. They have Derek Carr. He's called Case Keenum. Two quick challenge flags here before we get out of here. My first one is I just want to go back to the Bears for two seconds.

I cannot stand when teams play for 50 plus yard field goals. And to run that ball to be sitting there at the 37 yard line and just run the ball three times, I don't mind running on third down because I feel like you throw an incompletion there on third down and don't get those two more yards. That's a problem. I mind running on second and four when you can just the game is there. You run a play action pass

on second and four, the game is there. I understand they have ball security issues the entire game. I understand you probably don't trust your quarterback, but it's just one of those things

where it's a couple times this year where Matt Nagy has kind of tightened up when the game is on the line in moments where he did not trust the quarterback or trust their ability to hold onto the ball and that's what loses you games. And he's very aggressive

in other areas of the field and other areas of the game at other times of the game. And then when they get to the end, they tighten up again because I feel like it's a lack of confidence of what the quarterback can do. And they deserve to lose that game. I totally am fine with it.

It just drives me nuts when teams do that. It's not a smart way to play at the end of the game. Play at the end of the game like how you play the whole game. Just play and just do what you did to get in that position. Don't tighten up. Don't freeze up and say, well, you know, this is a 52-yarder. He can make a 52-yarder.

It's so hard to make 53-yard field goals. It's so hard. Robert. Don't ask them to. Robert. You got a nice dog. Got a nice apartment. Got a nice situation.

We're going to be okay. It's going to be totally fine. I took Molly to the dog park today afterward. It was she had a great time. Are you transitioning into a Bill Simmons as a dog walk? I think that's exactly right. A dog walk after every big loss. And you know what?

I tweeted this today and I really believe it. It sucks to feel that way. And it sucks to have as a 31-year-old man with like a life. have, feel like your day was ruined by a football team. Yeah. But I actually kind of missed it. I just didn't care. I watched every bear's game every year for my entire life.

But last year or the year before, you just never had any sense of this is worth giving a shit about. And now it is. And I miss that feeling. It sucks in my soul today was awful for that three, three hour stretch and for a couple hours after. But I'm sitting there thinking, you know what? It's okay to hurt this.

bad. I missed caring about my football team like this. I am excited to play the Patriots next week. I don't know how it's going to go, but I know I'm ready to watch it and I'm going to get up that morning being like, all right, let's fucking do this. And that is a fun feeling that I have not had for a long time. So you have the Patriots,

but then you go Jets, Bill's Lions. Oh, this is still very much doable, my friend. Remember we were talking about that second wild card spot in the NFC and we're just pestling in the Vikings because you're like, oh, well, if the Bears win the division, that second wild card spot in the NFC is there the taking. I have every bit of

faith that this team can actually win 10 games still and make something happen. You're going to go on the road every once in a while and it's going to go bad in the NFL, especially when you turn the ball over. Don't think that I'm anti-bearers. I think they can win 10 games very easily. I'm just saying Jets, Bill's, Lyons, a nice little run. Absolutely. You need to come out of that run

win in a lot of games. So, all right, we have one more. Yeah, let's set this up. So I did not know that the, and it is my job. I take it very, very seriously, I don't need to be flipping here. I did not know the bucks and the Falcons were playing until after I sell the final score. So the only reason

I knew is because it had huge fantasy implications. I mean, that over under on that game, I feel like was, oh yeah, I forgot about that. I think it was 59.5. And I said I would take the over at 70, and I was only kind of joking. If you took over 59 and a half,

guess what happened? You won. Vegas has had real problems with the over under this year. Yeah, because teams can't stop anybody. Yeah. We can't set it high enough. The final play was amazing, though. I don't know why we picked this as a challenge flag.

I think we just wanted to talk about it. No, no, no. It's because you got really angry at the final play. No, I don't mind the final play. It was kind of bizarre in the sense that it's been two straight weeks of teams almost losing or losing because guy didn't get out of bounds. You got really worked up about this. This is what I was upset about.

So the final play, I'm sorry. I forgot what I was mad about. I got so wrapped up in the bears. Craig, keep this in. This is fine. We can keep it in. I got so wrapped up with the bear's anger that I forgot why I was mad at the bucks. So the bucks are trying to tie to try to try to go win this game.

Mike Evans catches a ball on the right side line. And instead of just ducking out of bounds, stopping the clock with like 39 seconds left, when they had a time out, I believe. And like absolutely could have driven down and scored a touchdown from where they were. He spins back inside. They don't spike it. They run up, run another play, and then they spike the ball after getting another completion. At that point, you have one play left, and they ran the craziest play I've ever seen at the end of a game.

It was a designed play where James Winston was supposed to run, throw it back to Adam Humphreys, who was supposed to throw it back to Mike Evans, who was supposed to throw it to Deshawn Jackson on the sideline. James ran too far. The throw to Humphreys was mistimed, but they still managed to do all the laterals, and the ball bounced and like went between Deshaun Jackson's legs. He had poor like grounding a grounder fielding posture. And if he would have caught it or would have been a cleaner bounce, he probably could have scored a touchdown.

It was nuts. It sounds nuts. It was nuts. It was really fun. I mean, it was just a shit show of a game, but I enjoyed watching it. It was one of those things where I don't mind those games where two defenses can't stop each other, especially when you feel like they were coming.

So, all right, very quickly, let's get to this week's headlines. I think two things that are going to kind of crop up over the rest of the week. One, you know, three things. One, this is when the Todd Gurley MVP buzz starts. It's exciting. Mahomes loss, Gurley 200 yards, a couple more scores, you know, slow day for golf. I think that this is when Todd Gurley MVP becomes a real conversation. The Chargers creeping up as contenders and just the,

Patriots and the Chiefs and kind of the lingering storylines from that. Anything else you want to add? No, I mean, I think this is probably going to be a lot of very empty storylines about Patrick Mahomes responding to adversity. I'll tell you how he's going to respond to adversity by just mauling teams for the rest of the year. Yeah.

I mean, you cannot come away from that game feeling less excited about the Chiefs. I just feel like it's not as if the Patriots kind of rained on the parade. It's at the Patriots show that it doesn't matter how good you are. It doesn't matter if you're the story of the season. We are not going away. I mean, that's what I took from this. That's probably what I'll write tomorrow morning.

That was my takeaway from a very exciting, very fun game. Yeah, I mean, the Patriots and the Chiefs are probably going to play in the FC championship game. Having said that, because it's the NFL, we're going to get Bengals Patriots. We'll talk about the Bengals Steelers game a little bit later in the week, I'm sure. Can't get to everything every week and had a lot of bears. A lot of Raiders and Cardinals talk, the talk of the league. That's exactly right.

All right, guys, as always, thank you so much for listening to the Ringer NFL show on the Ringer Podcast Network. We'll be back on Thursday. Today's show is brought to you by Fandul. I'm so excited to be playing on Fanduel this football season because over at Fandul, you get all the excitement of researching and building your team each week, regardless of the outcome. Plus, they have tons of ways to play. Like the Gridiron Pickham contest, where you pick winners, no spreads, then 10,000 is split amongst the top pickers. Trust me, if you're not a fantasy expert, then Fandul is clearly that. the place to play. And new users get a $5 bonus where they make the first deposit. So come play with

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