The Ringer NFL Show - Aaron Rodgers's COVID Situation, Odell's Future in Cleveland, and More From a Busy NFL News Week

Episode Date: November 4, 2021

Nora and Mal start by talking about the news that Aaron Rodgers will be out this week after testing positive for COVID-19 (3:05). Next, they discuss Odell Beckham Jr.’s unknown future in Cleveland after back-to-back days of being excused from practice (27:27). They also touch on the Saints' quarterback situation with Jameis Winston out for the season and how the Cardinals should handle Kyler Murray’s injury (42:21). Hosts: Nora Princiotti and Mallory Rubin Production Assistant: Isaiah Blakely Additional Production Supervision: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, I'm Mallory Rubin. And I'm Van Laithen. Check out the Ringerverse podcast from The Ringer for all things, superhero movies, nerd culture, and fandom entertainment. We have instant reviews and fun takes on all the latest news and more, available now on Spotify. Hello, and welcome to the Thursday edition of the Ringer NFL show. I'm Nora Pinciotti, here as always with Mallory Rubin. Hi, Mallory.

Nora. Hello. Hello. All right. All right. Let's just cut to the chase here. We are going to unpack a bananas week of news in the NFL. I think you can always gauge what type of week it's been by the types of experts I'm being

offered up in my inbox to comment on various situations at hand. And I opened my email half an hour ago or so. And I saw that there was a disinfection expert available to speak to me about various protocols and ideal forms of cleaning surfaces. And I just thought it's been a weird week. It's been a weird week. A lot of news. A lot of news in the NFL this week.

And look, we are going to talk about Aaron Rogers, who has tested positive for COVID-19 and has been revealed as having been secretly unvaccinated. There's a lot to unpack there. Certainly we're going to talk about O'Dell Beckham Jr., who might be. done with the Browns. We are going to talk about the Saints and what they'll do now with both James Winston and Michael Thomas out for the rest of the year. And we're going to get to Kyler Murray,

who could miss up to three weeks, but maybe a lot less with an ankle injury. That's according to Jake Glazer. I will say that is not even the full breadth of major NFL news stories that have come up this week. Some of them have been addressed on other pods on this feed. So I would have highly recommend that anybody who's listening here also listen to the Wednesday show with Jason Goff, Ryan Chazier, and James Jones. They talked a little bit about the Rogers stuff. They talked a little bit about the St. stuff.

They also had what I thought was a really, really sort of on tone discussion about Henry Ruggs's release from the Raiders under really, really tragic circumstances. There was a lot of information in that that was interesting to hear from the players' perspective, just about what the NFL makes available. to them in terms of resources to stay out of the type of trouble that rugs in, obviously, to prevent such horrible circumstances that they're not dealing with. We also did a trade deadline pod on Tuesday. That was Kevin Clark, myself, and Stephen Ruiz.

We talked a little bit there, especially about what the Titans will do without Derek Henry. I was kind of surprised to see them not make a move other than signing Adrian Peterson there. and we had an interesting discussion about what their offense will look like going forward. But we are going to spend a lot of this pod, I think, talking about Aaron Rogers. And I will say it is Thursday afternoon, morning, West Coast time. All of this feels as though it is subject to change. So I will ask everyone to bear with us if there is breaking news either while we are recording this pod or between when we record it and release it out into the world.

But what we know right now with Rogers is that he will not play this Sunday against the Chiefs. Jordan Love will start. He has tested positive for COVID and was revealed both through multiple reports, but also through the specific protocol that he was put into after testing positive that he is not vaccinated. Right. Rogers had told reporters in August that he was, quote, immunized after he'd been asked. if he'd been vaccinated. And it turns out that he received a homeopathic treatment from a personal doctor,

petitioned to the NFL and the NFLPA, and their jointly appointed immunologist and disease specialist to consider that treatment akin to being vaccinated. That was denied. There is a provision under the league's COVID policy that allows a player to be considered vaccinated if they have received one shot of an approved COVID vaccine and if they take an antibody test and are found to have high enough levels of antibodies. But you have to have taken one shot, which Rogers hasn't. I'm being sort of purposefully detailed about this because it is a confusing story.

I think there's some less so misinformation out there. there than just a lack of understanding of the details of the protocols. Yeah. That's among media players. And I think as we're finding out through this, teams. Right. Because Rogers clearly violated some of the league's COVID policies and we can talk about what's going to happen as a result of that.

But through the discussion of that, there have been a lot of sort of varying impressions from people who have been watching different teams deal with. this stuff all season over what exactly those policies are. And they're all written down. It's a 96-page policy. It's right there online for anybody who wants to read it. It has been disseminated to every team in the NFL. But clearly, it's been sort of either misunderstood, willfully misunderstood to varying degrees. And I think not only are we going to be dealing with what this means for Rogers and the Packers, but also is there a little bit of a reckoning right now over,

are we taking these protocols seriously enough? Is everybody acting in the same way league-wide, which right now the answer to that seems to be no. Right. Yeah. You know, this is a really dismaying story and situation. I think that the point about the confusion surrounding the protocols is a really good one,

because I think undoubtedly some of that surface in this case because of the lack of compliance and how what everybody has witnessed Aaron Rogers doing all season with the Packers, you know, not wearing a mask indoors, not wearing a mask at his press conference, etc., compounds what our understanding collectively or our misunderstanding collectively is of any given protocol.

I think it would be helpful, Nora, you have been covering the NFL's evolving COVID protocol since the very beginning, you know, since last season. And as you noted, it's vast and complex. There are numerous details, you know, far too many to run through right now. But at the top level, I think it would be really helpful for listeners if we ran through some of the top line protocols for unvaccinated players. What unvaccinated players are mandated to comply with under current NFL COVID protocol

because I think that will clarify how we understand the Rogers story as it is unfolding and how we have to now reassess the prior weeks of the season so far in the preseason as well. Yeah. Okay. So let's just do that. And I want to reiterate, as a banner to all of this. Rogers has been considered unvaccinated and has known that he has been considered unvaccinated according to the NFL. The Packers have known that he has been considered unvaccinated

since the start of the season. So there's no gray area in this as far as what the league and the Players Association and their disease specialists made clear to Rogers to the team. Right. That understanding has only become public as of this week. but the team in the league knew that. The team in the league and the player,

he might hold personal views that what he did with his personal doctor somehow protects him. There's no scientific evidence for that, and there's certainly no acknowledgement of that from the league. So everybody knew that they were operating under these policies. So some of the sort of headline major differences for unvaccinated players, one, a major one,

is that they are supposed to wear masks indoors at all times. This is the most obvious policy that Rogers has violated because he has been holding indoor press conferences without a mask on. Now, it's sort of worth noting here that there are some other unvaccinated quarterbacks who have done this.

Kirk Cousins has done this, not a quarterback, but Cole Beasley has done this. In those cases, a key distinction is that anyone who's also in the room knows that they're with an unvaccinated person. Yes. I don't know what difference that makes in terms of whether or not those players are getting fined. Under the protocols, they should be getting assessed about a $15,000 fine every time they're indoors without a mask on.

But again, with cousins and Beasley, everybody knows they're unvaccinated. So on some level, there's a difference in how the people who are around them can assess their own level of risk. There are quarterbacks who people know to be unvaccinated. vaccinated like Carson Wentz who do not do this, who every time they speak indoors or do anything indoors, they are always wearing a mask. The Packers notably have had other unvaccinated players behave very differently. So Alan Lazard is unvaccinated. All of his media availability take place on Zoom.

That's another element of this is either is Rogers because he's a star getting different treatment. is Rogers because there was this lack of clarity on his vaccination status, was that leading to different treatment in order to maintain that illusion? We don't know the answers to those things right now. But that is the clearest protocol violation that Rogers and the Packers have committed here. There are some others. For instance, when he was inactive in the preseason,

he was not wearing a mask while in street clothes on the sideline. Now, that would be a clear violation of a rule for an inactive. player during the regular season. There's a little bit of gray area here because technically there aren't inactive designations during the preseason the way that there are during the regular season. That said, the protocol that existed for the preseason made a distinction for active players. So it kind of seems like by the letter of the law, they're creating two categories, but there is a little bit of gray area there.

There's some other things. there are pretty significant differences in terms of how unvaccinated players can act when they're away from practice. So an unvaccinated player, first of all, when they travel to games, they're supposed to travel separately. We don't know if Rogers has been doing that, although we also don't know if he hasn't. When they are away from the facility, they're not supposed to be with more than three total other members of the team. there was a Halloween party that took place over the weekend that a lot of Packers attended

unmasked. There's a video of Rogers with a few other teammates. If you count the person filming the video, it is over three members of the Packers organization. Again, there's a little bit of gray area

there. To be very clear, though, his indoor unmasked press conferences are a clear violation of the league's COVID protocols. There's absolutely no gray area there. Right. So thank you for that, immensely helpful. The NFL is looking into this.

Seems likely that some sort of punishment will stem from this, presumably for the Packers, for not implementing the policy in addition to, as you noted, whatever fines might be unfolding for. Rogers certainly going to be curious to track all of the statements that stem from this moving forward, what Rogers has to say, what the Packers say, you know, Matt LaFleur held media availability. Yesterday we're recording this Thursday morning, as you noted. So he spoke on Wednesday.

You know, what will the team offer up moving forward and what will the legal ultimately say? I think that, you know, again, this is a, this. This is a really, like, upsetting and dismaying situation. Obviously, with COVID, the first concern is always people's health and safety. Hope everyone is going to be healthy and okay moving forward. I think that the mask mandate violation is, it's an interesting place to start here because, as you noted, you draw the distinction between other situations where players who are known to be unvaccinated are also in violation of that protocol.

We can see that that is happening. And the people who are around them, who are around them understand that. The misleading nature of everything that has unfolded here in Green Bay is something that we, like, have to talk about for a minute. As you noted earlier, like Aaron Rogers and his personal view on his, personal status is frankly not relevant and not germane. Vaccinations are a public health imperative. And Aaron Rogers knows what he's doing when he answers a direct question about his vaccination status by saying, yeah, I've been immunized. That led to the collective around him

believing that he had been vaccinated, a belief that was then reimbunized. A belief that was then reinforced by the absence of a mask, right, among everything else. People who are around him, now again, the team, I think we've been clear, knows what his vaccination status is, media, etc., have been engaging with him without having a clear understanding of the terms at play. That's not acceptable. Why are the Packers, I mean, why is Rogers doing this in the first place, of course? Why are the Packers allowing that violation of protocol to unfold? What is the explanation going to be for the lack of compliance?

And, you know, as you already noted, there are not really any good answers for that. And I'm, as I said, fascinated to see what the attempt at an explanation is, but I don't know that there is one. It's really hard for me to see how you could explain this away when you're actively endangering other people around you without their consent or knowledge. It's a really horrible thing. I do think you're right to draw the distinction between what is just a deeply crappy thing to do to people. that should make them think worse of you going forward and what is something that the league can step in and punish. The league has not said a lot about what they're going to do here, if anything, but when the NFL did release a statement about, you know,

confirming that they were looking into the matter and sort of framing the terms of their engagement with it, they placed the Packers in the center of that. the first, you know, this is from Brian McCarthy, who's a spokesman for the NFL. He said, quote, the primary responsibility for enforcement of the COVID protocols within club facilities rests with each club. So there's a little bit of a distinction there, right? Because I think it's really, really reasonable and correct to say, man, I might not have

before, but I think Aaron Rogers is a major jerk now for being selfish enough to put, first of all the impression that he had a different vaccination status than he did, and also just to enforce his own beliefs on other people's safety, that looks really bad for Aaron Rogers. I'm not sure, and I really mean I'm not sure, if there's anything the league can do about that. Because it was the Packers job under the COVID protocols to send someone in to say, Aaron, put a mask on. Now, he could have, Aaron can have been getting fined $15,000

bucks a pop for these things. It's very possible that that has been happening. And that is the schedule of punishment laid out in the COVID protocols for a player who doesn't do this right. But the responsibility to make sure the house is in order rests with the team. So that

I think is what we're going to eventually have to find out about. And clearly these protocols have not been followed to a T around the league. That may be in part because look, the vaccination rate in the NFL is 94%. If this country could get to that, we would be in a much better place, right?

They have not had massive, you know, double digit players unavailable, like what happened at times last year. They've mostly been okay so far through this. And that's largely because they have a very, very high vaccination rate as a league. But it's possible. that Green Bay sort of turns into an example here of,

well, that doesn't matter. You still, you can't get lax about the protocols. We have punishments for this. That exists for a reason. We will see what happens there. The actual punishment that can take place from the NFL probably is directed more towards the Packers than it is to Rogers. I think what Rogers has to deal with is just what is his place as a superstar in football

going forward? after he's been revealed to be deeply selfish, I think. It's an interesting thing for a player who I think has gotten a lot of sort of positive feedback for being not selfish, but being willing to sort of admit his own self-interest in contract stuff, in wanting to be a part of that organization. and that stuff that I think generally gets applauded because teams and the NFL, we know they always put themselves first.

So sometimes it's what's sort of sad, but interesting about this is that that willingness to put himself first, I think has sometimes seemed like a positive characteristic with Rogers. But if it goes this far, it's really disappointing. Yeah. And, you know, look, again,

you cited the vaccination percentage north of 94%. Aaron Rogers is not the only unvaccinated player in the NFL. He is not the only unvaccinated player on his own team. He is not the only unvaccinated high-profile quarterback in the league. I find myself getting very hung up and I think a lot of people are having this same reaction on the language choice and the misleading nature of it. And again, just the conduct that has been on display every week, which has fostered and then cultivated a false understanding of reality. You know, we've already mentioned the quote about being immunized. He said that he doesn't and won't judge players who are unvaccinated.

We don't need to parse like every aspect of syntax and semantics and the nature of human communication. But I think it is fair to say that the mass read of a comment like that is that he is talking about people other than himself. And so again, the things that he has been saying have really spurred in an understanding that is not correct. or an accurate reflection of reality and amid a public health crisis that is not responsible or fair. I think it's factually accurate to say that he lied.

The most generous read would be that he deliberately misled people. And I do think that that is the central distinction between what happened here and someone like Kurt Cousins or Cole Beasley. look, I can disagree with the decision to not be vaccinated. But if you're honest about it, other people can still make their own choices about how they want to interact with you. And that is clearly Rogers' sort of central failing here is putting whatever his aims were with this, whether it's proving a point about the type of snot medicine, but the type of treatment that he received. or not wanting to take criticism or not wanting to have to follow the rules, putting that above the ability of those around him to make informed choices about their own health.

Like, that is the failing here. It's not just being unvaccinated. It's not primarily being unvaccinated. It's lying about it. So the other cost to the Packers, obviously, is that they will certainly be without Rogers at least this Sunday against the Chiefs. Jordan Love is going to start. He is five of seven for 68 yards in his entire career.

He is almost completely an unknown quantity. I guess his saving grace is expected to be that he gets to make this start against the Chief's defense. We will have to see if there are other COVID absences that come up because of this. Their third string quarterback, Kurt Benkirt, also went on the COVID list, was also at the Halloween party. I've got to imagine that that's a source of some tension and worry within that organization right now. Overall, though, the Packers will probably have some key players back that they've been missing lately.

They could get Devante Adams back. They definitely will have Lazard back. They could get David Bactiari, who's been practicing for the last couple of weeks back as well. So the good news for Jordan Love is that he's going to be quarterbacking a team closer to full strength. And he gets to play against the soft and squishy and friendly Kansas City defense. So, Mallory, do you think? A more favorable defensive matchup, certainly, for the start here, for Jordan Love. One of the worst defenses in the league overall, obviously, the worst run defense.

So I think that's the other thing. Like the Packers don't need to ask Jordan Love to do too much here. They can rely heavily, heavily, heavily on Aaron Jones and A.J. Dillon and just run the ball. We should also mention, of course, that Blake Bork, Bortles. The boat coming into town right from the golf course, right, Nora? Yeah. On Wednesday, the Packers called Bortles, asked him to fly to Green Bay to sign with

their practice squad. The intention is they'll elevate him to the 53 on Sunday and he can be the backup. This is per Mark Long of the AP who covers the Jaguars and football in Florida in general. When Bortles got this call, he's even through seven holes of golf, but was about to double bogey the eighth hole. And then he gets the call. And I don't know. That was just, Mark Long tweeted this.

He didn't follow up on it. It is my deep hope that Bortals just left. And he was like, put me down for par, walks off the course, flies to Green Bay. Anything to avoid the double bogey there, you know? Amen. I've never played a round of golf in my entire life. Do you, so it sounds like Mallory, you think that Jordan Love's got a reasonable shot here. which frankly, given that we just saw the chiefs barely pull it out against the Giants, I kind of do too.

I honestly don't see any reason why the Packers can't still not only compete in, but win this game. Yeah, I don't either. A lot of that has to do with the Chiefs. But also, Rogers has been very good this year, but he has not been 2020 MVP Rogers. It's funny, I think the trajectory of the Packers were on before this was a really good one. They hadn't lost since week one. Rogers had been, you know, good, not MVP level, but in ways where you expected him to improve,

his play from a clean pocket, particularly, has been among the league's best, while his play under pressure has been actually kind of shaky. That's not normally what you see with Rogers, right? And given that plays from a clean pocket are much more stable than play under pressure, you kind of feel like, okay, that regresses to the mean positively a little bit.

they get those key players back. They get Bakhtiari back. They might get Jair Alexander back later in the season. Once they're firing at full strength late in the year, this is a really, really scary team. I think they still are, but this is obviously a huge wrench in that, just because right at the point where you're starting to get healthy

and get your guys back, you have this massive issue. And coming off the big win, too, against Arizona, right? Like, that's the kind of win you want to ride the crest of that, seven and one. looking like one of the best teams in the NFC. Right. But I still think against the Chiefs,

they should be in the game. I think Lefleur in particular has shown just such an ability as a coach to be able to cover up. For who they're missing or who the weak spots are, at some point something's got to give, but they do get all of those key players back. So we'll have to see who is actually active for the game

in terms of guys like Bocteri still having their status up in the air. but they've got a chance here going forward is, I think, what's a little bit easier. All right. Should we move on? Let's do it. Let's talk about O'Dell. Oh, boy.

Junior or senior? Both. Both a part of the story. All right. So just in case anybody missed this, OBJ missed practice Wednesday and was excused again today. that's Thursday with a quote shoulder slash non-injury-related personal matter designation. The non-injury-related personal matter seems to be the fact that his father posted an Instagram video with, they're not highlights, but a low light reel of Baker Mayfield not finding Odell when he's allegedly open.

Yesterday, Kevin Stafansky said that Beckham's representatives and general manager Andrew Barry are, quote, discussing a lot of things. That doesn't sound great. And I think ultimately we're waiting to see if he gets released, which feels very much in play at this point. It is a complicated financial thing for the Browns because at this point, if Beckham gets released, he's exposed to waivers, if he isn't picked up on waivers. they still owe him the rest of his salary and it doesn't offset against whatever anybody else gives him if someone might pick him up as a free agent if he does clear waivers.

Beckham is under contract for two more seasons at 13.7 million a year but doesn't have any guaranteed money left beyond this season. So it's not really a question going forward, but is a question of whether or not they're willing to just sort of give him up for nothing at this point because clearly a deal did not get done by the trade deadline. But the relationship between Beckham and Mayfield and the Browns just seems like it's pretty much run its course. Right. Yeah. I mean, it, I think has not gone the way anyone anticipated any of the people who are directly involved in it or any people who watch football. You know, it seemed like when they acquired Odell and he joined the Browns that this was going to be this magical pairing with Odell and Baker that took the Browns offense to the next level. And it just hasn't happened.

And not only has it not happened, you know, this has been the worst year yet. So this is just a really strange sequence of events. You know, it's interesting that you said anyone who's been under Iraq because I'll be honest with you. I had a moment yesterday where I started seeing tweets about this and I was like, what is going on? I actually had to work to like the most engineer the particulars in this case because, you know, the news that he had been excused from practice. and then the news that he was prepared to practice. And then, okay, everyone's talking about O'Dell Sr's video. And then there's a lot of chatter about the tweets.

So the tweets from other very famous people, you know, LeBron James, ever heard of them, Dame, John Morant, free OBJs, free O'Dell, you know, these are like trending hashtags and high-profile tweets. This is not a good situation and not a tenable one for Cleveland and O'Dell. I have I have kind of two main questions here. I guess three. The third is going to be, well, where might he end up, right? But the two before that are how even understanding that there were discussions and that there was not the right pairing and not the market, how did how did Cleveland fail to try to

just make something happen here on the trade deadline. Like the fact that this is happening immediately in the wake, again, even with the reports and our understanding that they did attempt to make a deal and it didn't happen, that really compounds the sort of surreal heightened nature of this story because it's just immediately in the wake of the deadline when you would expect something to happen if the fit is not working, right? And then more broadly and more crucially, like, what went wrong here? You know, why didn't this work?

So if we take those three questions in order quickly, we'll start with the deadline. Obviously, if they had been able to make a deal, it would have been a much better cap situation for them. They could have netted some return, however small. I think the biggest factor there ultimately is just avoiding this public theater that is now playing out where everybody is being asked about this. Dufansky, Baker, everybody has to talk about it and try to explain. and how they're feeling about it and what went wrong and what's going to happen moving forward. It's the kind of like toxic situation that can really fester

inside of a clubhouse if it's left underdress. And so that's at least right now, I mean, things can evolve quickly in the NFL, but at least right now it does not feel like, well, let's wait it out. Let's see if, you know, with a few conversations, things improve, we can get to the end of the season. Like, that doesn't feel viable. So I'm curious what your read is on the absence of a deadline deal.

and do they just wait too long to try? Was there just not enough time? Or was there really the complete dearth of any sort of viable market? You know, it doesn't seem like there was a complete dearth of it, right? Because there were reports that the Saints were interested but couldn't get it done. That's probably a money thing more than anything else. Although, again, Cleveland will be on the hook for his salary if they release him and he doesn't get picked up on waiver. so you wonder why they wouldn't be willing to just say, hey, sweeten the deal with the

pick just a little bit and we'll still pay it if you can't. I don't understand why they didn't get something done. It does seem like there is, I don't fully feel like I have clarity on kind of how bad things were behind the scenes. There have been some reports, I believe, from Albert Breyer at Sports Illustrated, and I know I saw a couple others I'm spacing on exactly where right now, that this came as a pretty big surprise to people in the organization. It was not as though O'Dell was part of drama behind the scenes really before this. Baker on Wednesday, you know, it's a press conference statement. So take it

with a grain of salt. But he said that he wasn't hurt, but he was surprised. And he thought that they were in a good place together. They had traveled to work out with each other in in off seasons. And And there was at least enough coming out yesterday that was saying, this hadn't been like a big blowup disaster day in and day out behind the scenes. That said, Baker also said that he had not spoken to Odell since the video. That doesn't seem like something that would happen in a super healthy relationship. I believe Stifansky also said that they hadn't connected. And Odell doesn't really get the benefit of the doubt with drama anymore, right? Beyond that, though, I think the thing that's sort of tough to wrap our heads around just because we think, oh, my gosh, OBJ, he's not an elite receiver.

He's attractive to a team that could really, really use another capable professional player there. But he's not Odell Beckham in the sense that we think of it, right? He actually has been targeted in Cleveland. Odell has six or more targets in four out of six games that he's played this year. He and Baker clearly do not work well together. I think there's enough evidence to say that. But in his career with the Browns, he's only, I went back and looked through his game logs. He's had two big games there the entire time.

He, you know, went off for 161 yards against the Jets in his second game there in 2019. And then last year, he had the three touchdown game against the Cowboys. That's it. those are the only two games where they've gotten like a, this is why we went and got Odell performance out of him. I think the thing that's most striking to me is that since he got to Cleveland, he ranks 109th among all receivers in yards per catch. And that's important to me because the Browns are just desperate for a vertical threat right now.

Right? Like they just saw the Cardinals and then the Steelers walk extra guys up to the line, sell out to stop the run game. and say to Baker, basically, like, beat us over the top if you can. Baker has not been doing that. I've got to imagine he would like to. That doesn't necessarily mean he can. He can do that effectively.

But I don't think of Baker Mayfield as someone who's unwilling to take a shot, right? But he does not have a connection with Odell or really with anyone right now in their receiving group where they're taking advantage of the deep holes that are open. in the passing game the way that they're being defended. And I think at this point, it's been so long that I don't really feel comfortable saying anymore. Like, come on, it's Odell. He's so talented.

Just wait for them to figure it out. I think it's run its course. So the deep threat point is really interesting. Our cherished colleague, Stephen Ruiz, wrote an excellent column on this. story on Odell, on the Browns. Available for you to read right now on the ringer.com. What a great website. Check it out. Great website.

One of the things that Stephen looked at in the piece and one of the things that he pointed to because he, like the rest of us, is saying, well, what actually went wrong here? Like, why did this not work the way that everyone thought it not only could, but would? And one of the interesting elements that he assessed was whether Odellant and Baker, to that point, just making are ultimately not a match in terms of the style of receiver and route

runner that Odell is and where Baker excels and fails to excel as an accurate passer. There's another nugget in Ruiz's piece that I thought was really telling. I'll just read a couple sentences here. Since 2019, 72 wide receivers have been targeted at least 100 times. Only three have seen a lower rate of catchable passes than B. Beckham in that span per sports info solutions. That's fairly damning. To the point about Odell's elite status, I would encourage everybody to listen to this week's

Wednesday ringer NFL show that Nora already mentioned at the top of our episode because James and Ryan and Jason also discussed the Odell story, which was breaking in real time as they were recording. And I found I found the discussion fascinating, in part because it turned into a real debate. James was saying that when he watches the tape, and this is obviously I'm just paraphrasing this is a snapshot of the conversation, please go listen to their pod for the full nuance, that he still sees the same Odell. And that the coaches, even more so than Baker, that the coaches in the scheme, James was saying, are at fault for failing to fully implement and prioritize the incorporation of Odell into that offense.

And then there was a lot of back and forth and a lot of debate trying to pin down what the cause of this disconnect between Odell and Baker and Odell and this offense have been. I think it's really notable that across pods, across discussions, frankly, across seasons now at this point. I mean, as we know, it's something that Stefanski talked about needing to get to the bottom of, right?

Needing to look into and needing to solve. Like, this has been an ongoing source of befuddlement for the wider football world in addition to Cleveland. And I just think that's really, that's really telling that there's not actually one clear answer to the question or one clear thing to point to for why this hasn't worked. But the thing that is clear is that it hasn't.

Do they think they can repair it or do they think that that is not possible? And if it's not possible and we're looking forward, then what does that mean for Cleveland's offense, if anything? And what might it mean for Odell and the rest of his career? Like, are there landing spots? You know, you mentioned New Orleans as a team that had been in the rumor mill for and the news reports for possible trade discussions and a trade landing spot. Michael Thomas not going to be playing this year, right? We're going to talk about the Saints more in a couple minutes, but we know that now. Is New Orleans the right spot for O'Dell ultimately?

How about Baltimore? How about the Chargers? You know, there are a handful of teams that would make sense. Is there one that you think is the right fit? I think New Orleans is the most likely just because they really, really, really need a receiver. I would love to see, I would love to see the Chargers, ironically, expand their vertical passing game. There's something sort of tempting about that.

But again, I think I'm operating based off sort of old impressions of Odell. I think New Orleans is probably the one that I like the best. I like the idea of Sean Payton working on sort of how to make that a better fit. I mean, again, just what you said about the low rate of catchable passes that Beckham has seen in Cleveland, I think really speaks to just. how there's something that's always been off about that relationship. Because look, Baker Mayfield,

for all of his flaws, he is an accurate quarterback, right? Like, that's not what you should. That's not what should really be what ails you here. But the fact that it is just tells me that ultimately, New Orleans is the one that I would pick.

What I would pick above any particular destination here is just like, let's get this guy a change of scenery. because I think this has run it. I think it's just run its course in Cleveland. I just don't think it. I don't think it works. I don't think it works. I think that the only thing that maybe makes New Orleans less of a good fit,

given everything that we've just discussed, is the quarterback situation. The Trevor Simeon of it all. Currently unfolding in New Orleans. What's our next news item? Let's talk about it. All right. So the Saints, unfortunately, will be without both James Winston, who tore his ACL on Sunday and Michael Thomas.

for the year, Thomas announced Wednesday that he will be out after having a setback in the ankle injury that he's been rehabbing. Sean Payton said earlier this week that they are not looking at other quarterbacks. So that means that the Saints will be rolling with touchdown Trev and or Tayson Hill who should be coming back after being out in the concussion protocol. Back at practice. worth mentioning. Not only could the Saints really use a quarterback right now, they could really use a tight end, which makes the, the Taysam Hill of it all a little bit extra confusing there. But yeah, I mean, look, New Orleans has a really good track record with spelling themselves through stretches when, you know, Breeze had been injured. They went undefeated with Teddy Bridgewater

for four games in 2019. They won three straight and I think went three and one overall with Hill starting in 2020. Obviously they beat Tom Brady with Simeon last week. The Brady win, the win over the bucks I think is the most impressive.

I, in a lot of ways, really, really trust this team with defense turnovers to be able to cobble that together even while working with a backup quarterback, even being as thin at receiver and as I said, tight end, as they are right now.

They're 5 and 2 with the 31st ranked passing offense, averaging 181 passing yards per game already. So it's not as though they're operating from this high flying place and they could absolutely, you know, fall down to the ground here. My kind of concern is just later down the road, right? Because the difference in those other seasons was that Breeze was eventually going to come back. It is hard for me to see a major playoff push. quarterbacked by Trevor Simeon or Tayson Hill.

But who am I to doubt, Sean Payton? What about a playoff push quarterbacked by Phil Rivers, who, you know, has made it known this week that despite not having heard from the Saints, he would take the call, Nora. What do you think? I would love it. I would love anything that brings Phil Rivers into our lives. It did seem as though we were actually joking on the Tuesday pod.

that was a report from wonderful L.A. Times reporter Sam Farmer. The wording of the tweet. Yes, I love this. Philip Rivers tells me he hasn't heard from the Saints, but would listen. Kind of think Phil Rivers picked up the phone. I love that from Phil. I love everything that we got from Phil Rivers. Phil Rivers has never disappointed me.

Do you go Phil or Philip? Just however the spirit moves me in a given moment. The mood strikes. Yeah. It sounds like Sean Payton is. is saying no to that, which is disappointing. Were you surprised that I'm not sure it's a bad football decision? At the deadline?

You know, Phil River's speculation aside, the Saints could have attempted to acquire a quarterback this week at the deadline. I liked the idea of them making a move for Teddy Bridgewater. You know, Denver, obviously, a seller trading Von Miller, ever heard of them. Teddy, of course, knows the Saints' offense and system well. Thought that would have been an interesting thing to do. Obviously, that didn't happen. Nothing happened.

And Peyton, as you noted, has said, we're good, which I'm a little surprised by. Were I the coach of the New Orleans Saints with all of my limitations, I think Teddy Bridgewater would have made all of the sense in the world. I also, Tara Taylor is healthy now, would have liked to see them explore that. That said, I think Sean Payton is just. kind of like a mad scientist. I don't think he's ever seen a quarterback. He didn't think that he could cobble together some way to win when the defense gets two turnovers with. And I think that's just how they want to roll. You know, we, we had a really fun mailbag question a couple episodes ago about

if, you know, a thought experiment where if every team had backup quarterbacks, who would be best positioned to win the Super Bowl? Now, again, the key there was if every team was playing in that situation. But I pick the Saints, actually mostly because of Taysam Hill, less so touchdown Trev, with apologies to the Ringers' Northwestern contingent, you know, a lot of

big touchdown Trev heads here at the Ringer. And so I agree, I think, that the Saints are certainly well equipped to stitch this together. I thought that you and Kevin and Ben had a really great chat on the Sunday night

ringer NFL show episode, about the coaching staff and where this coaching staff ranks among the best in the league. And part of that, of course, is being able to adapt. And also, as you noted, it's not like this passing attack had exactly been lighting it up, especially if you remove week one from the equation, you know?

Right. But on the whole, like, Winston had not been turning the ball over this year, which is huge progress and notable progress. Obviously, the interceptions. had been a, you know, in essence, one to one with touchdowns for him famously. So the fact that he had improved his touchdown to interception ratio so heavily was a great sign. But, you know, he had been completing 59% of his passes. The Saints have PFF's 27th ranked passing offense to this point.

Their 20th in offensive DVOA. Obviously, they're very well positioned in the run game with Alvin Comera. And, of course, they acquired Mark Ingram via trade a few days ago. so they're shoring up the ground game as well and can lean on that more fully. I'm curious to know whether you think it's going to be touchdown Trev or Tasem Hill. Moving forward, is it going to be a time share? How do you see that shaking out, again, assuming health, you know, now that Hill is back at practice from the concussion? I think my assumption is that they will go to Hill just because that seemed to be Sean Payton's inclination a lot of the time.

Yeah, he's enamored. He's started games. Yeah, it's got a little football crush, it seems. And I think, look, he's started games and really for them before, right? And the only reason that he wasn't playing is because he wasn't healthy. So now I wouldn't rule out Tassum struggling. And then maybe they make a switch. Maybe they try to sort of platoon it and get really crazy.

But, yeah, my guess would be Tysm. And then Drew Brees and Phil Rivers. come out of retirement simultaneously just in time for the current six-seed New Orleans Saints to make a playoff run. What do you think? So, Mallory, are you saying that there's a quarterback controversy in New Orleans? Phil Rivers-Rue-Bree's quarterback controversy? All right.

Excellent. I can't wait to watch that unfold. Last thing we're going to touch on here, this will be a quick one. So Jake Lasers reported that Kyler sprained his left ankle on the second. to last play against the Packers last Thursday and would be out one to three weeks. It's seeming so far like it's more likely to be on the shorter end of that. So Kyler is not going to practice at all this week. That would mean that if he's able to play on Sunday, he'll have had eight full days of rest.

I guess he's getting a lot of treatment, but just not doing anything that's requiring him to do anything active. on the ankle, both he and Cliff Kingsbury said that they felt like he would be ready to go, just taking mental reps at this point, going through the motions, but not actually practicing. My feeling on this is clearly he's not going to be out for a long time, which is good. Just don't push him, you know? Yes. Don't push Kyler Murray. He's really, really important.

Strong agree on don't push Kyler. Strong agree. don't push Kyler. Like the Cardinals are 7 and 1. As are the Rams now, right? Of course, in the NFC US. Right. This is, I think, a classic,

two things can be true at one situation here. On the one hand, it is true and irrefutable that the Cardinals are going to be a completely different football team without Kyler Murray if he is not able to play. If Cole McCoy. Is, in fact, playing against the Niners.

I think it's interesting that the comments from Kyler and Cliff as you're as you're indicating really seem to be pointing toward him playing or at least striving to play. You know if he

misses anytime, certainly if he winds up missing three weeks and it's on the longer end of that spectrum and closer to a month of football, that's a big, big deal for an Arizona team that is so, you know, we've talked about this all season long.

so hugely dependent. And this is a good football team in general, to be clear, but the offense hums and hits its frequency because of Kyler's magic and what he unlocks. He's leading the league in big time throws. He's tied for a third on PFF's pass rating. He's completing 73% of his passes. They won't be the same team without him.

However, the other thing that's true is, as you said, that it is not wise. It's not sound. It's not sensible to rush him. We're talking about an ankle injury. You know, a left ankle sprain. Ankle health, like, it just, he needs the time. He needs the time to heal and get right before he's back out there.

And that's for a couple reasons. One, it's just, frankly, not worth the risk of exacerbating or aggravating the injury. And then having him miss more time than what we're talking about right now. Like, that would be disastrous. But also, it's so central to the way he's. plays, like the ability to buy time, the ability to buy time and create. It's a huge elemental facet of the way he plays quarterback. And if that is jeopardized by his ankle health, then it's, it's already not worth rushing him and putting him out there. But it's,

it's certainly not, if he's not even going to be able to play the way that he would, and again, the number one priority no matter what is his long-term health. Yeah, really interesting stat from the athletic. A career high, 28.1% of Kyler's throws have come after three seconds have elapsed. He's completed 48 such passes for 879

yards at 18.3 yards per completion. Only Lamar Jackson has completed more passes after three seconds or longer. Obviously, we've spoken at length about how impressed we've been with what the Ravens have done to improve their downfield passing attack this year.

My two things that can be true at the same time are that if this were the Super Bowl, even though that is true, even though Kyler is just magical in those circumstances, Kyler with 80% ankle health or, you know, take the exact percentage with a grain of salt. But Kyler with slightly limited mobility is still a really, really, really good quarterback. He's completing 73% of his passes. That is, I think, 8.3% above expectation, according to next gen stats, that's second in the league to Russell Wilson. So he is, even though his mobility is such a big part of how he plays quarterback, Kyler's been an incredible pure passer. Yes, this season. So I think if it were just one game,

Kyler having to stay a little bit more in the pocket with how good their defense has been this year, I'm not that worried about the Cardinals. What I worry about is if there's any risk of re-injury bringing him back this week as opposed to next week or like, you know, substantially greater risk of re-injury or aggravation or slowing down the timeline. Just don't do it. Just don't do it. Agreed. All right.

A lot of news. I think we've gotten through what we need to get through. Mallory. This has actually been very helpful. I feel sort of like I've experienced catharsis talking about all of this with you. I'm so glad. Wonderful. This has been the Ringer NFL show.

I am Nora Preciati. As always, she is Mallory Rubin. Ben Solac, Stephen Ruiz, and Kaelin Jones will be coming up next on this feed, previewing the week nine. Week nine. It's already week nine games this Friday. I will be back Sunday night with Kevin Clark, Solac, and Ruiz to break down all of the week nine action. Mallory will be back on the ringerverse feed Monday with Joanna Robinson to discuss Marvel's newest movie Eternals. We will be back next Thursday. Our thanks go to production assistant Isaiah Blakely for production on this episode. and to Arjuna Ramgapal for additional production supervision.